RE: [ZION] Christlike Love and Devoted Service
That one I'll give you.. -Original Message- From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 10:45 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [ZION] Christlike Love and Devoted Service What is the greater feat, feeding the starving of India, or putting up with John W. Redelfs? Now there is a challenging question. lol Perhaps my wife is the most Christlike woman on earth. grin --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // /// // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Love is...
One of my favorites too, ambiguous though it may be, amiguous as love is. -Original Message- From: Jim Cobabe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 10:46 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [ZION] Love is... One of my favorite characterizations of love is not scriptural or doctrinal, but poetic. Let me not to the marriage of true minds Admit impediments. Love is not love Which alters when it alteration finds, Or bends with the remover to remove: O no! it is an ever-fixed mark That looks on tempests and is never shaken; It is the star to every wandering bark, Whose worth's unknown, although his height be taken. Love's not Time's fool, though rosy lips and cheeks Within his bending sickle's compass come: Love alters not with his brief hours and weeks, But bears it out even to the edge of doom. If this be error and upon me proved, I never writ, nor no man ever loved. -- William Shakespeare // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // /// // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Official Doctrine #1
Doubt she'll need much preaching to. But, the hoops, yes, and the 100 year wait, unless she has a relative to do the work for her. Ron -Original Message- From: George Cobabe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 11:24 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ZION] Official Doctrine #1 Absolutely true, but she will still need a teacher. She will still have to listen to the missionaries and accept the truth. Short cuts? Maybe, but she will still have to go through the hoops. George - Original Message - From: Ron Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 8:09 PM Subject: RE: [ZION] Official Doctrine #1 Gary: Thank you very much. I couldn't have said it better myself. But I'll add one thing: I have a hunch that in the final analysis her life-long goodness renders her doctrinal deficenies if not meanignless then very surmountable. But that's just one man's opinion. Ron -Original Message- From: Gerald Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 9:34 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [ZION] Official Doctrine #1 The poorest widows in the USA that I've known are still much more comfortable than the average middle class person in Calcutta! Mother Theresa came from a decent, middle class family, but forsake it all to work with the poor. She risked all manner of diseases (Typhoid, Tetanus, Malaria, Diphtheria, Yellow Fever, etc) as she went amongst the poorest in the city to aid them. You cannot imagine what true poverty is like, until you've gone to a truly poor country and spent time with the peoples there. The widow who gives her mite, is a righteous person, but she still hasn't given all of her time, talents, and energy to serve. And remember it was Christ who said that when we have done it unto one of the least of these, we've done it unto him. K'aya K'ama, Gerald (Gary) Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html LDS Evidences, Family History, Food Storage, etc. JWR: Was Mother Theresa more righteous or just more famous for her righteousness than say the widow in your ward that give the widows mite to the Fast Offering? --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // /// // // // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // // / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // /// // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Loving Mormon Bashers
John W. Redelfs wrote: Love isn't just something claimed, it must be felt by the object of that love. == Grampa Bill opines: Not sure I can agree with this statement. When a loving parent (heavenly or mortal) disciplines a wayward child, seldom does that child feel the love that impelled the discipline... years later, perhaps, but at the momment, no! Love y'all, Grampa Bill in Savannah // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Nehors - was: Unconditional Love
At 03:40 PM 11/5/2003, you wrote: -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 4:24 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ZION] Nehors - was: Unconditional Love At 10:17 AM 11/5/2003, you wrote: At 04:50 PM 11/5/2003 +, Gary wrote: What is important is that we don't twist that love as did Nehor and as do many today, to excuse their sinful natures. Has anyone taken the time and energy to look at the Anti-Christs in the Book of Mormon, such as Nehors, Korihor and company, to see how their philosophies play out in today's society? Since there's nothing new under the sun, I suspect that all of these abominations appear today, probably rather thinly cloaked, in the hype of today's cool thinking. President Benson thought so. For instance, in his famous talk (Which he gave over 37 different times. Not only in General Conference but to Regional Conferences, Regional Representatives Seminars, reprinted as the 1st Presidency Message in the Ensign, and in various wards he visited) entitled, The Book of Mormon is the Word of God, he stated that the second major purpose of the Book of Mormon was to expose, the enemies of Christ. It confounds false doctrines and lays down contention. (See 2 Nephi 3:12.) It fortifies the humble followers of Christ against the evil designs, strategies, and doctrines of the devil in our day. The type of apostates in the Book of Mormon are similar to the type we have today. God, with his infinite foreknowledge, so molded the Book of Mormon that we might see the error and know how to combat false educational, political, religious, and philosophical concepts of our time. I, for one, cannot read Alma chapter 30 without coming to the same conclusion that President Benson did. Korihor was exhibiting many of the philosophies we here about today. Such as atheism, secular humanism, and survival of the fittest. I'd guess it would be wiser of me to withhold comment on a topic so potentially explosive here. So I will demur. But for me, and perhaps a few others, please refine your alarm. Give us specific examples of the kinds of apostates we have today (as foretold in the Book of Mormon) and how secular humanism and athiesm are bigger threats to us today than they were, say, a couple of hundred years ago. Ron Scott Sure. I'll try. Korihor typifies those today who practice no religion at all. Man doesn't need God because there isn't one. Man only prospers according to his own genius or abilities. Whether practiced by extreme capitalists (Corporate raiders come to mind) or Marxists (A progressive society which will eventually evolve into a communist utopia). Nehor typifies those who proclaim for an easy religion. Man doesn't really need to do anything other than profess a vague awareness or belief in God. The example of the Zoramites typify those who selfish-hypocritical religionists. God has chosen them to be better than others. I'd say that the Book of Mormon does a pretty good job of speaking out against those who proclaim a return to naturalism, social or moral relativism, hedonism and the idea prevalent in today's society that man only achieves anything through his own efforts and abilities. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] Nations are defined by their founders. George Washington set a standard of selfless public service and heroic private virtue against which American politicians continue to be measured - and found wanting - even today. --Steven W. Mosher // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Downeast (Was: Official doctrine...)
-Original Message- From: Elmer L. Fairbank [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 8:23 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Official Church Doctrine #1 At 10:23 PM 11/5/2003 -0500, Uncle Ron wrote: Mormons talk too much, I think. Ayup! Till the wordy (BTW, for some of you, that's down-east for yes) And, while the meaning of ayup or ayah (said while sucking gobs of air down the throat) may be obvious to those familiar with St. Gharrgian (the dialect spoken in the towns south of Cedar), it is the easiest to understand word in the lexicon of true Downeasters (people living east-northeast of Bangor, Maine). Whilst a missionary I taught a older fellow (I guess he was about as old as I am now, sigh) from way downeast. Frank Carkin. Quite poor, shabby clothes, gnarly hands, missing teeth, poorer than anyone I'd encountered previously. He was, as we said at the time, golden. And, though he understood us perfectly, his spoken words confounded us ( I worried that I was going deaf, or my synapses were misfiring, or that we'd need to gind a translator-- I kid you not). But his spirit did not: he prayed openly and passionately at the close of the first discussion; had read half the Book of Mormon BEFORE we returned the next night to teach him about it (2nd discussion). And, when he was baptized a few weeks later, he showed up dragging, literally, a gunnysack full of coins he'd been putting aside as tithing over the course of the past year. It was something. I was awed by him then and I am again recalling his face, his faith, his humility. While refreshing my memory of Brother Carkin, I also came across this entry in my missionary journal, written around the time we taught him and a couple of families, all of which were baptized: I wish I had as much faith as some of the people we are teaching. It really makes me feel guilty because I'm the teacher, the one who should have the most faith of all, but yet I don't. I'll continue to work on it. Interesting, revealing observation -- to me, at least. Ron Scott // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Definitions
At 07:22 PM 11/5/2003, you wrote: I think that just as there are true doctrines and the twisted apostate faux copies made by Satan, there are true passions and then there are faux passions created by Satan. Therefore, I believe God is capable of love, but not lust. God is capable of a Godly hatred of wickedness, but not an evil hatred of all. God is capable of desire, but does not fly into a rage of jealousy. Lust in a perfected state is still lust. Love in its perfected state is called charity. Well, again it might be a matter of semantics, but what about a lust for righteousness? -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] Who was Joseph Smith? The Book of Mormon tells us he was of the seed of Joseph that was sold into Egypt, and hence he was selected as Abraham was to fulfil a work upon the earth. God chose this young man. He was ignorant of letters as the world has it, but the most profoundly learned and intelligent man that I ever met in my life, and I have traveled hundreds of thousands of miles, been on different continents and mingled among all classes and creeds of people, yet I have never met a man so intelligent as he was. And where did he get his intelligence from? Not from books, not from the logic or science or philosophy of the day, but he obtained it through the revelation of God made known to him through the medium of the everlasting gospel.John Taylor // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Nehors - was: Unconditional Love
-Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 9:29 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Nehors - was: Unconditional Love At 03:40 PM 11/5/2003, you wrote: -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 4:24 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ZION] Nehors - was: Unconditional Love At 10:17 AM 11/5/2003, you wrote: At 04:50 PM 11/5/2003 +, Gary wrote: What is important is that we don't twist that love as did Nehor and as do many today, to excuse their sinful natures. Has anyone taken the time and energy to look at the Anti-Christs in the Book of Mormon, such as Nehors, Korihor and company, to see how their philosophies play out in today's society? Since there's nothing new under the sun, I suspect that all of these abominations appear today, probably rather thinly cloaked, in the hype of today's cool thinking. President Benson thought so. For instance, in his famous talk (Which he gave over 37 different times. Not only in General Conference but to Regional Conferences, Regional Representatives Seminars, reprinted as the 1st Presidency Message in the Ensign, and in various wards he visited) entitled, The Book of Mormon is the Word of God, he stated that the second major purpose of the Book of Mormon was to expose, the enemies of Christ. It confounds false doctrines and lays down contention. (See 2 Nephi 3:12.) It fortifies the humble followers of Christ against the evil designs, strategies, and doctrines of the devil in our day. The type of apostates in the Book of Mormon are similar to the type we have today. God, with his infinite foreknowledge, so molded the Book of Mormon that we might see the error and know how to combat false educational, political, religious, and philosophical concepts of our time. I, for one, cannot read Alma chapter 30 without coming to the same conclusion that President Benson did. Korihor was exhibiting many of the philosophies we here about today. Such as atheism, secular humanism, and survival of the fittest. I'd guess it would be wiser of me to withhold comment on a topic so potentially explosive here. So I will demur. But for me, and perhaps a few others, please refine your alarm. Give us specific examples of the kinds of apostates we have today (as foretold in the Book of Mormon) and how secular humanism and athiesm are bigger threats to us today than they were, say, a couple of hundred years ago. Ron Scott Sure. I'll try. Korihor typifies those today who practice no religion at all. Man doesn't need God because there isn't one. Man only prospers according to his own genius or abilities. Whether practiced by extreme capitalists (Corporate raiders come to mind) or Marxists (A progressive society which will eventually evolve into a communist utopia). Nehor typifies those who proclaim for an easy religion. Man doesn't really need to do anything other than profess a vague awareness or belief in God. The example of the Zoramites typify those who selfish-hypocritical religionists. God has chosen them to be better than others. I'd say that the Book of Mormon does a pretty good job of speaking out against those who proclaim a return to naturalism, social or moral relativism, hedonism and the idea prevalent in today's society that man only achieves anything through his own efforts and abilities. So for the moment I will abide your claims above. Meantime, please answer the key question I asked earlier: Give us specific examples of ... how secular humanism and athiesm are bigger threats to us today than they were, say, a couple of hundred years ago. Church membership is up. Ditto church attendance. Ditto people who identify themselves as a member of a church. Ron // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Definitions
-Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 9:38 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ZION] Definitions At 07:22 PM 11/5/2003, you wrote: I think that just as there are true doctrines and the twisted apostate faux copies made by Satan, there are true passions and then there are faux passions created by Satan. Therefore, I believe God is capable of love, but not lust. God is capable of a Godly hatred of wickedness, but not an evil hatred of all. God is capable of desire, but does not fly into a rage of jealousy. Lust in a perfected state is still lust. Love in its perfected state is called charity. Well, again it might be a matter of semantics, but what about a lust for righteousness? Said Brother Young to his wife on their wedding night: I have a righteous lust for your temple of the Lord. That kind lust for righteousness? Ron // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Nehors - was: Unconditional Love
At 07:49 AM 11/6/2003, you wrote: So for the moment I will abide your claims above. Meantime, please answer the key question I asked earlier: Give us specific examples of ... how secular humanism and athiesm are bigger threats to us today than they were, say, a couple of hundred years ago. Church membership is up. Ditto church attendance. Ditto people who identify themselves as a member of a church. Ron Don't know if I can Ron. I think beliefs, attitudes and philosophies (as in many other things) go in cycles though. Just because Church attendance is up today doesn't mean there will not be a resurgence of humanistic or atheistic belief tomorrow. Besides--what's your point in asking? -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] O ye Priest of Baal. O, ye gentile religionest O. ye inhabitants of Babylon possessing the Mark of the beast What knowledge have ye of the ordinances or blessings or virtues of the house Church of God? (The Kirtland Diary of Wilford Woodruff) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Nehors - was: Unconditional Love
-Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 9:56 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Nehors - was: Unconditional Love At 07:49 AM 11/6/2003, you wrote: So for the moment I will abide your claims above. Meantime, please answer the key question I asked earlier: Give us specific examples of ... how secular humanism and athiesm are bigger threats to us today than they were, say, a couple of hundred years ago. Church membership is up. Ditto church attendance. Ditto people who identify themselves as a member of a church. Ron Don't know if I can Ron. I think beliefs, attitudes and philosophies (as in many other things) go in cycles though. Just because Church attendance is up today doesn't mean there will not be a resurgence of humanistic or atheistic belief tomorrow. Besides--what's your point in asking? Although my memory is faulty, I recall a claim that we've lost or are losing our because of the rise of secular humanism, agnosticism, communism, athieism all the old bugaboos...when, in fact, the stats (I saw them a couple of weeks ago) suggest just the opposite. Therefore, your fear of a resurgence is not supported by history. We've been there, done that and survived quite nicely. To me such worries have a familiar John Birchian ring to them, no offense intended. Ron Scott // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Definitions
-Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 9:59 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Definitions At 07:56 AM 11/6/2003, you wrote: -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 9:38 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ZION] Definitions At 07:22 PM 11/5/2003, you wrote: I think that just as there are true doctrines and the twisted apostate faux copies made by Satan, there are true passions and then there are faux passions created by Satan. Therefore, I believe God is capable of love, but not lust. God is capable of a Godly hatred of wickedness, but not an evil hatred of all. God is capable of desire, but does not fly into a rage of jealousy. Lust in a perfected state is still lust. Love in its perfected state is called charity. Well, again it might be a matter of semantics, but what about a lust for righteousness? Said Brother Young to his wife on their wedding night: I have a righteous lust for your temple of the Lord. That kind lust for righteousness? Ron Would that be Brother Steve or Brigham? Actually, the last name was Jones. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Nehors - was: Unconditional Love
At 08:09 AM 11/6/2003, you wrote: -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 9:56 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Nehors - was: Unconditional Love At 07:49 AM 11/6/2003, you wrote: So for the moment I will abide your claims above. Meantime, please answer the key question I asked earlier: Give us specific examples of ... how secular humanism and athiesm are bigger threats to us today than they were, say, a couple of hundred years ago. Church membership is up. Ditto church attendance. Ditto people who identify themselves as a member of a church. Ron Don't know if I can Ron. I think beliefs, attitudes and philosophies (as in many other things) go in cycles though. Just because Church attendance is up today doesn't mean there will not be a resurgence of humanistic or atheistic belief tomorrow. Besides--what's your point in asking? Although my memory is faulty, I recall a claim that we've lost or are losing our because of the rise of secular humanism, agnosticism, communism, athieism all the old bugaboos...when, in fact, the stats (I saw them a couple of weeks ago) suggest just the opposite. Therefore, your fear of a resurgence is not supported by history. We've been there, done that and survived quite nicely. To me such worries have a familiar John Birchian ring to them, no offense intended. Ron Scott Actually, I think history supports me quite nicely. And I'll take the John Birchian comment as a compliment--thank you. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] Senior Editor, The Constitutional Broadside Newsletter http://www.thecbn.net // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Nehors - was: Unconditional Love
-Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 10:19 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Nehors - was: Unconditional Love At 08:09 AM 11/6/2003, you wrote: -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 9:56 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Nehors - was: Unconditional Love At 07:49 AM 11/6/2003, you wrote: So for the moment I will abide your claims above. Meantime, please answer the key question I asked earlier: Give us specific examples of ... how secular humanism and athiesm are bigger threats to us today than they were, say, a couple of hundred years ago. Church membership is up. Ditto church attendance. Ditto people who identify themselves as a member of a church. Ron Don't know if I can Ron. I think beliefs, attitudes and philosophies (as in many other things) go in cycles though. Just because Church attendance is up today doesn't mean there will not be a resurgence of humanistic or atheistic belief tomorrow. Besides--what's your point in asking? Although my memory is faulty, I recall a claim that we've lost or are losing our because of the rise of secular humanism, agnosticism, communism, athieism all the old bugaboos...when, in fact, the stats (I saw them a couple of weeks ago) suggest just the opposite. Therefore, your fear of a resurgence is not supported by history. We've been there, done that and survived quite nicely. To me such worries have a familiar John Birchian ring to them, no offense intended. Ron Scott Actually, I think history supports me quite nicely. Yes? How? And I'll take the John Birchian comment as a compliment--thank you. I figured you would. You'e welcome. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Starts with G Giving
This isn't the way I feel today, but it's a sentiment that I understand about giving. Sonnet 180 (I'm snuggled in a cotton batting bath) By Tom Matkin, June 6, 2002 I'm snuggled in a cotton batting bath My senses stuffed with wool and fire in one A victim of some tiny microbe's wrath My goose is more than cooked, it's overdone. I'm tippy, wonky, staggering and faint I'm cloudy, foggy, slow and overcast I hesitate to make this a complaint But now my eyes aren't focusing, they're glassed! I could go home and take a proper pill To put an end to notice of my pain But if I did then how could I fulfill My duty to extend this flu-like chain? Tis better to be giving than to get And so I'll put some others in my debt. Tom I just pretend I'm a princess, and that I could summarily have her executed at any time according to my own pleasure. It gives me great comfort! (The Little Princess) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Beholder of Zion
Ron, I'm not familiar with your work, but I get the feeling from this short piece that the boy didn't really love SLC. At least not with his whole heart. It is fascinating to him, eating at him, part of him, betraying him, shaping him, annoying him and clinging to him like a familiar odor, but he doesn't seem to love it. It's full of memories bigger than life, distorted by a confusion of perception and reality, and he can't quite ever seem to square the circle in his own mind. He's a *beholder* of Zion, after all, not a *belonger*. Of course maybe that was the point, I have no idea what Cee's love of Manhattan was really like either. Tom -Original Message- From: Ron Scott [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: November 5, 2003 5:36 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [ZION] Beholder of Zion At the present, I'm editing some short stories, columns, poems etc. for an proposed anthology. I thought some of you may enjoy this short piece, relevant somewhat to our discussions today. A BEHOLDER OF ZION By RB Scott C2003, 1986 Cee's love for her Manhattan was not unlike Jed's for his Salt Lake. As a youngster he lived near enough to walk to the center of the city after school and on weekends. Often, he would sequester himself in the back of the vast oval Tabernacle on Temple Square while Alexander Schreiner's fingers worked their magic over the five keyboards on the console of the massive pipe organ. At times it seemed as if the performance was intended specifically for Jed, hiding out, alone with his imagination in the upper balcony. There was something positively uplifting, calming about the haunting tones and accompanying reverberations that emanated from those towering Sequoia-like pipes. On occasion, he slipped up the tight circular stairs that led to the choir seats, which spread out like a hillside meadow between the forest of massive pipes and a furrowed valley of wooden pews, each one planed and sanded by the callused hands of Jed's ancestors and their brethren. Sitting on those benches, as he regularly had for general conference in April and October and, later, for concerts by the Utah Symphony Orchestra, he imagined Paradise, communing face-to-face with one departed ancestor or another, that God lived up the hillside, there in the hollows of those majestic, euphonious trunks of native pine. Four blocks from home, he played out a different, if equally fulfilling fantasy. On the gridiron in the stadium at the University of Utah: five seconds left in his mind, he would race down the field, cut left across the grain, dive as his outstretched arms crossed the goal line, snaring the pass with his fingertips. The fans would be going crazy as his teammates hoisted him onto their shoulders; he had lived righteously, fought the good fight, and now God, being just, had blessed him with a winning touchdown catch -- against BYU! Deeper into the sprawling campus he'd roam the university's old cavernous library, pulling books with strange-sounding titles from the shelves, selecting one or two of them to take to the his hideout in carrels sequestered, entombed deep in the stacks, reading for hours as if he was a diligent graduate student gathering research for a Master's thesis. It was there he read that babies need not be cut-out of their mother's bellies; that Benjamin Franklin had been an incorrigible womanizer; that his church's original prophet, Joseph Smith, opened a tavern in his family's manse in Nauvoo, Illinois, and that his successor, Brigham Young, and members of the Quorum of Twelve Apostles once made regular use of spittoons, stationed like sentries at doorways leading to the holiest sections of the temple. And, that many actually thought New York City was a quite wonderful place, not at all the horrific den of thieves and murderers and hookers his parents and the local newspapers made it out to be. Right then and there he learned that perceptions often bear no resemblance to reality and that reality has everything to do with how one beholds it. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // /// // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE!
RE: [ZION] Beholder of Zion
The piece was extracted adapted from a chapter in a (forthcoming) novel. I'd say you're quite the perceptive reader. And, thanks so much for commenting. Ron -Original Message- From: Tom Matkin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 11:07 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Beholder of Zion Ron, I'm not familiar with your work, but I get the feeling from this short piece that the boy didn't really love SLC. At least not with his whole heart. It is fascinating to him, eating at him, part of him, betraying him, shaping him, annoying him and clinging to him like a familiar odor, but he doesn't seem to love it. It's full of memories bigger than life, distorted by a confusion of perception and reality, and he can't quite ever seem to square the circle in his own mind. He's a *beholder* of Zion, after all, not a *belonger*. Of course maybe that was the point, I have no idea what Cee's love of Manhattan was really like either. Tom -Original Message- From: Ron Scott [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: November 5, 2003 5:36 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [ZION] Beholder of Zion At the present, I'm editing some short stories, columns, poems etc. for an proposed anthology. I thought some of you may enjoy this short piece, relevant somewhat to our discussions today. A BEHOLDER OF ZION By RB Scott C2003, 1986 Cee's love for her Manhattan was not unlike Jed's for his Salt Lake. As a youngster he lived near enough to walk to the center of the city after school and on weekends. Often, he would sequester himself in the back of the vast oval Tabernacle on Temple Square while Alexander Schreiner's fingers worked their magic over the five keyboards on the console of the massive pipe organ. At times it seemed as if the performance was intended specifically for Jed, hiding out, alone with his imagination in the upper balcony. There was something positively uplifting, calming about the haunting tones and accompanying reverberations that emanated from those towering Sequoia-like pipes. On occasion, he slipped up the tight circular stairs that led to the choir seats, which spread out like a hillside meadow between the forest of massive pipes and a furrowed valley of wooden pews, each one planed and sanded by the callused hands of Jed's ancestors and their brethren. Sitting on those benches, as he regularly had for general conference in April and October and, later, for concerts by the Utah Symphony Orchestra, he imagined Paradise, communing face-to-face with one departed ancestor or another, that God lived up the hillside, there in the hollows of those majestic, euphonious trunks of native pine. Four blocks from home, he played out a different, if equally fulfilling fantasy. On the gridiron in the stadium at the University of Utah: five seconds left in his mind, he would race down the field, cut left across the grain, dive as his outstretched arms crossed the goal line, snaring the pass with his fingertips. The fans would be going crazy as his teammates hoisted him onto their shoulders; he had lived righteously, fought the good fight, and now God, being just, had blessed him with a winning touchdown catch -- against BYU! Deeper into the sprawling campus he'd roam the university's old cavernous library, pulling books with strange-sounding titles from the shelves, selecting one or two of them to take to the his hideout in carrels sequestered, entombed deep in the stacks, reading for hours as if he was a diligent graduate student gathering research for a Master's thesis. It was there he read that babies need not be cut-out of their mother's bellies; that Benjamin Franklin had been an incorrigible womanizer; that his church's original prophet, Joseph Smith, opened a tavern in his family's manse in Nauvoo, Illinois, and that his successor, Brigham Young, and members of the Quorum of Twelve Apostles once made regular use of spittoons, stationed like sentries at doorways leading to the holiest sections of the temple. And, that many actually thought New York City was a quite wonderful place, not at all the horrific den of thieves and murderers and hookers his parents and the local newspapers made it out to be. Right then and there he learned that perceptions often bear no resemblance to reality and that reality has everything to do with how one beholds it. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // /// // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at
RE: [ZION] Starts with G Giving
You're giving spirit is, ah, catching. -Original Message- From: Tom Matkin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 10:48 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [ZION] Starts with G Giving This isn't the way I feel today, but it's a sentiment that I understand about giving. Sonnet 180 (I'm snuggled in a cotton batting bath) By Tom Matkin, June 6, 2002 I'm snuggled in a cotton batting bath My senses stuffed with wool and fire in one A victim of some tiny microbe's wrath My goose is more than cooked, it's overdone. I'm tippy, wonky, staggering and faint I'm cloudy, foggy, slow and overcast I hesitate to make this a complaint But now my eyes aren't focusing, they're glassed! I could go home and take a proper pill To put an end to notice of my pain But if I did then how could I fulfill My duty to extend this flu-like chain? Tis better to be giving than to get And so I'll put some others in my debt. Tom I just pretend I'm a princess, and that I could summarily have her executed at any time according to my own pleasure. It gives me great comfort! (The Little Princess) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // /// // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Nehors - Humanism
Kent Francis responds with a personal example: Let me introduce myself. My name is Kent Francis and I currently live in West Jordan, Utah. I grew up in the Bay Area of California and graduated with a Masters Degree in Cybernetics from San Jose State. I worked for IBM and Control Data for 18 years and in 1984 established my own computer software company. I have 5 children (the youngest is now 28 and so the fight has moved on to others). I offer my experiences in the hope that they may be useful to you in your attempt to teach your children proper principles, and your fight to protect them from people in the world who might do them harm. Sixteen years ago I wrote the following letter to all my children's teachers as a result of the pervasive influence of Humanism in their schools, and the destructive techniques that were being used to destroy the value system that we had tried so very hard to teach them. Dear Teacher, When we lived in California and Connecticut we were exposed to a new religion called Humanism. I say Religion because on at least two occasions the Supreme Court of the United States has judged it as such. It has a Manifesto I and II (what we would call Articles of Faith which states that there is no such thing as God, the soul, or immortal salvation, and that the Judeo-Christian religions and ethic systems are obstacles to human progress. In the areas of sexuality, they believe that intolerant attitudes cultivated by orthodox religions unduly repress sexual conduct. The right to birth control, abortion, and divorce should be recognized. Mankind is the result of animal evolution and the ethic system which serves him best is one created by the principles of scientific method; there is no right or wrong, life is situational. In order to spread the concepts of their religion, they have turned to the secular channels of information; especially the educational system. Their champions are well known. John Dewey and Horace Mann, the fathers of modern education, B.F. Skinner of operant conditioning fame, J.L. Moreno who designed socioprogams, role playing and psychodrama, Maslow who created the Third Force Psychology, Dr. Carl Rogers of sensitivity training fame, Dr. Lester Kirkendall of SIECUS, Dr. Albert Ellis a leading champion of pre-marital sex, Dr. William Glasser of Reality Therapy and Schools Without Failure programs, Jerome Bruner author of the M:ACOS program, and Louis Raths and Dr. Sidney Simon - designers and promoters of Values Clarification and Values Changing curriculum. Lately the darling of educational circles is Lawrence Kohlberg of Harvard and the Center for Moral Education who calls for cognitive moral development. Because our children couldn't cope with the brainwashing, we gave up our career and retreated to the religious and conservative Utah, only to find that the local emphasis on education had allowed this atheistic religion and its values modification techniques to ingratiate itself with many of the unsuspecting educators. We were, however, pleased to learn that the Utah education code 53-14-4 and 10 specifically prohibits the teaching of atheistic religion and requires teachers to teach honesty, morality, courtesy, obedience to law, respect for parents and homes, respect for the constitutions of the US and Utah, the value of honest labor, and upright citizenship. Also it states that the importance and necessity of good manners, truthfulness, temperance, purity, patriotism and industry shall be given as instruction in connection with regular schoolwork. In addition the Hatch amendment to the US educational code specifically prohibits the use of these psychological testing techniques and practices without the express written permission of parents. Because you might not be aware of these things being a part of the curriculum or teaching materials you are using, we would welcome an opportunity to discuss them with you at your convenience. In the meantime, please do not expose our children to psychodramas, role playing, the values clarification program where they are asked to write journals which are made public, or class discussions on the values of our home and family. Especially to be avoided are moral dilemmas on who is to be chosen in life or death situations (10 people in a life boat with only room for 5...), advocacy of the new morality, and the supposed rights of students to govern their own lives without the interference of parents or other authority figures. My children are generally depressed and distressed by the whole tone of this religion, which dwells in excruciating detail on the dark side of life. Often in the name of examining the great questions of life, they emphasize inhumanity, immorality, deviation, death, disease and disfigurement. Although life is not easy, its more positive aspects have much to recommend them. We appreciate your dedication to the teaching of our children, and honor you for
RE: [ZION] Death of the Dinosaurs -- Revisited
-Original Message- From: Jim Cobabe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: November 6, 2003 7:59 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [ZION] Death of the Dinosaurs -- Revisited Since this was the topic of an earlier discussion about a looming and lowering lunar orbit threatening the heads of taller dinosaurs, I thought it might be of passing interest... That was one of our finer moments on ZION. Funny how we can hammer out solutions to some of the world's greatest questions and the world pays no mind to our brilliance, and then, over time, we forget it ourselves. Thanks for the heads up (so to speak) Jim. Tom Experts split on dinos' demise Though conventional wisdom among many scientists -- and newspaper reporters -- widely favors an apocalyptic asteroid ending the age of dinosaurs, one group of scientists remains decidedly undecided: dinosaur experts. After examining surveys of researchers at various scientific meetings over the past two decades, paleontology student Keynyn Brysse of Canada's University of Alberta concludes that although most experts agree that an asteroid struck the Earth 65 million years ago, most don't agree enough evidence exists to definitively conclude that it killed the dinosaurs. Dinosaur research belongs to the field of vertebrate paleontology, the study of fossil remains of creatures with a backbone. Supporters of the impact theory include geologists, who study rock layers, and invertebrate paleontologists, who study the fossils left behind by shelled sea creatures. Members of those disciplines overwhelmingly agreed in surveys that the asteroid impact caused the mass extinction. But echoing past surveys, about 72 percent of a group of Society of Vertebrate Paleontology members surveyed by Brysse this year contended that the extinction resulted from a combination of volcanic and climate effects along with the impact. Only 20 percent thought the impact alone killed off the dinosaurs. The remainder were uncertain about any cause. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // /// // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Nehors - was: Unconditional Love
To me such worries have a familiar John Birchian ring to them, no offense intended. Ron Scott Some people (on this list even) are singularly unoffended by the taint of John Birchism. Or so I've noticed. Tom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Nehors - was: Unconditional Love
And I'll take the John Birchian comment as a compliment--thank you. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] My point exactly! Sometimes I read through all the messages before replying and other times I just dig in and start pushing the send button without reading everything. Guess which I did this morning? Tom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Nehors - Humanism
Kent: Interesting and provocative commentary. But, I will point out that my own children attended public schools in Connecticut from pre-k through high school in Wesport, Ct., arguably the most liberal school system in the state (as you doubtlessly know, Kent). They were NOT exposed to the things your children were (apparently). Moreover, whenever sensitive information was to be discussed (sex, pre-marital sex, birth control etc.) the schools ALWAYS sent home notes to parents advising them of the forthcoming lessons and of their rights to forego these sessions (many did). As for teaching values in the schools: I attended a number of the open circle session myself and monitored them thereafter. I found that they focused mainly on helping children resolve issues with their peers: teaching tolerance and respect for others. In short, I had no problem with the system in Connecticut. However, it does make me a little edgy that at my daughters fancy/schmancy private elementary school in Massachusetts one does not often hear real Christmas carols being sung. Lots of schmaltzy Christmas music, but few real ones. That is changing, happily as people get more comfortable with the notion that diversity and tolerance do not need to add-up to mush music and even mushier religions. Ron Scott -Original Message- From: R. Kent Francis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 11:30 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ZION] Nehors - Humanism Kent Francis responds with a personal example: Let me introduce myself. My name is Kent Francis and I currently live in West Jordan, Utah. I grew up in the Bay Area of California and graduated with a Masters Degree in Cybernetics from San Jose State. I worked for IBM and Control Data for 18 years and in 1984 established my own computer software company. I have 5 children (the youngest is now 28 and so the fight has moved on to others). I offer my experiences in the hope that they may be useful to you in your attempt to teach your children proper principles, and your fight to protect them from people in the world who might do them harm. Sixteen years ago I wrote the following letter to all my children's teachers as a result of the pervasive influence of Humanism in their schools, and the destructive techniques that were being used to destroy the value system that we had tried so very hard to teach them. Dear Teacher, When we lived in California and Connecticut we were exposed to a new religion called Humanism. I say Religion because on at least two occasions the Supreme Court of the United States has judged it as such. It has a Manifesto I and II (what we would call Articles of Faith which states that there is no such thing as God, the soul, or immortal salvation, and that the Judeo-Christian religions and ethic systems are obstacles to human progress. In the areas of sexuality, they believe that intolerant attitudes cultivated by orthodox religions unduly repress sexual conduct. The right to birth control, abortion, and divorce should be recognized. Mankind is the result of animal evolution and the ethic system which serves him best is one created by the principles of scientific method; there is no right or wrong, life is situational. In order to spread the concepts of their religion, they have turned to the secular channels of information; especially the educational system. Their champions are well known. John Dewey and Horace Mann, the fathers of modern education, B.F. Skinner of operant conditioning fame, J.L. Moreno who designed socioprogams, role playing and psychodrama, Maslow who created the Third Force Psychology, Dr. Carl Rogers of sensitivity training fame, Dr. Lester Kirkendall of SIECUS, Dr. Albert Ellis a leading champion of pre-marital sex, Dr. William Glasser of Reality Therapy and Schools Without Failure programs, Jerome Bruner author of the M:ACOS program, and Louis Raths and Dr. Sidney Simon - designers and promoters of Values Clarification and Values Changing curriculum. Lately the darling of educational circles is Lawrence Kohlberg of Harvard and the Center for Moral Education who calls for cognitive moral development. Because our children couldn't cope with the brainwashing, we gave up our career and retreated to the religious and conservative Utah, only to find that the local emphasis on education had allowed this atheistic religion and its values modification techniques to ingratiate itself with many of the unsuspecting educators. We were, however, pleased to learn that the Utah education code 53-14-4 and 10 specifically prohibits the teaching of atheistic religion and requires teachers to teach honesty, morality, courtesy, obedience to law, respect for parents and homes, respect for the constitutions of the US and Utah, the value of honest labor, and upright citizenship. Also it states that the importance and
RE: [ZION] Nehors - was: Unconditional Love
At 11:43 AM 11/6/2003, you wrote: Ron Scott wrote: Well, by all means, clue them in as to what they've been missing. Be sure to show how it correlates neatly with Mormon teachings. Do I detect a note of sarcasm here.? LOL --JWR More like a whole symphony grin. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] I testify that wickedness is rapidly expanding in every segment of our society (See DC 1:14-16; 84:49-53). It is more highly organized, more cleverly disguised and more powerfully promoted than ever before. Secret combinations lusting for power, gain, and glory are flourishing. A secret combination that seeks to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries is increasing its evil influence and control over America and the entire world (see Ether 8:18-25). - President Ezra Taft Benson General Conference, October 1988 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Nehors - was: Unconditional Love
At 10:36 AM 11/6/2003, you wrote: -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 12:31 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Nehors - was: Unconditional Love Just hazarding a guess, but I suspect that most people, some on this list even, haven't the foggiest idea what the John Birch Society is really about. All they know about it is what they've heard on TV, radio or the newspapers. Or perhaps from Secular Humanist College Professors grin. Well, by all means, clue them in as to what they've been missing. Be sure to show how it correlates neatly with Mormon teachings. Ron Nah. I won't bother. Those who are really interested will find out. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] Those of us who take note of and criticize abuses of power by the federal bureaucracy are often accused of being anti-government. This is not only untrue, it is the exact opposite of the truth. The John Birch Society and those who share our constitutionalist point of view are emphatically pro-government so much so, in fact, that we want to see as many governments as possible dividing power and responsibilities, and keeping each other in check. What we oppose is the alternative the effective abolition of local, county, and state governments and their absorption into a monolithic federal state, which in turn would ultimately be subsumed into a global leviathan directed by the United Nations.--WNG The Review of the News Oct 13, 2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Nehors - was: Unconditional Love
-Original Message- From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 1:43 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Nehors - was: Unconditional Love Ron Scott wrote: Well, by all means, clue them in as to what they've been missing. Be sure to show how it correlates neatly with Mormon teachings. Do I detect a note of sarcasm here.? LOL --JWR No sarcasm. It will provoke a response, however. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Nehors - was: Unconditional Love
-Ron- Ah, the Church of Ezra resurrects itself. Who is its profit: Reed? I don't understand this. Why would the prophet's words in General Conference constitute the Church of Ezra? And why would Reed Benson be called its profit? While I don't know Reed Benson personally, I have had a few dealings with him, and he has always struck me as being very honest and open, not someone who goes about seeking to cash in on his father's name or position. Or have I misinterpreted your comments? Sorry if that's the case; maybe you can clarify them for me. Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Official Doctrine #2
Eternal Marriage Is Essential for Exaltation Many people in the world consider marriage to be only a social custom, a legal agreement between a man and a woman to live together. But to Latter-day Saints, marriage is much more. Our exaltation depends on marriage. We believe that marriage is the most sacred relationship that can exist between a man and a woman. This sacred relationship affects our happiness now and in the eternities. Heavenly Father has given us the law of eternal marriage so we can become like him. We must live this law to be able to have spirit children. The Lord has said: In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees; And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage]; And if he does not, he cannot obtain it (DC 131:1-3). --- Anyone disagree that this is official Church doctrine? Our missionaries teach it to investigators and it is taught to all new members as part of the Gospel Essentials Sunday School class. Is this controversial, or what? Are any of the Brethren divided on this? John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === While we cannot agree with others on certain matters, we must never be disagreeable. We must be friendly, soft-spoken, neighborly, and understanding. (President Gordon B. Hinckley, October 2003) === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Nehors - was: Unconditional Love
Ron Scott wrote: Ah, the Church of Ezra resurrects itself. Who is its profit: Reed? Speaking of dead prophets, which are we to disdain more, Ezra Taft Benson or Bruce R. McConkie? And after President Hinckley dies are we to discount his words immediately, or should we wait an appropriate mourning period? John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === The study of the doctrines of the Gospel will improve behavior quicker than a study of behavior will improve behavior. --Boyd K. Packer === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Official Doctrine #2
What is this, some kind of litmus test? Please define new and everlasting covenant? -Original Message- From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 3:29 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [ZION] Official Doctrine #2 Eternal Marriage Is Essential for Exaltation Many people in the world consider marriage to be only a social custom, a legal agreement between a man and a woman to live together. But to Latter-day Saints, marriage is much more. Our exaltation depends on marriage. We believe that marriage is the most sacred relationship that can exist between a man and a woman. This sacred relationship affects our happiness now and in the eternities. Heavenly Father has given us the law of eternal marriage so we can become like him. We must live this law to be able to have spirit children. The Lord has said: In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees; And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage]; And if he does not, he cannot obtain it (DC 131:1-3). --- Anyone disagree that this is official Church doctrine? Our missionaries teach it to investigators and it is taught to all new members as part of the Gospel Essentials Sunday School class. Is this controversial, or what? Are any of the Brethren divided on this? John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === While we cannot agree with others on certain matters, we must never be disagreeable. We must be friendly, soft-spoken, neighborly, and understanding. (President Gordon B. Hinckley, October 2003) === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // /// // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Nehors - was: Unconditional Love
At 12:48 PM 11/6/2003, you wrote: -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 2:10 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Nehors - was: Unconditional Love At 11:43 AM 11/6/2003, you wrote: Ron Scott wrote: Well, by all means, clue them in as to what they've been missing. Be sure to show how it correlates neatly with Mormon teachings. Do I detect a note of sarcasm here.? LOL --JWR More like a whole symphony grin. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] I testify that wickedness is rapidly expanding in every segment of our society (See DC 1:14-16; 84:49-53). It is more highly organized, more cleverly disguised and more powerfully promoted than ever before. Secret combinations lusting for power, gain, and glory are flourishing. A secret combination that seeks to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries is increasing its evil influence and control over America and the entire world (see Ether 8:18-25). - President Ezra Taft Benson General Conference, October 1988 Ah, the Church of Ezra resurrects itself. Who is its profit: Reed? Oh--Benson not good enough for you? Well, how about the pattern found in the following scriptures then: Alma 8:16,17; 10:27; 30:6-53; 43:29,45; 46:4-7, 10; 47:4,8,18,24,30,35; 48:1,7; 51:2,5-8, 13; 61:4; 62:9-10 Helaman 1:7-12; 2:1-14; 3:23; 4:22; 6:17-41; 7:4-5, 25; 8:1-4,7; 10:6,11; 11:10,26 3 Nephi 1:27; 2:11-12, 17-19; 3:1-26; 6:21-30; 7:1-2; 9:9 4 Nephi 42 Mormon 8:27 Ether 8:9-26; 9:5-6 -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] . . . in the future the opposition from Satan will be both more subtle and more open. While in some ways it may be more blatant, it will be masked with greater sophistication and cunning. We will need greater spirituality to perceive all the forms of evil and greater strength to resist it. (President James E. Faust, CR, April 2003) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Nehors - was: Unconditional Love
Was BRM a prophet? Actually, I continue to respect the words of dead prophets, but I frame them in the context today. In doing so, I often discover that much of what they had to say had revealed more of about their personal opinions than church doctrine. I'd say this was the case for every single prophet, beginning with Joseph Smith. But, that's just my opinion. Ron -Original Message- From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 3:18 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Nehors - was: Unconditional Love Ron Scott wrote: Ah, the Church of Ezra resurrects itself. Who is its profit: Reed? Speaking of dead prophets, which are we to disdain more, Ezra Taft Benson or Bruce R. McConkie? And after President Hinckley dies are we to discount his words immediately, or should we wait an appropriate mourning period? John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === The study of the doctrines of the Gospel will improve behavior quicker than a study of behavior will improve behavior. --Boyd K. Packer === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // /// // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Official Doctrine #2
John W. Redelfs wrote: Eternal Marriage Is Essential for Exaltation (* * *) Anyone disagree that this is official Church doctrine? Our missionaries teach it to investigators and it is taught to all new members as part of the Gospel Essentials Sunday School class. Is this controversial, or what? Are any of the Brethren divided on this? I certainly don't believe these is any division, but wonder if perhaps the focus has shifted more towards the preservation of _existing_ marriages. For instance, just in the last few weeks, in our ward alone, we've had two couples get separated, and in the prior year and a half, three divorces were finalized. Four of these were temple marriages...the fifth might be also, but I'm not sure. And that's just the stuff I'm personally aware of...I imagine the Bishop might have knowledge of others. But mainly I just get the sense what our ward is experiencing may not be an anomoly. Celestial marriage is important...if I didn't think so, I wouldn't have written so many woe is me posts over the years. ;-) But the covenants made in the sealing room won't exactly hold a lot of water if the persons who made them don't follow through, or in other words, endure to the end. Even worse, children get caught in the crossfire, and their spiritual state has to be considered as well. I tend to think the Lord may hold such parents responsible to the extent that their children have fallen away as a direct result. /Sandy/ -- The Rabinowitz Family, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Spring Hill, Tennessee // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Nehors - was: Unconditional Love
-Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 4:51 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Nehors - was: Unconditional Love At 12:48 PM 11/6/2003, you wrote: -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 2:10 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Nehors - was: Unconditional Love At 11:43 AM 11/6/2003, you wrote: Ron Scott wrote: Well, by all means, clue them in as to what they've been missing. Be sure to show how it correlates neatly with Mormon teachings. Do I detect a note of sarcasm here.? LOL --JWR More like a whole symphony grin. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] I testify that wickedness is rapidly expanding in every segment of our society (See DC 1:14-16; 84:49-53). It is more highly organized, more cleverly disguised and more powerfully promoted than ever before. Secret combinations lusting for power, gain, and glory are flourishing. A secret combination that seeks to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries is increasing its evil influence and control over America and the entire world (see Ether 8:18-25). - President Ezra Taft Benson General Conference, October 1988 Ah, the Church of Ezra resurrects itself. Who is its profit: Reed? Oh--Benson not good enough for you? Well, how about the pattern found in the following scriptures then: President Benson was good enough for me. His politics were not. For additional comments, see my response to your fellow traveler. Ron Scott // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Nehors - Humanism
Kent writes:
I make it a policy to stay out of boats in general {8^).
Actually I have been on and off the list for as long as there has been a
John Redelfs on the internet... usually I just lurk unless I feel I can make
a contribution.
Tom Matkin wrote:
Subject: Re: [ZION] Nehors - Humanism
Kent Francis responds with a personal example:
I think if I'm ever adrift in a 5 man lifeboat and 9 other people I want
one of them to be you! We could find a way to make it work. Thanks for
sharing your letter and experiences with us. Are you new to the list or
a long time lurker?
Tom
//
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RE: [ZION] Nehors - was: Unconditional Love
No, Stephen, you did not misinterpret my comments. I did know Reed Benson. He did try to capitalize on his connection to his father and he succeeded from time to time. Frankly, it's my opinion when the unexpergated history of the church is written, it will be shown that Reed Benson's skillful manipulations darn near cost his father his father big time. I have great respect for President Benson even though I neither agree with his politics nor with the way he sometimes used the pulpit to advance his political beliefs. It is tragic than most people remember President Benson's arch politics more than they do the good he did for the church as an apostle. But I understand why that is the case. It also troubling that some members of the Church, particularly those with far right political views, think he is the only latter-day prophet worth listening to. Ron Scott -Original Message- From: Stephen Beecroft [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 3:09 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Nehors - was: Unconditional Love -Ron- Ah, the Church of Ezra resurrects itself. Who is its profit: Reed? I don't understand this. Why would the prophet's words in General Conference constitute the Church of Ezra? And why would Reed Benson be called its profit? While I don't know Reed Benson personally, I have had a few dealings with him, and he has always struck me as being very honest and open, not someone who goes about seeking to cash in on his father's name or position. Or have I misinterpreted your comments? Sorry if that's the case; maybe you can clarify them for me. Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // /// // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Was Elder McConkie a Prophet?
Ron Scott wrote: Was BRM a prophet? Actually, I continue to respect the words of dead prophets, but I frame them in the context today. In doing so, I often discover that much of what they had to say had revealed more of about their personal opinions than church doctrine. I'd say this was the case for every single prophet, beginning with Joseph Smith. But, that's just my opinion. Every six months the Church membership sustains the First Presidency and the Twelve as prophets, seers, and revelators. All fifteen of these men are sustained by the Church general conference as prophets. But no, Elder Bruce R. McConkie was never the President of the Church. He was a prophet, but he wasn't the Prophet. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === The study of the doctrines of the Gospel will improve behavior quicker than a study of behavior will improve behavior. --Boyd K. Packer === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Official Doctrine #2
Ron Scott wrote: What is this, some kind of litmus test? Please define new and everlasting covenant? It is not a litmus test, it is a Sunday School lesson from the Gospel Essentials Sunday School manual entitled GOSPEL PRINCIPLES. On another thread George Cobabe said that official Church doctrine was very hard to determine. And I said that this is only true if we get into speculative areas. As long as we stick to the most basic fundamentals, official Church doctrine is easily determined. Well, the Gospel Essentials class is for investigators and new members and it basically just supplements and reinforces the missionary discussions that all our missionaries teach to new investigators. The manual, which has been through correlation, restricts itself to the most basic fundamentals and is NOT controversial in the tiniest degree. What is the new and everlasting covenant? The phrase is used two ways that I know of: 1) It is a reference to the Book of Mormon, and 2) it is a reference to temple marriage for time and all eternity. This latter usage is evidently the one being used in the lesson I posted. I have thought I would post parts of the GOSPEL PRINCIPLES manual from time to time to see if I get any disagreement, and if so, from whom. I keep hearing about false doctrine creeping into our correlated manuals, but I don't know of any particular instances. I thought this might be one way of finding out. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === While we cannot agree with others on certain matters, we must never be disagreeable. We must be friendly, soft-spoken, neighborly, and understanding. (President Gordon B. Hinckley, October 2003) === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Official Doctrine #2
If that's how you define, eternal marriage between one man and one woman, then no problem. -Original Message- From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 5:42 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Official Doctrine #2 Ron Scott wrote: What is this, some kind of litmus test? Please define new and everlasting covenant? It is not a litmus test, it is a Sunday School lesson from the Gospel Essentials Sunday School manual entitled GOSPEL PRINCIPLES. On another thread George Cobabe said that official Church doctrine was very hard to determine. And I said that this is only true if we get into speculative areas. As long as we stick to the most basic fundamentals, official Church doctrine is easily determined. Well, the Gospel Essentials class is for investigators and new members and it basically just supplements and reinforces the missionary discussions that all our missionaries teach to new investigators. The manual, which has been through correlation, restricts itself to the most basic fundamentals and is NOT controversial in the tiniest degree. What is the new and everlasting covenant? The phrase is used two ways that I know of: 1) It is a reference to the Book of Mormon, and 2) it is a reference to temple marriage for time and all eternity. This latter usage is evidently the one being used in the lesson I posted. I have thought I would post parts of the GOSPEL PRINCIPLES manual from time to time to see if I get any disagreement, and if so, from whom. I keep hearing about false doctrine creeping into our correlated manuals, but I don't know of any particular instances. I thought this might be one way of finding out. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === While we cannot agree with others on certain matters, we must never be disagreeable. We must be friendly, soft-spoken, neighborly, and understanding. (President Gordon B. Hinckley, October 2003) === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // /// // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Nehors - was: Unconditional Love
At 03:37 PM 11/6/2003, Ron Scott wrote: President Benson was good enough for me. His politics were not. For additional comments, see my response to your fellow traveler. Ron Scott That's fine. The politics can come later--as you gain more light and knowledge grin. Which reminds me of a joke. Something about newborn mice being good communists. When the commissar come back a few weeks later he discovers they are not communists anymore--their eyes had opened. Or something to that effect. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] Senior Editor, The Constitutional Broadside Newsletter http://www.thecbn.net // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Nehors - was: Unconditional Love
Ron Scott wrote: It also troubling that some members of the Church, particularly those with far right political views, think he is the only latter-day prophet worth listening to. Strawman. There are no such far right members still in the Church that I am aware of. And I know an awful lot of the far right crowd being one of them myself. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Nehors - was: Unconditional Love
-Original Message- From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 6:19 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Nehors - was: Unconditional Love Ron Scott wrote: It also troubling that some members of the Church, particularly those with far right political views, think he is the only latter-day prophet worth listening to. Strawman. There are no such far right members still in the Church that I am aware of. And I know an awful lot of the far right crowd being one of them myself. --JWR Ah yes. And no Korihors and wolves in sheeps clothing either, right John? // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Official Doctrine #2
Ron Scott wrote: If that's how you define, eternal marriage between one man and one woman, then no problem. Between man and woman. According to DC 132, plural marriage is OK as long as it is authorized by the priesthood. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Official Doctrine #2
Sandy and Melinda Rabinowitz wrote: Celestial marriage is important...if I didn't think so, I wouldn't have written so many woe is me posts over the years. ;-) But the covenants made in the sealing room won't exactly hold a lot of water if the persons who made them don't follow through, or in other words, endure to the end. Even worse, children get caught in the crossfire, and their spiritual state has to be considered as well. I tend to think the Lord may hold such parents responsible to the extent that their children have fallen away as a direct result. I remember those woe is me posts, Sandy. And when I see how the Lord has blessed you since, it builds my faith. Would that all the single men in the Church were as devoted to keeping the commandment to marry as seriously as you did and do. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] THE AMERICAN RELIGION
Hey Ron, are you familiar with THE AMERICAN RELIGION by Harold Bloom? I've been reading it the last couple of weeks, and I find it fascinating that a Gentile (actually, he is an unbelieving Jew) would state a conviction that 1. The Latter-day Saints will resume the practice of plural marriage in the first half of the 21st century. 2. The Latter-day Saints will establish a sovereign state in either part or all of the United States at about the same time. I have long felt that this would happen. I find it remarkable that such a renowned and worldly scholar would have come to the same conclusion. What do you think? John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === While we cannot agree with others on certain matters, we must never be disagreeable. We must be friendly, soft-spoken, neighborly, and understanding. (President Gordon B. Hinckley, October 2003) === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Official Doctrine #2
For practical purposes, I'll stick with my previous statement -- one man, one woman -- if you don't mind. -Original Message- From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 6:42 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Official Doctrine #2 Ron Scott wrote: If that's how you define, eternal marriage between one man and one woman, then no problem. Between man and woman. According to DC 132, plural marriage is OK as long as it is authorized by the priesthood. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // /// // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] THE AMERICAN RELIGION
-Original Message- From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 6:53 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [ZION] THE AMERICAN RELIGION Hey Ron, are you familiar with THE AMERICAN RELIGION by Harold Bloom? I've been reading it the last couple of weeks, and I find it fascinating that a Gentile (actually, he is an unbelieving Jew) would state a conviction that Once a Jew, always a Jew. HE is not a gentile. A secular Jew perhaps. But a Jew. 1. The Latter-day Saints will resume the practice of plural marriage in the first half of the 21st century. Oy vey! I don't see any of current crop of leaders doing that, even if ACLU convinces the Supreme Court that monogamy infringes upon the right to freely practice one's religion. 2. The Latter-day Saints will establish a sovereign state in either part or all of the United States at about the same time. You mean like Vatican City? A possibility, but unlikely. If you're talking something grander, phooey. President Hinckley just got us into the main stream, more or less. I can't imagine that anyone at the top wants out. I have long felt that this would happen. I find it remarkable that such a renowned and worldly scholar would have come to the same conclusion. What do you think? If that's what he concluded, I think he's been spending way to much of his time talking to crackpots in mountains of Idaho and the outback in central Utah. RBS // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Nehors - was: Unconditional Love
-Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 6:20 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Nehors - was: Unconditional Love At 03:37 PM 11/6/2003, Ron Scott wrote: President Benson was good enough for me. His politics were not. For additional comments, see my response to your fellow traveler. Ron Scott That's fine. The politics can come later--as you gain more light and knowledge grin. Which reminds me of a joke. Something about newborn mice being good communists. When the commissar come back a few weeks later he discovers they are not communists anymore--their eyes had opened. Or something to that effect. Say, who are you and your pals chasing now that there aren't commies and pinkos in every commode and closet? // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Nehors - was: Unconditional Love
Ron Scott wrote: Ah yes. And no Korihors and wolves in sheeps clothing either, right John? I'm pretty sure there are some Korihors and wolves in sheep's clothing. Ezra Taft Benson said so. grin --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Official Doctrine #2
As you know, John, when you ask the question I can testify that this is true. However there is more to the answer than what has been presented. I would be delighted to discuss this topic with courtesy and good will, if that would be possible. George - Original Message - From: John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 1:28 PM Subject: [ZION] Official Doctrine #2 Eternal Marriage Is Essential for Exaltation Many people in the world consider marriage to be only a social custom, a legal agreement between a man and a woman to live together. But to Latter-day Saints, marriage is much more. Our exaltation depends on marriage. We believe that marriage is the most sacred relationship that can exist between a man and a woman. This sacred relationship affects our happiness now and in the eternities. Heavenly Father has given us the law of eternal marriage so we can become like him. We must live this law to be able to have spirit children. The Lord has said: In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees; And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage]; And if he does not, he cannot obtain it (DC 131:1-3). --- Anyone disagree that this is official Church doctrine? Our missionaries teach it to investigators and it is taught to all new members as part of the Gospel Essentials Sunday School class. Is this controversial, or what? Are any of the Brethren divided on this? John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === While we cannot agree with others on certain matters, we must never be disagreeable. We must be friendly, soft-spoken, neighborly, and understanding. (President Gordon B. Hinckley, October 2003) === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Official Doctrine #2
John W. Redelfs wrote: Ron Scott wrote: If that's how you define, eternal marriage between one man and one woman, then no problem. Between man and woman. According to DC 132, plural marriage is OK as long as it is authorized by the priesthood. --JWR And, technically, it *is* presently authorized in one very specific instance: Brother A is sealed to Sister B. B dies. (By definition, this sealing continues beyond death.) Brother A can at a later point be sealed to Sister C. In fact, I think that was what happened with Howard W. Hunter. It's only when A seeks to be married to living sisters B, C, D, (etc.) *simultaneously* that Official Declaration #1 comes into focus. /Sandy/ -- The Rabinowitz Family, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Spring Hill, Tennessee // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Commies and Pinkos
Ron Scott wrote: That's fine. The politics can come later--as you gain more light and knowledge grin. Which reminds me of a joke. Something about newborn mice being good communists. When the commissar come back a few weeks later he discovers they are not communists anymore--their eyes had opened. Or something to that effect. --- Say, who are you and your pals chasing now that there aren't commies and pinkos in every commode and closet? Personally, I've moved away from politics and further into the gospel. I know that the commies and pinkos are still there, I just don't care as much what they are doing. Maybe you could fill me in, do you think? Not that you were ever a commie or a pinko. And if you go looking for commies and pinkos you still might be able to find some of them if you look in the right places: China North Korea Cuba Vietnam Harvard Yale ??? John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === The study of the doctrines of the Gospel will improve behavior quicker than a study of behavior will improve behavior. --Boyd K. Packer === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Far Right In the Church
Tom Matkin wrote: Strawman. There are no such far right members still in the Church that I am aware of. And I know an awful lot of the far right crowd being one of them myself. --JWR I'm only able to follow this logically if you are out of the Church now John. Help me understand what you are trying to say? I was responding to a statement by Ron that the far right members listened ONLY to President Ezra Taft Benson. I know such, but they are former Mormons who have left the Church. Those who have remained also hearken to the other prophets such as President Hinckley, Elder Packer, etc. I think you missed the word such in the above quotation. I'm not denying that there are far right in the Church. I am one myself. But such as hearken ONLY to Ezra Taft Benson I am not, nor do I know others who retain their membership. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === While we cannot agree with others on certain matters, we must never be disagreeable. We must be friendly, soft-spoken, neighborly, and understanding. (President Gordon B. Hinckley, October 2003) === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Nehors - was: Unconditional Love
-Original Message- From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 6:47 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Nehors - was: Unconditional Love Ron Scott wrote: Ah yes. And no Korihors and wolves in sheeps clothing either, right John? I'm pretty sure there are some Korihors and wolves in sheep's clothing. Ezra Taft Benson said so. grin --JWR He did? When? Was he eyeballing his son? grin RBS // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Nehors - was: Unconditional Love
-Original Message- From: Tom Matkin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 7:09 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Nehors - was: Unconditional Love Strawman. There are no such far right members still in the Church that I am aware of. And I know an awful lot of the far right crowd being one of them myself. --JWR I'm only able to follow this logically if you are out of the Church now John. Help me understand what you are trying to say? Tom ROTFL. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Official Doctrine #2
George Cobabe wrote: As you know, John, when you ask the question I can testify that this is true. However there is more to the answer than what has been presented. I would be delighted to discuss this topic with courtesy and good will, if that would be possible. If you have any information that current Church leaders support your view that all who obtain the Celestial Kingdom inherit eternal life, I would be interested. Otherwise, I'd rather move on to something else. I don't want Tom Matkin leaving the list again. His views and mine are very much mainstream as stated in GOSPEL PRINCIPLES. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === The study of the doctrines of the Gospel will improve behavior quicker than a study of behavior will improve behavior. --Boyd K. Packer === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Official Doctrine #2
Tom Matkin wrote: But I am curious how we are going to square the circle of proselyting those corners of the world where it is in good standing. But God has figured that out and he'll let us know when we have a need to know. For now, those who insist on practicing it separate themselves from the good fellowship and ordinances of the Church, and justly so. But I'm fiercely positive about the divine institution of plural marriage at and for the time and place that it was established. These are my feelings exactly. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Official Doctrine #2
Sandy and Melinda Rabinowitz wrote: And, technically, it *is* presently authorized in one very specific instance: Brother A is sealed to Sister B. B dies. (By definition, this sealing continues beyond death.) Brother A can at a later point be sealed to Sister C. In fact, I think that was what happened with Howard W. Hunter. Actually, my understanding is the President Hunter's second wife was for time only. She was already sealed to another man. Elder Dallin Oaks is a good example though. He is still sealed to his first wife, but he has taken another worthy sister to the temple for time and all eternity. I just hope the two sisters get along. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === While we cannot agree with others on certain matters, we must never be disagreeable. We must be friendly, soft-spoken, neighborly, and understanding. (President Gordon B. Hinckley, October 2003) === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Nehors - was: Unconditional Love
Ron Scott wrote: I'm pretty sure there are some Korihors and wolves in sheep's clothing. Ezra Taft Benson said so. grin --JWR He did? When? Was he eyeballing his son? grin Maybe he was eyeballing his grandson, Steve. double grin --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Catholics Mormons unite
I understand all of the above, however, I go back to Joseph Smith in which he was commanded to join none of them. Helping them on some project may appear to be wonderful, but doesn't it suggest to some who have gotten mixed signals that we no longer hold the doctrine of the restoration of the gospel true? My friend got such a mixed message while studying with the missionaries. Stacy. At 11:05 PM 11/05/2003 -0500, you wrote: John W. Redelfs wrote: I have mixed feelings about befriending other churches. It seems to me that we should befriend individuals and not false churches. After all, false churches teach false doctrine and in doing so they fight against the truth. If false churches aren't the church of the devil, what is? Maybe nothing is, do you think? But John, EVERY CHURCH is a false church other than the Lords (this one). And, frankly, given some of the lessons I have heard, ours is sometimes a false church! It's hard not to love someone who loves the Lord, even if they don't have it all quite right. It's hard not to be grateful to someone who thinks enough of you to try to save you, even though they can't. Working with others to do good works is not a bad thing. We have prophets today to help us sort these kinds of issues out. If the prophet says it is OK, then it is OK with me. It's not that the prophet is right in all things; after all, he is just a man. However, in this area, I think that he listens to the counsel of the Lord. Jon // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Loving Mormon Bashers
Very good policy. Stacy. At 12:07 AM 11/06/2003 -0500, you wrote: Well, John, I would agree with you there. Bashing is not in the Christlike action list of things to do. I am commanded to love the bashers, but I certainly don't have to either like them or tolerate being around them. But I was referring to those who try, out of love, to help me be saved. My response of gratitude will go a lot further towards helping them understand the true gospel than my shunning then. In my highly Baptist community, our Church has gained a fairly good reputation after decades of good works, many of those works done in concert with those of other faiths. So I try to separate the wheat from the chafe. Jon - Original Message - From: John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 11:09 PM Subject: [ZION] Loving Mormon Bashers Jon Spencer wrote: It's hard not to love someone who loves the Lord, even if they don't have it all quite right. It's hard not to be grateful to someone who thinks enough of you to try to save you, even though they can't. Changing the subject, how is it that when an anti-Mormon bashes me for being a member of the Church, and claims that he is doing it out of love for me, I don't believe him? Love isn't just something claimed, it must be felt by the object of that love. And I don't feel love from these activists from other denominations. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] The Propensities of Functionaries
The following is from an author that has strongly shaped the man I am: --- It was the genius of Jefferson to see that free people would rarely have to defend their freedom against principalities and powers and satanic enemies of the good, but that they would have to defend it daily against the perfectly natural and inevitable propensities of functionaries. Any fool, can see, eventually, the danger to freedom in a self-confessed military dictatorship, but it takes informed discretion to see the same danger in bland bureaucracies made up entirely of decent people who are just doing their jobs. But Jefferson was optimistic. As to the liberty and property of the people, he saw that there is no safe deposit for them but with the people themselves; nor can they be safe with them without information. And he was convinced, alas, that the people could easily come by that information: Where the press is free, and every man able to read, all is secure. (Mitchell, Richard. THE GRAVES OF ACADEME.) --- John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === While we cannot agree with others on certain matters, we must never be disagreeable. We must be friendly, soft-spoken, neighborly, and understanding. (President Gordon B. Hinckley, October 2003) === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Defining Literacy
More from a great thinker on the topic of education: Just as we cannot assume that what we call education is the same as Jefferson's informed discretion, we cannot assume that Jefferson meant what we mean by press and able to read. In our time, the press, in spite of threats real or imagined, is in fact free. And, if we define literacy in a very special and limited way, almost everyone is able to read, more or less. But when Jefferson looked at the press, what did he see? Or, more to the point, what did he not see? He did not see monthly periodicals devoted entirely to such things as hair care and motorcycling and the imagined intimate details of the lives of television stars and rock singers. He did not see a sports page, a fashion page, a household hints column, or an astrological forecast. He did not see a never-ending succession of breathless articles on low-budget decorating for the executive couple in the big city, career enhancement through creative haberdashery, and the achievement of orgasm through enlightened self-interest. He did not see a nationwide portrayal of the important as composed primarily of the doings and undoings of entertainers, athletes, politicians, and criminals. (Mitchell, Richard. THE GRAVES OF ACADEME) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] The Cruelty of False Doctrine
My sentiments exactly! Stacy. At 02:50 PM 11/05/2003 -0900, you wrote: Gerald Smith wrote: Your list is doctrinal. But once one begins scratching the surface of these ideas, we leave the area of doctrine and enter into speculation. For example, 1. There is a God with a body, but was he a Savior on his own planet? I don't know. 2. Is Christ the savior of just this world, all the universe? What? I don't know. 3. Was Joseph Smith infallible? If not, which of his statements are not prophetic? I don't know. 4. What parts of the Bible have not been translated correctly? I don't know. 5. Pres Hinckley is prophet, but does he know everything? Or just what God has revealed to him, sufficient to provide eternal life to mankind? I don't know. 6. How much faith is required to be saved? And is that salvation in the Celestial Kingdom, or a lower kingdom that we are speaking about? I don't know. I am continually astounded at my ignorance. It is truly world class. Perhaps that is why my love of doctrine is so intensely interested in what we DO know for sure. However, I have noticed something interesting on these email discussion lists: For everything I don't know, there is someone who thinks he does. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === The study of the doctrines of the Gospel will improve behavior quicker than a study of behavior will improve behavior. --Boyd K. Packer === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Official Doctrine #2
John W. Redelfs wrote: --- Would that all the single men in the Church were as devoted to keeping the commandment to marry as seriously as you did and do. --- Many of us take it seriously too. As a single man I am working on addressing this concern as quickly as sanity and comfort can afford. I have discovered that it is not an easy thing for an older man. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] An Illustrious Group
Tom Valletta has just joined us. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Official Doctrine #2
Jim Cobabe wrote: Many of us take it seriously too. As a single man I am working on addressing this concern as quickly as sanity and comfort can afford. I have discovered that it is not an easy thing for an older man. Jim, the Lord is going to bless you more than you can imagine. I know it. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Catholics Mormons unite
John W. Redelfs wrote: --- How can we teach 1) that all the other churches contain some truth, and 2) that we are the only true church? The two statements are not incompatible, but they might easily be confused by those of inadequate education. --- I believe it is being done as we speak. Do you see the current missionary program as compromised or ineffective? Looks like it is working well to me. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Call for Introductions
Ron Scott is new on the list, and while he knows a few of us, there are a great many others that he doesn't. I would love it if each of us would post a short bio by way of introduction. We never know each other as well as we think we do. Take R. Kent Francis, for an example. I've known him for as long as I've been on the Internet. And he's been here on Zion as long as anyone here, probably ten years, but he doesn't post so often that he is a household name. There are probably others on the list we need to know better. So, don't feel put on the spot. Privacy is a treasured commodity. But if anyone needs an invitation, here it is. I'll try to post my brief who I am and what I do later tonight or sometime tomorrow. Your friend and brother, John W. Redelfs, [EMAIL PROTECTED] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Official Doctrine #2
There are those on this list that in the past have argued that Eternal Marriage is NOT essential for exaltation. Exaltation is living in the presence of God the Father and receiving His blessings. Yet it is suggested that to live in the Celestial Kingdom it is not necessary to have an Eternal Marriage. I beleive that is wrong and agree with the opening statement, but the Church as a whole does not believe this as it is a common beleif that you can gain the CK and still be single. George - Original Message - From: Sandy and Melinda Rabinowitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 3:20 PM Subject: RE: [ZION] Official Doctrine #2 John W. Redelfs wrote: Eternal Marriage Is Essential for Exaltation (* * *) Anyone disagree that this is official Church doctrine? Our missionaries teach it to investigators and it is taught to all new members as part of the Gospel Essentials Sunday School class. Is this controversial, or what? Are any of the Brethren divided on this? I certainly don't believe these is any division, but wonder if perhaps the focus has shifted more towards the preservation of _existing_ marriages. For instance, just in the last few weeks, in our ward alone, we've had two couples get separated, and in the prior year and a half, three divorces were finalized. Four of these were temple marriages...the fifth might be also, but I'm not sure. And that's just the stuff I'm personally aware of...I imagine the Bishop might have knowledge of others. But mainly I just get the sense what our ward is experiencing may not be an anomoly. Celestial marriage is important...if I didn't think so, I wouldn't have written so many woe is me posts over the years. ;-) But the covenants made in the sealing room won't exactly hold a lot of water if the persons who made them don't follow through, or in other words, endure to the end. Even worse, children get caught in the crossfire, and their spiritual state has to be considered as well. I tend to think the Lord may hold such parents responsible to the extent that their children have fallen away as a direct result. /Sandy/ -- The Rabinowitz Family, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Spring Hill, Tennessee // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Catholics Mormons unite
On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 16:14:18 -0900 John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: This is a concern that I have, probably a futile concern. How can we teach 1) that all the other churches contain some truth, and 2) that we are the only true church? The two statements are not incompatible, but they might easily be confused by those of inadequate education. --JWR I find that an anology usually works, especially for those of inadequate education. First, though, the word true can mean many things. Here, I believe it is used to mean genuine, or exact, conforming to a standard. My favorite anology here is the broken mirror. When the great apostasy occured, the mirror (ie The TRUE/GENUINE/EXACTING Gospel) was shattered. Churches were built from the fragments that were left (thus SOME truth). When Joseph Smith restored the Gospel and had all the keys handed to him, he had, once again, a complete mirror--thus the only TRUE/GENUINE/EXACTING church. val .:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:. «¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Official Doctrine #2
And I said that this is only true if we get into speculative areas. As long as we stick to the most basic fundamentals, official Church doctrine is easily determined. And George would agree with this statement wholeheartedly. It is the scope of the most basic fundamentals that is so very hard to define. George - Original Message - From: John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 3:42 PM Subject: RE: [ZION] Official Doctrine #2 Ron Scott wrote: What is this, some kind of litmus test? Please define new and everlasting covenant? It is not a litmus test, it is a Sunday School lesson from the Gospel Essentials Sunday School manual entitled GOSPEL PRINCIPLES. On another thread George Cobabe said that official Church doctrine was very hard to determine. And I said that this is only true if we get into speculative areas. As long as we stick to the most basic fundamentals, official Church doctrine is easily determined. Well, the Gospel Essentials class is for investigators and new members and it basically just supplements and reinforces the missionary discussions that all our missionaries teach to new investigators. The manual, which has been through correlation, restricts itself to the most basic fundamentals and is NOT controversial in the tiniest degree. What is the new and everlasting covenant? The phrase is used two ways that I know of: 1) It is a reference to the Book of Mormon, and 2) it is a reference to temple marriage for time and all eternity. This latter usage is evidently the one being used in the lesson I posted. I have thought I would post parts of the GOSPEL PRINCIPLES manual from time to time to see if I get any disagreement, and if so, from whom. I keep hearing about false doctrine creeping into our correlated manuals, but I don't know of any particular instances. I thought this might be one way of finding out. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === While we cannot agree with others on certain matters, we must never be disagreeable. We must be friendly, soft-spoken, neighborly, and understanding. (President Gordon B. Hinckley, October 2003) === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Catholics Mormons unite
Jim Cobabe wrote: John W. Redelfs wrote: --- How can we teach 1) that all the other churches contain some truth, and 2) that we are the only true church? The two statements are not incompatible, but they might easily be confused by those of inadequate education. --- I believe it is being done as we speak. Do you see the current missionary program as compromised or ineffective? Looks like it is working well to me. I agree. There is no inadequacy in the missionary program. OTOH as long as I've been online I have run across members, often of long standing or even born in the Church, who seem to feel that one church is about as good as another, and that this one is extraordinary only because it is the one they grew up in. This isn't just the best church, it is the ONLY one that teaches correct doctrine. I'm not against the truth that I see preached in other churches. I'm all for it. I just don't see nearly as much as I see here. And the gap is much wider in my perception than it is for most of the saints. By contrast, those in other churches are in desperate need of our missionaries because their gospel isn't much improved over the philosophies of men that they could learn down at the corner pub. For an example, it astounds me that many Protestant congregations never teach the value or desirability of chastity before marriage and fidelity after marriage. They don't teach tithing or Sabbath observance. A lot of them don't even teach their members how to pray, or the importance of repentance. I guess I just get defensive when others seem unaware of HOW blessed we are to have the guidance of true prophets. Then I hear them defending these other denominations, and I'm afraid they just don't understand how fortunate they are. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === The study of the doctrines of the Gospel will improve behavior quicker than a study of behavior will improve behavior. --Boyd K. Packer === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Official Doctrine #2
Tom wrote--- The development of the church was leapfrogged a hundred years by polygamy. In my completely unverifiable opinion. does anyone on the list have some figures for the actual number of menb that were practicing polygamy, versus the total number of marriage age men in the church during that time? Unless that's what the Lord decrees, in which case it's just the way it is. However I have no sense of it coming back, certainly no desire to see it. But I am curious how we are going to square the circle of proselyting those corners of the world where it is in good standing. just my opinion-- just because the practice may be legal in a country does not mean that the church will authorize its members in that country to follow the practice. not exactly comparable, but I recall President Hinckley, in a Priesthood meeting, telling the brethren that when you join the church, you leave behind (are supposed to) any customs or practices that are not in keeping with church doctrine. Bob Taylor ** There are no coincidences, only small miracles. Author Unknown ** // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] An Illustrious Group
John W. Redelfs wrote: Tom Valletta has just joined us. Welcome, Tom! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
