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In concluding this thread, I want to mention that this is a classic anomaly. I've attempted to make the case that the world is, the way that it is, because it has a super natural component, which guides it. Even more anomalous are the writings of the Prophets which spell this scenario out in exact detail. In this scenario,Israel is the center of the world. As prophecized, it has become the focus of the entire World's attention. Edmund Storms wrote: thomas malloy wrote: Edmund Storms wrote: thomas malloy wrote: The return of the Jews, the conquest of the land, it's subsequent prosperity, the hatred of the Arabs, their refusal to get over the indignity of the loss of that part of their conquered land, the Liberals support of Islam. IMHO, It's all supernatural. BTW, comprise will get no where with the Islamists, it's counterproductive. If this is the case Thomas, Israel better have God on its side because otherwise the country is doomed. This conclusion is obvious to any rational person, not just liberals. Here is a small country that is not self sufficient without outside aid and is Your comments just tickle me Ed, this is exactly the scenario that the prophecies said would occur. Good, this is the spirit we need to continue a discussion. Of course, a person explaining such a conflict even in the past would predict that some people would try to find a reasonable solution. \ IMHO, there is no reasonable solution to a civilizational conflict. There is a night and day difference between a British Common Law based legal system, which is based on the Holy Torah, and a Sharia based system, which is based on the Qu' ran and the Hadith. If you can't see the difference between them, you need new glasses. But, this is not your point. I assume you believe this conflict was foretold in the Bible and that it will end badly, after which Christ will return and set things right again. Is this your belief? Badly is a subjective word. IMHO, the only way to make the world truly better involves the expiation of sin. There have been various Utopian communities, they were either based on the Bible, or they soon went into sexual immorality and or totalitarianism. I believe this is a case of a self fulfilling prophecy that various people worked to bring about in modern times. . If you are right, we should not have to wait long. If I'm right this began with a rebellion in heaven and continued with the lie that the serpent told Eve in the Garden. As far as it being a self fulling prophecy, I'm not G-d, nor is all of humanity. Israel, the weather, and the earthquakes are the prophecized labor pains --- Get FREE High Speed Internet from USFamily.Net! -- http://www.usfamily.net/mkt-freepromo.html ---
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Some people in this forum may be surprised that I have not contributed to this discussion. So, here I am to make a few points. 1. This is a valid discussion, since the religious/political events of the next 20 years will affect us all more seriously than the success or failure of cold fusion. 2. Jews have no regard for the authority that Jesus claims as the Son of God. They do not accept the New Testament of the Bible as scripture. 3. Of the three major religions in this discussion: Muslims are instructed to destroy their enemies (which include infidels). Christians are instructed to love their enemies (A very difficult thing for most of us to do) Jews are instructed that God will destroy their enemies. 4. The nation of Israel was destroyed by the Romans over 1900 years ago, but Bible talks of the existence of Israel during the end times. For centuries this was thought to be impossible, but in 1948 the nation came back to life! Is this a coincidence or divine intervention? The nation's survival over the past 60 years may likewise be miraculous. Is it irony or God's judgment that the Hebrew language survived to be the official language of Israel while the language of the empire that conquered them is extinct as a conversational language? Enough for now; I hate typing. Jeff No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.3.0/1498 - Release Date: 6/11/2008 7:13 PM
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Howdy Jeff, No problem with you bellying up to the bar on this topic , provided you got big enough elbows. Your point makes a case of effect until you factor in China and the Pacific Rim where China is the master. Our religions and politics represent near zero in the great game.. it is our consumer market that keeps us alive, Relying on interpretations of the bible has sure caused lotsa people grief. The book of Revelation is revealing in what it don't say which tells you it ain't gonna say until it is time to say and that ain't yet.. maybe tomorrow. In short.. the Texas version is hide and watch. Your recognition of Israel's restoration in 1948 as the physical Israel may be valid. History and Satan has a strange way of playing tricks on the unsuspecting as ole Willlie Shakepeare observed watching the antics of the king. As for spiritual Israel.. that's a one on one thing. Richard Jeff Fink wrote, 1. This is a valid discussion, since the religious/political events of the next 20 years will affect us all more seriously than the success or failure of cold fusion but in 1948 the nation came back to life!
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On 12/6/2008 6:26 AM, Jeff Fink wrote: 3. Of the three major religions in this discussion: Muslims are instructed to destroy their enemies (which include infidels). Christians are instructed to love their enemies (A very difficult thing for most of us to do) Jews are instructed that God will destroy their enemies. and all three loves themselves to no end. ;-) Harry
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thomas malloy wrote: Edmund Storms wrote: thomas malloy wrote: The return of the Jews, the conquest of the land, it's subsequent prosperity, the hatred of the Arabs, their refusal to get over the indignity of the loss of that part of their conquered land, the Liberals support of Islam. IMHO, It's all supernatural. BTW, comprise will get no where with the Islamists, it's counterproductive. If this is the case Thomas, Israel better have God on its side because otherwise the country is doomed. This conclusion is obvious to any rational person, not just liberals. Here is a small country that is not self sufficient without outside aid and is Your comments just tickle me Ed, this is exactly the scenario that the prophecies said would occur. Good, this is the spirit we need to continue a discussion. Of course, a person explaining such a conflict even in the past would predict that some people would try to find a reasonable solution. But, this is not your point. I assume you believe this conflict was foretold in the Bible and that it will end badly, after which Christ will return and set things right again. Is this your belief? I believe this is a case of a self fulfilling prophecy that various people worked to bring about in modern times. I agree it will end badly, but I don't believe it will result in any supernatural events that will reward Christians. Instead, it will result in death and destruction for a lot of people, just as have many other decisions based on religious belief. The human race will repair the damage and stumble on as usual. We will just have to wait and see which view is correct. If you are right, we should not have to wait long. Ed --- Get FREE High Speed Internet from USFamily.Net! -- http://www.usfamily.net/mkt-freepromo.html ---
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I don't know why anybody in the US cares about Israel. It is just another Middle Eastern shithole. If the jews and the arabs want to kill each other, that's fine by me, as long as my tax dollars don't go to prop them up. As long as none of them screw up our oil supply - and the arabs won't, since selling us oil is their sole income, and Israel should know better, since we would, I hope, turn Tel Aviv into a radioactive glass pile if they threatened to nuke the oil fields unless we continued to support them - then I say: let them kill each other.
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I don't know all the facts so I must go by the funny papers, virtual TV and the bible. Gaza had greenhouses producing food. Gaza was ceded to Hezbubba by Israel. Hezbubba destroyed the greenhouses which produced the food and provided jobs, effectively hurting nobody but themselves.They are now on welfare. The history of those greenhouses and for that matter, the nearby university and hospital also built by the Jews may not be verifiable facts unless you have your eyes open.. but.. for sure.. the amazing absence of Hezbubba created food production, hospitals, universities and job creating ( except for hired gunslingers) makes for some interesting conjecture. Ole DeCartes took a look around the town way back when. He didn't see much but desert and a few sheep but he did allow that IF the bible were true and the place turned back into a garden.. he figured people would believe in God. The poor dumb guy just didn't understand human nature. Richard Ed Storms wrote, We can differ about what the facts mean, but I don't understand why you can't acknowledge easily verifiable facts. Unfortunately, your reaction is not uncommon and it is the reason why rational decisions are not being made.
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Thomas sez: Edmund Storms wrote: thomas malloy wrote: The return of the Jews, the conquest of the land, it's subsequent prosperity, the hatred of the Arabs, their refusal to get over the indignity of the loss of that part of their conquered land, the Liberals support of Islam. IMHO, It's all supernatural. BTW, comprise will get no where with the Islamists, it's counterproductive. If this is the case Thomas, Israel better have God on its side because otherwise the country is doomed. This conclusion is obvious to any rational person, not just liberals. Here is a small country that is not self sufficient without outside aid and is Your comments just tickle me Ed, this is exactly the scenario that the prophecies said would occur. It might be wise to prepare for the possibility of a different outcome, one that does not involve Divine Calvary coming to the rescue. G_d never rewarded me with a Mercedes-Benz, even though all my friends have one, and I must makes amends. I think I'll heed the advice of several participants and step out for some fresh air. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
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On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 8:50 AM, OrionWorks [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: G_d never rewarded me with a Mercedes-Benz, even though all my friends have one, and I must makes amends. If Adolf had known the Jews were going to be MB's best customers, he might have rethought the holocaust. Terry
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On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 8:50 AM, OrionWorks [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think I'll heed the advice of several participants and step out for some fresh air. God was missing for six days. Eventually, Michael, the archangel, found him, resting on the seventh day. He inquired, Where have you been? God smiled deeply and proudly pointed downwards through the clouds, Look, Michael. Look what I've made. Archangel Michael looked puzzled, and said, What is it? It's a planet, replied God, and I've put Life on it. I'm going to call it Earth and it's going to be a place to test Balance. Balance? inquired Michael, I'm still confused. God explained, pointing to different parts of earth. For example, northern Europe will be a place of great opportunity and wealth, while southern Europe is going to be poor. Over here I've placed a continent of white people, and over there is a continent of black people. Balance in all things. God continued pointing to different countries. This one will be extremely hot, while this one will be very cold and covered in ice. The Archangel, impressed by God's work, then pointed to a land area and said, What's that one? That's Washington State, the most glorious place on earth. There are beautiful mountains, rivers and streams, lakes, forests, hills, and plains. The people from Washington State are going to be handsome, modest, intelligent, and humorous, and they are going to travel the world. They will be extremely sociable, hardworking, high achieving, and they will be known throughout the world as diplomats, carriers of peace, and producers of software. Michael gasped in wonder and admiration, but then asked, But what about balance, God? You said there would be balance. God smiled as he said: There is another Washington. Wait till you see the idiots I put there. Terry
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On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 8:50 AM, OrionWorks [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It might be wise to prepare for the possibility of a different outcome, one that does not involve Divine Calvary coming to the rescue. Sayings of a Jewish Buddhist If there is no self, whose arthritis is this? Be here now. Be someplace else later. Is that so complicated? Drink tea and nourish life; with the first sip, joy; with the second sip, satisfaction; with the third sip, peace; with the fourth, a Danish. Wherever you go, there you are. Your luggage is another story. Accept misfortune as a blessing. Do not wish for perfect health, or a life without problems. What would you talk about? The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single Oy. There is no escaping karma. In a previous life, you never called, you never wrote, you never visited. And whose fault was that? Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis. The Tao does not speak. The Tao does not blame. The Tao does not take sides. The Tao has no expectations. The Tao demands nothing of others. The Tao is not Jewish. Breathe in. Breathe out. Breathe in. Breathe out. Forget this and attaining Enlightenment will be the least of your problems. Let your mind be as a floating cloud. Let your stillness be as a wooded glen. And sit up straight. You'll never meet the Buddha with such rounded shoulders. Deep inside you are ten thousand flowers. Each flower blossoms ten thousand times. Each blossom has ten thousand petals. You might want to see a specialist. Be aware of your body. Be aware of your perceptions. Keep in mind that not every physical sensation is a symptom of a terminal illness. The Torah says, Love your neighbor as yourself. The Buddha says, There is no self. So, maybe we're off the hook. Terry
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Great story Terry, just what we need to lower the tension. If we need more proof that God is nothing but trouble, read the attached article. http://www.antiwar.com/avnery/?articleid=12963 Ed Terry Blanton wrote: On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 8:50 AM, OrionWorks [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think I'll heed the advice of several participants and step out for some fresh air. God was missing for six days. Eventually, Michael, the archangel, found him, resting on the seventh day. He inquired, Where have you been? God smiled deeply and proudly pointed downwards through the clouds, Look, Michael. Look what I've made. Archangel Michael looked puzzled, and said, What is it? It's a planet, replied God, and I've put Life on it. I'm going to call it Earth and it's going to be a place to test Balance. Balance? inquired Michael, I'm still confused. God explained, pointing to different parts of earth. For example, northern Europe will be a place of great opportunity and wealth, while southern Europe is going to be poor. Over here I've placed a continent of white people, and over there is a continent of black people. Balance in all things. God continued pointing to different countries. This one will be extremely hot, while this one will be very cold and covered in ice. The Archangel, impressed by God's work, then pointed to a land area and said, What's that one? That's Washington State, the most glorious place on earth. There are beautiful mountains, rivers and streams, lakes, forests, hills, and plains. The people from Washington State are going to be handsome, modest, intelligent, and humorous, and they are going to travel the world. They will be extremely sociable, hardworking, high achieving, and they will be known throughout the world as diplomats, carriers of peace, and producers of software. Michael gasped in wonder and admiration, but then asked, But what about balance, God? You said there would be balance. God smiled as he said: There is another Washington. Wait till you see the idiots I put there. Terry
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On 11/6/2008 1:49 AM, Edmund Storms wrote: thomas malloy wrote: Edmund Storms wrote: thomas malloy wrote: The return of the Jews, the conquest of the land, it's subsequent prosperity, the hatred of the Arabs, their refusal to get over the indignity of the loss of that part of their conquered land, the Liberals support of Islam. IMHO, It's all supernatural. BTW, comprise will get no where with the Islamists, it's counterproductive. If this is the case Thomas, Israel better have God on its side because otherwise the country is doomed. This conclusion is obvious to any rational person, not just liberals. Here is a small country that is not self sufficient without outside aid and is Your comments just tickle me Ed, this is exactly the scenario that the prophecies said would occur. Good, this is the spirit we need to continue a discussion. Of course, a person explaining such a conflict even in the past would predict that some people would try to find a reasonable solution. But, this is not your point. I assume you believe this conflict was foretold in the Bible and that it will end badly, after which Christ will return and set things right again. Is this your belief? I believe this is a case of a self fulfilling prophecy that various people worked to bring about in modern times. I agree it will end badly, but I don't believe it will result in any supernatural events that will reward Christians. Instead, it will result in death and destruction for a lot of people, just as have many other decisions based on religious belief. The human race will repair the damage and stumble on as usual. We will just have to wait and see which view is correct. If you are right, we should not have to wait long. Ed The book of revelations is like a very long horoscope. It is sufficiently ambiguous and vague that almost any sequence of events could be interpreted as proving the prophecy. Harry
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On 11/6/2008 1:49 AM, Edmund Storms wrote: thomas malloy wrote: Edmund Storms wrote: thomas malloy wrote: The return of the Jews, the conquest of the land, it's subsequent prosperity, the hatred of the Arabs, their refusal to get over the indignity of the loss of that part of their conquered land, the Liberals support of Islam. IMHO, It's all supernatural. BTW, comprise will get no where with the Islamists, it's counterproductive. If this is the case Thomas, Israel better have God on its side because otherwise the country is doomed. This conclusion is obvious to any rational person, not just liberals. Here is a small country that is not self sufficient without outside aid and is Your comments just tickle me Ed, this is exactly the scenario that the prophecies said would occur. Good, this is the spirit we need to continue a discussion. Of course, a person explaining such a conflict even in the past would predict that some people would try to find a reasonable solution. But, this is not your point. I assume you believe this conflict was foretold in the Bible and that it will end badly, after which Christ will return and set things right again. Is this your belief? I believe this is a case of a self fulfilling prophecy that various people worked to bring about in modern times. I agree it will end badly, but I don't believe it will result in any supernatural events that will reward Christians. I don't think the bible says only Christians will be rewarded. Harry
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On 10/6/2008 9:59 PM, R C Macaulay wrote: Howdy Vorts, Seems this thread has taken on a life of it's own. Time to take the mirror down from behind the bar before sumbuddy starts preaching a sermon and tosses a whiskey bottle. The boys at the Dime Box saloon practice peaceful co-existence and .. the rule is to be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. Which means.. be wise enough to stomp a snake flat and pull his fangs without a discussion and it makes a snake plum peaceful as a dove. Problem is that when Israel does this it's called cruelty to animals. Richard It is cruel. Declawing a cat is cruel. Better to send in the Bad Ass Texas Rabbits: www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8mqVpa82jU Harry
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Harry Veeder wrote: On 11/6/2008 1:49 AM, Edmund Storms wrote: thomas malloy wrote: Edmund Storms wrote: thomas malloy wrote: The return of the Jews, the conquest of the land, it's subsequent prosperity, the hatred of the Arabs, their refusal to get over the indignity of the loss of that part of their conquered land, the Liberals support of Islam. IMHO, It's all supernatural. BTW, comprise will get no where with the Islamists, it's counterproductive. If this is the case Thomas, Israel better have God on its side because otherwise the country is doomed. This conclusion is obvious to any rational person, not just liberals. Here is a small country that is not self sufficient without outside aid and is Your comments just tickle me Ed, this is exactly the scenario that the prophecies said would occur. Good, this is the spirit we need to continue a discussion. Of course, a person explaining such a conflict even in the past would predict that some people would try to find a reasonable solution. But, this is not your point. I assume you believe this conflict was foretold in the Bible and that it will end badly, after which Christ will return and set things right again. Is this your belief? I believe this is a case of a self fulfilling prophecy that various people worked to bring about in modern times. I agree it will end badly, but I don't believe it will result in any supernatural events that will reward Christians. I don't think the bible says only Christians will be rewarded. According to Christian interpretation, only people who are Christians or who have converted will be saved. Of course, good reasons can be suggested not to know what the Bible means on many levels. As a result, the book has been used to support the self-interest of the various churches, which adds to the confusion. Fortunately, I believe we are not going to be saved based on being Christian or having any faith-based belief. We are saved by our actions and awareness. Of course, that leaves a lot of people unsaved, including many who believe strongly in their faith. As a result, my view is not very popular. As you might expect, my definition of saved is different from what Christians mean by the word. But then, I can hear the chorus say, who cares? Ed Harry
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Howdy Ed Storms, Back in the 1880's some Jews made a deal and bought some land from the Sultan of Turkey to establish Kibbutze farms along the Gaza strip, later greenhouses. So I could suppose that a guy got thrown off his land might harbor some resentment but it depends on who you are in this ole world. I noticed after WW2, the survivors of the Nazi trick of oven baked Jew asked the Swiss banks for their money back on deposit but .. again, it depends on who you are in this ole world. Richard
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Terry sez: There is no escaping karma. In a previous life, you never called, you never wrote, you never visited. And whose fault was that? Priceless. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
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On 11/6/2008 1:45 PM, Edmund Storms wrote: Harry Veeder wrote: On 11/6/2008 1:49 AM, Edmund Storms wrote: thomas malloy wrote: Edmund Storms wrote: thomas malloy wrote: The return of the Jews, the conquest of the land, it's subsequent prosperity, the hatred of the Arabs, their refusal to get over the indignity of the loss of that part of their conquered land, the Liberals support of Islam. IMHO, It's all supernatural. BTW, comprise will get no where with the Islamists, it's counterproductive. If this is the case Thomas, Israel better have God on its side because otherwise the country is doomed. This conclusion is obvious to any rational person, not just liberals. Here is a small country that is not self sufficient without outside aid and is Your comments just tickle me Ed, this is exactly the scenario that the prophecies said would occur. Good, this is the spirit we need to continue a discussion. Of course, a person explaining such a conflict even in the past would predict that some people would try to find a reasonable solution. But, this is not your point. I assume you believe this conflict was foretold in the Bible and that it will end badly, after which Christ will return and set things right again. Is this your belief? I believe this is a case of a self fulfilling prophecy that various people worked to bring about in modern times. I agree it will end badly, but I don't believe it will result in any supernatural events that will reward Christians. I don't think the bible says only Christians will be rewarded. According to Christian interpretation, only people who are Christians or who have converted will be saved. Of course, good reasons can be suggested not to know what the Bible means on many levels. As a result, the book has been used to support the self-interest of the various churches, which adds to the confusion. Fortunately, I believe we are not going to be saved based on being Christian or having any faith-based belief. We are saved by our actions and awareness. Of course, that leaves a lot of people unsaved, including many who believe strongly in their faith. As a result, my view is not very popular. As you might expect, my definition of saved is different from what Christians mean by the word. But then, I can hear the chorus say, who cares? Ed oh, I thought the righteous would be saved as well. Harry
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R C Macaulay wrote: Howdy Vorts, Gosh, golly, gee folks, here we go again with the Jews and arabs. This time the wedge is oil. The USA uses oil like toilet paper and everybuddy knows wez intitled to it.. or we think we do. We have enough oil provided we turn off a few lights and live like I we did back I've heard that if you add Brown's Gas to the intake air you can double the fuel efficiency. Coincident with this you have to trick the computer into reading the input of the oxygen (thermal) sensor as having a suitable heat. This is, of course against the law. Is this the Oil Gang? is it c//onspiracy or coincidence? --- Get FREE High Speed Internet from USFamily.Net! -- http://www.usfamily.net/mkt-freepromo.html ---
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Howdy Thomas, Don't know. Doubt any complex conspiracies are developing in Wash DC other than a regime is passing and the players in the great game are scrambling as new players form behind the curtain for the next act in the drama. Beyond gridlock could be the theme and the music a takeoff of seems I've heard that song before, it's from an old familar score. Richard Thomas wrote, Is this the Oil Gang? is it c//onspiracy or coincidence?
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OrionWorks wrote: Philip sez: ... People are where they are because it's where they are, as part of the dream. My approach is, live with it. go out, have a coffee and a bagel (or some nice organic bread) and get on with life. There's room enough for everyone, and everyone can make good, as long as they work for everything, and don't try to plunder what the next man has. This strikes me as incredibly naive. And yet, it is precisely how I try to live my life each day. I often feel like I'm not very good at it - living up to this interpretation of the Golden Rule. It is nevertheless a worthy goal to strive towards each day, one day at a time. Perhaps in ten or twelve more lifetimes I'll get the hang of it. ;-) Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way; there isn't any practice effect among incarnated beings. Memory is organic, mediated by the hippocampus and related brain hardware. Consequently at the end of your life, you'll leave that all behind; in your next life you won't remember anything about Steve Johnson, and, considering how outnumbered humans are among the sentient creatures, chances are you won't even remember anything about what it's like to be human. You'll just have to start over from scratch, and make the best of it as a gerbil or whatever your consciousness happens to be stuck in next time around. How we're supposed to get anywhere with a system like this beats me. Baklava, anyone? Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
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Stephen, you are making a huge assumption when you say that past lives are not remembered. I suggest you read the books by Dr. Ian Stevenson (MD). Prof. Stevenson spent his career at the University of Virginia investigating reincarnation using a scientific approach. Naturally, his extensive investigation has been largely ignored because, as you point out, it defies physical and conventional understanding. Nevertheless, evidence exists for past-life memories, especially in children. This life might not be a waste after all. Ed Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: OrionWorks wrote: Philip sez: ... People are where they are because it's where they are, as part of the dream. My approach is, live with it. go out, have a coffee and a bagel (or some nice organic bread) and get on with life. There's room enough for everyone, and everyone can make good, as long as they work for everything, and don't try to plunder what the next man has. This strikes me as incredibly naive. And yet, it is precisely how I try to live my life each day. I often feel like I'm not very good at it - living up to this interpretation of the Golden Rule. It is nevertheless a worthy goal to strive towards each day, one day at a time. Perhaps in ten or twelve more lifetimes I'll get the hang of it. ;-) Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way; there isn't any practice effect among incarnated beings. Memory is organic, mediated by the hippocampus and related brain hardware. Consequently at the end of your life, you'll leave that all behind; in your next life you won't remember anything about Steve Johnson, and, considering how outnumbered humans are among the sentient creatures, chances are you won't even remember anything about what it's like to be human. You'll just have to start over from scratch, and make the best of it as a gerbil or whatever your consciousness happens to be stuck in next time around. How we're supposed to get anywhere with a system like this beats me. Baklava, anyone? Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
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Stephen sez: Perhaps in ten or twelve more lifetimes I'll get the hang of it. ;-) Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way; there isn't any practice effect among incarnated beings. Memory is organic, mediated by the hippocampus and related brain hardware. Consequently at the end of your life, you'll leave that all behind; in your next life you won't remember anything about Steve Johnson, and, considering how outnumbered humans are among the sentient creatures, chances are you won't even remember anything about what it's like to be human. You'll just have to start over from scratch, and make the best of it as a gerbil or whatever your consciousness happens to be stuck in next time around. How we're supposed to get anywhere with a system like this beats me. Hey! Don't disrespect all my past gerbil friendships! ;-) IMO, I'm not sure the essence of what is behind memory is organic. I suspect many NewAgers would counter this POV with the premise that if we all truly left behind all of our memories each time we died none of us would have progressed past the intelligence of the precursor to anaerobic bacterium. There are plenty of documented accounts of individuals who have memories of times past. Even Carl Sagan expressed his suspicions. As for me, and IMHO, the essence of growth is not to remember who or what one's name used to be, or where one might have lived, what one's social status was, or whether one was male or female. All that is trivial fluff that only has superficial significance during our very temporary life spans. Memory as I interpret it is that we learn the essence of what works and what doesn't. As played out in a basic analogy: I kill you. Next time around you kill me... well, ok, we've both done that now, maybe there's a better way to interact with each other... What can we try next? Maybe we can eventually end up actually liking each other precisely because we are so different from each other. Who wants to remember all that drama time after time. No wonder most of us don't. (Emphasis on the word: most.) I'd rather start out fresh with the illusion of a clean slate. I did like our final argument: How we're supposed to get anywhere with a system like this beats me. Beats me too! I suspect one of the reasons I come here is to be constantly confronted with unexplained mysteries. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Oil Gang responds
Edmund Storms wrote: Stephen, you are making a huge assumption when you say that past lives are not remembered. True, it's a big one; it's based on the small amount I've read about brain science plus some major guesses. So far, as we continue to learn more about brain function, everything seems to be explainable in terms of the actual physical brain structures. Simulating or mapping an entire human brain is still 'way beyond anything anyone can do at this time, but simpler brains have been mapped and simulated, and effects caused by the ghost in the machine haven't turned up. That /suggests/ that the stuff which a brain has learned, and which its owner can remember, does indeed come from interactions with the outside world, through the apparent physical pathways rather than through any alleged extraphysical path. Supporting this view are impromptu studies of people whose interaction with the external world is limited. The most dramatic was the classic (and accidental) experiment on H.M. (hope I got the initials right) in bilateral hippocampectomy which showed pretty conclusively -- and rather horribly -- that additions to your memory are mediated by the hippocampus and do require that physical structure to take place. Remove the physical switching center and further additions to memory are impossible. Sorry, I couldn't scare up a good link on this one just now. Summary, for those who haven't heard of this, based on my somewhat hazy memories from long ago when I first learned of this case: The patient, H.M., had some problem or other (seizures, depression, something someone thought could be cured using a knife) and had the bad luck to encounter a surgeon who speculated that a bilateral hippocampectomy was just the ticket to cure him. Well, as I got the story, the surgery did indeed cure the condition, but it also made it impossible for H.M. to learn anything new, ever again. From that day forward, every day he awoke was, to him, the day after the operation ... decades later, it was still the day after the operation for him. Lucky for him, he was optimistic about the surgery and awoke in good spirits afterwards, because he repeated the experience many, many times. His short term memory was more or less OK, by the way -- it was migration of memories from short term storage to long term storage that was blocked. (After a number of years had gone by, it was observed that H.M. became agitated upon looking in a mirror -- the aged face looking back at him wasn't at all what he expected to see.) Anyhow what all this suggests to me, as I already said, is that the contents of our memory are based on the physical brain structures, with those structures being formed using a genetic blueprint overlaid with lots of training; I don't see a place for extraphysical memories to work their way in. But perhaps I'm just being too hard-headed (is that like being solid-brained?). On the other hand, as an aside, it seems to me that a strong argument can be made on probabilistic grounds in favor of reincarnation -- but I won't go into that here, at least not just now. Ironically, if memory is truly physical, then we can never know if reincarnation is fact or just fantasy. (And an interesting argument can be made, again purely on the basis of probability theory with some simple assumptions, that the end of the world is nigh -- and perhaps both arguments are correct, and that plus 3 bucks will get you a ride on a bus. Whatever. At least the end-of-the-world argument can [and will] be tested.) I suggest you read the books by Dr. Ian Stevenson (MD). Prof. Stevenson spent his career at the University of Virginia investigating reincarnation using a scientific approach. Naturally, his extensive investigation has been largely ignored because, as you point out, it defies physical and conventional understanding. Nevertheless, evidence exists for past-life memories, especially in children. This life might not be a waste after all. Thanks; I will take a look at it. If nothing else it has the potential to be more optimistic than the bulk of what I read these days, which sometimes leaves me feeling pretty bummed about the world. Ed
Re: [Vo]:Oil Gang responds
I think people make a mistake by defining the problem too narrowly. Only those facts or observation that involve physical processes are considered. Everything else is pushed aside as being religion, mysticism, or imagination. Granted, if each metaphysical observation is viewed in isolation, such an approach looks very reasonable. However, if the whole field of such phenomenon is examined, a consistent picture emerges. The psi effects and other extraphysical mental abilities, the observations of ghosts and other such occurrences, reincarnation, and, last but not least, the abilities of certain men such as Sai Baba, all of these well studied and documented effects lead to a significant and logical conclusion. The conclusion is that a reality exists that is superimposed on the physical one we know and love. This reality is detected occasionally by the brain as well as by scientific instruments. In the past, such studies and occurrences have been the red meat of religion, with all of the confusion and superstition this approach provides. I suggest open minded people now have enough information available to them that is not contaminated by the self-serving needs of religion so that they can start to see a new reality. Since we all are interested in the physical reality, I would hope this new one would create at least as much interest and open minded discussion, without religion being involved. After all, long ago mankind moved from using religion to explain the physical reality. Why can't this improved approach be applied to this new reality? Ed Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: Edmund Storms wrote: Stephen, you are making a huge assumption when you say that past lives are not remembered. True, it's a big one; it's based on the small amount I've read about brain science plus some major guesses. So far, as we continue to learn more about brain function, everything seems to be explainable in terms of the actual physical brain structures. Simulating or mapping an entire human brain is still 'way beyond anything anyone can do at this time, but simpler brains have been mapped and simulated, and effects caused by the ghost in the machine haven't turned up. That /suggests/ that the stuff which a brain has learned, and which its owner can remember, does indeed come from interactions with the outside world, through the apparent physical pathways rather than through any alleged extraphysical path. Supporting this view are impromptu studies of people whose interaction with the external world is limited. The most dramatic was the classic (and accidental) experiment on H.M. (hope I got the initials right) in bilateral hippocampectomy which showed pretty conclusively -- and rather horribly -- that additions to your memory are mediated by the hippocampus and do require that physical structure to take place. Remove the physical switching center and further additions to memory are impossible. Sorry, I couldn't scare up a good link on this one just now. Summary, for those who haven't heard of this, based on my somewhat hazy memories from long ago when I first learned of this case: The patient, H.M., had some problem or other (seizures, depression, something someone thought could be cured using a knife) and had the bad luck to encounter a surgeon who speculated that a bilateral hippocampectomy was just the ticket to cure him. Well, as I got the story, the surgery did indeed cure the condition, but it also made it impossible for H.M. to learn anything new, ever again. From that day forward, every day he awoke was, to him, the day after the operation ... decades later, it was still the day after the operation for him. Lucky for him, he was optimistic about the surgery and awoke in good spirits afterwards, because he repeated the experience many, many times. His short term memory was more or less OK, by the way -- it was migration of memories from short term storage to long term storage that was blocked. (After a number of years had gone by, it was observed that H.M. became agitated upon looking in a mirror -- the aged face looking back at him wasn't at all what he expected to see.) Anyhow what all this suggests to me, as I already said, is that the contents of our memory are based on the physical brain structures, with those structures being formed using a genetic blueprint overlaid with lots of training; I don't see a place for extraphysical memories to work their way in. But perhaps I'm just being too hard-headed (is that like being solid-brained?). On the other hand, as an aside, it seems to me that a strong argument can be made on probabilistic grounds in favor of reincarnation -- but I won't go into that here, at least not just now. Ironically, if memory is truly physical, then we can never know if reincarnation is fact or just fantasy. (And an interesting argument can be made, again purely on the basis of probability theory with
Re: [Vo]:Oil Gang responds
On a more personal note, Shephen. I agree, the brain can do some very strange things. Naturally, these are always explained using established physical laws, rather like the approach we experience with cold fusion. But as I get older and more educated about other possibilities, I find I have a self interest in learning what is in store for me after death. Religion provides no answers I can accept, being more confident in the scientific approach. I realize other people find great pleasure in believing what religion claims and would not welcome the possibility that the claims are all just imagination and self promotion. Nevertheless, I always hope there are a few people in the world who share my approach, but apparently not many. Ed Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: Edmund Storms wrote: Stephen, you are making a huge assumption when you say that past lives are not remembered. True, it's a big one; it's based on the small amount I've read about brain science plus some major guesses. So far, as we continue to learn more about brain function, everything seems to be explainable in terms of the actual physical brain structures. Simulating or mapping an entire human brain is still 'way beyond anything anyone can do at this time, but simpler brains have been mapped and simulated, and effects caused by the ghost in the machine haven't turned up. That /suggests/ that the stuff which a brain has learned, and which its owner can remember, does indeed come from interactions with the outside world, through the apparent physical pathways rather than through any alleged extraphysical path. Supporting this view are impromptu studies of people whose interaction with the external world is limited. The most dramatic was the classic (and accidental) experiment on H.M. (hope I got the initials right) in bilateral hippocampectomy which showed pretty conclusively -- and rather horribly -- that additions to your memory are mediated by the hippocampus and do require that physical structure to take place. Remove the physical switching center and further additions to memory are impossible. Sorry, I couldn't scare up a good link on this one just now. Summary, for those who haven't heard of this, based on my somewhat hazy memories from long ago when I first learned of this case: The patient, H.M., had some problem or other (seizures, depression, something someone thought could be cured using a knife) and had the bad luck to encounter a surgeon who speculated that a bilateral hippocampectomy was just the ticket to cure him. Well, as I got the story, the surgery did indeed cure the condition, but it also made it impossible for H.M. to learn anything new, ever again. From that day forward, every day he awoke was, to him, the day after the operation ... decades later, it was still the day after the operation for him. Lucky for him, he was optimistic about the surgery and awoke in good spirits afterwards, because he repeated the experience many, many times. His short term memory was more or less OK, by the way -- it was migration of memories from short term storage to long term storage that was blocked. (After a number of years had gone by, it was observed that H.M. became agitated upon looking in a mirror -- the aged face looking back at him wasn't at all what he expected to see.) Anyhow what all this suggests to me, as I already said, is that the contents of our memory are based on the physical brain structures, with those structures being formed using a genetic blueprint overlaid with lots of training; I don't see a place for extraphysical memories to work their way in. But perhaps I'm just being too hard-headed (is that like being solid-brained?). On the other hand, as an aside, it seems to me that a strong argument can be made on probabilistic grounds in favor of reincarnation -- but I won't go into that here, at least not just now. Ironically, if memory is truly physical, then we can never know if reincarnation is fact or just fantasy. (And an interesting argument can be made, again purely on the basis of probability theory with some simple assumptions, that the end of the world is nigh -- and perhaps both arguments are correct, and that plus 3 bucks will get you a ride on a bus. Whatever. At least the end-of-the-world argument can [and will] be tested.) I suggest you read the books by Dr. Ian Stevenson (MD). Prof. Stevenson spent his career at the University of Virginia investigating reincarnation using a scientific approach. Naturally, his extensive investigation has been largely ignored because, as you point out, it defies physical and conventional understanding. Nevertheless, evidence exists for past-life memories, especially in children. This life might not be a waste after all. Thanks; I will take a look at it. If nothing else it has the potential to be more optimistic than the bulk of what I read these days, which sometimes
Re: [Vo]:Oil Gang responds
Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: R C Macaulay wrote: Howdy Vorts, Gosh, golly, gee folks, here we go again with the Jews and arabs. This time the wedge is oil. The USA uses oil like toilet paper and everybuddy knows wez intitled to it.. or we think we do. We have enough oil provided we turn off This didn't endear the nascent nation of Israel to the locals, and doesn't seem to put the possession of the land of Israel on the firmest of legal footings. Oh, granted, God said it was theirs, so under God's law it's clear cut, but under international law it's rather hazier, I think; unlike God's law, international law doesn't technically recognize the principle of might makes right. I think that the principal of the gain of territory by military conquest is an established principal of international law. In particular, this applies to aggressors, who subsequently loose the war that they start. The problem is that people of a certain political persuasion don't want the rules to apply to the followers of Judeo Christian Civilization. IMHO, the Philistines repeated losses to the Israelis should tell you something, particularly since they out number them 10 to one. --- Get FREE High Speed Internet from USFamily.Net! -- http://www.usfamily.net/mkt-freepromo.html ---
Re: [Vo]:Oil Gang responds
From Thomas: R C Macaulay wrote: Howdy Vorts, Gosh, golly, gee folks, here we go again with the Jews and arabs. This time the wedge is oil. The USA uses oil like toilet paper and everybuddy knows wez intitled to it.. or we think we do. We have enough oil provided we turn off This didn't endear the nascent nation of Israel to the locals, and doesn't seem to put the possession of the land of Israel on the firmest of legal footings. Oh, granted, God said it was theirs, so under God's law it's clear cut, but under international law it's rather hazier, I think; unlike God's law, international law doesn't technically recognize the principle of might makes right. I think that the principal of the gain of territory by military conquest is an established principal of international law. In particular, this applies to aggressors, who subsequently loose the war that they start. A controversial yet shrewd observation. The problem is that people of a certain political persuasion don't want the rules to apply to the followers of Judeo Christian Civilization. IMHO, the Philistines repeated losses to the Israelis should tell you something, particularly since they out number them 10 to one. It tells me countries like Israel had better weaponry. What does it tell you? Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Oil Gang responds
You are certainly right Stephen, might does make right and land is always taken by force and retained the victor. We did it to the British, the Indians, and to the Mexicans while feeling very proud of ourselves. However, the situation with Israel is different. Here a higher moral principal is being claimed, i.e. God's will. We are to believe that the Jews are more favored than the Philistines by God and that the moral teachings of Christ allow such a conquest. This is not a normal conflict! In addition, even if we ignore the moral issue, the practical issue of Israel being able to survive while being surrounded by angry people who have access to rockets needs to be considered. Granted, Israel has won the pitched battles. But, will they win the war without compromise? Ed thomas malloy wrote: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: R C Macaulay wrote: Howdy Vorts, Gosh, golly, gee folks, here we go again with the Jews and arabs. This time the wedge is oil. The USA uses oil like toilet paper and everybuddy knows wez intitled to it.. or we think we do. We have enough oil provided we turn off This didn't endear the nascent nation of Israel to the locals, and doesn't seem to put the possession of the land of Israel on the firmest of legal footings. Oh, granted, God said it was theirs, so under God's law it's clear cut, but under international law it's rather hazier, I think; unlike God's law, international law doesn't technically recognize the principle of might makes right. I think that the principal of the gain of territory by military conquest is an established principal of international law. In particular, this applies to aggressors, who subsequently loose the war that they start. The problem is that people of a certain political persuasion don't want the rules to apply to the followers of Judeo Christian Civilization. IMHO, the Philistines repeated losses to the Israelis should tell you something, particularly since they out number them 10 to one. --- Get FREE High Speed Internet from USFamily.Net! -- http://www.usfamily.net/mkt-freepromo.html ---
Re: [Vo]:Oil Gang responds
Apology to all: This is way, way off topic. I won't respond again on anything biblical, or even Middle Eastern, in this thread. (If you want to yell at me about it do it privately and spare the rest of the list.) thomas malloy wrote: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: R C Macaulay wrote: Howdy Vorts, Gosh, golly, gee folks, here we go again with the Jews and arabs. This time the wedge is oil. The USA uses oil like toilet paper and everybuddy knows wez intitled to it.. or we think we do. We have enough oil provided we turn off This didn't endear the nascent nation of Israel to the locals, and doesn't seem to put the possession of the land of Israel on the firmest of legal footings. Oh, granted, God said it was theirs, so under God's law it's clear cut, but under international law it's rather hazier, I think; unlike God's law, international law doesn't technically recognize the principle of might makes right. I think that the principal of the gain of territory by military conquest is an established principal of international law. Interesting view you have of international _law_. Taking territory by conquest and holding it by force is a way of doing it which works; that is true. It worked for Rome when they had a Carthage problem, and it worked for Genghis Khan and his sons. Taking power by coup with support of the military and holding it by dint of that same military is an established way of doing that, too. However, both of those approaches are commonly called rule of men rather than rule of law. Neither approach will stand up in court. (Just check out the last stages of General Pinochet's career if you don't know what I mean by court. It's a different word from battlefield.) Last I heard, international law as currently defined didn't recognize the right of a strong country to just barge in and steal land from a weak country, but perhaps we're talking about two different internationals here, eh? Or two different kinds of law? While this concept of the rule of law, in its current form, is pretty modern (and vastly post-dates biblical law, or Sharia law) the basics have been around for at least a few centuries. Didn't you ever wonder why the United States government was always so determined to get treaties signed with various American Indian tribes? They had the Indians outgunned at least 10 to 1, so they didn't really need the treaties; and certainly it wasn't to record real promises, as the government rarely honored the treaties, and typically just replaced them when they grew tired of the terms. However, whether the treaties were signed by free will or deception or coercion or something else, the rulers of the U.S. were well aware that it was important to establish, at least on paper, a legal basis for the existence of the country. Even then they were aware of the issue of international law. Canada neglected that technicality for parts of Ontario and now, a century or two later, there is a tempest brewing as a result. So far the problem has been largely swept under the rug, but I don't think that approach is going to work forever. No doubt the government will eventually manage to defuse the situation, but I expect it's going to take some substantial effort and possibly a good size chunk of cash to fix it permanently. Down in the States the gummint was cleverer and they don't have this problem. In particular, this applies to aggressors, who subsequently loose the war that they start. Are you stating this as a general principle? Do you honestly mean to say the aggressor always loses? Have you read any American history? Have you ever heard of Rome? Granted, Rome eventually fell -- but the western empire lasted several hundred years, and the eastern portion lasted about 1000 years. Justice delayed is justice denied goes the saying, and that's rather a long delay IMHO. If that's your idea of a demonstration that the aggressor subsequently loses the war, well, heck, just wait 'til the heat death of the universe, then you'll see that /everybody/ eventually loses. Have you ever heard of Genghis Khan? Though his empire eventually split into several parts, portions of it persisted for a very long time. Of course he died, which I suppose you could take to mean God disapproved of him. But then most of his contemporaries seem to have died too, including the Christian ones. The problem is that people of a certain political persuasion don't want the rules to apply to the followers of Judeo Christian Civilization. IMHO, the Philistines repeated losses to the Israelis should tell you something, particularly since they out number them 10 to one. When you say Philistines do you really mean Philistines or is it just your quaint way of saying Arabs? The modern Arabs lost to the Israelis repeatedly, and there was nothing strange about it. They were using Russian equipment, which kind of stank, and
Re: [Vo]:Oil Gang responds
Edmund Storms wrote: You are certainly right Stephen, might does make right and land is always taken by force and retained the victor. Excuse me, I didn't say that, or didn't intend to. It's Thomas who elevated it to a principle of international law in this thread, just before I went ballistic and belched out an oversized load response. Just to reiterate, I said: international law doesn't technically recognize the principle of might makes right. As always you can get away with whatever you can get away with; that's a tautology. But that doesn't make it right or legal. We did it to the British, the Indians, and to the Mexicans while feeling very proud of ourselves. However, the situation with Israel is different. Here a higher moral principal is being claimed, i.e. God's will. We are to believe that the Jews are more favored than the Philistines by God and that the moral teachings of Christ allow such a conquest. This is not a normal conflict! In addition, even if we ignore the moral issue, the practical issue of Israel being able to survive while being surrounded by angry people who have access to rockets needs to be considered. Granted, Israel has won the pitched battles. But, will they win the war without compromise? Ed thomas malloy wrote: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: R C Macaulay wrote: Howdy Vorts, Gosh, golly, gee folks, here we go again with the Jews and arabs. This time the wedge is oil. The USA uses oil like toilet paper and everybuddy knows wez intitled to it.. or we think we do. We have enough oil provided we turn off This didn't endear the nascent nation of Israel to the locals, and doesn't seem to put the possession of the land of Israel on the firmest of legal footings. Oh, granted, God said it was theirs, so under God's law it's clear cut, but under international law it's rather hazier, I think; unlike God's law, international law doesn't technically recognize the principle of might makes right. Thomas's response starts here: I think that the principal of the gain of territory by military conquest is an established principal of international law. In particular, this applies to aggressors, who subsequently loose the war that they start. The problem is that people of a certain political persuasion don't want the rules to apply to the followers of Judeo Christian Civilization. IMHO, the Philistines repeated losses to the Israelis should tell you something, particularly since they out number them 10 to one. --- Get FREE High Speed Internet from USFamily.Net! -- http://www.usfamily.net/mkt-freepromo.html ---
Re: [Vo]:Oil Gang responds
Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: Edmund Storms wrote: You are certainly right Stephen, might does make right and land is always taken by force and retained the victor. Excuse me, I didn't say that, or didn't intend to. It's Thomas who elevated it to a principle of international law in this thread, just before I went ballistic and belched out an oversized load response. Just to reiterate, I said: international law doesn't technically recognize the principle of might makes right. As always you can get away with whatever you can get away with; that's a tautology. But that doesn't make it right or legal. Sorry to misinterpret you. Nevertheless, I agree with you. However, international law is a recent concept as our examples point out. So, on that basis, Israel has violated international law as well as the moral behavior Christ taught. So, what remains? I guess if you can prove that you have God on your side, this trump's everything. Ed We did it to the British, the Indians, and to the Mexicans while feeling very proud of ourselves. However, the situation with Israel is different. Here a higher moral principal is being claimed, i.e. God's will. We are to believe that the Jews are more favored than the Philistines by God and that the moral teachings of Christ allow such a conquest. This is not a normal conflict! In addition, even if we ignore the moral issue, the practical issue of Israel being able to survive while being surrounded by angry people who have access to rockets needs to be considered. Granted, Israel has won the pitched battles. But, will they win the war without compromise? Ed thomas malloy wrote: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: R C Macaulay wrote: Howdy Vorts, Gosh, golly, gee folks, here we go again with the Jews and arabs. This time the wedge is oil. The USA uses oil like toilet paper and everybuddy knows wez intitled to it.. or we think we do. We have enough oil provided we turn off This didn't endear the nascent nation of Israel to the locals, and doesn't seem to put the possession of the land of Israel on the firmest of legal footings. Oh, granted, God said it was theirs, so under God's law it's clear cut, but under international law it's rather hazier, I think; unlike God's law, international law doesn't technically recognize the principle of might makes right. Thomas's response starts here: I think that the principal of the gain of territory by military conquest is an established principal of international law. In particular, this applies to aggressors, who subsequently loose the war that they start. The problem is that people of a certain political persuasion don't want the rules to apply to the followers of Judeo Christian Civilization. IMHO, the Philistines repeated losses to the Israelis should tell you something, particularly since they out number them 10 to one. --- Get FREE High Speed Internet from USFamily.Net! -- http://www.usfamily.net/mkt-freepromo.html ---
Re: [Vo]:Oil Gang responds
From Ed Storms: Sorry to misinterpret you [S. Lawrence]. Nevertheless, I agree with you. However, international law is a recent concept as our examples point out. So, on that basis, Israel has violated international law as well as the moral behavior Christ taught. So, what remains? I guess if you can prove that you have God on your side, this trump's everything. Ed And to state the obvious, we all know that both camps claim that their All-Powerful and Merciful God claims the same territory for His chosen children. I sometimes like to fantasize a sarcastic outcome: That a good dose of atheism would go a long way towards breaking this pissing contest - but I suspect if I were to suggest it one of these Almighty Gods would smite me as I stand. Life's a b_tch when the Gods are offended. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Oil Gang responds
Good idea, Steven, but I suggest a different approach from atheism. A good dose of real humility would work as well. If they would simply question whether a god as old and complex as the one that must exist in a universe as vast and old as ours would give a shit who occupies this speck of land. Ed OrionWorks wrote: From Ed Storms: Sorry to misinterpret you [S. Lawrence]. Nevertheless, I agree with you. However, international law is a recent concept as our examples point out. So, on that basis, Israel has violated international law as well as the moral behavior Christ taught. So, what remains? I guess if you can prove that you have God on your side, this trump's everything. Ed And to state the obvious, we all know that both camps claim that their All-Powerful and Merciful God claims the same territory for His chosen children. I sometimes like to fantasize a sarcastic outcome: That a good dose of atheism would go a long way towards breaking this pissing contest - but I suspect if I were to suggest it one of these Almighty Gods would smite me as I stand. Life's a b_tch when the Gods are offended. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Oil Gang responds
Quite right Ed. For an interesting story on this, read any of the biographies of Edgar Cayce - The Sleeping Prophet P.. - Original Message From: Edmund Storms [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 10:10:08 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Oil Gang responds Stephen, you are making a huge assumption when you say that past lives are not remembered. I suggest you read the books by Dr. Ian Stevenson (MD). Prof. Stevenson spent his career at the University of Virginia investigating reincarnation using a scientific approach. Naturally, his extensive investigation has been largely ignored because, as you point out, it defies physical and conventional understanding. Nevertheless, evidence exists for past-life memories, especially in children. This life might not be a waste after all. Ed Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: OrionWorks wrote: Philip sez: ... People are where they are because it's where they are, as part of the dream. My approach is, live with it. go out, have a coffee and a bagel (or some nice organic bread) and get on with life. There's room enough for everyone, and everyone can make good, as long as they work for everything, and don't try to plunder what the next man has. This strikes me as incredibly naive. And yet, it is precisely how I try to live my life each day. I often feel like I'm not very good at it - living up to this interpretation of the Golden Rule. It is nevertheless a worthy goal to strive towards each day, one day at a time. Perhaps in ten or twelve more lifetimes I'll get the hang of it. ;-) Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way; there isn't any practice effect among incarnated beings. Memory is organic, mediated by the hippocampus and related brain hardware. Consequently at the end of your life, you'll leave that all behind; in your next life you won't remember anything about Steve Johnson, and, considering how outnumbered humans are among the sentient creatures, chances are you won't even remember anything about what it's like to be human. You'll just have to start over from scratch, and make the best of it as a gerbil or whatever your consciousness happens to be stuck in next time around. How we're supposed to get anywhere with a system like this beats me. Baklava, anyone? Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Oil Gang responds
Good suggestion, Philip. I have read the biographies of Edgar Cayce. He is another example of powers that have no physical explanation and no religious significance. Ed PHILIP WINESTONE wrote: Quite right Ed. For an interesting story on this, read any of the biographies of Edgar Cayce - The Sleeping Prophet P.. - Original Message From: Edmund Storms [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 10:10:08 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Oil Gang responds Stephen, you are making a huge assumption when you say that past lives are not remembered. I suggest you read the books by Dr. Ian Stevenson (MD). Prof. Stevenson spent his career at the University of Virginia investigating reincarnation using a scientific approach. Naturally, his extensive investigation has been largely ignored because, as you point out, it defies physical and conventional understanding. Nevertheless, evidence exists for past-life memories, especially in children. This life might not be a waste after all. Ed Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: OrionWorks wrote: Philip sez: ... People are where they are because it's where they are, as part of the dream. My approach is, live with it. go out, have a coffee and a bagel (or some nice organic bread) and get on with life. There's room enough for everyone, and everyone can make good, as long as they work for everything, and don't try to plunder what the next man has. This strikes me as incredibly naive. And yet, it is precisely how I try to live my life each day. I often feel like I'm not very good at it - living up to this interpretation of the Golden Rule. It is nevertheless a worthy goal to strive towards each day, one day at a time. Perhaps in ten or twelve more lifetimes I'll get the hang of it. ;-) Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way; there isn't any practice effect among incarnated beings. Memory is organic, mediated by the hippocampus and related brain hardware. Consequently at the end of your life, you'll leave that all behind; in your next life you won't remember anything about Steve Johnson, and, considering how outnumbered humans are among the sentient creatures, chances are you won't even remember anything about what it's like to be human. You'll just have to start over from scratch, and make the best of it as a gerbil or whatever your consciousness happens to be stuck in next time around. How we're supposed to get anywhere with a system like this beats me. Baklava, anyone? Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Oil Gang responds
The return of the Jews, the conquest of the land, it's subsequent prosperity, the hatred of the Arabs, their refusal to get over the indignity of the loss of that part of their conquered land, the Liberals support of Islam. IMHO, It's all supernatural. BTW, comprise will get no where with the Islamists, it's counterproductive. Edmund Storms wrote: God's will. We are to believe that the Jews are more favored than the Philistines by God and that the moral teachings of Christ allow such a conquest. This is not a normal conflict! In addition, even if we ignore the moral issue, the practical issue of Israel being able to survive while being surrounded by angry people who have access to rockets needs to be considered. Granted, Israel has won the pitched battles. But, will they win the war without compromise? thomas malloy wrote: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: R C Macaulay wrote: Howdy Vorts, Gosh, golly, gee folks, here we go again with the Jews and arabs. This time the wedge is oil. The USA --- Get FREE High Speed Internet from USFamily.Net! -- http://www.usfamily.net/mkt-freepromo.html ---
Re: [Vo]:Oil Gang responds
thomas malloy wrote: The return of the Jews, the conquest of the land, it's subsequent prosperity, the hatred of the Arabs, their refusal to get over the indignity of the loss of that part of their conquered land, the Liberals support of Islam. IMHO, It's all supernatural. BTW, comprise will get no where with the Islamists, it's counterproductive. If this is the case Thomas, Israel better have God on its side because otherwise the country is doomed. This conclusion is obvious to any rational person, not just liberals. Here is a small country that is not self sufficient without outside aid and is surrounding itself with walls to protect itself from its neighbors. Meanwhile, it is surrounded by a hostile population that is growing richer and increasing in numbers. At the same time, the rest of the world is being significantly inconvenienced by the consequences of the conflicts in the area, i.e. higher oil prices. To make the situation worse for Israel, its actions violate modern standards of behavior, as shown by the various UN resolutions, both passed and proposed, that condemn its behavior. Surely these facts must concern all Jews and Christians. At some point, theological and historical arguments simply won't work any more. How long must people wait until this reality becomes obvious? Ed Edmund Storms wrote: God's will. We are to believe that the Jews are more favored than the Philistines by God and that the moral teachings of Christ allow such a conquest. This is not a normal conflict! In addition, even if we ignore the moral issue, the practical issue of Israel being able to survive while being surrounded by angry people who have access to rockets needs to be considered. Granted, Israel has won the pitched battles. But, will they win the war without compromise? thomas malloy wrote: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: R C Macaulay wrote: Howdy Vorts, Gosh, golly, gee folks, here we go again with the Jews and arabs. This time the wedge is oil. The USA --- Get FREE High Speed Internet from USFamily.Net! -- http://www.usfamily.net/mkt-freepromo.html ---
Re: [Vo]:Oil Gang responds
Hmmm... Ya don't think that higher oil prices are due to (1) greed, and (2) the holy purpose of holding the world by the balls until the Caliphate is established (ie - the West succumbs financially and goes down the tubes)? It seems that the scientific idea of cause and effect is somewhat inapplicable to the situation as you see it. Got a migraine? It's Israel! It's the Jews!!! (Take your pick.) Actions violating modern standards of behaviour? Exactly what standards? I've been practising the martial arts for close to 30 years, and I can tell you how best to handle murderous thugs... including those populating that great tax waster, the UN. Like I said before, if a person wants to harm my family or myself, I will spare no effort to put an end to him. Perhaps you should think of what your gut reaction would be in that kind of situation. I venture that if a thug - any thug - came at you or your wife to commit mayhem and you had a gun handy, you couldn't get to it fast enough. If not, you're not a normal human being. This is the human condition. Survival. Not theological or historical arguments. No more walking passively into cattle-cars toward death, surrounded by thugs. Open your eyes Ed. That is, if you want to... which doesn't seem apparent. Too much education and worship of the intellect, perhaps; try using your intuition. Works also for solving Cold Fusion and other energy-related problems. To the others at Vortex; I didn't want to prolong this nonsense, but I simply won't stand by passively when I see lies and hypocrisy in front of me. It's called defamation, and it's been going on for a long time. And it's going to have to stop, or there will be horrendous problems. So I apologize to all. P. - Original Message From: Edmund Storms [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 8:31:10 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Oil Gang responds thomas malloy wrote: The return of the Jews, the conquest of the land, it's subsequent prosperity, the hatred of the Arabs, their refusal to get over the indignity of the loss of that part of their conquered land, the Liberals support of Islam. IMHO, It's all supernatural. BTW, comprise will get no where with the Islamists, it's counterproductive. If this is the case Thomas, Israel better have God on its side because otherwise the country is doomed. This conclusion is obvious to any rational person, not just liberals. Here is a small country that is not self sufficient without outside aid and is surrounding itself with walls to protect itself from its neighbors. Meanwhile, it is surrounded by a hostile population that is growing richer and increasing in numbers. At the same time, the rest of the world is being significantly inconvenienced by the consequences of the conflicts in the area, i.e. higher oil prices. To make the situation worse for Israel, its actions violate modern standards of behavior, as shown by the various UN resolutions, both passed and proposed, that condemn its behavior. Surely these facts must concern all Jews and Christians. At some point, theological and historical arguments simply won't work any more. How long must people wait until this reality becomes obvious? Ed Edmund Storms wrote: God's will. We are to believe that the Jews are more favored than the Philistines by God and that the moral teachings of Christ allow such a conquest. This is not a normal conflict! In addition, even if we ignore the moral issue, the practical issue of Israel being able to survive while being surrounded by angry people who have access to rockets needs to be considered. Granted, Israel has won the pitched battles. But, will they win the war without compromise? thomas malloy wrote: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: R C Macaulay wrote: Howdy Vorts, Gosh, golly, gee folks, here we go again with the Jews and arabs. This time the wedge is oil. The USA --- Get FREE High Speed Internet from USFamily.Net! -- http://www.usfamily.net/mkt-freepromo.html ---
RE: [Vo]:Oil Gang responds
I don't like to play amateur moderator, and you can correctly say that I have no business either. It's just selfish: I enjoy the posts from the participants here, want them to stay, and I can tell the conversation is just this close to where people begin to leave in a huff or get put in the cooler by the real moderator. - Rick
Re: [Vo]:Oil Gang responds
I'm amazed Philip that you would call my analysis lies and hypocrisy. We can differ about what the facts mean, but I don't understand why you can't acknowledge easily verifiable facts. Unfortunately, your reaction is not uncommon and it is the reason why rational decisions are not being made. So that you are not further confused by my approach, by rational decisions I mean ones that would allow Israel to survive without counting on the supernatural. Even the Bible advises that God helps those who help themselves. I see no sign that Israel is taking this advice in a rational way. Instead, they seem to have your approach. No one blames Israel for everything. However, Israel is the cause of the conflicts in that region of the world. You don't need to accept my statement because many sources of this opinion are available. Right now the price of oil is going up partly because of the conflict in Iraq and the possibility that the US or Israel will attack Iran. You can easily check this fact as well. The US has nothing to fear from a proposed nuclear weapon from Iran. First, it can not reach us, they want us to buy their oil in the future, and last but not least, we can turn them into toast. Only Israel has something to fear, as Iran has made clear. Consequently, we are helping Israel even though we have no direct threat to ourselves, while paying dearly. As for fighting thugs, you seem to forget that the people in Palestine were first attacked when Israel was formed. Naturally, they fought back. Now you use this response as a reason to fight them. This is the cycle that always leads to destruction when the sides are evenly matched. That is why Christ advised turning the other cheek. I don't advise this approach now, but the brute force approach is not working either. Unless rational decisions are made in the future, the result I fear will not please either one of us. As for further discussion of this topic, I apologize to anyone who finds this boring or unimportant. Ed PHILIP WINESTONE wrote: Hmmm... Ya don't think that higher oil prices are due to (1) greed, and (2) the holy purpose of holding the world by the balls until the Caliphate is established (ie - the West succumbs financially and goes down the tubes)? It seems that the scientific idea of cause and effect is somewhat inapplicable to the situation as you see it. Got a migraine? It's Israel! It's the Jews!!! (Take your pick.) Actions violating modern standards of behaviour? Exactly what standards? I've been practising the martial arts for close to 30 years, and I can tell you how best to handle murderous thugs... including those populating that great tax waster, the UN. Like I said before, if a person wants to harm my family or myself, I will spare no effort to put an end to him. Perhaps you should think of what your gut reaction would be in that kind of situation. I venture that if a thug - any thug - came at you or your wife to commit mayhem and you had a gun handy, you couldn't get to it fast enough. If not, you're not a normal human being. This is the human condition. Survival. Not theological or historical arguments. No more walking passively into cattle-cars toward death, surrounded by thugs. Open your eyes Ed. That is, if you want to... which doesn't seem apparent. Too much education and worship of the intellect, perhaps; try using your intuition. Works also for solving Cold Fusion and other energy-related problems. To the others at Vortex; I didn't want to prolong this nonsense, but I simply won't stand by passively when I see lies and hypocrisy in front of me. It's called defamation, and it's been going on for a long time. And it's going to have to stop, or there will be horrendous problems. So I apologize to all. P. - Original Message From: Edmund Storms [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 8:31:10 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Oil Gang responds thomas malloy wrote: The return of the Jews, the conquest of the land, it's subsequent prosperity, the hatred of the Arabs, their refusal to get over the indignity of the loss of that part of their conquered land, the Liberals support of Islam. IMHO, It's all supernatural. BTW, comprise will get no where with the Islamists, it's counterproductive. If this is the case Thomas, Israel better have God on its side because otherwise the country is doomed. This conclusion is obvious to any rational person, not just liberals. Here is a small country that is not self sufficient without outside aid and is surrounding itself with walls to protect itself from its neighbors. Meanwhile, it is surrounded by a hostile population that is growing richer and increasing in numbers. At the same time, the rest of the world is being significantly inconvenienced by the consequences of the conflicts in the area, i.e. higher oil prices. To make the situation worse for Israel
Re: [Vo]:Oil Gang responds
As for fighting thugs, you seem to forget that the people in Palestine were first attacked when Israel was formed. This is simply not true - a lie in fact - among many others I've seen from Ed. Ed can be as amazed as he wishes; his ignorance of history is spellbinding... And this is coming from a person who as a youngster, shunned history at school in favour of science. The people in Palestine were told to leave by their leaders, so that the Jews could be easily slaughtered by the better armed and very large Arab armies. It didn't happen. Prior to this time, the Jews in Arab lands were subjected to pogroms and had their houses and belongings confiscated. They were then forcibly expelled... those that weren't killed. PLEASE! I've told you this before, Ed, and I told you to read a damn history book or two; not a book by some Jewish holocaust denying wacko. Where does that put your mentality. Now - again, I'm sorry Vorticians I won't continue this fruitless conversation. I simply can't make the blind see. Out. P. - Original Message From: Edmund Storms [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 10:21:20 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Oil Gang responds I'm amazed Philip that you would call my analysis lies and hypocrisy. We can differ about what the facts mean, but I don't understand why you can't acknowledge easily verifiable facts. Unfortunately, your reaction is not uncommon and it is the reason why rational decisions are not being made. So that you are not further confused by my approach, by rational decisions I mean ones that would allow Israel to survive without counting on the supernatural. Even the Bible advises that God helps those who help themselves. I see no sign that Israel is taking this advice in a rational way. Instead, they seem to have your approach. No one blames Israel for everything. However, Israel is the cause of the conflicts in that region of the world. You don't need to accept my statement because many sources of this opinion are available. Right now the price of oil is going up partly because of the conflict in Iraq and the possibility that the US or Israel will attack Iran. You can easily check this fact as well. The US has nothing to fear from a proposed nuclear weapon from Iran. First, it can not reach us, they want us to buy their oil in the future, and last but not least, we can turn them into toast. Only Israel has something to fear, as Iran has made clear. Consequently, we are helping Israel even though we have no direct threat to ourselves, while paying dearly. As for fighting thugs, you seem to forget that the people in Palestine were first attacked when Israel was formed. Naturally, they fought back. Now you use this response as a reason to fight them. This is the cycle that always leads to destruction when the sides are evenly matched. That is why Christ advised turning the other cheek. I don't advise this approach now, but the brute force approach is not working either. Unless rational decisions are made in the future, the result I fear will not please either one of us. As for further discussion of this topic, I apologize to anyone who finds this boring or unimportant. Ed PHILIP WINESTONE wrote: Hmmm... Ya don't think that higher oil prices are due to (1) greed, and (2) the holy purpose of holding the world by the balls until the Caliphate is established (ie - the West succumbs financially and goes down the tubes)? It seems that the scientific idea of cause and effect is somewhat inapplicable to the situation as you see it. Got a migraine? It's Israel! It's the Jews!!! (Take your pick.) Actions violating modern standards of behaviour? Exactly what standards? I've been practising the martial arts for close to 30 years, and I can tell you how best to handle murderous thugs... including those populating that great tax waster, the UN. Like I said before, if a person wants to harm my family or myself, I will spare no effort to put an end to him. Perhaps you should think of what your gut reaction would be in that kind of situation. I venture that if a thug - any thug - came at you or your wife to commit mayhem and you had a gun handy, you couldn't get to it fast enough. If not, you're not a normal human being. This is the human condition. Survival. Not theological or historical arguments. No more walking passively into cattle-cars toward death, surrounded by thugs. Open your eyes Ed. That is, if you want to... which doesn't seem apparent. Too much education and worship of the intellect, perhaps; try using your intuition. Works also for solving Cold Fusion and other energy-related problems. To the others at Vortex; I didn't want to prolong this nonsense, but I simply won't stand by passively when I see lies and hypocrisy in front of me. It's called defamation, and it's been going on for a long time
Re: [Vo]:Oil Gang responds
Howdy Vorts, Seems this thread has taken on a life of it's own. Time to take the mirror down from behind the bar before sumbuddy starts preaching a sermon and tosses a whiskey bottle. The boys at the Dime Box saloon practice peaceful co-existence and .. the rule is to be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. Which means.. be wise enough to stomp a snake flat and pull his fangs without a discussion and it makes a snake plum peaceful as a dove. Problem is that when Israel does this it's called cruelty to animals. Richard
Re: [Vo]:Oil Gang responds
Edmund Storms wrote: thomas malloy wrote: The return of the Jews, the conquest of the land, it's subsequent prosperity, the hatred of the Arabs, their refusal to get over the indignity of the loss of that part of their conquered land, the Liberals support of Islam. IMHO, It's all supernatural. BTW, comprise will get no where with the Islamists, it's counterproductive. If this is the case Thomas, Israel better have God on its side because otherwise the country is doomed. This conclusion is obvious to any rational person, not just liberals. Here is a small country that is not self sufficient without outside aid and is Your comments just tickle me Ed, this is exactly the scenario that the prophecies said would occur. --- Get FREE High Speed Internet from USFamily.Net! -- http://www.usfamily.net/mkt-freepromo.html ---
Re: [Vo]:Oil Gang responds
Sorry Ed, but there's a lot of muddled thinking in this little essay. Not like you, I'm sure. I don't want to take up much more time in this forum; it's not the place. But if I were you, I'd get right into the history books. Aside from the fact that since the advent of Islam, it's history has been one of conquer and plunder. Look around. India is a good example, as is Persia. History is history. These two great civilizations have managed to retain some of their original character, but most have totally succumbed and are now essentially basket cases. :...land given to Jews by God.. A little study will show that the Romans expelled the Jews of the time from certain areas... not everywhere. Jews have always lived there during the past 2000 years, and many went back after the Roman empire fell. The crusades, by the way, were a rather brutish way of freeing the holy land from the Arabs who had originally plundered it soon after the advent of Islam. Check all this out. And as for for the original Palestinian inhabitants being forced from their land, they were encouraged to leave by their Arab brothers who wanted some free space so that they could slaughter the Jews more easily; the Jews who had just arrived from the concentration camps to join their brethren. The fact that an equal number (almost one million) Jews were unceremoniously thrown out of the Arab lands before the events of 1948 seems to be constantly forgotten. Where did they go? Where could they go? Why Israel of course. They were welcomed there, as opposed to the Palestinians who were held in limbo for political reasons where they still remain. Ed, I don't care what a person's reasons are for wanting me dead. If that person tries to fulfill this intention, I'll try to take him down without hesitation. It's called a human reaction. If the Arabs - particularly the Palestinians - were to lay down their arms they could get on with life and start to build stuff, but it's not in their nature. Read your bible. Me? I'm a highly imperfect Canadian who utterly detests dishonesty and hypocrisy and ignorance. Governments and the Oil Gang fit this description perfectly, so I really have no time for politics of any description... Like I said - part of the dream... If you want to have further discussions on this (or Sai Baba, or Reality), you may want to ask Steve K for my email address. P. - Original Message From: Edmund Storms [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sunday, June 8, 2008 11:41:28 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Oil Gang responds I don't like the situation either, Philip. However, when a nation has the oil we need, it is apparently easy to be nice. If not, we have to pay an even greater price for our principles. This is actually the way the world works these days. In the past, the US called the shots. Increasingly, the oil suppliers and China will call the shots. Get use to the idea, because it is only going to get worse. You should ask why such a situation was allowed to develop. These situations do not occur by accident. As for Israel, it is hard to choose words carefully and still be honest. The situation is not based on scientific logic, but on faith and religious belief. A significant number of people in the US believe that Israel was given to the Jews by God. These people have significant influence and they vote. Therefore, any criticism about how Israel behaves is unpopular, being called anti-Semitism. As a result, Israel can cause the US to do things that would otherwise be impossible if demanded by another country. History shows why is is true. Creation of the country displaced millions of Palestinians. These people were forced from their homes and land. This is a fact. As a result, these people and people in the surrounding countries have been and continue to be angry at the unfairness of this, regardless of the justification based on God's will. Nevertheless, the US has sided heavily in favor of Israel. Because the Palestinians do not have modern weapons, as supplied by the US to Israel, they fight with the only tools they have. The US labels this method terrorism, which it is. As a result, the situation is made more one sided and desperate. No body wins and the US is dragged deeper into the conflict. No matter which side you favor, this is the situation. The policies used in the past have clearly not worked no matter how correct you think them to be. The question is, what do you suggest we do now? Ed PHILIP WINESTONE wrote: I personally don't like the idea of playing nice with people whose greatest wish is to cut my throat. The leader of the greatest and most benevolent country in the world (I didn't say it was perfect) has to make nice to people who by their teachings precipitated the 9/11 disaster, and who incidentally benefit greatly in many ways, many of them most unpleasant, from current oil prices? Just a little
Re: [Vo]:Oil Gang responds
Howdy Vorts, Gosh, golly, gee folks, here we go again with the Jews and arabs. This time the wedge is oil. The USA uses oil like toilet paper and everybuddy knows wez intitled to it.. or we think we do. We have enough oil provided we turn off a few lights and live like I we did back in the '30's by riding bicycles. We ain't gonna cuz we are better and smarter than anyone else and besides, we deserve it.. ask any TV advertizing message. If we are getting into a middle east debate over some long term bar room argument, this feud over land goes back awhile. Ask any Palestinian lounging on the corner in Gaza and he'll correct you by stating .. don't call me a Pallestinian.. call me a Canaanite cuz we wuz here first. The fact that Abraham came to Canaan and bought his land fair and square ain't got nuthin to do with it. His kinfolks later bought up most of Manhatten Island if you notice who's name's on the title to you apartment. but.. that's why they call it political science at Yale.. where all the really smart US presidents learn how to practice their profession.. Now if we can just find out what their profession is.. Richard
Re: [Vo]:Oil Gang responds
From Philip (addressed to Edmund Storms): If you want to have further discussions on this (or Sai Baba, or Reality), you may want to ask Steve K for my email address. It's my understanding that when one joins the Vortex group they must assign a personal email address. Anyone on the vortex email list can privately email anyone who joins the group should they chose to carry on private deliberations. (I certainly have on occasion.) It's only when the vortex messages are subsequently posted to the Eskimo web site archive database that individual email addresses are expunged for security reasons. FWIW, in regards to your offer, if you had addressed me in the manner you just addressed Ed I know I would not be inclined to want to continue private discussions. Granted, Ed did ask you point blank to respond to his query, so you were perfectly within your right to express your opinions. Perhaps it's a matter of personal taste, where your comments stuck me more as a form of a lecture than perhaps was your actual intention. I know from personal experience that I learn very little listening to lectures I did not personally sign up for. It seems to me that if we look far enough back in history we would eventually find that no individual, no nation, is free from guilt. It is my hope that if more of us are willing to acknowledge the fact that we are not immune from our sense of outrage, perhaps enough of us can then step back from the automatic impulses to even the score. I'm convinced there are wise individuals on both sides of the fence who understand this. Unfortunately, emotions that evoke a sense of outrage are just too delicious for most of us to let go of for the moment. Outrage becomes an addiction. It demands to be constantly stoked. I have felt the addiction myself. No one is immune. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.Zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Oil Gang responds
Here's a good description of the history of Israel and Palestine, by a jewish author: http://takingaimradio.com/hhz/ The Hidden History of Zionism, By Ralph Schoenman On Sun, Jun 08, 2008 at 09:41:28PM -0600, Edmund Storms wrote: I don't like the situation either, Philip. However, when a nation has the oil we need, it is apparently easy to be nice. If not, we have to pay an even greater price for our principles. This is actually the way the world works these days. In the past, the US called the shots. Increasingly, the oil suppliers and China will call the shots. Get use to the idea, because it is only going to get worse. You should ask why such a situation was allowed to develop. These situations do not occur by accident. As for Israel, it is hard to choose words carefully and still be honest. The situation is not based on scientific logic, but on faith and religious belief. A significant number of people in the US believe that Israel was given to the Jews by God. These people have significant influence and they vote. Therefore, any criticism about how Israel behaves is unpopular, being called anti-Semitism. As a result, Israel can cause the US to do things that would otherwise be impossible if demanded by another country. History shows why is is true. Creation of the country displaced millions of Palestinians. These people were forced from their homes and land. This is a fact. As a result, these people and people in the surrounding countries have been and continue to be angry at the unfairness of this, regardless of the justification based on God's will. Nevertheless, the US has sided heavily in favor of Israel. Because the Palestinians do not have modern weapons, as supplied by the US to Israel, they fight with the only tools they have. The US labels this method terrorism, which it is. As a result, the situation is made more one sided and desperate. No body wins and the US is dragged deeper into the conflict. No matter which side you favor, this is the situation. The policies used in the past have clearly not worked no matter how correct you think them to be. The question is, what do you suggest we do now? Ed PHILIP WINESTONE wrote: I personally don't like the idea of playing nice with people whose greatest wish is to cut my throat. The leader of the greatest and most benevolent country in the world (I didn't say it was perfect) has to make nice to people who by their teachings precipitated the 9/11 disaster, and who incidentally benefit greatly in many ways, many of them most unpleasant, from current oil prices? Just a little strange to me. I'm no politician, but I do respect - as the Soviets did - a nation whose leaders make it perfectly clear what would happen if America were to be jeopardized. Not so with the Saudis. We make nice. As for supporting everything the Israeli government wants. Can you be a little more definitive? You say, ... the Bush gang is so incompetent and so under the domination of Israel... Perhaps you could reword this so that we could all understand (if we're interested, which I'm sure most people here aren't) exactly what this tiny nation in this tiny sliver of land (about the size of New Jersey) is using to dominate the most powerful nation in the world. I guess it could be Viagra... Whatever it is, I'd like some of this domination juice. Please choose you words a little more carefully if you can't offer scientific explanations. They're a dead giveaway... P. - Original Message From: Edmund Storms [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sunday, June 8, 2008 7:03:40 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Oil Gang responds Well, Philip, you did see Bush holding hands with the Saudi king. He was trying to get the Saudi to pump more oil, which they refused to do. However, I see no conflict with playing nice with the Saudi and supporting everything the Israeli government wants. One is done for money and the other is done for politics. Unfortunately, the two have now formed an explosive mixture. Ed
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R C Macaulay wrote: Howdy Vorts, Gosh, golly, gee folks, here we go again with the Jews and arabs. This time the wedge is oil. The USA uses oil like toilet paper and everybuddy knows wez intitled to it.. or we think we do. We have enough oil provided we turn off a few lights and live like I we did back in the '30's by riding bicycles. We ain't gonna cuz we are better and smarter than anyone else and besides, we deserve it.. ask any TV advertizing message. If we are getting into a middle east debate over some long term bar room argument, this feud over land goes back awhile. Ask any Palestinian lounging on the corner in Gaza and he'll correct you by stating .. don't call me a Pallestinian.. call me a Canaanite cuz we wuz here first. The fact that Abraham came to Canaan and bought his land fair and square ain't got nuthin to do with it. OK now this is 3500 year old history, so I hope we can discuss it in a little more depth while leaving our guns safely out of sight under the table, eh? To be blunt, if you want to do a title search on the land of Israel you need to start with Joshua, not Genesis, and the stories aren't very similar. Sure Abram (later Abraham) and his gang paid for the land they settled on when they *first* came to Canaan. But then the weather turned poor and they didn't want to just tough it out, so they pulled up stakes and moved to Egypt, apparently preferring to live under the thumb of the predecessors of Nasser to trying to scratch out a living in land which showed every sign of turning into a desert. Their neighbors, in contrast, apparently stayed put and just made do. Since the not-yet-Israelites just left without so much as handing the keys to the local Century -14 broker to put the homestead on the market, after a couple centuries went by their former property was legally considered abandoned and was taken over by the local government, in the form of the Philistines. (Under current U.S. law this typically happens a lot faster; property is considered abandoned after about 3 to 5 years depending on the state.) Subsequently, after deciding they didn't like living with Egyptians so much any more, Abraham's descendants moved back to Canaan. And this time they most certainly didn't buy back their abandoned land fair and square: Instead, under the warlord Joshua's ungentle patronage, they barged in, all guns (and trumpets) blazing, and nuked everybody and everything in their path. The rather astonishing destruction of the fortified city of Jericho is merely among the first of their exploits. This didn't endear the nascent nation of Israel to the locals, and doesn't seem to put the possession of the land of Israel on the firmest of legal footings. Oh, granted, God said it was theirs, so under God's law it's clear cut, but under international law it's rather hazier, I think; unlike God's law, international law doesn't technically recognize the principle of might makes right. But this is hopelessly off topic so I think I'd best shut up at this point. His kinfolks later bought up most of Manhatten Island if you notice who's name's on the title to you apartment. but.. that's why they call it political science at Yale.. where all the really smart US presidents learn how to practice their profession.. Now if we can just find out what their profession is.. Richard
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I like all that Steven... I do tend to lecture a little (perhaps a lot); just ask my wife... But it doesn't really matter if nobody is paying attention to the content - which is a human condition; we're too busy paying attention to what's going on inside our minds by way of reaction. C'est la vie. I particularly like what you say about looking back in history. This is absolutely correct. And what seems like a big mistake at any given time, can turn out to have wonderful consequences. Of course we don't know that at the time (just figure out what William the Conquerer was thinking as he was conquering)... We're not really in control of outcomes, although we think we are. See what I mean about my tending to lecture? P. - Original Message From: OrionWorks [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Monday, June 9, 2008 10:17:31 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Oil Gang responds From Philip (addressed to Edmund Storms): If you want to have further discussions on this (or Sai Baba, or Reality), you may want to ask Steve K for my email address. It's my understanding that when one joins the Vortex group they must assign a personal email address. Anyone on the vortex email list can privately email anyone who joins the group should they chose to carry on private deliberations. (I certainly have on occasion.) It's only when the vortex messages are subsequently posted to the Eskimo web site archive database that individual email addresses are expunged for security reasons. FWIW, in regards to your offer, if you had addressed me in the manner you just addressed Ed I know I would not be inclined to want to continue private discussions. Granted, Ed did ask you point blank to respond to his query, so you were perfectly within your right to express your opinions. Perhaps it's a matter of personal taste, where your comments stuck me more as a form of a lecture than perhaps was your actual intention. I know from personal experience that I learn very little listening to lectures I did not personally sign up for. It seems to me that if we look far enough back in history we would eventually find that no individual, no nation, is free from guilt. It is my hope that if more of us are willing to acknowledge the fact that we are not immune from our sense of outrage, perhaps enough of us can then step back from the automatic impulses to even the score. I'm convinced there are wise individuals on both sides of the fence who understand this. Unfortunately, emotions that evoke a sense of outrage are just too delicious for most of us to let go of for the moment. Outrage becomes an addiction. It demands to be constantly stoked. I have felt the addiction myself. No one is immune. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.Zazzle.com/orionworks
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Mark, I'm tired of these people... There's a Jewish guy called Norm Finkelstein who is both a holocaust denier and an Arab terrorist apologist (to say the least). Then there's my favourite, Noam Chomsky. Like they say, if there are ten Jews in a room, you'll get at least eleven opinions. Perhaps this writer should investigate and write about Arab plunder and conquest... but then again that's really dangerous; he could get seriously hurt - even killed. Far safer to write insane stuff about his fellow Jews. No fatwas in Judaism. About 2000 years ago, the best Jewish (I don't think they were called Jews then) fighters assembled in Jerusalem before taking on the Romans in one mother of all battles. Between arriving in Jerusalem and girding up their loins the Jewish fighters were so busy slaughtering each other, that they forgot their true purpose. Go figure. Of course, as we know the Romans won big time and renamed that bit of land Palestine just to rub it in (after the Philistines, the arch-enemy of Israel). The same situation is taking place as we speak. Ideology and ego have replaced common sense, and perhaps outmoded things like honesty and decency... So we get guys writing such stunningly intellectual books... and those who lap up their content. End of lecture P. - Original Message From: Mark S Bilk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Monday, June 9, 2008 10:32:25 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Oil Gang responds Here's a good description of the history of Israel and Palestine, by a jewish author: http://takingaimradio.com/hhz/ The Hidden History of Zionism, By Ralph Schoenman On Sun, Jun 08, 2008 at 09:41:28PM -0600, Edmund Storms wrote: I don't like the situation either, Philip. However, when a nation has the oil we need, it is apparently easy to be nice. If not, we have to pay an even greater price for our principles. This is actually the way the world works these days. In the past, the US called the shots. Increasingly, the oil suppliers and China will call the shots. Get use to the idea, because it is only going to get worse. You should ask why such a situation was allowed to develop. These situations do not occur by accident. As for Israel, it is hard to choose words carefully and still be honest. The situation is not based on scientific logic, but on faith and religious belief. A significant number of people in the US believe that Israel was given to the Jews by God. These people have significant influence and they vote. Therefore, any criticism about how Israel behaves is unpopular, being called anti-Semitism. As a result, Israel can cause the US to do things that would otherwise be impossible if demanded by another country. History shows why is is true. Creation of the country displaced millions of Palestinians. These people were forced from their homes and land. This is a fact. As a result, these people and people in the surrounding countries have been and continue to be angry at the unfairness of this, regardless of the justification based on God's will. Nevertheless, the US has sided heavily in favor of Israel. Because the Palestinians do not have modern weapons, as supplied by the US to Israel, they fight with the only tools they have. The US labels this method terrorism, which it is. As a result, the situation is made more one sided and desperate. No body wins and the US is dragged deeper into the conflict. No matter which side you favor, this is the situation. The policies used in the past have clearly not worked no matter how correct you think them to be. The question is, what do you suggest we do now? Ed PHILIP WINESTONE wrote: I personally don't like the idea of playing nice with people whose greatest wish is to cut my throat. The leader of the greatest and most benevolent country in the world (I didn't say it was perfect) has to make nice to people who by their teachings precipitated the 9/11 disaster, and who incidentally benefit greatly in many ways, many of them most unpleasant, from current oil prices? Just a little strange to me. I'm no politician, but I do respect - as the Soviets did - a nation whose leaders make it perfectly clear what would happen if America were to be jeopardized. Not so with the Saudis. We make nice. As for supporting everything the Israeli government wants. Can you be a little more definitive? You say, ... the Bush gang is so incompetent and so under the domination of Israel... Perhaps you could reword this so that we could all understand (if we're interested, which I'm sure most people here aren't) exactly what this tiny nation in this tiny sliver of land (about the size of New Jersey) is using to dominate the most powerful nation in the world. I guess it could be Viagra... Whatever it is, I'd like some of this domination juice. Please choose you words a little more carefully if you can't offer scientific
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I am an Arab. Hath not an Arab eyes? Hath not an Arab hands, organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions; fed with the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject to the same diseases, healed by the same means, warmed and cooled by the same winter and summer as a Jew? If you prick us do we not bleed? If you tickle us do we not laugh? If you poison us do we not die? Harry On 9/6/2008 5:21 PM, PHILIP WINESTONE wrote: The same situation is taking place as we speak. Ideology and ego have replaced common sense, and perhaps outmoded things like honesty and decency... So we get guys writing such stunningly intellectual books... and those who lap up their content. End of lecture P.
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Will S. wrote: . . . healed by the same means, warmed and cooled by the same winter and summer as a Jew? If you prick us do we not bleed? If you tickle us do we not laugh? If you poison us do we not die? You left out the best line! The last line, forever pertinent in the Middle East: And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? - Jed
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Not sure if you read some of the stuff I wrote; better still, read a history book or two. Find out the history of killing and pillage of the Arab. Ask any (Hindu) Indian about the Islamic invasion of India, wherein about 70 million people died. There is a difference between the perennial aggressor and the perennial defender, unless of course, you happen to be a moral equivalence type of person, where victim and aggressor are exactly the same... And - unless you're blind, deaf and dumb - they're still thirsting for your balls - on a plate. And they don't hold back when telling us this. They want a caliphate, wherein you'll be a second-class (at least) citizen. Now of course I'm generalizing, which is never good, but this is what's coming out openly from their leaders. Now if you like what they do and you like people telling you how to worship and whom to worship, and of course, when to worship, then you're their man. Go for it. P. - Original Message From: Harry Veeder [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Monday, June 9, 2008 8:11:37 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Oil Gang responds Re: [Vo]:Oil Gang responds I am an Arab. Hath not an Arab eyes? Hath not an Arab hands, organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions; fed with the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject to the same diseases, healed by the same means, warmed and cooled by the same winter and summer as a Jew? If you prick us do we not bleed? If you tickle us do we not laugh? If you poison us do we not die? Harry On 9/6/2008 5:21 PM, PHILIP WINESTONE wrote: The same situation is taking place as we speak. Ideology and ego have replaced common sense, and perhaps outmoded things like honesty and decency... So we get guys writing such stunningly intellectual books... and those who lap up their content. End of lecture P.
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You have a point, and personally I don't go for the God gave it to us stuff, because I can't prove it. But I have to ask you if you live in America, and how you feel about the white man coming in and taking over, and, if you feel bad about it - very bad about it - if you've ever considered moving back to the land of your ancestors... assuming your ancestors, for example, didn't come over to the UK with William the Conquerer. That poses new problems. People are where they are because it's where they are, as part of the dream. My approach is, live with it. go out, have a coffee and a bagel (or some nice organic bread) and get on with life. There's room enough for everyone, and everyone can make good, as long as they work for everything, and don't try to plunder what the next man has. You should read the Mahabharata; about the Pandavas and the Kauravas... Fun stuff (apologies to Richard). P. - Original Message From: Stephen A. Lawrence [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Monday, June 9, 2008 3:57:38 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Oil Gang responds R C Macaulay wrote: Howdy Vorts, Gosh, golly, gee folks, here we go again with the Jews and arabs. This time the wedge is oil. The USA uses oil like toilet paper and everybuddy knows wez intitled to it.. or we think we do. We have enough oil provided we turn off a few lights and live like I we did back in the '30's by riding bicycles. We ain't gonna cuz we are better and smarter than anyone else and besides, we deserve it.. ask any TV advertizing message. If we are getting into a middle east debate over some long term bar room argument, this feud over land goes back awhile. Ask any Palestinian lounging on the corner in Gaza and he'll correct you by stating .. don't call me a Pallestinian.. call me a Canaanite cuz we wuz here first. The fact that Abraham came to Canaan and bought his land fair and square ain't got nuthin to do with it. OK now this is 3500 year old history, so I hope we can discuss it in a little more depth while leaving our guns safely out of sight under the table, eh? To be blunt, if you want to do a title search on the land of Israel you need to start with Joshua, not Genesis, and the stories aren't very similar. Sure Abram (later Abraham) and his gang paid for the land they settled on when they *first* came to Canaan. But then the weather turned poor and they didn't want to just tough it out, so they pulled up stakes and moved to Egypt, apparently preferring to live under the thumb of the predecessors of Nasser to trying to scratch out a living in land which showed every sign of turning into a desert. Their neighbors, in contrast, apparently stayed put and just made do. Since the not-yet-Israelites just left without so much as handing the keys to the local Century -14 broker to put the homestead on the market, after a couple centuries went by their former property was legally considered abandoned and was taken over by the local government, in the form of the Philistines. (Under current U.S. law this typically happens a lot faster; property is considered abandoned after about 3 to 5 years depending on the state.) Subsequently, after deciding they didn't like living with Egyptians so much any more, Abraham's descendants moved back to Canaan. And this time they most certainly didn't buy back their abandoned land fair and square: Instead, under the warlord Joshua's ungentle patronage, they barged in, all guns (and trumpets) blazing, and nuked everybody and everything in their path. The rather astonishing destruction of the fortified city of Jericho is merely among the first of their exploits. This didn't endear the nascent nation of Israel to the locals, and doesn't seem to put the possession of the land of Israel on the firmest of legal footings. Oh, granted, God said it was theirs, so under God's law it's clear cut, but under international law it's rather hazier, I think; unlike God's law, international law doesn't technically recognize the principle of might makes right. But this is hopelessly off topic so I think I'd best shut up at this point. His kinfolks later bought up most of Manhatten Island if you notice who's name's on the title to you apartment. but.. that's why they call it political science at Yale.. where all the really smart US presidents learn how to practice their profession.. Now if we can just find out what their profession is.. Richard
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Philip sez: ... People are where they are because it's where they are, as part of the dream. My approach is, live with it. go out, have a coffee and a bagel (or some nice organic bread) and get on with life. There's room enough for everyone, and everyone can make good, as long as they work for everything, and don't try to plunder what the next man has. This strikes me as incredibly naive. And yet, it is precisely how I try to live my life each day. I often feel like I'm not very good at it - living up to this interpretation of the Golden Rule. It is nevertheless a worthy goal to strive towards each day, one day at a time. Perhaps in ten or twelve more lifetimes I'll get the hang of it. ;-) Baklava, anyone? Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
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Pay attention to the emerging news from Blacklight Power. An existing cell delivers 50 kW peak power and 753 kJ from a 5 gm charge of fuel. That energy will vaporize 8 oz. of water. An energy balance estimate from Mills says that a 1 gigawatt power plant would consume 1 liter H20 per second. Much, much work remains to be done to achieve that, but the time of the Oil Gang will pass. This will not solve the problems of human nature but the path of human future can be much better. Mike Carrell
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From Mike Carrell: Pay attention to the emerging news from Blacklight Power. An existing cell delivers 50 kW peak power and 753 kJ from a 5 gm charge of fuel. That energy will vaporize 8 oz. of water. An energy balance estimate from Mills says that a 1 gigawatt power plant would consume 1 liter H20 per second. Much, much work remains to be done to achieve that, but the time of the Oil Gang will pass. This will not solve the problems of human nature but the path of human future can be much better. Mike Carrell Sounds encouraging. I've got to ask the following questions cuz you known damned well know someone (or some concerned citizen's group) eventually will. The questions being: Goodness gracious me! How much of our planet's finite water resources are we permanently destroying in order to feed our global civilization's thirst for gigawatts of power? Won't our precious planet eventually shrivel up like a dried prune - turn into a vast Dune-like desert planet, or like Mars? And here's another gem I'm sure someone will eventually fret over: All that extra Oxygen that's being liberated into the atmosphere. Won't objects like cars and steel buildings begin to rust more quickly? Won't we experience deadlier forest fires due to the increased oxygen content that is likely to be belched into our atmosphere? You just KNOW someone is NOT going to be happy! Card carrying luddites are going to have a field day with this. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
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Exactly. P. - Original Message From: OrionWorks [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Monday, June 9, 2008 9:05:49 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Oil Gang responds Philip sez: ... People are where they are because it's where they are, as part of the dream. My approach is, live with it. go out, have a coffee and a bagel (or some nice organic bread) and get on with life. There's room enough for everyone, and everyone can make good, as long as they work for everything, and don't try to plunder what the next man has. This strikes me as incredibly naive. And yet, it is precisely how I try to live my life each day. I often feel like I'm not very good at it - living up to this interpretation of the Golden Rule. It is nevertheless a worthy goal to strive towards each day, one day at a time. Perhaps in ten or twelve more lifetimes I'll get the hang of it. ;-) Baklava, anyone? Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
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On 9/6/2008 7:29 PM, PHILIP WINESTONE wrote: Not sure if you read some of the stuff I wrote; better still, read a history book or two. Find out the history of killing and pillage of the Arab. Ask any (Hindu) Indian about the Islamic invasion of India, wherein about 70 million people died. There is a difference between the perennial aggressor and the perennial defender, unless of course, you happen to be a moral equivalence type of person, where victim and aggressor are exactly the same... Indeed they aren't the same...but the state of Israel also became an aggressor when it began occupying and building settlements in violation of UN resolutions. And - unless you're blind, deaf and dumb - they're still thirsting for your balls - on a plate. And they don't hold back when telling us this. They want a caliphate, wherein you'll be a second-class (at least) citizen. Yes such rhetoric is alarming, but this is not 1938 and they are not a military superpower like Germany was in 1938. I even heard a guy on TV Ontario's news show _The Agenda_ assert that the real target of is the Vatican so it should be the Italians who should take out Iranian nuclear facilities. He says you don't have to take his word for it, as it is all written into their religion. Now of course I'm generalizing, which is never good, but this is what's coming out openly from their leaders. Now if you like what they do and you like people telling you how to worship and whom to worship, and of course, when to worship, then you're their man. Go for it. Of course I don't go for it. Harry - Original Message From: Harry Veeder [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Monday, June 9, 2008 8:11:37 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Oil Gang responds Re: [Vo]:Oil Gang responds I am an Arab. Hath not an Arab eyes? Hath not an Arab hands, organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions; fed with the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject to the same diseases, healed by the same means, warmed and cooled by the same winter and summer as a Jew? If you prick us do we not bleed? If you tickle us do we not laugh? If you poison us do we not die? Harry On 9/6/2008 5:21 PM, PHILIP WINESTONE wrote: The same situation is taking place as we speak. Ideology and ego have replaced common sense, and perhaps outmoded things like honesty and decency... So we get guys writing such stunningly intellectual books... and those who lap up their content. End of lecture P.
[Vo]:Oil Gang responds
Ed Storms wrote on Sat, 24 May 2008: This approach has been applied repeatedly with the same outcome. For example, during the cold war, Russia made simple and cheap reactors that powered their satellites. We, on the other hand, tried to make a perfect reactor that totally failed. As a result, we were forced to use solar panels that even today make the satellites easy targets. These are the kinds of decisions that eventually lead to failure even though our arrogance make them look good at the time. You can see the same attitude being applied to the Iraq situation. We never learn. Hi Ed, The objective evidence is that our policy in Iraq has been an outstanding success from the view point of those in control of the U.S. government, namely the Oil Gang. In fact, the destruction of the Golden Mosque which started the Sunni - Shiite civil was classic imperial strategy: Divide et Impera. Previously I wrote The gangsters have taken another hit, and Admiral Fallon deserves the credit. Meanwhile, the oil glut is intensifying as the U. S. miltary has been able to nullify Bush's laughable sabre rattling, increasing the probability of $40 per barrel oil before the end of 2008. The terror premium could soon evaporate, and the price of oil could drop to $70 per barrel ovenight. What will the Oil Gang do about this? ... Well, now we know. Jack Smith -- http://www.pbs.org/nbr/site/onair/transcripts/080606b/ TRANSCRIPT fom The Nightly Business Report, 6-6-08 ``John Kilduff, Energy Analyst at MF Global Offers An Outlook on Oil SUZANNE PRATT: Joining me now to talk about that huge move in oil prices today is John Kilduff, energy analyst at MF Global. John, welcome back to the program. JOHN KILDUFF, SR. VP, ENERGY, MF GLOBAL: Thank you Suzanne. PRATT: So it was a crazy day in the energy market. Tell us what happened. KILDUFF: Well, it was really one for the record books. We had never been lock ... limit up. Futures rose as much as they possibly could today, and the commodity markets are still a little old-fashioned with our circuit breakers and we reacted strongly to several of the things that you've been speaking about in this broadcast so far. I think chief among them though was the shudder that was sent through the market from Israel and the comments from their transportation minister, who isn't just some transportation minister. This gentleman was a former defense minister, is seeking to succeed Ehud Olmert because of the scandal that's going on embroiling his administration, and he also made a comment that U.S. military had approved of this plan. [' Israel's Transportation Minister Shaul Mofaz told a newspaper that Iran faced airstrikes if it did not abandon its nuclear program.'] So the oil traders didn't really want to stick around too long to get the details on that. They just bought with both hands because of the potentialities that exist and the repercussions that would come from such an attack. PRATT: So is geopolitical risk now back on the table? It was sort of missing from the marketplace for a little while. KILDUFF: We were, for a while, really just dealing with the economics of everything. From the -- from watching the value of the dollar closely, watching interest rate moves very closely, even hanging each day on the various data points to see if the economy was slowing or not, which would dictate future energy demand and whether or not prices were justified at the ever-higher levels. But, yes, this brought the geopolitical worries front and center once again. PRATT: About a month ago I think I believe you were saying that you thought the top for oil prices would be somewhere in the $130s range. Now we're almost approaching $140. Are all bets off for you? What do you think? Where are we going in terms of prices? KILDUFF: We're at a crossroads. I have to say the bias is towards the upside still now. We had called for $138 to be the top and when we hit $135 at the end of May, we thought that it might have been over. A lot of things are certainly coming together to argue for that. The dollar had stabilized and was rebounding. Some of the economic data points were sufficiently down ... not the least of which was U.S. motorists driving about 6 percent less and diesel fuel consumption down about 8 percent. But now that is all out the window. I think you have to say it's going to go higher still before it can crack and go back lower. PRATT: So today we had Morgan Stanley analysts saying $150. Weight in on this. Where do you think we're going? KILDUFF: At this point obviously setting a new high. We are looking now at the next target is $142. You're going to need some help, some events of some import to get to that $150. The Israeli worry here today was one of those that needed to emerge. And, to be honest, to the extent that we see climb down from this by Israel and talking it down by the U.S. military, some of this worry could quickly come out of this market. So I think
Re: [Vo]:Oil Gang responds
Hi Jack, You are right. The oil gang has benefited from Iraq. However, this benefit is temporary, as I'm sure they must realize. Meanwhile, decisions have set in motion that will eventually lead to their demise as well as a situation that no one wants. For example, all kinds of oil saving technologies are in the pipeline. In addition, people are so pissed off they will put severe restrictions on the industry in the US. To make matters worse, if Israel has its way, the economic and political situation will get completely out of control. Meanwhile, China is developing its own oil sources independent of the jokers we deal with. Either the oil gang is totally incompetent or so totally corrupted by greed they are blind to the long term consequences of their actions. The third possibility, which I favor, is that the Bush gang is so incompetent and so under the domination of Israel that they created a situation that even the oil gang is pissed off about. Ed Taylor J. Smith wrote: Ed Storms wrote on Sat, 24 May 2008: This approach has been applied repeatedly with the same outcome. For example, during the cold war, Russia made simple and cheap reactors that powered their satellites. We, on the other hand, tried to make a perfect reactor that totally failed. As a result, we were forced to use solar panels that even today make the satellites easy targets. These are the kinds of decisions that eventually lead to failure even though our arrogance make them look good at the time. You can see the same attitude being applied to the Iraq situation. We never learn. Hi Ed, The objective evidence is that our policy in Iraq has been an outstanding success from the view point of those in control of the U.S. government, namely the Oil Gang. In fact, the destruction of the Golden Mosque which started the Sunni - Shiite civil was classic imperial strategy: Divide et Impera. Previously I wrote The gangsters have taken another hit, and Admiral Fallon deserves the credit. Meanwhile, the oil glut is intensifying as the U. S. miltary has been able to nullify Bush's laughable sabre rattling, increasing the probability of $40 per barrel oil before the end of 2008. The terror premium could soon evaporate, and the price of oil could drop to $70 per barrel ovenight. What will the Oil Gang do about this? ... Well, now we know. Jack Smith -- http://www.pbs.org/nbr/site/onair/transcripts/080606b/ TRANSCRIPT fom The Nightly Business Report, 6-6-08 ``John Kilduff, Energy Analyst at MF Global Offers An Outlook on Oil SUZANNE PRATT: Joining me now to talk about that huge move in oil prices today is John Kilduff, energy analyst at MF Global. John, welcome back to the program. JOHN KILDUFF, SR. VP, ENERGY, MF GLOBAL: Thank you Suzanne. PRATT: So it was a crazy day in the energy market. Tell us what happened. KILDUFF: Well, it was really one for the record books. We had never been lock ... limit up. Futures rose as much as they possibly could today, and the commodity markets are still a little old-fashioned with our circuit breakers and we reacted strongly to several of the things that you've been speaking about in this broadcast so far. I think chief among them though was the shudder that was sent through the market from Israel and the comments from their transportation minister, who isn't just some transportation minister. This gentleman was a former defense minister, is seeking to succeed Ehud Olmert because of the scandal that's going on embroiling his administration, and he also made a comment that U.S. military had approved of this plan. [' Israel's Transportation Minister Shaul Mofaz told a newspaper that Iran faced airstrikes if it did not abandon its nuclear program.'] So the oil traders didn't really want to stick around too long to get the details on that. They just bought with both hands because of the potentialities that exist and the repercussions that would come from such an attack. PRATT: So is geopolitical risk now back on the table? It was sort of missing from the marketplace for a little while. KILDUFF: We were, for a while, really just dealing with the economics of everything. From the -- from watching the value of the dollar closely, watching interest rate moves very closely, even hanging each day on the various data points to see if the economy was slowing or not, which would dictate future energy demand and whether or not prices were justified at the ever-higher levels. But, yes, this brought the geopolitical worries front and center once again. PRATT: About a month ago I think I believe you were saying that you thought the top for oil prices would be somewhere in the $130s range. Now we're almost approaching $140. Are all bets off for you? What do you think? Where are we going in terms of prices? KILDUFF: We're at a crossroads. I have to say the bias is towards the upside still now. We had called for $138 to be the top and when we hit $135 at the end of May, we
Re: [Vo]:Oil Gang responds
That's funny Ed, I thought I saw President Bush holding hands with a Saudi person some time ago, and I heard that his dad was fundamentally owned by a bunch of these Saudi people all controlling the world's oil flows. I must have been either mistaken or blind... These must have been Mossad agents in disguise... Silly me for not immediately seeing that... P. - Original Message From: Edmund Storms [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sunday, June 8, 2008 11:40:17 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Oil Gang responds Hi Jack, You are right. The oil gang has benefited from Iraq. However, this benefit is temporary, as I'm sure they must realize. Meanwhile, decisions have set in motion that will eventually lead to their demise as well as a situation that no one wants. For example, all kinds of oil saving technologies are in the pipeline. In addition, people are so pissed off they will put severe restrictions on the industry in the US. To make matters worse, if Israel has its way, the economic and political situation will get completely out of control. Meanwhile, China is developing its own oil sources independent of the jokers we deal with. Either the oil gang is totally incompetent or so totally corrupted by greed they are blind to the long term consequences of their actions. The third possibility, which I favor, is that the Bush gang is so incompetent and so under the domination of Israel that they created a situation that even the oil gang is pissed off about. Ed Taylor J. Smith wrote: Ed Storms wrote on Sat, 24 May 2008: This approach has been applied repeatedly with the same outcome. For example, during the cold war, Russia made simple and cheap reactors that powered their satellites. We, on the other hand, tried to make a perfect reactor that totally failed. As a result, we were forced to use solar panels that even today make the satellites easy targets. These are the kinds of decisions that eventually lead to failure even though our arrogance make them look good at the time. You can see the same attitude being applied to the Iraq situation. We never learn. Hi Ed, The objective evidence is that our policy in Iraq has been an outstanding success from the view point of those in control of the U.S. government, namely the Oil Gang. In fact, the destruction of the Golden Mosque which started the Sunni - Shiite civil was classic imperial strategy: Divide et Impera. Previously I wrote The gangsters have taken another hit, and Admiral Fallon deserves the credit. Meanwhile, the oil glut is intensifying as the U. S. miltary has been able to nullify Bush's laughable sabre rattling, increasing the probability of $40 per barrel oil before the end of 2008. The terror premium could soon evaporate, and the price of oil could drop to $70 per barrel ovenight. What will the Oil Gang do about this? ... Well, now we know. Jack Smith -- http://www.pbs.org/nbr/site/onair/transcripts/080606b/ TRANSCRIPT fom The Nightly Business Report, 6-6-08 ``John Kilduff, Energy Analyst at MF Global Offers An Outlook on Oil SUZANNE PRATT: Joining me now to talk about that huge move in oil prices today is John Kilduff, energy analyst at MF Global. John, welcome back to the program. JOHN KILDUFF, SR. VP, ENERGY, MF GLOBAL: Thank you Suzanne. PRATT: So it was a crazy day in the energy market. Tell us what happened. KILDUFF: Well, it was really one for the record books. We had never been lock ... limit up. Futures rose as much as they possibly could today, and the commodity markets are still a little old-fashioned with our circuit breakers and we reacted strongly to several of the things that you've been speaking about in this broadcast so far. I think chief among them though was the shudder that was sent through the market from Israel and the comments from their transportation minister, who isn't just some transportation minister. This gentleman was a former defense minister, is seeking to succeed Ehud Olmert because of the scandal that's going on embroiling his administration, and he also made a comment that U.S. military had approved of this plan. [' Israel's Transportation Minister Shaul Mofaz told a newspaper that Iran faced airstrikes if it did not abandon its nuclear program.'] So the oil traders didn't really want to stick around too long to get the details on that. They just bought with both hands because of the potentialities that exist and the repercussions that would come from such an attack. PRATT: So is geopolitical risk now back on the table? It was sort of missing from the marketplace for a little while. KILDUFF: We were, for a while, really just dealing with the economics of everything. From the -- from watching the value of the dollar closely, watching interest rate moves very closely, even hanging each day on the various data points to see if the economy was slowing
Re: [Vo]:Oil Gang responds
Edmund Storms wrote: The third possibility, which I favor, is that the Bush gang is so incompetent and so under the domination of Israel . . . That is outrageous anti-Semitic crap. The Bush administration has done more to harm Israel than any other in U.S. history. I will grant they did not mean to harm Israel, but they didn't mean to harm the U.S. either, or for that matter the people of Iraq either. Claiming they are dominated by Israel makes about as much sense as claiming they are dominated by the Iraqi people and politicians. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Oil Gang responds
Jed, you have bought into the logic that Israel can not be criticized without being anti-Semitic. In fact, even many Jews are unhappy by the policies of Israel. Critiquing the policy of Israel is no more being anti-Semitic than critiquing Bush is being anti-American. As for the US harming Israel, we have supported them against the Palestinians in every way, including supporting their policies and giving them money and arms. As is obvious to any thinking person, the conflict will not be resolved by a one sided approach, which the Bush administration especially has supported. Other administrations tried a more balanced approach, but were frustrated by the unwillingness of both sides to compromise. When I say the Bush administration is dominated by the policies of Israel, I'm saying Bush is taking a one side position to the conflict. Of course, this is not in the interest of Israel, but that is what the Israeli government wants. Now they want us to bomb Iran because they fear the wrath of their neighbors, thanks to their policies. Meanwhile, the US has needs and interests that do not involve Israel, many of which are being jeopardized by our focus on following the fears of the Israeli government. Why can these issues be debated without emotion and the use of anti-Semitism? Ed Jed Rothwell wrote: Edmund Storms wrote: The third possibility, which I favor, is that the Bush gang is so incompetent and so under the domination of Israel . . . That is outrageous anti-Semitic crap. The Bush administration has done more to harm Israel than any other in U.S. history. I will grant they did not mean to harm Israel, but they didn't mean to harm the U.S. either, or for that matter the people of Iraq either. Claiming they are dominated by Israel makes about as much sense as claiming they are dominated by the Iraqi people and politicians. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Oil Gang responds
Well, Philip, you did see Bush holding hands with the Saudi king. He was trying to get the Saudi to pump more oil, which they refused to do. However, I see no conflict with playing nice with the Saudi and supporting everything the Israeli government wants. One is done for money and the other is done for politics. Unfortunately, the two have now formed an explosive mixture. Ed PHILIP WINESTONE wrote: That's funny Ed, I thought I saw President Bush holding hands with a Saudi person some time ago, and I heard that his dad was fundamentally owned by a bunch of these Saudi people all controlling the world's oil flows. I must have been either mistaken or blind... These must have been Mossad agents in disguise... Silly me for not immediately seeing that... P. - Original Message From: Edmund Storms [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sunday, June 8, 2008 11:40:17 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Oil Gang responds Hi Jack, You are right. The oil gang has benefited from Iraq. However, this benefit is temporary, as I'm sure they must realize. Meanwhile, decisions have set in motion that will eventually lead to their demise as well as a situation that no one wants. For example, all kinds of oil saving technologies are in the pipeline. In addition, people are so pissed off they will put severe restrictions on the industry in the US. To make matters worse, if Israel has its way, the economic and political situation will get completely out of control. Meanwhile, China is developing its own oil sources independent of the jokers we deal with. Either the oil gang is totally incompetent or so totally corrupted by greed they are blind to the long term consequences of their actions. The third possibility, which I favor, is that the Bush gang is so incompetent and so under the domination of Israel that they created a situation that even the oil gang is pissed off about. Ed Taylor J. Smith wrote: Ed Storms wrote on Sat, 24 May 2008: This approach has been applied repeatedly with the same outcome. For example, during the cold war, Russia made simple and cheap reactors that powered their satellites. We, on the other hand, tried to make a perfect reactor that totally failed. As a result, we were forced to use solar panels that even today make the satellites easy targets. These are the kinds of decisions that eventually lead to failure even though our arrogance make them look good at the time. You can see the same attitude being applied to the Iraq situation. We never learn. Hi Ed, The objective evidence is that our policy in Iraq has been an outstanding success from the view point of those in control of the U.S. government, namely the Oil Gang. In fact, the destruction of the Golden Mosque which started the Sunni - Shiite civil was classic imperial strategy: Divide et Impera. Previously I wrote The gangsters have taken another hit, and Admiral Fallon deserves the credit. Meanwhile, the oil glut is intensifying as the U. S. miltary has been able to nullify Bush's laughable sabre rattling, increasing the probability of $40 per barrel oil before the end of 2008. The terror premium could soon evaporate, and the price of oil could drop to $70 per barrel ovenight. What will the Oil Gang do about this? ... Well, now we know. Jack Smith -- http://www.pbs.org/nbr/site/onair/transcripts/080606b/ TRANSCRIPT fom The Nightly Business Report, 6-6-08 ``John Kilduff, Energy Analyst at MF Global Offers An Outlook on Oil SUZANNE PRATT: Joining me now to talk about that huge move in oil prices today is John Kilduff, energy analyst at MF Global. John, welcome back to the program. JOHN KILDUFF, SR. VP, ENERGY, MF GLOBAL: Thank you Suzanne. PRATT: So it was a crazy day in the energy market. Tell us what happened. KILDUFF: Well, it was really one for the record books. We had never been lock ... limit up. Futures rose as much as they possibly could today, and the commodity markets are still a little old-fashioned with our circuit breakers and we reacted strongly to several of the things that you've been speaking about in this broadcast so far. I think chief among them though was the shudder that was sent through the market from Israel and the comments from their transportation minister, who isn't just some transportation minister. This gentleman was a former defense minister, is seeking to succeed Ehud Olmert because of the scandal that's going on embroiling his administration, and he also made a comment that U.S. military had approved of this plan. [' Israel's Transportation Minister Shaul Mofaz told a newspaper that Iran faced airstrikes if it did not abandon its nuclear program.'] So the oil traders didn't really want to stick around too long to get the details on that. They just bought with both hands because of the potentialities that exist
Re: [Vo]:Oil Gang responds
Philip recently sed: I thought I saw President Bush holding hands with a Saudi person some time ago, ... and ed recently sed: Well, Philip, you did see Bush holding hands with the Saudi king. He was trying to get the Saudi to pump more oil, which they refused to do. However, I see no conflict with playing nice with the Saudi and supporting everything the Israeli government wants. One is done for money and the other is done for politics. Unfortunately, the two have now formed an explosive mixture. While I'm no fan of the shrub I suspect one of Bush's advisers informed him of the Saudi custom than men held each other's hands in public. http://teachsaudi.50webs.com/culture.htm * Saudi men often greet each other with kisses, but Saudi men usually just shake hands with foreign men unless they are close friends. * The opposite sexes should never kiss in public. * Men sometimes hold hands with each other in Saudi Arabia (although not with women in public). Holding hands with another man is a sign of friendship, with no sexual connotations. * Foreign men may feel uncomfortable when another man grips their hand, but it would be insensitive to prematurely withdraw from the contact. * On the other hand, Western couples should avoid any physical contact with each other in public. You may see very modern-minded Saudi couples holding hands, but don't imitate them. * * * Of course, not everyone has interpreted Bush's recent hand holding gesture as a benign gesture: http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/363995_kelsoonline22.html Personal thought: How ironic that countries so apparently open about the custom of same sexes holding each other's hand in public without feeling it is a sexual advance are nevertheless terrified of the opposite sex, or worse, terrified of the notion of being sexually attracted to a person of the same sex. Go figure. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Oil Gang responds
I personally don't like the idea of playing nice with people whose greatest wish is to cut my throat. The leader of the greatest and most benevolent country in the world (I didn't say it was perfect) has to make nice to people who by their teachings precipitated the 9/11 disaster, and who incidentally benefit greatly in many ways, many of them most unpleasant, from current oil prices? Just a little strange to me. I'm no politician, but I do respect - as the Soviets did - a nation whose leaders make it perfectly clear what would happen if America were to be jeopardized. Not so with the Saudis. We make nice. As for supporting everything the Israeli government wants. Can you be a little more definitive? You say, ... the Bush gang is so incompetent and so under the domination of Israel... Perhaps you could reword this so that we could all understand (if we're interested, which I'm sure most people here aren't) exactly what this tiny nation in this tiny sliver of land (about the size of New Jersey) is using to dominate the most powerful nation in the world. I guess it could be Viagra... Whatever it is, I'd like some of this domination juice. Please choose you words a little more carefully if you can't offer scientific explanations. They're a dead giveaway... P. - Original Message From: Edmund Storms [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sunday, June 8, 2008 7:03:40 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Oil Gang responds Well, Philip, you did see Bush holding hands with the Saudi king. He was trying to get the Saudi to pump more oil, which they refused to do. However, I see no conflict with playing nice with the Saudi and supporting everything the Israeli government wants. One is done for money and the other is done for politics. Unfortunately, the two have now formed an explosive mixture. Ed PHILIP WINESTONE wrote: That's funny Ed, I thought I saw President Bush holding hands with a Saudi person some time ago, and I heard that his dad was fundamentally owned by a bunch of these Saudi people all controlling the world's oil flows. I must have been either mistaken or blind... These must have been Mossad agents in disguise... Silly me for not immediately seeing that... P. - Original Message From: Edmund Storms [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sunday, June 8, 2008 11:40:17 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Oil Gang responds Hi Jack, You are right. The oil gang has benefited from Iraq. However, this benefit is temporary, as I'm sure they must realize. Meanwhile, decisions have set in motion that will eventually lead to their demise as well as a situation that no one wants. For example, all kinds of oil saving technologies are in the pipeline. In addition, people are so pissed off they will put severe restrictions on the industry in the US. To make matters worse, if Israel has its way, the economic and political situation will get completely out of control. Meanwhile, China is developing its own oil sources independent of the jokers we deal with. Either the oil gang is totally incompetent or so totally corrupted by greed they are blind to the long term consequences of their actions. The third possibility, which I favor, is that the Bush gang is so incompetent and so under the domination of Israel that they created a situation that even the oil gang is pissed off about. Ed Taylor J. Smith wrote: Ed Storms wrote on Sat, 24 May 2008: This approach has been applied repeatedly with the same outcome. For example, during the cold war, Russia made simple and cheap reactors that powered their satellites. We, on the other hand, tried to make a perfect reactor that totally failed. As a result, we were forced to use solar panels that even today make the satellites easy targets. These are the kinds of decisions that eventually lead to failure even though our arrogance make them look good at the time. You can see the same attitude being applied to the Iraq situation. We never learn. Hi Ed, The objective evidence is that our policy in Iraq has been an outstanding success from the view point of those in control of the U.S. government, namely the Oil Gang. In fact, the destruction of the Golden Mosque which started the Sunni - Shiite civil was classic imperial strategy: Divide et Impera. Previously I wrote The gangsters have taken another hit, and Admiral Fallon deserves the credit. Meanwhile, the oil glut is intensifying as the U. S. miltary has been able to nullify Bush's laughable sabre rattling, increasing the probability of $40 per barrel oil before the end of 2008. The terror premium could soon evaporate, and the price of oil could drop to $70 per barrel ovenight. What will the Oil Gang do about this? ... Well, now we know. Jack Smith -- http://www.pbs.org/nbr/site/onair/transcripts
Re: [Vo]:Oil Gang responds
Steven, I can understand. I was in Pakistan a few years ago doing engineering work (fortunately I wasn't a journalist), and I saw many men holding hands. S'OK... as kids we all held our fathers' hands... However - and I don't want to read too much into this - this was done in America, in the public eye, and American ways are different. There seems to be a definite chumminess, which under other circumstances is perfectly ok. P. - Original Message From: OrionWorks [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sunday, June 8, 2008 7:40:47 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Oil Gang responds Philip recently sed: I thought I saw President Bush holding hands with a Saudi person some time ago, ... and ed recently sed: Well, Philip, you did see Bush holding hands with the Saudi king. He was trying to get the Saudi to pump more oil, which they refused to do. However, I see no conflict with playing nice with the Saudi and supporting everything the Israeli government wants. One is done for money and the other is done for politics. Unfortunately, the two have now formed an explosive mixture. While I'm no fan of the shrub I suspect one of Bush's advisers informed him of the Saudi custom than men held each other's hands in public. http://teachsaudi.50webs.com/culture.htm * Saudi men often greet each other with kisses, but Saudi men usually just shake hands with foreign men unless they are close friends. * The opposite sexes should never kiss in public. * Men sometimes hold hands with each other in Saudi Arabia (although not with women in public). Holding hands with another man is a sign of friendship, with no sexual connotations. * Foreign men may feel uncomfortable when another man grips their hand, but it would be insensitive to prematurely withdraw from the contact. * On the other hand, Western couples should avoid any physical contact with each other in public. You may see very modern-minded Saudi couples holding hands, but don't imitate them. * * * Of course, not everyone has interpreted Bush's recent hand holding gesture as a benign gesture: http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/363995_kelsoonline22.html Personal thought: How ironic that countries so apparently open about the custom of same sexes holding each other's hand in public without feeling it is a sexual advance are nevertheless terrified of the opposite sex, or worse, terrified of the notion of being sexually attracted to a person of the same sex. Go figure. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Oil Gang responds
I don't like the situation either, Philip. However, when a nation has the oil we need, it is apparently easy to be nice. If not, we have to pay an even greater price for our principles. This is actually the way the world works these days. In the past, the US called the shots. Increasingly, the oil suppliers and China will call the shots. Get use to the idea, because it is only going to get worse. You should ask why such a situation was allowed to develop. These situations do not occur by accident. As for Israel, it is hard to choose words carefully and still be honest. The situation is not based on scientific logic, but on faith and religious belief. A significant number of people in the US believe that Israel was given to the Jews by God. These people have significant influence and they vote. Therefore, any criticism about how Israel behaves is unpopular, being called anti-Semitism. As a result, Israel can cause the US to do things that would otherwise be impossible if demanded by another country. History shows why is is true. Creation of the country displaced millions of Palestinians. These people were forced from their homes and land. This is a fact. As a result, these people and people in the surrounding countries have been and continue to be angry at the unfairness of this, regardless of the justification based on God's will. Nevertheless, the US has sided heavily in favor of Israel. Because the Palestinians do not have modern weapons, as supplied by the US to Israel, they fight with the only tools they have. The US labels this method terrorism, which it is. As a result, the situation is made more one sided and desperate. No body wins and the US is dragged deeper into the conflict. No matter which side you favor, this is the situation. The policies used in the past have clearly not worked no matter how correct you think them to be. The question is, what do you suggest we do now? Ed PHILIP WINESTONE wrote: I personally don't like the idea of playing nice with people whose greatest wish is to cut my throat. The leader of the greatest and most benevolent country in the world (I didn't say it was perfect) has to make nice to people who by their teachings precipitated the 9/11 disaster, and who incidentally benefit greatly in many ways, many of them most unpleasant, from current oil prices? Just a little strange to me. I'm no politician, but I do respect - as the Soviets did - a nation whose leaders make it perfectly clear what would happen if America were to be jeopardized. Not so with the Saudis. We make nice. As for supporting everything the Israeli government wants. Can you be a little more definitive? You say, ... the Bush gang is so incompetent and so under the domination of Israel... Perhaps you could reword this so that we could all understand (if we're interested, which I'm sure most people here aren't) exactly what this tiny nation in this tiny sliver of land (about the size of New Jersey) is using to dominate the most powerful nation in the world. I guess it could be Viagra... Whatever it is, I'd like some of this domination juice. Please choose you words a little more carefully if you can't offer scientific explanations. They're a dead giveaway... P. - Original Message From: Edmund Storms [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sunday, June 8, 2008 7:03:40 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Oil Gang responds Well, Philip, you did see Bush holding hands with the Saudi king. He was trying to get the Saudi to pump more oil, which they refused to do. However, I see no conflict with playing nice with the Saudi and supporting everything the Israeli government wants. One is done for money and the other is done for politics. Unfortunately, the two have now formed an explosive mixture. Ed PHILIP WINESTONE wrote: That's funny Ed, I thought I saw President Bush holding hands with a Saudi person some time ago, and I heard that his dad was fundamentally owned by a bunch of these Saudi people all controlling the world's oil flows. I must have been either mistaken or blind... These must have been Mossad agents in disguise... Silly me for not immediately seeing that... P. - Original Message From: Edmund Storms [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sunday, June 8, 2008 11:40:17 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Oil Gang responds Hi Jack, You are right. The oil gang has benefited from Iraq. However, this benefit is temporary, as I'm sure they must realize. Meanwhile, decisions have set in motion that will eventually lead to their demise as well as a situation that no one wants. For example, all kinds of oil saving technologies are in the pipeline. In addition, people are so pissed off they will put severe restrictions on the industry in the US. To make matters worse, if Israel has its way, the economic and political
