Re: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?!
Hi, On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 19:04:34 +0200, Maik Jablonski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Zope2 isn't maintained very well anymore due to limited ressources(bug fixes, documentation, see mail from Andreas), but Zope3 isn'tproduction ready at all. So if you talk to people making the decisionsin the IT-business they say: Zope2 seems to be a dead horse, Zope3is just a child which learns to run... Agree. Here is my point of view, as 'site manager'. We are creating small sites for end-users, and we try to use Zope in many cases, recommending this platform to end users. Many customers refuse to use Zope because of one simple reason: they look at http://www.zope.org web site, and then get back to us asking us how we could recommend this product. In my opinion the most important fixes to web site are: - Web site (zope.org) is very slow, and contains outdated documentation, links. Not well organized. Does not look professional way.I have no idea why zope.org site is slow and dying, but if it is because hardware or any kind of misconfiguration problem it must be fixed a.s.a.p. Just tried to open home page of http://www.zope.org - my Opera shows 1 min 11 sec to load. (compare, www.php.org loads in 5 seconds). This makes our customers to make false decision that Zope is a way too slow. Most of customers refused to work with Zope because they tell: all sites we looked at seems to be really slow. - Look at Zope powered sites:http://www.zope.org/Resources/ZopePowered/. At first 4 sites are not enought to convience any commercial customer. Even total of 11 links found on the page is not enought. I suggest to have submit a site form on this page so end users will submit their sites URLs and the list will be growing. Inactive sites should be removed after some time. - I do not understand the link to Zope CMF which leads me to http://cmf.zope.org/ and where I read ATTENTION! ... Please don't add new content here What this site is about, if it should not be used. Is Zope CMF dead? I see it is not, but this link makes me confused. - Zope HowTos contain all documents made in 1999. Most of people (including me) will never read such old documents because most probably many things described there are outdated. - Zope Development Guide full of comments since 2002. This should be refactored once a month, at least once a 3 months (I've seen the effort to rewrite ZDG has been started). - Bug tracking system (issue tracker) is not very comfortable to use. Better to use bugzilla, foxbugs, even 'trac' project will be a way much better and easier to use. And intruducing a better bug tracking could lead to better and faster bug resolution. So, I think zope.org needs good refactoring, but it seems there are no single person working on the site constantly, only from time to time (like plone integration event). Does anyone have any suggestions how this could be fixed? I can try to help, but as you have probably noticed I am not native English speaker, so my help with editing texts will not be very useful. But we can try to find out the problem with hardware/software setup of zope.org to find out why its slow. Possible we can install bugzilla or some other thing. I just need to know if anybody else interested into better look of zope.org site? And how this could be done... -- Alex V. Koval ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?!
--On Freitag, 7. Mai 2004 19:26 Uhr +0300 Alex V. Koval [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I just need to know if anybody else interested into better look of zope.org site? And how this could be done... Basically by volunteering to help out with the one or the task. See http://www.zope.org/About/ how to participate. -aj ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?
Paul Winkler wrote at 2004-4-26 17:45 -0400: On Mon, Apr 26, 2004 at 07:47:39PM +0200, Dieter Maurer wrote: Our minimal tool usage is probably: Actions, Membership, Skins, Types, Workflow. I'm curious... do you use these with sites that are not in any other way based on CMFCore/CMFDefault ? Yes. -- Dieter ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?
+1 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
RE: [Zope3-dev] Re: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?
[Max M, tests a zip file of .pyd files in Zope3, on Windows] I finally got around to testing this, and it works *exactly* as I hoped. I downloaded Z3 from CVS, and Tim's zip file. I unpacked the zip file into the Z3 directory, and it started the first time. Yippee! That's what I expected, but it's always a pleasant surprise when software works 0.8 wink. I don't know about others, but I don't need anything more than this. If either Chris or Tim would put that structure up at a saner location, I will write a How-to about it. Basically I just need a web adress that stays current to use in the How-to, so that I could point to somewhere like: http://zope.org/Members/tim_one/z3builds Where they could get the latest zip file. http://zope.org/Members/tim_one/Zope3-pyd.zip is in place now. I'll put up a similarly named one for Zope2 this afternoon (EDT). They'll be replaced from time to time (when Zope 2/3's C code changes), but will retain theses names. ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?
Martijn Faassen wrote: Dieter Maurer wrote: Martijn Faassen wrote at 2004-4-24 22:49 +0200: ... In practice right now the picture is 'Use all of the CMF or none of it'. No, not really... We use SkinsTool, ActionsTool and DCWorkflow a lot, MembershipTool sometimes and most other tools not at all. Okay, point taken. :) How much do the tools listed interdepend on each other? See the attached file. Tres. -- === Tres Seaver[EMAIL PROTECTED] Zope Corporation Zope Dealers http://www.zope.com [/home/tseaver/projects/CMF/CMF-1.4-head/CMFCore] $ grep getToolByName Action*.py ActionInformation.py:from utils import getToolByName ActionInformation.py:membership = getToolByName(tool, 'portal_membership') # uses 'portal_membership' to compute whether the user is anonymous, and # to look up the user's ID. # uses 'Expression' class heavily; Expression also depends on # 'portal_membership'. [/home/tseaver/projects/CMF/CMF-1.4-head/CMFCore] $ grep getToolByName Skins*.py SkinsTool.py:from utils import UniqueObject, getToolByName, _dtmldir SkinsTool.py:pm = getToolByName(self, 'portal_membership') SkinsTool.py:pu = getToolByName(self, 'portal_url') # Uses 'portal_membership' to look up member skin prefs # Uses 'portal_url' to compute the path of the site object, in order to set #the path on the skin cookie. [/home/tseaver/projects/CMF/CMF-1.4-head/CMFCore] $ grep getToolByName FS*.py FSObject.py:from utils import expandpath, getToolByName FSObject.py:portal_skins = getToolByName(self,'portal_skins') # Uses 'portal_skins' to do customization. [/home/tseaver/projects/CMF/CMF-1.4-head/CMFCore] $ grep getToolByName Member*.py RegistrationTool.py MemberDataTool.py:from utils import UniqueObject, getToolByName, _dtmldir MemberDataTool.py:membertool = getToolByName(self, 'portal_membership') MemberDataTool.py:mtool = getToolByName(self, 'portal_membership') MemberDataTool.py:membertool= getToolByName(self, 'portal_membership') MemberDataTool.py:membership = getToolByName(self, 'portal_membership') MemberDataTool.py:registration = getToolByName(self, 'portal_registration', None) MembershipTool.py:from utils import getToolByName, _dtmldir MembershipTool.py:registration = getToolByName(self, 'portal_registration', None) MembershipTool.py:md = getToolByName(parent, 'portal_memberdata') MembershipTool.py:md = getToolByName( self, 'portal_memberdata' ) from utils import getToolByName membership = getToolByName(self, 'portal_membership') membership = getToolByName(self, 'portal_membership') # Membership, memberdata, and registration are self-contained. [/home/tseaver/projects/CMF/CMF-1.4-head/CMFCore] $ grep getToolByName Workflow*.py WorkflowCore.py:from utils import getToolByName WorkflowCore.py:wf = getToolByName(instance, 'portal_workflow', None) WorkflowTool.py:from utils import getToolByName WorkflowTool.py:types_tool = getToolByName( self, 'portal_types', None )WorkflowTool.py:pt = getToolByName(self, 'portal_types', None) # Uses 'portal_types', *if present*, to compute list of type names, and to #verify type-specific bindings. [/home/tseaver/projects/CMF/CMF-1.4-head/CMFCore] $ cd ../DCWorkflow [/home/tseaver/projects/CMF/CMF-1.4-head/DCWorkflow] $ grep getToolByName *.py DCWorkflow.py:from Products.CMFCore.utils import getToolByName DCWorkflow.py:catalog = getToolByName(self, 'portal_catalog') # Uses 'portal_catalog' to build work lists. ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?
Tres Seaver wrote at 2004-4-26 11:46 -0400: Martijn Faassen wrote: Dieter Maurer wrote: ... We use SkinsTool, ActionsTool and DCWorkflow a lot, MembershipTool sometimes and most other tools not at all. Okay, point taken. :) How much do the tools listed interdepend on each other? See the attached file. ... ... longer list than written above ... This happens when I write from memory, sorry! We also use portal_types regularly. When you do not use the full functionality from the MembershipTool, you may not need the MemberDataTool nor the RegistrationTool. Our minimal tool usage is probably: Actions, Membership, Skins, Types, Workflow. -- Dieter ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?
On Mon, Apr 26, 2004 at 07:47:39PM +0200, Dieter Maurer wrote: Our minimal tool usage is probably: Actions, Membership, Skins, Types, Workflow. I'm curious... do you use these with sites that are not in any other way based on CMFCore/CMFDefault ? -- Paul Winkler http://www.slinkp.com Look! Up in the sky! It's ! (random hero from isometric.spaceninja.com) ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?
Joachim Werner wrote: The problem of Zope 2 is - don't kill me for saying that - Plone. Plone and its foundations in CMF have created a large momentum around a terribly horrible code base. Believe me or not, almost everything gets more complicated with CMF/Plone than with plain Zope. Building a framework on top of a broken framework on top of an ageing framework that is hardly documented isn't a very good idea after all. You are somewhat right. It's an absolute bitch to write Products for Plone. But it does shows what is actually needed for Zope to work as intended. In plain Z2 You could write a lot of products, and they would all work fine on your site. But others could not easily download and use/try out the products. What Plone really is a good example of, is the necessity of a practical reference implementation that all content types and tools can be tested up against. It the light house that everything is steering towards. I believe that's the reason for it's succes. It's hard to put a finger on exactly why it has become one. But obviously it has reached critical mass of being good enough for a lot of things. It is also flexible enough to be changed beyond recognition. So both novice users and developers can use it with a lot of succes. A short list of things that I think makes it an end user succes (even advanced developers are end users of others products): The skin Notably main_template.pt plone.css. It is absolute paramount to have a flexible template/styleguide to write up against. It has to be pretty enough to be used in production site out of the box, and easy to change. The CMS' skin apparently wasn't good enough. A site can be layed ot in umpteen ways, but the Plone guys has said this is how we think it should look and function, and put a working example out there. Apparently that has been a very succesfull strategy. There is also several layers at which it can be changed. From stylesheets to programming. So it can look completely different. But ther reference is allways there as a guide. Installation It is easy to install and try out new products, and they all work together, and all use the same skin. So if you install a new product it automatically has the look and feel of your site. Even though the site is heavily skinned. Development process --- Quick and non-bureaucratic. The Plone developers are pretty open for suggestions, and hang out on irc and maillists. There is a shared repository (the collective) for 3'rd party products. Which gives a good sense of comunity There is a lot of stuff that could be different in Plone, but on a basic level they got the right solution for making it possible to do distributed development of products that can still work together. regards Max M ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?
Dieter Maurer wrote: Lennart Regebro wrote at 2004-4-23 10:57 +0200: But ah well, what is done is done. Too late to change the past now. :-0 There is no need to change the past. You can start using CMFCore profitable in the future :-) I also disliked the cmf concept, until I actually started using it seriously. regards Max M ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?
Stephan Richter wrote: Nobody is willing to contribute. ZC agreed to change zope.org to Plone so more community members can contribute. But noone has stepped up; that's very sad. Sorry, but I think you'll find several people stepped up, and ZC slapped them in the face with a big fat legal document. That's never a good way to encourage people to help... Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?!
Chris Withers wrote: Andre Meyer wrote: With respect to CMS, Plone archetypes are too simplistic for complex data/document types and customisation takes too much effort. totally agree... I have the same experience. They keep refactoring how a single small (and relatively uninterresting) subset of problems can be solved. In the meantime all the products depending on the framework are in a perpetual state of broke. Furthermore they keep forking the codebase and giving it new names. I have a few Plone Products, and while it takes a bit to get the skeleton set up correctly, it is never that part of the product development that takes the most time. After the setup I can then enjoy that I don't have to fight the constraints of a framework. regards Max M ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?
Tim Peters wrote: [Max M] Or perhaps an automated nightly Windows build. [Stephan Richter] We have talked about it many times before, but simply lack the bandwidth. Maybe you could provide this for Cygwin? [Max M] Argh ... that wasn't fair. Ok I will try and find some time to look into it. A problem is that every platform has its own unique bag of miserable quirks. Well, yeah. I installed cygwin and all the devolpment tools. About 800 Megs. I could have sorted it, but I wouldn't risk missing libraries, tools etc. and harddisk is cheap. Python compiled fine, both with and without ./configure --with-threads Z3 also compiled without a hickup. But when I tried to go to http://localhost:8080; or http://localhost:8080/manage; I just got a A system error occurred. message, and a the following log entry: 2004-04-22T08:47:13 ERROR root PageTemplateFile: Error in template: Compilation failed exceptions.SyntaxError: invalid syntax (string, line 1) Which is sort of non-helpfull. Maybe this is (still) relevant to building Zope under Cygwin, maybe not: http://www.zope.org/Members/dgeorgieff/howto_zope_cvs_on_cygwin/index_html I didn't need to do all of that to get it build. What exactly is needed? I routinely compile Zope2 and Zope3 HEAD on Windows, using MSVC 6. I can't make time to set up a fancy snapshot procedure, but if all people want is (e.g.) a zip file containing the .pyd files, uploading those once a week wouldn't be a significant time sink. AS far as I can see that should be enough. If the compiled files, in their directory structure, could just be dropped on top of the python structure from cvs/subversion I expect that would be enough? As far as I can see from a quick manual scan of the directory structure that's how the code is structured now? The compiled files are not under version control, and so would not be overwritten by updating from cvs/subversion. regards Max M ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?!
Jim Fulton wrote: 2. Especially Andreas expressed his worries about the current release policy in Zope 2 and its future regarding maintainance and support. I have to say that I share some of his skepticism regarding Zope 2. I personally have never fully understood ZC's reasons for the release roadmap as it is. I might not see the big picture, but I know I would have done it differently. I've always tried to make that clear in the past. I'm surprised to read this. Could you be more specific about your concerns? I should have said the release roadmap as it WAS. I was very skeptical about the original plans to make Zope3 backward compatible. I am still very skeptical about the ability to add conversion scripts. They would be incredibly tedious painful to write and I personally would rather migrate code manually than trust a script. After all, the paradigms have changed a lot. I see it as realistic as Stephan. There is no sane migration to Zope3 than the one of refactoring code. Now, in order for that to happen, we need the CA in Zope2, so people can start asap. My only criticism has been and still is that the CA hasn't been introduced to Zope2 earlier. Now, I know that a) the CA has been refactored a lot since its invention (and IMO only for the good) and b) there was a lack of resources to do that actual integration. That's why I've never declared anyone guilty for it (which is why you may be surprised by this). It sure would have been nice if Gary had shared his experience with FrankenZope a little earlier. I remember Martijn being quite eager to experiment with it, too. But that's the only constructive criticism I have. Philipp ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?!
Jim Fulton wrote: Martijn Faassen wrote: Jim Fulton wrote: I'm surprised to read this. Could you be more specific about your concerns? Did you read Andreas Jung's mail? He was pretty specific, but I had to hunt around as in my mailreader his reply had broken the thread. I was responding to Philipp, not Andreas. Yeah, but I figured you might not have seen Andreas's mail as I had some trouble finding it myself, so I was trying to be helpful. :) Regards, Martijn ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
RE: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?
[Max M] Well, yeah. I installed cygwin and all the devolpment tools. About 800 Megs. I could have sorted it, but I wouldn't risk missing libraries, tools etc. and harddisk is cheap. Same here (although my old laptop doesn't have enough disk space remaining to download the whole thing). Python compiled fine, both with and without ./configure --with-threads Z3 also compiled without a hickup. Python 2.3.3 comes with current Cygwin, so there shouldn't be a need to build Python (or maybe there is? I don't know; the one that comes with Cygwin has threads enabled already: $ python Python 2.3.3 (#1, Dec 30 2003, 08:29:25) [GCC 3.3.1 (cygming special)] on cygwin Type help, copyright, credits or license for more information. import thread def f(): ...print 'hi!' ... thread.start_new_thread(f, ()) 10852896 hi! ). I didn't have any problems compiling anything, I hit instant disasters whenever code tried to spawn a new process (mystery errors under WinXP Pro, segfault and system freeze under Win98SE). But when I tried to go to http://localhost:8080; or http://localhost:8080/manage; I just got a A system error occurred. message, and a the following log entry: 2004-04-22T08:47:13 ERROR root PageTemplateFile: Error in template: Compilation failed exceptions.SyntaxError: invalid syntax (string, line 1) Which is sort of non-helpfull. Sorry, no clues here. Perhaps someone else knows how to get Cygwin to work. ... What exactly is needed? I routinely compile Zope2 and Zope3 HEAD on Windows, using MSVC 6. I can't make time to set up a fancy snapshot procedure, but if all people want is (e.g.) a zip file containing the .pyd files, uploading those once a week wouldn't be a significant time sink. AS far as I can see that should be enough. If the compiled files, in their directory structure, could just be dropped on top of the python structure from cvs/subversion I expect that would be enough? No way to tell without trying. I don't know whether you're building Zope2 or Zope3, but since this is the zope-dev list I assume the former. Try http://zope.org/Members/tim_one/Zope2-20040422.zip/file_view and let us know what happens! As the comment there says, it's just .pyd files from Zope2 HEAD, compiled with MSVC 6. This is from an inplace (setup.py build_ext -i) build on Windows, from a current Zope HEAD checkout. As far as I can see from a quick manual scan of the directory structure that's how the code is structured now? The compiled files are not under version control, and so would not be overwritten by updating from cvs/subversion. That's correct. ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
RE: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?
[Tim Peters] ... No way to tell without trying. I don't know whether you're building Zope2 or Zope3, but since this is the zope-dev list I assume the former. Try http://zope.org/Members/tim_one/Zope2-20040422.zip/file_view and let us know what happens! As the comment there says, it's just .pyd files from Zope2 HEAD, compiled with MSVC 6. This is from an inplace (setup.py build_ext -i) build on Windows, from a current Zope HEAD checkout. FYI, there's a similar zip file now containing the same kind of thing for a current Zope3 checkout (s/Zope2/Zope3/ in the URL). If this is good enough for people trying to work from CVS on Windows, let me know and I'll update them from time to time, and maybe move them to a saner location. If it's not good enough, sorry, but I don't anticipate having enough time to do more than this (which is just a trivial zip+upload step beyond the builds I have to do anyway). ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?!
What a great discussion. I'm not sure I can catch up and make a single coherent reply, so I'll just drop this into the stew right here: I think Zope 3 is firmly on the right track. At the same time let us not forget the ideas around http://www.dreamsongs.com/WorseIsBetter.html . ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?
Casey Duncan wrote: On a bright note, I think zopewiki.org could change that. It *greatly* lowers the bar on contributing That is exactly the intent. We have needed this since the days of the ZDP. I see no reason why it being or not being on Zope.org is relevant. Its a social thing: Simon decided to do something and had the software, Not *just* social. I would say there seem to be social/structural/technical/perceptual reasons why such a thing simply cannot exist at ZC-managed zope.org right now. So, while zope.org would be the ideal url (and I tried to nudge zope.org in this direction for years without coming across as a zealot) I think there are actually some advantages to having a slightly separate docs site. More modular, scales better. Of course the more integration and interlinking the better. Constructively-intended zope.org criticism: zope.org is the zope community's biggest documentation asset. And yet at this point it is indeed also a big fat piano sitting on the windpipe of zope documentation, and hence the zope community itself. This is despite the best of intentions on all sides. To say (as Stephan has) that it's due to lack of volunteers is wrong. Many of us have tried. Perhaps ZC expects more from a volunteer than is realistic. Compare with other successful successful open source projects. ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?
Jim Fulton wrote at 2004-4-21 11:39 -0400: Andreas Jung wrote: ... I am sure that more are willing to contribute more than at the moment. Great! Where are they? I, for example, would but I am scared away by the required promise to defend ZC against any potential patent claim related to my checkins. As in the US almost any triviality seems to be patentable, I consider this too big a risk... -- Dieter ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?
Martijn Faassen wrote at 2004-4-21 19:42 +0200: Stephan Richter wrote: Nobody is willing to contribute. ZC agreed to change zope.org to Plone so more community members can contribute. But noone has stepped up; that's very sad. I believe part of the blockage is because contributors have to sign far more than just a simple CVS contributor's agreement. This bureaucracy is not helpful. +1 -- Dieter ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?!
Martin Kretschmar wrote: Shortly said, the whole set of stupidities in connection with Zope3. It is a pretty bad state for a project, if it looms for years as the followup project on the horizon but in reality isn't one! It looks like the classical strategic mistake: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog69.html Funny thing though is that Joel uses Netscape/Mozilla as an example on how not to do it. I think that the jury is still out as to who won the browser war. So it ain't ower until the fat lady sings. I can't believe the fairy tales with the possible migration from Zope2 to Zope3. Me neither. The best we can hope is that it will be like copying a Z2 product to a folder, and then move stuff out into configuration files instead. Perhaps it can be somewhat automated, but I see a lot of subtleties that can only be handled manually. On the possitive side, a lot of the Z3 technologies are allready back-ported to to Z2. So Z3 will not be completely alien. But if Z3 succeds in picking up more developers, as Z3 development gets a lot easier and more Pythonic, it can very well be better in the long run. All the people which have dwelled more or less deeply into the Zope2 world, thereby having had an enormous learning curve and now running applications, will not be able to participate easily on the academic Zope3 train. The technic freaks who modell Zope3 are usually not application developers, which have to build and run working applications for real human users. The artifical not-yet-product Zope3 will sooner or later be distracting development efforts from Zope2 because Zope3 is almost finished. That doesn't look not nice ... It is the single biggest concern about Zopes future. That is correct. And not one to be taken lightly. But the biggest problem with Z2 has allways been the steep learning curve. Relatively few developers has been able to work on it. The time lost for Z2 developers transfering to Z3 could quickly be offset by new developers due to an easier development model. Also, Python is flexible. We will probably see a transition phase, where products are developed for Z2/Z3 compatibility. That way we *can* get a smooth transition. Further I see the problem that Zope probably has no real target group as an application server. Zope has allways had that problem. But actually it fits very nicely into the cms market. Especially with Plone as the base. Many companies has their own home rolled cms system. They will be replaced by open solutions due to scale of economics. It is simply to costly to compete against something like Plone. Zope/Plone has a sweet spot that actually fits most customers out there. You can make solutions for a fraction of the cost of what a typical Java bases system costs. Many Java based cms solutions are too costly timewise to implement solutions in for many customers. The enterprise world is dominated by .Net and J2EE. Zope in its current form without a sensible documentation in conjunction with the drama about the english zope book doesn't help changing this. Scripting has arrived in the Java world by Groovy, so this isn't a reason for using Zope anymore. Scripting was never the reason for Zope. The absolutely brilliant object publishing model was. Well that and Python. It might be Groovy, but Python it ain't! The things you can do in Zope you simply cannot do as well in other systems. The solution fits the problem space *very* well. In the world of small and medium applications PHP is likely to stay, because it leads much faster to results. Zope is to complicated for this. The world of small/medium applications will dissapear! The bigger systems like Plone can do anything out of the box that the small hand-built systems needs to have hand coded. Why on earth should somebody set up a PHP server and do a lot of hand coding, when they can set up a Plone server that does it all for them? PHP based systems tends to be monolithic blocks. Something like PHPBoard is a good example. Setting it up is rather complicated. And using several on the same site is also difficult. I Zope you can have a discussion board in each end every folder, just by adding it through a web based interface. Furthermore smaller systems will grow larger. Then they will get growing problems too. Developers allready using bigger systems will find the future simpler. For the CMS stuff we have Plone, but this is rather suited for handling some simplistic documents for the intranet rather then a nice internet representation. This is because customizing Plone isn't trivial at all and nobody want's to run web pages with standard underwear blue. OK, the colours can be changed easily, other features via CSS, etc. ... That is hard for any CMS system. What system does it better? It isn't a simple task to create a skinning system that flexible. Actually I find Plone to be very well factored for a system of that complexity. There isn't much in Plone
[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?
Personally, I think Zope3 has a great future, and will pick up a much larger community than Zope2 ever did, because it's better designed and better documented. In general, the people who stand to gain immediately (or pretty soon) from Zope3 are enthusiasts; newcomers; and ZC. However, if the process of moving away from Zope2 is not managed very carefully and slowly, the people who stand to lose are companies that already rely on Zope2. I agree that the solution is probably to allow the community more control over the release cycle, web site, and repository. We could follow various other models from elsewhere in the OSS world, and see what happens. I believe that ZC's apparent reticence on this is because they are (understandably) interested in preserving control over their brand, which overlaps rather largely with the software. What would be helpful is a definitive statement from ZC as to whether they would consider relinquishing some of their control over Zope 2. Perhaps, instead of a code fork, we could have a brand fork, with a different website, a different name, and a different release schedule (think Fedora?) Seb Andreas Jung wrote: From my own prospective as developer I would like to see that Z2 development over the next two or three years continues because there is too much Z2 legacy code in the world and not everyone is interested in following the migration path for Z3. To be honest I doubt that large custom applications can be migrated with a justifiable amount of time and money (just because they are completely bound to Z2 components and its architecture). To clarify my standpoint: I am not an opponent of Zope3 but Zope 3 does not convince me in the current stage and gives me little attraction for the projects I am working onit just can not compete with Zope 2 if you are building large-scale systems at this time. Andreas ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?
Hi, the points I snipped I agree with and/or have no new input for. On Wednesday 21 April 2004 05:36, Andreas Jung wrote: The reasons for this situation from my prospective: - Lots of Z2 people are working now on Plone projects. Plone currently attracts more people because the important and interesting projects are done there. Paul Everits goal to grow Zope by 10 times might happen through Plone, not through Zope itself Yes. Note that there are plans emerging for Plone 3 for Zope 3. I hope that we will be able to redirect some of the development power of Plone towards Zope with Plone 3. And I think that will be possible. Zope 2 has too many abstraction layers: Zope -- CMF -- Plone, CPS, ... That means that if I develop a product for Zope, it cannot be automatically used in CMF/Plone optimally anymore. With Zope 3 we will get a fresh start on this. - The Z2 development is badly managed. The 2.7 release has been delayed for one year or so. Yes, I hope we will be able to manage releases in the community for Zope 3. Jim encouraged this by asking me to do the current Zope 3 releases (so I hope I will be able to give away this responsibility to someone else, when the Zope 3 community grows -- it will need someone who is constantly involved in the real world and sees the needs for releases clearer than I do). - ZC is currently the bottleneck for Z2. As stated before, I think that can be changed, if enough interest is shown in the community. But I think the Zope community lacks strong leaders; too many people are only interested in making money with it without realizing that their future depends on the general success and development of Zope. Maiks words: Z3 is attractive as an academic project to try out things and concepts but it does not attract people in the current stage...maybe in two years from now but currently most people are attracted by working and usable solutions like Plone. And that in itself is the problem. Making money is most important, securing the future is second. People don't care about the latter. :-( - The zope.org community site is a mess. Lots of outstanding problems are not fixed, the performance of the site is more than poor (it takes ages to login, it takes ages to load pages), usability (e.g. when you perform a software release) is bad. Nobody is willing to contribute. ZC agreed to change zope.org to Plone so more community members can contribute. But noone has stepped up; that's very sad. Regards, Stephan -- Stephan Richter CBU Physics Chemistry (B.S.) / Tufts Physics (Ph.D. student) Web2k - Web Software Design, Development and Training ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?!
Martin, Maik, Andreas, and others, I see two issues being raised in this thread: 1. Maik disagrees with the design philosophy behind Zope3 (the Component Architecture) and the place Zope3 wants to position itself at in the future. As a Zope developer who has spent the last two years both developing *with* Zope2 and developing Zope3 itself, I obviously have a different point of view about the technical part. Whether Zope3 will be success in its market niche is yet to be determined. If you fight, you can win the war; if you give up now, you've already lost the war. Since this is more a philosophical issue, or even a matter of taste, I am not going to argue too much about it. I find the component architecture superior to anything we have seen before and we will soon have proofs that it is capable of industrial strength applications. Most other developers who are involved into development with or of CMF (such as the leading Plone developers) seem to share that point of view; in fact, we all can't hardly wait for Zope3 to hit stable. 2. Especially Andreas expressed his worries about the current release policy in Zope 2 and its future regarding maintainance and support. I have to say that I share some of his skepticism regarding Zope 2. I personally have never fully understood ZC's reasons for the release roadmap as it is. I might not see the big picture, but I know I would have done it differently. I've always tried to make that clear in the past. Coming up with harsh criticism now is not very fair, I think, especially when you're as in involved as Maik or Andreas. Zope 2 development has opened for the community a lot in the past. While people were to extend Zope2 with more or less useful features (seemed to me that it was more than fixing bugs), all the administrative stuff got stuck with ZC. Did anyone from the community ever volunteer helping with the releases or the CVS administration? In this matter, btw, the future painted in Zope3 is brighter: more community involvement, more innovations coming from the community and more administrative tasks taken up by volunteers. Not that I'm not suggesting that more help is needed... Philipp ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?
Stephan Richter wrote: Hi, As stated before, I think that can be changed, if enough interest is shown in the community. But I think the Zope community lacks strong leaders; too many people are only interested in making money with it without realizing that their future depends on the general success and development of Zope. That is not nessecarily mutually exclusive. But taking leadership is only possible if it is easy. I doubt that Plone would have been a succes if it had followed the Zope release schedule ... And that in itself is the problem. Making money is most important, securing the future is second. People don't care about the latter. :-( Offcourse we do. But we need to focus on a few areas. We cannot all develop frameworks. Personally I serve my customers, and write content types for Plone. That is a full-time job right there. I do take pride in making them well tested, and properly documented. I don't really see how I can do any more than that. - The zope.org community site is a mess. Lots of outstanding problems are not fixed, the performance of the site is more than poor (it takes ages to login, it takes ages to load pages), Stuff like performance is probably better off left to zc. It is very hardware specific, so on-site developers has a clear advantage. usability (e.g. when you perform a software release) is bad. Yes! Nobody is willing to contribute. ZC agreed to change zope.org to Plone so more community members can contribute. Well. The switch wasn't very well made. It has become more difficult to use. (Why do we need the default state to be private? Or perhaps trusted Members could get the reviewer role locally so that it would be easier to use.) But noone has stepped up; that's very sad. Stepped up to do what? How do you step up? To me it seems like you will get the ability to have endless comitee meetings about how it should work. Not the power to just change stuff. Even if it breaks sometimes. I have enough of that kind of work from my customers thank you ;-) regards Max M ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?!
Martin Kretschmar wrote: Hello, Maik Jablonski of the german speaking Zope Users Group DZUG issued a pretty bleak outlook for the future of Zope. What are your oppinions? Here comes the translation of his oppoion: Maik, what makes you look full of scepticism for the future of Zope? Shortly said, the whole set of stupidities in connection with Zope3. Well, thanks for the kind words. Makes me want to work really hard to satisfy your concerns. It is a pretty bad state for a project, if it looms for years as the followup project on the horizon but in reality isn't one! I can't believe the fairy tales with the possible migration from Zope2 to Zope3. I'm sorry you feel that way. We've tried to be very honest about the road map. Zope 3 has taken much longer than I expected. I made a conscious decision a few months ago to actually slow it down, Why? Two reasons: - We have Zope 2. While not perfect, Zope 2 is a great system. We make out living with Zope 2. The vast majority of ZC people work in Zope 2, not Zope 3. - We want Zope 3 to be as solid and clean as it can be. We have an opportunity, before a stable release, to change things readily. That will be much harder once it's in production. All the people which have dwelled more or less deeply into the Zope2 world, thereby having had an enormous learning curve and now running applications, This enormous learning curve is one of the main reasons we created Zope 3. will not be able to participate easily on the academic Zope3 train. The technic freaks who modell Zope3 are usually not application developers, which have to build and run working applications for real human users. That's both insulting and incorrect. Many of the leaders of the Zope 2 community are involved in Zope 3 and using it. These people are application developers. The artifical not-yet-product Zope3 will sooner or later be distracting development efforts from Zope2 because Zope3 is almost finished. That doesn't look not nice ... Any new project distracts development from other projects. That's natural and healthy? Has development on Zope 2 stopped? No. ZC still puts more work into Zope 2 than into Zope 3. I expect that to continue for some time. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?!
Max M wrote: Martin Kretschmar wrote: Shortly said, the whole set of stupidities in connection with Zope3. It is a pretty bad state for a project, if it looms for years as the followup project on the horizon but in reality isn't one! It looks like the classical strategic mistake: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog69.html Well, I don't agree with this assessment for Zope 3. We needed the freedom to work oput new ideas and patterns. Trying to use existing code would have been a huge distraction. I think that the result proves that we were right. The beauty of our approach is that, having built what we've built, we'll be able to take advantage of that code in the current platform. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?
Stephan Richter wrote: Concerning the release schedule, ZC has little to do with that for Zope 3. In fact, I have been release manager since this summer and I am responsible for the release schedule and packages. However, I decided not to release often, since again we do not have bandwidth to support the milestones. Since the CVS is as stable as any milestone release (we have tests for everything), releases are less important and it is much easier and less time consuming to support the current HEAD, which you can just download via the Web. My only problem is that it is difficult to be an occasional developer in Z3 on Windows. I normally don't develop in c. So I don't have Visual Studion installed. I have downloaded the milestones and tried them out. But then I read about this and that *geddon, and think well guess I should wait for another version before I try it again. I quickly feel out of sync in Z3. If there was some way to have a Binary core that didn't change very often, and a Python only part that I could upload from cvs/subversion to be up to date, it would be much easier to use a few hours here and there to try out stuff in Z3. Or perhaps an automated nightly Windows build. I believe that Chris Withers is testing Z3 nightly on Windows. Right? Would it be difficult to have that available as a download somewhere? It seems that zipping and uploading the test directory is enough. Being able to grab the builds seems more important than the releases. However, we are getting the first alpha out by the end of the month. Hopefully, by end of May we will have finished the X3.0 to-do list and will release the beta. At this point the API will freeze and application developers are encouraged to have look at it. Great. regards Max M ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?!
Philipp von Weitershausen wrote: Martin, Maik, Andreas, and others, I see two issues being raised in this thread: 2. Especially Andreas expressed his worries about the current release policy in Zope 2 and its future regarding maintainance and support. I have to say that I share some of his skepticism regarding Zope 2. I personally have never fully understood ZC's reasons for the release roadmap as it is. I might not see the big picture, but I know I would have done it differently. I've always tried to make that clear in the past. I'm surprised to read this. Could you be more specific about your concerns? Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?!
will not be able to participate easily on the academic Zope3 train. The technic freaks who modell Zope3 are usually not application developers, which have to build and run working applications for real human users. That's both insulting and incorrect. Many of the leaders of the Zope 2 community are involved in Zope 3 and using it. These people are application developers. Jim, we native german speakers tend to be much more direct and phrase dings more bluntly the you americans do. In german I read Maik's statement as a strong opinion but never as an insult. Since I am the one who asked Mike to speak up I would feel bad if it created any bad feelings. Robert ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?
On Wednesday 21 April 2004 10:40, Max M wrote: I normally don't develop in c. So I don't have Visual Studion installed. You can also use cygwin. I have downloaded the milestones and tried them out. But then I read about this and that *geddon, and think well guess I should wait for another version before I try it again. right. I quickly feel out of sync in Z3. yes. If there was some way to have a Binary core that didn't change very often, and a Python only part that I could upload from cvs/subversion to be up to date, it would be much easier to use a few hours here and there to try out stuff in Z3. There is little change in the C files. It is very rare. Or perhaps an automated nightly Windows build. We have talked about it many times before, but simply lack the bandwidth. Maybe you could provide this for Cygwin? Regards, Stephan -- Stephan Richter CBU Physics Chemistry (B.S.) / Tufts Physics (Ph.D. student) Web2k - Web Software Design, Development and Training ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?
On Wednesday 21 April 2004 09:40 am, Max M wrote: Stephan Richter wrote: However, we are getting the first alpha out by the end of the month. Hopefully, by end of May we will have finished the X3.0 to-do list and will release the beta. At this point the API will freeze and application developers are encouraged to have look at it. Well, I couldn't find the antecedent for that quote, but it's really good news! I'm deeply embroiled in organizing for an upcoming space conference on Memorial Day Weekend (May 27-31, http://www.isdc2004.org ), so I'm not able to do *any* programming for about a month, but I will definitely be checking X3.0 out in June. That's probably when I'll be available to look at the Schema package and see if I can contribute usefully to it, as well. Cheers, Terry -- Terry Hancock ( hancock at anansispaceworks.com ) Anansi Spaceworks http://www.anansispaceworks.com ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?!
Jim Fulton wrote: I'm surprised to read this. Could you be more specific about your concerns? Did you read Andreas Jung's mail? He was pretty specific, but I had to hunt around as in my mailreader his reply had broken the thread. Regards, Martijn ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?!
Hello, Jim, we native german speakers tend to be much more direct and phrase dings more bluntly the you americans do. In german I read Maik's statement as a strong opinion but never as an insult. Since I am the one who asked Mike to speak up I would feel bad if it created any bad feelings. Robert Robert is 100% right! Mikes oppion contains no real insults at all, not even really bad phrases, at least not in the original german version. German insults look quite different, and we tend to recognize them when we read them. In this sense I was somewhat careless in my instant translation and I want to apologize for it. Martin ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?
Andreas Jung wrote: Some remarks from my side as a Zope2 core developer on this issue: The Z2 community and development is currently at a bad point: - very few people are contributing to the Z2 in terms of new code and bug fixes (see the tons of open bugs in the collector) In the last year, 37 people make 4215 checkins to the Zope 2 repository. This doesn't seem to shabby to me. Here's the breakdown by year: Year checkins people 2002 7090 33 2003 5276 34 2004 1103 24 # First 3 1/2 months There is some decline, as one would expect in a mature product. These numbers don't include CMF and Plone. I'd like to see a lot more contributions. But this still looks like a pretty healthy development community to me. - very few people are willing to contribute to documentation No one likes to write documentation. I think we're making some progress in this area in Zope 3 that I think will feed back to Zope 2. The reasons for this situation from my prospective: - Lots of Z2 people are working now on Plone projects. Plone currently attracts more people because the important and interesting projects are done there. Paul Everits goal to grow Zope by 10 times might happen through Plone, not through Zope itself Is that bad? - The Z2 development is badly managed. The 2.7 release has been delayed for one year or so. You keep saying that, but you don't offer to help. We begged for help with the Zope 2.7 release. AFAIK, we got very little, so it fell to us. - ZC is currently the bottleneck for Z2. No, we're not. And it has nothing to do with how much time we spend on releases. Any time someone wants to help with or lead the release process, we'd be thrilled to support them in doing so. If the community wants more frequent releases, they need to help. It sounds like people are trying out amd giving feedback on the head. That's great! I'd really like to see 2.8 get out soon. ... - The zope.org community site is a mess. Lots of outstanding problems are not fixed, the performance of the site is more than poor (it takes ages to login, it takes ages to load pages), usability (e.g. when you perform a software release) is bad. Yes, that's a bad situation. We (meaning the Zope community) need to do something about this. Sigh. ... We need for Zope2 - a better and open management for Z2 releases: Please be specific. Better in what way? Open in what way? In what way have we not been open? ... If ZC can not provide the resources in terms of time and manpower, the coordination and release management should be given to the community. I am sure that more are willing to contribute more than at the moment. Great! Where are they? The community led the release of 2.6. I think that worked pretty well. We asked for, but didn't get volunteers for the Zope 2.7 release. If anyone wants to help with or lead the 2.8 release, I'd *love* to hear from them. - a clear statement from ZC to the future of Zope 2. We've said many times, and I'll say again, that Zope 2 will be with us for some time. We won't stop working on Zope 2 until Zope 3 is done (meaning does everything that Zope 2 does) and there is a clean migration path. We don't know, at this point, what form that path will take. We just haven't figured it out yet. Our short term strategy is to narrow the gap between Zope 2 and Zope 3, by having them share more and more software over time. This is what the Zope 2.8 and Zope 2.9 releases will be about, in addition to community-developed enhancements, of course. Zope 2.8 and Zope 2.9 are considered as a migration path for Zope 3 Yes where the Z2 support should be dropped after these releases No. We've *never* said that. I fully expect Zope 2 releases after Zope 2.9. ... From my own prospective as developer I would like to see that Z2 development over the next two or three years continues because there is too much Z2 legacy code in the world Of course. No one is suggesting that we stop development of Zope 2. ... To be honest I doubt that large custom applications can be migrated with a justifiable amount of time and money (just because they are completely bound to Z2 components and its architecture). I don't know. You may be right, but I don't think so. We'll have to wait and see. To clarify my standpoint: I am not an opponent of Zope3 but Zope 3 does not convince me in the current stage and gives me little attraction for the projects I am working onit just can not compete with Zope 2 if you are building large-scale systems at this time. Absolutely! Nor should it try to compete at this time. If you want the same level of functionality that's in Zope 2, then use Zope 2. Zope 3 isn't there yet. OTOH, Zope 3 does have some advantages for some applications. That's why people are building production apps with it now, even though there isn't a production release. That's why we're working very hard to make a production-quality release of what we have now, even though it
[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?!
Martin Kretschmar wrote: Maik Jablonski of the german speaking Zope Users Group DZUG issued a pretty bleak outlook for the future of Zope. What are your oppinions? Hi to all, I'm not able to respond to all mails in this thread due to a trashed shoulder (very unlucky cyclocross-crash last week), but I'm feeling the need to make some simple remarks. 1) Chris is right: Yes, I've had a bad day...;) 2) My initial mail wasn't intended for zope-dev. So I'm a little bit suprised that it made it to this list. If anyone feels offended (esp. Jim), I'm very sorry, but if I want to complain about Zope2/3 on this list, I would use other words. The initial mail (written in german) was written in a state of fear (not anger). The translation (and maybe my mail itself) didn't transport my fear about the future of Zope very well I guess. 3) To say it clearly: I would have never started the German Zope User Group two years ago if I were not totally convinced of Zope (the technology the community). Bringing up a community in Germany (with several big conferences, etc.) was a lot of work (believe me), so I don't feel as a usual freerider who only complains but does not give something back to the community. But my resources are limited as well, so I can't take additional tasks as documentation, release-management, etc.pp... If this means I'm not allowed to say anything critical about these points then I'm very, very sorry making any remarks... 4) Stephan, you're right, I did not study Zope3 (and the zope3-dev-list) very well. My initial approach to Zope3 ended with the impression: huh, complicated stuff, but I don't have time to work it out in the moment! Then I've talked to many people who said similar things about their first experience with Zope3 (maybe I've talked to the wrong people, than this is my fault, sorry again). So I came up with the impression: yeah, Zope3 is cool, but complicated (stated as 'academic' in my mail)! (at least if you don't have the time to work things out by diving into the source). And if you run several mission critial applications you don't have time to look into this kind of new stuff. But you're right, Stephan: If you want to stay in technology business, you have to invent (read: improve by a complete redesign) the wheel many times. So I don't think that Zope3 is useless for the future of Zope. 5) But there's some kind of a bad impression in my mind (maybe it is without any foundation, than all things are in best state): Zope2 isn't maintained very well anymore due to limited ressources (bug fixes, documentation, see mail from Andreas), but Zope3 isn't production ready at all. So if you talk to people making the decisions in the IT-business they say: Zope2 seems to be a dead horse, Zope3 is just a child which learns to run... Let's settle our business on more approved technologies like Java / Net (or even PHP...;)). We can't wait anymore... This kind of frustrating impression made me writing the mail about the future of Zope, because I'm in love with Zope and not Java, Net or PHP... [[[6) Just a personal note to Stephan: You're right again about the quickdirty design of some of my products (esp. Epoz, I have simply no knowledge about JavaScript at all (and I don't like it), but Epoz seems to do a good job for many people until Kupu is finished). My job (read: strength) is custom-application-development (talking to customers and reading their minds, developing prototypes to track down the issues the customer meant and didn't told me and didn't dream of etc.pp., developing securing maintaing web-applications which need to work in an environment with 20.000 students 2000 office-workers etc.), not application-framework-design-nor-development, so my products are just some wired by-products of my daily work. About MailBoxer: If you think MailBoxer is just another mailinglistmanager (like mailman) you didn't get the idea of it... MailBoxer is a lightweight mailinglist-framework (!, yes I've done some kind of framework, it can be done better, but it solves my problems this way) which is built on the power of Zope to achieve some things you can hardly achieve with Mailman (at least I wasn't able to to). So I've reinvented the wheel once more to solve some of my application-needs...]]] Hope this made things a little bit clearer... I didn't want to attack ZC / Zope3-devs / the community or anyone else. I'm just fearing that we miss the train for Zope2 AND Zope3 in the moment... if you don't think so, I'm fine...:) Keep zoped, Maik ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?!
robert rottermann wrote: will not be able to participate easily on the academic Zope3 train. The technic freaks who modell Zope3 are usually not application developers, which have to build and run working applications for real human users. That's both insulting and incorrect. Many of the leaders of the Zope 2 community are involved in Zope 3 and using it. These people are application developers. Jim, we native german speakers tend to be much more direct and phrase dings more bluntly the you americans do. In german I read Maik's statement as a strong opinion but never as an insult. Since I am the one who asked Mike to speak up I would feel bad if it created any bad feelings. Bad feeling don't last long with me. I couldn't be an open-source developer if they did. :/ Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?
On Wed, Apr 21, 2004 at 10:41:27AM -0400, Casey Duncan wrote: I agree that bugs deserve more attention. We need to have more bug days. I meant to suggest a date last week, but I got diverted. How would people feel about next Thursday, April 29? +1 -- Paul Winkler http://www.slinkp.com ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?
Casey Duncan wrote: On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 11:36:31 +0200 Andreas Jung [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - very few people are willing to contribute to documentation On a bright note, I think zopewiki.org could change that. It *greatly* lowers the bar on contributing substantive docs for Zope. I would implore all of you (as in you, the reader of this message, yes you!) to go there and write something, now! You know something that has not been written down yet, so go write it down! You can even do so anonymously. That's a great points. Wikis *can* definitely really speed up the documentation process. Of course wikis can also die, but the low bar towards contribution is really really helpful. Just take a look at www.wikipedia.org for an extremely impressive example of what is possible. Regards, Martijn ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?!
Martijn Faassen wrote: Jim Fulton wrote: I'm surprised to read this. Could you be more specific about your concerns? Did you read Andreas Jung's mail? He was pretty specific, but I had to hunt around as in my mailreader his reply had broken the thread. I was responding to Philipp, not Andreas. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?
Jamie Heilman wrote: .. Oh, and about Maik's comment that ZC is the bottleneck in Z2 dev--Jim, I think it was Andreas you might not agree with Maik, but hidden security bugs over a year old aren't something the rest of the community can do anything about. Are you suggesting that we hid them? As soon as we found out about them, we mobilized the whole company to work on them. This was a big deal that we put a lot of effort into over a fairly short time. How is this evidence that we were a bottleneck? Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?
Jim Fulton wrote: Oh, and about Maik's comment that ZC is the bottleneck in Z2 dev--Jim, I think it was Andreas Ah, you're right, oh well apart from who said it... you might not agree with Maik, but hidden security bugs over a year old aren't something the rest of the community can do anything about. Are you suggesting that we hid them? As soon as we found out about them, we mobilized the whole company to work on them. This was a big deal that we put a lot of effort into over a fairly short time. How is this evidence that we were a bottleneck? I think you're confusing the past with the present. There is at least 1 hidden security bug thats been sitting in the queue for a year *right now*. I'm not talking about the stuff that was fixed in the last audit. As for why they are hidden, well thats, the [EMAIL PROTECTED] collector that encourages it, and as ZC runs the collector that puts the ball squarely in ZC's court. -- Jamie Heilman http://audible.transient.net/~jamie/ You came all this way, without saying squat, and now you're trying to tell me a '56 Chevy can beat a '47 Buick in a dead quarter mile? I liked you better when you weren't saying squat kid. -Buddy ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?
--On Mittwoch, 21. April 2004 10:41 Uhr -0400 Casey Duncan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On a bright note, I think zopewiki.org could change that. It *greatly* lowers the bar on contributing substantive docs for Zope. I would implore all of you (as in you, the reader of this message, yes you!) to go there and write something, now! You know something that has not been written down yet, so go write it down! You can even do so anonymously. Yeah...just had a look a zopewiki.org it seems to be a great place. I wonder why we were not able to built a such place there were it would belong to: zope.org? Andreas ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?
On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 20:36:29 +0200 Andreas Jung [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --On Mittwoch, 21. April 2004 10:41 Uhr -0400 Casey Duncan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On a bright note, I think zopewiki.org could change that. It *greatly* lowers the bar on contributing substantive docs for Zope. I would implore all of you (as in you, the reader of this message, yes you!) to go there and write something, now! You know something that has not been written down yet, so go write it down! You can even do so anonymously. Yeah...just had a look a zopewiki.org it seems to be a great place. I wonder why we were not able to built a such place there were it would belong to: zope.org? I see no reason why it being or not being on Zope.org is relevant. Its a social thing: Simon decided to do something and had the software, bandwidth and hardware to do it. People have gravitated to it and it looks like it has momentum. I see no downside, Darwin has spoken... ;^) -Casey ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?
From: Jim Fulton [EMAIL PROTECTED] Year checkins people 2002 7090 33 2003 5276 34 2004 1103 24 # First 3 1/2 months There is some decline, as one would expect in a mature product. Also, I expect most people is like me. I only fix bugs if they bite me, and I understand them OR if there is a bugday, and I understand them and I'm not too stressed out at the office. This means that we need more bugdays. A typical bugday squishes a whole bunch of bugs. They bugs will be harder to squish the more bugdays we have, since the easy one will be squished first, but no matter. ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?
On Wed, Apr 21, 2004 at 10:41:27AM -0400, Casey Duncan wrote: I agree that bugs deserve more attention. We need to have more bug days. I meant to suggest a date last week, but I got diverted. How would people feel about next Thursday, April 29? Stop feeling and do it! No, I can't join, because I'll be on my way to Sweden that day. So, then have another bug day a couple of weeks later, maybe I can join then. And so on, and so on... Of course, my greatest contribution usually is closing bugs reports that are really support questions, but hey, it's still squishes! :-) ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
RE: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?
[Max M] Or perhaps an automated nightly Windows build. [Stephan Richter] We have talked about it many times before, but simply lack the bandwidth. Maybe you could provide this for Cygwin? [Max M] Argh ... that wasn't fair. Ok I will try and find some time to look into it. A problem is that every platform has its own unique bag of miserable quirks. Case in point: before we released ZODB 3.3a3 last Friday (which is also the ZODB in the current Zope2 and Zope3 CVS HEADs), I tried to run the ZODB/ZEO test suite under Cygwin on WinXP Pro. Disaster is a fair assessment -- every time the test framework tried to spawn a ZEO process, it died instantly, with a Cygwin-specific message I didn't understand. So you need to be a real platform fan to get a minority platform to work; while I like Cygwin well enough, I rarely use it, and don't have time or interest to pursue it as a hobby. Maybe this is (still) relevant to building Zope under Cygwin, maybe not: http://www.zope.org/Members/dgeorgieff/howto_zope_cvs_on_cygwin/index_html What exactly is needed? I routinely compile Zope2 and Zope3 HEAD on Windows, using MSVC 6. I can't make time to set up a fancy snapshot procedure, but if all people want is (e.g.) a zip file containing the .pyd files, uploading those once a week wouldn't be a significant time sink. ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
RE: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?
Maybe this is (still) relevant to building Zope under Cygwin, maybe not: http://www.zope.org/Members/dgeorgieff/howto_zope_cvs_on_cygwin/index_ht ml Python release23-maint and Zope 2.7 just builds fine on cygwin with the usual ./configure, make, make install sequence. Regards, Sandor ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
