· Quoth Larry:
˸ So let’s not make the mistake of thinking something
˸ longer is always less confusing or more official.
⋮ I already have too much problem with people thinking the
⋮ efficiency of a perl construct is related to its length.
So you’re saying the Law of Parsimony has its uses…
Alex Elsayed wrote:
On Thursday 28 May 2009 4:54:50 pm Daniel Carrera wrote:
On the other hand, distributing Parrot bytecode (or PIR, or PASM) seems
fine. But I don't know what to suggest for modules that require a C
compiler.
The problem with that is that Rakudo isn't the Official
Timothy S. Nelson wrote:
I can confirm that Redhat supports multiple versions:
$ rpm -q kernel
kernel-2.6.27.5-117.fc10.i686
kernel-2.6.27.12-170.2.5.fc10.i686
kernel-2.6.27.5-117.local.fc10.i686
AFAIK the way RPM implements multiple versions is by making an
entirely different package.
* Daniel Carrera (daniel.carr...@theingots.org) [090528 16:07]:
Mark Overmeer wrote:
In March 2006, Sam Vilain and I started to think about a new CPAN
what we named CPAN6. There is a lot of information about the project on
http://cpan6.org
I know about CPAN6, thanks. It's come up a couple
Mark Overmeer wrote:
I know about CPAN6, thanks. It's come up a couple of times on IRC.
Perhaps you could hang out on the IRC channel so we don't have different
people going off in different directions with CPAN.
It's not a discussion like let's make a change to the current set-up,
so IRC
* Alex Elsayed (eternal...@gmail.com) [090528 22:17]:
While lurking in IRC, I've seen several discussions of what CPAN 6 should
look like.
I would really like to see a split in terminology being used for the
various seperate problems. The traditional confusion about what CPAN is:
an archive
* Daniel Carrera (daniel.carr...@theingots.org) [090529 08:17]:
Workshops, Hackathons and YAPCs are more suitable.
But those venues are not available on a day-to-day basis.
At least, you get the time to discuss it in depth. Some even basic meta-
data issues are just too complex for the short
Mark Overmeer wrote:
* Daniel Carrera (daniel.carr...@theingots.org) [090529 08:17]:
Workshops, Hackathons and YAPCs are more suitable.
But those venues are not available on a day-to-day basis.
At least, you get the time to discuss it in depth. Some even basic meta-
data issues are just too
* Daniel Carrera (daniel.carr...@theingots.org) [090529 09:38]:
He (from NZ) stayed at my place (in NL) for a few days before YAPC::EU
2007 (UK) where we gave a presentation about the subject. The results
are in the initial paper page 22-24
The discussion did not happen on this mailing list?
On Fri, 29 May 2009, Daniel Carrera wrote:
Timothy S. Nelson wrote:
I can confirm that Redhat supports multiple versions:
$ rpm -q kernel
kernel-2.6.27.5-117.fc10.i686
kernel-2.6.27.12-170.2.5.fc10.i686
kernel-2.6.27.5-117.local.fc10.i686
AFAIK the way RPM implements multiple versions
On Fri, 29 May 2009, Mark Overmeer wrote:
* Daniel Carrera (daniel.carr...@theingots.org) [090528 16:07]:
Mark Overmeer wrote:
In March 2006, Sam Vilain and I started to think about a new CPAN
what we named CPAN6. There is a lot of information about the project on
http://cpan6.org
I know
Author: wayland
Date: 2009-05-29 13:33:54 +0200 (Fri, 29 May 2009)
New Revision: 26959
Modified:
docs/Perl6/Spec/S22-package-format.pod
Log:
[S22] Updated bad terminology that I created yesterday to the better
terminology that Mark Overmeer created ages ago.
Modified:
Timothy S. Nelson wrote:
While I've no objection to building the end-user software to support
multiple repositories, I know that there are certain segments of the
community who are very very keen to keep everything in the one
repository.
After reading the Zen of Comprehensive Archive
On Fri, 29 May 2009, Mark Overmeer wrote:
* Alex Elsayed (eternal...@gmail.com) [090528 22:17]:
While lurking in IRC, I've seen several discussions of what CPAN 6 should
look like.
I would really like to see a split in terminology being used for the
various seperate problems. The
On Fri, 29 May 2009, Daniel Carrera wrote:
Timothy S. Nelson wrote:
While I've no objection to building the end-user software to support
multiple repositories, I know that there are certain segments of the
community who are very very keen to keep everything in the one repository.
After
* Timothy S. Nelson (wayl...@wayland.id.au) [090529 11:26]:
I'd like to suggest to Mark and Daniel that, seeing as I won't be
making it to any Perl event outside Australia, and maybe not even some
inside, and Mark can't keep up with IRC (my sympathies there), that the
best place for
* Daniel Carrera (daniel.carr...@theingots.org) [090529 11:42]:
Timothy S. Nelson wrote:
While I've no objection to building the end-user software to
support multiple repositories, I know that there are certain segments
of the community who are very very keen to keep everything in the
On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 08:10:41PM -0500, John M. Dlugosz wrote:
John Macdonald john-at-perlwolf.com |Perl 6| wrote:
However, the assumption fails if process is supposed to mean that
everyone is capable of generating Unicode in the messages that they
are writing. I don't create non-English
* Timothy S. Nelson (wayl...@wayland.id.au) [090529 12:02]:
On Fri, 29 May 2009, Mark Overmeer wrote:
* CPAN6; this is a piece of software for managing an archive network (such as
Pause6, below). This is not specified in this document; see
http://cpan6.org/
Yes. It facilitates
On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 6:52 AM, John Macdonald j...@perlwolf.com wrote:
Yep, I've done that.
But comparing the difference in effort between:
- press a key
- Google for a web page that has the right character set, cut, refocus, paste
means that I don't bother for the one or two weird
* Nicholas Clark (n...@ccl4.org) [090529 14:07]:
On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 02:43:13PM +0200, Mark Overmeer wrote:
CPAN shall not piggyback another language -- from ZCAN.
Judging from the ZCAN page, I don't expect that uploading Ruby modules
to CPAN will go well, even if that module can
Nicholas Clark wrote:
On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 02:43:13PM +0200, Mark Overmeer wrote:
* Daniel Carrera (daniel.carr...@theingots.org) [090529 11:42]:
CPAN shall not piggyback another language -- from ZCAN.
Judging from the ZCAN page, I don't expect that uploading Ruby modules
to CPAN will
* Daniel Carrera (daniel.carr...@theingots.org) [090529 14:24]:
I think that it would be a good idea to put Perl 5 and Perl 6 modules in
the same CPAN.
I have a very cowardous reply on this. My CPAN6 design supports both
sub-setting and super-setting archives. So, it can produce three
Mark Overmeer wrote:
CPAN is the Comprehensive Perl Archive Network.
Not the Comprehensive Perl 5 Archive Network.
What's in a name.
Much, actually. As the ZCAN document explains, the set of mirrors are
donated to Perl by various donors who agreed to hold *Perl* modules.
These computers do
On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 10:23 AM, Jon Lang datawea...@gmail.com wrote:
On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 6:52 AM, John Macdonald j...@perlwolf.com wrote:
Yep, I've done that.
But comparing the difference in effort between:
- press a key
- Google for a web page that has the right character set, cut,
Jon Lang wrote:
Agreed. Given the frequency with which « and » come up in Perl 6, I'd
love to be able to have a simple keyboard shortcut that produces these
two characters. Unfortunately, I am often stuck using a Windows
system when coding; and the easiest method that I have available to me
* Daniel Carrera (daniel.carr...@theingots.org) [090529 14:39]:
Much, actually. As the ZCAN document explains, the set of mirrors are
donated to Perl by various donors who agreed to hold *Perl* modules.
These computers do not belong to us. If the donors agreed to hold Perl
modules, it
On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 04:23:56PM +0200, Mark Overmeer wrote:
What's in a name.
Is it also
CPAN is the Comprehensive Parrot Archive Network
CPAN is the Comprehensive Pieton Archive Network
CPAN is the Comprehensive Pony Archive Network
CPAN is the Comprehensive PHPArchive
On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 10:56 AM, Austin Hastings
austin_hasti...@yahoo.com wrote:
Agreed. Given the frequency with which « and » come up in Perl 6, I'd
love to be able to have a simple keyboard shortcut that produces these
two characters.
Windows; set keyboard to US-International. Right-alt
On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 11:07 AM, Daniel Carrera
daniel.carr...@theingots.org wrote:
Mark Overmeer wrote:
The problem is more serious. Perl6 installation needs to have multiple
versions of the same module installed in parallel (and even run within
the same program!).
Why?
See
Em Sex, 2009-05-29 às 01:54 +0200, Daniel Carrera escreveu:
Larry Wall wrote:
I support the notion of distributing binaries because nobody's gonna
want to chew up their phone's battery doing unnecessary compiles. The
ecology of computing devices is different from ten years ago.
By
While lurking in IRC, I've seen several discussions of what CPAN 6 should
look like. Honestly, wayland76++'s idea for packaging seems the best to me.
Most of the suggestions so far, especially those based on alien, apt, yum,
or other existing package managers have a few major problems:
* Alien
On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 10:02:20PM +1000, Timothy S. Nelson wrote:
On Fri, 29 May 2009, Mark Overmeer wrote:
IMO, that discussion should go in the direction of additional services:
the CPAN archive distributes what authors publish. The install tools
(CPAN.pm/CPANPLUS/successors) make that
Back to the question of cool things about perl6- after showing some
of the extended syntax and its expressiveness, put up a slide saying
it's still Perl.
Show that much of the basics still work:
my @x=('a' .. 'z'); @x[3,4]=qw(DeeDee Ramone);
say @x.splice(2,4).join(',')
c,DeeDee,Ramone,f
the
On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 10:47:44AM -0400, Buddha Buck wrote:
: The questions which remain (for me, at least) is if (a) the symbols
: survive in email, and (b) if they really are the proper marks for
: Perl6.
Yes, and yes.
Me, I just defined a compose key, and compose does the right thing.
On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 05:32:16PM +0200, Mark Overmeer wrote:
: Perl6 and Perl5 have some things in common, just like PHP and Perl5.
:
: Perl 6 is the next version of Perl 5 and Perl 6 comes with a Perl 5
: compatibility mode and Perl 6 is intended to be able to use Perl 5
: modules.
On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 04:32:00PM +0200, Mark Overmeer wrote:
: * Daniel Carrera (daniel.carr...@theingots.org) [090529 14:24]:
: I think that it would be a good idea to put Perl 5 and Perl 6 modules in
: the same CPAN.
:
: I have a very cowardous reply on this. My CPAN6 design supports
On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 09:50:36AM -0700, yary wrote:
: Back to the question of cool things about perl6- after showing some
: of the extended syntax and its expressiveness, put up a slide saying
: it's still Perl.
:
: Show that much of the basics still work:
: my @x=('a' .. 'z');
Larry Wall wrote:
I think this is an important point, philosophically. The internet,
and later the web, both succeeded primarily because they unified
identity *without* resorting to centralization (except to bootstrap
the top-level nameservers, of course). But identity must not be
confused
I'm using the PGE/PCT tools for working with grammars on Parrot, and I
have to say that while there's a lot of power, there's very little
debugging support. What's more, the debugging that is possible seems to
be parrot debugging --i.e., single-stepping through routines, etc. --
instead of
Daniel Carrera wrote:
Btw, if the majority wants to start uploading Ruby, Python and Lua
modules to CPAN, we can rename CPAN so that the P stands for something
else that doesn't mean anything. Comprehensive Peacock Archive
Network? Comprehensive Platypus Archive Network?
my (@C,@P,@A,@N);
Can't help you with PGE, but STD supports a trace facility by
setting the STD5DEBUG environent variable to -1, or a set of bits
defined in src/perl6/Cursor.pmc in the pugs repo.
Note the log uses ANSI color, so you might want to use less -R
or some such.
Larry
On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 07:26:11PM +0200, Daniel Carrera wrote:
Btw, if the majority wants to start uploading Ruby, Python and Lua
modules to CPAN, we can rename CPAN so that the P stands for something
else that doesn't mean anything. Comprehensive Peacock Archive
Network? Comprehensive
Sorry, didn't do a reply-all on this.
---BeginMessage---
How about Parrot?
I think the original point, along with one of the original claims for
Parrot, was that Parrot would not just be the Perl internals engine
but would be general enough to run other languages. (Specifically, there
are
John Macdonald wrote:
On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 07:26:11PM +0200, Daniel Carrera wrote:
Btw, if the majority wants to start uploading Ruby, Python and Lua
modules to CPAN, we can rename CPAN so that the P stands for something
else that doesn't mean anything. Comprehensive Peacock Archive
On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 11:20:20AM -0700, Larry Wall wrote:
Can't help you with PGE, but STD supports a trace facility by
setting the STD5DEBUG environent variable to -1, or a set of bits
defined in src/perl6/Cursor.pmc in the pugs repo.
I'll look at what STD is using for its traces and see if
John Macdonald john-at-perlwolf.com |Perl 6| wrote:
On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 08:10:41PM -0500, John M. Dlugosz wrote:
John Macdonald john-at-perlwolf.com |Perl 6| wrote:
However, the assumption fails if process is supposed to mean that
everyone is capable of generating Unicode in the
John Macdonald wrote:
Comprehensive Programming Archive Network.
Another problem with Programming is that it assumes that other
languages will actually use the system. We don't know that currently
and it is a bit presumptions to assume that they will. It would look
awkward if only Perl used
On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 10:04:39AM -0700, Larry Wall wrote:
On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 09:50:36AM -0700, yary wrote:
: Show that much of the basics still work:
: my @x=('a' .. 'z'); @x[3,4]=qw(DeeDee Ramone);
: say @x.splice(2,4).join(',')
: c,DeeDee,Ramone,f
That qw is not a good example
Buddha Buck blaisepascal-at-gmail.com |Perl 6| wrote:
In response to this thread, I activated the US International
keyboard layout, and once that's done theoretically one can get
Spanish style quote mark with RightAlt+[ and RightAlt+] like so: «
and ».
The questions which remain (for me, at
Jon Lang dataweaver-at-gmail.com |Perl 6| wrote:
On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 6:52 AM, John Macdonald j...@perlwolf.com wrote:
Yep, I've done that.
But comparing the difference in effort between:
- press a key
- Google for a web page that has the right character set, cut, refocus, paste
means
Hello,
I finished reading S22 (CPAN [DRAFT]). This synopsis is about the
package format, not about the network. I have some comments:
1) Instead of calling the format JIB, how about PAR? It can stand
for Perl ARchive or the recursive PAR ARchive. This is more memorable.
2) S22 proposes the
Daniel Carrera wrote:
4) Lastly, while we are at it, why don't we add a signature file to the
_par directory?
_par/
META.info
CHECKSUMS.asc
The CHECKSUMS.asc file would contain the SHA1 sums of every file in the
archive except for itself. The file could be GPG-signed with
* Daniel Carrera (daniel.carr...@theingots.org) [090529 19:55]:
Btw, if we do go ahead with this meta CPAN idea, it'll be important to
divide the network into self-contained groups. Earlier I used the word
target. Alternatively we could say platform. Example platforms could
include:
Mark Overmeer wrote:
And the next consideration: when we have a piece of software which
administers Perl5 or Perl6 or Nokia.bin or Elf. Why stop there?
What is the overlap? It is basically all just some blob of data with
some associated meta-data to search and retreive the blobs. It is only
Author: lwall
Date: 2009-05-30 00:50:49 +0200 (Sat, 30 May 2009)
New Revision: 26968
Modified:
docs/Perl6/Spec/S04-control.pod
Log:
[S04] expand on C$! semantics, remove requirement for GC on block exit
Modified: docs/Perl6/Spec/S04-control.pod
Author: lwall
Date: 2009-05-30 00:57:54 +0200 (Sat, 30 May 2009)
New Revision: 26969
Modified:
docs/Perl6/Spec/S04-control.pod
Log:
[S04] typos
Modified: docs/Perl6/Spec/S04-control.pod
===
--- docs/Perl6/Spec/S04-control.pod
Buddha Buck blaisepascal-at-gmail.com |Perl 6| wrote:
On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 3:43 PM, John M. Dlugosz
2nb81l...@sneakemail.com wrote:
Buddha Buck blaisepascal-at-gmail.com |Perl 6| wrote:
In response to this thread, I activated the US International
keyboard layout, and once that's
On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 05:50:57PM -0500, John M. Dlugosz wrote:
Copy and paste it from the message into a word processor or other
program that lets you choose a font where it is not missing and make it
very large so you can see the details.
Or see http://www.marco.org/83873337 for a
On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 5:37 PM, Daniel Carrera
daniel.carr...@theingots.org wrote:
Mark Overmeer wrote:
And the next consideration: when we have a piece of software which
administers Perl5 or Perl6 or Nokia.bin or Elf. Why stop there?
What is the overlap? It is basically all just some blob
On Friday 29 May 2009 1:51:40 am Mark Overmeer wrote:
I would really like to see a split in terminology being used for the
various seperate problems. The traditional confusion about what CPAN is:
an archive or an install tool. Package manager discussions are in the
process AFTER the install
On Fri, 29 May 2009, Jon Lang wrote:
On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 6:52 AM, John Macdonald j...@perlwolf.com wrote:
Yep, I've done that.
But comparing the difference in effort between:
- press a key
- Google for a web page that has the right character set, cut, refocus, paste
means that I don't
Please see part 2 of my comprehensive explaination of the Perl 6
Information Model, at http://www.dlugosz.com/Perl6/web/lvalues.html.
This isn't linked up to my main page yet. I'm taking comments and
further discussion here before I make it public.
--John
I had some thoughts lately about the Perl 6 operators, and wanted to bounce some
ideas.
Firstly, regarding the string replication ops as documented in Synopsis 3, 'x'
and 'xx', I'm wondering whether it might be better to have something that
incorporates a '~', since that operation
On Fri, 29 May 2009, Austin Hastings wrote:
How about Parrot?
Because the SMOP Perl 6 implementation doesn't target Parrot, and
won't, and we want to include them too. Likewise other P6 implementations.
HTH,
-
I believe he is arguing that whatever we end up doing needs to make it
easy for an external package-manager to find out what files CPAN6.pm
is going to install, and where, and what the dependencies were (both
Perl and system libraries). So that the various distributions can
make native
On Fri, 29 May 2009, Mark Overmeer wrote:
* PAUSE6; this is an actual network based on the CPAN6 software (see
above). It also is not documented here.
Pause6 is one implementation of archive maintenance software. In the
first version written in Perl5, it implements things like
I know that Rakudo is not the official implementation. The problem is
that you misunderstood my post. I did not say to distribute PIR to the
exclusion of Perl source. You know that I was replying to Larry's
comment that he supported the notion of distributing binaries. Surely
you didn't think
Ah yes, on the PC historically you hold down the ALT key and type the
code with the numpad keys.
There's some standard that says this is how to generate unicode:
1.Hold down Ctrl+Shift
2.Press U
3.Type the hexadecimal for the unicode character
4.Release Ctrl+Shift
On Fri, 29 May 2009, Daniel Ruoso wrote:
So, I'd expect to have a Debian archive, in the Debian case, hosted by
the Debian Perl group (which packages about ~ 500 CPAN modules to Debian
today) with the binary packages targetting each of the Debian
versions...
The same would go for RedHat and
On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 6:53 PM, Darren Duncan dar...@darrenduncan.net wrote:
I had some thoughts lately about the Perl 6 operators, and wanted to bounce
some ideas.
Firstly, regarding the string replication ops as documented in Synopsis 3,
'x' and 'xx', I'm wondering whether it
On Fri, 29 May 2009, Alex Elsayed wrote:
This problem strikes me as intractable - I think the only thing we can do is
provide a dependency specifier, clearly tagged as being external to the CPAN 6
archive, with a sensible name that allows a human to intervene and find the
correct package for
On Fri, 29 May 2009, John M. Dlugosz wrote:
Ah yes, on the PC historically you hold down the ALT key and type the code
with the numpad keys.
At least when I used it, this was a decimal, rather than hex number,
and had to be preceded by a 0 (zero).
So if anyone is still on eg.
Wayland wrote:
Allow me to point something out. He wants to write a freely
available software package that can share data, and is useful for the
Perl6 environment. He's not suggesting that we have holiday photos on
CPAN-the-network,
I'm not sure about that. We were talking about what
On Fri, 29 May 2009, Alex Elsayed wrote:
IMO, that discussion should go in the direction of additional services:
the CPAN archive distributes what authors publish. The install tools
(CPAN.pm/CPANPLUS/successors) make that code fit in specific operating
systems. As a service, other people can
On Fri, 29 May 2009, Jon Lang wrote:
On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 6:53 PM, Darren Duncan dar...@darrenduncan.net wrote:
I had some thoughts lately about the Perl 6 operators, and wanted to bounce
some ideas.
Firstly, regarding the string replication ops as documented in Synopsis 3,
'x'
On Fri, 29 May 2009, Mark Overmeer wrote:
* Timothy S. Nelson (wayl...@wayland.id.au) [090529 11:26]:
I'd like to suggest to Mark and Daniel that, seeing as I won't be
making it to any Perl event outside Australia, and maybe not even some
inside, and Mark can't keep up with IRC (my
Jon Lang wrote:
I wouldn't mind 'x' becoming '~x' and 'xx' becoming 'x'; it strikes me
as a lot more intuitive - and I've wanted to see this done for a while
now. I suppose that you might also introduce a '?x' and/or a '+x' to
complete the set, though for the life of me I can't think of how
Timothy S. Nelson wrote:
How about if xx became x, and then we did things like:
[~] @list x $count
...to get the string replciation?
Maybe you meant this?
[~] $item x $count
I like that a lot.
And we could still have ~x as a shorthand for that specific case since it would
Resending to list
On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 9:53 PM, Darren Duncan dar...@darrenduncan.net wrote:
I had some thoughts lately about the Perl 6 operators, and wanted to bounce
some ideas.
Secondly, regarding the Bool type, I think it would be useful for Perl 6 to
define the full
Darren Duncan wrote:
Side note: one thing that I recently learned concerning implication
operators is that the direction of the implication doesn't necessarily
follow the direction of the arrow. In particular, A if B is A←B,
and A only if B is A→B: in both of the original statements, the
On Fri, 29 May 2009, Darren Duncan wrote:
Timothy S. Nelson wrote:
How about if xx became x, and then we did things like:
[~] @list x $count
...to get the string replciation?
Maybe you meant this?
[~] $item x $count
No, I'm pretty sure I meant what I wrote. But if x
Tim Nelson:
There's some standard that says this is how to generate unicode:
1.Hold down Ctrl+Shift
2.Press U
3.Type the hexadecimal for the unicode character
4.Release Ctrl+Shift
This works under GNOME, which also has a variant that is a little
friendlier to the fingers
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