Re: Universe as a simulated strange loop

> On 20 May 2020, at 23:24, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: > > > > On 5/20/2020 5:24 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >>> On 18 May 2020, at 21:35, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List >>> >> > wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On 5/18/2020 3:03 AM,

Re: Universe as a simulated strange loop

On 5/20/2020 5:24 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 18 May 2020, at 21:35, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: On 5/18/2020 3:03 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 18 May 2020, at 00:45, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List

Re: Universe as a simulated strange loop

> On 18 May 2020, at 21:35, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: > > > > On 5/18/2020 3:03 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >>> On 18 May 2020, at 00:45, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List >>> >> > wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On 5/17/2020 6:29 AM,

Re: Universe as a simulated strange loop

On 5/18/2020 3:03 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 18 May 2020, at 00:45, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: On 5/17/2020 6:29 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: the appearance of matter as they are explained by the mechanist consciousness flux in

Re: Universe as a simulated strange loop

> On 18 May 2020, at 00:45, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: > > > > On 5/17/2020 6:29 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> the appearance of matter as they are explained by the mechanist >> consciousness flux in arithmetic (itself explained by G and G* and their >> difference). > > You

Re: Universe as a simulated strange loop

On 5/17/2020 6:29 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: the appearance of matter as they are explained by the mechanist consciousness flux in arithmetic (itself explained by G and G* and their difference). You frequently say this, but I have not seen this explanation except in vague hand waving.

Re: Universe as a simulated strange loop

> On 7 May 2020, at 23:00, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: > > > > On 5/7/2020 9:30 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> I can imagine a materialist psychologist claiming that the natural numbers >> are not primitive but explainable by a cultural anthropo-evolutionary >> genetic, say.

Re: Universe as a simulated strange loop

> On 7 May 2020, at 23:14, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: > > > > On 5/7/2020 10:00 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> Existing is when the proposition “ExP(x)” is true in some reality. For >> example Ex(prime(x)) is true in the structure/model (N, 0, s, +, x). > > "In some reality"

Re: Universe as a simulated strange loop

> On 16 May 2020, at 17:19, Telmo Menezes wrote: > > > > Am Do, 7. Mai 2020, um 16:30, schrieb Bruno Marchal: >> >>> On 6 May 2020, at 12:58, Telmo Menezes wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Am Mi, 6. Mai 2020, um 10:41, schrieb Bruno Marchal: > On 5 May 2020, at 21:25, 'Brent Meeker' via

Re: Universe as a simulated strange loop

Am Do, 7. Mai 2020, um 16:30, schrieb Bruno Marchal: > > > On 6 May 2020, at 12:58, Telmo Menezes wrote: > > > > > > > > Am Mi, 6. Mai 2020, um 10:41, schrieb Bruno Marchal: > >> > >>> On 5 May 2020, at 21:25, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On

Re: Universe as a simulated strange loop

> On 8 May 2020, at 11:12, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Thursday, May 7, 2020 at 12:00:30 PM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > Physicists nowadays assumes much more, like ZFC, to get a base in all Hilbert > space, for example. > > Bruno > > > > But in a real operational sense,

Re: Universe as a simulated strange loop

On Thursday, May 7, 2020 at 12:00:30 PM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > > Physicists nowadays assumes much more, like ZFC, to get a base in all > Hilbert space, for example. > > Bruno > > > But in a real operational sense, that is not the case. There is nothing in theoretical physics that

Re: Universe as a simulated strange loop

On 5/7/2020 10:00 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Existing is when the proposition “ExP(x)” is true in some reality. For example Ex(prime(x)) is true in the structure/model (N, 0, s, +, x). "In some reality" completely drains "reality" of all meaning.  It simply means some set of assertions that

Re: Universe as a simulated strange loop

On 5/7/2020 9:30 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: I can imagine a materialist psychologist claiming that the natural numbers are not primitive but explainable by a cultural anthropo-evolutionary genetic, say. But 1) he is confusing the human natural number theories with arithmetic, and 2) he is

Re: Universe as a simulated strange loop

> On 4 May 2020, at 14:15, Lawrence Crowell > wrote: > > On Sunday, May 3, 2020 at 10:14:10 PM UTC-5, smitra wrote: > On 03-05-2020 23:09, Philip Thrift wrote: > > The SSH > > > > https://www.mdpi.com/1099-4300/22/2/247 > > > > > > still

Re: Universe as a simulated strange loop

> On 6 May 2020, at 19:57, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: > > > > On 5/6/2020 3:41 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >>> On 5 May 2020, at 21:25, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On 5/5/2020 4:54 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Physics works very well, to

Re: Universe as a simulated strange loop

> On 6 May 2020, at 12:58, Telmo Menezes wrote: > > > > Am Mi, 6. Mai 2020, um 10:41, schrieb Bruno Marchal: >> >>> On 5 May 2020, at 21:25, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On 5/5/2020 4:54 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Physics works very well, to make

Re: Universe as a simulated strange loop

On 5/6/2020 3:41 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 5 May 2020, at 21:25, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List wrote: On 5/5/2020 4:54 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Physics works very well, to make prediction but as metaphysics, as the Platonist greeks understood, it simply does not work at all. It

Re: Universe as a simulated strange loop

Curious that so many images showed up. I guess this is good at drawing itself in more ways than one. LC On Wednesday, May 6, 2020 at 7:26:00 AM UTC-5, telmo wrote: > > > > Am Mi, 6. Mai 2020, um 11:19, schrieb Lawrence Crowell: > > On Wednesday, May 6, 2020 at 5:28:04 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal

Re: Universe as a simulated strange loop

> On 5 May 2020, at 21:30, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: > > > > On 5/5/2020 5:05 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >>> On 4 May 2020, at 20:47, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List >>> >> > wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On 5/4/2020 6:27 AM,

Re: Universe as a simulated strange loop

Am Mi, 6. Mai 2020, um 10:41, schrieb Bruno Marchal: > > > On 5 May 2020, at 21:25, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > > wrote: > > > > > > > > On 5/5/2020 4:54 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> Physics works very well, to make prediction but as metaphysics, as the > >> Platonist greeks

Re: Universe as a simulated strange loop

> On 5 May 2020, at 21:25, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: > > > > On 5/5/2020 4:54 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> Physics works very well, to make prediction but as metaphysics, as the >> Platonist greeks understood, it simply does not work at all. It uses an >> identity thesis

Re: Universe as a simulated strange loop

> On 5 May 2020, at 17:36, Lawrence Crowell > wrote: > > As a strange loop consciousness may be an illusion having an illusion of > itself. I cannot make sense of this. How could consciousness be an illusion, as an illusion is a conscious expérience. I can imagine myself dreaming that my

Re: Universe as a simulated strange loop

On 5/5/2020 5:05 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 4 May 2020, at 20:47, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: On 5/4/2020 6:27 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: Le lun. 4 mai 2020 à 14:15, Lawrence Crowell >

Re: Universe as a simulated strange loop

On 5/5/2020 4:54 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Physics works very well, to make prediction but as metaphysics, as the Platonist greeks understood, it simply does not work at all. It uses an identity thesis between mind and brain which is easy in one direction, but non-sensical in the other

Re: Universe as a simulated strange loop

As a strange loop consciousness may be an illusion having an illusion of itself. LC On Tuesday, May 5, 2020 at 6:17:29 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 4 May 2020, at 15:00, Telmo Menezes > wrote: > > > > Am Mo, 4. Mai 2020, um 12:15, schrieb Lawrence Crowell: > > On Sunday, May 3, 2020

Re: Universe as a simulated strange loop

> On 4 May 2020, at 20:47, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: > > > > On 5/4/2020 6:27 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: >> >> >> Le lun. 4 mai 2020 à 14:15, Lawrence Crowell >> mailto:goldenfieldquaterni...@gmail.com>> >> a écrit : >> On Sunday, May 3, 2020 at 10:14:10 PM UTC-5,

Re: Universe as a simulated strange loop

> On 4 May 2020, at 19:25, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: > > > > On 5/4/2020 3:17 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >>> On 4 May 2020, at 06:05, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On 5/3/2020 8:14 PM, smitra wrote: On 03-05-2020 23:09, Philip Thrift

Re: Universe as a simulated strange loop

> On 4 May 2020, at 16:39, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > "Self-reference" in programming - going back to Brian Smith's 3-Lisp > >http://www.tark.org/proceedings/tark_mar19_86/p19-smith.pdf > > > - is a bit not-quite-real in

Re: Universe as a simulated strange loop

> On 4 May 2020, at 15:00, Telmo Menezes wrote: > > > > Am Mo, 4. Mai 2020, um 12:15, schrieb Lawrence Crowell: >> On Sunday, May 3, 2020 at 10:14:10 PM UTC-5, smitra wrote: >> On 03-05-2020 23:09, Philip Thrift wrote: >> > The SSH >> > >> > https://www.mdpi.com/1099-4300/22/2/247

Re: Universe as a simulated strange loop

> On 4 May 2020, at 15:27, Quentin Anciaux wrote: > > > > Le lun. 4 mai 2020 à 14:15, Lawrence Crowell > mailto:goldenfieldquaterni...@gmail.com>> > a écrit : > On Sunday, May 3, 2020 at 10:14:10 PM UTC-5, smitra wrote: > On 03-05-2020 23:09, Philip Thrift wrote: > > The SSH > > > >

Re: Universe as a simulated strange loop

On 04-05-2020 06:05, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List wrote: On 5/3/2020 8:14 PM, smitra wrote: On 03-05-2020 23:09, Philip Thrift wrote: The SSH   https://www.mdpi.com/1099-4300/22/2/247 still lies in the "information turn" that plays in physics today.(IT FROM QUBIT, etc.) - a

Re: Universe as a simulated strange loop

On Monday, May 4, 2020 at 1:47:41 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: > > > > On 5/4/2020 6:27 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: > > > > Le lun. 4 mai 2020 à 14:15, Lawrence Crowell > a écrit : > >> On Sunday, May 3, 2020 at 10:14:10 PM UTC-5, smitra wrote: >>> >>> On 03-05-2020 23:09, Philip Thrift wrote: >>> >

Re: Universe as a simulated strange loop

On 5/4/2020 6:27 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: Le lun. 4 mai 2020 à 14:15, Lawrence Crowell > a écrit : On Sunday, May 3, 2020 at 10:14:10 PM UTC-5, smitra wrote: On 03-05-2020 23:09, Philip Thrift wrote: > The SSH >

Re: Universe as a simulated strange loop

On 5/4/2020 3:17 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 4 May 2020, at 06:05, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List wrote: On 5/3/2020 8:14 PM, smitra wrote: On 03-05-2020 23:09, Philip Thrift wrote: The SSH https://www.mdpi.com/1099-4300/22/2/247 still lies in the "information turn" that

Re: Universe as a simulated strange loop

"Self-reference" in programming - going back to Brian Smith's 3-Lisp http://www.tark.org/proceedings/tark_mar19_86/p19-smith.pdf - is a bit not-quite-real in the context of "The Self" of consciousness (self) realism (Galen Strawson).

Re: Universe as a simulated strange loop

Self-reference is a case where the computation is not complete or can't be quantified. We might then consider consciousness as a strange-loop where the process can't be quantified, or any attempt to do so will always exceed the capacity of the processor. LC On Mon, May 4, 2020 at 8:00 AM Telmo

Re: Universe as a simulated strange loop

Le lun. 4 mai 2020 à 14:15, Lawrence Crowell < goldenfieldquaterni...@gmail.com> a écrit : > On Sunday, May 3, 2020 at 10:14:10 PM UTC-5, smitra wrote: >> >> On 03-05-2020 23:09, Philip Thrift wrote: >> > The SSH >> > >> > https://www.mdpi.com/1099-4300/22/2/247 >> > >> > still lies in the

Re: Universe as a simulated strange loop

Am Mo, 4. Mai 2020, um 12:15, schrieb Lawrence Crowell: > On Sunday, May 3, 2020 at 10:14:10 PM UTC-5, smitra wrote: >> On 03-05-2020 23:09, Philip Thrift wrote: >> > The SSH >> > >> > https://www.mdpi.com/1099-4300/22/2/247 >> > >> > still lies in the "information turn" that plays in

Re: Universe as a simulated strange loop

On Sunday, May 3, 2020 at 10:14:10 PM UTC-5, smitra wrote: > > On 03-05-2020 23:09, Philip Thrift wrote: > > The SSH > > > > https://www.mdpi.com/1099-4300/22/2/247 > > > > still lies in the "information turn" that plays in physics today.(IT > > FROM QUBIT, etc.) - a rejection pf

Re: Universe as a simulated strange loop

> On 4 May 2020, at 06:05, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: > > > > On 5/3/2020 8:14 PM, smitra wrote: >> On 03-05-2020 23:09, Philip Thrift wrote: >>> The SSH >>> >>> https://www.mdpi.com/1099-4300/22/2/247 >>> >>> still lies in the "information turn" that plays in

Re: Universe as a simulated strange loop

> On 4 May 2020, at 05:14, smitra wrote: > > On 03-05-2020 23:09, Philip Thrift wrote: >> The SSH >> https://www.mdpi.com/1099-4300/22/2/247 >> still lies in the "information turn" that plays in physics today.(IT >> FROM QUBIT, etc.) - a rejection pf materialism in favor of idealism. >>

Re: Universe as a simulated strange loop

On 5/3/2020 8:14 PM, smitra wrote: On 03-05-2020 23:09, Philip Thrift wrote: The SSH   https://www.mdpi.com/1099-4300/22/2/247 still lies in the "information turn" that plays in physics today.(IT FROM QUBIT, etc.) - a rejection pf materialism in favor of idealism. It is more

Re: Universe as a simulated strange loop

On 03-05-2020 23:09, Philip Thrift wrote: The SSH https://www.mdpi.com/1099-4300/22/2/247 still lies in the "information turn" that plays in physics today.(IT FROM QUBIT, etc.) - a rejection pf materialism in favor of idealism. It is more interesting to me to stick to the vocabulary of

Re: Universe as a simulated strange loop

The SSH https://www.mdpi.com/1099-4300/22/2/247 still lies in the "information turn" that plays in physics today.(*it from qubit*, etc.) - a rejection pf materialism in favor of idealism. It is more interesting to me to stick to the vocabulary of materialist* physics - particles,

Re: Universe as a simulated strange loop

I downloaded this. I have communicated with Klee Irwin some years ago. He might be a bit of a modern day Tesla; there is evidence of some brilliance, but also a bit of madness. He has promoted a line of bogus supplements and other things. I have on FQXi an essay now on the possible role of

Re: Universe as a simulated strange loop

> On 3 May 2020, at 05:02, Russell Standish wrote: > > Not sure if this paper has been mentioned here, but it seems quite apt > to our discussions. It appears concordant with my ideas in "Theory of > Nothing", also Bruno's AUDA and Brent's virtuous circles. > >