Re: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes

2006-05-02 Thread John Thomas
and larger, I can't speak for the smaller towns. John -Original Message- From: chris cooper [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 10:00 AM To: ''WISPA General List'' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes Why not just buy the cards, boards

Re: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes

2006-05-02 Thread David Peterson
with populationd of 25,000 and larger, I can't speak for the smaller towns. John -Original Message- From: chris cooper [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 10:00 AM To: ''WISPA General List'' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes

Re: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes

2006-04-27 Thread Peter R.
Free Municipal Wi-Fi Service Boosts Economic Development in the City of St. Cloud, FL at http://www.digitalcityexpo.com/agenda.htm -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives:

RE: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes

2006-04-27 Thread Charles Wu
: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Peter R. Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 8:03 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes Free Municipal Wi-Fi Service Boosts Economic Development in the City of St. Cloud, FL at http

RE: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes

2006-04-26 Thread Brad Larson
] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes What is really funny is that they used Hewlett Packard. Why not Cisco, Alvarion, Tranzeo. These are some of the people who are suppose to know what they are doing. BTW I am a certified HP Computer and printer tech. but still I think they know what they are doing

RE: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes

2006-04-26 Thread Brad Larson
for tax payers, and serves the public well then I'll be impressed. Brad -Original Message- From: John J. Thomas [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 10:03 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes -Original Message- From

Re: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes

2006-04-26 Thread Rudolph Worrell
the public well then I'll be impressed. Brad -Original Message- From: John J. Thomas [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 10:03 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes -Original Message

Re: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes

2006-04-25 Thread Tom DeReggi
Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Matt Liotta [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 10:36 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes I'll go ahead and predict that San

Re: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes

2006-04-25 Thread George
Travis Johnson wrote: You guys are all missing the point. If they contract with the local WISP, they don't get to create new jobs for the muni... instead, they are just helping a local business grow with local tax money. Welcome to politics in the wireless arena. :( Travis Microserv

Re: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes

2006-04-25 Thread George
Here in Atlanta you can't use 2.4 unless it is indoors. In fact, you have to get out 90+ miles before the noise floor drops off enough to even think about it. -Matt Need I say more. George -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe:

Re: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes

2006-04-25 Thread George
Chris cooper wrote: The SR9 cards might be interesting for this app... Probably not much help Chris. As you and every wisp who has deployed more than a few AP's in urban density knows, there is not enough spectrum available in all the unlicensed bands combined to service the vast population

Re: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes

2006-04-25 Thread Carl A Jeptha
What is really funny is that they used Hewlett Packard. Why not Cisco, Alvarion, Tranzeo. These are some of the people who are suppose to know what they are doing. BTW I am a certified HP Computer and printer tech. but still I think they know what they are doing. KICKBACK You have a Good Day

Re: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes

2006-04-25 Thread Bob Moldashel
3500 registered users using a network that costs $400K per year to maintain!!! That's $114 per subscriber! Why not just pay to give them DSL! LOL -- Bob Moldashel Lakeland Communications, Inc. Broadband Deployment Group 1350 Lincoln Avenue Holbrook, New York 11741 USA 800-479-9195 Toll

Re: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes

2006-04-25 Thread Tom DeReggi
1:27 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes A Tropos unit has a 1W transmitter, is capable of being powered via PoE or via AC delivered through standard outlets as well as a variety of photo-cell taps including high-voltage ones. When powered with AC, it is capable

Re: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes

2006-04-25 Thread Peter R.
Bob Moldashel wrote: 3500 registered users using a network that costs $400K per year to maintain!!! That's $114 per subscriber! Why not just pay to give them DSL! LOL You laugh, but there are ISPs with less than 50 broadband customers. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

RE: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes

2006-04-25 Thread Dustin Jurman
That's 114 a year, it's 9.50 a sub on a monthly rate. DSJ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Peter R. Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 8:57 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes Bob Moldashel

Re: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes

2006-04-25 Thread John J. Thomas
-Original Message- From: George [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 09:02 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes John J. Thomas wrote: inline... First off, the WISPs have to have the guts to talk to the city. Many

Re: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes

2006-04-25 Thread John J. Thomas
with populationd of 25,000 and larger, I can't speak for the smaller towns. John -Original Message- From: chris cooper [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 10:00 AM To: ''WISPA General List'' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes Why not just buy

Re: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes

2006-04-25 Thread John J. Thomas
So, in Atlanta, the trees are so dense that a 5 GHz radio putting out 26 dBm into a 7.5 dB omni can't go 2500 feet? John -Original Message- From: Matt Liotta [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 10:53 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi

Re: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes

2006-04-25 Thread Brian Whigham
Bob, It's $9.50 per month per user, after only 50 days of evangelizing. Not even the SBCs of the world are selling it for that. And as soon as grandma Jones and Bob down the street figure out what's going on, they'll sign up, too. So it will only be $4.16/mo. when they hit the 8,000 mark.

Re: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes

2006-04-25 Thread Tom DeReggi
: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 5:13 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes Travis Johnson wrote: You guys are all missing the point. If they contract with the local WISP, they don't get to create new jobs for the muni... instead, they are just helping a local business grow

Re: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes

2006-04-25 Thread Brian Whigham
George, Few people care about socialistic programs so long as their pockets are affected in a positive way. Our government is not purely capitalistic, and was never designed to be. Plus, access has become a commodity and a utility. It's no surprise to me that governments try to regulate

Re: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes

2006-04-25 Thread Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181
: Re: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes Bob, It's $9.50 per month per user, after only 50 days of evangelizing. Not even the SBCs of the world are selling it for that. And as soon as grandma Jones and Bob down the street figure out what's going on, they'll sign up, too. So

RE: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes

2006-04-24 Thread chris cooper
$173K per mile build out cost? Somebody just bought a new boat.. c -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 10:08 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes

Re: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes

2006-04-24 Thread Matt Liotta
I'll go ahead and predict that San Francisco will be a disaster. -Matt Jack Unger wrote: Unfortunately, this may be one of the first of many such muni problems that I've been forcasting for years. Muni wireless can be done correctly and WISPs (IMHO) should always try (when allowed) to play a

Re: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes

2006-04-24 Thread George
I am doubting that wisps can actually accomadate the muni in most situations, unless they are closely involved with the design of the network, Talking spectrum use here. As for going along with free muni wifi, How is a wisp going to operate if a muni is offering for free or at cut rate

Re: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes

2006-04-24 Thread John J. Thomas
, April 24, 2006 07:26 AM To: ''WISPA General List'' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes $173K per mile build out cost? Somebody just bought a new boat.. c -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George Sent: Monday

Re: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes

2006-04-24 Thread John J. Thomas
You mean it's not already :-) John -Original Message- From: Matt Liotta [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 07:36 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes I'll go ahead and predict that San Francisco

Re: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes

2006-04-24 Thread Jack Unger
George, Just a few brief responses and ideas (I'm getting ready to go flying across the country again). 1. Design - Yes, local WISPs must be allowed to participate in the network design for the reason you mention. Spectrum must be managed to avoid both interfering with the WISPs operation

RE: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes

2006-04-24 Thread Brian Webster
-Fi City Sees Startup Woes Unfortunately, this may be one of the first of many such muni problems that I've been forcasting for years. Muni wireless can be done correctly and WISPs (IMHO) should always try (when allowed) to play a positive role in proper network design and operation however most

Re: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes

2006-04-24 Thread Joe Laura
General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 10:10 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes Jack, I hate to say it but didn't we say I told you so There is just not enough spectrum to design networks like this to work with anything but dedicated CPE

Re: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes

2006-04-24 Thread John J. Thomas
inline... -Original Message- From: George [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 07:40 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes I am doubting that wisps can actually accomadate the muni in most situations, unless

Re: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes

2006-04-24 Thread Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181
roflol The city is selling signal boosters (I read that as amps) to anyone that wants them for $170? Oh man, this deployment is gonna come CRASHING down. Hard. It's really too bad these people are too ignorant, stubborn or just plain stupid to call any of us in to help. sigh Marlon

Re: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes

2006-04-24 Thread George
John J. Thomas wrote: inline... First off, the WISPs have to have the guts to talk to the city. Many simply refuse to do so, and are probably going to get the Muni WiFi shoved down their throats. I don't want to turn this into a battle of ideals. But how many local wisps have been

Re: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes

2006-04-24 Thread Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181
24, 2006 7:40 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes I am doubting that wisps can actually accomadate the muni in most situations, unless they are closely involved with the design of the network, Talking spectrum use here. As for going along with free muni wifi, How

Re: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes

2006-04-24 Thread Matt Liotta
No, they are selling higher powered CPE devices that act as a bridge connecting to the muni network and then act as a local AP to help lower powered laptops effectively use the service. -Matt Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote: roflol The city is selling signal boosters (I read that as

Re: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes

2006-04-24 Thread Travis Johnson
, April 24, 2006 7:40 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes I am doubting that wisps can actually accomadate the muni in most situations, unless they are closely involved with the design of the network, Talking spectrum use here. As for going along with free muni wifi

Re: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes

2006-04-24 Thread Jeffrey Thomas
General List'' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes $173K per mile build out cost? Somebody just bought a new boat.. c -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 10:08 AM To: WISPA

Re: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes

2006-04-24 Thread Dawn DiPietro
All, http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/newsroom/press/2005/050831a.html As part of the HP Metro-scale Wi-Fi solution, HP forged an alliance with Tropos Networks and Aptilo Networks to help large communities of all kinds - cities, government agencies, large medical center and universities -

RE: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes

2006-04-24 Thread chris cooper
General List'' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes $173K per mile build out cost? Somebody just bought a new boat.. c -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 10:08 AM

Re: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes

2006-04-24 Thread Jack Unger
Dawn, Thanks for posting the St. Cloud PepLink and HP info. Using standard CPE (PePLink)is very good but using Tropos nodes is very, very bad. Very bad because they only have one single 2.4 GHz radio so after 2 or 3 hops, all the throughput capability is gone not to mention that the

Re: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes

2006-04-24 Thread Matt Liotta
In recent post I explained that here in Atlanta you can only use a single 2.4 channel because of the noise floor. How is a multi-band mesh node going to work? Maybe there is a reason the big muni projects keep selecting Tropos. -Matt Jack Unger wrote: Dawn, Thanks for posting the St.

RE: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes

2006-04-24 Thread Brian Webster
General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes George, Unfortunately, every time that the public hears about problems with a wifi network (muni or otherwise) it is going to reflect badly on all of us. After reading the article, it is pretty clear that the writer picked out

Re: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes

2006-04-24 Thread Jack Unger
To: ''WISPA General List'' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes $173K per mile build out cost? Somebody just bought a new boat.. c -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006

RE: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes

2006-04-24 Thread Brian Webster
http://www.wirelessmapping.com -Original Message- From: Jack Unger [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 1:22 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes Dawn, Thanks for posting the St. Cloud PepLink and HP info. Using

Re: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes

2006-04-24 Thread Jack Unger
Matt, A multi-band mesh node does the backhaul on 5 GHz (sometimes with more than one 5 GHz radio). This reduces (but certainly doesn't eliminate) the 2.4 GHz self-interference and other-network-interference level. The reason the big muni projects often select Tropos is that Tropos has the

Re: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes

2006-04-24 Thread Matt Liotta
Jack Unger wrote: A multi-band mesh node does the backhaul on 5 GHz (sometimes with more than one 5 GHz radio). This reduces (but certainly doesn't eliminate) the 2.4 GHz self-interference and other-network-interference level. You can't use 5 Ghz to go through trees here in Atlanta, so that

Re: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes

2006-04-24 Thread Joe Laura
intermapper will be a plus. Joe - Original Message - From: Brian Webster [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 12:44 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes HP likes to design these Tropos networks by never having

Re: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes

2006-04-24 Thread Matt Liotta
List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes Dawn, Thanks for posting the St. Cloud PepLink and HP info. Using standard CPE (PePLink)is very good but using Tropos nodes is very, very bad. Very bad because they only have one single 2.4 GHz radio so after 2 or 3 hops, all

Re: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes

2006-04-24 Thread Jack Unger
Then the 5 GHz backhaul network must have antennas that are raised above the trees. Another option is to backhaul with city-owned fiber. Backhauling on 900 MHz is a possible third option. All it takes is rf knowledge, creativity, and cooperation. jack

Re: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes

2006-04-24 Thread Jack Unger
] Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 1:22 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes Dawn, Thanks for posting the St. Cloud PepLink and HP info. Using standard CPE (PePLink)is very good but using Tropos nodes is very, very bad. Very bad because they only have

Re: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes

2006-04-24 Thread Matt Liotta
How do you raise the antennas above the trees without building really tall poles? Trees around here are 60-70ft. City-owned fiber only exists in places with enough density that there aren't any trees to begin with. Residential areas generally have lots of trees and no reason for fiber runs.

Re: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes

2006-04-24 Thread Jack Unger
OK Matt, being a creative person, you can then suggest the use of DSL for the backhaul... jack Matt Liotta wrote: How do you raise the antennas above the trees without building really tall poles? Trees around here are 60-70ft. City-owned fiber only exists in places with

RE: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes

2006-04-24 Thread chris cooper
The SR9 cards might be interesting for this app... chris -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jack Unger Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 2:39 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes OK Matt, being

Re: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes

2006-04-24 Thread Matt Liotta
Jack Unger wrote: 1. The attenuation between 2.4 GHz nodes is not enough to prevent each node from hearing multiple other nodes as noise (thus more packet retransmissions and more reduced throughtput). This requires understanding link budgets, signal-to-noise ratios, and receiver threshold

Re: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes

2006-04-24 Thread Dawn DiPietro
Jack, Not a problem. This discussion needed the information and no one else posted it. I have been reading up on this network since Ken went to the MuniWireless Show in Atlanta. Unfortunately some of the articles I read are no longer available. Regards, Dawn DiPietro Jack Unger wrote:

Re: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes

2006-04-24 Thread Matt Liotta
To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes Then there are companies like airmatrix that charge less than 1k per node. The key with mesh is density, and many mesh startup's fail because they Underbuild their networks. - Jeff On 4/24/06 7:53 AM, John J. Thomas

Re: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes

2006-04-24 Thread Jeffrey Thomas
To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes Then there are companies like airmatrix that charge less than 1k per node. The key with mesh is density, and many mesh startup's fail because they Underbuild their networks. - Jeff On 4/24/06 7:53 AM

Re: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes

2006-04-24 Thread Jack Unger
Matt Liotta wrote: Jack Unger wrote: 1. The attenuation between 2.4 GHz nodes is not enough to prevent each node from hearing multiple other nodes as noise (thus more packet retransmissions and more reduced throughtput). This requires understanding link budgets, signal-to-noise ratios, and

Re: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes

2006-04-24 Thread Tom DeReggi
Broadband - Original Message - From: Brian Webster [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 11:10 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes Jack, I hate to say it but didn't we say I told you so There is just