[Zen] Re: spirituality and trust
Merle, quoting "> so... now we know i have soul.." There was never a doubt. And, now we know that your profession of soul is along the lines of James Brown's profession of soul; and not that of Aquinas, Augustine, or Socrates. As you found last week in your reading, Merle, Original Buddhadharma notes "Three Marks of Existence", shown by all things: Impermanence; Suffering; No-Self. Everything changes; nothing "lasts". Things are ultimately unsatisfactory; we suffer. There's no self, either (again, nothing lasts). Zen Buddhism does not teach these things explicitly. It teaches methods of practice, and Zen practice-places compassionately set up a safe environment in which to learn the practice(s) together. But Zen Buddhism is built on the early Buddhist teachings and realizations, and is formed by them. We can leave aside the "Buddhism" of Zen Buddhism if we please, as everyone on this forum knows and admits. And we can practice. When we practice, what we will re-discover ourselves, and come to embody in our awakening, are the clear and basic discoveries and realizations of the Buddha, which are also known as the Teachings, the Dharma. For example, the teaching above of the Three Marks of Existence. The self-lessness or soul-lessness is like the "Inter-Being" taught by Thich Nhat Hanh. A flower is made of non-flower elements: water, sunshine, air, and earth. A flower has no self. No soul. When I compost it, it goes back to earth, even if I've kept a photo of the flower, made a drawing of it, or, in my case, a painting. The photo is not the flower, nor the essence of the flower. There is nothing to hold onto, and nowhere to go, nowhere to stay. Form morphs endlessly, that's what it's good at and what it does. It's the exemplar of shape-shifting. That's my soulful presentation of Soul-lessness. Now, to listen to James Brown's "Popcorn". --Joe > Merle Lester wrote: > > so... now we know i have soul.. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: spirituality and trust
Merle, Best. Practice. --Joe > Merle Lester wrote: > > so... now we know i have soul.. > > though some of us say we do not..and that's ok...you don't need to actually > find it if you cannot.. try harder > > i am tolerant i accept...does that mean that i cannot be a zen buddhist > too?... < snip > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Spirituality
Coming from a Christian background my understanding of Zen as far as I have learned is that it is by its very nature possible to combine/rationalise it with other religions. There are authorised Zen masters active in the Christian church for example. Only the most exclusivist traditions of the Abrahamic faiths forbid this as a path, and I have not found any Bhuddist tradition, especially not Zen that advises against it. On the contrary, my understanding is that the Mahayana tradition in particular discourages abandoning other faiths unless the devotee has fully explored them. The Dalai Lama has said as much. The Bhuddist Dharma in general does not as a first priority attempt to explain the nature and mechanism of Divine Will. It is instead primarily a remedy for suffering. Since the relief of suffering is also an aspiration of all three Abrahamic faiths, there is scope for incorporating the techniques of Zen into the spirituality of these faiths. --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Serge Blais <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > (Wrong button previous post, sorry) > > There are many paths to get to the top of the > mountain, but if you keep jumping from one path to > another one, you'll never get anywhere. > > Some people can reconcile following more than one > path, but they are few that can actually do it. > > We all "believe" that the end up to the same place. > But how many have reached the top and can actually > tell us that any path will get us to the same place? > > My view is, take your path and follow it, regardless > of anyone else is saying. This may fall into an > organized group, it may not. > > Serge > > > > You know what else is cool, is that in Hebrew the > > word for Spirit > > is > > > the same for the word for "wind." We can think of > > "wind" as breath > > > if we want. It all comes back to the breath! > > > > > > > It's a "stretch" all right. I find the "Buddhism > > teaches the same > > thing as Christianity" idea an exercise in political > > correctness that > > is corrosive to the teachings in both traditions. > > They get watered > > down to the least common denomonator. I think we > > should just let > > each tradition speak for itself. > > > > Ian > > > __ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/zAINmC/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/S27xlB/TM ~-> Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Zen] Re: Spirituality - Just Sit
If I may add to Bill's list of samsara -- every word in this discussion list. :-)Good stuff. Thank you.Donald---Bill Smart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Recently Donald and John Davis exchanged: Donald: >> I don't know the term "samsarah" please help. John: >Sanskrit for delusion or illusion, I'm not sure which...But in Japanese Zen (and >Korean) defeating it is the goal of meditation. When you defeat samsarah, you reach >kensho or enlightenment...Or so I recall from "The Three Pillars of Zen"... I agree with John. I've always seen 'samsara' translated as 'delusion'. I've like the analogy of buddha nature described as a diamond which is covered by layers and layers of mud. Zen is the process of pealing off the layers of mud to reveal the diamond. The mud is samsara. The 'stickiness' of the mud is karma. Zazen is like soaking the ball of mud in water to dissolve the mud. Other techniques, like koans, are like hitting the ball of mud to dislodge big chunks all at once. 'Kensho' is like breaking off enough of the mud to reveal a glimpse of the diamond. Various levels of 'enlightenment' are revealing more and more of the diamond. A 'bodhisattva' is someone who has completely freed the diamond, polished it and displays it for the benefit of all sentient beings. A 'buddha' no longer clings to this diamond. Examples of samsara are the concepts of 'self', 'chakras', 'Daoism', 'Buddhism', 'Lin Chi Chan', 'zen', 'kensho', 'enlightenment', and of course 'buddha' and 'buddha nature'. ..Bill! ** Scanned by VisNetic MailScan for SMTP Servers. Visit http://www.deerfield.com/products/visnetic_mailscan. ** Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less. __._,_.___ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "Zen_Forum" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. __,_._,___
RE: [Zen] Re: Spirituality - Just Sit
Recently Donald and John Davis exchanged: Donald: >> I don't know the term "samsarah" please help. John: >Sanskrit for delusion or illusion, I'm not sure which...But in Japanese Zen (and >Korean) defeating it is the goal of meditation. When you defeat samsarah, you reach >kensho or enlightenment...Or so I recall from "The Three Pillars of Zen"... I agree with John. I've always seen 'samsara' translated as 'delusion'. I've like the analogy of buddha nature described as a diamond which is covered by layers and layers of mud. Zen is the process of pealing off the layers of mud to reveal the diamond. The mud is samsara. The 'stickiness' of the mud is karma. Zazen is like soaking the ball of mud in water to dissolve the mud. Other techniques, like koans, are like hitting the ball of mud to dislodge big chunks all at once. 'Kensho' is like breaking off enough of the mud to reveal a glimpse of the diamond. Various levels of 'enlightenment' are revealing more and more of the diamond. A 'bodhisattva' is someone who has completely freed the diamond, polished it and displays it for the benefit of all sentient beings. A 'buddha' no longer clings to this diamond. Examples of samsara are the concepts of 'self', 'chakras', 'Daoism', 'Buddhism', 'Lin Chi Chan', 'zen', 'kensho', 'enlightenment', and of course 'buddha' and 'buddha nature'. ..Bill! ** Scanned by VisNetic MailScan for SMTP Servers. Visit http://www.deerfield.com/products/visnetic_mailscan. ** Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Spirituality - Just Sit
Hi John Yes my guess would be that Dharma Wheels and other internal body enregetics are of Taoist influence. This is not necessarily bad if handled well. I personally feel that much of Zen especially its Japanese and Korean varieties have lost touch with the energy arts that were part of the context of Chan pracitice in China. My teacher Sheng yen teaches a series of body movements that we practice durning retreats and in daliy pracitce. However these arts are only aids to meditation. They enable meditation not by producing specific energy states--cosmic orbits, spinning wheels etc--but by energizing, relaxing the body and unifying body and mind. This condition supports meditation. They are not ends in themselves and should not become distractions. Tell me more about yuor body energy pracitces. Here's a question: Where is your practice when your Dharma Wheels fall off In the Dharma Alan --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, donald hwong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Hi John, > > Thank you for your detailed response. > > What is IRL? > > Donald - I rather be just Donald. > > PS. JMJM bears heavy responsibility for carrying the karma of other sentient beings. Besides, it is very difficult to maintain an "integrated session" between a teacher and students. Meaning, teacher is often tempted to make a statement. If not careful, this statement often results in the creation of dualistic division between him and his students. > > > > John Davis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Donald H courteously replied: > > > I am just sharing as is and not emphasizing nor categorizing. > > I understand. > > > The key point is her "new" experience, while she is not expecting and not following > > any kind of methodology. > > This makes sense, and is a common side-effect of opening of the "dharma eye". > > > I don't know the term "samsarah" please help. > > Sanskrit for delusion or illusion, I'm not sure which...But in Japanese Zen (and > Korean) defeating it is the goal of meditation. When you defeat samsarah, you reach > kensho or enlightenment...Or so I recall from "The Three Pillars of Zen"... > > > As to the sensing and sharing the discomfort of others are experienced by most of > > our diligent practitioners. > > Yes...Also a sign of spiritual growth or some such... > > > Based on her description, there seems no "frequent or constant glimpse". I believe > > that she was just overwhelmed. And she is much content in sitting long hours now. > > I'll bet. I sure was when this happened to me...No, not constant and not even > frequent...In my case, just on occasion and quite "out of the blue". My point is all of > the teachers I've encountered both IRL and in books or online urge students not to > cling to these...The object is not to create more psychics, but to train the mind to > see beyond what we normally see. Or so they say (I'm just paraphraising). :) > > > Our "Dharma Wheel" is similar to the chakra, but may not be excactly the same. I > > suspect that we had strong Daoist influence. Like FengShui and Accupuncture. I have > > not had the chance to dig any further. But they work great for our practitioners and > > myself, especially practiced together with the 36 Motion Chan from BodhiDharma. > > I think I get it. I was thinking about "prayer wheels" like the Tibetans use. > > > I suspect there are a lot of differences yet to be discovered. Chinese Chan were > > destroyed in Communist China and has a very short history in the US. Our school has > > not begin to teach in the US yet. So far most of our practitioners are from Taiwan > > and learned there. > > Ok, I understand...You are re-starting a tradition > > > And yes, I am honored to be ordained by a Chinese LinChi Chan Master. I don't > > consider myself any different. I am learning like everyone else. With this Dharma > > honor, I actually have to practice and study a little harder. Meaning, my finger > > works only some of the time, if it does work at all. :-D > > I hear ya. I've been offline a lot practicing IRL...As to rebuilding the Lin Chi > school, I'm sure there are works here in the US that would serve you, that you can't > get on paper in China but could get via the net...And I'm sure there are more than > enough Zen Rebels here in the West that can get them for you. :) > > > I use my Dharma name of JMJM only for paying deep respect to Dharma I was taught and > > transmit the Dharma blessing to others. > > This is good... > > > Let me know if you have any questions or comments. > > I'm sure that there are more than a few waiting to ask away. :) > > Namaste, > > Gassho, > John - who has no dharma name... > > Ki is extending, > John Davis > > "Let us have a Universal Mind > that loves and protects all creation > and helps all things grow and develop. > To unify mind and body and become One with the Universe
Re: [Zen] Re: Spirituality - Just Sit
Hi John,Thank you for your detailed response.What is IRL?Donald - I rather be just Donald. PS. JMJM bears heavy responsibility for carrying the karma of other sentient beings. Besides, it is very difficult to maintain an "integrated session" between a teacher and students. Meaning, teacher is often tempted to make a statement. If not careful, this statement often results in the creation of dualistic division between him and his students.John Davis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Donald H courteously replied: > I am just sharing as is and not emphasizing nor categorizing. I understand. > The key point is her "new" experience, while she is not expecting and not following > any kind of methodology. This makes sense, and is a common side-effect of opening of the "dharma eye". > I don't know the term "samsarah" please help. Sanskrit for delusion or illusion, I'm not sure which...But in Japanese Zen (and Korean) defeating it is the goal of meditation. When you defeat samsarah, you reach kensho or enlightenment...Or so I recall from "The Three Pillars of Zen"... > As to the sensing and sharing the discomfort of others are experienced by most of > our diligent practitioners. Yes...Also a sign of spiritual growth or some such... > Based on her description, there seems no "frequent or constant glimpse". I believe > that she was just overwhelmed. And she is much content in sitting long hours now. I'll bet. I sure was when this happened to me...No, not constant and not even frequent...In my case, just on occasion and quite "out of the blue". My point is all of the teachers I've encountered both IRL and in books or online urge students not to cling to these...The object is not to create more psychics, but to train the mind to see beyond what we normally see. Or so they say (I'm just paraphraising). :) > Our "Dharma Wheel" is similar to the chakra, but may not be excactly the same. I > suspect that we had strong Daoist influence. Like FengShui and Accupuncture. I have > not had the chance to dig any further. But they work great for our practitioners and > myself, especially practiced together with the 36 Motion Chan from BodhiDharma. I think I get it. I was thinking about "prayer wheels" like the Tibetans use. > I suspect there are a lot of differences yet to be discovered. Chinese Chan were > destroyed in Communist China and has a very short history in the US. Our school has > not begin to teach in the US yet. So far most of our practitioners are from Taiwan > and learned there. Ok, I understand...You are re-starting a tradition > And yes, I am honored to be ordained by a Chinese LinChi Chan Master. I don't > consider myself any different. I am learning like everyone else. With this Dharma > honor, I actually have to practice and study a little harder. Meaning, my finger > works only some of the time, if it does work at all. :-D I hear ya. I've been offline a lot practicing IRL...As to rebuilding the Lin Chi school, I'm sure there are works here in the US that would serve you, that you can't get on paper in China but could get via the net...And I'm sure there are more than enough Zen Rebels here in the West that can get them for you. :) > I use my Dharma name of JMJM only for paying deep respect to Dharma I was taught and > transmit the Dharma blessing to others. This is good... > Let me know if you have any questions or comments. I'm sure that there are more than a few waiting to ask away. :) Namaste, Gassho, John - who has no dharma name... Ki is extending, John Davis "Let us have a Universal Mind that loves and protects all creation and helps all things grow and develop. To unify mind and body and become One with the Universe is the ultimate purpose of our study." -- Koichi Tohei Sensei "Masakatsu - Righteous victory, proper attitude Agatsu - Victory over self Katsuhayahi - Victory over speed of light, doing things so perfectly that time is no longer a factor" -- Akira Tohei Sensei, no relation to the above. This from an interview in www.aikidoonline.com/ . "Beware the Medical-Industrial Complex!" -- John Davis Visit my webstore: http://eismembers.com/member/DavisDryGoodsandEmporium/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less. __._,_.___ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "Zen_Forum" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. __,_._,___
[Zen] Re: Spirituality - Just Sit
Donald H courteously replied: > I am just sharing as is and not emphasizing nor categorizing. I understand. > The key point is her "new" experience, while she is not expecting and not > following > any kind of methodology. This makes sense, and is a common side-effect of opening of the "dharma eye". > I don't know the term "samsarah" please help. Sanskrit for delusion or illusion, I'm not sure which...But in Japanese Zen (and Korean) defeating it is the goal of meditation. When you defeat samsarah, you reach kensho or enlightenment...Or so I recall from "The Three Pillars of Zen"... > As to the sensing and sharing the discomfort of others are experienced by > most of > our diligent practitioners. Yes...Also a sign of spiritual growth or some such... > Based on her description, there seems no "frequent or constant glimpse". I > believe > that she was just overwhelmed. And she is much content in sitting long hours > now. I'll bet. I sure was when this happened to me...No, not constant and not even frequent...In my case, just on occasion and quite "out of the blue". My point is all of the teachers I've encountered both IRL and in books or online urge students not to cling to these...The object is not to create more psychics, but to train the mind to see beyond what we normally see. Or so they say (I'm just paraphraising). :) > Our "Dharma Wheel" is similar to the chakra, but may not be excactly the > same. I > suspect that we had strong Daoist influence. Like FengShui and Accupuncture. > I have > not had the chance to dig any further. But they work great for our practitioners and > myself, especially practiced together with the 36 Motion Chan from BodhiDharma. I think I get it. I was thinking about "prayer wheels" like the Tibetans use. > I suspect there are a lot of differences yet to be discovered. Chinese Chan > were > destroyed in Communist China and has a very short history in the US. Our > school has > not begin to teach in the US yet. So far most of our practitioners are from Taiwan > and learned there. Ok, I understand...You are re-starting a tradition > And yes, I am honored to be ordained by a Chinese LinChi Chan Master. I don't > consider myself any different. I am learning like everyone else. With this > Dharma > honor, I actually have to practice and study a little harder. Meaning, my > finger > works only some of the time, if it does work at all. :-D I hear ya. I've been offline a lot practicing IRL...As to rebuilding the Lin Chi school, I'm sure there are works here in the US that would serve you, that you can't get on paper in China but could get via the net...And I'm sure there are more than enough Zen Rebels here in the West that can get them for you. :) > I use my Dharma name of JMJM only for paying deep respect to Dharma I was > taught and > transmit the Dharma blessing to others. This is good... > Let me know if you have any questions or comments. I'm sure that there are more than a few waiting to ask away. :) Namaste, Gassho, John - who has no dharma name... Ki is extending, John Davis "Let us have a Universal Mind that loves and protects all creation and helps all things grow and develop. To unify mind and body and become One with the Universe is the ultimate purpose of our study." -- Koichi Tohei Sensei "Masakatsu - Righteous victory, proper attitude Agatsu - Victory over self Katsuhayahi - Victory over speed of light, doing things so perfectly that time is no longer a factor" -- Akira Tohei Sensei, no relation to the above. This from an interview in www.aikidoonline.com/ . "Beware the Medical-Industrial Complex!" -- John Davis Visit my webstore: http://eismembers.com/member/DavisDryGoodsandEmporium/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Zen] Re: Spirituality - Just Sit
A deep bowl to you all. I am just sharing as is and not emphasizing nor categorizing.The key point is her "new" experience, while she is not expecting and not following any kind of methodology.I don't know the term "samsarah" please help. As to the sensing and sharing the discomfort of others are experienced by most of our diligent practitioners.Based on her description, there seems no "frequent or constant glimpse". I believe that she was just overwhelmed. And she is much content in sitting long hours now.Our "Dharma Wheel" is similar to the chakra, but may not be excactly the same. I suspect that we had strong Daoist influence. Like FengShui and Accupuncture. I have not had the chance to dig any further. But they work great for our practitioners and myself, especially practiced together with the 36 Motion Chan from BodhiDharma.I suspect there are a lot of differences yet to be discovered. Chinese Chan were destroyed in Communist China and has a very short history in the US. Our school has not begin to teach in the US yet. So far most of our practitioners are from Taiwan and learned there.And yes, I am honored to be ordained by a Chinese LinChi Chan Master. I don't consider myself any different. I am learning like everyone else. With this Dharma honor, I actually have to practice and study a little harder. Meaning, my finger works only some of the time, if it does work at all. :-DI use my Dharma name of JMJM only for paying deep respect to Dharma I was taught and transmit the Dharma blessing to others.Let me know if you have any questions or comments. Namaste,JMJMBill Smart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Over the past few days Donald and John exchanged: Donald: >>...[snip]...She also experiences glimpse of events. John: >...[snip]...Seeing glimpses of events is something >...[blasphemy about books snipped]... >that is regarded as samsarah. Can you assist me in this >dilema? Full-blown prescience is indeed Samsara. 'Glimpses', however are only Petite Sarah. However, I'm very interested to see what Donald has to say to this. ..Bill! ** Scanned by VisNetic MailScan for SMTP Servers. Visit http://www.deerfield.com/products/visnetic_mailscan. ** Do you Yahoo!? Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail Beta. __._,_.___ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "Zen_Forum" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. __,_._,___
RE: [Zen] Re: Spirituality - Just Sit
Over the past few days Donald and John exchanged: Donald: >>...[snip]...She also experiences glimpse of events. John: >...[snip]...Seeing glimpses of events is something >...[blasphemy about books snipped]... >that is regarded as samsarah. Can you assist me in this >dilema? Full-blown prescience is indeed Samsara. 'Glimpses', however are only Petite Sarah. However, I'm very interested to see what Donald has to say to this. ..Bill! ** Scanned by VisNetic MailScan for SMTP Servers. Visit http://www.deerfield.com/products/visnetic_mailscan. ** Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Spirituality - Just Sit
Donald H. posted: In our group, we have a Japanese ladied practicing with us. After three and half years, she asked me, "I am confused and not making progress. While I am observing my Dharma Wheels, I am also focusing on my belly breathing. I don't know which one I should focus on and my Dharma Wheels do not respond to me." I told her, "Just forget everything. Relax. Let your body talk to you." Two weeks later, she was so delighted to share with me, "Wow, all my ten Dharma Wheels are responding as well as my Fire, Water and Wind Routes." Now, not only she can sense and share the pain in others. She also experiences glimpse of events. == Ok, now you have my curiosity roused...In a previous post you signed yourself as a Rinzai teacher...Yet I don't recall any sect of Zen using Dharma Wheels or seeking paranormal phenomena...While the ability to sense and share pain in others is a valued asset in compassion...Seeing glimpses of events is something I read in one of those dreadful books we discussed that is regarded as samsarah. Can you assist me in this dilema? Gassho, John Ki is extending, John Davis "Let us have a Universal Mind that loves and protects all creation and helps all things grow and develop. To unify mind and body and become One with the Universe is the ultimate purpose of our study." -- Koichi Tohei Sensei "Masakatsu - Righteous victory, proper attitude Agatsu - Victory over self Katsuhayahi - Victory over speed of light, doing things so perfectly that time is no longer a factor" -- Akira Tohei Sensei, no relation to the above. This from an interview in www.aikidoonline.com/ . "Beware the Medical-Industrial Complex!" -- John Davis Visit my webstore: http://eismembers.com/member/DavisDryGoodsandEmporium/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: Spirituality
Yah, therefore, just sit, a hug, a stick, a yell, etc. are all there is needed. Words in this disucssion group only mess us up.. :-DDonalddkotschessa <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED]ps.com, donald hwong ...> wrote: > > Hello DavidK, > > This is good stuff. May I have your permission to quote some of these in our website? Go for it. The stuff I quoted is from the New Testament, "New Living Translation," which is a modern and less oppressive translation than the KJV. > Also you mentioned, "The "spirit" is the energy of mindfulness" > > Actually our school teaches that the life force and wisdom of the universe is pure energy. All we have to do is to sync with it. No need of sutras, teachings, KOAN, just proper meditaton technique. Everything else is for eviction of the mind. I know I'm repeating myself, but it's all just words to me. My main point is that it doesn't matter what you call it. Some Zen practitioners think that reality is ineffable, unexplainable, wordless, etc. Then they attach themselves to "innefable, unexplainable, wordless, etc." That becomes their definition of reality. It offends their delicate zen sensibilities to go around talking about the holy spirit, which is amusing. Often for those traumatized by a Judeo-christian upbringing, it digs up bitter feelings. They got into Zen to escape from all that.Oh, did I mention that by "they" I mean "me?" I realized that this kind of bitterness was an impediment to my practice, and that just sitting on a zafu and ignoring it wasn't helping. It became a kind of escapism. So I engaged in my practice a different way.I suspect a lot of people are in the same position but are hiding in their zazen. -DaveK Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less. __._,_.___ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "Zen_Forum" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. __,_._,___
Re: [Zen] Re: Spirituality - Just Sit
About sticking with a practice, I have the following story to share with you.In our group, we have a Japanese ladied practicing with us. After three and half years, she asked me, "I am confused and not making progress. While I am observing my Dharma Wheels, I am also focusing on my belly breathing. I don't know which one I should focus on and my Dharma Wheels do not respond to me." I told her, "Just forget everything. Relax. Let your body talk to you."Two weeks later, she was so delighted to share with me, "Wow, all my ten Dharma Wheels are responding as well as my Fire, Water and Wind Routes."Now, not only she can sense and share the pain in others. She also experiences glimpse of events.Diamond Sutra said, "All methods are like the dreams and bubble."As Bill emphasized, "Just sit", maybe the most effective.Namaste,JMJMdkotschessa <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED]ps.com, Serge Blais ...> wrote: > > > (Wrong button previous post, sorry) > > There are many paths to get to the top of the > mountain, but if you keep jumping from one path to > another one, you'll never get anywhere. > > Some people can reconcile following more than one > path, but they are few that can actually do it. > > We all "believe" that the end up to the same place. > But how many have reached the top and can actually > tell us that any path will get us to the same place? > > My view is, take your path and follow it, regardless > of anyone else is saying. This may fall into an > organized group, it may not. > > Serge I think it is important to pick a practice and stick with it. I am a Zen practitioner, regardless of what I read. I take all my reading, studying, doing whatever else I do to be a part of that practice. I'm not into creating some new religion where you wake up at 4:30 go to the zendo to sing Hallelujiah at the top of your lungs before chanting the heart sutra and then reading from the Torah. (Though that sounds like fun.) Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. __._,_.___ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "Zen_Forum" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. __,_._,___
[Zen] Re: Spirituality
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, donald hwong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Hello DavidK, > > This is good stuff. May I have your permission to quote some of these in our website? Go for it. The stuff I quoted is from the New Testament, "New Living Translation," which is a modern and less oppressive translation than the KJV. > Also you mentioned, "The "spirit" is the energy of mindfulness" > > Actually our school teaches that the life force and wisdom of the universe is pure energy. All we have to do is to sync with it. No need of sutras, teachings, KOAN, just proper meditaton technique. Everything else is for eviction of the mind. I know I'm repeating myself, but it's all just words to me. My main point is that it doesn't matter what you call it. Some Zen practitioners think that reality is ineffable, unexplainable, wordless, etc. Then they attach themselves to "innefable, unexplainable, wordless, etc." That becomes their definition of reality. It offends their delicate zen sensibilities to go around talking about the holy spirit, which is amusing. Often for those traumatized by a Judeo-christian upbringing, it digs up bitter feelings. They got into Zen to escape from all that. Oh, did I mention that by "they" I mean "me?" I realized that this kind of bitterness was an impediment to my practice, and that just sitting on a zafu and ignoring it wasn't helping. It became a kind of escapism. So I engaged in my practice a different way. I suspect a lot of people are in the same position but are hiding in their zazen. -DaveK Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Spirituality
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Serge Blais <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > (Wrong button previous post, sorry) > > There are many paths to get to the top of the > mountain, but if you keep jumping from one path to > another one, you'll never get anywhere. > > Some people can reconcile following more than one > path, but they are few that can actually do it. > > We all "believe" that the end up to the same place. > But how many have reached the top and can actually > tell us that any path will get us to the same place? > > My view is, take your path and follow it, regardless > of anyone else is saying. This may fall into an > organized group, it may not. > > Serge I think it is important to pick a practice and stick with it. I am a Zen practitioner, regardless of what I read. I take all my reading, studying, doing whatever else I do to be a part of that practice. I'm not into creating some new religion where you wake up at 4:30 go to the zendo to sing Hallelujiah at the top of your lungs before chanting the heart sutra and then reading from the Torah. (Though that sounds like fun.) Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: Spirituality
There are many paths to get to the top of the mountain, but if you keep jumping from one path to another one, you'll never get anywhere. > > You know what else is cool, is that in Hebrew the > word for Spirit > is > > the same for the word for "wind." We can think of > "wind" as breath > > if we want. It all comes back to the breath! > > > > It's a "stretch" all right. I find the "Buddhism > teaches the same > thing as Christianity" idea an exercise in political > correctness that > is corrosive to the teachings in both traditions. > They get watered > down to the least common denomonator. I think we > should just let > each tradition speak for itself. > > Ian __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: Spirituality
(Wrong button previous post, sorry) There are many paths to get to the top of the mountain, but if you keep jumping from one path to another one, you'll never get anywhere. Some people can reconcile following more than one path, but they are few that can actually do it. We all "believe" that the end up to the same place. But how many have reached the top and can actually tell us that any path will get us to the same place? My view is, take your path and follow it, regardless of anyone else is saying. This may fall into an organized group, it may not. Serge > > You know what else is cool, is that in Hebrew the > word for Spirit > is > > the same for the word for "wind." We can think of > "wind" as breath > > if we want. It all comes back to the breath! > > > > It's a "stretch" all right. I find the "Buddhism > teaches the same > thing as Christianity" idea an exercise in political > correctness that > is corrosive to the teachings in both traditions. > They get watered > down to the least common denomonator. I think we > should just let > each tradition speak for itself. > > Ian __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Zen] Re: Spirituality
On Wednesday, August 16, 2006 DaveK wrote: First, Bill! wrote: > >For a change, I agree with both of you. And then DaveK wrote: >I can not >see how you could hold this opinion at the same time as the one >you've expressed below. I was agreeing with you that there is a commonality between Judea/Christianity and Buddhism; and I was agreeing with Ian that there are also some fundamental differences - especially in the teaching concepts and methods. I do not suspect or agree that your remarks were made to be politically correct. I don't think that's one of your traits. Sorry, I should have been clearer. I attached the wrong excerpts from your two posts to my post. It was misleading. My bad. ..Bill! ** Scanned by VisNetic MailScan for SMTP Servers. Visit http://www.deerfield.com/products/visnetic_mailscan. ** Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Spirituality
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "rbs000" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "dkotschessa" > wrote: > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Smart" wrote: > > > > > > On Tuesday, August 15, 2006 DaveK, in response to Ian, wrote: > > > > > > Ian.. > > > >--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "rbs000" wrote: > > > >> It's a "stretch" all right. I find the "Buddhism teaches the > same > > > >> thing as Christianity" idea an exercise in political > correctness > > > >that > > > >> is corrosive to the teachings in both traditions. They get > > watered > > > >> down to the least common denomonator. I think we should just > let > > > >> each tradition speak for itself. > > > >> > > > >> Ian > > > > > > DaveK > > > >I think your viewpoint is unfortunate. > > > > > > For a change, I agree with both of you. > > > > Apologies for being presumptuous, but it appears you are saying > this > > to appear diplomatic. Do you think I am corrupting Buddhism and > > Christianity out of some need to be politically correct? I can not > > see how you could hold this opinion at the same time as the one > > you've expressed below. > > > > > I think by earnestly following the teachings of both Christianity > > and > > > Buddhism (and perhaps in fact most religions) you will eventually > > arrive at > > > the same place. > > > > > > Their teaching concepts and methods are different, sometimes even > > > contradictory; but I cannot help but think the fundamental > > realization of > > > their founders (in this case Jesus and Buddha) were the same. > This > > is > > > because that fundamental realization is a universal human > (sentient > > being?) > > > attribute and available to all. > > > > > > This is what I want to believe anyway. > > > > > > ..Bill! > > > > "The truth is one, the sages call it by many names." Say the Hindu > > something or other's. > > > > It's just different language to say the same thing. I happen to > > believe the language of Christianity is less direct, and leads a > lot > > of people astray, following abstractions rather than following > > skillful actions. But by looking at all the traditions that are > out > > there, the common thread emerges, and you can see what was intended. > > > > Their realization was the same, > > Okay - how have you come to know this directly for yourself - that > what you are calling "their realization" was the same? > > I'd ask Bill the same question, except he qualifies it with "I can't > help but think" which makes it more plain that it is merely opinion > making on his part. And he explicity ends with "that is what I'd > like to believe." > > But you say it like you know, so - how have you come to know this? > > Ian I think it goes without saying that everything I say is an opinion, so I don't feel the need to always qualify it. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Spirituality
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "dkotschessa" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Smart" wrote: > > > > On Tuesday, August 15, 2006 DaveK, in response to Ian, wrote: > > > > Ian.. > > >--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "rbs000" wrote: > > >> It's a "stretch" all right. I find the "Buddhism teaches the same > > >> thing as Christianity" idea an exercise in political correctness > > >that > > >> is corrosive to the teachings in both traditions. They get > watered > > >> down to the least common denomonator. I think we should just let > > >> each tradition speak for itself. > > >> > > >> Ian > > > > DaveK > > >I think your viewpoint is unfortunate. > > > > For a change, I agree with both of you. > > Apologies for being presumptuous, but it appears you are saying this > to appear diplomatic. Do you think I am corrupting Buddhism and > Christianity out of some need to be politically correct? I can not > see how you could hold this opinion at the same time as the one > you've expressed below. > > > I think by earnestly following the teachings of both Christianity > and > > Buddhism (and perhaps in fact most religions) you will eventually > arrive at > > the same place. > > > > Their teaching concepts and methods are different, sometimes even > > contradictory; but I cannot help but think the fundamental > realization of > > their founders (in this case Jesus and Buddha) were the same. This > is > > because that fundamental realization is a universal human (sentient > being?) > > attribute and available to all. > > > > This is what I want to believe anyway. > > > > ..Bill! > > "The truth is one, the sages call it by many names." Say the Hindu > something or other's. > > It's just different language to say the same thing. I happen to > believe the language of Christianity is less direct, and leads a lot > of people astray, following abstractions rather than following > skillful actions. But by looking at all the traditions that are out > there, the common thread emerges, and you can see what was intended. > > Their realization was the same, Okay - how have you come to know this directly for yourself - that what you are calling "their realization" was the same? I'd ask Bill the same question, except he qualifies it with "I can't help but think" which makes it more plain that it is merely opinion making on his part. And he explicity ends with "that is what I'd like to believe." But you say it like you know, so - how have you come to know this? Ian but Jesus had to express his > realization in the theology he had available to him at the time, > which was the Old Testament. > > Remember the phrase "all sentient beings" and consider carefully what > that means. That means everybody. Everybody is everybody. Lots of > people, isn't it? They're not all going to convert to Buddhism. So > what's a Bodhisattva to do? We could start a Dharma-Jihad and try to > convert everybody to Buddhism. Wanna start a new organization of > Buddhist fundamentalists and start blowing stuff up? > > I prefer to find the common ground and break down the barriers of > communication, get over all the pointless bitterness and > divisiveness, and get over ourselves. It's much slower than a Jihad > but that's my choice. > > -DaveK > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: Spirituality
Hello DavidK,This is good stuff. May I have your permission to quote some of these in our website?Also you mentioned, "The "spirit" is the energy of mindfulness"Actually our school teaches that the life force and wisdom of the universe is pure energy. All we have to do is to sync with it. No need of sutras, teachings, KOAN, just proper meditaton technique. Everything else is for eviction of the mind.Namaste,Donalddkotschessa <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: To draw a thread through the Judeo-Christian concept and Buddhism, I like the idea Thich Naht Hahn proposed in "Living Buddha, Living Christ." He basically equates "the holy spirit" to a person is mindful. I have been reading the new Testament and it actually fits rather well. Stretch your thinking a bit to accomodate the obvious differences in terminology: Romans 8: 9 But you are not controlled by your sinful nature. You are controlled by the Spirit if you have the Spirit of God living in you. (And remember that those who do not have the Spirit of Christ living in them do not belong to him at all.)10 And Christ lives within you, so even though your body will die because of sin, the Spirit gives you life* because you have been made right with God.11 The Spirit of God, who raised Jesus from the dead, lives in you... 8:12 Therefore, dear brothers and sisters, you have no obligation to do what your sinful nature urges you to do.13 For if you live by its dictates, you will die. But if through the power of the Spirit you put to death the deeds of your sinful nature, you will live. -- To me this is identical with the instructions given to us by the Buddha. Be mindful and do what is skillful. Don't do what is not skillful. The "spirit" is the energy of mindfulness. They call it a spirit, we just call it being mindful, or don't call it anything! You know what else is cool, is that in Hebrew the word for Spirit is the same for the word for "wind." We can think of "wind" as breath if we want. It all comes back to the breath! Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. __._,_.___ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "Zen_Forum" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. __,_._,___
[Zen] Re: Spirituality
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Smart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On Tuesday, August 15, 2006 DaveK, in response to Ian, wrote: > > Ian.. > >--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "rbs000" wrote: > >> It's a "stretch" all right. I find the "Buddhism teaches the same > >> thing as Christianity" idea an exercise in political correctness > >that > >> is corrosive to the teachings in both traditions. They get watered > >> down to the least common denomonator. I think we should just let > >> each tradition speak for itself. > >> > >> Ian > > DaveK > >I think your viewpoint is unfortunate. > > For a change, I agree with both of you. Apologies for being presumptuous, but it appears you are saying this to appear diplomatic. Do you think I am corrupting Buddhism and Christianity out of some need to be politically correct? I can not see how you could hold this opinion at the same time as the one you've expressed below. > I think by earnestly following the teachings of both Christianity and > Buddhism (and perhaps in fact most religions) you will eventually arrive at > the same place. > > Their teaching concepts and methods are different, sometimes even > contradictory; but I cannot help but think the fundamental realization of > their founders (in this case Jesus and Buddha) were the same. This is > because that fundamental realization is a universal human (sentient being?) > attribute and available to all. > > This is what I want to believe anyway. > > ..Bill! "The truth is one, the sages call it by many names." Say the Hindu something or other's. It's just different language to say the same thing. I happen to believe the language of Christianity is less direct, and leads a lot of people astray, following abstractions rather than following skillful actions. But by looking at all the traditions that are out there, the common thread emerges, and you can see what was intended. Their realization was the same, but Jesus had to express his realization in the theology he had available to him at the time, which was the Old Testament. Remember the phrase "all sentient beings" and consider carefully what that means. That means everybody. Everybody is everybody. Lots of people, isn't it? They're not all going to convert to Buddhism. So what's a Bodhisattva to do? We could start a Dharma-Jihad and try to convert everybody to Buddhism. Wanna start a new organization of Buddhist fundamentalists and start blowing stuff up? I prefer to find the common ground and break down the barriers of communication, get over all the pointless bitterness and divisiveness, and get over ourselves. It's much slower than a Jihad but that's my choice. -DaveK Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Zen] Re: Spirituality
On Tuesday, August 15, 2006 DaveK, in response to Ian, wrote: Ian.. >--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "rbs000" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> It's a "stretch" all right. I find the "Buddhism teaches the same >> thing as Christianity" idea an exercise in political correctness >that >> is corrosive to the teachings in both traditions. They get watered >> down to the least common denomonator. I think we should just let >> each tradition speak for itself. >> >> Ian DaveK >I think your viewpoint is unfortunate. For a change, I agree with both of you. I think by earnestly following the teachings of both Christianity and Buddhism (and perhaps in fact most religions) you will eventually arrive at the same place. Their teaching concepts and methods are different, sometimes even contradictory; but I cannot help but think the fundamental realization of their founders (in this case Jesus and Buddha) were the same. This is because that fundamental realization is a universal human (sentient being?) attribute and available to all. This is what I want to believe anyway. ..Bill! ** Scanned by VisNetic MailScan for SMTP Servers. Visit http://www.deerfield.com/products/visnetic_mailscan. ** Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Spirituality
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "rbs000" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > It's a "stretch" all right. I find the "Buddhism teaches the same > thing as Christianity" idea an exercise in political correctness that > is corrosive to the teachings in both traditions. They get watered > down to the least common denomonator. I think we should just let > each tradition speak for itself. > > Ian I think your viewpoint is unfortunate. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Spirituality
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "dkotschessa" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, donald hwong > wrote: > > > > Thank all 23 postings. > > > > I have some very interesting observation. > > > > It seems to me that spirituality is defined by most posts as > a "personal spiritual experience." And this experience is quite > different from one to the other. And everyone in the Zen community > seems to agree that there is spirituality in Zen. > > > > I have also learnt, as Adrian pointed out, Asian spirituality is > part of every day life, while Western separate the physical one from > the spiritual one. (i.e. I am going to be spiritual now) That is very > true, because western philosophers are not popular among common > Asians. Very few heard of Socrates to Sartre. Chinese don't live in > philosophical terminology. > > > > Chinese have heard of mostly LaoTzu, ChuangTzu, Confucius and > Buddha. They all contain some spirituality. No wonder this word > does not show up readily in China. > > > > Also, as Bill pointed out, I believe the word "spirituality" may be > Judeo-Christian in nature. The questioner is trying to compare the > two. Because in China, ghost stories, reincarnations, going to hell > are bed time stories. I grew up by listening to my grandma those > stories. Even those who probably don't have "personal spiritual > experience", still may believe or expect such experience. I come to > realize that basic Chinese culture is tainted with some spirituality. > Or you may call it superstition. > > > > So interesting to learn that one can live a certain life style and > don't have the word and awareness to describe it. > > > > Namaste, > > Donald > > > > > > - > > Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and > 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less. > > To draw a thread through the Judeo-Christian concept and Buddhism, I > like the idea Thich Naht Hahn proposed in "Living Buddha, Living > Christ." He basically equates "the holy spirit" to a person is > mindful. I have been reading the new Testament and it actually fits > rather well. Stretch your thinking a bit to accomodate the obvious > differences in terminology: > > Romans > 8: 9 But you are not controlled by your sinful nature. You are > controlled by the Spirit if you have the Spirit of God living in you. > (And remember that those who do not have the Spirit of Christ living > in them do not belong to him at all.)10 And Christ lives within you, > so even though your body will die because of sin, the Spirit gives > you life* because you have been made right with God.11 The Spirit of > God, who raised Jesus from the dead, lives in you... > > 8:12 Therefore, dear brothers and sisters, you have no obligation to > do what your sinful nature urges you to do.13 For if you live by its > dictates, you will die. But if through the power of the Spirit you > put to death the deeds of your sinful nature, you will live. > > - > > To me this is identical with the instructions given to us by the > Buddha. Be mindful and do what is skillful. Don't do what is not > skillful. The "spirit" is the energy of mindfulness. They call it a > spirit, we just call it being mindful, or don't call it anything! > > You know what else is cool, is that in Hebrew the word for Spirit is > the same for the word for "wind." We can think of "wind" as breath > if we want. It all comes back to the breath! > It's a "stretch" all right. I find the "Buddhism teaches the same thing as Christianity" idea an exercise in political correctness that is corrosive to the teachings in both traditions. They get watered down to the least common denomonator. I think we should just let each tradition speak for itself. Ian Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Spirituality
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, donald hwong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Thank all 23 postings. > > I have some very interesting observation. > > It seems to me that spirituality is defined by most posts as a "personal spiritual experience." And this experience is quite different from one to the other. And everyone in the Zen community seems to agree that there is spirituality in Zen. > > I have also learnt, as Adrian pointed out, Asian spirituality is part of every day life, while Western separate the physical one from the spiritual one. (i.e. I am going to be spiritual now) That is very true, because western philosophers are not popular among common Asians. Very few heard of Socrates to Sartre. Chinese don't live in philosophical terminology. > > Chinese have heard of mostly LaoTzu, ChuangTzu, Confucius and Buddha. They all contain some spirituality. No wonder this word does not show up readily in China. > > Also, as Bill pointed out, I believe the word "spirituality" may be Judeo-Christian in nature. The questioner is trying to compare the two. Because in China, ghost stories, reincarnations, going to hell are bed time stories. I grew up by listening to my grandma those stories. Even those who probably don't have "personal spiritual experience", still may believe or expect such experience. I come to realize that basic Chinese culture is tainted with some spirituality. Or you may call it superstition. > > So interesting to learn that one can live a certain life style and don't have the word and awareness to describe it. > > Namaste, > Donald > > > - > Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less. To draw a thread through the Judeo-Christian concept and Buddhism, I like the idea Thich Naht Hahn proposed in "Living Buddha, Living Christ." He basically equates "the holy spirit" to a person is mindful. I have been reading the new Testament and it actually fits rather well. Stretch your thinking a bit to accomodate the obvious differences in terminology: Romans 8: 9 But you are not controlled by your sinful nature. You are controlled by the Spirit if you have the Spirit of God living in you. (And remember that those who do not have the Spirit of Christ living in them do not belong to him at all.)10 And Christ lives within you, so even though your body will die because of sin, the Spirit gives you life* because you have been made right with God.11 The Spirit of God, who raised Jesus from the dead, lives in you... 8:12 Therefore, dear brothers and sisters, you have no obligation to do what your sinful nature urges you to do.13 For if you live by its dictates, you will die. But if through the power of the Spirit you put to death the deeds of your sinful nature, you will live. - To me this is identical with the instructions given to us by the Buddha. Be mindful and do what is skillful. Don't do what is not skillful. The "spirit" is the energy of mindfulness. They call it a spirit, we just call it being mindful, or don't call it anything! You know what else is cool, is that in Hebrew the word for Spirit is the same for the word for "wind." We can think of "wind" as breath if we want. It all comes back to the breath! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Spirituality
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, donald hwong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Hi all, > > I was often asked this question in the US, "Is there spirituality in Zen? If so, what is your experience?" > > Chinese do not ask such question, because there is no word equal to "spirituality". I suspect this is an English question or a cultural question. > > What can you share with me? > > Namaste, > Donald Sure, you can call Zen a kind of spirituality, if you'd like. You might even say that the experiences one has in zen practice are a union with some divine being. I don't personally need to add such descriptions, but I am not offended by somebody who wants to do so. There's nothing "in" or "out" of zen, but you can call it whatever you'd like. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
