Re: [ZION] Home automation
About the closest I'll ever get to automation is my talking computer, talking thermometer, talking VCR, talking alarm clock, talking braille device with speech included, etc. Stacy. At 05:05 AM 11/08/2002 +, you wrote: Anyone here interested in home automation? Anyone do any? Stephen / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] George III continues the tradition of malleable truth
Just to be clear, I was making fun of your statement. You say that we are the laughingstock of the world, and I just laugh at that (Ha ha! :-). The US is in a very difficult position of having sufficient power to destroy most any enemy, but having no desire to simply crush an entire country (and properly so). Thus, little fleas can, for a time, seemingly become the mouse that roared. But GW is clearly a lot smarter than you or others who are either eager to see him fail or who are simply our enemies think that he is. I just listened to the speeches concerning the passage of the UN resolution against Iraq, which passed the UNSC unanimously. people like you say It took 8 weeks! What a jerk GW is. However, I see a clever strategy that allowed others to make their public stands and be able to announce that they held back the US, while the US got exactly what it wanted. Even SYRIA voted for it, for heaven's sake! The US would not go into Iraq until Dec - Mar, so there is plenty of time. The US has made it clear to Saddam that either he completely disarms or he is toast - there is not confusion there; Bush did an excellent job of letting him know that, and of getting world support for his program. There is plenty of time now for the inspections to either succeed or fail. People in general, and Americans in particular, want thinks NOW - they lack patience. In this case, referencing your comments, he who laughs last, laughs best! And, whatever we can do to bring happiness to the rest of the world is EXACTLY what we should do! :-) Jon Stacy Smith wrote: No, I am not laughing at LDS as you suppose. I am laughing at American leadership. Stacy. At 09:35 AM 11/07/2002 -0500, you wrote: Of course! I understood you completely. My statement still stands. What a narrow view of the charter of our church to think that we only desire to bring happiness to the select few! :-) Jon Stacy Smith wrote: I didn't mean LDS; I meant us as a larger part of Americans. Stacy. At 07:43 AM 11/07/2002 -0500, you wrote: Then there is ample justification in doing what we do! After all, bringing happiness to the world is an important role. Jon Stacy Smith said with great mirth: We are surely the laughingstock of the world and also many Americans, including me. Stacy. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] George III continues the tradition of malleable truth
I expect that sometime in the future, sooner or later, the power of the US will dwindle and someone else will rise to preeminence. That will clearly be a hard pill to swallow. But it hasn't happened yet, so let's not worry too much about it. Jon Marc A. Schindler wrote in part: There's an article in the latest Atlantic Monthly that is kind of related to this. I don't go as far as the author does in his theme, which is that a renascent Europe will eventually come to eclipse the US (I have a hard time seeing how that's going to happen), but it's an interesting article nonetheless, and it's online: http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2002/11/kupchan.htm / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] War Against All of Islam
It wouldn't matter if they did - they wouldn't honor them. Especially considering their votes today in the UN. Jon John W. Redelfs wrote: After much pondering, Stacy Smith favored us with: I basically believe we will attack and they in turn attack us. We will then incite the entire Islamic world and all will turn against us. This is the likely scenario from my perspective. I wonder if either Russia or China have secret, mutual defense treaties with Saddam Hussein. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Mars Attacks
I know that you are being facetious here, but I truly hope that this is not your dream. If this were to happen, you would lose all of your sacred privileges and rights, and the US would be overtaken by the criminals among us, including those who would like to redistribute your vast wealth. Jon John W. Redelfs wrote: Have any of you seen the comedy entitled Mars Attacks. It is hilarious, and one of my favorite, recent films. Congress is dissolved to mere skeletons and then dust. And the White House is obliterated. I can think of very little that would so improve our nation, and restore our ancient liberties. Anyway, it was just a joke. But I have dreamed of such a thing for so long, it was a sweet dream come true, even if it was just little computer animated Martians. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Best Arguments on Evolution
Marc, Who in your opinion presents the best, book length, argument in favor of evolution? And who in your opinion best presents the best argument against evolution? I ask these questions so that I might systematically study both sides of the issue to see who has the better arguments using the criteria that are important to me. I ask you because you seem to be the resident expert on this topic. Incidentally, I am not asking for a book list, not even a short one. I want your evaluation, your carefully considered opinion on the best argument for each side. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === We tend to scoff at the beliefs of the ancients. But we can't scoff at them personally, to their faces, and this is what annoys me. --Jack Handy === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Osama bin Laden
Unfortunately, the target is way out in LEFT field, a rather funny place for JWR to be shooting arrows! Jon My point exactly and right on target. Stacy. At 11:07 AM 11/07/2002 -0900, you wrote: Is everyone pretty convinced that Osama bin Laden is still alive? If he is, maybe we should finish that part of the War on Terrorism before adding Saddam Hussein to the hit list. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
Yes, but cocky people are very proud of their deeds. I don't have any doubts. Stacy. At 07:13 AM 11/08/2002 -0900, you wrote: After much pondering, Marc A. Schindler favored us with: Actually he admitted it on a videotape played on Al-Jezeera television, out of Doha, Qatar, the day after. He'd prepared the video ahead of time, so there's not much doubt. Can we be sure he was telling the truth when he admitted to the 9-11 attack? I'm sure an evil man like Osama is also a liar. Would such a man lie to enhance his prestige? Often when murder is committed, the police have to sort through false confessions. It sounds perfectly stupid to a well balanced individual, but it happens. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === Laurie got offended that I used the word puke. But to me, that's what her dinner tasted like. --Jack Handy === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Best Arguments on Evolution
I thought the church should strongly against the issue on an evolutionary process. Stacy. At 06:36 AM 11/08/2002 -0900, you wrote: Marc, Who in your opinion presents the best, book length, argument in favor of evolution? And who in your opinion best presents the best argument against evolution? I ask these questions so that I might systematically study both sides of the issue to see who has the better arguments using the criteria that are important to me. I ask you because you seem to be the resident expert on this topic. Incidentally, I am not asking for a book list, not even a short one. I want your evaluation, your carefully considered opinion on the best argument for each side. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === We tend to scoff at the beliefs of the ancients. But we can't scoff at them personally, to their faces, and this is what annoys me. --Jack Handy === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Osama bin Laden
Well, we can only spread ourselves so thin. Stacy. At 11:34 AM 11/08/2002 -0500, you wrote: I am constantly amazed at the fuzzy thinking that some people exhibit by dragging up this obviously silly argument. Now let me get this straight by using another example that, I believe, is entirely analogous. We have a war against crime in the US. It has been going on for as long as the US has been in existence. We were looking for the Beltway Snipers. I think that it was ridiculous to worry about trying to stop any other criminals because we couldn't stop the snipers. Is that your logic? Are you saying that because we can't be certain that we have killed USB (you say OSB) that we should ignore the fact that we have plenty of both other threats and resources with which to pursue them, and instead just sit around looking for a needle in a haystack? USB was always the figurehead and the money man. His underlings were the planners and shakers. They are the ones we need to get. Or are you saying that we should have ignored Germany in WWII, because Japan was a big enemy (actually, a much more rational argument), or ignored Italy? No, we needed to rid the world of these threats - it was both our duty and our obligation. From my perspective, this type of argument seems self-destructive. Jon John W. Redelfs wrote: Is everyone pretty convinced that Osama bin Laden is still alive? If he is, maybe we should finish that part of the War on Terrorism before adding Saddam Hussein to the hit list. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
John, you seem to have a really blind spot on this issue. This is really not like you - it has given you Alzheimer disease, I think. The video of USB claiming responsibility and talking about the plans ahead of time was played ad nauseum on the TV rag outlets. And while we do have an obligation to not just accept things blindly, we also need to use our judgment and not paint all politicians with the same broad brush. Bush et al did have evidence, quite a bit in fact. I can respect your opposition to the way things are going, and part of me agrees with you - but only part. I hope, along with you, that your prognostications are not correct. But PLEASE don't go so far over the edge in stating the reasons for your opposition. It scares me! You are supposed to be one of the sane ones. Jon John W. Redelfs wrote: After much pondering, Paul Osborne favored us with: The President of the United States and US intelligence has determined that he is guilty. Case closed. Just hope they don't find you guilty of anything without evidence. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
You weren't attacked by a nation. That's the problem. Paul Osborne wrote: Actually he admitted it on a videotape played on Al-Jezeera television, out of Doha, Qatar, the day after. He'd prepared the video ahead of time, so there's not much doubt. Right. And, I'm in favor of nuclear strikes if necessary--if that's what it takes to knock out those people that support terrorism. And, I'm not kidding either. We should have just nuked those mountains instead of wasting time going up there to shoot them. We should demonstrate that an attack on US soil will be met with the greatest of force. Then, these punky nations will learn to fear us and police themselves a little better. Bomb em, nuke em-- and let em have it! And, I predict that Iraq is about to get it really good. You'll see. They deserve it too. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] George III continues the tradition of malleable truth
You sexist pig! That should have been she he Jon Paul Osborne gloatingly wrote: he he / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Best Arguments on Evolution
Strictly speaking, I honestly don't know, because I don't consider evolution to be a moral issue which one is converted to -- it's just a toolset for approaching one question on how the physical world works, like any other theory. You probably suspected I'd respond that way, but it's true. Also, it's difficult to give a succinct summary of such a complex theory in this kind of forum -- there's just too much that has to be taught in terms of principles, and I'm not sure I'm up to it. But in the *spirit* of your request... I wouldn't suggest this for a beginner, but the best and most up-to-date general actual textbook, meant for university courses, is probably the relatively new, but very long book that Stephen Jay Gould published just before he died, The Structure of Evolutionary Theory. (see http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/item.asp?Catalog=BooksSection=BooksCat=Lang=enItem=978067400613mscssid=7EWCQDA2HCDH9N0KVA6BR44QDALM242AWSID=12118329ED39C4EC4ACA9E25931C6F6D34DA1308 for a description). I believe it's used at BYU for Zoology 475, which is the evolution course taught by Drs. Whiting and Jeffery this semester, from what I understand. (For the course's web site, from which you can also get the BYU package, see http://zoology.byu.edu/zool475/) If you're interested in apologetics in the sense of anti-creationism, the talk.origins website is one of the best on-line resources that I know of. http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs-qa.html -- they have some good FAQs on various topics. The best LDS book I've read, which has the advantage that it doesn't just cover evolution, but other scientific topics, including the Big Bang, is Clark, David L.; ed. Of Heaven and Earth: Reconciling Scientific Thought With LDS Theology (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1998). I have a review and some excerpts at: http://www.members.shaw.ca/mschindler/A/Of Heaven and Earth.htm There are two good books by non-LDS on the topic, and they have the advantage of being inexpensive paperbacks and not overly long and not overly technical: (Gould, the late well-known Harvard palaeontologist, described himself as a secular Jewish agnostic, but he's the one who coined the term Non-overlapping Magisteria (NOMA). He was not the first to refer to the concept, however -- I have citations from a RC cardinal who tried to help Galileo (who was his own worst enemy in many ways), and also, intriguingly, the 1931 letter from the Heber J. Grant 1Presidency to all GAs which is quoted in the article Evolution in the Encyclopedia of Mormonism. Miller is, I believe, Catholic, but definitely a believer. He's also a biochemist). Stephen Jay Gould, Rocks of Ages: Science and Religion in the Fullness of Life (New York: Ballantine Books, 1999). I'm reading this now and will post a review to my website when I'm finished. Miller, Kenneth. Finding Darwins God: a Scientists Search for Common Ground Between God and Evolution (New York: HarperCollins, 1999). (I have a review of this, along with some excerpts, on my website: http://www.members.shaw.ca/mschindler/A/miller.htm For an interesting essay by a Latter-day Saint on why some GAs have taught against evolution, see: http://www.whyprophets.com/prophets/evolution.htm (I like this because he agrees with me :-)). Seriously, he says there's a common conception of evolution which lay people have which is wrong and is a straw man. The GAs arguments have been, by and large, against this straw man, but Chris Tolworthy makes the argument that prophets can't always afford to let themselves get bogged down in detail and have to make a clear statement, and I agree with this (this is the flip side of being resistant to what I consider over-literalistic interpretation; it also allows me to incorporate things which might at first disturb me, like what I saw to be the flat-out ignorance of Pres. Smith's Man: His Origin and Destiny, as I put it to my senior home teaching companion at the time.) Ironically, one of the best lay explanations of evolution, although it's a bit outdated, was actually in an official Church magazine. You may recall that before the correlated new publications of Ensign/Liahona/New Era/Friend came out, the Sunday School had their own monthly, called The Instructor. Harrison, Bertrand F. The Relatedness of Living Things, The Instructor, July 1965: 272-276 is an explanation of how evolution works. I have it online at: http://www.members.shaw.ca/mschindler/A/eyring_11.htm And Pres. Stephen L. Richards refers to the inspiration which guides all scientists, including Darwin, in a letter to college students that was published in The Improvement Era (predecessor to the Ensign). Again, I have this online at: http://www.members.shaw.ca/mschindler/A/eyring_12.htm And finally, if you can hang tight, I might have another resource. I've had the idea for an article accepted by a well-known LDS publication (not Dialogue or Sunstone), and a draft has been submitted. I can't reveal which publication yet
Re: [ZION] War Against All of Islam
Which votes? France and Russia voted in favour of the new US resolution at the Security Council where they, along with the US, hold permanent seats. Jon Spencer wrote: It wouldn't matter if they did - they wouldn't honor them. Especially considering their votes today in the UN. Jon John W. Redelfs wrote: After much pondering, Stacy Smith favored us with: I basically believe we will attack and they in turn attack us. We will then incite the entire Islamic world and all will turn against us. This is the likely scenario from my perspective. I wonder if either Russia or China have secret, mutual defense treaties with Saddam Hussein. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
To be sure, but it seems the videotape was prepared ahead of time and delivered to al-Jazeera on condition they not play it until after the 11th of September, from what I recall. That would at least imply foreknowledge, if not guilt as such. John W. Redelfs wrote: After much pondering, Marc A. Schindler favored us with: Actually he admitted it on a videotape played on Al-Jezeera television, out of Doha, Qatar, the day after. He'd prepared the video ahead of time, so there's not much doubt. Can we be sure he was telling the truth when he admitted to the 9-11 attack? I'm sure an evil man like Osama is also a liar. Would such a man lie to enhance his prestige? Often when murder is committed, the police have to sort through false confessions. It sounds perfectly stupid to a well balanced individual, but it happens. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === Laurie got offended that I used the word puke. But to me, that's what her dinner tasted like. --Jack Handy === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?
Although I'm not necessarily disagreeing with your conclusion, the logic begs the question, since it's scripture quoting scripture. If scripture is written in some kind of code, or compacted language, then a quote, reference to allusion to another scripture would follow the same format. Mark Gregson wrote: I'm not going to say Yes, of course the actual event happened as described, because it really doesn't matter. If it did, great; if not _so what_. I refuse to The Book of Mormon prophets believed that the water actually parted for the Israelites but then closed in upon the Egyptians. That's one reason why I think it matters. 1 Ne. 4: 2 Therefore let us go up; let us be strong like unto Moses; for he truly spake unto the waters of the Red Sea and they divided hither and thither, and our fathers came through, out of captivity, on dry ground, and the armies of Pharaoh did follow and were drowned in the waters of the Red Sea. 1 Ne. 17: 26 Now ye know that Moses was commanded of the Lord to do that great work; and ye know that by his word the waters of the Red Sea were divided hither and thither, and they passed through on dry ground. Hel. 8: 11 Therefore he was constrained to speak more unto them saying: Behold, my brethren, have ye not read that God gave power unto one man, even Moses, to smite upon the waters of the Red Sea, and they parted hither and thither, insomuch that the Israelites, who were our fathers, came through upon dry ground, and the waters closed upon the armies of the Egyptians and swallowed them up? = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- ___ Get your free email from http://mymail.operamail.com Powered by Outblaze / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re:[ZION] Up JWR's way -- the Golden Bough of the Misty Isles
Marc: I'd most certaily be interested in the article. You may e-mail me a copy if you wish. val -- Marc A. Schindler [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: From: Marc A. Schindler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: zion-l [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [ZION] Up JWR's way -- the Golden Bough of the Misty Isles Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 21:29:07 -0700 Thanks to the stumblebums at S-Cargo Canada [say it out loud and think French], (delete etc.) Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Best Arguments on Evolution
Here's the latest statement, which is positive neutrality, which is to say, that it's not a matter for the Church to have an opinion on one way or the other (despite what some brethren have written; see my response to John for more information). This is the Encyclopedia of Mormonism article on Evolution, written by William E. Evenson, dean of the college of physical and mathematical sciences at BYU. In an interview with David H. Bailey (an LDS scientist who is, of all things, the world's leading authority on pi, the constant), Dr. Evenson said he worked very closely with Pres. GBH, who was iirc 1st counsellor in the 1P at the time, on the exact wording. In Public Affairs, when we distributed the EoM to libraries we were told it was to replace other, earlier reference books and our stake president said this was a reference to Mormon Doctrine, by BRMcC. His opinion, fwiw, he was reading between the lines. EoM went through a special two-level correlation process, although even it has the usual disclaimer. Anyway, here's a link to the entry: http://www.members.shaw.ca/mschindler/A/eyring_22.htm Note especially the 2nd last paragraph, which sets out, as I read it, a separation between science and religion. They are not competing ideologies, although I'm fully aware that many people use scientism as a tool in ideological conflict. Stacy Smith wrote: I thought the church should strongly against the issue on an evolutionary process. Stacy. At 06:36 AM 11/08/2002 -0900, you wrote: Marc, Who in your opinion presents the best, book length, argument in favor of evolution? And who in your opinion best presents the best argument against evolution? I ask these questions so that I might systematically study both sides of the issue to see who has the better arguments using the criteria that are important to me. I ask you because you seem to be the resident expert on this topic. Incidentally, I am not asking for a book list, not even a short one. I want your evaluation, your carefully considered opinion on the best argument for each side. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === We tend to scoff at the beliefs of the ancients. But we can't scoff at them personally, to their faces, and this is what annoys me. --Jack Handy === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Best Arguments on Evolution
I wouldn't suggest this for a beginner, but the best and most up-to-date general actual textbook, meant for university courses, is probably the relatively new, but very long book that Stephen Jay Gould published just before he died, The Structure of Evolutionary Theory. John, you should know that many proponents and researchers of evolution disagree with Gould. They consider him a populizer of a small group's point of view. They don't consider him to be mainstream, particularly on his theory of punctuated equilibrium. But I hope that you are serious about the challenge of studying the issue of evolution if you honestly expect to come to some kind of real understanding. There is so much material to wade through with so many questions about each fact that it could easily take a lifetime. On the other hand, the international space station continues to grow and the Internet is so very useful. Some things may be interesting whereas other things are useful and actually work. (Just taking another fun little poke at Marc; it wasn't aimed at you, John). = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- ___ Get your free email from http://mymail.operamail.com Powered by Outblaze / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Best Arguments on Evolution
I'm compiling a long list of books to buy so that when I walk into an LDS bookstore I'm not just going um, um, um. Stacy. At 10:43 AM 11/08/2002 -0700, you wrote: Strictly speaking, I honestly don't know, because I don't consider evolution to be a moral issue which one is converted to -- it's just a toolset for approaching one question on how the physical world works, like any other theory. You probably suspected I'd respond that way, but it's true. Also, it's difficult to give a succinct summary of such a complex theory in this kind of forum -- there's just too much that has to be taught in terms of principles, and I'm not sure I'm up to it. But in the *spirit* of your request... I wouldn't suggest this for a beginner, but the best and most up-to-date general actual textbook, meant for university courses, is probably the relatively new, but very long book that Stephen Jay Gould published just before he died, The Structure of Evolutionary Theory. (see http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/item.asp?Catalog=BooksSection=BooksCat=Lang=enItem=978067400613mscssid=7EWCQDA2HCDH9N0KVA6BR44QDALM242AWSID=12118329ED39C4EC4ACA9E25931C6F6D34DA1308 for a description). I believe it's used at BYU for Zoology 475, which is the evolution course taught by Drs. Whiting and Jeffery this semester, from what I understand. (For the course's web site, from which you can also get the BYU package, see http://zoology.byu.edu/zool475/) If you're interested in apologetics in the sense of anti-creationism, the talk.origins website is one of the best on-line resources that I know of. http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs-qa.html -- they have some good FAQs on various topics. The best LDS book I've read, which has the advantage that it doesn't just cover evolution, but other scientific topics, including the Big Bang, is Clark, David L.; ed. Of Heaven and Earth: Reconciling Scientific Thought With LDS Theology (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1998). I have a review and some excerpts at: http://www.members.shaw.ca/mschindler/A/Of Heaven and Earth.htm There are two good books by non-LDS on the topic, and they have the advantage of being inexpensive paperbacks and not overly long and not overly technical: (Gould, the late well-known Harvard palaeontologist, described himself as a secular Jewish agnostic, but he's the one who coined the term Non-overlapping Magisteria (NOMA). He was not the first to refer to the concept, however -- I have citations from a RC cardinal who tried to help Galileo (who was his own worst enemy in many ways), and also, intriguingly, the 1931 letter from the Heber J. Grant 1Presidency to all GAs which is quoted in the article Evolution in the Encyclopedia of Mormonism. Miller is, I believe, Catholic, but definitely a believer. He's also a biochemist). Stephen Jay Gould, Rocks of Ages: Science and Religion in the Fullness of Life (New York: Ballantine Books, 1999). I'm reading this now and will post a review to my website when I'm finished. Miller, Kenneth. Finding Darwins God: a Scientists Search for Common Ground Between God and Evolution (New York: HarperCollins, 1999). (I have a review of this, along with some excerpts, on my website: http://www.members.shaw.ca/mschindler/A/miller.htm For an interesting essay by a Latter-day Saint on why some GAs have taught against evolution, see: http://www.whyprophets.com/prophets/evolution.htm (I like this because he agrees with me :-)). Seriously, he says there's a common conception of evolution which lay people have which is wrong and is a straw man. The GAs arguments have been, by and large, against this straw man, but Chris Tolworthy makes the argument that prophets can't always afford to let themselves get bogged down in detail and have to make a clear statement, and I agree with this (this is the flip side of being resistant to what I consider over-literalistic interpretation; it also allows me to incorporate things which might at first disturb me, like what I saw to be the flat-out ignorance of Pres. Smith's Man: His Origin and Destiny, as I put it to my senior home teaching companion at the time.) Ironically, one of the best lay explanations of evolution, although it's a bit outdated, was actually in an official Church magazine. You may recall that before the correlated new publications of Ensign/Liahona/New Era/Friend came out, the Sunday School had their own monthly, called The Instructor. Harrison, Bertrand F. The Relatedness of Living Things, The Instructor, July 1965: 272-276 is an explanation of how evolution works. I have it online at: http://www.members.shaw.ca/mschindler/A/eyring_11.htm And Pres. Stephen L. Richards refers to the inspiration which guides all scientists, including Darwin, in a letter to college students that was published in The Improvement Era (predecessor to the Ensign). Again, I have this online at: http://www.members.shaw.ca/mschindler/A/eyring_12.htm And finally, if you can hang tight, I might have
Re: [ZION] War Against All of Islam
After much pondering, Jon Spencer favored us with: It wouldn't matter if they did - they wouldn't honor them. Especially considering their votes today in the UN. So you are absolutely sure that if we attack Iraq that no other country will get involved against us, is that right? --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] War Against All of Islam
Dreamer! Stacy. At 07:43 AM 11/08/2002 -0900, you wrote: After much pondering, Jon Spencer favored us with: It wouldn't matter if they did - they wouldn't honor them. Especially considering their votes today in the UN. So you are absolutely sure that if we attack Iraq that no other country will get involved against us, is that right? --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Best Arguments on Evolution
Mark Gregson wrote: I wouldn't suggest this for a beginner, but the best and most up-to-date general actual textbook, meant for university courses, is probably the relatively new, but very long book that Stephen Jay Gould published just before he died, The Structure of Evolutionary Theory. John, you should know that many proponents and researchers of evolution disagree with Gould. They consider him a populizer of a small group's point of view. They don't consider him to be mainstream, particularly on his theory of punctuated equilibrium. Actually, contrary to popular misconception he didn't originate the idea, he merely popularized it. It's now considered fairly mainstream, and part of the New Synthesis. But I hope that you are serious about the challenge of studying the issue of evolution if you honestly expect to come to some kind of real understanding. There is so much material to wade through with so many questions about each fact that it could easily take a lifetime. This is part of the problem. On the other hand, the international space station continues to grow and the Internet is so very useful. Some things may be interesting whereas other things are useful and actually work. (Just taking another fun little poke at Marc; it wasn't aimed at you, John). That's alright. Engineers have their place. Under the sink, with a wrench = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
RE: [ZION] Home automation
-Jon- Yep - I have automated quite a bit at our bookstore, and some at my home (because I can never get any time to finish it. What area do you have in mind? Probably my basement family room, to start with. I've been dreaming about home automation for many years, and toying with the idea of implementation for 2-3 years now. A little over a year ago, I started working for the Microsoft eHome division, doing what amounts to home automation. I was in heaven for about three weeks. If a massive organizational restructuring hadn't moved me to a completely unrelated area, I would probably have been knee-deep into it. I got a call from one of my oldest and dearest friends a few days ago, someone I haven't seen in probably twelve years, though he was briefly a member of a couple of email lists I was on, including Zion. He was in town doing some work at MS as a vendor. We got together for a few hours after work and had a wonderful time. He is apparently quite involved in home automation, and has rekindled that spark in me. So I just wanted to know what others had been doing. I did a quick search yesterday and found out that, for many people, home automation is synonymous with X10. This might be problematic; I think X10 technology is a neat idea, but I'm not overly interested in using it in my own home, unless I decide it's really the best way. I'd rather drill some holes and run wires to each switch and whatnot. So if you've been using X10, or if you haven't, I'd like to know your reasoning and thoughts, what you've done, what's useful, what isn't, what you'd do differently, etc. Also, do you use voice recognition/control? That's a centerpiece of my own ideas, and fairly easily implemented with some of the MS libraries. I assume you use a computer (or two, or three) to control your automation. Do you use professional or available software, or do you roll your own? Stephen / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Governing the Least
After much pondering, Jon Spencer favored us with: I know that you are being facetious here, but I truly hope that this is not your dream. If this were to happen, you would lose all of your sacred privileges and rights, and the US would be overtaken by the criminals among us, including those who would like to redistribute your vast wealth. Our government threatens our liberties more than any terrorists. Over a generation ago it became a rogue state exceeding its Constitutional authority. It is out of control. A wise man once said, The government which governs the least governs the best. I was not being facetious. The capital of our nation should be in Jackson County, not Washington, D. C. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?
At 09:31 AM 11/8/2002, you wrote: I'm not going to say Yes, of course the actual event happened as described, because it really doesn't matter. If it did, great; if not _so what_. I refuse to The Book of Mormon prophets believed that the water actually parted for the Israelites but then closed in upon the Egyptians. That's one reason why I think it matters. 1 Ne. 4: 2 Therefore let us go up; let us be strong like unto Moses; for he truly spake unto the waters of the Red Sea and they divided hither and thither, and our fathers came through, out of captivity, on dry ground, and the armies of Pharaoh did follow and were drowned in the waters of the Red Sea. 1 Ne. 17: 26 Now ye know that Moses was commanded of the Lord to do that great work; and ye know that by his word the waters of the Red Sea were divided hither and thither, and they passed through on dry ground. Hel. 8: 11 Therefore he was constrained to speak more unto them saying: Behold, my brethren, have ye not read that God gave power unto one man, even Moses, to smite upon the waters of the Red Sea, and they parted hither and thither, insomuch that the Israelites, who were our fathers, came through upon dry ground, and the waters closed upon the armies of the Egyptians and swallowed them up? = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = Or how about the words of the Lord Jesus Christ himself: (Doctrine and Covenants | Section 8:3) 3 Now, behold, this is the spirit of revelation; behold, this is the spirit by which Moses brought the children of Israel through the Red Sea on dry ground. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Fwd: Your Consideration.
Another of these entertaining invitations from Lagos... GREENFIELDS AGRO-ALLIED COMPANY. 10 BROAD STREET, LAGOS-NIGERIA. TEL: 2348023263622 Your Attention: First, I must solicit your strictest understanding in the matter i am about to disclose to you,if the contents of this mail does meet with your approval, I humbly crave your indulgence. I am recently retired as the director of finance of the Federal Ministry Of Power Steel (FMPS). During my tenure, I was also in charge of the tenders board. The job of the tenders board was to access bids made to the FMPS by foreign and local contractors for execution of contracts recommend to the government for award of such contracts. In the course of our work at the tenders board, we recieved a bid of (USD46.8M) from Arab Contractors Company of Egypt for the refurbishing of the six thermal flow stations and the supply of 27KVA transformers for the south-western part of the country. The bid was unsually low for the contract in question considering the other bids we had gone through. The tenders board then invited them for an appraisal of their bid. After the appraisal, we the five members of the tenders board agreed to recommend them for the award of the contract only if they increase thier bid to USD60M. The balance USD13.2M was to be paid to us (the members of the tenders board) after the execution of the contract for us. Not trusting the contractors to live up to their own part of the bargain, we established the above mentioned company and had them su-contract the USD13.2M to the company as a sub-contract. The deed of sub-contract was perfected by a notary public and registered at the federal high court, ( copies will be sent to you upon the commencement of this transaction) Arab contractors have executed the whole contract and have been paid off, leaving the balance USD13.2M. Considering the amount of the fund involved we cannot ask the CBN to pay directly into our local bank account as the bank regulatory bodies will want to know the directors of the company. Though I am retired, my other four partners are still ingovernment employ. I have therefore been mandated as a matter of trust by my partners to source for a business partner to whom we could transfer the sum of USD13.2M by drawing up a letter of domiciliation instructing the concerned government parastatals i.e the FMPS and CBN to pay into the partner's account the contractual entitlement of USD13.2M. Youy will agree with me that a letter of domiciliation is an accepted form of doing business worldwide. Should this transaction interest you, you are to contact me on my telephone number 2348023263622 or my e-mail address, so that I can brief you fully, and discuss your renumerationfor this undertaking. All logistics are in place and all modalities worked out for the smooth conclusion of the transaction upon receipt of the following information: Your full name/ company name, address, company's details activities, telephone fax numbers. These information will enable us make the applications and lodge claims to the concerned ministries agencies in favour of your company and it is pertinent to state here that a legally binding contract will be entered by all parties involved, this is to safe guard our mutual interest. Yours Faithfuly, Henry Azuka. _ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
Not only that but what about the innocents who would undoubtedly lose their lives in such an attack? -- Steven Montgomery At 10:09 AM 11/8/2002, you wrote: You weren't attacked by a nation. That's the problem. Paul Osborne wrote: Actually he admitted it on a videotape played on Al-Jezeera television, out of Doha, Qatar, the day after. He'd prepared the video ahead of time, so there's not much doubt. Right. And, I'm in favor of nuclear strikes if necessary--if that's what it takes to knock out those people that support terrorism. And, I'm not kidding either. We should have just nuked those mountains instead of wasting time going up there to shoot them. We should demonstrate that an attack on US soil will be met with the greatest of force. Then, these punky nations will learn to fear us and police themselves a little better. Bomb em, nuke em-- and let em have it! And, I predict that Iraq is about to get it really good. You'll see. They deserve it too. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author's employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Governing the Least
Just what is predicted will happen. We will be overrun and the people that will be left will be in anarchy. Only a relatively few of us (those in the church that are left) will be the ones to save ourselves and the remnant of the people. This is the way I see the prophecies that have been made, and, unfortunately, I will live to see it. The flip side, of course, is that there will only be a little misery before the Messiah comes back to rule, but I really do not wish to go through that kind of misery. I'm beginning to wish I could die before that happens. Stacy. At 09:34 AM 11/08/2002 -0900, you wrote: After much pondering, Jon Spencer favored us with: I know that you are being facetious here, but I truly hope that this is not your dream. If this were to happen, you would lose all of your sacred privileges and rights, and the US would be overtaken by the criminals among us, including those who would like to redistribute your vast wealth. Our government threatens our liberties more than any terrorists. Over a generation ago it became a rogue state exceeding its Constitutional authority. It is out of control. A wise man once said, The government which governs the least governs the best. I was not being facetious. The capital of our nation should be in Jackson County, not Washington, D. C. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?
In other words, we should be concentrating on the spirit of revelation, and not on events, which are simply that, events. Steven Montgomery wrote: At 09:31 AM 11/8/2002, you wrote: I'm not going to say Yes, of course the actual event happened as described, because it really doesn't matter. If it did, great; if not _so what_. I refuse to The Book of Mormon prophets believed that the water actually parted for the Israelites but then closed in upon the Egyptians. That's one reason why I think it matters. 1 Ne. 4: 2 Therefore let us go up; let us be strong like unto Moses; for he truly spake unto the waters of the Red Sea and they divided hither and thither, and our fathers came through, out of captivity, on dry ground, and the armies of Pharaoh did follow and were drowned in the waters of the Red Sea. 1 Ne. 17: 26 Now ye know that Moses was commanded of the Lord to do that great work; and ye know that by his word the waters of the Red Sea were divided hither and thither, and they passed through on dry ground. Hel. 8: 11 Therefore he was constrained to speak more unto them saying: Behold, my brethren, have ye not read that God gave power unto one man, even Moses, to smite upon the waters of the Red Sea, and they parted hither and thither, insomuch that the Israelites, who were our fathers, came through upon dry ground, and the waters closed upon the armies of the Egyptians and swallowed them up? = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = Or how about the words of the Lord Jesus Christ himself: (Doctrine and Covenants | Section 8:3) 3 Now, behold, this is the spirit of revelation; behold, this is the spirit by which Moses brought the children of Israel through the Red Sea on dry ground. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] George III continues the tradition of malleable truth
After much pondering, Marc A. Schindler favored us with: Indeed. The article says it may well take a century for the neo-Europe to rise. It didn't take that long for the Third Reich. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Best Arguments on Evolution
After much pondering, Marc A. Schindler favored us with: But I hope that you are serious about the challenge of studying the issue of evolution if you honestly expect to come to some kind of real understanding. There is so much material to wade through with so many questions about each fact that it could easily take a lifetime. This is part of the problem. The details of any study are almost always complex. The fundamental principles are almost always simple. Generally, I like to learn the fundamentals before getting bogged down in the details. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === Dad always thought laughter was the best medicine, which I guess is why several of us died of tuberculosis. --Jack Handy === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Best Arguments on Evolution
After much pondering, Marc A. Schindler favored us with: And finally, if you can hang tight, I might have another resource. I've had the idea for an article accepted by a well-known LDS publication (not Dialogue or Sunstone), and a draft has been submitted. I can't reveal which publication yet because nothing is finalized yet, but I actually had in my mind, while writing this, several virtual personalities to whom I addressed the article. They include you and my younger son (who's at the opposite end -- he's a 3rd year astrophysics student at our counterpart to MIT and is agnostic, more or less). Even if it's not accepted, I'll post it on my website. I have an essay there now, called eppur si riconciliano (thanks again, Stephen, for the help with the title), but the essay isn't very well written, frankly. I think my new article expresses my thoughts much better. An excellent list, Marc. It sounds like I should read Gould's THE STRUCTURE OF EVOLUTIONARY THEORY. And if it is over my head, I should learn the prerequisites. If you recall, I also asked you for the best book-length argument against evolution. Because you are an expert, I just naturally assume that you know both sides of the argument. And to become educate in the matter myself, I need to study the best available on both sides of the issue. It would not be good thinking to pit the best on one side against the merely mediocre on the other. In any case, you have already provided us with an admirable survey of the literature on one side of the discussion, and for that I thank you. I think my sig below fits this thread, don't you? John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** ...by proving contraries, truth is made manifest --Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Volume 6, p.248 *** All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Best Arguments on Evolution
After much pondering, Mark Gregson favored us with: But I hope that you are serious about the challenge of studying the issue of evolution if you honestly expect to come to some kind of real understanding. There is so much material to wade through with so many questions about each fact that it could easily take a lifetime. On the other hand, the international space station continues to grow and the Internet is so very useful. Some things may be interesting whereas other things are useful and actually work. Which is exactly why I intend to read only one book on each side of the issue. I just need to decide which two books. It wouldn't make much sense for me to read the best on one side and the merely mediocre on the other. I'm not going to make this a gospel hobby. I am far more interested in the future of manned space flight and the future of the Internet. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === We tend to scoff at the beliefs of the ancients. But we can't scoff at them personally, to their faces, and this is what annoys me. --Jack Handy === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
After much pondering, Jon Spencer favored us with: I believe that sometime soon, someone will use a tactical nuke to take out a carrier battlegroup - they have no other way of doing it. If we were to use nukes now, then we would create a situation where we had sowed the seeds of our own loss. We would have the moral low ground when that event occurs. We need to always take the high road, so that, if and when the time comes that we have to respond in kind, we can do with honor. We already have the moral low ground. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Best Arguments on Evolution
It is! How did you find out? -- Steven Montgomery At 12:31 PM 11/8/2002, you wrote: He did. And I couldn't supply one. It's kind of like saying that the answer to life, the universe and everything is 42. Steven Montgomery wrote: I thought John asked for a single best source on the subject, both pro and con? grin -- Steven Montgomery At 10:43 AM 11/8/2002, you wrote: Strictly speaking, I honestly don't know, because I don't consider evolution to be a moral issue which one is converted to -- it's just a toolset for approaching one question on how the physical world works, like any other theory. You probably suspected I'd respond that way, but it's true. Also, it's difficult to give a succinct summary of such a complex theory in this kind of forum -- there's just too much that has to be taught in terms of principles, and I'm not sure I'm up to it. But in the *spirit* of your request... I wouldn't suggest this for a beginner, but the best and most up-to-date general actual textbook, meant for university courses, is probably the relatively new, but very long book that Stephen Jay Gould published just before he died, The Structure of Evolutionary Theory. (see http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/item.asp?Catalog=BooksSection=BooksCa t=Lang=enItem=978067400613mscssid=7EWCQDA2HCDH9N0KVA6BR44QDALM242AWSID=12118329ED39C4EC4ACA9E25931C6F6D34DA1308 for a description). I believe it's used at BYU for Zoology 475, which is the evolution course taught by Drs. Whiting and Jeffery this semester, from what I understand. (For the course's web site, from which you can also get the BYU package, see http://zoology.byu.edu/zool475/) If you're interested in apologetics in the sense of anti-creationism, the talk.origins website is one of the best on-line resources that I know of. http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs-qa.html -- they have some good FAQs on various topics. The best LDS book I've read, which has the advantage that it doesn't just cover evolution, but other scientific topics, including the Big Bang, is Clark, David L.; ed. Of Heaven and Earth: Reconciling Scientific Thought With LDS Theology (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1998). I have a review and some excerpts at: http://www.members.shaw.ca/mschindler/A/Of Heaven and Earth.htm There are two good books by non-LDS on the topic, and they have the advantage of being inexpensive paperbacks and not overly long and not overly technical: (Gould, the late well-known Harvard palaeontologist, described himself as a secular Jewish agnostic, but he's the one who coined the term Non-overlapping Magisteria (NOMA). He was not the first to refer to the concept, however -- I have citations from a RC cardinal who tried to help Galileo (who was his own worst enemy in many ways), and also, intriguingly, the 1931 letter from the Heber J. Grant 1Presidency to all GAs which is quoted in the article Evolution in the Encyclopedia of Mormonism. Miller is, I believe, Catholic, but definitely a believer. He's also a biochemist). Stephen Jay Gould, Rocks of Ages: Science and Religion in the Fullness of Life (New York: Ballantine Books, 1999). I'm reading this now and will post a review to my website when I'm finished. Miller, Kenneth. Finding Darwin's God: a Scientist's Search for Common Ground Between God and Evolution (New York: HarperCollins, 1999). (I have a review of this, along with some excerpts, on my website: http://www.members.shaw.ca/mschindler/A/miller.htm For an interesting essay by a Latter-day Saint on why some GAs have taught against evolution, see: http://www.whyprophets.com/prophets/evolution.htm (I like this because he agrees with me :-)). Seriously, he says there's a common conception of evolution which lay people have which is wrong and is a straw man. The GAs arguments have been, by and large, against this straw man, but Chris Tolworthy makes the argument that prophets can't always afford to let themselves get bogged down in detail and have to make a clear statement, and I agree with this (this is the flip side of being resistant to what I consider over-literalistic interpretation; it also allows me to incorporate things which might at first disturb me, like what I saw to be the flat-out ignorance of Pres. Smith's Man: His Origin and Destiny, as I put it to my senior home teaching companion at the time.) Ironically, one of the best lay explanations of evolution, although it's a bit outdated, was actually in an official Church magazine. You may recall that before the correlated new publications of Ensign/Liahona/New Era/Friend came out, the Sunday School had their own monthly, called The Instructor. Harrison, Bertrand F. The Relatedness of Living Things, The Instructor, July 1965: 272-276 is an explanation of how evolution works. I have it online at: http://www.members.shaw.ca/mschindler/A/eyring_11.htm And Pres. Stephen L. Richards
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
After much pondering, Stacy Smith favored us with: I agree, but no matter what we do we will be overrun. I don't know if I agree with the prevailing LDS sentiment that we will prevail, either. I suppose one has to ask what is meant by prevail. If you mean win but only with a tiny fraction of people left, I don't really call that winning. The Book of Mormon clearly teaches--citations available on demand--that if the voice of the people should ever choose wickedness, their destruction is imminent. It also teaches that our nation will serve the God of this land or it will be swept off. Judging from how close the last election was, the voice of the people is on the verge of choosing wickedness. I think they did it when they elected Clinton to his second term. I think they did it when they upheld that notorious Supreme Court decision in 1973. What this nations needs most in its War on Terrorism is widespread, national repentance. Have any of you seen signs of this happening? Statistically has sexual immorality gone down? Is church attendance way up? Has there been any rush to marry live in partners. Is there a growing clamor for repealing those laws that allow state sponsored gambling? Is the liquor in a deep slump from falling sales? If there is not widespread national repentance, the USA will be destroyed. Further, it will deserve it. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === Laurie got offended that I used the word puke. But to me, that's what her dinner tasted like. --Jack Handy === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Best Arguments on Evolution
It is difficult to find books on evolution that avoid dogmatic approaches. I suspect that most who disagree with the rank and file do so privately. In my experience any lack of enthusiasm for the currently favored doctrine of evolution is met with waves of contempt and derision. If you don't pledge allegience to the right stuff, you're obviously just stupid. For an alternative perspective, I have enjoyed Kenneth Miller's APPROACHING DARWIN'S GOD. Also Michael Behe's DARWIN'S BLACK BOX. Both of them at least admit that there are issues beyond the current politically-correct envelope of academic regimen. --- Mij Ebaboc / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Home automation
Stephen: Anyone here interested in home automation? Anyone do any? Dan: I've thought of it a few times, but wasn't too impressed with the X-10 architecture when I was more serious about it. Planned on rolling my own, but just haven't had the time. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] War Against All of Islam
What do you mean? Did you read what I typed, or are you, too, going blind, like Ryan and myself? I will restate my sentence in different terms for you: It would not matter if Russia and/or China had an existing mutual defense treaty with Iraq [sidebar: the mere thought is extremely funny!]. Neither the Russians nor the Chinese would honor such a treaty even if it existed. This view is certainly strengthened by the UN SC vote today, where both Russia and China voted to support the US resolution. OK? Jon Marc A. Schindler wrote: Which votes? France and Russia voted in favour of the new US resolution at the Security Council where they, along with the US, hold permanent seats. Jon Spencer wrote: It wouldn't matter if they did - they wouldn't honor them. Especially considering their votes today in the UN. Jon John W. Redelfs wrote: After much pondering, Stacy Smith favored us with: I basically believe we will attack and they in turn attack us. We will then incite the entire Islamic world and all will turn against us. This is the likely scenario from my perspective. I wonder if either Russia or China have secret, mutual defense treaties with Saddam Hussein. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Fwd: Your Consideration.
I humbly crave your indulgence?? Geoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] 11/08/02 12:14PM Another of these entertaining invitations from Lagos... GREENFIELDS AGRO-ALLIED COMPANY. 10 BROAD STREET, LAGOS-NIGERIA. TEL: 2348023263622 Your Attention: First, I must solicit your strictest understanding in the matter i am about to disclose to you,if the contents of this mail does meet with your approval, I humbly crave your indulgence. -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
I do not believe that you can use the WWII use of nukes as a precedent for any action today, unless we were again at that decision point. It is quite clear that the use of nukes in WWII saved many lives, both Japanese and American. When did we ever issue a real threat to use nukes since WWII? As far as I know, other than some rumored clandestine close calls, the only serious threat of using nukes occurred in the 60's in the Cuban missile showdown. Our dear friend Castro, the same one how was recently cheered in Harlem, demanded that the Soviet commander use the tactical nukes. He supposedly almost did, but obviously they were not used. This brings up an interesting point, namely, if al Qaeda gets a nuke from some rogue country, or one of the floating Soviet nukes, and uses it, whom would we retaliate against? My best guess is that we would not retaliate (at least President Bush wouldn't, nor would anyone else currently likely to occupy the Presidency). This is one of the reasons it is so important to (1) get rid of Saddam, (2) bring North Korea into line, (3) assist he Russians to make a major effort to find all their nukes, (4) aggressively protect our borders, and (5) aggressively pursue any and all international terrorist threats. We do not have the luxury of sitting around playing peace. All of this can be done without trampling on what both John and I consider to be inalienable rights. I also disagree with your last statement about war. The Church stays out of things like that. We are obligated to protect ourselves. We do not need direction in all things. I see nothing in the scriptures which says that we should not preemptively defend ourselves, and one has a very difficult time comparing Nephites situations to our current situations. Yes, war is a serious issue. But I will promise you, if there were a group of thugs in Cary (the next town over from Apex, where I live), and they were making plans to attack me in a manner that I could not defend against, I would preemptively move against them. I fell sorry for anyone who would not. Jon Mark Gregson wrote: I believe that sometime soon, someone will use a tactical nuke to take out a carrier battlegroup - they have no other way of doing it. If we were to use nukes now, then we would create a situation where we had sowed the seeds of our own loss. We would have the moral low ground when that event occurs. Once the nukes start getting tossed around it won't matter who was the first to use them because everyone will be using them as just another conventional weapon. There won't be any moral high ground, just as there is no moral high ground right now in the use of tanks, planes, ships, artillery, grenades, rifles and so on. Anyway, the US has already used nukes in war and has also threatened further use so the precendent is set. Anyone using nukes in battle will justify themselves on the US precedent. It won't matter if you agree with them or not, they will use that justification. Not that justification has much to do with anything. The nukes will kill lots of people with or without it and the response will be extremely hard to limit. The genie came out of the bottle in about 1939 when the US decided to work on the bomb. (Well, of course the moral high ground is to not wage war except as specified by scripture and revelation.) / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Best Arguments on Evolution
Actually, contrary to popular misconception he didn't originate the idea, he merely popularized it. It's now considered fairly mainstream, and part of the New Synthesis. I knew he didn't come up with the initial idea when I wrote my previous post but I got lazy. However, I am correct in stating that Gould is not considered mainstream amongst evolutionists, and in particular, punctuated equilibrium is not widely accepted in evolutionist circles. This extract shows criticism of Gould's theories by other evolutionists: http://www.theexperiment.org/articles.php?news_id=1791 After once proclaiming that Dr. Gould had brought paleontology back to the high table of evolutionary theory, Dr. John Maynard Smith, an evolutionary biologist at University of Sussex in England, wrote that other evolutionary biologists tend to see him as a man whose ideas are so confused as to be hardly worth bothering with. Sometimes these criticisms descend into so-called Gould-bashing where the charges are as personal as intellectual. Punctuated equilibrium, for example, has been called evolution by jerks. This extract calls Gould a gadfly amongst evolutionists: http://www.id.ucsb.edu/fscf/LIBRARY/JOHNSON/Brockman.html I don't want to emphasize either the explicit or implicit dissents from Darwinism, however, because the most revealing remark about Darwinism in The Third Culture comes from a Darwinist of unimpeachable authority, George Williams. Williams is much less visible to the public than Dawkins or Gould, but he is more authoritative in the profession than either. Along with John Maynard Smith and William Hamilton, he is at the summit of the inner circle of evolutionary biology, in a realm where Gould is regarded as a gadfly and Dawkins is something of a junior partner. Williams and Hamilton earned their preminent status by pioneering the gene-centered Darwinism that Dawkins popularized with such success in The Selfish Gene. = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- ___ Get your free email from http://mymail.operamail.com Powered by Outblaze / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] War Against All of Islam
Quite a jump there, JWR! You mentioned Russia and China, and I shot them down. That's all. And yes, I am quite certain, especially after today's UN vote, that not a single solitary country will join Iraq against us. That is absolutely correct. Jon John W. Redelfs asked: After much pondering, Jon Spencer favored us with: It wouldn't matter if they did - they wouldn't honor them. Especially considering their votes today in the UN. So you are absolutely sure that if we attack Iraq that no other country will get involved against us, is that right? --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
When logic fails, attack! :-) Jon Marc A. Schindler wrote: If it's so smart, then you won't mind giving it all your money. Obviously it knows what to do with it better than you do. ;-) Paul Osborne wrote: After much pondering, Paul Osborne favored us with: The President of the United States and US intelligence has determined that he is guilty. Case closed. Just hope they don't find you guilty of anything without evidence. --JWR The US government is not that broken John. It is without a doubt the smartest entity on earth. Paul O / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
My sentiments exactly. Do you really call that winning, for the few of us that are left? I suppose in some ways it is. At least those of us who are left will deserve to be left. But for a while we will have to go through torment, and don't ask me to look forward to that. Stacy. At 10:41 AM 11/08/2002 -0900, you wrote: After much pondering, Stacy Smith favored us with: I agree, but no matter what we do we will be overrun. I don't know if I agree with the prevailing LDS sentiment that we will prevail, either. I suppose one has to ask what is meant by prevail. If you mean win but only with a tiny fraction of people left, I don't really call that winning. The Book of Mormon clearly teaches--citations available on demand--that if the voice of the people should ever choose wickedness, their destruction is imminent. It also teaches that our nation will serve the God of this land or it will be swept off. Judging from how close the last election was, the voice of the people is on the verge of choosing wickedness. I think they did it when they elected Clinton to his second term. I think they did it when they upheld that notorious Supreme Court decision in 1973. What this nations needs most in its War on Terrorism is widespread, national repentance. Have any of you seen signs of this happening? Statistically has sexual immorality gone down? Is church attendance way up? Has there been any rush to marry live in partners. Is there a growing clamor for repealing those laws that allow state sponsored gambling? Is the liquor in a deep slump from falling sales? If there is not widespread national repentance, the USA will be destroyed. Further, it will deserve it. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === Laurie got offended that I used the word puke. But to me, that's what her dinner tasted like. --Jack Handy === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
It is quite clear that the use of nukes in WWII saved many lives, both Japanese and American. I've already explained on this list some years ago that the nukes did not end the war. You can disbelieve it, but it's best not to read what actually happened in Japan if you want to maintain that belief. When did we ever issue a real threat to use nukes since WWII? Korean War and Gulf War. (Unless you consider a real threat to be only a case where the US was minutes away from pulling the trigger.) This brings up an interesting point, namely, if al Qaeda gets a nuke from some rogue country, or one of the floating Soviet nukes, and uses it, whom would we retaliate against? My best guess is that we would not retaliate Yes, I've wondered about that, too. When (not if) Manhatten is nuked, what will the US response be? I assume that it will be by terrorists. I also disagree with your last statement about war. The Church stays out of things like that. No, as already posted on this list the Church leaders have made statements about the rightness of specific wars. As to what the scriptures say about it, well, that's been hotly deliberated for weeks on this list. We will have to agree to disagree. = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- ___ Get your free email from http://mymail.operamail.com Powered by Outblaze / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Virtual Personalities?
I thought all personalities were real, despite the way they appear on the virtual screen. Stacy. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Governing the Least
OK, I'll go with your last statement. But you said you would like to see the destruction of the US capital. That is what I was responding to. If you think that would not be a problem, go live in Saudi Arabia and try to go on an exchange to see some Saudi investigators! Jon John W. Redelfs wrote: After much pondering, Jon Spencer favored us with: I know that you are being facetious here, but I truly hope that this is not your dream. If this were to happen, you would lose all of your sacred privileges and rights, and the US would be overtaken by the criminals among us, including those who would like to redistribute your vast wealth. Our government threatens our liberties more than any terrorists. Over a generation ago it became a rogue state exceeding its Constitutional authority. It is out of control. A wise man once said, The government which governs the least governs the best. I was not being facetious. The capital of our nation should be in Jackson County, not Washington, D. C. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
Collateral damage would take on a whole new meaning! Jon Steven Montgomery wrote: Not only that but what about the innocents who would undoubtedly lose their lives in such an attack? -- Steven Montgomery At 10:09 AM 11/8/2002, you wrote: You weren't attacked by a nation. That's the problem. Paul Osborne wrote: Actually he admitted it on a videotape played on Al-Jezeera television, out of Doha, Qatar, the day after. He'd prepared the video ahead of time, so there's not much doubt. Right. And, I'm in favor of nuclear strikes if necessary--if that's what it takes to knock out those people that support terrorism. And, I'm not kidding either. We should have just nuked those mountains instead of wasting time going up there to shoot them. We should demonstrate that an attack on US soil will be met with the greatest of force. Then, these punky nations will learn to fear us and police themselves a little better. Bomb em, nuke em-- and let em have it! And, I predict that Iraq is about to get it really good. You'll see. They deserve it too. Paul O / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
Well, we know that at one point there will be seven sisters for each brother. So there will be at least 8 people left. But wait! There will be two apostles, which means there must be at least on President, so that's 3 guys plus 21 gals - 28 people. And remember, whoever gives his life for me will be saved. Jon Stacy Smith wrote: I agree, but no matter what we do we will be overrun. I don't know if I agree with the prevailing LDS sentiment that we will prevail, either. I suppose one has to ask what is meant by prevail. If you mean win but only with a tiny fraction of people left, I don't really call that winning. Stacy. At 10:04 AM 11/08/2002 -0900, you wrote: After much pondering, Jon Spencer favored us with: I can respect your opposition to the way things are going, and part of me agrees with you - but only part. I hope, along with you, that your prognostications are not correct. But PLEASE don't go so far over the edge in stating the reasons for your opposition. It scares me! You are supposed to be one of the sane ones. It is not a political issue. It is a moral issue. America is the aggressor because Afghanistan and Iraq are on the other side of the world. How is that for being concise? / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Governing the Least
I do not want to see the U.S. destroyed. I just know that it will be. Since I'd like to spend what remains of my mortal existence in relative comfort, I hope I am dead before much of these events take place. Stacy. At 04:22 PM 11/08/2002 -0500, you wrote: OK, I'll go with your last statement. But you said you would like to see the destruction of the US capital. That is what I was responding to. If you think that would not be a problem, go live in Saudi Arabia and try to go on an exchange to see some Saudi investigators! Jon John W. Redelfs wrote: After much pondering, Jon Spencer favored us with: I know that you are being facetious here, but I truly hope that this is not your dream. If this were to happen, you would lose all of your sacred privileges and rights, and the US would be overtaken by the criminals among us, including those who would like to redistribute your vast wealth. Our government threatens our liberties more than any terrorists. Over a generation ago it became a rogue state exceeding its Constitutional authority. It is out of control. A wise man once said, The government which governs the least governs the best. I was not being facetious. The capital of our nation should be in Jackson County, not Washington, D. C. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
And we're diggin' as fast as we can, right? :-) Jon John W. Redelfs wrote: We already have the moral low ground. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
If I can't understand how eight people survived after the ark, how will I be able to understand only 28? Suppose some of those 28 are handicapped? Stacy. At 04:27 PM 11/08/2002 -0500, you wrote: Well, we know that at one point there will be seven sisters for each brother. So there will be at least 8 people left. But wait! There will be two apostles, which means there must be at least on President, so that's 3 guys plus 21 gals - 28 people. And remember, whoever gives his life for me will be saved. Jon Stacy Smith wrote: I agree, but no matter what we do we will be overrun. I don't know if I agree with the prevailing LDS sentiment that we will prevail, either. I suppose one has to ask what is meant by prevail. If you mean win but only with a tiny fraction of people left, I don't really call that winning. Stacy. At 10:04 AM 11/08/2002 -0900, you wrote: After much pondering, Jon Spencer favored us with: I can respect your opposition to the way things are going, and part of me agrees with you - but only part. I hope, along with you, that your prognostications are not correct. But PLEASE don't go so far over the edge in stating the reasons for your opposition. It scares me! You are supposed to be one of the sane ones. It is not a political issue. It is a moral issue. America is the aggressor because Afghanistan and Iraq are on the other side of the world. How is that for being concise? / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] War Against All of Islam
Don't forget that when we started WW II we were pretty much a righteous nation. I frankly don't see how we can really carry on our battles with these people when they aren't any more righteous than the majority of the nation. Stacy. At 04:36 PM 11/08/2002 -0500, you wrote: Ah, but I would (be so sure of that)! You see, unlike some on this list, I am willing to be led by President Bush. I believe that he is honest and sincere, and that he is no idiot. I don't take everything as gospel, and I don't agree with some of what he wants to do, but he will not lead us into untenable situations. He has reached agreements with the Ruskies and the French and the Chinese and the Syrians and other interested parties, all behind the scenes. Saddam is toast. By the way, to offset all the history revisionists, if you remember, under Bush 41 we acted FIRST, and then built a coalition, not the other way around. Does anyone need the history lesson, or do you remember now? (Dan, I'm not saying you said this, it just popped into my mind as a result of this post.) Jon Dan R Allen wrote: Jon: It wouldn't matter if they did - they wouldn't honor them. Especially considering their votes today in the UN. Dan: I wouldn't be so sure of that... / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
Right. Uh huh. Sure. I don't think so. There was no credible threat of the use nukes by the US in the Korean War, and no threat whatsoever, other than accusations of such from the left, during the Gulf War. Jon Mark Gregson wrote: When did we ever issue a real threat to use nukes since WWII? Korean War and Gulf War. (Unless you consider a real threat to be only a case where the US was minutes away from pulling the trigger.) / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
The Lord will restore them to perfect bodies if needed. He's a really nice guy, I hear. Or perhaps they will have gifts or powers that renders their disability irrelevant. Jon Stacy Smith wrote: If I can't understand how eight people survived after the ark, how will I be able to understand only 28? Suppose some of those 28 are handicapped? Stacy. At 04:27 PM 11/08/2002 -0500, you wrote: Well, we know that at one point there will be seven sisters for each brother. So there will be at least 8 people left. But wait! There will be two apostles, which means there must be at least on President, so that's 3 guys plus 21 gals - 28 people. And remember, whoever gives his life for me will be saved. Jon / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
Yes, but merely in terms of numbers, I guess I was thinking that there wouldn't be too many desirables around to date, etc. How about cooking? We probably would all have to hunt as plant life would not survive nuclear attack. Those were the kinds of things I was thinking about. Or are you thinking we could have manna again? I guess that's a possibility. I guess I'm saying it wouldn't be a very desirable world. Stacy. At 04:52 PM 11/08/2002 -0500, you wrote: The Lord will restore them to perfect bodies if needed. He's a really nice guy, I hear. Or perhaps they will have gifts or powers that renders their disability irrelevant. Jon Stacy Smith wrote: If I can't understand how eight people survived after the ark, how will I be able to understand only 28? Suppose some of those 28 are handicapped? Stacy. At 04:27 PM 11/08/2002 -0500, you wrote: Well, we know that at one point there will be seven sisters for each brother. So there will be at least 8 people left. But wait! There will be two apostles, which means there must be at least on President, so that's 3 guys plus 21 gals - 28 people. And remember, whoever gives his life for me will be saved. Jon / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
In one sense -the temporal one - I agree with you. I understand that you are blind. To me, that would be devastating at first. I would hope that I could learn to cope. But I do believe that no matter how hard things were, it would be somehow fulfilling to be a part of the final struggle, so long as I had a firm hold on my testimony of the gospel, with a firm knowledge that I would be rejoined with my family. I wouldn't ask for it - I sort of like my relatively cushy life (:-) - but I would do what the Lord asked (so long as I didn't have to give up my French Shriner shoes - I have worn them and nothing else now for about 24 years, even thought the brand name keeps changing). There is something very satisfying about fighting for what is right, regardless of the consequences the world tries to give you. If the Spirit is there by your side, I know that you can accomplish anything the Lord asks you to do. Jon Stacy Smith wrote: Yes, but merely in terms of numbers, I guess I was thinking that there wouldn't be too many desirables around to date, etc. How about cooking? We probably would all have to hunt as plant life would not survive nuclear attack. Those were the kinds of things I was thinking about. Or are you thinking we could have manna again? I guess that's a possibility. I guess I'm saying it wouldn't be a very desirable world. Stacy. At 04:52 PM 11/08/2002 -0500, you wrote: The Lord will restore them to perfect bodies if needed. He's a really nice guy, I hear. Or perhaps they will have gifts or powers that renders their disability irrelevant. Jon Stacy Smith wrote: If I can't understand how eight people survived after the ark, how will I be able to understand only 28? Suppose some of those 28 are handicapped? Stacy. At 04:27 PM 11/08/2002 -0500, you wrote: Well, we know that at one point there will be seven sisters for each brother. So there will be at least 8 people left. But wait! There will be two apostles, which means there must be at least on President, so that's 3 guys plus 21 gals - 28 people. And remember, whoever gives his life for me will be saved. Jon /// // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// /// // --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] War Against All of Islam
Jon: Ah, but I would (be so sure of that)! You see, unlike some on this list, I am willing to be led by President Bush. I believe that he is honest and sincere, and that he is no idiot. I don't take everything as gospel, and I don't agree with some of what he wants to do, but he will not lead us into untenable situations. Dan: As do I, although I'm not so sure that won't lead us into untenable situations - mainly because his decisions are only going to be as good as his sources. Jon: By the way, to offset all the history revisionists, if you remember, under Bush 41 we acted FIRST, and then built a coalition, not the other way around. Does anyone need the history lesson, or do you remember now? (Dan, I'm not saying you said this, it just popped into my mind as a result of this post.) Dan: What do you consider as first? IIRC, we did start troop movements, but the first bombs didn't drop until after the coalition was in place. Also, regarding the Russians; they agreed not to attack us outright, but did leave Russian owned anti-air equipment in Iraq for Saddam to use. True, it didn't help him much, but their compliance with the agreement was kinda halfhearted. I'm not suggesting that they will renege on their votes, but they are pretty skilled at skirting along the edges. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
Stacy: Yes, but merely in terms of numbers, I guess I was thinking that there wouldn't be too many desirables around to date, etc. How about cooking? We probably would all have to hunt as plant life would not survive nuclear attack. Those were the kinds of things I was thinking about. Or are you thinking we could have manna again? Dan: MRE's / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Best Books
Why do you suppose the Lord repeats himself so many times in commanding us to study words of wisdom out of the best books? Is he referring only to the scriptures? Or does he want us to seek out and read the best books in other fields? If I want to read a biology book, do I want to read a book that is merely good, or among the best? Or do I want to read the best one? And so it is in any field of interest. Reading one best book is worth reading dozens or even hundreds of others. Unfortunately, many people are too intellectually lazy to do the work necessary to find out which book is the best one. But over the long term it is worth it because one learns so much more from a best book. After the scriptures what is the best book on gospel doctrine? My present choice would be THE TEACHINGS OF THE PROPHET JOSEPH SMITH edited by Joseph Fielding Smith. I think that the MIRACLE OF FORGIVENESS by Spencer W. Kimball is a better and more important book, but it is more a book on practicing the religion than on doctrine. Some might object that it is impossible to determine a best book, that which book is best is in the eye of the beholder. It is a subjective evaluation. And so it is. So when I say best book, I mean in your opinion what is the best book? Ultimately the individual reader has to be the one to make that determination. To my way of thinking, it is a cop out to set aside the task of determining the best book just because someone else may have a different opinion. Determining a best book requires that a person be familiar with the literature, and know who are the most respected authors. One could consider drawing up a select list of among the best books, and then determine his own best book according to his own needs, personality and taste. This is just the way my mind works. Sometimes I am more interested in reading the stacks at a library than I am in reading any of the books. For me the bibliography at the end of a book is in some cases more interesting than the book itself. We always need to remember that a book written by a single author is a look into his mind and way of thinking. Even in the most math-like subjects, the author reveals himself by what he chose to include and what he chose to exclude. And some personalities reverberate more than others in our interpersonal relationships, so why should we not assume that the same chemistry is at work in our choice of an authors? I cannot say that Boyd K. Packer is the best speaker among the currently living apostles and prophets. But I can say that he is the best speaker by my judgement and criteria. And defending my choice could be an entertaining and educational experience. What do you think? What are some of the best books in your opinion? / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Best Books
Thomas S. Monson and Boyd K. Packer. Stacy. At 01:44 PM 11/08/2002 -0900, you wrote: Why do you suppose the Lord repeats himself so many times in commanding us to study words of wisdom out of the best books? Is he referring only to the scriptures? Or does he want us to seek out and read the best books in other fields? If I want to read a biology book, do I want to read a book that is merely good, or among the best? Or do I want to read the best one? And so it is in any field of interest. Reading one best book is worth reading dozens or even hundreds of others. Unfortunately, many people are too intellectually lazy to do the work necessary to find out which book is the best one. But over the long term it is worth it because one learns so much more from a best book. After the scriptures what is the best book on gospel doctrine? My present choice would be THE TEACHINGS OF THE PROPHET JOSEPH SMITH edited by Joseph Fielding Smith. I think that the MIRACLE OF FORGIVENESS by Spencer W. Kimball is a better and more important book, but it is more a book on practicing the religion than on doctrine. Some might object that it is impossible to determine a best book, that which book is best is in the eye of the beholder. It is a subjective evaluation. And so it is. So when I say best book, I mean in your opinion what is the best book? Ultimately the individual reader has to be the one to make that determination. To my way of thinking, it is a cop out to set aside the task of determining the best book just because someone else may have a different opinion. Determining a best book requires that a person be familiar with the literature, and know who are the most respected authors. One could consider drawing up a select list of among the best books, and then determine his own best book according to his own needs, personality and taste. This is just the way my mind works. Sometimes I am more interested in reading the stacks at a library than I am in reading any of the books. For me the bibliography at the end of a book is in some cases more interesting than the book itself. We always need to remember that a book written by a single author is a look into his mind and way of thinking. Even in the most math-like subjects, the author reveals himself by what he chose to include and what he chose to exclude. And some personalities reverberate more than others in our interpersonal relationships, so why should we not assume that the same chemistry is at work in our choice of an authors? I cannot say that Boyd K. Packer is the best speaker among the currently living apostles and prophets. But I can say that he is the best speaker by my judgement and criteria. And defending my choice could be an entertaining and educational experience. What do you think? What are some of the best books in your opinion? / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
Yes, I've started getting those. Stacy. At 03:26 PM 11/08/2002 -0700, you wrote: Stacy: Yes, but merely in terms of numbers, I guess I was thinking that there wouldn't be too many desirables around to date, etc. How about cooking? We probably would all have to hunt as plant life would not survive nuclear attack. Those were the kinds of things I was thinking about. Or are you thinking we could have manna again? Dan: MRE's / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] War Against All of Islam
I'd rather have Hinckley than Bush. Stacy. At 03:23 PM 11/08/2002 -0700, you wrote: Jon: Ah, but I would (be so sure of that)! You see, unlike some on this list, I am willing to be led by President Bush. I believe that he is honest and sincere, and that he is no idiot. I don't take everything as gospel, and I don't agree with some of what he wants to do, but he will not lead us into untenable situations. Dan: As do I, although I'm not so sure that won't lead us into untenable situations - mainly because his decisions are only going to be as good as his sources. Jon: By the way, to offset all the history revisionists, if you remember, under Bush 41 we acted FIRST, and then built a coalition, not the other way around. Does anyone need the history lesson, or do you remember now? (Dan, I'm not saying you said this, it just popped into my mind as a result of this post.) Dan: What do you consider as first? IIRC, we did start troop movements, but the first bombs didn't drop until after the coalition was in place. Also, regarding the Russians; they agreed not to attack us outright, but did leave Russian owned anti-air equipment in Iraq for Saddam to use. True, it didn't help him much, but their compliance with the agreement was kinda halfhearted. I'm not suggesting that they will renege on their votes, but they are pretty skilled at skirting along the edges. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
After much pondering, Jon Spencer favored us with: There is no other side of the world anymore, or hadn't you noticed. Of course, it is probably easier to get to North Carolina from Baghdad than from where you live, but I digress. :-) This is a cliche. Of course there is an other side of the world even today. Does every nation have long distance bombers or ICBMs? Can all nations afford virtually unlimited transportation technology? Do they all have great navys? Speaking as one who has had to severely limit his trips to the Lower Forty-eight because of exorbitant airfares, I can assure you that it is still a big world. It is just somewhat smaller than it used to be. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === Dad always thought laughter was the best medicine, which I guess is why several of us died of tuberculosis. --Jack Handy === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
After much pondering, Jon Spencer favored us with: I see nothing in the scriptures which says that we should not preemptively defend ourselves, and ONE HAS A VERY DIFFICULT TIME COMPARING NEPHITES SITUATIONS TO OUR CURRENT SITUATIONS. --- Any thoughts on this statement? --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Governing the Least
After much pondering, Stacy Smith favored us with: I do not want to see the U.S. destroyed. I just know that it will be. Since I'd like to spend what remains of my mortal existence in relative comfort, I hope I am dead before much of these events take place. I'm an adventurer. I want to live to see it all. My personal journal will be interesting reading. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] War Against All of Islam
After much pondering, Jon Spencer favored us with: Quite a jump there, JWR! You mentioned Russia and China, and I shot them down. That's all. And yes, I am quite certain, especially after today's UN vote, that not a single solitary country will join Iraq against us. You have no idea how that puts my mind at ease. I cannot tell you how glad I am that I live in a day when wars are carefully controlled events. It used to be that at the beginning of a war not even the top generals knew how it was going to progress. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === Dad always thought laughter was the best medicine, which I guess is why several of us died of tuberculosis. --Jack Handy === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Best Arguments on Evolution
By reading one book. No. Waidaminute. It was a trilogy. 4 books. Yeah, that's it Incidentally, I'm introducing a whole new generation to the wonders of Douglas Adams -- I've got a big, storybook edition of the trilogy to give my son for Christmas. Steven Montgomery wrote: It is! How did you find out? -- Steven Montgomery At 12:31 PM 11/8/2002, you wrote: He did. And I couldn't supply one. It's kind of like saying that the answer to life, the universe and everything is 42. Steven Montgomery wrote: I thought John asked for a single best source on the subject, both pro and con? grin -- Steven Montgomery At 10:43 AM 11/8/2002, you wrote: Strictly speaking, I honestly don't know, because I don't consider evolution to be a moral issue which one is converted to -- it's just a toolset for approaching one question on how the physical world works, like any other theory. You probably suspected I'd respond that way, but it's true. Also, it's difficult to give a succinct summary of such a complex theory in this kind of forum -- there's just too much that has to be taught in terms of principles, and I'm not sure I'm up to it. But in the *spirit* of your request... I wouldn't suggest this for a beginner, but the best and most up-to-date general actual textbook, meant for university courses, is probably the relatively new, but very long book that Stephen Jay Gould published just before he died, The Structure of Evolutionary Theory. (see http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/item.asp?Catalog=BooksSection=BooksCa t=Lang=enItem=978067400613mscssid=7EWCQDA2HCDH9N0KVA6BR44QDALM242AWSID=12118329ED39C4EC4ACA9E25931C6F6D34DA1308 for a description). I believe it's used at BYU for Zoology 475, which is the evolution course taught by Drs. Whiting and Jeffery this semester, from what I understand. (For the course's web site, from which you can also get the BYU package, see http://zoology.byu.edu/zool475/) If you're interested in apologetics in the sense of anti-creationism, the talk.origins website is one of the best on-line resources that I know of. http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs-qa.html -- they have some good FAQs on various topics. The best LDS book I've read, which has the advantage that it doesn't just cover evolution, but other scientific topics, including the Big Bang, is Clark, David L.; ed. Of Heaven and Earth: Reconciling Scientific Thought With LDS Theology (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1998). I have a review and some excerpts at: http://www.members.shaw.ca/mschindler/A/Of Heaven and Earth.htm There are two good books by non-LDS on the topic, and they have the advantage of being inexpensive paperbacks and not overly long and not overly technical: (Gould, the late well-known Harvard palaeontologist, described himself as a secular Jewish agnostic, but he's the one who coined the term Non-overlapping Magisteria (NOMA). He was not the first to refer to the concept, however -- I have citations from a RC cardinal who tried to help Galileo (who was his own worst enemy in many ways), and also, intriguingly, the 1931 letter from the Heber J. Grant 1Presidency to all GAs which is quoted in the article Evolution in the Encyclopedia of Mormonism. Miller is, I believe, Catholic, but definitely a believer. He's also a biochemist). Stephen Jay Gould, Rocks of Ages: Science and Religion in the Fullness of Life (New York: Ballantine Books, 1999). I'm reading this now and will post a review to my website when I'm finished. Miller, Kenneth. Finding Darwin's God: a Scientist's Search for Common Ground Between God and Evolution (New York: HarperCollins, 1999). (I have a review of this, along with some excerpts, on my website: http://www.members.shaw.ca/mschindler/A/miller.htm For an interesting essay by a Latter-day Saint on why some GAs have taught against evolution, see: http://www.whyprophets.com/prophets/evolution.htm (I like this because he agrees with me :-)). Seriously, he says there's a common conception of evolution which lay people have which is wrong and is a straw man. The GAs arguments have been, by and large, against this straw man, but Chris Tolworthy makes the argument that prophets can't always afford to let themselves get bogged down in detail and have to make a clear statement, and I agree with this (this is the flip side of being resistant to what I consider over-literalistic interpretation; it also allows me to incorporate things which might at first disturb me, like what I saw to be the flat-out ignorance of Pres. Smith's Man: His Origin and Destiny, as I put it to my senior home teaching companion at the time.) Ironically, one of the best lay explanations of evolution,
Re: [ZION] Best Arguments on Evolution
John, I don't mean to over-complicate your task, but just by coincidence, someone posted the following statement by the AAAS (who put out Science, the US competitor of Nature), on Eyring-L just within the past hour. It's a statement against intelligent design: http://www.aaas.org/news/releases/2002/1106id2.shtml I'm cc'ing Justin Hart on this, so if you want to get in touch with him for more resources on ID, I'm sure he'd be glad to help. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
Ouch! If they were radioactive do you think I'd want that? Unless the Lord intends everything that's brought by them to all of a sudden become free of radiation. That may be a bigger miracle than any prophet has ever seen happen. Stacy. At 02:11 PM 11/08/2002 -0900, you wrote: After much pondering, Stacy Smith favored us with: Or are you thinking we could have manna again? I guess that's a possibility. I guess I'm saying it wouldn't be a very desirable world. Maybe radioactive ravens could bring you morsels. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego
After much pondering, Stacy Smith favored us with: Going through this world as blind is challenge enough. Going through the same after nuclear attack I cannot fathom. I cannot but think that the organizational prowess of the Church would become even more obvious after any nuclear attack. Who knows, perhaps we would have to help form a new government after Washington, D.C. becomes a glass-lined, radioactive crater. Regardless, if Father in Heaven loves you as much as I suppose he does, his Son's church might be able to provide you with a more benign environment than you think. Just as clothing provides us with a micro climate in places far from the tropics, I'm sure that God could help us achieve a micro environment in a radioactive and violent world. My friend Mike George--are you there, Mike?--is determined to live in the Los Angeles area. I keep trying to get him to move out of so obvious a nuclear target. He has stopped my mouth by pointing out that if God can protect Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego in the fiery furnace, then he can protect Mike George in the middle of a nuclear fireball. What can I say to that? grin Of course, I realize that for some of you this is just a children's bedtime story designed to illustrate a true principle that God can protect us no matter what the peril. It did not literally happen, right? / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
Try buying one of those military special gliders that one runs on one's back or whatever. Stacy. At 01:55 PM 11/08/2002 -0900, you wrote: After much pondering, Jon Spencer favored us with: There is no other side of the world anymore, or hadn't you noticed. Of course, it is probably easier to get to North Carolina from Baghdad than from where you live, but I digress. :-) This is a cliche. Of course there is an other side of the world even today. Does every nation have long distance bombers or ICBMs? Can all nations afford virtually unlimited transportation technology? Do they all have great navys? Speaking as one who has had to severely limit his trips to the Lower Forty-eight because of exorbitant airfares, I can assure you that it is still a big world. It is just somewhat smaller than it used to be. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === Dad always thought laughter was the best medicine, which I guess is why several of us died of tuberculosis. --Jack Handy === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
Jon Spencer wrote: I do not believe that you can use the WWII use of nukes as a precedent for any action today, unless we were again at that decision point. It is quite clear that the use of nukes in WWII saved many lives, both Japanese and American. When did we ever issue a real threat to use nukes since WWII? Since the Cuban crisis (which we've discussed before), I am not aware of the US making any such threat, but there are two issues that Arab countries in particular have. The first is one that all non-US countries share: the US's refusal to forego the right to first strike, and the one that's unique to the Middle East is the help that the US has given to Israel, which is a non-public nuclear state. Israel, too, has ignored a number of UN resolutions, and many Arabs see the US as being hypocritical in this regard. I'm not saying I necessarily agree with them -- am just pointing out the concern. As far as I know, other than some rumored clandestine close calls, the only serious threat of using nukes occurred in the 60's in the Cuban missile showdown. Our dear friend Castro, the same one how was recently cheered in Harlem, demanded that the Soviet commander use the tactical nukes. He supposedly almost did, but obviously they were not used. This brings up an interesting point, namely, if al Qaeda gets a nuke from some rogue country, or one of the floating Soviet nukes, and uses it, whom would we retaliate against? My best guess is that we would not retaliate (at least President Bush wouldn't, nor would anyone else currently likely to occupy the Presidency). I think the most imminent threat isn't from a conventional nuke but from so-called dirty bombs, which are conventional explosives packed with a messy radioactive substance such as caesium (which is a powder in natural form). This is one of the reasons it is so important to (1) get rid of Saddam, (2) bring North Korea into line, (3) assist he Russians to make a major effort to find all their nukes, (4) aggressively protect our borders, and (5) aggressively pursue any and all international terrorist threats. We do not have the luxury of sitting around playing peace. All of this can be done without trampling on what both John and I consider to be inalienable rights. I also disagree with your last statement about war. The Church stays out of things like that. We are obligated to protect ourselves. We do not need direction in all things. I see nothing in the scriptures which says that we should not preemptively defend ourselves, and one has a very difficult time comparing Nephites situations to our current situations. Yes, war is a serious issue. But I will promise you, if there were a group of thugs in Cary (the next town over from Apex, where I live), and they were making plans to attack me in a manner that I could not defend against, I would preemptively move against them. I fell sorry for anyone who would not. Jon Mark Gregson wrote: I believe that sometime soon, someone will use a tactical nuke to take out a carrier battlegroup - they have no other way of doing it. If we were to use nukes now, then we would create a situation where we had sowed the seeds of our own loss. We would have the moral low ground when that event occurs. Once the nukes start getting tossed around it won't matter who was the first to use them because everyone will be using them as just another conventional weapon. There won't be any moral high ground, just as there is no moral high ground right now in the use of tanks, planes, ships, artillery, grenades, rifles and so on. Anyway, the US has already used nukes in war and has also threatened further use so the precendent is set. Anyone using nukes in battle will justify themselves on the US precedent. It won't matter if you agree with them or not, they will use that justification. Not that justification has much to do with anything. The nukes will kill lots of people with or without it and the response will be extremely hard to limit. The genie came out of the bottle in about 1939 when the US decided to work on the bomb. (Well, of course the moral high ground is to not wage war except as specified by scripture and revelation.) / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.
Re: [ZION] Best Arguments on Evolution
After much pondering, Marc A. Schindler favored us with: I'm cc'ing Justin Hart on this, so if you want to get in touch with him for more resources on ID, I'm sure he'd be glad to help. I'm going to do a little survey reading first, then maybe I'll have you put me in touch with him. I'm so bipolar many of my project don't get off the ground. I would hate to waste his time. John W. Redelfs[EMAIL PROTECTED] = To me, clowns aren't funny. In fact, they're kind of scary. I've wondered where this started and I think it goes back to the time I went to the circus, and a clown killed my dad. --Jack Handy = All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Governing the Least
After much pondering, Stacy Smith favored us with: I don't necessarily feel unrighteous for not wanting to see it all. As I recall, not all of the disciples wanted to tarry until the Lord comes either. I don't think you are unrighteous for your desire. It is more prudent. I am just a more flamboyant, wild and crazy adventurer than you are. Maybe that is part of why I live in roadless Alaska among grizzlies, wolves, ravens and eagles. I'm 700 miles north of Seattle, and 700 miles south of Anchorage, the only two cities of any size in the area. Another part of why I'm hear is because I want to minimize my chances of being at ground zero with the nukes start to rain from the heavens, or bellow forth from Mini-Storage down the street. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === You know what would make a good story? Something about a clown who make people happy, but inside he's real sad. Also, he has severe diarrhea. --Jack Handy === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
Right. Uh huh. Sure. I don't think so. There was no credible threat of the use nukes by the US in the Korean War, and no threat whatsoever, other than accusations of such from the left, during the Gulf War. I heard President George Bush state at the beginning of the Gulf War that the US had not ruled out the use of nukes in that war. That is a credible threat in my opinion. The threat in the Korean War was even more direct: http://www.centurychina.com/history/faq7.shtml On May 19 1953, the Joint Chiefs recommended direct air and naval operations against China, including the use of nuclear weapons. The National Security Council endorsed the JCS recommendation the next day. Dulles, the Secretary of State was visiting India and told Nehru to deliver a message to Zhou Enlai: if peace was not speedily attained, the United States would begin to bomb north of Yalu, and US had recently tested atomic shells. = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- ___ Get your free email from http://mymail.operamail.com Powered by Outblaze / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] War Against All of Islam
Jon Spencer wrote: Quite a jump there, JWR! You mentioned Russia and China, and I shot them down. That's all. And yes, I am quite certain, especially after today's UN vote, that not a single solitary country will join Iraq against us. That is absolutely correct. I don't think that was ever in question. The issue was who would *join* with you. That still remains to be seen. But I still have this prognostication hanging out there which says that once the mid-term elections were over, the pressure would ease, and there'll be no war. We'll see if I'm right, I guess. Jon John W. Redelfs asked: After much pondering, Jon Spencer favored us with: It wouldn't matter if they did - they wouldn't honor them. Especially considering their votes today in the UN. So you are absolutely sure that if we attack Iraq that no other country will get involved against us, is that right? --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
...with sarcasm. Not to be taken seriously. Jon Spencer wrote: When logic fails, attack! :-) Jon Marc A. Schindler wrote: If it's so smart, then you won't mind giving it all your money. Obviously it knows what to do with it better than you do. ;-) Paul Osborne wrote: After much pondering, Paul Osborne favored us with: The President of the United States and US intelligence has determined that he is guilty. Case closed. Just hope they don't find you guilty of anything without evidence. --JWR The US government is not that broken John. It is without a doubt the smartest entity on earth. Paul O / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Best Arguments on Evolution
You're straining at a camel here. And quoting out of context. I would encourage people to read the first link, which is a detailed obituary of Gould. It shows the opposite of what you contend: he challenged the mainstream, but his ideas are now part of the New Synthesis. Here's another quote from the same article: [The Structure of Evolutionary Theory] is a heavyweight work, wrote Dr. Mark Ridley, evolutionary biologist at University of Oxford in England. And despite sometimes almost pathological logorrhea at 1,433 pages, it is still a magnificent summary of a quarter-century of influential thinking and a major publishing event in evolutionary biology. Note that the critical remarks are dated. Williams is the guy who coined the term god gene and is indeed a senior, but dated, figure in evolution, and his criticism of Gould is also dated, and somewhat dismissive because I believe he's envious of Gould, and he also doesn't like Gould's idea of NOMA (neither does Dawkins, incidentally, nor E. O. Wilson, all of whom are evangelizing atheists whereas Gould insisted that the only intellectually honest philosophy was agnosticism). Dawkins has far surpassed him in reputation. The place to go for information on the politics of the science is the discussion groups on talkorigins, not just by doing random google searches :-/ Miller is also another enemy of Williams, incidentally. Dawkins, too. I've read 2 of Dawkins' books and have 2 more to read, and I like the way he explains the principles of evolution, but I don't agree with his philosophical approach. He wrote what I consider to be a really weaselly reader review of Miller's book on amazon.com, signing it, R. Dawkins, as if he were merely some anonymous reader. It was the equivalent of scientific graffiti, imo. That's one thing to keep in mind, too, and it's something that complicates science: the politics involved is intense, just as it is in any other human endeavour. That's one reason to keep in mind that it's not an alternative to religion (regardles of what Williams, Wilson and Dawkins say), but just a tool set for understanding how the physical world works. And it's always subject to change. Just like John's opinions ;-) I'll give you another example or two. Isaac Asimov (who was also an atheist, not merely an agnostic, incidentally -- I actually corresponded personally with him in the early 70s about creationism, but he was public about this stance, too) was well-known, of course, for being a SF writer and for being a popularizer of science. He wrote literally hundreds of books (even commentaries on Shakespeare* and the Bible, believe it or not), and had a Ph.D. in biochemistry, iirc. But he never practised biochemistry and was not taken seriously as an academic, any more than *I* might be taken seriously, despite what I might or might not know. There's a place for dilettantes as go-betweens (they make good science journalists, for one thing, and I'm sorry more science journalists aren't actually educated in science) but they're not academics, and that goes for Asimov, too. Gould and Sagan both suffered a bit from this, too, except that both actually *practised* science and were not mere dilettantes. Here in Canada, David Suzuki is somewhere in between. He used to practise genetics but I think he's been a full-time green activisit for several decades now. Our own David Schindler (no relation) at the U. of A. is a better example -- he's a practising ecologist and knows whereof he speaks. I'm sure you've heard him on the radio (Mark; no one else here gets Canadian radio, I wouldn't think, unless Bonnie's still around). *which my daughter has on permanent loan from me. I was just over there yesterday with Cathy, picking up our grand-daughter for the night, and noticed it in their bookcase. Incidentally, the closest we have to LDS scientists, who are believing active members, and know something about evolution, and have written on the topic, would be, besides the profs at BYU I've already mentioned, David H. Bailey, who has written a fair bit on science and the Gospel, Brian Rhees (a biology prof), Richley Crapo (an anthropologist at Utah State), Philip Low (soil scientist at Purdue), Bart Kowallis (geology prof at BYU), the late Henry Eyring (father of the current apostle, and brother in law of SWK, who was very diplomatic in public, but in correspondence with the commissioner of Church education, when Man: His Origin and Destiny came out, he tore it to shreds in very straightforward language; Eyring was at one point president of the National Academy of Science in the US), Wilford Gardner (another soil scientist, UC Berkeley), Raymond Ethington (who converted to the Gospel as a grad student and teaches palaeontology at U of Missouri and is editor of the journal Journal of Palaeontology) and one or two others. These come to mind, so are just a sprinkling of the ones I can think of offhand. I know
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
Mark Gregson wrote: It is quite clear that the use of nukes in WWII saved many lives, both Japanese and American. I've already explained on this list some years ago that the nukes did not end the war. You can disbelieve it, but it's best not to read what actually happened in Japan if you want to maintain that belief. When did we ever issue a real threat to use nukes since WWII? Korean War and Gulf War. I won't disagree with you because I honestly don't know. But at what point in each of these conflicts was there a threat to use nukes? (Unless you consider a real threat to be only a case where the US was minutes away from pulling the trigger.) This brings up an interesting point, namely, if al Qaeda gets a nuke from some rogue country, or one of the floating Soviet nukes, and uses it, whom would we retaliate against? My best guess is that we would not retaliate Yes, I've wondered about that, too. When (not if) Manhatten is nuked, what will the US response be? I assume that it will be by terrorists. Personally I think they'll broaden their attacks. They won't be just against the U.S. anymore. I also disagree with your last statement about war. The Church stays out of things like that. No, as already posted on this list the Church leaders have made statements about the rightness of specific wars. In general ways. But you and I are, I think, in agreement about this, so I won't say anything more. I guess I've contaminated you, or were you always a pinko socialist isolationist Canuck? grin As to what the scriptures say about it, well, that's been hotly deliberated for weeks on this list. We will have to agree to disagree. = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
[ZION] War against all of Islam
But sometimes one must stand up for what is right. Capt Moroni didn't back down from the threat of the kingmen. He could have rolled over, fearing war, and allowed the free republic they had become a kingdom. But he realized that freedom, religion, and their families were more important than keeping the peace. We tried staying out of WWI and WWII. Instead, we found that the longer we stayed out, the more entrenched the enemy became. It would have been much easier to defeat Japan and Germany while they were still within their own national boundaries. Maintaining the Phillipine Islands would have been easier than retaking it. And so it was with all those other islands we recovered. Do we wait until Islam engulfs the nations and becomes a giant threat, before we encourage it to stand down and live peacefully among the nations of the world? Or do we step in early, while it is easier? Pres Hinckley, speaking about children, told a story of a tree he planted. Years later it was growing crooked, and he couldn't work it, even with a wench. So he had to cut a major branch off. Had he watched it when it was young, a little string would have corrected it. I'm not saying we need to be Mom and Pop to all the world, but we need to watch for global threats and be ready to nip them in the bud, or else have even more dangerous conflicts later on. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe I basically believe we will attack and they in turn attack us. We will then incite the entire Islamic world and all will turn against us. Stacy. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] George III continues the tradition of malleable truth
I was listening to talk radio today, and they played some stuff from last night's FrontLine (PBS). They had a newsman slip into Iraq and he was interviewing people. They were describing the slaughters going on there. One woman said that her village was forced to an execution. They had to watch 15 women being beheaded by sword. Only a couple were prostitutes, most were doctors and school teachers. I think that in the long run, the majority of Iraqis (especially the women) will be as happy to have us come as did the Afghani women. Today we finished rebuilding a school for girls in one of the major Afghan cities. It has been closed since the Taliban took over. Afghanistan has one of the largest death rates for child bearing (7 in 100), because women aren't allowed to see doctors. We are training dozens of midwives to help inthe deliveries. I'd say that we are saving many of these people, just as we saved Europe from itself in WWII. Thanks to us, Europe is primarily democratic and the people live decent lives. This is now beginning to occur in Russia and Eastern Europe. And perhaps we can export it to more of the world as we fight terrorism (which I am convinced Saddam is involved with). You'll note that Pres Bush has been working with the UN, and in fact the UN Security Council voted unanimously today (including Syria). That definitely shows that Pres Bush is speaking tough in order to get the rest of the world to move a little, yet he's still compromising with them. Iraq now has a month to disarm, or the UN can take action. I think that is very fair. In WWII, we had to fight on several fronts. We didn't just attack Japan and leave Germany and Italy alone until we finished with Japan. We fought them all at once. We still have things to do in Afghanistan, but that doesn't mean we aren't ready to select additional targets in the war of terrorism. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Liberal dems unveil...
Senator Peolosi from San Francisco is being groomed to take over the top of the Dem heap in the Congress, while many of the other rats abandon the sinking ship. Appears that she doesn't even attempt to hide her whacked-out leftist socialist feminazi idealism. Near as I can tell, she is an icon for everything that disgusted me about the Clintonistas. In other words, the perfect model to represent Demoncratic leadership in US politics. It will be truly gratifying if such openly radical nuts dominate in the new Democrat organization. Then they can vent their angst over irrelevant non-issues like equal pay for women and human rights in China, while the real leadership addresses substantive matters. --- Mij Ebaboc / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?
Paul points out that these types of miracles tend to accompany the very beginning of a new dispensation, but then are inappropriate (when you read all of I Corinthians 13 you'll see that he's saying that signs and miracles aren't as important at that point than Christlike love). I think we see that now, too. What would happen if an elderly lady stood up in your next fast testimony meeting and started talking in tongues? I dare say the bishop would call 911. Dan R Allen wrote: After much pondering, Dan R Allen favored us with: I'm saying that it should not be absolutely _necessary_ for God to have parted the Red Sea, a'la Charlton Heston, to have a testimony that He guided the Israelites across it. The fact that He helped them cross the Red Sea is literal, but the exact means described may or may not be symbolic, and shouldn't be the basis for a testimony of His power. Could He have done it? Without a doubt. Was it absolutely necessary for Him to prove His power to the Israelites in that specific way? Perhaps for them, but not for me. John: How do you apply this reasoning to Jesus calling Lazarus forth from his tomb, or raising the daughter of Jairus? Maybe these two were not really dead, but by the power of God they recovered while if it hadn't been for the blessing they would have died? Is that what you believe? I personally believe that God performs miracles just like the parting of the Red Sea in our own day. I predict we will be able to see those miracles in profusion as this last dispensation draws to a close. If an all out germ war ever occurs, there will be people dying everywhere of diseases for which there is no cure and which are 100 percent fatal. In that day, the priesthood will have to perform healing blessing far more miraculous than are the norm in our own day. Why? Because in the economy of God's dealings with man, he is not accustomed to doing for man what man can do for himself with a little divine help. After all, it was the Lord who inspired the current medical technology. Why shouldn't he expect us to use it so far as we can? Dan: Would they have been any less dead at that time then if modern medicine might have shown some spark of life? Would what Jesus did be any less of a miracle? I don't think so. In any case, we are arguing two different things here. I believe that God performs miracles today to John, but where are the explicit examples of miracles like the Red Sea and Jericho today? The closest examples I know of are the exodus from Nauvoo and the crickets. In both cases the way He chose to act is much more subtle than that described in the Old Testament. Why? Are we somehow less deserving of such a miracle today than they were then? Again, I don't think so. You actually hint at a pretty good answer to your challenge with this statement: Because in the economy of God's dealings with man, he is not accustomed to doing for man what man can do for himself with a little divine help. Why did God cause a late freeze when a simple parting of the waters would have worked just as well? But getting back to what made me get into this discussion in the first place; Why should somebody's testimony, presumably given to them by the Holy Ghost, rest on the interpretation of an ancient event as symbolic or literal? Your argument that it must, or all is false, doesn't really hold water because it must be based on the totally accurate translation of an ancient manuscript at the hands of clearly fallible men. John: What about the inventions of nuclear fission bombs? Can anyone deny that it was a technological leap forward of such an order as to seem like pure science fiction to all those who lived and died in the pre-atomic era? How about the Internet? These miracles are just as astounding as anything described in the Old Testament. Dan: They were certainly technological leaps, but I wouldn't classify them as miracles. John: If deBakey had lived in Christ's time and performed a heart transplant on one side of the stage while Jesus commanded Lazarus to come forth on the other side, which of the two would be thought to have performed the more miraculous feat? Dan: I would have thought Jesus did - He didn't need to make such a bloody mess doing it. John: I feel bad for people who are so adult that they no longer have the wonder and belief that they had when they were children. I am a man who lives in a world of miracles past, present and future. I believe all these things because I choose to. It fills my heart with joy to believe them. Dan: I too live in a world of miracles. Feeling the touch of the Holy Ghost as I lay my hands on my child's head and bless them with the strength to overcome a virus, and sleep calmly through the night - now _that_ is a miracle. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// ///
Re: [ZION] War Against All of Islam
Jon Spencer wrote: By the way, to offset all the history revisionists, if you remember, under Bush 41 we acted FIRST, and then built a coalition, not the other way around. Does anyone need the history lesson, or do you remember now? (Dan, I'm not saying you said this, it just popped into my mind as a result of this post.) Really? Then how did all those British, Canadian, Australian, Egyptian, Saudi, Omani, UAE-ese, Turkish, French, lessee, Qatari, Yemeni troops, planes, and ships get there along with the US forces? Do you know who the Commander in Chief of Desert Storm was? I have the whole order of battle on my bookshelf. Jon -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
[ZION] Mother Young's Baby Stories
Bible stories that Mother Young taught to Brigham when he was a child may be the stumbling block of those who read the scriptures with a traditional approach. But Brigham's word on this matter doesn't seem to be exactly as we might have been led to believe. In context, his disparaging remarks about literal interpretation of scriptures appear to be very specific, pointed at distancing mormon theology from traditional Christian views, not necessarily addressing as broad a topic as considering the literal interpretation of scripture. Some of you may doubt the truth of what I now say, and argue that the Lord could teach him. This is a mistake. The Lord could not have taught him in any other way than in the way in which He did teach him. You believe Adam was made of the dust of this earth. This I do not believe, though it is supposed that it is so written in the Bible; but it is not, to my understanding. You can write that information to the States, if you pleasethat I have publicly declared that I do not believe that portion of the Bible as the Christian world do. I never did, and I never want to. What is the reason I do not? Because I have come to understanding, and banished from my mind all the stories my mother taught me when I was a child. But suppose Adam was made and fashioned the same as we make adobies; if he had never drunk of the bitter cup, the Lord might have talked to him to this day, and he would have continued as he was to all eternity, never advancing one particle in the school of intelligence. This idea opens up a field of light to the intelligent mind. How can you know truth but by its opposite, or light but by its opposite? The absence of light is darkness. How can sweetness be known but by its opposite, bitter? It is by this means that we obtain all intelligence. This is Mormonism, and it is founded upon all truth, upon every principle of true philosophy; in fact the Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true philosophy in existence. There is not one particle of it that is not strictly philosophical, though you and I may not understand all the fulness of it, but we will if we continue faithful. (Journal of Discourses, 26 vols. [London: Latter-day Saints' Book Depot, 1854-1886], 2: 7.) / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
Thanks for that -- I wasn't aware of this. I'm not surprised that it involved China, actually. Mark Gregson wrote: Right. Uh huh. Sure. I don't think so. There was no credible threat of the use nukes by the US in the Korean War, and no threat whatsoever, other than accusations of such from the left, during the Gulf War. I heard President George Bush state at the beginning of the Gulf War that the US had not ruled out the use of nukes in that war. That is a credible threat in my opinion. The threat in the Korean War was even more direct: http://www.centurychina.com/history/faq7.shtml On May 19 1953, the Joint Chiefs recommended direct air and naval operations against China, including the use of nuclear weapons. The National Security Council endorsed the JCS recommendation the next day. Dulles, the Secretary of State was visiting India and told Nehru to deliver a message to Zhou Enlai: if peace was not speedily attained, the United States would begin to bomb north of Yalu, and US had recently tested atomic shells. = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- ___ Get your free email from http://mymail.operamail.com Powered by Outblaze / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Best Arguments on Evolution
Fair enough. I know what you mean about projects -- I'm rather like that myself, as it happens. But you'll find Justin a real gentleman and quite helpful. He and I have politely agreed to disagree, but we work together at FAIR in apologetics work (in fact, I got him involved after reading one of his articles in Meridian magazine). John W. Redelfs wrote: After much pondering, Marc A. Schindler favored us with: I'm cc'ing Justin Hart on this, so if you want to get in touch with him for more resources on ID, I'm sure he'd be glad to help. I'm going to do a little survey reading first, then maybe I'll have you put me in touch with him. I'm so bipolar many of my project don't get off the ground. I would hate to waste his time. John W. Redelfs[EMAIL PROTECTED] = To me, clowns aren't funny. In fact, they're kind of scary. I've wondered where this started and I think it goes back to the time I went to the circus, and a clown killed my dad. --Jack Handy = All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] George III continues the tradition of malleable truth
Whaddya mean we? Actually the UN and European aid agencies from Sweden, Norway and the Netherlands in particular are the ones who have been building the schools and training doctors. And Medecins sans Frontieres is not a US agency so far as I know. You're helping, yes, but spread a bit of credit around where it belongs. Gary Smith wrote: I was listening to talk radio today, and they played some stuff from last night's FrontLine (PBS). They had a newsman slip into Iraq and he was interviewing people. They were describing the slaughters going on there. One woman said that her village was forced to an execution. They had to watch 15 women being beheaded by sword. Only a couple were prostitutes, most were doctors and school teachers. I think that in the long run, the majority of Iraqis (especially the women) will be as happy to have us come as did the Afghani women. Today we finished rebuilding a school for girls in one of the major Afghan cities. It has been closed since the Taliban took over. Afghanistan has one of the largest death rates for child bearing (7 in 100), because women aren't allowed to see doctors. We are training dozens of midwives to help inthe deliveries. I'd say that we are saving many of these people, just as we saved Europe from itself in WWII. Thanks to us, Europe is primarily democratic and the people live decent lives. This is now beginning to occur in Russia and Eastern Europe. And perhaps we can export it to more of the world as we fight terrorism (which I am convinced Saddam is involved with). You'll note that Pres Bush has been working with the UN, and in fact the UN Security Council voted unanimously today (including Syria). That definitely shows that Pres Bush is speaking tough in order to get the rest of the world to move a little, yet he's still compromising with them. Iraq now has a month to disarm, or the UN can take action. I think that is very fair. In WWII, we had to fight on several fronts. We didn't just attack Japan and leave Germany and Italy alone until we finished with Japan. We fought them all at once. We still have things to do in Afghanistan, but that doesn't mean we aren't ready to select additional targets in the war of terrorism. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
RE: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?
Marc A. Schindler wrote: --- What would happen if an elderly lady stood up in your next fast testimony meeting and started talking in tongues? --- Unworthy soul that I am, nonetheless I believe I would weep for joy. This really is a hypothetical, sadly enough. We apparently are not currently faithful enough to commonly enjoy such precious manifestations of the Spirit in our testimony meetings. This is simply a generalization of the notion I posited earler in repsonse to this thread: As a people, we are not blessed to understand the scriptures because we fail to study them faithfully. --- Mij Ebaboc / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Liberal dems unveil...
If I were you, I'd be more worried about what might happen if Administration policies fail. There's no Democratic Congress to blame anymore. Jim Cobabe wrote: Senator Peolosi from San Francisco is being groomed to take over the top of the Dem heap in the Congress, while many of the other rats abandon the sinking ship. Appears that she doesn't even attempt to hide her whacked-out leftist socialist feminazi idealism. Near as I can tell, she is an icon for everything that disgusted me about the Clintonistas. In other words, the perfect model to represent Demoncratic leadership in US politics. It will be truly gratifying if such openly radical nuts dominate in the new Democrat organization. Then they can vent their angst over irrelevant non-issues like equal pay for women and human rights in China, while the real leadership addresses substantive matters. --- Mij Ebaboc / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Best Books
After the scriptures what is the best book on gospel doctrine? My present choice would be THE TEACHINGS OF THE PROPHET JOSEPH SMITH edited by Joseph Fielding Smith. I agree, absolutely!! Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] War Against All of Islam
Ah, but I would (be so sure of that)! You see, unlike some on this list, I am willing to be led by President Bush. I believe that he is honest and sincere, and that he is no idiot. I don't take everything as gospel, and I don't agree with some of what he wants to do, but he will not lead us into untenable situations. Amen. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
Not only that but what about the innocents who would undoubtedly lose their lives in such an attack? IMO, that's all part of the deal. War is hell but we must fight it to win at minimal cost to our own side and if nuclear bombs will achieve that end, I am all for it. Whoever attacks this country should be made to pay the ultimate price and that will set the example for the rest of the world and probably deter future wars. Nuclear explosions are merciful because they vaporize a large part of the enemy quickly and get rid of the problem right away. Everyone is so worried about the innocents. THAT'S WAR! The Lord and Joshuah weren't worried about the innocents. Slay them ALL! The object is to win and not take any chances of loosing. It's dangerous for a bleeding heart liberal to lead troops in a battle and expect victory. Take that wuss Jimmy Carter for example; Oh blah! He sent some helicopters into Iran for a rescue and that was a big fat joke. We should have bombed Iran and set the example back then and declared the hostages war heros. Then we could have exacted tribute and filled the coffers of American banks as a further punishment against our enemies. You mark my words--Iran is going to be a real problem for us in the not so distant future. We Americans will pay for our failure to bomb them properly as we should have done. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Governing the Least
Our government threatens our liberties more than any terrorists. Oh brother, give me a break! Try telling that to the victims of 911! You talk as if the government is the great enemy of our lives. I think the above was one of your overstatements that you do from time to time. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] War against all of Islam
After much pondering, Gary Smith favored us with: Do we wait until Islam engulfs the nations and becomes a giant threat,before we encourage it to stand down and live peacefully among the nations of the world? Do you really think there is any danger that Islam could become a giant threat that engulfs the nations? That seems rather unlikely to me regardless of we do or don't do. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === Laurie got offended that I used the word puke. But to me, that's what her dinner tasted like. --Jack Handy === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Governing the Least
After much pondering, Marc A. Schindler favored us with: You forgot Vancouver ;-) And Prince Rupert must be like Manhattan to you guys, eh? VBG Vancouver is part of the greater Seattle metropolitan area, isn't it? very big grin / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
