from:"Steven Montgomery"


At 07:46 AM 10/15/2002, Paul wrote:


Well, you know me--I'm NOT into conspiracy theories at all. Wasn't it so
that Elder Benson was all alone in his campaign or which of the other
apostles stood by his side and declared the same message? You know what I
mean--two or three witnesses. Was his campaign overseen by the First
Presidency including the one he belonged to? I don't believe it was.

Below are six statements from President Ezra Taft Benson regarding a world- 
wide conspiracy that is increasing its evil influence and control over 
America and the entire world. These warnings have come to us from God 
through His living prophet. All six statements came after his call in 1985 
to be President of the Church. They cannot be safely ignored. Without an 
understanding of these prophetic warnings, we cannot correctly interpret 
national and world events. President Benson's apostolic statements during 
the 42 years prior to his becoming President of the Church are also helpful 
as we seek to understand his prophetic statements on this important 
subject. Many of these apostolic statements were keynote addresses made 
with the full support, advice, and even explicit recommendation by 
President David O. McKay. Need two witnesses? Add David O. McKay as a 
second witness. During this time Elder Benson gave 15 General Conference 
addresses
and President McKay, over a dozen on freedom, free enterprise, fiscal 
responsibility, the Constitution, and agency. They invariably tied these 
topics into showing the evils of secret combinations. (Sheri Dew, Ezra Taft 
Benson: A Biography, Deseret Book, 1987, pp. 366,367.) Finally, God does 
not call as Prophets men who teach false doctrine.

1. Secret Combinations

 Oct. 1986: From the Book of Mormon we see the evils of secret 
combinations portrayed in graphic and chilling reality . . . . We should 
constantly ask ourselves, 'Why did the Lord inspire Mormon (or Moroni or 
Alma) to include that in his record? What lesson can I learn from that to 
help me live in this day and age?' (Conference Report, Oct. 1986, Ensign, 
Nov. 1986, pp. 6-7; also The Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, p. 59.)

 April 1989: Secret combinations . . . are built up to get power, gain, 
and glory of the world. (See Hel. 7:5; Ether 8:9, 16, 22-23; Moses 5:31.) . 
. . Secret combinations brought down both the Jaredite and the Nephite 
civilizations and [have] been and will yet be the cause of the fall of many 
nations. (See Ether 8:18-25.) (Conference Report, Oct. 1989, Ensign, May 
1989, p. 6.)

 Jan. 1988: The situation in the world will continue to degenerate unless 
we read and heed the words of God and quit building up and upholding secret 
combinations, which the Book of Mormon tells us proved the downfall of 
ancient civilizations. (The Book of Mormon Is the Word of God, Ensign, 
Jan. 1988, p. 5.)

 April 1986: Our nation will continue to degenerate unless we read and 
heed the words of the God of this land, Jesus Christ, and quit building up 
and upholding the secret combinations which the Book of Mormon tells us 
proved the downfall of both previous American civilizations. (The Book of 
Mormon Is the Word of God, Regional Representative Seminar, Friday, April 
4, 1986, pp. 3-4; as quoted in The Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, p. 61.)

 Oct. 1988: Wickedness is rapidly expanding in every segment of our 
society. (See DC 1:14- 16; 84:49-53.) It is more highly organized, more 
cleverly disguised, and more powerfully promoted than ever before. Secret 
combinations lusting for power, gain, and glory are flourishing. A secret 
combination that seeks to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and 
countries is increasing its evil influence and control over America and the 
entire world. (See Ether 8:18-25.) (Conference Report, Oct. 1988, Ensign, 
Nov. 1988, p. 87; italics added.)

 April 1987: Secret combinations flourished because, as Helaman tells us, 
the Gadianton robbers 'had seduced the more part of the righteous until 
they had come down to believe in their works and partake of their spoils' 
(Helaman 6:38). (Conference Report, April 1987, Ensign, May 1987, p. 4; 
italics added.)



--
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Re: [ZION] The Rulers of Darkness


At 06:32 PM 10/15/2002, you wrote:
  Jan. 1988: The situation in the world will continue to degenerate
unless
 we read and heed the words of God and quit building up and upholding
secret
 combinations, which the Book of Mormon tells us proved the downfall of
 ancient civilizations. (The Book of Mormon Is the Word of God,
Ensign,
 Jan. 1988, p. 5.)


Does this make President Bush a Gadianton? NOPE!

It simply says that we are to read the scriptures and to not give in to
the tempations of Babylon or it will destroy us.

Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

By their fruits ye shall know them. The Bush administration is loaded with 
CFR members and is every inch an establishment man. 
http://www.thenewamerican.com/tna/2000/07-17-2000/vo16no15_bush.htm


--
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Re: [ZION] The Rulers of Darkness


At 06:36 PM 10/15/2002, you wrote:
 Oct. 1988: Wickedness is rapidly expanding in every segment of our
 society. (See DC 1:14- 16; 84:49-53.) It is more highly organized, more

 cleverly disguised, and more powerfully promoted than ever before.
Secret
 combinations lusting for power, gain, and glory are flourishing. A
secret
 combination that seeks to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations,
and
 countries is increasing its evil influence and control over America and
the
 entire world. (See Ether 8:18-25.) (Conference Report, Oct. 1988,
Ensign,
 Nov. 1988, p. 87; italics added.)


No where here are individuals of our government targeted. It simply says
that wickedness is expanding in all parts of society and that does not
necessarily mean the government only. The prophet was not specific. I'm
glad. because I don't want to know.

Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Prime targets of the Secret Combinations are the organs of power. Gain 
control of the government and you gain control of the rest of society.

Helaman 6: 39  And thus they did obtain the sole management of the 
government, insomuch that they did trample under their feet and smite and 
rend and turn their backs upon the poor and the meek, and the humble 
followers of God.




--
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Re: [ZION] The Rulers of Darkness


At 06:53 PM 10/15/2002, you wrote:

 destruction of the people, but notice how he singled out the secret
 combinations, just as the Church today could point out many threats to
 peace, prosperity, and the spread of God's work, but it has singled out
 as
 the greatest threat the Godless conspiracy. There is no conspiracy
theory
 in the Book of Mormonit is a conspiracy fact.



I seek to live by the principles of the Book of Mormon. A man can get
closer to God by abiding the precepts therein than any other book. I'll
leave the conspiracies to the prophets since they seem to know so much
about them. If the Lord wills it-- let the prophets go out and fight our
battles by approaching the beasts, false prophets, and Gadiantons. The
power is in their hands.

Notice how he said that they threaten the spread of God's work? Sound
like Iraq to me. All in all you have failed to make your case. The church
does not have a program in place for LDS people to get involved in
conspiracy facts or theories. We are too busy raising our families and
trying to be good. We are too busy trying to be politically correct so
everyone will like the Mormons. Let the prophet go up against the beast!
Count me out!

Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

President Ezra Taft Benson has reminded:

The Prophet Joseph Smith is reported to have prophesied the role the 
priesthood might play to save our inspired Constitution. Now is the time to 
move forward courageouslyto become alerted, informed, and active.

The Lord's priesthood has a mission to perform for liberty-loving people 
everywhere. We cannot, any more than Jonah of old, run away from our 
calling. (The Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, p. 620; italics added.)

On another occasion, President Benson said:

Any Christian constitutionalist who retreats from this battle jeopardizes 
his life here and hereafter. Seldom has so much responsibility hung on so 
few, so heavily; but our numbers are increasing, and we who have been 
warned have a responsibility to warn our neighbor (see DC 88:81). (Ibid., 
p. 591.)

[The] divine duty to be a faithful fighter for freedom requires that those 
of us who have been warned do our duty to warn our neighbor. (Ibid., p. 657.)

 Righteousness is important. In fact, President Benson has said repeatedly 
that righteousness is the one indispensable ingredient to liberty. (Ibid, 
p. 346; see also pp. 416  588.)

How, asks the Prophet, can we best befriend the Constitution in this 
critical hour and secure the blessings of liberty? (Ibid., p. 621.) The 
Prophet answers his own question: First and foremost, we must be 
righteous. (Ibid.; italics in original.)

It has been suggested, however, that the fundamental principles of the 
Constitution will be upheld and the nation will be saved as members of the 
Church simply live the gospel. President Benson has responded to this 
suggestion as follows:

Satan is anxious to neutralize the inspired counsel of the prophet and 
hence keep the priesthood off balance, ineffective, and inert in the fight 
for freedom. He does this through diverse means, including the use of 
perverse reasoning.

For example, he will argue, 'There is no need to get involved in the fight 
for freedom;all you need to do is live the gospel.' Of course this is a 
contradiction, because we cannot fully live the gospel and not be involved 
in the fight for freedom.

We would not say to someone, -There is no need to be baptized-;all you need 
to do is live the gospel.' That would be ridiculous because baptism is a 
part of the gospel. How would you have reacted if during the War in Heaven 
someone had said to you, -Look, just do what is right; there is no need to 
get involved in the fight for free agency.' It is obvious what the devil is 
trying to do, but it is sad to see many of us fall for his destructive line.

The cause of freedom is a most basic part of our religion. Our position on 
freedom helped get us to this earth and it can make the difference as to 
whether we get back home or not. (Ibid., p. 656.)

 And finally, President Benson has warned:

One of our most serious problems is the inferiority complex which people 
feel when they are not informed and organized. They dare not make a 
decision on these vital issues. They let other people think for them. They 
stumble around in the middle of the road trying to avoid being 
'controversial,' and get hit by traffic going both ways. In this mighty 
struggle each of you has a part. Every person on the earth today chose the 
right side during the War in Heaven. Be on the right side now. Stand up and 
be counted. (Ibid., p. 387.)


--
Steven Montgomery
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Re: [ZION] The Rulers of Darkness

2002-10-16 Thread Steven Montgomery


The placement of U.S. Missiles in Turkey.  At least that's the pat answer 
the leftists always give. This answer however, is similar to the one given 
for taking over the countries of eastern Europe--that they needed buffer 
states to prevent against western aggression and hides the fact that the 
USSR was an imperialistic country.  The real reason the Soviets put 
missiles in Cuba is that is was part of their expansionist policies.

--
Steven Montgomery

At 09:13 AM 10/16/2002, you wrote:
I know what you mean, but technically Khrushchev had nothing to do with the
embargo of Cuba, which was put into place by the U.S. I think you mean the
emplacement of missiles there. But what very few USAmericans realize, and what
you apparently aren't taught is that this was in reprisal for something. 
Trivia
time, boys and girls: anybody know what the original US action was that 
prompted
the emplacement of missiles in Cuba?

Paul Osborne wrote:

  I think you have a Pollyanna view of Prophets and their role. In 1959,
  at
  President McKay's request, [then] Elder Ezra Taft Benson welcomed and
  shook
  hands with the butcher of the Ukraine, Nikita Kruschev. More recently,
  at
  the Polynesian Cultural Center in Hawaii, Church leaders met with some
  of
  the leaders of the murderous Communist Chinese regime. So what? The
  First
  Presidency meets with a lot of people in an official capacity, not all
  of
  them righteous upstanding individuals, and a few of them with hearts
  full
  of murder.
 
  Well, I don't know much about Kruschev other than he backed down against
  the blockade in Cuba. Whether he is a murderer or not is not for me to
  decide. Same thing goes for the Chinese leaders. And if the prophet does
  shake hands with murderers--all I can say is I am terribly disappointed
  and I disapprove. Oh well. I suppose that these guys you call murderers
  have already been baptized by proxy?
 
  What a deal. :-(
 
  Paul O
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
  
 
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--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and
falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark.
--Michelangelo Buonarroti

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author's 
employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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--
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RE: [ZION] The Rulers of Darkness

2002-10-16 Thread Steven Montgomery


At 09:02 PM 10/16/2002, you wrote:
After careful consideration, Stephen Beecroft wrote:
Actually, I don't love my own sarcasm. What comes out of my fingertips
sounding silly and a bit over-the-top to me ends up seeming much more
acidic and unpleasant than intended. You'd think I would learn to avoid
sarcasm, since I can't seem to dilute it down enough.

Well, I happen to like sarcasm as long as it doesn't get too personal and 
hurt too much.  My maternal grandfather was heavily into sarcasm and I 
appreciate the humor as long as it is directed elsewhere. grin  Jim 
Cobabe is really good at it too.


John W. Redelfs[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Let me pipe in and add that I love the facility that both Jim and Stephen 
have with the english language. Would that I could craft sentences so well.




--
Steven Montgomery
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Re: [ZION] Voting and Parties

2002-10-23 Thread Steven Montgomery

At 07:36 PM 10/23/2002, you wrote:

IMO, I agree with President George Washington in his Farewell Address,
that we should shun political parties. All they have done is divide the
nation along a single line without as much as a care for actual platform.
Too many people vote for a party, simply because their parents did. Very
few vote for the character of the individual or that person's individual
platform.

Just because a party has a platform does not mean the individual holds to
it. Whatever happened to George Bush's promise to help the schools?
Instead, he turned the process over to Ted Kennedy and the Democrats'
pro-teacher's-union platform to decide what to do. We didn't get what was
promised, and most people have forgotten, because they are tied to the
party, rather than the policies.

Instead of passing laws to protect us from terrorism and to fund the war
on it, the two parties are fighting over platform issues: should the new
workers be unionized? Should we throw in money for after school programs,
so we can help the incumbents get reelected? Instead of hitting the real
issues, we have Daschle attacking inane items; and we have the
Republicans ignoring the economy in order to win the election through the
war on terrorism.

Finally, without parties, we would be able to have more people run for
office and have a chance of winning. We wouldn't need campaign reform,
because money would be tied to the individual and not to a political
party and its abuses. And we wouldn't have the crimes of an elected
leader protected by a political party, whether it is Nixon or Clinton, if
one is guilty of crimes, the entire Congress should honestly investigate
it and do their job; not sweep sins under the carpet in order to protect
the party.

One more thing. We need to put term limits on all Congress. One term for
Senate, two for House. Then we wouldn't have people fighting to keep
themselves forever in office, and it would reduce the amount of voter
bribes. New Senators and Congressmen have a vision to fix America. Old
ones are mostly interested in keeping their position.

K'aya K'ama,
Gerald/gary  Smith


I'd like to see the electoral college used the way the framers 
intended--each state would decide how their particular electoral college 
representatives would be elected, and then these representatives would vote 
for president. This way the chances are a better candidate would be elected 
rather than mediocre or poor candidates who might look better or have that 
certain popular charisma than more qualified but less popularly appealing 
candidates.

We don't need term limits. We already have term limits if the people so 
choose--their vote.



--
Steven Montgomery
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Nations are defined by their founders. George Washington set a standard of
selfless public service and heroic private virtue against which American
politicians continue to be measured - and found wanting - even today. 
--Steven W. Mosher 

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Re: [ZION] Definition of liberal

2002-10-23 Thread Steven Montgomery

At 08:25 PM 10/23/2002, you wrote:

Unfortunately, it is what Liberal now means in the US.

It used to be that liberal was one that sought to help the underdog with
smart assistance from government, while ensuring the freedoms of the
average joe. But the term liberal has been co-opted by fringe groups in
the US. Gore is a perfect example of what liberal now means in the US:
follows the extreme environmental tactics, reproductive rights, and the
rights of perverse groups.


Actually our founding fathers (U.S.) were perfect examples of the classical 
liberal. Etymology wise the word has roots in the more meaningful term, 
liberty.

Constitutionalism. I want to be known as a constitutionalist in the 
tradition of James Madison-father of the Constitution. Labels change and 
perhaps in the old tradition I would be considered one of the original 
Whigs. The new title I would wear today is that of conservative-though in 
its original British connotation the term liberal fits me better than the 
original meaning of the word conservative.
To show how labels can change or be stolen, a liberal today believes in 
greater government intervention and less personal freedom for the people, 
which is practically the opposite of what the old liberals believed years 
ago. (The Red Carpet, pp. 206-7.)
 (Ezra Taft Benson, The Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson [Salt Lake City: 
Bookcraft, 1988], 690.)


--
Steven Montgomery
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Re: [ZION] War in Iraq

At 05:39 PM 10/21/2002, JWR wrote:

At 12:03 PM, Monday, 10/21/02, Marc A. Schindler wrote:

I keep asking why Pakistan isn't being targetted instead of Iraq. We can
add another piece of turtle meat to the fire: there is at least the
accusation that Pakistan supplied North Korea with its light gas
centrifugal technology (which it got from the US) which is used to
produce enriched uranium. Pakistan has denied it. The US is also
accusing China of helping North Korea, but I can't see how a nuclear war
in the region would be to Beijing's advantage.


It is worse than that.  Pakistan got The Bomb from China who got The Bomb 
from us.

And according to Major Racey Jordan (_Major Jordan's Diaries_), who flew 
lend-lease supply missions from Alaska to the Soviet Union, the Soviet's 
were given all the materials, plans and specifications to build their own 
Atomic Bomb--a direct result of Harry Hopkin's involvement in the process.



--
Steven Montgomery
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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politicians continue to be measured - and found wanting - even today. 
--Steven W. Mosher 

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Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey

At 06:35 PM 10/21/2002, you wrote:

Steven, Cliff can speak for himself, but I for one will not be intimidated by
spiritual harrassment. My testimony is not up to you to define with 
idiosyncratic
and isolated proof-texts.  In any case, the claim wasn't whether Castro *said*
he'd been a Communist all his life, it's whether it was a fact or not. 
Naturally
by 1962 he would have said something like this because he'd signed the 
treaty of
friendship with the Soviet Union. This is the second time I've addressed this.
You can choose to believe me or not, but the courtesy of a response would be
appreciated, rather than just repeating the same old charge.

Just think: Cuba could have been a democracy except for your meddling.

Right. And Fidel Castro was the George Washington of Cuba. NOT!

I've already showed you where there was overwhelming evidence that when 
Fidel Castro took power in January 1959 that he had been a Communist agent 
at least since 1948, when he led a bloody Communist uprising in Bogota, 
Colombia. It is common practice among revolutionaries to pretend they are 
democratic in order to help them slide into power. Once in power Castro's 
true colors came out.



--
Steven Montgomery
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politicians continue to be measured - and found wanting - even today. 
--Steven W. Mosher 

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Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey

At 06:57 PM 10/21/2002, Marc wrote:


But I'm not the one quoting general authorities in an attempt to back up my
political and historical opinions. You are. Logically speaking, you are, in
effect, challenging me to criticize Pres. Benson. I'm not going to fall 
into that
trap. (I take it that in your response you are the messenger and Pres. 
Benson
the sources?)


--
Marc A. Schindler

ETB knew about Castro's communist connections because both the U.S. 
Ambassadors to Cuba and Mexico warned him about the connections.  Okay, 
forget about the Benson quote. Forget I mentioned it. Perhaps it was a 
lapse of judgement on my part.

What about the other evidence that Castro was a communist?



--
Steven Montgomery
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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politicians continue to be measured - and found wanting - even today. 
--Steven W. Mosher 

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Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey

At 07:36 PM 10/21/2002, you wrote:

At 06:57 PM 10/21/2002, Marc wrote:


But I'm not the one quoting general authorities in an attempt to back up my
political and historical opinions. You are. Logically speaking, you are, in
effect, challenging me to criticize Pres. Benson. I'm not going to fall 
into that
trap. (I take it that in your response you are the messenger and Pres. 
Benson
the sources?)


--
Marc A. Schindler

ETB knew about Castro's communist connections because both the U.S. 
Ambassadors to Cuba and Mexico warned him about the connections.  Okay, 
forget about the Benson quote. Forget I mentioned it. Perhaps it was a 
lapse of judgement on my part.

What about the other evidence that Castro was a communist?



--
Steven Montgomery

On second thought, why should I apologize for quoting ETB? After all, this 
is an LDS religious list, is it not? In your postings with the Subject 
line, Cult of Personality, you've made great noise about the fact that 
sometimes even General Authorities can disagree on political matters. Fine, 
I accept that, and believe it. Trouble is, where is the General Authority 
who disagrees with ETB regarding this particular issue, that of Fidel 
Castro being a communist? I haven't been able to find one. Perhaps there is 
a general consensus then?



--
Steven Montgomery
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Nations are defined by their founders. George Washington set a standard of
selfless public service and heroic private virtue against which American
politicians continue to be measured - and found wanting - even today. 
--Steven W. Mosher 

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Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey

2002-10-22 Thread Steven Montgomery

At 12:03 AM 10/22/2002, Marc wrote:


What difference does that make to the point I've been trying to make that 
it was
US meddling that paved the way to his [Castro's] rise to power?

We have no argument here. I agree. Although probably for different reasons.



--
Steven Montgomery
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Nations are defined by their founders. George Washington set a standard of
selfless public service and heroic private virtue against which American
politicians continue to be measured - and found wanting - even today. 
--Steven W. Mosher 

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Re: [ZION] Cult of personality

2002-10-22 Thread Steven Montgomery

At 12:25 PM 10/22/2002, Marc wrote regarding the website www.rescue007.org:



AFAI am concerned, the site's purpose is to sell a book. But when I get to the
other side I'll look for any KAL 007 vets. Who knows.


I don't think the site sell's enough books to pay for itself. The reason 
Bert Schlossberg is interested in this subject is that he was the son in 
law of one of the passengers on the plane. Since he was closely connected 
to the Israeli Research Center for Prisons, Psychprisons, and Forced Labor 
Concentration Camps of the USSR, and its director Avraham Shifrin, 
Schlossberg was able to follow closely the revelations about KAL 007, its 
landing and the survival of those aboard. Interestingly enough former 
Soviet military personnel who started to immigrate to Israel kept up a 
steady flow of information  Reports of survivors and other information 
about KAL007 began to flow into Israel when former Soviet Military 
personnel began arriving as immigrants and becoming citizens of Israel. He 
holds a masters degree near eastern studies and currently teaches Aramaic, 
Syriac and Hebrew at Israel College of the Bible. (See his short bio: 
http://www.rescue007.org/bert_schlossberg.htm)

As I mentioned Schlossberg has no connection with the John Birch Society, 
but interestingly enough the JBS have maintained for years that there are 
many unanswered questions about what really happened to flight KAL007: 
http://www.thenewamerican.com/focus/mcdonald/kal/index.htm


--
Steven Montgomery
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Secret combinations . . . are built up to get power, gain, and glory of 
the world. (See Hel. 7:5; Ether 8:9, 16, 22-23; Moses 5:31.) . . . Secret 
combinations brought down both the Jaredite and the Nephite civilizations 
and [have] been and will yet be the cause of the fall of many nations. (See 
Ether 8:18-25.) (President Ezra Taft Benson, Conference Report, Oct. 1989, 
Ensign, May 1989, p. 6.)

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Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey

2002-10-22 Thread Steven Montgomery

At 11:58 PM 10/21/2002, Marc wrote:



Straw man, Steven. I have never tried to argue that Castro is not 
Communist, is not
a dictator. We are talking right past each other. I'm admitting all the 
bad things
you are saying about him, but saying that the US had a large -- indeed, 
the major
-- part to play in paving the way for him to come to power. You could have
prevented it by nurturing democracy but you chose instead to nurture 
tyranny. I
don't care what colour you paint the giant bronze statue in the town square --
Communist red is the same as Fascist brown  or Plutocratic green and gold 
in my
books.

Then what are we arguing about? Because I generally agree with your 
position here. Gadianton Robbers located in the U.S. *did* have a great 
part to play in Castro coming to power. Just as they played a part in the 
Bolshevik revolution and helping Mao come to power. Such was the general 
thesis in books such as, _None Dare Call It Conspiracy_, _The Naked 
Capitalist_, and others.



--
Steven Montgomery
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Nations are defined by their founders. George Washington set a standard of
selfless public service and heroic private virtue against which American
politicians continue to be measured - and found wanting - even today. 
--Steven W. Mosher 

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Re: [ZION] UN Moral Authority

2002-10-24 Thread Steven Montgomery

At 09:22 PM 10/23/2002, Marc wrote:


the UN Security Council). Nation states are dying as institutions, and 
power is
flowing up to super-regions, and down to micro-regions, so the question 
will come
to make even less and less sense as the new century unfolds, imo.

--
Marc A. Schindler

I agree, and believe you are right. Although we would probably disagree on 
the causes.



--
Steven Montgomery
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: [ZION] Jerusalem temple

2002-10-26 Thread Steven Montgomery

At 04:58 PM 10/25/2002, Paul wrote:

I don't believe the Jews could build a temple unto the Lord. If the
Catholics can't do it, neither can the Jews. Don't you believe Elder
McConkie when he said the temple would be built by the Church?

Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


Personally, I don't know how the temple will be built in Jerusalem. I lean 
towards McConkie's view but I think we need to separate doctrine from 
speculation. BRM may be right but his view is not official gospel doctrine.



--
Steven Montgomery
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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[ZION] Isaiah Study Resource

2002-10-27 Thread Steven Montgomery

Check out Ivan D. Sanderson's magnificent Isaiah study site: 
http://isaiah.1hwy.com/


--
Steven Montgomery
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

. . . it is as much their [The Elders of Israel] duty to study correct 
political principles as well as religion, and to seek and know and 
comprehend the social and political interests of man, and to learn and be 
able to teach that which would be best calculated to promote the interests 
of the world.--John Taylor

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Re: [ZION] Iraq: letters in Meridian

2002-10-31 Thread Steven Montgomery

Things have changed indeed. Got any good job openings up there in maple 
leaf land?

--
Steven Montgomery

At 02:40 PM 10/31/2002, you wrote:
You really don't want to get into this again. I'd rather face a guy with a 
bat than
a guy with a firearm. Common sense. Ironically, a Canadian is now in a New 
York
state jail because he brought his hunting rifle with him as he crossed the 
border
to fill up at a gas station 15 metres from the border. The actual border 
crossing
is about a kilometre further down the road, and locals had been using this gas
station for years, as the gas prices in Quebec are quite high.

But things have changed -- you're losing your freedoms. Our foreign 
affairs people
are advising Canadian citizens who were born in the Middle East not to 
travel via
the US. One, a man originally from Syria, was enroute from Damascus, where 
he'd
been visiting family (the first time he'd been there since he left, as a 
child),
and was deported from JFK back to Syria. Canadian consular officials 
weren't even
informed, in direct violation of the Vienna Convention.

It's a pretty sad state of affairs when we pinko socialists have more 
freedom than
you do.

John W. Redelfs wrote:

 At 08:46 PM, Wednesday, 10/30/02, Marc A. Schindler wrote:
 Marc A. Schindler
 Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
 
 Guns don't kill people; people with guns kill people.

 And people with knives.  And people with rocks.  And people with 
baseball bats.

 A few years ago here in Ketchikan Ward, a member who had not attended
 church since he was a teenager, tried to rob a local man.  There was a
 struggle.  The robber picked up a rock and hit his intended victim on the
 head, and he died.  And just last year there were 3 or 4 murders.  One of
 the victims was just beat to death.  It doesn't take a gun to kill
 people.  All it takes is a murderer.  And if we take away their guns, they
 will just murder using something else.

 Did anyone read in the newspaper about six months ago about a playground
 rampage in Japan?  I think about 13 children we killed, and the murderer
 used a knife, not a gun.

 What we need is murderer control, not gun control.

 John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 ===
 I don't think I'm alone when I say I'd like to see more
 and more planets fall under the ruthless domination of
 our solar system. --Jack Handy
 ===
 All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR

 
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Re: [ZION] Imagine that!

2002-11-01 Thread Steven Montgomery

They must be stepping up their attack of these scam letters. I usually 
receive one or two of these a year, but, for some odd reason, just in the 
last few weeks I've received several.

--
Steven Montgomery

At 08:25 PM 10/31/2002, you wrote:
I know there's a lot of hilarity in this thread, but in all seriousness, you
should let your local authorities know -- I presume that means the FBI in your
case. The Nigerian scam has been going on since the early '80s when we used to
get faxed letters from Nigeria where I worked (no, wait a minute -- I 
worked in
*Ottawa*, not *Lagos*, although I've been to Lagos. Armpit of the world. I 
would
never go back there again, but I digress).

In Canada the RCMP has a unit dedicated to tracking these and trying to 
promote
awareness of it (you would be surprised at what a potent combination 
naivete and
greed can be). It's morphed into other versions, too. The cutest I've seen is
supposedly from the widow of Mobuto Sese Seko who needs help unfreezing her
husband's illicitly stashed gazillions in Swiss banks with serpentine
bureaucrazies and byzantine regulations. Fees for this, and fees for that, and
before you know it you're starting to pawn off the fleet of Bentleys...

Canadians are urged to forward anything like this they get to the RCMP -- see
http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/scams/nigerian.htm for further information.

Jim Cobabe wrote:

 An interesting note in my mailbox today...

 Since I'm already independently wealthy, I have no interest in this
 unique investment opportunity.  No need to be selfish, I said to myself.
  Perhaps someone else could benefit from the promised 5 million dollars.

 In all honesty, even if these crooks delivered on their promises, I
 figure the government and my exwife would claim all the money, leaving
 me with only the legal liability and bureacratic snarls.

 But I was wondering--where exactly is Lagos?  Sounds like a toy for
 children.

 ;-


 Included Text

  CONFIDENTIAL

 25 randle Street,
 victoria Island,
 Lagos.

 IFax:17756401249

  30/10/2002

 ATTN:THE PRESIDENT/CEO

 FROM:JOHN MAYAKI.

 Dear Sir,

 I would like to firstly send to you the best wishes of good
 health and success in your pursuits particularly through
 my proposal as contained in this letter.

 Before going into details of my proposal to you, I must
 first implore you to treat with the utmost confidentiality
 as this is required for its success and to have faith in
 this transaction,for opportunities
 like this only comes to one once in a life time.

 My colleagues and I are senior officials of the Federal
 Government of my country's Contracts Review Panel (CRP) who
 are interested in diverting some funds that are presently
 floating in the accounts of the Apex Bank of my country.In
 order to commence this transaction,
 we solicit for your assistance to enable us transfer into
 your nominated account the said floating funds. We are
 determined to conclude the transfer before the end of this
 quarter of 2002.
 The source of the funds are as follows: During the last
 military regime in my country,government officials set up
 companies and awarded themselves contracts that were
 grossly over-invoiced in various ministries and
 parastatals.The present civilian government set up the
 Contract Review Panel, which has the mandate to use the
 instruments of payments made available to it by the decree
 setting up the panel, to review these contracts and if
 necessary pay those who are being owed outstanding amounts.

 My colleagues and I have identified quite a huge sum of
 these funds which are presently floating in our (Apex)
 Central Bank ready for disbursement and would like to
 divert some of it for our own purposes. However, by virtue
 of our positions as civil servants
 and members of this panel, we cannot acquire these funds
 in our names or in the names of companies that are based
 in my country. I have therefore been mandated,as a matter
 of trust by my colleagues in
 the panel, to look for a reliable overseas partner into
 whose account we can transfer the sum of
 U.S.$20,500,000.00 (Twenty
 million, five hundred thousand U.S. dollars).That is why I
 am seeking your assistance. We have agreed to share the
 money to be transferred into your account, if you agree
 with our proposition as follows;
 (i)25% to the account owner(you).
 (ii)65% for us (the panel officials).
 (iii)10% to be used in settling all expenses (by both
 you and us) incidental to the actualization of this
 project.

 We wish to invest our share of the proceeds of this project
 in foreign stock markets and other viable business till we
 are ready and able to have access to them without raising
 any eyebrows here at home. Please note that this
 transaction is 100% safe and risk-free.
 We intend to effect the transfer within fourteen (14)
 banking days from the date of receipt of the following
 information through the ifax number stated above:Your
 company's name,address,telephone and
 fax

RE: [ZION] Bible vs the Scientists

2002-11-07 Thread Steven Montgomery

At 09:39 AM 11/7/2002, Jim cogently stated:


Seems to me that the contention in this discussion is mostly based on
semantic quibbling.

We're talking about written records of history.  Every incident and
story related in these records is entirely symbolic.  The words and
letters that comprise a written text or an oral narrative are symbols.
Thus it is entirely accurate to say that scriptures are symbolic.

In this context, the argument between literal and symbolic or
figurative loses most of its edge.  It is academic that every bit of
information has to be processed and interpreted.  Scriptures are no
different.  Thus they might accurately be characterized as both
symbolic and literal at the same time.  This argument does nothing
to address the question of how we should approach the scriptural record.



I certainly believe that events written about in the Bible can be both 
actual literal events and yet symbolic at the same time. Why are we so 
hasty to assume that since there is no physical evidence that the walls of 
Jericho tumbled that the event didn't occur. The Twin Towers in New York 
also collapsed but today there is little evidence that the collapse took 
place. Are archeologists of the future going to claim that the twin towers 
collapse never really happened--that it was all symbolic, perhaps of 
America's corruption? The Apostle Paul apparently thought that events of 
the Bible could be both literal and symbolic:

(Galatians 4:22-26.)
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the 
other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the 
freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one 
from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which 
now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Elder Bruce R. McConkie also stated in reference to the above scripture 
that the family makeup and life of Abraham was both literal (actually 
occurred) and symbolic of the two covenants (The Law of Moses and the New 
and Everlasting Covenant):

Paul here uses the life of Abraham as an allegory to dramatize the 
superiority of the gospel over the law of Mosesa mode of teaching designed 
to drive his doctrine home anew each time his hearers think of Abraham and 
his life.

Hagar, the bondwoman, bore Ishmael; and Sarah, the freewoman, brought 
forth Isaac. Ishmael was born after the flesh, while Isaac, as a child of 
promise, came forth after the Spirit. Hagar is thus made to represent the 
old covenant, the law of Moses, the covenant under which men were subject 
to the bondage of sin; while Sarah symbolizes the new covenant, the gospel, 
the covenant under which men are made free, free from bondage and sin 
through Christ.

Mt. Sinai, from whence the law came, and Jerusalem, from whence it is now 
administered, symbolize the law, and their children are in bondage. But the 
spiritual Jerusalem, the heavenly city of which the saints shall be 
citizens, is symbolized by Sarah, and she is the mother of freemen. Sarah, 
who was so long barren, as our spiritual mother, has now made us all, like 
Isaac, heirs of promise.

But it is now, as it was then, those born after the flesh war against those 
born of the Spirit. And as God rejected Ishmael and accepted Isaac, so does 
he now reject those who cleave to the law of Moses and accept those who 
turn to Christ.

The two covenants: The first is the old covenant, the law of Moses, the law 
of carnal commandments, the preparatory gospel, the covenant God made with 
Israel, through Moses, to prepare them for the second. The second is the 
new covenant, the everlasting covenant, the fulness of the gospel, the 
covenant God offers to make with all men, through Christ, to prepare them 
for the fulness of his glory. The old covenant was the lesser law, the new 
is the higher law. Moses was the mediator of the old covenant, standing 
between God and his people, pleading their cause, seeking to prepare them 
for the coming of their Messiah. Jesus is the mediator of the new covenant, 
standing between God and all men, pleading their cause, seeking to prepare 
them for that celestial inheritance reserved for the saints.
See Heb. 12:18-24.
(Bruce R. McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 3 vols. [Salt Lake 
City: Bookcraft, 1965-1973], 2: 478.)

In fact you could say that the history of Jacob and Esau, as well as 
Isaac and Ishmael are symbolic of the clash and conflict between Christ and 
Satan. Just because an event actually happened doesn't mean it can't also 
be highly symbolic--and vice versa.





--
Steven Montgomery
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Explore Freedom: http://www.geocities.com/graymada

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Re: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?

2002-11-07 Thread Steven Montgomery

At 06:33 PM 11/7/2002, JWR wrote:


How do you apply this reasoning to Jesus calling Lazarus forth from his 
tomb, or raising the daughter of Jairus?  Maybe these two were not really 
dead, but by the power of God they recovered while if it hadn't been for 
the blessing they would have died?  Is that what you believe? I personally 
believe that God performs miracles just like the parting of the Red Sea in 
our own day.

Or what about Elijah's contest with the priests of Baal? Perhaps fire was 
not really called down from heaven and consumed the sacrifice but it was 
all mere trickery by Elijah?


--
Steven Montgomery, in sarcasm mode
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?

At 09:31 AM 11/8/2002, you wrote:


 I'm not going to say Yes, of
 course the actual event happened as described, because it really doesn't
 matter. If it did, great; if not _so what_. I refuse to

The Book of Mormon prophets believed that the water actually parted for 
the Israelites but then closed in upon the Egyptians.  That's one reason 
why I think it matters.

1 Ne. 4: 2
 Therefore let us go up; let us be strong like unto Moses; for he truly 
spake unto the waters of the Red Sea and they divided hither and thither, 
and our fathers came through, out of captivity, on dry ground, and the 
armies of Pharaoh did follow and were drowned in the waters of the Red Sea.

1 Ne. 17: 26
Now ye know that Moses was commanded of the Lord to do that great work; 
and ye know that by his word the waters of the Red Sea were divided hither 
and thither, and they passed through on dry ground.

Hel. 8: 11
Therefore he was constrained to speak more unto them saying: Behold, my 
brethren, have ye not read that God gave power unto one man, even Moses, 
to smite upon the waters of the Red Sea, and they parted hither and 
thither, insomuch that the Israelites, who were our fathers, came through 
upon dry ground, and the waters closed upon the armies of the Egyptians 
and swallowed them up?

=  Mark Gregson  [EMAIL PROTECTED]  =

Or how about the words of the Lord Jesus Christ himself:

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 8:3)
3  Now, behold, this is the spirit of revelation; behold, this is the 
spirit by which Moses brought the children of Israel through the Red Sea on 
dry ground.





--
Steven Montgomery
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan

Not only that but what about the innocents who would undoubtedly lose their 
lives in such an attack?

--
Steven Montgomery

At 10:09 AM 11/8/2002, you wrote:
You weren't attacked by a nation. That's the problem.

Paul Osborne wrote:

 Actually he admitted it on a videotape played on Al-Jezeera television,
 out of
 Doha, Qatar, the day after. He'd prepared the video ahead of time, so
 there's not
 much doubt.

 Right. And, I'm in favor of nuclear strikes if necessary--if that's what
 it takes to knock out those people that support terrorism. And, I'm not
 kidding either. We should have just nuked those mountains instead of
 wasting time going up there to shoot them. We should demonstrate that an
 attack on US soil will be met with the greatest of force. Then, these
 punky nations will learn to fear us and police themselves a little
 better.

 Bomb em, nuke em-- and let em have it! And, I predict that Iraq is about
 to get it really good. You'll see. They deserve it too.

 Paul O
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 
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--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he 
will pick
himself up and continue on  Winston Churchill

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author's 
employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Best Arguments on Evolution

It is! How did you find out?

--
Steven Montgomery

At 12:31 PM 11/8/2002, you wrote:

He did. And I couldn't supply one.

It's kind of like saying that the answer to life, the universe and
everything is 42.

Steven Montgomery wrote:

I thought John asked for a single best source on the subject, both pro
and con? grin

--
Steven Montgomery

At 10:43 AM 11/8/2002, you wrote:
Strictly speaking, I honestly don't know, because I don't consider
evolution to
be a moral issue which one is converted to -- it's just a toolset for
approaching one question on how the physical world works, like any other
theory.
You probably suspected I'd respond that way, but it's true. Also, it's
difficult
to give a succinct summary of such a complex theory in this kind of
forum --
there's just too much that has to be taught in terms of principles, and
I'm not
sure I'm up to it. But in the *spirit* of your request...

I wouldn't suggest this for a beginner, but the best and most up-to-date
general
actual textbook, meant for university courses, is probably the
relatively new,
but very long book that Stephen Jay Gould published just before he
died, The
Structure of Evolutionary Theory. (see
http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/item.asp?Catalog=BooksSection=BooksCa
t=Lang=enItem=978067400613mscssid=7EWCQDA2HCDH9N0KVA6BR44QDALM242AWSID=12118329ED39C4EC4ACA9E25931C6F6D34DA1308
for a description). I believe it's used at BYU for Zoology 475, which
is the
evolution course taught by Drs. Whiting and Jeffery this semester,
from what I
understand. (For the course's web site, from which you can also get
the BYU
package, see http://zoology.byu.edu/zool475/)

If you're interested in apologetics in the sense of
anti-creationism, the
talk.origins website is one of the best on-line resources that I know of.
http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs-qa.html -- they have some good
FAQs on
various topics.

The best LDS book I've read, which has the advantage that it doesn't just
cover
evolution, but other scientific topics, including the Big Bang, is Clark,
David
L.; ed. Of Heaven and Earth: Reconciling Scientific Thought With LDS
Theology
(Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1998). I have a review and some
excerpts at:
http://www.members.shaw.ca/mschindler/A/Of Heaven and Earth.htm

There are two good books by non-LDS on the topic, and they have the
advantage of
being inexpensive paperbacks and not overly long and not overly technical:

(Gould, the late well-known Harvard palaeontologist, described himself
as a
secular Jewish agnostic, but he's the one who coined the term
Non-overlapping
Magisteria (NOMA). He was not the first to refer to the concept,
however -- I
have citations from a RC cardinal who tried to help Galileo (who was
his own
worst enemy in many ways), and also, intriguingly, the 1931 letter from
the Heber
J. Grant 1Presidency to all GAs which is quoted in the article Evolution
in the
Encyclopedia of Mormonism. Miller is, I believe, Catholic, but
definitely a
believer. He's also a biochemist).

Stephen Jay Gould, Rocks of Ages: Science and Religion in the Fullness
of Life
(New York: Ballantine Books, 1999). I'm reading this now and will post a
review
to my website when I'm finished.

Miller, Kenneth. Finding Darwin's God: a Scientist's Search for Common
Ground
Between God and Evolution (New York: HarperCollins, 1999). (I have a
review of
this, along with some excerpts, on my website:
http://www.members.shaw.ca/mschindler/A/miller.htm

For an interesting essay by a Latter-day Saint on why some GAs have taught
against evolution, see:
http://www.whyprophets.com/prophets/evolution.htm (I
like this because he agrees with me :-)). Seriously, he says there's a
common
conception of evolution which lay people have which is wrong and is a
straw man.
The GAs arguments have been, by and large, against this straw man, but
Chris
Tolworthy makes the argument that prophets can't always afford to let
themselves
get bogged down in detail and have to make a clear statement, and I
agree with
this (this is the flip side of being resistant to what I consider
over-literalistic interpretation; it also allows me to incorporate things
which
might at first disturb me, like what I saw to be the flat-out
ignorance of
Pres. Smith's Man: His Origin and Destiny, as I put it to my senior home
teaching
companion at the time.)

Ironically, one of the best lay explanations of evolution, although
it's a bit
outdated, was actually in an official Church magazine. You may recall that
before
the correlated new publications of Ensign/Liahona/New Era/Friend came
out, the
Sunday School had their own monthly, called The Instructor. Harrison,
Bertrand F.
The Relatedness of Living Things, The Instructor, July 1965: 272-276
is an
explanation of how evolution works. I have it online at:
http://www.members.shaw.ca/mschindler/A/eyring_11.htm

And Pres. Stephen L. Richards

Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan

At 06:32 PM 11/8/2002, you wrote:

Not only that but what about the innocents who would undoubtedly lose
their
lives in such an attack?


IMO, that's all part of the deal. War is hell but we must fight it to win
at minimal cost to our own side and if nuclear bombs will achieve that
end, I am all for it. Whoever attacks this country should be made to pay
the ultimate price and that will set the example for the rest of the
world and probably deter future wars. Nuclear explosions are merciful
because they vaporize a large part of the enemy quickly and get rid of
the problem right away. Everyone is so worried about the innocents.
THAT'S WAR! The Lord and Joshuah weren't worried about the innocents.
Slay them ALL! The object is to win and not take any chances of
loosing. It's dangerous for a bleeding heart liberal to lead troops in a
battle and expect victory. Take that wuss Jimmy Carter for example; Oh
blah! He sent some helicopters into Iran for a rescue and that was a big
fat joke. We should have bombed Iran and set the example back then and
declared the hostages war heros. Then we could have exacted tribute and
filled the coffers of American banks as a further punishment against our
enemies. You mark my words--Iran is going to be a real problem for us in
the not so distant future. We Americans will pay for our failure to bomb
them properly as we should have done.

Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


Very interesting, your approval of total warfare. I take it you also 
approved of the firebombing of Dresden, a non-important city strategically, 
where over 250,000 people, men, woman and children, including wounded who 
had been gathered there, lost their lives in two days?

Prior to the Civil War noncombatants were traditionally and legally by the 
laws of nations left alone. The concept of total war (targeting civilians 
as well as combatants) had its roots in the Civil War (when war would be 
poured out upon all nations) beginning with General Sherman's march to the 
sea.

At least one First Presidency member and noted Constitutional scholar, J. 
Reuben Clark has condemned total warfare. President Clark criticized the 
bombing of Dresden and other cities, even including Hiroshima and Nagasaki 
as unnecessary and barbaric. He stated on one occasion:

Quote
Is it not time in the world for a curb to be placed upon the narrow, 
fiendish concepts of militarists, and their evil lusts and passions by 
which they are constantly driven to plan and carry out ever increasing woe, 
misery, destruction, and slaughter of the aged, the infirm, the sick, the 
crippled? There are elements of good that must control the base in men, 
even in war. How long will their ears be deaf to the cries of the Christian 
conscience of the world, and to their own better instincts as men? How long 
will they challenge the eternal principle voiced by the Master two 
millenniums ago: 'With what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you 
again?' And again: 'Put up again thy sword into his place; for all they 
that take the sword shall perish with the sword. (J. Reuben Clark, 
Conference Report, October 1946, Afternoon Meeting)
/Quote

In addition he also criticized the United States for their role in 
perpetuating total war thusly:

Quote
Thus we in America are now deliberately searching out and developing the 
most savage, murderous means of exterminating peoples that Satan can plant 
in our minds. We do it not only shamelessly, but with a boast. God will not 
forgive us for this.
If we are to avoid extermination, if the world is not to be wiped out, we 
must find some way to curb the fiendish ingenuity of men who have 
apparently no fear of God, man, or the devil, and who are willing to plot 
and plan and invent instrumentalities that will wipe out all the flesh of 
the earth. And, as one American citizen of one hundred thirty millions, as 
one in one billion population of the world, I protest with all of the 
energy I possess against this fiendish activity, and as an American 
citizen, I call upon our government and its agencies to see that these 
unholy experimentations are stopped, and that somehow we get into the minds 
of our war-minded general staff and its satellites, and into the general 
staffs of all the world, a proper respect for human life.
(President J. Reuben Clark, Jr., Conference Report, October 1946, Afternoon 
Meeting 89.)
/Quote





--
Steven Montgomery
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Nations are defined by their founders. George Washington set a standard of
selfless public service and heroic private virtue against which American
politicians continue to be measured - and found wanting - even today. 
--Steven W. Mosher 

/
///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
///  http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html

RE: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?

At 07:18 PM 11/8/2002, you wrote:

After much pondering, Jim Cobabe favored us with:

This really is a hypothetical, sadly enough.  We apparently are not
currently faithful enough to commonly enjoy such precious manifestations
of the Spirit in our testimony meetings.  This is simply a
generalization of the notion I posited earler in repsonse to this
thread:  As a people, we are not blessed to understand the scriptures
because we fail to study them faithfully.


I agree with this.  Next time you are in sacrament meeting, evaluate each 
speaker.  Ask yourself how effectively he used the scriptures in his 
talk.  Give him a score on a 1 to 5 spectrum:  1=poor, 2=fair, 3=average, 
4=good, 5=outstanding.  Do this for each speaker and find the average for 
the meeting.  If your ward is anything like mine, the average is 
pathetic.  I just assume that the reason they don't use the scriptures in 
their talks is because they don't study them daily at home.  Even temple 
attending saints frequently get up in meeting and speak for 10 or 15 
minutes without once making a reference to the scriptures.


John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]

The youth speakers use the scriptures much more effectively than many 
temple attending Saints in our ward.




--
Steven Montgomery
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: [ZION] Liberal dems unveil...

At 07:20 PM 11/8/2002, you wrote:

After much pondering, Steven Montgomery favored us with:

If the Democratic party hopes to survive they would be wise to move to 
the center by backing Rep. Martin Frost of Texas, a moderate. Which is 
what I think will happen. Choosing Senator Pelosi will ring a death knell 
for the Democratic Party.

In that case, I hope they choose Senator Pelosi.  One of the two main 
parties needs to be done away with so another one can take its place.  I'm 
tired of one-party government masquerading as two-party government.


John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]

I would be tickled pink if the Democratic Party did choose Senator Pelosi. 
I would hold graveyard services to honor their demise and then go out and 
celebrate! ;-)


--
Steven Montgomery
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

. . . it is as much their [The Elders of Israel] duty to study correct 
political principles as well as religion, and to seek and know and 
comprehend the social and political interests of man, and to learn and be 
able to teach that which would be best calculated to promote the interests 
of the world.--John Taylor

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Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan

At 11:00 PM 11/8/2002, you wrote:

Quote
Thus we in America are now deliberately searching out and developing the
most savage, murderous means of exterminating peoples that Satan can
plant
in our minds. We do it not only shamelessly, but with a boast. God will
not
forgive us for this.
If we are to avoid extermination, if the world is not to be wiped out, we

must find some way to curb the fiendish ingenuity of men who have
apparently no fear of God, man, or the devil, and who are willing to plot

and plan and invent instrumentalities that will wipe out all the flesh of

the earth. And, as one American citizen of one hundred thirty millions,
as
one in one billion population of the world, I protest with all of the
energy I possess against this fiendish activity, and as an American
citizen, I call upon our government and its agencies to see that these
unholy experimentations are stopped, and that somehow we get into the
minds
of our war-minded general staff and its satellites, and into the general
staffs of all the world, a proper respect for human life.
(President J. Reuben Clark, Jr., Conference Report, October 1946,
Afternoon
Meeting 89.)
/Quote



If we didn't develop the atomic bombs and make plenty of them isn't it
possible that we might not be here today to read this quote because the
Russians or some other country would have nuked us? I'm glad that the
above quote is in the archives only and is not quoted in our conferences
today. That would really depress me.

Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


It might depress you further to know that the United States was 
instrumental in turning over nuclear secrets to the Soviets. Major Racey 
Jordan wrote a book entitled, _Major Jordan's Diaries_, about his part, 
unbeknownst to him at the time, of delivering weapons grade uranium, plans, 
diagrams and other supplies to the Soviets.



--
Steven Montgomery
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Explore Freedom: http://www.geocities.com/graymada

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Re: [ZION] Liberal dems unveil...

Who says there needs to be two major parties? I didn't read that in the 1st 
Presidency statement. The Democratic demise would pave the way for one of 
the third party movements, the Constitution party, Libertarian party, 
Independent American Party, etc.

--
Steven Montgomery

At 09:17 AM 11/9/2002, you wrote:
So the official 1st presidency statement of Jan 98 expressing concern at the
predominance of one party in Utah, is like water off a duck's back for you?

Steven Montgomery wrote:

 At 07:20 PM 11/8/2002, you wrote:
 After much pondering, Steven Montgomery favored us with:
 If the Democratic party hopes to survive they would be wise to move to
 the center by backing Rep. Martin Frost of Texas, a moderate. Which is
 what I think will happen. Choosing Senator Pelosi will ring a death knell
 for the Democratic Party.
 
 In that case, I hope they choose Senator Pelosi.  One of the two main
 parties needs to be done away with so another one can take its place.  I'm
 tired of one-party government masquerading as two-party government.
 
 
 John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 I would be tickled pink if the Democratic Party did choose Senator Pelosi.
 I would hold graveyard services to honor their demise and then go out and
 celebrate! ;-)

 --
 Steven Montgomery
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 . . . it is as much their [The Elders of Israel] duty to study correct
 political principles as well as religion, and to seek and know and
 comprehend the social and political interests of man, and to learn and be
 able to teach that which would be best calculated to promote the interests
 of the world.--John Taylor

 
/
 ///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
 ///  http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html  ///
 
/


--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he 
will pick
himself up and continue on  Winston Churchill

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author's 
employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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--
Steven Montgomery
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

HTML
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Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan

At 11:34 AM 11/9/2002, Marc wrote:


Incidentally, one little irony that I'm not sure has been brought up, 
although I'm
sure Mark especially knows this, and probably many others here, is that 
Nagasaki
wasn't the first choice for the second bomb. The original target was 
clouded over
that day, so Nagasaki got hit. The irony is that Nagasaki is the 
historical centre
of Japan's Christian community.  So I guess today's trivia question is: 
what was
the original target?

The primary target was Kokura, a major munitions manufacturing center. 
Kokura was obscured by clouds and smoke (leftover from an earlier raid on a 
nearby city) so the bombadier couldn't get an exact target despite three 
separate passes. The secondary target was Nagasaki which was also obscured 
by clouds but after a couple of passes the clouds parted, and the rest is 
history.



--
Steven Montgomery
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Nations are defined by their founders. George Washington set a standard of
selfless public service and heroic private virtue against which American
politicians continue to be measured - and found wanting - even today. 
--Steven W. Mosher 

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[ZION] Mars and symbolism

By August 2003 the red planet will be brighter than Jupiter and the 
brightest object in the sky except Venus and the moon. Since Mars is the 
planet associated with warfare is this a portend of things to come?

http://www.space.com/spacewatch/mars_preview_021108.html

Mars to Get Closer than Ever in Recorded History in 2003
(SPACE.com) - Mars recently emerged into the morning sky and has begun an
orbital dance with Earth that will, over the next several months, lead to
the best viewing opportunity since Neanderthals looked skyward. The Red
Planet is getting progressively closer to Earth with each passing night, and
consequently it will slowly appear to grow larger and brighter. By late
August 2003, when it will be about 191 million miles closer, the reddish
point of light in our night sky will appear more than six times larger and
shine some 85 times brighter than it appears now. More...


--
Steven Montgomery
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan

At 03:46 PM 11/9/2002, Marc wrote:

Trivia question: who was the first country to launch a raid on residential 
areas
in an enemy country in WWII, and what was the city involved?

Great Britain, May 11, 1940. They bombed the quiet peaceful town known as 
Westphalia which was miles from any front. The historian J. F. P. Veale 
notes in his book, _Advance To Barbarism_, that Great Britain's bombing of 
Westphalia was the first deliberate breach of the fundamental rule of 
civilized warfare that hostilities must only be waged against the enemy 
combatant forces.



--
Steven Montgomery
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Nations are defined by their founders. George Washington set a standard of
selfless public service and heroic private virtue against which American
politicians continue to be measured - and found wanting - even today. 
--Steven W. Mosher 

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Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan

At 03:46 PM 11/9/2002, Marc wrote:


Trivia question: who first broke neutrality in WWII?


Great Britain, September 3, 1940, ostensibly to guarantee the territorial 
integrity of Poland. However after the war Poland was divvied up to the 
Soviets--so what the heck was WWII fought for?

Interestingly enough, President Roosevelt urged the military combatants on 
both sides to refrain from bombing cities or civilian populations. 
Churchill and the French promised that only strictly military targets would 
be bombed by their air forces.



--
Steven Montgomery
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Nations are defined by their founders. George Washington set a standard of
selfless public service and heroic private virtue against which American
politicians continue to be measured - and found wanting - even today. 
--Steven W. Mosher 

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Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan

At 03:46 PM 11/9/2002, Marc wrote:


Trivia question: what major Ally's naval assets were destroyed by another 
Ally,
and why?

This was a harder one, but I think I remember it was the Germans who 
scuttled Italy's ships to prevent them from falling into Allied hands. Am I 
right?



--
Steven Montgomery
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Nations are defined by their founders. George Washington set a standard of
selfless public service and heroic private virtue against which American
politicians continue to be measured - and found wanting - even today. 
--Steven W. Mosher 

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Re: [ZION] Liberal dems unveil...

I'm just as concerned about one party domination as you are. One problem is 
that the Democratic Party has steered themselves way too far to the left. 
Meanwhile the Republican Party is full of RINO's (Republican in name only). 
What I meant to say previously was that there is no requirement that there 
only be two parties, I would like to see the third parties given more fair 
play in the media instead of the short shrift they are usually given.

--
Steven Montgomery

At 03:48 PM 11/9/2002, you wrote:
That may be why Pres. Hinckley asked Pres. Jensen to give an interview to the
Tribune to underscore the point -- too many Utahns didn't understand the 
point the
first time around. Even afterwards, one Rep. rep. publicly criticized 
Pres. Jensen
for what he said. The guy has more guts than I do -- I'd never publicly 
criticize
the brethren like that. But it gave me an insight into what they're up against
there in Utah.

Steven Montgomery wrote:

 Who says there needs to be two major parties? I didn't read that in the 1st
 Presidency statement. The Democratic demise would pave the way for one of
 the third party movements, the Constitution party, Libertarian party,
 Independent American Party, etc.

 --
 Steven Montgomery

 At 09:17 AM 11/9/2002, you wrote:
 So the official 1st presidency statement of Jan 98 expressing concern 
at the
 predominance of one party in Utah, is like water off a duck's back for 
you?
 
 Steven Montgomery wrote:
 
   At 07:20 PM 11/8/2002, you wrote:
   After much pondering, Steven Montgomery favored us with:
   If the Democratic party hopes to survive they would be wise to 
move to
   the center by backing Rep. Martin Frost of Texas, a moderate. 
Which is
   what I think will happen. Choosing Senator Pelosi will ring a 
death knell
   for the Democratic Party.
   
   In that case, I hope they choose Senator Pelosi.  One of the two main
   parties needs to be done away with so another one can take its 
place.  I'm
   tired of one-party government masquerading as two-party government.
   
   
   John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  
   I would be tickled pink if the Democratic Party did choose Senator 
Pelosi.
   I would hold graveyard services to honor their demise and then go 
out and
   celebrate! ;-)
  
   --
   Steven Montgomery
   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  
   . . . it is as much their [The Elders of Israel] duty to study correct
   political principles as well as religion, and to seek and know and
   comprehend the social and political interests of man, and to learn 
and be
   able to teach that which would be best calculated to promote the 
interests
   of the world.--John Taylor
  
  
  
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 --
 Marc A. Schindler
 Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
 
 Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he
 will pick
 himself up and continue on  Winston Churchill
 
 Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the 
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will pick
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Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
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Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan

LDS, and the plane was named after his mother. What do I win now?

--
Steven Montgomery

At 03:49 PM 11/9/2002, you wrote:

Steven wins first prize! A one-week holiday in beautiful downtown Moose Jaw in
the second week of January.
Okay. Here's another question: what was the religious denomination of the 
pilot,
and after whom did he name the plane? (I'm thinking specifically of the 
Enola Gay
here)

Steven Montgomery wrote:

 At 11:34 AM 11/9/2002, Marc wrote:

 Incidentally, one little irony that I'm not sure has been brought up,
 although I'm
 sure Mark especially knows this, and probably many others here, is that
 Nagasaki
 wasn't the first choice for the second bomb. The original target was
 clouded over
 that day, so Nagasaki got hit. The irony is that Nagasaki is the
 historical centre
 of Japan's Christian community.  So I guess today's trivia question is:
 what was
 the original target?

 The primary target was Kokura, a major munitions manufacturing center.
 Kokura was obscured by clouds and smoke (leftover from an earlier raid on a
 nearby city) so the bombadier couldn't get an exact target despite three
 separate passes. The secondary target was Nagasaki which was also obscured
 by clouds but after a couple of passes the clouds parted, and the rest is
 history.

 --
 Steven Montgomery
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Nations are defined by their founders. George Washington set a standard of
 selfless public service and heroic private virtue against which American
 politicians continue to be measured - and found wanting - even today.
 --Steven W. Mosher

 
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Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he 
will pick
himself up and continue on  Winston Churchill

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author's 
employer,
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Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan

At 08:12 PM 11/9/2002, Marc wrote:


Hmm, which reminds me of my other trivia question that I'm not sure I phrased
properly. I was trying to bring out that the French fleet had been taken to
French West Africa (Algiers?) for protection when France was invaded. The 
British
scuttled the entire French fleet at one fell swoop, to prevent them from 
falling
into German hands and/or for fear that the Vichy French would use them in
cooperation with the Germans, much to DeGaulle's consternation.

I knew somebodies fleet was scuttled, i just forgot who the actors were.



--
Steven Montgomery
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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politicians continue to be measured - and found wanting - even today. 
--Steven W. Mosher 

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RE: [ZION] Liberal dems unveil...

At 08:17 PM 11/9/2002, you wrote:


Steven Montgomery wrote:
---
I'm just as concerned about one party domination as you are. One problem
is that the Democratic Party has steered themselves way too far to the
left.
---

It appears to me that partisan affiliation is largely irrelevant, at
least at the national level.  Both major national parties promote
platform issues that are morally unacceptable, insupportable, and
insufferable, to any person still gifted with the light of Christ.  In
fact, in the deepest darkest depths of these organizations lurk evils so
horrifyingly abominable that it amazes me to see apparently otherwise
decent people so associate themselves.  They are truly  Gadianton Bands,
fulfilling every item on the checklist of devilish evil and depravity.
Beneath the centrist mask, many of the principal policy makers openly
espouse ideals that would compromise the very social and political
foundations of the world.  If such fundamentally evil people ever come
to power unopposed and free to act, it will be a day of great calamity.

This far, in this modern age, we have been fortunate that these forces
must continually compromise their true inclinations to disguise the real
evil they intend.

---
Mij Ebaboc


I pretty much agree with your assessment.



--
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Re: [ZION] Liberal dems unveil...

Actually I've pondered the possibility of running as a democrat in the next 
State House election. The incumbent who just got reelected ran unopposed, 
there was no challenger from the Democratic Party.

--
Steven Montgomery

At 08:18 PM 11/9/2002, you wrote:
Not so far to the left that at least two well-known GAs have been active 
in the
Utah party: Presidents Marlin K. Jensen and Faust. Pres. Jensen explained 
why, and
what he felt he and like-minded LDS could do as a leavening contributor, 
in his
famous interview with the Trib.

Steven Montgomery wrote:

 I'm just as concerned about one party domination as you are. One problem is
 that the Democratic Party has steered themselves way too far to the left.
 Meanwhile the Republican Party is full of RINO's (Republican in name only).
 What I meant to say previously was that there is no requirement that there
 only be two parties, I would like to see the third parties given more fair
 play in the media instead of the short shrift they are usually given.

 --
 Steven Montgomery

 At 03:48 PM 11/9/2002, you wrote:
 That may be why Pres. Hinckley asked Pres. Jensen to give an interview 
to the
 Tribune to underscore the point -- too many Utahns didn't understand the
 point the
 first time around. Even afterwards, one Rep. rep. publicly criticized
 Pres. Jensen
 for what he said. The guy has more guts than I do -- I'd never publicly
 criticize
 the brethren like that. But it gave me an insight into what they're up 
against
 there in Utah.
 
 Steven Montgomery wrote:
 
   Who says there needs to be two major parties? I didn't read that in 
the 1st
   Presidency statement. The Democratic demise would pave the way for 
one of
   the third party movements, the Constitution party, Libertarian party,
   Independent American Party, etc.
  
   --
   Steven Montgomery
  
   At 09:17 AM 11/9/2002, you wrote:
   So the official 1st presidency statement of Jan 98 expressing concern
  at the
   predominance of one party in Utah, is like water off a duck's back for
  you?
   
   Steven Montgomery wrote:
   
 At 07:20 PM 11/8/2002, you wrote:
 After much pondering, Steven Montgomery favored us with:
 If the Democratic party hopes to survive they would be wise to
  move to
 the center by backing Rep. Martin Frost of Texas, a moderate.
  Which is
 what I think will happen. Choosing Senator Pelosi will ring a
  death knell
 for the Democratic Party.
 
 In that case, I hope they choose Senator Pelosi.  One of the 
two main
 parties needs to be done away with so another one can take its
  place.  I'm
 tired of one-party government masquerading as two-party 
government.
 
 
 John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 I would be tickled pink if the Democratic Party did choose Senator
  Pelosi.
 I would hold graveyard services to honor their demise and then go
  out and
 celebrate! ;-)

 --
 Steven Montgomery
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 . . . it is as much their [The Elders of Israel] duty to study 
correct
 political principles as well as religion, and to seek and know and
 comprehend the social and political interests of man, and to learn
  and be
 able to teach that which would be best calculated to promote the
  interests
 of the world.--John Taylor


   
  
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 ///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
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   --
   Marc A. Schindler
   Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
   
   Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he
   will pick
   himself up and continue on  Winston Churchill
   
   Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
  author
   solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author's
   employer,
   nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.
   
   /// 

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  //
   
  
   --
   Steven Montgomery
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 Marc A. Schindler
 Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
 
 Man

Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan

At least when the temperature gets cold here (Cedar City area) in February 
I can jump in the car and in 40 minutes be in short sleeve weather.

--
Steven Montgomery

At 08:19 PM 11/9/2002, you wrote:
Yet another week in Moose Jaw, but in early February this time. Maybe 
we'll allow a
side-trip to Medicine Hat, the 40-40 city (where it's either plus 40 or 
minus 40 o
C; nothing in between).

Steven Montgomery wrote:

 LDS, and the plane was named after his mother. What do I win now?

 --
 Steven Montgomery

 At 03:49 PM 11/9/2002, you wrote:
 Steven wins first prize! A one-week holiday in beautiful downtown 
Moose Jaw in
 the second week of January.
 Okay. Here's another question: what was the religious denomination of the
 pilot,
 and after whom did he name the plane? (I'm thinking specifically of the
 Enola Gay
 here)
 
 Steven Montgomery wrote:
 
   At 11:34 AM 11/9/2002, Marc wrote:
  
   Incidentally, one little irony that I'm not sure has been brought up,
   although I'm
   sure Mark especially knows this, and probably many others here, is 
that
   Nagasaki
   wasn't the first choice for the second bomb. The original target was
   clouded over
   that day, so Nagasaki got hit. The irony is that Nagasaki is the
   historical centre
   of Japan's Christian community.  So I guess today's trivia 
question is:
   what was
   the original target?
  
   The primary target was Kokura, a major munitions manufacturing center.
   Kokura was obscured by clouds and smoke (leftover from an earlier 
raid on a
   nearby city) so the bombadier couldn't get an exact target despite 
three
   separate passes. The secondary target was Nagasaki which was also 
obscured
   by clouds but after a couple of passes the clouds parted, and the 
rest is
   history.
  
   --
   Steven Montgomery
   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  
   Nations are defined by their founders. George Washington set a 
standard of
   selfless public service and heroic private virtue against which 
American
   politicians continue to be measured - and found wanting - even today.
   --Steven W. Mosher
  
  
  
/
   ///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
   ///  http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html  ///
  
  
/
  
 
 --
 Marc A. Schindler
 Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
 
 Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he
 will pick
 himself up and continue on  Winston Churchill
 
 Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the 
author
 solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author's
 employer,
 nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.
 
 /// 
//
 ///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
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 /// 
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--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he 
will pick
himself up and continue on  Winston Churchill

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author's 
employer, nor
those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Liberal dems unveil...

2002-11-10 Thread Steven Montgomery

At 09:23 PM 11/9/2002, Marc wrote:

in my opinion). Melchin is Progressive Conservative, which is the dynasty 
here,
and has been since 1970 or so.

Now there's an oxymoron if I ever heard one. How can one claim to be a 
progressive (which has socialist roots) and conservative (which 
ostensibly should be anti-socialist) at the same time?



--
Steven Montgomery
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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politicians continue to be measured - and found wanting - even today. 
--Steven W. Mosher 

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Re: [ZION] Truman (was Taliban in pakistan)

At 08:15 PM 11/11/2002, Gary wrote:



Wilford Woodruff divided the nations after WWI, including making a new
nation called Yugoslavia.


He did? grin If so, he must have done so as a resurrected being. ;-)


--
Steven Montgomery
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

. . . it is as much their [The Elders of Israel] duty to study correct 
political principles as well as religion, and to seek and know and 
comprehend the social and political interests of man, and to learn and be 
able to teach that which would be best calculated to promote the interests 
of the world.--John Taylor

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Re: [ZION] War against Islam

At 08:25 PM 11/11/2002, Gary wrote:


Their Jihad is on the same level as the Christian Crusades. Those who
went on the Crusades were promised everlasting life. They were told to
use whatever means to obtain the holy city. And they did. They were
ruthless, killing men, women and children. They even toppled
Constantinople, an Orthodox Christian city!

So it is with the Jihad today. It is a holy war. In holy war, or a
Crusade, people will do whatever is necessary to obtain victory and
heaven.


For an interesting look at the various meanings behind Jihad, including 
that of the Islamic Fundamentalists, I recommend: 
http://www.danielpipes.org/article/498



--
Steven Montgomery
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Nations are defined by their founders. George Washington set a standard of
selfless public service and heroic private virtue against which American
politicians continue to be measured - and found wanting - even today. 
--Steven W. Mosher 

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Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan

At 01:43 PM 11/12/2002, you wrote:

At 08:00 PM 11/8/2002 -0700, Steven wrote:

Prior to the Civil War noncombatants were traditionally and legally by 
the laws of nations left alone. The concept of total war (targeting 
civilians as well as combatants) had its roots in the Civil War (when war 
would be poured out upon all nations) beginning with General Sherman's 
march to the sea.

Hogwash! Traditionally, raping and looting were the means by which the 
troops were paid.   War is Hell did not originate with Sherman.

Rick Mathis

I was talking about civilized nations here. Internationally, beginning 
about the 1600's or so, there were several treaties which detailed nations 
conduct during war. Somewhat similar to the Geneva Convention for example, 
which proscribes signatories from bombing hospitals and outlines proper 
procedures for handling the captured (POW's).



--
Steven Montgomery
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Nations are defined by their founders. George Washington set a standard of
selfless public service and heroic private virtue against which American
politicians continue to be measured - and found wanting - even today. 
--Steven W. Mosher 

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Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan

At 08:00 PM 11/12/2002, you wrote:

After much pondering, Steven Montgomery favored us with:

I was talking about civilized nations here. Internationally, beginning 
about the 1600's or so, there were several treaties which detailed 
nations conduct during war. Somewhat similar to the Geneva Convention for 
example, which proscribes signatories from bombing hospitals and outlines 
proper procedures for handling the captured (POW's).

So how successful have these rules been that attempt to make civilized 
that which cannot be civilized?  --JWR

Not very I have to admit.


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Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan

At 08:00 PM 11/12/2002, you wrote:

After much pondering, Steven Montgomery favored us with:

I was talking about civilized nations here. Internationally, beginning 
about the 1600's or so, there were several treaties which detailed 
nations conduct during war. Somewhat similar to the Geneva Convention for 
example, which proscribes signatories from bombing hospitals and outlines 
proper procedures for handling the captured (POW's).

So how successful have these rules been that attempt to make civilized 
that which cannot be civilized?  --JWR

According to President Benson, one of the purposes of the Book of Mormon is 
so that armies will know how to conduct themselves during war. I can't find 
the reference right off hand but I remember the statement.



--
Steven Montgomery
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Nations are defined by their founders. George Washington set a standard of
selfless public service and heroic private virtue against which American
politicians continue to be measured - and found wanting - even today. 
--Steven W. Mosher 

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Re: [ZION] Truman (was Taliban in pakistan)

2002-11-13 Thread Steven Montgomery

At 09:44 AM 11/13/2002, Marc wrote:


Nobody does anything out of ideology anymore.


I disagree. What about the ideology underlying the drive for power and gain?



--
Steven Montgomery
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Explore Freedom: http://www.geocities.com/graymada

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[ZION] Hardwired for God?

2002-11-13 Thread Steven Montgomery

Hardwired for God?
http://www.ldsmag.com/sci_rel/021112wired.html


--
Steven Montgomery
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Re: [ZION] Hardwired for God?

2002-11-13 Thread Steven Montgomery

At 06:41 PM 11/13/2002, Marc wrote:

I read that. Be careful with John Pratt -- he's into some pretty scary stuff
involving signs and tokens in his own semi-public ceremonies involving what he
calls the Enoch calendar. Details available upon request. But more to the 
point,
and staying away from personal attacks, he discusses a book that's making 
quite a
splash (Why God Won't Go Away) but fails to note that while this book is 
popular
-- it was mentioned on Indigo.ca's main page the last time I was there 
(Indigo is
Canada's largest book chain) -- it has received poor reviews from 
scientists for
its poor science. It's one thing to criticize a book for its conclusions, 
but if
it misrepresents itself, that's a problem, and the poor reviews are, in my
opinion, well-founded. Why? I won't get into the science per se, but the 
two guys
who wrote it, while they have scientific bona fides, are a little out of their
field when it comes to philosophy. They ironically try to show that there is a
spiritual plane which exists in the physical world, a view that's known as
reductionism, or rationalist materialism, and a philosophy we LDS would have a
hard time with. It's the basis for atheism: that all so-called 
spirituality has a
physical basis. My worry on behalf of Meridian is blow back when some of the
nonsense Pratt's into backfire onto a very nice couple (the Proctors, who 
put out
Meridian).

Well, Pratt did say that none of the books he looked at, one of them being, 
_Why God Won't Go Away_, were worth the money he was going to spend on 
them. Besides, his article was not a book review.

I agree with you regarding the basis for materialism. Marxist scientists 
have for decades attempted to establish a material basis for spiritual 
experiences, that is nothing new. However, that is not what Pratt was 
driving at. Pratt clearly states that there is a relationship between the 
brain and spiritual experiences but that we need to be careful not to draw 
conclusions without taking both the spiritual and material elements into 
consideration. Imo, the brain acts as sort of an interface, if you will, 
between body and spirit.

Imo, Pratt is very much into the doctrine behind Moses 6: 63, that all 
things bear record of Christ. If it is true that all things bear record 
of Christ then it should not be surprising that astronomical and 
calendrical events might also bear testimony in some majestic way of the 
Savior of all mankind (See my sig file below). I look at Pratt's research 
in much the same manner as I do Avraham Gileadi's. Gileadi was a 
pathbreaker by exposing lay members of the Church to the learning of the 
Jews and how that learning can broaden and deepen ones understanding of 
scripture. Pratt does much the same thing in a different manner by exposing 
members of the Church to celestial and date events and how those can indeed 
bear record of Christ. I don't agree with all the conclusions that Gileadi 
makes and neither do I with Pratt, but I also don't throw out all of their 
good and valuable research as crackpot just because I have disagreements 
with various areas of their work. Besides, I don't base my testimony or 
doctrinal understanding on personalities, and you can be assured that If 
and when somebodies actions does become pretty scary, aside from 
Samuelson's wrong headed opinion of a harmless skit, that I'll distance 
myself completely from that particular personality.



--
Steven Montgomery
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Recall the new star that announced the birth at Bethlehem? It was in its 
precise orbit long before it so shone. We are likewise placed in human 
orbits to illuminate. Divine correlation functions not only in the cosmos 
but on this planet, too. After all, the Book of Mormon plates were not 
buried in Belgium, only to have Joseph Smith born centuries later in 
distant Bombay. (Elder Neal A. Maxwell, Conference Report, Saturday 
Morning, Oct 2002)

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Re: [ZION] Hardwired for God?

At 11:37 PM 11/13/2002, Marc wrote:


Speaking of the star of Bethlehem, I'm sure you have heard most of the 
theories as
to what it might have been. What would be your reaction if you learned that it
might actually be an astrological phenomenon, and that it didn't happen in 
1 A.D.?

--
Marc A. Schindler

Actually Pratt discussed this possibility in an article which appears on 
the Griffith Observatory website (as well as other places, including 
Pratt's own website):
http://www.griffithobs.org/IPSPlanPlatt.html

The most likely date he gives is during Passover, 1 BC. I should mention 
that to the Jews (at least those not in apostasy) astrology as a method of 
predicting the future was blasphemous. However, they did believe that stars 
(and other celestial events) were signs of God's works. Genesis 1:14, for 
starters, states that these celestial objects and events are signs--to make 
known his will and purposes.

A good overview of the different celestial (astrological) events regarding 
what might have been the Star of Bethlehem is available here:
http://sciastro.net/portia/articles/thestar.htm


--
Steven Montgomery
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Recall the new star that announced the birth at Bethlehem? It was in its 
precise orbit long before it so shone. We are likewise placed in human 
orbits to illuminate. Divine correlation functions not only in the cosmos 
but on this planet, too. After all, the Book of Mormon plates were not 
buried in Belgium, only to have Joseph Smith born centuries later in 
distant Bombay. (Elder Neal A. Maxwell, Conference Report, Saturday 
Morning, Oct 2002)

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Re: [ZION] truman the villain

At 10:51 AM 11/14/2002, Gary wrote:



If it were just us against the North Koreans, I can see your point. But
as Jesus told us that the wise man counts his pennies before building the
house, we had to determine just what level of interdiction we were
willing to make in Korea. Given that the Soviets would have jumped in on
the war if we were to have invaded China, we were looking at nuclear
holocaust. Truman wasn't willing to go that far, and I thank him for it.


Were it not for economic and technical assistance given to the Soviet Union 
and Red China by the United States the North Koreans would never have 
invaded the South. They wouldn't have been in a position to do so. In fact, 
a good position can be made that it was aid, trade and diplomacy which 
built up the Soviet Union, Red China, and their satellite states over the 
years. The Russian invasion of Afghanistan being a good case in point. How 
did the Russians invade Afghanistan? Over a highway built by U.S. Foreign 
Aid Dollars with trucks built at the Kama River Truck Plant also built by 
U.S. help.


--
Steven Montgomery
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: [ZION] Hardwired for God?

Mazzaroth. Job 38:32.

--
Steven Montgomery

At 12:11 PM 11/14/2002, Marc wrote:

Actually ancients did not make a distinction between astrology and 
astronomy as we
do -- the prohibition against astrology is being read back into the OT, 
which is
anachronistic. Zodiac mosaics have been found on the floors of 1st century BC
synagogues in Israel, and the zodiac (as in the Babylonian system of 12 
houses)
actually appears at one point in Job, although they don't use the English 
word.
Anyone know what it's called?

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Re: [ZION] truman the villain

At 05:42 PM 11/14/2002, you wrote:

After much pondering, Steven Montgomery favored us with:

Were it not for economic and technical assistance given to the Soviet 
Union and Red China by the United States the North Koreans would never 
have invaded the South. They wouldn't have been in a position to do so. 
In fact, a good position can be made that it was aid, trade and diplomacy 
which built up the Soviet Union, Red China, and their satellite states 
over the years. The Russian invasion of Afghanistan being a good case in 
point. How did the Russians invade Afghanistan? Over a highway built by 
U.S. Foreign Aid Dollars with trucks built at the Kama River Truck Plant 
also built by U.S. help.

Specifically by Ford with the authorization of our government.  And I'll 
bet it was financed with government guaranteed loans backed by the good 
credit of the American taxpayer.  --JWR

Exactly so. $153 million from the export-import bank ran by William J. 
Casey at the time. The bank providing the money was David Rockefeller's 
Chase Manhattan Bank. Other contractors involved in building the Kama River 
Truck Plant besides the Ford Company was Glidden Machine  Tool Company, 
Gulf and Western Industries, Honeywell, the Swindell-Dressler Company, 
Warner  Swazey, the Ingersoll Milling Machine Company, and the E.W. Bliss 
Company.


--
Steven Montgomery
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

. . . it is as much their [The Elders of Israel] duty to study correct 
political principles as well as religion, and to seek and know and 
comprehend the social and political interests of man, and to learn and be 
able to teach that which would be best calculated to promote the interests 
of the world.--John Taylor

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Re: Populations (was Re: [ZION] umbrella)