Re: Epiphenomenalism (was: Re: Bruno's Restaurant)

On 25 Sep 2012, at 19:03, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Tuesday, September 25, 2012 4:43:29 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 25 Sep 2012, at 05:45, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 12:00 AM, Jason Resch > wrote: > >> Pain is anything but epiphenomenal. The fact that someon

Re: Physics, Metaphysics, and Realism

On 25 Sep 2012, at 19:06, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Tuesday, September 25, 2012 3:02:05 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 24 Sep 2012, at 18:16, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Monday, September 24, 2012 5:13:11 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 23 Sep 2012, at 20:11, Craig Weinberg wrote: > > >

Re: Can a computer make independent choices ?

On 26 Sep 2012, at 00:30, Stephen P. King wrote: On 9/25/2012 8:26 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King I don't deny that a computer can optimize itself, but I deny that the operation is autonomous, meaning independent, for ultimately it is software dependent, using a program written by

Re: questions on machines, belief, awareness, and knowledge

On 26 Sep 2012, at 06:38, Jason Resch wrote: On Sep 25, 2012, at 10:20 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Hi Roger Clough Hi Bruno Marchal Do you believe that a computer has a physical mind that can be conscious ? My personal beliefs are private. With comp a computer (universal machine/number

In Platonia (according to Leibniz's metaphysics), every explanation is a cause !

In Platonia (according to Leibniz's metaphysics), every explanation is a cause ! http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/leibniz-causation/#7 Leibniz's principle (which has it ancestors principally in Stoicism) is this: “Whatever is fundamentally explanatory must be an active principle” (Shapere, 45

WHOA! A reassessment of my position that computers cannot be alive, conscious, or intelligent

Hi Bruno Marchal I'm still trying to digest it, but Leibniz' principles that a) every explanation is a cause, and b) every substance can be causative and c) every substance is alive (and presumably intelligent) Allow the possibility of computers being conscious. And alive. And intelli

Re: Nonsense!

All these phisicalists considerations are extremely interesting, but we can not fall in the temptation to consider them an exhaustive notions of untimate Truth. These considerations take phenomenons as things occurring in the external reality, when really perceptions happens in the mind. In the min

Re: WHOA! A reassessment of my position that computers cannot be alive, conscious, or intelligent

Hi Roger Clough, Hi Bruno Marchal I'm still trying to digest it, but Leibniz' principles that a) every explanation is a cause, and b) every substance can be causative and c) every substance is alive (and presumably intelligent) Allow the possibility of computers being conscious. And ali

Re: Can a computer make independent choices ?

On 9/26/2012 4:18 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Isn't the self 1p ? not sure. The self is 1p, by definition. Hmm The self obtained by the Dx = "xx" method is entirely 3p, and is the one usually denoted by Gödel's predicate: Bp. To get the 1p, we connect it to truth, which makes sense as

Re: Nonsense!

On 9/26/2012 6:45 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: All these phisicalists considerations are extremely interesting, but we can not fall in the temptation to consider them an exhaustive notions of untimate Truth. These considerations take phenomenons as things occurring in the external reality, when

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

On Tuesday, September 25, 2012 3:19:40 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: > > On 9/25/2012 12:07 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: > > No process or substance, function or form is remotely a substitute for > consciousness. > >> > Well that will be a greatly relief to those engineers producing > aritific

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

On Tue, Sep 25, 2012 Craig Weinberg wrote: >>> There is no information literally in the wire. >>> >> >> >>Then why are you wasting your money paying for internet service, if its >> not information then what do you call it, what are you getting for your >> money? >> > > > I'm getting conduits for

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

On Tue, Sep 25, 2012 Craig Weinberg wrote: > If you neatly cut the top of a candle flame off would you expect to be > able to repair it? > Yes. > Have you even read a single account of cellular memory? Here are 10 > http://www.paulpearsall.com/info/press/3.html > And so now we know where you

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

On Tuesday, September 25, 2012 7:27:43 PM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: > > On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 2:20 AM, Craig Weinberg > > > wrote: > > > Cells may not be only machines though, they are also self-organizing > life > > experiences. They have mechanistic characteristics as well, but they are >

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

On Wednesday, September 26, 2012 11:45:08 AM UTC-4, John Clark wrote: > > On Tue, Sep 25, 2012 Craig Weinberg >wrote: > > >>> There is no information literally in the wire. >>> >>> >>Then why are you wasting your money paying for internet service, if >>> its not information then what do y

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

On Wednesday, September 26, 2012 12:04:03 PM UTC-4, John Clark wrote: > > On Tue, Sep 25, 2012 Craig Weinberg >wrote: > > > If you neatly cut the top of a candle flame off would you expect to be >> able to repair it? >> > > Yes. > Now we know that you are delusional. > > > Have you even re

Re: Nonsense!

On 9/25/2012 3:48 PM, Stephen P. King wrote: Yes, and these micro-branches are effectively classical because the system is entangled with a large number of environmental degrees of freedom. Still, you can't identify a conscious observer with a particular micro-branch, you need to consider a larg

Re: Prime Numbers

On 9/25/2012 9:51 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Sep 25, 2012, at 11:05 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 9/25/2012 8:54 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Sep 25, 2012, at 10:27 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 9/25/2012 4:07 PM, Jason Resch wrote: Yes. If we cannot prove that their existence is self-contradictory

Re: Physics, Metaphysics, and Realism

On Wednesday, September 26, 2012 3:47:26 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 25 Sep 2012, at 19:06, Craig Weinberg wrote: > > On Tuesday, September 25, 2012 3:02:05 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> On 24 Sep 2012, at 18:16, Craig Weinberg wrote: >> >> >> >> On Monday, September 24, 201

Re: Epiphenomenalism (was: Re: Bruno's Restaurant)

On Wednesday, September 26, 2012 3:45:09 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 25 Sep 2012, at 19:03, Craig Weinberg wrote: > > > > On Tuesday, September 25, 2012 4:43:29 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> On 25 Sep 2012, at 05:45, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: >> >> > On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 a

Re: Nonsense!

On 9/26/2012 3:45 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: All these phisicalists considerations are extremely interesting, but we can not fall in the temptation to consider them an exhaustive notions of untimate Truth. These considerations take phenomenons as things occurring in the external reality, when

Re: Nonsense!

But mind can agree also in things that are not phisical. and these things are much more important for life. Almost all the higuer concepts that we manage in daily life are non material. We are now talking about existence and truth for example, that upto my knowledge are not material. These non phis

Conscious robots

An interesting paper which comports with my idea that "the problem of consciousness" will be "solved" by engineering. Or John Clark's point that consciousness is easy, intelligence is hard. Consciousness in Cognitive Architectures A Principled Analysis of RCS, Soar and ACT-R Here's an excerpt

Re: Prime Numbers

On Sep 26, 2012, at 12:29 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 9/25/2012 9:51 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Sep 25, 2012, at 11:05 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 9/25/2012 8:54 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Sep 25, 2012, at 10:27 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 9/25/2012 4:07 PM, Jason Resch wrote: Yes. If we cannot

Re: Conscious robots

On Wednesday, September 26, 2012 2:35:27 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: > > An interesting paper which comports with my idea that "the problem of > consciousness" will be "solved" by engineering. Or John Clark's point that > consciousness is easy, intelligence is hard. > Consciousness is easy if you

Re: Nonsense!

On 9/26/2012 11:27 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: But mind can agree also in things that are not phisical. and these things are much more important for life. Almost all the higuer concepts that we manage in daily life are non material. People agree on particular statements being true (generally

Re: Prime Numbers

On 9/26/2012 12:11 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Sep 26, 2012, at 12:29 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 9/25/2012 9:51 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Sep 25, 2012, at 11:05 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 9/25/2012 8:54 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Sep 25, 2012, at 10:27 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 9/25/2012 4:07

Re: Conscious robots

On 9/26/2012 12:19 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Wednesday, September 26, 2012 2:35:27 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: An interesting paper which comports with my idea that "the problem of consciousness" will be "solved" by engineering. Or John Clark's point that consciousness is easy, inte

Electromagnetic Field Theory of Consciousness

Saw this paper making the rounds and reblogged it: Synchronous Firing and Its Influence on the Brain’s Electromagnetic Field Evidence for an Electromagnetic Field Theory of Consciousness http://www3.surrey.ac.uk/qe/pdfs/cemi_theory_paper.pdf A step in the right direction I think, although ultima

Re: Conscious robots

On Wednesday, September 26, 2012 3:37:09 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: > > On 9/26/2012 12:19 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: > > On Wednesday, September 26, 2012 2:35:27 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: >> >> An interesting paper which comports with my idea that "the problem of >> consciousness" will be "solved"

Re: Prime Numbers

On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 2:33 PM, meekerdb wrote: > On 9/26/2012 12:11 PM, Jason Resch wrote: > >> >> >> On Sep 26, 2012, at 12:29 PM, meekerdb wrote: >> >> On 9/25/2012 9:51 PM, Jason Resch wrote: >>> On Sep 25, 2012, at 11:05 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 9/25/2012 8:54 PM,

Re: Prime Numbers

On 9/26/2012 2:53 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 2:33 PM, meekerdb > wrote: On 9/26/2012 12:11 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Sep 26, 2012, at 12:29 PM, meekerdb mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote: On 9/25/2012 9:51 PM, Jaso

Re: questions on machines, belief, awareness, and knowledge

On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 3:33 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > On 26 Sep 2012, at 06:38, Jason Resch wrote: > > >> >> On Sep 25, 2012, at 10:20 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >>> Hi Roger Clough >>> >>> Hi Bruno Marchal Do you believe that a computer has a physical mind that can be co

Re: Prime Numbers

On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 5:01 PM, meekerdb wrote: > On 9/26/2012 2:53 PM, Jason Resch wrote: > > > > On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 2:33 PM, meekerdb wrote: > >> On 9/26/2012 12:11 PM, Jason Resch wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Sep 26, 2012, at 12:29 PM, meekerdb wrote: >>> >>> On 9/25/2012 9:51 PM, Jason

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 2:10 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: >> Metabolism involves replacing parts of cells that break down with >> inanimate matter from the environment. The cells may or may not have >> experiences associated with them but apparently this process preserves >> the experiences. A car m

Re: Epiphenomenalism (was: Re: Bruno's Restaurant)

On Tue, Sep 25, 2012 at 3:34 PM, Jason Resch wrote: > If it has no causal efficacy, what causes someone to talk about the pain > they are experiencing? Is it all coincidental? There is a sequence of physical events from the application of the painful stimulus to the subject saying "that hurts",

Re: Epiphenomenalism (was: Re: Bruno's Restaurant)

On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 9:24 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > On Tue, Sep 25, 2012 at 3:34 PM, Jason Resch wrote: > > > If it has no causal efficacy, what causes someone to talk about the pain > > they are experiencing? Is it all coincidental? > > There is a sequence of physical events from the

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

On Wednesday, September 26, 2012 8:30:33 PM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: > > On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 2:10 AM, Craig Weinberg > > > wrote: > > >> Metabolism involves replacing parts of cells that break down with > >> inanimate matter from the environment. The cells may or may not have > >> experien

Re: Epiphenomenalism (was: Re: Bruno's Restaurant)

On 9/26/2012 11:29 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 9:24 PM, Stathis Papaioannou mailto:stath...@gmail.com>> wrote: On Tue, Sep 25, 2012 at 3:34 PM, Jason Resch mailto:jasonre...@gmail.com>> wrote: > If it has no causal efficacy, what causes someone to talk about t

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

On 9/27/2012 12:01 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: The problem is the assumption that they can only be one thing if they aren't the other. This kind of dualism is a prejudice of a particular phase of scientific development that is overdue for reconciliation. By framing it as 'understandable vs myster

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 2:01 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: > The problem is the assumption that they can only be one thing if they aren't > the other. This kind of dualism is a prejudice of a particular phase of > scientific development that is overdue for reconciliation. By framing it as > 'understa

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

On 9/27/2012 12:19 AM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 2:01 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: The problem is the assumption that they can only be one thing if they aren't the other. This kind of dualism is a prejudice of a particular phase of scientific development that is overdue f

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

On 9/26/2012 9:27 PM, Stephen P. King wrote: On 9/27/2012 12:19 AM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 2:01 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: The problem is the assumption that they can only be one thing if they aren't the other. This kind of dualism is a prejudice of a particular pha

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 2:27 PM, Stephen P. King wrote: > Craig is pointing out that functions are not separable in the real > world. Nature does not build things in a gears and spring method, every part > of a cell is an integral part of a whole. If we are to replicate the > function of a ce

Re: Epiphenomenalism (was: Re: Bruno's Restaurant)

On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 11:09 PM, Stephen P. King wrote: > On 9/26/2012 11:29 PM, Jason Resch wrote: > > > > On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 9:24 PM, Stathis Papaioannou > wrote: > >> On Tue, Sep 25, 2012 at 3:34 PM, Jason Resch >> wrote: >> >> > If it has no causal efficacy, what causes someone to tal

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

On 9/27/2012 12:39 AM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 2:27 PM, Stephen P. King wrote: Craig is pointing out that functions are not separable in the real world. Nature does not build things in a gears and spring method, every part of a cell is an integral part of a whol

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 11:10 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: > > > On Tuesday, September 25, 2012 7:27:43 PM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: > >> On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 2:20 AM, Craig Weinberg >> wrote: >> >> > Cells may not be only machines though, they are also self-organizing >> life >> > experiences. They

EATR

I'll bet it can eat people too. Just so it can't reproduce (except it can). Brent Well we are one step closer, machines that can metabolize and feed themselves: http://www.robotictechnologyinc.com/index.php/EATR -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "E