date:20050525

Re: [TruthTalk] Fond Farewells- Salvation

2005-05-25 Thread Dave Hansen





DAVEH: LOLHow can anybody misspell g's name!  ;-) 

 Ooops.sorry for the lack of substance in this post, JD.

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  
  
  Your only point of substance in this last response was the shame
you placed on me for misspelling 
  Gary's name. I continue to hope for more substantive responses
from you in the coming weeks. 
  
  Jd

  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  

  


-- 
~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
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Re: [TruthTalk] Fond Farewells- Salvation

2005-05-25 Thread Dave Hansen





DAVEH: To which TTer are you referring, g..  :-) 

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  
  
  what?you
envision afellowship with no warmth?
  
  
  
  
  
  
  


-- 
~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
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Re: [Bulk] Re: [TruthTalk] mormon angels. was: Dave uses Socratic Method of Teaching LDS doctrine on TT

2005-05-25 Thread Dave Hansen





DAVEH: Apparently many TTers want me to teach LDS theology on
TT, yet some wish to criticize me for complying with their wishes.
Seems like a no win situation, eh Lance.

Lance Muir wrote:

  Apparently there exists a 'collective' anticipation of your answer.

  
  
Yes, I am interested as well. Is this beleif found in
the BoM?

Blessings,

Christine

--- Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



  Actually, the problem I have is not with Dave
stating mormon beliefs,
especially when asked. It is his teaching mormon
doctrines, but denying that
he is doing so. I am for openest...but honesty, too.
  

  

-- 
~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~
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Re: [TruthTalk] Preach report

2005-05-25 Thread Ruben Israel




We can talk about our experiences in the "Puppet ministry"
Going to the Indy 500 Kevin?

Re: [TruthTalk] mormon angels. was: Dave uses Socratic Method of Teaching LDS doctrine on TT

2005-05-25 Thread Dave Hansen

DAVEH:  For what reason should I explain why/where you are wrong about 
my beliefs, Perry.  I don't mind explaining to those who really want to 
know what I believe, but in your case it seems your intention is to 
denigrate my beliefs. 

   You've stated that your mission (so to speak) is to discredit 
Mormonism.in effect meeting the definition of an anti-Mormon.  So 
for what reason would you want to query me about Mormonism, if it is not 
to denigrate that in which I believe?


   Along with that, you continue to disbelieve my stated reason for 
joining TT years ago.  You can believe as you wish, Perrybut if you 
effectively want to post that I am lying about my reasons for being 
here, then I see no particular reason to hand you the knife with which 
you intend to use to carve up my faith.


Charles Perry Locke wrote:

Actually, the problem I have is not with Dave stating mormon beliefs, 
especially when asked. It is his teaching mormon doctrines, but denying 
that he is doing so. I am for openest...but honesty, too.



Dave,

  If I am somewhat close, can you tell me the part I am wrong about? 
You always say if I want to know what mormons believe, ask a mormon...


Perry


From: Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] mormon angels. was: Dave uses Socratic 
Method of Teaching LDS doctrine on TT

Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 06:38:17 -0700



Charles Perry Locke wrote:


Dave,

  Christians consider angels and humans to be two distinct types of 
created beings.



DAVEH:  Yes, I understand that.  Yet, it seems Paul is telling us 
that it is difficult (if not impossible) to tell us (mortals) apart 
from angels.


Correct me if I am wrong, but don't mormons consider angels to be 
either pre-mortal or post-mortal humans? For example, don't mormons 
consider Michael (the archangel) also to have been a human at one 
point...was it Adam? Hasn't he also been considered to be the mormon 
god the father? So, basically, one being can be spirit, angel, 
human, or god at various times. Am I right on this?



DAVEH:  You are somewhat close.



Perry





--
~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [TruthTalk] mormon angels. was: Dave uses Socratic Method of Teaching LDS...

2005-05-25 Thread Dave Hansen





DAVEH: FWIW.I agree with what you explained below, Blaine. But
I've always thought LDS theology allows that Adam was a God in the
pre-mortal existence, inasmuch as he was one of the key players (as you
indicated below) who sat in on the planning sessions (so to speak) of
the plan of salvation, and then was a/the pivotal character in
implementing the gospel. Is that how you understand Adam's
role/status, Blaine? 

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  
  
  
  
  Blaine: I guess I just can't resist breaking into an
interesting conversation!! Perry you are wrong when you say Mormons
believe Adam was both God-the-Father and Michael in the
pre-existance. It is clear and consistent in all Mormon doctrinal
treatesies on this subject that 1) The man Adam was Michael the
archangel in the pre-existence, 2) that Michael was third in order of
authority in the pre-existence. Both the Father and the Son were above
Michael in authority. Michael was the executive of the will of the
Father and the Son, you might say.
  
  In a message dated 5/24/2005 8:01:49 AM Mountain Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  Dave,

 If I am "somewhat close", can you tell me the part I am wrong about?
You 
always say if I want to know what mormons believe, ask a mormon...

Perry

From: Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] mormon angels. was: Dave uses Socratic
Method of 
Teaching LDS doctrine on TT
Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 06:38:17 -0700



Charles Perry Locke wrote:

Dave,

 Christians consider angels and humans to be two distinct
types of 
created beings.

DAVEH: Yes, I understand that. Yet, it seems Paul is telling us
that it 
is difficult (if not impossible) to tell us (mortals) apart from
angels.

Correct me if I am wrong, but don't mormons consider angels to
be either 
pre-mortal or post-mortal humans? For example, don't mormons
consider 
Michael (the archangel) also to have been a human at one
point...was it 
Adam? Hasn't he also been considered to be the mormon god the
father? So, 
basically, one being can be spirit, angel, human, or god at
various times. 
Am I right on this?

DAVEH: You are somewhat close.


Perry
  
  
  

-- 
~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
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If you wish to receive
things I find interesting,
I maintain six email lists...
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[TruthTalk] Fond Farewells- Salvation

2005-05-25 Thread Judy Taylor

On Tue, 24 May 2005 22:44:36 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

In you statment below, you initiate
your "discussion" with falsehood -- the claim that I am confused
and you are not. Grade school combat tactics. Just
plain silly. Why did Bill leave -- and
probably Caroline and Debbie? They got of the tactic "win at all
costs." You , especially, have
potential, what with your eduational backgroudn (PhD and
all). But you argue like a school kid. "Here's
the probelm, John -- I am better than you." "Aaahh, no
you're not ?" "YES I AM AM !!!' " No you're
not." "Yes I am too."

Where would Bill, Caroline Debbie find such a
tactic? David M checks in sporadically and obviously
doesn't
have time to read a lot of what is posted to the
list. IMO they left because they probably felt that their
own
contribution was not appreciated as they would have
liked. And why do you go on and on about the Phd thing.
I never think about it and DavidM
never speaks of it. If he is smart - good for him but
he has never made me feel
any less. May be your own inferiority complex
JD and that wouldn't be from the Lord.

See the second grade tactic.? David
says "Oh, now I see the crux of the matter: I follow the Bible
andJohn doe not." Great response. Perhaps
intellectually challenging to some in your camp, but it is a response
that avoids the conflict, builds you up in your own eyes (and
Izzy's -- she will now say that I was defeat simply
because you said I was confused.)

InP3, you argue that you are in
the apostles teaching and I am not. You do not
teachjustification apart from obedience to law. You do not
teach Christ as a substitute for in terms of faith and righteousness.
You do not believe the law to be a "burden" although Peter felt this
way.

We've been over and over this thing about the law JD;
and your understanding is not in line with the whole counsel of God's Word.
The law is not bad and it is not our enemy. The ppl under the Old Covenant
were not able to keep it because of the weakness of
their flesh which weakness should be overridden by the power of the Holy Spirit in our lives under the New Covenant. If
you believe and teach that we can live in unbelief and unrighteousness as law
breakers because of Christ then you will have to cut some scriptures out of
the New Testament.

You think hell in somewhere near
Compton.You do not know the fdifference
between the old sacrifices and the new. You consider yourself an
apostles on a par with Paul and Peter !!! You tout the rationalism
of your thinking and call it enlightenment. I could go on
- or would you prefer discussing the
issue?

I think he does - I'm more concerned for the ones who
embrace this all encompassing doctrine from Anasthasius and Gregory of
Nyzanius (earliest seeds of the rcc) but even here you take the parts you
like
Why not embrace the Magisterial teachings and go for
it?

Dinner time. Look for Post II
in this series, coming to your house in the near
future.

JD
||

[TruthTalk] What is sin

2005-05-25 Thread Judy Taylor




Shameful? You have got to be kidding JD. 
Just what was done to the two from Canada that was shameful?
I'd call the slams against Christine's father and the 
continual slurs against her mental ability and character a much greater problem. 
What she writes is not taken seriously because she is 
DavidM's daughter and you never let her forget it for a
moment because of hisPhd and all 
that.Let's stop, count to ten and rethink this thing. 
jt

On Tue, 24 May 2005 22:48:41 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  
  
  Well, she sure won't get treated as shamefully as the two from 
  Canada - so you might be right. 
  From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  

  I'm betting two to one that Christine outlasts Debbie and Caroline put together.  :-) Izzy

Re: [TruthTalk] mormon angels. was: Dave uses Socratic Method of Teaching LDS...

2005-05-25 Thread Judy Taylor

Why does the Mormon Church mess with the Bible at
all? May just as well toss it for it loses all credibility in
the light of their prophetical voices and other
teachings. This stuff is occult. jt

On Tue, 24 May 2005 21:13:40 -0700 (PDT) Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:

Blaine says It is clear and consistent in all Mormon
doctrinal treatesies on this subject that 1) The man Adam

Tell Brigham, Taylor, Woodruff Cannon! You just can't trust them
prohets ya know.
Seems that many LDs for many years have been TROUBLED by who is who. But
don't you worry. just ignore the contradictions. repeat after me
"I know the church is true, I know the Church is true."

Spring 1895 General ConferenceWilford Woodruff Cease
troubling yourselvesabout who God is; who Adam is,
who Christ is, who Jehovah is. For heaven's sake, let these things alone. Why
trouble yourselves about these things? God has revealed himself andwhen
the 121st section of the Doctrine and Covenants is fulfilled, whether
there be ONE God or many Gods they will be revealed to the children
of men, as well as all thrones and dominions, principalities, and powers. Then
why trouble yourselves about these things? God is
God. Christ is Christ. The Holy Ghost is the Holy Ghost. That should be
enough for you and me to know. If we want to know anymore, wait
till we get where God is in person. I say this because we are troubled
every little while with inquiries from Elders anxious to know who God
is, who Christ is, and who Adam is.
I say to the Elders of Israel, stop this. Humble yourselves
before the Lord; seek for light, for truth, and for a knowledge of the common
things of the Kingdom of God. The Lord is the same yesterday, today, and
forever. He changes not. The Son of God is the same. He is the Savior of the
world. He is our advocate with the Father. We have had letter after letter
from Elders abroad wanting to know concerning these things. Adam is the first
man. He was placed in the Garden of Eden, and is our great progenitor.
God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost, are the same yesterday,
today, and forever. That should be sufficient to know. (Millennial Star
57:355-356, April 7, 1895)
April of 1889, George Q. CannonGeneral Conference: There are TWO personages, the Father and the Son.
God is the being who walked in the Garden of Eden, and who
talkedwith the prophets. This revelation came to us in
certainty. (Millennial Star 51:278; April 7, 1889)
FATHER ADAMOUR GOD Brigham Young, in a sermon
in the tabernacle in Salt Lake City on April 9, 1852, said: "When our
Father Adam came into the garden
of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought
Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this
world. He is Michael, the Archangel, the Ancient of Days, and about
whom holy men have written and spoken. He is our Father and our God, and the only
God with whom we have to do." Of "His son, Jesus Christ," Brigham
Young said: I tell you that God was the Father of Jesus Christ, just
as I am the Father of my son."
Some have grumbled because I believe our God so
near to us as Father Adam. (JD 5:331)

How much unbelief exists in the minds of the Latter-day
Saints in regard to one particular doctrine which I
revealed to them, and which God revealed to me -- namely that Adam
is our Father and God -- I do not know, I do
not inquire, I care nothing about it. Our Father Adam helped to make
this earth, it was created expressly for him, and after it was made he and his
companions came here. (Deseret Weekly News 22:308-309, June 18,
1873)
Michael (Adam) was a resurrected
being and he left Elohim and came to the earth with an
immortal body, and continued so till he partook of earthly food and
begat children whowere mortal (keep this to yourselves) and then they
died. (Wilford Woodruff Journal, January 27,
1860)SSHH In the 1870 meeting of
the School of the Prophets, Brigham counseled: "... the
brethren to meditate on the subject, pray about it and keep it to
yourselves." (Joseph F. Smith Journal,October 15,
1870)[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Blaine: I guess I just can't resist breaking into an interesting
conversation!! Perry you are wrong when you say Mormons believe
Adam was both God-the-Father and Michael in the pre-existance.
It is clear and consistent in all Mormon doctrinal treatesies on this
subject that 1) The man Adam was Michael the archangel in the
pre-existence, 2) that Michael was third in order of authority in the
pre-existence. Both the Father and the Son were above Michael in
authority. Michael was the executive of the will of the Father and the
Son, you might say.

In a message dated 5/24/2005 8:01:49 AM Mountain Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [TruthTalk] mormon angels. was: Dave uses Socratic Method of Teaching LDS...

2005-05-25 Thread Judy Taylor

Blaine scripture teaches nothing about any
pre-existence so it is all a figment of someone's imagination. The Bible says
the hidden things
belong to the Lord but what has been revealed is for
the Lord's people and their children... and what is revealed says there is just
ONE God. jt

On Wed, 25 May 2005 00:31:07 EDT [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

elucidated? Everything said in your quotes supports the FACT that
Michael was 1) an archangel in the pre-existence, 2) that The Father and the
Son were above Michael in authority, and 3) Michael was the chief
executive officer, (CEO, if you will)under the authority
ofthe Father and the Son. Maybe Brigham was being a little
vague in referring to him as a "God," but he definitely was our father, and,
in a sense, our God, in that he was the first man, and the progenitor of all
of us. Its all a matter of interpretation.

In a message dated 5/24/2005 10:14:17 PM Mountain Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Blaine says It is clear and consistent in all Mormon
doctrinal treatesies on this subject that 1) The man Adam

Tell Brigham, Taylor, Woodruff Cannon! You just can't trust them
prohets ya know.
Seems that many LDs for many years have been TROUBLED by who is who.
But don't you worry. just ignore the contradictions. repeat after
me
"I know the church is true, I know the Church is true."

Spring 1895 General ConferenceWilford Woodruff
Cease troubling yourselvesabout who God is;
who Adam is, who Christ is, who Jehovah is. For heaven's sake, let
these things alone. Why trouble yourselves about these things? God has
revealed himself andwhen the 121st section of the Doctrine and Covenants
is fulfilled, whether there be ONE God or many Gods they
will be revealed to the children of men, as well as all thrones and
dominions, principalities, and powers. Then why trouble
yourselves about these things? God is God. Christ is
Christ. The Holy Ghost is the Holy Ghost. That should be
enough for you and me to know. If we want to know anymore, wait
till we get where God is in person. I say this because we are
troubled every little while with inquiries from Elders anxious to
know who God is, who Christ is, and who Adam
is. I say to the Elders of Israel, stop this.
Humble yourselves before the Lord; seek for light, for truth, and for a
knowledge of the common things of the Kingdom of God. The Lord is the same
yesterday, today, and forever. He changes not. The Son of God is the same.
He is the Savior of the world. He is our advocate with the Father. We have
had letter after letter from Elders abroad wanting to know concerning these
things. Adam is the first man. He was placed in the Garden of Eden,
and is our great progenitor. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy
Ghost, are the same yesterday, today, and forever. That should be sufficient
to know. (Millennial Star 57:355-356, April 7, 1895)
April of 1889, George Q. CannonGeneral Conference: There are TWO personages, the Father and the
Son. God is the being who walked in the Garden of Eden, and
who talkedwith the prophets. This revelation came to us
in certainty. (Millennial Star 51:278; April 7,
1889)
FATHER ADAMOUR GOD Brigham Young, in a
sermon in the tabernacle in Salt Lake City on April 9, 1852, said: "When our
Father Adam came into the garden
of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought
Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this
world. He is Michael, the Archangel, the Ancient of Days, and about
whom holy men have written and spoken. He is our Father and our God, and the only
God with whom we have to do." Of "His son, Jesus Christ," Brigham
Young said: I tell you that God was the Father of Jesus Christ, just
as I am the Father of my son."
Some have grumbled because I believe our God so
near to us as Father Adam. (JD 5:331)

Re: [TruthTalk] mormon angels. was: Dave uses Socratic Method of Teaching LDS...

2005-05-25 Thread Judy Taylor




Planning sessions? Tell me you are kidding DaveH 
... Like God is a committee and needs input? Also my Bible says that the 
Holy Spirit is the executor of the will of the Father and the Word who became 
the Son. jt

On Wed, 25 May 2005 00:06:20 -0700 Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  DAVEH: FWIW.I agree with what you explained below, 
  Blaine. But I've always thought LDS theology allows that Adam was a God 
  in the pre-mortal existence, inasmuch as he was one of the key players (as you 
  indicated below) who sat in on the planning sessions (so to speak) of the plan 
  of salvation, and then was a/the pivotal character in implementing the 
  gospel. Is that how you understand Adam's role/status, Blaine? 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 
  


Blaine: I guess I just can't resist breaking into an interesting 
conversation!! Perry you are wrong when you say Mormons believe 
Adam was both God-the-Father and Michael in the pre-existance. 
It is clear and consistent in all Mormon doctrinal 
treatesies on this subject that 1) The man Adam was Michael the 
archangel in the pre-existence, 2) that Michael was third in order of 
authority in the pre-existence. Both the Father and the Son were above 
Michael in authority. Michael was the executive of the will of the 
Father and the Son, you might say.

In a message dated 5/24/2005 8:01:49 AM Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Dave, If I am 
  "somewhat close", can you tell me the part I am wrong about? You 
  always say if I want to know what mormons believe, ask a 
  mormon...PerryFrom: Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED]Reply-To: 
  TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgTo: 
  TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: 
  Re: [TruthTalk] mormon angels. was: Dave uses Socratic Method of 
  Teaching LDS doctrine on TTDate: Tue, 24 May 2005 06:38:17 
  -0700Charles Perry Locke 
  wrote:Dave, 
  Christians consider angels and humans to be two distinct types of 
  created beings.DAVEH: Yes, I understand 
  that. Yet, it seems Paul is telling us that it is difficult 
  (if not impossible) to tell us (mortals) apart from 
  angels.Correct me if I am wrong, but don't mormons 
  consider angels to be either pre-mortal or post-mortal humans? 
  For example, don't mormons consider Michael (the archangel) 
  also to have been a human at one point...was it Adam? Hasn't 
  he also been considered to be the mormon god the father? So, 
  basically, one being can be spirit, angel, human, or god at 
  various times. Am I right on this?DAVEH: 
  You are somewhat 
close.Perry
-- 
~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~
If you wish to receive
things I find interesting,
I maintain six email lists...
JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS,
STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.

Re: [Bulk] Re: [TruthTalk] mormon angels. was: Dave uses Socratic Method of Teaching LDS doctrine on TT

2005-05-25 Thread Judy Taylor




Do you interpret being asked to answer a few questions 
about your doctrine as "being asked to teach" DaveH?
I'd call that a bit of a leap ... jt

On Tue, 24 May 2005 23:17:01 -0700 Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  DAVEH: Apparently many TTers want me to teach LDS theology 
  on TT, yet some wish to criticize me for complying with their wishes. 
  Seems like a no win situation, eh Lance.Lance Muir wrote: 
  Apparently there exists a 'collective' anticipation of your answer.

  
Yes, I am interested as well. Is this beleif found in
the BoM?

Blessings,

Christine

--- Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


  Actually, the problem I have is not with Dave
stating mormon beliefs,
especially when asked. It is his teaching mormon
doctrines, but denying that
he is doing so. I am for openest...but honesty, too.
  -- 
~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~
If you wish to receive
things I find interesting,
I maintain six email lists...
JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS,
STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.

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