Re: [Audyssey] disrespect for gamers: was Re: Lunimals version 2.5b
or someone will convert them to bgt or something. We will probably see more game collections. At 07:10 p.m. 10/06/2011, you wrote: If a future version of windows ends up being completely incompatible with VB6 applications, that's fine with me. If people really do get cut off from their favorite VB6 games, someone will just produce the windows X VB6 software emulator, or something along those lines. If there is a demand to play the old, unsupported games, someone will always be there to make it work. Sitting here with my modern PC, I can play everything from old DOS games to my favorite console games, all because people wanted to be able to play the classic games on the new hardware. I see no reason some future windows X would break this tradition. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] disrespect for gamers: was Re: Lunimals version 2.5b
If a future version of windows ends up being completely incompatible with VB6 applications, that's fine with me. If people really do get cut off from their favorite VB6 games, someone will just produce the windows X VB6 software emulator, or something along those lines. If there is a demand to play the old, unsupported games, someone will always be there to make it work. Sitting here with my modern PC, I can play everything from old DOS games to my favorite console games, all because people wanted to be able to play the classic games on the new hardware. I see no reason some future windows X would break this tradition. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] disrespect for gamers: was Re: Lunimals version 2.5b
the problem with a lot of emulation, is there's an ease of use factor. Dosbox is neither easy to use nor accessible, though many of the people who use it are extremely tech orientated and for instance would reguard setting cpu cycles and knowing which amoutn of virtual memory to alocate as a simple thing, where as average jo who back in doss days could've just shoved in a disk or typed run program name is a bit stuck. Some easy to use console emulators do exist, but I've certainly found this is not the case with a lot of things. Of course, if a dev or similar is a reasonable person, they might create something which is easier to use, for instance all the old dos graphical games I have such as the prince of persia totalpack are run with preconfigured versions of dosbox, which pretty much turns them into windows applications that you just run as a standard program. This is i think why games like eamon are not played anymore, sinse aple amulation is a pain in the neck, while the infocom games can be run with litle trouble. The problem is, if someone were to be nostalgic enough to create a vb6 emulator, odds are they wouldn't themselves be as open to the possibility of it being used by people who might never have played the old games but just want to try them out on a modern machine, which is afterall what most people want. Btw, I stil say the best way to play old console games is simply to own the console, but then again I'm very fond of my snes, indeed I even have a copy of kirby's dreamland, produced for original gameboy in 1986, and stil! playable on the gameboy player for the gamecube. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Jeremy Kaldobsky jer...@kaldobsky.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, June 10, 2011 8:10 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] disrespect for gamers: was Re: Lunimals version 2.5b If a future version of windows ends up being completely incompatible with VB6 applications, that's fine with me. If people really do get cut off from their favorite VB6 games, someone will just produce the windows X VB6 software emulator, or something along those lines. If there is a demand to play the old, unsupported games, someone will always be there to make it work. Sitting here with my modern PC, I can play everything from old DOS games to my favorite console games, all because people wanted to be able to play the classic games on the new hardware. I see no reason some future windows X would break this tradition. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] disrespect for gamers: was Re: Lunimals version 2.5b
Nice, some understanding in what's to come. At 12:26 AM 6/10/2011, you wrote: Hi Charles and Jeremy. Charles, on the new windows 7 machines, some dos programs stop working or have random errors. This is because the machine's architecture have changed too much to run them like a normal program. A dos mode is emulated by the machine, which doesn't always give the expected results, as there as so many things that could go wrong with an emulation. Jeremy, it's not a question if it won't work, I'm telling you visual basic applications won't work on any arm-based machine as things stand. This is because arm processors use a different instruction set that is not compattible with intel's x86 or x64 instruction set. I'm pretty sure microsoft won't recompile the visual basic libraries. They already refused to include the vb libraries in windows 7 even though they were compatible. On 6/9/11, Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net wrote: Are there games that are designed to be played using DOS that absolutely cannot be played on most systems? How long ago was it said that DOS would be no more? How about a paperless society with the advent of being able to send files to one another? We now use more paper than ever before. --- Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to heart. - Original Message - From: Jeremy Kaldobsky jer...@kaldobsky.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2011 4:24 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] disrespect for gamers: was Re: Lunimals version 2.5b I understand that the issue is about users being able to play the game. For many years, since Microsoft first stopped supporting VB6, people have been saying that any day no one will be able to use software written with it. Obviously with each passing year this gets closer to the truth, but we have different opinions on the seriousness of this problem right now. As I've said, when things change, I'll re-evaluate my position on the languages I use. You're probably right that the next generation of windows won't support VB6 at all, but then again, you might be wrong. Before Vista released, many people told me that it would be impossible to run VB6 applications on it, and it didn't turn out that way. It's entirely possible that some small change will allow VB6 apps to run on Windows X, just as it has allowed Windows Vista and Windows 7 users to run them. If not, then that's life and we will deal with the new situation. We are both playing a guessing game, clearly some of you guess that all VB6 titles will be lost forever, and I am guessing that probably won't be the case, or at least I'm not so convinced that I'm willing to change how I'm currently doing things. Dennis, when you say people can't play the games, I assume you mean the theoretical date when some new windows absolutely can't run VB6 games. As things stand at the moment, I'm unaware of any version of windows (2000 and later) that can't run VB6 games. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] disrespect for gamers: was Re: Lunimals version 2.5b
I don't have doubts about it. When they drop the runtimes for it in a op. Means that it may run if you put them in, but leaving them out only means the next version won't run them at all. Then you are locked out. Its just like tellidisk. That program will only run on pre xp. So don't say things to keep on or someone makes them. Software does get left behind. At 05:24 PM 6/9/2011, you wrote: I understand that the issue is about users being able to play the game. For many years, since Microsoft first stopped supporting VB6, people have been saying that any day no one will be able to use software written with it. Obviously with each passing year this gets closer to the truth, but we have different opinions on the seriousness of this problem right now. As I've said, when things change, I'll re-evaluate my position on the languages I use. You're probably right that the next generation of windows won't support VB6 at all, but then again, you might be wrong. Before Vista released, many people told me that it would be impossible to run VB6 applications on it, and it didn't turn out that way. It's entirely possible that some small change will allow VB6 apps to run on Windows X, just as it has allowed Windows Vista and Windows 7 users to run them. If not, then that's life and we will deal with the new situation. We are both playing a guessing game, clearly some of you guess that all VB6 titles will be lost forever, and I am guessing that probably won't be the case, or at least I'm not so convinced that I'm willing to change how I'm currently doing things. Dennis, when you say people can't play the games, I assume you mean the theoretical date when some new windows absolutely can't run VB6 games. As things stand at the moment, I'm unaware of any version of windows (2000 and later) that can't run VB6 games. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] disrespect for gamers: was Re: Lunimals version 2.5b
That's very true when it comes to mainstream emulators. I was making the assumption that people from the audio games community would be responsible for programming the emulators. In a case like that, accessibility would of course be the central theme. There are some pretty skilled programmers around here, and I think many would jump at the chance to write a single program to become the hero, who reunited everyone with their favorite games which were no longer compatible. Just my assumption, of course. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] disrespect for gamers: was Re: Lunimals version 2.5b
Hi Jeremy, I for one do understand your position, and you are right. Nobody knows for sure when VB 6 applications will stop being able to run on Windows X. I guess the real question I and others have here is why use VB 6 at all when there are newer solutions out there like C# .Net or VB .Net which have replaced VB 6 on modern Windows operating systems? This being my personal opinion, but I've always felt that VB .Net is a major improvement over VB 6 as it has improved Object Oriented Programming, a powerful development API based on the .Net Framework, and the fact the .Net Framework is a cross-platform runtime environment often saves a developer from having to recompile his/her code for a different target platform. Assuming the app doesn't use any third-party libraries that require a specific CPU or target flags many apps can be compiled for an Any CPU target platform and run on 32-bit and 64-bit Windows platforms without having to be recompiled. In fact, I've even wrote some VB .Net apps that run on Linux just fine using the latest Mono Framework as well. I think these features are a necessity in todays computing environment. So my question here is what does VB 6 have, that makes it better than VB .Net, and why you personally want to pick that over VB .Net? Understand my question isn't here to insult you, make you upset, etc, but I'm seaking information. I merely want to know what lead you to your decision. I think I could respect your position more if you could give me examples and reasons for them rather than saying this is what I like to use, and not back it up with your reasons why you like it. Both of us are technically educated men, both have skills programming, I respect that, but we've also come to different conclusions on what technologies are right for the todays platforms. I'd just like to know where you stand on this issue, and why you are so passionate about VB 6 when I think there are much better technologies available. In any case I can clearly see you have decided on using VB 6. That's fine, but if you are going to use VB 6 at least try and stick to established standards and use DirectX 8. Most of the VB developers out here GMA, Jim Kitchen, BSC, you name it have all moved to DirectX 8 years ago and that is pretty much the norm and standard. Most of us are going to install DirectX 8 anyway for those games. I personally see it as a convenience if you would switch to DirectX 8 and use the same standards and libraries everyone else is using. Can you at least do that for us? Cheers! On 6/9/11, Jeremy Kaldobsky jer...@kaldobsky.com wrote: I understand that the issue is about users being able to play the game. For many years, since Microsoft first stopped supporting VB6, people have been saying that any day no one will be able to use software written with it. Obviously with each passing year this gets closer to the truth, but we have different opinions on the seriousness of this problem right now. As I've said, when things change, I'll re-evaluate my position on the languages I use. You're probably right that the next generation of windows won't support VB6 at all, but then again, you might be wrong. Before Vista released, many people told me that it would be impossible to run VB6 applications on it, and it didn't turn out that way. It's entirely possible that some small change will allow VB6 apps to run on Windows X, just as it has allowed Windows Vista and Windows 7 users to run them. If not, then that's life and we will deal with the new situation. We are both playing a guessing game, clearly some of you guess that all VB6 titles will be lost forever, and I am guessing that probably won't be the case, or at least I'm not so convinced that I'm willing to change how I'm currently doing things. Dennis, when you say people can't play the games, I assume you mean the theoretical date when some new windows absolutely can't run VB6 games. As things stand at the moment, I'm unaware of any version of windows (2000 and later) that can't run VB6 games. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the
Re: [Audyssey] disrespect for gamers: was Re: Lunimals version 2.5b
Hi Willem, While I agree with you about the arm processors I think continuing this discussion, argument, debate, whatever you want to call it is pointless. Jeremy, Jim, and the other VB 6 developers have their opinions and we have ours. Arguing about it on list for days on end isn't going to change anyones mind. Time will settle the argument one way or another. On 6/10/11, Willem Venter dwill...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Charles and Jeremy. Charles, on the new windows 7 machines, some dos programs stop working or have random errors. This is because the machine's architecture have changed too much to run them like a normal program. A dos mode is emulated by the machine, which doesn't always give the expected results, as there as so many things that could go wrong with an emulation. Jeremy, it's not a question if it won't work, I'm telling you visual basic applications won't work on any arm-based machine as things stand. This is because arm processors use a different instruction set that is not compattible with intel's x86 or x64 instruction set. I'm pretty sure microsoft won't recompile the visual basic libraries. They already refused to include the vb libraries in windows 7 even though they were compatible. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] disrespect for gamers: was Re: Lunimals version 2.5b
Hi Charles, I hate to burst your bubble but I can think of several older games I once played in the 90's on Windows 3.1, Windows 95, and Dos that will not, can not, and can't be made to run properly on Windows 7. For instance, I had a collection of pinball games that played in MS Dos. I loved those games. If you clicked on the icon in Windows 3.1 or Windows 95 it would exit Windows and load the games in Dos. The games seemed to work fine clear up to Windows 98. I tried them on Windows XP using Dos EMU, Dosbox, etc and they just wouldn't run at all. I sincerely doubt trying them on Windows 7 would be any better. In a very memerable case I once tried playing an old Dos version ofWheel of Fortune on Windows XP. When I ran wheel.exe thegame asked for my name, selected a puzzle, and then selected the computer player as player 1. Next thing I heard was the Wheel of Fortune music playing at an extremely fast rate and happily told me that player 1 had completed the puzzl, and then crashed giving me some error message. In all I think from start of game to the crash the game ran perhaps two or three seconds. It definitely wasn't made to run on Windows XP and a 1.2 GHZ processor that's for sure. The issue isn't just limited to Dos games either. I have a number of games that worked fine on Windows 95, but I can't get them to run on Windows 7 for various reasons. One game in particular, Star Trek Borg, was one of my favorites, but because it wasn't regularly maintained won't runon anything beyond Windows 98, and only then if you have the upgrade from the Windows 95 version to the 98 version. Otherwise it won't run on anything else. So while some here might think my fears are baseless I've got good reason for feeling exactly as I do. I have seen my share of Dos and Windows games become less and less compatible with newer versions of Windows precisely do to the fact that the developers chose not to upgrade, patch, or maintain their games even when it became clear they wouldn't run on newer platforms. HTH On 6/9/11, Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net wrote: Are there games that are designed to be played using DOS that absolutely cannot be played on most systems? How long ago was it said that DOS would be no more? How about a paperless society with the advent of being able to send files to one another? We now use more paper than ever before. --- Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to heart. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] disrespect for gamers: was Re: Lunimals version 2.5b
What a bubble buster you are. Hmm. Sounds like a game on the Pac Mate. It doesn't bother me, though, because you make good points, as usual. Thanks. --- Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to heart. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, June 10, 2011 6:02 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] disrespect for gamers: was Re: Lunimals version 2.5b Hi Charles, I hate to burst your bubble but I can think of several older games I once played in the 90's on Windows 3.1, Windows 95, and Dos that will not, can not, and can't be made to run properly on Windows 7. For instance, I had a collection of pinball games that played in MS Dos. I loved those games. If you clicked on the icon in Windows 3.1 or Windows 95 it would exit Windows and load the games in Dos. The games seemed to work fine clear up to Windows 98. I tried them on Windows XP using Dos EMU, Dosbox, etc and they just wouldn't run at all. I sincerely doubt trying them on Windows 7 would be any better. In a very memerable case I once tried playing an old Dos version ofWheel of Fortune on Windows XP. When I ran wheel.exe thegame asked for my name, selected a puzzle, and then selected the computer player as player 1. Next thing I heard was the Wheel of Fortune music playing at an extremely fast rate and happily told me that player 1 had completed the puzzl, and then crashed giving me some error message. In all I think from start of game to the crash the game ran perhaps two or three seconds. It definitely wasn't made to run on Windows XP and a 1.2 GHZ processor that's for sure. The issue isn't just limited to Dos games either. I have a number of games that worked fine on Windows 95, but I can't get them to run on Windows 7 for various reasons. One game in particular, Star Trek Borg, was one of my favorites, but because it wasn't regularly maintained won't runon anything beyond Windows 98, and only then if you have the upgrade from the Windows 95 version to the 98 version. Otherwise it won't run on anything else. So while some here might think my fears are baseless I've got good reason for feeling exactly as I do. I have seen my share of Dos and Windows games become less and less compatible with newer versions of Windows precisely do to the fact that the developers chose not to upgrade, patch, or maintain their games even when it became clear they wouldn't run on newer platforms. HTH On 6/9/11, Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net wrote: Are there games that are designed to be played using DOS that absolutely cannot be played on most systems? How long ago was it said that DOS would be no more? How about a paperless society with the advent of being able to send files to one another? We now use more paper than ever before. --- Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to heart. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] disrespect for gamers: was Re: Lunimals version 2.5b
Hi Jeremy, I'm not sure how old you are or what your experience is with mainstream games in general, but let me give you a little bit of background on why I am so extremely concerned about your decision here. However, first, let me just say my fears about VB 6 apps not running on Windows X may or may not be unfounded, but I have a lifetime of practical experience that tells me that basing all of your projects on an outdated language like VB 6 is not a wise decision. Here is why. I started out on the Atari 2600 clear back in the 1980's, moved onto the NES in the late 80's, and eventually to Dos and Windows in the 90's. While you are perfectly right to argue that there are good Atari, NES, and Dos emulators that will play most of those older games I also know those are not perfect solutions. I've lost count of the number of the games I use to play that aren't compatible with any emulator, and won't run on Windows 7 just because of one reason or another. Its that fear of seeing this same thing happen to the accessible games market why I choose to try and insure my code is as up to date and compatible with the current operating systems as possible, and hope to prevent my fellow developers from making what I see as a big mistake. As a developer the last thing I would want to do is have to rewrite all of my games from scratch, because I chose badly and based my games on an older outdated technology. For instance, lets assume I went out and purchased a new netbook with an arm processor. As willem has accurately explained it is not compatible with the Intel x86 and x64 processors so those apps won't run on that netbook without being recompiled. If I used VB 6 I couldn't target arm processors specifically because Microsoft doesn't offer VB 6 libraries for that target platform. I would be forced into rewriting the entire game or application from scratch to support that target platform all because I didn't take that into consideration ahead of time. There are a number of other choices I could have made like .Net, Java, or C++ that would allow me to quite easily adapt to the change without a lot of unnecessary work. This is exactly the sort of problem I foresee comming in the not to distant future. Which poses a question. You say that when things change you will reconsider your position, and change the way you do things. Fair enough, but does that mean that you will rewrite and update every single game you have written to insure they all work on the new target platform or will you decide to abandon all your older games and start over with new games? That's not an easy decision for a developer, and not one I would take lightly if I were you. You have written some truly decent games, and I'd hate to see you abandon them if it so happens they are no longer compatible with Windows X or the new netbooks with arm processors. At the same time I wouldn't want to be the one who had to rewrite all of those games from scratch since they weren't written with a little more future consideration beyond the current status quo in mind. Maybe my concerns are right or they are wrong, but is it really worthth taking that risk? Cheers! On 6/9/11, Jeremy Kaldobsky jer...@kaldobsky.com wrote: I understand that the issue is about users being able to play the game. For many years, since Microsoft first stopped supporting VB6, people have been saying that any day no one will be able to use software written with it. Obviously with each passing year this gets closer to the truth, but we have different opinions on the seriousness of this problem right now. As I've said, when things change, I'll re-evaluate my position on the languages I use. You're probably right that the next generation of windows won't support VB6 at all, but then again, you might be wrong. Before Vista released, many people told me that it would be impossible to run VB6 applications on it, and it didn't turn out that way. It's entirely possible that some small change will allow VB6 apps to run on Windows X, just as it has allowed Windows Vista and Windows 7 users to run them. If not, then that's life and we will deal with the new situation. We are both playing a guessing game, clearly some of you guess that all VB6 titles will be lost forever, and I am guessing that probably won't be the case, or at least I'm not so convinced that I'm willing to change how I'm currently doing things. Dennis, when you say people can't play the games, I assume you mean the theoretical date when some new windows absolutely can't run VB6 games. As things stand at the moment, I'm unaware of any version of windows (2000 and later) that can't run VB6 games. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can
Re: [Audyssey] disrespect for gamers: was Re: Lunimals version 2.5b
Thomas, after more than one of my responses to this subject, people have told me I was overly sensitive. That being said, what on earth has made your advice so important to you, that you seem incapable, or just unwilling, to give it up? Over and over you have stated your thoughts about what I Should be doing differently, and even though I have taken the time to acknowledge you and explain I will stay my chosen course, this same advice is continually brought up and rammed down my throat. I hope you aren't this pushy in everyday life! If you believe someone should choose paper, over plastic, at the grocery store do you follow them through the parking lot lecturing them until their car door closes in your face? If my decision was your business, I would understand better, but my God, this has gone far over the line of what is acceptable. You have asked for specific reasons so that you might better understand why I am doing things how I am, but honestly I'm so annoyed at this point, I don't even care to humor you. Why, this far into being badgered, would I care if you better understand my side? Should I feel compelled to explain myself more just so I can sleep at night, knowing Thomas finally accepts the direction I'm going? Sorry to seem rude, but I couldn't give a flying rats behind if anyone else agrees with how I choose to do things. As of this moment, I'm not dignifying this subject with any more of my time. If you don't like how I do things, don't play my games. Following this, my final post on this subject, many people will write me off as being upset over nothing. For those people, go back and read every message ever sent to me about writing games in VB6, the sheer number of the same people pushing themselves on to me, might help you understand my position. I am a pretty patient man, but I'm done with this. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] disrespect for gamers: was Re: Lunimals version 2.5b
Hi Ken, With the ut most respect here let me say that I personally never intended to be disrespectful to you, Geremy, or Jim over the issue of what programming language you use. However, I can't help but feel that if you would head over to Book Share and grab a couple books on Visual Basic .Net and learn the language your games would be better off for it in the long run. While I don't currently have the time to write a game in VB .Net for demonstration purposes I could send you books on the language if you were interested in looking at VB .Net. Besides that, you really should read a few books on .Net anyway, because no single open source application can teach you all the ins and outs of the .Net API. There are thousands of classes that wrap the Win32 API and to write anything you should probably have a decent understanding of what libraries are available, what they do, and what classes are available to you as a new .Net developer. Handing you a simple application like Chopper Patrol written in VB .Net will only scratch the surface of what is available to you. Please, consider that as constructive criticism rather than merely grinding your nose into the fact VB 6 is old, outdated, etc. As for myself I don't really care what you guys do any more. Since I've pretty much replaced all my computers here at home with Linux rather than Windows what language you guys use doesn't effect me personally. I'm working on getting all of the current Windows games I have to work using Wine 1.3 for Linux, and if a Windows game won't run on Wine I'm probably not going to play it or buy it. As it happens Wine works pretty decently with VB 6 applications and as long as that is the case I can't complain too much about the games being written in VB 6. As for giving up and quitting that's definitely not the way to handle the situation. Especially, if you like what you are doing personally. People have complained about some of the things I have done as well like spending time writing MOTA and the G3D Engine in C# .Net and then changing to C++ mid way through the development process. Recently I switched over to FMOD 4.34 for audio output and people are complaining about the fact it doesn't sound like DirectSound. they may have some valid points, but I no longer let their complaints bother me. I'm doing what I'm doing for personal reasons, and people can either like it or lump it. I'm moving towards a cross-platform design so I can play my games on Ubuntu Linux, which I use 90% of the time, and if FMOD doesn't pan exactly like Directsound that's just too bad I'm not going back to Windows. So I do understand why and how you feel upset about having your nose being constantly ground into the fact you are using VB 6 rather than VB .Net. Its not easy doing something that goes against popular opinion. On 6/9/11, The Addictor kenwdow...@neo.rr.com wrote: Isn't funny how many people want to jump down our throats for using vb6, when our games are free? When somebody makes a game, or games, there should be a hundred times as much gratitude and constructive criticism than there is complaining and negative criticism, but it's the other way round most of the time. I have been brought to the edge of simply stopping programming, just because people here are so gung-ho against vb6. We devs--most of us anyway, are very well aware how out-dated vb6 is, that Microsoft doesn't support it, (as if that matters much since they're constantly disarranging their software to make it better,) and so on. Found a bug? Great--tell us about it. Got a way for the game to work better? That's great, but stop grinding our noses into the fact that vb6 is so old. Jim Kitchen, Jeremy and I use it, and it's what we know. Sorry if this causes discomfort and inconvenience. For my part, if a great open-source audio game comes out in vb.net, I'll look at it and eventually switch over, since I know how versatile .net is and so on. Until then, I'm happy to use vb6, and I'm not in a hurry to rush around and change up everything right away, especially since I make my games mainly for my own enjoyment, as do my colleagues. If I were trying to sell these games, the complaints about using outdated software would be relevant, but I'm not. (The exception, of course, is Phrase Madness, but that's written in Basic4PPC and uses .net framework, so it's up to spec--relatively.) Also, since I'm venting, there is one other thing I have to point out, and that is this. Even if a game is abandonware, it's not cool to just modify it without the programmer's concent. Damage Extreme is an attempt to make Enemy Attack even funner to play, and I would have gladly concented to the rewriting of it, but I wasn't asked, nor was the work I did on Enemy Attack even mentioned anywhere in the game. I'm not one who cares about such things in general, but this is different. It's not about feeling ticked because my name wasn't on the credits
Re: [Audyssey] disrespect for gamers: was Re: Lunimals version 2.5b
Hi Ken and Jeremy, Yeah, I still do not know what the big deal is about us programming our games in VB6. I mean installing my winkit.zip file is minuscule and simple to do as compared to needing to install the 300 meg latest net frame work and the very latest DirectX. But hey I have been creating blind accessible games for over 20 years and found out a very long time ago that I need to have a thick skin because no matter what I do, I am not going to totally please every one. But I am very happy in that I always have and still do get allot of very positive feedback from my games. Now not always from the Audyssey list, but in private Email and phone calls. That is not to say that I don't from the Audyssey list as well, but... I am still having fun creating games and plan to keep on doing so for the foreseeable future. Lets all just have fun and get along. grin BFN Jim Kitchen's Inc, for games that are up to 110 percent funner to play. j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] disrespect for gamers: was Re: Lunimals version 2.5b
Hi Jim, Smile. I can answer that question with a question of my own. The problem is simply this. Its true that your games can be played on Windows XP, Vista, and Windows 7 currently by installing your Winkit setup. That's all well and good. Question is, when some of these newer technologies are mainstream and Windows X will no longer run your games what will you do about it? That's the problem. We don't want to attack you, put you down, but question your desire to use VB 6 under those circomstances. Its our worry/concern that one day sooner or later we are all going to not be able to play any of your games on a modern PC because changes in technology will require you to personally upgrade and change the way you do things or we have to simply stop playing your games. NOw, since all of your games are free you are under no obligation to do anything for us let alone give us a game at all. However, it does seem like a shame if I or someone else were to upgrade to Windows X only to find none of your games work any more, and you have no desire to upgrade to the new technology. Does that clarify our position for you? also before I close I want to make a little note about .Net. Its true for Windows XP users that they may have to install a 300 MB update simply because .Net does not ship with XP by default. However, were you using Windows 7 that would not be an issue/problem since .Net 4.0 is integrated directly into the OS and is preinstalled by default. So where I have to install something extra to run VB 6 apps on Windows 7 I don't have to install anything at all to run VB .Net apps as the .Net stuff ships with Windows 7. HTH On 6/9/11, Jim Kitchen j...@kitchensinc.net wrote: Hi Ken and Jeremy, Yeah, I still do not know what the big deal is about us programming our games in VB6. I mean installing my winkit.zip file is minuscule and simple to do as compared to needing to install the 300 meg latest net frame work and the very latest DirectX. But hey I have been creating blind accessible games for over 20 years and found out a very long time ago that I need to have a thick skin because no matter what I do, I am not going to totally please every one. But I am very happy in that I always have and still do get allot of very positive feedback from my games. Now not always from the Audyssey list, but in private Email and phone calls. That is not to say that I don't from the Audyssey list as well, but... I am still having fun creating games and plan to keep on doing so for the foreseeable future. Lets all just have fun and get along. grin BFN Jim Kitchen's Inc, for games that are up to 110 percent funner to play. j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] disrespect for gamers: was Re: Lunimals version 2.5b
i do see where you come from Jim, but its a lost cause and here is why. I got one game that I liked called PZ98. Now that was a very nice game to play and have spent hours and even days at that tank. I had a problem with getting it running and Phil and Kelley took the time to get mine working. I can get it to work on everything but win7. It will run but not how it was made to run. That my friend is where you will be sitting. Your stuff works now but is getting very short time All the time spent bitching about it could of ben spent looking at .net or anything being used today. A rock that don't move gets no moss but a lot of bird... At 06:26 AM 6/9/2011, you wrote: Hi Ken and Jeremy, Yeah, I still do not know what the big deal is about us programming our games in VB6. I mean installing my winkit.zip file is minuscule and simple to do as compared to needing to install the 300 meg latest net frame work and the very latest DirectX. But hey I have been creating blind accessible games for over 20 years and found out a very long time ago that I need to have a thick skin because no matter what I do, I am not going to totally please every one. But I am very happy in that I always have and still do get allot of very positive feedback from my games. Now not always from the Audyssey list, but in private Email and phone calls. That is not to say that I don't from the Audyssey list as well, but... I am still having fun creating games and plan to keep on doing so for the foreseeable future. Lets all just have fun and get along. grin BFN Jim Kitchen's Inc, for games that are up to 110 percent funner to play. j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] disrespect for gamers: was Re: Lunimals version 2.5b
Jim has put out a lot of free fun for blind gamers as a hobby over the years, and I think we should appreciatively let him continue his endeavours as he sees fit. if a game doesn't work on your system, don't get it. Shepherds are the best beasts! On Jun 9, 2011, at 7:12 AM, Trouble troub...@columbus.rr.com wrote: i do see where you come from Jim, but its a lost cause and here is why. I got one game that I liked called PZ98. Now that was a very nice game to play and have spent hours and even days at that tank. I had a problem with getting it running and Phil and Kelley took the time to get mine working. I can get it to work on everything but win7. It will run but not how it was made to run. That my friend is where you will be sitting. Your stuff works now but is getting very short time All the time spent bitching about it could of ben spent looking at .net or anything being used today. A rock that don't move gets no moss but a lot of bird... At 06:26 AM 6/9/2011, you wrote: Hi Ken and Jeremy, Yeah, I still do not know what the big deal is about us programming our games in VB6. I mean installing my winkit.zip file is minuscule and simple to do as compared to needing to install the 300 meg latest net frame work and the very latest DirectX. But hey I have been creating blind accessible games for over 20 years and found out a very long time ago that I need to have a thick skin because no matter what I do, I am not going to totally please every one. But I am very happy in that I always have and still do get allot of very positive feedback from my games. Now not always from the Audyssey list, but in private Email and phone calls. That is not to say that I don't from the Audyssey list as well, but... I am still having fun creating games and plan to keep on doing so for the foreseeable future. Lets all just have fun and get along. grin BFN Jim Kitchen's Inc, for games that are up to 110 percent funner to play. j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] disrespect for gamers: was Re: Lunimals version 2.5b
Hi, Yes, I agree that Jim's games are fun. I started with them when I started playing games for the blind. But, you said if the game can't work on your system don't get it. The problem is that in a year, two or three, there will be noone that uses the systems that are popular now. Who of you is using windows 98? And if someone is using it, why? That's why the gamers are talking about that. They only want the developers to go ahead and do their job, but noone will want to remain with Win 95 or earlier only because of a game. Best regards! Milos Przic msn: milos.pr...@gmail.com skype: Milosh-hs - Original Message - From: Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2011 3:49 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] disrespect for gamers: was Re: Lunimals version 2.5b Jim has put out a lot of free fun for blind gamers as a hobby over the years, and I think we should appreciatively let him continue his endeavours as he sees fit. if a game doesn't work on your system, don't get it. Shepherds are the best beasts! On Jun 9, 2011, at 7:12 AM, Trouble troub...@columbus.rr.com wrote: i do see where you come from Jim, but its a lost cause and here is why. I got one game that I liked called PZ98. Now that was a very nice game to play and have spent hours and even days at that tank. I had a problem with getting it running and Phil and Kelley took the time to get mine working. I can get it to work on everything but win7. It will run but not how it was made to run. That my friend is where you will be sitting. Your stuff works now but is getting very short time All the time spent bitching about it could of ben spent looking at .net or anything being used today. A rock that don't move gets no moss but a lot of bird... At 06:26 AM 6/9/2011, you wrote: Hi Ken and Jeremy, Yeah, I still do not know what the big deal is about us programming our games in VB6. I mean installing my winkit.zip file is minuscule and simple to do as compared to needing to install the 300 meg latest net frame work and the very latest DirectX. But hey I have been creating blind accessible games for over 20 years and found out a very long time ago that I need to have a thick skin because no matter what I do, I am not going to totally please every one. But I am very happy in that I always have and still do get allot of very positive feedback from my games. Now not always from the Audyssey list, but in private Email and phone calls. That is not to say that I don't from the Audyssey list as well, but... I am still having fun creating games and plan to keep on doing so for the foreseeable future. Lets all just have fun and get along. grin BFN Jim Kitchen's Inc, for games that are up to 110 percent funner to play. j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6192 (20110609) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6192 (20110609) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo
Re: [Audyssey] disrespect for gamers: was Re: Lunimals version 2.5b
All the more reason to keep one perfectly working older PC aound. Eveything doesn't have to be upgraded. Think of it as a blind person's game machine, so to speak? Shepherds are the best beasts! On Jun 9, 2011, at 6:25 AM, Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Jim, Smile. I can answer that question with a question of my own. The problem is simply this. Its true that your games can be played on Windows XP, Vista, and Windows 7 currently by installing your Winkit setup. That's all well and good. Question is, when some of these newer technologies are mainstream and Windows X will no longer run your games what will you do about it? That's the problem. We don't want to attack you, put you down, but question your desire to use VB 6 under those circomstances. Its our worry/concern that one day sooner or later we are all going to not be able to play any of your games on a modern PC because changes in technology will require you to personally upgrade and change the way you do things or we have to simply stop playing your games. NOw, since all of your games are free you are under no obligation to do anything for us let alone give us a game at all. However, it does seem like a shame if I or someone else were to upgrade to Windows X only to find none of your games work any more, and you have no desire to upgrade to the new technology. Does that clarify our position for you? also before I close I want to make a little note about .Net. Its true for Windows XP users that they may have to install a 300 MB update simply because .Net does not ship with XP by default. However, were you using Windows 7 that would not be an issue/problem since .Net 4.0 is integrated directly into the OS and is preinstalled by default. So where I have to install something extra to run VB 6 apps on Windows 7 I don't have to install anything at all to run VB .Net apps as the .Net stuff ships with Windows 7. HTH On 6/9/11, Jim Kitchen j...@kitchensinc.net wrote: Hi Ken and Jeremy, Yeah, I still do not know what the big deal is about us programming our games in VB6. I mean installing my winkit.zip file is minuscule and simple to do as compared to needing to install the 300 meg latest net frame work and the very latest DirectX. But hey I have been creating blind accessible games for over 20 years and found out a very long time ago that I need to have a thick skin because no matter what I do, I am not going to totally please every one. But I am very happy in that I always have and still do get allot of very positive feedback from my games. Now not always from the Audyssey list, but in private Email and phone calls. That is not to say that I don't from the Audyssey list as well, but... I am still having fun creating games and plan to keep on doing so for the foreseeable future. Lets all just have fun and get along. grin BFN Jim Kitchen's Inc, for games that are up to 110 percent funner to play. j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] disrespect for gamers: was Re: Lunimals version 2.5b
Hi, That's exactly the issue in a nutshell. Its not that I or anyone else has any particular issue with VB 6 and/or the developers that use it, other than the fact that some day every single program written in that language will stop working and the developer is going to have to deal with that reality sooner or later. Unfortunately, as the majority of accessible games are based on VB 6 if we, as a community don't take steps to upgrade now, there may come a day when Windows X will no longer run any games written in VB 6 and then what will we do? The same argument can apply to Directplay, Directsound, and a number of other APIs that are now deprecated. Yes, they currently still work on Windows 7 now, but don't expect that state of affairs to last forever. The one and only reason they still work is Microsoft is trying to maintain backward compatibility with XP era software and many of their libraries are their for compatibility reasons rather than active development. When XP goes out of support so will DirectX 8 and a number of APIs that came with XP. Rather than wining about it the smart thing is to start looking at updating to something current now. Cheers! On 6/9/11, Trouble troub...@columbus.rr.com wrote: i do see where you come from Jim, but its a lost cause and here is why. I got one game that I liked called PZ98. Now that was a very nice game to play and have spent hours and even days at that tank. I had a problem with getting it running and Phil and Kelley took the time to get mine working. I can get it to work on everything but win7. It will run but not how it was made to run. That my friend is where you will be sitting. Your stuff works now but is getting very short time All the time spent bitching about it could of ben spent looking at .net or anything being used today. A rock that don't move gets no moss but a lot of bird... --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] disrespect for gamers: was Re: Lunimals version 2.5b
Hi Charles, The problem with that approach is that the system won't last forever. The older the PC the harder it is to get parts for it if it breaks down, and I've seen enough PCs die over my lifetime to know it is often more expensive to fix it than it is to throw it away and buy a new e-machine. Which is really the problem here. A persons XP machine that works fine today, can be retired as a gaming machine, while the owner goes out and buys a new Windows 7 64-bit machine with the works. Maybe that lasts a couple of years, and then the old XP machine breaks down. The problem here is that the hardware is rapidly changing all the time and you can't just go to Best Buy and get compatible hardware. You may have to hit Ebay and get a used piece of hardware or pay extra for an unused older piece of hardware to replace the one in the broken down PC. Wouldn't it be simplar if the game or application was regularly maintained by the developer so you could just install it on Windows 7 64-bit and forget the other XP machine? Cheers! On 6/9/11, Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net wrote: All the more reason to keep one perfectly working older PC aound. Eveything doesn't have to be upgraded. Think of it as a blind person's game machine, so to speak? Shepherds are the best beasts! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] disrespect for gamers: was Re: Lunimals version 2.5b
The problem with old pcs are that they break sooner or later. I am currently studying and there is simply no space for two computers in my room -original message- Subject: Re: [Audyssey] disrespect for gamers: was Re: Lunimals version 2.5b From: Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net Date: 09/06/2011 4:05 pm All the more reason to keep one perfectly working older PC aound. Eveything doesn't have to be upgraded. Think of it as a blind person's game machine, so to speak? Shepherds are the best beasts! On Jun 9, 2011, at 6:25 AM, Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Jim, Smile. I can answer that question with a question of my own. The problem is simply this. Its true that your games can be played on Windows XP, Vista, and Windows 7 currently by installing your Winkit setup. That's all well and good. Question is, when some of these newer technologies are mainstream and Windows X will no longer run your games what will you do about it? That's the problem. We don't want to attack you, put you down, but question your desire to use VB 6 under those circomstances. Its our worry/concern that one day sooner or later we are all going to not be able to play any of your games on a modern PC because changes in technology will require you to personally upgrade and change the way you do things or we have to simply stop playing your games. NOw, since all of your games are free you are under no obligation to do anything for us let alone give us a game at all. However, it does seem like a shame if I or someone else were to upgrade to Windows X only to find none of your games work any more, and you have no desire to upgrade to the new technology. Does that clarify our position for you? also before I close I want to make a little note about .Net. Its true for Windows XP users that they may have to install a 300 MB update simply because .Net does not ship with XP by default. However, were you using Windows 7 that would not be an issue/problem since .Net 4.0 is integrated directly into the OS and is preinstalled by default. So where I have to install something extra to run VB 6 apps on Windows 7 I don't have to install anything at all to run VB .Net apps as the .Net stuff ships with Windows 7. HTH On 6/9/11, Jim Kitchen j...@kitchensinc.net wrote: Hi Ken and Jeremy, Yeah, I still do not know what the big deal is about us programming our games in VB6. I mean installing my winkit.zip file is minuscule and simple to do as compared to needing to install the 300 meg latest net frame work and the very latest DirectX. But hey I have been creating blind accessible games for over 20 years and found out a very long time ago that I need to have a thick skin because no matter what I do, I am not going to totally please every one. But I am very happy in that I always have and still do get allot of very positive feedback from my games. Now not always from the Audyssey list, but in private Email and phone calls. That is not to say that I don't from the Audyssey list as well, but... I am still having fun creating games and plan to keep on doing so for the foreseeable future. Lets all just have fun and get along. grin BFN Jim Kitchen's Inc, for games that are up to 110 percent funner to play. j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You
Re: [Audyssey] disrespect for gamers: was Re: Lunimals version 2.5b
Hi Charles and all, the issue has nothing to do with appreciation. I certainly appreciate all the work Jim does, and like several of his games. Its actually the fact because I appreciate those games I want to see them improved and made to meet current development standards and practices. Saying the games don't work on Windows X so don't upgrade is simply not an answer for most people. Given a choice I would upgrade and forget about the games, but it would certainly be better to upgrade and still be able to play the games too. In a sense I've already done that. You all know I am running Linux not Windows on my laptop, and am currently looking at getting various games running under the Windows emulator, wine, and if that doesn't pan out so be it. I'm not going to cry over not playing various games I can't take with me. Obviously, though, I want to keep and play as many games as I can. Bottom line, given a choice of buying a new PC with Windos X on it or sticking with Windows XP for the rest of their life to play Jim's games isn't a contest. I'd say most people would buy the new PC and request Jim upgrade his games, but playing his games wouldn't stop them from upgrading in and of itself. Cheers! On 6/9/11, Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net wrote: Jim has put out a lot of free fun for blind gamers as a hobby over the years, and I think we should appreciatively let him continue his endeavours as he sees fit. if a game doesn't work on your system, don't get it. Shepherds are the best beasts! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] disrespect for gamers: was Re: Lunimals version 2.5b
That is what happened to many dos games. People simply stopped playing them because it was too hard to run them. There is always emulation, but to mention an example, running a game like shades of doom under wine is a no go, because the game crashes when you open a door. -original message- Subject: Re: [Audyssey] disrespect for gamers: was Re: Lunimals version 2.5b From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com Date: 09/06/2011 4:40 pm Hi Charles and all, the issue has nothing to do with appreciation. I certainly appreciate all the work Jim does, and like several of his games. Its actually the fact because I appreciate those games I want to see them improved and made to meet current development standards and practices. Saying the games don't work on Windows X so don't upgrade is simply not an answer for most people. Given a choice I would upgrade and forget about the games, but it would certainly be better to upgrade and still be able to play the games too. In a sense I've already done that. You all know I am running Linux not Windows on my laptop, and am currently looking at getting various games running under the Windows emulator, wine, and if that doesn't pan out so be it. I'm not going to cry over not playing various games I can't take with me. Obviously, though, I want to keep and play as many games as I can. Bottom line, given a choice of buying a new PC with Windos X on it or sticking with Windows XP for the rest of their life to play Jim's games isn't a contest. I'd say most people would buy the new PC and request Jim upgrade his games, but playing his games wouldn't stop them from upgrading in and of itself. Cheers! On 6/9/11, Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net wrote: Jim has put out a lot of free fun for blind gamers as a hobby over the years, and I think we should appreciatively let him continue his endeavours as he sees fit. if a game doesn't work on your system, don't get it. Shepherds are the best beasts! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] disrespect for gamers: was Re: Lunimals version 2.5b
Hi Tom, It's all just a matter of personal preference, in my opinion. Computers aren't half as fun without any games. To be honest I'm not a big Windows fan myself, but it's what I'm used to and have been brought up with. After playing with a copy of Vinux and a friend's Mac I came to the conclusion that I'd be better sticking with Windows. Not only from a games point of view, but interfaces, development, familiarity etc. Even after playing around with a Vista computer I didn't like that as much as XP. I can't speak for Windows 7 since I have never tried it, but if a game that I spent a lot of time playing didn't work on Windows 7 I wouldn't even consider upgrading. Most of my days are spent playing if not making games, therefore I'd be lost if I upgraded and a game didn't work as expected. Just because I make my own games doesn't mean that I'm going to stop playing games that Liam, Justin, David, Phil etc have come out with just because they use VB6 or an old language that only supports old systems. I'd rather have as many games to play as possible than forfeit them just because I may want to upgrade to a better system. Now if a game was updated and for whatever reason it didn't support XP, then I may have to purchase a second machine to run Windows 7 just so that I can play that game. But I would probably use my XP machine as my main one, at least until I got fully accustomed to my Windows 7 one and I was sure that all my favourite games would work on it. Regards, Damien. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2011 3:35 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] disrespect for gamers: was Re: Lunimals version 2.5b Hi Charles and all, the issue has nothing to do with appreciation. I certainly appreciate all the work Jim does, and like several of his games. Its actually the fact because I appreciate those games I want to see them improved and made to meet current development standards and practices. Saying the games don't work on Windows X so don't upgrade is simply not an answer for most people. Given a choice I would upgrade and forget about the games, but it would certainly be better to upgrade and still be able to play the games too. In a sense I've already done that. You all know I am running Linux not Windows on my laptop, and am currently looking at getting various games running under the Windows emulator, wine, and if that doesn't pan out so be it. I'm not going to cry over not playing various games I can't take with me. Obviously, though, I want to keep and play as many games as I can. Bottom line, given a choice of buying a new PC with Windos X on it or sticking with Windows XP for the rest of their life to play Jim's games isn't a contest. I'd say most people would buy the new PC and request Jim upgrade his games, but playing his games wouldn't stop them from upgrading in and of itself. Cheers! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] disrespect for gamers: was Re: Lunimals version 2.5b
Hi Willem, Yeah, unfortunately you are right. Using emulators work to a point, but they always have problems too. The issue with Shades of Doom crashing on wine is a prime example. I've seen similar issues with other accessible games under wine and its certainly frustrating. And the issue isn't just wine either. I use an Atari 2600 emulator called Stella and not every single Atari 2600 game will operate correctly with Stella. I've had weird things happen like the graphics appear screwed up on screen, games freeze for no reason in the middle of game play, and things like that. If that happens with a rather simpl game like Pacman how can we expect modern games to fair any better as we try to maintain playing/using them on more modern PCs via emulation. On 6/9/11, dwill...@gmail.com dwill...@gmail.com wrote: That is what happened to many dos games. People simply stopped playing them because it was too hard to run them. There is always emulation, but to mention an example, running a game like shades of doom under wine is a no go, because the game crashes when you open a door. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] disrespect for gamers: was Re: Lunimals version 2.5b
Hi Damien, You are right. What all of this does come down to is personal preference. Which is always what is the real issue behind the arguments being made here on list. My preferences obviously aren't the same as Jim, Jeremy, etc and my reasons for not using VB 6 are more valid taken in my personal context rather than theirs. Fir instance, you said you didn't like Windows Vista. Since the user interface in Windows 7 is exactly the same as Vista I doubt you would like it any better. As for myself I like the U.I. changes in Windows 7 over XP, but there are things I don't like such as the 3d arrow interface that eats 1 GB of ram and slows a 3.6 GHZ system way down to the speed of perhaps a 1 GHZ system just to run all that extra graphical animations and so on. So while I do like the changes in U.I. I certainly don't appreciate giving over more ram and processor power to run it though. Weather Windows 7 is better or worse than XP is purely a matter of point of view. On 6/9/11, Damien C. Pendleton dam...@x-sight-interactive.net wrote: Hi Tom, It's all just a matter of personal preference, in my opinion. Computers aren't half as fun without any games. To be honest I'm not a big Windows fan myself, but it's what I'm used to and have been brought up with. After playing with a copy of Vinux and a friend's Mac I came to the conclusion that I'd be better sticking with Windows. Not only from a games point of view, but interfaces, development, familiarity etc. Even after playing around with a Vista computer I didn't like that as much as XP. I can't speak for Windows 7 since I have never tried it, but if a game that I spent a lot of time playing didn't work on Windows 7 I wouldn't even consider upgrading. Most of my days are spent playing if not making games, therefore I'd be lost if I upgraded and a game didn't work as expected. Just because I make my own games doesn't mean that I'm going to stop playing games that Liam, Justin, David, Phil etc have come out with just because they use VB6 or an old language that only supports old systems. I'd rather have as many games to play as possible than forfeit them just because I may want to upgrade to a better system. Now if a game was updated and for whatever reason it didn't support XP, then I may have to purchase a second machine to run Windows 7 just so that I can play that game. But I would probably use my XP machine as my main one, at least until I got fully accustomed to my Windows 7 one and I was sure that all my favourite games would work on it. Regards, Damien. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] disrespect for gamers: was Re: Lunimals version 2.5b
Well it seems that while I've been sleeping, this argument over programming languages has flared up once again. It seems like this happens at some point each month, and that is exactly why some of my fellow VB6 users view it as attacks rather than suggestions. In other aspects of life, you've undoubtedly had someone disagree with you about something, and they felt compelled to share their view in an effort to get you to do things their way. That's normal, and should be expected during life. If you listened to their opinion, but stuck to your own, at what point does it become inappropriate for them to bring it up again and again? Perhaps you'll listen to the same arguments 3 or 4 times, but when the other person is compelled to repeatedly push their opinion on you, it becomes a hostile situation. I'm not writing this to any one specific individual, so please let me make that clear. This is being written, generally, to the long list of people who are still pushing the same views after months and months. Actually, this has probably been going on for a lot longer, but I haven't been on audyssey for very long. I want to dispel this idea that we VB6 users are only using it because we don't know any other languages. I feel that view paints us as ignorant programmers who are only rejecting your view because we don't know any better. This is not the case, and I, for one, happen to know just as many languages as the people who don't want me using VB6. Admittedly I would be rusty with most of them, since I haven't used them in years, but I prefer to be viewed as a peer rather than a programming novice who isn't experienced enough to know what's best for him. From my experience, there is a stereotypical progression in how programmers think. When they start out, they stick to what they know because it is all they know. Like a child clinging to pool floaties, it is scary to first venture away from what is keeping you safe. As the programmers begins learning more, they become excited by everything that's out there, and so they quickly begin learning everything they can about everything! This is usually when a programmer will fill their belt with several programming languages they have learned to use. When they've branched out sufficiently, they begin to see the need to narrow their focus back down, and so they will use friends and society to form strong opinions about why one/some languages and methods are superior. This becomes their justification for abandoning their previous way of thinking, and often leads programmers to become so opinionated that they will attack others who do not agree with them. The programmers in this category, and believe me I've known more than I'd like to, defend their views with the same level of passion you see on protest picket lines, political debates, and religious arguments. Personally I think it is a terrible shame, but programmers or not, people are still people, and people suck. Like an old person who eventually stops caring what other people think, sooner or later programmers break out of their opinionated shell. When you are so passionate about a single view, you may be able to admit their is another side, but you can't ever weigh it in in an unbiased way. A person who is stuck focused on compatibility issues is going to view everything through those goggles. For my fellow VB6 programmers, we simply have to accept that everything and anything we say will be viewed from that perspective and we stand no chance in changing it. Countless times in movies we see the diplomat and the war general facing some situation. No matter how events unfold, good or bad, the diplomat will twist it and view it as an opportunity to grow and build relationships, and the war general will twist and view it as a trap or security risk. These are common examples of how people all into a particular way of thinking and are then trapped to interpret all situations in that way. While the movies entertain us with the conflict between those characters, and how they each view each situation so differently, but in the end neither is able to change the other. They simply have to accept how each other are. The people who are focused on compatibility are not going to be swayed. The VB6 users who have already heard opinions about changing, yet remained firm, are not going to be swayed by those same arguments revived a month later. We have to stop trying to convince each other to change, since each perspective has value and needs to be present for a healthy overall community. I believe it is important for me to focus on rapid development, but I don't constantly post long messages telling other developers that taking 6 months on a game is unnecessary. I could easily push my own opinion onto others, but I have long ago moved past the drive to do so. If my personal views put importance on rapid
Re: [Audyssey] disrespect for gamers: was Re: Lunimals version 2.5b
Hi Jeremy. You completely missed my point. As an end user, I don't care if you use smoke signals to code your games, as long as I can run them on a normal pc. Up to now it has usually been possible, all be it with a little effort in some cases. I really like all your games. I spent hours on lunar animals alone the past weeks, not to mention the other free games from Jim Kitchen that I would hate to lose, but if they don't work, they don't work and that's where what language you use becomes the end user's problem, as I won't be able to run your games if I get a new arm-based pc for christmas. That is only half of the issue. I spent hundreds of dollars on non-free audio games which will also stop working in the immediate future from what I can deduce from the information microsoft have been releasing the passed while. Again, it has nothing to do with you or the language that you chose to use, and everything to do with incompatibility. Please stop being oversensitive. On 6/9/11, Jeremy Kaldobsky jer...@kaldobsky.com wrote: Well it seems that while I've been sleeping, this argument over programming languages has flared up once again. It seems like this happens at some point each month, and that is exactly why some of my fellow VB6 users view it as attacks rather than suggestions. In other aspects of life, you've undoubtedly had someone disagree with you about something, and they felt compelled to share their view in an effort to get you to do things their way. That's normal, and should be expected during life. If you listened to their opinion, but stuck to your own, at what point does it become inappropriate for them to bring it up again and again? Perhaps you'll listen to the same arguments 3 or 4 times, but when the other person is compelled to repeatedly push their opinion on you, it becomes a hostile situation. I'm not writing this to any one specific individual, so please let me make that clear. This is being written, generally, to the long list of people who are still pushing the same views after months and months. Actually, this has probably been going on for a lot longer, but I haven't been on audyssey for very long. I want to dispel this idea that we VB6 users are only using it because we don't know any other languages. I feel that view paints us as ignorant programmers who are only rejecting your view because we don't know any better. This is not the case, and I, for one, happen to know just as many languages as the people who don't want me using VB6. Admittedly I would be rusty with most of them, since I haven't used them in years, but I prefer to be viewed as a peer rather than a programming novice who isn't experienced enough to know what's best for him. From my experience, there is a stereotypical progression in how programmers think. When they start out, they stick to what they know because it is all they know. Like a child clinging to pool floaties, it is scary to first venture away from what is keeping you safe. As the programmers begins learning more, they become excited by everything that's out there, and so they quickly begin learning everything they can about everything! This is usually when a programmer will fill their belt with several programming languages they have learned to use. When they've branched out sufficiently, they begin to see the need to narrow their focus back down, and so they will use friends and society to form strong opinions about why one/some languages and methods are superior. This becomes their justification for abandoning their previous way of thinking, and often leads programmers to become so opinionated that they will attack others who do not agree with them. The programmers in this category, and believe me I've known more than I'd like to, defend their views with the same level of passion you see on protest picket lines, political debates, and religious arguments. Personally I think it is a terrible shame, but programmers or not, people are still people, and people suck. Like an old person who eventually stops caring what other people think, sooner or later programmers break out of their opinionated shell. When you are so passionate about a single view, you may be able to admit their is another side, but you can't ever weigh it in in an unbiased way. A person who is stuck focused on compatibility issues is going to view everything through those goggles. For my fellow VB6 programmers, we simply have to accept that everything and anything we say will be viewed from that perspective and we stand no chance in changing it. Countless times in movies we see the diplomat and the war general facing some situation. No matter how events unfold, good or bad, the diplomat will twist it and view it as an opportunity to grow and build relationships, and the war general will twist and view it as a trap or security risk. These are common examples of how people all into a
Re: [Audyssey] disrespect for gamers: was Re: Lunimals version 2.5b
Hi Jeremy, Very well written man, one of the best emails i've seen on here in a long time. I agree that everyone is entitled to their opinions and all that, but what bugs me about the preaching from on high attitude regarding programming languages is the attacks on other languages and methods and the fact that this might impact folks trying to get started with programming in a negative way. in the recent discussion about python, some folks painted python in a way that made it seem like nothing serious could be done with it, which is just total crap. As the famous quote goes, your entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts. to discourage folks from learning what may be a great system for them because you personally don't like it is something that just shouldn't happen on this list in my opinion, especially since this list seems to have a lot of bright young minds on it that are anxious to learn more about programming, and who knows, one of them might end up making a killer game that helps us get away from a mind set that most accessible games need to be modeled on 25 year old arcade games. later, che --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] disrespect for gamers: was Re: Lunimals version 2.5b
Very good post, Willem. As you said, the problem with VB6 isn't that it's a bad programming language. The problem is that people can't play the games. It doesn't matter that VB6 is a great platform. It doesn't matter that developers have dev tools and big libraries and tons of experience with it. It doesn't matter that the games are free. What matters is that people can't play the games, and that every year there will be fewer and fewer people who can play them. Developers have three options: 1) Do nothing and watch the number of players dwindle to zero; 2) Write emulators and/or libraries to allow the games to work on new platforms; 3) Change languages. All the other arguments are irrelevant. Dennis Towne Alter Aeon MUD On Thu, Jun 9, 2011 at 12:59 PM, Willem Venter dwill...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Jeremy. You completely missed my point. As an end user, I don't care if you use smoke signals to code your games, as long as I can run them on a normal pc. Up to now it has usually been possible, all be it with a little effort in some cases. I really like all your games. I spent hours on lunar animals alone the past weeks, not to mention the other free games from Jim Kitchen that I would hate to lose, but if they don't work, they don't work and that's where what language you use becomes the end user's problem, as I won't be able to run your games if I get a new arm-based pc for christmas. That is only half of the issue. I spent hundreds of dollars on non-free audio games which will also stop working in the immediate future from what I can deduce from the information microsoft have been releasing the passed while. Again, it has nothing to do with you or the language that you chose to use, and everything to do with incompatibility. Please stop being oversensitive. On 6/9/11, Jeremy Kaldobsky jer...@kaldobsky.com wrote: Well it seems that while I've been sleeping, this argument over programming languages has flared up once again. It seems like this happens at some point each month, and that is exactly why some of my fellow VB6 users view it as attacks rather than suggestions. In other aspects of life, you've undoubtedly had someone disagree with you about something, and they felt compelled to share their view in an effort to get you to do things their way. That's normal, and should be expected during life. If you listened to their opinion, but stuck to your own, at what point does it become inappropriate for them to bring it up again and again? Perhaps you'll listen to the same arguments 3 or 4 times, but when the other person is compelled to repeatedly push their opinion on you, it becomes a hostile situation. I'm not writing this to any one specific individual, so please let me make that clear. This is being written, generally, to the long list of people who are still pushing the same views after months and months. Actually, this has probably been going on for a lot longer, but I haven't been on audyssey for very long. I want to dispel this idea that we VB6 users are only using it because we don't know any other languages. I feel that view paints us as ignorant programmers who are only rejecting your view because we don't know any better. This is not the case, and I, for one, happen to know just as many languages as the people who don't want me using VB6. Admittedly I would be rusty with most of them, since I haven't used them in years, but I prefer to be viewed as a peer rather than a programming novice who isn't experienced enough to know what's best for him. From my experience, there is a stereotypical progression in how programmers think. When they start out, they stick to what they know because it is all they know. Like a child clinging to pool floaties, it is scary to first venture away from what is keeping you safe. As the programmers begins learning more, they become excited by everything that's out there, and so they quickly begin learning everything they can about everything! This is usually when a programmer will fill their belt with several programming languages they have learned to use. When they've branched out sufficiently, they begin to see the need to narrow their focus back down, and so they will use friends and society to form strong opinions about why one/some languages and methods are superior. This becomes their justification for abandoning their previous way of thinking, and often leads programmers to become so opinionated that they will attack others who do not agree with them. The programmers in this category, and believe me I've known more than I'd like to, defend their views with the same level of passion you see on protest picket lines, political debates, and religious arguments. Personally I think it is a terrible shame, but programmers or not, people are still people, and people suck. Like an old person who eventually stops caring what other people think, sooner or later
Re: [Audyssey] disrespect for gamers: was Re: Lunimals version 2.5b
I understand that the issue is about users being able to play the game. For many years, since Microsoft first stopped supporting VB6, people have been saying that any day no one will be able to use software written with it. Obviously with each passing year this gets closer to the truth, but we have different opinions on the seriousness of this problem right now. As I've said, when things change, I'll re-evaluate my position on the languages I use. You're probably right that the next generation of windows won't support VB6 at all, but then again, you might be wrong. Before Vista released, many people told me that it would be impossible to run VB6 applications on it, and it didn't turn out that way. It's entirely possible that some small change will allow VB6 apps to run on Windows X, just as it has allowed Windows Vista and Windows 7 users to run them. If not, then that's life and we will deal with the new situation. We are both playing a guessing game, clearly some of you guess that all VB6 titles will be lost forever, and I am guessing that probably won't be the case, or at least I'm not so convinced that I'm willing to change how I'm currently doing things. Dennis, when you say people can't play the games, I assume you mean the theoretical date when some new windows absolutely can't run VB6 games. As things stand at the moment, I'm unaware of any version of windows (2000 and later) that can't run VB6 games. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] disrespect for gamers: was Re: Lunimals version 2.5b
Are there games that are designed to be played using DOS that absolutely cannot be played on most systems? How long ago was it said that DOS would be no more? How about a paperless society with the advent of being able to send files to one another? We now use more paper than ever before. --- Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to heart. - Original Message - From: Jeremy Kaldobsky jer...@kaldobsky.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2011 4:24 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] disrespect for gamers: was Re: Lunimals version 2.5b I understand that the issue is about users being able to play the game. For many years, since Microsoft first stopped supporting VB6, people have been saying that any day no one will be able to use software written with it. Obviously with each passing year this gets closer to the truth, but we have different opinions on the seriousness of this problem right now. As I've said, when things change, I'll re-evaluate my position on the languages I use. You're probably right that the next generation of windows won't support VB6 at all, but then again, you might be wrong. Before Vista released, many people told me that it would be impossible to run VB6 applications on it, and it didn't turn out that way. It's entirely possible that some small change will allow VB6 apps to run on Windows X, just as it has allowed Windows Vista and Windows 7 users to run them. If not, then that's life and we will deal with the new situation. We are both playing a guessing game, clearly some of you guess that all VB6 titles will be lost forever, and I am guessing that probably won't be the case, or at least I'm not so convinced that I'm willing to change how I'm currently doing things. Dennis, when you say people can't play the games, I assume you mean the theoretical date when some new windows absolutely can't run VB6 games. As things stand at the moment, I'm unaware of any version of windows (2000 and later) that can't run VB6 games. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] disrespect for gamers: was Re: Lunimals version 2.5b
Hi Charles and Jeremy. Charles, on the new windows 7 machines, some dos programs stop working or have random errors. This is because the machine's architecture have changed too much to run them like a normal program. A dos mode is emulated by the machine, which doesn't always give the expected results, as there as so many things that could go wrong with an emulation. Jeremy, it's not a question if it won't work, I'm telling you visual basic applications won't work on any arm-based machine as things stand. This is because arm processors use a different instruction set that is not compattible with intel's x86 or x64 instruction set. I'm pretty sure microsoft won't recompile the visual basic libraries. They already refused to include the vb libraries in windows 7 even though they were compatible. On 6/9/11, Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net wrote: Are there games that are designed to be played using DOS that absolutely cannot be played on most systems? How long ago was it said that DOS would be no more? How about a paperless society with the advent of being able to send files to one another? We now use more paper than ever before. --- Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to heart. - Original Message - From: Jeremy Kaldobsky jer...@kaldobsky.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2011 4:24 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] disrespect for gamers: was Re: Lunimals version 2.5b I understand that the issue is about users being able to play the game. For many years, since Microsoft first stopped supporting VB6, people have been saying that any day no one will be able to use software written with it. Obviously with each passing year this gets closer to the truth, but we have different opinions on the seriousness of this problem right now. As I've said, when things change, I'll re-evaluate my position on the languages I use. You're probably right that the next generation of windows won't support VB6 at all, but then again, you might be wrong. Before Vista released, many people told me that it would be impossible to run VB6 applications on it, and it didn't turn out that way. It's entirely possible that some small change will allow VB6 apps to run on Windows X, just as it has allowed Windows Vista and Windows 7 users to run them. If not, then that's life and we will deal with the new situation. We are both playing a guessing game, clearly some of you guess that all VB6 titles will be lost forever, and I am guessing that probably won't be the case, or at least I'm not so convinced that I'm willing to change how I'm currently doing things. Dennis, when you say people can't play the games, I assume you mean the theoretical date when some new windows absolutely can't run VB6 games. As things stand at the moment, I'm unaware of any version of windows (2000 and later) that can't run VB6 games. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
