subject:"\[FairfieldLife\] Re\: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness.."

Tom (anonyff replied):

Sorry for the *tone* of my previous post, although I did mean it, in
that moment, exactly as I said it.

FYI I have been reading and contributing to FF LIfe for at least 2
years and probably more like 3+ (how long has it been around?). I just
changed my name and use the anonyff handle because I ended up
embarrassed by some of the things I said as myself. 

I'm willing to acknowlege that at this moment in time, I am
experiencing a *limited* very bound version of myself and from there
comes my expression of hostility towards those who claim sometning
different. (Envy perhaps?)

I have had the experience, over the long years, of becoming very
unboounded and, as it says in the 9th mandala, "liquid, loveable, and
wise." It never lasted more than maybe five minutes. During those
moments I experienced what I can only describe as an infinite flow, a
knowledge that I was infinite, eternal and unbounded. 

Thanks for your generous reply.

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,
"tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Anonyff writes: snipped
> Personally, I think there are as many forms of enlightenment as there
> are people, I think that people still get angry, hungrly, lonely,
> tired, irritable, sick, and that they act just as spontaneously as
> anyone/everyone else and that all this constant intellectualizing is a
> form of severe mental masturbation.
> 
> Tom T:
> Well not really intellectualizing just trying to answer a question
> that seemed to have been raised. In the past I have also posted as YES
> to all the above things you have posted above minus the
> intellectualizing and mental masturbation comment. If you come in to
> the middle of a movie you don't always know all the previous dialog. I
> don't repeat what I may have posted two years ago. To do so would make
> this a very cumbersome exchange. All I am posting now is a
> continuation of everything I posted before. I don't see how you can
> expect to understand everything that goes on here when you pick it up
> midstream.  The relative body still has all the foibles of a relative
> body. On the other hand is an inner knowingness of all is perfect in
> the flow of the NOW. This is how it is for me. I am sharing only
> because it might just open some others to the possibilities. Yours may
> be totally different. Some here may have a similar view and/or
> understanding that is not complete for them. Occasionally some here
> seem to connect with some of my experiences/understandings/knowingness
> that has increased knowingness for them. My favorite way of explaining
> it is to think of a Baskins and Robbins store with 6 billion/trillion
> flavors. You CAN have it your way, Another way to say it is each human
> has a truly unique set of DNA how could it not be different. TomT
>

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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

2006-03-03 Thread tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis

Anonyff writes: snipped
Personally, I think there are as many forms of enlightenment as there
are people, I think that people still get angry, hungrly, lonely,
tired, irritable, sick, and that they act just as spontaneously as
anyone/everyone else and that all this constant intellectualizing is a
form of severe mental masturbation.

Tom T:
Well not really intellectualizing just trying to answer a question
that seemed to have been raised. In the past I have also posted as YES
to all the above things you have posted above minus the
intellectualizing and mental masturbation comment. If you come in to
the middle of a movie you don't always know all the previous dialog. I
don't repeat what I may have posted two years ago. To do so would make
this a very cumbersome exchange. All I am posting now is a
continuation of everything I posted before. I don't see how you can
expect to understand everything that goes on here when you pick it up
midstream.  The relative body still has all the foibles of a relative
body. On the other hand is an inner knowingness of all is perfect in
the flow of the NOW. This is how it is for me. I am sharing only
because it might just open some others to the possibilities. Yours may
be totally different. Some here may have a similar view and/or
understanding that is not complete for them. Occasionally some here
seem to connect with some of my experiences/understandings/knowingness
that has increased knowingness for them. My favorite way of explaining
it is to think of a Baskins and Robbins store with 6 billion/trillion
flavors. You CAN have it your way, Another way to say it is each human
has a truly unique set of DNA how could it not be different. TomT






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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Gillam" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> --- sparaig wrote:
> >
> > --- Gillam wrote:
> > >
> > > --- tom traynor wrote:
> > > >
> > > > What ever they attempt is easy and
> > > > simple as it just flows. How it unfolds is not revelant.
> > > 
> > > So I may need to change my belief that Maharishi is 
> > > acting the way any entrepreneur would, expecting 
> > > his products and services to be lapped up by a hungry 
> > > public. If MMY were merely motivated by the entrepreneur's 
> > > certainty that his offering is great, he'd have given up when 
> > > it became evident that people didn't care. Instead, MMY has 
> > > all these plans whose unfolding is irrelevant, so he rolls out 
> > > plan after plan with no thought to actually making them happen.
> > 
> > Actually, the most sucessful entrepreneurs (unlike any ole one) 
do just 
> > that: throw out countless ideas until one "sticks."
> 
> What I'm taking away from this conversation is, entrepreneurs 
> want their enterprises to succeed, but the enlightened just act, 
> without attachment to the result. 
> 
> I was willing to ascribe Maharishi's cheerful pursuit of bad ideas 
> to the this-idea-can't-miss attitude I've seen in people launching 
> new products and services. I was incined to equate his behavior 
> to that I've seen in ordinary mortals, if you will -- the 
unenlightened.
> But now that I think about it -- or better yet, read other people's 
> thoughts, saving me the trouble of thinking on my own -- 
> Maharishi's steady supply of unrealistic plans and goofy optimism 
> sounds more like that of an enlightened person flowing with the 
> idea du jour than that of an entrepreneur lusting for the payoff.
>

There's nothing unenlightened about working as hard as possible to 
fulfill a plan or goal. MMY seems to apply unequal measures of hard 
work to various plans or goals he comes up with. This may be due to 
some intellectual evaluation of each plan/goal, or due to some 
intuitive "go with the flow" thing, or perhaps, a bit of both.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Gillam" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
> --- sparaig wrote:
> >
> > --- Gillam wrote:
> > >
> > > --- tom traynor wrote:
> > > >
> > > > What ever they attempt is easy and
> > > > simple as it just flows. How it unfolds is not revelant.
> > > 
> > > So I may need to change my belief that Maharishi is 
> > > acting the way any entrepreneur would, expecting 
> > > his products and services to be lapped up by a hungry 
> > > public. If MMY were merely motivated by the entrepreneur's 
> > > certainty that his offering is great, he'd have given up when 
> > > it became evident that people didn't care. Instead, MMY has 
> > > all these plans whose unfolding is irrelevant, so he rolls out 
> > > plan after plan with no thought to actually making them happen.
> > 
> > Actually, the most sucessful entrepreneurs (unlike any ole one) do
just 
> > that: throw out countless ideas until one "sticks."
> 
> What I'm taking away from this conversation is, entrepreneurs 
> want their enterprises to succeed, but the enlightened just act, 
> without attachment to the result. 
> 
> I was willing to ascribe Maharishi's cheerful pursuit of bad ideas 
> to the this-idea-can't-miss attitude I've seen in people launching 
> new products and services. I was incined to equate his behavior 
> to that I've seen in ordinary mortals, if you will -- the unenlightened.
> But now that I think about it -- or better yet, read other people's 
> thoughts, saving me the trouble of thinking on my own -- 
> Maharishi's steady supply of unrealistic plans and goofy optimism 
> sounds more like that of an enlightened person flowing with the 
> idea du jour than that of an entrepreneur lusting for the payoff.
>

Well, that is one way to look at it, probably more *enlightened* than
my view. 

I don't think Maharishi acts w/o attachement. I don't think all his
damning of democracy, acting petulant when world leaders won't listen
to his ideas, etc. are the acts of someone who is "non-attached." 

IMO this whole notion of non-attachment is merely a concept and who
knows if anyone here truly even understands it and even if they could,
could they really explain it in such a way that the listener would a)
be able to truly grok it and b) not be influenced by it to such a
degree that they would try emulating this non-attached state thinking
that by acting non-attached they actually were non-attached?

It all sounds like some ego-Olympics where those who think they get it
get to sound off and aggrandize themselves v. simply living the life.
>From my perspective, people living from this level would be much
simpler than all of what goes on here. 

But that may be/is just my own viewpoint.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

--- sparaig wrote:
>
> --- Gillam wrote:
> >
> > --- tom traynor wrote:
> > >
> > > What ever they attempt is easy and
> > > simple as it just flows. How it unfolds is not revelant.
> > 
> > So I may need to change my belief that Maharishi is 
> > acting the way any entrepreneur would, expecting 
> > his products and services to be lapped up by a hungry 
> > public. If MMY were merely motivated by the entrepreneur's 
> > certainty that his offering is great, he'd have given up when 
> > it became evident that people didn't care. Instead, MMY has 
> > all these plans whose unfolding is irrelevant, so he rolls out 
> > plan after plan with no thought to actually making them happen.
> 
> Actually, the most sucessful entrepreneurs (unlike any ole one) do just 
> that: throw out countless ideas until one "sticks."

What I'm taking away from this conversation is, entrepreneurs 
want their enterprises to succeed, but the enlightened just act, 
without attachment to the result. 

I was willing to ascribe Maharishi's cheerful pursuit of bad ideas 
to the this-idea-can't-miss attitude I've seen in people launching 
new products and services. I was incined to equate his behavior 
to that I've seen in ordinary mortals, if you will -- the unenlightened.
But now that I think about it -- or better yet, read other people's 
thoughts, saving me the trouble of thinking on my own -- 
Maharishi's steady supply of unrealistic plans and goofy optimism 
sounds more like that of an enlightened person flowing with the 
idea du jour than that of an entrepreneur lusting for the payoff.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "markmeredith2002" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend"  wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Gillam" 
 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > --- tom traynor wrote:
> > > >
> > > > What ever they attempt is easy and
> > > > simple as it just flows. How it unfolds is not revelant.
> > > 
> > > So I may need to change my belief that Maharishi is 
> > > acting the way any entrepreneur would, expecting 
> > > his products and services to be lapped up by a hungry 
> > > public. If MMY were merely motivated by the entrepreneur's 
> > > certainty that his offering is great, he'd have given up when 
> > > it became evident that people didn't care. Instead, MMY has 
> > > all these plans whose unfolding is irrelevant, so he rolls out 
> > > plan after plan with no thought to actually making them happen.
> > 
> > I don't think the first part of this last sentence
> > necessarily implies the second part.
> 
> The pundit project was successful - it was the focal pt for raising
> well over $200 million over the yrs.  Why bother delivering the
> product if you can keep raising capital over and over with the same
> business plan?
>

The project was only partially successful. Thousands of pundits were 
trained, and millions of dollars worth of buildings built. Various 
issues created a situatino where the final goal was never realized.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Gillam" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> --- tom traynor wrote:
> >
> > What ever they attempt is easy and
> > simple as it just flows. How it unfolds is not revelant.
> 
> So I may need to change my belief that Maharishi is 
> acting the way any entrepreneur would, expecting 
> his products and services to be lapped up by a hungry 
> public. If MMY were merely motivated by the entrepreneur's 
> certainty that his offering is great, he'd have given up when 
> it became evident that people didn't care. Instead, MMY has 
> all these plans whose unfolding is irrelevant, so he rolls out 
> plan after plan with no thought to actually making them happen.
>

Actually, the most sucessful entrepreneurs (unlike any ole one) do just 
that: throw out countless ideas until one "sticks."






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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

--- In 
FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> judy writes: snipped
> And if he didn't, was it because the state of 
> enlightenment makes everything seem easy and simple
> *when it really isn't*?  Is it possible that the
> "easy and simple" sense applies on some level other
> than the practical one of achieving a goal, but
> that the person who is enlightened may incorrectly
> think it applies to achieving the goal?
> 
> TomT:
> The easy and simple sense applies only to the awake one. What ever
> comes or goes is in the relative. What ever they attempt is easy and
> simple as it just flows. How it unfolds is not revelant. One is only
> in control of ones action never the fruit. One is never a failure
> since one attempted to do what the next obvious thing to do seemed
> apparent. Once the thought appears in the awareness the awake one 
has
> the entire range of the act in the relative world available in their
> awareness at the exact instance of the thought. That is why it 
appears
> that an awake one has no desires. The full appreceation of the 
thought
> includes the fulfilment of the completion. In other words full
> knowledge of the act in the relative and the full appreciation of 
the
> outcome. Kind of neat actually. Desires are now seen as 
appreciation.
> No conflict, no unfulfilled desires, no problem. See the thought, do
> what is obvious, move on to the next obvious thing to do. TOm T
>

Of course, is it always obvious, even to the awake one, what the next 
thing to do is? MMY, when he first made the statement "Damn 
Democracy," sounded taken aback at his own words.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "anonyff"  wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,
> > "tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis"
> >  wrote:
> > >
> > > judy writes: snipped
> > > And if he didn't, was it because the state of 
> > > enlightenment makes everything seem easy and simple
> > > *when it really isn't*?  Is it possible that the
> > > "easy and simple" sense applies on some level other
> > > than the practical one of achieving a goal, but
> > > that the person who is enlightened may incorrectly
> > > think it applies to achieving the goal?
> > > 
> > > TomT:
> > > The easy and simple sense applies only to the awake one. What 
ever
> > > comes or goes is in the relative. What ever they attempt is 
easy and
> > > simple as it just flows. How it unfolds is not revelant. One 
is only
> > > in control of ones action never the fruit. One is never a 
failure
> > > since one attempted to do what the next obvious thing to do 
seemed
> > > apparent. Once the thought appears in the awareness the awake 
one has
> > > the entire range of the act in the relative world available in 
their
> > > awareness at the exact instance of the thought. That is why it 
appears
> > > that an awake one has no desires. 
> > 
> > I'm sorry, with all due respect I'm going to take great 
exception to
> > this answer and to all answers that seem to reduce the
> > life/mindset/emotional state of the "awake ones" to these kinds 
of pat
> > answers. 
> > 
> > Years ago, when channeling was in, and everyone was running 
first to
> > see Ron Scolastico, then everyone was channeling, these are the 
kinds
> > of answers I used to hear all the time-everyone sounded the 
f***ing
> > same in the way they were talking about things. You could always 
tell
> > a) when someone had been to Ron Scolastico b) had become a so-
called
> > channeler.
> > 
> > Personally, I think there are as many forms of enlightenment as 
there
> > are people, I think that people still get angry, hungrly, lonely,
> > tired, irritable, sick, and that they act just as spontaneously 
as
> > anyone/everyone else and that all this constant 
intellectualizing is a
> > form of severe mental masturbation.
> > 
> > What ever happened to meditate and act? 
> > 
> > Anonyff
> 
> Yes Anonyff there is some sense of limitation here just as you 
describe. Half digested Tolle 
> sprinkled with some Byron Katy and some Ramana on the side served 
fast food style. 
> Repeat as necessary.
> 
> It's givving me heartburn, it sure ain't shaktipat.
>
Ha-Ha-HA! Yeah, believe what HE says! All is Lost! Kali's lap dog 
returns!!! Waking State Incarnate! 





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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

2006-03-03 Thread a_non_moose_ff

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "anonyff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,
> "tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis"
>  wrote:
> >
> > judy writes: snipped
> > And if he didn't, was it because the state of 
> > enlightenment makes everything seem easy and simple
> > *when it really isn't*?  Is it possible that the
> > "easy and simple" sense applies on some level other
> > than the practical one of achieving a goal, but
> > that the person who is enlightened may incorrectly
> > think it applies to achieving the goal?
> > 
> > TomT:
> > The easy and simple sense applies only to the awake one. What ever
> > comes or goes is in the relative. What ever they attempt is easy and
> > simple as it just flows. How it unfolds is not revelant. One is only
> > in control of ones action never the fruit. One is never a failure
> > since one attempted to do what the next obvious thing to do seemed
> > apparent. Once the thought appears in the awareness the awake one has
> > the entire range of the act in the relative world available in their
> > awareness at the exact instance of the thought. That is why it appears
> > that an awake one has no desires. 
> 
> I'm sorry, with all due respect I'm going to take great exception to
> this answer and to all answers that seem to reduce the
> life/mindset/emotional state of the "awake ones" to these kinds of pat
> answers. 
> 
> Years ago, when channeling was in, and everyone was running first to
> see Ron Scolastico, then everyone was channeling, these are the kinds
> of answers I used to hear all the time-everyone sounded the f***ing
> same in the way they were talking about things. You could always tell
> a) when someone had been to Ron Scolastico b) had become a so-called
> channeler.
> 
> Personally, I think there are as many forms of enlightenment as there
> are people, I think that people still get angry, hungrly, lonely,
> tired, irritable, sick, and that they act just as spontaneously as
> anyone/everyone else and that all this constant intellectualizing is a
> form of severe mental masturbation.
> 
> What ever happened to meditate and act? 
> 
> Anonyff

Yes Anonyff there is some sense of limitation here just as you describe. Half 
digested Tolle 
sprinkled with some Byron Katy and some Ramana on the side served fast food 
style. 
Repeat as necessary.

It's givving me heartburn, it sure ain't shaktipat.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

Personally, and in all seriousness, I still believe it is ALL 
conjecture and overall, I'm sorry I spent so much of my life 
believing in this stuff.




--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "anonyff"  wrote:
> >
> > 
> > I'm sorry, with all due respect I'm going to take great exception 
> to
> > this answer and to all answers that seem to reduce the
> > life/mindset/emotional state of the "awake ones" to these kinds 
of 
> pat
> > answers. 
> > 
> 
> 
> That's kind of like taking exception to the fact that out of six 
> billion humans on this planet, if they were asked to generally 
> describe themselves, most would include in their description that 
> they had two arms and two legs...
> 

> Also, keep in mind that Tom is just talking about the *inner* state 
> of the awakened person. As we have read, heard, quoted and thought 
> about, at least a zillion times, from the Gita, it says the state 
of 
> consciousness of a person can't be determined by their outside 
> actions.
> 
> Yep, still true. 
> 
> Also, from waking state, or non-awakened state, there is no way to 
> intellectually `get' this sense of true equanimity that Tom 
> describes. It can only be understood as mood-making from waking 
> state. The mind is not permanently satisfied if we are not Awake. 
> Therefore the only way it understands equanimity is to assume a 
> false state of evenness, because it isn't settled. The mind in 
> Unawake state is still at odds with itself.
> 
> So Tom isn't talking about external actions or fake evenness, he's 
> just stating the obvious about being Awake. Nothing more than ever 
> changing perfect coordination between the person and their ever 
> changing environment. 
>  
> > Personally, I think there are as many forms of enlightenment as 
> there
> > are people, I think that people still get angry, hungrly, lonely,
> > tired, irritable, sick, and that they act just as spontaneously as
> > anyone/everyone else
> 
> Yep, diversity continues, with no attempt at stopping it, 
> categorizing it, slowing it down or thinking about it too much.
> 
>  and that all this constant intellectualizing is a
> > form of severe mental masturbation.
> > 
> > What ever happened to meditate and act? 
> 
> I give up, what?
> > 
> > Anonyff
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > The full appreceation of the thought
> > > includes the fulfilment of the completion. In other words full
> > > knowledge of the act in the relative and the full appreciation 
> of the
> > > outcome. Kind of neat actually. Desires are now seen as 
> appreciation.
> > > No conflict, no unfulfilled desires, no problem. See the 
> thought, do
> > > what is obvious, move on to the next obvious thing to do. TOm T
> > >
> >
>







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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "anonyff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> I'm sorry, with all due respect I'm going to take great exception 
to
> this answer and to all answers that seem to reduce the
> life/mindset/emotional state of the "awake ones" to these kinds of 
pat
> answers. 
> 

That's kind of like taking exception to the fact that out of six 
billion humans on this planet, if they were asked to generally 
describe themselves, most would include in their description that 
they had two arms and two legs...

Also, keep in mind that Tom is just talking about the *inner* state 
of the awakened person. As we have read, heard, quoted and thought 
about, at least a zillion times, from the Gita, it says the state of 
consciousness of a person can't be determined by their outside 
actions.

Yep, still true. 

Also, from waking state, or non-awakened state, there is no way to 
intellectually `get' this sense of true equanimity that Tom 
describes. It can only be understood as mood-making from waking 
state. The mind is not permanently satisfied if we are not Awake. 
Therefore the only way it understands equanimity is to assume a 
false state of evenness, because it isn't settled. The mind in 
Unawake state is still at odds with itself.

So Tom isn't talking about external actions or fake evenness, he's 
just stating the obvious about being Awake. Nothing more than ever 
changing perfect coordination between the person and their ever 
changing environment. 

> Personally, I think there are as many forms of enlightenment as 
there
> are people, I think that people still get angry, hungrly, lonely,
> tired, irritable, sick, and that they act just as spontaneously as
> anyone/everyone else

Yep, diversity continues, with no attempt at stopping it, 
categorizing it, slowing it down or thinking about it too much.

 and that all this constant intellectualizing is a
> form of severe mental masturbation.
> 
> What ever happened to meditate and act? 

I give up, what?
> 
> Anonyff
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The full appreceation of the thought
> > includes the fulfilment of the completion. In other words full
> > knowledge of the act in the relative and the full appreciation 
of the
> > outcome. Kind of neat actually. Desires are now seen as 
appreciation.
> > No conflict, no unfulfilled desires, no problem. See the 
thought, do
> > what is obvious, move on to the next obvious thing to do. TOm T
> >
>

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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,
"tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> judy writes: snipped
> And if he didn't, was it because the state of 
> enlightenment makes everything seem easy and simple
> *when it really isn't*?  Is it possible that the
> "easy and simple" sense applies on some level other
> than the practical one of achieving a goal, but
> that the person who is enlightened may incorrectly
> think it applies to achieving the goal?
> 
> TomT:
> The easy and simple sense applies only to the awake one. What ever
> comes or goes is in the relative. What ever they attempt is easy and
> simple as it just flows. How it unfolds is not revelant. One is only
> in control of ones action never the fruit. One is never a failure
> since one attempted to do what the next obvious thing to do seemed
> apparent. Once the thought appears in the awareness the awake one has
> the entire range of the act in the relative world available in their
> awareness at the exact instance of the thought. That is why it appears
> that an awake one has no desires. 

I'm sorry, with all due respect I'm going to take great exception to
this answer and to all answers that seem to reduce the
life/mindset/emotional state of the "awake ones" to these kinds of pat
answers. 

Years ago, when channeling was in, and everyone was running first to
see Ron Scolastico, then everyone was channeling, these are the kinds
of answers I used to hear all the time-everyone sounded the f***ing
same in the way they were talking about things. You could always tell
a) when someone had been to Ron Scolastico b) had become a so-called
channeler.

Personally, I think there are as many forms of enlightenment as there
are people, I think that people still get angry, hungrly, lonely,
tired, irritable, sick, and that they act just as spontaneously as
anyone/everyone else and that all this constant intellectualizing is a
form of severe mental masturbation.

What ever happened to meditate and act? 

Anonyff

The full appreceation of the thought
> includes the fulfilment of the completion. In other words full
> knowledge of the act in the relative and the full appreciation of the
> outcome. Kind of neat actually. Desires are now seen as appreciation.
> No conflict, no unfulfilled desires, no problem. See the thought, do
> what is obvious, move on to the next obvious thing to do. TOm T
>

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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Gillam"  
> wrote:
> >
> > --- tom traynor wrote:
> > >
> > > What ever they attempt is easy and
> > > simple as it just flows. How it unfolds is not revelant.
> > 
> > So I may need to change my belief that Maharishi is 
> > acting the way any entrepreneur would, expecting 
> > his products and services to be lapped up by a hungry 
> > public. If MMY were merely motivated by the entrepreneur's 
> > certainty that his offering is great, he'd have given up when 
> > it became evident that people didn't care. Instead, MMY has 
> > all these plans whose unfolding is irrelevant, so he rolls out 
> > plan after plan with no thought to actually making them happen.
> 
> I don't think the first part of this last sentence
> necessarily implies the second part.

Neither the second part of the first sentence.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

2006-03-03 Thread markmeredith2002

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Gillam"  
> wrote:
> >
> > --- tom traynor wrote:
> > >
> > > What ever they attempt is easy and
> > > simple as it just flows. How it unfolds is not revelant.
> > 
> > So I may need to change my belief that Maharishi is 
> > acting the way any entrepreneur would, expecting 
> > his products and services to be lapped up by a hungry 
> > public. If MMY were merely motivated by the entrepreneur's 
> > certainty that his offering is great, he'd have given up when 
> > it became evident that people didn't care. Instead, MMY has 
> > all these plans whose unfolding is irrelevant, so he rolls out 
> > plan after plan with no thought to actually making them happen.
> 
> I don't think the first part of this last sentence
> necessarily implies the second part.

The pundit project was successful - it was the focal pt for raising
well over $200 million over the yrs.  Why bother delivering the
product if you can keep raising capital over and over with the same
business plan?

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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

2006-03-03 Thread authfriend

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Gillam" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> --- tom traynor wrote:
> >
> > What ever they attempt is easy and
> > simple as it just flows. How it unfolds is not revelant.
> 
> So I may need to change my belief that Maharishi is 
> acting the way any entrepreneur would, expecting 
> his products and services to be lapped up by a hungry 
> public. If MMY were merely motivated by the entrepreneur's 
> certainty that his offering is great, he'd have given up when 
> it became evident that people didn't care. Instead, MMY has 
> all these plans whose unfolding is irrelevant, so he rolls out 
> plan after plan with no thought to actually making them happen.

I don't think the first part of this last sentence
necessarily implies the second part.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

--- tom traynor wrote:
>
> What ever they attempt is easy and
> simple as it just flows. How it unfolds is not revelant.

So I may need to change my belief that Maharishi is 
acting the way any entrepreneur would, expecting 
his products and services to be lapped up by a hungry 
public. If MMY were merely motivated by the entrepreneur's 
certainty that his offering is great, he'd have given up when 
it became evident that people didn't care. Instead, MMY has 
all these plans whose unfolding is irrelevant, so he rolls out 
plan after plan with no thought to actually making them happen.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> So I guess that's another question: Did he or didn't
> he know how tough it was going to be?
> 
> And if he didn't, was it because the state of 
> enlightenment makes everything seem easy and simple
> *when it really isn't*?  Is it possible that the
> "easy and simple" sense applies on some level other
> than the practical one of achieving a goal, but
> that the person who is enlightened may incorrectly
> think it applies to achieving the goal?
> 
> *Action* in enlightenment is presumably effortless,
> in other words, but that doesn't necessarily mean
> that a *given* course of action is going to easily
> reach the goal.
> 
> I suppose it goes back to the question of whether
> what the enlightened person thinks is the goal is
> the same as the goal nature "has in mind."
>
I'd say that overall, life after awakening is not as fractured and 
fractious as it was before, so there is more a sense of ease and 
confidence that desires will be satisfied, one way or the other. The 
rigidity of the unawakened mind is an indication that it is 
unsatisfied and so must achieve specific things in very specific 
ways in order to meet its self-defined criteria for satisfaction.

The awakened mind on the other hand, has paradoxically many more 
resources at its disposal, and although there isn't the 'make it or 
break it' mentality applied to achieving desires, due to the self-
sufficent nature of the mind, desires are more often achieved than 
not.





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..

2006-03-03 Thread Vaj

On Mar 3, 2006, at 12:17 PM, Patrick Gillam wrote:--- Vaj wrote: In the 80's, I was invited by three close friends--an old TM teacher, an MIU grad and a Sidha, to confront Robin Woodsworth Carlsen who was then living in an apartment in Washington DC. It was actually my first time at debunking a claim of enlightenment So Vaj, you've had other opportunities to debunk claims of enlightenment? Kind of an interesting sideline. You know after I wrote that I realized debunking was probably a bad word.My friends had invited me along simply because they wanted me there in case he tried to pull anything. So I really went along simply as a friend and really, as an observer. However once we were there and started talking to Robin a certain feeling started to develop that was unmistakeable. It wasn't until the very end, spontaneously, I just did it. Still don't think he knew what happened, but for all of us there, it was sufficient. Quite honestly this type of thing is really uncharacteristic of me, I'm not typically one for barnstorming zen tactics. But for my friends it was like being lifted from a curse and we all felt better just having a clear perspective on Robin Woodsworth Carlsen.Honestly I think claims of enlightenment debunk themselves.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

2006-03-03 Thread tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis

judy writes: snipped
And if he didn't, was it because the state of 
enlightenment makes everything seem easy and simple
*when it really isn't*?  Is it possible that the
"easy and simple" sense applies on some level other
than the practical one of achieving a goal, but
that the person who is enlightened may incorrectly
think it applies to achieving the goal?

TomT:
The easy and simple sense applies only to the awake one. What ever
comes or goes is in the relative. What ever they attempt is easy and
simple as it just flows. How it unfolds is not revelant. One is only
in control of ones action never the fruit. One is never a failure
since one attempted to do what the next obvious thing to do seemed
apparent. Once the thought appears in the awareness the awake one has
the entire range of the act in the relative world available in their
awareness at the exact instance of the thought. That is why it appears
that an awake one has no desires. The full appreceation of the thought
includes the fulfilment of the completion. In other words full
knowledge of the act in the relative and the full appreciation of the
outcome. Kind of neat actually. Desires are now seen as appreciation.
No conflict, no unfulfilled desires, no problem. See the thought, do
what is obvious, move on to the next obvious thing to do. TOm T 






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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Gillam" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> --- Vaj wrote:
> >
> > In the 80's, I was invited by three close friends--an old 
> > TM teacher, an MIU grad and a Sidha, to confront Robin 
> > Woodsworth Carlsen who was then living in an apartment 
> > in Washington DC. It was actually my first time at 
> > debunking a claim of enlightenment
> 
> So Vaj, you've had other opportunities to debunk claims 
> of enlightenment? Kind of an interesting sideline.

Who ya gonna call?  BodhiBusters.

:-)

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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..

--- Vaj wrote:
>
> In the 80's, I was invited by three close friends--an old TM teacher,  
> an MIU grad and a Sidha, to confront Robin Woodsworth Carlsen who was  
> then living in an apartment in Washington DC. It was actually my  
> first time at debunking a claim of enlightenment

So Vaj, you've had other opportunities to debunk claims 
of enlightenment? Kind of an interesting sideline.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

--- Vaj wrote:
> 
> Gillam wrote:
> 
> > --- Vaj wrote:
> >>
> >> dying is easier than I thought :-)
> >
> > Now there's an ability that may come in handy someday.
> 
> All the better reason to practice dying now :-).

I've pursued enlightenment in hopes it would make life 
easier. Funny that its ultimate payoff may be to make 
death easier.

Too bad I'm not allowed to give TM intro lectures anymore. 
I could have added that benefit.

P.S.  When I asked my sister what benefits she was noticing 
after doing TM for three months, she said, "Well, my death 
wish isn't as strong as it used to be."

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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

2006-03-03 Thread authfriend

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend"  
> wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin"  
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend"  
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > 
> > > > Is that sense of "easy and simple" ever misleading?
> > > > I'm thinking of MMY, and wondering whether that's why
> > > > he assumed most everyone in the world would take to 
> > > > TM as soon as they heard about it, that governments
> > > > would leap at it, and so on.
> > > >
> > > are you talking about the process of awakening or the awakened
> > > state itself?
> > 
> > I mean, assuming MMY is awakened and everything seems
> > easy and simple to him, could that sense have been
> > what misled him to think it would be easy and simple
> > for him to convince most everyone in the world to take
> > up TM?
> 
> Personally I think it was several elements that led him to believe 
> and proclaim such things:
> 1. He saw a need for the world that could be met by his capability, 
> to essentially reinvent meditation as something practical for the 
> householder.
> 2. As with any endeavor that speaks to our heart, he wanted as many 
> as possible to take it up.
> 3. Since the technique is easy to learn and practice he saw it as 
> easily accepted.
> 4. His vision was to benefit the whole world, not a subset of it.
> 
> As to whether he misjudged the difficulty of the task, I doubt it. 
> The goal was initially to spread TM to one percent of the world's 
> population, because that is what he thought would enlighten, or 
> awaken, the world. 
> 
> As the task progressed, so did the dynamics; the interplay between 
> the silence being awakened and brought into the world, by all our 
> tiny little meditating brains. So his formulas changed, as the 
> world changed.
> 
> Perhaps your question is whether or not he failed in his mission to 
> enlighten the world.

No, I was simply wondering whether the "easy and simple"
sense could be misleading.

Whether or not in retrospect some time hence it will be
seen that MMY succeeded in his mission, it does seem
clear that he underestimated the difficulty of the task,
at least from the way he talked about it.  Maybe he
knew all along it wasn't going to be as easy as he made
it sound.

So I guess that's another question: Did he or didn't
he know how tough it was going to be?

And if he didn't, was it because the state of 
enlightenment makes everything seem easy and simple
*when it really isn't*?  Is it possible that the
"easy and simple" sense applies on some level other
than the practical one of achieving a goal, but
that the person who is enlightened may incorrectly
think it applies to achieving the goal?

*Action* in enlightenment is presumably effortless,
in other words, but that doesn't necessarily mean
that a *given* course of action is going to easily
reach the goal.

I suppose it goes back to the question of whether
what the enlightened person thinks is the goal is
the same as the goal nature "has in mind."

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

2006-03-03 Thread Vaj



On Mar 3, 2006, at 10:24 AM, Patrick Gillam wrote:--- Vaj wrote:  dying is easier than I thought :-)  Now there's an ability that may come in handy someday. All the better reason to practice dying now :-).





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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Gillam" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> --- authfriend wrote:
> >
> > Is that sense of "easy and simple" ever misleading?
> > I'm thinking of MMY, and wondering whether that's why
> > he assumed most everyone in the world would take to 
> > TM as soon as they heard about it, that governments
> > would leap at it, and so on.
> 
> It's extremely common for entrepreneurs to expect the 
> world to lap up whatever new product or service 
> the inventor is offering. Because this behavior is so 
> widespread, I suspect Maharishi's naivete is more a 
> function of his reclusive background and the 
> entrepreneur's tendency to expect the moon. In
> other words, I don't attribute it to his easy
> and simple awareness per se.
>

The best writers/singers/whatevers are often not the most popular. Of 
course, if one defines best in terms of "most popular," that's not 
the case.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin"  
> wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend"  
wrote:
> > >
> > 
> > > Is that sense of "easy and simple" ever misleading?
> > > I'm thinking of MMY, and wondering whether that's why
> > > he assumed most everyone in the world would take to 
> > > TM as soon as they heard about it, that governments
> > > would leap at it, and so on.
> > >
> > are you talking about the process of awakening or the awakened
> > state itself?
> 
> I mean, assuming MMY is awakened and everything seems
> easy and simple to him, could that sense have been
> what misled him to think it would be easy and simple
> for him to convince most everyone in the world to take
> up TM?

Personally I think it was several elements that led him to believe 
and proclaim such things:
1. He saw a need for the world that could be met by his capability, 
to essentially reinvent meditation as something practical for the 
householder.
2. As with any endeavor that speaks to our heart, he wanted as many 
as possible to take it up.
3. Since the technique is easy to learn and practice he saw it as 
easily accepted.
4. His vision was to benefit the whole world, not a subset of it.

As to whether he misjudged the difficulty of the task, I doubt it. 
The goal was initially to spread TM to one percent of the world's 
population, because that is what he thought would enlighten, or 
awaken, the world. 

As the task progressed, so did the dynamics; the interplay between 
the silence being awakened and brought into the world, by all our 
tiny little meditating brains. So his formulas changed, as the world 
changed.

Perhaps your question is whether or not he failed in his mission to 
enlighten the world. That I cannot answer. The only thing I know for 
certain is that he brought enlightenment to the world. What the 
world chooses to do with it is the world's business, far more than 
it is mine.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend"  wrote:
> >
> 
> > Is that sense of "easy and simple" ever misleading?
> > I'm thinking of MMY, and wondering whether that's why
> > he assumed most everyone in the world would take to 
> > TM as soon as they heard about it, that governments
> > would leap at it, and so on.
> >
> are you talking about the process of awakening or the awakened 
state 
> itself?
> 
> Just like he [MMY] says, the process of awakening through TM is 
> mechanical, but it does put us through the usual trips and changes, 
> about losing ourselves, sometimes painfully, etc. So it is simple 
in 
> concept, but I wouldn't describe it as easy from a seeker's 
standpoint.
> 
> On the other hand, once we wake up, it *is* easy and simple.
>

TM itself is easy, by definition. Scheduling time to do it and 
dealing with possible issues due to its practice may not be.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin"  
> wrote:
> 
> > Much more becomes available, simply by placing the attention on 
it. 
> > No doubt sidhis and such powers are more easily expressed in such 
a 
> > state, but oddly enough, living a non-dual reality, where we are 
no 
> > longer always trying to *get* something or somewhere else, there 
is 
> > little desire to cultivate such things. Unless they arise in the 
> > course of daily life as being useful.
> > 
> > Like my boss who had really bad hiccups awhile ago. I absorbed 
them 
> > by focusing on my throat (epiglotis actually), and they went away 
> > for him. Then recently, without knowing what I'd done, he gave me 
a 
> > much larger raise than what I was seeking. 
> > 
> > But I didn't do it for the raise. I did it because I felt sorry 
for 
> > him. And I have found that when the need is genuine, such things 
> > that can't be explained by people in darkness are readily
> > available, depending on one's natural inclinations. Just one tiny 
> > example of how easy and simple and real the world becomes once we 
> > are awake.
> 
> Is that sense of "easy and simple" ever misleading?
> I'm thinking of MMY, and wondering whether that's why
> he assumed most everyone in the world would take to 
> TM as soon as they heard about it, that governments
> would leap at it, and so on.
>

There's a mainstream article that I recently read online that insists 
that most people aren't happy because being happy is hard and most 
people are to lazy to do what it takes. Ironically, the article 
describes happy people as basically behaving according to their 
dharma and gives examples of athletes, artists, etc. To me this 
misses the point but obviously the writer wasn't happy or he/she 
wouldn't have said things the way they did.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

--- Vaj wrote:
>
> dying is easier than I thought :-)

Now there's an ability that may come in handy someday.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

--- authfriend wrote:
>
> Is that sense of "easy and simple" ever misleading?
> I'm thinking of MMY, and wondering whether that's why
> he assumed most everyone in the world would take to 
> TM as soon as they heard about it, that governments
> would leap at it, and so on.

It's extremely common for entrepreneurs to expect the 
world to lap up whatever new product or service 
the inventor is offering. Because this behavior is so 
widespread, I suspect Maharishi's naivete is more a 
function of his reclusive background and the 
entrepreneur's tendency to expect the moon. In
other words, I don't attribute it to his easy
and simple awareness per se.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

2006-03-03 Thread authfriend

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend"  wrote:
> >
> 
> > Is that sense of "easy and simple" ever misleading?
> > I'm thinking of MMY, and wondering whether that's why
> > he assumed most everyone in the world would take to 
> > TM as soon as they heard about it, that governments
> > would leap at it, and so on.
> >
> are you talking about the process of awakening or the awakened
> state itself?

I mean, assuming MMY is awakened and everything seems
easy and simple to him, could that sense have been
what misled him to think it would be easy and simple
for him to convince most everyone in the world to take
up TM?

> 
> Just like he [MMY] says, the process of awakening through TM is 
> mechanical, but it does put us through the usual trips and changes, 
> about losing ourselves, sometimes painfully, etc. So it is simple 
in 
> concept, but I wouldn't describe it as easy from a seeker's 
standpoint.
> 
> On the other hand, once we wake up, it *is* easy and simple.
>

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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, t3rinity  wrote:
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB  wrote:
> > >
> > > Just look at the cross-
> > > cultural range of spiritual experiences -- do Native
> > > Americans cognize Shiva and Brahma when they have
> > > visions? Do people brought up Catholic cognize 
> > > Krishna when they have visions? No, of course they 
> > > don't -- the Native Americans have the visions they
> > > expect to have, and the Catholics see Jesus or Mary
> > > or the beings *they* expect to see.
> > 
> > It's an interesting question, but I think one should split 
> > it into two parts.
> > 1) How is what they *see* influenced by what they know about 
> > and expect.
> > 2) How is the way they *interpret* what they have seen 
> > influenced by expectation and cultural background
> 
> In my opinion, it's an irrelevant distinction. 

Hm, I don't think it would be irrelevant, but I agree that it would be
hard to separate the two.

> The
> experience itself often happens in an alternate
> reality. The description of it happens afterwards.

Sure. But in case of visions, there are clear clues in memory. Memory
obviously seems to work. Like this man saw a face of a man with a
turban. He didn't just interpret the turban to be there later on. I
guess its an accurate memory. Or Bernadette saw the Lady in a pond.
She didn't just interpret the pond to be there later on, her memory I
think could be taken to be accurate. And there were no cultural clues
for her to manufacture this later on.

> In your #1 above, what they "see" is how they 
> describe what they "saw" after the fact, in the 
> waking state. 

I think they were not in Nirvikalpa Samadhi, so there were visual 
perceptions in that higher state that could be remembered.

> In your #2 above, how they interpret 
> the experience is also a description, also done 
> from the waking state, after the fact. 

I think the distinction here is between visual impression and the
memory thereof. The visual impression is during the experience, the
memory of course after, the interpretation of it still later. Its like
with dreams. We still have memories of dreams, even when we are awake.
They may be interpreted, but they are still visual memories.

> The only 
> thing that is relevant to the actual experience 
> is the actual experience.

Not quite, because the effect of the experience is very often still
felt after, and carried across into the waking state. And that is how
it's meant to be.

> In other words, the only way one could get a 
> "real-time" description of an experience of an
> alternate reality is if the person was somehow
> relating it *in* real time, for example, talk-
> ing into a tape recorder while it was going on.
> But if they were doing that, and able to handle
> the talking into a tape recorder (very much a
> normal waking-state reality type of activity) 
> are they really fully experiencing the alternate
> reality?

In some cases this is clearly possible. Its like automatic writing.
Just in most cases one doesn't know that one is going to have such an
experience. Anyway, usually people are overwhelmed after such
experiences and are searching for clues, and usually such clues come.

There is an interesting interpretation of St Pauls experience of
Christ by Ramana.According to Ramana Paulus had an experience of pure
Being. When he started to come to his normal state, slowly, the firts
thought he had was of Christ, as this was always formost in his mind,
as he persecuted him. Therefore he interpreted the experience to be
that of Christ, and that is, well how Christianity came about. ;-)

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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, t3rinity <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB  wrote:
> >
> > Just look at the cross-
> > cultural range of spiritual experiences -- do Native
> > Americans cognize Shiva and Brahma when they have
> > visions? Do people brought up Catholic cognize 
> > Krishna when they have visions? No, of course they 
> > don't -- the Native Americans have the visions they
> > expect to have, and the Catholics see Jesus or Mary
> > or the beings *they* expect to see.
> 
> It's an interesting question, but I think one should split 
> it into two parts.
> 1) How is what they *see* influenced by what they know about 
> and expect.
> 2) How is the way they *interpret* what they have seen 
> influenced by expectation and cultural background

In my opinion, it's an irrelevant distinction. The
experience itself often happens in an alternate
reality. The description of it happens afterwards.

In your #1 above, what they "see" is how they 
describe what they "saw" after the fact, in the 
waking state. In your #2 above, how they interpret 
the experience is also a description, also done 
from the waking state, after the fact. The only 
thing that is relevant to the actual experience 
is the actual experience.

In other words, the only way one could get a 
"real-time" description of an experience of an
alternate reality is if the person was somehow
relating it *in* real time, for example, talk-
ing into a tape recorder while it was going on.
But if they were doing that, and able to handle
the talking into a tape recorder (very much a
normal waking-state reality type of activity) 
are they really fully experiencing the alternate
reality?

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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, t3rinity  wrote:
> >
> > Another man I met had an appearance of Shirdi Sai Baba. 
> > Again he had never seen a picture of him, had nothing to 
> > do with Hinduism, and only recognized him when he saw the 
> > picture later in a Sai Baba center (while he was searching 
> > - he never went for Puttaparthy Sai Baba.)
> 
> Not to dispute this person's experience but to tell
> a funny story that may or may not relate to it, a
> fellow who had just gotten involved with the Rama 
> trip told a story about meeting Rama in a dream 
> before he met him in the physical. The dream had
> impressed him enough that he wrote it down in his
> Journal, years earlier. So he met the Rama guy,
> decided immediately that this was the guy he'd
> seen in his dream, and signed up to study with him.
> 
> Then, months later, he discovered his old Journals
> and found what he had actually written at the time
> about the guy in his dream -- he was a short Asian 
> guy with long, straight hair. Rama was 6 foot 4, 
> was clearly Western, and had fairly short curly hair.
> The guy, to his credit, had himself a good laugh at
> himself at that point and just kept on keepin' on.
> 
> What I think happens sometimes is that we have 
> experiences in other planes of existence that have
> *no* "mapping" to the plane of existence of our 
> "normal" waking state. The realities are so differ-
> ent that there is simply no *counterpart* in our
> reality for the things we experienced in the alter-
> nate reality. So the mind does its best to "map"
> the experiences of the alternate reality to the
> reality of the waking state. And sometimes what
> happens is that we wind up mapping the "vibe" of
> the experience, not the actual details of the
> experience. That is, we encounter something or
> someone in our waking state reality whose "vibe"
> reminds us of the "vibe" that part of us remembers
> from the alternate reality, and we merge the two
> in our minds.
> 
> It's just a theory, but one which I've had to deal
> with often when trying to come up with some way
> to write about experiences I've had for which there 
> is simply is no analogue in the thing we call 
> "everyday reality."

That's surely an interesting theory, and yes I had already thought
along similar lines. Sure, something is 'matched' with something else.
There is also the now famous story of Papaji, who says a Sadhu with
the appearance of Ramana came to his doorstep to invite him to see
Ramana. When he went to see him, he realized that this is the very
same man who had invited him, and he accused him to be a cheater,
because he could have answered his questions then and there, instead
of directing him to his 'Guru', which was obviously himself.
 No matter what, the guy got directed, and obviously in a very
fruitful way, because it let to his liberation. It really doesn't
matter anymore, if this appearance was really Ramana (there was also
the aditional element of giving him the address) or if he was just
matching him to be so later. Maybe it was a Sadhu with the Ramana vibe.

If you look at it as a whole, then both the vision and the mapping of
it are both part of the same process, which -acc. to my interpretation
 of course - where just 'meant to be'.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Just look at the cross-
> cultural range of spiritual experiences -- do Native
> Americans cognize Shiva and Brahma when they have
> visions? Do people brought up Catholic cognize 
> Krishna when they have visions? No, of course they 
> don't -- the Native Americans have the visions they
> expect to have, and the Catholics see Jesus or Mary
> or the beings *they* expect to see.

It's an interesting question, but I think one should split it into two
parts.
1) How is what they *see* influenced by what they know about and expect.
2) How is the way they *interpret* what they have seen influenced by
expectation and cultural background

For 1) the expectation and background should have been there *before*
the experience.
For 2) it would be sufficient that a certain cultural explanation
comes along right *after* the experience - and is matched to the vibe
of it as you suggested.

For example, I seem to recall that the description of Bernadette's
vision at Lourdes (I think it was her) seemed to equally or more
precisely match a description of Lakshmi or some waternymph, because
she was standing in water, I think inside a flower, a rose (Lotus?),
something very untypical for Christians, but was interpereted with the
necessary clues as an apparition of Mary, and is seen as a Christian
holy site. It clearly didn't match 1) as the Christian background
couldn't have suggested the imagery.

> 
> I consider it possible (but not a given) that the
> Navajo having a vision in his hogan and the monk in
> his monastery might be having the same experience.
> But how they *interpret* that experience afterwards
> is going to be in terms of how they were *taught* to 
> interpret such experiences.
> 
> > What really impressed me about the teachings is an 
> > experience of the veda I had once, very powerful and 
> > definately real as I couldn't have imagined it if I'd 
> > tried. The thing is, the only veda I knew of at 
> > the time was Darth...  :-)
> 
> LOL.
> 
> > ...as it was four years before I heard about it on a 
> > course and was told we could actually hear it in 
> > certain states.
> 
> But was what you heard the "Veda," or some undiffer-
> entiated cosmic "white noise" associated with a 
> particular state of attention? Would it be possible
> that someone used to choral singing in churches could
> have experienced the same thing and heard the "heavenly 
> choir" or that a monk from Lhasa could have heard the
> same thing and heard something that appeared to them 
> to be in the Tibetan language?
> 
> I don't have any answers for these questions, BTW.
> I'm just fascinated by this phenomenon.
>

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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, t3rinity <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Another man I met had an appearance of Shirdi Sai Baba. 
> Again he had never seen a picture of him, had nothing to 
> do with Hinduism, and only recognized him when he saw the 
> picture later in a Sai Baba center (while he was searching 
> - he never went for Puttaparthy Sai Baba.)

Not to dispute this person's experience but to tell
a funny story that may or may not relate to it, a
fellow who had just gotten involved with the Rama 
trip told a story about meeting Rama in a dream 
before he met him in the physical. The dream had
impressed him enough that he wrote it down in his
Journal, years earlier. So he met the Rama guy,
decided immediately that this was the guy he'd
seen in his dream, and signed up to study with him.

Then, months later, he discovered his old Journals
and found what he had actually written at the time
about the guy in his dream -- he was a short Asian 
guy with long, straight hair. Rama was 6 foot 4, 
was clearly Western, and had fairly short curly hair.
The guy, to his credit, had himself a good laugh at
himself at that point and just kept on keepin' on.

What I think happens sometimes is that we have 
experiences in other planes of existence that have
*no* "mapping" to the plane of existence of our 
"normal" waking state. The realities are so differ-
ent that there is simply no *counterpart* in our
reality for the things we experienced in the alter-
nate reality. So the mind does its best to "map"
the experiences of the alternate reality to the
reality of the waking state. And sometimes what
happens is that we wind up mapping the "vibe" of
the experience, not the actual details of the
experience. That is, we encounter something or
someone in our waking state reality whose "vibe"
reminds us of the "vibe" that part of us remembers
from the alternate reality, and we merge the two
in our minds.

It's just a theory, but one which I've had to deal
with often when trying to come up with some way
to write about experiences I've had for which there 
is simply is no analogue in the thing we call 
"everyday reality."

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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "hugheshugo" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> It's interesting to hear that the power of persuasion might 
> be at work here, as I had a series of experiences early on 
> in my "career" that showed me a text book step-by-step 
> evolution, clearly deliniated states of higher awareness 
> from cc all the way to unity, it was amazingly convincing 
> and very obviously a real physical state my brain was 
> slipping into. But I had read a book about TM and asked 
> many questions on courses. Can our expectations (not that 
> I felt I was having any, I've always felt very innocent 
> with the technique) influence the states this easily? 
> This would be a fascinating area of study I think.

I agree. I don't think there is any question that
what one has "grown up with" philosophically colors
and influences one's interpretation of one's own
spiritual experiences. Just look at the cross-
cultural range of spiritual experiences -- do Native
Americans cognize Shiva and Brahma when they have
visions? Do people brought up Catholic cognize 
Krishna when they have visions? No, of course they 
don't -- the Native Americans have the visions they
expect to have, and the Catholics see Jesus or Mary
or the beings *they* expect to see.

I consider it possible (but not a given) that the
Navajo having a vision in his hogan and the monk in
his monastery might be having the same experience.
But how they *interpret* that experience afterwards
is going to be in terms of how they were *taught* to 
interpret such experiences.

> What really impressed me about the teachings is an 
> experience of the veda I had once, very powerful and 
> definately real as I couldn't have imagined it if I'd 
> tried. The thing is, the only veda I knew of at 
> the time was Darth...  :-)

LOL.

> ...as it was four years before I heard about it on a 
> course and was told we could actually hear it in 
> certain states.

But was what you heard the "Veda," or some undiffer-
entiated cosmic "white noise" associated with a 
particular state of attention? Would it be possible
that someone used to choral singing in churches could
have experienced the same thing and heard the "heavenly 
choir" or that a monk from Lhasa could have heard the
same thing and heard something that appeared to them 
to be in the Tibetan language?

I don't have any answers for these questions, BTW.
I'm just fascinated by this phenomenon.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "hugheshugo"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> What really impressed me about the teachings is an experience of the 
> veda I had once, very powerful and definately real as I couldn't have 
> imagined it if I'd tried. The thing is, the only veda I knew of at 
> the time was Darth, as it was four years before I heard about it on a 
> course and was told we could actually hear it in certain states.

I once met a man in an esoteric shop, who saw a mantra graphical in
his meditation, and drew it to me. It was the Ganesha bija. He had
known nothing about Hinduism, Ganesha or Sanskrit. These things are
possible.

Another man I met had an appearance of Shirdi Sai Baba. Again he had
never seen a picture of him, had nothing to do with Hinduism, and only
recognized him when he saw the picture later in a Sai Baba center
(while he was searching - he never went for Puttaparthy Sai Baba.) 

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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> > To bring up Suzanne Segal again, that's an admonition she 
> > hammered toward the end of her book -- "seeing things 
> > as they really are." But she never elaborated on it. 
> > 
> > Sometimes I think the work of Byron Katie is geared toward 
> > seeing things as they really are, unencumbered by 
> > preconceptions or fears. Maybe that's one explanation.
> 
> Isn't "choiceless awareness" Krishnamurti's version of this?

Yes, a beautiful expression - and a clue to non-doership as well.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

2006-03-03 Thread hugheshugo

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin"  
> wrote:
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Gillam" 
> >  wrote:
> > > --- jim_flanegin wrote:
> > > > --- Rick Archer wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Seems to me that enlightenment is a matter of seeing
> > > > > things clearly. It doesn't mean you're Superman.
> > > > >
> > > > That's as good and elegant a definition as I've heard-- 
seeing 
> > > > things clearly. Plain and simple.
> 
> This is very much in line with the Buddhist approach
> to enlightenment.  One "definition" I've heard from
> Buddhist teachers of the state is, "Enlightenment is 
> perception without mental modification."
> 
> *Any* mental modification. I think that one of the
> things that "rings false" in some people's reported
> experiences of enlightenment is that they attempt
> to make the experiences "fit into" the descriptions
> of such experiences they have been fed by their
> tradition. They *color* the stories of their own
> personal experiences in such a way that they seem
> to be more in line with what other members of the
> organization were told about what such experiences
> "should" be like. Or -- another common phenomenon --
> they describe their experiences such that it appears
> they fall into one of the pat descriptions of *stages*
> of enlightenment -- CC, GC, UC, BC, or whatever the
> various "flavors" of experiences are labeled by their
> tradition.
> 
> That's one reason I find reports such as Jim's 
> valuable. He rarely, if ever, tries to do this.
> He just talks about what he experiences, without
> trying to "color" it or define it in any way *as*
> anything; they're just his stories of "what is,"
> for him.
> 
> > > To bring up Suzanne Segal again, that's an admonition she 
> > > hammered toward the end of her book -- "seeing things 
> > > as they really are." But she never elaborated on it. 
> > > 
> > > Sometimes I think the work of Byron Katie is geared toward 
> > > seeing things as they really are, unencumbered by 
> > > preconceptions or fears. Maybe that's one explanation.
> 
> Preconceptions are always just that -- pre-conceptions.
> They're what one expects the baby to look like and
> be like before any actual screwing has taken place. :-)
> 
> When the baby actually *is* conceived and pops out,
> it doesn't necessarily look like or act like what
> was expected. And that's Ok. But some "parents" have
> a tendency to try to *make* it into what they expected.
> The kid's playing in the sandbox, clearly blissed out
> drawing in the sand, enjoying being an artist, and
> the "parents" are already planning its career as a 
> lawyer, because they were told that all enlightenment
> babies are lawyers.  :-)  :-)  :-)
> 
> Back in Fiuggi, I knew about half a dozen folks who
> were having flashes of awakening. At first they were 
> quite happy describing them *as they were*, as 24/7
> transcendence, along with whatever else was going on
> in the "foreground" of life. Then Maharishi gave a
> lecture in which he suggested that one of the 
> qualities of CC was "X." Within days, all of these
> people were talking about "X." No one had ever 
> mentioned "X" before, or seemingly even thought 
> about "X" before, but the moment it was an *expected*
> component of CC, they added it to their stories of
> their own personal experiences.
> 
> In other words, in my opinion, not being stabilized
> in their experience, they were attempting to *color*
> it and *make them into* what such experiences were
> "supposed" to be like. What was obvious from my 
> point of view was that the joy had gone out of their
> stories. Before this event, when these people had
> been talking about "what was" for them, you could
> *feel* the energy behind their words, the sense of
> newness and excitement that they were feeling. The
> moment they switched to telling stories about what
> they were "supposed" to be experiencing, all of 
> that joy went out of the words. It was just people
> telling stories that had been told to them.
>

It's interesting to hear that the power of persuasion might be at 
work here, as I had a series of experiences early on in my "career" 
that showed me a text book step-by-step evolution, clearly deliniated 
states of higher awareness from cc all the way to unity, it was 
amazingly convincing and very obviously a real physical state my 
brain was slipping into. But I had read a book about TM and asked 
many questions on courses. Can our expectations (not that I felt I 
was having any, I've always felt very innocent with the technique) 
influence the states this easily? This would be a fascinating area of 
study I think.

What really impressed me about the teachings is an experience of the 
veda I had once, very powerful and definately real as I couldn't have 
imagined it if I'd tried. The thing is, the only veda I knew of at 
the time was Darth, as it was four years before

[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> On Mar 2, 2006, at 4:30 PM, sparaig wrote:
> 
> > As far as I can tell, Vaj is misinterpretting/over-interpretting some
> > text taht talks about how even a nail driven into one's hand won't
> > takethem out of samadhi. But that's the definition of CC. Screaming
> > isn't relevant to witnessing.
> 
> Actually the quote was Robert Svoboda quoting his master, the Aghori  
> Vimalananda. SO shouldn't you be saying that Robbie or Vimalananda is  
> mis- or over-interpreting this?

Actually I was just reading the 3 books by him, and I am tempted to
reply: 'Yes, certainly' These books, certainly a good read, have some
rather wild and far-out stories which remind me of Castaneda.Certainly
interesting, but the thought came to my mind, how authentic they
actually are. You know it could all be made up, just integrating a lot
of material from Tantrism. But even if its not made up, or poetically
enlarged, its all the story-telling of some Sadhu, with extra-ordinary
claims. 

So its all second or third-hand account.

When I was at the 2001 Kumbh, some smoking Baba showed me a fotograph
of himself hoovering over the ground his head near the ceiling. I'm
quite sure it was a fake, looked like the TM Flying pictures. These
Sadhus tell a lot of stories. It sin't rare at all to run over people
who are claimed to be several hundred years old. (I met one 2004). But
according to Ramana Siddhis or Nirvikalpa Samadhi are not a
prerequiste to enlightenment the 'natural state'. Also Aurobindo says
that he never went into Nirvikalpa.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

2006-03-02 Thread TurquoiseB

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Gillam" 
>  wrote:
> > --- jim_flanegin wrote:
> > > --- Rick Archer wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Seems to me that enlightenment is a matter of seeing
> > > > things clearly. It doesn't mean you're Superman.
> > > >
> > > That's as good and elegant a definition as I've heard-- seeing 
> > > things clearly. Plain and simple.

This is very much in line with the Buddhist approach
to enlightenment.  One "definition" I've heard from
Buddhist teachers of the state is, "Enlightenment is 
perception without mental modification."

*Any* mental modification. I think that one of the
things that "rings false" in some people's reported
experiences of enlightenment is that they attempt
to make the experiences "fit into" the descriptions
of such experiences they have been fed by their
tradition. They *color* the stories of their own
personal experiences in such a way that they seem
to be more in line with what other members of the
organization were told about what such experiences
"should" be like. Or -- another common phenomenon --
they describe their experiences such that it appears
they fall into one of the pat descriptions of *stages*
of enlightenment -- CC, GC, UC, BC, or whatever the
various "flavors" of experiences are labeled by their
tradition.

That's one reason I find reports such as Jim's 
valuable. He rarely, if ever, tries to do this.
He just talks about what he experiences, without
trying to "color" it or define it in any way *as*
anything; they're just his stories of "what is,"
for him.

> > To bring up Suzanne Segal again, that's an admonition she 
> > hammered toward the end of her book -- "seeing things 
> > as they really are." But she never elaborated on it. 
> > 
> > Sometimes I think the work of Byron Katie is geared toward 
> > seeing things as they really are, unencumbered by 
> > preconceptions or fears. Maybe that's one explanation.

Preconceptions are always just that -- pre-conceptions.
They're what one expects the baby to look like and
be like before any actual screwing has taken place. :-)

When the baby actually *is* conceived and pops out,
it doesn't necessarily look like or act like what
was expected. And that's Ok. But some "parents" have
a tendency to try to *make* it into what they expected.
The kid's playing in the sandbox, clearly blissed out
drawing in the sand, enjoying being an artist, and
the "parents" are already planning its career as a 
lawyer, because they were told that all enlightenment
babies are lawyers.  :-)  :-)  :-)

Back in Fiuggi, I knew about half a dozen folks who
were having flashes of awakening. At first they were 
quite happy describing them *as they were*, as 24/7
transcendence, along with whatever else was going on
in the "foreground" of life. Then Maharishi gave a
lecture in which he suggested that one of the 
qualities of CC was "X." Within days, all of these
people were talking about "X." No one had ever 
mentioned "X" before, or seemingly even thought 
about "X" before, but the moment it was an *expected*
component of CC, they added it to their stories of
their own personal experiences.

In other words, in my opinion, not being stabilized
in their experience, they were attempting to *color*
it and *make them into* what such experiences were
"supposed" to be like. What was obvious from my 
point of view was that the joy had gone out of their
stories. Before this event, when these people had
been talking about "what was" for them, you could
*feel* the energy behind their words, the sense of
newness and excitement that they were feeling. The
moment they switched to telling stories about what
they were "supposed" to be experiencing, all of 
that joy went out of the words. It was just people
telling stories that had been told to them.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

2006-03-02 Thread jim_flanegin

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>

> Is that sense of "easy and simple" ever misleading?
> I'm thinking of MMY, and wondering whether that's why
> he assumed most everyone in the world would take to 
> TM as soon as they heard about it, that governments
> would leap at it, and so on.
>
are you talking about the process of awakening or the awakened state 
itself?

Just like he [MMY] says, the process of awakening through TM is 
mechanical, but it does put us through the usual trips and changes, 
about losing ourselves, sometimes painfully, etc. So it is simple in 
concept, but I wouldn't describe it as easy from a seeker's standpoint.

On the other hand, once we wake up, it *is* easy and simple. 

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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:

> Much more becomes available, simply by placing the attention on it. 
> No doubt sidhis and such powers are more easily expressed in such a 
> state, but oddly enough, living a non-dual reality, where we are no 
> longer always trying to *get* something or somewhere else, there is 
> little desire to cultivate such things. Unless they arise in the 
> course of daily life as being useful.
> 
> Like my boss who had really bad hiccups awhile ago. I absorbed them 
> by focusing on my throat (epiglotis actually), and they went away 
> for him. Then recently, without knowing what I'd done, he gave me a 
> much larger raise than what I was seeking. 
> 
> But I didn't do it for the raise. I did it because I felt sorry for 
> him. And I have found that when the need is genuine, such things 
> that can't be explained by people in darkness are readily
> available, depending on one's natural inclinations. Just one tiny 
> example of how easy and simple and real the world becomes once we 
> are awake.

Is that sense of "easy and simple" ever misleading?
I'm thinking of MMY, and wondering whether that's why
he assumed most everyone in the world would take to 
TM as soon as they heard about it, that governments
would leap at it, and so on.

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

on 3/2/06 8:48 PM, authfriend at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>> 
>> on 3/2/06 5:46 PM, Vaj at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>  
>>> I used to receive a hand-typed newsletter from someone on Purusha
>>> and he also described a similar story with M. albeit that this
>>> would take place over a weeks time, every year. He used a
>>> lightproof and temperature controlled room, and his body had to be
>>> wrapped in a certain prescribed manner, then off he went to
>>> a "continuum of silence" for days. He used it to check on the status
>>> of the universe it claimed.
>>> 
>> One of Maharishi¹s secretaries told me that Maharishi¹s weekly
>> silences were working sessions. He would take food and crank out
>> reams of notes. I don¹t know if they were all that way.
> 
> Doesn't he do a week of silence every year just before
> his "birthday" in January, when he proclaims the theme
> for the coming year?

Yes.

>I remember seeing a tape of his
> address just after supposedly coming out of silence one
> year (many years ago), in which he was draped in a
> beige shawl and spoke quite softly but looked very
> blissful.  It's the only time I recall seeing him
> wearing anything over his white outfit.

He had a Chartreuse shawl over his shoulders. Still wore the dhoti.
> 
> We were told he didn't eat or drink anything during the
> week of silence, and that he always looked rather frail
> when he came out.

Yes. I've been there several times when he came out. Very profound darshan,
although now I wonder if he was acting a bit to embellish the impression.
Maybe sometimes he didn't eat or drink during silence, but one of his
secretaries told me that sometimes he did.




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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

2006-03-02 Thread jim_flanegin

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Gillam" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- jim_flanegin wrote:
> >
> > --- Rick Archer wrote:
> > >
> >  Seems to me that enlightenment is a matter of seeing
> > > things clearly. It doesn't mean you're Superman.
> > >
> > That's as good and elegant a definition as I've heard-- seeing 
things 
> > clearly. Plain and simple.
> 
> To bring up Suzanne Segal again, that's an admonition she 
> hammered toward the end of her book -- "seeing things 
> as they really are." But she never elaborated on it. 
> 
> Sometimes I think the work of Byron Katie is geared toward 
> seeing things as they really are, unencumbered by 
> preconceptions or fears. Maybe that's one explanation.
>
Yes, Byron Katie's method of enquiry is really useful in unraveling 
stories stored in the mind. Clutter.

And yes, the experience of the mind after awakening is like always 
starting with a clean slate, moment by moment, seeing anything in 
utter simplicity and utter profundity. Preconceptions are just there 
out of habit or due to fear. Without them, the world appears as it 
truly is, far deeper and more beautiful than we used to think it was.

Much more becomes available, simply by placing the attention on it. 
No doubt sidhis and such powers are more easily expressed in such a 
state, but oddly enough, living a non-dual reality, where we are no 
longer always trying to *get* something or somewhere else, there is 
little desire to cultivate such things. Unless they arise in the 
course of daily life as being useful.

Like my boss who had really bad hiccups awhile ago. I absorbed them 
by focusing on my throat (epiglotis actually), and they went away 
for him. Then recently, without knowing what I'd done, he gave me a 
much larger raise than what I was seeking. 

But I didn't do it for the raise. I did it because I felt sorry for 
him. And I have found that when the need is genuine, such things 
that can't be explained by people in darkness are readily available, 
depending on one's natural inclinations. Just one tiny example of 
how easy and simple and real the world becomes once we are awake.

And how it begins to operate completely differently than what we 
thought before, caught up in all our stories and illusions and 
preconceptions. And at the same time, it is far more real, far more 
simple, and far more natural and gratifying than it ever was before.

Thanks for your comments. 

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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Gillam" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> --- jim_flanegin wrote:
> >
> > --- Rick Archer wrote:
> > >
> >  Seems to me that enlightenment is a matter of seeing
> > > things clearly. It doesn't mean you're Superman.
> > >
> > That's as good and elegant a definition as I've heard-- seeing 
things 
> > clearly. Plain and simple.
> 
> To bring up Suzanne Segal again, that's an admonition she 
> hammered toward the end of her book -- "seeing things 
> as they really are." But she never elaborated on it. 
> 
> Sometimes I think the work of Byron Katie is geared toward 
> seeing things as they really are, unencumbered by 
> preconceptions or fears. Maybe that's one explanation.

Isn't "choiceless awareness" Krishnamurti's version of this?

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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> on 3/2/06 5:46 PM, Vaj at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> > I used to receive a hand-typed newsletter from someone on Purusha 
> > and he also described a similar story with M. albeit that this 
> > would take place over a weeks time, every year. He used a 
> > lightproof and temperature controlled room, and his body had to be 
> > wrapped in a certain prescribed manner, then off he went to 
> > a "continuum of silence" for days. He used it to check on the status
> > of the universe it claimed.
> > 
> One of Maharishi¹s secretaries told me that Maharishi¹s weekly 
> silences were working sessions. He would take food and crank out 
> reams of notes. I don¹t know if they were all that way.

Doesn't he do a week of silence every year just before
his "birthday" in January, when he proclaims the theme
for the coming year?  I remember seeing a tape of his
address just after supposedly coming out of silence one
year (many years ago), in which he was draped in a 
beige shawl and spoke quite softly but looked very
blissful.  It's the only time I recall seeing him
wearing anything over his white outfit.

We were told he didn't eat or drink anything during the
week of silence, and that he always looked rather frail
when he came out.

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

On Mar 2, 2006, at 8:25 PM, Rick Archer wrote:on 3/2/06 5:46 PM, Vaj at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:On Mar 2, 2006, at 6:07 PM, Rick Archer wrote:No. I’m sure such things are possible. There are stories in the Puranas too. My only point is that I’m not convinced that such an ability is an essential prerequisite for enlightenment. But that’s really just an opinion based on my current knowledge and experience. Subject to revision, as always. My feeling is this style of samadhi is just one means of investigating consciousness, not the only one. For the Patanjali yogins, it's real important--it's also used in some types of Buddhist meditation where the importance has to to with stability of the awareness which investigates consciousness. The deep silence allows for attentional stability and the vividness needed.I used to receive a hand-typed newsletter from someone on Purusha and he also described a similar story with M. albeit that this would take place over a weeks time, every year. He used a lightproof and temperature controlled room, and his body had to be wrapped in a certain prescribed manner, then off he went to a "continuum of silence" for days. He used it to check on the status of the universe it claimed.One of Maharishi’s secretaries told me that Maharishi’s weekly silences were working sessions. He would take food and crank out reams of notes. I don’t know if they were all that way.I was also told that these techniques were passed on to select group of purushas.Hadn’t heard that.Hard to verify if any of this is true or just fabrication. At the time of course I believed every word.Eventually I just stopped caring, found someone who knew the methods and went off and learned them on my own.Did you master them? Not by a long shot, but dying is easier than I thought :-), it's coming back that can be difficult. These are practices done over a lifetime.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

2006-03-02 Thread Patrick Gillam

--- jim_flanegin wrote:
>
> --- Rick Archer wrote:
> >
>  Seems to me that enlightenment is a matter of seeing
> > things clearly. It doesn't mean you're Superman.
> >
> That's as good and elegant a definition as I've heard-- seeing things 
> clearly. Plain and simple.

To bring up Suzanne Segal again, that's an admonition she 
hammered toward the end of her book -- "seeing things 
as they really are." But she never elaborated on it. 

Sometimes I think the work of Byron Katie is geared toward 
seeing things as they really are, unencumbered by 
preconceptions or fears. Maybe that's one explanation. 

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

Title: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

on 3/2/06 5:46 PM, Vaj at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On Mar 2, 2006, at 6:07 PM, Rick Archer wrote:

No. I’m sure such things are possible. There are stories in the Puranas too. My only point is that I’m not convinced that such an ability is an essential prerequisite for enlightenment. But that’s really just an opinion based on my current knowledge and experience. Subject to revision, as always.

My feeling is this style of samadhi is just one means of investigating consciousness, not the only one. For the Patanjali yogins, it's real important--it's also used in some types of Buddhist meditation where the importance has to to with stability of the awareness which investigates consciousness. The deep silence allows for attentional stability and the vividness needed.

I used to receive a hand-typed newsletter from someone on Purusha and he also described a similar story with M. albeit that this would take place over a weeks time, every year. He used a lightproof and temperature controlled room, and his body had to be wrapped in a certain prescribed manner, then off he went to a "continuum of silence" for days. He used it to check on the status of the universe it claimed.

One of Maharishi’s secretaries told me that Maharishi’s weekly silences were working sessions. He would take food and crank out reams of notes. I don’t know if they were all that way.

I was also told that these techniques were passed on to select group of purushas.

Hadn’t heard that.

Hard to verify if any of this is true or just fabrication. At the time of course I believed every word.

Eventually I just stopped caring, found someone who knew the methods and went off and learned them on my own.

Did you master them?

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

On Mar 2, 2006, at 6:07 PM, Rick Archer wrote:No. I’m sure such things are possible. There are stories in the Puranas too. My only point is that I’m not convinced that such an ability is an essential prerequisite for enlightenment. But that’s really just an opinion based on my current knowledge and experience. Subject to revision, as always. My feeling is this style of samadhi is just one means of investigating consciousness, not the only one. For the Patanjali yogins, it's real important--it's also used in some types of Buddhist meditation where the importance has to to with stability of the awareness which investigates consciousness. The deep silence allows for attentional stability and the vividness needed.I used to receive a hand-typed newsletter from someone on Purusha and he also described a similar story with M. albeit that this would take place over a weeks time, every year. He used a lightproof and temperature controlled room, and his body had to be wrapped in a certain prescribed manner, then off he went to a "continuum of silence" for days. He used it to check on the status of the universe it claimed.I was also told that these techniques were passed on to select group of purushas.Hard to verify if any of this is true or just fabrication. At the time of course I believed every word.Eventually I just stopped caring, found someone who knew the methods and went off and learned them on my own.

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

Title: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

on 3/2/06 3:53 PM, Vaj at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Rick, wasn't it you who shared the story of M. and the meeting with another meditation teacher whose students could go into an insensate samadhi?

Yes, I told that story, having heard it from somewhere. There are also stories of Maharishi and Amma doing this. The Maharishi story, as I heard it, was that he was in some mountain cabin in California where he wanted to be left alone for a while to work on a book or something. There was a big snow storm and people couldn’t get up there for a few days. When they finally did, they found him sitting in samadhi, half covered with snow, with the window open. When he came out he was none the worse for wear. Don’t know the veracity of the story.

Had you forgotten about that?

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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> On Mar 2, 2006, at 4:30 PM, sparaig wrote:
> 
> > As far as I can tell, Vaj is misinterpretting/over-interpretting 
some
> > text taht talks about how even a nail driven into one's hand won't
> > takethem out of samadhi. But that's the definition of CC. 
Screaming
> > isn't relevant to witnessing.
> 
> Actually the quote was Robert Svoboda quoting his master, the
> Aghori Vimalananda. SO shouldn't you be saying that Robbie or 
> Vimalananda is mis- or over-interpreting this?

Um, you did seem to endorse it as some kind of Revealed
Truth.

> Rick, wasn't it you who shared the story of M. and the meeting
> with another meditation teacher whose students could go into an 
> insensate samadhi? Had you forgotten about that?

Samadhi, at least in the TM sense of what one experiences
during meditation--transcendental consciousness by itself--
is *by definition* "insensate."  The question is whether
waking-state consciousness (i.e., sensory awareness) kicks
in with the application of a sufficiently strong stimulus.

(If it does, it may either "replace"--for lack of a 
better term--or supplement transcendental consciousness,
depending on whether one has reached CC, in which TC is 
always "present"--again, for lack of a better term.)

It strikes me as not a terribly useful ability to be
able to experience transcendental consciousness by
itself in such a way that an actual assault on one's
body doesn't cause sensory awareness to kick in. Why
should that be considered to be more highly evolved?

Maybe it would be useful if you were going to be
assaulted no matter what and wanted to avoid feeling
the pain, but otherwise it doesn't seem like a very
life-enhancing trait.

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

On Mar 2, 2006, at 2:47 PM, Rick Archer wrote:on 3/2/06 1:38 PM, Vaj at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well let's not take these two items out of context. The nail story of Vimalananda refers to a person who claimed the ability to be in a certain type of samadhi. The fact that he did experience pain in that style of samadhi only means he was not really in that style of samadhi. It really says little about enlightenment per se.The lack of casting of the shadow describes a certain aspect of unity, but is only really relevant in a style of enlightenment where the karmic supports for the physical body are transforming. And it's extremely rare, let alone witnessed. Nonetheless it's an occurrence I like to mention when britches get too many sizes too big. So is there a state which you would feel comfortable labeling “enlightenment” which doesn’t necessarily include these extraordinary states and abilities, and which normal folks might attain after 30-40 years of regular spiritual practice?It's all going to hinge on how you define the english word "enlightenment". Very vague word.

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness



On Mar 2, 2006, at 4:30 PM, sparaig wrote:As far as I can tell, Vaj is misinterpretting/over-interpretting some  text taht talks about how even a nail driven into one's hand won't  takethem out of samadhi. But that's the definition of CC. Screaming  isn't relevant to witnessing. Actually the quote was Robert Svoboda quoting his master, the Aghori Vimalananda. SO shouldn't you be saying that Robbie or Vimalananda is mis- or over-interpreting this?Rick, wasn't it you who shared the story of M. and the meeting with another meditation teacher whose students could go into an insensate samadhi? Had you forgotten about that?





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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> on 3/2/06 3:30 PM, sparaig at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > 
> > As far as I can tell, Vaj is misinterpretting/over-interpretting 
some
> > text taht talks about how even a nail driven into one's hand won't
> > takethem out of samadhi. But that's the definition of CC. 
Screaming
> > isn't relevant to witnessing.
> 
> He seems to feel that a fully enlightened person should be able to 
go into a
> state in which one would be unaware that the nail had been driven. 
In other
> words, senses completely shut down or withdrawn. I'm not convinced 
that that
> ability is a necessary criterion of enlightenment. It seems more 
like a
> specialized sidhi.
>

Of course the senses are withdrawn whenever one has samadhi during 
meditation, but 1) I've never heard it claimed that this would 
preclude "waking up" in an emergency and 2) wasn't this during a 
lecture? 

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

on 3/2/06 3:30 PM, sparaig at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> As far as I can tell, Vaj is misinterpretting/over-interpretting some
> text taht talks about how even a nail driven into one's hand won't
> takethem out of samadhi. But that's the definition of CC. Screaming
> isn't relevant to witnessing.

He seems to feel that a fully enlightened person should be able to go into a
state in which one would be unaware that the nail had been driven. In other
words, senses completely shut down or withdrawn. I'm not convinced that that
ability is a necessary criterion of enlightenment. It seems more like a
specialized sidhi.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> on 3/2/06 1:38 PM, Vaj at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > 
> > Well let's not take these two items out of context. The nail 
story of
> > Vimalananda refers to a person who claimed the ability to be in a 
certain type
> > of samadhi. The fact that he did experience pain in that style of 
samadhi only
> > means he was not really in that style of samadhi. It really says 
little about
> > enlightenment per se.
> > 
> > The lack of casting of the shadow describes a certain aspect of 
unity, but is
> > only really relevant in a style of enlightenment where the karmic 
supports for
> > the physical body are transforming. And it's extremely rare, let 
alone
> > witnessed. Nonetheless it's an occurrence I like to mention when 
britches get
> > too many sizes too big. 
> > 
> So is there a state which you would feel comfortable labeling
> ³enlightenment² which doesn¹t necessarily include these 
extraordinary states
> and abilities, and which normal folks might attain after 30-40 
years of
> regular spiritual practice?
>

As far as I can tell, Vaj is misinterpretting/over-interpretting some 
text taht talks about how even a nail driven into one's hand won't 
takethem out of samadhi. But that's the definition of CC. Screaming 
isn't relevant to witnessing.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> On Mar 2, 2006, at 1:39 PM, Rick Archer wrote:
> 
> > but I have a hard time
> > believing that people like Eckhart Tolle and Bernadette Roberts 
are  
> > not
> > enlightened merely because they couldn't be oblivious to having a 
nail
> > driven through their foot or that they cast a shadow. I think 
he's  
> > raising
> > the bar too high. Seems to me that enlightenment is a matter of 
seeing
> > things clearly. It doesn't mean you're Superman.
> >
> 
> Well let's not take these two items out of context. The nail story 
of  
> Vimalananda refers to a person who claimed the ability to be in a  
> certain type of samadhi. The fact that he did experience pain in 
that  
> style of samadhi only means he was not really in that style of  
> samadhi. It really says little about enlightenment per se.
> 

But your expectation about what samadhi is or isn't colors your 
perception of the story.

> The lack of casting of the shadow describes a certain aspect of  
> unity, but is only really relevant in a style of enlightenment 
where  
> the karmic supports for the physical body are transforming. And 
it's  
> extremely rare, let alone witnessed. Nonetheless it's an occurrence 
I  
> like to mention when britches get too many sizes too big.
>

How do you know its extremely rare? Who says that such a state, where 
one can be sure that one won't scream, exists? What tradition gives 
this as a test? Zen stories speak of the guys who can meditate under 
a waterfall. I've meditated in a dentist's chair with the dentist 
drilling out a tooth. People can meditate while in extreme pain from 
broken bones, waiting foran ambulance. What specifically is there 
about the nail that makes this story important to you?

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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> on 3/2/06 11:57 AM, jim_flanegin at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj  wrote:
> >  perhaps I felt it in bad
> >> form to talk of my own pointing-out and recognition, brag about 
it
> > in  
> >> public or discuss the details of how the View was tested and
> >> verified? I know it's all the rage, discussing of "experiences" 
and
> >> so on--but didn't you ever wonder about those who knew the point 
of
> >> non-discussion of experience?
> >> 
> > Just want to add that in my case I am not bragging. What is there 
to
> > brag about? 
> > 
> > The reasons I discuss my experience of awakening openly is, one,
> > because there is an opportunity to do so, where at least some of 
the
> > folks reading understand what is being discussed, and two, I
> > personally feel that it is important to let people know that 
ordinary
> > chumps, like me, can achieve such a state.
> 
> Good point. I respect Vaj's knowledge and experience, but I have a 
hard time
> believing that people like Eckhart Tolle and Bernadette Roberts are 
not
> enlightened merely because they couldn't be oblivious to having a 
nail
> driven through their foot or that they cast a shadow. I think he's 
raising
> the bar too high. Seems to me that enlightenment is a matter of 
seeing
> things clearly. It doesn't mean you're Superman.
>

What bar is there that one needs to pass under/over to be enlightened?








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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

Title: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

on 3/2/06 1:38 PM, Vaj at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Well let's not take these two items out of context. The nail story of Vimalananda refers to a person who claimed the ability to be in a certain type of samadhi. The fact that he did experience pain in that style of samadhi only means he was not really in that style of samadhi. It really says little about enlightenment per se.

The lack of casting of the shadow describes a certain aspect of unity, but is only really relevant in a style of enlightenment where the karmic supports for the physical body are transforming. And it's extremely rare, let alone witnessed. Nonetheless it's an occurrence I like to mention when britches get too many sizes too big.

So is there a state which you would feel comfortable labeling “enlightenment” which doesn’t necessarily include these extraordinary states and abilities, and which normal folks might attain after 30-40 years of regular spiritual practice?

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

On Mar 2, 2006, at 1:39 PM, Rick Archer wrote:but I have a hard time believing that people like Eckhart Tolle and Bernadette Roberts are not enlightened merely because they couldn't be oblivious to having a nail driven through their foot or that they cast a shadow. I think he's raising the bar too high. Seems to me that enlightenment is a matter of seeing things clearly. It doesn't mean you're Superman. Well let's not take these two items out of context. The nail story of Vimalananda refers to a person who claimed the ability to be in a certain type of samadhi. The fact that he did experience pain in that style of samadhi only means he was not really in that style of samadhi. It really says little about enlightenment per se.The lack of casting of the shadow describes a certain aspect of unity, but is only really relevant in a style of enlightenment where the karmic supports for the physical body are transforming. And it's extremely rare, let alone witnessed. Nonetheless it's an occurrence I like to mention when britches get too many sizes too big.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

2006-03-02 Thread TurquoiseB

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> on 3/2/06 12:45 PM, TurquoiseB at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > 
> > I don't think it's like that. I don't think it's *ever*
> > been like that. Shankara farted and shat just like
> > everyone else does.
> 
> I read that he had an anal fistula that bled and caused 
> him a great deal of discomfort.

Probably as a result of so many people poking
him with nails.  :-)

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

on 3/2/06 12:45 PM, TurquoiseB at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> I don't think it's like that. I don't think it's *ever*
> been like that. Shankara farted and shat just like
> everyone else does.

I read that he had an anal fistula that bled and caused him a great deal of
discomfort.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

2006-03-02 Thread jim_flanegin

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
 Seems to me that enlightenment is a matter of seeing
> things clearly. It doesn't mean you're Superman.
>
That's as good and elegant a definition as I've heard-- seeing things 
clearly. Plain and simple.

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

on 3/2/06 11:57 AM, jim_flanegin at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  perhaps I felt it in bad
>> form to talk of my own pointing-out and recognition, brag about it
> in  
>> public or discuss the details of how the View was tested and
>> verified? I know it's all the rage, discussing of "experiences" and
>> so on--but didn't you ever wonder about those who knew the point of
>> non-discussion of experience?
>> 
> Just want to add that in my case I am not bragging. What is there to
> brag about? 
> 
> The reasons I discuss my experience of awakening openly is, one,
> because there is an opportunity to do so, where at least some of the
> folks reading understand what is being discussed, and two, I
> personally feel that it is important to let people know that ordinary
> chumps, like me, can achieve such a state.

Good point. I respect Vaj's knowledge and experience, but I have a hard time
believing that people like Eckhart Tolle and Bernadette Roberts are not
enlightened merely because they couldn't be oblivious to having a nail
driven through their foot or that they cast a shadow. I think he's raising
the bar too high. Seems to me that enlightenment is a matter of seeing
things clearly. It doesn't mean you're Superman.

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

Title: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness





on 3/2/06 11:14 AM, Vaj at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Would you like to see the scar on my ass? 

I'd love to show that to you! :-)

Reminds me of Forrest Gump and LBJ.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness...

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  wrote:
> >
> > so who regularly disses who for what claim of experience or non-
> > experience? My own take on people who claim to be in full-blown 
> > brahman consciousness is that MMY has, from what Ihave heard, 
said 
> > that someone who is fully in Unity (and brahman con. transcends 
> > Unity, I hear) can manifest any ole siddhi he chooses to. That 
being 
> > the case, anyone who claims Brahman Consciousness should have had 
at 
> > least one full-blown experience of floating for 5-30 mintues 
while 
> > practicing the Yogic FLying technique since, even if the TM-
Sidhis 
> > techniques are entirely bogus, mere intent is all that is 
required 
> > for someone in Unity to perform a siddhi.
> 
> Someday you should learn to take what "Maharishisez" with
> the necessary shaker of salt. AFAIK, he is pretty much
> *alone* in the spiritual world at suggesting this "criterion"
> for full enlightenment. *History* certainly doesn't agree
> with him; it is full of people who have been regarded as
> fully enlightened, and who have *never* exhibited any of
> the siddhis.
> 
> It's an apples and oranges thang, but even more so. The
> siddhis have absolutely nothing to do with enlightenment.
> The apples come from Venus and enlightenment comes from
> Mars. :-) Many non-enlightened people can perform the 
> siddhis and many enlightened people cannot. The *only*
> reason Maharishi tried to suggest a link between the
> two is that he was trying to SELL the siddhis as a 
> pathway to enlightenment.

Gee, Barry, you seem to have inadvertently deleted
what Lawson was responding to from your post.  Let
me help you out and restore it:

> Gotta agree. And it ain't just here...it's a fairly
> universal trend in spiritual groups. Those who say
> that they have experienced the goal that is shared
> by pretty much the entire group (for example,
> enlightenment) are regularly dissed by those in
> the group who have not had such an experience.
> One would think they'd be happy that someone is
> actually getting what they paid for, but the
> reality is sadly often the opposite.

Now read what Lawson wrote again, *in response to 
what you wrote*, and see if you can figure out why
your comment here is a complete non sequitur.

Hint: Look closely at the first sentence of Lawson's
response.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness...

2006-03-01 Thread TurquoiseB

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> so who regularly disses who for what claim of experience or non-
> experience? My own take on people who claim to be in full-blown 
> brahman consciousness is that MMY has, from what Ihave heard, said 
> that someone who is fully in Unity (and brahman con. transcends 
> Unity, I hear) can manifest any ole siddhi he chooses to. That being 
> the case, anyone who claims Brahman Consciousness should have had at 
> least one full-blown experience of floating for 5-30 mintues while 
> practicing the Yogic FLying technique since, even if the TM-Sidhis 
> techniques are entirely bogus, mere intent is all that is required 
> for someone in Unity to perform a siddhi.

Someday you should learn to take what "Maharishisez" with
the necessary shaker of salt. AFAIK, he is pretty much
*alone* in the spiritual world at suggesting this "criterion"
for full enlightenment. *History* certainly doesn't agree
with him; it is full of people who have been regarded as
fully enlightened, and who have *never* exhibited any of
the siddhis.

It's an apples and oranges thang, but even more so. The
siddhis have absolutely nothing to do with enlightenment.
The apples come from Venus and enlightenment comes from
Mars. :-) Many non-enlightened people can perform the 
siddhis and many enlightened people cannot. The *only*
reason Maharishi tried to suggest a link between the
two is that he was trying to SELL the siddhis as a 
pathway to enlightenment.

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness...

2006-03-01 Thread Vaj

On Mar 1, 2006, at 10:53 PM, sparaig wrote:--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Mar 1, 2006, at 5:39 PM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer wrote: on 2/28/06 10:32 AM, wmurphy77 at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: YOu would be correct if you were talking about the Gita where MMY talks about many 'births' to realize Being, that is death to materiality and Resurrection in Spirit and back being ONE birth, but this is NOT what Charlie was suggesting. BillyG. And who's to say Charlie knew what he was talking about? Nice guy and all that, but anyone can regurgitate what they've read in esoteric books. Which is what Vaj and company think MMY has done, except they also say that he's uneducated in the "real" ways of spirituality, etc. I've never claimed M. regurgitated what he read in esoteric books. OR what he was "coached" to say. You like being literalist, don't you? I could care less either way.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness...

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> On Mar 1, 2006, at 5:39 PM, sparaig wrote:
> 
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer 
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> on 2/28/06 10:32 AM, wmurphy77 at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >>>
> >>> YOu would be correct if you were talking about the Gita where 
MMY
> >>> talks about many 'births' to realize Being, that is death to
> >>> materiality and Resurrection in Spirit and back being ONE 
birth, but
> >>> this is NOT what Charlie was suggesting.  BillyG.
> >>
> >> And who's to say Charlie knew what he was talking about? Nice 
guy and
> > all
> >> that, but anyone can regurgitate what they've read in esoteric 
books.
> >>
> >
> > Which is what Vaj and company think MMY has done, except they 
also say
> > that he's uneducated in the "real" ways of spirituality, etc.
> 
> I've never claimed M. regurgitated what he read in esoteric books.
>

OR what he was "coached" to say. You like being literalist, don't you?





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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..

Which only speaks to YOUR experience and not that of some other person, 
of course.

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I would hasten to point out that I have also experienced satsangs  
> which were very positive and evolutionary in my mere opinion. The  
> previous only refers to what I've experienced in a 
more  "neoadvaita"  
> kind of gathering.
> 
> On Mar 1, 2006, at 11:50 AM, feste37 wrote:
> 
> > Very nice post. Satsang as a way of weaving ever more subtle self- 
> > delusions.
> > Not being much of a Satsanger, I wouldn't know for sure, but it  
> > sounds very
> > plausible.
>

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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> On Mar 1, 2006, at 11:38 AM, Patrick Gillam wrote:
> 
> > --- Rick Archer  wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> jim_flanegin  wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>> Just curious Rick if you would elaborate on "the Robin Carlson
> >>> legacy". Thanks
> >>>
> >>
> >> It's quite a story, and I don't have time to tell it at length,  
> >> but about 25
> >> years ago Canadian Governor Robin Carlson proclaimed that he was
> >> enlightened, set himself up as a "World Teacher," and attracted 
a  
> >> lot of
> >> converts from the movement, especially in Fairfield.
> >>
> >
> > Suzanne Segal wrote about Robin Carlson (though
> > she gave him a different name) in her book, "Collision
> > with the Infinite." As I recall, he doesn't come across
> > looking too good.
> 
> In the 80's, I was invited by three close friends--an old TM 
teacher,  
> an MIU grad and a Sidha, to confront Robin Woodsworth Carlsen who 
was  
> then living in an apartment in Washington DC. It was actually my  
> first time at debunking a claim of enlightenment, but when it was 
all  
> over and done, we were all convinced this man was without a doubt, 
a  
> fraud.
>

Can't speak to the state of enlightenment of anyone, but given that 
the guy no longer makes any such claims and now is a devout Roman 
Catholic, it seems taht whatever he thought he had or claimed he had 
or whatever, didn't stick.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jyouells2000" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "markmeredith2002"
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> "I don't know if this is true about the Travis studies, but it used 
to
> be policy at MUM that any study reg. higher states could only be 
done
>  using subjects with valid dome badges -- the idea of someone 
without
> a valid badge having enlightened experiences was not acceptable."
> 
> 
> 
> That is such an unbelievable hoot! Talk about unbiased science
>:-)  I guess it has to do with who pays 
the
> bills.
> 
> 
> JohnY
>

OF course, it could also be that they only wanted to examine 
peoplewho were ONLY practicing TM and the TM sidhis. In fact, were I 
to want to set up a study on TMers examining the longterm effects of 
TM, rather than a longintudinal randomized study, etc., I would 
probably use those people as well. They're the most likely to be 
rgular, most likely to have positive results, and most likely to only 
be practicing TM and the TM-sidhis.

And, as long as you make it clear in your study that you're selecting 
from a self-selected group of people, there's absolutely nothing 
unethical or unscientific about using such a group.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> on 3/1/06 10:02 AM, jim_flanegin at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer
> >  wrote:
> >> 
> >> on 3/1/06 9:06 AM, authfriend at jstein@ wrote:
> >>> 
> >>> FWIW, I've never encountered it in TM, to the
> >>> contrary.  What I've observed has been a
> >>> tendency to be deferential to those who
> >>> claimed or were rumored to be enlightened.
> >> 
> >> In certain quarters of Fairfield, especially MUM, people don't
> > dare claim
> >> enlightenment publicly. Probably due to fears created by the 
Robin
> > Carlson
> >> legacy. However, Fred Travis has been quietly studying people, 
but
> > those
> >> people wouldn't dare go public.
> >> 
> > Just curious Rick if you would elaborate on "the Robin Carlson
> > legacy". Thanks
> 
> It's quite a story, and I don't have time to tell it at length, but 
about 25
> years ago Canadian Governor Robin Carlson proclaimed that he was
> enlightened, set himself up as a "World Teacher," and attracted a 
lot of
> converts from the movement, especially in Fairfield. This made a 
lot of
> people around here very leery about anyone who proclaims their
> enlightenment. The attitude seems to be that "real" enlightenment 
is a very
> lofty goal that ordinary chumps like us are very unlikely to have 
attained,
> and that shouldn't be considered genuine unless Maharishi confirms 
it, which
> he never does, and that if you've got something good going on, you 
should
> keep it to yourself or let Fred Travis study you privately.
>

I think the helicopters buzzing the campus taking pictures; the jeeps 
running over the flowerbeds chasing people; etc; also had something 
to do with people's perception that Robin Carlson and followers were 
a tad unballanced...






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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jyouells2000" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer 
> wrote:
> >
> > on 3/1/06 9:06 AM, authfriend at jstein@ wrote:
> > > 
> > > FWIW, I've never encountered it in TM, to the
> > > contrary.  What I've observed has been a
> > > tendency to be deferential to those who
> > > claimed or were rumored to be enlightened.
> > 
> > In certain quarters of Fairfield, especially MUM, people don't 
dare
> claim
> > enlightenment publicly. Probably due to fears created by the Robin
> Carlson
> > legacy. However, Fred Travis has been quietly studying people, 
but those
> > people wouldn't dare go public.
> >
> 
> Is Fred in MUM's good graces, (still on the reservation, on the
> program, studying or supported under the MUM umbrella, etc. ?

He's the director of the EEG lab at MUM and one of the guys that 
tours with David Lynch.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> on 3/1/06 9:06 AM, authfriend at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > 
> > FWIW, I've never encountered it in TM, to the
> > contrary.  What I've observed has been a
> > tendency to be deferential to those who
> > claimed or were rumored to be enlightened.
> 
> In certain quarters of Fairfield, especially MUM, people don't dare 
claim
> enlightenment publicly. Probably due to fears created by the Robin 
Carlson
> legacy. However, Fred Travis has been quietly studying people, but 
those
> people wouldn't dare go public.
>

And in the TM context, why would they? By MMY's instructions to TM 
teachers, passed along to the rank and file meditators, claiming 
enlightenment, at least inthe TMO context, can often lead to negative 
consequences, and one assumes, seldom to positive ones.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness...

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> On Feb 28, 2006, at 11:05 PM, purushaz wrote:
> 
> > ---Statement below (Enlightened person has an option to stop 
pain) is
> > incorrect.  Enlightenment does not imply particular (or any) 
Siddhis,
> > which have to do with relative endeavors..  Why stop with control 
over
> > pain?  Why not say that Enlightened people can fly through the 
air 108
> > miles?  Show me a text that Enlightened people can control pain 
and
> > I'll swallow some nails.
> 
> The original story referred to people in a particular style of 
samadhi.
>

What style was that? The guy was giving a lecture, was he not?

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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness...

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend"  
wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wmurphy77  
wrote:
> > > >
> > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj  wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > 
> > > > > On Feb 27, 2006, at 7:41 PM, wmurphy77 wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > > That is the most realistic estimate any TM'er (Charlie 
> Lutes) 
> > > > ever  
> > > > > > gave
> > > > > > to how long it would take to *start* functioning from the 
> > > *home* 
> > > > of  
> > > > > > all
> > > > > > the laws of nature!! Even MMY himself said it would take 
a 
> > > million
> > > > > > years to reach CC (at Fuiggi) unless you go to courses.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > To suggest a few thousand *rice converts* could be 
> recruited, 
> > > > given a
> > > > > > mantra and some good thoughts to think along with it, 
could 
> > > create
> > > > > > world peace is wishful thinking to say the least!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Very few TM'ers have even *fully* transended *once* much 
> less 
> > > even
> > > > > > function from that subtle level. When I mean transcend, I 
> mean
> > > > > > transcend...TO SAMADHI! (Look it up in the book)
> > > > > 
> > > > > The true definition of "Cosmic Consciousness" is samadhi 
> > > 24/7/365 --
> > > >   
> > > > > so what does that tell you about their promises about 
> > > enlightenment?
> > > > > 
> > > > > I like the way Vimalananda figured it out: if someone is in 
> > > > samadhi  
> > > > > there are ways to tell. John Hagelin or Bevan Morris (or 
> > > actually  
> > > > > Brigante might be the right man for this job) if you are 
> > > > listening,  
> > > > > try the following on Mahesh Varma next time you are in 
close  
> > > > > proximity while he is meditating or doing a sankalpa, etc. 
> > > > Consider  
> > > > > it part of a science experiment to see if people can really 
> > > place  
> > > > > their consciousness in the Unified Field of all the laws of 
> > > > nature.  
> > > > > This could also be performed on others claiming Cosmic 
> > > > Consciousness  
> > > > > or higher:
> > > > > 
> > > > > The Aghori Vimalananda, spiritual mentor of Robert Svoboda 
> was 
> > > > well  
> > > > > learned in the ways of karma and also very passionate about 
> > > > testing  
> > > > > and uncovering the falsity of saints and teachers who 
> > > > overestimated  
> > > > > their own spiritual stature. Robert Svoboda 
reports, "Almost 
> > > > without  
> > > > > exception, every time he ran across somebody who he thought 
> was 
> > > > too  
> > > > > big for his spiritual britches, he regarded it as being 
his  
> > > > > responsibility to ensure that they came down towards earth, 
> if 
> > > not  
> > > > > all the way down to the ground." The following story was 
told 
> > by  
> > > > > Vimalananda to Robert Svoboda about how he "tested" an 
> Indian  
> > > > > spiritual teacher named Taat Maharaj.
> > > > > 
> > > > > "I was hard on Taat Maharaj ... One of my friends brought 
me 
> to 
> > > > Taat  
> > > > > Maharaj by telling me he could sit in samadhi for hours at 
a 
> > > time  
> > > > > while his followers sang and chanted. I didn't believe it, 
so 
> I 
> > > > went  
> > > > > to have his darshana (the viewing of a saint or deity). 
Sure 
> > > > enough,  
> > > > > I could see that he was merely closing his eyes and fooling 
> > > > everyone.  
> > > > > On top of that I was supposed to bow down to him! While I 
> > waited  
> > > > > there I examined the room carefully and came up with a 
plan. 
> > Back 
> > > > at  
> > > > > home I sharpened the point of a long iron nail until it was 
> > > razor  
> > > > > sharp. A few days later I returned to Taat Maharaj and got 
> into 
> > > > the  
> > > > > line to touch his lotus feet. When I got to the head of the 
> > line 
> > > I  
> > > > > bent down, raised the nail high above my head, and jabbed 
it 
> > into 
> > > > his  
> > > > > foot. My God! What a howl came from that charlatan! His 
> > > bellowings  
> > > > > even drowned out the warbles of his singers.
> > > > > 
> > > > > "Wouldn't most people have responded to a nail in the foot 
> even 
> > > if  
> > > > > they were in samadhi?"
> > > > > 
> > > > > No, not if the samadhi is genuine. A person who is in 
samadhi 
> > has 
> > > > no  
> > > > > knowledge whatsoever of the outside world so long as he 
> remains 
> > > in  
> > > > > samadhi. If Taat Maharaj had actually been in samadhi he 
> would 
> > > > have  
> > > > > felt nothing from that nail, not even a pinprick. But he 
was 
> > > just  
> > > > > pretending, so he felt it all. Everyone was so stunned that 
I 
> > > had  
> > > > > time to rush out the door to where an accomplice was 
waiting 
> in 
> > > > the  
> > > > > getaway car, and off we sped. I don't like to think about 
> what 
> > > > might  
> > > > > have h

[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness...

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "purushaz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> ---Statement below (Enlightened person has an option to stop pain) is
> incorrect.  Enlightenment does not imply particular (or any) Siddhis,
> which have to do with relative endeavors..  Why stop with control over
> pain?  Why not say that Enlightened people can fly through the air 108
> miles?  Show me a text that Enlightened people can control pain and
> I'll swallow some nails.  

SOmeone in Unity is supposed to be able to perform any/all siddhis, but 
why does the failure to perform a specific siddhi in a given instance 
(assuming that not-screaming when someone drives a nail in your foot is 
a siddhi) a sign that you can't do it?

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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness...

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> On Feb 28, 2006, at 12:48 PM, authfriend wrote:
> 
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB  
wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" 
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, t3rinity  
wrote:
> >>>
> 
>  That's it. That was also Papaji's point stating too many
>  are hanging around already too long.
> 
> >>>
> >>> Yes, many would rather wallow in the inertia of their 'seeker'
> >>> identity, proclaiming enlightenment can't be so, because of
> >>> this, and that, and the other thing...
> >>>
> >>
> >> Gotta agree. And it ain't just here...it's a fairly
> >> universal trend in spiritual groups. Those who say
> >> that they have experienced the goal that is shared
> >> by pretty much the entire group (for example,
> >> enlightenment) are regularly dissed by those in
> >> the group who have not had such an experience.
> >> One would think they'd be happy that someone is
> >> actually getting what they paid for, but the
> >> reality is sadly often the opposite.
> >>
> >
> > In other words, when someone claims to be enlightened,
> > we should just accept it without question?
> 
> Or what if you were familiar with the state people were describing/ 
> conveying/satsanging and knew it as "other than" the big E?
>

HOw do you know that their description matches your experience?






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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness...

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > > > > In other words, when someone claims to be enlightened,
> > > > > we should just accept it without question?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > If I say I have brown hair, why is that so much easier to 
accept,
> > > > than if I say I am enlightened?
> > > 
> > > Nice analogy. I get a sense of brown either way! Dude, 
> > > I'm in Brahman!
> > 
> > Oh c'mon Vaj- no one ever *really* gets enlightened, EVER, 
> > except select Great Buddhist Masters...you are deluding 
> > yourself. Any 'commoner' who claims such a thing is 
> > obviously just on an ego trip. Wake up!
> 
> And the wonderful thing, from a Chaplinesque point
> of view, is that the same thing was true for the 
> select Great Buddhist Masters of old. Everyone in
> *their* ashrams dissed them, too. 

LIke MMY and SBS's cook, you mean?

> 
> The 'Chaplinesque' reference above relates to a 
> favorite quote of mine from Charlie Chaplin. I 
> ran across it again earlier today and it's been
> in the back of my mind ever since. The quote is:
> "Life is a tragedy in closeup, but a comedy in
> long shot." I just *love* this quote. As he did
> in his films, he manages to express a great truth
> about life with great precision, but also with
> great economy.
> 
> I mean, the tragedy of it all is that seekers on
> a legitimate pathway to enlightenment often tend
> to diss their fellow seekers who claim to have 
> experienced it. But the comedy of it all is that 
> seekers on a legitimate pathway to enlightenment 
> often tend to diss their fellow seekers who claim 
> to have experienced it. It's a real hoot if you
> get far enough back from the phenomenon.
>






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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness...

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> On Feb 28, 2006, at 12:48 PM, authfriend wrote:
> 
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB  
wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" 
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, t3rinity  
wrote:
> >>>
> 
>  That's it. That was also Papaji's point stating too many
>  are hanging around already too long.
> 
> >>>
> >>> Yes, many would rather wallow in the inertia of their 'seeker'
> >>> identity, proclaiming enlightenment can't be so, because of
> >>> this, and that, and the other thing...
> >>>
> >>
> >> Gotta agree. And it ain't just here...it's a fairly
> >> universal trend in spiritual groups. Those who say
> >> that they have experienced the goal that is shared
> >> by pretty much the entire group (for example,
> >> enlightenment) are regularly dissed by those in
> >> the group who have not had such an experience.
> >> One would think they'd be happy that someone is
> >> actually getting what they paid for, but the
> >> reality is sadly often the opposite.
> >>
> >
> > In other words, when someone claims to be enlightened,
> > we should just accept it without question?
> 
> Or what if you were familiar with the state people were describing/ 
> conveying/satsanging and knew it as "other than" the big E?
>

As oppsed to some other state with which you are familiar?







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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness...

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB  
> wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin"  
> > wrote:
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend"  
> > > wrote:
> > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB  
> > wrote:
> > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" 
> >  
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, t3rinity 

> > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > That's it. That was also Papaji's point stating too 
many 
> > > > > > > are hanging around already too long.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Yes, many would rather wallow in the inertia of 
> > > > > > their 'seeker' 
> > > > > > identity, proclaiming enlightenment can't be so, because 
> of 
> > > > > > this, and that, and the other thing...
> > > > > 
> > > > > Gotta agree. And it ain't just here...it's a fairly
> > > > > universal trend in spiritual groups. Those who say
> > > > > that they have experienced the goal that is shared
> > > > > by pretty much the entire group (for example, 
> > > > > enlightenment) are regularly dissed by those in
> > > > > the group who have not had such an experience.
> > > > > One would think they'd be happy that someone is
> > > > > actually getting what they paid for, but the 
> > > > > reality is sadly often the opposite.
> > > > 
> > > > In other words, when someone claims to be enlightened,
> > > > we should just accept it without question?
> > >
> > > If I say I have brown hair, why is that so much easier 
> > > to accept, than if I say I am enlightened?
> > 
> > It's inconsistent!!! Way back in one of your early
> > posts, you described your hair color as *light*
> > brown!!! So either you were LYING one of those
> > times, or you are deluding yourself as to the
> > real color of your hair!!!
> > 
> > Not to *mention* the fact that several other people
> > here who say that they have had enlightenment exper-
> > iences do *not* have brown hair. Where is the 
> > consistency in that? You are clearly delusional
> > about your hair color!!!
> > 
> > :-)
> >
> *LOL*!!!
>

http://www.scg.uwaterloo.ca/~hchcheng/collection_math_jokes.html

Lemma: All horses are the same color.

Proof (by induction):

Case n=1: In a set with only one horse, it is obvious that all horses 
in that set are the same color.

Case n=k: Suppose you have a set of k+1 horses. Pull one of these 
horses out of the set, so that you have k horses. Suppose that all of 
these horses are the same color. Now put back the horse that you took 
out, and pull out a different one. Suppose that all of the k horses 
now in the set are the same color. Then the set of k+1 horses are all 
the same color. We have k true => k+1 true; therefore all horses are 
the same color.

Theorem: All horses have an infinite number of legs.

Proof (by intimidation):

Everyone would agree that all horses have an even number of legs. It 
is also well-known that horses have forelegs in front and two legs in 
back. 4 + 2 = 6 legs, which is certainly an odd number of legs for a 
horse to have! Now the only number that is both even and odd is 
infinity; therefore all horses have an infinite number of legs.

However, suppose that there is a horse somewhere that does not have 
an infinite number of legs. Well, that would be a horse of a 
different color; and by the Lemma, it doesn't exist.

   QED
Jerry Weldon, Livermore Labs

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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness...

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> on 2/28/06 11:40 AM, Vaj at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >>> 
> >>>  
> >> 
> >> Yes, many would rather wallow in the inertia of their 'seeker' 
> >>  
> >> 
> >> identity, proclaiming enlightenment can't be so, because of 
this, and 
> >>  
> >> 
> >> that, and the other thing... 
> >>  
> > 
> > What if they didn't fall for the 'intertia of the seeker' lie?
> > 
> > I love that story though!
> 
> CC = Carrot Consciousness
>

CC = Glorified Ignorance.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness...

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin"  
> wrote:
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, t3rinity  wrote:
> > >
> > > That's it. That was also Papaji's point stating too many 
> > > are hanging around already too long.
> > 
> > Yes, many would rather wallow in the inertia of their 'seeker' 
> > identity, proclaiming enlightenment can't be so, because of 
> > this, and that, and the other thing...
> 
> Gotta agree. And it ain't just here...it's a fairly
> universal trend in spiritual groups. Those who say
> that they have experienced the goal that is shared
> by pretty much the entire group (for example, 
> enlightenment) are regularly dissed by those in
> the group who have not had such an experience.
> One would think they'd be happy that someone is
> actually getting what they paid for, but the 
> reality is sadly often the opposite.
>

so who regularly disses who for what claim of experience or non-
experience? My own take on people who claim to be in full-blown 
brahman consciousness is that MMY has, from what Ihave heard, said 
that someone who is fully in Unity (and brahman con. transcends 
Unity, I hear) can manifest any ole siddhi he chooses to. That being 
the case, anyone who claims Brahman Consciousness should have had at 
least one full-blown experience of floating for 5-30 mintues while 
practicing the Yogic FLying technique since, even if the TM-Sidhis 
techniques are entirely bogus, mere intent is all that is required 
for someone in Unity to perform a siddhi.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness...

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wmurphy77 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin"  
> wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wmurphy77  wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer 
>  
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > on 2/28/06 10:32 AM, wmurphy77 at [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > YOu would be correct if you were talking about the Gita 
where 
> > MMY
> > > > > talks about many 'births' to realize Being, that is death to
> > > > > materiality and Resurrection in Spirit and back being ONE 
> > birth, but
> > > > > this is NOT what Charlie was suggesting.  BillyG.
> > > > 
> > > > And who's to say Charlie knew what he was talking about? Nice 
> > guy and 
> > > all
> > > > that, but anyone can regurgitate what they've read in 
esoteric 
> > books.
> > > 
> > > Like I said Rick7 lifetimes is the best *estimate* I've 
ever 
> > heard 
> > > anyone give for the amount of time it will take for the average 
> > bear to 
> > > reach CC...
> > > 
> > > per, MMY's Gita, one has to be able to submerge into Spirit 
(TC) 
> > fully 
> > > before the cloth in the yellow dye analogy really takes full 
> > effect, 
> > > then indeed CC is not far away.
> > >
> > In my experience, TM seekers don't have a problem with fully 
> > submerging into TC, rather it is how to translate that 
> transcendence 
> > into action, without over intellectualizing it, that creates 
> > resistance to fully integrating TC.
> 
> I'll have to say, Jim, unless you've experienced SAT-Chit-Ananda 
you 
> haven't been transcending fully to Samadhi, that is, Savikalpa 
> Samadhi as MMY describes it in the Gita..this is NOT, I repeat 
> NOT something you EVER forget.  If you think you have NO thoughts 
and 
> NO mantra, but have NO blissyou are NOT in Samadhi as MMY 
> describes it!
>

er, MMY also says that Bliss isn't blissful.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness...

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wmurphy77  wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer 

> > wrote:
> > >
> > > on 2/28/06 10:32 AM, wmurphy77 at [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > YOu would be correct if you were talking about the Gita where 
> MMY
> > > > talks about many 'births' to realize Being, that is death to
> > > > materiality and Resurrection in Spirit and back being ONE 
> birth, but
> > > > this is NOT what Charlie was suggesting.  BillyG.
> > > 
> > > And who's to say Charlie knew what he was talking about? Nice 
> guy and 
> > all
> > > that, but anyone can regurgitate what they've read in esoteric 
> books.
> > 
> > Like I said Rick7 lifetimes is the best *estimate* I've ever 
> heard 
> > anyone give for the amount of time it will take for the average 
> bear to 
> > reach CC...
> > 
> > per, MMY's Gita, one has to be able to submerge into Spirit (TC) 
> fully 
> > before the cloth in the yellow dye analogy really takes full 
> effect, 
> > then indeed CC is not far away.
> >
> In my experience, TM seekers don't have a problem with fully 
> submerging into TC, rather it is how to translate that 
transcendence 
> into action, without over intellectualizing it, that creates 
> resistance to fully integrating TC.
>

So how does this work or not work? PLenty of people over-
intellectualize/mood-make, but what aspect of TM practice and the TM 
program (rest followed by dynamic activity) creates such resistance?

Of course, I've seen plenty of people misinterpret virtually 
any/every possible aspect of MMY's teachings.

One former TMer I know used to prioritize his TM-Siddhis program 
thusly: if he only had a few minutes, yogic flying was the only thing 
he did. If he had more time, he'd do the other sutras. If he had 
enough time, he'd do TM first. When I told him that seemed bass-
ackward he got huffy and told me that no-one ever taught himthat TM 
was more important than Yogic Flying.

He also got mad at the TMO for not providing him with sufficient 
opportunity to make a living with the ayruvedic technician stuff that 
he had learned. Of course, when he returned from his initial training 
course, he not only never bothered to practice taking other people's 
pulse but didn't bother to take his own, so he obviously had a great 
understanding of what he was taught.

People hear what they want to, regardless of what they're actually 
told.

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness...

2006-03-01 Thread Vaj



On Mar 1, 2006, at 5:39 PM, sparaig wrote:--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  wrote:  on 2/28/06 10:32 AM, wmurphy77 at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  YOu would be correct if you were talking about the Gita where MMY talks about many 'births' to realize Being, that is death to materiality and Resurrection in Spirit and back being ONE birth, but this is NOT what Charlie was suggesting.  BillyG.  And who's to say Charlie knew what he was talking about? Nice guy and  all that, but anyone can regurgitate what they've read in esoteric books.   Which is what Vaj and company think MMY has done, except they also say  that he's uneducated in the "real" ways of spirituality, etc. I've never claimed M. regurgitated what he read in esoteric books.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..

--- In 
FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> In a conversation I had with a priest in a Tamil temple he suggested
> that dong the Sidhis can burn off 7 lifetimes of Karma in one liftime.
> Go figure. Makes some sense to me. Tom T
>

One commentary on the siddhis that I have seen says "10 thousand 
lifetimes of sin burned away OR incurred," depending...

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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness...

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wmurphy77 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer  
> wrote:
> >
> > on 2/28/06 10:32 AM, wmurphy77 at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > > 
> > > YOu would be correct if you were talking about the Gita where 
MMY
> > > talks about many 'births' to realize Being, that is death to
> > > materiality and Resurrection in Spirit and back being ONE 
birth, but
> > > this is NOT what Charlie was suggesting.  BillyG.
> > 
> > And who's to say Charlie knew what he was talking about? Nice guy 
and 
> all
> > that, but anyone can regurgitate what they've read in esoteric 
books.
> 
> Like I said Rick7 lifetimes is the best *estimate* I've ever 
heard 
> anyone give for the amount of time it will take for the average 
bear to 
> reach CC...
> 
> per, MMY's Gita, one has to be able to submerge into Spirit (TC) 
fully 
> before the cloth in the yellow dye analogy really takes full 
effect, 
> then indeed CC is not far away.
>

But MMY's description of the growth towards CC using TM says that you 
could transcend clearly every day for 20 years and not be as close to 
CC as someone who has never transcended clearly/noticeably during 
that same period.

Or, in a nutshell:

Woman on TTC: Maharishi, I feel so guilty: here I am trying to learn 
to teach people to transcend and yet I have never transcended.
Maharishi: Doesn't matter. Go back to meditating.
[some days later]
Woman on TTC: Maharishi, I feel so guilty: here I am trying to learn 
to teach people to transcend and yet I have never transcended.
Maharishi: Doesn't matter. Go back to meditating.
[some days later]
Woman on TTC: Maharishi, I feel so guilty: here I am trying to learn 
to teach people to transcend and yet I have never transcended.
Maharishi: Doesn't matter. Go back to meditating.
[some days later]
[...]
Woman on TTC: Maharishi! Maharishi! I did it! I did it. I 
transcendened!!!
Maharishi: Doesn't matter. Go back to meditating.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..

2006-03-01 Thread authfriend

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> On Mar 1, 2006, at 12:39 PM, Rick Archer wrote:
> 
> > on 3/1/06 10:57 AM, Vaj at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >
> >> I would hasten to point out that I have also experienced satsangs  
> >> which were very positive and evolutionary in my mere opinion. The  
> >> previous only refers to what I've experienced in a more   
> >> "neoadvaita" kind of gathering.
> >>
> > Were you referring to the one in Fairfield?
> 
> Given the very public nature of FFL, and the repercussions common  
> here, it's probably best to keep specifics private.

However, we have learned that at least one of these
groups strayed from TM-speak with "absolute
infrequency":

"One disconcerting thing that was obvious very soon and persisted 
throughout these sessions was the almost absolute infrequency with 
which descriptions ever strayed outside of either established TM-speak 
or advaito-speak. It was almost absolutely a closed loop: no freshness 
or newness. Although it seemed as if newness and freshness could be 
contrived, it was unconvincing compared to the freshness of the natural 
state."

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[FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness...