Re: [TruthTalk] The Humanity of Jesus

2005-08-27 Thread Debbie Sawczak
ions. Am I wrong or foolish to rely on him to do this?   Debbie     - Original Message ----- From: Debbie Sawczak To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2005 7:33 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The Humanity of Jesus >I think the point of

Re: [TruthTalk] The Humanity of Jesus

2005-08-27 Thread Debbie Sawczak
>I think the point of the illustration of asking for bread and receiving > bread instead of a stone is that if parents being evil do not give something > bad to their children when the child asks for something good, then we should > think at least as good about God.  Indeed, God does not giv

Re: [TruthTalk] The Humanity of Jesus

2005-08-27 Thread Debbie Sawczak
Goes without saying, Terry, although it doesn't mean we don't ask for something more specific, and that the two may not coincide. (Gethsemane?) In fact, the below is right in line with what I have said. It is the same as saying, or having the attitude: God, it just may be that what I am aski

Re: [TruthTalk] The Humanity of Jesus

2005-08-27 Thread Debbie Sawczak
You've never prayed for the "wrong" thing and been given something better?   I think the passages involved teach us principles, but we probably shouldn't make such categorical statements about how God answers our prayers. The point of the stones and bread passage is that God is at least as

Re: [TruthTalk] The Humanity of Jesus

2005-08-26 Thread Debbie Sawczak
Even if we ask for stones, he gives bread.   Debbie   - Original Message - From: Bill Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, August 26, 2005 11:30 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The Humanity of Jesus John wrote  >  The "miracles of the dar

Re: [TruthTalk] War or peace

2005-08-25 Thread Debbie Sawczak
Well! it's clear that the Society For People Whose Reflexes Are Not Functioning doesn't need many tax dollars, at least.   Debbie   - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 2:27 PM Subject: RE: [Trut

Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us

2005-08-23 Thread Debbie Sawczak
not make > assumptions, but I don't think that "thinking the best of someone" is > dismissing the idea that they might be under spiritual attack by evil > spirits.  All of us are attacked by evil spirits.  Even Jesus was.  Just > because we recognize demonic a

Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us

2005-08-23 Thread Debbie Sawczak
Same here, on both counts. (Maybe I should think about it more often?)   Debbie   - Original Message - From: Terry Clifton To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2005 8:56 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us Can't of

Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us

2005-08-22 Thread Debbie Sawczak
I am thinking that a one-to-one association between demonic activity and conditions affecting certain parts of the brain is a mistake.   Where these conditions can be adequately explained by observable physical imbalances, malfunctions, damage, or whatever, why would one ascribe them, as a

Re: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us

2005-08-21 Thread Debbie Sawczak
harp under the anointing to give Saul some relief from the torment.   judyt       From: "Debbie Sawczak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   My late father-in-law, a very intelligent man, was bipolar from about his mid-50s and got worse during the time that I knew hi

Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us

2005-08-21 Thread Debbie Sawczak
My late father-in-law, a very intelligent man, was bipolar from about his mid-50s and got worse during the time that I knew him. During bad depressive episodes he was extremely insulting towards everyone, often accusing my husband Jan of being a pimp who secretly hired our children out as pr

Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us

2005-08-20 Thread Debbie Sawczak
OK, David. Thanks. I think we agree that the means of lighting is not the source, that the ultimate source is God, and that we need revelation. That's far enough. The thinking continues!   Debbie     > Yes, I understand that he once was not there as he now was, but in what way > did you fina

Re: [TruthTalk] What is man?

2005-08-20 Thread Debbie Sawczak
The friend who speaks thus is not describing his own view, but Judy's and David's. If anything is laugh-out-loudable (in an affectionate way, of course!), it is that this was not recognized!   Debbie - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org

Re: [TruthTalk] Poetry, Literature, Imagination - Love of Language

2005-08-20 Thread Debbie Sawczak
Self-revelation is always a huge risk.   Debbie     - Original Message - From: "ShieldsFamily" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2005 12:13 PM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Poetry, Literature, Imagination - Love of Language > As for me, I'm wi

Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us

2005-08-20 Thread Debbie Sawczak
verse 21,  new  birth is not am event but a process that culminates in that moment I come to the revelatory light that is Jesus Christ.  John 1:18 makes it clear that Christ is the explanation of God the Father.    -Original Message-From: Debbie Sawczak <debbie@kest.com

Re: [TruthTalk] Poetry, Literature, Imagination - Love of Language

2005-08-20 Thread Debbie Sawczak
Thank you. A rubbie is a homeless alcoholic who will (in view of his pennilessness) take alcohol in any form, including rubbing alcohol. Maybe it's a Canadian term?   Debbie - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Saturday, Augu

Re: [TruthTalk] Poetry, Literature, Imagination - Love of Language

2005-08-20 Thread Debbie Sawczak
ng we do or think is of God and in Christ totally negates putting off the old man and putting on the new because "Hey, it's all in Christ now!!"  Please correct me if I am misunderstanding - because to me this is incredibly blind.  jt   On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 10:52:25 -

Re: [TruthTalk] Poetry, Literature, Imagination - Love of Language

2005-08-20 Thread Debbie Sawczak
Just for the hell of it: this is what I'm going to read this Thursday at my writing group. The person addressed is my son.    Debbie     At the Royal Ontario Museum     We went to the ROM on the third rainy day of the May long weekend, rose from the subway’s dark corners sharp with urine

Re: [TruthTalk] Poetry, Literature, Imagination - Love of Language

2005-08-20 Thread Debbie Sawczak
A but has this aught to do with our lives being hid with Christ in God? Not much. Just everything!    If it doesn't, the gospel is hollow.   Debbie

Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us

2005-08-19 Thread Debbie Sawczak
"Jokerman" is one of my favourite Dylan songs, although I have to admit I haven't paid close attention to all the lyrics. Now I will.   Debbie - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, August 19, 2005 7:19 PM Subje

Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us

2005-08-19 Thread Debbie Sawczak
exegetical surmising s !!!   I am open to a differing opinion and do not offer the above as an argument for why I am right.  Rather, I am merely presenting how it is that I came to my conclusion       thus far.     JD                         

Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us

2005-08-19 Thread Debbie Sawczak
> Debbie wrote:>> To your question about the Light>> --not from deep within myself.> > Interesting answer.  I would like to hear more elaboration on this.  Does > God bring light to you from outside yourself?  Do you hear him audibly, or > what exactly do you mean?   Similar questions about

Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us

2005-08-19 Thread Debbie Sawczak
Did you read my subsequent post on this one? I think I answered as much as I can there. Debbie - Original Message - From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Friday, August 19, 2005 10:17 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us Debbie wrote: Meanwhil

Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us

2005-08-19 Thread Debbie Sawczak
The HS's action I am referring to is "pre-believer", and I clarify the content in the sentences that come after. But if it helps, just leave off that second "who" clause, as I believe the word "convict" may have been a bad choice and is distracting. I have not denied the existence of the consc

Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us

2005-08-19 Thread Debbie Sawczak
 -Original Message-----From: Debbie Sawczak <debbie@kest.com>To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 09:28:28 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us Note to Terry (whose response to the below I accidentally deleted): I agree that A & E

Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us

2005-08-19 Thread Debbie Sawczak
uot; carries with it an implication that we may be called upon either to fix the situation or to make full amends for it. But we cannot and are not--God has taken it upon himself to do both. Debbie - Original Message - From: "Debbie Sawczak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent

Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us

2005-08-19 Thread Debbie Sawczak
requires revelation by the HS. As for "having" the HS: He has always existed and interacted with human beings. He can act on the understanding without indwelling the person as those in Christ are indwelt. Debbie - Original Message ----- From: "Debbie Sawczak" <[EMAIL PROTECTE

Re: [TruthTalk] conscience

2005-08-19 Thread Debbie Sawczak
Judy, since you have addressed me: I sincerely and readily admit my ignorance as well as my helplessness without the Holy Spirit (and the communion of saints). Also, I don't know of anybody whom Lance regards with scorn.   Debbie - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor T

Re: [TruthTalk] "With it" Restoration preaching

2005-08-18 Thread Debbie Sawczak
I thought it was a pretty clear and faithful summary (apart from the tongues, which I personally hadn't noticed you making an issue of).   Debbie   - Original Message - From: David Miller To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2005 3:15 PM

Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us

2005-08-18 Thread Debbie Sawczak
You seem to me to be moving gradually further from your original position on the condition in which we start out in life, but I may just have misunderstood.   To your question about the Light--not from deep within myself.   I was considering the verse from Proverbs quite thoroughly, in fact,

Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us

2005-08-18 Thread Debbie Sawczak
I see; thanks for spelling that out. I have some uncertainty, especially given our different understandings of "flesh", and the fact that I've never encountered (3) before in an articulation of the fall. I think our views would overlap. I'll continue thinking about this. Meanwhile you can put me

Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us

2005-08-18 Thread Debbie Sawczak
what do you rely, if not the conscience. What part of you "knows" the difference between right and wrong? iz -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Debbie Sawczak Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2005 6:40 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.or

Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us

2005-08-18 Thread Debbie Sawczak
IL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Debbie Sawczak Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 3:56 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us Jonathan said: grasping for autonomy I think this is the nub. We could add that instead of seeking a

Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us

2005-08-18 Thread Debbie Sawczak
Izzy, you misunderstand entirely. In that sentence I wasn't referring to the problem with the human race. I meant the problem, if any, that David had with my statement about the difference between unfallen humanity and restored humanity.   Debbie - Original Message - From: Sh

Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us

2005-08-17 Thread Debbie Sawczak
Ditto.   Debbie - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 9:38 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us Someone like TF Torrance writing about 'The Mediation of Chris

Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us

2005-08-17 Thread Debbie Sawczak
I'm not sure where the problem lies. Yes, what Christ accomplished deals with all the negatives, but goes beyond that, and I thought you said as much yourself in an earlier post (which I can't take the time to find right now; you used our future judging of angels as an example--remember?). F

Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us

2005-08-17 Thread Debbie Sawczak
I don't want to make this all-important, David, but I do want to respond and make sure I haven't misunderstood you.   You say that we are not born oriented towards God, and that when you were a child your spirit had no inclination towards God until you were prodded by the Holy Spirit. Do yo

Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us

2005-08-17 Thread Debbie Sawczak
Jonathan said: grasping for autonomy I think this is the nub. We could add that instead of seeking autonomy we might also willingly give ourselves over to some other god or power rather than the Father. Trying to identify and box in sinful acts misses the point about sin. I think it also ba

Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us

2005-08-17 Thread Debbie Sawczak
Our conscience can by no means be relied upon to reveal good and evil. If it could, we would all have identical consciences, but conscience varies from person to person and from society to society in space and time. It is a social construct. By it we know only that we do or do not measure up

Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us

2005-08-17 Thread Debbie Sawczak
  Comments, please.   JD   -----Original Message-From: Debbie Sawczak <debbie@kest.com>To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 07:31:16 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us Perhaps it is time I stuck my neck out and said

Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us

2005-08-17 Thread Debbie Sawczak
Perhaps it is time I stuck my neck out and said something.   I think Judy is closer to the truth on this one than either David or JD, at least in terms of the severity of the human condition. We are all born with the "disease" and therefore manifest its symptoms, and it infects all aspects

Re: [TruthTalk] The Humanity of Jesus

2005-08-11 Thread Debbie Sawczak
David wrote: The heart is not the flesh, but rather it is the spirit, the center of man. Jesus was a pure man, the Son of God, in the form of sinful flesh, in mortal form, that he might conquer sin and the lust of the flesh, the pride of life, and all that has caused men to depart from the comma

Re: [TruthTalk] The Humanity of Jesus

2005-08-11 Thread Debbie Sawczak
Well, as a Canajan I particularly liked that you got the beavers and loons in there!   Debbie     - Original Message - From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 9:28 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The Humanity of Jesus > D

Re: [TruthTalk] The Humanity of Jesus

2005-08-10 Thread Debbie Sawczak
The first paragraph below rings like chapters in the book of Job. (That's a good thing! --and probably your intent.)   Debbie     - Original Message - From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 10:20 PM Subject: Re: [Tr

Re: [TruthTalk] The Humanity of Jesus

2005-08-10 Thread Debbie Sawczak
Judy, your claim is completely untrue. You have always insisted on the text of the Bible only, and what's more, the text of the KJV only, as an authoritative source, but now when you are scrambling in an argument, you resort to the same kinds of sources the rest of us use. It is ludicrous to

Re: [TruthTalk] The Humanity of Jesus

2005-08-09 Thread Debbie Sawczak
I argue that his uniqueness > stems from his spirit, his identity as the Son of God.  The word "likeness" > in Romans 8:3 is used, not to convey that Jesus had an imitation body or a > counterfeit human flesh, but rather to point to the similarity or likeness > of his body to sinful flesh. 

Re: [TruthTalk] Spirit: Message to DM

2005-08-06 Thread Debbie Sawczak
David, if that's what you meant by shrinking back to your cave, I echo Izzy. But if you meant just taking a breather from that specific thread--no problem.   Debbie - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Saturday, August 06, 200

Re: [TruthTalk] Spirit

2005-08-05 Thread Debbie Sawczak
My inclination is to be skeptical of the innocence of your intentions. (When you say things like "everybody has a threshold for the amount of details they can abstractly hold in their mind" and "some people can think in 3 or 4 dimensions while others are taxing their brains to think in 2 di

Re: [TruthTalk] Spirit

2005-08-05 Thread Debbie Sawczak
Please, David, stop patronizing me in this ridiculous fashion. Your condescension only serves as a temptation to contempt. The problem has nothing to do with the amount of detail I can hold in my mind; if anything, it is the reverse. But the real issue for me has never been mere quantity of

Re: [TruthTalk] TruthTalk: Re true religion

2005-08-05 Thread Debbie Sawczak
If you will forgive me for sounding the same note every time: these are not and cannot be two separate things. It is only by an encounter with Christ, in which he "takes us in hand" and reveals to us who he is by his Spirit, that we can even recognize and know him as Saviour. Just this recog

Re: [TruthTalk] Spirit

2005-08-05 Thread Debbie Sawczak
I have to admit that I have spent way too much time responding to this.  It won't hurt my feelings if we stop here.  Or, perhaps we could just discuss the primary, most important points one at a time.  I have many unread messages and it does not look like I will get caught up on reading Trut

Re: [TruthTalk] Spirit

2005-08-04 Thread Debbie Sawczak
A caveat, David: in order to really test a viewpoint I have to get inside it. That sounds the same as a full endorsement. If I sound cocky at times while doing this, it's not because I am not aware that I am "reaching". But unless I "reach" for something I never can really grasp it, and will

Re: [TruthTalk] Spirit

2005-08-03 Thread Debbie Sawczak
Debbie in blue.   - Original Message - From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 4:11 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spirit > Debbie wrote:>> 1) Yes, I agree without hesitation that there>> is such a thing as spirit. Ther

Re: [TruthTalk] Spirit

2005-08-03 Thread Debbie Sawczak
Well, he did some (Emmaus road comes to mind, among other passages), but if he didn't, it certainly wasn't because most people understood him easily without it. However, sometimes no amount of explanation is worthwhile, because what is blocking our understanding is unwillingness.   Debbie 

Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death

2005-08-02 Thread Debbie Sawczak
unconscious or subconscious mind or something like that to which Augustine, Calvin and the enlightenment have heavy input?  What proof do you have for this?  jt   On Tue, 2 Aug 2005 19:11:55 -0400 "Debbie Sawczak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: By "not big", do you

Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death

2005-08-02 Thread Debbie Sawczak
By "not big", do you mean their names were not much mentioned, and they weren't much quoted? That has little to do with it. The biggest influences are quite often not known by name and not consciously recognized.   Debbie - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: Truth

Re: [TruthTalk] Theology from a Heretic

2005-08-01 Thread Debbie Sawczak
Well, it depends which way you're facing, eh.   Debbie - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 2:30 PM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Theology from a Heretic Matt 25:31When the Son of man sh

Re: [TruthTalk] Spirit

2005-08-01 Thread Debbie Sawczak
Yes, unfamiliar things require more explanation.   Debbie - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 1:59 PM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spirit Nice thoughtful reply, Debbie.  I look forward to DM

Re: [TruthTalk] Spirit

2005-08-01 Thread Debbie Sawczak
David: here is a response--and maybe a bulkier one than you would've liked, sorry!--to your three questions to me about spirit. For anyone not into the topic: feel free to ignore.   1) Yes, I agree without hesitation that there is such a thing as spirit. There are beings who are not material.

Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14

2005-07-30 Thread Debbie Sawczak
However, speaking of T-shirts not saying what you expect them to say: last summer I saw someone in a parking lot whose T-shirt read, in large black caps, PERPETUAL CONJECTURE. I thought that was a pretty intriguing thing to put on a T-shirt and I also liked the sound of the words (as in, the

Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death

2005-07-30 Thread Debbie Sawczak
Yes; after all, that IS a sure sign of the end of the world!! (Or at least Judy's world.)   Debbie - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 7:02 PM Subject: Re: [T

Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14

2005-07-30 Thread Debbie Sawczak
> Debbie wrote:>> Like good song lyrics or a poem.>> You can't be lazy.> DM wrote: What about a bad song or poem, where you take the time to try and > understand, but then you are upset with the meaning you uncovered.>  A bad song or poem is one whose meaning upsets you??   But in any case,

Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death

2005-07-30 Thread Debbie Sawczak
I can't say I've thought about it with any thoroughness before (which is why I didn't want to commit myself to an endorsement of that content of your post). I will do some thinking about it now, though, and may return to it as per your request. My answer to your first question will obviously con

Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14

2005-07-30 Thread Debbie Sawczak
Like good song lyrics or a poem. You can't be lazy.   Debbie - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 2:55 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 Are we all mad because Profes

Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death

2005-07-29 Thread Debbie Sawczak
David, I appreciate the substance and tone of this post you wrote to Judy (apart from whether or not I happen to have the same opinion about spiritual inheritance). I wanted to say something similar but you did so better than I would have. The reality that we are powerfully influenced by "am

Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death

2005-07-29 Thread Debbie Sawczak
Izzy responds: If you were born "from below" the first time, and "born from above" the second time, wasn't the second time born "again"?   Yes. However, "from above" adds specific content that is not contained in "again", and it is that content which may be the focus of the passage.   Debbie

Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death

2005-07-29 Thread Debbie Sawczak
Izzy responds: So you really don't object, on the grounds of being a nonbiblical term,  if we use the term "spiritual death" Bill?   I think you are a bit confused, Izzy. It is not the term (since it has long ago been shown here that objection to a "nonbiblical term" is inherently absurd)

Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus of the Bible

2005-07-09 Thread Debbie Sawczak
lor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2005 1:12 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus of the Bible     On Sat, 9 Jul 2005 12:54:04 -0400 "Debbie Sawczak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Judy, I wi

Re: [TruthTalk] Apologetic for the eternal sonship of Christ

2005-07-09 Thread Debbie Sawczak
Before I leave though: Bill and David, would you kindly postpone the discussion suggested below? I don't want to miss it!   Debbie   Bill wrote: I would like to have a discussion sometime (although it'll have to wait awhile) about epistemological humility as it relates to the study

Re: [TruthTalk] off for a while

2005-07-09 Thread Debbie Sawczak
Folks, we are going on a camping vacation for two weeks and the next couple of days will be spent preparing, as well as trying to pull off a birthday party for our second son. So I am unsubscribing for now, but want to go on record as saying that I have enjoyed this third stint on TT, and I woul

Re: [TruthTalk] All believers are ONE IN CHRIST

2005-07-09 Thread Debbie Sawczak
> Debbie wrote:>> Yes, there are Catholics who think this way.> > And there are Catholics who practice birth control, abortion, curse like a > sailor, fornicate, commit adultery, murder for the right cause, etc. etc. > Finding Catholics who think this way really does not say anything.   All

Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus of the Bible

2005-07-09 Thread Debbie Sawczak
Judy, I will point out that this is typical of your tendency to misread or distort. I did not say that Christ cannot live without us, and I don't think you truly believe that I did.   In another post today, you wrote: Any doctrine that does not lead ppl professing Christ into godliness and h

Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus of the Bible

2005-07-09 Thread Debbie Sawczak
> Your analogy is very good for pointing out the weakness of the human flesh, > but there are some things to consider before we accept whether or not it is > applicable to our ability to walk in love.  First, the issue of playing the > sonata deals not with just playing one note, but with th

Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus of the Bible

2005-07-08 Thread Debbie Sawczak
2005 19:00:44 -0500 Terry Clifton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Debbie Sawczak wrote: . We are the weak link in the chain. To the extent we are able to live out our reconciliation to God at all, it is because of Christ in us. But it is not Chr

Re: [TruthTalk] All believers are ONE IN CHRIST

2005-07-08 Thread Debbie Sawczak
"Debbie Sawczak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: No, I don't think I said it effects faith. I mean that it doesn't make faith unnecessary.   Debbie - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.inngl

Re: [TruthTalk] All believers are ONE IN CHRIST

2005-07-08 Thread Debbie Sawczak
are ONE IN CHRIST you're saying that (e.g) transubstantiation effects faith--what controls faith?   On Fri, 8 Jul 2005 20:05:35 -0400 "Debbie Sawczak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: I see how it can be regarded as an aid to reason, although (as with some ot

Re: [TruthTalk] All believers are ONE IN CHRIST

2005-07-08 Thread Debbie Sawczak
him     On Fri, 8 Jul 2005 19:18:40 -0400 "Debbie Sawczak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: I don't know. But if I ever convert to Catholicism, I will so think.   Debbie - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTE

Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus of the Bible

2005-07-08 Thread Debbie Sawczak
(?)   - Original Message - From: Debbie Sawczak To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 6:38 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus of the Bible > Also, if you believe that we can sometimes love, why would you not believe > that we can always love

Re: [TruthTalk] All believers are ONE IN CHRIST

2005-07-08 Thread Debbie Sawczak
many other churches.    Debbie   - Original Message - From: Debbie Sawczak To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 7:18 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] All believers are ONE IN CHRIST I don't know. But if I ever convert to Catholicism, I

Re: [TruthTalk] All believers are ONE IN CHRIST

2005-07-08 Thread Debbie Sawczak
there Catholics who think this way--transubstantiation's not an absolute?   On Fri, 8 Jul 2005 18:39:30 -0400 "Debbie Sawczak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: ..whether or not you believe in transubstantiation as some conceive of it, the point this kind of

Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus of the Bible

2005-07-08 Thread Debbie Sawczak
> Also, if you believe that we can sometimes love, why would you not believe > that we can always love? OK, just taking this sometimes --> always thing on its own: I see what you mean about people saying "theoretically". Because of course, at any given moment we could love. Sure. It is ridi

Re: [TruthTalk] All believers are ONE IN CHRIST

2005-07-07 Thread Debbie Sawczak
HRIST     On Thu, 7 Jul 2005 11:34:13 -0400 "Debbie Sawczak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Also, Izzy, there are traditions beyond whether you use a guitar or an organ or whether the announcements come before or after the offering or how many times you have

Re: [TruthTalk] All believers are ONE IN CHRIST

2005-07-07 Thread Debbie Sawczak
That was the very first thing I thought of, too! Debbie - Original Message - From: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 5:08 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] All believers are ONE IN CHRIST Ahh shades of Monty Python. (dead bird sketch - one of their be

Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus of the Bible

2005-07-07 Thread Debbie Sawczak
But for now, David, just the following clarification:   Debbie wrote:>> The practical upshot of this is not that we should>> have no confidence at all as interpreters,> David responded: This would be a BAD thing, not a good thing.   I'm wondering if you missed the "not" [in red] above. I a

Re: [TruthTalk] All believers are ONE IN CHRIST

2005-07-07 Thread Debbie Sawczak
ospel which they actually grasp and celebrate and practise better than other Christians. And most evangelicals (including those evangelicals who have been Catholics themselves), misunderstand many Catholic teachings and traditions.   Care to offer specific examples?Debbie Sawczak &l

Re: [TruthTalk] All believers are ONE IN CHRIST

2005-07-07 Thread Debbie Sawczak
ssage - From: Kevin Deegan To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 12:48 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] All believers are ONE IN CHRIST How does this spirit manifest itself? How can I know that it is the Spirit of God?Debbie Sawczak <[EMAIL P

Re: [TruthTalk] perfection

2005-07-07 Thread Debbie Sawczak
[Note thread title change, a bit late.]   Ditto. For David: I am in process of preparing a response to yours on the topic (which introduced a new thought or two for me, so I am taking my time), but I may not need to if you and Christine are saying the same thing.   Debbie     - Original

Re: [TruthTalk] All believers are ONE IN CHRIST

2005-07-07 Thread Debbie Sawczak
Well, for one thing, he is present in individual Catholic believers.   Debbie - Original Message - From: Kevin Deegan To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 7:57 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] All believers are ONE IN CHRIST Can you

Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus of the Bible

2005-07-07 Thread Debbie Sawczak
Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes!   Debbie - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 7:51 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus of the Bible   And what is the response of many a believer to the readi

Re: [TruthTalk] All believers are ONE IN CHRIST

2005-07-07 Thread Debbie Sawczak
Also, Izzy, there are traditions beyond whether you use a guitar or an organ or whether the announcements come before or after the offering or how many times you have communion. There are also traditions like always supporting a particular political party or ideology, using or avoiding a par

Re: [TruthTalk] All believers are ONE IN CHRIST

2005-07-06 Thread Debbie Sawczak
Wait. I am taking that back until I can articulate properly what it means. I really should put my hand over my mouth now. Good night.   Debbie - Original Message - From: Debbie Sawczak To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 12:23 AM

Re: [TruthTalk] All believers are ONE IN CHRIST

2005-07-06 Thread Debbie Sawczak
Exactly. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 6:33 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] All believers are ONE IN CHRIST Since forever.     Jd  -Original Message-From: Kevin

Re: [TruthTalk] Re:Dualism - splitting apart that which ought not be split

2005-07-06 Thread Debbie Sawczak
I have to come back to this, Judy. Your denial of the relevance of the below is itself a symptom of (another) dualism. Reality is only one ballpark. The lens through which we see tends to affect our vision of everything, the way we think about everything. We can be alerted to the lens throug

Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus of the Bible

2005-07-06 Thread Debbie Sawczak
Blue.   - Original Message - From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 6:52 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus of the Bible > David Miller wrote:>>> When a person says that they will always sin,>>> this is the same thing

Re: [TruthTalk] Apologetic for the eternal sonship of Christ

2005-07-06 Thread Debbie Sawczak
--- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Debbie Sawczak Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 4:44 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Apologetic for the eternal sonship of Christ BTW, Thank you David and Izzy for your kind remarks re writing. And David, in th

Re: [TruthTalk] Apologetic for the eternal sonship of Christ

2005-07-06 Thread Debbie Sawczak
BTW, Thank you David and Izzy for your kind remarks re writing. And David, in the unlikely event I go to Florida, I would be delighted to do lunch. Debbie -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians

Re: [TruthTalk] Apologetic for the eternal sonship of Christ

2005-07-06 Thread Debbie Sawczak
David writes: If she has the Holy Spirit within, she will probably be ok.    I 'spect so, although she scares me sometimes by how vigorously she seems to resist the idea of 100% grace, as below. Notice I say "seems". I realize it may be my perspective. But she sounds exactly like some group

Re: [TruthTalk] Apologetic for the eternal sonship of Christ

2005-07-06 Thread Debbie Sawczak
Yes, I certainly do. In fact, you may have noticed the parenthesis I included towards the end of the post occasioning this little dialogue: "let alone whether it has been preceded by any more careful attention to Scripture or to the voice of the Spirit". I don't think the "dynamics" for Calv

Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus of the Bible

2005-07-06 Thread Debbie Sawczak
David writes: When a person says that they will always sin, this is the same thing as saying that they will always fail to love their brother. Hang on. Surely you don't hear anybody saying we will always sin, or always fail to love. The claim is that we will not do all the loving that we ought

Re: [TruthTalk] All believers are ONE IN CHRIST

2005-07-06 Thread Debbie Sawczak
and idolatry along with a few alien doctrines? It's a whole lot more than semantics Debbie - it's the reality behind the words.  Remember?  jt   On Wed, 6 Jul 2005 16:24:41 -0400 "Debbie Sawczak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: MAN you guys get distracted by y

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