Re: [ZION] Hindsight
Deal!!! Cousin (well, actually Brother, I think) Jon Cousin Bill wrote: > At some point in the past, Jon wrote: > > > > Well, I voted for Bush and I will again next time. > -- > As did many other people that I know and love. I won't hold it (your voting > for Bush) against you if you won't hold (the other) it (my not voting for > Bush -- and no, I didn't vote for Gore, either) against me. > > Deal? > > Cousin Bill > > / > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > > > / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
At 10:48 PM, Wednesday, 10/23/02, Cousin Bill wrote: Not I, said Cousin Bill. Nor will I ever vote for a Bush. I did vote for the first Bush. That was when I was young and foolish and didn't know better. I have noticed that on some of the websites run by people with politics similar to my own that they refer to "the Bush crime family." I put my faith in God, my Savior, the Prophet, my Stake President, my bishop, and myself. I don't put any faith at all in politicians. All of them are masters of looking good. And because of that it is impossible to know what they are like underneath the public persona. I must confess that I think of the Bush clan as the Bush crime family. But I don't think they are any worse than the Kennedys, or the Rockefellers. None of those fortunes were earned honestly. This is why I am so into religion. If I only knew the world, ie. Babylon, I would get so depressed I would never get over it. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === If you were a poor Indian with no weapons, and a bunch of conquistadors came up to you and asked where the gold was, I don't think it would be a good idea to say, "I swallowed it. So sue me." --Jack Handy === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
>Not I, said Cousin Bill. Nor will I ever vote for a Bush. I did vote for >the first Bush. That was when I was young and foolish and didn't know >better. > >Cousin Bill Hey, you just called me a fool. (don't worry, I'm sure I am) I voted for Reagan the first time and I was only 18. I voted for him again. Then I voted for Bush and have not been back to the polls since. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
At some point in the past, Jon wrote: > Well, I voted for Bush and I will again next time. -- As did many other people that I know and love. I won't hold it (your voting for Bush) against you if you won't hold (the other) it (my not voting for Bush -- and no, I didn't vote for Gore, either) against me. Deal? Cousin Bill / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
Well, I voted for Bush and I will again next time. Jon - Original Message - From: "Cousin Bill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 9:48 AM Subject: Re: [ZION] Hindsight > At some point in the past, Paul asked: > > So, who all on this list > > voted for Bush? > - > Not I, said Cousin Bill. Nor will I ever vote for a Bush. I did vote for > the first Bush. That was when I was young and foolish and didn't know > better. > > Cousin Bill / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
At some point in the past, Paul asked: So, who all on this list > voted for Bush? - Not I, said Cousin Bill. Nor will I ever vote for a Bush. I did vote for the first Bush. That was when I was young and foolish and didn't know better. Cousin Bill / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
>Gore is a Gadianton too, so what choice do any of us have? I wouldn't >fault President Hinckley for voting for a Bush Gadianton before a Gore >Gadianton. Who knows? Perhaps he voted for Patrick Buchanan like I >did. Or better yet, perhaps he voted the rest of the ballot and left the >presidential race unmarked. > >Isn't it nice when we can speculate about how the Lord's prophet voted? Dog-gonnit John! You made me laugh so hard I spit all over my screen! Where is the bottle of alcohol so I can clean my screen? Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
At 01:39 PM, Tuesday, 10/22/02, Paul Osborne wrote: Sounds reasonable to me. Wouldn't it be a gas to learn that President Hinkley did in fact vote for Bush? I wonder what JWR would say then? Would he then take back his Gadianton accusations? Gore is a Gadianton too, so what choice do any of us have? I wouldn't fault President Hinckley for voting for a Bush Gadianton before a Gore Gadianton. Who knows? Perhaps he voted for Patrick Buchanan like I did. Or better yet, perhaps he voted the rest of the ballot and left the presidential race unmarked. Isn't it nice when we can speculate about how the Lord's prophet voted? Some of my best friends are Gadianton Robbers, John W. Redelfs, [EMAIL PROTECTED] / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
OK. I was just wondering -- I won't argue the point. Paul Osborne wrote: > Marc: > >Now this is an interesting thought. Do you really think this follows? > (that the > >prophet's personal vote should, if it were known, be the example for the > rest of > >us?) And how do you handle the fact that in any case this *can* only > apply to a > >minority of LDS, since most LDS are not US? > > First, I only care about the US and me and the prophet are both US > citizens. Second, I have to assume that the prophet carefully and > prayerfully selects his candidate because that is what the First > Presidency tells us to do and I know that they are not hypocrites but > practice what they preach. And, since I'm lazy, if I knew who the prophet > voted for I figure the thinking has been done and would vote the same. > Sure, you betcha, I'd ride the prophet's inspired coattails. > > he he > > Paul O > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today > > Only $9.95 per month! > > Visit www.juno.com > > / > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
Marc: >Now this is an interesting thought. Do you really think this follows? (that the >prophet's personal vote should, if it were known, be the example for the rest of >us?) And how do you handle the fact that in any case this *can* only apply to a >minority of LDS, since most LDS are not US? First, I only care about the US and me and the prophet are both US citizens. Second, I have to assume that the prophet carefully and prayerfully selects his candidate because that is what the First Presidency tells us to do and I know that they are not hypocrites but practice what they preach. And, since I'm lazy, if I knew who the prophet voted for I figure the thinking has been done and would vote the same. Sure, you betcha, I'd ride the prophet's inspired coattails. he he Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
Paul Osborne wrote: > > > My point was two fold. If Bush was indeed a Gadianton as JWR says he is > it would be a sad and sorry thing for President Hinkley to vote for him. > That would really bother me quite a bit. O boy O boy! > I'm not sure I see that, but I won't argue the point. > > Second, it would be nice to vote for the same candidate as the prophet > does. That's the best choice if you ask me. So, who all on this list > voted for Bush? > Now this is an interesting thought. Do you really think this follows? (that the prophet's personal vote should, if it were known, be the example for the rest of us?) And how do you handle the fact that in any case this *can* only apply to a minority of LDS, since most LDS are not US? > > Paul O -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
Marc: >Although I don't agree with John's terminology and system of reference in this >regard, logically speaking I don't see why he'd have to take back his >accusations. It's still a civic duty to vote -- that's clear LDS doctrine as far >as I know (okay, I'm extrapolating from the 12th AoF, but the point is I don't >think it's a controversial view). My point was two fold. If Bush was indeed a Gadianton as JWR says he is it would be a sad and sorry thing for President Hinkley to vote for him. That would really bother me quite a bit. O boy O boy! Second, it would be nice to vote for the same candidate as the prophet does. That's the best choice if you ask me. So, who all on this list voted for Bush? Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
Although I don't agree with John's terminology and system of reference in this regard, logically speaking I don't see why he'd have to take back his accusations. It's still a civic duty to vote -- that's clear LDS doctrine as far as I know (okay, I'm extrapolating from the 12th AoF, but the point is I don't think it's a controversial view). Paul Osborne wrote: > Sounds reasonable to me. > > Wouldn't it be a gas to learn that President Hinkley did in fact vote for > Bush? I wonder what JWR would say then? Would he then take back his > Gadianton > accusations? > > Paul O > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
Sounds reasonable to me. Wouldn't it be a gas to learn that President Hinkley did in fact vote for Bush? I wonder what JWR would say then? Would he then take back his Gadianton accusations? Paul O On Mon, 21 Oct 2002 19:15:49 -0600 "Marc A. Schindler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > I look at it this way. Think of a time when maybe someone you didn't > like got > called to be the bishop or SP or even a GA. You really thought this > guy was in > over his head, or was a jerk. Whatever. So, what do you do? I raise > my hand to > sustain the man (or woman). This is not a voting process. > Sustaining, to me, > means to support the person the best I can. It doesn't magically > turn them into a > wonderful, perfect person. We don't believe in infallibility (in > fact, there's a > common joke to the effect that Catholics believe in infallibility > but don't > practise it, and Mormons don't believe in infallibility but practise > it). But we > owe it to God to support our leaders. > > Now the segué to politics, because it works on somewhat different > principles, but > we do believe in sustaining and honoring secular leaders, too. That > means I have > the freedom to vote for A, B, or C, and if I vote for B and A gets > in, then I > work to support A. Even if I'm an opposition member or a member of a > different > party, you are still supporting the government because you're active > and involved > in the political process, as we've been advised to do. So you can > have your cake > and eat it, too, so to speak. > > Paul Osborne wrote: > > > >I'm sure they do, but that wasn't the question I was raising. I > was > > raising not > > >the question of knowledge, but of trust. Rule #1: follow the > money. How > > do you > > >know that Bush is listening to US intelligence (which, btw, has a > less > > than > > >sterling record). > > > > I don't know if Bush is listening to US Intelligence in the best > light. > > But, he is the only President we have and he is the Commander in > Chief. I > > have to work on rebuilding some confidence in the government or > I'll just > > be negative about everything. That's not to healthy of a thing. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
I look at it this way. Think of a time when maybe someone you didn't like got called to be the bishop or SP or even a GA. You really thought this guy was in over his head, or was a jerk. Whatever. So, what do you do? I raise my hand to sustain the man (or woman). This is not a voting process. Sustaining, to me, means to support the person the best I can. It doesn't magically turn them into a wonderful, perfect person. We don't believe in infallibility (in fact, there's a common joke to the effect that Catholics believe in infallibility but don't practise it, and Mormons don't believe in infallibility but practise it). But we owe it to God to support our leaders. Now the segué to politics, because it works on somewhat different principles, but we do believe in sustaining and honoring secular leaders, too. That means I have the freedom to vote for A, B, or C, and if I vote for B and A gets in, then I work to support A. Even if I'm an opposition member or a member of a different party, you are still supporting the government because you're active and involved in the political process, as we've been advised to do. So you can have your cake and eat it, too, so to speak. Paul Osborne wrote: > >I'm sure they do, but that wasn't the question I was raising. I was > raising not > >the question of knowledge, but of trust. Rule #1: follow the money. How > do you > >know that Bush is listening to US intelligence (which, btw, has a less > than > >sterling record). > > I don't know if Bush is listening to US Intelligence in the best light. > But, he is the only President we have and he is the Commander in Chief. I > have to work on rebuilding some confidence in the government or I'll just > be negative about everything. That's not to healthy of a thing. > > Paul O > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. > > / > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
>I'm sure they do, but that wasn't the question I was raising. I was raising not >the question of knowledge, but of trust. Rule #1: follow the money. How do you >know that Bush is listening to US intelligence (which, btw, has a less than >sterling record). I don't know if Bush is listening to US Intelligence in the best light. But, he is the only President we have and he is the Commander in Chief. I have to work on rebuilding some confidence in the government or I'll just be negative about everything. That's not to healthy of a thing. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
I'm sure they do, but that wasn't the question I was raising. I was raising not the question of knowledge, but of trust. Rule #1: follow the money. How do you know that Bush is listening to US intelligence (which, btw, has a less than sterling record). Paul Osborne wrote: > Sorry Marc, > > I think Bush and his team know a whole lot more than you do. Also, the > right-winger commentators on this list think they know so much but all > they have is the media to get their information from. And guess what? > That's where our enemies get their information too. That makes you all > beggars for information. US Intelligence is way over your head, folks. > You're out of your league. > > So there. > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
Glad to hear it. I have to admit I never got to know many of the "locals" when I lived there, but I had a companion from Provo, and he'd had no idea. That just goes to show you the "power" of anecdotal statistics, I guess. Steven Montgomery wrote: > At 01:38 AM 10/20/2002, Marc wrote: > >all built on the sites of French-Canadian trading posts. Provo is, in > >fact, named > >after Etienne Provost, although I wonder if they teach that in school there. > > It was taught in Jr. High School (9th grade) when I took Utah History. > > -- > Steven Montgomery > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > "Nations are defined by their founders. George Washington set a standard of > selfless public service and heroic private virtue against which American > politicians continue to be measured - and found wanting - even today." > --Steven W. Mosher > > / > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
Gary Smith wrote: > Okay, why not Pakistan? I admit they are a nuclear power. I admit there > are many radical Islamists there. However, just as in Iraq, Musharaf is a > secular leader. He may be Muslim, but does not show forth the radicalism > of others. We don't need to risk war with someone who wishes peace with > us. And spending a few billions of dollars on a nation to keep peace is > much cheaper than spending tens of billions in a war. > But a) he's a dictator and not here by the will of the people; and b) will eventually fall to an islamic fundamentalist government, just like the shah did in neighbouring Iran. He also can't keep his terrorists out of Kashmir and thus risks provoking the world's largest democracy to yet another war. And you're not spending a few billions to keep the peace, you're spending a few billion to continue training the ISI, the same group who trained the Taliban. > Now, is this over oil? No. Because we now have several other major > sources of oil (Canada, Mexico, Russia). Also, if we wanted more Iraqi > oil, it would be cheaper and easier on all of us just to ask the UN to > lift the sanctions against Iraq. We are more interested in the potential > of Iraq spoiling and destabilizing the region, attacking Israel, and > funding more terrorist attacks (possibly with weapons of mass > destruction). There is a clear and present danger. > Then why did you buy almost 300 million bbls of oil from Iraq in 2001? (they were your 6th largest supplier of crude oil according to the State Dept.) > > So, hopefully I've explained why we don't invade Pakistan and why we are > targeting Iraq. > Unfortunately all I see is inconsistency and hidden assumptions which aren't being examined. > > K'aya K'ama, > Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland "The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark." --Michelangelo Buonarroti Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
So seth you. I sis it differently. "My name is Anubeth. Who hath a problem with that?" -- a recent New Yorker cartoon. Paul Osborne wrote: > >Are you certain that our God is the one who commanded the Egyptian > >Pharaoh? Maybe it was one of those gods with animal heads. > > Hey--Joseph Smith identified our God as one who has a bird head. It's > right there in your scriptures and I believe it. God has a bird head! > Amen. > > Paul O > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. > > / > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland "The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark." --Michelangelo Buonarroti Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] hindsight
Gary wins a two-week vacation on the Black Sea! Gary Smith wrote: > We had placed missiles in Turkey. > > K'aya K'ama, > Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www > .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html > "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." - > Johann Wolfgang von Goethe > > Marc: > I know what you mean, but technically Khrushchev had nothing to do with > the > embargo of Cuba, which was put into place by the U.S. I think you mean > the > emplacement of missiles there. But what very few USAmericans realize, and > what > you apparently aren't taught is that this was in reprisal for something. > Trivia > time, boys and girls: anybody know what the original US action was that > prompted > the emplacement of missiles in Cuba? > > > > > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. > > / > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland "The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark." --Michelangelo Buonarroti Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
On Thu, 17 Oct 2002 07:04:23 -0400, "Elmer L. Fairbank" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: > At 19:23 10/16/2002 -0800, BLT wrote: > >We all have something of value to bring to the Church, even the lowliest > >among us. > > You rang No, Till, I think that was for me. Scott -- Buttered bread always lands butter side * Would YOU mistake these as down (Unless it sticks to the ceiling!) * anyone`s opinions but my own? Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Scott McGee) Web: http://scott.themcgees.org/ -- http://fastmail.fm - Email service worth paying for. Try it for free / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
I don't know where Pres. Hinckley or Monson stand -- to my knowledge they've never said -- but Pres. Faust has been active in the Democratic Party for years, and has made no secret about it. N. Eldon Tanner, a member of a 1P who has personal meaning for me (because I met him when I was a young child and he was my mother's stake president; I also know some of his grandchildren here in Alberta) was also a Democrat once he moved to the States; before that he'd been a long-serving member of Alberta's Social Credit government. Paul Osborne wrote: > >I don't think it means other saints aren't inspired. They just have > >different gifts. Seeing a sinister pattern in current events is > apparently > >not one of them. No problem. They are strong in other areas. And we > who > >can clearly see these things have other areas where we are > >blind. According to the 12th chapter of 1 Corinthians the Lord needs > all > >of the gifts in his Church. We all have something of value to bring to > the > >Church, even the lowliest among us. > > I'd pay top dollar to find out who the members of the First Presidency > and the Quorum of the Twelve voted for. > > Marc; who was it that you said was a Democrat? I wonder if President > Hinkley voted for Bush. Hmmm. > > I'll bet he did. > > Paul O > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. > > / > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland "The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark." --Michelangelo Buonarroti Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
>I don't think it means other saints aren't inspired. They just have >different gifts. Yeah, the gift to elect a Gadianton Robber for President. It sure was close. Thank you UTAH! ;-) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
>I don't think it means other saints aren't inspired. They just have >different gifts. Seeing a sinister pattern in current events is apparently >not one of them. No problem. They are strong in other areas. And we who >can clearly see these things have other areas where we are >blind. According to the 12th chapter of 1 Corinthians the Lord needs all >of the gifts in his Church. We all have something of value to bring to the >Church, even the lowliest among us. I'd pay top dollar to find out who the members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve voted for. Marc; who was it that you said was a Democrat? I wonder if President Hinkley voted for Bush. Hmmm. I'll bet he did. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
At 01:02 10/16/2002 +0800, Bishop Mark wrote: > > > Till is tired. Does that mean he is not worthy of awards? 8>)) > >Now don't start that again! Two more years, my friend. I know, I know, but in a moment of weakness we succumbed to temptation .. Till / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
After careful consideration, Paul Osborne wrote: Well, it's certainly nice to know that you guys are more inspired then the rest of the LDS voters. Too bad the Spirit hasn't touched the saints who voted Republican. They will pay for their errors! Repent you heathen Republicans! --- I don't think it means other saints aren't inspired. They just have different gifts. Seeing a sinister pattern in current events is apparently not one of them. No problem. They are strong in other areas. And we who can clearly see these things have other areas where we are blind. According to the 12th chapter of 1 Corinthians the Lord needs all of the gifts in his Church. We all have something of value to bring to the Church, even the lowliest among us. John W. Redelfs[EMAIL PROTECTED] *** "Even the Church shall be cleansed, and those who are of the world, who are numbered among the members of the Church, will be cast out, and will find their place among those who are unworthy, where there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." (Joseph Fielding Smith Jr., Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.3, p.16) *** All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
>All be if you were to do a study you would learn that >the so-called conspiracy theorists are a lot more likely to have a years >supply of food that the average active member. They vote differently too, >so they will not have nearly as much to answer for when they stand before >the Judge. Well, it's certainly nice to know that you guys are more inspired then the rest of the LDS voters. Too bad the Spirit hasn't touched the saints who voted Republican. They will pay for their errors! Repent you heathen Republicans! Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
I'm sure he does. But I was just repeating the promise as written. Jon Spencer wrote: > Marc A. Schindler wrote: > > D&C states clearly that if we follow his conditions, he'll fight out > battles for > > us. > > Doesn't God do most of His work through us? > > Jon > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland "The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark." --Michelangelo Buonarroti Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
Scott McGee wrote: > Mark, Marc, and John, > > Let me ask you a questions. I accept that our government is sufficiently > controlled by gadiantons that I have no real voice it. I see no way to > elect a truly worthy candidate now. > > My question, then, is what is the answer? As far as I can see, there is > no way to run the gadiantons out of control short of causing a majority > of the people to repent and seek for rightiousnes. That is what the > people of the Book of Mormon had to do. > I don't believe things are as far gone as others do. I believe much of the talk of gadiantons being in power is the talk of the dispossessed -- those who feel disenfranchised. Having said that, I know that as you gain more and more power, business interests pay more and more attention to you. I'm with Mark Gregson here, in believing that the Gadianton Robbers aren't a specific group of people who get together at midnight and light candles on skulls for their meetings, but simply the tendency of the military-industrial complex to integrate one with the other (what do retired generals and admirals do? They become "consultants '' == "salesman" for armaments companies). So John and I agree in principle, and I am not really sure the differences in detail are all that important. So what can we do? We have a 1P statement that *tells* us what to do: get involved in the political system, and learn, while you're at it, how the system works. Very many people get disillusioned because they think politics is about right and wrong. I'm sorry to have to tell you it isn't. It's about how to share power. The best politicians are those who can broker power the best. This is why, to some people, good people like Senator Hatch and Mitt Romneyappear to "sell out". They're not selling out, they're learning the game. I don't know as much about the grassroots level of how politcs works in the US, but to Canadians I'd suggest that you work for a candidate (at any level), become one of their scrutineers, see if you can get a job as a census taker, a poll clerk, whatever. Join a political party (any one -- I don't think it matters much which one: I've voted Social Credit, Progressive Conservative, Libertarian and Liberal) and get active, get to know people. Join professional and charitable organizations like the Elks, the Lions, the Kiwanis and so on. Volunteer at a soup kitchen. Call up your alderman, or your MLA's or MP's office and ask how you can help. > > I suspect that even if we could do that, we would still have to "wage > war" with these gadiantons just as the Book of Mormon peoples had to, > once they are driven from control of the government, as they will > certainly try to regain control by whatever means at their disposal. > > So, once again, what do you guys see as the answer? I will accept both > short and long term type answers so give either or both if you prefer. > > Scott -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland "The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark." --Michelangelo Buonarroti Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
On Wed, 16 Oct 2002 12:00:46 -0800, "John W. Redelfs" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: > After careful consideration, Scott McGee wrote: > >I agree that some things were obvious. This, for me, was not one of them, > >until one of the Lord's spokesmen told us in conference that we were to > >be peacemakers. I beleived him and now, to me, it is obvious. We should > >NOT be making war on Iraq. > > Good for you, Scott. It takes a Christlike man to abandon his wrong ideas > to comply with the prophets. John, You give me too much credit. I didn't support war with Iraq. I was a fence sitter because I saw wisdom in both side's arguements. When a Prophet of the Lord tells me that clearly, however, the debate is over and I obey. (Usually! Some of the things I was told equally clearly are still being worked on!) Scott -- Buttered bread always lands butter side * Would YOU mistake these as down (Unless it sticks to the ceiling!) * anyone`s opinions but my own? Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Scott McGee) Web: http://scott.themcgees.org/ / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
On Wed, 16 Oct 2002 10:13:41 -0800, "John W. Redelfs" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: > war, but not until then. The Law of War requires us to take the first > hit. Actually, it requires us to take the first four hits, but one in > any > case. Once, this nation could be counted on to act honorably. Where it only true today. Scott -- Buttered bread always lands butter side * Would YOU mistake these as down (Unless it sticks to the ceiling!) * anyone`s opinions but my own? Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Scott McGee) Web: http://scott.themcgees.org/ -- http://fastmail.fm/ - Consolidate POP email and Hotmail in one place / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
On Wed, 16 Oct 2002 07:19:38 -0400, "Jon Spencer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: > John - > Surely you miswrote! Are you trying to say that the Nephites were at war > with terrorists (the Gadiantons)? Or are you saying that the only time > the > Nephites struck out at the Gadiantons was when the Lamanites were also > attacking the Nephites? The Nephite nation DID go to war with the Gadiantons. The gadiantons had set up a society outside that of the Nephite and Lamanite society and basically started a war. Once they brought large armies of men to attack Nephite cities, then yes, the Nephites did go to war with them. It became sort of a reverse seige. The Nephites, who were holed up inside their fortifications, staved out the Gadiantons who were beseiging them. Scott -- Buttered bread always lands butter side * Would YOU mistake these as down (Unless it sticks to the ceiling!) * anyone`s opinions but my own? Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Scott McGee) Web: http://scott.themcgees.org/ -- http://fastmail.fm/ - Access your email from home and the web / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
After careful consideration, Scott McGee wrote: >I agree that some things were obvious. This, for me, was not one of them, >until one of the Lord's spokesmen told us in conference that we were to >be peacemakers. I beleived him and now, to me, it is obvious. We should >NOT be making war on Iraq. Good for you, Scott. It takes a Christlike man to abandon his wrong ideas to comply with the prophets. I have a hard time doing it. For instance, I am supposed to stop deliberately baiting the dissidents and Signaturi as I enjoy doing. I am suppose to put my arm around them and love them back into the Church, to strengthen the feeble knees, etc. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] "It is an eternal principle that has existed with God from all Eternity that that man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly that that man is in the high road to apostacy" (Ehat & Cook, WORDS OF JOSEPH SMITH, p. 413) All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
On Wed, 16 Oct 2002 07:16:44 -0400, "Jon Spencer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: > > I would do a complete flip-flop on war with Iraq if the Lord commanded > > us. But to the best of my knowledge he has not, has he? --JWR > > You need not be commanded in all things. Some things are obvious! :-) Jon, I agree that some things were obvious. This, for me, was not one of them, until one of the Lord's spokesmen told us in conference that we were to be peacemakers. I beleived him and now, to me, it is obvious. We should NOT be making war on Iraq. Scott -- Buttered bread always lands butter side * Would YOU mistake these as down (Unless it sticks to the ceiling!) * anyone`s opinions but my own? Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Scott McGee) Web: http://scott.themcgees.org/ -- http://fastmail.fm - Choose from over 50 domains or use your own / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
After careful consideration, Scott McGee wrote: >Let me ask you a questions. I accept that our government is sufficiently >controlled by gadiantons that I have no real voice it. I see no way to >elect a truly worthy candidate now. I don't either. The time for that is past. >My question, then, is what is the answer? As far as I can see, there is >no way to run the gadiantons out of control short of causing a majority >of the people to repent and seek for rightiousnes. That is what the >people of the Book of Mormon had to do. What is the answer? I don't think there is a solution except to let the disease run its course. We could have kept it from starting. Perhaps we could have killed it while it was young and tender. But now that it has gained strength, this evil is unassailable through the electoral process. Does this mean that we should despair. No, there are other things we can do. Men all over the world have lived under totalitarianism throughout history, and we can do it too. But I think that the things we can do are local and in our families. Can we have an effect on our local city council or on the school board? Of course we can. And when we work within our families to educate a new generation, we are doing much to keep the spark of freedom alive until conditions are different. This spark is passed down in families. You see, we really don't have to do anything. The Lord has explained that these Gadianton murderers are going to fight among themselves until their house of cards is destroyed. Consider these words from the Book of Mormon: --- 13 And the blood of that great and abominable church, which is the whore of all the earth, shall turn upon their own heads; for they shall war among themselves, and the sword of their own hands shall fall upon their own heads, and they shall be drunken with their own blood. 14 And every nation which shall war against thee, O house of Israel, shall be turned one against another, and they shall fall into the pit which they digged to ensnare the people of the Lord. And all that fight against Zion shall be destroyed, and that great whore, who hath perverted the right ways of the Lord, yea, that great and abominable church, shall tumble to the dust and great shall be the fall of it. (Book of Mormon | 1 Nephi 22:13 - 14) [...] 16 For the time soon cometh that the fulness of the wrath of God shall be poured out upon all the children of men; for he will not suffer that the wicked shall destroy the righteous. 17 Wherefore, he will preserve the righteous by his power, even if it so be that the fulness of his wrath must come, and the righteous be preserved, even unto the destruction of their enemies by fire. Wherefore, the righteous need not fear; for thus saith the prophet, they shall be saved, even if it so be as by fire. (Book of Mormon | 1 Nephi 22:16 - 17) So you see, here in the last days we don't have to overthrow the Gadianton Robbers. They are going to do it themselves. Our job is to protect our families and communities as be we can. And that can be accomplished most effectively if we understand who these Gadianton's are and what their evil plans for us are. How many Church members actually have a years supply of food? Half? A third? Even less? All be if you were to do a study you would learn that the so-called conspiracy theorists are a lot more likely to have a years supply of food that the average active member. They vote differently too, so they will not have nearly as much to answer for when they stand before the Judge. >I suspect that even if we could do that, we would still have to "wage >war" with these gadiantons just as the Book of Mormon peoples had to, >once they are driven from control of the government, as they will >certainly try to regain control by whatever means at their disposal. I don't think it is going to be with us the same as it was with the ancient Nephites. We do not have to root the cancer out by overthrowing our government. It is too late for that. Besides, they are going to do it for us by fighting among themselves. In the meantime, there is much that each of us can do by way of protecting our families and our local communities against their evil influence. This great secret combination is powerful, but it is not omnipotent. And the Lord is. They can't be everywhere at once, but the Lord's influence can. If you or I were to work to clean up the corruption in the local city government, and work within the school board to provide a better education for our children, the Gadianton Robbers aren't going to be able to stop us. They will be far too busy fighting an unjust war in Iraq or somewhere else. >So, once again, what do you guys see as the answer? I will accept both >short and long term type answers so give either or both if you prefer. The answer as I see it is to repent, awake, and prepare. Saints all over the world are ruled by vario
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
After careful consideration, Jon Spencer wrote: >Surely you miswrote! Are you trying to say that the Nephites were at war >with terrorists (the Gadiantons)? Or are you saying that the only time the >Nephites struck out at the Gadiantons was when the Lamanites were also >attacking the Nephites? > >If so, then its back to the Book of Mormon for you! Apparently you have misunderstood me, Jon. I'm saying that after an enemy has come against us, forcing us to defend ourselves, after we are already in a war not of our own making, then we are justified in preemptive strikes. We can start a battle if we are already in a war. But they must start the war, not us. I hope that is more clear. Saddam Hussein did not attack us on 9-11. I'm not even sure we know who attacked us. I have been told thousands of times that it was Osama bin Laden and Al-Qaeda, but no one has offered to lay the evidence before the American people. I guess we are just supposed to believe whatever we read in the newspaper or hear on TV. If Saddam Hussein tries to land troop on our beaches, or actually use some of the weapons of mass destruction on us, then we are justified in making war, but not until then. The Law of War requires us to take the first hit. Actually, it requires us to take the first four hits, but one in any case. The point being that most Americans are far too willing to got to war on the slightest provocation. We are a warlike people just like the British before us. And the Lord is not pleased. We Americans need to be peacemakers, not war mongers. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === "The gospel, the kingdom of God, can prosper only in an atmosphere of freedom." --Ezra Taft Benson === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
After careful consideration, Jon Spencer wrote: > > I would do a complete flip-flop on war with Iraq if the Lord commanded > > us. But to the best of my knowledge he has not, has he? --JWR > >You need not be commanded in all things. Some things are obvious! :-) According to the Lord's Law of War delivered to us in the 98th Section of the Doctrine and Covenants, this is one of the things that we must be commanded in. Read it yourself: --- 33 And again, this is the law that I gave unto mine ancients, that they should not go out unto battle against any nation, kindred, tongue, or people, save I, the Lord, commanded them. (Doctrine and Covenants | Section 98:33) --- We are not to take plural wives without being commanded either. The Lord tells us that in Jacob, Chapter Two. While it is not good for us to be commanded in all things, there are some things that we MUST be commanded in. That is what the Lord has said. John W. Redelfs[EMAIL PROTECTED] *** "Our Constitution was designed only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other." (John Adams, 1789) *** All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
> My question, then, is what is the answer? As far as I can see, there is no way to >run the gadiantons out of control short of causing a majority of the people to repent >and seek for rightiousnes. That is what the people of the Book of Mormon had to do. I agree. So it isn't going to happen before the Lord comes. All we can do is save as many as possible before the end. > I suspect that even if we could do that, we would still have to "wage war" with >these gadiantons just as the Book of Mormon peoples had to, once they are driven from >control of the government, as they will certainly try to regain control by whatever >means at their disposal. You raise an interesting question (hypothetical, I'm sorry to say). What _would_ happen if the vast majority of the people repented? Let's simplify by considering only two "levels" of repentance: a lesser form of turning away from evil, and the greater version of repenting enough to be baptized. 1.) The vast majority of people turn away from evil. To me this includes forsaking immorality, abortion, pornography, alcholhol, dishonesty, greed and so on. For example, Hollywood would lose money on every immoral movie. Abortions and divorces would drop to practically zero. Fathers would not abuse or abandon spouses or children, etc. However, people would still willingly serve in government, in the media, in the military and still have widely different views of how to do things. 2.) People repent and accept the gospel. All of the above, and more too, including actively following the prophets. In either of these two scenarios (lamentably, neither of which will happen before the Lord comes) will the end result be bloodshed? Let's assume that the Gadiantons and all the core supporters of present evil (e.g. the Hollywood producer who finances filthy movies) don't repent. I really have no idea what would happen. I guess it would depend on how quickly it happened, where it started and how desperate the bad guys became. How would a Gadianton gain control in a righteous nation? He could only do it by deceit. But once he had some power, how could he use it? He would be opposed at every step. So he needs partners in crime, other Gadiantons that have gained their power by deceit. Okay, so now they have a cadre of wicked men in power, opposed by the vast majority of people. That is, the people oppose what those men really want. What will they do and how will they do it? = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- __ Download the FREE Opera browser at www.opera.com/download/ Free OperaMail at http://www.operamail.com/ Powered by Outblaze / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
Marc A. Schindler wrote: > D&C states clearly that if we follow his conditions, he'll fight out battles for > us. Doesn't God do most of His work through us? Jon / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
The Lord explicitly says that if we follow his conditions he'll fight our wars for us. Jon Spencer wrote: > > I would do a complete flip-flop on war with Iraq if the Lord commanded > > us. But to the best of my knowledge he has not, has he? --JWR > > You need not be commanded in all things. Some things are obvious! :-) > > Jon > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland "The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark." --Michelangelo Buonarroti Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
Mark, Marc, and John, Let me ask you a questions. I accept that our government is sufficiently controlled by gadiantons that I have no real voice it. I see no way to elect a truly worthy candidate now. My question, then, is what is the answer? As far as I can see, there is no way to run the gadiantons out of control short of causing a majority of the people to repent and seek for rightiousnes. That is what the people of the Book of Mormon had to do. I suspect that even if we could do that, we would still have to "wage war" with these gadiantons just as the Book of Mormon peoples had to, once they are driven from control of the government, as they will certainly try to regain control by whatever means at their disposal. So, once again, what do you guys see as the answer? I will accept both short and long term type answers so give either or both if you prefer. Scott -- Buttered bread always lands butter side * Would YOU mistake these as down (Unless it sticks to the ceiling!) * anyone`s opinions but my own? Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Scott McGee) Web: http://scott.themcgees.org/ -- http://fastmail.fm/ - The professional email service / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
On Tue, 15 Oct 2002 12:22:48 -0400, "Elmer L. Fairbank" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: > Till is tired. Does that mean he is not worthy of awards? 8>)) Till, Scott is tired too. However, should you feel it worth calling an award, I consider you my friend and that is not an "award" I hand out often or lightly. Scott -- Buttered bread always lands butter side * Would YOU mistake these as down (Unless it sticks to the ceiling!) * anyone`s opinions but my own? Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Scott McGee) Web: http://scott.themcgees.org/ / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
Gary Smith wrote: > Wait a minute Capt Moroni lived under the Mosaic Law. Surely that > command is what would apply to him. Besides, just because Christ > fulfilled the Mosaic Law, does not mean he totally supplanted it. There > are many things in the Law of Moses we still abide by: Ten Commandments, > for instance. > Actually we abide by the Two Commandments. > > And wars of aggression were commanded by God. If something is commanded > of God, like Nephi slaying Laban, This was hardly a war, and was pre-Christ. > does that command suddenly get > supplanted by Christ's law? Would that mean that we should look upon > Nephi's killing Laban as an evil act, since Christ told us to turn the > other cheek and pray for those who despitefully use us? > > The Mosaic Law is a Terrestrial Law. It is a subset of the Celestial Law > of Christ. It wasn't destroyed at Christ's coming, but just superceded. > If God were to command a new Zion's Army to retake Independence, would > you think it too Mosaic? Or would you just believe that whatever the Lord > commands is what is in vogue. D&C states clearly that if we follow his conditions, he'll fight out battles for us. > > > When Moses and Joshua led Israel to aggressive wars, the only reason God > gave for it was that those nations had ripened in iniquity and He wanted > them thrust out and totally obliterated: even women, children and > animals. So exacting was this order that when Saul mercifully saved a > king's life, Samuel hacked him to pieces to show obedience to God. Who > was doing right? Saul in mercy, or Samuel in obedience? > > As I mentioned in a previous post, Capt Moroni was involved in > pre-emptive attacks. The Nephites, in their righteousness, attempted to > drive the Gadiantons out. I know some on this list fear being involved in > world wars, or world governments, but the reality is we can't allow the > Gadiantons to grow out of control. Do I think we can stop Gadiantons? No. > But I also believe that if we stand by as the wicked Nephites did, we > will end up with a nation in decline/collapse. > But the Gadiantons weren't an external threat, but an internal threat. I think you have the right to an aggressive war against the Montana Militia, for instance ;-) > > There is no question of the dangers of Saddam. Even Marc doesn't oppose > his being toppled. So let's stop pretending that all wars of aggression > are evil. They aren't. And in reality, this is NOT a war of aggression. > We are at war with a difficult enemy. The best chance we have at slowing > terrorists down is to fight those governments that support it. Pakistan > is currently playing on our side, so until that changes, we need to pick > our battles against out right enemies. > That I believe Saddam Hussein should be toppled does not lead, in my mind, to the conclusion that we or you are the ones to do it. > > K'aya K'ama, > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland "The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark." --Michelangelo Buonarroti Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
John - Surely you miswrote! Are you trying to say that the Nephites were at war with terrorists (the Gadiantons)? Or are you saying that the only time the Nephites struck out at the Gadiantons was when the Lamanites were also attacking the Nephites? If so, then its back to the Book of Mormon for you! Or, perhaps, you are actually agreeing with us, and saying that we are at war with the terrorists, wherever they may be, and you agree with Bush's policy. If so, I am pleased that you have finally come to your senses. Jon John W. Redelfs wrote: > After careful consideration, Gary Smith wrote: > >As I mentioned in a previous post, Capt Moroni was involved in pre-emptive > >attacks. > > Captain Moroni's pre-emptive attacks were in the context of an ongoing > war. I don't believe he ever attacked the Lamanites or the Gadiantons > during a time of peace. I'm talking about the difference between a war and > a battle. Surely if we are at war, then a battle may morally be > pre-emptive. But we have not been at war with Iraq since the Persian Gulf > War. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
> I would do a complete flip-flop on war with Iraq if the Lord commanded > us. But to the best of my knowledge he has not, has he? --JWR You need not be commanded in all things. Some things are obvious! :-) Jon / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
At 15:03 10/15/2002 -0400, Jon the confused wrote: >Opps! You are a Bishop now, aren't you? Well, you say you want another >ward? You're wacko! > >Jon > > > > > Till is tired. Does that mean he is not worthy of awards? 8>)) > > > > No. You want a ward? You really want to be a Bishop? You think you're > > tired now > > You seem to be confusing the lowly old Till, who is not worthy to tie shoes, with his exalted presence, the Bishop of Park and Ride. Till (ps, a thousand pardons, O Bishop Mark) / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
At 14:57 10/15/2002 -0400, mean ol' Jon wrote: > > Till is tired. Does that mean he is not worthy of awards? 8>)) > >No. You want a ward? You really want to be a Bishop? You think you're >tired now Noo, n, no Till (Where's the Tam when we really need her?) / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
After careful consideration, Gary Smith wrote: >As I mentioned in a previous post, Capt Moroni was involved in pre-emptive >attacks. Captain Moroni's pre-emptive attacks were in the context of an ongoing war. I don't believe he ever attacked the Lamanites or the Gadiantons during a time of peace. I'm talking about the difference between a war and a battle. Surely if we are at war, then a battle may morally be pre-emptive. But we have not been at war with Iraq since the Persian Gulf War. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === "It may be, for instance, that nothing except the power of faith and the authority of the priesthood can save individuals and congregations from the atomic holocausts that surely shall be." --Bruce R. McConkie === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
After careful consideration, Gary Smith wrote: >And wars of aggression were commanded by God. If something is commanded >of God, like Nephi slaying Laban, does that command suddenly get >supplanted by Christ's law? Would that mean that we should look upon >Nephi's killing Laban as an evil act, since Christ told us to turn the >other cheek and pray for those who despitefully use us? I would do a complete flip-flop on war with Iraq if the Lord commanded us. But to the best of my knowledge he has not, has he? --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
I pretty much agree with everything you said, Gary. And, I want to thank you for serving in the Armed Forces. Paul O On Wed, 16 Oct 2002 00:17:42 -0500 Gary Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Wait a minute Capt Moroni lived under the Mosaic Law. Surely > that > command is what would apply to him. Besides, just because Christ > fulfilled the Mosaic Law, does not mean he totally supplanted it. > There > are many things in the Law of Moses we still abide by: Ten > Commandments, > for instance. > > And wars of aggression were commanded by God. If something is > commanded > of God, like Nephi slaying Laban, does that command suddenly get > supplanted by Christ's law? Would that mean that we should look > upon > Nephi's killing Laban as an evil act, since Christ told us to turn > the > other cheek and pray for those who despitefully use us? > > The Mosaic Law is a Terrestrial Law. It is a subset of the Celestial > Law > of Christ. It wasn't destroyed at Christ's coming, but just > superceded. > If God were to command a new Zion's Army to retake Independence, > would > you think it too Mosaic? Or would you just believe that whatever the > Lord > commands is what is in vogue. > > When Moses and Joshua led Israel to aggressive wars, the only reason > God > gave for it was that those nations had ripened in iniquity and He > wanted > them thrust out and totally obliterated: even women, children and > animals. So exacting was this order that when Saul mercifully saved > a > king's life, Samuel hacked him to pieces to show obedience to God. > Who > was doing right? Saul in mercy, or Samuel in obedience? > > As I mentioned in a previous post, Capt Moroni was involved in > pre-emptive attacks. The Nephites, in their righteousness, attempted > to > drive the Gadiantons out. I know some on this list fear being > involved in > world wars, or world governments, but the reality is we can't allow > the > Gadiantons to grow out of control. Do I think we can stop > Gadiantons? No. > But I also believe that if we stand by as the wicked Nephites did, > we > will end up with a nation in decline/collapse. > > As for the CFR/TC worries of JWR and others, just what would you > have us > do? Who do you suggest we trust? If even decent people are totally > duped > by them, then what is the solution? Why don't we have General > Authorities > warning us of them today? Why didn't Ezra Taft Benson warn us about > the > CFR? In fact, If my memory serves me right, I think Eisenhower > belonged > to the CFR, and he hired ETB as his Agricultural Secretary. Does > that > mean ETB was duped? Should we all move to Alaska to hide from all > the > conspiracy theories? What if someone starts a new one saying that > there > are secret combinations in Alaska? Then where do we hide? > > The reality is, they exist and we can't run nor hide from them. I > can't > fight a hidden enemy, but I can fight the ones that build armies and > come > out in the open. When we have actual evidence against the CFR, then > I'll > worry about them. But until they launch a direct attack on our > nation or > the Constitution, I'll have to pick my battles. I have no proof > that > Bush is evil or that he is duped by evil men. Therefore, I must > trust > that he will do his humanly best to guide us. > > There is no question of the dangers of Saddam. Even Marc doesn't > oppose > his being toppled. So let's stop pretending that all wars of > aggression > are evil. They aren't. And in reality, this is NOT a war of > aggression. > We are at war with a difficult enemy. The best chance we have at > slowing > terrorists down is to fight those governments that support it. > Pakistan > is currently playing on our side, so until that changes, we need to > pick > our battles against out right enemies. > > K'aya K'ama, > Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www > .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html > "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's > free." - > Johann Wolfgang von Goethe > > > Marc: > > And Christ came to fulfill the OT law and offer a higher law. (IOW, > use > the term > "Bible" less categorically and I think you'll see a stark contrast > between OT and > NT ideas). GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
I take your post in the spirit intended. As you know, my "energy" is ephemeral and I have the advantage of having more control over my time, although not in a way I'd prefer. At any rate, I'm glad someone's finally noticed that neither John nor I are getting answers to what I think are pretty straightforward questions. One person has mentioned Pakistan, iirc, so I do have to give credit where credit's due, but while I don't think it's a conspiracy theory, I do think that the war in Iraq is a magician's sleight-of-hand that has to do more with US domestic policies than anything the US might care about in the Middle East (except, in a complicated indirect way wrt oil supply). Mark Gregson wrote: > > > So I will ask yet again: why Iraq specifically and not Pakistan? Pakistan is a > > far greater threat. > > You have got to admire Marc for his tenacity. I vote for some kind of award for him >for this constant call to examine just who needs to be pounded. John is beating the >same drum with slightly different drumsticks. Both of them should get awards. But >maybe not until they get answers. > > No one has yet aswered either of them. Everytime Marc says "Why not get Pakistan?", >the reply is "Iraq is so bad" and everytime John says "The Book of Mormon is always >about defense, never offense," we get, "The Nephites attacked so and so," completely >ignoring the fact that the example used precisely supports John's argument. > > I'm just happy to see that neither Marc nor John is tired. You have to admire their >energy. > > = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = > > > -- > __ > > Download the FREE Opera browser at www.opera.com/download/ > > Free OperaMail at http://www.operamail.com/ > > Powered by Outblaze > > / > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland "The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark." --Michelangelo Buonarroti Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
Finally, someone else is beginning to see the danger Pakistan presents. One minor correction: Saddam Hussein is not an "Islamic" military dictator. He's a secularist, albeit still a military dictator. Larry Jackson wrote: > John Redelfs: > > After careful consideration, Larry Jackson wrote: > >I don't think we're after him because of September 11th. I > >think we're after him because our president believes he > >plans to obtain a nuclear weapon and use it against us. > > > >I haven't noticed any of those other countries planning to > >do so. > > What about Pakistan? Didn't they obtain a nuclear capability > without no objection from us? And it is not a democracy. > Musharef is a Islamic military dictator just as Hussein is. > > ___ > > The difference in my mind is that our president does not believe > he plans to obtain a nuclear weapon (if he doesn't already have > one) and use it against us. > > Larry Jackson > > / > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland "The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark." --Michelangelo Buonarroti Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
Opps! You are a Bishop now, aren't you? Well, you say you want another ward? You're wacko! Jon > > Till is tired. Does that mean he is not worthy of awards? 8>)) > > No. You want a ward? You really want to be a Bishop? You think you're > tired now > > Jon / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
> Till is tired. Does that mean he is not worthy of awards? 8>)) No. You want a ward? You really want to be a Bishop? You think you're tired now Jon / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Hindsight
John Redelfs: After careful consideration, Larry Jackson wrote: >I don't think we're after him because of September 11th. I >think we're after him because our president believes he >plans to obtain a nuclear weapon and use it against us. > >I haven't noticed any of those other countries planning to >do so. What about Pakistan? Didn't they obtain a nuclear capability without no objection from us? And it is not a democracy. Musharef is a Islamic military dictator just as Hussein is. ___ The difference in my mind is that our president does not believe he plans to obtain a nuclear weapon (if he doesn't already have one) and use it against us. Larry Jackson / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
> Till is tired. Does that mean he is not worthy of awards? 8>)) Now don't start that again! Two more years, my friend. = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- __ Download the FREE Opera browser at www.opera.com/download/ Free OperaMail at http://www.operamail.com/ Powered by Outblaze / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
At 00:15 10/16/2002 +0800, Bishop Mark wrote from his elevated position: >I'm just happy to see that neither Marc nor John is tired. You have to >admire their energy. Till is tired. Does that mean he is not worthy of awards? 8>)) / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
> So I will ask yet again: why Iraq specifically and not Pakistan? Pakistan is a > far greater threat. You have got to admire Marc for his tenacity. I vote for some kind of award for him for this constant call to examine just who needs to be pounded. John is beating the same drum with slightly different drumsticks. Both of them should get awards. But maybe not until they get answers. No one has yet aswered either of them. Everytime Marc says "Why not get Pakistan?", the reply is "Iraq is so bad" and everytime John says "The Book of Mormon is always about defense, never offense," we get, "The Nephites attacked so and so," completely ignoring the fact that the example used precisely supports John's argument. I'm just happy to see that neither Marc nor John is tired. You have to admire their energy. = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- __ Download the FREE Opera browser at www.opera.com/download/ Free OperaMail at http://www.operamail.com/ Powered by Outblaze / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
And these are wars of expansion how, exactly? Utah taking over Colorado with the Lord's angels at the head of legions of BYU sophomores? Johnson's Army was a long time ago. We are not beset by the kind of situation that the Israelites were. Steven Montgomery wrote: > While I agree with you regarding righteous wars, I don't necessarily agree > with your statement that "Zion doesn't expand through warfare > anymore." For instance, why has the Lord repeatedly stated that, after we > have done our part, He would fight our battles. > > -- > Steven Montgomery > > At 07:41 PM 10/14/2002, you wrote: > >The law is the same: a war is righteous if the Lord commands it (this is > >in the > >BoM, the D&C and in numerous 1P statements). But since the meridian of > >time there > >have been few, if any, such commandments. Zion doesn't expand through warfare > >anymore. That's what's meant by fulfilling the law. You don't overthrow > >it. This > >objection (below) is similar to the reaction the Pharisees had to Jesus's > >claims > >(nothing personal against Steven). > > > >Steven Montgomery wrote: > > > > > So, when the LORD declared unto Joshua that he had delivered the Amorites > > > into his hand or when the LORD himself cast down "great stones from heaven" > > > to slay the Amorites this was somehow fulfilling a lesser law? I fail to > > > understand how the Israelites were somehow keeping a lesser law when God > > > himself commanded them to slay the wicked and who occasionally (when the > > > Israelites were righteous) fought their battles. > > > > > > -- > > > Steven Montgomery > > > > > > At 01:07 PM 10/14/2002, you wrote: > > > >And Christ came to fulfill the OT law and offer a higher law. (IOW, use > > > >the term > > > >"Bible" less categorically and I think you'll see a stark contrast between > > > >OT and > > > >NT ideas). > > > > > > > >Jon Spencer wrote: > > > > > > > > > John W. Redelfs wrote: > > > > > > Actually, the only time the Nephites went on a search and destroy > > > > mission, > > > > > > following the Gadiantons up into the mountains, they were soundly > > > > defeated > > > > > > and had to withdraw. The Book of Mormon is the story of national > > > > DEFENSE, > > > > > > not offense. --JWR > > > > > > > > > > Your offense is my defense. > > > > > > > > > > And in the Bible, also God's word, there were many offensive > > defenses put > > > > > up. > > > > > > > > > > Jon > > > > > > > > > > > > >-- > > > >Marc A. Schindler > > > >Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland > > > > > > > >"The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too > > high and > > > >falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark." > > > >--Michelangelo Buonarroti > > > > > > > >Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the > > author > > > >solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author's > > > >employer, > > > >nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. > > > > > > > >/// > > // > > > >/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > > > >/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > > > >/// > > // > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Steven Montgomery > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.getusout.org";> > > src="http://www.getusout.org/images/guolink.gif";> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > / > > > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > > > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > > > > > / > > > > > > >-- > >Marc A. Schindler > >Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland > > > >"The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and > >falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark." > >--Michelangelo Buonarroti > > > >Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author > >solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author's > >employer, > >nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. > > > >/ > >/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > >/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > >/ > > > > -- > Steven Montgomery > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > http://www.getusout.org";> src="http://www.getusout.org/images/guolink.gif";> > > > > > / > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > ///
RE: [ZION] Hindsight
After careful consideration, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >I don't think we're after him because of September 11th. I >think we're after him because our president believes he >plans to obtain a nuclear weapon and use it against us. > >I haven't noticed any of those other countries planning to >do so. What about Pakistan? Didn't they obtain a nuclear capability without no objection from us? And it is not a democracy. Musharef is a Islamic military dictator just as Hussein is. >On the other hand, terrorism is in every country and among >every people. If we are going to cut to the chase, Satan is >the one we're after. I agree. But since we can't get to him except by repenting, there is no one to declare war on except his mortal agents. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === "The gospel, the kingdom of God, can prosper only in an atmosphere of freedom." --Ezra Taft Benson === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > John Redelfs: > > And Saddam is? What makes you think he is behind the > attack on 9-11? Actually, if you trace the money and arms > back another notch, I think you will find that Russia and > China are heavily promoting terrorism, using these Saudis, > Iraqis, Afghanis, etc. to hide their meddling. Maybe we > should just cut to the chase and attack China, do you think? > > ___ > > I don't think we're after him because of September 11th. I > think we're after him because our president believes he > plans to obtain a nuclear weapon and use it against us. > > I haven't noticed any of those other countries planning to > do so. > China and Russia are already nuclear powers, and while I don't think they plan on using nuclear weapons against us, (John may disagree wrt to China, but my point doesn't hinge on that anyway), they still represent threats in indirect ways. Russian and Ukrainian and Kazakh nuclear scientists are a dime a dozen and Russia can't afford to pay them anymore. Guess where they are going? And no metal detector, no passport and no x-ray machine is going to detect what you have in your grey matter when you cross borders. China's a threat because they may threaten the region, but as I say, it's indirect, and in any case I don't think they have super-regional imperialistic visions. Pakistan is, as I keep harping about, in my opinion, at least potentially the most dangerous nation right now to the world as a whole (this is not meant as a slight to my Pakistani friends in the least, but it is a hard country, born out of discord, with mistrust as a wetnurse and trained in the ways of violence and hate), to the west as a civilization and to the United States as a nation-state. So, I ask myself, is Bush dumb? Ill-advised? I don't think so. Which means there has to be a reason for this war-mongering. Follow the money. > > On the other hand, terrorism is in every country and among > every people. If we are going to cut to the chase, Satan is > the one we're after. > Bingo. And he doesn't have a capital city we can bomb. You know the saying: generals are always fighting the last war. > > Larry Jackson -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland "The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark." --Michelangelo Buonarroti Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
RE: [ZION] Hindsight
John Redelfs: And Saddam is? What makes you think he is behind the attack on 9-11? Actually, if you trace the money and arms back another notch, I think you will find that Russia and China are heavily promoting terrorism, using these Saudis, Iraqis, Afghanis, etc. to hide their meddling. Maybe we should just cut to the chase and attack China, do you think? ___ I don't think we're after him because of September 11th. I think we're after him because our president believes he plans to obtain a nuclear weapon and use it against us. I haven't noticed any of those other countries planning to do so. On the other hand, terrorism is in every country and among every people. If we are going to cut to the chase, Satan is the one we're after. Larry Jackson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
While I agree with you regarding righteous wars, I don't necessarily agree with your statement that "Zion doesn't expand through warfare anymore." For instance, why has the Lord repeatedly stated that, after we have done our part, He would fight our battles. -- Steven Montgomery At 07:41 PM 10/14/2002, you wrote: >The law is the same: a war is righteous if the Lord commands it (this is >in the >BoM, the D&C and in numerous 1P statements). But since the meridian of >time there >have been few, if any, such commandments. Zion doesn't expand through warfare >anymore. That's what's meant by fulfilling the law. You don't overthrow >it. This >objection (below) is similar to the reaction the Pharisees had to Jesus's >claims >(nothing personal against Steven). > >Steven Montgomery wrote: > > > So, when the LORD declared unto Joshua that he had delivered the Amorites > > into his hand or when the LORD himself cast down "great stones from heaven" > > to slay the Amorites this was somehow fulfilling a lesser law? I fail to > > understand how the Israelites were somehow keeping a lesser law when God > > himself commanded them to slay the wicked and who occasionally (when the > > Israelites were righteous) fought their battles. > > > > -- > > Steven Montgomery > > > > At 01:07 PM 10/14/2002, you wrote: > > >And Christ came to fulfill the OT law and offer a higher law. (IOW, use > > >the term > > >"Bible" less categorically and I think you'll see a stark contrast between > > >OT and > > >NT ideas). > > > > > >Jon Spencer wrote: > > > > > > > John W. Redelfs wrote: > > > > > Actually, the only time the Nephites went on a search and destroy > > > mission, > > > > > following the Gadiantons up into the mountains, they were soundly > > > defeated > > > > > and had to withdraw. The Book of Mormon is the story of national > > > DEFENSE, > > > > > not offense. --JWR > > > > > > > > Your offense is my defense. > > > > > > > > And in the Bible, also God's word, there were many offensive > defenses put > > > > up. > > > > > > > > Jon > > > > > > > > > >-- > > >Marc A. Schindler > > >Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland > > > > > >"The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too > high and > > >falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark." > > >--Michelangelo Buonarroti > > > > > >Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the > author > > >solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author's > > >employer, > > >nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. > > > > > >/// > // > > >/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > > >/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > > >/// > // > > > > > > > -- > > Steven Montgomery > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > http://www.getusout.org";> > src="http://www.getusout.org/images/guolink.gif";> > > > > > > > > > > > / > > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > > > / > > > >-- >Marc A. Schindler >Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland > >"The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and >falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark." >--Michelangelo Buonarroti > >Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author >solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author's >employer, >nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. > >/ >/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// >/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// >/ > -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.getusout.org";>http://www.getusout.org/images/guolink.gif";> / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
The law is the same: a war is righteous if the Lord commands it (this is in the BoM, the D&C and in numerous 1P statements). But since the meridian of time there have been few, if any, such commandments. Zion doesn't expand through warfare anymore. That's what's meant by fulfilling the law. You don't overthrow it. This objection (below) is similar to the reaction the Pharisees had to Jesus's claims (nothing personal against Steven). Steven Montgomery wrote: > So, when the LORD declared unto Joshua that he had delivered the Amorites > into his hand or when the LORD himself cast down "great stones from heaven" > to slay the Amorites this was somehow fulfilling a lesser law? I fail to > understand how the Israelites were somehow keeping a lesser law when God > himself commanded them to slay the wicked and who occasionally (when the > Israelites were righteous) fought their battles. > > -- > Steven Montgomery > > At 01:07 PM 10/14/2002, you wrote: > >And Christ came to fulfill the OT law and offer a higher law. (IOW, use > >the term > >"Bible" less categorically and I think you'll see a stark contrast between > >OT and > >NT ideas). > > > >Jon Spencer wrote: > > > > > John W. Redelfs wrote: > > > > Actually, the only time the Nephites went on a search and destroy > > mission, > > > > following the Gadiantons up into the mountains, they were soundly > > defeated > > > > and had to withdraw. The Book of Mormon is the story of national > > DEFENSE, > > > > not offense. --JWR > > > > > > Your offense is my defense. > > > > > > And in the Bible, also God's word, there were many offensive defenses put > > > up. > > > > > > Jon > > > > > > >-- > >Marc A. Schindler > >Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland > > > >"The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and > >falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark." > >--Michelangelo Buonarroti > > > >Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author > >solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author's > >employer, > >nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. > > > >/ > >/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > >/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > >/ > > > > -- > Steven Montgomery > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > http://www.getusout.org";> src="http://www.getusout.org/images/guolink.gif";> > > > > > / > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland "The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark." --Michelangelo Buonarroti Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
So, when the LORD declared unto Joshua that he had delivered the Amorites into his hand or when the LORD himself cast down "great stones from heaven" to slay the Amorites this was somehow fulfilling a lesser law? I fail to understand how the Israelites were somehow keeping a lesser law when God himself commanded them to slay the wicked and who occasionally (when the Israelites were righteous) fought their battles. -- Steven Montgomery At 01:07 PM 10/14/2002, you wrote: >And Christ came to fulfill the OT law and offer a higher law. (IOW, use >the term >"Bible" less categorically and I think you'll see a stark contrast between >OT and >NT ideas). > >Jon Spencer wrote: > > > John W. Redelfs wrote: > > > Actually, the only time the Nephites went on a search and destroy > mission, > > > following the Gadiantons up into the mountains, they were soundly > defeated > > > and had to withdraw. The Book of Mormon is the story of national > DEFENSE, > > > not offense. --JWR > > > > Your offense is my defense. > > > > And in the Bible, also God's word, there were many offensive defenses put > > up. > > > > Jon > > > >-- >Marc A. Schindler >Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland > >"The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and >falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark." >--Michelangelo Buonarroti > >Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author >solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author's >employer, >nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. > >/ >/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// >/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// >/ > -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.getusout.org";>http://www.getusout.org/images/guolink.gif";> / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
And Christ came to fulfill the OT law and offer a higher law. (IOW, use the term "Bible" less categorically and I think you'll see a stark contrast between OT and NT ideas). Jon Spencer wrote: > John W. Redelfs wrote: > > Actually, the only time the Nephites went on a search and destroy mission, > > following the Gadiantons up into the mountains, they were soundly defeated > > and had to withdraw. The Book of Mormon is the story of national DEFENSE, > > not offense. --JWR > > Your offense is my defense. > > And in the Bible, also God's word, there were many offensive defenses put > up. > > Jon > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland "The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark." --Michelangelo Buonarroti Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
RE: [ZION] Hindsight
After careful consideration, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >Larry Jackson wrote: > > It was a clear day in New York last year, too. > >When *Saudis* attacked it. > >So bomb Riyadh, Dammam, Dhahran, Taif, Jiddah, >Mecca or Medina. > >___ > >Why? That's not where the source of the problem is. And Saddam is? What makes you think he is behind the attack on 9-11? Actually, if you trace the money and arms back another notch, I think you will find that Russia and China are heavily promoting terrorism, using these Saudis, Iraqis, Afghanis, etc. to hide their meddling. Maybe we should just cut to the chase and attack China, do you think? John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === "It may be, for instance, that nothing except the power of faith and the authority of the priesthood can save individuals and congregations from the atomic holocausts that surely shall be." --Bruce R. McConkie === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
John W. Redelfs wrote: > Actually, the only time the Nephites went on a search and destroy mission, > following the Gadiantons up into the mountains, they were soundly defeated > and had to withdraw. The Book of Mormon is the story of national DEFENSE, > not offense. --JWR Your offense is my defense. And in the Bible, also God's word, there were many offensive defenses put up. Jon / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
"John W. Redelfs" wrote: > After careful consideration, Jon Spencer wrote: > >Have anyone in mind? Would you care to share the fruits of your > >investigations? Or were you just speaking generally about persons unknown? > > How about the heads of state in Libya, Syria, Cuba, and North Korea, just > to start the list? How about Putin? Is he a good friend of ours, > then? He is as big a gangster as any that preceded him in the > office. Russia has never been ruled except by murderers and thugs. > Interesting that you should mention this. Someone else mentioned Chechnya (to give it its normative English spelling). The reason Putin at least initially agreed with Bush wrt "the war on terrorism" was because there was an implicit bargain. Putin says Bush can bomb Iraq if Putin can bomb Chechnya and the neighbouring Pankisi Gorge in Georgia. > > Anyway, the argument is starting to bore me. The world is full of Bad > Guys, and we can't kill them all. So the vendetta against Hussein is > hypocritical. Bush has some secret reason for wanting to attack Iraq. And > I refuse to be manipulated by Bush and the media. Our military should be > used here at home for defending our own shores and borders, period. > > John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland "The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark." --Michelangelo Buonarroti Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
>John W. Redelfs wrote: > Sadam doesn't have an ideology. If he does, it is "I'm boss, and I'll > crush anyone who tries to tear down my power." Quite a few world leaders > seem to share this ideology, even some in our own country. >>Jon >>Have anyone in mind? Would you care to share the fruits of your >>investigations? Or were you just speaking generally about persons unknown? I was kind of wondering about this too, Jon. We have free elections in this country and I don't hear about opposing candidates being murdered or "crushed". In this country the loosing party always steps down peaceably and the business of running the government continues in different hands. Even former President Bush stepped down so the slimy worm Bill Clinton could muck up the white house chair. (Gee--that sounded bad but I'm going to post this anyways) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
No? Who financed the al-Qaeda. It wasn't Iraq. It was Saudi Arabians, using Pakistan as a training base, and Afghanistan as a base of operations. Sure Iraq probably had a hand in it -- probably every ME country except Israel and Jordan did in one way or another. What I don't understand is this obsession with Iraq. So I will ask yet again: why Iraq specifically and not Pakistan? Pakistan is a far greater threat. In any case, my logic was a caricature of the logic that if Iraqis had something to do with WTC, then bomb Baghdad. I was saying Saudis had more to do with it, so why not bomb Saudi cities? [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Marc Schindler: > > Larry Jackson wrote: > > It was a clear day in New York last year, too. > > When *Saudis* attacked it. > > So bomb Riyadh, Dammam, Dhahran, Taif, Jiddah, > Mecca or Medina. > > ___ > > Why? That's not where the source of the problem is. > > Larry Jackson > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. > > / > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland "The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark." --Michelangelo Buonarroti Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
After careful consideration, Jon Spencer wrote: >Have anyone in mind? Would you care to share the fruits of your >investigations? Or were you just speaking generally about persons unknown? How about the heads of state in Libya, Syria, Cuba, and North Korea, just to start the list? How about Putin? Is he a good friend of ours, then? He is as big a gangster as any that preceded him in the office. Russia has never been ruled except by murderers and thugs. Anyway, the argument is starting to bore me. The world is full of Bad Guys, and we can't kill them all. So the vendetta against Hussein is hypocritical. Bush has some secret reason for wanting to attack Iraq. And I refuse to be manipulated by Bush and the media. Our military should be used here at home for defending our own shores and borders, period. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === "The gospel, the kingdom of God, can prosper only in an atmosphere of freedom." --Ezra Taft Benson === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
After careful consideration, Jon Spencer wrote: >However, as I pointed out in another post, they were constantly performing >search and destroy missions against the terrorists - er - the Gadiantons. >Saddam may occupy a vaulted position in a country, but he is a Gadianton, >and we are not attacking Iraq, but rather we are performing a S&D on Saddam >and his buddies. Actually, the only time the Nephites went on a search and destroy mission, following the Gadiantons up into the mountains, they were soundly defeated and had to withdraw. The Book of Mormon is the story of national DEFENSE, not offense. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
