Re: [EVDL] EVLN: i3 EV self-parks> driver climbs out of window to prove (video)

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

Folks, this thread is interesting, but it's wandered pretty far off topic. 

Can we let it slide now, please?

Thanks,

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: motorcycle drivetrain?

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Aug 6, 2014, at 5:27 PM, "Roland"  wrote:

> They did this for me and was subjected for my installation, is to have a 
> opposing belt in the opposite direction of each other or a continuous belt 
> place on 3 or 4 pulleys 60 to 90 degrees of each other to reduce the bearing 
> load of the drive unit.

...so...for example, from one side to the other, there'd be a pulley that just 
spins, one electric motor, the drive shaft, the other electric motor, and 
another pulley that just spins? And the bearings on the outer pulleys would 
either be rated for the load and / or would be considered consumable?

Makes sense. But I'll see if I can't find a decent ME (perhaps at Gates 
Made-to-Order Metals) to design it

Thanks,

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: motorcycle drivetrain?

[Roland via EV]

If you go to a dealer that handles power transmission items, such as belts, cog 
belts, High Tension belts, cog belts pulleys, chain drives, taper locks, and 
etc.  They can bring up a computer drawing of the correct belt type and  belt 
contact angles rated for the rpm torque and HP.  

They did this for me and was subjected for my installation, is to have a 
opposing belt in the opposite direction of each other or a continuous belt 
place on 3 or 4 pulleys 60 to 90 degrees of each other to reduce the bearing 
load of the drive unit.  Also there is a certain amount of belt contact to the 
pulley surfaces, to maintain the torque and horsepower needed. 

I install this system in 1980 and still running it today even with the same 
industrial power belts.

Roland  
  - Original Message - 
  From: Ben Goren via EV<mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org> 
  To: Roger Stockton<mailto:rstock...@delta-q.com> ; Electric Vehicle 
Discussion List<mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org> 
  Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 4:23 PM
  Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: motorcycle drivetrain?


  On Aug 6, 2014, at 1:25 PM, Roger Stockton via EV 
mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org>> wrote:

  > I believe you are mistaken.  I think what you need to consider is termed 
"overhung load"; this Gates document gives a good overview:

  Roger, thanks for that excellent resource. Obviously, I'm not an ME...but I'm 
sure getting a crash course in a tiny subset of the field.

  The document suggests that reducing belt width, increasing pulley diameter 
(even while keeping gear ratios constant between the two pulleys), and moving 
the belt closer to the bearing all reduce overhung load. Since I'm starting 
from scratch with this, I should have no trouble optimizing all three if need 
be. In particular, it looks like it shouldn't be any trouble getting the 
pulleys practically right on top of the bearing. The document also ends with a 
sidebar saying they've got belts with the same geometries as chains that also 
have the same load ratings with better life and maintenance.

  I'm thinking it'd be a good idea to see if I can't find somebody at Gates to 
help me run some numbers and suggest part specifications. I'd almost 
undoubtedly use their belts (I just replaced the disintegrating fan belt on the 
Mustang with a Gates belt). I'm not sure that they also make pulleys...but, if 
they do, that'd be the obvious choice rather than some other manufacturer or a 
machine shop.

  b&
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Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: motorcycle drivetrain?

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Aug 6, 2014, at 3:23 PM, Ben Goren via EV  wrote:

> I'm thinking it'd be a good idea to see if I can't find somebody at Gates to 
> help me run some numbers and suggest part specifications. I'd almost 
> undoubtedly use their belts (I just replaced the disintegrating fan belt on 
> the Mustang with a Gates belt). I'm not sure that they also make 
> pulleys...but, if they do, that'd be the obvious choice rather than some 
> other manufacturer or a machine shop.

A bit more investigation revealed this:

http://www.gates.com/products/industrial/industrial-belts/made-to-order-metals

Assuming it's not insanely expensive, that's almost certainly the right 
answer...for my current-leading geometry idea of mounting the motors to the 
side and using them to spin the driveshaft. I'll give 'em a call tomorrow

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: motorcycle drivetrain?

[Michael Ross via EV]

Chains are very efficient.  If you enclose them and they have lubrication,
they last a very long time.  They are also relatively inexpensive, and lend
themselves easily to changing ratios.  I suppose their main bad point is
noise, and the need for an adjusting idler to keep noise low.  But
adjusting idlers are also not terribly expensive and quite reliable.

I was very happy when Camry's changed from toothed timing belts to chains.
I loved the little mid-'80s Camry's, but they had to have a new belt every
30K miles like clockwork.  Good thing they did not crash their valves into
pistons, because they would have had  much trouble had they been
interference engines,


On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 6:23 PM, Ben Goren via EV  wrote:

> On Aug 6, 2014, at 1:25 PM, Roger Stockton via EV 
> wrote:
>
> > I believe you are mistaken.  I think what you need to consider is termed
> "overhung load"; this Gates document gives a good overview:
>
> Roger, thanks for that excellent resource. Obviously, I'm not an ME...but
> I'm sure getting a crash course in a tiny subset of the field.
>
> The document suggests that reducing belt width, increasing pulley diameter
> (even while keeping gear ratios constant between the two pulleys), and
> moving the belt closer to the bearing all reduce overhung load. Since I'm
> starting from scratch with this, I should have no trouble optimizing all
> three if need be. In particular, it looks like it shouldn't be any trouble
> getting the pulleys practically right on top of the bearing. The document
> also ends with a sidebar saying they've got belts with the same geometries
> as chains that also have the same load ratings with better life and
> maintenance.
>
> I'm thinking it'd be a good idea to see if I can't find somebody at Gates
> to help me run some numbers and suggest part specifications. I'd almost
> undoubtedly use their belts (I just replaced the disintegrating fan belt on
> the Mustang with a Gates belt). I'm not sure that they also make
> pulleys...but, if they do, that'd be the obvious choice rather than some
> other manufacturer or a machine shop.
>
> b&
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>


-- 
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: i3 EV self-parks> driver climbs out of window to prove (video)

[Ben Goren via EV]

nomous autos are unnecessary and
>>> motivation for their use is only from profit motive if the manufacturers.
>>> A
>>> "Chauffeur" to drive your car or a Taxi and Driver or Limo and driver are
>>> less expensive than paying $50,000 for one of the autonomous vehicles for
>>> personal use. and replacing a Truck Driver is an economic loss for the
>>> freight business. Drivers are more versatile and have a proven safety
>>> record. A human being can make a decision based upon experience and
>>> training and intuition which a computer cannot match. If you want to move
>>> freight less expensively make an investment in rail-road infrastructure.
>>> 
>>> Dennis Lee Miles
>>> 
>>> (*evprofes...@evprofessor.com )*
>>> 
>>> * Founder: **EV Tech. Institute Inc.*
>>> 
>>> *Phone #* *(863) 944-9913 (12 noon to 12 midnight Eastern US Time)*
>>> 
>>> *Educating yourself, does not mean you were **stupid; it means, you are
>>> intelligent enough, **to know, that there is plenty left to learn!*
>>> 
>>> * You Tube Video link: http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss
>>> <http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss> *
>>> 
>>> * NEW You Tube Video link: *http://youtu. be/Pz9-TZtySh8
>>> <http://youtu.%20be/Pz9-TZtySh8>
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 4:06 PM, Ben Goren via EV 
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>  On Aug 6, 2014, at 12:26 PM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>>>>> expecting the car to plug itself into a wall outlet / cable is
>>>> asking
>>>> a
>>>>>>>> bit much.
>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I can easily imagine a robot arm that can reach out, find and
>>>> connect
>>>> to some
>>>>>>> contacts mounted somehow on the front license plate area.
>>>>> 
>>>>>> That's a lot of moving parts to break, especially considering how
>>>> many
>>>> people
>>>>>> have trouble not running over things in the garage already. Plus the
>>>> hazard
>>>>>> of people or pets or other things getting caught up in the mechanism.
>>>>> 
>>>>> This strikes me as a non-problem that keeps getting elevated into
>>>> something much bigger and more complicated than it needs to be.
>>>> 
>>>> I think you're right. What's exciting to me is that two technological
>>>> advances are starting to mature at the same time, and that the two of
>>>> the
>>>> together will potentially be much more significant than either would be
>>>> separately.
>>>> 
>>>> ICE and EV cars are both equally well suited to autonomous driving, but
>>>> EV
>>>> cars are _much_ better suited to autonomous recharging than ICE cars
>>>> are to
>>>> autonomous refueling.
>>>> 
>>>> At-home EV recharging is already more than plenty good enough for all
>>>> but
>>>> the idle super-rich. At-home charging isn't merely a solved problem; it
>>>> never really was a problem in the first place.
>>>> 
>>>> On-the-go EV recharging is only a problem when the miles driven in a day
>>>> are greater than the miles the car gets on an overnight charge. Save for
>>>> road trips, the Tesla is already there and others will soon follow as
>>>> battery prices continue to drop. And plugin hybrids such as the Volt
>>>> and my
>>>> Mustang project also have that problem "well enough" solved; if most
>>>> people
>>>> only filled up their gas tanks a few times a year rather than a few
>>>> times a
>>>> month, many (but not all) of our fossil fuel problems would magically go
>>>> away.
>>>> 
>>>> What EVs do at this time when many new cars can already drive themselves
>>>> in limited ways is open up the possibility for fleets of fully
>>>> autonomous
>>>> nearly maintenance-free magic carpets. _That's_ the exciting bit. How
>>>> they
>>>> wind up charging themselves isn't something anybody other than the mass
>>>> market manufacturers really need to worry about.
>>>> 
>>>> b&
>>>> -- next part --
>>>> A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
>>>> Name: signature.asc
>>>

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: i3 EV self-parks> driver climbs out of window to prove (video)

[Peri Hartman via EV]

 reach out, find and 
connect

 to some
 >>> contacts mounted somehow on the front license plate area.
 >
 >> That's a lot of moving parts to break, especially considering 
how many

 people
 >> have trouble not running over things in the garage already. Plus 
the

 hazard
 >> of people or pets or other things getting caught up in the 
mechanism.

 >
 > This strikes me as a non-problem that keeps getting elevated into
 something much bigger and more complicated than it needs to be.

 I think you're right. What's exciting to me is that two 
technological
 advances are starting to mature at the same time, and that the two 
of the
 together will potentially be much more significant than either 
would be

 separately.

 ICE and EV cars are both equally well suited to autonomous driving, 
but EV
 cars are _much_ better suited to autonomous recharging than ICE 
cars are to

 autonomous refueling.

 At-home EV recharging is already more than plenty good enough for 
all but
 the idle super-rich. At-home charging isn't merely a solved 
problem; it

 never really was a problem in the first place.

 On-the-go EV recharging is only a problem when the miles driven in 
a day
 are greater than the miles the car gets on an overnight charge. 
Save for
 road trips, the Tesla is already there and others will soon follow 
as
 battery prices continue to drop. And plugin hybrids such as the 
Volt and my
 Mustang project also have that problem "well enough" solved; if 
most people
 only filled up their gas tanks a few times a year rather than a few 
times a
 month, many (but not all) of our fossil fuel problems would 
magically go

 away.

 What EVs do at this time when many new cars can already drive 
themselves
 in limited ways is open up the possibility for fleets of fully 
autonomous
 nearly maintenance-free magic carpets. _That's_ the exciting bit. 
How they
 wind up charging themselves isn't something anybody other than the 
mass

 market manufacturers really need to worry about.

 b&
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: i3 EV self-parks> driver climbs out of window to prove (video)

[Peter C. Thompson via EV]

so have that problem "well enough" solved; if 
most people
 only filled up their gas tanks a few times a year rather than a few 
times a
 month, many (but not all) of our fossil fuel problems would 
magically go

 away.

 What EVs do at this time when many new cars can already drive 
themselves
 in limited ways is open up the possibility for fleets of fully 
autonomous
 nearly maintenance-free magic carpets. _That's_ the exciting bit. 
How they
 wind up charging themselves isn't something anybody other than the 
mass

 market manufacturers really need to worry about.

 b&
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Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: motorcycle drivetrain?

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Aug 6, 2014, at 1:25 PM, Roger Stockton via EV  wrote:

> I believe you are mistaken.  I think what you need to consider is termed 
> "overhung load"; this Gates document gives a good overview:

Roger, thanks for that excellent resource. Obviously, I'm not an ME...but I'm 
sure getting a crash course in a tiny subset of the field.

The document suggests that reducing belt width, increasing pulley diameter 
(even while keeping gear ratios constant between the two pulleys), and moving 
the belt closer to the bearing all reduce overhung load. Since I'm starting 
from scratch with this, I should have no trouble optimizing all three if need 
be. In particular, it looks like it shouldn't be any trouble getting the 
pulleys practically right on top of the bearing. The document also ends with a 
sidebar saying they've got belts with the same geometries as chains that also 
have the same load ratings with better life and maintenance.

I'm thinking it'd be a good idea to see if I can't find somebody at Gates to 
help me run some numbers and suggest part specifications. I'd almost 
undoubtedly use their belts (I just replaced the disintegrating fan belt on the 
Mustang with a Gates belt). I'm not sure that they also make pulleys...but, if 
they do, that'd be the obvious choice rather than some other manufacturer or a 
machine shop.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: i3 EV self-parks> driver climbs out of window to prove (video)

[Dennis Miles via EV]

ready. Plus the
>>>  hazard
>>>  >> of people or pets or other things getting caught up in the mechanism.
>>>  >
>>>  > This strikes me as a non-problem that keeps getting elevated into
>>>  something much bigger and more complicated than it needs to be.
>>>
>>>  I think you're right. What's exciting to me is that two technological
>>>  advances are starting to mature at the same time, and that the two of
>>> the
>>>  together will potentially be much more significant than either would be
>>>  separately.
>>>
>>>  ICE and EV cars are both equally well suited to autonomous driving, but
>>> EV
>>>  cars are _much_ better suited to autonomous recharging than ICE cars
>>> are to
>>>  autonomous refueling.
>>>
>>>  At-home EV recharging is already more than plenty good enough for all
>>> but
>>>  the idle super-rich. At-home charging isn't merely a solved problem; it
>>>  never really was a problem in the first place.
>>>
>>>  On-the-go EV recharging is only a problem when the miles driven in a day
>>>  are greater than the miles the car gets on an overnight charge. Save for
>>>  road trips, the Tesla is already there and others will soon follow as
>>>  battery prices continue to drop. And plugin hybrids such as the Volt
>>> and my
>>>  Mustang project also have that problem "well enough" solved; if most
>>> people
>>>  only filled up their gas tanks a few times a year rather than a few
>>> times a
>>>  month, many (but not all) of our fossil fuel problems would magically go
>>>  away.
>>>
>>>  What EVs do at this time when many new cars can already drive themselves
>>>  in limited ways is open up the possibility for fleets of fully
>>> autonomous
>>>  nearly maintenance-free magic carpets. _That's_ the exciting bit. How
>>> they
>>>  wind up charging themselves isn't something anybody other than the mass
>>>  market manufacturers really need to worry about.
>>>
>>>  b&
>>>  -- next part --
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>>>  Name: signature.asc
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>>> 20140806/f9f8086a/attachment.pgp
>>>  >
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: i3 EV self-parks> driver climbs out of window to prove (video)

[Peri Hartman via EV]

While I agree that there are some strong political and job transition 
issues that will arrive with autonomous cars, I completely disagree that 
they will be unnecessary.


Possible benefits:
- take transit in the morning, stay late, call for your car at 10pm to 
pick you up;

- intoxicated; let the car drive
- share a ride to a event, need to leave early, call car to pick up up.

And so on...

In particular, I think they could be a boon for public transit.  So many 
people take a car during the morning rush hour because they need to do 
something after work.  Imagine instead that they take public transit in 
the morning, which results in less vehicles on the road and, in the 
evening when the traffic has died down, their car can come and get them. 
 Also saves on parking space construction and cost to use.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Dennis Miles via EV" 
To: "Ben Goren" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List" 

Sent: 06-Aug-14 2:16:00 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: i3 EV self-parks> driver climbs out of window 
to prove (video)



Autonomous cars and wireless charging are two job destroyers at an
excessive cost. Both New Jersey and Oregon have thousands of labor jobs 
at
minimum wage for fuel (Gasoline) pump operators, (NO "self service" 
pumps!

) I have said before self driving autonomous autos are unnecessary and
motivation for their use is only from profit motive if the 
manufacturers. A
"Chauffeur" to drive your car or a Taxi and Driver or Limo and driver 
are
less expensive than paying $50,000 for one of the autonomous vehicles 
for

personal use. and replacing a Truck Driver is an economic loss for the
freight business. Drivers are more versatile and have a proven safety
record. A human being can make a decision based upon experience and
training and intuition which a computer cannot match. If you want to 
move
freight less expensively make an investment in rail-road 
infrastructure.


Dennis Lee Miles

(*evprofes...@evprofessor.com )*

* Founder: **EV Tech. Institute Inc.*

*Phone #* *(863) 944-9913 (12 noon to 12 midnight Eastern US Time)*

*Educating yourself, does not mean you were **stupid; it means, you are
intelligent enough, **to know, that there is plenty left to learn!*

* You Tube Video link: http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss
<http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss> *

* NEW You Tube Video link: *http://youtu. be/Pz9-TZtySh8
<http://youtu.%20be/Pz9-TZtySh8>


On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 4:06 PM, Ben Goren via EV  
wrote:


 On Aug 6, 2014, at 12:26 PM, Lee Hart via EV  
wrote:


 >>>> expecting the car to plug itself into a wall outlet / cable is 
asking

 a
 >>>> bit much.
 >
 >>> I can easily imagine a robot arm that can reach out, find and 
connect

 to some
 >>> contacts mounted somehow on the front license plate area.
 >
 >> That's a lot of moving parts to break, especially considering how 
many

 people
 >> have trouble not running over things in the garage already. Plus 
the

 hazard
 >> of people or pets or other things getting caught up in the 
mechanism.

 >
 > This strikes me as a non-problem that keeps getting elevated into
 something much bigger and more complicated than it needs to be.

 I think you're right. What's exciting to me is that two technological
 advances are starting to mature at the same time, and that the two of 
the
 together will potentially be much more significant than either would 
be

 separately.

 ICE and EV cars are both equally well suited to autonomous driving, 
but EV
 cars are _much_ better suited to autonomous recharging than ICE cars 
are to

 autonomous refueling.

 At-home EV recharging is already more than plenty good enough for all 
but
 the idle super-rich. At-home charging isn't merely a solved problem; 
it

 never really was a problem in the first place.

 On-the-go EV recharging is only a problem when the miles driven in a 
day
 are greater than the miles the car gets on an overnight charge. Save 
for

 road trips, the Tesla is already there and others will soon follow as
 battery prices continue to drop. And plugin hybrids such as the Volt 
and my
 Mustang project also have that problem "well enough" solved; if most 
people
 only filled up their gas tanks a few times a year rather than a few 
times a
 month, many (but not all) of our fossil fuel problems would magically 
go

 away.

 What EVs do at this time when many new cars can already drive 
themselves
 in limited ways is open up the possibility for fleets of fully 
autonomous
 nearly maintenance-free magic carpets. _That's_ the exciting bit. How 
they
 wind up charging themselves isn't something anybody other than the 
mass

 market manufacturers really need to worry about.

 b&
 -- next part --
 A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
 Name: signature.asc
 Type: application

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: i3 EV self-parks> driver climbs out of window to prove (video)

[Dennis Miles via EV]

Autonomous cars and wireless charging are two job destroyers at an
excessive cost. Both New Jersey and Oregon have thousands of labor jobs at
minimum wage for fuel (Gasoline) pump operators, (NO "self service" pumps!
) I have said before self driving autonomous autos are unnecessary and
motivation for their use is only from profit motive if the manufacturers. A
"Chauffeur" to drive your car or a Taxi and Driver or Limo and driver are
less expensive than paying $50,000 for one of the autonomous vehicles for
personal use. and replacing a Truck Driver  is an economic loss for the
freight business. Drivers are more versatile and have a proven safety
record.  A human being can make a decision based upon experience and
training and intuition which a computer cannot match. If you want to move
freight less expensively make an investment in rail-road infrastructure.

Dennis Lee Miles

(*evprofes...@evprofessor.com )*

* Founder:**EV Tech. Institute Inc.*

*Phone #* *(863) 944-9913 (12 noon to 12 midnight Eastern US Time)*

*Educating yourself, does not mean you were **stupid; it means, you are
intelligent enough,  **to know, that there is plenty left to learn!*

*  You Tube Video link:  http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss
<http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss> *

*NEW You Tube Video link: *http://youtu. be/Pz9-TZtySh8
<http://youtu.%20be/Pz9-TZtySh8>


On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 4:06 PM, Ben Goren via EV  wrote:

> On Aug 6, 2014, at 12:26 PM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:
>
> >>>> expecting the car to plug itself into a wall outlet / cable is asking
> a
> >>>> bit much.
> >
> >>> I can easily imagine a robot arm that can reach out, find and connect
> to some
> >>> contacts mounted somehow on the front license plate area.
> >
> >> That's a lot of moving parts to break, especially considering how many
> people
> >> have trouble not running over things in the garage already. Plus the
> hazard
> >> of people or pets or other things getting caught up in the mechanism.
> >
> > This strikes me as a non-problem that keeps getting elevated into
> something much bigger and more complicated than it needs to be.
>
> I think you're right. What's exciting to me is that two technological
> advances are starting to mature at the same time, and that the two of the
> together will potentially be much more significant than either would be
> separately.
>
> ICE and EV cars are both equally well suited to autonomous driving, but EV
> cars are _much_ better suited to autonomous recharging than ICE cars are to
> autonomous refueling.
>
> At-home EV recharging is already more than plenty good enough for all but
> the idle super-rich. At-home charging isn't merely a solved problem; it
> never really was a problem in the first place.
>
> On-the-go EV recharging is only a problem when the miles driven in a day
> are greater than the miles the car gets on an overnight charge. Save for
> road trips, the Tesla is already there and others will soon follow as
> battery prices continue to drop. And plugin hybrids such as the Volt and my
> Mustang project also have that problem "well enough" solved; if most people
> only filled up their gas tanks a few times a year rather than a few times a
> month, many (but not all) of our fossil fuel problems would magically go
> away.
>
> What EVs do at this time when many new cars can already drive themselves
> in limited ways is open up the possibility for fleets of fully autonomous
> nearly maintenance-free magic carpets. _That's_ the exciting bit. How they
> wind up charging themselves isn't something anybody other than the mass
> market manufacturers really need to worry about.
>
> b&
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[EVDL] Autonomous/irobot/arm charging: EVLN: i3 EV self-parks

[brucedp5 via EV]

[ref
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-i3-EV-self-parks-driver-climbs-out-of-window-to-prove-video-tp4670841.html
]


% Whether you want it or not, robotic helpers are here today, and being
implemented in many ways for tomorrow's applications %


http://www.hizook.com/blog/2010/01/03/self-feeding-robots-robots-plug-themselves-wall-outlets
Self-Feeding Robots: Robots that Plug Themselves Into Wall Outlets
January 3, 2010 by Travis Deyle

http://bdm.cc/pubs/plugin.pdf
Robot, Feed Thyself: Plugging In to Unmodified Electrical Outlets by Sensing
Emitted AC Electric Fields
Brian Mayton, Louis LeGrand, and Joshua R. Smith

[video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNWN42tksSk&list=PL7A7EgkgM3rnrnLkO6d6GLXS8ufUFJXnV&index=3
Robotic charger for electric vehicle - Part 3
Stefano Linari Apr 16, 2011 
(Italian> google.translate> English
Prototype of an automatic charging of electric cars in the parking lot. 
Powered by Linari Engineering LTD for Generplus S.p.A.)

Prototipo di un sistema automatico di ricarica di auto elettriche durante il
parcheggio.
Realizzato da Linari Engineering s.r.l. per Generplus S.p.A
]

http://www.cnet.com/products/irobot-self-charging-home-base-vacuum-cleaner-charger/
iRobot Self-Charging Home Base - vacuum cleaner charger
Part Number: 81003
$98.99


http://www.slashgear.com/teslas-elon-musk-seeking-engineers-for-autonomous-driving-project-18298415/
Tesla’s Elon Musk seeking engineers for autonomous driving project
Sep 18, 2013
...
http://news.investors.com/technology/080114-711430-tsla-is-not-showing-all-its-cards-elon-musk-says.htm
Video: Tesla Surprise Hinted, Maybe Self-Driving Car
Investor's Business Daily-by Patrick Seitz-Aug 1, 2014
Tesla is looking at semi-autonomous car technology, which could handle most
driving, particularly on highways. Musk previously has said that Tesla would
lead ...


http://www.ibtimes.com/elon-musk-warns-artificial-intelligence-greater-threat-nuclear-weapons-ai-here-stay-1649532
Elon Musk Warns Artificial Intelligence Is A Greater Threat Than ...
International Business Times-by Jeff Stone-Aug 5, 2014
The mobile robotic system Justin with its compliant controlled light weight
arms and its two four finger hands allows the long range autonomous
operation of the ...

http://hplusmagazine.com/2014/08/04/elon-musk-is-more-dangerous-than-ai/
Elon Musk is More Dangerous than AI
h+ Magazine-by Peter Rothman-Aug 4, 2014
Now usually I am a huge fan of Mr. Musk, his approach to innovation, and
 Elon Musk is more dangerous than AI because he is autonomous and free
to act in ...

http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/187467-elon-musk-warns-us-that-human-level-ai-is-more-dangerous-than-nukes
Elon Musk warns us that human-level AI is 'potentially more ...
ExtremeTech-by Mr Seb-Aug 4, 2014
Elon Musk, the mastermind behind SpaceX and Tesla, believes that artificial
 I don't think we need to be anywhere close to human level autonomous
AI. I think




For all EVLN posts use:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=search_page&node=413529&query=evln&sort=date


{brucedp.150m.com}




-
On Wed, Aug 6, 2014, at 11:20 AM, Ben Goren via EV wrote:
> On Aug 6, 2014, at 10:02 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV 
> wrote:
> 
> >> expecting the car to plug itself into a wall outlet / cable is asking a
> >> bit much.
> > 
> > Actually If I had the time (after I retire maybe) I can easily imagin a
> > robot arm on the garage wall that can reach out, find and connect to
> some
> > contacts mounted somehow on the front license plate area.
> 
> That's a lot of moving parts to break, especially considering how many
> people have trouble not running over things in the garage already. Plus
> the hazard of people or pets or other things getting caught up in the
> mechanism ...
>
> A pseudo-taxi that could drive itself to a charging station and then
> drive away when its battery is full would make lots of sense. The same
> pseudo-taxi that needed an human to stand around waiting for the
> pseudo-taxi to arrive to connect the charger, and then be there to
> disconnect the charger when the pseudo-taxi is charged...that's gonna be
> a non-starter.
-

-
On Wed, Aug 6, 2014, at 11:33 AM, John Lussmyer via EV wrote:
> On Wed Aug 06 11:20:13 PDT 2014 ev@lists.evdl.org said:
> >A pseudo-taxi that could drive itself to a charging station and then
> drive away when its battery is full would make lots of sense. The same
> pseudo-taxi that needed an human to stand around waiting for the
> pseudo-taxi to arrive to connect the charger, and then be there to
> disconnect the charger when the pseudo-taxi is charged...that's gonna be a
> non-starter.
> 
> Actually, I could see having one (or more if needed) people working at
> the Taxi Depot to do charger Plugin/Unplug - AND check the Taxi for
> things like damage, stuff left in the car, etc...
> One guy could probably handle dozens of taxis.
-




--
View this message in context: 
ht

Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: motorcycle drivetrain?

[Roger Stockton via EV]

Ben Goren wrote:

> > I suspect that it is not just the static load of the belt tension, but
> > the tension added to one side of the belt/chain when the motor is
> > delivering torque.
> 
> That was my initial thought, too...until late yesterday evening when I was
> doing a bunch of research on it. And, if I'm understanding it correctly,
> all that putting a load on the system does is move the direction of the
> force, but not its magnitude -- and for a reason that makes sense: when
> you pull on the one side, you increase tension on that side...but you also
> _decrease_ tension on the opposite side by the same amount. So, instead of
> the (say) ten pounds being applied towards the axle of the opposite
> pulley, the same ten pounds is now applied on a different angle.

I believe you are mistaken.  I think what you need to consider is termed 
"overhung load"; this Gates document gives a good overview:



Near the bottom of this document it mentions belt tension and notes that the 
static tension is really just to counter the centrifugal forces that come into 
play as the belt rotates rapidly and tend to throw it outwards and neutralise 
some of the installation tension that is intended to ensure the belt teeth 
remain in intimate contact with the sprocket.

Page 168 of this document describes the calculation of overhung load, which is 
based on the HP being transmitted, the RPM, and the diameter of the sprocket:



Unfortunately, there are a couple of factors in the calculation that are 
assumed to be provided by the manufacturer of the speed reducer you are using, 
so unless you can get these factors from HPEVs or the manufacturer of the 
AC-51, you'll need to do a bit of research to determine sensible ballpark 
values to use for your situation.

Cheers,

Roger.


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Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: motorcycle drivetrain?

[Dennis Miles via EV]

I am not familiar enough to name part numbers and brands, but my research
indicates that some transfer cases use internal chains and therefore solve
the lubrication, cleanliness, and bearing concerns, also some heavy duty
transfer cases use a gear train and not a chain drive. I am told the chain
units last about 150.000 miles then the chain needs replacement (That is
twice as long as an automatic transmission..) That is why I suggest going
to a 4X4 custom shop and talking with techs with practical experience. Not
your neighborhood "Shade Tree Mechanic."

Dennis Lee Miles

(*evprofes...@evprofessor.com )*

* Founder:**EV Tech. Institute Inc.*

*Phone #* *(863) 944-9913 (12 noon to 12 midnight Eastern US Time)*

*Educating yourself, does not mean you were **stupid; it means, you are
intelligent enough,  **to know, that there is plenty left to learn!*

*  You Tube Video link:  http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss
<http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss> *

*NEW You Tube Video link: *http://youtu. be/Pz9-TZtySh8
<http://youtu.%20be/Pz9-TZtySh8>


On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 11:58 AM, Roger Stockton via EV 
wrote:

> Dennis Miles wrote:
>
> > {Ben, autos stopped using chain or belt
> > drives 80 years ago, I like using the 4WD transfer case with the 2::1 low
> > range for in town and 1::1 on highway coupled with the stock 3.0::1 in
> the
> > rear axle& differential.
>
> I realise it isn't quite what you meant, and I don't profess to profess to
> be an expert on modern transfer cases, but those I am familiar with (which
> are less than 80yrs old ;^), have contained a chain drive running in an oil
> bath.  While a transfer case would be an elegant way to reduce the custom
> fabrication required, it won't necessarily avoid the use of a chain drive.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: i3 EV self-parks> driver climbs out of window to prove (video)

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Aug 6, 2014, at 12:26 PM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:

>>>> expecting the car to plug itself into a wall outlet / cable is asking a
>>>> bit much.
> 
>>> I can easily imagine a robot arm that can reach out, find and connect to 
>>> some
>>> contacts mounted somehow on the front license plate area.
> 
>> That's a lot of moving parts to break, especially considering how many people
>> have trouble not running over things in the garage already. Plus the hazard
>> of people or pets or other things getting caught up in the mechanism.
> 
> This strikes me as a non-problem that keeps getting elevated into something 
> much bigger and more complicated than it needs to be.

I think you're right. What's exciting to me is that two technological advances 
are starting to mature at the same time, and that the two of the together will 
potentially be much more significant than either would be separately.

ICE and EV cars are both equally well suited to autonomous driving, but EV cars 
are _much_ better suited to autonomous recharging than ICE cars are to 
autonomous refueling.

At-home EV recharging is already more than plenty good enough for all but the 
idle super-rich. At-home charging isn't merely a solved problem; it never 
really was a problem in the first place.

On-the-go EV recharging is only a problem when the miles driven in a day are 
greater than the miles the car gets on an overnight charge. Save for road 
trips, the Tesla is already there and others will soon follow as battery prices 
continue to drop. And plugin hybrids such as the Volt and my Mustang project 
also have that problem "well enough" solved; if most people only filled up 
their gas tanks a few times a year rather than a few times a month, many (but 
not all) of our fossil fuel problems would magically go away.

What EVs do at this time when many new cars can already drive themselves in 
limited ways is open up the possibility for fleets of fully autonomous nearly 
maintenance-free magic carpets. _That's_ the exciting bit. How they wind up 
charging themselves isn't something anybody other than the mass market 
manufacturers really need to worry about.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: i3 EV self-parks> driver climbs out of window to prove (video)

[Lee Hart via EV]

expecting the car to plug itself into a wall outlet / cable is asking a
bit much.



I can easily imagine a robot arm that can reach out, find and connect to some
contacts mounted somehow on the front license plate area.



That's a lot of moving parts to break, especially considering how many people
have trouble not running over things in the garage already. Plus the hazard
of people or pets or other things getting caught up in the mechanism.


This strikes me as a non-problem that keeps getting elevated into 
something much bigger and more complicated than it needs to be. They try 
to make it out as dangerous, and so difficult that no one can do it. 
Naturally, they have a complicated and expensive "cure" for this problem...


People have been putting gas into their own cars and other ICE-powered 
toys for over a century. It is a much trickier and more dangerous 
operation than plugging something in to recharge it. So many people have 
been injured by gasoline that we've become used to it. It's a dog bites 
man story; ho hum, nothing new, let's move on.


People have been plugging EVs and other battery-powered toys in for just 
as long. But have you ever heard of anyone injured doing it? I'm sure 
the fearmongers would like to scare up a few cases to hype (man bites 
dog). But in reality, it's extremely rare; a non-problem.


As far as making plugging things in simple... we've had easy methods for 
100 years. Cordless phone, drills, ipods etc. all have stands that you 
just drop it into to charge. Trains, trolleys, and buses have had 
overhead wires to draw power from. Bumper cars in amusement parts even 
use this method. There are already millions of industrial vehicles that 
plug themselves in to recharge.


It doesn't matter if it's wireless or has a pair of contacts; it's still 
trivially easy. We've had both conductive and inductive chargers for 50+ 
years.


I simply do not accept that we need to perpetuate the "gas pump" model 
for charging EVs. This is not a problem that calls for some complicated 
expensive solution.


--
We cannot waste time. We can only waste ourselves.
-- George Matthew Adams
--
Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: i3 EV self-parks> driver climbs out of window toprove (video)

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Similar to what some parking lot attendants do all day in San Francisco:
play a game of sliding puzzle with 1 open slot...

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info
Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626


-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Ben Goren via
EV
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 11:25 AM
To: Peri Hartman; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: i3 EV self-parks> driver climbs out of window
toprove (video)

On Aug 6, 2014, at 10:06 AM, Peri Hartman via EV 
wrote:

> The other problem with cordless charging - whether robot arm or
induction - is that it requires a certain orientation of the vehicle. In
my case, I back into my driveway because it's too difficult to see when
backing out into traffic.  So I either would need a charge connection on
the back of the car or would need one that I can drive over, somehow.
Or one on each side...

I don't see automated charging being anything other than a luxury item
for personal EVs until they get dirt cheap. But I *do* see them being
indispensable for autonomous vehicle applications.

They'd even make sense for certain fleet applications if the cars only
park themselves and do no other autonomous driving. You could design a
parking lot / charging station with cars packed in with only an inch of
clearance on all four sides from neighboring cars. The car pulls itself
out, the driver gets in and drives away; at the end of the day, the
driver gets out of the car and walks away as the car parks itself into a
space impossible for the doors to even open.

That opens up a *lot* of square footage in what could potentially be an
area with expensive real estate rates.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: i3 EV self-parks> driver climbs out of window to prove (video)

[John Lussmyer via EV]

On Wed Aug 06 11:20:13 PDT 2014 ev@lists.evdl.org said:
>A pseudo-taxi that could drive itself to a charging station and then drive 
>away when its battery is full would make lots of sense. The same pseudo-taxi 
>that needed an human to stand around waiting for the pseudo-taxi to arrive to 
>connect the charger, and then be there to disconnect the charger when the 
>pseudo-taxi is charged...that's gonna be a non-starter.

Actually, I could see having one (or more if needed) people working at the Taxi 
Depot to do charger Plugin/Unplug - AND check the Taxi for things like damage, 
stuff left in the car, etc...
One guy could probably handle dozens of taxis.


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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: i3 EV self-parks> driver climbs out of window toprove (video)

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Maybe the same idea in your garage as used on trains and bumper cars:
Have a metal plate on the floor that is at zero potential (Neutral leg),
which can be contacted from underneath the car and an out-of-reach metal
plate overhead that carries the phase potential, so all the car needs to
do to charge is to raise/lower a wire and contact the plates? Make the
plates appropriately large that any way (forward/backward) or position
in the garage will still allow contacting the plates.
Avoids the issues of positioning and efficiency of wireless charging.
I understand that one electric bus uses an overhead contact to
fast-charge, but that is an outdoor applicatoin road-side, so both wires
are connected using an oversized overhead contact.

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info
Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626


-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Ben Goren via
EV
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 11:20 AM
To: Robert Bruninga; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: i3 EV self-parks> driver climbs out of window
toprove (video)

On Aug 6, 2014, at 10:02 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV 
wrote:

>> expecting the car to plug itself into a wall outlet / cable is asking
a
>> bit much.
> 
> Actually If I had the time (after I retire maybe) I can easily imagin
a
> robot arm on the garage wall that can reach out, find and connect to
some
> contacts mounted somehow on the front license plate area.

That's a lot of moving parts to break, especially considering how many
people have trouble not running over things in the garage already. Plus
the hazard of people or pets or other things getting caught up in the
mechanism.

Still, what's important for autonomous vehicles is some form of
autonomous charge connection, whatever that form might take. If a
mechanical coupling works, fantastic.

For personal EVs, it's not an issue; it's really not that big a deal to
grab the charger off the wall and stick it in the car. But, once we get
into the realm of autonomous vehicles, and especially any sort of
application in which the general public is going to be "operating" the
vehicles, the car needs to be able to charge itself as well as it can
drive and park itself.

A pseudo-taxi that could drive itself to a charging station and then
drive away when its battery is full would make lots of sense. The same
pseudo-taxi that needed an human to stand around waiting for the
pseudo-taxi to arrive to connect the charger, and then be there to
disconnect the charger when the pseudo-taxi is charged...that's gonna be
a non-starter.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: i3 EV self-parks> driver climbs out of window to prove (video)

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Aug 6, 2014, at 10:06 AM, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:

> The other problem with cordless charging - whether robot arm or induction - 
> is that it requires a certain orientation of the vehicle. In my case, I back 
> into my driveway because it's too difficult to see when backing out into 
> traffic.  So I either would need a charge connection on the back of the car 
> or would need one that I can drive over, somehow.  Or one on each side...

I don't see automated charging being anything other than a luxury item for 
personal EVs until they get dirt cheap. But I *do* see them being indispensable 
for autonomous vehicle applications.

They'd even make sense for certain fleet applications if the cars only park 
themselves and do no other autonomous driving. You could design a parking lot / 
charging station with cars packed in with only an inch of clearance on all four 
sides from neighboring cars. The car pulls itself out, the driver gets in and 
drives away; at the end of the day, the driver gets out of the car and walks 
away as the car parks itself into a space impossible for the doors to even open.

That opens up a *lot* of square footage in what could potentially be an area 
with expensive real estate rates.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: i3 EV self-parks> driver climbs out of window to prove (video)

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Aug 6, 2014, at 10:02 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV  wrote:

>> expecting the car to plug itself into a wall outlet / cable is asking a
>> bit much.
> 
> Actually If I had the time (after I retire maybe) I can easily imagin a
> robot arm on the garage wall that can reach out, find and connect to some
> contacts mounted somehow on the front license plate area.

That's a lot of moving parts to break, especially considering how many people 
have trouble not running over things in the garage already. Plus the hazard of 
people or pets or other things getting caught up in the mechanism.

Still, what's important for autonomous vehicles is some form of autonomous 
charge connection, whatever that form might take. If a mechanical coupling 
works, fantastic.

For personal EVs, it's not an issue; it's really not that big a deal to grab 
the charger off the wall and stick it in the car. But, once we get into the 
realm of autonomous vehicles, and especially any sort of application in which 
the general public is going to be "operating" the vehicles, the car needs to be 
able to charge itself as well as it can drive and park itself.

A pseudo-taxi that could drive itself to a charging station and then drive away 
when its battery is full would make lots of sense. The same pseudo-taxi that 
needed an human to stand around waiting for the pseudo-taxi to arrive to 
connect the charger, and then be there to disconnect the charger when the 
pseudo-taxi is charged...that's gonna be a non-starter.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: motorcycle drivetrain?

[Lee Hart via EV]

EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

Ben, autos stopped using chain or belt drives 80 years ago ...


Well, lots of cars still have timing chains. They last longer than 
belts. :-)


--
We cannot waste time. We can only waste ourselves.
-- George Matthew Adams
--
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: i3 EV self-parks> driver climbs out of window to prove (video)

[Peri Hartman via EV]

The other problem with cordless charging - whether robot arm or 
induction - is that it requires a certain orientation of the vehicle.  
In my case, I back into my driveway because it's too difficult to see 
when backing out into traffic.  So I either would need a charge 
connection on the back of the car or would need one that I can drive 
over, somehow.  Or one on each side...


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Robert Bruninga via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: ev...@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 06-Aug-14 10:02:04 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: i3 EV self-parks> driver climbs out of window 
to prove (video)


 expecting the car to plug itself into a wall outlet / cable is asking 
a

bit much.

Actually If I had the time (after I retire maybe) I can easily imagin a
robot arm on the garage wall that can reach out, find and connect to 
some

contacts mounted somehow on the front license plate area.

In fact, no robotics, just a CUP/CONE system on a spring. The cone is 
on

the car (aerodynamics) and the cone is on a spring arm. Just drive it
home. NAVY pilots do this all the time flying at over 300 MPH in 3
dimensions to a moving cone!

My problem is the clutter in the garage would need a 20' long arm to 
get

past the junk.

Bob, WB4APR


On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 12:21 PM, Ben Goren via EV  
wrote:


 On Aug 6, 2014, at 12:13 AM, brucedp5 via EV  
wrote:


 > EVLN: i3 EV self-parks> driver climbs out of window to prove 
(video)


 When cars become fully autonomous a la Google, that'll significantly
 change many dynamics, especially efficiency. I'd expect individual
 ownership to plummet, and instead for car sharing systems to become 
the
 norm -- more like limousine or taxi services, but driverless. And, in 
such
 a system, range becomes a moot point; the system automatically 
dispatches a
 vehicle with enough range for your trip, or it does a pony express 
thing
 for longer trips. Earlier discussions here about wireless charging 
would
 become critical; a car can park itself on a wireless charger, but 
expecting
 the car to plug itself into a wall outlet / cable is asking a bit 
much.


 ...all that is a ways into the future, of course. Personally, I'm
 expecting we'll see autonomous long-haul trucks first, and likely 
within a
 decade; the economics of such a system would be overwhelming. Now's a 
great

 time for teamsters to plan for a career change

 b&
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Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: motorcycle drivetrain?

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Aug 6, 2014, at 12:37 AM, Dennis Miles via EV  wrote:

> With the gearing Ben could avoid the second
> electric motor, and buy more batteries. But it is your decision, Ben.

I do like the idea from a mechanical elegance perspective...but the second 
motor also gives more "oomph" and doesn't cost all that much more than a 
transfer case. Indeed, the twin AC-51s have specs on paper that're naively a 
close match to the stock 260, meaning all-electric mode should be a significant 
upgrade over original...whereas a single motor, especially with limited 
gearing, would likely be perfectly drivable but also sluggish. Plus, with stock 
Harley pulleys, the twin motors will have a 5.7:1 total gear ratio that's 
slightly more optimal than a 6:1 ratio.

...and, with the V8 still up front and the gas tank still in the rear, I'm 
already concerned about where to cram the batteries as it is. 46 CALB 100 Ah 
cells or their equivalent are going to take up a lot of space.

I will write this, though: your suggestion has got me thinking of putting a 
front wheel drive axle (with appropriate reduction gearing) in my '68 VW 
Westfalia and driving it with an electric motor to create a through-the-wheels 
hybrid as a next project after the Mustang. Targeting a similar all-electric 
range and matching the (much) lower power of the aircooled engine would likely 
make for a pretty sweet setup there. Probably simpler and much cheaper, too; 
smaller everything, and no need to interface with the existing drive system. 
Plus, all-wheel-drive could tempt me to get stuck in some truly inaccessible 
spot atop a lonely mountain in the middle of nowhere

Cheers,

b&
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: i3 EV self-parks> driver climbs out of window to prove (video)

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

> expecting the car to plug itself into a wall outlet / cable is asking a
bit much.

Actually If I had the time (after I retire maybe) I can easily imagin a
robot arm on the garage wall that can reach out, find and connect to some
contacts mounted somehow on the front license plate area.

In fact, no robotics, just a CUP/CONE system on a spring.  The cone is on
the car (aerodynamics) and the cone is on a spring arm.  Just drive it
home.  NAVY pilots do this all the time flying at over 300 MPH in 3
dimensions to a moving cone!

My problem is the clutter in the garage would need a 20' long arm to get
past the junk.

Bob, WB4APR


On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 12:21 PM, Ben Goren via EV  wrote:

> On Aug 6, 2014, at 12:13 AM, brucedp5 via EV  wrote:
>
> > EVLN: i3 EV self-parks> driver climbs out of window to prove (video)
>
> When cars become fully autonomous a la Google, that'll significantly
> change many dynamics, especially efficiency. I'd expect individual
> ownership to plummet, and instead for car sharing systems to become the
> norm -- more like limousine or taxi services, but driverless. And, in such
> a system, range becomes a moot point; the system automatically dispatches a
> vehicle with enough range for your trip, or it does a pony express thing
> for longer trips. Earlier discussions here about wireless charging would
> become critical; a car can park itself on a wireless charger, but expecting
> the car to plug itself into a wall outlet / cable is asking a bit much.
>
> ...all that is a ways into the future, of course. Personally, I'm
> expecting we'll see autonomous long-haul trucks first, and likely within a
> decade; the economics of such a system would be overwhelming. Now's a great
> time for teamsters to plan for a career change
>
> b&
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Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: motorcycle drivetrain?

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Aug 6, 2014, at 9:06 AM, Roger Stockton via EV  wrote:

> Ben Goren wrote:
> 
>> Very interesting! That exact design won't work, as I'm keeping the V8 --
>> but the basic geometry is very similar to what I have in mind.
> 
> Understood; I was thinking that it might be easier to modify the combiner 
> output shaft to be double-ended so that one side attaches to the tranny 
> output and the (shortened) driveshaft attaches to the other, possibly with 
> the torque combiner bolting right up to the tranny much like some transfer 
> cases do.

I'll have to think about that. Again, my initial thought is just to put the 
pulleys on some sort of custom-machined shaft that sits between the 
transmission output and the U-joint.

>> Any chance you can tell me if I've at least got the right order of
>> magnitude? If so, I'm not going to worry. Even if it only has a 10,000
>> hour lifespan, that's still over half a million miles at freeway speeds.
> 
> Sorry; I'm an EE, not ME ;^>

And I'm neither!

> I suspect that it is not just the static load of the belt tension, but the 
> tension added to one side of the belt/chain when the motor is delivering 
> torque.

That was my initial thought, too...until late yesterday evening when I was 
doing a bunch of research on it. And, if I'm understanding it correctly, all 
that putting a load on the system does is move the direction of the force, but 
not its magnitude -- and for a reason that makes sense: when you pull on the 
one side, you increase tension on that side...but you also _decrease_ tension 
on the opposite side by the same amount. So, instead of the (say) ten pounds 
being applied towards the axle of the opposite pulley, the same ten pounds is 
now applied on a different angle.

> I would not use the peak torque load, but the typical cruising condition

I started with that, but also figured that it wouldn't hurt to get pessimistic 
with the estimation. If even the worst-case scenario is acceptable, I should be 
in good shape.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: motorcycle drivetrain?

[Roland via EV]

 = = = =


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Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: motorcycle drivetrain?

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Aug 6, 2014, at 9:02 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV  wrote:

> On 6 Aug 2014 at 3:37, Dennis Miles via EV wrote:
> 
>> Ben, autos stopped using chain or belt drives 80 years ago ... 
> 
> Thank goodness!  Imagine having to crawl under your car to clean and lube 
> the chain every month or so.  
> 
> That's something to think about for this Mustang hybrid conversion - how 
> will you lube the chains, Ben?

That's why I'm (still tentatively) planning not on a chain but an Harley-style 
Gilmer (toothed) belt. No lubrication required (or desired). Belt tension needs 
to be checked every so often -- likely about as often as the V8 will need oil 
changes. Harleys get as many miles out of their belts as aircooled VW Busses 
get out of their engines, with no more maintenance than occasional tension 
adjustments. Mechanical efficiency is good, too, within an hair's breadth of a 
chain in an oil bath.

I'm also figuring there'll be some sheet metal beneath the motors to protect 
them from road debris, with the front and rear shaped to create an air scoop 
for cooling. Put a grille and filter in the front and call it a day -- with 
that kind of protection from the road, assuming proper sizing, the belts should 
last much longer than on a motorcycle (where the belts are often partially 
exposed).

See here for an article with photos discussing the pros and cons of each drive 
system:

http://www.motorcycledaily.com/2008/05/08may08_chainsvbelt/

Cheers,

b&
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: i3 EV self-parks> driver climbs out of window to prove (video)

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Aug 6, 2014, at 12:13 AM, brucedp5 via EV  wrote:

> EVLN: i3 EV self-parks> driver climbs out of window to prove (video)

When cars become fully autonomous a la Google, that'll significantly change 
many dynamics, especially efficiency. I'd expect individual ownership to 
plummet, and instead for car sharing systems to become the norm -- more like 
limousine or taxi services, but driverless. And, in such a system, range 
becomes a moot point; the system automatically dispatches a vehicle with enough 
range for your trip, or it does a pony express thing for longer trips. Earlier 
discussions here about wireless charging would become critical; a car can park 
itself on a wireless charger, but expecting the car to plug itself into a wall 
outlet / cable is asking a bit much.

...all that is a ways into the future, of course. Personally, I'm expecting 
we'll see autonomous long-haul trucks first, and likely within a decade; the 
economics of such a system would be overwhelming. Now's a great time for 
teamsters to plan for a career change

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: motorcycle drivetrain?

[Roger Stockton via EV]

Ben Goren wrote:

> Very interesting! That exact design won't work, as I'm keeping the V8 --
> but the basic geometry is very similar to what I have in mind.

Understood; I was thinking that it might be easier to modify the combiner 
output shaft to be double-ended so that one side attaches to the tranny output 
and the (shortened) driveshaft attaches to the other, possibly with the torque 
combiner bolting right up to the tranny much like some transfer cases do.

> Thanks for that. I'm not sure I'm understanding the math right, but I
> *think* Harley belt drives are supposed to be tensioned to 10 lbf. I think
> I'm reasonably sure that I've got the order of magnitude right, at least.
> Using 10 lbf radial, 100 lbf axial (the motor's torque rating), and 5000
> RPM, I get a rating of close to 2 million hours. Just for giggles, if I
> make it 100 lbf for both, it still has about a million hours rating.
> 
> Any chance you can tell me if I've at least got the right order of
> magnitude? If so, I'm not going to worry. Even if it only has a 10,000
> hour lifespan, that's still over half a million miles at freeway speeds.

Sorry; I'm an EE, not ME ;^>  I suspect that it is not just the static load of 
the belt tension, but the tension added to one side of the belt/chain when the 
motor is delivering torque.  I would not use the peak torque load, but the 
typical cruising condition; perhaps estimate RPM and HP required at 40mph and 
then figure out how much tension is added to the tension side of the belt under 
that torque load.

Cheers,

Roger.

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Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: motorcycle drivetrain?

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 6 Aug 2014 at 3:37, Dennis Miles via EV wrote:

> Ben, autos stopped using chain or belt drives 80 years ago ... 

Thank goodness!  Imagine having to crawl under your car to clean and lube 
the chain every month or so.  

That's something to think about for this Mustang hybrid conversion - how 
will you lube the chains, Ben?

Curiously, one limited exception is/was early Solectria Force EVs.  They 
used an exposed cogged belt between the motor and transaxle.  Sales were on 
the order of a few hundred, though, so you could hardly call it a mass-
produced automobile.  

There are a scant few others.  

I think one version of the Toyota Prius (2004-2009?) has a chain and 
sprockets somewhere in the PSD (driving the differential?).  It's fully 
enclosed, however, so it's maintenance-free.  I've never heard of one 
failing.

Depending on how you define "chain or belt drive," another exception might 
be the FWD Oldsmobile Toronado (correct spelling) introduced in 1966, and 
still on offer into the early 1990s.  It had a fully enclosed chain between 
the torque converter and transmission.  The transmission was mounted next to 
the engine, facing "backward," driving the front wheels.  

The same "folded" front wheel drive system was also used in a Cadillac 
model, and in some GM RVs.

FWIW, I don't know of any Toros that have ever been converted to EVs.  It 
would be quite a challenge.  They were monsters, very large and heavy, and I 
don't see any way you could replace that customized automatic with a manual.

The Corbin Sparrow / Myers NMG EV also had/has a belt drive to the rear 
wheel, but that's really classified as a motorcycle, so I guess it doesn't 
count.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: motorcycle drivetrain?

[Roger Stockton via EV]

Dennis Miles wrote:

> {Ben, autos stopped using chain or belt
> drives 80 years ago, I like using the 4WD transfer case with the 2::1 low
> range for in town and 1::1 on highway coupled with the stock 3.0::1 in the
> rear axle& differential.

I realise it isn't quite what you meant, and I don't profess to profess to be 
an expert on modern transfer cases, but those I am familiar with (which are 
less than 80yrs old ;^), have contained a chain drive running in an oil bath.  
While a transfer case would be an elegant way to reduce the custom fabrication 
required, it won't necessarily avoid the use of a chain drive.

Cheers,

Roger.
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Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: motorcycle drivetrain?

[Pestka, Dennis J via EV]

Dennis

Looks like Lee already answered this, unless you have anything further to add.

Thanks Lee;
Dennis 
Elsberry, MO   
http://www.evalbum.com/1366 
http://evalbum.com/3715  




-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Pestka, Dennis J via EV
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 6:52 AM
To: Dennis Miles; Electric Vehicle Discussion List; EVDL Administrator
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: motorcycle drivetrain?

Dennis;

The motor I have for my 72 Vega has a "Steel V Ring Commutator".
Can you educate us on the differences between this motor and a normal ADV or 
Warp DC motor.

Thanks;

Dennis Elsberry, MO
http://www.evalbum.com/1366
http://evalbum.com/3715  



-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Dennis Miles via EV
Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2014 2:47 PM
To: EVDL Administrator; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: motorcycle drivetrain?

David, and others, the most fragile part, of a series DC motor, is the 
commutator. And that is, because the copper segments are glued to an insulating 
core. When the current is flowing, the segments heat up and soften the glue, 
then they are subjecting to "lifting," away from that insulating core, and 
causing problems with the brushes, resulting a need for an extensive repair. 
But, with no (or very low) current, the glue maintains its strength, and the 
motor can be spun to a higher RPM, without damage.

PS. added a new "You Tube" Link (Below)

Dennis Lee Miles

(*evprofes...@evprofessor.com )*

* Founder:**EV Tech. Institute Inc.*

*Phone #* *(863) 944-9913 (12 noon to 12 midnight Eastern US Time)*

*Educating yourself, does not mean you were **stupid; it means, you are 
intelligent enough,  **to know, that there is plenty left to learn!*

*  You Tube Video link:  http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss
 *

*NEW You Tube Video link: *http://youtu. be/Pz9-TZtySh8



On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 5:25 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV  wrote:

> On 4 Aug 2014 at 18:14, Ben Goren via EV wrote:
>
> > He says it's okay to spin the motors faster than 8000 RPM so long as 
> > it's not the controller that's sending the current to the motors 
> > that's doing the spinning.
>
> I wonder why this would be.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
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> To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the 
> webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: motorcycle drivetrain?

[Pestka, Dennis J via EV]

Dennis;

The motor I have for my 72 Vega has a "Steel V Ring Commutator".
Can you educate us on the differences between this motor and a normal ADV or 
Warp DC motor.

Thanks;

Dennis 
Elsberry, MO   
http://www.evalbum.com/1366 
http://evalbum.com/3715  



-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Dennis Miles via EV
Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2014 2:47 PM
To: EVDL Administrator; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: motorcycle drivetrain?

David, and others, the most fragile part, of a series DC motor, is the 
commutator. And that is, because the copper segments are glued to an insulating 
core. When the current is flowing, the segments heat up and soften the glue, 
then they are subjecting to "lifting," away from that insulating core, and 
causing problems with the brushes, resulting a need for an extensive repair. 
But, with no (or very low) current, the glue maintains its strength, and the 
motor can be spun to a higher RPM, without damage.

PS. added a new "You Tube" Link (Below)

Dennis Lee Miles

(*evprofes...@evprofessor.com )*

* Founder:**EV Tech. Institute Inc.*

*Phone #* *(863) 944-9913 (12 noon to 12 midnight Eastern US Time)*

*Educating yourself, does not mean you were **stupid; it means, you are 
intelligent enough,  **to know, that there is plenty left to learn!*

*  You Tube Video link:  http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss
 *

*NEW You Tube Video link: *http://youtu. be/Pz9-TZtySh8



On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 5:25 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV  wrote:

> On 4 Aug 2014 at 18:14, Ben Goren via EV wrote:
>
> > He says it's okay to spin the motors faster than 8000 RPM so long as 
> > it's not the controller that's sending the current to the motors 
> > that's doing the spinning.
>
> I wonder why this would be.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL 
> Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
> = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not reach me.  
> To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the 
> webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: motorcycle drivetrain?

[Dennis Miles via EV]

 type of commutator is much stronger, and better able to
> > withstand high temperatures and high RPMs.
> >
> > Here's one image I could quickly find:
> >
> > http://www.iccinternational.com/resource/vring.html
> > --
> > We cannot waste time. We can only waste ourselves.
> > -- George Matthew Adams
> > --
> > Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm
> >
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> (http://groups.yahoo.com/
> > group/NEDRA)
> >
> >
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[EVDL] EVLN: BMW i3 vs Nissan Leaf – EV Comparison

[brucedp5 via EV]

http://www.bmwblog.com/2014/07/30/bmw-i3-vs-nissan-leaf-comparison/
BMW i3 vs Nissan Leaf – Comparison
July 30th, 2014 by Horatiu Boeriu

[image
http://www.bmwblog.com/wp-content/uploads/bmw-i3-vs-nissan-leaf-galeriebild-1127480952207329656.jpg
  / Motor-Talk.de
]

AutoExpress UK compares the new BMW i3 against the current EV industry
leader, Nissan Leaf.

Worldwide Nissan Leaf is already the best-selling electric car in history,
with more than 110,000 sold globally since December 2011. The BMW i3 went on
sale earlier this year and BMW is currently working at full capacity to
fulfill the requests.

In Europe, the Leaf is officially rated at 123 miles but recent tests showed
real life range to be around 90 miles. Same tests report on the i3 having a
driving range of 105 miles from a 22 kWh battery pack.

BMW i3 vs Nissan Leaf Comparison

But how do the two electric vehicles fare against each other? Here is an
excerpt from their review:

 Charging

 Both cars feature illuminated charging sockets, helping to take the strain
out of plugging in at night, plus they can be charged to 80 per cent
capacity in between seven and eight hours when using a standard household
socket.

 However, if you’ve got an off-road parking space, then a powerful
wall-mounted charger will be a better bet. Nissan uses the free British Gas
unit, but you’ll pay £315 for BMW’s i Wallbox.
 Space race

 The BMW has the upper hand when it comes to interior room. Its neat
pillarless door opening makes for easy access to the back seat – although
the wide, carbon fibre door sill will be a hurdle for some. Light materials
and large windows also help make the i3’s cabin feel brighter and more airy
than its rival’s more traditional interior.
 Residuals

 Mainstream manufacturers are embracing electric cars, but the used trade is
less convinced about their long-term appeal. Our experts predict the BMW
will hold on to just 30.8 per cent of its value after three years, while the
Nissan will retain a woeful 26 per cent.
[© bmwblog.com]




For all EVLN posts use:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=search_page&node=413529&query=evln&sort=date

http://www.abc6.com/story/26192477/fremont-to-host-free-electric-vehicle-test-drive-event
Free EV Test-Drive Event @Pacific Commons 10a-4p 8/9 Fremont, CA
...
http://energycenter.org/civicrm/event/info?id=1545

http://cleantechnica.com/2014/07/29/best-electric-unicycle/
Who Makes The Best Self-Balancing Electric Unicycle?

http://www.citylab.com/commute/2014/07/if-an-electric-bike-is-ever-going-to-hit-it-big-in-the-us-its-this-one/375167/
Electric Copenhagen Wheel replaces the back wheel of any bicycle

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/pure-lithium-in-battery-may-generate-more-powerful-battery/
Stanford's pure Lithium anode battery makes a more powerful battery

http://www.automotiveworld.com/news-releases/bmw-unveils-bmw-dc-fast-chargers-chargenow-dc-fast-program-plug-2014/
BMW i DC Fast Chargers and ChargeNow DC Fast program @Plug-In 2014
+
EVLN: i3 EV self-parks> driver climbs out of window to prove (video)


{brucedp.150m.com}



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[EVDL] EVLN: i3 EV self-parks> driver climbs out of window to prove (video)

[brucedp5 via EV]

EVLN: i3 EV self-parks> driver climbs out of window to prove (video)

% See Romanian pilot/driver Porcisteanu prove the i3 EV parks itself, listen
to the sounds the i3 makes as it self-parks %

http://www.inautonews.com/video-see-a-bmw-i3-park-itself
(VIDEO) See a BMW i3 park itself 
by Cristian Gnaticov - July 31st, 2014

[image  
http://www.inautonews.com/wp-content/uploads/yapb_cache/bmw_i3_park_assist.1buw3cwniwo0kws4g8gckkwkw.a5fuq7lrqzkgc0ccw4ss08gso.th.jpeg


video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=WGoeIjSuJzo
BMW i3 - (Self) Parking Assist (Guidance) by Vali Porcisteanu (Rally Driver)
porcisteanu Jul 29, 2014 
BMW i3 - (Self) Parking Assist (Guidance) - Awesome!!!
Vali Porcisteanu - Drive Test for La Volan - Digi 24 (Romania)
]

A new video uploaded on YouTube is showing one of the most interesting
“gadget green” cars out there, the BMW i3, in an attempt to park itself.

Did you ever wonder how the Parking Assistant system of the new BMW i3
actually works? Well, in case you did, than the video posted below is what
you have been looking for because you can check out the “green” city car in
“action”. The electric vehicle can park itself without any operations from
the driver needed thanks to its radar which is scanning big enough parking
spots and when this is finally found, the car is doing everything by itself.

The video posted below is showing the Romanian rally driver, Vali
Porcisteanu, activating the Parking Assistant and then jumping out of the
car through the window, in order to prove that the model is actually parking
itself. As a small reminder, the BMW i3 is taking its power from an electric
motor, with 170 HP (125 kW) and 250 Nm (184 lb-ft) of torque, connected to a
single-speed transmission sending power to the rear wheels. This can be
backed up by [an optional] range extender in the shape of the 650cc
two-cylinder petrol engine, which will add an extra 34 HP.
[© inautonews.com]
...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valentin_Porcisteanu
Valentin Porcisteanu - a Romanian pilot/driver
...
http://www.carbuzz.com/news/2014/8/1/Watch-a-BMW-i3-Park-Itself-7721747/
Watch a BMW i3 Park Itself
Aug 01, 2014
[image
http://db.carbuzz.com/images2/41/8000/600/418639.jpg
]




For all EVLN posts use:
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http://www.abc6.com/story/26192477/fremont-to-host-free-electric-vehicle-test-drive-event
Free EV Test-Drive Event @Pacific Commons 10a-4p 8/9 Fremont, CA
...
http://energycenter.org/civicrm/event/info?id=1545

http://cleantechnica.com/2014/07/29/best-electric-unicycle/
Who Makes The Best Self-Balancing Electric Unicycle?

http://www.citylab.com/commute/2014/07/if-an-electric-bike-is-ever-going-to-hit-it-big-in-the-us-its-this-one/375167/
Electric Copenhagen Wheel replaces the back wheel of any bicycle

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/pure-lithium-in-battery-may-generate-more-powerful-battery/
Stanford's pure Lithium anode battery makes a more powerful battery

http://www.automotiveworld.com/news-releases/bmw-unveils-bmw-dc-fast-chargers-chargenow-dc-fast-program-plug-2014/
BMW i DC Fast Chargers and ChargeNow DC Fast program @Plug-In 2014
+
EVLN: BMW i3 vs Nissan Leaf – EV Comparison


{brucedp.150m.com}



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