Andrew A. Gill wrote:
> As little as I trust Pantone to CMYK, I trust Pantone to RGB
> even less.
Actually, Pantone to Spectral to L*a*b* to device space (RGB/CMYK whatever)
is pretty good.
Graeme Gill.
___
Gimp-developer mailing list
Gimp-developer@li
Hi,
On Wed, 2009-03-25 at 23:21 -0400, Louis Desjardins wrote:
> At this point in the discussion, it would be great to hear if the
> quality of the information provided so far in terms of explanations and
> examples is enough to lead someone or a group of developers in the GIMP
> team to envis
Hi all,
my previous posting does not stand a quality test, to put it mildly.
To save the list from multiple nearly indentical follow-ups,
i thinks it's best to bundle my replies here.
My apologies for the noise.
yahvuu schrieb:
> Thanks to GEGL's dynamic nature, the sRGB->CMYK separation will be
On Thu, 26 Mar 2009, ?yvind Kol?s wrote:
>
> I was not describing user interface anywhere in my mail,
To be honest, I think I missed your message.
If I have mischaracterized what you have said (and judging from
what you say below, it looks like someone has), I crave pardon.
Here's what I was di
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 23:08:37 +
From: =?ISO-8859-1?B?2Hl2aW5kIEtvbOVz?=
For CMYK the following ops need to be implemented:
CMYK-from-RGB - takes a GeglBuffer as input, has options for black
subtraction, ICC profile selection, gamut handling and similar,
provides four gray
On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 10:14 PM, Andrew A. Gill
wrote:
> As little as I trust Pantone to CMYK, I trust Pantone to RGB
> even less.
>
>> By this i mean anything which can't be done by processing
>> the "plates" as separate grayscale channels (see ?yvind Kolas's post).
>
> This is not fun. What yo
On Thu, 26 Mar 2009, yahvuu wrote:
>
> just to be shure (i'm probably just paraphrasing Andrew A. Gill's follow-up):
No, you're not.
That came out a little sharp. Let me try to soften it. You're
entitled to your opinion, but I just want to make sure that
there's no misunderstanding.
> I thin
Alexandre Prokoudine schrieb:
> 2009/3/27 Guillermo Espertino wrote:
>
>> Also, in this discussion it seems that it was never considered that you
>> can be working on images that somebody else sent you and you don't
>> control how they were created.
>> If somebody sent you a separated tiff of a ma
2009/3/27 Guillermo Espertino wrote:
> Also, in this discussion it seems that it was never considered that you
> can be working on images that somebody else sent you and you don't
> control how they were created.
> If somebody sent you a separated tiff of a magazine ad and you have to
> do some ed
El jue, 26-03-2009 a las 21:43 +0100, yahvuu escribió:
> Hi all,
> just to be shure (i'm probably just paraphrasing Andrew A. Gill's follow-up):
> I think this task can be done equally well in an RGB space, say sRGB.
> If Pantone's Bridge has sRGB approximations, it should be trivial. If not,
> you
Hi all,
Louis Desjardins schrieb:
> Guillermo Espertino a écrit :
>> Even though I agree that most of the CMYK cases mentioned use CMYK
>> almost as spot colors, I can think of a very common usage scenario in
>> Graphic Design where you need to be able to edit CMYK directly:
>>
>> Corporate colors
On Wed, 25 Mar 2009, Vincent Lordier wrote:
> Hello happy CMYK warriors,
>
> This is valuable input you're giving actually
> How about collecting these use cases for prepress in the wiki here
> http://wiki.gimp.org/gimp/ ?
Well, I'm a man of my word and so I just contributed my wiki
attempt to d
On Thu, 26 Mar 2009, Martin Nordholts wrote:
>
> I must say I find this a bit arrogant.
Maybe. Probably.
But I think it's time for me a a user to stop telling developers
what I need and to start asking what you need to make that
happen.
I think it's time to stop looking at this from the posit
Andrew A. Gill wrote:
> [from here out, `you' refers to core GIMP developers]
>
> We want you to succeed, and all you need to do to succeed is to
> address some of the issues that users need. If you're telling us
> that GIMP has no intention of ever providing those things, we'll
> find another
Andrew A. Gill a écrit :
> On Wed, 25 Mar 2009, Louis Desjardins wrote:
>>
>> This mostly depends on the RIP that is attached to the printer but
>> really, this doesn?t prove the point of the need of CMYK editing
>> ability to be wrong, does it?
>
> On the contrary.
>
> Just trying to give peop
On Wed, 25 Mar 2009, Louis Desjardins wrote:
>
> This mostly depends on the RIP that is attached to the printer but really,
> this doesn?t prove the point of the need of CMYK editing ability to be wrong,
> does it?
On the contrary.
Just trying to give people all the facts. I find it helps to
Andrew A. Gill a écrit :
> On Wed, 25 Mar 2009, Louis Desjardins wrote:
>>
>> To this point I don?t believe it?s that important to start figuring out
>> whether the case is as good an example as it possibly can. I guess we
>> are not at all trying to make the trial of the use of CMYK in the
>> prin
On Wed, 25 Mar 2009, Louis Desjardins wrote:
>
> To this point I don?t believe it?s that important to start figuring out
> whether the case is as good an example as it possibly can. I guess we
> are not at all trying to make the trial of the use of CMYK in the
> printing industry! (Now, that would
Guillermo Espertino a écrit :
> Even though I agree that most of the CMYK cases mentioned use CMYK
> almost as spot colors, I can think of a very common usage scenario in
> Graphic Design where you need to be able to edit CMYK directly:
>
> Corporate colors.
> Most frequently Pantones. Brands have
yahvuu wrote:
> Chris Mohler schrieb:
>> I can express any CMYK color in RGB - but not the other way around.
>
> now i'm confused :)
>
> Is CMYK->RGB->CMYK roundtrip safe?
It depends on the gamuts of the respective colorspaces.
These are all device dependent colorspaces, so their
gamuts depend o
On Wed, 25 Mar 2009, Guillermo Espertino wrote:
> Even though I agree that most of the CMYK cases mentioned use CMYK
> almost as spot colors, I can think of a very common usage scenario in
> Graphic Design where you need to be able to edit CMYK directly:
>
> Corporate colors.
> Most frequently Pan
Even though I agree that most of the CMYK cases mentioned use CMYK
almost as spot colors, I can think of a very common usage scenario in
Graphic Design where you need to be able to edit CMYK directly:
Corporate colors.
Most frequently Pantones. Brands have their corporate colors and ask
designers
On Thu, 26 Mar 2009, Graeme Gill wrote:
>
> As I understand it, Scribus is not a pixel editor, it is
> a page layout package, rather a different thing altogether.
For the record, Scribus does allow pixel editing.
When you right click on an image and select Edit Image, it opens
the image in GIMP.
peter sikking wrote:
> Now what about that prepress. I think it is fairly safe to say
> that scribus' vision is to be prepress-king and GIMP should watch
> it not to want to overlap too much in that department. Everything
> in the above examples that reeks of newspaper, publications or
> multiple
On Wed, 25 Mar 2009, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:
On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 7:27 PM, Andrew A. Gill wrote:
Agreed. I don't think anyone here is looking for a Photoshop clone (I know
that I personally hate PS for a variety of reasons), but we do realize that
it has to compete with Photoshop, and
On Wed, 25 Mar 2009, peter sikking wrote:
> Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:
>
>> There was a somewhat heated discussion of this thread at
>> linuxgraphics.ru forum and here are several examples from people who
>> deal with prepress work on daily basis:
>>
>> 1. Client brings an image for poster in CMY
Alexandre Prokoudine a écrit :
> On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 6:21 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:
>
>> 1. Client brings an image for poster in CMYK which needs color
>> correction. Urgent work, not time to ask him to redo it. Double color
>> space conversion is out of question. So he had to use Photos
On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 11:06 PM, Martin Nordholts wrote:
> Both RGB and CMYK are device dependent color spaces and without any kind
> or further specification one can not say how the former relates to the
> latter
That goes without saying :)
Alexandre
___
Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:
> It's not :) And I believe that a small portion of CMYK colors is out
> of gamut for RGB too , by the way :)
>
Both RGB and CMYK are device dependent color spaces and without any kind
or further specification one can not say how the former relates to the
latter
You
On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 10:44 PM, yahvuu wrote:
>> I can express any CMYK color in RGB - but not the other way around.
>
> now i'm confused :)
>
> Is CMYK->RGB->CMYK roundtrip safe?
It's not :) And I believe that a small portion of CMYK colors is out
of gamut for RGB too , by the way :)
Alexandr
On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 2:44 PM, yahvuu wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Chris Mohler schrieb:
>> I can express any CMYK color in RGB - but not the other way around.
>
> now i'm confused :)
>
> Is CMYK->RGB->CMYK roundtrip safe?
Not really. What I was trying to say is that I send RGB proof images
to my customer
Hi,
Chris Mohler schrieb:
> I can express any CMYK color in RGB - but not the other way around.
now i'm confused :)
Is CMYK->RGB->CMYK roundtrip safe?
>From past examples (trapping, rich black) i've come to think that
hand-optimized CMYK separations can't be transformed back
to RGB losslessly (q
On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 9:58 PM, peter sikking wrote:
> If you had carefully read what I am offering to design for
> GIMP you will see that it is a lot more than an export.
>
> I am talking about covering the main image window with a
> "projection screen" in this case for cmyk, whenever one wants,
On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 7:06 PM, Chris Mohler wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 12:44 PM, peter sikking wrote:
>> Mix master tape (in rgb) and then cut
>> the lp (in cmyk).
>
> I can express any CMYK color in RGB - but not the other way around.
> Therefore, I "master" all of my print jobs in CMYK,
On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 1:58 PM, peter sikking wrote:
> Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:
>> Which means in fact that the team does not wish to meet *real*
>> prepress users needs on product vision level.
>
>
> I would like to have this answered answer first: why can't they
> do it with scribus? are we
On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 12:44 PM, peter sikking wrote:
> Mix master tape (in rgb) and then cut
> the lp (in cmyk).
I can express any CMYK color in RGB - but not the other way around.
Therefore, I "master" all of my print jobs in CMYK, and if I "cut"
something like a preview for a client then I us
Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 8:44 PM, peter sikking wrote:
>> There is choice in there, and the user community cannot demand
>> that GIMP does certain things.
>
> It's quite an interesting point, because you are talking about
> demanding, whereas I'm talking about meeting
On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 8:44 PM, peter sikking wrote:
> There is choice in there, and the user community cannot demand
> that GIMP does certain things.
It's quite an interesting point, because you are talking about
demanding, whereas I'm talking about meeting users needs :) And you do
understand
Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:
> There was a somewhat heated discussion of this thread at
> linuxgraphics.ru forum and here are several examples from people who
> deal with prepress work on daily basis:
>
> 1. Client brings an image for poster in CMYK which needs color
> correction. Urgent work, not
On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 7:27 PM, Andrew A. Gill wrote:
> Agreed. I don't think anyone here is looking for a Photoshop clone (I know
> that I personally hate PS for a variety of reasons), but we do realize that
> it has to compete with Photoshop, and not addressing the issues of large
> sections o
On Wed, 25 Mar 2009, Vincent Lordier wrote:
>
> This is valuable input you're giving actually
> How about collecting these use cases for prepress in the wiki here
> http://wiki.gimp.org/gimp/ ?
>
> (like the UI team did with brainstorm here :
> http://gimp-brainstorm.blogspot.com/ )
>
> You could p
On Wed, 25 Mar 2009, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:
>
> 2. You have a newspaper where first page should have a two-color
> photo: black (C=0%M=0%Y=0%K<=100%) and blue (C<=100%M=0%Y=0%K=0%).
> separate+ however separates black to 4 channels.
The Christian Science Monitor does this pretty frequently, a
On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 6:21 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:
> 1. Client brings an image for poster in CMYK which needs color
> correction. Urgent work, not time to ask him to redo it. Double color
> space conversion is out of question. So he had to use Photoshop from
> VMWare.
>
> 2. You have a n
Hello happy CMYK warriors,
This is valuable input you're giving actually
How about collecting these use cases for prepress in the wiki here
http://wiki.gimp.org/gimp/ ?
(like the UI team did with brainstorm here :
http://gimp-brainstorm.blogspot.com/ )
You could put it using these kind of chapte
On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 11:17 PM, Sven Neumann wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Mon, 2009-03-23 at 21:02 +0100, Martin Nordholts wrote:
>
>> Yes, processing shall as long as possible be done in RGB, but at some
>> point you need to convert to the CMYK color space and a high-end photo
>> app should support editi
Sven Neumann wrote:
> It certainly doesn't. Photos are taken in an RGB color space. It makes
> sense to do some processing in other color spaces such as LAB. But CMYK
> is totally inadequate for manipulating photos.
It really depends on what you are used to. To *you* RGB seems natural,
while to so
Sven wrote:
> Martin wrote:
>> Yes, processing shall as long as possible be done in RGB, but at some
>> point you need to convert to the CMYK color space and a high-end
>> photo
>> app should support editing also in this color space.
>
> Why? Because you say so?
wow, the return of the cmyk wars
Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 11:49 PM, Sven Neumann wrote:
>
>> GIMP already provides that. You can ask for a Soft Proof and it will
>> show you an approximation of what will be printed based on the CMYK
>> printer profile you specified. It can also show you out-of-gamut
On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 11:49 PM, Sven Neumann wrote:
> GIMP already provides that. You can ask for a Soft Proof and it will
> show you an approximation of what will be printed based on the CMYK
> printer profile you specified. It can also show you out-of-gamut colors.
Last time I did a softproof
Hi,
On Mon, 2009-03-23 at 15:27 -0500, Chris Mohler wrote:
> It is helpful to see an approximation of CMYK on the screen before you
> go to print - many colors available in the RGB color space fall
> outside of the CMYK gamut. RGB blue is likely the worst offender -
> fill an image with solid #0
FYI, my company writes most of its own output in PostScript for high end laser
printers (e.g., Xerox I-GEN 3 and 4). We avoid CMYK. But we're not a pre-canned
application company, we write everything ourselves. All of our printers work
great with RGB colorspace. The need for CMYK is usually base
On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 2:57 PM, Sven Neumann wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Mon, 2009-03-23 at 20:43 +0100, Martin Nordholts wrote:
>
>> The product vision states that "GIMP is a high-end photo manipulation
>> application" and that certainly includes support for editing images in
>> the CMYK color space.
>
Hi,
On Mon, 2009-03-23 at 21:02 +0100, Martin Nordholts wrote:
> Yes, processing shall as long as possible be done in RGB, but at some
> point you need to convert to the CMYK color space and a high-end photo
> app should support editing also in this color space.
Why? Because you say so? All high
Sven Neumann wrote:
> On Mon, 2009-03-23 at 20:43 +0100, Martin Nordholts wrote:
>
>> The product vision states that "GIMP is a high-end photo manipulation
>> application" and that certainly includes support for editing images in
>> the CMYK color space.
>>
>
> It certainly doesn't. Photos
Hi,
On Mon, 2009-03-23 at 20:43 +0100, Martin Nordholts wrote:
> The product vision states that "GIMP is a high-end photo manipulation
> application" and that certainly includes support for editing images in
> the CMYK color space.
It certainly doesn't. Photos are taken in an RGB color space. I
Sven Neumann wrote:
> We don't plan to support editing images in CMYK.
>
> Sven
>
The product vision states that "GIMP is a high-end photo manipulation
application" and that certainly includes support for editing images in
the CMYK color space. We can't call ourselves high-end without that
supp
Hi,
On Mon, 2009-03-23 at 14:31 -0500, Chris Mohler wrote:
> So to recap, I would welcome a printer-friendly PDF export if someone
> wants to work on it, though without CMYK support built-in it's not
> very useful just yet. From what I understand though, once GEGL
> integration is complete, any
2009/3/22 peter sikking :
> Sven wrote:
>
>>> bummer about the non-standard, but would industrial-strength TIFF
>>> in and export not be significantly more in line with our product
>>> vision than industrial-strength pdf in and export?
>>
>> Depends on what gets used nowadays. If professionals are
I send files to print shops every week. Here in argentina even serious
printers require proprietary file formats like AIs and CDR, though
they're fine with tiffs and PDFs.
I don't understand why there is so much interest in supporting PDF
export from GIMP, since the exported data will be only bitma
On Sun, Mar 22, 2009 at 11:13 PM, peter sikking wrote:
> so now we really need some trend spotting from those in our community
> who deal with serious printing jobs.
It's difficult to talk about trends with regards to printing industry
which tends to be quite conservative.
If you tell Scribus gu
Just my two cents;
TIFF is more important to GIMP because TIFF is widely used on printing and
CG works. Its a common practice to use TIFF images in professional page
layout programs like Scribus and Adode InDesign for example. And some 3d
programs (like zbrush) use TIFF for export texture maps (in
Sven wrote:
>> bummer about the non-standard, but would industrial-strength TIFF
>> in and export not be significantly more in line with our product
>> vision than industrial-strength pdf in and export?
>
> Depends on what gets used nowadays. If professionals are turning away
> from TIFF and start
Hi,
On Sun, 2009-03-22 at 19:33 +0100, peter sikking wrote:
> bummer about the non-standard, but would industrial-strength TIFF
> in and export not be significantly more in line with our product
> vision than industrial-strength pdf in and export?
Depends on what gets used nowadays. If professio
On Sun, 22 Mar 2009 21:23:24 +0300, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:
> Far more features supported.
>
> Install Scribus, go to File - Export - Save as PDF, then visit Fonts,
> Security, Color [...]
I assume it all depends on the application used for .pdf generation.
Adobe Distiller (& Acrobat) has a
Sven wrote:
> So would you say that it makes more sense to spend time improving the
> TIFF save plug-in or would it be a better idea to invest that
> development into a powerful PDF export? My experience with TIFF is
> that
> it is an extremely difficult format as most of the important features
Hi,
On Sun, 2009-03-22 at 09:47 -0500, Chris Mohler wrote:
> I see two possible use cases:
>
> 1. Proofing artwork - you need to prepare a proof before going to
> press. You send that proof to a client and they print it out and get
> a reasonable hard proof.
>
> 2. Submission to a printing com
2009/3/22 Cristian Secară wrote:
> What would be the advantage of handling a .pdf generation at
> application level instead of at operating system level ?
> (i.e. via print command)
Far more features supported.
Install Scribus, go to File - Export - Save as PDF, then visit Fonts,
Security, Color
On Sun, 22 Mar 2009 09:47:00 -0500, Chris Mohler wrote:
> I see two possible use cases:
>
> 1. Proofing artwork - you need to prepare a proof before going to
> press. [...]
>
> 2. Submission to a printing company - you need to submit hi-res
> artwork to a printing company.
> [...]
What would be
On Sun, Mar 22, 2009 at 6:19 AM, Sven Neumann wrote:
[...]
> I don't understand why that is needed. What is our goal here? To create
> PDF files as small as possible? IMO the goal for PDF export should be to
> improve support for professional printing. File size is not important
> for that. Paths
Hi,
On Sat, 2009-03-21 at 21:36 +0200, LightningIsMyName wrote:
> I believe that we should have the option to export multi-paged PDFs,
> since we have the option to import them, and to me it makes sense that
> we should be able to export what we can import.
The whole point of calling it "Import"
On 3/21/09, gg wrote:
> Despite the current obsession with this format it is pretty clunky and
> inflexible. I don't see much point for a single image.
Ahem, and what is your expertize to make such a bold statement?
> The other question is licensing of pdf. IRCC pdf viewing is allowed in a
> fai
Hello again,
On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 11:15 AM, Sven Neumann wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Fri, 2009-03-20 at 22:04 +0200, LightningIsMyName wrote:
>
>> 1. How will the user create multi-paged PDFs? Should he choose
>> different images, one for each page? (This sounds like the most
>> reasonable way compare
Hi,
On Sat, 2009-03-21 at 12:41 +0100, gg wrote:
> Indeed, what is the advantage of pdf export of a single image?
If it is just a simple PDF, then nothing. But if it includes color
profiles, support for spot colors, resolution-independent text layers,
crop markers etc., then it would be a versat
Hi,
On Sat, 2009-03-21 at 12:41 +0100, gg wrote:
> The other question is licensing of pdf. IRCC pdf viewing is allowed in a
> fairly liberal sense but creating pdf is what Abode make money on and
> retains the rights to.
I am pretty sure that this is not the case. The GIMP Print plug-in
create
gg wrote:
> Sven Neumann wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> On Fri, 2009-03-20 at 22:04 +0200, LightningIsMyName wrote:
>>
>>
>>> 1. How will the user create multi-paged PDFs? Should he choose
>>> different images, one for each page? (This sounds like the most
>>> reasonable way compared to other ways I
Sven Neumann wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Fri, 2009-03-20 at 22:04 +0200, LightningIsMyName wrote:
>
>> 1. How will the user create multi-paged PDFs? Should he choose
>> different images, one for each page? (This sounds like the most
>> reasonable way compared to other ways I thought of).
>
> Why would w
Hi,
On Fri, 2009-03-20 at 22:04 +0200, LightningIsMyName wrote:
> 1. How will the user create multi-paged PDFs? Should he choose
> different images, one for each page? (This sounds like the most
> reasonable way compared to other ways I thought of).
Why would we want to allow the user to create
Hi,
On Fri, 2009-03-20 at 19:15 +0200, Lightning LIMN wrote:
> I managed to export text while keeping the same appearance that it had
> in GIMP using PangoCairo. Exporting images with cairo was also
> possible if I saved the images first as PNGs and then used cairo PNG
> surfaces to draw them.
W
Hello,
I began experimenting with cairo to export PDFs of my GIMP images
several weeks ago. Today I saw the GSoC idea in this direction, and I
thought about mailing my thoughts.
I managed to export text while keeping the same appearance that it had
in GIMP using PangoCairo. Exporting images with
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