Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp - gimpshop - newbie
Hi list, answering this kind of questions and explainig why exactly we can not support GimpShop is a waste of time and done again and again and again... ... This clearly is a F.A.Q, which should we be able to answer by politely providing a link to an FAQ entry on gimp.org. This could save us lots of time which could be much better spend in further GIMP developement. So how about we put together the top ten arguments to the ten questions that is the most time wasted on the list(s)? This way we could shorten the "discussions" about "Why the GimpShop is not GIMP", "What we think about the Single Window Interface", "Why GIMP is proud of its name" and so on... Greetings, lexA ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp - gimpshop - newbie
On Monday 09 July 2007 00:11:09 Axel Wernicke wrote: > Hi list, > > answering this kind of questions and explainig why exactly we can not > support GimpShop is a waste of time and done again and again and again... > ... This clearly is a F.A.Q, which should we be able to answer by politely > providing a link to an FAQ entry on gimp.org. This could save us lots of > time which could be much better spend in further GIMP developement. > > So how about we put together the top ten arguments to the ten questions > that is the most time wasted on the list(s)? This way we could shorten the > "discussions" about "Why the GimpShop is not GIMP", "What we think about > the Single Window Interface", "Why GIMP is proud of its name" and so on... > It seems to me there are two issues which seem to be confused and rolled into one seeminly illogical construct. 1. Whether some contributors to this list should take it upon themselves to try and stop other contributors, who either wish to discuss gimpshop issues from doing so. 2. Whether gimpshop should be declared as being officially supported by the list owners. On the first point my reaction to those adopting an authoritarian position is "come on guys loosen up". It gives the impression that a few people with an axe to grind want to freeze out gimpshop rather than encouraging any extensions of gimp, of which gimpshop is one, to mature. A failure to encourage imaginative inititiatives and development discourages expanision of a vigourous development community. IMHO what gimp needs, for its future growth, is much more energetic development community capable of bringing gimp to the point where it supports current technological requirements and standards. When one considers hao far behind the curve gimp is in supporting current needs and standards, (no 16 bit per channel support, flaky printing, no built in support for camera raw files, a clumsy gui that is not at all easy to use (especially for those trained in photoshop) and which does not compare favourably with standards set by photoshop. In such circumstances discouraging gimpshop developers and users seems to be irrational, dictatorial and counterproductive. 2. Whether to declare gimpshop as being "officially supported" is quite another matter. IMHO no user of this list is entitled to "expect support" even for the basic gimp. So my conclusion is to encourage negative thinklers to just back off. If anyone does want to discuss gimpshop issues and others care to join in (and I have evidence that they do) then those who do not want to do so would make a vaulable contribution to gimp by remaining silent. Lets work together to make the community larger and therefore stronger. Gimp needs to mature. It suffers from feature starvation in many crucial areas (one of which gimpshop has begun to solve) and anyone willing to work on or test such extensions should not IMHO be discouraged. my two pennorth David Southwell ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp - gimpshop - newbie
On Sunday 08 July 2007 14:37:01 Manish Singh wrote: > On Sun, Jul 08, 2007 at 02:42:22PM -0700, David Southwell wrote: > > I rather gather there are those who disparage gimpshop and wish it to > > fail and those who wish it to succeed but are afraid of offending some > > members of the former group. > > > > Maybe gimp could benefit from a more catholic and generous approach being > > espoused by everyone. > > Maybe the creator of GimpShop should have respected the GIMP community > instead of rejecting it. He did not consult anyone on any of the GIMP > lists at all as to proper approaches, or even showed any interest in > actually making useful contributions. > > Since GimpShop rejects the GIMP community, we respect that decision and > do not support it here. If you have issues with this, take it up with > the people who do GimpShop. They can't reject the community yet expect > simultaneously expect it to provide support. > Expectation is one thing. IMHO this response sounds like short term thinking maintained by by malevolent thinking. In the long term gimp needs an interface that will attract inductry standard users. It does noit have one. An appropriate response by this list is to encourage gimpshop back into the fold BECAUSE it has something valuable to contribute. Anything less is biting off ones nose to spite one's face. While your attitude may be understandable in the circumstances surely you must see that it does not make other feel this is a friendly, welcoming and thoughful community driven by a determination to act in the long term interests of users. IMHO it would be better to think of long term benefit rather rely on emotianally driven anger. That does not mean provide "official" or "expected" support. Just stop spitting or discouraging legitimate dialogue. David Southwell ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp - gimpshop - newbie
David Southwell ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > On the first point my reaction to those adopting an authoritarian position > is "come on guys loosen up". It gives the impression that a few people with > an axe to grind want to freeze out gimpshop rather than encouraging any > extensions of gimp, of which gimpshop is one, to mature. To be frank, we - as the main Gimp developers - have been insulted by the gimpshop developer(s?) by them just taking our code, messing with it and just *no* communication. Additionally - as outlined earlier - the technical solutions used by Gimpshop are bad and hackish. E.g. Changing the strings to be more Photoshop-like immediately kills any of the dozends of translations we have available. Every Gimpshop Mail on this list annoys me, because of this abuse of gimp. This is the reason why we are touchy and not willing to "loosen up". Please go ahead and create a mailinglist for gimpshop. This is not the place for it. Bye, Simon -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://simon.budig.de/ ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp - gimpshop - newbie
On Mon, 9 Jul 2007 02:11:09 -0700 David Southwell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > It seems to me there are two issues which seem to be confused and > rolled into one seeminly illogical construct. > > 1. Whether some contributors to this list should take it upon > themselves to try and stop other contributors, who either wish to > discuss gimpshop issues from doing so. > > 2. Whether gimpshop should be declared as being officially supported > by the list owners. > > On the first point my reaction to those adopting an authoritarian > position is "come on guys loosen up". It gives the impression that a > few people with an axe to grind want to freeze out gimpshop rather > than encouraging any extensions of gimp, of which gimpshop is one, to > mature. This list is hosted by the GIMP project. If you want to discuss another project that openly rejected GIMP and refused to listen to the team's advices on how to properly implement Gimpshop to benefit from bugfixes and new releases, you can do so by finding another list or creating one yourself. You can't ask the GIMP project to not moderate the mailing list they host. Noone forces you to use this list if you dislike the way it is moderated. Karine ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp - gimpshop - newbie
On Monday 09 July 2007 02:05:43 Karine Delvare wrote: > On Mon, 9 Jul 2007 02:11:09 -0700 > > David Southwell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > It seems to me there are two issues which seem to be confused and > > rolled into one seeminly illogical construct. > > > > 1. Whether some contributors to this list should take it upon > > themselves to try and stop other contributors, who either wish to > > discuss gimpshop issues from doing so. > > > > 2. Whether gimpshop should be declared as being officially supported > > by the list owners. > > > > On the first point my reaction to those adopting an authoritarian > > position is "come on guys loosen up". It gives the impression that a > > few people with an axe to grind want to freeze out gimpshop rather > > than encouraging any extensions of gimp, of which gimpshop is one, to > > mature. > > This list is hosted by the GIMP project. If you want to discuss another > project that openly rejected GIMP and refused to listen to > the team's advices on how to properly implement Gimpshop to benefit > from bugfixes and new releases, you can do so by finding another list > or creating one yourself. > > You can't ask the GIMP project to not moderate the mailing list they > host. Noone forces you to use this list if you dislike the way it is > moderated. Who has asked anyone NOT to moderate?? Who benefits from such negativity? Noone -- it has certainly given me an impression of mean spritedness by a few and the practical experience of private generosity many. In fact I have received more private helpful emails from list users than there have been postings to the list. This seems to indicate that the authoritarian approach of a few is not really supported by the many. Who benefits from just sitting back if you do not want to contribute? Everyone. People who are not really happy about gimpshop do waste time trying to wag authoritarian fingers at those that do. A releaxed attitude makes everyone, except those who need to control others, happier. The community seems more welcoming and, who knows, either the attitude of gimpshop people may change or someone else might be encouraged to develop something like gimpshop in a more compatible way. Gimp desperately needs something like gimpshop. IMHO it is time to let go of anger and act in a mature and constructive way. David Southwell Does the list benefit from people wagging their finger and saying Who loses by j ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp - gimpshop - newbie
On Monday 09 July 2007 02:06:53 Simon Budig wrote: > David Southwell ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > > On the first point my reaction to those adopting an authoritarian > > position is "come on guys loosen up". It gives the impression that a few > > people with an axe to grind want to freeze out gimpshop rather than > > encouraging any extensions of gimp, of which gimpshop is one, to mature. > > To be frank, we - as the main Gimp developers - have been insulted by > the gimpshop developer(s?) by them just taking our code, messing with it > and just *no* communication. > > Additionally - as outlined earlier - the technical solutions used by > Gimpshop are bad and hackish. E.g. Changing the strings to be more > Photoshop-like immediately kills any of the dozends of translations we > have available. > > Every Gimpshop Mail on this list annoys me, because of this abuse of > gimp. This is the reason why we are touchy and not willing to "loosen > up". > > Please go ahead and create a mailinglist for gimpshop. This is not the > place for it. > Hold on to your anger if you must. But please do not inflict it on others or lose sight of longer term benefits and strategies ito the long term benefit of gimp. I hear your frustration and understand it. Can you noit see that the way you are responding to that friustration is counter-productive? Can you not see the anger and emotion is driving decision making rather than thoughtful & long term strategies. am not saying this to create dissension but becasue I am genuinely concerned that the "touchyness" you acknowledge is leading to decisions that will harm rather than benefit gimp. Can you not see that anger and touchiness provides the energy that leads to schism and "forks". Can you not see that the touchyness, anger and authoritarianism makes the whole project less attractive to potential developers. After all do you want to attract the type of developers who would want to to be involved in a community driven by such emotions? I suggest you treat gimpshop as an intermediate hack. Get the best out of it you can until someone is encouraged to dvevelop something more sophisticated. Leave those who discuss it on the list alone. Let a community build up who want something better and are willing to do it in the "giimp way". Take a long term view and please let go of that touchyness and anger - it will harm everyone who has it and the project will be infected by it. David Southwell ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp - gimpshop - newbie
On Sunday 08 July 2007 14:37:01 Manish Singh wrote: > On Sun, Jul 08, 2007 at 02:42:22PM -0700, David Southwell wrote: > > I rather gather there are those who disparage gimpshop and wish it to > > fail and those who wish it to succeed but are afraid of offending some > > members of the former group. > > > > Maybe gimp could benefit from a more catholic and generous approach being > > espoused by everyone. > > Maybe the creator of GimpShop should have respected the GIMP community > instead of rejecting it. He did not consult anyone on any of the GIMP > lists at all as to proper approaches, or even showed any interest in > actually making useful contributions. > You are reacting on a person centred rather than a project centred basis. It may be personally satisfying to you to believe you are punishing the gimpshop creator because you do not approve of what he did or how he did it. In fact you are only punishing those who might be drawn to use or contribute to gimp because gimpshop exists.IMHO it would be bnetter to let go of the negativity and explore long term positivity. Build up a community that wants something better but uses gimpshop as a temporary hack. Learn from gimpshop what is needed and then draw development energy from the community to develop something better. My plea is for you guys to stop using your guts to think and let your brains provide sound and constructive strategies for the long term benefit of gimp. David Southwell ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp - gimpshop - newbie
David Southwell ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > I suggest you treat gimpshop as an intermediate hack. Get the best out of it > you can until someone is encouraged to dvevelop something more sophisticated. That simply is impossible, since the "solutions" of Gimpshop are no solutions. I tried to explain that already, but you apparently do not understand the impact of changing strings in the sourcecode. The hacks of Gimpshop simply cannot be applied to the gimp, they are technically too bad. Sorry for the harsh words, but this is reality. And in case you missed it, we are in a very intense process of looking at the gimp user interface and improving it. People comparing the current 2.3 development version with 2.2 tend to like the changes a lot. I prefer this way over just emulating parts of the Photoshop interface. Do you accept this as a not-blinded-by-emotion answer? Bye, Simon -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://simon.budig.de/ ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp - gimpshop - newbie
David Southwell ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > IMHO it is time to let go of anger and act in a mature and > constructive way. Ok, lets just open up this list and make it a gimpshop list as well. And a Photoshop list. And a Paintshop Pro list. And a Krita list. They all offer something that gimp urgently needs, hence it can be discussed here. The usefulness of this list would go towards zero, but whatever. This obviously benefits the greater goal of giving gimp what it apparently needs. To make my point clear: Gimpshop has changed the user interface of the gimp in a more-or-less drastical manner. Advice given for Gimpshop cannot be applied to Gimp and vice versa. It is a different project, and the developers of Gimpshop obviously have no interest in playing nice with us Gimp developers. Please discuss that stuff elsewhere. This is not the place since advice given on Gimpshop will confuse Gimp users and vice versa. Go, create a gimpshop mailinglist - it is not as if ressources for mailinglists are hard to get on the net. Bye, Simon -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://simon.budig.de/ ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp - gimpshop - newbie
On Mon, 9 Jul 2007 12:06:22 +0200, Simon Budig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > David Southwell ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > > I suggest you treat gimpshop as an intermediate hack. Get the best out of > > it > > you can until someone is encouraged to dvevelop something more > > sophisticated. > > That simply is impossible, since the "solutions" of Gimpshop are no > solutions. I tried to explain that already, but you apparently do not > understand the impact of changing strings in the sourcecode. > > The hacks of Gimpshop simply cannot be applied to the gimp, they are > technically too bad. Sorry for the harsh words, but this is reality. Just to clarify a bit... The GIMP developers are not opposed to some of the ideas included in Gimpshop, but are opposed to the way they are implemented. Some users would like an interface that is similar to Photoshop in the terms that it uses and the menus that it offers. That's fine. Some users prefer an interface in which all windows (images, tools, etc.) are attached to a main window. That's also fine. If these options are implemented correctly, they will be included in a future version of GIMP and will be supported. But as several developers have already pointed out, Gimpshop did it wrong both from a technical perspective and from a social perspective. Instead of using the existing infrastructure for replacing/translating strings and for customizing menus, Gimpshop modifies the source code directly and makes it very difficult to share code with the standard GIMP (every upgrade requires a code re-write). And instead of discussing the best solutions and the best way to proceed together with the GIMP developers, the author of Gimpshop refused to consider the technical advice and decided to maintain a fork instead of an add-on. Gimpshop is different from GIMP because it is a fork of an older version, it has some bugs that GIMP doesn't have, its menus are different, etc. It makes sense to have a separate mailing list for discussing issues specific to that fork, in order to avoid confusing GIMP users with advice that relates to a different program. -Raphaël ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp - gimpshop - newbie
< lots of snip > > > Build up a community that wants something better but uses gimpshop as a > temporary hack. Learn from gimpshop what is needed and then draw development > energy from the community to develop something better. > > My plea is for you guys to stop using your guts to think and let your brains > provide sound and constructive strategies for the long term benefit of gimp. I have been following this discussion and I think I can understand both points of view, to some extent. I have never heard of gimpshop and I read this list to learn about and to try to understand Gimp. Anything else is, in my opinion. irrelevant and should not appear here. Norman ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp - gimpshop - newbie
On Monday 09 July 2007 04:30:06 norman wrote: > < lots of snip > > > > Build up a community that wants something better but uses gimpshop as a > > temporary hack. Learn from gimpshop what is needed and then draw > > development energy from the community to develop something better. > > > > My plea is for you guys to stop using your guts to think and let your > > brains provide sound and constructive strategies for the long term > > benefit of gimp. > > I have been following this discussion and I think I can understand both > points of view, to some extent. I have never heard of gimpshop and I > read this list to learn about and to try to understand Gimp. Anything > else is, in my opinion. irrelevant and should not appear here. > Well gimpshop is an attempt (somewhat flawed, to provide a GUI for gimp that replicates the GUI for photoshop. basically it builds gimp as a dependency and hacks the gui so someone with photoshop experience can use gimp. To that extent it is very relevant because the majority of people who manipulate photographic images use photoshop. Currently gimpshop is a hack which if it were either more efficient or an alternative photoshop gui was available gimp would draw tens of thousands of users who would then see gimp as a viable alternative to photoshop. That would mean more developers, features and a bigger and better community of users. IMHO gimpshop is a great idea. According to some its developers have not behaved well -- my guess is there are two sides to the story. The important thing is to look to what can be provided not what can be stopped!! Currently all I am suggesting is that people with a history of scores to settle need to keep quiet and if others want to talk about gimpshop then let them do so. Noone is saying any single individual should feel obliged to contribute to those discussion. Let us be mature, open and flexible rather than driven by hostility. IMHO Developers have their struggles.. users are only interested in functionality rather than the politics of past struggles. David Southwell Davd ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp - gimpshop - newbie
On Monday 09 July 2007, Sven Neumann wrote: > I just tried to help you by pointing out that gimpshop is a > different application and that you should try to get support > for it from the people who did the fork. If you did that you > might have found out that there is no such support. You might > then reconsider your decision, but that is of course > completely up to you. Hi, Sven! I appreciate the help you've given me at various times over the years, and I suspect that an ideal route to follow at this point might be to add a Wiki entry which carefully, politely explains this in great detail. Then future queries can be answered like this: GimpShop is a different product to GIMP. Read about the differences and support issues here: http://wiki.gimp.org/gimp/GimpShop I'd happily write up such a page but I know practically nothing about the background of GimpShop, so I've just put a brief stop-gap into the Wiki. I've linked to GimpShop and PhotoShop (both on Wikipedia), so if that's not the right thing to do, please erase the links. Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/Member, Linux Professionals WA http://osia.net.au/ Member, Open Source Industry Australia http://linux.org.au/Committee Member, Linux Australia ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp - gimpshop - newbie
David Southwell wrote: "Currently all I am suggesting is that people with a history of scores to settle need to keep quiet and if others want to talk about gimpshop then let them do so. Noone is saying any single individual should feel obliged to contribute to those discussion. Let us be mature, open and flexible rather than driven by hostility. IMHO Developers have their struggles.. users are only interested in functionality rather than the politics of past struggles." 1. GIMP and GIMPShop are two different projects. 2. This mailing list is for users of the GIMP. 3. This mailing list is not for users of GIMPShop. What part of this do you not understand? It is of no relevance whether you think that you should be able to discuss GIMPShop on this list or not. This list is not for discussion of GIMPShop. People have tried to explain this to you, but you appear unable to understand. Please just stop, this noise is distracting and irrelevant. ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp - gimpshop - newbie
On Mon, 9 Jul 2007 05:02:19 -0700, David Southwell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > That would mean more developers, features and a bigger > > and better community of users. IMHO gimpshop is a great idea. According to > some its developers have not behaved well -- my guess is there are two sides > to the story. The important thing is to look to what can be provided not what > can be stopped!! Unfortunately, more users does not automatically mean more developers and more features. In some cases, this is even the opposite: some projects have seen their number of developers decrease as the number of users increased, because the community became worse (large number of conflicting user requests, unrealistic expectations, developer burn-out, etc.). You claim that there are "two sides to the story" regarding the development of Gimpshop. This may be the case, but I encourage you to take a look at the archive of the gimp-developer mailing list and find the early discussions about Gimpshop. Then see the suggestions about how to do it "right" and what happened since then (hint: Gimpshop is still a fork using modifications to the source code instead of being an add-on). As I wrote in my previous message, the GIMP developers are not opposed to some of the ideas included in Gimpshop, if only they were implemented in a correct way. The developers are open to suggestions and are looking at alternative solutions whenever possible. Just check the recent usability enhancements in SVN if you are not convinced about that. > Currently all I am suggesting is that people with a history of scores to > settle need to keep quiet and if others want to talk about gimpshop then let > them do so. Noone is saying any single individual should feel obliged to > contribute to those discussion. I don't think that I have a history of scores to settle with Gimpshop. If fact, I do not even remember contributing to previous discussions (I haven't checked, though). But please be a bit more open yourself and consider what others have written in the last days. Discussions about Gimpshop tend to create confusion on this list. Even if we ignore the technical and political aspects of how Gimpshop was implemented, the simple fact that any discussion about Gimpshop on this list tends to generate noise should be a sufficient reason to avoid such discussions in the future. This doesn't mean that Gimpshop is a taboo that should not be mentioned here. But instead of discussing it here, it would be much better to point users to a more specific mailing list. -Raphaël ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp - gimpshop - newbie
On Sunday 08 July 2007 14:37:01 Manish Singh wrote: > On Sun, Jul 08, 2007 at 02:42:22PM -0700, David Southwell wrote: > > I rather gather there are those who disparage gimpshop and wish it to > > fail and those who wish it to succeed but are afraid of offending some > > members of the former group. > > > > Maybe gimp could benefit from a more catholic and generous approach being > > espoused by everyone. > > Maybe the creator of GimpShop should have respected the GIMP community > instead of rejecting it. He did not consult anyone on any of the GIMP > lists at all as to proper approaches, or even showed any interest in > actually making useful contributions. > > Since GimpShop rejects the GIMP community, we respect that decision and > do not support it here. If you have issues with this, take it up with > the people who do GimpShop. They can't reject the community yet expect > simultaneously expect it to provide support. > This is a developer grudge centric response. There are millions of trained photoshop users out there. Most modern software seperates the view or (GUI) from the Model and the controller. This means that developing alternative skins (gui's) becomes s straightforward process. Maybe this discussion could be turned into examining the question -- How easy would it be to focus on facilitating the development of alternative skins (gui's) for gimp? A gui that emulates photoshop is really needed . Really gimpshop is part of gimp.. the version of gimpshop running on my system depends upon the latest version of gimp. David Southwell ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp - gimpshop - newbie
On Sunday 08 July 2007, David Southwell wrote: > On Sunday 08 July 2007 12:07:55 Sven Neumann wrote: > > Hi, > > > > On Sun, 2007-07-08 at 07:48 -0700, David Southwell wrote: > > > I just want to make clear that people who are accustomed to be > > > positively helpful deserve encouragement and others, not of that > > > disposition, IMHO contribute more to this worlld when they remain > > > silent. > > > > I just tried to help you by pointing out that gimpshop is a different > > application and that you should try to get support for it from the > > people who did the fork. If you did that you might have found out that > > there is no such support. You might then reconsider your decision, but > > that is of course completely up to you. > > Am I not correct in saying that gimpshop a tool using gimp? Judging by the > helpful replies I have received gimpshop is also of considerable interest > to many users of gimp who use this list. > > It might be considerably improved by a being better supported by those who > are advocates of gimp. > > I rather gather there are those who disparage gimpshop and wish it to fail > and those who wish it to succeed but are afraid of offending some members > of the former group. > > Maybe gimp could benefit from a more catholic and generous approach being > espoused by everyone. > > IMHO the gimp community could benefit from the offer of an interface that > more closely resembles photoshop. How that might be achieved maybe another David, it's just not worth it. The powers on this list are frighteningly short-sighted when it comes to discussions like you are proposing. Even though a large chunk of the list feels differently, they will moderate you eventually into the ground. ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp - gimpshop - newbie
On Mon, 9 Jul 2007 20:08:26 +0800, Leon Brooks <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Then future queries can be answered like this: > > GimpShop is a different product to GIMP. Read about > the differences and support issues here: > > http://wiki.gimp.org/gimp/GimpShop > > I'd happily write up such a page but I know practically nothing > about the background of GimpShop, so I've just put a brief > stop-gap into the Wiki. Thanks a lot for this good idea! I have updated this wiki page and provided a link to a GIMPshop forum that may be helpful for GIMPshop users. If anybody finds more mailing lists or forums dedicated to GIMPshop, feel free to add the relevant links to that page. I have also added a short description of some technical problems related to the fork (code conflicts, breaking translations) and again, this section can be expanded if anybody feels like writing more about it. Now I hope that we can get back to discussing GIMP on this list... -Raphaël ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp - gimpshop - newbie
Hi Brendan, > David, it's just not worth it. The powers on this list are frighteningly > short-sighted when it comes to discussions like you are proposing. Even > though a large chunk of the list feels differently, they will moderate you > eventually into the ground. > Well, "a large chunk" is suitably vague, but I just want it clear that many of us also appreciate the moderation. I don't appreciate people like David Southwell coming in and trying to turn the list into something that it is not, which is a list about Gimp. It is not about Gimpshop, or ImageMagick, or CinePaint, or whatever. The fact that he can find some help is not the point - you could probably find people on this list interested in political candidates or global warming, but this is not the place for those discussions. In my opinion. -- --alex http://alexfeldman.org begin:vcard fn:Alex Feldman n:Feldman;Alex email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED] title:Retired tel;work:208-426-3374 tel;home:208-386-9164 x-mozilla-html:TRUE version:2.1 end:vcard ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp - gimpshop - newbie
Em 2007/07/09, às 11:06, Simon Budig escreveu: And in case you missed it, we are in a very intense process of looking at the gimp user interface and improving it. People comparing the current 2.3 development version with 2.2 tend to like the changes a lot. I prefer this way over just emulating parts of the Photoshop interface. In fact some of its improvements are getting better than what's avalable in Photoshop :) Yeah! Victor Domingos___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp - gimpshop - newbie
On Monday 09 July 2007, Alex Feldman wrote: > Hi Brendan, > > > David, it's just not worth it. The powers on this list are frighteningly > > short-sighted when it comes to discussions like you are proposing. Even > > though a large chunk of the list feels differently, they will moderate > > you eventually into the ground. > > Well, "a large chunk" is suitably vague, but I just want it clear that > many of us also appreciate the moderation. I don't appreciate people > like David Southwell coming in and trying to turn the list into > something that it is not, which is a list about Gimp. It is not about > Gimpshop, or ImageMagick, or CinePaint, or whatever. The fact that he > can find some help is not the point - you could probably find people on > this list interested in political candidates or global warming, but this > is not the place for those discussions. > > In my opinion. David had Gimpshop in one thread, big deal. People get so sensitive about one guy discussing one topic which is confusing. If the topic doesn't get replies, then it dies. Now a wiki exists to explain to people like David why the people who run Gimp feel the way they do. All done. Now you can get back to discussing whatever you were discussing. If one topic on a mailing list ruins your day, perhaps you should look into lightening up. ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp - gimpshop - newbie
On Monday 09 July 2007, Alex Feldman wrote: > Hi Brendan, > > > David, it's just not worth it. The powers on this list are frighteningly > > short-sighted when it comes to discussions like you are proposing. Even > > though a large chunk of the list feels differently, they will moderate > > you eventually into the ground. > > Well, "a large chunk" is suitably vague, but I just want it clear that And I am only going on the "large chunk" of emails I got when I was talking about Gimpshop. All of them from list members. ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp - gimpshop - newbie
On Monday 09 July 2007, David Southwell wrote: > A gui that emulates photoshop is really needed. If it were done as a "wrapper" idea over standard GIMP, and integrated, I could easily agree with that. Much better again if it were modular, so you could enable and disable PS-ish chunks. The current gung-ho we-know-better approach is hardly conducive to co-operation, and I suspect that the result will be a "poor man's clone" of PS, one which continually lags behind both PS and GIMP. Abandoning core GIMP work to support it will hurt GS first up because it will stop providing better platforms from which to build the clones, & second up by making PS more of a false "standard" to which GS must constantly be in pursuit. With this in mind, the ideal thing to do is to start (without, of course, asking the GS developers) a "GimpShop Clone" which is a more modular menuing system for GIMP, expressed as a PS-like overlay. Call it PhotoGIMP and listen to the whinging! (-: Things like a PS plugin-plugin would be a worthy but I think separate project. Amongst other things, you could probably convince such a beastie to run essentially headless. Call it PhotoFactory and see what other whinges arise? It would be in the spirit of the thing to do overlays for TuxPaint, GPhoto, MS-Paint or whatever as well. Anyway, that's my 2c worth. End of conversation, I suspect. Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/Member, Linux Professionals WA http://osia.net.au/ Member, Open Source Industry Australia http://linux.org.au/Committee Member, Linux Australia ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp - gimpshop - newbie
On Mon, 9 Jul 2007 09:20:12 -0400 Brendan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > And I am only going on the "large chunk" of emails I got when I was > talking about Gimpshop. All of them from list members. Why doesn't this "large chunk" of users create a gimpshop mailing list (or forum or whatever), instead of sending private e-mails in fear of being moderated? It would be much more convenient. Karine ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp - not-gimpshop
On Monday 09 July 2007, Raphaël Quinet wrote: > I have updated this wiki page Excellent! Thank you! > I have also added a short description of some technical > problems related to the fork (code conflicts, breaking > translations) and again, this section can be expanded > if anybody feels like writing more about it. Yah, it's an area I have little expertise on. Good to see some knowledge appearing here. (-: > Now I hope that we can get back to discussing GIMP on > this list... Ah, yes. One overlay I'd like to see appear is *not* a PS clone, it's an overlay that makes GIMP instantly useful to newbies, so runs things in modes and fashions they expect. This would have to be a separate project of sorts, with its own lists and stuff else it would cause list flooding to pale today's events into total insignificance. I'd like to see it done in a sort of minimalist fashion, modifying as little as possible to meet the expectations of its anticipated user-base. I'll probably get slandered for suggesting this, but... nothing ventured, nothing pained (or something like that). How about calling it "Wilbur" out & out, as a way of signifying a cute & cuddly GIMP? Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/Member, Linux Professionals WA http://osia.net.au/ Member, Open Source Industry Australia http://linux.org.au/Committee Member, Linux Australia ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp - gimpshop - newbie
[slightly reordering the quotes] David Southwell ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > Really gimpshop is part of gimp.. the version of gimpshop running on > my system depends upon the latest version of gimp. This is backwards logic. We - as the GIMP developers - have no influence on Gimpshop. Hence it cannot be a part of the Gimp. If at all it is the other way around: Gimpshop needs Gimp to work, hence (a specific version of) Gimp is part of Gimpshop. > A gui that emulates photoshop is really needed . I don't think so. If people want to have a GUI that behaves like Photoshop, then they should simply use photoshop. It might surprise you, but we don't actually have a problem with people making that descision. > There are millions of trained photoshop users out there. Most modern > software > seperates the view or (GUI) from the Model and the controller. This > means > that developing alternative skins (gui's) becomes s straightforward > process. > Maybe this discussion could be turned into examining the question -- > How easy > would it be to focus on facilitating the development of alternative > skins > (gui's) for gimp? We already have two "gui"s - the classical Gimp user interface and a commandline tool, which does not even link against GTK+ (the library for displaying the buttons/windows/menus on the screen). Granted, the latter is not exactly an exiting interface, but it shows, that the image manipulation core and the GUI are pretty well separated at the moment. So, the separation you want is there. However, the largest chunk of code in the GIMP deals with the User interface. If one wants to exchange this against another user interface he would have to write an awful lot of code. Not exactly easy. And for a separation inbetween through the GUI I don't see an obvious "cutting" point. Bye, Simon -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://simon.budig.de/ ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
[Gimp-user] Making GIMP more newbie-friendly (Was: Gimp - not-gimpshop)
Original-Nachricht Datum: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 21:43:40 +0800 Von: Leon Brooks <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> An: gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu Betreff: Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp - not-gimpshop > On Monday 09 July 2007, Raphaël Quinet wrote: > > Now I hope that we can get back to discussing GIMP on > > this list... > > Ah, yes. > > One overlay I'd like to see appear is *not* a PS clone, it's > an overlay that makes GIMP instantly useful to newbies, so > runs things in modes and fashions they expect. So what would those be? I mean, I've used various graphics programs before, but GIMP was the only such program which I've used since I actually started with digital painting. And for the most part, it was all fairly logical and consistent - the only thing I had problems with in the beginning was how to draw circles and rectangles (but I am better now). Personally, I think the interface of GIMP works perfectly well. What's lacking is appropriate _documentation_ for what you can actually do with it - tutorials, to be specific. And here GIMP is sadly far behind Photoshop and other commercial applications. It's one thing to tell a newbie: "This is the text tool, and here is how it is used." That's important, technical stuff he needs to know, but when making decisions about what software to use such dry descriptions won't make him _enthusiastic_. Now, on the other hand, if he finds a tutorial that says: "Today we will show you how to make Giant Flaming Letters of Doom(TM) with GIMP!" - _then_ he will feel enthusiastic. Last summer I started collecting all those hundreds of links to art tutorials which would eventually become the Art Tutorials Wiki links list. Since I was using GIMP at the time - and I still am - I tried to get GIMP tutorials first and foremost, but found few of them. On the other hand, there were plenty of first-grade tutorials for Photoshop, Painter, and other commercial programs out there. Many of them would make you go out and buy these programs - if you didn't know that you could create the same effects with GIMP with little effort. So if we want to make GIMP more newbie-friendly, I think we should let the developers continue to develop the program by adding new functions instead of spending too much time emulating other programs. The rest of us who aren't as well versed in coding can try to create tutorials that will make others enthusiastic about GIMP. I already have started to do that - I've started on a tutorial which attempts to explain how to draw fantasy maps with GIMP and Inkscape: http://artwiki.wikidot.com/digital-cartography And I've gotten some enthusiastic feedback from various people interested in doing so. But that's just one possible topic - so pick your own and work on it! - Jürgen Hubert The Art Tutorials Wiki http://artwiki.wikidot.com/ ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp - gimpshop - newbie
On Monday 09 July 2007 05:18:23 Raphaël Quinet wrote: > On Mon, 9 Jul 2007 05:02:19 -0700, David Southwell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > That would mean more developers, features and a bigger > > and better community of users. IMHO gimpshop is a great idea. According > > to some its developers have not behaved well -- my guess is there are two > > sides to the story. The important thing is to look to what can be > > provided not what can be stopped!! > > Unfortunately, more users does not automatically mean more developers > and more features. In some cases, this is even the opposite: some > projects have seen their number of developers decrease as the number of > users increased, because the community became worse (large number of > conflicting user requests, unrealistic expectations, developer burn-out, > etc.). > > You claim that there are "two sides to the story" regarding the > development of Gimpshop. This may be the case, but I encourage you to > take a look at the archive of the gimp-developer mailing list and find > the early discussions about Gimpshop. Then see the suggestions about > how to do it "right" and what happened since then (hint: Gimpshop is > still a fork using modifications to the source code instead of being > an add-on). > > As I wrote in my previous message, the GIMP developers are not opposed > to some of the ideas included in Gimpshop, if only they were > implemented in a correct way. The developers are open to suggestions > and are looking at alternative solutions whenever possible. Just > check the recent usability enhancements in SVN if you are not > convinced about that. > > > Currently all I am suggesting is that people with a history of scores to > > settle need to keep quiet and if others want to talk about gimpshop then > > let them do so. Noone is saying any single individual should feel obliged > > to contribute to those discussion. > > I don't think that I have a history of scores to settle with Gimpshop. > If fact, I do not even remember contributing to previous discussions > (I haven't checked, though). But please be a bit more open yourself > and consider what others have written in the last days. Discussions > about Gimpshop tend to create confusion on this list. Even if we > ignore the technical and political aspects of how Gimpshop was > implemented, the simple fact that any discussion about Gimpshop on > this list tends to generate noise should be a sufficient reason to > avoid such discussions in the future. This doesn't mean that Gimpshop > is a taboo that should not be mentioned here. But instead of > discussing it here, it would be much better to point users to a more > specific mailing list. > I hear you but do not agree with you entirely. Destructive discussion about whether gimpshop discussion between consenting adults should be allowed or not is like proposing the baby should be put out with the bathwater. There seem to be plenty of emotional reasons for doing so but no compelling logic for trying to ban it and it is the attempt to stamp it out that creates confusion.. not discussion between consenting adults. If discussion about gimpshop is left to those that want to discuss it then no harm is done but goodwill is earned by the gimp project. Such a simple step would show maturity -- anything else can be interpreted as an attack of juvenile pique. It seems to me that confusion on the list is created not by discussing gimpshop but by trying to rationalise an authoritarian approach to discussion. When all is said and done all that gimpshop does is create an alternative GUI for gimp. It does not do it well -- it could be done better but it is the best photoshop like gui that gimp has got. Until it gets better then the gimp community take full advantage of it and the fact that the gimpshop development team is not exactly bursting with energy. I do not know the history of how gimpshop developers and gimp developers fell out with one another. Frankly I amd most users do not care about how that happened but I am more concerned about how the future. I would like to see a viable photoshop emulating gui for gimp and 16+bit per channel, decent raw file handling and a far more easily customisable working environment that builds on industry wide knowledge. My guess is that if the code for gimp had been developed in accordance with MVC guidelines then the arguments between developers might not have arisen. That poses the question -- how can gimp code be developed so that the creation of alternative GUI's are facilitated? Thanks again David Southwell ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp - gimpshop - newbie
On Mon, Jul 09, 2007 at 05:36:44AM -0700, David Southwell wrote: > On Sunday 08 July 2007 14:37:01 Manish Singh wrote: > > On Sun, Jul 08, 2007 at 02:42:22PM -0700, David Southwell wrote: > > > I rather gather there are those who disparage gimpshop and wish it to > > > fail and those who wish it to succeed but are afraid of offending some > > > members of the former group. > > > > > > Maybe gimp could benefit from a more catholic and generous approach being > > > espoused by everyone. > > > > Maybe the creator of GimpShop should have respected the GIMP community > > instead of rejecting it. He did not consult anyone on any of the GIMP > > lists at all as to proper approaches, or even showed any interest in > > actually making useful contributions. > > > > Since GimpShop rejects the GIMP community, we respect that decision and > > do not support it here. If you have issues with this, take it up with > > the people who do GimpShop. They can't reject the community yet expect > > simultaneously expect it to provide support. > > > This is a developer grudge centric response. > > There are millions of trained photoshop users out there. Most modern software > seperates the view or (GUI) from the Model and the controller. This means > that developing alternative skins (gui's) becomes s straightforward process. > Maybe this discussion could be turned into examining the question -- How easy > would it be to focus on facilitating the development of alternative skins > (gui's) for gimp? > > A gui that emulates photoshop is really needed . > > Really gimpshop is part of gimp.. the version of gimpshop running on my > system > depends upon the latest version of gimp. Wow, everything you've said in this post is pretty much wrong. Same thing goes for most of your other posts. You write a lot but actually say very little. You clearly don't do any research before you make your assertions. I question that you have even used Photoshop, since you seem to think the half-assed things GimpShop does to emulate Photoshop really makes PS users comfortable. Please stop posting to the list, as all you can seem to do is post misinformation and assertions that you cannot back up. -Yosh ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
[Gimp-user] Feature request list for publishers.
1. Ability to work with and save files using CMYK color model. 1a. Use ICC profiles for viewing and exporting CMYK model files. 2. Clean up the code for exporting PostScript and Encapsulated PostScript files. I have on occasion dug into the source code and changed things like the unnecessary default offsets but I am not prepared to do this for each new release I get. Motivation: some of us use Open Source software exclusively. The nearest OS rival to Photoshop is Gimp in terms of functionality. Publishers need to work in CMYK and sometimes in spot color. There have been little steps toward the CMYK color model but not a complete adoption. Other programs, some not nearly as well developed as Gimp, manage to handle the choice between CMYK and RGB without difficulty. When you open up Krita for example that is the first decision you make. But Krita is embryonic and not ready for me at least to use. Scribus also handles both color models, as does TeX. These are both production programs. -- John Culleton Able Indexing and Typesetting Precision typesetting (tm) at reasonable cost. Satisfaction guaranteed. http://wexfordpress.com ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp - gimpshop - newbie
On Mon, 2007-09-07 at 07:55 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Destructive discussion about whether gimpshop discussion between consenting > adults should be allowed or not is like proposing the baby should be put out > with the bathwater. > Look David, I'm a GIMP user and I don't appreciate questions and answers on this this that do not directly relate to GIMP. Imagine a new user hearing a solution to their question answered in a Photoshop way and then going to the GIMP and finding out it doesn't work. Please do not confuse these two DIFFERENT projects. As others have said if you want Gimpshop support, start your own list. This list is about GIMP, it's what the list owners meant when they created it, leave it at that. ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp - gimpshop - newbie
Manish Singh wrote: > Please stop posting to the list, as all you can seem to do is post > misinformation and assertions that you cannot back up. I would take it one more step and request that no one respond to any more posts on this discussion. David, you're a troll, please drop this issue. -- Until later, Geoffrey Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. - Benjamin Franklin ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp-user Digest, Vol 58, Issue 10
> I do not know the history of how gimpshop developers and gimp developers fell > out with one another. Frankly I amd most users do not care about how that > happened but I am more concerned about how the future. I would like to see a > viable photoshop emulating gui for gimp and 16+bit per channel, decent raw > file handling and a far more easily customisable working environment that > builds on industry wide knowledge. David, It seems to me that with your needs and wants and attitude, you are better off just buying and using Photoshop. You must remember that with FOSS like the GIMP, sometimes you need to invest your own time into making it work in your workflow... like finding another package to handle your RAW files, and then importing them into the GIMP. If you absolutely need and demand all the these things now, then just go with the commercial product, and don't worry about the GIMP. Regards, Mike ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp-user Digest, Vol 58, Issue 10
* Michael Clark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [07-09-07 16:30]: > It seems to me that with your needs and wants and attitude, you are > better off just buying and using Photoshop. You must remember that > with FOSS like the GIMP, sometimes you need to invest your own time > into making it work in your workflow... like finding another package > to handle your RAW files, and then importing them into the GIMP. If > you absolutely need and demand all the these things now, then just go > with the commercial product, and don't worry about the GIMP. Please explain what this has to do with the "Subject:" you have provided? While I agree that "David" is riding a dead horse that should be smelling up some other forum, you should show a little consideration yourself with your postings :^) -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USAHOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535@ http://counter.li.org ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
[Gimp-user] selections workflow???
Im going to go nuts - i do not understand the gimp work flow with selections. When I paste an element on to a layer, i can no access the area of the layer not covered by the element. In on specific example, I moved the contents of a layer slightly to the right. This left a small column of transparency on the left edge. I have tried to select this are to fill or brush but using several different selection tools, but it appears that the element is currently selected and I can not deselect it. I have been "dealing" with this ALL afternoon and give up. I am confident that this is may lack of understanding and hoping someone can show me the light. Thank you and regards, tom ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] selections workflow???
On 7/9/07, Tom Davidson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Im going to go nuts - i do not understand the gimp work flow with > selections. > > When I paste an element on to a layer, i can no access the area of the layer > not covered by the element. In on specific example, I moved the contents of > a layer slightly to the right. This left a small column of transparency on > the left edge. I have tried to select this are to fill or brush but using > several different selection tools, but it appears that the element is > currently selected and I can not deselect it. Sorry - I forgot to 'reply-all'. Try 'layer->layer to image size'. Be aware that if a portion of the layer is outside of the image (the right-hand edge in your example), it will be thrown away. If this is not what you want, use 'Image->Fit Canvas to Layers' then 'Image->Layer to Image Size'. Chris ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
