Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
I was shocked to read this stuff. When I read about this awhile ago, I couldn't believe my eyes. It's not easy to know what, or whom, to believe. All I know is, this is deeply troubling. Most groups will have some kind of internal conflict at some time, which often interferes with accomplishing the goals that brought them together. Whatever's going on, I hope it gets straightened out soon, or it could cause people to reconsider who they're supporting. That would be very bad for the free software commjnity. So, to put it simply, I wish those involved would get together and talk- if they need a mediator, then have one, but please handle it privately. Peace, Misty
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
"I think part of the FSF missing something like "We believe in freedom and non-discrimination for that reason we will investigate the situation"" @Arder: Exactly! I'd add that it would also be comforting (yes onpon, I wrote comforting) for the Trisquel project to address this issue in some official way, as opposed to ignoring it as they seem to be doing. The organizations involved will benefit by being proactive about issues like this, regardless of the truth/falsity of Leah and Libreboot's accusations, in some official manner.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
"Harassment it is always complicated and not taken lightly" You think I take it lightly? On the contrary. But, knowing what I know from firsthand knowledge of some of the things that have happened I can 100% confirm that at least some of Leah's statements have mischaracterized at least some of the events. But at no point have I called Leah a liar. That's because there are very fine and subtle points to be made. So please don't mischaracterize anything I've said. I've said only that I have first hand knowledge that Leah has mischaracterized at least some of the events (and note that "at least some" does not mean "all") over the last number of weeks which, in my mind, creates reasonable doubt about the rest. I'm not taking any particular position on those other things that I don't have firsthand knowledge of because I can't know if they're accurately represented or not. That is another key point. Perhaps only those things which I know to be mischaracterized have been mischaracterized and nothing else. Perhaps not. I will probably never know. And so, I'm not not taking it lightly or calling Leah a liar. Only saying that, with what I know, it creates questions. It makes me wonder, nothing more and nothing less. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasonable_doubt "we will investigate the situation" You think they didn't?
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
And once again you're trying to make it about some sort of Ruben/Leah interaction. Please read https://trisquel.info/en/forum/if-rub%C3%A9n-harassed-libreboots-leah-rowe-he-should-be-fired-and-trisquel-shut-down#comment-102899 again. Ruben and Leah have not interacted at all.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
hehe, that was one of the first results yielded by searx images. Fellow user detected, mybe.. ^^ At first I wanted to gimp some fifty mangy dogs, each saying "gna", but realized immediately it would be a huuge time waster, hence I opted for the simple way. cia! :)
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
go ssip
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
Since Ruben has been silent, how did he "side" with this person against Leah? Did he calmly discuss it or did he laugh at Leah or name call?
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
Harassment is simpre complicated and not taken lightly and say that Leah is a liar and not really happen, these is complicated might be a bulling or something else but in any case I think part of the FSF missing something like "We believe in freedom and non-discrimination for that reason we will investigate the situation" should take a more neutral position if it really happened something more serious.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
"I do not know Ruben" I do and have for years. "Ruben should be involved and manifested in the mailing list, at least if I am innocent and do not believe in sexism and believe in equality would clear teh sutiation and apologize if necessary." Leah has never claimed that Rubén has harassed anyone. Rather than repeat what I said earlier I'll just link it: https://trisquel.info/en/forum/if-rub%C3%A9n-harassed-libreboots-leah-rowe-he-should-be-fired-and-trisquel-shut-down#comment-102953 And so, Leah is calling for Rubén to be fired not because he harassed anyone but only because of taking a side. And the side that was supposedly taken, as I show in a hypothetical situation that also happens to fit with the information Leah provides, could have been completely innocent. It's important to keep things straight over what people claim and avoid mixing things around. But, considering that Leah has been able to mischaraterize the conversation about leaving the GNU Project (see https://trisquel.info/en/forum/gnu-wont-let-libreboot-leave-ruben-mentioned-again-statement-his-involvement#comment-103145 for that), it makes me wonder if the nature of the conversation where Rubén supposedly "sided" with someone might be similarly mischaraterized. We'll probably never really know but Leah's track record (at least with the facts that I have been able to directly know myself first hand) is not so good.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
I just heard the news and was really shocked, it is a subject I've seen in other communities and groups towards liberation where sadly cases like this occur. Something in conclusion I can draw is: - RMS responded very objective and trying to calm things down. - Leah took it very personal, but when you're in a community like the free software, LGBTI etc., tend to defend yours, but could be more precise and a little more "diplomatic" if you can with something so serious. - I'm a defender of freedom and equality such freedom of gender and sexual identity and independent equality of your race, sex, religion, sexual identity, species and I think really if there was a case of harassment because if it were within a community and I find something similar my responsability is report it and would also defend. - I think the FSF if I try to keep its image, and should on the depth investigate the issue and should have taken more sobered something as delicate as harassment of someone LGTBI. - I personally have encountered sexist people in the free software community, and have had few discussions irc / xmpp in defense of equality, I do not know Ruben, I only crossed a few lines of text with and They were basically on their opposition to equality between species (veganism) and animal liberation things in which I believe and which somehow mocks once in the irc, in an era that sought to contribute more to Trisquel and I my mind think "in a space that speaks of freedom as possible scoff at the ideas of others" and from there I install Trisquel although in some places, I use Parabola and I fully support. - Ruben should be involved and manifested in the mailing list, at least if I am innocent and do not believe in sexism and believe in equality would clear teh sutiation and apologize if necessary.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
I don't know why you bring this up, but gender identity and who you are attracted to are two different things. Some people are attracted to both men and women, too (bisexuals). If you accept that a trans woman is a woman, then she is straight if she's attracted to men and a lesbian if she's attracted to women. If you reject that a trans woman is a woman, then he is straight if he is attracted to women and gay if he is attracted to men. That's all there is to it.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
> There's nothing wrong with an organization or software project making a statement in regards to the changes they want to make in order to become more inclusive. Changes such as...? You're making such a vague request, the only possible ways I can imagine the FSF doing what you want are: 1. Saying something to the effect of, "Yes, we will work to make the FSF more inclusive." Totally empty. 2. Going out of their way to replace straight white males with transgender, ethnic minority, gay, etc people. That would be discrimination. > This is a serious issue No, it really isn't.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
I'm glad I don't live from your perspective, onpon4. There's nothing wrong with an organization or software project making a statement in regards to the changes they want to make in order to become more inclusive. The following from the Hacker News post (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12525465=news) makes some good points in response to the argument that "technical progress" should be a priority in situations like these: This is a serious issue and you're not helping by trying to dismiss it as childish or otherwise delegitimizing it. It's very easy to say “technical progress” should be a priority when the issue in question doesn't affect you personally but that reflects a gross failure of empathy on your part rather than an argument against the Libreboot decision. Open source development, especially in the FSF's area, is generally about people volunteering their time and valuable expertise to contribute to a public good. It is simply unreasonable and unrealistic to suggest that people prioritize that goal over every other consideration. As a hypothetical, suppose the issue in question was anti-Semitism and a Jewish maintainer decided to leave – would you really tell them that they should just be focused on creating a free operating system? To be clear: I am not saying that this is a valid complaint, that the FSF is in the right or wrong, etc. I don't know any details about the incidents in question but I can see that it's a serious allegation which should not be arbitrarily dismissed. I hope that the FSF works to ensure that the community and potential new contributors can trust them to follow their stated policies.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
> I'm still hoping that Trisquel, GNU, and FSF come out with public statements stating that they're working on becoming more inclusive organizations, specifically as it relates to trans and other LGBT folks. Such a statement would be either without substance or a promise to discriminate. I don't see why you would want the former and I would vehemently oppose the latter. Also, Trisquel and GNU are not "organizations". They're software. The only organization here is the FSF.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
If she was talking about this thread, then I think Leah has a reading comprehension problem, because I have been one of the most outspoken people against her here. I assure you, I'm not self-hating. I don't think Leah has read this thread. She is probably talking about the Phoronix and Reddit threads.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
Based on the following, I'm thinking whomever updated the https://libreboot.org/gnu/ page has read this thread: Community reaction, and our response We in the libreboot project are shocked and dismayed by some of the community's overall transphobic and sexist responses to this whole ordeal. While many have been supportive, others have been hostile. In the first few days since the incident, reading several message boards, mailing lists and IRC channels, it's obvious that the topic has quickly shifted towards being about Leah Rowe, instead of the actual issues at hand. There are calls by some to even replace Leah Rowe as leader of the libreboot project, or to fork the libreboot project. Her sanity was questioned by the community, while others patronisingly say that she is going through a difficult time and is acting emotionally. Others have said flatout that she should not have raised these issues, or that she should have done it in a more professional manner. Tone policing. Respectability politics at its worst. Of course, it's true that women in society are taken far less seriously, so when a trans woman stands up for the rights of another trans person when that person is abused, she is considered crazy by some, and belittled by others. It's much harder for women - especially trans women - to be taken seriously in a community and industry that is still dominated by middle class white cisgendered men. The community's negative reaction to this news reflects a attitude of prejudice that is the reason a trans person was fired from the FSF in the first place. The libreboot project will stand firm, regardless of what peoples reactions may be. We're not going anywhere, and the project is always expanding. Most of all, we're disgusted with the FSF's damage control response, where apparently all they want to do is protect their reputation, without actually answering any of the calls against them, hoping that this issue will go away. It will not. I'm thankful most of the folks replying here don't work for the orgs in question and I'm still hoping that Trisquel, GNU, and FSF come out with public statements stating that they're working on becoming more inclusive organizations, specifically as it relates to trans and other LGBT folks.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
Just to clarify, it was Lisa Marie Maginnis - the employee who was fired from FSF. Leah is her friend, but we don't know if Leah if a transgender too
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
By being easily offended, Lisa Marie Maginnis has done a great harm to FSF. Libreboot will always be a GNU project, because it cannot exist without GNU software! You can't even approach this project without using GNU tools: GCC, flashrom, etc. etc. etc. We should save Libreboot from the madness of its' leads, and forking seems to be the only way!
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
I imagine the religion being referenced is probably Catholic, which I also am. It is not an injustice to embrace the theology of the body of the Holy Catholic Church. We all need to begin with mutual love and respect for each other. I understand that many people will disagree with my beliefs, as I do theirs. I disagree with the concept of transgender, as I assume many of the posters in this forum will disagree with the church's teachings on the virtues of chastity and purity. Still, the same religion that teaches me these things also teaches me that I need to see the face of Christ in others. One of the great things about free software is that it provides a space where people who are very different can cooperate and hopefully come to a place of mutual respect. I hope this situation cools to the point where everyone can reconcile. Hope is a virtue too, after all.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
I use an X200 laptop with Libreboot and Trisquel 7. I am grateful to Stallman, Rodríguez and Rowe for it; Stallman for starting the GNU OS, Rodríguez for starting the Trisquel distribution, and Rowe for starting Libreboot. By coincidence, I happened to have the chances to talk with the three of them, either in person or through e-mail. For me, having the three of them becoming enemies is like the end of the world. One has to stick to truth, though. This is a account of the story so far as reported to this forum: 1. One person is fired from the Free Software Foundation. This is a fact acknowledged by all, no controversy here. 2. The dismissed person isn't saying anything, at least publicly. Again, this is a fact. Some have asked not to name this person in order to preserve privacy, and I feel that to be right so I am keeping from writing the name - as long as this person doesn't willingly come up. 3. Rowe claims that "A transgender employee at the FSF was being harassed by a transphobic colleague for being trans" and is asking for three disciplinary dismissals at FSF: Sullivan, Mahood and Rodríguez. Now, this is not a witness' claim - as far as I know, the FSF workcenter is in the USA and Rowe works in UK, there is a ocean between those workcenters. This claim is not a fact, but an opinion from someone who didn't witness the actual events. 4. The FSF is denying the claim. Now, how will this matter evolve over time? i. At present, Rowe's claim is an unsubstantiated claim, backed by none - not even the alleged victim. If no change happens, time will judge Rowe's claim just as an unjustifiable, vicious attack on FSF. ii. Should the dismissed person accuse the FSF for discrimination, then the situation would be different. At least there would be a substantiated claim, there would be someone saying "this thing happened to me" - though it still had to be verified. Then either this person would sue the FSF for discrimination, of the FSF would sue this person for defamation, or both (or none, but I find that to be quite improbable). Then judgement on the case would be provided by the sentence(s). iii. Should not the dismissed person come up, there still could be grounds for a defamation suit against Rowe as long as Sullivan, Mahood and Rodríguez are named by Rowe in relation with the case. Should this happen, again judgement on the case would be provided by the sentence. In the meanwhile, having all kind of speculations running around is just harmful, as is the thread "If Rubén harassed Libreboot's Leah Rowe, he should be fired and Trisquel shut down" - I agree with Legimet who says, "Don't feed the troll".
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
tegskywal...@hotmail.com, Sáb 17 Set 2016 22:48:52 CEST: Its interesting that Rubén is mentioned in this post. I'm guessing since Rubén has a Hispanic background, there may be some religious upbringing on his behalf that may have fueled some discriminatory comments towards Leah. That is a racist comment. Ignacio Agulló · agu...@ati.es This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
You know, something just doesn't add up here. Very recently, the FSF's staff page was updated to remove the FSF's web developer, who was only indicated by a very generic pseudonym, and a job offer was posted for a Web developer. I assumed this was the staff Leah was talking about. But on Libreboot's contributors page, a completely different staff member who is still listed on the FSF's staff page is named, and her description says she "is not an FSF employee anymore". So, if (as I suspect) it is actually this other person mentioned on the Libreboot contributors page who was fired, then that tells me that Leah is not really as concerned about the staff person's anonymity as she lets on. After all, why on Earth would you take time out of your day to write something that specifically indicates who you're talking about when a basic investigation into the history of the FSF's staff page doesn't reveal this and even obfuscates who is being talked about?
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
I find her behavior appalling. What she doesn't seem to get is that she's probably done everything possible to turn the sympathy of the community away from her friend, no matter the truth behind the allegations. She has just publicly embarrassed herself and tarnished the reputation of libreboot. > Which is these people: > Stephen Mahood > Ruben Rodriguez hay, this action is likely to direct harassment towards the people named. It could be risking their personal safety, and that of disconnected parties, such as their families. We know how vicious people can be, especially when afforded anonymity over the Internet. and She wants donations returned!?? hay, That's not how donations work. You can't just turn around a year later and demand it back. I know Leah and I know the people accused. Leah's statements are without merit and twisted into things because she is mad. She has a clear history of making false and/or misleading statements against people and organizations she perceives to have wronged her. have fun and be free ali miracle
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
u mad bro
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
The FSF is welcoming as fuck. Have you eaten their cupcakes or gone to dinner with them? The shit's ALWAYS vegan, or has substantial vegan options. If that's not welcoming of minorities, I don't know what is.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
#NotYourShield
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
Thanks. I'm gay and and autistic, and I hate it when people treat me like I'm their pet and they can use me to put others down in the name of "defending" me.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
> She hasn't responded so I can only assume that she has lost her damn mind. Yeah, that's exactly my thought each time someone doesn't respond to my mail - if one does not he must have lost their mind. I mean, I am so special, how can you not answer a mail of mine?? :D I was always excellent in the art of play down ^^
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
"For me, Leah's story about the ex-employee rings true as I can imagine folks being hateful and ignorant in situations like that. IT HAPPENS at every workplace. I think this is the reason it potentially rings true to all of you as well, either because you've seen this kind of discrimination (sexism, transphobia, misogyny, racism, classism, etc...) yourself or you've done it yourself." Just because something happens generally, doesn't make it right to attribute that social dynamic to the individual accused people in this situation.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
i get the impression you might not know what the term actually means
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
inb4 the "muh SJW ruining our software" comments
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
I don't like the whole "-" button thing, but it's only hidden by default if you have JavaScript enabled until you click a button, so people can still read it.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
Regarding their public statement, it would have been unethical and unwise for the FSF to: * mention any details about the former employee, their employment situation, or why they no longer work for the organisation * doxx LR as the source of the allegations * mention any details about other FSF employees doxxed by LR * indicate any willingness to enter into a trial by internet, and risk attracting the sensationalist, scandal-mongering gutter press, whose only contribution would be to represent the software freedom movement as a 2 penny freak show AFAICT tell the FSF has taken the only ethical action available to them. They made a public statement that they don't make hiring/firing decisions based on arbitrary personal qualities, and affirming that they actively oppose discrimination, including transphobia, by linking to the Safer Spaces Policy used at FSF events: "The FSF is dedicated to providing a harassment-free LibrePlanet experience for everyone "Harassment includes offensive verbal comments related to gender, sexual orientation, disability, physical appearance, age, body size, race, religion, sexual images in public spaces, deliberate intimidation, stalking, following, harassing photography or recording, sustained disruption of talks or other events, inappropriate physical contact, and unwelcome sexual attention." https://libreplanet.org/2016/safe-space-policy/ BTW the original comment by jdenz (currently hidden) represents an influential set of opinions about how best to deal with discrimination issues. Although I disagree with most of it, I think it's an important comment for understanding where the safer spaces secret police are coming from on this issue (not to mention understanding the subsequent exchange between jdenz and onpon4). I think it should be unhidden by the mods.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
its seme she sJWS
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
I didn't look at its cover, I looked at the description, and it's filled with the type of stuff I see from social justice propaganda all the time. Also, nothing in the description is something I haven't heard before, and it's all stuff that I regard as illegitimate. I'm sorry, but you can't make me buy into your ideology by putting it into a book, giving it a description that includes nonsense I've already dismissed time and time again, and telling me that I should both pay money for that book and dedicate precious time that I could spend doing something far more worthwhile reading that book instead.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
Never judge a book by its cover, or something like that. :)
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
"Even if it has some merit I think it would be a mistake to assume that the FSF would be doing nothing about it behind closed doors. This is not an appropriate conversation to have with anyone outside of the organization." Yeah, I would hope so too. However, it's very difficult to tell this from the official FSF response about this issue. I think the FSF can do a better job with that response and let folks know they are (and maybe always do) handle things like this appropriately ... instead of appearing to deny and ignore. "And I certainly won't be suspending donations over what is almost certainly a false allegation." I don't know how you can say this without having more info. I mean, I get how you won't suspend your donations, but not how you know it's "almost certainly a false allegation." What do you all do at ThinkPenguin to ensure a welcoming, warm, safe environment for your employees?
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
> Bigotry is a much more up-front, in your face action whereas discrimination can take place in subtle ways You still have it wrong. Discrimination is treating people (or potentially other things) differently. Bigotry is a belief that a group of people is inferior to another group. These are two totally different things. Bigotry is backwards, but it's not unethical because it's just what someone believes. Discrimination based on bigotry is unethical because it's an actual action that affects people. > I'm curious what you all think of the book "Whipping Girl: A Transexual Woman on Sexism"? I couldn't care less. I've never heard of it and have no intention of reading it. From reading a description of it, it sounds like nothing more than propaganda.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
You make the assumption that it's not a warm and welcoming environment to begin with. The FSF has had other transgender persons (and LGBT folks). Nobody except for this one third party has ever made any claims indicating it's not warm and welcoming environment. The other people here who actually are transgender and/or LGBT and know the people involved well are saying none of what Leah Rowe is saying adds up. Even if we had someone that didn't have this past history of problematic claims we shouldn't just accept such a serious allegation as fact. It's only reasonable to assume innocence unless some pretty substantial evidence is provided to the contrary.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
Thank you for pointing these things out. I was unaware of the things you have pointed out. I failed to specify it in my original comment, but I do not condone the use of 'mental illness' to refer to 'alternative mental wirings'. My statement was meant to refer to the fact that being transgender, as well as some other various personal attributes, appear to derive from differences in the brain of the individual. However, they are not 'ill' and most definitely do not need to be 'cured'. I apologise if any offence was taken at the implication. I was unaware of any prior behaviour being associated. Presuming my interpretation of the statement is correct (some behaviours are exhibited which suggest this is not merely 'high emotions'), I still stand by the statements made above, with the modifications mentioned above, but cede that my judgement may be incorrect. As regards the need for compassion, I agree. Whilst I feel that Leah's behaviour needs to be addressed, she is suffering right now. She needs care and understanding more than anything right now.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
I never stated FSF/GNU/Ruben are guilty of what Leah Rowe claims. I do believe that they are not perfect and that they have a lot of room for growth, especially as it pertains to being inclusive and welcoming as individuals and as organizations. I'm confident of this statement because I know ALL of us have room for this kind of growth. I believe that there's enough possibility that something really shitty happened to this ex-employee as there is enough possibility that there is a serious misunderstanding or it's all made up. Either way, I think folks should take this seriously and withhold donations until it's ironed out. "HELL no. That would not be a "win", that would be an unreasonable concession." Ok, fair enough. What is your desired outcome from this? What would be a "win" for you and for other trans folks? In your opinion, what would be a win for those of us who've experienced similar issues with the FSF and Trisquel? To me, it's not about setting up a "protected class," per se. In this case, we're talking about transgender folks, but we could be talking about anyone, even old wealthy white dudes. I think it's about cutting through the bullshit of did it or did it not happen and moving into the healing process of what can we do to help more folks feel comfortable contributing to and working with the FSF, to GNU projects, Trisquel, and to Free Software in general. Sure, it's possible Leah Rowe and/or the ex-employee are making all of this up. Yet, even if that is the case, there's still room for the FSF/GNU and Ruben to grow from this experience and truly move towards a welcoming and warm environment for everyone.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
> The potential victim is an ex-employee of the FSF. Leah Rowe is doing the right thing by bringing attention to this issue and supporting the potential victim. No. Leah has not provided one shred of evidence for what supposedly happened, or even explained what supposedly happened. If her accusation is true, there are proper venues for the ex-employee to use. Spreading rumors is not one of them. > For me, Leah's story about the ex-employee rings true as I can imagine folks being hateful and ignorant in situations like that. I can imagine a Tyrannosaurus rampaging through New York City. That doesn't make it reality. I can also imagine plenty of reasons why a vindictive ex-employee who was fired for legitimate reasons might want to spread false allegations about her former employer. I'm not going to claim that's what's happening here; I don't know. But the point is, it's not rational to assume that the FSF is guilty of discrimination because someone says so (without even explaining what supposedly happened, let alone providing evidence) just because you can imagine it happening. > you've seen this kind of discrimination (sexism, transphobia, misogyny, racism, classism, etc...) yourself or you've done it yourself. Nope, never. And by the way, bigotry and discrimination are not the same thing, as you suggest they are. > It's equally wrong to say that Ruben (quidam) is completely innocent without seeing more information. No, it's wrong to do anything but presume innocence until evidence of guilt is presented. No evidence of guilt has been presented. > P.S. I single out Ruben here because I know he reads this forum No, he doesn't. He only reads what is specifically pointed out to him e.g. on IRC. > if he's not at least reading through this topic, then he's far more messed up than Leah describes. This is nonsensical drama based on accusations without evidence. It's quite funny, but I don't want Ruben wasting his time on this. > Ruben, you know what would win you a lot of points in this situation ... if you wrote a comment here admitting your imperfections, admitting that you need help understanding and accepting transgender folks, and asking for suggestions on how to make this forum, Trisquel, and the other projects you work on (maybe including the FSF) more inclusive. HELL no. That would not be a "win", that would be an unreasonable concession. Ruben doesn't need help "understanding and accepting transgender folks". Transgender people are just that: people. We don't need to be treated like some sort of protected class. I don't want to be in a protected class.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
"I'm in agreement with Leah that folks should stop donating to GNU and FSF until something more substantial has been done by them." Do you know what Innocent until proven guilty means ?
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
Ruben (quidam) and the rest of yous need to take this situation seriously and try hard not to blame the victim. The potential victim is an ex-employee of the FSF. Leah Rowe is doing the right thing by bringing attention to this issue and supporting the potential victim. The FSF's official response doesn't address the situation correctly nor adequately and it's clear that more work needs to be done within that organization ... that is, if the organization truly intends to be inclusive of all people. I'm in agreement with Leah that folks should stop donating to GNU and FSF until something more substantial has been done by them. As RMS stated, the official action taken by the FSF was unrelated to the gender of the employee. This may be true, however, he needs to insist that the FSF look into the UNOFFICIAL actions of its employees, especially those actions that may have caused this ex-employee harm. For me, Leah's story about the ex-employee rings true as I can imagine folks being hateful and ignorant in situations like that. IT HAPPENS at every workplace. I think this is the reason it potentially rings true to all of you as well, either because you've seen this kind of discrimination (sexism, transphobia, misogyny, racism, classism, etc...) yourself or you've done it yourself. Can the FSF make improvements to make their workplace safer and more welcoming to more people? Yes, definitely. It's wrong to say that somehow the FSF has a perfect work environment. It's equally wrong to say that Ruben (quidam) is completely innocent without seeing more information. Lots of things many take for granted may need to be changed in order to be a more inclusive and welcoming organization. For instance, the lack of co-ed bathrooms and not putting preferred gender fields in personnel files and on ID badges may contribute to a more difficult experience for transgender employees. So, no, the FSF and Ruben are not perfect and they never will be. It's now up to them to admit that they're not perfect and learn from their mistakes, even if their mistakes don't involve the situation Leah describes. They need to break through the machismo surrounding this conversation by humbling themselves and being open to the possibility that the three people Leah mentions did something hurtful. If they can't admit this basic fact about not being perfect and if they cannot remain open about this important issue, then yeah, Leah's totally right about them not deserving to be around anymore. P.S. I single out Ruben here because I know he reads this forum and he's one of the three folks listed by the Libreboot project as having to be removed from the FSF. I know he reads this forum because he recently posted in another forum topic (https://trisquel.info/en/forum/what-happened-freedom-fridays#comment-102880) and if he's not at least reading through this topic, then he's far more messed up than Leah describes. P.P.S Ruben, you know what would win you a lot of points in this situation ... if you wrote a comment here admitting your imperfections, admitting that you need help understanding and accepting transgender folks, and asking for suggestions on how to make this forum, Trisquel, and the other projects you work on (maybe including the FSF) more inclusive. We've all made mistakes, we all need to learn more about transgender and LGBT issues, and we all need to admit this to ourselves and to those around us.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
I think people tend to use the word 'mental health' to say it nicely. Leah may have a problem that is unrelated to being transgender even if her behaviour may somewhat resemble someone in an early phase of transitioning. What I think people are associating is paste behaviour which pre-date this transition. 'Mental health' is a term used to describe a wide range of health related problems and does not mean someone is 'crazy'.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
I agree with you that she is acting irrationally, and am also confident you have no intention of causing offence. However, please be aware that there is a difference between "strong emotions" (from which Leah is undoubtedly suffering right now) and "mental illness". Mental illness is a malfunctioning of the brain, whereby it behaves in such a way as to cause detriment to the human suffering from the illness. The term is also often used to refer to what I would call "alternative mental wiring", where the 'malfunction' is both permanent and harmless. Leah does exhibit such an alternative mental wiring (being transgender), but (as you have mentioned) that was not to what you were referring. In case it needs to be mentioned, I in no way condemn or believe such alternative mental wirings to be problematic; I myself exhibit one, and am not at all ashamed of it. High emotions often cause similar symptoms to certain mental illnesses, but they are not malfunctions. Rather, they are a core part of the human body's defence mechanism. Irrationality is not a failing of these, but rather a key part of maximising mental agility in situations where it is needed. Whilst I honestly do believe you had no intention of harming anybody, please do be aware that calling sudden outbursts of irrational or childish behaviour "mental illness" helps reinforce public stigma against and misunderstanding of mental illness. Recent public discussion of such issues has been extremely problematic in this regard, no doubt due to the presence of a high-profile political candidate whose behaviour is extremely offensive to an array of different groups, and it is thus particularly important now to ensure "mental illness" does not become synonymous with "offensive/irrational behaviour". Once again, please note that I do not take offence at your choice of words. I just hope you realise the potential damage such applications of the term "mental illness" cause, and will consider attempting not to use it in such contexts in future.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
It appears I can't edit the original comment, but you're right in saying there is no evidence for the claims. The statement "evidence is scarce" was regarding all accusations made (e.g. firing a trans employee), some of which are supported, but context didn't make that particularly clear. As regards your other statements, I agree whole-heartedly. I can't draw on personal experience, not being transgender myself. However, it both saddens and infuriates me to see Leah trying to exploit a perfectly legitimate cause to turn what appears to be a perfectly normal firing into a tech-media sensation. I accept that she is likely very emotional about this issue, and she has a right to be. I just wish she would direct that anger to the FSF privately first, rather than publicly smearing the most prominent free software organisation around over unfounded accusations.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
I guess I don't know what is going on then...
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
Absolutely not, I just thought she must be suffering from a mental illness because of the fact that she is acting irrational. She thinks that attacking the free software foundation because of what she thinks is discrimination by trying to get people to boycott/get them to leave even though she supports free software is a good idea. but the truth is, she is not thinking this through. Her project is tied to free software right? well why would she attack the very organization that gives her project life? isn't that irrational? I just thought as i connected the dots that she must be suffering from some mental illness, I am not trying to be offensive I assure you. On the contrary I would like to help her if I can get back to a wholeness where she can think straight. I wish those around her the best of luck trying...
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
Are you insinuating that she has a mental illness due to her transgender status?
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
It's patronizing and maybe unfair to attribute Leah's comments to "problems" (personal, mental health, whatever), I think. I agree with you in principle though ... everyone has problems and goes through difficult times. Great, now I'm patronizing and unfair too. Leah's allegation is more a conclusion than her version of the facts (I only know what I read in this topic). There's nothing substantive for the FSF to respond to. It doesn't tell us much that the FSF's conclusion is the opposite of Leah's, except that it is the opposite of Leah's. I can't help but wonder whether there is more to this story.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
There is no evidence she is suffering from a mental illness.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
hmm... I hope she can recover from whatever mental illness she is suffering from.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
I would agree wholeheartedly.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
Ah, but it does have the same form of anger... alas true and sad...
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
It seems that most people are seeing through the accusations regardless of what they see as the reason for the post. I don't think it's hurting the FSF is the least. There are legitimate gripes about the FSF, people within, and people at similar organizations, etc. However we need to step back and realize no organization and no person is perfect. Take a deep breath. I've had good friends essentially attack me who saw things from the other side of an issue. They said things like "I'll never work with anybody X list" where X list was signing in support of person Y who later turned out to be largely falsely accused. Person Y may not have been the nicest person in the world and he may have had a sexual social preference that some people didn't like, but that didn't make him a rapist.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
Its interesting that Rubén is mentioned in this post. I'm guessing since Rubén has a Hispanic background, there may be some religious upbringing on his behalf that may have fueled some discriminatory comments towards Leah. If Rubén gets axed, does that mean that Trisquel gets dissolved as well?
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
Just saw this from http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item=FSF-RMS-Statements-Libreboot: "Update: Leah Rowe has contacted me to say that there's now this Libreboot.org page with their side: Leah is now calling not just for the resignation/firing of the executive director but also the two employees allegedly involved in this incident. She is also calling for a boycott on the FSF and more projects to leave the GNU. She is also seeking that the Free Software Foundation refund $6120 USD she has reportedly donated to them since last year."
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
There is now an official announcement from Libreboot: https://libreboot.org/gnu/ This whole issue is wrong on so many levels and does so much harm to the GNU project, the FSF and (most of all) to Libreboot itself. Let's hope that all involved parties can soon talk things through and fix this once and for all.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
We should be supportive of Leah, but not of the accusations. It seems to me that the majority of people have problems. Some are more apparent than others and we should look at it in that context. If you had problems wouldn't you want people to support you as well? Leah has severe problems and we should look at it in this context. We should neither fry John, Rubén, or Stephen, nor be angry with Leah for making these accusations. What we need to do is take a deep breath and hope that Leah gets better.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
I know all the parties involved in this spat pretty well except for Stephen Mahood and at least for everybody else I'd say none are remotely homophobic or transphobic. Based on my experience with Leah is any indicator I'll probably be brought into this next for making this statement.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
> *Tehnoetic anger towards thinkpenguin/Luke* this is more than a forum spat
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
I tried emailing her to tell her in a more gentle tone that this isn't doing anyone any good. She hasn't responded so I can only assume that she has lost her damn mind. Read my post that is further down and you will get a good idea what I am thinking... *Tehnoetic anger towards thinkpenguin/Luke* that is what this reminds me of. Unjustified anger and foolishness...
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
Well if none of this is true at all, how sad that is then... I hope Leah changes her ways and realizes she was in the wrong. But moreover, this feels almost like the same anger that the founder of Tehnoetic had towards chris from thinkpenguin and Luke the creator of the EOMA68 standard... Another words, false and unnecessary... more and more curious... hm... regardless we shouldn't shun her or be mean to her, that will only make her feel justified in her anger. However, we shouldn't condone her actions either since they are not true. Very tricky... mhm.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
ruben rodriguez is sysadmin at fsf, and develops trisquel.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
" So is it true that libreboot leaves the gnu project?" Yes, Leah says she removed it from the GNU Project. That can be seen in her message although https://www.gnu.org/software/ still says it's a GNU Package but perhaps that just hasn't been updated. Although that question seems unimportant. Libreboot still exists regardless. The whole thing is, in my view, an overreaction to the events that happened especially given that they appear to be false.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
I hadn't either, but it takes seconds to confirm that it is the name of the Libreboot developer (just check the Git repository), and while you can't see it since you're not subscribed to the mailing list, the email address matches as well. (There's a "reply" button that will show you the email address after a redirect.) The main point, though, is that no one has been questioning the origin of these emails or their author's connection to Libreboot.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
I'm neutral in the issue But this is standard statement
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
name change same person
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
You aren't the only one thinking about it in this light: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/libreboot/2016-09/msg00055.html. I wonder how often employers consider this when employing trans people. I hate that things like this can ignite even without anything actually happening. I think that regardless of the truth of her statement, the way she handled it does more harm to the LGBT+ people in free software like us than anything else.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
The dismissal of the staff person was not because of her gender. Her gender now is the same as it was when we hired her. It was not an issue then, and it is not an issue now.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
The evidence isn't just scarce, there's no evidence at all. Misunderstanding or not, Leah is clearly in the wrong here. This type of behavior, making a public accusation without evidence in an obvious attempt to bring a hate mob against the FSF, is unethical. It's also only detrimental to the cause she claims to support; when people are ready to start a shitstorm any time a trans person gets fired for any reason, employing any trans person in the first place is a liability. On a personal level, I don't believe for a second that Leah's accusations are true.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
What are you talking about? If this were an impostor, Leah Rowe would be able to inform everyone about it in seconds. And that's assuming the email headers were perfectly forged, which I don't know the technical details of, but if they weren't, then that would easily raise suspicion among all those subscribed to the mailing list. (Detectably forged email headers usually raise red flags in email clients.) Every email indicated to be from Leah Rowe is only confirming the original email, and most recently even taking it further by demanding for John Sullivan to resign after flat-out calling him a liar.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
Leah has named the two people she blames for bullying the fired employee as Stephen Mahood and Rubin Rodriguez, accusing the FSF of 'lying' in their public statement: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/libreboot/2016-09/msg00053.html I have my suspicions about these discrimination claims. The evidence is too scarce to speak with any certainty, but RMS's statement and well-established history of support for equality (in gender identity and other areas), combined with the hardships and consequential anger derived from both being a minority and losing one's job, make me suspect that a large part of this is a misunderstanding and/or misinterpretation. Hopefully the situation is resolved as quickly and amicably as possible, with (if necessary) suitable action being taken to ensure the FSF and GNU provide a safe environment for people of all varieties to learn about and contribute to freedom in computing.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
And now the FSF makes an official statement: https://www.fsf.org/news/free-software-foundation-statement
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
Evidence to the contrary: http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/libreboot/2016-09/msg00052.html
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
i thought it was kind of over the top in some respects
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
I'm a trans person too, and you know what makes my blood boil? Well, two parts of this: one, making this into a form of identity politics, and making accusations without providing a shred of evidence. I'm sorry, but even if the accusation is true, this behavior is unacceptable, and it's not helping. All you're doing is making it a liability for any trans person to be employed in the first place, because the employer risks some idiot SJW bringing fire on them when they fire that employer for a legitimate reason. Leah, you can go fuck yourself. This is not an even remotely ethical way to deal with perceived discrimination.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
Someone try to destroy the project cos it is only alternative to free Pc! I can say we must fork it ! Cos is based on coreboot!
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
No evidence given that this actually happened.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
This can be one of two things: 1. Fired for performance and then this person stirs up the pot by saying it was gender related hoping there is a lawsuit. This is very common in corporate America when a black employee is fired. I forgot what its called, so check your PHR/SPHR/SHIRM guides. 2. Fired for being LGBTQ. If so, the FSF should get its non profit status revoked and the organization shut down. The GPL will still exist, but the FSF will be removed from any FLOSS association and history entirely.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
inb4 the trolls I remember the "EU: All your internet is belong to us" thread... *shudders*! I support Libreboot if true but we need to hear all sides of the story before we make conclusion. There is a lot of sexism underlying software industry etc so it is somewhat plausible. But lets hear both sides first of course.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
Both sides of the story have to be equally heard, and as the mate said, accusations without proof are just flatulence. That being said I really don't think anyone with decisional power at the FSF would fire or has fired someone for their sexual orientations.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
Hmm... I really hope this can be sorted out and that this can be reconciled, but I also hope that Leah will change her mind on punishing the whole fsf/gnu because of a few morons. I will still support libreboot probably, but I am disappointment with this news on both sides. I believe both sides of the fence have some wrongs within them. didn't know that Leah was transgender though... regardless though, I must refuse to take a side for now as I don't know the whole story. I hope Leah reads this and understands that there can be better options used to fix problems then just going full blown angry on people. Even if they deserve it. which I am sure there were a few who did deserve it... Let us use our anger to solve the problem not create more problems.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
Indeed, we must be careful not to post such things without clear proof. If there's an accusation, there has to be a proof. This ends my main comment. Some back-story involving me: I once studied in a college were I was persuaded into signing a petition requesting the college to hire again a past worker. The person who handed the petition to me told me that the college fired the worker due to his/her sex orientation. But the petition didn't mention this clearly. I was young at the time, so I signed it, Since the director of that college was also a teacher there, he once mentioned the petition he received to the class in the open, and threatened me for what I did. As the issue unfolded some weeks later, we decided to contact the person fired and ask him/her to meet us with the documents that he/she received when fired (including his/her worker's handbook). During the meeting, we were told that the firing had a clear reason/justification, and we also checked the relevant documentation, only to find out that the director was right. The worker was repeatedly absent, didn't present a reasonable statement (generally, a medical one), and wasn't in his/her vacation. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
yeah I saw those one the mailing list. https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/libreboot/2016-09/msg00036.html https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/libreboot/2016-09/msg00038.html Child like emails No context given. Same here, I don't believe that the FSF did anything wrong. More false alarms than anything else.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
I find it difficult to believe that the FSF fired somebody simply because he or she was transgendered. There must be more to it than that.
[Trisquel-users] Libreboot leaves FSF. Says FSF shouldn't exist anymore.
https://phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item=Libreboot-Not-GNU "I'm declaring here and now to the whole world that Libreboot is no longer part of the GNU project. I do not believe that the FSF or the GNU project deserve to exist." Ouch.
