Re: [ZWeb] new.zope.org still in the works?
Hi there, new.zope.org is dead for two reasons: * it seemed to be big a project to get enough volunteer content. I hope that microsites will avoid this problem. * there were issues with the design, the legal terms surrounding the design, the responsiveness of the designer and the implementation of the design. As a result, the zope foundation board decided to give up on this issue. If you want to help out get a zope 2 site set up, perhaps modelled after grok.zope.org (where we combine a Plone 3 site with sphinx), by all means contribute! Or any other micro-site that strikes your fancy: zodb.zope.org, for instance. It looks like we still need to do something sane with providing a design that isn't encumbered as the new.zope.org design was. Regards, Martijn ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: [ZWeb] svn server broken
Hi there, Before noticing svn.zope.org was down, I noticed that buildouts seem to be failing/hanging somewhere in httplib. I now suspect this is possibly because various setup.py's have a 'url' entry that references svn.zope.org and setuptools might go off and try to read it, resulting in a hang of the buildout process. If it's possible to make http://svn.zope.org do a clear sorry, i'm not here instead of the current behavior where the browser is spinning when you try to access it, that might help. If this is too distracting currently, please ignore this message - I'm not even sure whether this fixes my issues. Regards, Martijn ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: [ZWeb] Fwd: [ZF] foundation site confusion
Andrew Sawyers wrote: Looks like it's working right herebut the redirect isn't going to the beta pages. Yeah, let's redirect it to foundation.zope.org, that's better than what's in the original place. We should also make www.zope.org/foundation point to foundation.zope.org. I do not believe there's anything in /foundation that isn't represented in foundation.zope.org. Regards, Martijn ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: [ZWeb] the wikis is evil discussion
Simon Michael wrote: Thanks Martijn, all. We made some good progress. For clarity, I heard no arguments against me trying the below so right now I have this action and will report any results here asap. (11:01:29) sm: yes, some good progress (11:01:40) sm: increased clarity understanding of next steps anyway (11:02:35) sm: it sounds like I should try mirroring the wikis like you suggest, so I hope to start some of that and follow up soon (11:07:58) sm: mirroring some wikis alongside zopewiki.org, starting with zope 3 wiki (11:08:29) sm: and see how that goes.. if it's a success we could deprecate the old wikis (11:09:08) sm: and then later I imagine they would move to a zope foundation zope server Hey, I'm really happy you're looking into this, Simon! For increased understanding and communication (something that I think I've learned we didn't always have recently :), could you expand on what your plans are concerning steps surrounding the wiki? Regards, Martijn ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
[ZWeb] I go away for a few days :)
Hey, I go away for a few days (to a Zope 3 sprint in Germany, still there), and lots happened! Sorry I wasn't involved earlier, I only got caught up today. Let's first start with the pieces of *good news*: * we got a team of people very much involved with DNS now and the situation seems to be well in hand *now* * we are making great steps towards finally having a Zope Foundation website. * we have people working on Apache and we have moved closer towards a microsites solution for zope.org, which will make evolution and eventual migration to a different server solution a lot easier. Now as to the bad news: the whole Justizin situation. I feel I must apologize for taking up Justizin as a volunteer. My defense: at the time he seemed like a reasonable person and he was the only one that I noticed stepped up as a volunteer. While I understand some of his frustration, his outbursts made him clearly unacceptable. I'm glad he has had the wisdom to step back, though a bit more grace on his part might've been in order. Thanks everybody for stepping up and resolving both the DNS issues and the situation. Let's all consider these teething problems for our zope-web community. The positive side-effect of this debacle is that he did energize lots of people. Next time I need to energize a bunch of people I shall create a sock-puppet. :) Regards, Martijn ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
[ZWeb] the wikis is evil discussion
Hey, Okay, Fred accidentally sparked something there. Let's all calm down first. Thanks. :) This is what we're going to do: * zope.org is going to be evolved using the microsites approach. * we're also look into getting some simple stuff done on zope.org. While we will try touching zope.org's software as much as possible, we *will* have to evolve it forward somewhat even if only to move functionality *off* zope.org. * we are going to move parts of zope.org onto a new server that is not managed by ZC, removing ZC as a bottleneck. This *is* going to happen. I'm working on this. Concerning the management structure of all this, it's pretty simple: volunteers concerning zope.org answer to me, unless I delegate the job. That includes Jim, so if Jim and Sidnei are going to work on something at 4 am in the night or whatever, they should come to me first and tell me what they want to do. We got into a pattern of blaming and defensiveness, and all kinds of old discussions flare up. I understand why, but that's counterproductive. Let's forget about the old and focus on the new, people. We're all flawed, human people of brainpower and good will and we can do this. Regards, Martijn ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: [ZWeb] Fwd: zope.org DNS screwed up
Andrew Sawyers wrote: Can we get the access info spread to a larger group please. I believe jens and myself are good candidates. I'm glad Justin is on it now. :) Sharing access is an important priority. I also listed Chris Withers as he showed an interest. Regards, Martijn ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: [ZWeb] serving up static files from www.zope.org
Justizin wrote: On 9/28/06, Martijn Faassen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Chris Withers wrote: Justizin wrote: I don't want to take all the cookies, but like I said, I already own a bunch of apaches, including siggraph.org and turing.acm.org, as a volunteer. I'd prefer the stuff we're talking about to live ideally on ZC's hardware... I don't think Justizin was suggesting we run this stuff off other hardware. Nah, I simply meant that I don't mind being responsible for another Apache installation / configuration. Okay, since nobody else stepped up, you're now the Apache static file admin. The first step is to get you set up with access permissions. I'll go see who can help you there. I assume you're willing to sign a Zope Corporation agreement before you get access? The stuff is running on their hosting infrastructure right now and they want to be careful. The first thing I must do is acutally hunt up that agreement, which I've never seen myself. :) On the medium to long term, I *would* like to pull in other hardware besides ZC's, by the way. Of course that would need to be on the basis of a well-supported machine. Eventually the ZF will want to take over the zope.org hosting, and probably not from within the context of ZC's hosting environment. I will take the next opportunity I have to bring this up with ACM HQ. We have about fifty servers in Verizon / NYC, and this might be a good way for us to begin contributing to the community at an organizational level. :) Great! Regards, Martijn ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: [ZWeb] serving up static files from www.zope.org
Justizin wrote: On 9/27/06, Martijn Faassen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snip] So, who is volunteering to be Static Czar? I don't want to take all the cookies, but like I said, I already own a bunch of apaches, including siggraph.org and turing.acm.org, as a volunteer. The latter probably contains a thousand sites and requires very little attention - one more will barely weigh in. Does it have to be Czar? ;d No, we can make it serf if you prefer. Probably DNS admin and Apache admin is better. :) Thanks for the offer! We'll give it a day and see who else volunteers. If nobody, I'll certainly take you up on it. Regards. Martijn ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: [ZWeb] Apache, anyone?
Chris Withers wrote: Lennart Regebro wrote: Personally, I don't care where www.zope.org is currently located, and I also think we should replace it part by part with microsites, like wiki.zope.org, bugs.zope.org, news.zope.org, products.zope.org and so on, Be careful the multiple domain names, it prevents sensible cookie-based auth. For that reason alone, I'd prefer to see zope.org/wiki, zope.org/bugs, zope.org/news, etc instead. Good point, though it depends on whether we want authentication. I imagine we do want that in case with the wiki. It really feels like we need a foundation-admin'ed Apache in front of everything somewhere, just to handle rewriting/static content/etc. Is that a possiblity? I want to move in that direction, but it's not a near-term possibility. We can rewire things inside of Squid though if we asked overworked ZC admins nicely.. Regards, Martijn ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: [ZWeb] http://namespaces.zope.org/zope
Justizin wrote: So.. I was talking to Philipp the other day on IRC, wondering why http://namespaces.zope.org/zope Doesn't actually exist on on the intarweb. At first I wondered if it was a requirement, like for a DTD, and P says no, so I believe him. We did agree that it would be nice if something lived here talking about ZCML, which is what the w3c does for their namespaces, like: http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml Of course, I volunteer. First, thank you for volunteering! Right, it's indeed not a requirement, the namespace URL is just a way to get uniqueness, but it'd indeed be nice if something lived there. We're currently investigating mechanisms by which we (as the community) can manage the nameserver for zope.org - a requirement to bring namespaces.zope.org into being. We're also trying to figure out what could be listening on the other end. What I would propose if you write the documents you want to sit on the other end for the various ZCML namespaces, and put them up somewhere for us to review. Once we're happy with them, we'll work on putting them online. Regards, Martijn ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: Zope.org DNS ( was Re: [ZWeb] http://namespaces.zope.org/zope )
Justizin wrote: On 9/26/06, Martijn Faassen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snip] I'm glad to be the lead, and I'm glad for either of the other guys to be the lead. ;d You're the only one volunteering for this right now, as far as I can see, so if you think you and Jens can get along after this DNS initiation rite or whatever you two were having just now, you're now the official lead. :) Great, thanks! Whoever you decide to nag, I think the three of us can hammer this out. Excellent. By the way, are you a Zope Foundation member in any way? I'm not sure whether it matters at this stage, just checking. * A plan of action worked out between the three of you. I basically need to know what needs to be done bureaucratically from the side of Zope Corporation and the Foundation to get this arranged. I'll leave the actual work to you all - I intend to only be there when stuff needs to be expedited somehow. Okay. We will need: * A copy of the existing zope.org zone files * Cooperation from [EMAIL PROTECTED] to change the NS record pointers * A list of people who need access in ZoneEdit I will contact Rob and try to get the ball rolling. I'll pass it back to you guys as soon as possible. Regards, Martijn ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: [ZWeb] Re: the maintenance of change logs
Hey, I missed this so I'm very happy Jens cc-ed this onto this list. Incidentally I'd like to float the idea of moving zopewiki to (some incarnation of) zope.org. Eg put it at zope.org/wiki +1 on the idea, it wouldn't even have to be in the same Zope instance, rewrite rules can do the stitching-in. I'd assume this is more of a foundation decision, though? Consider this a foundation decision, let's do it. zope.org/wiki is the way to go. Separate instance with rewrite rules sounds a good plan to me. Jens, do you have enough zope.org fu to get this set up? Right now the whole zope.org is technically a complete unknown to me. Right now the implementation is the only thing stopping this from going ahead. :) Regards, Martijn ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
[ZWeb] Re: updated zope foundation website texts in svn.zope.org
Darryl Cousins wrote: Hi Martijn, I'll take a look at the code, to investigate whether we want to maintain this on svn.zope.org eventually. Are you a svn.zope.org committer, by any chance? My signed Zope contributors agreement went in the mail last week. Great! Faxes to Jim tend to speed up the process, by the way. The code uses mod_python/vampire/docutils/ZopePageTemplates. It's not terribly fast. It may be just as easy to convert it to zope.org's Plone/CMF at a later date. Your call. Understood, and thank you. Regards, Martijn ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: [ZWeb] Re: the maintenance of change logs
Andrew Sawyers wrote: This is all documented in subversion IIRC. Jim will know. We need to make sure there are people in the foundation (besides Jim and ZC) who know. I'll ask Jim. Regards, Martijn ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: [ZWeb] Re: the maintenance of change logs
Lennart Regebro wrote: On 9/25/06, Andrew Sawyers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The reason it should be done, would be to improve the underlying hardware. The other reason would be so that the community can manage all aspects of it's setup. If it's still like it was, then parts of the architecture are not going to be accessible by anyone in the community. If I were doing it, I would put as little effort into the existing setup as possible and all effort into where it's going. I totaly agree with that. Me too. I'm trying to figure out how to get from here to there. Preferably I just let zope.org be what it is, and surround it with stuff that runs from new instances, either as foo.zope.org or zope.org/foo. We have several candidates to run from other instances: Particular applications: planet.zope.org wiki.zope.org Fairly simple websites, at least to start out, later we can move to CMS: www.zope.org/foundation www.zope.org/zope3 and whatever our projects infrastructure will be like: big projects: www.zope.org/projects/cmf www.zope.org/projects/zc.buildout and smaller projects: www.zope.org/projects/zc.resourcelibrary www.zope.org/projects/zc.table Regards, Martijn ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: [ZWeb] Re: the maintenance of change logs
Andrew Sawyers wrote: We just need to resurface the svn location of the doc and update if necessary. Working on getting it. Regards, Martijn ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: [ZWeb] Re: the maintenance of change logs
Lennart Regebro wrote: On 9/25/06, Jim Fulton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Unfortunately all the pieces above Zope, like rewrite setups, are out of reach and only accessible by ZC. Right. So... A minimum change would be to move name servering to somewhere controlled by ZF? Yes, this is something Jim actually just proposed as well. Regards, Martijn ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
[ZWeb] we now have a repository for ZF restructured text
Hi there, The official repository for restructured text that will become the Zope Foundation website is here: http://svn.zope.org/web/zf/trunk You can check it out: svn co svn://svn.zope.org/repos/main/web/zf/trunk zf You can also do a writeable checkout if you have permissions: svn co svn+ssh://svn.zopeorg/repos/main/web/zf/trunk zf If you have small fixes, please just check them in. If you have fixes that change the *meaning* of the text, i.e. something the board members need to review, please post a note on this list, or alternatively let me know directly on irc (#zope-web on freenode). There's a little script 'htmlize.py' that uses rst2html to transform it all to HTML. It doesn't do the template/navigation bit, it's just a way to test whether the content is correct. Please do not check in any generated html. Regards, Martijn ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: [ZWeb] volunteer for transforming ReST + templates into HTML
Darryl Cousins wrote: [snip] index.html - docs/ index.html other-docs.html - foo/ index.html other-foo-docs.html - other-home-directory-docs.html Thats the structure we are aiming at? That's the generated structure. Something like: foo.txt bar.txt baz index.txt qux.txt hoi index.txt dag.txt would become: foo.html bar.html baz index.html qux.html hoi index.html dag.html Possibly ripping off the .html everywhere to turn it into: foo bar baz index qux hoi index dag 2. How does 'upload to zope.org' work? As to the ReST, I want to start maintaining that in the svn.zope.org repository. Yup. Some script could be run to synchronize the different components: rest.svn.zope.org - zf.www.rest -- zf.tfws.org.nz -- [wget?] -- zope.org Worst of the worse, we keep in touch and I syncronise it manually. Not a big job. not sure what these components all do, but some script that checkso ut the rest from svn.zope.org, runs it through your generator, and uploads the HTML and images up onto zope.org. And later, do it all with zope3 :-D Yeah, Zope 3 or whatever. I'm trying to avoid us from geeking out on the tech and focusing on the immediate tasks. :) I'm trying to figure this out. On the near term, we may just upload all of this into a plain zope on zope.org every time we make changes. Unsure of meaning: `a plain zope`. ?? Oh, zope.org has some odd variety of Plone, but normal Zope 2 stuff still works in areas, including the /foundation part. So we could simply upload them as page templates into the zope. I'd prefer it if it were something simpler, but that might be easiest given the infrastructure. [snip] Finally, eventually this should be converted into CMS content for one CMS or another. That'll take a lot of hosting infrastructure work to get done first, though. Keep core/source data in directory/restfile then anything is possible. Keep it simple. I think that any reasonable cms will be able to import the structured data and generate a site using a given template. Yes, keeping it simple and in ReST for now is my goal. Eventually we may need some forms though: join the foundation! but we can make do with email addresses for now. Regards, Martijn ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: [ZWeb] volunteer for transforming ReST + templates into HTML
Justizin wrote: I think there is already python code for doing this: http://www.zope.org/Members/k_vertigo/Products/CMFDeployment Thanks. This is assuming the data is already in Zope and specifically a CMF site, though. I'm trying to avoid the whole technology equation for the time being. I don't know how long I can keep this up. :) Sorry for being out of the loop, as I just joined the list yesterday. Could you elaborate on what content you're talking about? Would it be easier to write custom code outside of Zope to do this work than to import some ReST content into a CMF site of sorts, i.e. Zope.org? I just have restructured text files which need to be wrapped into a template with navigation, turning them into HTML pages, which then need to be published, somehow, on zope.org. Regards, Martijn ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
[ZWeb] volunteer for transforming ReST + templates into HTML
Hi there, I started doing some work on transforming the restructured text content + templates into HTML pages, but I didn't get very far, and I figured instead I ask a volunteer. So, the task: Write code (such as a Python script) that takes the restructured text files (that I will send you) and wraps the layout (that I will also send you) around it, making the menus and such work. The result should be a bunch of HTML pages that can be served by Apache. If you're interested, drop me a mail. Regards, Martijn ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: [ZWeb] volunteer for transforming ReST + templates into HTML
Justizin wrote: On 9/18/06, Martijn Faassen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi there, I started doing some work on transforming the restructured text content + templates into HTML pages, but I didn't get very far, and I figured instead I ask a volunteer. So, the task: Write code (such as a Python script) that takes the restructured text files (that I will send you) and wraps the layout (that I will also send you) around it, making the menus and such work. The result should be a bunch of HTML pages that can be served by Apache. If you're interested, drop me a mail. I think there is already python code for doing this: http://www.zope.org/Members/k_vertigo/Products/CMFDeployment Thanks. This is assuming the data is already in Zope and specifically a CMF site, though. I'm trying to avoid the whole technology equation for the time being. I don't know how long I can keep this up. :) Regards, Martijn ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: [ZWeb] Re: website design discussion
Tom Von Lahndorff wrote: semi-stretchable Would be nice if IE supported min-width and max-width in css. It doesn't. The only way I've seen anyone get that to work in IE is with some nasty javascript hack. We can keep going down this road though, fine with me. We'll be here for literally weeks and months going through all of the pros and cons of fixed vs. fluid layouts that have been debated for years. There is no right answer. I'm not out to discuss this stuff for weeks and months at all, I'm just asking fairly reasonable questions from the perspective of someone who doesn't know much about the intricacies of web site layouts. To answer my own question, it's clear from your response it *is* very difficult to make it semi stretchable, so we will let it be for now. We can always come back to it later. [snip] p.p.s. I will be working on the Linux rendering issues which is actually a good example of the real challenges with web design. Getting a standards based site to look good on IE an Firefox on a PC is a (nightmarish at times) challenge alone (mostly thanks to IE's lack of standards support). Getting it to work on every browser on every OS and look good is a boatload of work. My focus is to do just that while keeping the html and css *clean* and free of hacks and javascript as much as possible. Also, keeping the html reusable to easily implement future design changes and as maintenance free as possible. I'm surprised Firefox on linux is so different from Firefox on other platforms. [snip] Right now the biggest problem that Zope, zope.org as well as other zope products/properties suffers from is useability and marketing. The least of any problems is what color the sites are, whether the pages are fluid or fixed width or whatever. The real problem is that no knows what Zope is, how it works or how to use the sites. Look, you're doing a web design and you can reasonably expect some feedback from people. It's not a complete disaster. Ranting about how terrible I am for asking a few simple questions is not very productive either. If something is hard to do or unwise, I'm sure it can be communicated in a way that's a little bit less confrontational. Sorry for the rant back. :) Lets get past these basic design issues, get a test site up and running and start getting our hands dirty. Lets implement the html and css and then get down to brass tacks and start the *real* work of editorializing the content so that it's understandable to newcomers as well as veterans, making content easily accessible and clearly labeled, providing easy to use interfaces and functionality. This is exactly what I'm doing. I'm already editorializing content, it's just that nobody seems to be very interested in discussing *that* on this mailing list so far. Anyway, quite apart from this mini-debate, I'm still grateful for your efforts, so thank you again. Regards, Martijn ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
[ZWeb] Re: website design discussion
Hey, Tom Von Lahndorff wrote: http://www.modscape.com/zope Please let me know of any bugs and what your browsers/os setup is. Thanks for doing this work. Zope Foundation Design 1, Version 1 * Try the nav. * Updated the colors of the nav to make it stand out more. * Added the extras box to the top right hand side of the main column. * Not going to make a fluid layout because: o Trading in having the space on the sides for less control over all page layouts. I'm going for functional control in this case over a prettier layout. o The current page is laid out to work on 800 x 600 and above. Most people will view the site at 1024 x 786 or 800 x 600 and not see large gaps on the side. Is 800x600 that common these days? o The simple nature of the site means a thinner page is more appropriate. Most of the content will be text that is easier to read the less wide the page is. This is not some multi column news site that has multiple content boxes. That's too bad; it still looks like a huge amount of screen real estate is wasted in my browser. More than one third, though granted the screen on this laptop is wide (but then the browser is windowed). I'd have preferred something more left-aligned myself, then at least my eyes aren't drawn into the blue ocean when I start reading. Most sites I open on my laptop seem to either stretchable (perhaps only to a certain extent, so text doesn't flow all the way), or leave the empty space on the right, though there is a minority of sites that are down the middle like this one, in particular blogger. I think we could have multiple content boxes by the way, at least for news items and for Become a member!. The boxes being flowed inside the text is not really what I was looking for, and I enjoyed the boxes in version 3 of design 1. * Not going to add a top navigation because: o Its inconsistent. The navigation should be in one place. period. I find Plone to be confusing and annoying in it's use of seperate nav areas. 2 Navs will cause confusion on the front and back end of things. Im sticking with a standard left hand navigation based on an unordered list that will make sense normally, without a stylesheet, on text readers, mobile browsers... It's good it works in text readers. It's not good it doesn't work in Firefox 1.5 in linux. :) It still looks bad, exactly like before - the text just flows into each other making the navigation menu unreadable and therefore unusable. I still prefer version 3 of design 1, except for the drop-down nature of the menus on top. I'd been happy if that just turned into a sidebar on the left instead of going down this route... Regards, Martijn ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: [ZWeb] Re: website design discussion
Lennart Regebro wrote: On 9/4/06, Martijn Faassen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is 800x600 that common these days? Hardly by people that would be interested in Zope, right? Trying it again on a 1200x1024 screen, with a window not full-screen so it's more like 1024 (my usual browser side), I still get sizable blue on both sides. Anyway, I think the important decision here is to make it readable. And that means that the content column should not fill out the whole page. On a 1600 pixel widescreen that looks like shit. And the content column is a good size now, and it looks fine on my 1024 screen. On my widescreen, it looks weird, but not as weird as it would look with wider content column. It seems to me we're debating a strawman argument. I don't think anybody is debating the text should stretch fully. All I am saying: with the current style, I see a lot of blue that does nothing. I think there are ways to make this less of a problem: * make the text area wider. Still fixed, but wider. * add a sidebar on the left like in version 3 design 1. * there are ways to make the design flow up to a point, but not all the way. I don't know how hard this is to accomplish, but I believe I've seen it done. This design is good. In fact, it's great. If we really want to use up more screen space, we could move the extras to a separate column, but I like the current way better. I'd prefer the extras to be in a separate column indeed, and I like them as they are in version 3 of design 1. Regards, Martijn ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
[ZWeb] Re: website design discussion
Hey Tom, Thinking about this item some more, I thought I'd talk a bit about what we're trying to accomplish. Tom Von Lahndorff wrote: o The simple nature of the site means a thinner page is more appropriate. Most of the content will be text that is easier to read the less wide the page is. This is not some multi column news site that has multiple content boxes. My intent with this layout round was not to create a layout for just the Zope Foundation site, but for it to work for the Zope site as a whole (eventually; we'll take this step by step, where the ZF site is the first step). Some room for content boxes would therefore be nice, though I expect it wouldn't be used on every page. I don't know whether that will change anything in your thinking about the layout, I just wanted to be clear that we're not just working on the Zope Foundation site here - that's just the first stage. An alternative would be to have separate designs for Foundation and the rest of the site. Anyone have opinions on whether this is a good or bad idea? Regards, Martijn ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: [ZWeb] Re: website design discussion
Jens Vagelpohl wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 4 Sep 2006, at 10:26, Martijn Faassen wrote: o Trading in having the space on the sides for less control over all page layouts. I'm going for functional control in this case over a prettier layout. o The current page is laid out to work on 800 x 600 and above. Most people will view the site at 1024 x 786 or 800 x 600 and not see large gaps on the side. Is 800x600 that common these days? It is very common to have users who will see scrollbars with fixed 1024 width designs. Including me on the 12 iBook. One reason I normally hate fixed width designs with a passion is because I get scrollbars, most designs seem to be fixed for 1024 pixel screens. Here's an example of a fixed width design that was fixed at a width too big for my screen: http://www.zope.de/ I can't stand it. Tom made a wise choice. And please don't add columns to make it wider. Good point; I get scrollbars on that site as well (on a 1200 wide screen this time, but I almost never maximize my browser). That's a good argument against content boxes on the right side, at least in a fixed design. I wonder whether it would be very difficult/unwise to make the content area semi-stretchable as one can see on some sites. That is, doesn't stretch all the way on a wide screen, but stretches/compresses partially. Regards, Martijn ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: [ZWeb] Re: website design discussion
Jens Vagelpohl wrote: An alternative would be to have separate designs for Foundation and the rest of the site. Anyone have opinions on whether this is a good or bad idea? I was under the impression that the two were separate and we were trying to decide on a design for the foundation first, because that site should be up ASAP. I fear if we try to come up with a design for both we'll end up in analysis paralysis again. +1 for a separate foundation site design in the interest of getting the site *done*. Whether that same design ends up on zope.org as a whole is a decision we could take later. Convincing argument for keeping the layouts separate (for now at least). Anyway, the main show-stopper right now is that the nav doesn't work in Firefox 1.5 on Linux. All the other issues are things we could easily tweak later. Regards, Martijn ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: [ZWeb] Re: website design discussion
Lennart Regebro wrote: On 8/28/06, Martijn Faassen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: * I get text flowing into each other in the sidebar. About The Foundation overlaps whatever is on the next line, with the word Foundation on the next line. There's another such instance lower down, where it says Foundation..Projects? (can't read). This is on firefox 1.5 on linux. Hmm. Me too. But Firefox 1.5 on Windows work fine. Interesting. I'll leave my comments, even though I'm protesting against this kind of design by comittee. :-) Hm. In the end once I'm happy with the design, and I am very close to being happy, we'll proceed from there, unless someone can convince me otherwise. I use my special Zope Foundation powers here. :) That said, I think feedback from a range of people can be useful. I'd prefer a top row of top categories, and a left-column of subcategories when it comes to navigaton. Yes, this is actually, I think, the same as my feedback, effectively. A top row of major categories, similar to the menu in version 3, without the dropdowns, with a sidebar of categories too. I don't mind leaving space at all. In fact, on a wide-screen sreen, not doing that makes the text have extremely long lines, which is hard to read. Of course, this should not be decided by margin-sizes, instead it should be the min content column that has a fixed sixe. Right, while some margins would be all right with me too, the version 3 layout has *smaller* margins on at least my screen, and I was looking to replicate some of that structure in the new version. Regards, Martijn ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: [ZWeb] Re: website design discussion
Hey, Tom Von Lahndorff wrote: - What content do we need and where should it go. I'm working on the content itself, so no need to concern yourself too much with this during the design phase, except where it's needed to flesh out the design aspects, of course. As I already mentioned, I think a top-level navigation with left sidebar for subnavigation would be nice to see (though what you have works too). Also nice for content is the ability to easily include one or more blue boxes on the right sidebar. - Suggestions for better functionality (like the title bars of a table should be clickable to rank items by that criteria). Don't think we need such functionality yet, but I'll keep my eye out for it. - This page blows up in my browser or the nav doesnt work. Right, the left menu doesn't quite work in Firefox 1.5 on linux. - Suggestions for homepage content (News and updates RSS Feeds, Testmonials...). We're first looking into the foundation homepage. I've just written some text for it. We'll have news on it too, so a RSS/Atom feed button might be nice. These questions are of course important for the zope.org homepage proper. - Editing of text if some information is too wordy or confusing. Where'd you get the text from? I wasn't sure whether you were writing text too. :) [snip] Im trying to avoid design by committee. No worries, I've unilaterally declared myself the single point you need to talk to about this layout. I can do this as I represent the Zope Foundation board and am authorized to make decisions. (and because Aroldo, my board partner on zope-web, will hopefully let me get away with it. :) Regards, Martijn ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: [ZWeb] Re: rough draft of site
foundation web team wrote: This is concering the new zope foundation site draft we are focusing only structure NOT content. Obviously structure and content (as well as good presentation) are all important. We can't really set up a good structure if we don't think about the content, too, right? we are using properties to store memberships and will complete the list based on what jim gave us sometime ago (so its not a complete list) we are not going to create any software . I think this is responding to my earlier, private feedback, where I was worried that a property on a page template was used to maintain the membership list, along with a python script in the ZODB. My suggestion is not to worry too much about the presentation of this list right now, and not worrying about the way it's stored. I don't think it's the most important problem we need to solve in the construction of the foundation website. If you all have any feedback on structure please let us know. Did you read my structure mail that I sent to this list previously? It's not feedback directly, but it discusses structure. I've just forwarded it to you; I'm not sure I did before. Regards, Martijn ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: [ZWeb] Re: volunteers wanted! zope foundation website as guinea pig
Tom Von Lahndorff wrote: Yeah, thats the problem. Because IE6 doesnt fully support the hover function in CSS you need a javascript 'hack' to get a flyout to work. It actually a very small and clean script, but an IE hack nonetheless. More info here: http://www.htmldog.com/articles/suckerfish/dropdowns/ I think we could have submenus display under the menu item once a section is clicked, but until IE gets it together (Im not reading too many promising reviews of IE7) we should probably avoid any 'IE hacks'. Instead of worrying about the drop-downs too much, I'd really like to see a template that uses a fairly standard left-hand-side navigation (perhaps with major categories on the top). www.plone.org uses this pattern, for instance. Regards, Martijn ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
[ZWeb] Re: volunteers wanted! zope foundation website as guinea pig
Chris Withers wrote: Martijn Faassen wrote: * possibly no drop-down menus at the top. We could simply have links there, or possibly a standard left-hand side navigation. This design is the top page; we need to see a sub-page design as well. I like the dropdowns ;-) Tom said he'd work on a version without dropdowns, so we'll see; I'm leaning strongly to a non-dropdown structure myself. I think a version without dropdowns might fit better in, say, a Plone site, which is interesting as we're exploring the plone.org hosting infrastructure offer as well. Regards, Martijn ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: [ZWeb] volunteers wanted! zope foundation website as guinea pig
Andrew Sawyers wrote: What's up with zopefoundation.org - especially since it's changed since I looked at it yesterday? :P) We were making sure zopefoundation.org points to www.zope.org/foundation. zopefoundation.org was on a completely separate system that Mark Pratt was kind enough to set up for us, but the board decided it was not for us for the time being. Since then we've made zopefoundation.org point to the canonical location, which is, to repeat: http://www.zope.org/foundation Regards, Martijn ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
[ZWeb] Re: volunteers wanted! zope foundation website as guinea pig
Tom Von Lahndorff wrote: I'm here. I'll tweak the design per the suggestions below and send it out. I actually worked on another one since then. Ill send that out as well. Tom, you're awesome! Thanks! Regards, Martijn ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: [ZWeb] volunteers wanted! zope foundation website as guinea pig
Lennart Regebro wrote: On 8/22/06, Martijn Faassen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snip] I propose letting www.zope.org/foundation point to a Apache directory, where we maintain HTML files. We will then generate such HTML files from restructured text we maintain in the zope SVN repository, using a simple script that drives docutils. I'm torn between on one hand, the sillyness of not using Zope + what I think is a bit tricky from a maintaining point of view and on the other hand, the benefit of having things versioned. I have worked with the codespeak stuff, and I can't really say I like it, although it makes sense when it comes to code, with the automatic tarball generation form release tags and all that. Yes, this strategy indeed makes more sense with code (where documentation is often maintained along with the code) than with something like this site. In the end, what I care most about it that things happen now. So if this is faster than setting up a plone/cps/silva site, then by all means, go ahead. I do think it's faster to get going with this. [snip] However, integrating that layout into something that can be used primarily on Plone (or CPS. Or maybe both, with CPSSkins) usable for any *.zope.org microsites seems to be to be a worthwhile task. That's a very welcome offer! We have a (hopefully still) standing offer from the Plone community to host the site on the plone.org infrastructure that we definitely need to investigate. I hope we can all have this together in a couple of weeks, Weeks? Wasn't it working yesterday? :-) On 8/22/06, Andrew Sawyers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What's up with zopefoundation.org - especially since it's changed since I looked at it yesterday? :P) Yeah, I second that question. :^) It seems to me that the fastest way of doing this is doing what was done yesterday, and redirecting www.zope.org/foundation there. Unfortunately it was in a hosted environment entirely separate from zope.org or even the zope community as far as I'm aware. We also had the impression that it seemed to offer limited content management facilities - more facilities to maintain members and so on, but we don't have a need for something like that just yet. Regards, Martijn ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
[ZWeb] website design discussion
[taking people off the cc list, changing the title] Tom Von Lahndorff wrote: http://modscape.com/zope I added Design 2. I like it much better than Design 1. I think we should work off of Design 2 Thoughts? Hey, great! I'm afraid I prefer design 1, myself. :) What do you like better about design 2? I kind of liked the watery theme on top in design 1. I also liked better the way the boxes in the main area rendered, though we'll probably not need them for a typical sub page which will presumably contain text. Finally, there's more unused space on the left side in design 2, design 1 seemed more efficient that way. Note that both design 1 and design 2 have a slight problem in the rendering of the menu, the word 'documentation' is too long and runs into the next entry. This is on Firefox 1.5.0.5 on linux. I'd still like to see the design for a sub-page. After all, we're mostly going to see such sub pages. That is, no blue boxes on the side; that's something good on a front page, and plain text in the middle (perhaps with an image or two). Since I'm not a big fan of pull-down menus for navigation myself, perhaps some of the sidebar space could be used for navigation (I'd prefer the left hand side), instead of the menus on top, or perhaps we could use some of the space for info boxes. plone.org uses tabs on the top for major areas and a sidebar for the subsites - it seems to work well for them, so perhaps this might work for us too. What do people think? Regards, Martijn ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: [ZWeb] volunteers wanted! zope foundation website as guinea pig
Mark Pratt wrote: [snip] Doesn't matter what system is used but we certainly have less than before -- unless anybody considers a zope.org page with 8 pdf downloads progress. I agree we have less than before, sorry. Then again, before we had two foundation websites with diverging information, and now we have one, so that's progress. :) Regards, Martijn ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
[ZWeb] Re: website design discussion
Tom Von Lahndorff wrote: Looks like the first design is the preferred one. Okay, let's stick with design 1 then, it appears we got a consensus about this from looking at the thread. Maybe I just liked the second because it was the most recent. You're points below are all good. I'll try to work them all into a couple of new versions and set up some sub pages as well. As far as the content in the main area I haven't really though too much about, just the general page layout really, so I'm open to any suggestions. Ill tweak the nav as well. I have to use this IE hack to get it working so I may drop fly outs all together just to be able to avoid the hack. If we go with main nav items on top and sub navs on the left we wouldnt really need the flyouts anyway. If we can get rid of the drop-down menus to try a sidebar navigation and we can avoid a hack that way as well, then that sounds good. :) Regards, Martijn ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
[ZWeb] the zope foundation contents discussion
Hi there, We seem to be making good process on layout and technology. Now as to contents. What should the Zope Foundation website contain? Right now we have a whole bunch of PDFs, some describe rules for the foundation (bylaws, intellectual property policy), some of these are signable agreements and such for members. What we need is a text introducing the foundation and its goals. We should also provide a text describing the composition of the board and the current active committees (and who is on them). We also need to describe the present membership. We all need to fit this into a few sections. My thinking leads to the following pages: * about the foundation * introduction text * bylaws, policies * news * membership * board composition * committees (with mailing lists) * membership * join the Zope foundation! Eventually we'll also have to add pages about the Zope Management Organisation, though perhaps this simply delegates to some pages maintained by the zope developers. Overall goals of this site: * say what the Zope foundation is to anyone who wants to know * give the impression that Zope's future is well in hand with the Foundation. This is important for people promoting Zope the platform; strangers will be pointed to this website and we want to give a good first impression. * tell people want to do if they want to get involved. How to become a member, what mailing lists we're active on, etc. * allow people to see what the current status is of the foundation. * allow people to dig up the legal details about the foundation. This is just a rough sketch; there are many ways to organise this, and I'm likely missing bits. What do you think should be on the foundation pages, and how to organize things? Regards, Martijn ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
[ZWeb] low-hanging fruit: planetzope.org to planet.zope.org?
Hi there, This would seem to be low-hanging fruit, as it already works. Right now we have planetzope.org. It'd be nice if we could put this under planet.zope.org. We seem to have two alternatives: make planet.zope.org point directly to planetzope.org by doing something DNSy, or alternatively setting up the code that runs planet.zope.org on zope.org. Michael, what kind of code is running behind planetzope.org? Where is it hosted? What would have your preference? Regards, Martijn ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
[ZWeb] volunteers wanted! zope foundation website as guinea pig
Hi there, It's nearing september, and I'd like to start some work on zope.org, in particular www.zope.org/foundation. I'm looking for volunteers to help. As you all probably know, we have a Zope Foundation, of which I'm a board member (representative for the committer members). Aroldo Souza-Leite is also on the board as chairman. Aroldo and I are the board members responsible for the zope.org website committee. The task of the zope.org committee is to improve the zope.org web presence. Aroldo and I won't be doing the work or decision making alone, but since we have the backing of the foundation, we can make decisions stick. Volunteers are welcome to join this committee! One of the first tasks at hand is to improve the presence of the Zope Foundation on the web. We currently have a section here: http://www.zope.org/foundation This website doesn't look very pretty at all. My proposal is to reorganize it, have some introductory text, put in links to relevant information resources, such as mailing lists (including this one), and to stick a nice layout around it. This project will serve two purposes: * to create a nice website for the foundation. * serve as an example and test case for the wider zope.org renewal project. So, please help us out. Layout -- I propose we use Tom Von Lahndorff's design for the foundation website. For the purposes of the foundation site we should strip it down: * no login necessary * no search (unless we integrate google-based search, perhaps) * possibly no drop-down menus at the top. We could simply have links there, or possibly a standard left-hand side navigation. This design is the top page; we need to see a sub-page design as well. Tom, are you still there? This time we're going to use what you made quickly, if you're willing! Structure and text -- Aroldo and I (Aroldo, I'm volunteering you :) are willing to work on a bunch of restructured text documents that introduce the zope foundation and set up the site structure. Technology -- I've said this before, and I'll just repeat it again: let's try to avoid technology discussions as much as we can. Most of us, including myself, are techies, so it's attractive to do this, but we just want to put a website up. This doesn't require any new technology, nor does it require a heavy-duty CMS. To break my own rule on no technology discussions right way: I propose letting www.zope.org/foundation point to a Apache directory, where we maintain HTML files. We will then generate such HTML files from restructured text we maintain in the zope SVN repository, using a simple script that drives docutils. If you want examples of websites that are managed this way and I have personal experience with, check out the following places on codespeak: http://codespeak.net/z3/ http://codespeak.net/lxml/ Since we're not aiming for a big site, this should be sufficient technology. For the larger zope.org, we may need something else, or we may not. Let's treat the foundation website as a trial case here too, and see how we like it. There's one alternative to this approach that will also work on the short term: a volunteer that's willing to work with zope.org and integrate the layout and text and structure we want into existing zope.org infrastructure. If someone volunteers to work on this, I'd be happy to do it that way as well. Does anyone volunteer? Any other technological approaches require more setup and I'd like to defer them for the time being. We can take them up when we tackle zope.org proper. I hope we can all have this together in a couple of weeks, so let's start working! Regards, Martijn ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: [ZWeb] Version 3
Tom Von Lahndorff wrote: http://www.modscape.com/zope/v3 Updated. Pretty much ready to roll. Please send along any comments. Wow, great work! Looks nice. I agree with Brad Allen's comments about Zope needing to project a bit of seriousness, and this is serious with still enough color. I'm a text-oriented guy so I'm really am waiting for the catchy text in the middle. I hope we can get this integrated for another mockup, also concerning subpages. Regards, Martijn ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: [ZWeb] Re: zope web status report 2006-02-06
baiju m wrote: * we need start collecting Zope 3 documentation we can put online. We need to mine what's there online right now, approach the creators with a proposal for a new home (we could even have a mockup of it all in the grand new design, see next point), and process the documents so we can include it. I hereby submitt my artilce. The license can be changed to ZPL or public domain status or whatever you use. http://zissue.berlios.de/z3/Zope3In30Minutes.html ReST source: http://svn.berlios.de/viewcvs/zissue/trunk/z3in30m Awesome! Can we check this into the zopeweb repository? http://codespeak.net/svn/z3/zopeweb/trunk/ If you want access to the svn, please contact Philipp von Weitershausen on that and tell him I sent you. :) Regards, Martijn ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: [ZWeb] new zope.org: zope newsletter
Hey, Sorry it took a bit to reply to this. Andrew Sawyers wrote: I asked this in IRC, but don't think I got an answer: Should I work on setting up something on one of the current zope.org app servers or do we have another place where this work will be done. I started something awhile back when Sidnei and I got into a conversation about zope.org salvation and didn't comeplete it. I can work with Mark at Zope Corp for us to hace something to show... I don't care about writing text as the rest of the group. If there's no plan, I'll see if Mark can help with enabling us to get some progress to that end. While we definitely need to change zope.org eventually and it's great you have the interest and the access to set stuff up on it, I think we should focus first on structure, text and presentation, then worry about the technology. For now, I'd like to stick with a bunch of restructured text files that, if we want to see it in some presentation, can convert with some scripts. Once we actually know what we want to host on zope.org in more detail, we can start wondering about what the technical infrastructure should be. Regards, Martijn ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: [ZWeb] new zope.org: zope newsletter
Michael Haubenwallner wrote: Martijn Faassen wrote: bakhtiar a hamid wrote: On Thursday 19 January 2006 14:40, Carlos de la Guardia wrote: We could also compile automatically some news items, Releases and announcements and call them the newsletter. i would think planetzope.org fits this description nicely planetzope.org is indeed a good start. Luckily Michael Haubenwallner of planetzope is a datamunger, and is working on involving other sources of news, such as zope related del.icio.us links. Michael, what do you think? To answer this (and what Tonico mentioned in his posting) i'm using del.icio.us as a cheap way for collecting data and organizing content from which a zope.org newsletter can be written. I think watchword for anything we do for zope.org is that we can't accomplish it unless it requires the minimum of work to get done. Perhaps what we'll end up with is not a newsletter, but if it's useful, we should put it on zope.org. Writing text is cheap. Mining existing links is cheap. Reusing existing data and text is cheap. Regards, Martijn ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
