RE: [Zen] Perhaps
JMJM and Bill: Sorry to intrude between your both interesting conversation but I'd like to contribute to it too: The way I experience Just This is that the form and the non form interbeing with each other. I would disagree with Bill here saying that excludes de form. The form takes part of the experience of Just This. Just This is in continuous motion. It's the now travelling in the now. eg; I have a big nice peach in my two hands. Peach=Form Hands=Form I look at it (I use my eyes to look at it. Eyes=Form). I bring the peach to my lips (movement=Form, Lips=Form) Hmmm...what a pleasant smell (smell=form, thought=Form) and etc. What it happens with just this is that there is no attachment to the motion and all sensations, thoughts, images etc etc. Another example will be the clap of a hand. Sound=Form Hand=Form The form and the non form are not separated from each other. They're one. The form is in the non form and the non form is in the form. Even the Prajnaparamita Sutra can confirm this: ...Emptiness is form, form is emptiness Mayka --- On Wed, 24/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Perhaps To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 24 November, 2010, 4:10 JMJM, I think what you expressed in the attached email is essentially correct. I do use 'Just THIS!' to express emptiness, and the absence of forms. I have always assumed that when I use the term ‘illusions’ or ‘concepts’ it is the same as your use of the word ‘form’. I don’t reject or completely ignore forms, in fact I use them all the time. I’m using them right now. I’ve always said that my zen practice involves learning to properly integrate forms into my life while maintaining the knowledge that they are forms - illusions and impermanent - without substance. 'Just THIS!' does not include forms. I think you would call it 'emptiness'. However my attempt at communicating 'Just THIS!' or emptiness when using a text-based media like this involves the use of forms - like words I type of 'Just THIS!'. Saying 'Just THIS!' is a little different in that it only involves creating a sound, and you only experience a sound. That's all there is to that. If you (or I) go on to create a concept or a definition or try to 'understand' the sound 'Just THIS!', then we are creating a concept to explain the sound - which is the same as saying we create a form to superimpose on emptiness. Sometimes this seems necessary and I do that all the time. So do we all. Does this seem to correspond more closely with Chan teachings? Thanks...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jue Miao Jing Ming - Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 12:56 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Zen] Perhaps Hi Bill, You stated that Shigantaza is just this. If just this is indeed Shigantaza, as you stated, now I would understand finally why you channel most postings to just this as the singular truth and others as illusory. For us to communicate better, I like to clarify some of the terms that we use. I believe that your illusory is equate to my form. If so, then just this, or clear mind, is not as is, as per our previous discussion. As is in my posts includes everything. It includes all the forms, as well as clear mind and a heart with harmonious intentions. In other words, as is includes both illusions and clear mind of yours, plus pure heart without other impulses. You are separating Just this from all illusions, which is not wrong, while we teach to accept all forms as well as maintaining a clear mind and a pure heart. Pure heart in our our school also means originally embedded with compassion or harmonious intentions. For us to live an enlightened life, accept/fulfill/consummate every form, or illusion, is a required condition, which is why we need pana/wisdom as well as maintaining a clear mind without judgment in addition to pure heart without various impulses, or without karmic influence. These are the basis often for me to say ALL. All includes the life force and wisdom of the universal essence as well as all the transient, relative and impermanent forms. Then we are whole and complete. Otherwise, we are still practicing a incomplete practice. JMJM -- Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5643 (20101123) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5643 (20101123) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
RE: [Zen] Perhaps
an enlightened life, accept/fulfill/consummate every form, or illusion, is a required condition, which is why we need pana/wisdom as well as maintaining a clear mind without judgment in addition to pure heart without various impulses, or without karmic influence. These are the basis often for me to say ALL. All includes the life force and wisdom of the universal essence as well as all the transient, relative and impermanent forms. Then we are whole and complete. Otherwise, we are still practicing a incomplete practice. JMJM -- Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5643 (20101123) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5643 (20101123) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5644 (20101124) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5644 (20101124) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5644 (20101124) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Zen] Perhaps
there is to that. If you (or I) go on to create a concept or a definition or try to 'understand' the sound 'Just THIS!', then we are creating a concept to explain the sound - which is the same as saying we create a form to superimpose on emptiness. Sometimes this seems necessary and I do that all the time. So do we all. Does this seem to correspond more closely with Chan teachings? Thanks...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jue Miao Jing Ming - Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 12:56 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Zen] Perhaps Hi Bill, You stated that Shigantaza is just this. If just this is indeed Shigantaza, as you stated, now I would understand finally why you channel most postings to just this as the singular truth and others as illusory. For us to communicate better, I like to clarify some of the terms that we use. I believe that your illusory is equate to my form. If so, then just this, or clear mind, is not as is, as per our previous discussion. As is in my posts includes everything. It includes all the forms, as well as clear mind and a heart with harmonious intentions. In other words, as is includes both illusions and clear mind of yours, plus pure heart without other impulses. You are separating Just this from all illusions, which is not wrong, while we teach to accept all forms as well as maintaining a clear mind and a pure heart. Pure heart in our our school also means originally embedded with compassion or harmonious intentions. For us to live an enlightened life, accept/fulfill/consummate every form, or illusion, is a required condition, which is why we need pana/wisdom as well as maintaining a clear mind without judgment in addition to pure heart without various impulses, or without karmic influence. These are the basis often for me to say ALL. All includes the life force and wisdom of the universal essence as well as all the transient, relative and impermanent forms. Then we are whole and complete. Otherwise, we are still practicing a incomplete practice. JMJM -- Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5643 (20101123) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5643 (20101123) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5644 (20101124) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5644 (20101124) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5644 (20101124) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
Re: [Zen] Perhaps
THIS!' does not include forms. I think you would call it 'emptiness'. However my attempt at communicating 'Just THIS!' or emptiness when using a text-based media like this involves the use of forms - like words I type of 'Just THIS!'. Saying 'Just THIS!' is a little different in that it only involves creating a sound, and you only experience a sound. That's all there is to that. If you (or I) go on to create a concept or a definition or try to 'understand' the sound 'Just THIS!', then we are creating a concept to explain the sound - which is the same as saying we create a form to superimpose on emptiness. Sometimes this seems necessary and I do that all the time. So do we all. Does this seem to correspond more closely with Chan teachings? Thanks...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jue Miao Jing Ming - Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 12:56 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Zen] Perhaps Hi Bill, You stated that Shigantaza is just this. If just this is indeed Shigantaza, as you stated, now I would understand finally why you channel most postings to just this as the singular truth and others as illusory. For us to communicate better, I like to clarify some of the terms that we use. I believe that your illusory is equate to my form. If so, then just this, or clear mind, is not as is, as per our previous discussion. As is in my posts includes everything. It includes all the forms, as well as clear mind and a heart with harmonious intentions. In other words, as is includes both illusions and clear mind of yours, plus pure heart without other impulses. You are separating Just this from all illusions, which is not wrong, while we teach to accept all forms as well as maintaining a clear mind and a pure heart. Pure heart in our our school also means originally embedded with compassion or harmonious intentions. For us to live an enlightened life, accept/fulfill/consummate every form, or illusion, is a required condition, which is why we need pana/wisdom as well as maintaining a clear mind without judgment in addition to pure heart without various impulses, or without karmic influence. These are the basis often for me to say ALL. All includes the life force and wisdom of the universal essence as well as all the transient, relative and impermanent forms. Then we are whole and complete. Otherwise, we are still practicing a incomplete practice. JMJM -- Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5643 (20101123)__ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5643 (20101123)__ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5644 (20101124)__ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5644 (20101124)__ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5644 (20101124)__ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
Re: [Zen] Perhaps
, in fact I use them all the time. I’m using them right now. I’ve always said that my zen practice involves learning to properly integrate forms into my life while maintaining the knowledge that they are forms - illusions and impermanent - without substance. 'Just THIS!' does not include forms. I think you would call it 'emptiness'. However my attempt at communicating 'Just THIS!' or emptiness when using a text-based media like this involves the use of forms - like words I type of 'Just THIS!'. Saying 'Just THIS!' is a little different in that it only involves creating a sound, and you only experience a sound. That's all there is to that. If you (or I) go on to create a concept or a definition or try to 'understand' the sound 'Just THIS!', then we are creating a concept to explain the sound - which is the same as saying we create a form to superimpose on emptiness. Sometimes this seems necessary and I do that all the time. So do we all. Does this seem to correspond more closely with Chan teachings? Thanks...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jue Miao Jing Ming - Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 12:56 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Zen] Perhaps Hi Bill, You stated that Shigantaza is just this. If just this is indeed Shigantaza, as you stated, now I would understand finally why you channel most postings to just this as the singular truth and others as illusory. For us to communicate better, I like to clarify some of the terms that we use. I believe that your illusory is equate to my form. If so, then just this, or clear mind, is not as is, as per our previous discussion. As is in my posts includes everything. It includes all the forms, as well as clear mind and a heart with harmonious intentions. In other words, as is includes both illusions and clear mind of yours, plus pure heart without other impulses. You are separating Just this from all illusions, which is not wrong, while we teach to accept all forms as well as maintaining a clear mind and a pure heart. Pure heart in our our school also means originally embedded with compassion or harmonious intentions. For us to live an enlightened life, accept/fulfill/consummate every form, or illusion, is a required condition, which is why we need pana/wisdom as well as maintaining a clear mind without judgment in addition to pure heart without various impulses, or without karmic influence. These are the basis often for me to say ALL. All includes the life force and wisdom of the universal essence as well as all the transient, relative and impermanent forms. Then we are whole and complete. Otherwise, we are still practicing a incomplete practice. JMJM -- Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5643 (20101123)__ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5643 (20101123)__ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5644 (20101124)__ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5644 (20101124)__ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5644 (20101124)__ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
[Zen] Samadhi anyone?
Mathematics may be defined as the subject in which we never know what we are talking about, nor whether what we are saying is true. --Bertrand Russell What is your understanding of 'Samadhi'? --ED
Re: [Zen] Three Buddhist Practices
JMJM, You say: Kensho『見性』 is resulted from sitting, which is a state before Samadhi『三摩地』。 I think kensho results from sitting and it is a state after samadhi. That is what most people think. If you think otherwise, perhaps you had a unique experience. You say: The Sixth Patriarch did not even read or write. Yes, you are right, but he asked others to read and write for him, because he was illiterate. In other words, he had trouble with Chinese ideographic characters, but he was very smart in understanding language. That is a paradox. You say: Heart is the center of our true spiritual being. 『靈性』。 This word is better translated into 'mind' in English. ' Heart' is not the right word. You say: 覺妙精明合十頂禮 禪宗第八十六代總教授師。 I bow back to you. Anthony --- On Wed, 24/11/10, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Three Buddhist Practices To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 24 November, 2010, 8:47 AM Hi Anthony, 1. Yes, you are right。 Kensho『見性』 is resulted from sitting, which is a state before Samadhi『三摩地』。All these descriptions are resulted from sitting. No different from describing the taste of Apple. 2. Don't know what you were trying to say. 3. Heart is everything you were talking about. It is the integration of our mind and our physical being. Also mind is the collection of every cell in our body. Heart is our complete being. Heart is the center of our true spiritual being. 『靈性』。 Please do not analyze, categorize, think in terms of words. Practice and you shall witness. Heart is extremely powerful. All words are just descriptions of various states of being. Studying these words, like ED was doing, is NOT practice. These two domains do not intersect. Let me share a phrase with you from one China man to another. 達摩祖師於其血脈論中說：「見性為禪，若不見性，即非禪 也。」又說：「性及是心，心即是佛，佛即是道，道即是禪。」 覺妙精明合十頂禮 禪宗第八十六代總教授師。 Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org On 11/23/2010 12:51 PM, Anthony Wu wrote: JMJM, Most of your remarks make sense. But there is a problem with the following: Most of us consider kensho a result of stillness, but you think it the other way around. Yes, the Sixth Patriarch did not write, because he was unable to. He was illiterate. That does not mean he did not want to. His famous poem was dictated by him and written by his fellow student on the wall, to counter a different idea by Shenxiu. On the other hand, he read with or without the help of others, including his teacher. His favorite reading was the Diamond Sutra. The third point is about the 'heart'. What do you think it is? The organ that can be transplanted? An emotional center that is used in the expression: I love my girl friend with all my heart? Or one of the centers where you can manipulate your 'chi' (heart chakra)? Anthony --- On Tue, 23/11/10, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com Subject: [Zen] Three Buddhist Practices To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 23 November, 2010, 9:20 AM Hi All, The three fundamental Buddhist practices is Discipline, Meditation, Wisdom. In Pali, they are sila, samadhi, panna, or translated into morality, stillness, wisdom. Word wise, jhana and samadhi and stillness are the same. Morality and discipline are the same. Some of you may disagree about this same. They are the same in practice. They are different only in our heads. As you know, Chan is not taught through words. Chan is about practice. Let me explain. My Teacher calls the first practice purification. When our body and mind become pure, we automatically disciplined and moral. I call the first practice detox. Detox from all our habits - habitual concepts, habitual actions, habitual food, habitual life style. It is like a reboot. When we reach this clean state of being, then we reach samadhi, jhana, stillness or just Ding, as we call it in our school. It is a state of stillness, yet spacious, expansive, clear, thoughtless.. Maintaining in this state, enables us to be in sync with the energy and wisdom of the universe. Kensho is when our heart outshines our mind. It is also a description of state. Usually it means a state of clear mind or stillness before we reach samadhi. Shigantaza however is the same practice (from the discipline, through sitting to clear mind to kensho). In short, if we can detach ourselves from the descriptions from these states and simply Just Sit without thoughts and cultivate our chi. We can reach all these states. In our school, we have a fourth state, our Teacher calls it, liberation. It means liberation of our heart after we quiet or clear our mind. There is really no need to comprehend, just practice. The Sixth Patriarch did not even read or write. :-) Be Enlightened In This
Re: [Zen] Three Buddhist Practices
Hi, Anthony You say: The Sixth Patriarch did not even read or write. Yes, you are right, but he asked others to read and write for him, because he was illiterate. In other words, he had trouble with Chinese ideographic characters, but he was very smart in understanding language. That is a paradox. Moghul emperor Akbhar is said that he could not read not write (he seems that was dislexic). Nevertheless, he had an extremely good memoire, was extremely inteligent...and founded his own religion (illahi; his coins could be read Allah is great...or Akbhar is God). For what I read, only two adherents: himself and a counsellor Could not be that sixth patriarch (may I ask, ignorant of me, of which line? I am used to the line of Kargyuptas. Tilopa, Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa. No much more), just be dislexic?. Not so uncommon All blessings have its hinderings. With best wishes Lluís - Original Message - From: Anthony Wu To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 10:24 PM Subject: Re: [Zen] Three Buddhist Practices JMJM, You say: Kensho『見性』 is resulted from sitting, which is a state before Samadhi『三摩地』。 I think kensho results from sitting and it is a state after samadhi. That is what most people think. If you think otherwise, perhaps you had a unique experience. You say: The Sixth Patriarch did not even read or write. Yes, you are right, but he asked others to read and write for him, because he was illiterate. In other words, he had trouble with Chinese ideographic characters, but he was very smart in understanding language. That is a paradox. You say: Heart is the center of our true spiritual being. 『靈性』。 This word is better translated into 'mind' in English. ' Heart' is not the right word. You say: 覺妙精明合十頂禮 禪宗第八十六代總教授師。 I bow back to you. Anthony --- On Wed, 24/11/10, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Three Buddhist Practices To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 24 November, 2010, 8:47 AM Hi Anthony, 1. Yes, you are right。 Kensho『見性』 is resulted from sitting, which is a state before Samadhi『三摩地』。All these descriptions are resulted from sitting. No different from describing the taste of Apple. 2. Don't know what you were trying to say. 3. Heart is everything you were talking about. It is the integration of our mind and our physical being. Also mind is the collection of every cell in our body. Heart is our complete being. Heart is the center of our true spiritual being. 『靈性』。 Please do not analyze, categorize, think in terms of words. Practice and you shall witness. Heart is extremely powerful. All words are just descriptions of various states of being. Studying these words, like ED was doing, is NOT practice. These two domains do not intersect. Let me share a phrase with you from one China man to another. 達摩祖師於其血脈論中說：「見性為禪，若不見性，即非禪 也。」又說：「性及是心，心即是佛，佛即是道，道即是禪。」 覺妙精明合十頂禮 禪宗第八十六代總教授師。 Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org On 11/23/2010 12:51 PM, Anthony Wu wrote: JMJM, Most of your remarks make sense. But there is a problem with the following: Most of us consider kensho a result of stillness, but you think it the other way around. Yes, the Sixth Patriarch did not write, because he was unable to. He was illiterate. That does not mean he did not want to. His famous poem was dictated by him and written by his fellow student on the wall, to counter a different idea by Shenxiu. On the other hand, he read with or without the help of others, including his teacher. His favorite reading was the Diamond Sutra. The third point is about the 'heart'. What do you think it is? The organ that can be transplanted? An emotional center that is used in the expression: I love my girl friend with all my heart? Or one of the centers where you can manipulate your 'chi' (heart chakra)? Anthony --- On Tue, 23/11/10, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com Subject: [Zen] Three Buddhist Practices To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 23 November, 2010, 9:20 AM Hi All, The three fundamental Buddhist practices is Discipline, Meditation, Wisdom. In Pali, they are sila, samadhi, panna, or translated into morality, stillness, wisdom. Word wise, jhana and samadhi and stillness
[Zen] New Member
Greetings, I apparently have been practicing a number of principles of Zen for quite some time, albeit completely unintentionally. A lot of what I am reading now are things I have realized through experience without external guidance: It is very refreshing to see there are teachings for this that I have stumbled on. One thing I am having a lot of trouble with recently is interaction with others who simply don't understand - people so stuck in their dualities that they can't begin to comprehend I just don't have them, people who are so immersed in the material world that they can't conceive that I am happy without many possessions, people so focused on having external influences complete them that they seem to be cut off from simply being. This issue has been so pervasive recently that I have went from existing with a peaceful thought-free mind (no-mind?) to one that has been sad on occasion. I have never needed meditation to achieve that state, but I am starting it to see if it helps. It seems the issues most frequently presented are that people who feel I am important to them seem to keep insisting on doing things for me, then being frustrated that I am not ecstatic for their gestures (nor am I upset, those gestures simply are what they are - transient, typically materialistic things that are nice, but not necessary to my wellbeing). They expect to be thanked as if I had needed their action like food or water. They seem to expect me to sustain them in a similar fashion. And thus they make their own misery over it when I simply am who I am. I've tried explaining, but they are not ready to learn. I have been called cold or unsympathetic. It seems people expect me to make assumptions on the intention (or nonintention) behind their actions. Yet they do them and by doing them they are those actions, yet they take no responsibility for them. Even more they seem to expect everyone, including nature itself to excuse their actions, nullify any effect or consequences those actions may have had. To me it is what it is - yet this makes them miserable, as if I am expected to wipe away their remorse by reassuring them they were at the mercy of some power other than their own. So I ask: How do you interact with the people in this world? -Lana
RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
Bill, 只管打坐 is a Chinese phrase pronounced zhiguan dazuo in Chinese, and shikantaza in Japanese. You cannot break them down into individual characters and try to work out the meaning of the whole phrase, but you can separate them into zhiguan (shikan in Japanese) and dazuo (taza). The former denotes 'just manage' or 'only control', and the latter 'sit (formally)', Your understanding of 'za' 坐 is correct that it is 'sit'. However, forget the 'ta' 打, as its normal meaning is 'beat'. It is redundant or it just adds some emotions. Probably you can compare the English expression 'next time around'. The word 'around' can be deleted without a change in the idea. The 'shi' in 'shikan' is not 'white'. The color is expressed with a different character 白 anthony HHS1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 24 November, 2010, 9:57 AM Anthony, I have more questions for you – and one’s I think you can answer: 1. Is ‘zhiguan dazuo’ a transliteration of the Chinese pronunciation? ASSUMING ‘shikantaza’ is the transliteration of the Japanese term: I've always thought 'za' meant 'to sit' and maybe even 'to sit meditation'. I deduced this from the common Japanese terms used in the zendo such as 'zafu' (za=sit, fu=pillow?) and 'zabuton' (za=sit, buton=cushion or mat). I've also deduced that 'shi' means 'white', like 'maguro shiro' (maguro=tuna, shiro=white or white color?) and 'miso shiro' (miso=soybean paste, shiro=white or white color). All this would lead me to believe that 'shikantaza' means a lot more than 'just sit'. I've always assumed it meant something like 'shi-kan' = -white?-something(mind?) and 'ta-za' = something (only?)-sit (?). So, in 'shikantaza': 2. What does 'shi' mean? White? 3. What does 'kan' mean? Mind? 4. What does 'ta' mean? Only? 5. What does 'za' mean? Sit? Meditate? 6. If my assumptions are way off base, what do the individual syllables (ideographs) mean in the term 只管打坐 (or whatever they are). AND ANYONE ELSE out there that speaks Japanese or Chinese, please feel free to comment. Thanks...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 7:07 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas Bill, Shikantaza (zhiguan dazuo) is literally 'just sit'. Samadhi. clear mind, daydreaming or exasperation can be the result of shikandaza. Anthony --- On Tue, 23/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 23 November, 2010, 7:47 AM Anthony, Thanks for the translation. I was definitely told the Japanese word ‘shikantaza’ meant ‘clear mind’. See the quotes attributed to Rujing and Dogen Zenji in the definition in my post below. Perhaps it is an extreme interpretation of ‘just sit’ which means you are just sitting and not thinking or doing anything else. That works for me. What is your opinion on the similarity between the terms ‘shikantaza’ and ‘samadhi’? Do you think they are trying to describe the same experience? …Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 3:02 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas Bill, I almost agree in a wholesale way all you say below, except for one: shikantaza as: .. (只管打坐?) is a Chinese word denoting 'just sit (formally)', It is just a technique, and the other ideas you state in relation are 'derived meanings'. Anthony --- On Mon, 22/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 22 November, 2010, 10:47 PM ED, My formal teaching has been in Japanese Zen Buddhism so most of the terms of which I am familiar are Japanese. These are my understanding of some of the terms we've been using: Kensho: A brief and temporary glimpse of Buddha Nature. Satori: Essentially the same as kensho but a much more long-lasting and persistent awareness of Buddha Nature. Shikantaza: 'Clear Mind', pure awareness. I call this state 'Just THIS!'. Clear Mind with Awareness = Buddha Mind/Buddha Nature. Wikipedia defines shikantaza as: .. (只管打坐?) ... a Japanese term for zazen introduced by Rujing and associated most with the Soto school of Zen Buddhism, but which also is the base of all Zen disciplines. According to Dōgen Zenji, shikantaza i.e. resting in a state of brightly alert attention that is free of thoughts, directed to no object, and attached to no particular content—is the highest or purest form of zazen,
RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book
Bill, Under your guidance, I lost my ability to commit atrocities. But the whole human socieity needs a deterrent to prevent bad elements from committing them. Otherwise, the world will be in turmoil. What is your idea about preventing turmoil? Or don't you think it unnecessary? BTW, I have a technical problem with your post when reading within mine. For example: In it you used the word ‘we’. I didn’t ask about ‘we/us’, I asked about YOU. Why do YOU need a deterrent against atrocities – to That is what I got from your post. Probably some formating commands did not work out well. Anthony --- On Wed, 24/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 24 November, 2010, 12:25 PM Anthony, I’m going to be VERY PICKY about your answer to my question. In it you used the word ‘we’. I didn’t ask about ‘we/us’, I asked about YOU. Why do YOU need a deterrent against atrocities – to prevent you from committing one? …Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 4:02 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book Bill, Then I answer you as follows: We need a deterrent to make Hitler and the like gentle lambs, so that they can be your companions on the way to heaven. Anthony --- On Tue, 23/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 23 November, 2010, 3:12 PM Anthony, Hey! That’s not fair! I did answer your question. My answer was ‘I don’t know’. From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 7:10 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book Bill, So I don't have to answer your question. No, K.Marx did not say that. He or his friend quotes that to criticize the vanity of 'bourgeois ideology'. Anthony --- On Tue, 23/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 23 November, 2010, 7:47 AM Anthony, I do not know who said that. I have heard it before however. I’ll guess either Karl Marx or Frederic Nietzsche…Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 2:35 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book Bill, Before I answer your question, please answer the following first: Who says even if God did not exist, we should create one. Why did he say that? Anthony --- On Mon, 22/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 22 November, 2010, 12:23 PM Anthony, In the paragraph below you say ‘…we need a deterrent against atrocities…’. Why do YOU (not Pol Pot, not Hitler, not Chris, not Bill!) need a deterrent against atrocities? …Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 4:03 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book Chris, If Hitler and Pol Pot were alive, they would not testify whether their conscience suffered. On the other hand, Hitler would have continued his nightmares without killing 10 million Jews. Like you said regarding the SS, so many people went along with him. I don't think all of them had nightmares. If so, the war deaths might have been cut in half. So we need a deterrent against atrocities, and afterlife retribution and religios hell are effective ones. That is why somebody says (do you remember who it is?) that even if God did not exist, we should create one. Anthony from the Land of the Red Guard --- On Sun, 21/11/10, ChrisAustinLane ch...@austin-lane.net wrote: From: ChrisAustinLane ch...@austin-lane.net Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Cc: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, 21 November, 2010, 9:19 AM Thanks, Chris Austin-Lane Sent from a cell phone On Nov 20, 2010, at 13:03, Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg wrote: Bill, Chris' theory applies to you and Chris himself, but not to someone like Hitler or Pol Pot. They committed atrocities without compunction. No suffering in any part of their bodies and minds. Anthony That seems like a pretty strong claim. What is the evidence for that theory about their lack of suffering? I
Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
Siska, Thank you for your compliment. I am not a good teacher. How can a man of low intelligence be a teacher, let alone a good one? Anthony --- On Wed, 24/11/10, siska_...@yahoo.com siska_...@yahoo.com wrote: From: siska_...@yahoo.com siska_...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 24 November, 2010, 9:58 PM Hi Anthony, I think you're a good teacher. siska From: Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 03:20:48 +0800 (SGT) To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas Siska, Yes, it is. Anthony --- On Mon, 22/11/10, siska_...@yahoo.com siska_...@yahoo.com wrote: From: siska_...@yahoo.com siska_...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 22 November, 2010, 9:07 AM Anthony, Is this a koan too? :-) siska From: Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 05:35:26 +0800 (SGT) To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas Siska, Whatever Bill says is a koan. Otherwise, no matter it is from God, Allah, Buddha, Tony Blair or Hitler, it is no koan. Anthony --- On Sun, 21/11/10, siska_...@yahoo.com siska_...@yahoo.com wrote: From: siska_...@yahoo.com siska_...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, 21 November, 2010, 11:18 PM Hi Anthony, Bill, I'd be surprised if it has to be historically accurate to be a koan. Come to think about it, what makes a story (or perhaps a saying) a koan then? siska From: billsm...@hhs1963.org Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2010 16:13:53 +0700 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas Siska, I don’t mean to jump in for Anthony, but I’d like to respond to this too. Koans are like any other historical or even ancient writings. This includes the Bible. No one really knows whether the stories are really true, or mostly true or a compilation of several different occurrences in to one event or attributed to one person. For most stories like these it really doesn’t matter if they’re really true or not (unless you’re a fundamentalist Buddhist/Christian/Muslim/Fill-in-the-Blank). The story is a teaching tool and its historical accuracy is not really the point. …Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of siska_...@yahoo.com Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 7:55 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas Hi Anthony, I previously thought most, if not all, koans are made up stories instead of real events. They are not? siska From: Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 05:30:31 +0800 (SGT) To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas The story of buddha holding up a flower was cooked up by a zen fan, out of thin air. Nevertheless, it is a good story. I like it. Anthony --- On Wed, 17/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 17 November, 2010, 11:29 AM Siska, A koan that immediately comes to mind: Buddha Holds up a Flower, Case 6 - GATELESS GATE: “Once in ancient times, when the World-Honored One was at Mount Grdhrakuta (Vulture Peak), he held up a flower, twirled it, and showed it to the assemblage. At this, they all remained silent. Only the venerable Kashyapa broke into a smile. The World-Honored One said: “I have the eye treasury of the true Dharma, the marvelous mind of nirvana, the true form of no-form, the subtle gate of the Dharma. It does not depend on letters, being especially transmitted outside of all teachings. Now I entrust Mahakashyapa with this.”” This koan shows the fundamentals of zen communication, and actually sets out in clear language that this communication “…does not depend on letters…” and that it is “…outside of all teachings.”. Two other examples of how this communication is used of particular interest are two koans, both attributed to Nansen: Ordinary Mind is the Way, Case 19 – GATELESS GATE “Joshu earnestly asked Nansen, “What is the Way?” Nansen answered, “The ordinary mind is the Way.” …” Knowing is Not the Way, Case 34 – GATELESS GATE “Nansen said, “Mind is not Buddha; knowing is not the Way.” Do you have some Sufi stories that you’d like
Re: [Zen] Three Buddhist Practices
Lluis, Probably both Emperor Akbhar and the Sixth Patriarch Huinent were dislexic, and both were very intelligent as well. They have a lot in common. The Sixth Patriarch Huineng does not belong to any Tibetan lineages such as represented by Naropa, Tilopa etc. Huineng belongs to the lineage initiated by Bodhidharma, an Indian monk who came to China to start the zen school. Some compare Tibetan Tantrism to color TV, while zen, black and white TV. If you can enjoy the simplicity of a black and white TV, welcome to zen. Otherwise a color TV is more colorful. Anthony --- On Thu, 25/11/10, Lluís Mendieta lme...@intermail.es wrote: From: Lluís Mendieta lme...@intermail.es Subject: Re: [Zen] Three Buddhist Practices To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 25 November, 2010, 5:34 AM Hi, Anthony You say: The Sixth Patriarch did not even read or write. Yes, you are right, but he asked others to read and write for him, because he was illiterate. In other words, he had trouble with Chinese ideographic characters, but he was very smart in understanding language. That is a paradox. Moghul emperor Akbhar is said that he could not read not write (he seems that was dislexic). Nevertheless, he had an extremely good memoire, was extremely inteligent...and founded his own religion (illahi; his coins could be read Allah is great...or Akbhar is God). For what I read, only two adherents: himself and a counsellor Could not be that sixth patriarch (may I ask, ignorant of me, of which line? I am used to the line of Kargyuptas. Tilopa, Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa. No much more), just be dislexic?. Not so uncommon All blessings have its hinderings. With best wishes Lluís - Original Message - From: Anthony Wu To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 10:24 PM Subject: Re: [Zen] Three Buddhist Practices JMJM, You say: Kensho『見性』 is resulted from sitting, which is a state before Samadhi『三摩地』。 I think kensho results from sitting and it is a state after samadhi. That is what most people think. If you think otherwise, perhaps you had a unique experience. You say: The Sixth Patriarch did not even read or write. Yes, you are right, but he asked others to read and write for him, because he was illiterate. In other words, he had trouble with Chinese ideographic characters, but he was very smart in understanding language. That is a paradox. You say: Heart is the center of our true spiritual being. 『靈性』。 This word is better translated into 'mind' in English. ' Heart' is not the right word. You say: 覺妙精明合十頂禮 禪宗第八十六代總教授師。 I bow back to you. Anthony --- On Wed, 24/11/10, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Three Buddhist Practices To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 24 November, 2010, 8:47 AM Hi Anthony, 1. Yes, you are right。 Kensho『見性』 is resulted from sitting, which is a state before Samadhi『三摩地』。All these descriptions are resulted from sitting. No different from describing the taste of Apple. 2. Don't know what you were trying to say. 3. Heart is everything you were talking about. It is the integration of our mind and our physical being. Also mind is the collection of every cell in our body. Heart is our complete being. Heart is the center of our true spiritual being. 『靈性』。 Please do not analyze, categorize, think in terms of words. Practice and you shall witness. Heart is extremely powerful. All words are just descriptions of various states of being. Studying these words, like ED was doing, is NOT practice. These two domains do not intersect. Let me share a phrase with you from one China man to another. 達摩祖師於其血脈論中說：「見性為禪，若不見性，即非禪 也。」又說：「性及是心，心即是佛，佛即是道，道即是禪。」 覺妙精明合十頂禮 禪宗第八十六代總教授師。 Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org On 11/23/2010 12:51 PM, Anthony Wu wrote: JMJM, Most of your remarks make sense. But there is a problem with the following: Most of us consider kensho a result of stillness, but you think it the other way around. Yes, the Sixth Patriarch did not write, because he was unable to. He was illiterate. That does not mean he did not want to. His famous poem was dictated by him and written by his fellow student on the wall, to counter a different idea by Shenxiu. On the other hand, he read with or without the help of others, including his teacher. His favorite reading was the Diamond Sutra. The third point is about the 'heart'. What do you think it is? The organ that can be transplanted? An emotional center that is used in the expression: I love my girl friend with all my heart? Or one of the centers where you can manipulate your 'chi' (heart chakra)? Anthony --- On Tue, 23/11/10, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com
Re: [Zen] New Member
Good question Lana. It would be great to have more discussion in this forum about the nitty gritty of dealing with people in the world. Rose --- On Wed, 11/24/10, Lana M. Gibbons lana.m.gibb...@gmail.com wrote: From: Lana M. Gibbons lana.m.gibb...@gmail.com Subject: [Zen] New Member To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, November 24, 2010, 8:56 PM Greetings, I apparently have been practicing a number of principles of Zen for quite some time, albeit completely unintentionally. A lot of what I am reading now are things I have realized through experience without external guidance: It is very refreshing to see there are teachings for this that I have stumbled on. One thing I am having a lot of trouble with recently is interaction with others who simply don't understand - people so stuck in their dualities that they can't begin to comprehend I just don't have them, people who are so immersed in the material world that they can't conceive that I am happy without many possessions, people so focused on having external influences complete them that they seem to be cut off from simply being. This issue has been so pervasive recently that I have went from existing with a peaceful thought-free mind (no-mind?) to one that has been sad on occasion. I have never needed meditation to achieve that state, but I am starting it to see if it helps. It seems the issues most frequently presented are that people who feel I am important to them seem to keep insisting on doing things for me, then being frustrated that I am not ecstatic for their gestures (nor am I upset, those gestures simply are what they are - transient, typically materialistic things that are nice, but not necessary to my wellbeing). They expect to be thanked as if I had needed their action like food or water. They seem to expect me to sustain them in a similar fashion. And thus they make their own misery over it when I simply am who I am. I've tried explaining, but they are not ready to learn. I have been called cold or unsympathetic. It seems people expect me to make assumptions on the intention (or nonintention) behind their actions. Yet they do them and by doing them they are those actions, yet they take no responsibility for them. Even more they seem to expect everyone, including nature itself to excuse their actions, nullify any effect or consequences those actions may have had. To me it is what it is - yet this makes them miserable, as if I am expected to wipe away their remorse by reassuring them they were at the mercy of some power other than their own. So I ask: How do you interact with the people in this world? -Lana
Re: [Zen] New Member
It seems to me that traditional buddhists were able to step away from the world and dedicate themselves to their studies, some did not even have to do chores! Only the teachers really needed to interact with outsiders and even then, they only really interacted with those who were interested in learning (or thought they were interested in learning). In the reality of today's world, unless one was born into a rich family, one has to work for their living. One has to be a part of a society made up of the self-indulgent and dualistic, somehow maintaining no-mind despite constant contact with those who truly are suffering: all while knowing self-realization is something they have to attain on their own. -Lana On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 4:35 PM, Rose P things_r...@yahoo.com wrote: Good question Lana. It would be great to have more discussion in this forum about the nitty gritty of dealing with people in the world. Rose So I ask: How do you interact with the people in this world?
Re: [Zen] Three Buddhist Practices
JMJM, Do you have a reference to support you position that kensho is prior to satori? Thanks, ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wu...@... wrote: JMJM, You say: Kensho is resulted from sitting, which is a state before Samadhi I think kensho results from sitting and it is a state after samadhi. That is what most people think. If you think otherwise, perhaps you had a unique experience. I bow back to you. Anthony Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] New Member
No, Thank You. I already have much of the infant's mentality, the lack of duality, the awareness, the no-mind - to discard all of what I have learned so far would be to discard my true self. The typical five year old has many concepts and ideas, they are possessive, materialistic, extreme in their sense of duality, some even expect others to serve them - that is nothing I strive towards being. If all children naturally developed as Buddhas, there would be no need for Buddhism to exist. -Lana On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 3:36 PM, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.comwrote: *Lana wrote: * *So I ask: How do you interact with the people in this world?* * * *Dear Lana:* *Have a warm welcome to us.. My advice here to you will be that of forget all you have learnt so far and start all over completely a new. As if you were a baby recently borne who has everything to learn, to explore, to experience. Visualise the baby you were and observe the personality and way of doing of that baby. Or when you were five years old with no concepts or ideas but with that huge awe and curiosity for everything?. Can you remember how very attentive then, you were able to listen to anyone talking to you about something?. Can you remember how attentive you were to everything that was going on?Remember the little child and be simply yourself in that simplicity, Natural with your laugh and your tears. Free yourself of the weight of the thought and ideas accumulated through the years.Don't be afraid of being yourself. Give up about enlightenment and just be happy. * * * *I interact well with people but then I'm very lazy in cultivating them and most of them give up on me!. But that is not their fault but mine all alone.* * * *Hope you have lots and lots of feedback for your question.* *Mayka*
Re: [Zen] New Member
Thanks Rose; Agree with you and Lana. Let's heat this thread!, though imput is not a guarantee amongst the readers of zen, philosophers, religious discussions, koans headacheWhat a slap in the face to make us all come back to the real world of the living!.. Would you be so kind to do some sharing about it?. Do you interact well with people?. Do you have difficulties?. What are your difficulties about? How do you resolve them?. My apologies by all the shooting questioning which only intention is made to re-heat the thread. Mayka --- On Wed, 24/11/10, Rose P things_r...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Rose P things_r...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] New Member To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 24 November, 2010, 23:35 Good question Lana. It would be great to have more discussion in this forum about the nitty gritty of dealing with people in the world. Rose --- On Wed, 11/24/10, Lana M. Gibbons lana.m.gibb...@gmail.com wrote: From: Lana M. Gibbons lana.m.gibb...@gmail.com Subject: [Zen] New Member To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, November 24, 2010, 8:56 PM Greetings, I apparently have been practicing a number of principles of Zen for quite some time, albeit completely unintentionally. A lot of what I am reading now are things I have realized through experience without external guidance: It is very refreshing to see there are teachings for this that I have stumbled on. One thing I am having a lot of trouble with recently is interaction with others who simply don't understand - people so stuck in their dualities that they can't begin to comprehend I just don't have them, people who are so immersed in the material world that they can't conceive that I am happy without many possessions, people so focused on having external influences complete them that they seem to be cut off from simply being. This issue has been so pervasive recently that I have went from existing with a peaceful thought-free mind (no-mind?) to one that has been sad on occasion. I have never needed meditation to achieve that state, but I am starting it to see if it helps. It seems the issues most frequently presented are that people who feel I am important to them seem to keep insisting on doing things for me, then being frustrated that I am not ecstatic for their gestures (nor am I upset, those gestures simply are what they are - transient, typically materialistic things that are nice, but not necessary to my wellbeing). They expect to be thanked as if I had needed their action like food or water. They seem to expect me to sustain them in a similar fashion. And thus they make their own misery over it when I simply am who I am. I've tried explaining, but they are not ready to learn. I have been called cold or unsympathetic. It seems people expect me to make assumptions on the intention (or nonintention) behind their actions. Yet they do them and by doing them they are those actions, yet they take no responsibility for them. Even more they seem to expect everyone, including nature itself to excuse their actions, nullify any effect or consequences those actions may have had. To me it is what it is - yet this makes them miserable, as if I am expected to wipe away their remorse by reassuring them they were at the mercy of some power other than their own. So I ask: How do you interact with the people in this world? -Lana
Re: [Zen] New Member
Lana: The idea of the child is not as the silly child but the childlike. Very different things. The child is inmature. The childlike is mature and wise without knowing of being. Mayka --- On Wed, 24/11/10, Lana M. Gibbons lana.m.gibb...@gmail.com wrote: From: Lana M. Gibbons lana.m.gibb...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Zen] New Member To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 24 November, 2010, 23:53 No, Thank You. I already have much of the infant's mentality, the lack of duality, the awareness, the no-mind - to discard all of what I have learned so far would be to discard my true self. The typical five year old has many concepts and ideas, they are possessive, materialistic, extreme in their sense of duality, some even expect others to serve them - that is nothing I strive towards being. If all children naturally developed as Buddhas, there would be no need for Buddhism to exist. -Lana On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 3:36 PM, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote: Lana wrote: So I ask: How do you interact with the people in this world? Dear Lana: Have a warm welcome to us.. My advice here to you will be that of forget all you have learnt so far and start all over completely a new. As if you were a baby recently borne who has everything to learn, to explore, to experience. Visualise the baby you were and observe the personality and way of doing of that baby. Or when you were five years old with no concepts or ideas but with that huge awe and curiosity for everything?. Can you remember how very attentive then, you were able to listen to anyone talking to you about something?. Can you remember how attentive you were to everything that was going on?Remember the little child and be simply yourself in that simplicity, Natural with your laugh and your tears. Free yourself of the weight of the thought and ideas accumulated through the years. Don't be afraid of being yourself. Give up about enlightenment and just be happy. I interact well with people but then I'm very lazy in cultivating them and most of them give up on me!. But that is not their fault but mine all alone. Hope you have lots and lots of feedback for your question. Mayka
Re: [Zen] New Member
Lana, From your own experience (which is the only non-illusory mode of sensing true reality that is accepted on this zen forum,) have you any evidence that 'buddhas' exist? Thanks, --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Lana M. Gibbons lana.m.gibb...@... wrote: No, Thank You. I already have much of the infant's mentality, the lack of duality, the awareness, the no-mind - to discard all of what I have learned so far would be to discard my true self. The typical five year old has many concepts and ideas, they are possessive, materialistic, extreme in their sense of duality, some even expect others to serve them - that is nothing I strive towards being. If all children naturally developed as Buddhas, there would be no need for Buddhism to exist. -Lana
Re: [Zen] New Member
Rose and Lana, For an unenlightened response, the question can only be answered on a case by case basis. For an enlightened response, the answer is 'just THIS' in every moment. (But that may infuriate the other if he/she is unaware of the rules of the game that you are playing from!) ---ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Rose P things_r...@... wrote: Good question Lana. It would be great to have more discussion in this forum about the nitty gritty of dealing with people in the world. Rose
Re: [Zen] New Member
Lana, The way in which babies normally and naturally behave is to be obsessed with 'I/me/mine' (it's ego), with no regard whatsoever for the needs of its mother or anyone else - and without which attitude it would not survive. In short, if babies had no egos, the only babies who survived for more than a few days would be 'buddhas' - and the population of human buddhas on this earth would be nil. --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Lana M. Gibbons lana.m.gibb...@... wrote: No, Thank You. I already have much of the infant's mentality, the lack of duality, the awareness, the no-mind - to discard all of what I have learned so far would be to discard my true self. The typical five year old has many concepts and ideas, they are possessive, materialistic, extreme in their sense of duality, some even expect others to serve them - that is nothing I strive towards being. If all children naturally developed as Buddhas, there would be no need for Buddhism to exist. -Lana
[Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
Anthony, Everybody is a teacher of somebody on some occasion. Contrary individuals, in their normal state, are the best teachers - provided one is ready for the teachings. :-) --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wu...@... wrote: Siska, Thank you for your compliment. I am not a good teacher. How can a man of low intelligence be a teacher, let alone a good one? Anthony
RE: [Zen] Samadhi anyone?
2 + 3 = 5 Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ED Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 11:46 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Zen] Samadhi anyone? Mathematics may be defined as the subject in which we never know what we are talking about, nor whether what we are saying is true. --Bertrand Russell What is your understanding of 'Samadhi'? --ED __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5646 (20101124) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5646 (20101124) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Zen] Perhaps
and the non form is in the form. Even the Prajnaparamita Sutra can confirm this: ...Emptiness is form, form is emptiness Mayka --- On Wed, 24/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Perhaps To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 24 November, 2010, 4:10 JMJM, I think what you expressed in the attached email is essentially correct. I do use 'Just THIS!' to express emptiness, and the absence of forms. I have always assumed that when I use the term ‘illusions’ or ‘concepts’ it is the same as your use of the word ‘form’. I don’t reject or completely ignore forms, in fact I use them all the time. I’m using them right now. I’ve always said that my zen practice involves learning to properly integrate forms into my life while maintaining the knowledge that they are forms - illusions and impermanent - without substance. 'Just THIS!' does not include forms. I think you would call it 'emptiness'. However my attempt at communicating 'Just THIS!' or emptiness when using a text-based media like this involves the use of forms - like words I type of 'Just THIS!'. Saying 'Just THIS!' is a little different in that it only involves creating a sound, and you only experience a sound. That's all there is to that. If you (or I) go on to create a concept or a definition or try to 'understand' the sound 'Just THIS!', then we are creating a concept to explain the sound - which is the same as saying we create a form to superimpose on emptiness. Sometimes this seems necessary and I do that all the time. So do we all. Does this seem to correspond more closely with Chan teachings? Thanks...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jue Miao Jing Ming - Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 12:56 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Zen] Perhaps Hi Bill, You stated that Shigantaza is just this. If just this is indeed Shigantaza, as you stated, now I would understand finally why you channel most postings to just this as the singular truth and others as illusory. For us to communicate better, I like to clarify some of the terms that we use. I believe that your illusory is equate to my form. If so, then just this, or clear mind, is not as is, as per our previous discussion. As is in my posts includes everything. It includes all the forms, as well as clear mind and a heart with harmonious intentions. In other words, as is includes both illusions and clear mind of yours, plus pure heart without other impulses. You are separating Just this from all illusions, which is not wrong, while we teach to accept all forms as well as maintaining a clear mind and a pure heart. Pure heart in our our school also means originally embedded with compassion or harmonious intentions. For us to live an enlightened life, accept/fulfill/consummate every form, or illusion, is a required condition, which is why we need pana/wisdom as well as maintaining a clear mind without judgment in addition to pure heart without various impulses, or without karmic influence. These are the basis often for me to say ALL. All includes the life force and wisdom of the universal essence as well as all the transient, relative and impermanent forms. Then we are whole and complete. Otherwise, we are still practicing a incomplete practice. JMJM -- Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5643 (20101123)__ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5643 (20101123)__ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5644 (20101124)__ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5644 (20101124)__ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5644 (20101124)__ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5646 (20101124) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5646 (20101124) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo
RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
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[Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
Anthony, Both you and Bill are 'right'. --ED Shikantaza is a Japanese term for zazen introduced by Rujing and associated most with the Soto school of Zen Buddhism, but which also is the base of all Zen disciplines. According to Dôgen Zenji, shikantaza i.e. resting in a state of brightly alert attention that is free of thoughts, directed to no object, and attached to no particular contentis the highest or purest form of zazen, zazen as it was practiced by all the buddhas of the past. The modern Japanese Zen master, Hakuun Ryôko Yasutani says: Shikantaza is the mind of someone facing death. Let us imagine that you are engaged in a duel of swordsmanship of the kind that used to take place in ancient Japan. As you face your opponent you are unceasingly watchful, set, ready. Were you to relax your vigilance even momentarily, you would be cut down instantly. A crowd gathers to see the fight. Since you are not blind you see them from the corner of your eye, and since you are not deaf you hear them. But not for an instant is your mind captured by these impressions. (Introductory Lectures on Zen Training, Kapleau) The term is believed to have been first used by Dôgen's teacher Tiantong Rujing, and it literally means, nothing but (shikan) precisely (da) sitting (za). In other words Dôgen means by this, doing only zazen whole-heartedly or single-minded sitting. Shikantaza implies just sitting, and according to author James Ishmael Ford, Some trace the root of this word to the pronunciation of the Pâli vipassana, though this is far from certain. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shikantaza http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shikantaza --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wu...@... wrote: Bill, As I already said, shikantaza denotes 'only sit'. The rest are derived meanings. For you the derivative of shikantaza is clear mind. Anthony
RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book
wrote: From: ChrisAustinLane ch...@austin-lane.net Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Cc: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, 21 November, 2010, 9:19 AM Thanks, Chris Austin-Lane Sent from a cell phone On Nov 20, 2010, at 13:03, Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg wrote: Bill, Chris' theory applies to you and Chris himself, but not to someone like Hitler or Pol Pot. They committed atrocities without compunction. No suffering in any part of their bodies and minds. Anthony That seems like a pretty strong claim. What is the evidence for that theory about their lack of suffering? I have read at least once that Hitler (Alice Miller, some essay about the roots of adult violence in the cruelty of childhood) suffered nightmares many nights where he relived some childhood beating, determined not to cry this time. Somewhat at a tangent, part of the horror of the 20th c genocides is that so many people in the societies went along with it. The puzzle isn't Hitler so much as the SS. Anyways, Hitler and Pol Pot are dead and will never be a part of my current moment, so I have even less reason to speculate whether my experience is true for them than whether it is true for my Gov't representatives. Generally, the question of what others should do doesn't come before me, only whether I am about to stub my toe or not. __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5637 (20101121) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5637 (20101121) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5639 (20101122) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5640 (20101122) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5640 (20101122) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5640 (20101122) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5640 (20101122) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5643 (20101123) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5643 (20101123) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5643 (20101123) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5646 (20101124) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5646 (20101124) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5646 (20101124) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Zen] Perhaps
don’t reject or completely ignore forms, in fact I use them all the time. I’m using them right now. I’ve always said that my zen practice involves learning to properly integrate forms into my life while maintaining the knowledge that they are forms - illusions and impermanent - without substance. 'Just THIS!' does not include forms. I think you would call it 'emptiness'. However my attempt at communicating 'Just THIS!' or emptiness when using a text-based media like this involves the use of forms - like words I type of 'Just THIS!'. Saying 'Just THIS!' is a little different in that it only involves creating a sound, and you only experience a sound. That's all there is to that. If you (or I) go on to create a concept or a definition or try to 'understand' the sound 'Just THIS!', then we are creating a concept to explain the sound - which is the same as saying we create a form to superimpose on emptiness. Sometimes this seems necessary and I do that all the time. So do we all. Does this seem to correspond more closely with Chan teachings? Thanks...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jue Miao Jing Ming - Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 12:56 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Zen] Perhaps Hi Bill, You stated that Shigantaza is just this. If just this is indeed Shigantaza, as you stated, now I would understand finally why you channel most postings to just this as the singular truth and others as illusory. For us to communicate better, I like to clarify some of the terms that we use. I believe that your illusory is equate to my form. If so, then just this, or clear mind, is not as is, as per our previous discussion. As is in my posts includes everything. It includes all the forms, as well as clear mind and a heart with harmonious intentions. In other words, as is includes both illusions and clear mind of yours, plus pure heart without other impulses. You are separating Just this from all illusions, which is not wrong, while we teach to accept all forms as well as maintaining a clear mind and a pure heart. Pure heart in our our school also means originally embedded with compassion or harmonious intentions. For us to live an enlightened life, accept/fulfill/consummate every form, or illusion, is a required condition, which is why we need pana/wisdom as well as maintaining a clear mind without judgment in addition to pure heart without various impulses, or without karmic influence. These are the basis often for me to say ALL. All includes the life force and wisdom of the universal essence as well as all the transient, relative and impermanent forms. Then we are whole and complete. Otherwise, we are still practicing a incomplete practice. JMJM -- Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5643 (20101123) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5643 (20101123) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5644 (20101124) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5644 (20101124) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5644 (20101124) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5646 (20101124) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5646 (20101124) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] New Member
Lana: When I'm into the discriminative mind I see and experience everything as you are giving a description here. But when I regain inner calm and serenity, at those moments the world seems perfect in its imperfection. Actually at those moments I see no perfection or imperfection. Have you ever observe in yourself that depending on what state of mind you were that is what you were seeing?. If a teaching is creating problems with you interacting with your closest people, making you suffer...then you are paying a high price because of an idea you have about how others should see the world according to your way of seeing. Throw away the idea and you may find both the way out here plus the heart of the teaching that you throw away. My boyfriend is not a practitioner and I won't change him for any practitioner. And here you go, what is not of any use I throw it away and whatever helps me with the relationship with my boyfriend and family I keep it. Still experimenting here. Being foolish often. Dwelling in samsara with frequency. But it's ok. I'm learning how to integrate the practise without imposing to my boyfriend this practise. Actually I like him better as a non practitioner because in this way he's warm, very affectionate, passionate... and all mine! (I know this last remark is samsara but don't care. I don't think I coud handle to have a frozen practitioner as a boyfriend) I do empathise with your difficulties here. It's not always easy for me either. We all go up and down. Zen is very far of being an easy practise. But it can be done as a part-time bases! . A bit in samsara and a bit in the Buddha. Why not?. No rush! Mayka --- On Thu, 25/11/10, Lana M. Gibbons lana.m.gibb...@gmail.com wrote: From: Lana M. Gibbons lana.m.gibb...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Zen] New Member To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 25 November, 2010, 0:29 It seems to me that traditional buddhists were able to step away from the world and dedicate themselves to their studies, some did not even have to do chores! Only the teachers really needed to interact with outsiders and even then, they only really interacted with those who were interested in learning (or thought they were interested in learning). In the reality of today's world, unless one was born into a rich family, one has to work for their living. One has to be a part of a society made up of the self-indulgent and dualistic, somehow maintaining no-mind despite constant contact with those who truly are suffering: all while knowing self-realization is something they have to attain on their own. -Lana On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 4:35 PM, Rose P things_r...@yahoo.com wrote: Good question Lana. It would be great to have more discussion in this forum about the nitty gritty of dealing with people in the world. Rose So I ask: How do you interact with the people in this world?
Re: [Zen] Samadhi anyone?
2 + 3 = 5 ... OR 4 OR 6 OR 7 OR ... --ED PS: o Samadhi is a Hindu, Buddhist and Sikh technical term that usually denotes higher levels of concentrated meditation, or dhyana, in Yogic schools. o In the Yoga tradition, it is the eighth and final limb identified in the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali. o In Buddhism, samâdhi is mental concentration or composing the mind. o In Buddhism, samâdhi is mental concentration or composing the mind. o A state of transcendent union supposed to be assumed by a holy man or yogi at his death; o The highest state of meditation, at which complete unity is reached o The name in India for spiritual ecstasy. o It is a state of complete trance, induced by means of mystic concentration. o With the ecstatic consciousness of the Soul by the full awakening of the Kundalini Shakti combined with full absorption of the attention upon the Soul. o The term samadhi (small 's') is also used to refer to the flowing of energy to any focal point of concentration in Raja Yoga. ... o (Sanskrit): a state of intense concentration. o Complete concentration, lit: the (mental) state of being firmly fixed, is the fixing of the mind on a single object. o Condition of absolute release from worldly constraints o A state in which the aspirant is one with the object of his meditation, the Supreme Spirit pervading the universe, where there is a feeling of unutterable joy and peace. o Abstract meditation; perfect absorption of thought into the Supreme Spirit,the highest and last stage of yoga. o Total yogic integration; ecstatic consciousness --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, billsm...@... wrote: 2 + 3 = 5 Bill! Mathematics may be defined as the subject in which we never know what we are talking about, nor whether what we are saying is true. --Bertrand Russell What is your understanding of 'Samadhi'? --ED
RE: [Zen] Perhaps
Mayka, I hope you know all my comments to you have not been criticisms. I am just interacting with you as Bill! to Mayka. Nothing more than that. In your last response you wrote: Mayka: Not only I missed out but I went into the thinking mind!. [Bill!] Yes! But you missed out BECAUSE you went into the thinking mind. As soon as you go into the thinking mind (I call it discriminating mind) you are lost! Lost in the world of forms, the world of illusions. When the discriminating mind springs to life there is, as you suggested in an early post, There, Here, Then, Good, Bad, Bill!, Mayka, etc... There is no longer Just THIS!. ...Bill! __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5646 (20101124) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Zen] New Member
Lana, There are times that quietude and solitude are helpful in zen practice, especially in the beginning. But eventually you have to bring your practice into the 'real world'. Zen is everyday life. You should be able to maintain Buddha Mind in the middle of Times Square New York City during rush hour just as well as in a cave in Tibet. ...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Lana M. Gibbons Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2010 7:30 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] New Member It seems to me that traditional buddhists were able to step away from the world and dedicate themselves to their studies, some did not even have to do chores! Only the teachers really needed to interact with outsiders and even then, they only really interacted with those who were interested in learning (or thought they were interested in learning). In the reality of today's world, unless one was born into a rich family, one has to work for their living. One has to be a part of a society made up of the self-indulgent and dualistic, somehow maintaining no-mind despite constant contact with those who truly are suffering: all while knowing self-realization is something they have to attain on their own. -Lana On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 4:35 PM, Rose P things_r...@yahoo.com wrote: Good question Lana. It would be great to have more discussion in this forum about the nitty gritty of dealing with people in the world. Rose So I ask: How do you interact with the people in this world? __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5646 (20101124) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5646 (20101124) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Three Buddhist Practices
Hi Ed, I don't have any position. These are my personal experience. You could have your personal experience. Each journey of ours is unique. Each journey is precious. What is yours? However you say it is, it is not. Diamond sutra already repeated this over and over with 5,000 words for this simple statement. Everything is not what it is. It just is. Spiritual journey is a pure internal witness without any shape or form. No matter how we try to describe, it is incomplete and never it. Buddha is inside us and not outside. Awakening got to come from inside. Instead of quoting the sutra, my Teacher always say, practice and you shall witness. Don't take my word for it. Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org On 11/24/2010 4:56 PM, ED wrote: JMJM, Do you have a reference to support you position that kensho is prior to satori? Thanks, ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wu...@... wrote: JMJM, You say: Kensho is resulted from sitting, which is a state before Samadhi I think kensho results from sitting and it is a state after samadhi. That is what most people think. If you think otherwise, perhaps you had a unique experience. I bow back to you. Anthony
RE: [Zen] Perhaps
Bill: It didn't cross my mind for a second your post as criticism.On the contrary I appreciate very much that you took your time and write what you were seeing. And still I keep seeing the form in the non form and the non form in the form. It's the experience of giving a description of that I'm unable to do. Please do keep interacting whenever you feel like it in any posting. My postings are opened to everyone in the forum response including those whose interaction is not easy going..In fact Whatever wrong doings to my person, I've forgiven. if any negative action may I have unwanted done to anyone can also be forgiven. And like this we can start all a new again. Mayka --- On Thu, 25/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Perhaps To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 25 November, 2010, 2:50 Mayka, I hope you know all my comments to you have not been criticisms. I am just interacting with you as Bill! to Mayka. Nothing more than that. In your last response you wrote: Mayka: Not only I missed out but I went into the thinking mind!. [Bill!] Yes! But you missed out BECAUSE you went into the thinking mind. As soon as you go into the thinking mind (I call it discriminating mind) you are lost! Lost in the world of forms, the world of illusions. When the discriminating mind springs to life there is, as you suggested in an early post, There, Here, Then, Good, Bad, Bill!, Mayka, etc... There is no longer Just THIS!. ...Bill! __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5646 (20101124) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
Re: [Zen] Three Buddhist Practices
Hi JMJM, All you can tcorrectly assert is that you have experiened something. You cannot all by yourself tell whether what you have experienced is samadhi or kensho. --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Jue Miao Jing Ming wrote: Hi Ed, I don't have any position. These are my personal experience. You could have your personal experience. Each journey of ours is unique. Each journey is precious. What is yours? However you say it is, it is not. Diamond sutra already repeated this over and over with 5,000 words for this simple statement. Everything is not what it is. It just is. Spiritual journey is a pure internal witness without any shape or form. No matter how we try to describe, it is incomplete and never it. Buddha is inside us and not outside. Awakening got to come from inside. Instead of quoting the sutra, my Teacher always say, practice and you shall witness. Don't take my word for it. Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org http://www.heartchan.org JMJM, Do you have a reference to support you position that kensho is prior to samadhi? Thanks, ED JMJM, You say: Kensho is resulted from sitting, which is a state before Samadhi I think kensho results from sitting and it is a state after samadhi. That is what most people think. If you think otherwise, perhaps you had a unique experience. I bow back to you. Anthony
[Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
Hi siska, Exactly! Equivalently, Bill might say it's simply a not-flowing with the way things are in the here and now. --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_...@... wrote: Hi Ed, Contrary individuals, in their normal state, are the best teachers - provided one is ready for the teachings. Reminds me of this: Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves (Carl Jung). siska
Re: [Zen] Perhaps
Hi Bill, Bill said: What you didn't talk about was the experience of just seeing, smelling, feeling and tasting. These are not forms. They are experience. They are empty. You place forms around them when you 'think or create the concepts of peach, hands, lips, pleasant, etc. Hi Bill, As per the excerpt from the Prajnaparamita Sutra below, *both* form and sensations/experiences are empty. --ED -- The Prajnaparamita Sutra states: 2. Explaining the essence of the Prajna-paramita practice 2-1. The relationship between physical dharmas and emptiness Sariputra, matter http://www.dmcclanahan.com/hsutra3.htm#matter is not different from emptiness, and Emptiness is not different from matter http://www.dmcclanahan.com/hsutra3.htm#matter . Matter http://www.dmcclanahan.com/hsutra3.htm#matter is emptiness and emptiness is matter http://www.dmcclanahan.com/hsutra3.htm#matter . 2-2. The relationship between mental dharmas and emptiness So too are sensation http://www.dmcclanahan.com/hsutra3.htm#sensatio , recognition http://www.dmcclanahan.com/hsutra3.htm#recognit , volition http://www.dmcclanahan.com/hsutra3.htm#volition and consciousness http://www.dmcclanahan.com/hsutra3.htm#consciou . -- --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, billsm...@... wrote: Mayka, Everything you talked about was indeed form. In the peach example the forms are: peach, hands, eyes, lips and pleasant are forms. What you didn't talk about was the experience of just seeing, smelling, feeling and tasting. These are not forms. They are experience. They are empty. You place forms around them when you 'think or create the concepts of peach, hands, lips, pleasant, etc. When there is Just THIS there is no peach, hands, eyes, lips or pleasant. There is Just THIS! which might be the raw experience of sight, smell, feel and/or taste. The Prajnaparamita Sutra may indeed state that 'Form is Emptiness and Emptiness in Form', but you have not demonstrated that to me. You've only talked about Form. Anyone can talk about Forms. Here is a koan for you: Say something about Emptiness! ...Bill!
Re: [Zen] Three Buddhist Practices
Ed, Correct. All these description are description of experience. No one in the world can know you what you have experienced. Therefore the description of any states is just emptiness. Therefore these type of discussion is emptiness.. :-) Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org On 11/24/2010 7:13 PM, ED wrote: Hi JMJM, All you can tcorrectly assert is that you have experiened something. You cannot all by yourself tell whether what you have experienced is samadhi or kensho. --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Jue Miao Jing Ming wrote: Hi Ed, I don't have any position. These are my personal experience. You could have your personal experience. Each journey of ours is unique. Each journey is precious. What is yours? However you say it is, it is not. Diamond sutra already repeated this over and over with 5,000 words for this simple statement. Everything is not what it is. It just is. Spiritual journey is a pure internal witness without any shape or form. No matter how we try to describe, it is incomplete and never it. Buddha is inside us and not outside. Awakening got to come from inside. Instead of quoting the sutra, my Teacher always say, practice and you shall witness. Don't take my word for it. Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org JMJM, Do you have a reference to support you position that kensho is prior to *samadhi? * Thanks, ED JMJM, You say: Kensho is resulted from sitting, which is a state before Samadhi I think kensho results from sitting and it is a state after samadhi. That is what most people think. If you think otherwise, perhaps you had a unique experience. I bow back to you. Anthony
Re: [Zen] Three Buddhist Practices
Many thanks, Anthony As far as I understand Buddhism, only different ways. Any of them would be the appropiate for me. Just trying to find it. With best wishes Lluís - Original Message - From: Anthony Wu To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2010 12:33 AM Subject: Re: [Zen] Three Buddhist Practices Lluis, Probably both Emperor Akbhar and the Sixth Patriarch Huinent were dislexic, and both were very intelligent as well. They have a lot in common. The Sixth Patriarch Huineng does not belong to any Tibetan lineages such as represented by Naropa, Tilopa etc. Huineng belongs to the lineage initiated by Bodhidharma, an Indian monk who came to China to start the zen school. Some compare Tibetan Tantrism to color TV, while zen, black and white TV. If you can enjoy the simplicity of a black and white TV, welcome to zen. Otherwise a color TV is more colorful. Anthony --- On Thu, 25/11/10, Lluís Mendieta lme...@intermail.es wrote: From: Lluís Mendieta lme...@intermail.es Subject: Re: [Zen] Three Buddhist Practices To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 25 November, 2010, 5:34 AM Hi, Anthony You say: The Sixth Patriarch did not even read or write. Yes, you are right, but he asked others to read and write for him, because he was illiterate. In other words, he had trouble with Chinese ideographic characters, but he was very smart in understanding language. That is a paradox. Moghul emperor Akbhar is said that he could not read not write (he seems that was dislexic). Nevertheless, he had an extremely good memoire, was extremely inteligent...and founded his own religion (illahi; his coins could be read Allah is great...or Akbhar is God). For what I read, only two adherents: himself and a counsellor Could not be that sixth patriarch (may I ask, ignorant of me, of which line? I am used to the line of Kargyuptas. Tilopa, Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa. No much more), just be dislexic?. Not so uncommon All blessings have its hinderings. With best wishes Lluís - Original Message - From: Anthony Wu To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 10:24 PM Subject: Re: [Zen] Three Buddhist Practices JMJM, You say: Kensho『見性』 is resulted from sitting, which is a state before Samadhi『三摩地』。 I think kensho results from sitting and it is a state after samadhi. That is what most people think. If you think otherwise, perhaps you had a unique experience. You say: The Sixth Patriarch did not even read or write. Yes, you are right, but he asked others to read and write for him, because he was illiterate. In other words, he had trouble with Chinese ideographic characters, but he was very smart in understanding language. That is a paradox. You say: Heart is the center of our true spiritual being. 『靈性』。 This word is better translated into 'mind' in English. ' Heart' is not the right word. You say: 覺妙精明合十頂禮 禪宗第八十六代總教授師。 I bow back to you. Anthony --- On Wed, 24/11/10, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Three Buddhist Practices To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 24 November, 2010, 8:47 AM Hi Anthony, 1. Yes, you are right。 Kensho『見性』 is resulted from sitting, which is a state before Samadhi『三摩地』。All these descriptions are resulted from sitting. No different from describing the taste of Apple. 2. Don't know what you were trying to say. 3. Heart is everything you were talking about. It is the integration of our mind and our physical being. Also mind is the collection of every cell in our body. Heart is our complete being. Heart is the center of our true spiritual being. 『靈性』。 Please do not analyze, categorize, think in terms of words. Practice and you shall witness. Heart is extremely powerful. All words are just descriptions of various states of being. Studying these words, like ED was doing, is NOT practice. These two domains do not intersect. Let me share a phrase with you from one China man to another. 達摩祖師於其血脈論中說：「見性為禪，若不見性，即非禪 也。」又說：「性及是心，心即是佛，佛即是道，道即是禪。」 覺妙精明合十頂禮 禪宗第八十六代總教授師。 Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org
Re: [Zen] New Member
Dear Lana, I was taught that all encounters of ours are form. And all forms are caused by some cause and each cause is caused by generations of causes, visible or invisible. We call these causes karma for simplicity sake. Please try to fulfill every encounter, because there is a reason for it to be there. Fulfillment is the reasons for us to be here. If we live separate from these encounters, instead of fulfilling them, then these encounters will recycle. That's what reincarnation is. Through these fulfillment, maybe resistive to your ego at the beginning, our wisdom grow. Then gradually our heart will shine through. JM Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org On 11/24/2010 12:56 PM, Lana M. Gibbons wrote: Greetings, I apparently have been practicing a number of principles of Zen for quite some time, albeit completely unintentionally. A lot of what I am reading now are things I have realized through experience without external guidance: It is very refreshing to see there are teachings for this that I have stumbled on. One thing I am having a lot of trouble with recently is interaction with others who simply don't understand - people so stuck in their dualities that they can't begin to comprehend I just don't have them, people who are so immersed in the material world that they can't conceive that I am happy without many possessions, people so focused on having external influences complete them that they seem to be cut off from simply being. This issue has been so pervasive recently that I have went from existing with a peaceful thought-free mind (no-mind?) to one that has been sad on occasion. I have never needed meditation to achieve that state, but I am starting it to see if it helps. It seems the issues most frequently presented are that people who feel I am important to them seem to keep insisting on doing things for me, then being frustrated that I am not ecstatic for their gestures (nor am I upset, those gestures simply are what they are - transient, typically materialistic things that are nice, but not necessary to my wellbeing). They expect to be thanked as if I had needed their action like food or water. They seem to expect me to sustain them in a similar fashion. And thus they make their own misery over it when I simply am who I am. I've tried explaining, but they are not ready to learn. I have been called cold or unsympathetic. It seems people expect me to make assumptions on the intention (or nonintention) behind their actions. Yet they do them and by doing them they are those actions, yet they take no responsibility for them. Even more they seem to expect everyone, including nature itself to excuse their actions, nullify any effect or consequences those actions may have had. To me it is what it is - yet this makes them miserable, as if I am expected to wipe away their remorse by reassuring them they were at the mercy of some power other than their own. So I ask: How do you interact with the people in this world? -Lana
Re: [Zen] Three Buddhist Practices
Anthony, Please accept my apology. I mixed up the two English terms, I read samma-Samadhi as Samma-sanbodhi. You are right, Kensho is after the Samadhi. JM Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org On 11/24/2010 1:24 PM, Anthony Wu wrote: JMJM, You say: Kensho『見性』 is resulted from sitting, which is a state before Samadhi『三摩地』。 I think kensho results from sitting and it is a state after samadhi. That is what most people think. If you think otherwise, perhaps you had a unique experience. You say: The Sixth Patriarch did not even read or write. Yes, you are right, but he asked others to read and write for him, because he was illiterate. In other words, he had trouble with Chinese ideographic characters, but he was very smart in understanding language. That is a paradox. You say: Heart is the center of our true spiritual being. 『靈 性』。 This word is better translated into 'mind' in English. ' Heart' is not the right word. You say: 覺妙精明合十頂禮 禪宗第八十六代總教授師。 I bow back to you. Anthony --- On *Wed, 24/11/10, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 /chan.j...@gmail.com/* wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Three Buddhist Practices To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 24 November, 2010, 8:47 AM Hi Anthony, 1. Yes, you are right。 Kensho『見性』 is resulted from sitting, which is a state before Samadhi『三摩地』。All these descriptions are resulted from sitting. No different from describing the taste of Apple. 2. Don't know what you were trying to say. 3. Heart is everything you were talking about. It is the integration of our mind and our physical being. Also mind is the collection of every cell in our body. Heart is our complete being. Heart is the center of our true spiritual being. 『靈 性』。 Please do not analyze, categorize, think in terms of words. Practice and you shall witness. Heart is extremely powerful. All words are just descriptions of various states of being. Studying these words, like ED was doing, is NOT practice. These two domains do not intersect. Let me share a phrase with you from one China man to another. 達 摩祖師於其血脈論中說：「見性為禪，若不見性，即非禪 也。」又說： 「性及是心，心即是佛，佛即是道，道即是禪。」 覺妙精明合十頂禮 禪宗第八十六代總教授師。 Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com/ http://www.heartchan.org http://www.heartchan.org/ On 11/23/2010 12:51 PM, Anthony Wu wrote: JMJM, Most of your remarks make sense. But there is a problem with the following: Most of us consider kensho a result of stillness, but you think it the other way around. Yes, the Sixth Patriarch did not write, because he was unable to. He was illiterate. That does not mean he did not want to. His famous poem was dictated by him and written by his fellow student on the wall, to counter a different idea by Shenxiu. On the other hand, he read with or without the help of others, including his teacher. His favorite reading was the Diamond Sutra. The third point is about the 'heart'. What do you think it is? The organ that can be transplanted? An emotional center that is used in the expression: I love my girl friend with all my heart? Or one of the centers where you can manipulate your 'chi' (heart chakra)? Anthony --- On *Tue, 23/11/10, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 /chan.j...@gmail.com http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=chan.j...@gmail.com/* wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=chan.j...@gmail.com Subject: [Zen] Three Buddhist Practices To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 23 November, 2010, 9:20 AM Hi All, The three fundamental Buddhist practices is Discipline, Meditation, Wisdom. In Pali, they are sila, samadhi, panna, or translated into morality, stillness, wisdom. Word wise, jhana and samadhi and stillness are the same. Morality and discipline are the same. Some of you may disagree about this same. They are the same in practice. They are different only in our heads. As you know, Chan is not taught through words. Chan is about practice. Let me explain. My Teacher calls the first practice purification. When our body and mind become pure, we automatically disciplined and moral. I call the first practice detox. Detox from all our habits - habitual concepts, habitual actions, habitual food, habitual life style. It is like a reboot. When we reach this clean state of being, then we reach samadhi, jhana, stillness or just Ding, as we call it in our school.
Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
Hi Ed, Yes, which is the cause of most sufferings. siska -Original Message- From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 03:26:52 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas Hi siska, Exactly! Equivalently, Bill might say it's simply a not-flowing with the way things are in the here and now. --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_...@... wrote: Hi Ed, Contrary individuals, in their normal state, are the best teachers - provided one is ready for the teachings. Reminds me of this: Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves (Carl Jung). siska
Re: [Zen] Three Buddhist Practices
ED/JMJM, I think JM means kensho is prior to samadhi, which is way before satori. JM's position is unique. Anthony --- On Thu, 25/11/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Three Buddhist Practices To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 25 November, 2010, 8:56 AM JMJM, Do you have a reference to support you position that kensho is prior to satori? Thanks, ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wu...@... wrote: JMJM, You say: Kensho is resulted from sitting, which is a state before Samadhi I think kensho results from sitting and it is a state after samadhi. That is what most people think. If you think otherwise, perhaps you had a unique experience. I bow back to you. Anthony
Re: [Zen] New Member
ED, You say: if babies had no egos, the only babies who survived for more than a few days would be 'buddhas' - and the population of human buddhas on this earth would be nil. --ED Is there any logic in saying that? For someone of low intelligence, if the said babies survive, the population of worldly buddhas will expand dramatically. Anthony --- On Thu, 25/11/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] New Member To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 25 November, 2010, 9:33 AM Lana, The way in which babies normally and naturally behave is to be obsessed with 'I/me/mine' (it's ego), with no regard whatsoever for the needs of its mother or anyone else - and without which attitude it would not survive. In short, if babies had no egos, the only babies who survived for more than a few days would be 'buddhas' - and the population of human buddhas on this earth would be nil. --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Lana M. Gibbons lana.m.gibb...@... wrote: No, Thank You. I already have much of the infant's mentality, the lack of duality, the awareness, the no-mind - to discard all of what I have learned so far would be to discard my true self. The typical five year old has many concepts and ideas, they are possessive, materialistic, extreme in their sense of duality, some even expect others to serve them - that is nothing I strive towards being. If all children naturally developed as Buddhas, there would be no need for Buddhism to exist. -Lana
Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
ED/Bill, I think 'single-minded sitting' reflects accurately the meaning of shikantaza. Others are derivatives. Anthony --- On Thu, 25/11/10, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 25 November, 2010, 9:52 AM Anthony, Both you and Bill are 'right'. --ED Shikantaza is a Japanese term for zazen introduced by Rujing and associated most with the Soto school of Zen Buddhism, but which also is the base of all Zen disciplines. According to Dôgen Zenji, shikantaza i.e. resting in a state of brightly alert attention that is free of thoughts, directed to no object, and attached to no particular content—is the highest or purest form of zazen, zazen as it was practiced by all the buddhas of the past. The modern Japanese Zen master, Hakuun Ryôko Yasutani says: Shikantaza is the mind of someone facing death. Let us imagine that you are engaged in a duel of swordsmanship of the kind that used to take place in ancient Japan. As you face your opponent you are unceasingly watchful, set, ready. Were you to relax your vigilance even momentarily, you would be cut down instantly. A crowd gathers to see the fight. Since you are not blind you see them from the corner of your eye, and since you are not deaf you hear them. But not for an instant is your mind captured by these impressions. (Introductory Lectures on Zen Training, Kapleau) The term is believed to have been first used by Dôgen's teacher Tiantong Rujing, and it literally means, nothing but (shikan) precisely (da) sitting (za). In other words Dôgen means by this, doing only zazen whole-heartedly or single-minded sitting. Shikantaza implies just sitting, and according to author James Ishmael Ford, Some trace the root of this word to the pronunciation of the Pâli vipassana, though this is far from certain. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shikantaza --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wu...@... wrote: Bill, As I already said, shikantaza denotes 'only sit'. The rest are derived meanings. For you the derivative of shikantaza is clear mind. Anthony
RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book
whether their conscience suffered. On the other hand, Hitler would have continued his nightmares without killing 10 million Jews. Like you said regarding the SS, so many people went along with him. I don't think all of them had nightmares. If so, the war deaths might have been cut in half. So we need a deterrent against atrocities, and afterlife retribution and religios hell are effective ones. That is why somebody says (do you remember who it is?) that even if God did not exist, we should create one. Anthony from the Land of the Red Guard --- On Sun, 21/11/10, ChrisAustinLane ch...@austin-lane.net wrote: From: ChrisAustinLane ch...@austin-lane.net Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Cc: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, 21 November, 2010, 9:19 AM Thanks, Chris Austin-Lane Sent from a cell phone On Nov 20, 2010, at 13:03, Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg wrote: Bill, Chris' theory applies to you and Chris himself, but not to someone like Hitler or Pol Pot. They committed atrocities without compunction. No suffering in any part of their bodies and minds. Anthony That seems like a pretty strong claim. What is the evidence for that theory about their lack of suffering? I have read at least once that Hitler (Alice Miller, some essay about the roots of adult violence in the cruelty of childhood) suffered nightmares many nights where he relived some childhood beating, determined not to cry this time. Somewhat at a tangent, part of the horror of the 20th c genocides is that so many people in the societies went along with it. The puzzle isn't Hitler so much as the SS. Anyways, Hitler and Pol Pot are dead and will never be a part of my current moment, so I have even less reason to speculate whether my experience is true for them than whether it is true for my Gov't representatives. Generally, the question of what others should do doesn't come before me, only whether I am about to stub my toe or not. __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5637 (20101121) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5637 (20101121) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5639 (20101122) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5640 (20101122) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5640 (20101122) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5640 (20101122) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5640 (20101122) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5643 (20101123) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5643 (20101123) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5643 (20101123) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5646 (20101124) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5646 (20101124) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5646 (20101124) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
