Andrew A. Gill wrote:
As little as I trust Pantone to CMYK, I trust Pantone to RGB
even less.
Actually, Pantone to Spectral to L*a*b* to device space (RGB/CMYK whatever)
is pretty good.
Graeme Gill.
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Gimp-developer mailing list
Hi all,
my previous posting does not stand a quality test, to put it mildly.
To save the list from multiple nearly indentical follow-ups,
i thinks it's best to bundle my replies here.
My apologies for the noise.
yahvuu schrieb:
Thanks to GEGL's dynamic nature, the sRGB-CMYK separation will be
Hi,
On Wed, 2009-03-25 at 23:21 -0400, Louis Desjardins wrote:
At this point in the discussion, it would be great to hear if the
quality of the information provided so far in terms of explanations and
examples is enough to lead someone or a group of developers in the GIMP
team to envision
Andrew A. Gill wrote:
[from here out, `you' refers to core GIMP developers]
We want you to succeed, and all you need to do to succeed is to
address some of the issues that users need. If you're telling us
that GIMP has no intention of ever providing those things, we'll
find another
On Thu, 26 Mar 2009, Martin Nordholts wrote:
I must say I find this a bit arrogant.
Maybe. Probably.
But I think it's time for me a a user to stop telling developers
what I need and to start asking what you need to make that
happen.
I think it's time to stop looking at this from the
On Wed, 25 Mar 2009, Vincent Lordier wrote:
Hello happy CMYK warriors,
This is valuable input you're giving actually
How about collecting these use cases for prepress in the wiki here
http://wiki.gimp.org/gimp/ ?
Well, I'm a man of my word and so I just contributed my wiki
attempt to do my
Hi all,
Louis Desjardins schrieb:
Guillermo Espertino a écrit :
Even though I agree that most of the CMYK cases mentioned use CMYK
almost as spot colors, I can think of a very common usage scenario in
Graphic Design where you need to be able to edit CMYK directly:
Corporate colors.
Most
El jue, 26-03-2009 a las 21:43 +0100, yahvuu escribió:
Hi all,
just to be shure (i'm probably just paraphrasing Andrew A. Gill's follow-up):
I think this task can be done equally well in an RGB space, say sRGB.
If Pantone's Bridge has sRGB approximations, it should be trivial. If not,
you
2009/3/27 Guillermo Espertino wrote:
Also, in this discussion it seems that it was never considered that you
can be working on images that somebody else sent you and you don't
control how they were created.
If somebody sent you a separated tiff of a magazine ad and you have to
do some
Alexandre Prokoudine schrieb:
2009/3/27 Guillermo Espertino wrote:
Also, in this discussion it seems that it was never considered that you
can be working on images that somebody else sent you and you don't
control how they were created.
If somebody sent you a separated tiff of a magazine ad
On Thu, 26 Mar 2009, yahvuu wrote:
just to be shure (i'm probably just paraphrasing Andrew A. Gill's follow-up):
No, you're not.
That came out a little sharp. Let me try to soften it. You're
entitled to your opinion, but I just want to make sure that
there's no misunderstanding.
I think
On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 10:14 PM, Andrew A. Gill
superlu...@frontiernet.net wrote:
As little as I trust Pantone to CMYK, I trust Pantone to RGB
even less.
By this i mean anything which can't be done by processing
the plates as separate grayscale channels (see ?yvind Kolas's post).
This is
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 23:08:37 +
From: =?ISO-8859-1?B?2Hl2aW5kIEtvbOVz?= islew...@gmail.com
For CMYK the following ops need to be implemented:
CMYK-from-RGB - takes a GeglBuffer as input, has options for black
subtraction, ICC profile selection, gamut handling and similar,
On Thu, 26 Mar 2009, ?yvind Kol?s wrote:
I was not describing user interface anywhere in my mail,
To be honest, I think I missed your message.
If I have mischaracterized what you have said (and judging from
what you say below, it looks like someone has), I crave pardon.
Here's what I was
On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 11:17 PM, Sven Neumann wrote:
Hi,
On Mon, 2009-03-23 at 21:02 +0100, Martin Nordholts wrote:
Yes, processing shall as long as possible be done in RGB, but at some
point you need to convert to the CMYK color space and a high-end photo
app should support editing also
Hello happy CMYK warriors,
This is valuable input you're giving actually
How about collecting these use cases for prepress in the wiki here
http://wiki.gimp.org/gimp/ ?
(like the UI team did with brainstorm here :
http://gimp-brainstorm.blogspot.com/ )
You could put it using these kind of
On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 6:21 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:
1. Client brings an image for poster in CMYK which needs color
correction. Urgent work, not time to ask him to redo it. Double color
space conversion is out of question. So he had to use Photoshop from
VMWare.
2. You have a
On Wed, 25 Mar 2009, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:
2. You have a newspaper where first page should have a two-color
photo: black (C=0%M=0%Y=0%K=100%) and blue (C=100%M=0%Y=0%K=0%).
separate+ however separates black to 4 channels.
The Christian Science Monitor does this pretty frequently, and
On Wed, 25 Mar 2009, Vincent Lordier wrote:
This is valuable input you're giving actually
How about collecting these use cases for prepress in the wiki here
http://wiki.gimp.org/gimp/ ?
(like the UI team did with brainstorm here :
http://gimp-brainstorm.blogspot.com/ )
You could put it
On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 7:27 PM, Andrew A. Gill wrote:
Agreed. I don't think anyone here is looking for a Photoshop clone (I know
that I personally hate PS for a variety of reasons), but we do realize that
it has to compete with Photoshop, and not addressing the issues of large
sections of
Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:
There was a somewhat heated discussion of this thread at
linuxgraphics.ru forum and here are several examples from people who
deal with prepress work on daily basis:
1. Client brings an image for poster in CMYK which needs color
correction. Urgent work, not time
On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 8:44 PM, peter sikking wrote:
There is choice in there, and the user community cannot demand
that GIMP does certain things.
It's quite an interesting point, because you are talking about
demanding, whereas I'm talking about meeting users needs :) And you do
understand
Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:
On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 8:44 PM, peter sikking wrote:
There is choice in there, and the user community cannot demand
that GIMP does certain things.
It's quite an interesting point, because you are talking about
demanding, whereas I'm talking about meeting users
On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 12:44 PM, peter sikking pe...@mmiworks.net wrote:
Mix master tape (in rgb) and then cut
the lp (in cmyk).
I can express any CMYK color in RGB - but not the other way around.
Therefore, I master all of my print jobs in CMYK, and if I cut
something like a preview for a
On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 1:58 PM, peter sikking pe...@mmiworks.net wrote:
Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:
Which means in fact that the team does not wish to meet *real*
prepress users needs on product vision level.
I would like to have this answered answer first: why can't they
do it with
On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 7:06 PM, Chris Mohler cr33...@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 12:44 PM, peter sikking pe...@mmiworks.net wrote:
Mix master tape (in rgb) and then cut
the lp (in cmyk).
I can express any CMYK color in RGB - but not the other way around.
Therefore, I master all
Hi,
Chris Mohler schrieb:
I can express any CMYK color in RGB - but not the other way around.
now i'm confused :)
Is CMYK-RGB-CMYK roundtrip safe?
From past examples (trapping, rich black) i've come to think that
hand-optimized CMYK separations can't be transformed back
to RGB losslessly
On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 2:44 PM, yahvuu yah...@gmail.com wrote:
Hi,
Chris Mohler schrieb:
I can express any CMYK color in RGB - but not the other way around.
now i'm confused :)
Is CMYK-RGB-CMYK roundtrip safe?
Not really. What I was trying to say is that I send RGB proof images
to my
On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 10:44 PM, yahvuu wrote:
I can express any CMYK color in RGB - but not the other way around.
now i'm confused :)
Is CMYK-RGB-CMYK roundtrip safe?
It's not :) And I believe that a small portion of CMYK colors is out
of gamut for RGB too , by the way :)
Alexandre
Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:
It's not :) And I believe that a small portion of CMYK colors is out
of gamut for RGB too , by the way :)
Both RGB and CMYK are device dependent color spaces and without any kind
or further specification one can not say how the former relates to the
latter
You
On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 11:06 PM, Martin Nordholts wrote:
Both RGB and CMYK are device dependent color spaces and without any kind
or further specification one can not say how the former relates to the
latter
That goes without saying :)
Alexandre
Alexandre Prokoudine a écrit :
On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 6:21 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:
1. Client brings an image for poster in CMYK which needs color
correction. Urgent work, not time to ask him to redo it. Double color
space conversion is out of question. So he had to use Photoshop
On Wed, 25 Mar 2009, peter sikking wrote:
Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:
There was a somewhat heated discussion of this thread at
linuxgraphics.ru forum and here are several examples from people who
deal with prepress work on daily basis:
1. Client brings an image for poster in CMYK which
On Wed, 25 Mar 2009, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:
On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 7:27 PM, Andrew A. Gill wrote:
Agreed. I don't think anyone here is looking for a Photoshop clone (I know
that I personally hate PS for a variety of reasons), but we do realize that
it has to compete with Photoshop, and
peter sikking wrote:
Now what about that prepress. I think it is fairly safe to say
that scribus' vision is to be prepress-king and GIMP should watch
it not to want to overlap too much in that department. Everything
in the above examples that reeks of newspaper, publications or
multiple
On Thu, 26 Mar 2009, Graeme Gill wrote:
As I understand it, Scribus is not a pixel editor, it is
a page layout package, rather a different thing altogether.
For the record, Scribus does allow pixel editing.
When you right click on an image and select Edit Image, it opens
the image in GIMP.
Even though I agree that most of the CMYK cases mentioned use CMYK
almost as spot colors, I can think of a very common usage scenario in
Graphic Design where you need to be able to edit CMYK directly:
Corporate colors.
Most frequently Pantones. Brands have their corporate colors and ask
designers
On Wed, 25 Mar 2009, Guillermo Espertino wrote:
Even though I agree that most of the CMYK cases mentioned use CMYK
almost as spot colors, I can think of a very common usage scenario in
Graphic Design where you need to be able to edit CMYK directly:
Corporate colors.
Most frequently
yahvuu wrote:
Chris Mohler schrieb:
I can express any CMYK color in RGB - but not the other way around.
now i'm confused :)
Is CMYK-RGB-CMYK roundtrip safe?
It depends on the gamuts of the respective colorspaces.
These are all device dependent colorspaces, so their
gamuts depend on the
Guillermo Espertino a écrit :
Even though I agree that most of the CMYK cases mentioned use CMYK
almost as spot colors, I can think of a very common usage scenario in
Graphic Design where you need to be able to edit CMYK directly:
Corporate colors.
Most frequently Pantones. Brands have
On Wed, 25 Mar 2009, Louis Desjardins wrote:
To this point I don?t believe it?s that important to start figuring out
whether the case is as good an example as it possibly can. I guess we
are not at all trying to make the trial of the use of CMYK in the
printing industry! (Now, that would be a
On Wed, 25 Mar 2009, Louis Desjardins wrote:
This mostly depends on the RIP that is attached to the printer but really,
this doesn?t prove the point of the need of CMYK editing ability to be wrong,
does it?
On the contrary.
Just trying to give people all the facts. I find it helps to
Andrew A. Gill a écrit :
On Wed, 25 Mar 2009, Louis Desjardins wrote:
This mostly depends on the RIP that is attached to the printer but
really, this doesn?t prove the point of the need of CMYK editing
ability to be wrong, does it?
On the contrary.
Just trying to give people all the
2009/3/22 peter sikking pe...@mmiworks.net:
Sven wrote:
bummer about the non-standard, but would industrial-strength TIFF
in and export not be significantly more in line with our product
vision than industrial-strength pdf in and export?
Depends on what gets used nowadays. If professionals
Hi,
On Mon, 2009-03-23 at 14:31 -0500, Chris Mohler wrote:
So to recap, I would welcome a printer-friendly PDF export if someone
wants to work on it, though without CMYK support built-in it's not
very useful just yet. From what I understand though, once GEGL
integration is complete, any
Sven Neumann wrote:
We don't plan to support editing images in CMYK.
Sven
The product vision states that GIMP is a high-end photo manipulation
application and that certainly includes support for editing images in
the CMYK color space. We can't call ourselves high-end without that
support.
Hi,
On Mon, 2009-03-23 at 20:43 +0100, Martin Nordholts wrote:
The product vision states that GIMP is a high-end photo manipulation
application and that certainly includes support for editing images in
the CMYK color space.
It certainly doesn't. Photos are taken in an RGB color space. It
Sven Neumann wrote:
On Mon, 2009-03-23 at 20:43 +0100, Martin Nordholts wrote:
The product vision states that GIMP is a high-end photo manipulation
application and that certainly includes support for editing images in
the CMYK color space.
It certainly doesn't. Photos are taken in
Hi,
On Mon, 2009-03-23 at 21:02 +0100, Martin Nordholts wrote:
Yes, processing shall as long as possible be done in RGB, but at some
point you need to convert to the CMYK color space and a high-end photo
app should support editing also in this color space.
Why? Because you say so? All
On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 2:57 PM, Sven Neumann s...@gimp.org wrote:
Hi,
On Mon, 2009-03-23 at 20:43 +0100, Martin Nordholts wrote:
The product vision states that GIMP is a high-end photo manipulation
application and that certainly includes support for editing images in
the CMYK color space.
FYI, my company writes most of its own output in PostScript for high end laser
printers (e.g., Xerox I-GEN 3 and 4). We avoid CMYK. But we're not a pre-canned
application company, we write everything ourselves. All of our printers work
great with RGB colorspace. The need for CMYK is usually
Hi,
On Mon, 2009-03-23 at 15:27 -0500, Chris Mohler wrote:
It is helpful to see an approximation of CMYK on the screen before you
go to print - many colors available in the RGB color space fall
outside of the CMYK gamut. RGB blue is likely the worst offender -
fill an image with solid
On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 11:49 PM, Sven Neumann wrote:
GIMP already provides that. You can ask for a Soft Proof and it will
show you an approximation of what will be printed based on the CMYK
printer profile you specified. It can also show you out-of-gamut colors.
Last time I did a softproof
Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:
On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 11:49 PM, Sven Neumann wrote:
GIMP already provides that. You can ask for a Soft Proof and it will
show you an approximation of what will be printed based on the CMYK
printer profile you specified. It can also show you out-of-gamut
Sven wrote:
Martin wrote:
Yes, processing shall as long as possible be done in RGB, but at some
point you need to convert to the CMYK color space and a high-end
photo
app should support editing also in this color space.
Why? Because you say so?
wow, the return of the cmyk wars.
the
Sven Neumann wrote:
It certainly doesn't. Photos are taken in an RGB color space. It makes
sense to do some processing in other color spaces such as LAB. But CMYK
is totally inadequate for manipulating photos.
It really depends on what you are used to. To *you* RGB seems natural,
while to
Hi,
On Sat, 2009-03-21 at 21:36 +0200, LightningIsMyName wrote:
I believe that we should have the option to export multi-paged PDFs,
since we have the option to import them, and to me it makes sense that
we should be able to export what we can import.
The whole point of calling it Import is
On Sun, Mar 22, 2009 at 6:19 AM, Sven Neumann s...@gimp.org wrote:
[...]
I don't understand why that is needed. What is our goal here? To create
PDF files as small as possible? IMO the goal for PDF export should be to
improve support for professional printing. File size is not important
for
On Sun, 22 Mar 2009 09:47:00 -0500, Chris Mohler wrote:
I see two possible use cases:
1. Proofing artwork - you need to prepare a proof before going to
press. [...]
2. Submission to a printing company - you need to submit hi-res
artwork to a printing company.
[...]
What would be the
2009/3/22 Cristian Secară wrote:
What would be the advantage of handling a .pdf generation at
application level instead of at operating system level ?
(i.e. via print command)
Far more features supported.
Install Scribus, go to File - Export - Save as PDF, then visit Fonts,
Security, Color
Hi,
On Sun, 2009-03-22 at 09:47 -0500, Chris Mohler wrote:
I see two possible use cases:
1. Proofing artwork - you need to prepare a proof before going to
press. You send that proof to a client and they print it out and get
a reasonable hard proof.
2. Submission to a printing company -
Sven wrote:
So would you say that it makes more sense to spend time improving the
TIFF save plug-in or would it be a better idea to invest that
development into a powerful PDF export? My experience with TIFF is
that
it is an extremely difficult format as most of the important features
are
On Sun, 22 Mar 2009 21:23:24 +0300, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:
Far more features supported.
Install Scribus, go to File - Export - Save as PDF, then visit Fonts,
Security, Color [...]
I assume it all depends on the application used for .pdf generation.
Adobe Distiller ( Acrobat) has a
Hi,
On Sun, 2009-03-22 at 19:33 +0100, peter sikking wrote:
bummer about the non-standard, but would industrial-strength TIFF
in and export not be significantly more in line with our product
vision than industrial-strength pdf in and export?
Depends on what gets used nowadays. If
Sven wrote:
bummer about the non-standard, but would industrial-strength TIFF
in and export not be significantly more in line with our product
vision than industrial-strength pdf in and export?
Depends on what gets used nowadays. If professionals are turning away
from TIFF and start to
Just my two cents;
TIFF is more important to GIMP because TIFF is widely used on printing and
CG works. Its a common practice to use TIFF images in professional page
layout programs like Scribus and Adode InDesign for example. And some 3d
programs (like zbrush) use TIFF for export texture maps
On Sun, Mar 22, 2009 at 11:13 PM, peter sikking wrote:
so now we really need some trend spotting from those in our community
who deal with serious printing jobs.
It's difficult to talk about trends with regards to printing industry
which tends to be quite conservative.
If you tell Scribus
I send files to print shops every week. Here in argentina even serious
printers require proprietary file formats like AIs and CDR, though
they're fine with tiffs and PDFs.
I don't understand why there is so much interest in supporting PDF
export from GIMP, since the exported data will be only
Hi,
On Fri, 2009-03-20 at 22:04 +0200, LightningIsMyName wrote:
1. How will the user create multi-paged PDFs? Should he choose
different images, one for each page? (This sounds like the most
reasonable way compared to other ways I thought of).
Why would we want to allow the user to create
Sven Neumann wrote:
Hi,
On Fri, 2009-03-20 at 22:04 +0200, LightningIsMyName wrote:
1. How will the user create multi-paged PDFs? Should he choose
different images, one for each page? (This sounds like the most
reasonable way compared to other ways I thought of).
Why would we want to
gg wrote:
Sven Neumann wrote:
Hi,
On Fri, 2009-03-20 at 22:04 +0200, LightningIsMyName wrote:
1. How will the user create multi-paged PDFs? Should he choose
different images, one for each page? (This sounds like the most
reasonable way compared to other ways I thought of).
Hi,
On Sat, 2009-03-21 at 12:41 +0100, gg wrote:
The other question is licensing of pdf. IRCC pdf viewing is allowed in a
fairly liberal sense but creating pdf is what Abode make money on and
retains the rights to.
I am pretty sure that this is not the case. The GIMP Print plug-in
creates
Hi,
On Sat, 2009-03-21 at 12:41 +0100, gg wrote:
Indeed, what is the advantage of pdf export of a single image?
If it is just a simple PDF, then nothing. But if it includes color
profiles, support for spot colors, resolution-independent text layers,
crop markers etc., then it would be a
Hello again,
On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 11:15 AM, Sven Neumann s...@gimp.org wrote:
Hi,
On Fri, 2009-03-20 at 22:04 +0200, LightningIsMyName wrote:
1. How will the user create multi-paged PDFs? Should he choose
different images, one for each page? (This sounds like the most
reasonable way
On 3/21/09, gg wrote:
Despite the current obsession with this format it is pretty clunky and
inflexible. I don't see much point for a single image.
Ahem, and what is your expertize to make such a bold statement?
The other question is licensing of pdf. IRCC pdf viewing is allowed in a
fairly
Hi,
On Fri, 2009-03-20 at 19:15 +0200, Lightning LIMN wrote:
I managed to export text while keeping the same appearance that it had
in GIMP using PangoCairo. Exporting images with cairo was also
possible if I saved the images first as PNGs and then used cairo PNG
surfaces to draw them.
Why
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