Re: [PSES] EMC test equipment museum

[Ken Wyatt]

That would be Ken Javor (ken.ja...@emccompliance.com 
<mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com>), copied on this.

Ken

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> On May 17, 2022, at 5:08 PM, David Garnier  wrote:
> 
> Hello,
> 
> Sorry about the off topic subject, but thank you for the bandwidth.
> 
> I am interested in getting a hold of PSTC member(s) that run EMC test
> equipment museum.  I have a piece of TE you might be interested in, free.
> This piece of TE is from the estate well known microwave ham operator.
> 
> Please contact me off list.  wb9...@arrl.net
> 
> Dave Garnier - wb9own
> 
> -
> 
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
> 
> 
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
> 
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
> formats), large files, etc.
> 
> Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
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> unsubscribe)
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> 
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> Mike Cantwell 
> 
> For policy questions, send mail to:
> Jim Bacher:  
> David Heald: 


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[PSES] EMC test equipment museum

[David Garnier]

Hello,

Sorry about the off topic subject, but thank you for the bandwidth.

I am interested in getting a hold of PSTC member(s) that run EMC test
equipment museum.  I have a piece of TE you might be interested in, free.
This piece of TE is from the estate well known microwave ham operator.

Please contact me off list.  wb9...@arrl.net

Dave Garnier - wb9own

-

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discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


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Re: [PSES] Suitable Test equipment for Touch temperature Testing in accordance with EN 62368-1

[Philip Stevenson]

Dear Douglas thanks for this information on the IEC rules.

Therefore my summary of all the responses is that it is okay to IR Thermometers 
to determine Touch temperature hotspots but final measurements should be made 
using Thermocouples.

Thank you all that have replied.

Regards

Philip Stevenson

Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows

From: Douglas E Powell<mailto:doug...@gmail.com>
Sent: 23 September 2021 00:05
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PSES] Suitable Test equipment for Touch temperature Testing in 
accordance with EN 62368-1

Sorry all, it was pointed out the correct document is  IECEE OD-5012 v1.2

All the best, Doug



On Wed, Sep 22, 2021 at 4:38 PM Douglas E Powell 
mailto:doug...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Test labs are required to follow IEC rules about temperature measurements.  
While I.R> guns and FLIR cameras can be used for diagnostic purposes, I believe 
they all still want thermocouples for final measurement.  In addition, there 
are rules about the maximum wire gauge and preferences on using special limits 
of error wire.

See IECEE OD-2012 v1.2 for Laboratory procedure for preparation, attachment, 
extension and use of thermocouples.  Formerly OP-108.

https://www.iecee.org/documents/refdocs/

-Doug


Douglas E Powell
Laporte, Colorado USA
doug...@gmail.com<mailto:doug...@gmail.com>
http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01




CTL-OP 108 Use of Thermocouples

On Wed, Sep 22, 2021 at 10:57 AM Richard Nute 
mailto:ri...@ieee.org>> wrote:


Hi Phillip:

As far as I know, 62368-1 does not specify the method for measuring touch 
temperatures.  Be aware that certification houses usually measure touch (and 
all other) temperatures with a thermocouple.

Stay safe, and best regards,
Rich


From: Philip Stevenson mailto:pw...@hotmail.co.uk>>
Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2021 7:42 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: [PSES] Suitable Test equipment for Touch temperature Testing in 
accordance with EN 62368-1

Dear List Members

I am looking for advice of whether the use of an Infra Red (IR) Digital 
Thermometer is suitable for performing Touch temperature Testing in accordance 
with EN 62368-1. Provided that factors for the different surface materials are 
applied to the temperature measurements?

If you prefer to reply to me directly instead of vis the listing please do so 
at pw...@hotmail.co.uk<mailto:pw...@hotmail.co.uk>.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Regards

Philip Stevenson


-


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Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org<mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>
David Heald dhe...@gmail.com<mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>
-


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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
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David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>>


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All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchab

Re: [PSES] Suitable Test equipment for Touch temperature Testing in accordance with EN 62368-1

[Douglas E Powell]

Sorry all, it was pointed out the correct document is  IECEE OD-5012 v1.2

All the best, Doug



On Wed, Sep 22, 2021 at 4:38 PM Douglas E Powell  wrote:

> Test labs are required to follow IEC rules about
> temperature measurements.  While I.R> guns and FLIR cameras can be used for
> diagnostic purposes, I believe they all still want thermocouples for final
> measurement.  In addition, there are rules about the maximum wire gauge and
> preferences on using special limits of error wire.
>
> See IECEE OD-2012 v1.2 for Laboratory procedure for preparation,
> attachment, extension and use of thermocouples.  Formerly OP-108.
>
> https://www.iecee.org/documents/refdocs/
>
> -Doug
>
>
> Douglas E Powell
> Laporte, Colorado USA
> doug...@gmail.com
> http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01
>
>
>
>
> CTL-OP 108 Use of Thermocouples
>
> On Wed, Sep 22, 2021 at 10:57 AM Richard Nute  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Phillip:
>>
>>
>> As far as I know, 62368-1 does not specify the method for measuring touch
>> temperatures.  Be aware that certification houses usually measure touch
>> (and all other) temperatures with a thermocouple.
>>
>>
>>
>> Stay safe, and best regards,
>>
>> Rich
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Philip Stevenson 
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 22, 2021 7:42 AM
>> *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
>> *Subject:* [PSES] Suitable Test equipment for Touch temperature Testing
>> in accordance with EN 62368-1
>>
>>
>>
>> Dear List Members
>>
>>
>>
>> I am looking for advice of whether the use of an Infra Red (IR) Digital
>> Thermometer is suitable for performing Touch temperature Testing in
>> accordance with EN 62368-1. Provided that factors for the different surface
>> materials are applied to the temperature measurements?
>>
>>
>>
>> If you prefer to reply to me directly instead of vis the listing please
>> do so at pw...@hotmail.co.uk.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks in advance for your help.
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards
>>
>>
>>
>> Philip Stevenson
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -
>> 
>>
>> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
>> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
>> emc-p...@ieee.org
>>
>> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
>> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
>>
>> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site
>> at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
>> well-used formats), large files, etc.
>>
>> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
>> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to
>> unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html>
>> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
>>
>> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
>> Scott Douglas sdoug...@ieee.org
>> Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org
>>
>> For policy questions, send mail to:
>> Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org
>> David Heald dhe...@gmail.com
>>
>

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] Suitable Test equipment for Touch temperature Testing in accordance with EN 62368-1

[Douglas E Powell]

Test labs are required to follow IEC rules about temperature measurements.
While I.R> guns and FLIR cameras can be used for diagnostic purposes, I
believe they all still want thermocouples for final measurement.  In
addition, there are rules about the maximum wire gauge and preferences on
using special limits of error wire.

See IECEE OD-2012 v1.2 for Laboratory procedure for preparation,
attachment, extension and use of thermocouples.  Formerly OP-108.

https://www.iecee.org/documents/refdocs/

-Doug


Douglas E Powell
Laporte, Colorado USA
doug...@gmail.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01




CTL-OP 108 Use of Thermocouples

On Wed, Sep 22, 2021 at 10:57 AM Richard Nute  wrote:

>
>
>
>
> Hi Phillip:
>
>
> As far as I know, 62368-1 does not specify the method for measuring touch
> temperatures.  Be aware that certification houses usually measure touch
> (and all other) temperatures with a thermocouple.
>
>
>
> Stay safe, and best regards,
>
> Rich
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Philip Stevenson 
> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 22, 2021 7:42 AM
> *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> *Subject:* [PSES] Suitable Test equipment for Touch temperature Testing
> in accordance with EN 62368-1
>
>
>
> Dear List Members
>
>
>
> I am looking for advice of whether the use of an Infra Red (IR) Digital
> Thermometer is suitable for performing Touch temperature Testing in
> accordance with EN 62368-1. Provided that factors for the different surface
> materials are applied to the temperature measurements?
>
>
>
> If you prefer to reply to me directly instead of vis the listing please do
> so at pw...@hotmail.co.uk.
>
>
>
> Thanks in advance for your help.
>
>
>
> Regards
>
>
>
> Philip Stevenson
>
>
>
>
> -
> 
>
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
> emc-p...@ieee.org
>
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
>
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
> well-used formats), large files, etc.
>
> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to
> unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html>
> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
>
> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
> Scott Douglas sdoug...@ieee.org
> Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org
>
> For policy questions, send mail to:
> Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org
> David Heald dhe...@gmail.com
>

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
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For help, send mail to the list administrators:
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For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] Suitable Test equipment for Touch temperature Testing in accordance with EN 62368-1

[Philip Stevenson]

Thanks Ted for your comprehensive reply. As I said in my earlier replies if the 
IR measured touch temperatures are near the test limits then thermocouples 
should be used to provide a more accurate measurement.

Regards

Philip Sevenson

Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows

From: Ted Eckert<mailto:ted.eck...@microsoft.com>
Sent: 22 September 2021 18:27
To: Philip Stevenson<mailto:pw...@hotmail.co.uk>; 
EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] Suitable Test equipment for Touch 
temperature Testing in accordance with EN 62368-1

Hi Philip,

I would like to see progress towards the acceptance of infrared thermography 
for certification. However, I can see some potential issues.

  *   I haven’t seen software for many IR cameras that does good data logging. 
I work on some products that have cyclical temperature changes. There are 
situations where I need to see a graph of touch temperature over time before I 
can make an assessment, particularly when I’m just trying to determine if 
temperatures have stabilized.
  *   I don’t know how well IR thermography will work when there are different 
materials. I have a product that has metal, plastic, fabric and glass in close 
proximity. I believe that the variety of materials might increase the 
uncertainty of measurement for an IR camera. This isn’t an issue if taken into 
account, but it might be a challenge where touch temperatures are close to the 
limit.
  *   It’s becoming more common to find IR camera calibration services, but 
“more common” doesn’t mean cheap or easy.

I think the technology has reached a point where IR cameras could be used for 
testing, but I would want to see internationally accepted procedures before I 
would consider it. I’m sure that there are experts in the field who could help. 
I use IR cameras to find hot spots for my testing, and they have been 
invaluable, particularly where the hottest points change depending on the mode 
of operation.

Ted Eckert
The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my 
employer.

From: Philip Stevenson 
Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2021 10:02 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] Suitable Test equipment for Touch temperature 
Testing in accordance with EN 62368-1

Thank Rich for your reply. That is my view as well. I use thermocouples for 
temperature rise measurements.

Regards

Philip Stevenson

Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows

From: Richard Nute<mailto:ri...@ieee.org>
Sent: 22 September 2021 17:57
To: 'Philip Stevenson'<mailto:pw...@hotmail.co.uk>; 
EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: RE: [PSES] Suitable Test equipment for Touch temperature Testing in 
accordance with EN 62368-1



Hi Phillip:

As far as I know, 62368-1 does not specify the method for measuring touch 
temperatures.  Be aware that certification houses usually measure touch (and 
all other) temperatures with a thermocouple.

Stay safe, and best regards,
Rich


From: Philip Stevenson mailto:pw...@hotmail.co.uk>>
Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2021 7:42 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: [PSES] Suitable Test equipment for Touch temperature Testing in 
accordance with EN 62368-1

Dear List Members

I am looking for advice of whether the use of an Infra Red (IR) Digital 
Thermometer is suitable for performing Touch temperature Testing in accordance 
with EN 62368-1. Provided that factors for the different surface materials are 
applied to the temperature measurements?

If you prefer to reply to me directly instead of vis the listing please do so 
at pw...@hotmail.co.uk<mailto:pw...@hotmail.co.uk>.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Regards

Philip Stevenson



-


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discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
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Re: [PSES] Suitable Test equipment for Touch temperature Testing in accordance with EN 62368-1

[Philip Stevenson]

Thanks Brian C. For your input. It is good to get different perspectives on 
this type of testing.

Regards

Philip Stevenson

Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows

From: Brian Ceresney<mailto:bceres...@delta-q.com>
Sent: 22 September 2021 18:10
To: Philip Stevenson<mailto:pw...@hotmail.co.uk>; 
EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: RE: [PSES] Suitable Test equipment for Touch temperature Testing in 
accordance with EN 62368-1

Hello Regulatory Experts,
We do use an IR camera as an initial indicator, to identify the hottest areas 
for further investigation of the hottest areas using thermocouples.
Our products typically have cast metal enclosures, so we coat enclosure areas 
with a flat painted finish to obtain reasonably accurate indication. (we find 
that semi-reflective, or black surfaces can “muddy the waters” )
I hope this helps.

Best Regards,
Brian C.


[Description: Description: Description: delta-q formatted 
gif.png]<http://www.delta-q.com/>Brian Ceresney
Regulatory Lead
Delta-Q Technologies Corp.
3755 Willingdon Avenue, Burnaby,
B.C. Canada. V5G 3H3

Phone: +1.604.566.8827
E-mail: bceres...@delta-q.com<mailto:bceres...@delta-q.com>
Website: www.delta-q.com<http://www.delta-q.com/>

Connect with Delta-Q Technologies Corp
[Description: Description: 
cid:image004.png@01CE4CBE.35B2CA90]<http://www.linkedin.com/company/delta-q-technologies>
 [Description: Description: cid:image005.png@01CE4CBE.35B2CA90] 
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From: Philip Stevenson 
Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2021 10:02 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Suitable Test equipment for Touch temperature Testing in 
accordance with EN 62368-1

CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click 
links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content 
is safe.

Thank Rich for your reply. That is my view as well. I use thermocouples for 
temperature rise measurements.

Regards

Philip Stevenson

Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows

From: Richard Nute<mailto:ri...@ieee.org>
Sent: 22 September 2021 17:57
To: 'Philip Stevenson'<mailto:pw...@hotmail.co.uk>; 
EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: RE: [PSES] Suitable Test equipment for Touch temperature Testing in 
accordance with EN 62368-1



Hi Phillip:

As far as I know, 62368-1 does not specify the method for measuring touch 
temperatures.  Be aware that certification houses usually measure touch (and 
all other) temperatures with a thermocouple.

Stay safe, and best regards,
Rich


From: Philip Stevenson mailto:pw...@hotmail.co.uk>>
Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2021 7:42 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: [PSES] Suitable Test equipment for Touch temperature Testing in 
accordance with EN 62368-1

Dear List Members

I am looking for advice of whether the use of an Infra Red (IR) Digital 
Thermometer is suitable for performing Touch temperature Testing in accordance 
with EN 62368-1. Provided that factors for the different surface materials are 
applied to the temperature measurements?

If you prefer to reply to me directly instead of vis the listing please do so 
at pw...@hotmail.co.uk<mailto:pw...@hotmail.co.uk>.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Regards

Philip Stevenson



-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>>

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http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

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List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.ht

Re: [PSES] [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] Suitable Test equipment for Touch temperature Testing in accordance with EN 62368-1

[Ted Eckert]

Hi Philip,

I would like to see progress towards the acceptance of infrared thermography 
for certification. However, I can see some potential issues.

  *   I haven't seen software for many IR cameras that does good data logging. 
I work on some products that have cyclical temperature changes. There are 
situations where I need to see a graph of touch temperature over time before I 
can make an assessment, particularly when I'm just trying to determine if 
temperatures have stabilized.
  *   I don't know how well IR thermography will work when there are different 
materials. I have a product that has metal, plastic, fabric and glass in close 
proximity. I believe that the variety of materials might increase the 
uncertainty of measurement for an IR camera. This isn't an issue if taken into 
account, but it might be a challenge where touch temperatures are close to the 
limit.
  *   It's becoming more common to find IR camera calibration services, but 
"more common" doesn't mean cheap or easy.

I think the technology has reached a point where IR cameras could be used for 
testing, but I would want to see internationally accepted procedures before I 
would consider it. I'm sure that there are experts in the field who could help. 
I use IR cameras to find hot spots for my testing, and they have been 
invaluable, particularly where the hottest points change depending on the mode 
of operation.

Ted Eckert
The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my 
employer.

From: Philip Stevenson 
Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2021 10:02 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] Suitable Test equipment for Touch temperature 
Testing in accordance with EN 62368-1

Thank Rich for your reply. That is my view as well. I use thermocouples for 
temperature rise measurements.

Regards

Philip Stevenson

Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows

From: Richard Nute<mailto:ri...@ieee.org>
Sent: 22 September 2021 17:57
To: 'Philip Stevenson'<mailto:pw...@hotmail.co.uk>; 
EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: RE: [PSES] Suitable Test equipment for Touch temperature Testing in 
accordance with EN 62368-1



Hi Phillip:

As far as I know, 62368-1 does not specify the method for measuring touch 
temperatures.  Be aware that certification houses usually measure touch (and 
all other) temperatures with a thermocouple.

Stay safe, and best regards,
Rich


From: Philip Stevenson mailto:pw...@hotmail.co.uk>>
Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2021 7:42 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: [PSES] Suitable Test equipment for Touch temperature Testing in 
accordance with EN 62368-1

Dear List Members

I am looking for advice of whether the use of an Infra Red (IR) Digital 
Thermometer is suitable for performing Touch temperature Testing in accordance 
with EN 62368-1. Provided that factors for the different surface materials are 
applied to the temperature measurements?

If you prefer to reply to me directly instead of vis the listing please do so 
at pw...@hotmail.co.uk<mailto:pw...@hotmail.co.uk>.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Regards

Philip Stevenson



-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>>

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2Femc-pstc.html=04%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C45cecf94beab4865931e08d97deac6b0%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C0%7C0%7C637679270106628527%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000=nb9CkoRt6Oo13wV1V4rWq3JhC0iz0Yi2bld9cD3mEYI%3D=0>

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fproduct-compliance.oc.ieee.org%2F=04%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C45cecf94beab4865931e08d97deac6b0%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C0%7C0%7C637679270106638521%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000=bzH07fMrbqImLweF%2Fmg4kHzA53jXC52S9QAy%2BEfxayg%3D=0>
 can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc.

Website: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2F=04%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C45cecf94beab4865931e08d97deac6b0%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C0%7C0%7C637679270106648510%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000=yhIp8qClLfpoZG%2FMcluIhibE9

Re: [PSES] Suitable Test equipment for Touch temperature Testing in accordance with EN 62368-1

[Brian Ceresney]

Hello Regulatory Experts,
We do use an IR camera as an initial indicator, to identify the hottest areas 
for further investigation of the hottest areas using thermocouples.
Our products typically have cast metal enclosures, so we coat enclosure areas 
with a flat painted finish to obtain reasonably accurate indication. (we find 
that semi-reflective, or black surfaces can "muddy the waters" )
I hope this helps.

Best Regards,
Brian C.


[Description: Description: Description: delta-q formatted 
gif.png]<http://www.delta-q.com/>Brian Ceresney
Regulatory Lead
Delta-Q Technologies Corp.
3755 Willingdon Avenue, Burnaby,
B.C. Canada. V5G 3H3

Phone: +1.604.566.8827
E-mail: bceres...@delta-q.com<mailto:bceres...@delta-q.com>
Website: www.delta-q.com<http://www.delta-q.com/>

Connect with Delta-Q Technologies Corp
[Description: Description: 
cid:image004.png@01CE4CBE.35B2CA90]<http://www.linkedin.com/company/delta-q-technologies>
 [Description: Description: cid:image005.png@01CE4CBE.35B2CA90] 
<https://twitter.com/DeltaQTech/>  [Description: Description: 
cid:image006.png@01CE4CBE.35B2CA90] 
<http://www.youtube.com/user/DeltaQTechnologies>  [Description: Description: 
cid:image008.png@01CE4CBE.35B2CA90] 
<https://www.facebook.com/pages/Delta-Q-Technologies/362323467183918?fref=ts>  
[Description: Description: cid:image009.png@01CE4CBE.35B2CA90] 


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From: Philip Stevenson 
Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2021 10:02 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Suitable Test equipment for Touch temperature Testing in 
accordance with EN 62368-1

CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click 
links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content 
is safe.

Thank Rich for your reply. That is my view as well. I use thermocouples for 
temperature rise measurements.

Regards

Philip Stevenson

Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows

From: Richard Nute<mailto:ri...@ieee.org>
Sent: 22 September 2021 17:57
To: 'Philip Stevenson'<mailto:pw...@hotmail.co.uk>; 
EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: RE: [PSES] Suitable Test equipment for Touch temperature Testing in 
accordance with EN 62368-1



Hi Phillip:

As far as I know, 62368-1 does not specify the method for measuring touch 
temperatures.  Be aware that certification houses usually measure touch (and 
all other) temperatures with a thermocouple.

Stay safe, and best regards,
Rich


From: Philip Stevenson mailto:pw...@hotmail.co.uk>>
Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2021 7:42 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: [PSES] Suitable Test equipment for Touch temperature Testing in 
accordance with EN 62368-1

Dear List Members

I am looking for advice of whether the use of an Infra Red (IR) Digital 
Thermometer is suitable for performing Touch temperature Testing in accordance 
with EN 62368-1. Provided that factors for the different surface materials are 
applied to the temperature measurements?

If you prefer to reply to me directly instead of vis the listing please do so 
at pw...@hotmail.co.uk<mailto:pw...@hotmail.co.uk>.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Regards

Philip Stevenson



-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>>

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to 
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List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
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Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>>

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>>
David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>>

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All 

Re: [PSES] Suitable Test equipment for Touch temperature Testing in accordance with EN 62368-1

[Philip Stevenson]

Thank Rich for your reply. That is my view as well. I use thermocouples for 
temperature rise measurements.

Regards

Philip Stevenson

Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows

From: Richard Nute<mailto:ri...@ieee.org>
Sent: 22 September 2021 17:57
To: 'Philip Stevenson'<mailto:pw...@hotmail.co.uk>; 
EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: RE: [PSES] Suitable Test equipment for Touch temperature Testing in 
accordance with EN 62368-1



Hi Phillip:

As far as I know, 62368-1 does not specify the method for measuring touch 
temperatures.  Be aware that certification houses usually measure touch (and 
all other) temperatures with a thermocouple.

Stay safe, and best regards,
Rich


From: Philip Stevenson 
Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2021 7:42 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Suitable Test equipment for Touch temperature Testing in 
accordance with EN 62368-1

Dear List Members

I am looking for advice of whether the use of an Infra Red (IR) Digital 
Thermometer is suitable for performing Touch temperature Testing in accordance 
with EN 62368-1. Provided that factors for the different surface materials are 
applied to the temperature measurements?

If you prefer to reply to me directly instead of vis the listing please do so 
at pw...@hotmail.co.uk<mailto:pw...@hotmail.co.uk>.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Regards

Philip Stevenson




-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] Suitable Test equipment for Touch temperature Testing in accordance with EN 62368-1

[Richard Nute]

 

 

Hi Phillip:


As far as I know, 62368-1 does not specify the method for measuring touch
temperatures.  Be aware that certification houses usually measure touch (and
all other) temperatures with a thermocouple.  

 

Stay safe, and best regards,

Rich

 

 

From: Philip Stevenson  
Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2021 7:42 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Suitable Test equipment for Touch temperature Testing in
accordance with EN 62368-1

 

Dear List Members

 

I am looking for advice of whether the use of an Infra Red (IR) Digital
Thermometer is suitable for performing Touch temperature Testing in
accordance with EN 62368-1. Provided that factors for the different surface
materials are applied to the temperature measurements?

 

If you prefer to reply to me directly instead of vis the listing please do
so at  <mailto:pw...@hotmail.co.uk> pw...@hotmail.co.uk. 

 

Thanks in advance for your help.

 

Regards

 

Philip Stevenson

 

 


-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

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http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
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Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

[PSES] Suitable Test equipment for Touch temperature Testing in accordance with EN 62368-1

[Philip Stevenson]

Dear List Members

I am looking for advice of whether the use of an Infra Red (IR) Digital 
Thermometer is suitable for performing Touch temperature Testing in accordance 
with EN 62368-1. Provided that factors for the different surface materials are 
applied to the temperature measurements?

If you prefer to reply to me directly instead of vis the listing please do so 
at pw...@hotmail.co.uk.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Regards

Philip Stevenson





Sent from Mail for Windows


-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
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Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] In-house Conducted emission test equipment

[Grasso, Charles [Outlook]]

So you asked “Any suggestion on such low cost test eqiupment? LISN and spectrum 
analyzer …”

Take a look at RAMayes  https://www dot ramayes dot com/



From: Ken Wyatt 
Sent: Friday, September 4, 2020 10:13 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] In-house Conducted emission test equipment


 This message originated outside of DISH and was sent by: 
owner-emc-p...@listserv.ieee.org<mailto:owner-emc-p...@listserv.ieee.org>
Amund, Com-Power has a three phase LISN, model number LI-3P-116, that would 
work for this application. They also sell a rebranded Siglent spectrum 
analyzer, model SPA-900TG, they recommend.

Personally, I’ve been pretty happy with the Tektronix RSA306B USB-controlled 
(real time) spectrum analyzer, with their EMCVu software. The software is 
designed specifically for pre-compliance testing and can do RE or CE with 
dozens of EMC standards and limits built-in. It will run a peak scan within 
seconds and then for those peaks over the limit, you just click on each and it 
will perform a quasi-peak scan pretty quickly. You’d need to enter the 
frequency response calibration of the LISN into the software, so it could 
calculate the limit lines accurately.

I don’t know pricing for any of this, but typically both companies products are 
pretty affordable.

Disclosure: I’m not financially connected with either company, just a satisfied 
user.

Cheers, Ken

___

I'm here to help you succeed! Feel free to call or email with any questions 
related to EMC or EMI troubleshooting - at no obligation. I'm always happy to 
help!

Kenneth Wyatt
Wyatt Technical Services LLC
56 Aspen Dr.
Woodland Park, CO 80863

Phone: (719) 310-5418

Web Site<http://www.emc-seminars.com> | Blog<https://design-4-emc.com>
The EMC Blog (EDN)<https://www.edn.com/electronics-blogs/4376432/The-EMC-Blog>
Subscribe to Newsletter<http://www.emc-seminars.com/Newsletter/Newsletter.html>
Connect with me on LinkedIn<https://www.linkedin.com/in/kennethwyatt/>


On Sep 4, 2020, at 9:38 AM, Amund Jobb 
mailto:am...@westin-emission.no>> wrote:

400AC, Ken.
3-phase. L3, L2, L1, N, PE

Ebay may be an alternate, but brand new is also an option.
Only peak might be good enough, but QP and Avg are options aswell.

BR
Amund
Sendt fra min iPhone

4. sep. 2020 kl. 17:17 skrev Ken Wyatt 
mailto:k...@emc-seminars.com>>:
Is that 400V AC or DC? That will make a difference in the LISN design.

Ken

___

I'm here to help you succeed! Feel free to call or email with any questions 
related to EMC or EMI troubleshooting - at no obligation. I'm always happy to 
help!

Kenneth Wyatt
Wyatt Technical Services LLC
56 Aspen Dr.
Woodland Park, CO 80863

Phone: (719) 310-5418

Web Site<http://www.emc-seminars.com/> | Blog<https://design-4-emc.com/>
The EMC Blog (EDN)<https://www.edn.com/electronics-blogs/4376432/The-EMC-Blog>
Subscribe to Newsletter<http://www.emc-seminars.com/Newsletter/Newsletter.html>
Connect with me on LinkedIn<https://www.linkedin.com/in/kennethwyatt/>


On Sep 3, 2020, at 11:56 AM, Amund Westin 
mailto:am...@westin-emission.no>> wrote:

Need to establish a pre-qual test setup for Conducted emission testing in-house.
EUT will be 400V / 16A.
Any suggestion on such low cost test eqiupment? LISN and spectrum analyzer ….


Best regards Amund

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>>

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org>>
Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>>

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>>
David Heald: mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>>

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>>
All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.
Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html

Re: [PSES] In-house Conducted emission test equipment

[Ken Wyatt]

Amund, Com-Power has a three phase LISN, model number LI-3P-116, that would 
work for this application. They also sell a rebranded Siglent spectrum 
analyzer, model SPA-900TG, they recommend.

Personally, I’ve been pretty happy with the Tektronix RSA306B USB-controlled 
(real time) spectrum analyzer, with their EMCVu software. The software is 
designed specifically for pre-compliance testing and can do RE or CE with 
dozens of EMC standards and limits built-in. It will run a peak scan within 
seconds and then for those peaks over the limit, you just click on each and it 
will perform a quasi-peak scan pretty quickly. You’d need to enter the 
frequency response calibration of the LISN into the software, so it could 
calculate the limit lines accurately.

I don’t know pricing for any of this, but typically both companies products are 
pretty affordable.

Disclosure: I’m not financially connected with either company, just a satisfied 
user.

Cheers, Ken

___

I'm here to help you succeed! Feel free to call or email with any questions 
related to EMC or EMI troubleshooting - at no obligation. I'm always happy to 
help!

Kenneth Wyatt
Wyatt Technical Services LLC
56 Aspen Dr.
Woodland Park, CO 80863

Phone: (719) 310-5418

Web Site  | Blog 
The EMC Blog (EDN) 
Subscribe to Newsletter 
Connect with me on LinkedIn 

> On Sep 4, 2020, at 9:38 AM, Amund Jobb  wrote:
> 
> 400AC, Ken. 
> 3-phase. L3, L2, L1, N, PE
> 
> Ebay may be an alternate, but brand new is also an option.
> Only peak might be good enough, but QP and Avg are options aswell.
> 
> BR
> Amund
> 
> Sendt fra min iPhone
> 
> 4. sep. 2020 kl. 17:17 skrev Ken Wyatt  >:
> 
>> Is that 400V AC or DC? That will make a difference in the LISN design.
>> 
>> Ken
>> 
>> ___
>> 
>> I'm here to help you succeed! Feel free to call or email with any questions 
>> related to EMC or EMI troubleshooting - at no obligation. I'm always happy 
>> to help!
>> 
>> Kenneth Wyatt
>> Wyatt Technical Services LLC
>> 56 Aspen Dr.
>> Woodland Park, CO 80863
>> 
>> Phone: (719) 310-5418
>> 
>> Web Site  | Blog 
>> The EMC Blog (EDN) 
>> 
>> Subscribe to Newsletter 
>> 
>> Connect with me on LinkedIn 
>> 
>>> On Sep 3, 2020, at 11:56 AM, Amund Westin >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> Need to establish a pre-qual test setup for Conducted emission testing 
>>> in-house.
>>> EUT will be 400V / 16A. 
>>> Any suggestion on such low cost test eqiupment? LISN and spectrum analyzer 
>>> ….
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Best regards Amund   
>>> 
>>> -
>>> 
>>> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
>>> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
>>> mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>>
>>> 
>>> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
>>> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
>>> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ 
>>>  can be used for graphics (in 
>>> well-used formats), large files, etc.
>>> 
>>> Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/ 
>>> Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html 
>>>  (including how to unsubscribe)
>>> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html 
>>> 
>>> 
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>>> 
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>> 
>> -
>> 
>> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
>> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
>> mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>>
>> 
>> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
>> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html 
>> 
>> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
>> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ 
>>  can be used for graphics (in 
>> well-used formats), large files, etc.
>> 
>> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ 
>> 

Re: [PSES] In-house Conducted emission test equipment

[Amund Jobb]

400AC, Ken. 
3-phase. L3, L2, L1, N, PE

Ebay may be an alternate, but brand new is also an option.
Only peak might be good enough, but QP and Avg are options aswell.

BR
Amund

Sendt fra min iPhone

> 4. sep. 2020 kl. 17:17 skrev Ken Wyatt :
> 
> Is that 400V AC or DC? That will make a difference in the LISN design.
> 
> Ken
> 
> ___
> 
> I'm here to help you succeed! Feel free to call or email with any questions 
> related to EMC or EMI troubleshooting - at no obligation. I'm always happy to 
> help!
> 
> Kenneth Wyatt
> Wyatt Technical Services LLC
> 56 Aspen Dr.
> Woodland Park, CO 80863
> 
> Phone: (719) 310-5418
> 
> Web Site | Blog
> The EMC Blog (EDN)
> Subscribe to Newsletter
> Connect with me on LinkedIn
> 
>> On Sep 3, 2020, at 11:56 AM, Amund Westin  wrote:
>> 
>> Need to establish a pre-qual test setup for Conducted emission testing 
>> in-house.
>> EUT will be 400V / 16A. 
>> Any suggestion on such low cost test eqiupment? LISN and spectrum analyzer ….
>> 
>> 
>> Best regards Amund   
>> 
>> -
>> 
>> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
>> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
>> 
>> 
>> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
>> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
>> 
>> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
>> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in 
>> well-used formats), large files, etc.
>> 
>> Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
>> Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to 
>> unsubscribe)
>> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
>> 
>> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
>> Scott Douglas 
>> Mike Cantwell 
>> 
>> For policy questions, send mail to:
>> Jim Bacher:  
>> David Heald: 
> 
> -
> 
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
> 
> 
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
> 
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
> formats), large files, etc.
> 
> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
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> unsubscribe)
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> 
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> David Heald 

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Re: [PSES] In-house Conducted emission test equipment

[Ken Wyatt]

Is that 400V AC or DC? That will make a difference in the LISN design.

Ken

___

I'm here to help you succeed! Feel free to call or email with any questions 
related to EMC or EMI troubleshooting - at no obligation. I'm always happy to 
help!

Kenneth Wyatt
Wyatt Technical Services LLC
56 Aspen Dr.
Woodland Park, CO 80863

Phone: (719) 310-5418

Web Site  | Blog 
The EMC Blog (EDN) 
Subscribe to Newsletter 
Connect with me on LinkedIn 

> On Sep 3, 2020, at 11:56 AM, Amund Westin  wrote:
> 
> Need to establish a pre-qual test setup for Conducted emission testing 
> in-house.
> EUT will be 400V / 16A. 
> Any suggestion on such low cost test eqiupment? LISN and spectrum analyzer ….
> 
> 
> Best regards Amund   
> 
> -
> 
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
> 
> 
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
> 
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
> formats), large files, etc.
> 
> Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
> Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to 
> unsubscribe)
> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
> 
> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
> Scott Douglas 
> Mike Cantwell 
> 
> For policy questions, send mail to:
> Jim Bacher:  
> David Heald: 


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Re: [PSES] In-house Conducted emission test equipment

[Charlie Blackham]

Amund

Another option is the Gauss TDEMI 30M
https://www.gauss-instruments.com/en/products/tdemi

Best regards
Charlie

Charlie Blackham
Sulis Consultants Ltd
Tel: +44 (0)7946 624317
Web: https://sulisconsultants.com/ 
Registered in England and Wales, number 05466247

-Original Message-
From: James Pawson (U3C)  
Sent: 04 September 2020 07:48
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] In-house Conducted emission test equipment

Hi Amund,

You might want to look at the Narda 9010F receivers 
https://www.narda-sts.it/eng/products/receivers/9010f/
I've heard good things about them and the scan speed with the FFT technology 
would be most valuable for pre-compliance!
They also make LISNs.

All the best
James



James Pawson
Unit 3 Compliance Ltd
EMC Testing / Design for EMC / Problem Solving / Pre Compliance / Consultancy / 
Environmental & Vibration

-Original Message-
From: Amund Westin 
Sent: 03 September 2020 18:56
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] In-house Conducted emission test equipment

Need to establish a pre-qual test setup for Conducted emission testing in-house.
EUT will be 400V / 16A. 
Any suggestion on such low cost test eqiupment? LISN and spectrum analyzer ….


Best regards Amund   

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
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Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
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-

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discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
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Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
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-

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All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
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Re: [PSES] In-house Conducted emission test equipment

[James Pawson (U3C)]

Hi Amund,

You might want to look at the Narda 9010F receivers
https://www.narda-sts.it/eng/products/receivers/9010f/
I've heard good things about them and the scan speed with the FFT technology 
would be most valuable for pre-compliance!
They also make LISNs.

All the best
James



James Pawson
Unit 3 Compliance Ltd
EMC Testing / Design for EMC / Problem Solving / Pre Compliance / Consultancy / 
Environmental & Vibration

-Original Message-
From: Amund Westin  
Sent: 03 September 2020 18:56
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] In-house Conducted emission test equipment

Need to establish a pre-qual test setup for Conducted emission testing in-house.
EUT will be 400V / 16A. 
Any suggestion on such low cost test eqiupment? LISN and spectrum analyzer ….


Best regards Amund   

-

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discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
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[PSES] In-house Conducted emission test equipment

[Amund Westin]

Need to establish a pre-qual test setup for Conducted emission testing in-house.
EUT will be 400V / 16A. 
Any suggestion on such low cost test eqiupment? LISN and spectrum analyzer ….


Best regards Amund   

-

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discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


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Re: [PSES] FCC Requirements for in-house test equipment

[Paasche, Dieter]

Hi Charles,

depends what it is (do you have a radio or not), but in general you could use 
this section. See if it applies to you.

§15.23   Home-built devices.
(a) Equipment authorization is not required for devices that are not marketed, 
are not constructed from a kit, and are built in quantities of five or less for 
personal use.
(b) It is recognized that the individual builder of home-built equipment may 
not possess the means to perform the measurements for determining compliance 
with the regulations. In this case, the builder is expected to employ good 
engineering practices to meet the specified technical standards to the greatest 
extent practicable. The provisions of §15.5 apply to this equipment.


Sincerely,

Dieter Paasche
Senior Product Developer, Electrical
CHRISTIE
809 Wellington Street North
Kitchener, ON N2G 4Y7
Phone: 519-744-8005 ext.7211
www.christiedigital.com<http://www.christiedigital.com/>

This e-mail message (including attachments, if any) is confidential.  Any 
unauthorized use, distribution or disclosure is prohibited.  If you have 
received this e-mail message in error, please notify the sender by reply e-mail 
or telephone and delete it and any attachments from your computer system and 
records.

From: Grasso, Charles [Outlook] 
Sent: viernes, 19 de junio de 2020 05:23 p. m.
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] FCC Requirements for in-house test equipment

Hello EMC Gurus!

We in development of an inhouse piece of test gear and the question is:
What (if any) are the FCC rules and procedure to cover said item.?
How does the FCC cover this type of scenario?

[Working From Home]
Charles Grasso
Dish Technologies
(c) 303-204-2974
(h) 303-317-5530
(e ) charles.gra...@dish.com<mailto:charles.gra...@dish.com>
(e2) chasgra...@gmail.com<mailto:chasgra...@gmail.com>

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[PSES] FCC Requirements for in-house test equipment

[Grasso, Charles [Outlook]]

Hello EMC Gurus!

We in development of an inhouse piece of test gear and the question is:
What (if any) are the FCC rules and procedure to cover said item.?
How does the FCC cover this type of scenario?

[Working From Home]
Charles Grasso
Dish Technologies
(c) 303-204-2974
(h) 303-317-5530
(e ) charles.gra...@dish.com
(e2) chasgra...@gmail.com


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Re: [PSES] Procedure to move heavy 19" rack test equipment into EMI Chambers

[Pete Perkins]

Richard,   Haven’t seen much response on this.  

 

   A couple of points from me tho.  

 

   IEC 60950 has had stability requirements for racks for years 
which is intended to include moving the rack.  They include a 10 deg tip test 
requirement which dictates how the rack is loaded – heavier equipment in the 
botton; is your ramp long enough to stay below 10 deg?  

 

   So when you push the rack up the incline why don’t you turn it 
around so that the steerable wheels are in the back to steer the unit to keep 
it on the ramp?  

 

:>) br,  Pete

 

Peter E Perkins, PE

Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant

PO Box 1067

Albany, ORe  97321-0413

 

503/452-1201

 

IEEE Life Fellow

IEEE PSES 2020 Distinguished Lecturer

 <mailto:p.perk...@ieee.org> p.perk...@ieee.org

 

Entropy ain’t what it used to be

 

From: Richard Jones  
Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2020 2:41 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Procedure to move heavy 19" rack test equipment into EMI 
Chambers

 

Hi

 

For those running EMI Labs was wondering what procedures you use to move Test 
Racks in and out of EMI Chambers,

We use custom made ramps, which we put over the door threshold, aligning the 
front wheels on the ramp, then pushing the unit up and over into the chamber.

 

Items which seem important:

1.  Wheel Size and base dimension
2.  Swivel wheels not aligned with ramp ( Most Test racks have swivel 
wheels fitted at the front)
3.  Communication between team members to move the rack
4.  Custom Alloy ramp made from  1/4" checker plate causing a lip where it 
touch's the floor
5.  Equipment with handles in rack placed near the top, (operator may try 
to use to move test rack)
6.  Poor center of gravity (equipment position for ergonomics)

Some of our 19" test racks are quite heavy, lightning generators at 400lbs and 
other test racks such as amplifiers up to 650lbs

These are commercial units and I believe met safety requirements when purchased.

 

My questions are:

 

What procedures/solutions do you have to move equipment and avoid a tipping 
situation?

 

>From a standard point of view Is there any direction on Wheel Size, Wheel 
>base, height weight and Ramp Inclination and run off which I could use to 
>support possible improvements?

 

Thanks

 

Rich

 

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[PSES] Procedure to move heavy 19" rack test equipment into EMI Chambers

[Richard Jones]

Hi

For those running EMI Labs was wondering what procedures you use to move
Test Racks in and out of EMI Chambers,
We use custom made ramps, which we put over the door threshold, aligning
the front wheels on the ramp, then pushing the unit up and over into the
chamber.

Items which seem important:

   1. Wheel Size and base dimension
   2. Swivel wheels not aligned with ramp ( Most Test racks have swivel
   wheels fitted at the front)
   3. Communication between team members to move the rack
   4. Custom Alloy ramp made from  1/4" checker plate causing a lip where
   it touch's the floor
   5. Equipment with handles in rack placed near the top, (operator may try
   to use to move test rack)
   6. Poor center of gravity (equipment position for ergonomics)

Some of our 19" test racks are quite heavy, lightning generators at 400lbs
and other test racks such as amplifiers up to 650lbs
These are commercial units and I believe met safety requirements when
purchased.

My questions are:

What procedures/solutions do you have to move equipment and avoid a
tipping situation?

>From a standard point of view Is there any direction on Wheel Size, Wheel
base, height weight and Ramp Inclination and run off which I could use to
support possible improvements?

Thanks

Rich

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Re: [PSES] safety test equipment

[John Allen]

Brian

 

Commiserations on yourself "no longer needed"  (really?) - but I hope/am
sure that you will soon find a more-realistic company with a rewarding
position J.

 

John E Allen

W. London, UK

 

PS: I can say, with relative certainty, that before retiring a few years
ago, I  had "been there, done that" a few more times than I rather care to
remember L.

-Original Message-
From: Brian O'Connell [mailto:oconne...@tamuracorp.com] 
Sent: 09 October 2018 18:58
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] safety test equipment

 

Employer is focusing on a smaller segment of the power industry. Myself and
test equipment no longer needed are being eliminated.

 

Following list of safety test equipment is free to good home. Your company
provides shipping. And you must agree to incorporate the various Klingon
rites of ascension into your corporate ISO9001 engineering processes.

 

ITB-01 500gm steel ball

SET - 50 sharp edge tester

TC-3 tape kit

UL Articulate Probe

EDD OC-20 comparator

EDD CC-23 gage set

 

Brian

 

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well-used formats), large files, etc.

 

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[PSES] safety test equipment

[Brian O'Connell]

Employer is focusing on a smaller segment of the power industry. Myself and 
test equipment no longer needed are being eliminated.

Following list of safety test equipment is free to good home. Your company 
provides shipping. And you must agree to incorporate the various Klingon rites 
of ascension into your corporate ISO9001 engineering processes.

ITB-01 500gm steel ball
SET - 50 sharp edge tester
TC-3 tape kit
UL Articulate Probe
EDD OC-20 comparator
EDD CC-23 gage set

Brian

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Re: [PSES] Recommondations for Test Equipment

[Brian O'Connell]

Understand that you want to avoid "full blown", but Tektronix (nee Voltech) 
makes power analyzers that will probably out-last your lab. Otherwise, as you 
have the code-monkey on your back, not that difficult to do using a CT or shunt 
and 6.5 digit logger such as the Agilent 34970 and about 100 lines of Python. 
The big problem here is channel-to-channel latency, which would affect accuracy 
of power measurements, unless you are willing to integrate the rms over many 
cycles. Then there are the DIY solutions - recommend at least a decent Cortex 
M4 class micro (my preference is the NXP MK20 series); and there are many 
canned design solutions for this stuff, where you would 'just' add your analog 
front-end.

If you have some of the later Tektronix or Agilent DSOs or MSOs, get a power or 
math module, then all you do is suck the data out of the scope (you will still 
need a CT or shunt).

If not Ethernet, then use GPIB. RS-232 is ok if differential pair.

Labview is a poor solution where long-term stability and maintenance is 
important.

If resultant data part of your formal TRF, be mindful that your solution can 
support the ISO17025 traceability stuff.

Brian


From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2018 8:25 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Recommondations for Test Equipment

Please send replies directly to me if this is a group violation.

In our Safety lab, we do input current tests. We currently use two handheld 
meters; one showing Voltage and the other Current via a current clamp.

We want to replace these two meters with a single piece of test equipment that 
will provide live data measurements via a PC Interface.   It would also be nice 
if it could provide power, power factor, and other such measurements.

We would like it to have a hardy interface, such as Ethernet or old fashion 
serial port (no USB).  We take these measurements in our EMC Lab where USB has 
a hard time surviving.  

Labview compatible would be nice. Since we write our own code, we will have to 
have access to the command set.  

Any recommendations?  We don’t really need the features and expense of a full 
blown power analyzer. Does anyone make something like this?

Thanks,
The Other Brian

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Re: [PSES] Recommondations for Test Equipment

[Wiseman, Joshua]

Brian,

In the past I used Valhalla Scientific.  The older models didn’t have any 
communication though.  Not sure if they do now or not.

I’ve been using Newton’s 4th more recently, but I use the same instrument for 
Harmonics and Flicker so the price tag isn’t as bad.  This has Ethernet, serial 
and USB options.

Josh

From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2018 11:25 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Recommondations for Test Equipment

EXTERNAL SENDER: Verify links, attachments and sender before taking action


Please send replies directly to me if this is a group violation.

In our Safety lab, we do input current tests. We currently use two handheld 
meters; one showing Voltage and the other Current via a current clamp.

We want to replace these two meters with a single piece of test equipment that 
will provide live data measurements via a PC Interface.   It would also be nice 
if it could provide power, power factor, and other such measurements.

We would like it to have a hardy interface, such as Ethernet or old fashion 
serial port (no USB).  We take these measurements in our EMC Lab where USB has 
a hard time surviving.

Labview compatible would be nice. Since we write our own code, we will have to 
have access to the command set.

Any recommendations?  We don’t really need the features and expense of a full 
blown power analyzer. Does anyone make something like this?

Thanks,
The Other Brian

LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential 
information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by 
mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you.
-


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[PSES] Recommondations for Test Equipment

[Kunde, Brian]

Please send replies directly to me if this is a group violation.

In our Safety lab, we do input current tests. We currently use two handheld 
meters; one showing Voltage and the other Current via a current clamp.

We want to replace these two meters with a single piece of test equipment that 
will provide live data measurements via a PC Interface.   It would also be nice 
if it could provide power, power factor, and other such measurements.

We would like it to have a hardy interface, such as Ethernet or old fashion 
serial port (no USB).  We take these measurements in our EMC Lab where USB has 
a hard time surviving.

Labview compatible would be nice. Since we write our own code, we will have to 
have access to the command set.

Any recommendations?  We don’t really need the features and expense of a full 
blown power analyzer. Does anyone make something like this?

Thanks,
The Other Brian

LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential 
information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by 
mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you.

-

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Re: [PSES] Different surge test equipment, different results

[Mick Maytum]

Peter,
The metrics we use to specify the more complex surge waveshapes are 
only a modest improvement over the answer a red one to the what car 
do you drive? question.
The ring and possibly 8/20 (part of the combination) waveshapes 
have current reversals, which complicates matters. Without details of 
what your different results were I can only make generalised comments.
IEC 62475 defines the stand alone 8/20 waveshape. There was 
considerable committee discussion on how you can't get a perfect 
8.00/20.0 waveshape with the simple RLC circuits that many standards 
show. For example they worked out for 20 µs ±20% the nominal 8 µs is 
constrained to 6.9 µs ±0.5 µs or ±7.2 % not the allowed ±20%. 
Under-swing or current reversal is allowed up to 30 %. It seemed to me 
that the people in the IEEE PES SPDC C62 formulation group where adamant 
that no under swing occurs. By enforcing this design constraint the 
resultant waveshape moves further away from the 8/20 goal.
In life testing, 8/20 current reversal is bad news for GDT surge 
protective components (SPCs) as it shortens the number of cycles that 
can be endured.
Several years ago at an ATIS PEG conference there where two 
interesting presentations that mentioned ring waves. The Telcordia one 
used a standard C62 generator to track down the part of the distributed 
system which was vulnerable to lighting. The HydroQuebec approach was to 
use a fast rising (1.4 µs) surge to shock excite the system to produce 
its natural ring wave (nothing like the C62 one of course).
As John correctly noted the generator is a network and its apparent 
reduction to a Thévenin source equivalent by quoting an effective or 
fictive source impedance of 2 ohm can form a mental trap.
These surge generators are then applied to further networks and 
EUTs that may have non-linear elements like MOV SPCs or rectifiers. All 
these things can exaggerate differences between generators.
On the theoretical side there was a recent ITU-T contribution on 
recommended Spice models for 1.2/50-8/20 combination generators. 
Surprisingly some of the models didn't fully meet the 1.2/50 and 8/20 
requirements.
We have to work with the tools we are given and expect variances 
because not everything is exactly the same.

Mick

On 21/08/2015 19:50, Peter Tarver wrote:

Good morning.

I'm wondering if others have experienced cases where different
manufacturers' surge test equipment  (ANSI/IEEE C62.41 ring and
combination waves) with nearly identical open-circuit voltage and
short-circuit current calibrations have led to very different results.  In
these cases, other than addressing the issue by using the surge generator
that produces the worst-case result, what were thought to be the causes
for the different results (ignoring the real possibility of a marginal
design).


Regards,

Peter L. Tarver

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Re: [PSES] Different surge test equipment, different results

[John Woodgate]

In message f116faaea7ea08f9e625b495e972e...@mail.gmail.com, dated Fri, 
21 Aug 2015, Peter Tarver ptar...@enphaseenergy.com writes:


I'm wondering if others have experienced cases where different 
manufacturers' surge test equipment  (ANSI/IEEE C62.41 ring and 
combination waves) with nearly identical open-circuit voltage and 
short-circuit current calibrations have led to very different results.


Not personally, but it is pretty obvious that these things are not 
classical Thévenin sources, so that the open-circuit voltage and the 
short-circuit current are *not* sufficient to characterize the source 
fully.

--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
When I turn my back on the sun, it's to look for a rainbow
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

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Re: [PSES] Different surge test equipment, different results

[Peter Tarver]

David -

Thank you.

In one case, the output was after the CDN.  In the other, the CDN was not in
the circuit.  I will ask for calibration screen captures with and without
the CDN on both cases.  This could prove informative.


Regards,

Peter Tarver

 -Original Message-
 From: Schaefer, David
 Sent: Friday, August 21, 2015 12:11

 Peter,

 Are the open circuit waveforms identical out of the surge
 generator, or out of the coupling decoupling network? -4-5
 relaxes the waveform limits for the rise time and duration at
 the output of a CDN, based on amperage. Check out tables
 6 and 7 of the 2nd Edition for more information. Two
 generators should produce identical waveshapes out of the
 generator itself, but the CDNs could have drastically
 different durations.


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Re: [PSES] Different surge test equipment, different results

[Schaefer, David]

Peter,

Are the open circuit waveforms identical out of the surge generator, or out of 
the coupling decoupling network? -4-5 relaxes the waveform limits for the rise 
time and duration at the output of a CDN, based on amperage. Check out tables 6 
and 7 of the 2nd Edition for more information. Two generators should produce 
identical waveshapes out of the generator itself, but the CDNs could have 
drastically different durations. 

Thanks,

David Schaefer
EMC Chief Technical Advisor
TÜV SÜD America Inc
Office: 651 638 0251
Cell: 612 578 6038
Fax: 651 638 0285

-Original Message-
From: Peter Tarver [mailto:ptar...@enphaseenergy.com] 
Sent: Friday, August 21, 2015 1:51 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Different surge test equipment, different results

Good morning.

I'm wondering if others have experienced cases where different manufacturers' 
surge test equipment  (ANSI/IEEE C62.41 ring and combination waves) with nearly 
identical open-circuit voltage and short-circuit current calibrations have led 
to very different results.  In these cases, other than addressing the issue by 
using the surge generator that produces the worst-case result, what were 
thought to be the causes for the different results (ignoring the real 
possibility of a marginal design).


Regards,

Peter L. Tarver

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[PSES] Different surge test equipment, different results

[Peter Tarver]

Good morning.

I'm wondering if others have experienced cases where different
manufacturers' surge test equipment  (ANSI/IEEE C62.41 ring and
combination waves) with nearly identical open-circuit voltage and
short-circuit current calibrations have led to very different results.  In
these cases, other than addressing the issue by using the surge generator
that produces the worst-case result, what were thought to be the causes
for the different results (ignoring the real possibility of a marginal
design).


Regards,

Peter L. Tarver

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Re: [PSES] Different surge test equipment, different results

[McDiarmid, Ralph]

Thanks David for bringing that detail into focus. 

Edition 2 writes about unwanted voltage drops from coupling/decoupling 
networks, while Table 6 allows for a shorter front time for higher line 
currents, presumably to reduces impedance required by the decoupling 
network ( a smaller inductance).   I think that's right because of the 10% 
voltage drop limit stipulated in clause 6.3.1.  At some point, the 
impedance of the decoupling network becomes so small, (Z=Vdrop/current),
it can no longer effectively decouple the surge wave front, and so less 
surge energy gets coupled into the EUT port. For line currents in excess 
of 100A, the standard goes all the way to allow testing a non-powered EUT, 
and so no decoupling network burden.

Perhaps large EUTs (those rated  100A) can be left powered at 100A for a 
live test.  I don't know if that's better than a de-energized EUT with 
no decoupling load burden.  Partial testing of large EUT (e.g. testing the 
control circuits alone) seems inadequate, but a diligent discussion in a 
Technical File could accompany the test results.  Some assessors might 
have trouble with the arguments though.  There is lots of grey.

___ 


Ralph McDiarmid  |   Schneider Electric   |  Solar Business  |   CANADA  | 
  Regulatory Compliance Engineering 




From:
Schaefer, David dschae...@tuvam.com
To:
EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG, 
Date:
08/21/2015 12:30 PM
Subject:
Re: [PSES] Different surge test equipment, different results



Peter,

Are the open circuit waveforms identical out of the surge generator, or 
out of the coupling decoupling network? -4-5 relaxes the waveform limits 
for the rise time and duration at the output of a CDN, based on amperage. 
Check out tables 6 and 7 of the 2nd Edition for more information. Two 
generators should produce identical waveshapes out of the generator 
itself, but the CDNs could have drastically different durations. 

Thanks,

David Schaefer
EMC Chief Technical Advisor
TÜV SÜD America Inc
Office: 651 638 0251
Cell: 612 578 6038
Fax: 651 638 0285

-Original Message-
From: Peter Tarver [mailto:ptar...@enphaseenergy.com] 
Sent: Friday, August 21, 2015 1:51 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Different surge test equipment, different results

Good morning.

I'm wondering if others have experienced cases where different 
manufacturers' surge test equipment  (ANSI/IEEE C62.41 ring and 
combination waves) with nearly identical open-circuit voltage and 
short-circuit current calibrations have led to very different results.  In 
these cases, other than addressing the issue by using the surge generator 
that produces the worst-case result, what were thought to be the causes 
for the different results (ignoring the real possibility of a marginal 
design).


Regards,

Peter L. Tarver

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Re: [PSES] Test equipment

[Richard Marshall]

Hi,

I too am the recent proud owner of an HP8753B Network Analyser; a 
mind-blowingly clever piece of equipment.  Recommended for its Educational and 
practical value!.

As received, the fan ran - but was very noisy.  I replaced the fan with an 
EBM-Papst 4414M, which was slightly quieter - but not as much improvement as I 
had hoped.

The CRT screen display was a bit dim, but I achieved a surprising and very 
useful improvement by following the procedure for re-centering the screen 
display.  This brought new areas of phosphor into use for the graticule and all 
the screen data. Much easier to read now.

My remaining problem is intermittant uncertain contact closure of the various 
push-buttons - -presumably dirt or weak springs.  If anyone knows how to remedy 
or get replacements please advise!


Richard Marshall
MA, CEng., FIEE, FInst.P, FIET

Richard Marshall Laboratories
30 Ox Lane, Harpenden, Herts. 
AL5 4HE UK 
Phone +44 (0)1582 460815www.design-emc.co.uk
Member of the EMC Industry Association

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Re: [PSES] Test equipment

[John Woodgate]

In message 356067BD6A034A848DB054322C7EA6B3@delld28c3cd7db, dated Sat, 
28 Jun 2014, Richard Marshall richard.marshal...@btinternet.com 
writes:


I too am the recent proud owner of an HP8753B Network Analyser; a 
mind-blowingly clever piece of equipment.  Recommended for its 
Educational and practical value!.

 


Hello, Richard. I hope you are well. Where did you get this new toy, and 
would you mind giving a price indication?

--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
Quid faciamus nisi sit?
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

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Re: [PSES] Test equipment

[Ed Price]

Many of the more modern analyzers provide a back-panel video output; you can
often connect a cheap LCD display to that port and get a great improvement
over the aging built-in CRT display.

 

Ed Price
WB6WSN
Chula Vista, CA USA
1961 Amphicar 770
2001 Fleetwood Storm 31W
2008 Ford Explorer

 

From: Richard Marshall [mailto:richard.marshal...@btinternet.com] 
Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2014 2:41 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Test equipment

 

Hi,

 

I too am the recent proud owner of an HP8753B Network Analyser; a
mind-blowingly clever piece of equipment.  Recommended for its Educational
and practical value!.

 

As received, the fan ran - but was very noisy.  I replaced the fan with an
EBM-Papst 4414M, which was slightly quieter - but not as much improvement as
I had hoped.

 

The CRT screen display was a bit dim, but I achieved a surprising and very
useful improvement by following the procedure for re-centering the screen
display.  This brought new areas of phosphor into use for the graticule and
all the screen data. Much easier to read now.

 

My remaining problem is intermittant uncertain contact closure of the
various push-buttons - -presumably dirt or weak springs.  If anyone knows
how to remedy or get replacements please advise!

 

 

Richard Marshall
MA, CEng., FIEE, FInst.P, FIET

 

Richard Marshall Laboratories
30 Ox Lane, Harpenden, Herts. 
AL5 4HE UK 
Phone +44 (0)1582 460815www.design-emc.co.uk
http://www.design-emc.co.uk/ 
Member of the EMC Industry Association

-


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Re: [PSES] Test equipment

[CR]

I have a 19 inch yard-sale LCD TV hooked up to my Advantest R3261A (not 
a more modern instrument).   It flickers once in a while, but that 
doesn't matter for my use.  A local firm, Comprenew, has 48 and 96 
inch wall mounted but analog (not guaranteed to work) TV's/displays 
for pocket change. No thanks, but imagine the effect when the customers 
see your readout.  1 dB/cm resolution, no problem.


(We wont' speak to accuracy, will we? The 3261 measures dB to two 
decimal places...)


Cortland
KA5S

On 6/28/2014 7:07 AM, Ed Price wrote:


*Many of the more modern analyzers provide a back-panel video output; 
you can often connect a cheap LCD display to that port and get a great 
improvement over the aging built-in CRT display.*


**

*/Ed Price/*




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Re: [PSES] Test equipment

[Pat Lawler]

Richard,

I once had an HP spectrum analyzer than had a dim screen after 10+
years of operation.  Moving the display centering to use other parts
of the phospher didn't help.

I then removed the display glass and found a thin, even, layer of dust
on the CRT.  Thank you, electrostatic precipitation.  Cleaning the CRT
(and display glass) made the display look like new.

Pat

On Sat, Jun 28, 2014 at 2:40 AM, Richard Marshall
richard.marshal...@btinternet.com wrote:
 Hi,

 I too am the recent proud owner of an HP8753B Network Analyser; a
 mind-blowingly clever piece of equipment.  Recommended for its Educational
 and practical value!.

 As received, the fan ran - but was very noisy.  I replaced the fan with an
 EBM-Papst 4414M, which was slightly quieter - but not as much improvement as
 I had hoped.

 The CRT screen display was a bit dim, but I achieved a surprising and very
 useful improvement by following the procedure for re-centering the screen
 display.  This brought new areas of phosphor into use for the graticule and
 all the screen data. Much easier to read now.

 My remaining problem is intermittant uncertain contact closure of the
 various push-buttons - -presumably dirt or weak springs.  If anyone knows
 how to remedy or get replacements please advise!


 Richard Marshall
 MA, CEng., FIEE, FInst.P, FIET

 Richard Marshall Laboratories
 30 Ox Lane, Harpenden, Herts.
 AL5 4HE UK
 Phone +44 (0)1582 460815www.design-emc.co.uk
 Member of the EMC Industry Association
 -
 

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[PSES] Test equipment question

[Ken Javor]

Am the proud new owner of an (obsolete) HP 8753 network analyzer. The unit
works, but the fan doesn¹t come on when powered up. I have all the manuals,
but they don¹t say whether the fan should be on at all times, or whether it
is thermostatically-controlled.  The unit is supposed to shut down in an
overtemp situation, but that is not the same as a
thermostatically-controlled fan.

Anyone out there know, or know how to find out, short of trying to induce an
overtemp situation?

Thank you,

Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261



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Re: [PSES] Test equipment question

[Jeffrey Gilbert]

Ken,

Mine (8753ES) has two diagnostic LEDs on the back; one on and one off
(Normal Operation).  The fan is always on.  If your LEDs are correct and
the fan is not running, I'd say the fan is probably broken or maybe not
plugged in inside the unit.
On Jun 27, 2014 12:07 PM, Ken Javor ken.ja...@emccompliance.com wrote:

  Am the proud new owner of an (obsolete) HP 8753 network analyzer. The
 unit works, but the fan doesn't come on when powered up. I have all the
 manuals, but they don't say whether the fan should be on at all times, or
 whether it is thermostatically-controlled.  The unit is supposed to shut
 down in an overtemp situation, but that is not the same as a
 thermostatically-controlled fan.

 Anyone out there know, or know how to find out, short of trying to induce
 an overtemp situation?

 Thank you,

 Ken Javor
 Phone: (256) 650-5261

  -
 

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Re: [PSES] Test equipment question

[Ken Javor]

Mine is an ³A² model without the LEDs, but thank you for letting me know the
fan should be on all the time.


Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261



From: Jeffrey Gilbert jeff.gilber...@gmail.com
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2014 13:41:03 -0700
To: Ken Javor ken.ja...@emccompliance.com
Cc: EMC-PSTC@listserv.ieee.org
Subject: Re: [PSES] Test equipment question

Ken,

Mine (8753ES) has two diagnostic LEDs on the back; one on and one off
(Normal Operation).  The fan is always on.  If your LEDs are correct and the
fan is not running, I'd say the fan is probably broken or maybe not plugged
in inside the unit.

On Jun 27, 2014 12:07 PM, Ken Javor ken.ja...@emccompliance.com wrote:
 Am the proud new owner of an (obsolete) HP 8753 network analyzer. The unit
 works, but the fan doesn¹t come on when powered up. I have all the manuals,
 but they don¹t say whether the fan should be on at all times, or whether it is
 thermostatically-controlled.  The unit is supposed to shut down in an overtemp
 situation, but that is not the same as a thermostatically-controlled fan.
 
 Anyone out there know, or know how to find out, short of trying to induce an
 overtemp situation?
 
 Thank you,
 
 Ken Javor
 Phone: (256) 650-5261
 
 -
 
 
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Re: [PSES] Test equipment question

[Ed Price]

I have service manuals plus much more (138 MB zipped) on the original, A, D
 ES variants. A pack is already on the way to Ken; anyone else who wants a
copy just email me off-list.

 

Ed Price
WB6WSN
Chula Vista, CA USA
1961 Amphicar 770
2001 Fleetwood Storm 31W
2008 Ford Explorer

 

From: Ken Javor [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com] 
Sent: Friday, June 27, 2014 1:46 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Test equipment question

 

Mine is an A model without the LEDs, but thank you for letting me know the
fan should be on all the time.


Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261



  _  

From: Jeffrey Gilbert jeff.gilber...@gmail.com
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2014 13:41:03 -0700
To: Ken Javor ken.ja...@emccompliance.com
Cc: EMC-PSTC@listserv.ieee.org
Subject: Re: [PSES] Test equipment question

Ken,

Mine (8753ES) has two diagnostic LEDs on the back; one on and one off
(Normal Operation).  The fan is always on.  If your LEDs are correct and the
fan is not running, I'd say the fan is probably broken or maybe not plugged
in inside the unit.

On Jun 27, 2014 12:07 PM, Ken Javor ken.ja...@emccompliance.com wrote:

Am the proud new owner of an (obsolete) HP 8753 network analyzer. The unit
works, but the fan doesn't come on when powered up. I have all the manuals,
but they don't say whether the fan should be on at all times, or whether it
is thermostatically-controlled.  The unit is supposed to shut down in an
overtemp situation, but that is not the same as a
thermostatically-controlled fan.

Anyone out there know, or know how to find out, short of trying to induce an
overtemp situation?

Thank you,

Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261





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[PSES] Test equipment rentals - Northeast USA

[Doug Powell]

 ‎All,‎I have a client who is looking for a for test equipment rental company specializing in compliance testing. This would include tests such as Surge, EFT/Burst for both 100kHz and 1 MHZ, also Ringwave, CDNs and so on. It may be possible there will also be a need for other equipment such as accessibility probes, impact spheres, etc.A rental house that carries well known brands is preferred and must be able to provide equipment with full ISO 17025 calibration with data from an accredited calibration lab. My client is in the Philadelphia area and I am personally unfamiliar with any local sources. So any thing in the Northeast states will do fine.Thanks, - dougDouglas Powellhttp://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01 
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[PSES] High voltage output for test equipment

[Paul Milton]

Hello all,



I'm wondering if anyone has experience with test equipment intended to put
out a high voltage to a set of accessible test leads, e.g. a hipot tester.
If so, for compliance to 61010-1, how do you get around the access to
hazardous live parts issue?



Thanks,





*Paul MiltonGM Compliance, Inc.714-628-1020 x 104*

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Re: [PSES] High voltage output for test equipment

[Brian Oconnell]

There are sections of the standard(s) that address construction and performance 
where, for operating reasons, haz V must be exposed.

Brian

From: Paul Milton [mailto:p...@gmcompliance.com] 
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 11:48 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] High voltage output for test equipment

Hello all,
 
I'm wondering if anyone has experience with test equipment intended to put out 
a high voltage to a set of accessible test leads, e.g. a hipot tester.  If so, 
for compliance to 61010-1, how do you get around the access to hazardous live 
parts issue?
 
Thanks, 
 
Paul Milton
GM Compliance, Inc.
714-628-1020 x 104

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Re: [PSES] High voltage output for test equipment

[Doug Powell]

Hi Paul,

This is allowed but you cannot use the 61010-1 Part 1 basic standard alone.
 You must bring in a Part 2, particular standard to be used in
conjunction with Part 1.  Select the Part 2 for the type of handheld probes
you are using.  Take a look at EN/IEC 61010-2-30 and EN/IEC 61010-2-32.

If you think about it there are plenty of instances where hazards are
exposed as a result of the functionality of the product.  For example
EN/IEC 61010-2-010 is for heating equipment and exposed hot plates are
allowed.  There is a requirement now for risk assessment and foreseeable
misuse which can be the risk of shock by untrained people.

One thing, with Part 2 standards, you must use the applicable combination
of Parts 1 and 2. That is, the edition numbers must correlate.  The notes
on IEC 61010-2-30 say, *This Part 2-030 is to be used in conjunction with
the latest edition of IEC 61010-1. It was established on the basis of the
third edition (2010) of IEC 61010-1.*  In the past, this has been a
serious issue when the timing of mandatory compliance with the Part 1 Ed 3
is in effect and the planned update to a Part 2 standard is not yet
available.  I have attempted translating clause references in the past,
but this is technically not allowed for full product certification.


thanks, -doug

Douglas E Powell
http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01


On Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 12:48 PM, Paul Milton p...@gmcompliance.com wrote:

 Hello all,



 I'm wondering if anyone has experience with test equipment intended to put
 out a high voltage to a set of accessible test leads, e.g. a hipot tester.
 If so, for compliance to 61010-1, how do you get around the access to
 hazardous live parts issue?



 Thanks,





 *Paul Milton GM Compliance, Inc.714-628-1020 x 104
 714-628-1020%20x%20104*

 *Notice *- E-mail Confidentiality Disclaimer:  The information in this
 email along with any attachments may contain privileged or confidential
 information.  It is intended solely for the addressee. If you are not the
 intended recipient, you may not disclose, use, disseminate, distribute, or
 copy this message or attachment in any way. Access to this email by anyone
 else is unauthorized.  If you received this e-mail in error, please notify
 sender and delete message and any attachments.


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-- 

Douglas E Powell
970-646-3732
doug...@gmail.com
Skype: doug.powell52
http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01

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Re: [PSES] High voltage output for test equipment

[Donald McElheran]

We have a dielectric tester which makes use of retractable high voltage test 
probes.

The probe requires an operator to depress a plunger to access the conductive 
tip. 

Google comes up with some options.


Donald McElheran 
Product Compliance Specialist
Ross Video | Production Technology Experts
www.rossvideo.com
T +1 (613) 652-3011
M +1 (613) 867-3943



-Original Message-
From: Brian Oconnell [mailto:oconne...@tamuracorp.com] 
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 3:54 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] High voltage output for test equipment

There are sections of the standard(s) that address construction and performance 
where, for operating reasons, haz V must be exposed.

Brian

From: Paul Milton [mailto:p...@gmcompliance.com] 
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 11:48 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] High voltage output for test equipment

Hello all,
 
I'm wondering if anyone has experience with test equipment intended to put out 
a high voltage to a set of accessible test leads, e.g. a hipot tester.  If so, 
for compliance to 61010-1, how do you get around the access to hazardous live 
parts issue?
 
Thanks, 
 
Paul Milton
GM Compliance, Inc.
714-628-1020 x 104

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Re: [PSES] High voltage output for test equipment

[John Woodgate]

In message 
cabyvtvnveyhm5sqvhvmgpbdeqptxj0x3jl7dme2vtndarmc...@mail.gmail.com, 
dated Thu, 27 Mar 2014, Doug Powell doug...@gmail.com writes:


.  In the past, this has been a serious issue when the timing of 
mandatory compliance with the Part 1 Ed 3 is in effect and the planned 
update to a Part 2 standard is not yet available.


The standards committee has means at its disposal to prevent this 
problem. It should be encouraged to use them.

--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
Nondum ex silvis sumus
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

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[PSES] question: emc test equipment(for IEC 61800-3 immunity test)

[Youngsik Kim]

Hi, group

I plan to measure the servo motor for emc test
so i looking for a device that can be to measure the Immunity in IEC
61800-3 is a relevant standard

Measurement immunity items is;
- commutation nothes (IEC 60146-1-1)
- Harmonics ralating to IEC 61000-2-4
- Voltage changes, dips, fluctuation, and interruptiong relating to IEC
61000-2-1
- etc

Please tell me if you know equipment manufacturers.

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[PSES] question: emc test equipment(for IEC 61800-3 immunity test)

[Ed Price]

 

Kim:

 

It is usually best to start out in EMC testing by taking your device to a
local test lab and watching very closely what they do, how they do it, and
what they use. After you see it up close once, then you can determine if you
really want to develop the internal expertise and hardware to do this on
your own. Many times, you can use generic test equipment to do a credible
engineering (or pre-test) evaluation, if that's all you really need.

 

Ed Price
WB6WSN
Chula Vista, CA USA

 

From: Youngsik Kim [mailto:fs741fs...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 5:44 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] question: emc test equipment(for IEC 61800-3 immunity test)

 

Hi, group

 

I plan to measure the servo motor for emc test

so i looking for a device that can be to measure the Immunity in IEC 61800-3
is a relevant standard

 

Measurement immunity items is;

- commutation nothes (IEC 60146-1-1)

- Harmonics ralating to IEC 61000-2-4

- Voltage changes, dips, fluctuation, and interruptiong relating to IEC
61000-2-1

- etc

 

Please tell me if you know equipment manufacturers.

 

-


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Re: [PSES] question: emc test equipment(for IEC 61800-3 immunity test)

[John Woodgate]

In message 
caormcmdghz2gcut7_--v5fvb38pzn9x0gv4wzpjebaasahw...@mail.gmail.com, 
dated Thu, 12 Sep 2013, Youngsik Kim fs741fs...@gmail.com writes:



- Harmonics ralating to IEC 61000-2-4
- Voltage changes, dips, fluctuation, and interruptiong relating to IEC 
61000-2-1

- etc


Those two standards do not set requirements for equipment. Requirements 
are in the 61000-3 series and the 61000-4 series.

--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
If dictionaries were correct, we would only need one, because they would all
give the same information.
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

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[PSES] HF HV medical test equipment

[Kim Boll Jensen]

Hi

 

I’m trying to find a test equipment that can be used for the EN 60601-2-2
§201.8.8.3.103 ACTIVE ACCESSORY HF dielectric strength. Test data is; 7.2
kV, Crest factor 5.4 – 6.6, Frequency 300 – 500kHz

 

Normally I use a signal generator with modulation (to control crest factor)
a AR HF amplifier and a HV transformer. But the only transformers I can get
is only rated 100kHz so I need to drive them very hard to get a 300kHz
signal through, and thereby I have now blown 8 transformers over the last 2
years.

 

A good HV HF transformer could also be an option, but they don’t seem to be
standard product and a local transformer manufacturer could not make one for
me. (the primary impedance shall be higher than normal)

 

Where can I get a tester or a transformer?

 

Best regards

 

Mr. Kim Boll Jensen

Bolls Aps

Ved Gadekæret 11F

DK-3660 Stenløse

 

Phone: +45 48 18 35 66

 

k...@bolls.dk

www.bolls.dk

 


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[PSES] Test Equipment for Sale

[Scott Douglas]

Forwarded to the list for a subscriber by Scott Douglas. Please respond 
directly to the subscriber and not to the list.


Fellow Listserver members of long standing!

By degrees, I will be placing my inventory of test lab equipment onto 
the *http://www.labmerchant.com* website. The first batch went live today.


I have ran test labs for over 30 years including DEC UK who helped me 
establish my own lab, INTERTest Systems (UK), which I operated for 14 yrs.


Putting all that experience to good use, I have transitioned into 
Technical Assessment of test laboratories and my own lab is now surplus 
to requirements.


It's difficult to put a price on equipment you've looked after but I've 
tried to value it conservatively, and I'm open to offers. Much of the 
equipment was bought for its quality, regardless of cost by 'you-know-who'.


More applicable to UK based organisations with the ability to refurbish 
climatic chambers. I have two Fisons/Gallencamp/Sanyo walk-in 
environmental chambers. They are dis-mantled and ready to go. One is 2.4 
x 2.4 x 2.4M and a smaller one. Details, specs and User manuals 
available (email me).


I hope I have captured your interest.

Eric.

eric.m...@emtas.co.uk



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Jim Bacher:  j.bac...@ieee.org
David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com

[PSES] immunity test equipment

[Joel mandel]

I am looking for test system for immunity testing IEC6100-4-4, IEC6100-4-5, 
IEC6100-4-8, IEC6100-4-9, IEC6100-4-11  IEC6100-4-28

I have got a quotation for ECOMPACT 4 compact test system 4KV

The vendor is HAEFELY Tech./France.

Anybody have any other  recommendations ?

I am actually looking for someone with support in Israel.



Ashray consulting 

Moshav Chemed 

Israel


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[PSES] Fwd List of Test Equipment for Sale

[Macy]

Ladies/Gentlemen:

I am not associated with this firm, nor benefit from any sales they may make.
I have worked with this firm before and appreciated their Quality of Products 
and Professionalism at supplying Test Equipment.

I thought someone in this group may benefit from new contact and from the Test 
Equipment they are offering.

Regards,
Robert


The following email is TEXT only:
=-=-=
From:   Jennifer DuMond jdum...@prioritytest.com 
To: 'undisclosed recipients' nthr...@prioritytest.com
Subject:Priority Test - March Check In!
Date:   Mon 03/12/12 06:22 PM

Hi - 

How are you?

Are you looking to buy (refurbished), rent, sale or repair any test equipment 
today?

Remember -  We specialize in refurbished Agilent, Tektronix, Fluke, RS, 
Instek, SRS, SmartBits, (plus an additional 400 manufacturers) for electronic 
test equipment such as oscilloscopes, power supplies, spectrum and network 
analyzers, probes, amplifiers, electronic loads, accessories plus much more.

We  have the following items FOR SALE (manual and power cord included only - 
calibration extra):

TEK TDS694C - 3GHz/4 channel - 10 GS/s digital oscilloscope - $5995
ANR MG3633A - 10kHz-2700MHz Synthesized Signal Generator - $3795
EIP 578 - 26.5 GHz Frequency Counter - $3995
AT/HP 3325B - Synthesizer/Function Generator - $795
AT/HP 3458A - Multimeter w/cal certificate - $5995 w/cal cert
AT/HP 437B - RF Power Meter - $200/ea
AT/HP 438A - 50 MHz power meter - $250/ea
AT 85033D - Calibration Kit 3.5MM - $2795
SmartBits 6000B - 20 module mainframe - $2495
TEK VM700A - Video Measurement Test Set - $1495
Chroma 6314 w/63103 - Load with 1 module - $1995

Happy upcoming St. Patrick’s Day!  

Remember to give us a call or email when you need to buy, rent or repair test 
equipment  – We’re happy to help!

Thanks again and have a great day!  

Nanette  Jennifer  Chelsea

Nanette Throne
Account Manager
Priority Test Equipment   
925-513-7300 ofc  
925-513-7338fax   
925-759-1093 mobile
nthr...@prioritytest.com
www.prioritytest.com

Jennifer DuMond
Inside Sales Representative
Western  Northern United States
jdum...@prioritytest.com

Chelsea Alayne
Inside Sales Representative
Eastern  Southern United States
cala...@prioritytest.com
=-=-= 

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2.4 GHz and GPS test equipment wanted

[emc-p...@ieee.org]

Client is looking for some test equipment if anyone is selling any, or knows
anyone who is:

 

Agilent N4010A  (x4 sets)

Spirent GSS6100  (x3 sets)

 

Regards

Charlie

 

Charlie Blackham

Sulis Consultants Ltd

Tel: +44 (0)7946 624317

Web: www.sulisconsultants.com http://www.sulisconsultants.com/ 

Registered in England and Wales, number 05466247

 

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AW: FCC part 15.103 c) and test equipment in acc. to EN 61326-1

[emc-p...@ieee.org]

Ghery

 

I can remember formerly PSES discussions regarding this exemption rules (I am
not sure when).

 

15.103 c) stipulates 

 

“A digital device used exclusively as industrial, commercial, or medical
test equipment.”

 

and could be read as follows:

 

“… industrial TEST EQUIPMENT OR commercial TEST EQUIPMENT, or medical TEST
EQUIPMENT.”

 

You don´t agree?

 

Best regards

 

Dipl.-Ing. Michael Loerzer

Managing Director
Regulatory Affairs Specialist

 

Das neue Buch zum Thema Product Compliance:
http://www.beuth.de/sc/produktkonformitaet
http://www.beuth.de/sc/produktkonformitaet  (Produktkonformität, Prozesse,
Risikomanagement, CE-Kennzeichnung, Fallbeispiele für Geschäftsführung,
Konstruktion, Normenabteilung, Vertrieb, Einkauf, Produktion, QM)

 

_

Globalnorm GmbH

Alt-Moabit 94

10559 Berlin

 

Fon +49 30 3229027-51

Mobile +49 170 3229027

Fax +49 30 3229027-59

Mailmichael.loer...@globalnorm.de
mailto:michael.loer...@globalnorm.de 

 

www.globalnorm.de http://www.globalnorm.de/ 

www.globalnorm.ca http://www.globalnorm.ca/ 

www.product-compliance.com http://www.product-compliance.com/ 

 

_

Globalnorm GmbH, Sitz der Gesellschaft: Alt-Moabit 94, 10559 Berlin

Geschäftsführer: Dipl.-Ing. Michael Loerzer

Amtsgericht Berlin-Charlottenburg HRB 105204 B, USt-ID-Nummer: DE251654448

 

Von: Pettit, Ghery [mailto:ghery.pet...@intel.com] 
Gesendet: Montag, 19. September 2011 22:42
An: Michael Loerzer
Betreff: RE: FCC part 15.103 c) and test equipment in acc. to EN 61326-1

 

No.  Two different regulatory regimes.  CE Marking for the EU, FCC for the US.

 

Ghery S. Pettit

 

From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Michael Loerzer
Sent: Monday, September 19, 2011 1:32 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: FCC part 15.103 c) and test equipment in acc. to EN 61326-1

 

Hello,

 

is test equipment which bears the European CE mark in acc. to 2004/108/EC with
EN 61326-1 and 2006/95/EC with EN 61010-1 exempted by 47 CFR 15.103 c)?  

 

Thanks for comments

 

Best regards

 

Dipl.-Ing. Michael Loerzer

Managing Director
Regulatory Affairs Specialist

 

 

_

Globalnorm GmbH

Alt-Moabit 94

10559 Berlin

 

Fon +49 30 3229027-51

Mobile +49 170 3229027

Fax +49 30 3229027-59

Mailmichael.loer...@globalnorm.de

 

www.globalnorm.de http://www.globalnorm.de/ 

www.globalnorm.ca http://www.globalnorm.ca/ 

www.product-compliance.com http://www.product-compliance.com/ 

 

_

Globalnorm GmbH, Sitz der Gesellschaft: Alt-Moabit 94, 10559 Berlin

Geschäftsführer: Dipl.-Ing. Michael Loerzer

Amtsgericht Berlin-Charlottenburg HRB 105204 B, USt-ID-Nummer: DE251654448

 

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FCC part 15.103 c) and test equipment in acc. to EN 61326-1

[emc-p...@ieee.org]

Hello,

 

is test equipment which bears the European CE mark in acc. to 2004/108/EC with
EN 61326-1 and 2006/95/EC with EN 61010-1 exempted by 47 CFR 15.103 c)?  

 

Thanks for comments

 

Best regards

 

Dipl.-Ing. Michael Loerzer

Managing Director
Regulatory Affairs Specialist

 

 

_

Globalnorm GmbH

Alt-Moabit 94

10559 Berlin

 

Fon +49 30 3229027-51

Mobile +49 170 3229027

Fax +49 30 3229027-59

Mailmichael.loer...@globalnorm.de
mailto:michael.loer...@globalnorm.de 

 

www.globalnorm.de http://www.globalnorm.de/ 

www.globalnorm.ca http://www.globalnorm.ca/ 

www.product-compliance.com http://www.product-compliance.com/ 

 

_

Globalnorm GmbH, Sitz der Gesellschaft: Alt-Moabit 94, 10559 Berlin

Geschäftsführer: Dipl.-Ing. Michael Loerzer

Amtsgericht Berlin-Charlottenburg HRB 105204 B, USt-ID-Nummer: DE251654448

 

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RE: MIL-STD-461F CS115 CS116 Test Equipment

[emc-p...@ieee.org]

I have Solar and it works very well; we have been very happy with all Solar
equipment we have purchased over the years.

 

 

Thank you.

 

Rob Kado

Manager  Sr Technical Specialist

Electromagnetic Compatibility

Chrysler 

800 Chrysler Drive

CIMS 481-47-20

Auburn Hills, MI 48326

 

Desk:  (248) 576-6915

Mobile:   (248) 467-0639

Fax: (248) 576-7045 

 

 

From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Price, Andrew
(SELEX GALILEO, UK)
Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2011 10:08 AM
To: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: MIL-STD-461F CS115  CS116 Test Equipment

 

Hi All

 

Can the group advise on what they believe is the best test equipment for
carrying out MIL-STD-461F CS115 and CS116 Testing.

Have had a look at Solar, EMC Partner and Montana.

 

All these manufacturers appear to offer the appopriate equipment but am
looking for the equipment that provides the best reliability and reasonabley
future proof (if there is such a thing).

 

Regards

Andy

 

 

Andrew P. Price

Principle Hardware Engineer, EMC Specialist

SELEX GALILEO, A Finmeccanica Company

Sigma House

Basildon

Essex 

SS14 3EL

 

(   Tel  : +44 (0)1268 883308   (EMC LAB) 

) Mobile : +44 (0)7507 854888

  

email :  andrew.p.pr...@selexgalileo.com
mailto:andrew.p.pr...@selexgalileo.com 

  www.selexgalileo.com http://www.selexgalileo.com/ 

 

P Please consider the environment before printing this email. 

 

 

SELEX Galileo Ltd
Registered Office: Sigma House, Christopher Martin Road, Basildon, Essex SS14
3EL
A company registered in England  Wales.  Company no. 02426132

This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended
recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender.
You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or
distribute its contents to any other person.


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MIL-STD-461F CS115 CS116 Test Equipment

[emc-p...@ieee.org]

Hi All
 
Can the group advise on what they believe is the best test equipment for
carrying out MIL-STD-461F CS115 and CS116 Testing.
Have had a look at Solar, EMC Partner and Montana.
 
All these manufacturers appear to offer the appopriate equipment but am
looking for the equipment that provides the best reliability and reasonabley
future proof (if there is such a thing).
 
Regards
Andy
 
 
Andrew P. Price

Principle Hardware Engineer, EMC Specialist

SELEX GALILEO, A Finmeccanica Company

Sigma House

Basildon

Essex 

SS14 3EL

 

(   Tel  : +44 (0)1268 883308   (EMC LAB) 

) Mobile : +44 (0)7507 854888

  

email :  andrew.p.pr...@selexgalileo.com
mailto:andrew.p.pr...@selexgalileo.com 

  www.selexgalileo.com http://www.selexgalileo.com/ 

 

P Please consider the environment before printing this email. 

 
 
SELEX Galileo Ltd
Registered Office: Sigma House, Christopher Martin Road, Basildon, Essex SS14
3EL
A company registered in England  Wales.  Company no. 02426132

This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended
recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
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Re: [PSES] CE Testing for Test Equipment

[emc-p...@ieee.org]

In message 
201048ea81ba0745aca78e4cc883900109305...@desmdswms201.des.grplnk.net, 
dated Wed, 26 Jan 2011, Haynes, Tim (SELEX GALILEO, UK) 
tim.hay...@selexgalileo.com writes:

John - I consider it a nice try - but I don't think that it qualifies. 
To take advantage of 4.4 of the guide, I believe that the Italian 
Company would need to request the manufacturer of the equipment to 
custom make items for that specific location. In my mind, the equipment 
that falls into this category would be a production line that needs to 
fit into the available floor space and would be installed. The 
manufacturer would also need to be able to show that it had taken into 
account the specific EMC environment that exists at the pre-defined 
fixed installation.

Your interpretation is far too stringent. The provision DOES apply to 
small custom 'boxes of tricks', not just large items, and the OP said 
that they were purpose-built, not commercially available. It is quite 
clear from the Guide that such 'boxes' do not have to be literally 
'one-off' - an (implied small) number can be deployed at specified 
sites.

There really is no justifiable reason to say that a box can be used at 
one site but not at another whose EMC environment is not significantly 
different.

I deliberately wrote:

  Note carefully what you have to say in the EMC Assessment 
documentation.

...to call attention to the need to comment on EMC environments in the 
assessment document.
-- 
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK
Plural: data, criteria, phenomena. Singular: datum (different meaning: use
'data element' for a single item), criterion, phenomenon. 'Effect' is a noun,
'affect' is a verb (except in psychiatry).

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Re: [PSES] CE Testing for Test Equipment

[emc-p...@ieee.org]

I wouldn't recommend shipping anything into Italy with anything less than 
impeccable approvals, paperwork and process, even from within the EU.
 
You may never see the goods again! The Italians do love their bureaucracy.
 
I advise applying the mark on that basis alone.
 
Regards,
T


-Original Message-
From: Chris Anderson (cmanderson) cmander...@micron.com
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Sent: Tue, Jan 25, 2011 5:57 pm
Subject: [PSES] CE Testing for Test Equipment


Experts,
 
My employer wants to ship some (less than ten) proprietary testers to one of 
our locations in Italy.  These will never be available on the open market and 
would be used on at the site they’re being shipped to.  I thought I had read 
somewhere that such items were exempt from EMC testing, but can’t find anything 
to confirm that suspicion.
 
I think this has been discussed previously, but searching the archives didn’t 
yield anything relevant and Google was not my friend with the various 
combinations of terms that I tried.
 
Thanks,
Chris
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RE: [PSES] CE Testing for Test Equipment

[emc-p...@ieee.org]

Hi All,

John - I consider it a nice try - but I don't think that it qualifies.
To take advantage of 4.4 of the guide, I believe that the Italian
Company would need to request the manufacturer of the equipment to
custom make items for that specific location. In my mind, the equipment
that falls into this category would be a production line that needs to
fit into the available floor space and would be installed. The
manufacturer would also need to be able to show that it had taken into
account the specific EMC environment that exists at the pre-defined
fixed installation.

From what has been said, my understanding is that the equipment is
portable and has not been custom designed for the fixed installation and
that there is no request from the Italian company for the equipment to
be custom designed. The manufacturer has no evidence that the
Electromagnetic Environment at the site has been taken into account in
the design and it has not been stated that the equipment is not
available for use at other sites.
In particular, because the equipment is portable, it is not easy to see
the equipment remaining at the intended site.

For this reason, I suggest that the EMC Directive (and any other
Directive that is applicable) should be complied with.

HOWEVER, if there is a well defined link between the manufacturer and
the user - ie. They are the same company with the same name - then using
the taking into service may be appropriate hence avoiding the CE
marking. In practice, to know that the products are approved (by the
Company) for safety etc. it my be that some form of marking is required
- if nothing else, to satisfy the safety people on the Italian site. In
this case, maybe CE marked equipment would be preferable.

Regards
Tim




Tim Haynes 

Electromagnetic Engineering Specialist

SELEX Galileo, A Finmeccanica Company

300 Capability Green

Luton

LU1 3PG 

(Phone () +44 (0) 1582 886239 (Mob )) +44 (0) 7540629920 (Fax  7)+44
(0)1582 795863

(Email *)   tim.hay...@selexgalileo.com

www.selexgalileo.com

P Please consider the environment before printing this email. 

 

There are 10 types of people in the world-those who understand binary
and those who don't. J. Paxman


-Original Message-
From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk] 
Sent: 25 January 2011 18:43
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] CE Testing for Test Equipment


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  Keep this in mind if you answer this message.
 

In message 009701cbbcbc$0f3eab70$2dbc0250$@com, dated Tue, 25 Jan 
2011, Charlie Blackham emcp...@sulisconsultants.com writes:

Have a look at Guide for the EMC Directive 2004/108/EC.

Wrong clause, I think. The OP is looking for the 'one-off' provisions 
-clause 4.4 of the Guide and Article 13 of the Directive.

If each purpose-made tester is used only at one specific site, it seems 
to me that they qualify under those provisions. Note carefully what you 
have to say in the EMC Assessment documentation.
-- 
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK
Plural: data, criteria, phenomena. Singular: datum (different meaning:
use
'data element' for a single item), criterion, phenomenon. 'Effect' is a
noun,
'affect' is a verb (except in psychiatry).

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Re: [PSES] CE Testing for Test Equipment

[emc-p...@ieee.org]

In message 009701cbbcbc$0f3eab70$2dbc0250$@com, dated Tue, 25 Jan 
2011, Charlie Blackham emcp...@sulisconsultants.com writes:

Have a look at Guide for the EMC Directive 2004/108/EC.

Wrong clause, I think. The OP is looking for the 'one-off' provisions 
-clause 4.4 of the Guide and Article 13 of the Directive.

If each purpose-made tester is used only at one specific site, it seems 
to me that they qualify under those provisions. Note carefully what you 
have to say in the EMC Assessment documentation.
-- 
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK
Plural: data, criteria, phenomena. Singular: datum (different meaning: use
'data element' for a single item), criterion, phenomenon. 'Effect' is a noun,
'affect' is a verb (except in psychiatry).

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RE: [PSES] CE Testing for Test Equipment

[emc-p...@ieee.org]

Chris

 

Have a look at Guide for the EMC Directive 2004/108/EC.

 

http://ec.europa.eu/enterprise/sectors/electrical/files/emc_guide__updated_20100208_v3_en.pdf
 

 

1.2.6 Products for own use

Where an apparatus is manufactured for own use, placing on the market is 
considered to take place at the moment of putting into service; the

obligation to comply with the Directive begins with first use.

 

Your product is required to comply with the EMC directive – you are not 
necessarily required to test it.

 

Your employer is also required to ensure that the product is safe when put into 
use...

 

Regards

Charlie

 

From: Chris Anderson (cmanderson) [mailto:cmander...@micron.com] 
Sent: 25 January 2011 17:57
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] CE Testing for Test Equipment

 

Experts,

 

My employer wants to ship some (less than ten) proprietary testers to one of 
our locations in Italy.  These will never be available on the open market and 
would be used on at the site they’re being shipped to.  I thought I had read 
somewhere that such items were exempt from EMC testing, but can’t find anything 
to confirm that suspicion.

 

I think this has been discussed previously, but searching the archives didn’t 
yield anything relevant and Google was not my friend with the various 
combinations of terms that I tried.

 

Thanks,

Chris

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CE Testing for Test Equipment

[emc-p...@ieee.org]

Experts,

 

My employer wants to ship some (less than ten) proprietary testers to one of 
our locations in Italy.  These will never be available on the open market and 
would be used on at the site they’re being shipped to.  I thought I had read 
somewhere that such items were exempt from EMC testing, but can’t find anything 
to confirm that suspicion.

 

I think this has been discussed previously, but searching the archives didn’t 
yield anything relevant and Google was not my friend with the various 
combinations of terms that I tried.

 

Thanks,

Chris

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Re: Immunity Test Equipment

[emc-p...@ieee.org]

In message 
AANLkTimiZxvsaRFOE_mngWmT-kCFQr1Hm3=wv0vi6...@mail.gmail.com, dated 
Mon, 16 Aug 2010, Grace Lin graceli...@gmail.com writes:

It seems 61000-4-3 and 61000-4-6 have not been revised for the last 
three years. 

You can get more information from the IEC web site. Go to 'web store 
search' and enter '61000-4-3'. that gets you a list of all versions, 
with the newest one at the top. You will see it has been amended twice 
and the latest version dates from April this year.

If you scroll down, you will se 'Stability date 2011'. This means that 
it won't be changed before 2011, and is actually inconsistent with the 
latest amendment being dated 2010, so I don't believe it.

A similar search for 61000-4-6 shows that the latest edition is dated 
2008-10, and no Stability Date is given.

There is another route to information. If, from the front page, you 
click on 'TC Dashboard', you get an input page that requires you to know 
the committee number. It is possible to get this from the Webstore 
search; just below the title of the publication. Just enter 77b, no 
TC/SC.

That leads you to a page with numerous choices. Click on 'Work 
programme' and you will see that there is no current work on 61000-4-3 
but a revised or amended 61000-4-6 is expected to be published in 2013.

You will see that the latest draft document is 77B/624/CD and if you 
click on that, you see details that include the closing date for 
National Committee comments, which was March this year. Since it has 75 
pages, it's a full revision, not an amendment.

You can't see the document, but if you go back to the 'choices' page and 
click on 'Working Documents', you get a long list that includes the 
result of the CD circulation, 77B/635/CC. Again, you can't see it, but I 
can tell you that there were very many comments, so it is likely that 
the 2013 date for a new edition is realistic.

Are they going to be revised?  If yes, any idea what would be changed 
(test frequency, instrument specification requirment, etc.?)

There is strong resistance to changing anything that introduces more 
testing or requires costly changes to test equipment, without very solid 
justification.

I hope the guide to the IEC web site is useful.
-- 
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK
If at first you don't succeed, delegate.
But I support unbloated email http://www.asciiribbon.org/

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Immunity Test Equipment

[emc-p...@ieee.org]

Dear Members,
 
I need your help to complete my test equipment for immunity measurement per EU
CE.  In my workplace, I have a KeyTeck EMCPro Plus to cover 61000-4-4,
61000-4-5, 61000-4-8, 61000-4-11 tests.  I will need equipment for 61000-4-3
(10V @ 3m) and 61000-4-6, including expensive RF power amplifier and signal
generator(s).
 
I did a quick Google search.  It seems 61000-4-3 and 61000-4-6 have not been
revised for the last three years.  Are they going to be revised?  If yes, any
idea what would be changed (test frequency, instrument specification
requirment, etc.?)
 
What is your suggestion for the antennas for 61000-4-3 measurement?
 
Thank you and look forward to hearing from you.
 
Best regards,
Grace
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Selection of Fault Loop Impedance test equipment

[emc-p...@ieee.org]

I have a client who is looking to purchase a fault loop impedance test  
set meeting EN 61557 to conduct EN 60204-1 Clause 18.2 fault loop  
impedance tests. Anyone have any specific models or makes they prefer  
for this application?

-- 
Doug Nix, A.Sc.T.
IEEE PSES Toronto Chapter   
Toronto Section, Ontario, Canada

d...@ieee.org
mobile (519) 729-5704
fax (519) 653-1318

Find me LinkedIn at http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougnix

Fostering Technological Innovation and Excellence for the Benefit of  
Humanity.

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RE: [PSES] Mains harmonics flicker test equipment

[emc-p...@ieee.org]

To be clear:

EUT's which DO NOT meet the requirements when measured using test equipment
compliant with EN61000-4-7:2002 and DO meet the requirements when measured
using test equipment compliant with EN61000-4-7:1991 meet all applicable
requirements for sale in the EU.

Until EN61000-4-7 is updated the transitional period is still in effect. 
Inter-harmonics measurements are NOT required to be in compliance with the
current versions EN61000-3-2 and EN61000-3-12.



Regards,

Dave Spencer



From: emc-p...@ieee.org on behalf of Jon Francis
Sent: Fri 11/6/2009 1:31 PM
To: Kunde, Brian; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] Mains harmonics  flicker test equipment
 
All, this may help with the original question about test equipment:

Summary: 
Changes to  61000-3-2 are normally easily updated in the software of the
measurement equipment.
When a revised 61000-4-7 was published in 2002 it required significant
measurement equipment hardware changes. 
Check that you measurement equipement conforms to EN61000-4-7:2002 and
includes inter-harmonic grouping.

Detail:
61000-3-2 describes limits and how those limits are applied to harmonic
measurements.
Changes to 61000-3-2 do not normally mean that the measurement equipment
hardware needs to be changed, just it's limit checking software.

However, Annex B of 61000-3-2 states: The requirements for measurement
equipment are defined in IEC 61000-4-7
61000-4-7 describes exactly how the harmonic measurements must be made in
terms of measurement techniques, equipment and measurement uncertainty.

Now EN61000-4-7 2002 is very different to the previous version in that it
describes in great detail the requirement to measure inter-harmonics at 5Hz
intervals. (50,55,60,65... instead of 50, 100,150 Hz...) The inter-harmonics
are then grouped into the normal 50,100, 150Hz intervals such that the
limits of 61000-3-2 can be applied as usual.
This had a big impact on the measurement hardware because 10 times the
processing is required in the same real-time duration (200ms).
There is confusion because a small clause in the 2002 version states: The use
of existing measuring instruments based upon the requirements given in IEC
61000-4-7 (1991) continues to be permitted until the next revision of this
standard.
It can be argued that this clause still applies, but:
CENELEC list EN61000-4-7 2002 as current with a DoW (of previous version) of
2005-10-01.
CENELEC list EN61000-4-7:1993 as Replaced / Withdrawn
EN61000-4-7:1993 is no longer available from the BSI website for example.
(Listed as withdrawn).

So to be up to date check your measurements are to EN61000-4-7 2002 and
include inter-harmonic groups. 

Small caution:
Because the inter-harmonics are grouped before checking against the limits of
61000-3-2 there is very little difference in the format of the displays and
reports that you will see when making measurements.
The actual measurements can be significantly different however. Products where
current is drawn asynchronously of the ac line show significant measurement
differences. A laser printer is a good example of this because it carries out
all its principle functions, like moving paper, with no connection to the
input line frequency and drawing significant current at inter-harmonic
frequencies.
Good manufacturers will supply evidence of the inter-harmonic grouping in
action in the form of third-part calibration data.

Jon from Voltech.



From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com]
Sent: 01 October 2009 18:13
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Mains harmonics  flicker test equipment


Ian,
 
If you already have such equipment, a quick call or email to the manufacturer
should answer your question specific to your equipment.  Our equipment is from
California Instruments and every couple years we ship our entire system
(including the computer) to them for upgrades, new software, and calibration.
They make sure we are testing to the latest requirements. They are the experts
and they sit on the committees so I let them unburden me with such details. 
 
The Other Brian
 
 
 

From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of
Gordon,Ian
Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 11:03 AM
To: IEEE EMC  SAFETY PSTC
Subject: Mains harmonics  flicker test equipment
 
All
Does anyone know whether the 2006 version of EN61000-3-2 and EN61000-3-3
require the use of different specification test equipment than that
required by the 2000 version of IEC 61000-3-2 and the 1994 version of
IEC 61000-3-3?
  
 
Ian Gordon 
 
  
 
 
 



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Re: [PSES] Mains harmonics flicker test equipment

[emc-p...@ieee.org]

In message 
9d04b979323dcd428297dda95108893e03557...@bb-corp-ex2.corp.cubic.cub, 
dated Fri, 6 Nov 2009, Price, Edward ed.pr...@cubic.com writes:


When millions of products that operate without any problem suddenly 
become non-compliant with a standard, doesn't that mean that the 
adjustment should be made to the standard and not the products?

It isn't as simple as that. However, the 'grandfather' clause in IEC/EN 
61000-4-7:2002 does just that, which is why throwing doubt on its 
validity is reprehensible.

The trouble with low-frequency conducted EMC is that when an EMC problem 
crops up, it can be extremely difficult and costly to fix it. And the 
*potential* to cause a problem has to be considered, as well as the 
current position.

For example, there seems to be no product in use at present that 
produces a significant interharmonic emission current within a certain 
band between 200 Hz and 250 Hz. But if such a product appears, it could 
disrupt automatic electricity meter tariff switching in a European 
country, affecting millions of people as well as the electricity 
suppliers.

Many of these EMC problems that do occur are very localized, so 
wide-area surveys report that 'all is well', but smoke is coming out of 
the system in just a few places.

The situation worsens at higher frequencies, because of the high 
voltages that can be developed across inductors, in the supply system 
and in load equipment, and the high currents that can flow in capacitors 
in load equipment. The emission spectrum of large variable-speed drives 
can extend well beyond 9 kHz, and for smaller 'switching' products, 10 
MHz is not the limit.

In summary, we DO need interharmonic emission control, it's getting 
there that is so 'fascinating'.
-- 
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK
Help stamp out intolerance!

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RE: [PSES] Mains harmonics flicker test equipment

[emc-p...@ieee.org]

 -Original Message-
 From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of John
 Woodgate
 Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 10:59 AM
 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
 Subject: Re: [PSES] Mains harmonics  flicker test equipment
 
 In message
 The change from the 1991 to 2002 editions was to widen the measurement
 bandwidth by a factor of TEN times. No equipment manufacturer realised
 the implications; millions of products that operate without any
problem
 on the network fail the '2002' interharmonic grouping test.
 
 All the electricity suppliers represented on the IEC committee are
 content for the 'grandfather' clause to remain until a satisfactory
 solution is found. Intensive work is being carried out continuously to
 find that solution.
 --
 OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
 John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK
 Help stamp out intolerance!



When millions of products that operate without any problem suddenly
become non-compliant with a standard, doesn't that mean that the
adjustment should be made to the standard and not the products?


Ed Price
ed.pr...@cubic.com WB6WSN
NARTE Certified EMC Engineer
Electromagnetic Compatibility Lab
Cubic Defense Applications
San Diego, CA  USA
858-505-2780
Military  Avionics EMC Is Our Specialty

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Re: [PSES] Mains harmonics flicker test equipment

[emc-p...@ieee.org]

In message 
c0cfaa175de2c245a4acc27e5a896034045...@voltech-uk.voltech.co.uk, dated 
Fri, 6 Nov 2009, Jon Francis jfran...@voltech.co.uk writes:

There is confusion because a small clause

What do you mean, 'small'? Size doesn't matter, in this context anyway. 
Your comment seems likely to increase, or even generate, confusion.

in the 2002 version states: The use of existing measuring instruments 
based upon the requirements given in IEC 61000-4-7 (1991) continues to 
be permitted until the next revision of this standard. It can be 
argued that this clause still applies,

It VERY DEFINITELY DOES. Let there be NO rumours that it doesn't.
The change from the 1991 to 2002 editions was to widen the measurement 
bandwidth by a factor of TEN times. No equipment manufacturer realised 
the implications; millions of products that operate without any problem 
on the network fail the '2002' interharmonic grouping test.

All the electricity suppliers represented on the IEC committee are 
content for the 'grandfather' clause to remain until a satisfactory 
solution is found. Intensive work is being carried out continuously to 
find that solution.
-- 
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK
Help stamp out intolerance!

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RE: [PSES] Mains harmonics flicker test equipment

[emc-p...@ieee.org]

All, this may help with the original question about test equipment:

Summary: 
Changes to  61000-3-2 are normally easily updated in the software of the
measurement equipment.
When a revised 61000-4-7 was published in 2002 it required significant
measurement equipment hardware changes. 
Check that you measurement equipement conforms to EN61000-4-7:2002 and
includes inter-harmonic grouping.

Detail:
61000-3-2 describes limits and how those limits are applied to harmonic
measurements.
Changes to 61000-3-2 do not normally mean that the measurement equipment
hardware needs to be changed, just it's limit checking software.

However, Annex B of 61000-3-2 states: The requirements for measurement
equipment are defined in IEC 61000-4-7
61000-4-7 describes exactly how the harmonic measurements must be made in
terms of measurement techniques, equipment and measurement uncertainty.

Now EN61000-4-7 2002 is very different to the previous version in that it
describes in great detail the requirement to measure inter-harmonics at 5Hz
intervals. (50,55,60,65... instead of 50, 100,150 Hz...) The inter-harmonics
are then grouped into the normal 50,100, 150Hz intervals such that the
limits of 61000-3-2 can be applied as usual.
This had a big impact on the measurement hardware because 10 times the
processing is required in the same real-time duration (200ms).
There is confusion because a small clause in the 2002 version states: The use
of existing measuring instruments based upon the requirements given in IEC
61000-4-7 (1991) continues to be permitted until the next revision of this
standard.
It can be argued that this clause still applies, but:
CENELEC list EN61000-4-7 2002 as current with a DoW (of previous version) of
2005-10-01.
CENELEC list EN61000-4-7:1993 as Replaced / Withdrawn
EN61000-4-7:1993 is no longer available from the BSI website for example.
(Listed as withdrawn).

So to be up to date check your measurements are to EN61000-4-7 2002 and
include inter-harmonic groups. 

Small caution:
Because the inter-harmonics are grouped before checking against the limits of
61000-3-2 there is very little difference in the format of the displays and
reports that you will see when making measurements.
The actual measurements can be significantly different however. Products where
current is drawn asynchronously of the ac line show significant measurement
differences. A laser printer is a good example of this because it carries out
all its principle functions, like moving paper, with no connection to the
input line frequency and drawing significant current at inter-harmonic
frequencies.
Good manufacturers will supply evidence of the inter-harmonic grouping in
action in the form of third-part calibration data.

Jon from Voltech.



From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com]
Sent: 01 October 2009 18:13
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Mains harmonics  flicker test equipment


Ian,
 
If you already have such equipment, a quick call or email to the manufacturer
should answer your question specific to your equipment.  Our equipment is from
California Instruments and every couple years we ship our entire system
(including the computer) to them for upgrades, new software, and calibration.
They make sure we are testing to the latest requirements. They are the experts
and they sit on the committees so I let them unburden me with such details. 
 
The Other Brian
 
 
 

From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of
Gordon,Ian
Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 11:03 AM
To: IEEE EMC  SAFETY PSTC
Subject: Mains harmonics  flicker test equipment
 
All
Does anyone know whether the 2006 version of EN61000-3-2 and EN61000-3-3
require the use of different specification test equipment than that
required by the 2000 version of IEC 61000-3-2 and the 1994 version of
IEC 61000-3-3?
  
 
Ian Gordon 
 
  
 
 
 



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Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that
URL.
 
Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions

Re: Mains harmonics flicker test equipment

[emc-p...@ieee.org]

In message 200910092048.n99kmbq0020...@hormel9.ieee.org, Mark Briggs 
mbri...@elliottlabs.com writes
While I agree that they are product standards - if a more appropriate 
product standard contains overlapping requirements then (my opinion) 
that standard would take precedence.

Correct, but ...

 This is why I think that if your product falls under the scope of a 
product-specific standard such as EN 61326 and EN 300 386 that 
addresses AC current harmonics and voltage fluctuations you do not need 
to apply the 61000-3-2,3 standards as listed in the OJ, only the 
requirements of your more-specific product standard.

... there are no such standards, and CENELEC would need an infinite 
amount of convincing before allowing such a conflicting provision in a 
product standard.
-- 
This is my travelling signature, adding no superfluous mass.
John M Woodgate

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to
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David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com

RE: Mains harmonics flicker test equipment

[emc-p...@ieee.org]

Bob - 

While I agree that they are product standards - if a more appropriate
product standard contains overlapping requirements then (my opinion) that
standard would take precedence.  This is why I think that if your product
falls under the scope of a product-specific standard such as EN 61326 and EN
300 386 that addresses AC current harmonics and voltage fluctuations you do
not need to apply the 61000-3-2,3 standards as listed in the OJ, only the
requirements of your more-specific product standard.

Mark



From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of
rehel...@mmm.com
Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 1:02 AM
To: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: RE: Mains harmonics  flicker test equipment

To make matters a bit more complicated, EN 61000-3-2 and EN 61000-3-3 are
Product Family Standards in their own right (says so on page 5 of both
standards). The family class being I suppose equipment with input current
16 A or less. In this case the standard in the OJ applies no matter what.

Bob Heller
3M EMC Laboratory, 76-1-01
St. Paul, MN 55107-1208
Tel:  651- 778-6336
Fax:  651-778-6252




 

  From:   Spencer, David H david.spen...@xerox.com

 

  To: Mark Briggs mbri...@elliottlabs.com, emc-p...@ieee.org

 

  Date:   10/02/2009 06:48 PM

 

  Subject:RE: Mains harmonics  flicker test equipment

 

  Sent by:emc-p...@ieee.org

 






Mark,
I agree with you.  Possibly I'm making a mountian out of a mole-hill.

My question seems to be that if a standard is listed in the OJ that must
take precedence over an older similar standard within the product specific
standard.

In this case the scope of EN 61000-3-2:, is products rated less than or
equal to 16A.   Regardless of any product specific standard that criteria
takes precedence.

EN61000-3-2: is not a generic standard.  It is a requirement for all
products that connect to low voltage distribution systems in the EU.

Dave



From: emc-p...@ieee.org on behalf of Mark Briggs
Sent: Fri 10/2/2009 7:18 PM
To: Spencer, David H; emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: RE: Mains harmonics  flicker test equipment

David -

This has been my take on this issue: If your product-specific standard
addresses a phenomenon that is also addressed in a generic standard then
you
do not have to apply that generic standard.

When the product specific standard uses a generic or product standard as a
measurement standard you use that referenced standard just as you would any
other basic standard (e.g. the EN 61000-4-x series of standards, none of
which are listed in the OJ).  You only concern yourself with testing to the
version referenced by your product standard.  In this particular case we
are
talking about EN 61000-3-2 and -3, but the list of product/generic
standards
that may be in the OJ but that are also used as basic standards includes EN
55022 and EN 55011.

For example:
EN 300 386 and EN 61326 both address emissions related to AC current
harmonics, therefore I do not have to use EN 61000-3-2 (the generic
standard for AC current harmonics) as listed in the OJ, or reference it on
the DoC.  This assumes that I have applied the requirements for AC current
harmonics detailed in the product standard using the methods referenced
within my product standard.

EN 55022, on the other hand, does not address emissions related to AC
current harmonics so I need to apply the EN 61000-3-2 standard as
referenced
in the OJ, and list both standards on my DoC.


Mark




From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Spencer,
David H
Sent: Friday, October 02, 2009 3:11 PM
To: ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen; John Woodgate;
emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: RE: Mains harmonics  flicker test equipment

Gert,

I'm not a legal expert by any means. However, if a product is placed on the
market in the EU and accompanied with a DoC, isn't it implied that the
product meets the legal requirements specified by CENELEC?
If CENELEC specifies that a product class must meet a given standard (EN or
IEC), doesn't that make it legally binding if that product is place on the
market?  The standard being the de facto binding document that the DoC is
based upon.

I am still a bit confused as to why if in the OJ, a give standard is
referenced, that an older standard may be applied if referenced by a
product
specific standard?  I could give hypothetical examples; yet, it seems at
though anything listed within the OJ takes legal precedence, regardless of
additional product specific requirements.

I should point out that in EN61326-1:2006, Annex ZA (NORM), Note 2
specifies
EN61000-3-2:2006 as the applicable standard, though it's not in Section 2.

Regards,

Dave Spencer
Xerox Corp.






From: emc-p...@ieee.org on behalf of ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert
Gremmen
Sent: Fri 10/2/2009 3:36 PM
To: John Woodgate; emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: RE: Mains harmonics  flicker test equipment

John

RE: Mains harmonics flicker test equipment

[emc-p...@ieee.org]

To make matters a bit more complicated, EN 61000-3-2 and EN 61000-3-3 are
Product Family Standards in their own right (says so on page 5 of both
standards). The family class being I suppose equipment with input current
16 A or less. In this case the standard in the OJ applies no matter what.

Bob Heller
3M EMC Laboratory, 76-1-01
St. Paul, MN 55107-1208
Tel:  651- 778-6336
Fax:  651-778-6252
===



  
  
  From:   Spencer, David H david.spen...@xerox.com
  
  
  
  To: Mark Briggs mbri...@elliottlabs.com, emc-p...@ieee.org
  
  
  
  Date:   10/02/2009 06:48 PM 
  
  
  
  Subject:RE: Mains harmonics  flicker test equipment
  
  
  
  Sent by:emc-p...@ieee.org 
  
  
  





Mark,
I agree with you.  Possibly I'm making a mountian out of a mole-hill.

My question seems to be that if a standard is listed in the OJ that must
take precedence over an older similar standard within the product specific
standard.

In this case the scope of EN 61000-3-2:, is products rated less than or
equal to 16A.   Regardless of any product specific standard that criteria
takes precedence.

EN61000-3-2: is not a generic standard.  It is a requirement for all
products that connect to low voltage distribution systems in the EU.

Dave



From: emc-p...@ieee.org on behalf of Mark Briggs
Sent: Fri 10/2/2009 7:18 PM
To: Spencer, David H; emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: RE: Mains harmonics  flicker test equipment

David -

This has been my take on this issue: If your product-specific standard
addresses a phenomenon that is also addressed in a generic standard then
you
do not have to apply that generic standard.

When the product specific standard uses a generic or product standard as a
measurement standard you use that referenced standard just as you would any
other basic standard (e.g. the EN 61000-4-x series of standards, none of
which are listed in the OJ).  You only concern yourself with testing to the
version referenced by your product standard.  In this particular case we
are
talking about EN 61000-3-2 and -3, but the list of product/generic
standards
that may be in the OJ but that are also used as basic standards includes EN
55022 and EN 55011.

For example:
EN 300 386 and EN 61326 both address emissions related to AC current
harmonics, therefore I do not have to use EN 61000-3-2 (the generic
standard for AC current harmonics) as listed in the OJ, or reference it on
the DoC.  This assumes that I have applied the requirements for AC current
harmonics detailed in the product standard using the methods referenced
within my product standard.

EN 55022, on the other hand, does not address emissions related to AC
current harmonics so I need to apply the EN 61000-3-2 standard as
referenced
in the OJ, and list both standards on my DoC.


Mark




From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Spencer,
David H
Sent: Friday, October 02, 2009 3:11 PM
To: ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen; John Woodgate;
emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: RE: Mains harmonics  flicker test equipment

Gert,

I'm not a legal expert by any means. However, if a product is placed on the
market in the EU and accompanied with a DoC, isn't it implied that the
product meets the legal requirements specified by CENELEC?
If CENELEC specifies that a product class must meet a given standard (EN or
IEC), doesn't that make it legally binding if that product is place on the
market?  The standard being the de facto binding document that the DoC is
based upon.

I am still a bit confused as to why if in the OJ, a give standard is
referenced, that an older standard may be applied if referenced by a
product
specific standard?  I could give hypothetical examples; yet, it seems at
though anything listed within the OJ takes legal precedence, regardless of
additional product specific requirements.

I should point out that in EN61326-1:2006, Annex ZA (NORM), Note 2
specifies
EN61000-3-2:2006 as the applicable standard, though it's

Re: Mains harmonics flicker test equipment

[emc-p...@ieee.org]

In message jt+f0xbjzrxkf...@jmwa.demon.co.uk, dated Sat, 3 Oct 2009, 
John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk writes:


Nevertheless, it is so. Look back up the thread to the article by Brian 
Jones. He is the Secretary of CLC/TC210, so you can rely on that 
article.

I should have added that of course that article is not an **official** 
statement from the Secretary of TC210.
-- 
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
Things can always get better. But that's not the only option.
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

-

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For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  j.bac...@ieee.org
David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com

Re: Mains harmonics flicker test equipment

[emc-p...@ieee.org]

In message 
78eac2d97114034eb62aaa10fcc2510609d2d...@usa7061ms01.na.xerox.net, 
dated Fri, 2 Oct 2009, Spencer, David H david.spen...@xerox.com 
writes:

My question seems to be that if a standard is listed in the OJ that 
must take precedence over an older similar standard within the product 
specific standard.

It doesn't. See the article by Brian Jones.
-- 
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
Things can always get better. But that's not the only option.
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to
emc-p...@ieee.org

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  j.bac...@ieee.org
David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com

Re: Mains harmonics flicker test equipment

[emc-p...@ieee.org]

In message 200910022318.n92niuh4012...@hormel9.ieee.org, dated Fri, 2 
Oct 2009, Mark Briggs mbri...@elliottlabs.com writes:

This has been my take on this issue: If your product-specific standard 
addresses a phenomenon that is also addressed in a generic standard 
then you do not have to apply that generic standard.

Correct; product and product-family standards take precedence over the 
Generics, but every effort is required on the part of the 
standards-makers to avoid any unjustified differences.

When the product specific standard uses a generic or product standard 
as a measurement standard you use that referenced standard just as you 
would any other basic standard (e.g. the EN 61000-4-x series of 
standards, none of which are listed in the OJ).  You only concern 
yourself with testing to the version referenced by your product 
standard.  In this particular case we are talking about EN 61000-3-2 
and -3, but the list of product/generic standards that may be in the OJ 
but that are also used as basic standards includes EN 55022 and EN 55011.

Correct, but

For example:
EN 300 386 and EN 61326 both address emissions related to AC current 
harmonics, therefore I do not have to use EN 61000-3-2 (the generic 
standard for AC current harmonics)

 61000-3-2, -3, -11 and -12 are actually product-family standards, 
the 'family' being everything intended to be connected to the public 
mains supply.

as listed in the OJ, or reference it on the DoC.  This assumes that I 
have applied the requirements for AC current harmonics detailed in the 
product standard using the methods referenced within my product 
standard.

Correct.

EN 55022, on the other hand, does not address emissions related to AC 
current harmonics so I need to apply the EN 61000-3-2 standard as 
referenced in the OJ, and list both standards on my DoC.

Correct.
-- 
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
Things can always get better. But that's not the only option.
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to
emc-p...@ieee.org

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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Re: Mains harmonics flicker test equipment

[emc-p...@ieee.org]

In message 
78eac2d97114034eb62aaa10fcc2510609d2d...@usa7061ms01.na.xerox.net, 
dated Fri, 2 Oct 2009, Spencer, David H david.spen...@xerox.com 
writes:

I'm not a legal expert by any means. However, if a product is placed on 
the market in the EU and accompanied with a DoC, isn't it implied that 
the product meets the legal requirements specified by CENELEC?

I think Mr. Gremmen is being 'strictly legal'. CENELEC specifies 
requirements but the legal aspect is a matter for the Commission.

If CENELEC specifies that a product class must meet a given standard 
(EN or IEC),

... but it doesn't, and can't; not even the Directive does that.

 doesn't that make it legally binding if that product is place on the 
market?  The standard being the de facto binding document that the DoC 
is based upon.

That is probably true, because the DoC is a legal declaration, and if it 
is untrue, an offence has been committed.

I am still a bit confused as to why if in the OJ, a give standard is 
referenced, that an older standard may be applied if referenced by a 
product specific standard?

Nevertheless, it is so. Look back up the thread to the article by Brian 
Jones. He is the Secretary of CLC/TC210, so you can rely on that 
article.

I could give hypothetical examples; yet, it seems at though anything 
listed within the OJ takes legal precedence, regardless of additional 
product specific requirements.

It is a paradox, indeed, but the Commission can't amend a reference in a 
standard by  publishing the number of a newer version of the referenced 
standard in the OJ. However, many standards that are referenced in EMC 
product standards are not notified in the OJ, such as the Basic 
standards.

I should point out that in EN61326-1:2006, Annex ZA (NORM), Note 2 
specifies EN61000-3-2:2006 as the applicable standard, though it's not 
in Section 2.

Annex ZA takes precedence over Clause 2.
-- 
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
Things can always get better. But that's not the only option.
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to
emc-p...@ieee.org

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL.

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Instructions:  http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html
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For help, send mail to the list administrators:
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Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  j.bac...@ieee.org
David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com

RE: Mains harmonics flicker test equipment

[emc-p...@ieee.org]

Mark,
I agree with you.  Possibly I'm making a mountian out of a mole-hill.

My question seems to be that if a standard is listed in the OJ that must take
precedence over an older similar standard within the product specific standard.

In this case the scope of EN 61000-3-2:, is products rated less than or
equal to 16A.   Regardless of any product specific standard that criteria
takes precedence.

EN61000-3-2: is not a generic standard.  It is a requirement for all
products that connect to low voltage distribution systems in the EU.

Dave



From: emc-p...@ieee.org on behalf of Mark Briggs
Sent: Fri 10/2/2009 7:18 PM
To: Spencer, David H; emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: RE: Mains harmonics  flicker test equipment
 
David - 

This has been my take on this issue: If your product-specific standard
addresses a phenomenon that is also addressed in a generic standard then you
do not have to apply that generic standard.   

When the product specific standard uses a generic or product standard as a
measurement standard you use that referenced standard just as you would any
other basic standard (e.g. the EN 61000-4-x series of standards, none of
which are listed in the OJ).  You only concern yourself with testing to the
version referenced by your product standard.  In this particular case we are
talking about EN 61000-3-2 and -3, but the list of product/generic standards
that may be in the OJ but that are also used as basic standards includes EN
55022 and EN 55011.

For example:
EN 300 386 and EN 61326 both address emissions related to AC current
harmonics, therefore I do not have to use EN 61000-3-2 (the generic
standard for AC current harmonics) as listed in the OJ, or reference it on
the DoC.  This assumes that I have applied the requirements for AC current
harmonics detailed in the product standard using the methods referenced
within my product standard.

EN 55022, on the other hand, does not address emissions related to AC
current harmonics so I need to apply the EN 61000-3-2 standard as referenced
in the OJ, and list both standards on my DoC.


Mark




From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Spencer,
David H
Sent: Friday, October 02, 2009 3:11 PM
To: ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen; John Woodgate;
emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: RE: Mains harmonics  flicker test equipment

Gert,

I'm not a legal expert by any means. However, if a product is placed on the
market in the EU and accompanied with a DoC, isn't it implied that the
product meets the legal requirements specified by CENELEC?
If CENELEC specifies that a product class must meet a given standard (EN or
IEC), doesn't that make it legally binding if that product is place on the
market?  The standard being the de facto binding document that the DoC is
based upon.

I am still a bit confused as to why if in the OJ, a give standard is
referenced, that an older standard may be applied if referenced by a product
specific standard?  I could give hypothetical examples; yet, it seems at
though anything listed within the OJ takes legal precedence, regardless of
additional product specific requirements.

I should point out that in EN61326-1:2006, Annex ZA (NORM), Note 2 specifies
EN61000-3-2:2006 as the applicable standard, though it's not in Section 2.

Regards,

Dave Spencer
Xerox Corp.






From: emc-p...@ieee.org on behalf of ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert
Gremmen
Sent: Fri 10/2/2009 3:36 PM
To: John Woodgate; emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: RE: Mains harmonics  flicker test equipment
 
John

Standards are private products, and there
should not be a legally reference in your
reply. Standards are binding agreements
between civil parties only, and private parties may
agree to use old standards.
If CENELEC states that a standard has been 
withdrawn, so what ? If the older standard is useful as
an agreement between parties, that's ok.


If the European Committee agrees with that is another story; the EC
might conclude that the docopocossed standard gives no
presumption of conformity anymore, and that opinion is reflected 
legally in the OJ only, regardless dow, dopocoposs or other dates.
In the case of EN 61326, being harmonized at date of application, 
referring to EN 61000-3-2:2000, gives presumption of compliance.
At the same time EN 61000-3-2:2006 (if harmonized at the same date)
gives presumption of compliance too.
The fault is in EN 61326-1:2006 standard, but such
Faults are not uncommon.

Again, IEC nor CENELEC create legally binding documents
(unless agreed upon by contract between parties).

Gert Gremmen



Van: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] Namens John Woodgate
Verzonden: vrijdag 2 oktober 2009 14:59
Aan: emc-p...@ieee.org
Onderwerp: Re: Mains harmonics  flicker test equipment

In message 
78eac2d97114034eb62aaa10fcc251060a8d8...@usa7061ms01.na.xerox.net, 
dated Fri, 2 Oct 2009, Spencer, David H david.spen...@xerox.com 
writes:

IF there was a dramatic change between the two,  for a  proper DoC 
would

RE: Mains harmonics flicker test equipment

[emc-p...@ieee.org]

David - 

This has been my take on this issue: If your product-specific standard
addresses a phenomenon that is also addressed in a generic standard then you
do not have to apply that generic standard.   

When the product specific standard uses a generic or product standard as a
measurement standard you use that referenced standard just as you would any
other basic standard (e.g. the EN 61000-4-x series of standards, none of
which are listed in the OJ).  You only concern yourself with testing to the
version referenced by your product standard.  In this particular case we are
talking about EN 61000-3-2 and -3, but the list of product/generic standards
that may be in the OJ but that are also used as basic standards includes EN
55022 and EN 55011.

For example:
EN 300 386 and EN 61326 both address emissions related to AC current
harmonics, therefore I do not have to use EN 61000-3-2 (the generic
standard for AC current harmonics) as listed in the OJ, or reference it on
the DoC.  This assumes that I have applied the requirements for AC current
harmonics detailed in the product standard using the methods referenced
within my product standard.

EN 55022, on the other hand, does not address emissions related to AC
current harmonics so I need to apply the EN 61000-3-2 standard as referenced
in the OJ, and list both standards on my DoC.


Mark




From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Spencer,
David H
Sent: Friday, October 02, 2009 3:11 PM
To: ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen; John Woodgate;
emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: RE: Mains harmonics  flicker test equipment

Gert,

I'm not a legal expert by any means. However, if a product is placed on the
market in the EU and accompanied with a DoC, isn't it implied that the
product meets the legal requirements specified by CENELEC?
If CENELEC specifies that a product class must meet a given standard (EN or
IEC), doesn't that make it legally binding if that product is place on the
market?  The standard being the de facto binding document that the DoC is
based upon.

I am still a bit confused as to why if in the OJ, a give standard is
referenced, that an older standard may be applied if referenced by a product
specific standard?  I could give hypothetical examples; yet, it seems at
though anything listed within the OJ takes legal precedence, regardless of
additional product specific requirements.

I should point out that in EN61326-1:2006, Annex ZA (NORM), Note 2 specifies
EN61000-3-2:2006 as the applicable standard, though it's not in Section 2.

Regards,

Dave Spencer
Xerox Corp.






From: emc-p...@ieee.org on behalf of ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert
Gremmen
Sent: Fri 10/2/2009 3:36 PM
To: John Woodgate; emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: RE: Mains harmonics  flicker test equipment
 
John

Standards are private products, and there
should not be a legally reference in your
reply. Standards are binding agreements
between civil parties only, and private parties may
agree to use old standards.
If CENELEC states that a standard has been 
withdrawn, so what ? If the older standard is useful as
an agreement between parties, that's ok.


If the European Committee agrees with that is another story; the EC
might conclude that the docopocossed standard gives no
presumption of conformity anymore, and that opinion is reflected 
legally in the OJ only, regardless dow, dopocoposs or other dates.
In the case of EN 61326, being harmonized at date of application, 
referring to EN 61000-3-2:2000, gives presumption of compliance.
At the same time EN 61000-3-2:2006 (if harmonized at the same date)
gives presumption of compliance too.
The fault is in EN 61326-1:2006 standard, but such
Faults are not uncommon.

Again, IEC nor CENELEC create legally binding documents
(unless agreed upon by contract between parties).

Gert Gremmen



Van: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] Namens John Woodgate
Verzonden: vrijdag 2 oktober 2009 14:59
Aan: emc-p...@ieee.org
Onderwerp: Re: Mains harmonics  flicker test equipment

In message 
78eac2d97114034eb62aaa10fcc251060a8d8...@usa7061ms01.na.xerox.net, 
dated Fri, 2 Oct 2009, Spencer, David H david.spen...@xerox.com 
writes:

IF there was a dramatic change between the two,  for a  proper DoC 
would both versions need to be applied?

No; the new version supersedes the old at the docopocoss, and legally 
the old EN (but not the old IEC version) ceases to exist.
-- 
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
Things can always get better. But that's not the only option.
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society
emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your
e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that
URL.

Website:  http

RE: Mains harmonics flicker test equipment

[emc-p...@ieee.org]

Gert,

I'm not a legal expert by any means. However, if a product is placed on the
market in the EU and accompanied with a DoC, isn't it implied that the product
meets the legal requirements specified by CENELEC?
If CENELEC specifies that a product class must meet a given standard (EN or
IEC), doesn't that make it legally binding if that product is place on the
market?  The standard being the de facto binding document that the DoC is
based upon.

I am still a bit confused as to why if in the OJ, a give standard is
referenced, that an older standard may be applied if referenced by a product
specific standard?  I could give hypothetical examples; yet, it seems at
though anything listed within the OJ takes legal precedence, regardless of
additional product specific requirements.

I should point out that in EN61326-1:2006, Annex ZA (NORM), Note 2 specifies
EN61000-3-2:2006 as the applicable standard, though it's not in Section 2.

Regards,

Dave Spencer
Xerox Corp.






From: emc-p...@ieee.org on behalf of ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert
Gremmen
Sent: Fri 10/2/2009 3:36 PM
To: John Woodgate; emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: RE: Mains harmonics  flicker test equipment
 
John

Standards are private products, and there
should not be a legally reference in your
reply. Standards are binding agreements
between civil parties only, and private parties may
agree to use old standards.
If CENELEC states that a standard has been 
withdrawn, so what ? If the older standard is useful as
an agreement between parties, that's ok.


If the European Committee agrees with that is another story; the EC
might conclude that the docopocossed standard gives no
presumption of conformity anymore, and that opinion is reflected 
legally in the OJ only, regardless dow, dopocoposs or other dates.
In the case of EN 61326, being harmonized at date of application, 
referring to EN 61000-3-2:2000, gives presumption of compliance.
At the same time EN 61000-3-2:2006 (if harmonized at the same date)
gives presumption of compliance too.
The fault is in EN 61326-1:2006 standard, but such
Faults are not uncommon.

Again, IEC nor CENELEC create legally binding documents
(unless agreed upon by contract between parties).

Gert Gremmen



Van: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] Namens John Woodgate
Verzonden: vrijdag 2 oktober 2009 14:59
Aan: emc-p...@ieee.org
Onderwerp: Re: Mains harmonics  flicker test equipment

In message 
78eac2d97114034eb62aaa10fcc251060a8d8...@usa7061ms01.na.xerox.net, 
dated Fri, 2 Oct 2009, Spencer, David H david.spen...@xerox.com 
writes:

IF there was a dramatic change between the two,  for a  proper DoC 
would both versions need to be applied?

No; the new version supersedes the old at the docopocoss, and legally 
the old EN (but not the old IEC version) ceases to exist.
-- 
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
Things can always get better. But that's not the only option.
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

-

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e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org

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David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com

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emc-p...@ieee.org

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott

Re: Mains harmonics flicker test equipment

[emc-p...@ieee.org]

In message FCA549BE3ECF9D4CB8CB8576837EA4890539B9@ZEUS.cetest.local, 
dated Fri, 2 Oct 2009, ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen 
g.grem...@cetest.nl writes:

Standards are private products, and there
should not be a legally reference in your
reply.

Go tell that to the Commissions lawyers. I'm only reporting what they 
have told CENELEC.
-- 
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
Things can always get better. But that's not the only option.
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to
emc-p...@ieee.org

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
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Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  j.bac...@ieee.org
David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com

RE: Mains harmonics flicker test equipment

[emc-p...@ieee.org]

John

Standards are private products, and there
should not be a legally reference in your
reply. Standards are binding agreements
between civil parties only, and private parties may
agree to use old standards.
If CENELEC states that a standard has been 
withdrawn, so what ? If the older standard is useful as
an agreement between parties, that's ok.


If the European Committee agrees with that is another story; the EC
might conclude that the docopocossed standard gives no
presumption of conformity anymore, and that opinion is reflected 
legally in the OJ only, regardless dow, dopocoposs or other dates.
In the case of EN 61326, being harmonized at date of application, 
referring to EN 61000-3-2:2000, gives presumption of compliance.
At the same time EN 61000-3-2:2006 (if harmonized at the same date)
gives presumption of compliance too.
The fault is in EN 61326-1:2006 standard, but such
Faults are not uncommon.

Again, IEC nor CENELEC create legally binding documents
(unless agreed upon by contract between parties).

Gert Gremmen



Van: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] Namens John Woodgate
Verzonden: vrijdag 2 oktober 2009 14:59
Aan: emc-p...@ieee.org
Onderwerp: Re: Mains harmonics  flicker test equipment

In message 
78eac2d97114034eb62aaa10fcc251060a8d8...@usa7061ms01.na.xerox.net, 
dated Fri, 2 Oct 2009, Spencer, David H david.spen...@xerox.com 
writes:

IF there was a dramatic change between the two,  for a  proper DoC 
would both versions need to be applied?

No; the new version supersedes the old at the docopocoss, and legally 
the old EN (but not the old IEC version) ceases to exist.
-- 
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
Things can always get better. But that's not the only option.
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society
emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your
e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that
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Instructions:  http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
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For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  j.bac...@ieee.org
David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com

-

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All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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Instructions:  http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
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Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  j.bac...@ieee.org
David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com

RE: Mains harmonics flicker test equipment

[emc-p...@ieee.org]

Everyone

This issue has been discussed in the CENELEC EMC committee, TC210, leading
to guidance that I expect will be published in an updated CENELEC Guide 25.
The relevant text reads as follows.


In some cases, a harmonised standard will make reference by dated reference
to another harmonised standard, each standard being listed in the OJEU for
the EMC Directive. In such cases, the specific edition of the referenced EN
is to be applied irrespective of whether that edition is currently listed in
the OJEU. This follows the principle that the primary standard provides the
requirements for the apparatus, and hence presumption of conformity in
respect of the EMC Directive as described in Annex ZZ of that standard (see
Annex 5 of this guide).  See also 2(e) below for the specific example where
the standards are based on international versions.



2(e) In some cases, a harmonised standard (described as the primary
standard below) may give a dated reference to another harmonised standard
(for example EN 61000-6-3:2007 makes reference to EN 55022:2006 for test
methods). It will be appreciated that the referenced standard is listed in
the OJEU in its own right, and the question arises as to whether the dated
reference, or the date of cessation of presumption of conformity given in
the OJEU list, should prevail.

The principle to be followed is that the dates given in Annex ZA of the
primary
product/product family/generic standard prevail. The committee responsible
for the
primary harmonised standard sets the total requirements, and this includes
the specific editions of referenced standards to be used.

The principle of the application of dated references is the same whether the
referenced standard is a basic standard or a product family standard.


It is expected that this text will be approved at the next Technical Board
meeting in November, and published shortly thereafter. 

Current versions of this Guide (and Guide 24) may be downloaded free of
charge at
http://www.cenelec.eu/Cenelec/CENELEC+in+action/Horizontal+areas/EMC/default
.htm 

The CENELEC website will show when the new editions of Guides 24 and 25 are
available.

Best wishes

Brian  

Brian Jones
EMC Consultant
Secretary CENELEC TC210





From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Spencer,
David H
Sent: 02 October 2009 13:10
To: John Woodgate; emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: RE: Mains harmonics  flicker test equipment

Somewhat  hypothetical Q:

In the case of EN61236-1  where the Harmonics and Flicker requirements
call out dated standards (EN61000-3-2:2000).  The Official Journal lists
EN61000-3-2:2006.

IF there was a dramatic change between the two,  for a  proper DoC
would both versions need to be applied? 

Regards

Dave



From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of John
Woodgate
Sent: Friday, October 02, 2009 5:20 AM
To: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: Re: Mains harmonics  flicker test equipment

In message 
2AA8A4298DECF8469C66C8F3A2B9589201E391AB@GB02QEX01PEDV27.rmhost1.local
, 
dated Fri, 2 Oct 2009, Gordon,Ian ian.gor...@edwardsvacuum.com 
writes:

By our product standard I do mean the one we cite on D of Cs issued 
by my employer. Whilst dated references should be updated the fact is 
that if they do refer to older versions of standards then so be it. 
That's why I acknowledge that when EN61326-1 goes through its next 
revision it probably will refer to later versions although because of 
the length of time taken to revise standards the dated references given

then they will probably be out of date as well.

That's what IEC is working on. There is a proposal that committee 
secretaries review all normative references (particularly in standards 
used in a regulatory context) annually to se if they need updating. I am

not describing the whole procedure because it's still under discussion, 
but steps will be taken in any system that is introduced to make the 
process as easy and swift as possible.
-- 
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
Things can always get better. But that's not the only option.
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society
emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your
e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that
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Instructions:  http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas emcp...@socal.rr.com
Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  j.bac...@ieee.org
David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
discussion list. To post

Re: Mains harmonics flicker test equipment

[emc-p...@ieee.org]

In message 01ca4363$feba83a0$fc2f8ae0$@com, dated Fri, 2 Oct 2009, 
Ronald R. Wellman rwell...@wellman.com writes:

However, the rule of thumb is to call out the standard referenced in 
the family standard because the family standard is the standard you are 
using to declare compliance to.

It's not a rule of thumb; it's correct procedure. Until the primary 
standard you are citing is updated, you MUST use the version of the 
reference standard it calls up. Because of this, the standards bodies 
had to agree to make the older versions still available.

A few months ago, an eagle-eyed assessor found a reference to a standard 
about 30 years old and demanded to see that the test house had a copy! 
They didn't, and the standard is being changed!
-- 
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
Things can always get better. But that's not the only option.
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to
emc-p...@ieee.org

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas emcp...@socal.rr.com
Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  j.bac...@ieee.org
David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com

RE: Mains harmonics flicker test equipment

[emc-p...@ieee.org]

If you are Class A, this is moot for harmonics and flicker. However, the
rule of thumb is to call out the standard referenced in the family standard
because the family standard is the standard you are using to declare
compliance to. Some people do this, others call out the latest standard. The
bottom line is what version of the standard did you test to. That should be
the standard referenced in your DoC.

Best regards,
Ron Wellman   


From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Spencer,
David H
Sent: Friday, October 02, 2009 5:10 AM
To: John Woodgate; emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: RE: Mains harmonics  flicker test equipment

Somewhat  hypothetical Q:

In the case of EN61236-1  where the Harmonics and Flicker requirements
call out dated standards (EN61000-3-2:2000).  The Official Journal lists
EN61000-3-2:2006.

IF there was a dramatic change between the two,  for a  proper DoC
would both versions need to be applied? 

Regards

Dave



From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of John
Woodgate
Sent: Friday, October 02, 2009 5:20 AM
To: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: Re: Mains harmonics  flicker test equipment

In message 
2AA8A4298DECF8469C66C8F3A2B9589201E391AB@GB02QEX01PEDV27.rmhost1.local
, 
dated Fri, 2 Oct 2009, Gordon,Ian ian.gor...@edwardsvacuum.com 
writes:

By our product standard I do mean the one we cite on D of Cs issued 
by my employer. Whilst dated references should be updated the fact is 
that if they do refer to older versions of standards then so be it. 
That's why I acknowledge that when EN61326-1 goes through its next 
revision it probably will refer to later versions although because of 
the length of time taken to revise standards the dated references given

then they will probably be out of date as well.

That's what IEC is working on. There is a proposal that committee 
secretaries review all normative references (particularly in standards 
used in a regulatory context) annually to se if they need updating. I am

not describing the whole procedure because it's still under discussion, 
but steps will be taken in any system that is introduced to make the 
process as easy and swift as possible.
-- 
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
Things can always get better. But that's not the only option.
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society
emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your
e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org

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Re: Mains harmonics flicker test equipment

[emc-p...@ieee.org]

In message 
78eac2d97114034eb62aaa10fcc251060a8d8...@usa7061ms01.na.xerox.net, 
dated Fri, 2 Oct 2009, Spencer, David H david.spen...@xerox.com 
writes:

IF there was a dramatic change between the two,  for a  proper DoC 
would both versions need to be applied?

No; the new version supersedes the old at the docopocoss, and legally 
the old EN (but not the old IEC version) ceases to exist.
-- 
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
Things can always get better. But that's not the only option.
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

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RE: Mains harmonics flicker test equipment

[emc-p...@ieee.org]

Somewhat  hypothetical Q:

In the case of EN61236-1  where the Harmonics and Flicker requirements
call out dated standards (EN61000-3-2:2000).  The Official Journal lists
EN61000-3-2:2006.

IF there was a dramatic change between the two,  for a  proper DoC
would both versions need to be applied? 

Regards

Dave



From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of John
Woodgate
Sent: Friday, October 02, 2009 5:20 AM
To: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: Re: Mains harmonics  flicker test equipment

In message 
2AA8A4298DECF8469C66C8F3A2B9589201E391AB@GB02QEX01PEDV27.rmhost1.local
, 
dated Fri, 2 Oct 2009, Gordon,Ian ian.gor...@edwardsvacuum.com 
writes:

By our product standard I do mean the one we cite on D of Cs issued 
by my employer. Whilst dated references should be updated the fact is 
that if they do refer to older versions of standards then so be it. 
That's why I acknowledge that when EN61326-1 goes through its next 
revision it probably will refer to later versions although because of 
the length of time taken to revise standards the dated references given

then they will probably be out of date as well.

That's what IEC is working on. There is a proposal that committee 
secretaries review all normative references (particularly in standards 
used in a regulatory context) annually to se if they need updating. I am

not describing the whole procedure because it's still under discussion, 
but steps will be taken in any system that is introduced to make the 
process as easy and swift as possible.
-- 
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
Things can always get better. But that's not the only option.
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

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Re: Mains harmonics flicker test equipment

[emc-p...@ieee.org]

In message 
2AA8A4298DECF8469C66C8F3A2B9589201E391AB@GB02QEX01PEDV27.rmhost1.local, 
dated Fri, 2 Oct 2009, Gordon,Ian ian.gor...@edwardsvacuum.com 
writes:

By our product standard I do mean the one we cite on D of Cs issued 
by my employer. Whilst dated references should be updated the fact is 
that if they do refer to older versions of standards then so be it. 
That's why I acknowledge that when EN61326-1 goes through its next 
revision it probably will refer to later versions although because of 
the length of time taken to revise standards the dated references given 
then they will probably be out of date as well.

That's what IEC is working on. There is a proposal that committee 
secretaries review all normative references (particularly in standards 
used in a regulatory context) annually to se if they need updating. I am 
not describing the whole procedure because it's still under discussion, 
but steps will be taken in any system that is introduced to make the 
process as easy and swift as possible.
-- 
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
Things can always get better. But that's not the only option.
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

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RE: Mains harmonics flicker test equipment

[emc-p...@ieee.org]

John
By our product standard I do mean the one we cite on D of Cs issued by
my employer.
Whilst dated references should be updated the fact is that if they do
refer to older versions of standards then so be it. That's why I
acknowledge that when EN61326-1 goes through its next revision it
probably will refer to later versions although because of the length of
time taken to revise standards the dated references given then they will
probably be out of date as well.


Ian Gordon

 




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Re: Mains harmonics flicker test equipment

[emc-p...@ieee.org]

In message 
2AA8A4298DECF8469C66C8F3A2B9589201E390AF@GB02QEX01PEDV27.rmhost1.local, 
dated Fri, 2 Oct 2009, Gordon,Ian ian.gor...@edwardsvacuum.com 
writes:

More specifically, our product standard EN61326-1:2006

Do you mean by 'our' that you are involved in the standards work on 
61326, or that you cite it on DoCs?

refers to the older versions of the harmonics and flicker standards and 
I am trying to determine whether we need to update our measurement 
equipment at this time. However I can see that when the product 
standard is revised (again!) we will probably have to do this.

If there are dated references in clause 2 of 61326, they should be 
updated to refer to the latest versions, regardless of whether that 
makes a difference or not. However, updating is essential only if there 
IS a difference.

Note that this applies to 61326 as a product EMC standard. For other 
types of standard, the relation between dated references and update 
requirements may be different. This is a developing subject within IEC.
-- 
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
Things can always get better. But that's not the only option.
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

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RE: Mains harmonics flicker test equipment

[emc-p...@ieee.org]

Brian et al
The trouble with asking the equipment manufacturer is that they will always
want to sell you a new piece of kit! 
More specifically, our product standard EN61326-1:2006 refers to the older
versions of the harmonics and flicker standards and I am trying to determine
whether we need to update our measurement equipment at this time. However I
can see that when the product standard is revised (again!) we will probably
have to do this.
 

Ian Gordon

 P Please consider the environment before printing this email. There are 10
types of people in this world: those that understand binary and those that
don't

 



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RE: Mains harmonics flicker test equipment

[emc-p...@ieee.org]

Ian,

 

If you already have such equipment, a quick call or email to the manufacturer
should answer your question specific to your equipment.  Our equipment is from
California Instruments and every couple years we ship our entire system
(including the computer) to them for upgrades, new software, and calibration.
They make sure we are testing to the latest requirements. They are the experts
and they sit on the committees so I let them unburden me with such details. 

 

The Other Brian

 

 

 



From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of

Gordon,Ian

Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 11:03 AM

To: IEEE EMC  SAFETY PSTC

Subject: Mains harmonics  flicker test equipment

 

All

Does anyone know whether the 2006 version of EN61000-3-2 and EN61000-3-3

require the use of different specification test equipment than that

required by the 2000 version of IEC 61000-3-2 and the 1994 version of

IEC 61000-3-3?

  

 

Ian Gordon 

 

  

 

 

 







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from opening this e-mail or attachments, whether or not

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_ 

LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential
information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by
mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you. 
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RE: Mains harmonics flicker test equipment

[emc-p...@ieee.org]

Ian,
The test equipment specifications for each are found in the Normative
References (section 2).

This is a bit tricky with EN61000-3-2: 2006,  the test equipment spec is
IEC 61000-4-7 (undated) which implies that you use the most current
version.
If you read the current version of IEC 61000-4-7: 2002,   7:
Transitional Period,  it allows the use of  IEC 61000-4-7:1991
Provided you document that the testing was performed using the older
standard.  The difference is the inclusion of interharmonics.

Regarding EN61000-3-3,  the current test equipment spec is EN61000-4-15:
1998 +A1:2003.   It replaced the older EN60868:1993.   The standard
seems to have been rewritten to include testing in 120V 60Hz systems.
The flickermeter response is unchanged.

Regards,

Dave Spencer




From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of
Gordon,Ian
Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 11:03 AM
To: IEEE EMC  SAFETY PSTC
Subject: Mains harmonics  flicker test equipment

All
Does anyone know whether the 2006 version of EN61000-3-2 and EN61000-3-3
require the use of different specification test equipment than that
required by the 2000 version of IEC 61000-3-2 and the 1994 version of
IEC 61000-3-3?
  

Ian Gordon 

  

 




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Mains harmonics flicker test equipment

[emc-p...@ieee.org]

All
Does anyone know whether the 2006 version of EN61000-3-2 and EN61000-3-3
require the use of different specification test equipment than that
required by the 2000 version of IEC 61000-3-2 and the 1994 version of
IEC 61000-3-3?
  

Ian Gordon 

  

 




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Re: EN61000-4-6 test equipment

[emc-p...@ieee.org]

Good day all,

I thought it prudent, as someone that knows the workings of the 
Schaffner 2070 very well, to just clarify a few things.

The Schaffner 2070 was designed back when CE was just coming to light. 
It was designed to fit a niche market, mainly where companies wanted a 
good feel products would be OK when formal compliance testing took 
place. It was never intended to be an instrument where the user could 
access the internal workings and control them independently from the 
capable ( for the time ) internal software.

As was mentioned, there is a way to access the internal workings of the 
machine, but this was meant for the factory and calibration labs since 
it could modify fundamental machine settings also.

HOWEVER, most importantly, the 2070 was replaced some time ago by an 
instrument more suited for the current and future market place: the NSG 
4070.

http://www.teseq.com/com/en/products_so
utions/emc_conducted_esd/conducted_rf_immunity/index.php?navid=11

This is a very capable instrument and should be used for any comparisons 
with other manufacturers. Please disregard the 2070.

The NSG 4070 is designed to be controlled by Compliance 3, making it 
very very powerful indeed.

Contact me off line if you would like to know more.

Sincerely,

Derek Walton
L F Research



michael.na...@emerson.com wrote:
 Bob,
  
 Point taken.
  
 I cannot comment on the NSG 2070, but I checked back at the CWS500 
 documentation and software.
  
 The proprietary software from EM-Test permits the use of calibration 
 files either stored in the unit or on the 
 controlling PC. A transfer of calibration data from the PC to the 
 CWS500 and back is possible.
  
 The software uses the calibration files stored on the PC and sets the 
 output level depending on the data
 stored in that file. This is more than just initiating the test, but 
 it does not look like a closed loop to me.
 Calibration can be performed either using the internal routine of the 
 CWS500 or using the software and
 an external Power Meter also controlled by the software.
  
 The command set published in the manual is certainly not complete. I 
 would like to see more as well.
  
 I will have to check with TILE on the next occasion.
  
 I agree with your approach of having complete control over all 
 parameters.
 But in this case I do not see a big difference between a solution 
 involving separate instruments
 and a solution putting those separate instruments in a bigger box. 
 Having all from the same manufacturer
 can help to simplify programming. SCPI would be a plus, but it is 
 still not common enough.
  
 Having an integrated solution for EN 61000-4-6 is good for standard 
 testing and if you have to deal with on-site
 testing (less equipment to haul).
 Using separate instruments is certainly more flexible, but means more 
 instruments to handle, calibrate etc.
  
 Best regards,
 Michael Nagel
  

 Michael Nagel
 Senior Staff EMC Test Engineer
 Embedded Computing

 Emerson Network Power
 T +49-89-9608-0
 F +49-89-9608-2376  
 michael.na...@emerson.com
 www.emersonnetworkpower.com/embeddedcomputing

 Emerson Network Power - Embedded Computing GmbH,
 Lilienthalstr. 15, D-85579 Neubiberg/Landkreis München, Deutschland / 
 Germany.
 Geschäftsführer Josef Wenzl, Amtsgericht München HRB 171431, 
 VAT/USt.-ID: DE 127472241

  
  

 
 *From:* Bob Richards [mailto:b...@toprudder.com]
 *Sent:* Donnerstag, 12. Februar 2009 19:36
 *To:* emc-p...@ieee.org; Nagel, Michael [NETPWR/EMBED/DE]
 *Subject:* RE: EN61000-4-6 test equipment

 Michael,
  
 I do believe that the C3 software can control the NSG instrument.  
 That would make sense, since Teseq certainly has access to the 
 proprietary command set. However, I don't know of any other software 
 that would be able to control it.  I contacted Teseq asking for the 
 commands so I could write software for the NSG2070 that could directly 
 control the frequency, output level, read the input port, etc, and all 
 they gave me were commands to initiate the test, level-setting 
 procedure, etc, but not directly control the internal instruments. I 
 was told they were only available to labs that perform calibrations of 
 the equipment. I was even told by someone on this list that there was 
 no way I would ever get the command descriptions that I wanted, since 
 those labs were required to sign a non-disclosure agreement.
  
 Are you sure that TILE has complete access to the CWS500, or only 
 access to the commands to initiate the tests? It appeared to me that 
 the software from EM Test only initiated and monitored the test, not 
 actually control it. However, I may be wrong.
  
 In either case, I was not able to find a published list of the full 
 command set for either instrument. AR, on the other hand, implies in 
 their ads that the internal instruments are separately controllable.
  
 My point, though, was to make sure that you