RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
I didn't quite get it either. Are Ron and I the grimy kids, or the fathers in this story? And if so, would Ron be the kind-hearted father? I don't recall ever striking my kids like the first father, so I know it doesn't apply to me, however I also wasn't so neglectful as he was to just say a few words and then walk off. My kids cleaned their rooms because it was expected of them, and if they didn't do it, they were punished (groundings, etc). I see God doing the same thing. Yes, occasionally our actions create their own illness/punishment, but on many occasions, God brings his wrath down upon his children. If you don't believe it, just read the scriptures. As it is, the 2nd Coming is described as the Lord coming in red clothing to stomp the grapes of the vineyard with a fury. Yet, there is also a softer side to God, as he patiently works with each of us--as long as we are willing to be worked upon. So, portraying God as either a harsh taskmaster on the one hand or as a milquetoast on the other is to paint God as being two dimensional. He isn't either of these, yet is both of them. And as I raised my children, I used both methods. And as I work with those around me, I use both methods as necessary. I don't just sigh and lecture from the bedroom door. I step into the room, offer to help clean things up, and insist that it is cleaned. Gary Smith Ron Scott wrote: I'm lousy at parables. Please explain. -Original Message- From: Jonathan Scott [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 22, 2004 6:23 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! Grimy Teeth ©2004 by Jonathan Scott Once upon a time there were two boys and they were the best of friends. Unfortunately for both though, they were both about as lazy as they could be. They would wake each morning from under their two piles of never washed blankets to stand in the middles of their never cleaned rooms to look out the grimy panes of their never washed windows to see the clutter that filled their never tended yards. And they were each happy. The disgust of their environment apparently did not disgust them. And each of them lived their lives contentedly amidst the grime, the roaches and the disease. One day, one boy's father saw his son desperately coughing as he lay contentedly upon his gray and sickly bed and the father knew that his son would soon become even more sick and possibly die. He knew that if the boy did not clean his world now that he might not live much longer. And so, out of fear for his son's well being, the father began to yell and scream at him. HOW CAN YOU LIVE LIKE THIS? he yelled. ANIMALS ARE MORE KEMPT! YOU SHAME ME WITH YOUR LAZINESS! he screamed. The father then picked up his hand and struck the boy across his face and the boy fell to the ground in tears. The father then stood over the boy and threatened to strike him again if he did not change his ways. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. spoke the boy in absolute fear through his gray and grimy teeth. CLEAN THIS ROOM AND THIS WORLD NOW OR WHEN I RETURN I SHALL BEAT YOU TO PIECES! yelled and screamed the father. The father then stood and left the room...leaving the boy to sit on the ground sick with fear. And so, the boy stood and began to clean. He was afraid. On that same day, the other's boy's father came to his room to see the filth and grime and disease of his son. He also was amazed at the extent of the grime. But, because the son was yet healthy and not yet in danger, he knew that he could take his time to teach the boy. Son, this is not good. You cannot live this way. If you continue to live like this, you will catch some sort of disease and you might die. Son, I love you. Please stand up and clean. OK father. said the boy through grimy teeth. He then rolled over in his gray and stained bed and went back to sleep. The father was sad, but chose to let the boy choose his own life. He kicked aside the empty cans and cereal boxes and made his way to the door of the bedroom. The next day, the father returned to see the boy still in bed. On the boy's face there was a rash. And when the father entered, the boy seemed to not be able to lay comfortably amidst the garbage. His body seemed to be in pain. Son, the pain that you are feeling and that rash that is on your face both come from the garbage that you live amongst. If you clean, your body will heal. Please clean. I love you. The son, understanding somewhat the message of his father stood from his bed and began to clean. The father smiled and left. The first boy managed to clean his room before his father returned and therefore wasn't beaten to pieces by him. As you can probably guess, that boy never loved his father. He was too afraid of him to love him. And so he lived
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
It's not about either of you. You two were having a discussion about the difference between the law of Christ and the law of Moses. Ron's take seemed to be that the focus with Christ's plan was in forgiveness and repentance. Your take seemed to focus on the whole punishment aspect of the law of Moses. The part of the puzzle that I felt wasn't being discussed was that the punishments may not be punishments that God will be giving out personally, but rather punishments that natural consequences will be dealing out. Seeing the punishments in this way puts God as our defender and mentor rather than as some kind of a two-faced psycho out there telling us how much he loves us, but at the same time tossing out huge and cumbersome commandments for us to follow and happily tossing the disobedient into huge lakes of fire and brimstone. In my story, both of the fathers cared deeply for their children. But, because one of the sons was literally but unknowingly on his death bed, the urgency of it all demanded that his father resort to drastic measures to save him. What the father did may have looked overly harsh, but compared with an early death, it wasn't. At the very least, what the father did gave his son more time. I don't condone physical abuse of children. It was just for the sake of the allegory. The law of Moses was very definitely unpleasant and I couldn't think of a different way to portray it in the story. I didn't quite get it either. Are Ron and I the grimy kids, or the fathers in this story? And if so, would Ron be the kind-hearted father? I don't recall ever striking my kids like the first father, so I know it doesn't apply to me, however I also wasn't so neglectful as he was to just say a few words and then walk off. My kids cleaned their rooms because it was expected of them, and if they didn't do it, they were punished (groundings, etc). I see God doing the same thing. Yes, occasionally our actions create their own illness/punishment, but on many occasions, God brings his wrath down upon his children. If you don't believe it, just read the scriptures. As it is, the 2nd Coming is described as the Lord coming in red clothing to stomp the grapes of the vineyard with a fury. Yet, there is also a softer side to God, as he patiently works with each of us--as long as we are willing to be worked upon. So, portraying God as either a harsh taskmaster on the one hand or as a milquetoast on the other is to paint God as being two dimensional. He isn't either of these, yet is both of them. And as I raised my children, I used both methods. And as I work with those around me, I use both methods as necessary. I don't just sigh and lecture from the bedroom door. I step into the room, offer to help clean things up, and insist that it is cleaned. Gary Smith -- Jonathan Scott // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
At 05:24 PM 3/22/2004, Ron Scott wrote in response to Jim Cobabe: Equal protection is already afforded in our laws, for legitimate and traditional marriage. Nothing in the constitution envisions the degraded definition of marriage that encompasses any particular union of convenience, affection, devotion, or animal attraction. It seems that some equally thoughtful judges in Massachusetts and elsewhere disagree with you. By proposing the constitutional amendment, the proposers themselves and supporters indicate that they too don't agree with you. Obviously these thoughtful judges are simply wrong--in light of the Church's teachings on this subject, as well documented by Jim. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] . . . it is as much their [The Elders of Israel] duty to study correct political principles as well as religion, and to seek and know and comprehend the social and political interests of man, and to learn and be able to teach that which would be best calculated to promote the interests of the world.--John Taylor // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
-Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 10:10 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! At 05:24 PM 3/22/2004, Ron Scott wrote in response to Jim Cobabe: Equal protection is already afforded in our laws, for legitimate and traditional marriage. Nothing in the constitution envisions the degraded definition of marriage that encompasses any particular union of convenience, affection, devotion, or animal attraction. It seems that some equally thoughtful judges in Massachusetts and elsewhere disagree with you. By proposing the constitutional amendment, the proposers themselves and supporters indicate that they too don't agree with you. Obviously these thoughtful judges are simply wrong--in light of the Church's teachings on this subject, as well documented by Jim. Must I point out to you, of all people, that church teachings are not part of the U.S. Constitution, which is the guide that judges have pledged to support and uphold. It's quite obvious that the those who support the amendment also believe that the U.S. Constitution does not give judges sufficient guidance on the matter. Otherwise, an amendment would not be necessary. RBS // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
At 08:29 AM 3/23/2004, Ron Scott wrote: Obviously these thoughtful judges are simply wrong--in light of the Church's teachings on this subject, as well documented by Jim. Must I point out to you, of all people, that church teachings are not part of the U.S. Constitution, which is the guide that judges have pledged to support and uphold. It's quite obvious that the those who support the amendment also believe that the U.S. Constitution does not give judges sufficient guidance on the matter. Otherwise, an amendment would not be necessary. RBS Powers not given are powers denied. See the 10th Amendment: Quote The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. /Quote I do agree with you, that an amendment is not necessary. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] Moral Anarchy is the seedbed of Tyranny--R. W. (Bob) Lee // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
First, the father should be the same individual for both children. The difference being one child is willing to live a higher law, with the other needing to be prodded along. I didn't focus on the Law of Moses. I focused on eternal laws of God. You'll note that I not only quoted from the Old Testament, but also from the DC, which clearly is not Mosaic in nature. When Christ tells us in DC 19 to repent or suffer even as he did, regardless of whether the punishment is a natural cause or not, Christ set the bar. Repentance is a requirement of the Celestial Kingdom, and so is a requirement of Celestial Law. Seemingly, there is more mercy in the law of Christ than in the Mosaic Law. But this is only true on physical punishment. Spiritually, the requirements for Celestial glory is much higher than that for the Terrestrial (Mosaic Law) glory. So, to pretend that there are two fathers, when in reality there is one, doesn't work. Second, it is a matter of God giving a lower law to children who aren't ready to live the higher law. Of your own children, what is the age limit you give to drive a car? Are some allowed to stay up later than others? How about dating age? You see, even we give differing rules to our own children, based upon age and maturity. So also does God. While our smallest children may not understand the nuances of a lecture, they will understand physical disciplining, even if it is to stand them in a corner or timeout. Meanwhile, a more mature child may get enough out of just a discussion or request. We adjust the rules and how we mete them out according to maturity, ability and willingness to live them. With these as guidelines, I'd change your parable to one father of two boys. One boy is rather mature, while the other is childish. One requires a stern hand (not necessarily a swipe against the face), while the other follows closely the guidance given. The Father does show love to both children, and reminds them of it continually (even as the Lord told ancient Israel constantly through Isaiah and others). The younger child eventually learns from the chastising that there is a better way - obeying out of love, rather than fear. Gary Smith Jonathan Scott wrote: It's not about either of you. You two were having a discussion about the difference between the law of Christ and the law of Moses. Ron's take seemed to be that the focus with Christ's plan was in forgiveness and repentance. Your take seemed to focus on the whole punishment aspect of the law of Moses. The part of the puzzle that I felt wasn't being discussed was that the punishments may not be punishments that God will be giving out personally, but rather punishments that natural consequences will be dealing out. Seeing the punishments in this way puts God as our defender and mentor rather than as some kind of a two-faced psycho out there telling us how much he loves us, but at the same time tossing out huge and cumbersome commandments for us to follow and happily tossing the disobedient into huge lakes of fire and brimstone. In my story, both of the fathers cared deeply for their children. But, because one of the sons was literally but unknowingly on his death bed, the urgency of it all demanded that his father resort to drastic measures to save him. What the father did may have looked overly harsh, but compared with an early death, it wasn't. At the very least, what the father did gave his son more time. I don't condone physical abuse of children. It was just for the sake of the allegory. The law of Moses was very definitely unpleasant and I couldn't think of a different way to portray it in the story. I didn't quite get it either. Are Ron and I the grimy kids, or the fathers in this story? And if so, would Ron be the kind-hearted father? I don't recall ever striking my kids like the first father, so I know it doesn't apply to me, however I also wasn't so neglectful as he was to just say a few words and then walk off. My kids cleaned their rooms because it was expected of them, and if they didn't do it, they were punished (groundings, etc). I see God doing the same thing. Yes, occasionally our actions create their own illness/punishment, but on many occasions, God brings his wrath down upon his children. If you don't believe it, just read the scriptures. As it is, the 2nd Coming is described as the Lord coming in red clothing to stomp the grapes of the vineyard with a fury. Yet, there is also a softer side to God, as he patiently works with each of us--as long as we are willing to be worked upon. So, portraying God as either a harsh taskmaster on the one hand or as a milquetoast on the other is to paint God as being two dimensional. He isn't either of these, yet is both of them. And as I raised my children, I used both methods. And as I work with those around me, I use both methods as necessary. I don't
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
Just because a judge is an activist judge, does not make him a thoughtful one. Nor does it make him right. Nor does it mean he is following the Constitution. If they were to gage Constitutionality by the standard set by our Founding Fathers, they would have no question on the issue of homosexuality. In fact, they probably would have to reinstitute laws against it! It is my belief that the prophecy sometimes given to Joseph Smith, but definitely stated by Pres Benson, that the Constitution would hang by a thread and if it is to be saved it will be by the Elders of Israel, refers to homosexuality. John Adams and others have stated that the Constitution is for a moral people and none other. If we allow homosexuality to be normalized, then we will be giving up our moral clarity in exchange for a claim to freedom (in reality: licentiousness). We may as well claim freedom for molesting children and animals as to use this lame expression for homosexuality. Pres Packer once taught that we cannot use one virtue to beat up on another. Claims of freedom cannot be used to destroy other virtues, at least not without divine consequence. I believe the Church is standing up on this issue in many places because it is the key to saving the Constitution for a moral people, and for leaving it with some boundaries within which freedom can be enjoyed. Gary Smith Ron Scott wrote: -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 10:10 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! At 05:24 PM 3/22/2004, Ron Scott wrote in response to Jim Cobabe: Equal protection is already afforded in our laws, for legitimate and traditional marriage. Nothing in the constitution envisions the degraded definition of marriage that encompasses any particular union of convenience, affection, devotion, or animal attraction. It seems that some equally thoughtful judges in Massachusetts and elsewhere disagree with you. By proposing the constitutional amendment, the proposers themselves and supporters indicate that they too don't agree with you. Obviously these thoughtful judges are simply wrong--in light of the Church's teachings on this subject, as well documented by Jim. Must I point out to you, of all people, that church teachings are not part of the U.S. Constitution, which is the guide that judges have pledged to support and uphold. It's quite obvious that the those who support the amendment also believe that the U.S. Constitution does not give judges sufficient guidance on the matter. Otherwise, an amendment would not be necessary. RBS Gerald (Gary) Smith geraldsmith@ juno.com http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
But only if the current Constitutional powers are obeyed and honored. When we have mayors in San Francisco and elsewhere giving out marriage certificates in defiance of the law, then what piece of paper is there that can establish the law? And when judges overstep their proper role and legislate from the bench, then what happens if they ignore Congress? Or what happens if Congress does not have the cajones to moderate the courts? Pushing an amendment gives them reason to act on the lesser action of moderating the courts. Without the impetus given of an amendment, we have no pressure on Congress to act. So, even if it doesn't pass, or it takes years, I'm for the amendment going forth in discussion; if only to get Congress to do its duty. Gary Smith Steven Montgomery wrote: At 08:29 AM 3/23/2004, Ron Scott wrote: Obviously these thoughtful judges are simply wrong--in light of the Church's teachings on this subject, as well documented by Jim. Must I point out to you, of all people, that church teachings are not part of the U.S. Constitution, which is the guide that judges have pledged to support and uphold. It's quite obvious that the those who support the amendment also believe that the U.S. Constitution does not give judges sufficient guidance on the matter. Otherwise, an amendment would not be necessary. RBS Powers not given are powers denied. See the 10th Amendment: Quote The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. /Quote I do agree with you, that an amendment is not necessary. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] Moral Anarchy is the seedbed of Tyranny--R. W. (Bob) Lee Gerald (Gary) Smith geraldsmith@ juno.com http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
-Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 11:11 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! At 08:29 AM 3/23/2004, Ron Scott wrote: Obviously these thoughtful judges are simply wrong--in light of the Church's teachings on this subject, as well documented by Jim. Must I point out to you, of all people, that church teachings are not part of the U.S. Constitution, which is the guide that judges have pledged to support and uphold. It's quite obvious that the those who support the amendment also believe that the U.S. Constitution does not give judges sufficient guidance on the matter. Otherwise, an amendment would not be necessary. RBS Powers not given are powers denied. See the 10th Amendment Shall we now debate the implicit, if not explicit meanings of the Bill of Rights until the cows come home? grin In any event, I'm pleased we agree: the amendment is not necessary. Put on your rain slicker and galoshes. Stormy weather's ahead. g. RBS // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
-Original Message- From: Gerald Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 11:39 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! Just because a judge is an activist judge, does not make him a thoughtful one. I'm growing weary of the tiresome assumption that activist judge is a negative description. By definition any appellate judge worth his gavel is an activist judge because he is often asked to interpret constitutional law. I daresay that one man's activist judge is another's strict constitutionalist. I recommend the following: instead of tossing about meaningless catch phrases, spend more time explaining what you mean, demonstrating why a particular court's decision violates the spirit and intent of the U.S. Constitution. RBS // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
At 09:45 AM 3/23/2004, you wrote: But only if the current Constitutional powers are obeyed and honored. When we have mayors in San Francisco and elsewhere giving out marriage certificates in defiance of the law, then what piece of paper is there that can establish the law? And when judges overstep their proper role and legislate from the bench, then what happens if they ignore Congress? Or what happens if Congress does not have the cajones to moderate the courts? Pushing an amendment gives them reason to act on the lesser action of moderating the courts. Without the impetus given of an amendment, we have no pressure on Congress to act. So, even if it doesn't pass, or it takes years, I'm for the amendment going forth in discussion; if only to get Congress to do its duty. Gary Smith Well, even though I'm in favor of utilizing the power inherent in Congress vis a vis Article III, Section II of the United States Constitution to limit the jurisdiction of Federal Judges (And perhaps abolishing some Federal Courts altogether), and even though I think there are still problems with the amendment route, I did sign the petition urging passage of a Constitutional Marriage Amendment grin. So perhaps I'm just covering all the bases here. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] The only constant in the world is change--Karl Marx // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
-Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 3:54 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! At 09:45 AM 3/23/2004, you wrote: But only if the current Constitutional powers are obeyed and honored. When we have mayors in San Francisco and elsewhere giving out marriage certificates in defiance of the law, then what piece of paper is there that can establish the law? And when judges overstep their proper role and legislate from the bench, then what happens if they ignore Congress? Or what happens if Congress does not have the cajones to moderate the courts? Pushing an amendment gives them reason to act on the lesser action of moderating the courts. Without the impetus given of an amendment, we have no pressure on Congress to act. So, even if it doesn't pass, or it takes years, I'm for the amendment going forth in discussion; if only to get Congress to do its duty. Gary Smith Well, even though I'm in favor of utilizing the power inherent in Congress vis a vis Article III, Section II of the United States Constitution to limit the jurisdiction of Federal Judges (And perhaps abolishing some Federal Courts altogether), and even though I think there are still problems with the amendment route, I did sign the petition urging passage of a Constitutional Marriage Amendment grin. So perhaps I'm just covering all the bases here. Tell us how you feel about the amendment now that we know there's a move afoot to change the language? grin What's Wilkins reaction to same? This thing is beginning to feel like an election year stunt gone haywire. RBS // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
At 02:05 PM 3/23/2004, you wrote: Tell us how you feel about the amendment now that we know there's a move afoot to change the language? grin What's Wilkins reaction to same? This thing is beginning to feel like an election year stunt gone haywire. RBS The marriage amendment is doomed to failure. That's my opinion and how I feel. That's exactly why I support the never mentioned alternative--urging Congress to use their powers under article III, section 2 to limit the jurisdiction of federal courts. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] Far on the right, her dogs foul Scylla hides:Charybdis roaring on the left presides,And in her greedy whirlpool sucks the tides;Then spouts them from below: with fury driv'n,The waves mount up and wash the face of heav'n.But Scylla from her den, with open jaws,The sinking vessel in her eddy draws,Then dashes on the rocks--Virgil // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
Okay, how about 200+ years of laws being interpreted a certain way, only to have judges granting new rights to certain minority groups. There are a lot of black ministers meeting in Atlanta today to fight the gay marriage acts in Georgia. They are demanding that gays not equate their movement with Civil Rights, since gays are not being forced to drink from a separate water fountain, sit in the back of the bus, or prevented from voting. Nor have they been enslaved. When judges ignore the rights of the majority, in favor of only the minority, then we have a serious problem. Gary Smith Ron Scott wrote: -Original Message- From: Gerald Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 11:39 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! Just because a judge is an activist judge, does not make him a thoughtful one. I'm growing weary of the tiresome assumption that activist judge is a negative description. By definition any appellate judge worth his gavel is an activist judge because he is often asked to interpret constitutional law. I daresay that one man's activist judge is another's strict constitutionalist. I recommend the following: instead of tossing about meaningless catch phrases, spend more time explaining what you mean, demonstrating why a particular court's decision violates the spirit and intent of the U.S. Constitution. RBS Gerald (Gary) Smith geraldsmith@ juno.com http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
Black ministers should speak their minds. However, as the discussion was about activist judges I will point out that major civil rights decisions were written by activist judges. The nation is the better for their activity. I'll stick by my assertion that activist goes with the assignment to the Supreme Court and appellate courts. On the other subject, please give me an example of the 200-year history of laws/legal interpretations that define marriage. Finally, I agree with the black ministers: gays are not entitled to be classified as a minority group. Nevertheless, individuals are also entitled to seek the full protection of the law, as Steven will confirm. RBS -Original Message- From: Gerald Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 4:26 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! Okay, how about 200+ years of laws being interpreted a certain way, only to have judges granting new rights to certain minority groups. There are a lot of black ministers meeting in Atlanta today to fight the gay marriage acts in Georgia. They are demanding that gays not equate their movement with Civil Rights, since gays are not being forced to drink from a separate water fountain, sit in the back of the bus, or prevented from voting. Nor have they been enslaved. When judges ignore the rights of the majority, in favor of only the minority, then we have a serious problem. Gary Smith Ron Scott wrote: -Original Message- From: Gerald Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 11:39 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! Just because a judge is an activist judge, does not make him a thoughtful one. I'm growing weary of the tiresome assumption that activist judge is a negative description. By definition any appellate judge worth his gavel is an activist judge because he is often asked to interpret constitutional law. I daresay that one man's activist judge is another's strict constitutionalist. I recommend the following: instead of tossing about meaningless catch phrases, spend more time explaining what you mean, demonstrating why a particular court's decision violates the spirit and intent of the U.S. Constitution. RBS Gerald (Gary) Smith geraldsmith@ juno.com http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
I think we should go for both of them. If one fails, we have an alternative method. As it is, there probably will not be a perfect solution, but in this case some solution may be better than allowing SSM from proliferating. Gary Smith Steven Montgomery wrote: At 02:05 PM 3/23/2004, you wrote: Tell us how you feel about the amendment now that we know there's a move afoot to change the language? grin What's Wilkins reaction to same? This thing is beginning to feel like an election year stunt gone haywire. RBS The marriage amendment is doomed to failure. That's my opinion and how I feel. That's exactly why I support the never mentioned alternative--urging Congress to use their powers under article III, section 2 to limit the jurisdiction of federal courts. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] Far on the right, her dogs foul Scylla hides:Charybdis roaring on the left presides,And in her greedy whirlpool sucks the tides;Then spouts them from below: with fury driv'n,The waves mount up and wash the face of heav'n.But Scylla from her den, with open jaws,The sinking vessel in her eddy draws,Then dashes on the rocks--Virgil Gerald (Gary) Smith geraldsmith@ juno.com http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
-Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 4:20 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! At 02:05 PM 3/23/2004, you wrote: Tell us how you feel about the amendment now that we know there's a move afoot to change the language? grin What's Wilkins reaction to same? This thing is beginning to feel like an election year stunt gone haywire. RBS The marriage amendment is doomed to failure. That's my opinion and how I feel. That's exactly why I support the never mentioned alternative--urging Congress to use their powers under article III, section 2 to limit the jurisdiction of federal courts. Dang, the right and the left could meet in the middle on this one. How novel. RBS // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
First, the father should be the same individual for both children. The difference being one child is willing to live a higher law, with the other needing to be prodded along. Ok. I agree. Although my guess is that that will make the story a little more bewildering. I didn't focus on the Law of Moses. I focused on eternal laws of God. You'll note that I not only quoted from the Old Testament, but also from the DC, which clearly is not Mosaic in nature. When Christ tells us in DC 19 to repent or suffer even as he did, regardless of whether the punishment is a natural cause or not, Christ set the bar. Repentance is a requirement of the Celestial Kingdom, and so is a requirement of Celestial Law. Seemingly, there is more mercy in the law of Christ than in the Mosaic Law. But this is only true on physical punishment. Spiritually, the requirements for Celestial glory is much higher than that for the Terrestrial (Mosaic Law) glory. So, to pretend that there are two fathers, when in reality there is one, doesn't work. Second, it is a matter of God giving a lower law to children who aren't ready to live the higher law. Of your own children, what is the age limit you give to drive a car? Are some allowed to stay up later than others? How about dating age? You see, even we give differing rules to our own children, based upon age and maturity. So also does God. While our smallest children may not understand the nuances of a lecture, they will understand physical disciplining, even if it is to stand them in a corner or timeout. Meanwhile, a more mature child may get enough out of just a discussion or request. We adjust the rules and how we mete them out according to maturity, ability and willingness to live them. With these as guidelines, I'd change your parable to one father of two boys. One boy is rather mature, while the other is childish. One requires a stern hand (not necessarily a swipe against the face), while the other follows closely the guidance given. The Father does show love to both children, and reminds them of it continually (even as the Lord told ancient Israel constantly through Isaiah and others). The younger child eventually learns from the chastising that there is a better way - obeying out of love, rather than fear. Ok. Gary Smith Jonathan Scott wrote: It's not about either of you. You two were having a discussion about the difference between the law of Christ and the law of Moses. Ron's take seemed to be that the focus with Christ's plan was in forgiveness and repentance. Your take seemed to focus on the whole punishment aspect of the law of Moses. The part of the puzzle that I felt wasn't being discussed was that the punishments may not be punishments that God will be giving out personally, but rather punishments that natural consequences will be dealing out. Seeing the punishments in this way puts God as our defender and mentor rather than as some kind of a two-faced psycho out there telling us how much he loves us, but at the same time tossing out huge and cumbersome commandments for us to follow and happily tossing the disobedient into huge lakes of fire and brimstone. In my story, both of the fathers cared deeply for their children. But, because one of the sons was literally but unknowingly on his death bed, the urgency of it all demanded that his father resort to drastic measures to save him. What the father did may have looked overly harsh, but compared with an early death, it wasn't. At the very least, what the father did gave his son more time. I don't condone physical abuse of children. It was just for the sake of the allegory. The law of Moses was very definitely unpleasant and I couldn't think of a different way to portray it in the story. I didn't quite get it either. Are Ron and I the grimy kids, or the fathers in this story? And if so, would Ron be the kind-hearted father? I don't recall ever striking my kids like the first father, so I know it doesn't apply to me, however I also wasn't so neglectful as he was to just say a few words and then walk off. My kids cleaned their rooms because it was expected of them, and if they didn't do it, they were punished (groundings, etc). I see God doing the same thing. Yes, occasionally our actions create their own illness/punishment, but on many occasions, God brings his wrath down upon his children. If you don't believe it, just read the scriptures. As it is, the 2nd Coming is described as the Lord coming in red clothing to stomp the grapes of the vineyard with a fury. Yet, there is also a softer side to God, as he patiently works with each of us--as long as we are willing to be worked upon. So, portraying God as either a harsh taskmaster on the one hand or as a milquetoast on the other is to paint God as being two dimensional. He isn't either of these, yet is both of them. And as I raised my children, I used both methods. And as I work with those around me,
Re: [ZION] Vote Now!
On Mar 21, 2004, at 3:44 PM, RB Scott wrote: Gary: Look, I don't think we're ever going to agree. I'm probably as aware as you are as to what God taught and what he didn't. I think are differences are in approach. I'm inclined to teach the gospel, you seem inclined to preach repentance. This is the problem: there is no difference between the gospel and repentance. Consider the following from 3 Nephi 27: 13 Behold I have given unto you my gospel, and this is the gospel which I have given unto you--that I came into the world to do the will of my Father, because my Father sent me. 14 And my Father sent me that I might be lifted up upon the cross; and after that I had been lifted up upon the cross, that I might draw all men unto me, that as I have been lifted up by men even so should men be lifted up by the Father, to stand before me, to be judged of their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil-- 15 And for this cause have I been lifted up; therefore, according to the power of the Father I will draw all men unto me, that they may be judged according to their works. 16 And it shall come to pass, that whoso repenteth and is baptized in my name shall be filled; and if he endureth to the end, behold, him will I hold guiltless before my Father at that day when I shall stand to judge the world. 17 And he that endureth not unto the end, the same is he that is also hewn down and cast into the fire, from whence they can no more return, because of the justice of the Father. 18 And this is the word which he hath given unto the children of men. And for this cause he fulfilleth the words which he hath given, and he lieth not, but fulfilleth all his words. 19 And no unclean thing can enter into his kingdom; therefore nothing entereth into his rest save it be those who have washed their garments in my blood, because of their faith, and the repentance of all their sins, and their faithfulness unto the end. 20 Now this is the commandment: Repent, all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me and be baptized in my name, that ye may be sanctified by the reception of the Holy Ghost, that ye may stand spotless before me at the last day. 21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and ye know the things that ye must do in my church; for the works which ye have seen me do that shall ye also do; for that which ye have seen me do even that shall ye do; 22 Therefore, if ye do these things blessed are ye, for ye shall be lifted up at the last day. I'm inclined to believe that God must be a pretty forgiving God if he's willing to forgive the sins of repentant sinners like you and me. I believe that God wants to include as many people as He possibly can...and that it's my job to do my bit to ensure the roster is as large as possible. You take a different tack. Good luck to you. Our purposes are the same, more or less even if our methods are different. You see, the only way that one can be included in that roster is to repent and become clean through the blood of Christ. Verses 20 and 21 are pretty clear -- the gospel we must preach is the gospel of repentance. If you don't teach repentance, you don't teach the gospel. Too many of us are like Neville Chamberlain. We think that evil can be won by appeasement. The idea is that if we just compromise a bit here and give a little there all will be well. The problem is that compromise and negotiations only work between honorable men. Satan knows that every time we compromise with him we give up our power. God cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance. The current battle is not over civil rights, as some would claim. That's just a smokescreen. The real battle is for the salvation of souls. Sexual sins are real, addictive, and terribly difficult to overcome. People who cannot overcome these sins receive God's righteous judgment. Can we not see the plan of the evil one? More and more of the things that condemn people to eternal damnation are being integrated into society. Abortion, which in but the rarest of cases is nothing more than cold-blooded murder, now enjoys a legally protected place in our society. The problem is that murderers are damned. Adulterers, fornicators, and those who practice other gross sexual sins have a legally protected place in society. The problem is that those who unrepentantly practice sexual sins are damned. Society embraces those things it legally protects. It tells those who live within it that it is OK to do those things. If a society teaches its people to do evil, it encourages them to be damned. God has repeatedly destroyed such societies. WE ARE NOT EXEMPT! There is another aspect of this battle that bears discussion. If the legal records from which temple ordinances are drawn become perverted, we will be unable to use them to perform the saving and exalting ordinances. Many people who have lived worthy lives and died without the
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
That's a cop out. A touchy, feely, liberal cop out. You either need to defend your position, or give ground. The Bible is VERY clear that Christ preached repentance. In Matthew 4:17, it tells us that From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. This is literally the first thing he did after baptism and his 40 day fast. What was the last thing Jesus did? He stood with his disciples and told them: Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have ccommanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. (Matthew 28:19-20). And what did he command them to teach? Repentance. How about in our day? Let's try DC 19 on for size: 13 Wherefore, I command you to repent, and keep the acommandments which you have received by the hand of my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., in my name; 14 And it is by my almighty power that you have received them; 15 Therefore I command you to repentrepent, lest I asmite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your bsufferings be sorehow sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not. 16 For behold, I, God, have asuffered these things for all, that they might not bsuffer if they would crepent; 17 But if they would not repent they must asuffer even as I So, while he will forgive IF we repent, we must suffer even as He did, if we do not. In fact the blessing of forgiveness and mercy is something I truly hope and wish for, but I don't gamble on it. I work for my salvation, repenting as fast and as hard as I can, to ensure I merit that forgiveness. As to those who believe Christ is super-forgiving of sinners, let's see what Nephi says in 2Nephi28: 8 And there shall also be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be bmerry; nevertheless, fear Godhe will justify in committing a little sin; yea, elie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a fpit for thy neighbor; there is gno harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God. 9 Yea, and there shall be many which shall teach after this manner, false and vain and foolish cdoctrines, and shall be puffed up in their hearts, and shall seek deep to hide their counsels from the Lord; and their works shall be in the dark. 10 And the blood of the saints shall cry from the ground against them. 11 Yea, they have all gone out of the away; they have become corrupted. 12 Because of pride, and because of false teachers, and false doctrine, their churches have become corrupted, and their churches are lifted up; because of pride they are puffed up. So, Nephi tells us that some in the last days are going to push the extreme forgiveness idea of Christ. I'm sure you aren't as extreme as some evangelicals who think that a mere belief in Christ merits exaltation. But such are called false teachers with false doctrine. And, in fact, the blood of the saints shall cry against them! Now, I believe God is very forgiving. After all, he offers a kingdom of glory to almost all his children. However, that does not extend to exaltation. DC 76 describes the exalted as the valiant ones, not the wishy-washy. In Revelation, God says he will spew the lukewarm out, so as to give us no misgivings as to what is required for exaltation. Now, just where are these scriptures that you seem to believe in? And no, it isn't a matter of semantics. We agree that Christ is merciful, but modern prophets have also told us that mercy cannot rob justice. Gary Smith Ron Scott wrote: Gary: Look, I don't think we're ever going to agree. I'm probably as aware as you are as to what God taught and what he didn't. I think are differences are in approach. I'm inclined to teach the gospel, you seem inclined to preach repentance. I'm inclined to believe that God must be a pretty forgiving God if he's willing to forgive the sins of repentant sinners like you and me. I believe that God wants to include as many people as He possibly can...and that it's my job to do my bit to ensure the roster is as large as possible. You take a different tack. Good luck to you. Our purposes are the same, more or less even if our methods are different. Ron -Original Message- From: Gerald Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, March 21, 2004 1:42 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [ZION] Vote Now! How about his prophecy that Jerusalem would be destroyed by God for its sins? Since Christ is God, he was doing more than just foreseeing an event - he was being Judge, Jury and Executioner. He will do it again at the Second Coming. We must remember that the Mosaic Law was a lower law -
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
Only he can fully judge us, but the Lord calls upon mankind to judge. Why else have judges in Israel? And we can often tell if a person has repented or not, by whether they have abandoned their sins. Someone living in a gay relationship and pushing for gay rights has not abandoned his sins, therefore, has not fully repented. Gary Smith Ron Scott wrote: Ron Scott: Did I suggest otherwise? I don't think so. I'll suggest that repentance is between the sinner and the Lord. Period. Only the Lord knows true repentance and only the Lord is capable of judging us according to all of our good works and of offering all of us His grace -- after all we can do for ourselves. Did I misunderstand Him? RBS Gerald (Gary) Smith geraldsmith@ juno.com http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
-Original Message- From: Gerald Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 22, 2004 12:04 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! That's a cop out. A touchy, feely, liberal cop out. You either need to defend your position, or give ground. Oh phooey. You're itching for a fight and I'm not going to give you one, no matter what names you call me or how you twist my words. As I noted earlier, I emphasize the teaching instructions from Christ; you emphasize the repentance message. Both lead to the same end. I just happen to think my way is more productive. You're entitled to do as you will. Have a good time. I'd argue that teaching effectively always provokes repentance whereas crying repentance from the rooftops does not always provoke learning and true repentance. By the way, the last thing Christ did on this earth was forgive. Ron Scott The Bible is VERY clear that Christ preached repentance. In Matthew 4:17, it tells us that From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. This is literally the first thing he did after baptism and his 40 day fast. What was the last thing Jesus did? He stood with his disciples and told them: Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have ccommanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. (Matthew 28:19-20). And what did he command them to teach? Repentance. How about in our day? Let's try DC 19 on for size: 13 Wherefore, I command you to repent, and keep the acommandments which you have received by the hand of my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., in my name; 14 And it is by my almighty power that you have received them; 15 Therefore I command you to repentrepent, lest I asmite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your bsufferings be sorehow sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not. 16 For behold, I, God, have asuffered these things for all, that they might not bsuffer if they would crepent; 17 But if they would not repent they must asuffer even as I So, while he will forgive IF we repent, we must suffer even as He did, if we do not. In fact the blessing of forgiveness and mercy is something I truly hope and wish for, but I don't gamble on it. I work for my salvation, repenting as fast and as hard as I can, to ensure I merit that forgiveness. As to those who believe Christ is super-forgiving of sinners, let's see what Nephi says in 2Nephi28: 8 And there shall also be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be bmerry; nevertheless, fear Godhe will justify in committing a little sin; yea, elie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a fpit for thy neighbor; there is gno harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God. 9 Yea, and there shall be many which shall teach after this manner, false and vain and foolish cdoctrines, and shall be puffed up in their hearts, and shall seek deep to hide their counsels from the Lord; and their works shall be in the dark. 10 And the blood of the saints shall cry from the ground against them. 11 Yea, they have all gone out of the away; they have become corrupted. 12 Because of pride, and because of false teachers, and false doctrine, their churches have become corrupted, and their churches are lifted up; because of pride they are puffed up. So, Nephi tells us that some in the last days are going to push the extreme forgiveness idea of Christ. I'm sure you aren't as extreme as some evangelicals who think that a mere belief in Christ merits exaltation. But such are called false teachers with false doctrine. And, in fact, the blood of the saints shall cry against them! Now, I believe God is very forgiving. After all, he offers a kingdom of glory to almost all his children. However, that does not extend to exaltation. DC 76 describes the exalted as the valiant ones, not the wishy-washy. In Revelation, God says he will spew the lukewarm out, so as to give us no misgivings as to what is required for exaltation. Now, just where are these scriptures that you seem to believe in? And no, it isn't a matter of semantics. We agree that Christ is merciful, but modern prophets have also told us that mercy cannot rob justice. Gary Smith Ron Scott wrote: Gary: Look, I don't think we're ever going to agree. I'm probably as aware as you are as to what God taught and what he didn't. I think are differences are in approach. I'm inclined to teach the gospel, you seem inclined to preach repentance. I'm inclined to believe that God must be a pretty forgiving God if he's willing to forgive the sins of repentant sinners like you and me. I believe that God
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
Harold Stuart wrote: [RB Scott] I'm inclined to believe that God must be a pretty forgiving God if he's willing to forgive the sins of repentant sinners like you and me. I believe that God wants to include as many people as He possibly can...and that it's my job to do my bit to ensure the roster is as large as possible. You take a different tack. Good luck to you. Our purposes are the same, more or less even if our methods are different. You see, the only way that one can be included in that roster is to repent and become clean through the blood of Christ. Verses 20 and 21 are pretty clear -- the gospel we must preach is the gospel of repentance. If you don't teach repentance, you don't teach the gospel. Too many of us are like Neville Chamberlain. We think that evil can be won by appeasement. The idea is that if we just compromise a bit here and give a little there all will be well. The problem is that compromise and negotiations only work between honorable men. Satan knows that every time we compromise with him we give up our power. God cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance. The current battle is not over civil rights, as some would claim. That's just a smokescreen. The real battle is for the salvation of souls. Sexual sins are real, addictive, and terribly difficult to overcome. People who cannot overcome these sins receive God's righteous judgment. Can we not see the plan of the evil one? More and more of the things that condemn people to eternal damnation are being integrated into society. Abortion, which in but the rarest of cases is nothing more than cold-blooded murder, now enjoys a legally protected place in our society. The problem is that murderers are damned. Adulterers, fornicators, and those who practice other gross sexual sins have a legally protected place in society. The problem is that those who unrepentantly practice sexual sins are damned. Society embraces those things it legally protects. It tells those who live within it that it is OK to do those things. If a society teaches its people to do evil, it encourages them to be damned. God has repeatedly destroyed such societies. WE ARE NOT EXEMPT! The struggle, as I see it, is on two levels. The first, obviously, is that of good vs. evil in absolute terms. If we have a testimony of the Gospel, and particularly if we've gone through all of its saving ordinances, then we know what's good, what's evil, or at least we have a better idea as between the two. Consequently, we see trends within our society that are disturbing and even alarming, we can speak to those things from that frame of reference. This first struggle is a deeply personal one, in that we work out our own salvation (then concurrently work on our family's) before we work on the salvation of others. The second struggle is that because of apostasy, there are clearly different ideas as to what constitutes salvation, which in turn leads to different ideas as to right and wrong. This struggle is within society itself, and probably has been that way from the beginning. Now what the Lord says to us personally and through the scriptures is clear and unmistakable, but part of that is because of the witness of the Holy Ghost, and part of that is because some of our scriptures are unique to us. Where things become more problematic is within society itself, because 1) apart from the Restored Gospel, there's no witness of the Holy Ghost (only the light of Christ, if at all); 2) there are no common scriptures--no one even agrees on the translation of the Bible that should be used; and therefore, 3) There doesn't seem to be a common consensus as to what ought to be the basic principles this society should operate under. Or the core values, as I told Ron a while ago. And yet one of the basic principles America was founded on involves the freedom of society to worship how and where it may, which by necessity seems to place all religious beliefs, all scriptures, and all concepts of right and wrong on the same playing field... regardless of what sort of a testimony we may have regarding them. Or to be plain about it: How do we allow for people to believe and worship where and how they may without also accepting or tolerating evil...? I actually agree with you as to what you wrote. It's how we apply these things to society as a whole that's part of what I'm wrestling with. All the best, /Sandy/ -- The Rabinowitz Family -- http://www.firstnephi.com Spring Hill, Tennessee // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
-Original Message- From: Sander J. Rabinowitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 22, 2004 2:00 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! SNIP Now what the Lord says to us personally and through the scriptures is clear and unmistakable, but part of that is because of the witness of the Holy Ghost, and part of that is because some of our scriptures are unique to us. Where things become more problematic is within society itself, because 1) apart from the Restored Gospel, there's no witness of the Holy Ghost (only the light of Christ, if at all); 2) there are no common scriptures--no one even agrees on the translation of the Bible that should be used; and therefore, 3) There doesn't seem to be a common consensus as to what ought to be the basic principles this society should operate under. Or the core values, as I told Ron a while ago. And yet one of the basic principles America was founded on involves the freedom of society to worship how and where it may, which by necessity seems to place all religious beliefs, all scriptures, and all concepts of right and wrong on the same playing field... regardless of what sort of a testimony we may have regarding them. Or to be plain about it: How do we allow for people to believe and worship where and how they may without also accepting or tolerating evil...? Well put, Sandy. To me -- others will surely differ -- the divinely-inspired U.S. Constitution is the guide for how we should deal with such matters. In asserting that the Constitution is divinely inspired, God suggests that that equality, rule of law, and freedom to worship and choose right from wrong are paramount. The Constitution does not -- need not -- endorse evil doing per se, but it should continue to give us the right to choose for ourselves and, within reason, make shades of gray assessments as society correctly or incorrectly (ultimately) deems appropriate. If God intended that we should be compelled to behave ourselves, a different cast of characters would have emerged victorious in the pre-existence. I actually agree with you as to what you wrote. It's how we apply these things to society as a whole that's part of what I'm wrestling with. I think God intends us to wrestle a lot. It seems define what this life is all about. RBS // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
At 11:10 AM 3/22/2004, you wrote: Thus sayeth the self-appointed Judge in Israel. By the way, who's pushing for gay rights here? I've seen a few here calling for equal treatment under the law for all, which is something guaranteed by our divinely inspired constitution. RBS Yes, but equality before the law and equal treatment under the law for every liberal scheme coming down the pipe is two different things. -- Steven Montgomery html a href=http://www.stoptheftaa.org/?af=linktous3; img border=0 src=http://www.stoptheftaa.org/_images/linktous/sftaalogosmall.jpg; width=406 height=100/a /html http://www.stoptheftaa.org // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
At 02:24 PM 3/22/2004, you wrote: -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 22, 2004 4:17 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! At 11:10 AM 3/22/2004, you wrote: Thus sayeth the self-appointed Judge in Israel. By the way, who's pushing for gay rights here? I've seen a few here calling for equal treatment under the law for all, which is something guaranteed by our divinely inspired constitution. RBS Yes, but equality before the law and equal treatment under the law for every liberal scheme coming down the pipe is two different things. True enough. I wasn't talking about schemes, however. I wuz talking about people. RBS Ok grin. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] And let us with caution indulge the supposition, that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle--George Washington // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
Grimy Teeth ©2004 by Jonathan Scott Once upon a time there were two boys and they were the best of friends. Unfortunately for both though, they were both about as lazy as they could be. They would wake each morning from under their two piles of never washed blankets to stand in the middles of their never cleaned rooms to look out the grimy panes of their never washed windows to see the clutter that filled their never tended yards. And they were each happy. The disgust of their environment apparently did not disgust them. And each of them lived their lives contentedly amidst the grime, the roaches and the disease. One day, one boy's father saw his son desperately coughing as he lay contentedly upon his gray and sickly bed and the father knew that his son would soon become even more sick and possibly die. He knew that if the boy did not clean his world now that he might not live much longer. And so, out of fear for his son's well being, the father began to yell and scream at him. HOW CAN YOU LIVE LIKE THIS? he yelled. ANIMALS ARE MORE KEMPT! YOU SHAME ME WITH YOUR LAZINESS! he screamed. The father then picked up his hand and struck the boy across his face and the boy fell to the ground in tears. The father then stood over the boy and threatened to strike him again if he did not change his ways. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. spoke the boy in absolute fear through his gray and grimy teeth. CLEAN THIS ROOM AND THIS WORLD NOW OR WHEN I RETURN I SHALL BEAT YOU TO PIECES! yelled and screamed the father. The father then stood and left the room...leaving the boy to sit on the ground sick with fear. And so, the boy stood and began to clean. He was afraid. On that same day, the other's boy's father came to his room to see the filth and grime and disease of his son. He also was amazed at the extent of the grime. But, because the son was yet healthy and not yet in danger, he knew that he could take his time to teach the boy. Son, this is not good. You cannot live this way. If you continue to live like this, you will catch some sort of disease and you might die. Son, I love you. Please stand up and clean. OK father. said the boy through grimy teeth. He then rolled over in his gray and stained bed and went back to sleep. The father was sad, but chose to let the boy choose his own life. He kicked aside the empty cans and cereal boxes and made his way to the door of the bedroom. The next day, the father returned to see the boy still in bed. On the boy's face there was a rash. And when the father entered, the boy seemed to not be able to lay comfortably amidst the garbage. His body seemed to be in pain. Son, the pain that you are feeling and that rash that is on your face both come from the garbage that you live amongst. If you clean, your body will heal. Please clean. I love you. The son, understanding somewhat the message of his father stood from his bed and began to clean. The father smiled and left. The first boy managed to clean his room before his father returned and therefore wasn't beaten to pieces by him. As you can probably guess, that boy never loved his father. He was too afraid of him to love him. And so he lived the rest of his days in fear. He was never very happy. And he was never grateful for the health and long life that his father had given him. The second boy struggled with cleaning his entire days. After years of filth, sickness, and inconvenience though, the boy began to understand and to change. The boy eventually learned to clean of his own free will and loved his father for having cared enough about him to teach him. He had health and a long life and loved his father till the end of his days. -Original Message- From: Gerald Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 22, 2004 12:04 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! That's a cop out. A touchy, feely, liberal cop out. You either need to defend your position, or give ground. Oh phooey. You're itching for a fight and I'm not going to give you one, no matter what names you call me or how you twist my words. As I noted earlier, I emphasize the teaching instructions from Christ; you emphasize the repentance message. Both lead to the same end. I just happen to think my way is more productive. You're entitled to do as you will. Have a good time. I'd argue that teaching effectively always provokes repentance whereas crying repentance from the rooftops does not always provoke learning and true repentance. By the way, the last thing Christ did on this earth was forgive. Ron Scott The Bible is VERY clear that Christ preached repentance. In Matthew 4:17, it tells us that From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. This is literally the first thing he did after baptism and his 40 day fast. What was the last thing Jesus did? He stood with his
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
I'm lousy at parables. Please explain. -Original Message- From: Jonathan Scott [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 22, 2004 6:23 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! Grimy Teeth ©2004 by Jonathan Scott Once upon a time there were two boys and they were the best of friends. Unfortunately for both though, they were both about as lazy as they could be. They would wake each morning from under their two piles of never washed blankets to stand in the middles of their never cleaned rooms to look out the grimy panes of their never washed windows to see the clutter that filled their never tended yards. And they were each happy. The disgust of their environment apparently did not disgust them. And each of them lived their lives contentedly amidst the grime, the roaches and the disease. One day, one boy's father saw his son desperately coughing as he lay contentedly upon his gray and sickly bed and the father knew that his son would soon become even more sick and possibly die. He knew that if the boy did not clean his world now that he might not live much longer. And so, out of fear for his son's well being, the father began to yell and scream at him. HOW CAN YOU LIVE LIKE THIS? he yelled. ANIMALS ARE MORE KEMPT! YOU SHAME ME WITH YOUR LAZINESS! he screamed. The father then picked up his hand and struck the boy across his face and the boy fell to the ground in tears. The father then stood over the boy and threatened to strike him again if he did not change his ways. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. spoke the boy in absolute fear through his gray and grimy teeth. CLEAN THIS ROOM AND THIS WORLD NOW OR WHEN I RETURN I SHALL BEAT YOU TO PIECES! yelled and screamed the father. The father then stood and left the room...leaving the boy to sit on the ground sick with fear. And so, the boy stood and began to clean. He was afraid. On that same day, the other's boy's father came to his room to see the filth and grime and disease of his son. He also was amazed at the extent of the grime. But, because the son was yet healthy and not yet in danger, he knew that he could take his time to teach the boy. Son, this is not good. You cannot live this way. If you continue to live like this, you will catch some sort of disease and you might die. Son, I love you. Please stand up and clean. OK father. said the boy through grimy teeth. He then rolled over in his gray and stained bed and went back to sleep. The father was sad, but chose to let the boy choose his own life. He kicked aside the empty cans and cereal boxes and made his way to the door of the bedroom. The next day, the father returned to see the boy still in bed. On the boy's face there was a rash. And when the father entered, the boy seemed to not be able to lay comfortably amidst the garbage. His body seemed to be in pain. Son, the pain that you are feeling and that rash that is on your face both come from the garbage that you live amongst. If you clean, your body will heal. Please clean. I love you. The son, understanding somewhat the message of his father stood from his bed and began to clean. The father smiled and left. The first boy managed to clean his room before his father returned and therefore wasn't beaten to pieces by him. As you can probably guess, that boy never loved his father. He was too afraid of him to love him. And so he lived the rest of his days in fear. He was never very happy. And he was never grateful for the health and long life that his father had given him. The second boy struggled with cleaning his entire days. After years of filth, sickness, and inconvenience though, the boy began to understand and to change. The boy eventually learned to clean of his own free will and loved his father for having cared enough about him to teach him. He had health and a long life and loved his father till the end of his days. -Original Message- From: Gerald Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 22, 2004 12:04 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! That's a cop out. A touchy, feely, liberal cop out. You either need to defend your position, or give ground. Oh phooey. You're itching for a fight and I'm not going to give you one, no matter what names you call me or how you twist my words. As I noted earlier, I emphasize the teaching instructions from Christ; you emphasize the repentance message. Both lead to the same end. I just happen to think my way is more productive. You're entitled to do as you will. Have a good time. I'd argue that teaching effectively always provokes repentance whereas crying repentance from the rooftops does not always provoke learning and true repentance. By the way, the last thing Christ did on this earth was forgive. Ron Scott The Bible is VERY clear that Christ preached
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
Ron Scott wrote: -- Thus sayeth the self-appointed Judge in Israel. --- Actually, in the church our judges are appointed by inspiration from God. They are not self-appointed nor is their administration a form of political spoils for the party in power. Just in case you did not realize this. Ron: --- By the way, who's pushing for gay rights here? I've seen a few here calling for equal treatment under the law for all, which is something guaranteed by our divinely inspired constitution. --- Our US constitution is designed to promote a common level of morality. It was not intended to protect evil behavior, nor to shelter those who advocate such behavior. As far as it serves those evil purposes today, it has become an instrument as twisted and evil in intent as the wicked minds of those who so pervert the moral basis for our laws. Equal protection is already afforded in our laws, for legitimate and traditional marriage. Nothing in the constitution envisions the degraded definition of marriage that encompasses any particular union of convenience, affection, devotion, or animal attraction. There exists a very pragmatic and functional rationale for promoting traditional marriage in the body of law. Attempting to expand the definition of marriage to include perverted sexual behavior threatens the benefit we incur from that rational basis. And of course, it plainly proposes to lend legitimacy to immorality, which contradicts the very purpose of all laws. No amount of sophistry can cancel the clear message our church leaders have delivered on this matter. They are consistent and unanimous in raising the level of concern regarding the threat to our society. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
Well put, Sandy. To me -- others will surely differ -- the divinely-inspired U.S. Constitution is the guide for how we should deal with such matters. In asserting that the Constitution is divinely inspired, God suggests that that equality, rule of law, and freedom to worship and choose right from wrong are paramount. The Constitution does not -- need not -- endorse evil doing per se, but it should continue to give us the right to choose for ourselves and, within reason, make shades of gray assessments as society correctly or incorrectly (ultimately) deems appropriate. If God intended that we should be compelled to behave ourselves, a different cast of characters would have emerged victorious in the pre-existence. We don't have to make sure the constitution is doing anything. There's no should involved in it whatsoever. That's the beauty of it. It takes care of itself. We can vote however we want to vote. If we want to be a bunch of bigoted fools we can. And the laws we get from our bigotry will hurt us until we get them off of the books. The constitution gives us the mechanism by which we can do whatever we want to do with some order. It insures that the people be the ones to choose...be it for good or evil. The constitution though requires that the people that are doing the voting be mostly righteous...or at least righteous enough. If the people aren't and the laws that get created are too bad, the entire government structure may fall apart. It's kind of what we're seeing now with abortion and gay marriage. I actually agree with you as to what you wrote. It's how we apply these things to society as a whole that's part of what I'm wrestling with. I think God intends us to wrestle a lot. It seems define what this life is all about. RBS 3 Nephi 6:5 5 And now there was nothing in all the land to hinder the people from prospering continually, except they should fall into transgression. 3 Nephi 6:15 - 17 15 Now the cause of this iniquity of the people was this--Satan had great power, unto the stirring up of the people to do all manner of iniquity, and to the puffing them up with pride, tempting them to seek for power, and authority, and riches, and the vain things of the world. 16 And thus Satan did lead away the hearts of the people to do all manner of iniquity; therefore they had enjoyed peace but a few years. 17 And thus, in the commencement of the thirtieth year--the people having been delivered up for the space of a long time to be carried about by the temptations of the devil whithersoever he desired to carry them, and to do whatsoever iniquity he desired they should--and thus in the commencement of this, the thirtieth year, they were in a state of awful wickedness. 18 Now they did not sin ignorantly, for they knew the will of God concerning them, for it had been taught unto them; therefore they did wilfully rebel against God. 3 Nephi 6:30 30 And they did set at defiance the law and the rights of their country; and they did covenant one with another to destroy the governor, and to establish a king over the land, that the land should no more be at liberty but should be subject unto kings. 3 Nephi 7:6 6 And the regulations of the government were destroyed, because of the secret combination of the friends and kindreds of those who murdered the prophets. 3 Nephi 7:8 - 10 8 And thus six years had not passed away since the more part of the people had turned from their righteousness, like the dog to his vomit, or like the sow to her wallowing in the mire. 9 Now this secret combination, which had brought so great iniquity upon the people, did gather themselves together, and did place at their head a man whom they did call Jacob; 10 And they did call him their king; therefore he became a king over this wicked band; and he was one of the chiefest who had given his voice against the prophets who testified of Jesus. That's all it takes guys...36 verses. Peace to war. Prosperity to ruin. 6 years...36 verses. -- Jonathan Scott -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
-Original Message- From: Jim Cobabe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 22, 2004 7:06 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! Ron Scott wrote: -- Thus sayeth the self-appointed Judge in Israel. --- Actually, in the church our judges are appointed by inspiration from God. They are not self-appointed nor is their administration a form of political spoils for the party in power. Just in case you did not realize this. The first reference was to Gary Smith, who is not my bishop, nor is he an appointed judge in Israel. RBS Ron: --- By the way, who's pushing for gay rights here? I've seen a few here calling for equal treatment under the law for all, which is something guaranteed by our divinely inspired constitution. --Jim Cobabe-- Our US constitution is designed to promote a common level of morality. It was not intended to protect evil behavior, nor to shelter those who advocate such behavior. As far as it serves those evil purposes today, it has become an instrument as twisted and evil in intent as the wicked minds of those who so pervert the moral basis for our laws. Equal protection is already afforded in our laws, for legitimate and traditional marriage. Nothing in the constitution envisions the degraded definition of marriage that encompasses any particular union of convenience, affection, devotion, or animal attraction. It seems that some equally thoughtful judges in Massachusetts and elsewhere disagree with you. By proposing the constitutional amendment, the proposers themselves and supporters indicate that they too don't agree with you. There exists a very pragmatic and functional rationale for promoting traditional marriage in the body of law. Attempting to expand the definition of marriage to include perverted sexual behavior threatens the benefit we incur from that rational basis. And of course, it plainly proposes to lend legitimacy to immorality, which contradicts the very purpose of all laws. Immorality is not the issue here. Immorality was endorsed by the legislature of Utah and other state legislatures/courts years ago. The proposed amendment does not do anything to eliminate immorality. No amount of sophistry can cancel the clear message our church leaders have delivered on this matter. They are consistent and unanimous in raising the level of concern regarding the threat to our society. Sophistry? I beg your pardon. Has the Church indicated that people who believe the courts should decide the matter, as mandated by the divinely-inspired constitution, are out of step with the church and its teachings? Please point me to the statement. RBS // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
Ron Scott wrote: I'm lousy at parables. Please explain. Here's my interpretation. I hope that I am not too far off the mark. 1) The filth represents sin, generally, through the individual choices of the children involved. The effects of the filth represents the effects of sin. 2) The children represent ourselves. 3) To be cleansed represents repentance by way of the Gospel. 4) The first father represents an unrighteous plan to bring people to repentance, namely: The use of force, coercion, and fear. 5) The second father represents a righteous plan to bring people to repentance. Applicable scriptures: DC 121:44-46, and Moses 4:1-2. Charity and long-suffering would appear to be key. 6) The second son genuinely repents because he realizes he needs to change, then takes action accordingly. The first son only takes action so as to APPEAR outwardly to repent. Inwardly, that person doesn't yet see the need to change. 7) Thus, the second son is on his way to salvation. The first son's spiritual status remains in question. * * * Still, having laws on the books doesn't mean that we seek to compel people to do right, but rather, there is an overriding interest to regulate certain things to allow society as a whole to operate in a free and righteous manner. If there were no laws, or if laws ratified or encouraged immoral acts, I submit that it becomes significantly more difficult for either father to teach his son about repentance. All the best, /Sandy/ -- The Rabinowitz Family -- http://www.firstnephi.com Spring Hill, Tennessee // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
Sorry had to teach a class. Ron Scott wrote: I'm lousy at parables. Please explain. Here's my interpretation. I hope that I am not too far off the mark. 1) The filth represents sin, generally, through the individual choices of the children involved. The effects of the filth represents the effects of sin. Yup. 2) The children represent ourselves. Yup. 3) To be cleansed represents repentance by way of the Gospel. Yes. 4) The first father represents an unrighteous plan to bring people to repentance, namely: The use of force, coercion, and fear. Almost. I was using him to represent the law of Moses. The people way back then were so close to death each and every day of their lives (lack of civilization...lack of good government) that it was imperative that they obey the gospel...right now. If they had been as lax in obeying the gospel as people are today, civilization itself might never have gotten off the ground. (My opinion.) Perhaps they needed an iron hand. (If you ever get the opportunity, read Little House on the Prairie. Back then, the gospel was vital to your existence...literally.) 5) The second father represents a righteous plan to bring people to repentance. Applicable scriptures: DC 121:44-46, and Moses 4:1-2. Charity and long-suffering would appear to be key. The second father represents the higher law that Christ brought. The civilization was formed. The laws existed and society was to some dependable extent obeying them. 6) The second son genuinely repents because he realizes he needs to change, then takes action accordingly. The first son only takes action so as to APPEAR outwardly to repent. Inwardly, that person doesn't yet see the need to change. Because the second father shows love for his children, the boy is not afraid...and therefore can work on his salvation for no other reason than for his own sake. He was truly working out his own salvation. 7) Thus, the second son is on his way to salvation. The first son's spiritual status remains in question. Right. Who know how the boy will change once the father is gone. * * * Still, having laws on the books doesn't mean that we seek to compel people to do right, but rather, there is an overriding interest to regulate certain things to allow society as a whole to operate in a free and righteous manner. If there were no laws, or if laws ratified or encouraged immoral acts, I submit that it becomes significantly more difficult for either father to teach his son about repentance. All the best, /Sandy/ Still keeping all of that mind. The fathers were never the ones giving out the diseases. Consequence did that. Both fathers cared for the welfare of their children. One just cared for it in a way that was preferable to the other. The fathers used two very different methods to keep their children safe. It's not a perfect analogy. In the first analogy, the father, if he loved the child, would have cleaned the room for him. Sorry, it was the best I could come up with. -- The Rabinowitz Family -- http://www.firstnephi.com Spring Hill, Tennessee -- Jonathan Scott // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
Ron Scott wrote: --- Sophistry? I beg your pardon. Has the Church indicated that people who believe the courts should decide the matter, as mandated by the divinely-inspired constitution, are out of step with the church and its teachings? Please point me to the statement. --- Others with better sense than me have identified the way you like to argue as sophistry -- I did not coin the expression. I can seldom discern from your rhetoric exactly where you stand with regard to anything divinely inspired. Whether you are out of step is up to you, but when you seem to be advocating things that are clearly wrong, I feel prompted to either quit reading your comments, or respond when they seem to need correction. As I have observed in previous threads, you often seem to favor a focus on side issues and exceptions, as if they were the most important things. Perhaps these positions you seem to admire make for fine arguments, but they do not generally seem to represent the policy or position taught by the church. I cannot believe you when ask for statements that are indicative of current church policy. You seem less interested in reading them than in challenging ideas that do not fit your mindset. Nonetheless, for the sake of discussion, I am copying a few interesting and authoritative comments. Perhaps you'd care to substantiate your arguments with supporting material from church leaders and church publications. -- The Church in Hawaiiwith the support of the Roman Catholic Church in the statehas taken legal action to support traditional marriage and prevent state sanctioning of homosexual and lesbian marriages. The Church's action, taken Feb. 23, is a request to the Circuit Court of Hawaii for permission to intervene in opposition to an attempt by three same-gender couples seeking the right to have a legal marriage. A lawsuit, Baehr v. Lewin, was originally thrown out by the trial court. The couples appealed, and the Hawaii Supreme Court ruled that state marriage law discriminates on the basis of sex unless there is a compelling state interest to deny marriage licenses to homosexual and lesbian couples. The Supreme Court sent the case back to the Circuit Court to make that determination. Under Hawaii law, an entity may intervene in a legal action by proving that it has substantial interests in the outcome of the case. The trial is expected to be held in September. The action by the Church supports the state of Hawaii in seeking to preserve its law against homosexual and lesbian marriages. If state law is overturned on this matter, Hawaii would be the first state in the nation in which that happened. Donald L. Hallstrom, regional representative in the Oahu Hawaii North Region, announced the Church's action at a news conference on the day the request was filed with the court. He was joined by the Rev. Marc R. Alexander, diocesan theologian for the Hawaii Catholic Conference; Napua Baker, spokeswoman for the Church in Hawaii; and James M. Sattler, the attorney who is representing the Church in the case. Our purpose and our intention is to be of help and assistance to the attorney general in defending the existing Hawaii law respecting marriage, attorney Sattler said, and our papers are all designed to put forth the facts and the arguments as to why we should be allowed to become parties to the case on the same side as the state and to seek to uphold the existing law. Elder Hallstrom said the news conference was not a forum to attack homosexuals or lesbians. The position of the Church . . . on homosexuality is a matter of record. We are opposed to it on moral grounds. Nevertheless, the Church has not attempted to oppose basic civil rights for homosexuals or any other group. This is not our work nor our focus. He said the Church believes in sexual abstinence before marriage and total fidelity after marriage, and we believe marriage should be between a man and a woman only. Elder Hallstrom said legalizing same-sex marriage goes far beyond basic rights for any individual or group. There are times when certain moral issues become so compelling that churches have a duty to make their feelings known, he added. In rare cases, they may need to pursue their own constitutional rights to resist something they feel poses a serious threat to the moral fabric of society. We have reached such a situation in Hawaii. The Church is resisting this major change in the law, he said, because we feel it represents a threat to families, to our children, and to our way of life in Hawaii. He affirmed that the action was taken in consultation with Church headquarters in Salt Lake City. While this initiative is our own, we assure you that we have the approval and support of the Church . . . in the action we are taking. The Rev. Alexander said the Roman Catholic Church in Hawaii joins the LDS Church in opposing legalization of homosexual marriages. The
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
At 08:58 PM 3/20/2004, you wrote: -Original Message- From: Grampa Bill in Savannah [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2004 8:36 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ZION] Vote Now! RB Scott wrote: Seriously, I don't recall Christ preaching death for any offense...well, murder perhaps (but I don't recall it). Notwithstanding fairly twisted and bizarre interpretations, what Christ taught was forgiveness, not death. Actually he taught both. Unrepentant sinners could still expect the full penalty of the law upon them. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
At 09:00 PM 3/20/2004, you wrote: -Original Message- From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2004 8:22 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! RB Scott wrote: I think you've got it right. The old laws are off the books. If they become laws again, they ought to be enforced. What do I think the penalty ought to be for Sabbath breaking? Dunno. Let me consult with my Jewish and SDA friends. Seriously, I don't recall Christ preaching death for any offense...well, murder perhaps (but I don't recall it). According to official Mormon doctrine, Jesus Christ is the premortal Jehovah. If that is the case, then we know that Jesus Christ preached death for quite a few offenses. --JWR I think too many get fixated and judging others, relishing damning others to hell. What Christ taught was that it is our responsibility to forgive all, to leave judgements to Him. I suspect when that great and dreadful day arrives, more than a few of us will be very, very surpised. RBS So then, let's just open up all the prisons and jails, let everyone go--obviously its not our place to judge rapists, serial killers and the like. Wouldn't that make our society grand? -- Steven Montgomery In democracy there are commonly tumults and disorders Therefore a pure democracy is generally a very bad government. It is often the most tyrannical government on earth.--Noah Webster // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
Re: [ZION] Vote Now!
John W. Redelfs wrote: Hi Gary. My name's Jack, I'm the only son of the listowner. === Grampa Bill comments: Love your style... love your writing... love your dad! Visit us more often. Love Y'all, Grampa Bill in Savannah With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
-Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, March 21, 2004 8:42 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! At 09:00 PM 3/20/2004, you wrote: -Original Message- From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2004 8:22 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! RB Scott wrote: I think you've got it right. The old laws are off the books. If they become laws again, they ought to be enforced. What do I think the penalty ought to be for Sabbath breaking? Dunno. Let me consult with my Jewish and SDA friends. Seriously, I don't recall Christ preaching death for any offense...well, murder perhaps (but I don't recall it). According to official Mormon doctrine, Jesus Christ is the premortal Jehovah. If that is the case, then we know that Jesus Christ preached death for quite a few offenses. --JWR I think too many get fixated and judging others, relishing damning others to hell. What Christ taught was that it is our responsibility to forgive all, to leave judgements to Him. I suspect when that great and dreadful day arrives, more than a few of us will be very, very surpised. RBS So then, let's just open up all the prisons and jails, let everyone go--obviously its not our place to judge rapists, serial killers and the like. Wouldn't that make our society grand? Exactly what I was suggesting. I'd better bite my tonuge. Someone will accuse me of attacking. RBS // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
Gary: Look, I don't think we're ever going to agree. I'm probably as aware as you are as to what God taught and what he didn't. I think are differences are in approach. I'm inclined to teach the gospel, you seem inclined to preach repentance. I'm inclined to believe that God must be a pretty forgiving God if he's willing to forgive the sins of repentant sinners like you and me. I believe that God wants to include as many people as He possibly can...and that it's my job to do my bit to ensure the roster is as large as possible. You take a different tack. Good luck to you. Our purposes are the same, more or less even if our methods are different. Ron -Original Message- From: Gerald Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, March 21, 2004 1:42 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [ZION] Vote Now! How about his prophecy that Jerusalem would be destroyed by God for its sins? Since Christ is God, he was doing more than just foreseeing an event - he was being Judge, Jury and Executioner. He will do it again at the Second Coming. We must remember that the Mosaic Law was a lower law - but still a law of God. Regardless of the punishment, the sin of homosexuality was still a sin that was punishable under the law. In earlier days in the USA, it was also considered a crime punishable under the law. And Just because it is no longer punished, does not make it heinous or sinful. And what Christ taught was not forgiveness, but repentance. Forgiveness is what was given AFTER people repented. Christ did not teach forgiveness to the Pharisees, but called them to repentance. He did not preach forgiveness to the Jews or Samaritans, but repentance. He forgave, because it was within him to forgive those He chose to forgive. Had his mission been nothing but forgiveness, he would forgive all mankind, including Cain. Instead, he came to bring balance between Justice and Mercy, but only on condition of repentance, which is what he preached. I think too many get fixated on what seems to be God's leniency. In reality, the commandments are clear, as are the rewards and punishments. We are not to judge where a person goes to in the next life, but we are to judge right from wrong. The JST of Matthew 7:1 tells us to judge righteous judgment. I don't condemn people to hell, that is God's job. I DO condemn sin, telling the sinner that if change does not occur in his/her life, the person risks hellfire. Calling people to repentance is a good thing to do, because only in repentance can God bring forgiveness. K'aya K'ama, Gerald (Gary) Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html LDS Evidences, Family History, Food Storage, etc. RB Scott wrote: Seriously, I don't recall Christ preaching death for any offense...well, murder perhaps (but I don't recall it). Notwithstanding fairly twisted and bizarre interpretations, what Christ taught was forgiveness, not death. I think too many get fixated and judging others, relishing damning others to hell. What Christ taught was that it is our responsibility to forgive all, to leave judgements to Him. I suspect when that great and dreadful day arrives, more than a few of us will be very, very surpised. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
I have no idea. -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 19, 2004 8:29 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! What laws do you think? At 06:04 PM 3/19/2004, you wrote: What laws? -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 19, 2004 8:15 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ZION] Vote Now! At 02:02 PM 3/19/2004, you wrote: Gays and lesbians should stay in the closet. A. Strongly agree B. Agree C. Undecided D. Disagree E. Strongly Disagree If the laws were strictly enforced, as they were in the days of the people of Nephi, they would have to stay in the closet--to avoid the penalty of the law. -- Steven Montgomery . . . the laws of the land were exceedingly strict--Jarom 1:5 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- /// /// /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// /// // // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
How about the Law of Moses (Jarom 1:5)? Contained within the law of Moses are many commandments, among them this one: (Old Testament | Leviticus 18:22) Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. The penalty, for unrepentant sinners was death: (Old Testament | Leviticus 20:13) If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. -- Steven Montgomery At 03:18 AM 3/20/2004, you wrote: I have no idea. -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 19, 2004 8:29 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! What laws do you think? At 06:04 PM 3/19/2004, you wrote: What laws? -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 19, 2004 8:15 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ZION] Vote Now! At 02:02 PM 3/19/2004, you wrote: Gays and lesbians should stay in the closet. A. Strongly agree B. Agree C. Undecided D. Disagree E. Strongly Disagree If the laws were strictly enforced, as they were in the days of the people of Nephi, they would have to stay in the closet--to avoid the penalty of the law. -- Steven Montgomery . . . the laws of the land were exceedingly strict--Jarom 1:5 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- /// /// /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// /// // // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Steven Montgomery html a href=http://www.stoptheftaa.org/?af=linktous3; img border=0 src=http://www.stoptheftaa.org/_images/linktous/sftaalogosmall.jpg; width=406 height=100/a /html http://www.stoptheftaa.org // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
Ah yes, and stone to death adulterers too. Cast that first stone, Steven. -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2004 9:19 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! How about the Law of Moses (Jarom 1:5)? Contained within the law of Moses are many commandments, among them this one: (Old Testament | Leviticus 18:22) Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. The penalty, for unrepentant sinners was death: (Old Testament | Leviticus 20:13) If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. -- Steven Montgomery At 03:18 AM 3/20/2004, you wrote: I have no idea. -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 19, 2004 8:29 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! What laws do you think? At 06:04 PM 3/19/2004, you wrote: What laws? -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 19, 2004 8:15 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ZION] Vote Now! At 02:02 PM 3/19/2004, you wrote: Gays and lesbians should stay in the closet. A. Strongly agree B. Agree C. Undecided D. Disagree E. Strongly Disagree If the laws were strictly enforced, as they were in the days of the people of Nephi, they would have to stay in the closet--to avoid the penalty of the law. -- Steven Montgomery . . . the laws of the land were exceedingly strict--Jarom 1:5 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- /// /// /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// /// // // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- /// /// /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// /// // -- Steven Montgomery html a href=http://www.stoptheftaa.org/?af=linktous3; img border=0 src=http://www.stoptheftaa.org/_images/linktous/sftaalo gosmall.jpg width=406 height=100/a /html http://www.stoptheftaa.org // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
Hey, all l did was point out the penalty of the law--in the days of Moses and of the people in the Book of Mormon. Since we don't live under a theocratic government, death penalties for sabbath breaking and adultery does seem to be going way too far. Still, in most of the states of the union there used to be laws on the books against both Sabbath breakers and adulterers--perhaps we ought to start enforcing them again. What do you think the penalty ought to be? Or should we just turn a blind eye and let people ruin themselves in their own iniquity? -- Steven Montgomery At 09:04 AM 3/20/2004, you wrote: Ah yes, and stone to death adulterers too. Cast that first stone, Steven. -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2004 9:19 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! How about the Law of Moses (Jarom 1:5)? Contained within the law of Moses are many commandments, among them this one: (Old Testament | Leviticus 18:22) Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. The penalty, for unrepentant sinners was death: (Old Testament | Leviticus 20:13) If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. -- Steven Montgomery At 03:18 AM 3/20/2004, you wrote: I have no idea. -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 19, 2004 8:29 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! What laws do you think? At 06:04 PM 3/19/2004, you wrote: What laws? -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 19, 2004 8:15 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ZION] Vote Now! At 02:02 PM 3/19/2004, you wrote: Gays and lesbians should stay in the closet. A. Strongly agree B. Agree C. Undecided D. Disagree E. Strongly Disagree If the laws were strictly enforced, as they were in the days of the people of Nephi, they would have to stay in the closet--to avoid the penalty of the law. -- Steven Montgomery . . . the laws of the land were exceedingly strict--Jarom 1:5 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- /// /// /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// /// // // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- /// /// /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// /// // -- Steven Montgomery html a href=http://www.stoptheftaa.org/?af=linktous3; img border=0 src=http://www.stoptheftaa.org/_images/linktous/sftaalo gosmall.jpg width=406 height=100/a /html http://www.stoptheftaa.org // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
I think Christ provided the answer, don't you? -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2004 12:48 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! Hey, all l did was point out the penalty of the law--in the days of Moses and of the people in the Book of Mormon. Since we don't live under a theocratic government, death penalties for sabbath breaking and adultery does seem to be going way too far. Still, in most of the states of the union there used to be laws on the books against both Sabbath breakers and adulterers--perhaps we ought to start enforcing them again. What do you think the penalty ought to be? Or should we just turn a blind eye and let people ruin themselves in their own iniquity? -- Steven Montgomery At 09:04 AM 3/20/2004, you wrote: Ah yes, and stone to death adulterers too. Cast that first stone, Steven. -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2004 9:19 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! How about the Law of Moses (Jarom 1:5)? Contained within the law of Moses are many commandments, among them this one: (Old Testament | Leviticus 18:22) Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. The penalty, for unrepentant sinners was death: (Old Testament | Leviticus 20:13) If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. -- Steven Montgomery At 03:18 AM 3/20/2004, you wrote: I have no idea. -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 19, 2004 8:29 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! What laws do you think? At 06:04 PM 3/19/2004, you wrote: What laws? -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 19, 2004 8:15 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ZION] Vote Now! At 02:02 PM 3/19/2004, you wrote: Gays and lesbians should stay in the closet. A. Strongly agree B. Agree C. Undecided D. Disagree E. Strongly Disagree If the laws were strictly enforced, as they were in the days of the people of Nephi, they would have to stay in the closet--to avoid the penalty of the law. -- Steven Montgomery . . . the laws of the land were exceedingly strict--Jarom 1:5 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- /// /// /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// /// // // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- /// /// /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// /// // -- Steven Montgomery html a href=http://www.stoptheftaa.org/?af=linktous3; img border=0 src=http://www.stoptheftaa.org/_images/linktous/sftaalo gosmall.jpg width=406 height=100/a /html http://www.stoptheftaa.org // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- /// /// /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// /// // // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
That's somewhat of a fallacious generalization, John. Yes, it is difficult and it takes time. But you know what, in business management terms, we see change as requiring time. When a business changes its culture, it requires years for the complete change over. Behaviorists will tell you that normally 20-30% will quickly adapt to the change, The middle 30% adapt over several months to a year, with a large number of stragglers that take a long time. Then there are those who never adapt, who end up leaving the company for another with a culture similar to what they used to know. So it is in society. For the Western nations (English speaking primarily), they took centuries to adapt. But Japan and South Korea are awesome democracies (non-English speaking) that have learned the values of freedom over a period of less than 50 years. A long time when one thinks of how impatient Americans are, but rather quick in geological terms. Why did Moses keep Israel in the wilderness for 40 years? It would take that long for those with centuries-long slave mentality to be replaced by a generation of people with a new non-slave culture and mentality. So it is with nations. It might take Iraq 40-50 years to switch over to a strong democracy. So what? It means our grandchildren's children will live in a world with one more free nation that isn't run by radical kooks. Cultures can change. It takes time. But I have a long term view of these things. I'm glad our forefathers also had such a long term vision, otherwise they might have given up at Valley Forge or when the Articles of Confederation failed. Gary Smith John W. Redelfs wrote: Tom Matkin wrote: The USA and her allies will successfully establish democratic rule in Iraq. A. Certainly B. Probably C. Maybe D. Unlikely E. Certainly not E. Certainly not. Democratic rule is a privilege that must be earned. The people of Iraq cannot have it given to them or established for them any more than I can give someone else my own character or discipline. All the USA can do is try to improve the circumstances for the growth of democracy. In most cases those interventions seem to about as successful as premature efforts interventions to help a chick hatch. I strongly agree with you, Tom. Freedom, and the western democratic traditions that establish and maintain freedom are a cultural phenomenon, not something that can be imposed from above. The roots of freedom in the west go back in the English speaking cultures to medieval Britain. That is why we have democracy in the USA, Canada, Australia, and a few other places. That is also why democracy is so tentative on the European continent, and almost nonexistent in non western nations. Democracy is a mind set that is engendered in families that understand and value fundamental, God-given human rights. Those families are almost all English speaking. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === I know of nothing in the history of the Church or in the history of the world to compare with our present circumstances. Nothing happened in Sodom and Gomorrah which exceeds the wickedness and depravity which surrounds us now. --President Boyd K. Packer, February 28, 2004 === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR Gerald (Gary) Smith geraldsmith@ juno.com http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
Ron, why is it that you attack the commandments of God like this? Christ, to this day, condemns sexual impurity, even though he doesn't demand us to stone people to death. Some judgments MUST be made, otherwise you end up with no law, no order, only anarchy. Lehi taught there is right and wrong, up and down, light and darkness; that without the opposites there would be no God. As it is, God has given a law: marriage and sex between man and woman who are legally and lawfully married. Never has God given even a little inference that he would change his mind on either adultery or homosexuality. Christ said what he said because the men involved were evil men. Each was guilty of adultery, probably with the accused woman (why else would they just happen to catch her but no man to take before Jesus?). They were being hypocrites, and he was pointing out their sin to them. Now, he told the woman to go and sin no more. He recognized her sin, and as Savior, gave her one more chance. That was his right as Judge. Since we aren't Christ, the Lawgiver, we must judge as best we can with the guidance God gives us. This means we must have laws on the books that ensure society's safety (no murder, no robbery, no cheating, and others that happen to be in the 10 Commandments - which happen to be more of the Mosaic Law you happened to condemn on homosexuality). Either Christ is for homosexuality, or he is against it. From what I've read in the scriptures (including Paul's words in the New Testament), and writings of modern prophets (note Pres Kimball in Miracle of Forgiveness, or the current missionary requirements of never having had a homosexual event) I'd say you are speaking with a forked tongue in attacking Steven. Either you believe the consistent teachings of the prophets, or you don't. Twisting Christ's words in one event in the scriptures, which He was using to condemn the wicked, only shows your troubling use of the scriptures to fit a different schema than the prophets have proclaimed. Steven mentioned the severity of the penalty for homosexuality to emphasize God's displeasure with it. He didn't say he agreed with the death penalty. As it is, most states have at one time or another had (or have) laws on the books against adultery and homosexuality. Yes, at one time some of these laws even included the death penalty for homosexuality. The reality is, homosexuality, whether in the closet or out in the open is a sin. In either situation, it denigrates and harms society. It will destroy society if it gets hold and full acceptance, just as we learn of Sodom and Gomorrah and others who have lived lives of debauchery. We cannot accept it, even in a tolerant PC way; as that is opening the door for accepting all sin. Gary Smith Ron Scott wrote: Ah yes, and stone to death adulterers too. Cast that first stone, Steven. -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2004 9:19 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! How about the Law of Moses (Jarom 1:5)? Contained within the law of Moses are many commandments, among them this one: (Old Testament | Leviticus 18:22) Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. The penalty, for unrepentant sinners was death: (Old Testament | Leviticus 20:13) If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. -- Steven Montgomery At 03:18 AM 3/20/2004, you wrote: I have no idea. -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 19, 2004 8:29 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! What laws do you think? At 06:04 PM 3/19/2004, you wrote: What laws? -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 19, 2004 8:15 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ZION] Vote Now! At 02:02 PM 3/19/2004, you wrote: Gays and lesbians should stay in the closet. A. Strongly agree B. Agree C. Undecided D. Disagree E. Strongly Disagree If the laws were strictly enforced, as they were in the days of the people of Nephi, they would have to stay in the closet--to avoid the penalty of the law. -- Steven Montgomery . . . the laws of the land were exceedingly strict--Jarom 1:5 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- /// /// /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
Actually, think the three of you -- Gary, Tom and John-- are saying the same thing. And, I agree. I think it's important that we take the long view on Iraq, regard it as a beachhead in the Middle East for giving root to Democracy, however limited/modified it may be at first. RBS -Original Message- From: Gerald Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2004 1:44 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! That's somewhat of a fallacious generalization, John. Yes, it is difficult and it takes time. But you know what, in business management terms, we see change as requiring time. When a business changes its culture, it requires years for the complete change over. Behaviorists will tell you that normally 20-30% will quickly adapt to the change, The middle 30% adapt over several months to a year, with a large number of stragglers that take a long time. Then there are those who never adapt, who end up leaving the company for another with a culture similar to what they used to know. So it is in society. For the Western nations (English speaking primarily), they took centuries to adapt. But Japan and South Korea are awesome democracies (non-English speaking) that have learned the values of freedom over a period of less than 50 years. A long time when one thinks of how impatient Americans are, but rather quick in geological terms. Why did Moses keep Israel in the wilderness for 40 years? It would take that long for those with centuries-long slave mentality to be replaced by a generation of people with a new non-slave culture and mentality. So it is with nations. It might take Iraq 40-50 years to switch over to a strong democracy. So what? It means our grandchildren's children will live in a world with one more free nation that isn't run by radical kooks. Cultures can change. It takes time. But I have a long term view of these things. I'm glad our forefathers also had such a long term vision, otherwise they might have given up at Valley Forge or when the Articles of Confederation failed. Gary Smith John W. Redelfs wrote: Tom Matkin wrote: The USA and her allies will successfully establish democratic rule in Iraq. A. Certainly B. Probably C. Maybe D. Unlikely E. Certainly not E. Certainly not. Democratic rule is a privilege that must be earned. The people of Iraq cannot have it given to them or established for them any more than I can give someone else my own character or discipline. All the USA can do is try to improve the circumstances for the growth of democracy. In most cases those interventions seem to about as successful as premature efforts interventions to help a chick hatch. I strongly agree with you, Tom. Freedom, and the western democratic traditions that establish and maintain freedom are a cultural phenomenon, not something that can be imposed from above. The roots of freedom in the west go back in the English speaking cultures to medieval Britain. That is why we have democracy in the USA, Canada, Australia, and a few other places. That is also why democracy is so tentative on the European continent, and almost nonexistent in non western nations. Democracy is a mind set that is engendered in families that understand and value fundamental, God-given human rights. Those families are almost all English speaking. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === I know of nothing in the history of the Church or in the history of the world to compare with our present circumstances. Nothing happened in Sodom and Gomorrah which exceeds the wickedness and depravity which surrounds us now. --President Boyd K. Packer, February 28, 2004 === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR Gerald (Gary) Smith geraldsmith@ juno.com http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
How did I attack the commandments of God? I merely commented on Steven's rather harsh and outdated penalties. He didn't ask whether to comment on what was forbidden by the Lord did he? I did not *attack* Steven and I certainly did not attack Christ's teachings. At the moment, the USA is not a theocracy. All of us have pledged before God to sustain, honor and obey the law of the land and to be subjects to kings, magistrates, rulers etc. I am so bound, so are you. Neverthless, I know what God teaches and what he doesn't. I do not need the government to teach me what's right in the eyes of God and what is not. It's better if the laws correspond. But if the don't, it's not likely twist my trousers into a knot You are absolutely correct: Christ is our judge. You are not mine nor am I yours. I do not not know your mind nor your particular circumstances and history. Neither do you know mine. Ron -Original Message- From: Gerald Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2004 2:18 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! Ron, why is it that you attack the commandments of God like this? Christ, to this day, condemns sexual impurity, even though he doesn't demand us to stone people to death. Some judgments MUST be made, otherwise you end up with no law, no order, only anarchy. Lehi taught there is right and wrong, up and down, light and darkness; that without the opposites there would be no God. As it is, God has given a law: marriage and sex between man and woman who are legally and lawfully married. Never has God given even a little inference that he would change his mind on either adultery or homosexuality. Christ said what he said because the men involved were evil men. Each was guilty of adultery, probably with the accused woman (why else would they just happen to catch her but no man to take before Jesus?). They were being hypocrites, and he was pointing out their sin to them. Now, he told the woman to go and sin no more. He recognized her sin, and as Savior, gave her one more chance. That was his right as Judge. Since we aren't Christ, the Lawgiver, we must judge as best we can with the guidance God gives us. This means we must have laws on the books that ensure society's safety (no murder, no robbery, no cheating, and others that happen to be in the 10 Commandments - which happen to be more of the Mosaic Law you happened to condemn on homosexuality). Either Christ is for homosexuality, or he is against it. From what I've read in the scriptures (including Paul's words in the New Testament), and writings of modern prophets (note Pres Kimball in Miracle of Forgiveness, or the current missionary requirements of never having had a homosexual event) I'd say you are speaking with a forked tongue in attacking Steven. Either you believe the consistent teachings of the prophets, or you don't. Twisting Christ's words in one event in the scriptures, which He was using to condemn the wicked, only shows your troubling use of the scriptures to fit a different schema than the prophets have proclaimed. Steven mentioned the severity of the penalty for homosexuality to emphasize God's displeasure with it. He didn't say he agreed with the death penalty. As it is, most states have at one time or another had (or have) laws on the books against adultery and homosexuality. Yes, at one time some of these laws even included the death penalty for homosexuality. The reality is, homosexuality, whether in the closet or out in the open is a sin. In either situation, it denigrates and harms society. It will destroy society if it gets hold and full acceptance, just as we learn of Sodom and Gomorrah and others who have lived lives of debauchery. We cannot accept it, even in a tolerant PC way; as that is opening the door for accepting all sin. Gary Smith Ron Scott wrote: Ah yes, and stone to death adulterers too. Cast that first stone, Steven. -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2004 9:19 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! How about the Law of Moses (Jarom 1:5)? Contained within the law of Moses are many commandments, among them this one: (Old Testament | Leviticus 18:22) Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. The penalty, for unrepentant sinners was death: (Old Testament | Leviticus 20:13) If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. -- Steven Montgomery At 03:18 AM 3/20/2004, you wrote: I have no idea. -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 19, 2004 8:29 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! What laws do you think? At 06:04 PM 3/19/2004, you wrote: What laws? -Original Message
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
If he did then perhaps I'm just too blind to see. Perhaps you can enlighten me. -- Steven Montgomery At 11:10 AM 3/20/2004, you wrote: I think Christ provided the answer, don't you? -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2004 12:48 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! Hey, all l did was point out the penalty of the law--in the days of Moses and of the people in the Book of Mormon. Since we don't live under a theocratic government, death penalties for sabbath breaking and adultery does seem to be going way too far. Still, in most of the states of the union there used to be laws on the books against both Sabbath breakers and adulterers--perhaps we ought to start enforcing them again. What do you think the penalty ought to be? Or should we just turn a blind eye and let people ruin themselves in their own iniquity? -- Steven Montgomery At 09:04 AM 3/20/2004, you wrote: Ah yes, and stone to death adulterers too. Cast that first stone, Steven. -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2004 9:19 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! How about the Law of Moses (Jarom 1:5)? Contained within the law of Moses are many commandments, among them this one: (Old Testament | Leviticus 18:22) Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. The penalty, for unrepentant sinners was death: (Old Testament | Leviticus 20:13) If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. -- Steven Montgomery At 03:18 AM 3/20/2004, you wrote: I have no idea. -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 19, 2004 8:29 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! What laws do you think? At 06:04 PM 3/19/2004, you wrote: What laws? -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 19, 2004 8:15 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ZION] Vote Now! At 02:02 PM 3/19/2004, you wrote: Gays and lesbians should stay in the closet. A. Strongly agree B. Agree C. Undecided D. Disagree E. Strongly Disagree If the laws were strictly enforced, as they were in the days of the people of Nephi, they would have to stay in the closet--to avoid the penalty of the law. -- Steven Montgomery . . . the laws of the land were exceedingly strict--Jarom 1:5 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- /// /// /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// /// // // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- /// /// /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// /// // -- Steven Montgomery html a href=http://www.stoptheftaa.org/?af=linktous3; img border=0 src=http://www.stoptheftaa.org/_images/linktous/sftaalo gosmall.jpg width=406 height=100/a /html http://www.stoptheftaa.org // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- /// /// /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// /// // // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
I think you've got it right. The old laws are off the books. If they become laws again, they ought to be enforced. What do I think the penalty ought to be for Sabbath breaking? Dunno. Let me consult with my Jewish and SDA friends. Seriously, I don't recall Christ preaching death for any offense...well, murder perhaps (but I don't recall it). RBS -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2004 6:42 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! If he did then perhaps I'm just too blind to see. Perhaps you can enlighten me. -- Steven Montgomery At 11:10 AM 3/20/2004, you wrote: I think Christ provided the answer, don't you? -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2004 12:48 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! Hey, all l did was point out the penalty of the law--in the days of Moses and of the people in the Book of Mormon. Since we don't live under a theocratic government, death penalties for sabbath breaking and adultery does seem to be going way too far. Still, in most of the states of the union there used to be laws on the books against both Sabbath breakers and adulterers--perhaps we ought to start enforcing them again. What do you think the penalty ought to be? Or should we just turn a blind eye and let people ruin themselves in their own iniquity? -- Steven Montgomery At 09:04 AM 3/20/2004, you wrote: Ah yes, and stone to death adulterers too. Cast that first stone, Steven. -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2004 9:19 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! How about the Law of Moses (Jarom 1:5)? Contained within the law of Moses are many commandments, among them this one: (Old Testament | Leviticus 18:22) Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. The penalty, for unrepentant sinners was death: (Old Testament | Leviticus 20:13) If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. -- Steven Montgomery At 03:18 AM 3/20/2004, you wrote: I have no idea. -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 19, 2004 8:29 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! What laws do you think? At 06:04 PM 3/19/2004, you wrote: What laws? -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 19, 2004 8:15 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ZION] Vote Now! At 02:02 PM 3/19/2004, you wrote: Gays and lesbians should stay in the closet. A. Strongly agree B. Agree C. Undecided D. Disagree E. Strongly Disagree If the laws were strictly enforced, as they were in the days of the people of Nephi, they would have to stay in the closet--to avoid the penalty of the law. -- Steven Montgomery . . . the laws of the land were exceedingly strict--Jarom 1:5 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- /// /// /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// /// // // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- /// /// /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// /// // -- Steven Montgomery html a href=http://www.stoptheftaa.org/?af=linktous3; img border=0 src=http://www.stoptheftaa.org/_images/linktous/sftaalo gosmall.jpg width=406 height=100/a /html http://www.stoptheftaa.org // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
RB Scott wrote: I think you've got it right. The old laws are off the books. If they become laws again, they ought to be enforced. What do I think the penalty ought to be for Sabbath breaking? Dunno. Let me consult with my Jewish and SDA friends. Seriously, I don't recall Christ preaching death for any offense...well, murder perhaps (but I don't recall it). According to official Mormon doctrine, Jesus Christ is the premortal Jehovah. If that is the case, then we know that Jesus Christ preached death for quite a few offenses. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
Hi Gary. My name's Jack, I'm the only son of the listowner. Since I advised him in writing the post you are responding to (I'm his history advisor), I was interested in your reply and decided to respond. Gerald Smith wrote: That's somewhat of a fallacious generalization, John. Yes, it is difficult and it takes time. But you know what, in business management terms, we see change as requiring time. snip business analogy This is interesting info, Gary, but I doubt that it applies to this discussion. Although business traditions are mercurial, cultural traditions tend to strengthen exponentially from generation to generation. The hand that rocks the cradle, etc. I find it highly doubtful that these traditions can be changed in a few years. Why didn't the Iraqis rise and destroy Saddam of their own accord? Because as a people, they were willing to resign themselves to his rule. They have been resigning themselves to autocrats for a long, long time. snip... Japan and South Korea are awesome democracies (non-English speaking) that have learned the values of freedom over a period of less than 50 years. We forced a democratic constitution upon Japan, literally at gunpoint, which they are already contemplating abandoning. Even now, the Japanese are happy to live with a degree of regimentation and control far beyond what we would find acceptable. Politics in Japan are not a populist exercise. Although they do vote, the Japanese people allow most of their politics to be decided behind closed doors. And I should add I'm basing this from mainstream sources, like Newsweek and U.S News World Report - not fringe publications like the New American. It might take Iraq 40-50 years to switch over to a strong democracy. So what? It means our grandchildren's children will live in a world with one more free nation that isn't run by radical kooks. Are you willing to occupy Iraq for 40-50 years, no matter the cost in lives and dollars? Because that's the only way I can see of achieving our goals. Even then, it would be impossible unless the Iraqis chose to change. Besides, are there _any_ Islamic nations that are not run by radical kooks? Was Saddam alone in persecuting the Kurds? Didn't the president of Maylasia recently release a diatribe against the vast Jewish conspiracy controlling the west? Did not Syria, Jordan and Egypt attempt to exterminate Israel only 31 years ago (supported by Saudi Arabia, I might add)? How does Saudi Arabia stand on human rights? How wide is suffrage in the Islamic world? Although it is true that Iraq may eventually switch over to a strong democracy, this will only result after a genuine, grassroots cultural shift. Such a shift has to come from within; our meddling can only hurt, not help such a process. A brief invasion will solve nothing. Cultures can change. It takes time. But I have a long term view of these things. I'm glad our forefathers also had such a long term vision, otherwise they might have given up at Valley Forge or when the Articles of Confederation failed. The heroes of the American Revolution were scions of a rich democratic tradition. The people of Iraq are inheritors of a factional, authoritarian tradition that we cannot hope to change by force. === It's not easy to juggle a pregnant wife and a troubled child, but somehow I managed to fit in eight hours of TV a day. - Homer Simpson // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
Gerald Smith wrote: It might take Iraq 40-50 years to switch over to a strong democracy. So what? It means our grandchildren's children will live in a world with one more free nation that isn't run by radical kooks. Hope springs eternal in the human breast, Man never is but always to be blest. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
Re: [ZION] Vote Now!
RB Scott wrote: Seriously, I don't recall Christ preaching death for any offense...well, murder perhaps (but I don't recall it). = Grampa Bill comments: But the Christ of the New Testament IS the Jehovah of the Old Testament and in those days with those people He most certainly enumerated a number of offenses for which the sentence was death. Love Y'all, Grampa Bill in Savannah With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
-Original Message- From: Grampa Bill in Savannah [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2004 8:36 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ZION] Vote Now! RB Scott wrote: Seriously, I don't recall Christ preaching death for any offense...well, murder perhaps (but I don't recall it). Notwithstanding fairly twisted and bizarre interpretations, what Christ taught was forgiveness, not death. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
Re: [ZION] Vote Now!
Gays and lesbians should stay in the closet. Their choice. They should NOT be afraid to come out of the closet, nor should they expect to be accepted. In my own personal experience, those of my friends who came out of the closet remained my friends, and were counseled by me in love to change any dangerous personal behaviors they were engaging in. The one who took my advice, took it too late, and died of AIDS. Jon // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
-Original Message- From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, March 21, 2004 12:11 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! RB Scott wrote: Seriously, I don't recall Christ preaching death for any offense...well, murder perhaps (but I don't recall it). Notwithstanding fairly twisted and bizarre interpretations, what Christ taught was forgiveness, not death. Forgiveness for the repentant only. That is what he taught then, and that is what he teaches now. We have to forgive all men, but he only forgives the repentant. --JWR Yep. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
-Original Message- From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: March 19, 2004 1:52 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [ZION] Vote Now! The USA and her allies will successfully establish democratic rule in Iraq. A. Certainly B. Probably C. Maybe D. Unlikely E. Certainly not E. Certainly not. Democratic rule is a privilege that must be earned. The people of Iraq cannot have it given to them or established for them any more than I can give someone else my own character or discipline. All the USA can do is try to improve the circumstances for the growth of democracy. In most cases those interventions seem to about as successful as premature efforts interventions to help a chick hatch. Tom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
A. Certainly. However, the question will be how long it lasts. Once we start concentrating on other areas, will the Iraqis keep it? I mean, look at what the French and Germans have done with their freedom since we ended the Cold War and didn't concentrate on them as much. Gary Smith John W. Redelfs wrote: The USA and her allies will successfully establish democratic rule in Iraq. A. Certainly B. Probably C. Maybe D. Unlikely E. Certainly not Gerald (Gary) Smith geraldsmith@ juno.com http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
E. Strongly Disagree. How else are we going to know which ones are the tares, if they hide amongst the wheat??? There's gonna be a big bonfire, and I'm hoping to watch it, not get burned mistakenly because we can't tell the firewood from the cabinetry in the house of God. Gary Smith John W. Redelfs wrote: Gays and lesbians should stay in the closet. A. Strongly agree B. Agree C. Undecided D. Disagree E. Strongly Disagree Gerald (Gary) Smith geraldsmith@ juno.com http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
Presidente Tomas, So, are you saying that instead of trying to help them democratize, we should have just turned Afghanistan and Iraq into seas of glass, to get the radical terrorists out of our hair? Gary Smith Tom Matkin wrote: -Original Message- From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: March 19, 2004 1:52 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [ZION] Vote Now! The USA and her allies will successfully establish democratic rule in Iraq. A. Certainly B. Probably C. Maybe D. Unlikely E. Certainly not E. Certainly not. Democratic rule is a privilege that must be earned. The people of Iraq cannot have it given to them or established for them any more than I can give someone else my own character or discipline. All the USA can do is try to improve the circumstances for the growth of democracy. In most cases those interventions seem to about as successful as premature efforts interventions to help a chick hatch. Tom Gerald (Gary) Smith geraldsmith@ juno.com http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
Tom Matkin wrote: The USA and her allies will successfully establish democratic rule in Iraq. A. Certainly B. Probably C. Maybe D. Unlikely E. Certainly not E. Certainly not. Democratic rule is a privilege that must be earned. The people of Iraq cannot have it given to them or established for them any more than I can give someone else my own character or discipline. All the USA can do is try to improve the circumstances for the growth of democracy. In most cases those interventions seem to about as successful as premature efforts interventions to help a chick hatch. I strongly agree with you, Tom. Freedom, and the western democratic traditions that establish and maintain freedom are a cultural phenomenon, not something that can be imposed from above. The roots of freedom in the west go back in the English speaking cultures to medieval Britain. That is why we have democracy in the USA, Canada, Australia, and a few other places. That is also why democracy is so tentative on the European continent, and almost nonexistent in non western nations. Democracy is a mind set that is engendered in families that understand and value fundamental, God-given human rights. Those families are almost all English speaking. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === I know of nothing in the history of the Church or in the history of the world to compare with our present circumstances. Nothing happened in Sodom and Gomorrah which exceeds the wickedness and depravity which surrounds us now. --President Boyd K. Packer, February 28, 2004 === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
-Original Message- From: Gerald Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: March 19, 2004 2:25 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! Presidente Tomas, So, are you saying that instead of trying to help them democratize, we should have just turned Afghanistan and Iraq into seas of glass, to get the radical terrorists out of our hair? Gary Smith Good heavens, what are you talking about? Tom Tom Matkin wrote: -Original Message- From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: March 19, 2004 1:52 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [ZION] Vote Now! The USA and her allies will successfully establish democratic rule in Iraq. A. Certainly B. Probably C. Maybe D. Unlikely E. Certainly not E. Certainly not. Democratic rule is a privilege that must be earned. The people of Iraq cannot have it given to them or established for them any more than I can give someone else my own character or discipline. All the USA can do is try to improve the circumstances for the growth of democracy. In most cases those interventions seem to about as successful as premature efforts interventions to help a chick hatch. Tom Gerald (Gary) Smith geraldsmith@ juno.com http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // /// // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
Re: [ZION] Vote Now!
Same-sex marriage will become legal in all or most of the United States over the next five years. A. Certainly B. Likely C. Maybe D. Unlikely E. Certainly not B. Likely -- Jonathan Scott // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
Re: [ZION] Vote Now!
The USA and her allies will successfully establish democratic rule in Iraq. A. Certainly B. Probably C. Maybe D. Unlikely E. Certainly not If Bush gets a second term...then, B. Probably. If Bush doesn't, then, D. Unlikely, and all the while the dems will blame Bush for it. -- Jonathan Scott // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
Re: [ZION] Vote Now!
Mankind will establish permanent space colonies by the end of the century. A. Certainly B. Likely C. Maybe D. Unlikely E. Certainly not D. Unlikely -- Jonathan Scott // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
Re: [ZION] Vote Now!
Gays and lesbians should stay in the closet. A. Strongly agree B. Agree C. Undecided D. Disagree E. Strongly Disagree You need one more option. F. I don't care. The closest to it is C. Undecided I guess. -- Jonathan Scott // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
Re: [ZION] Vote Now!
John W. Redelfs wrote: Same-sex marriage will become legal in all or most of the United States over the next five years. A. Certainly B. Likely C. Maybe D. Unlikely E. Certainly not Grampa Sez: C. Maybe Love Y'all, Grampa Bill in Savannah With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
Re: [ZION] Vote Now!
John W. Redelfs wrote: Mankind will establish permanent space colonies by the end of the century. A. Certainly B. Likely C. Maybe D. Unlikely E. Certainly not Grampa opines: B. Likely We've got 96 years on this. Look where we were 96 years ago. Now, if the second coming occurs in the interim, all bets are off. I'm not even sure we have an inkling on the makeup of deep space given the scriptural references to rolling up the heavens like a scroll. -- Love Y'all, Grampa Bill in Savannah With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
Re: [ZION] Vote Now!
So many posts with the same title confused either my isp or the giant gerbil who sorts through e-mail before it's sent to its proper destination. Either way, I didn't receive the original post referenced below, so I'll answer it in a third-party fashion by answering Jonathan's answer, sort of. E. Certainly not. There is/are no longer a/any United States. Disunity is the order of the day. *jeep! ---Chet If ya thinks ya is right, ya deserfs credit - even if ya is wrong. --Gus Segar via Popeye - Original Message - From: Jonathan Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 19, 2004 5:44 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Vote Now! Same-sex marriage will become legal in all or most of the United States over the next five years. A. Certainly B. Likely C. Maybe D. Unlikely E. Certainly not B. Likely -- Jonathan Scott // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
Re: [ZION] Vote Now!
At 01:54 PM 3/19/2004, you wrote: Same-sex marriage will become legal in all or most of the United States over the next five years. A. Certainly B. Likely C. Maybe D. Unlikely E. Certainly not If the United States doesn't withdraw from the United Nations we will. If not in five years then perhaps ten or fifteen. http://www.ldsmag.com/familywatch/040319newsletter.html I disagree with Sharon Slater, the author of the above article and President of United Families International, that pro-family activism within the UN will work. A better choice, in my opinion, is to totally withdraw from the UN. -- Steven Montgomery html a href=http://www.stoptheftaa.org/?af=linktous3; img border=0 src=http://www.stoptheftaa.org/_images/linktous/sftaalogosmall.jpg; width=406 height=100/a /html http://www.stoptheftaa.org // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
Re: [ZION] Vote Now!
At 01:57 PM 3/19/2004, you wrote: Mankind will establish permanent space colonies by the end of the century. A. Certainly B. Likely C. Maybe D. Unlikely E. Certainly not We pretty much have a semi-permanent presence in space now--with the ISS. An actual colony, on the other hand, is far more difficult. I doubt it. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] Moral Anarchy is the seedbed of Tyranny--R. W. (Bob) Lee // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
Re: [ZION] Vote Now!
At 02:02 PM 3/19/2004, you wrote: Gays and lesbians should stay in the closet. A. Strongly agree B. Agree C. Undecided D. Disagree E. Strongly Disagree If the laws were strictly enforced, as they were in the days of the people of Nephi, they would have to stay in the closet--to avoid the penalty of the law. -- Steven Montgomery . . . the laws of the land were exceedingly strict--Jarom 1:5 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
Why does our membership in the UN have anything to do with it? -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 19, 2004 8:08 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ZION] Vote Now! At 01:54 PM 3/19/2004, you wrote: Same-sex marriage will become legal in all or most of the United States over the next five years. A. Certainly B. Likely C. Maybe D. Unlikely E. Certainly not If the United States doesn't withdraw from the United Nations we will. If not in five years then perhaps ten or fifteen. http://www.ldsmag.com/familywatch/040319newsletter.html I disagree with Sharon Slater, the author of the above article and President of United Families International, that pro-family activism within the UN will work. A better choice, in my opinion, is to totally withdraw from the UN. -- Steven Montgomery html a href=http://www.stoptheftaa.org/?af=linktous3; img border=0 src=http://www.stoptheftaa.org/_images/linktous/sftaalo gosmall.jpg width=406 height=100/a /html http://www.stoptheftaa.org // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
What laws? -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 19, 2004 8:15 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ZION] Vote Now! At 02:02 PM 3/19/2004, you wrote: Gays and lesbians should stay in the closet. A. Strongly agree B. Agree C. Undecided D. Disagree E. Strongly Disagree If the laws were strictly enforced, as they were in the days of the people of Nephi, they would have to stay in the closet--to avoid the penalty of the law. -- Steven Montgomery . . . the laws of the land were exceedingly strict--Jarom 1:5 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
At 06:04 PM 3/19/2004, you wrote: Why does our membership in the UN have anything to do with it? Sharon Slater answers it this way: Quote Attempts to legalize same sex marriage around the world would be substantially strengthened if homosexual behavior becomes an internationally recognized human right. The resolution, if passed, undoubtedly would be cited by the U.S. Supreme Court and state appellate courts to (1) overturn Defense of Marriage laws at the state and federal level and (2) challenge state constitutional provisions defining marriage as a union between a man and a woman. They did it on the Texas anti-sodomy law and they would surely do it again. /Quote -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] HTML BODY a href=http://www.getusout.org;img border=0 src=http://www.getusout.org/images/guolink.gif;/a PPBR /BODY /HTML http://www.getusout.org // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
What laws do you think? At 06:04 PM 3/19/2004, you wrote: What laws? -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 19, 2004 8:15 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ZION] Vote Now! At 02:02 PM 3/19/2004, you wrote: Gays and lesbians should stay in the closet. A. Strongly agree B. Agree C. Undecided D. Disagree E. Strongly Disagree If the laws were strictly enforced, as they were in the days of the people of Nephi, they would have to stay in the closet--to avoid the penalty of the law. -- Steven Montgomery . . . the laws of the land were exceedingly strict--Jarom 1:5 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
