[Zope3-dev] Re: [Zope-dev] Pluggins vs Application Definition

2006-02-15 Thread Chris Withers
[aside... hmmm, crossposting, maybe time to merge zope-dev and zope3-dev? most stuff seems to be relevent to both nowadays] Jim Fulton wrote: In Zope 3, we went with a more explicit installation mechanism, in which people had to explicitly cause a package's ZCML files to be loaded for it to

Re: [Zope3-dev] Pluggins vs Application Definition

2006-02-15 Thread Chris Withers
Stephan Richter wrote: This is interesting. I agree with Philipp though that a simple install tool would be better than one magic location. Indeed, but don't eggs already provide tools for this? I think the ZCML slugs are very cool I think they suck, sorry... it's one of the first things

[Zope3-dev] My proposals on simplifying ZCML

2006-02-15 Thread Philipp von Weitershausen
Dear all, thanks to everyone who commented my two proposals on simplifying ZCML. Here are some updates: Reducing the amount of ZCML directives -- I've updated this proposal slightly. It now mentions the important characteristics of ZCML directives and lists

[Zope3-dev] Last chance to comment on Simplify skinning

2006-02-15 Thread Philipp von Weitershausen
Hi there, a while back I wrote a proposal on simplifying the skinning system (http://dev.zope.org/Zope3/SimplifySkinning). I got a lot of useful feedback which in turn made me update the proposal. Since then I haven't heard much comments. I would like to start implementing it soon, especially

[Zope3-dev] Re: [Zope-dev] Pluggins vs Application Definition

2006-02-15 Thread Philipp von Weitershausen
Chris Withers wrote: [aside... hmmm, crossposting, maybe time to merge zope-dev and zope3-dev? most stuff seems to be relevent to both nowadays] +10 You know, I once had a proposal. Uh, never mind :) In Zope 3, we went with a more explicit installation mechanism, in which people had to

[Zope3-dev] Re: [Zope-dev] Pluggins vs Application Definition

2006-02-15 Thread Stephan Richter
On Wednesday 15 February 2006 07:20, Philipp von Weitershausen wrote: Chris Withers wrote: [aside... hmmm, crossposting, maybe time to merge zope-dev and zope3-dev? most stuff seems to be relevent to both nowadays] +10 Okay, I hope this would be ignored, but -1. I can still ignore many

[Zope3-dev] Re: Last chance to comment on Simplify skinning

2006-02-15 Thread Tonico Strasser
Philipp von Weitershausen wrote: Hi there, a while back I wrote a proposal on simplifying the skinning system (http://dev.zope.org/Zope3/SimplifySkinning). I got a lot of useful feedback which in turn made me update the proposal. Since then I haven't heard much comments. I would like to start

Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: One namespace for ZCML

2006-02-15 Thread Philipp von Weitershausen
Roger Ineichen wrote: I'm interessted in a menu / menu item refactoring. This means, we could get rid of the implicit magicly registred menus in other directives which ends in unaccessible menu items and will offer a better accessible API. I will write a proposal later, but perhaps I

[Zope3-dev] Re: Last chance to comment on Simplify skinning

2006-02-15 Thread Philipp von Weitershausen
Dear Tonico, thanks for your input. In CMF things are very easy to understand, because a layer is simply a folder. I can explain that in five minutes to a template programmer. Why does the template programmer need to know about layers? Maybe this sounds a bit NAIVE, but would it be possible

Re: [Zope3-dev] One namespace for ZCML

2006-02-15 Thread Philipp von Weitershausen
Jeff Shell wrote: I still HATE magical ZCML. But I still think ZCML is a good thing and should be modularized. Simplified - yes. Modular (namespaces) - yes. That seems to be the core message of most of the feedback I got. I'll be happy to hear more detailed suggestions on what should be

Re: [Zope3-dev] RFC: Reducing the amount of ZCML directives

2006-02-15 Thread Philipp von Weitershausen
Lennart Regebro wrote: I think I agree. This to me makes sense. If it were nameless (are there nameless utilities) you could then get off with just utility component=.alias.sydneyFactory / which is then the on/off switch we mentioned earlier. And an adapter should be registered the same way

[Zope3-dev] Re: One namespace for ZCML

2006-02-15 Thread Stephan Richter
On Wednesday 15 February 2006 07:59, Philipp von Weitershausen wrote: I realize that and I think at least the concern was valid. As for the solution, I rather prefer the convenience (which reads for me as automation when it get rids of dead chicken direcives) to be in Python. But I think this

Re: [Zope3-dev] RFC: Reducing the amount of ZCML directives

2006-02-15 Thread Lennart Regebro
On 2/15/06, Philipp von Weitershausen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Among other things, yes. The idea isn't mine though, it was Jim's and is already in-place as of Zope 3.2/2.9. Oh, I missed that, I thought it was planned for 3.3. :-) -- Lennart Regebro, Nuxeo http://www.nuxeo.com/ CPS Content

Re: [Zope3-dev] One namespace for ZCML

2006-02-15 Thread Martijn Faassen
Philipp von Weitershausen wrote: Martijn Faassen wrote: [snip] Moreover, sometimes a package introduces new ways to configure components. Five does so, for instance, and Silva will too eventually. I would really like to hear what kind of directives you imagine for Silva here (and what you

[Zope3-dev] Re: Last chance to comment on Simplify skinning

2006-02-15 Thread Tonico Strasser
Philipp von Weitershausen wrote: In CMF things are very easy to understand, because a layer is simply a folder. I can explain that in five minutes to a template programmer. Why does the template programmer need to know about layers? Because in CMF, if you want to customize or create a skin,

[Zope3-dev] Re: Last chance to comment on Simplify skinning

2006-02-15 Thread Philipp von Weitershausen
Tonico Strasser wrote: In CMF things are very easy to understand, because a layer is simply a folder. I can explain that in five minutes to a template programmer. Why does the template programmer need to know about layers? Because in CMF, if you want to customize or create a skin, you need

Re: [Zope3-dev] One namespace for ZCML

2006-02-15 Thread Philipp von Weitershausen
Martijn Faassen wrote: I would really like to hear what kind of directives you imagine for Silva here (and what you mean by new ways to configure components). The following are candidates, though note I haven't thought this through deeply for any of them: * a way to register a Silva

[Zope3-dev] Re: One namespace for ZCML

2006-02-15 Thread Philipp von Weitershausen
Stephan Richter wrote: I realize that and I think at least the concern was valid. As for the solution, I rather prefer the convenience (which reads for me as automation when it get rids of dead chicken direcives) to be in Python. But I think this is exactely the problem. Convenience is often

Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: tal:define=... considered harmful?

2006-02-15 Thread Martijn Faassen
Balazs Ree wrote: On Mon, 13 Feb 2006 18:59:32 +0100 Martijn Faassen wrote: Jean-Marc Orliaguet wrote: I've being working on integrating Balazs Ree's CTAL interpreter recently (added tests, fixes, etc.). CTAL is the equivalent of TAL but for javascript. I just googled around for this, and

Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Last chance to comment on Simplify skinning

2006-02-15 Thread Martijn Faassen
Tonico Strasser wrote: Philipp von Weitershausen wrote: [snip] See, now I even explained this to a template programmer, though I don't think he'd care. Maybe I mean something different. I just want a folder in which I can drop all the files I want to customize (I love to customize),

Re: [Zope3-dev] One namespace for ZCML

2006-02-15 Thread Martijn Faassen
Philipp von Weitershausen wrote: Martijn Faassen wrote: [snip] * a way to register an XSLT renderer. * registering XML importers and exporters. These two immediately triggered adapter in my mind :). XSLT renderer may be a view, that's how we use them now. I think it's a candidate for a

Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: [Zope-dev] Pluggins vs Application Definition

2006-02-15 Thread Benji York
Chris Withers wrote: maybe time to merge zope-dev and zope3-dev? -1 They're still different enough that most traffic on one is not interesting to the majority of subscribers to the other. -- Benji York Senior Software Engineer Zope Corporation ___

Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: tal:define=... considered harmful?

2006-02-15 Thread Benji York
Martijn Faassen wrote: Right, that was my motivation too - I googled around for javascript-based templating languages but realized there wasn't really anything. Of course XSLT can be used this way too, but TAL is kinda neat too. Still, I couldn't think of much practical use for this. Perhaps

[Zope3-dev] Re: Re: tal:define=... considered harmful?

2006-02-15 Thread Balazs Ree
On Wed, 15 Feb 2006 16:41:36 +0100 Martijn Faassen wrote: A separate svn project would be nice. I'm sure z3lab is open; it's also welcome under the z3 base on codespeak. I will then check it in to one of those; seriously, I can't decide which location would be more proper as a home. The z3base

Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: tal:define=... considered harmful?

2006-02-15 Thread Jean-Marc Orliaguet
Benji York wrote: Martijn Faassen wrote: Right, that was my motivation too - I googled around for javascript-based templating languages but realized there wasn't really anything. Of course XSLT can be used this way too, but TAL is kinda neat too. Still, I couldn't think of much practical

Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Re: tal:define=... considered harmful?

2006-02-15 Thread Jean-Marc Orliaguet
Balazs Ree wrote: On Wed, 15 Feb 2006 16:41:36 +0100 Martijn Faassen wrote: A separate svn project would be nice. I'm sure z3lab is open; it's also welcome under the z3 base on codespeak. I will then check it in to one of those; seriously, I can't decide which location would be more

Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Last chance to comment on Simplify skinning

2006-02-15 Thread Paul Winkler
On Wed, Feb 15, 2006 at 03:39:02PM +0100, Philipp von Weitershausen wrote: Maybe I mean something different. I just want a folder in which I can drop all the files I want to customize (I love to customize), without registering something. That's not how it works in Zope 3, at least not

Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Re: tal:define=... considered harmful?

2006-02-15 Thread Martijn Faassen
Balazs Ree wrote: On Wed, 15 Feb 2006 16:41:36 +0100 Martijn Faassen wrote: Are you interested in recovering some of there Zope TAL based regex stuff from Sapling? I'd be happy to merge it in. ctal doesn't appear to have this yet. I must have a look, of course any enhancement would be

Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Re: tal:define=... considered harmful?

2006-02-15 Thread Martijn Faassen
Jean-Marc Orliaguet wrote: Balazs Ree wrote: On Wed, 15 Feb 2006 16:41:36 +0100 Martijn Faassen wrote: Are you interested in recovering some of there Zope TAL based regex stuff from Sapling? I'd be happy to merge it in. ctal doesn't appear to have this yet. I must have a look, of course

Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Last chance to comment on Simplify skinning

2006-02-15 Thread Benji York
Paul Winkler wrote: I have to explicitly register every one of my skin's 35 resources? If the 35 resources (files) are in the same directory you can use the resource directory ZCML directive. Or am I missing something? -- Benji York Senior Software Engineer Zope Corporation

Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Last chance to comment on Simplify skinning

2006-02-15 Thread Paul Winkler
On Wed, Feb 15, 2006 at 12:44:36PM -0500, Benji York wrote: Paul Winkler wrote: I have to explicitly register every one of my skin's 35 resources? If the 35 resources (files) are in the same directory you can use the resource directory ZCML directive. Or am I missing something? Only that

Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Re: tal:define=... considered harmful?

2006-02-15 Thread Jean-Marc Orliaguet
Martijn Faassen wrote: if it doesn't slow things down or add features that are not really needed, I think it's fine, but maybe an explanation would be good as to what it does? It basically does the same thing as ctal does, except less (no tal:repeat for instance, though I did have a

[Zope3-dev] Re: Zope 3 web root

2006-02-15 Thread Velko Ivanov
Hello, I was thinking a lot about the proposed Zope3 web root, and the mentioned RDBMS first class citizenship. I'd like to backup an usecase and propose a somewhat different approach .. First of all, having the ZODB optional and mountable IMHO is a great thing, because it is not always

[Zope3-dev] Re: Zope 3 web root

2006-02-15 Thread Max M
Dario Lopez-Kästen wrote: Sidnei da Silva said the following on 2006-02-14 12:15: On Tue, Feb 14, 2006 at 08:17:04AM +0100, Dario Lopez-Kästen wrote: | Shaun Cutts said the following on 2006-02-14 07:37: | I have seriously considered trying out Django and similar tools to see | if they would

Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Zope 3 web root

2006-02-15 Thread Lennart Regebro
On 2/15/06, Max M [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Remember its the Z Object Publishing Enviroment? Hear, hear! -- Lennart Regebro, Nuxeo http://www.nuxeo.com/ CPS Content Management http://www.cps-project.org/ ___ Zope3-dev mailing list

Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Zope 3 web root

2006-02-15 Thread Gary Poster
On Feb 15, 2006, at 4:21 PM, Lennart Regebro wrote: On 2/15/06, Max M [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Remember its the Z Object Publishing Enviroment? Hear, hear! +1 (Which, to be clear, does not mean we shouldn't encourage people making it easier to use SQL in Zope. But our strength and

RE: [Zope3-dev] Re: One namespace for ZCML

2006-02-15 Thread Roger Ineichen
Hi Philipp [...] Subject: Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: One namespace for ZCML Roger Ineichen wrote: I'm interessted in a menu / menu item refactoring. This means, we could get rid of the implicit magicly registred menus in other directives which ends in unaccessible menu items and will

Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Last chance to comment on Simplify skinning

2006-02-15 Thread Fred Drake
On 2/15/06, Paul Winkler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Only that I have the same question Martijn does: Can I then override one of those resources and keep the other 34? Perhaps the resourceDirectory directive should just be sugar for a set of resource directives, one for each file in the directory?

[Zope3-dev] Swiss Easter Sprint - Announcement

2006-02-15 Thread Roger Ineichen
Swiss Easter Sprint Sorry for cross posting, I just will make sure that nobody feels like not invited and has a chance to participate. When The sprint starts on Saturday, April 8, at 9:00am and will end on Wednesday, April 12 in the afternoon. The official welcome activity will be at noon

RE: [Zope3-dev] Re: Zope 3 web root

2006-02-15 Thread Shaun Cutts
Max M wrote: The problem is that all the people used to LAMP will come to Zope and think Well I will need to think differently here. Thats a bother. I will use sql for everything like usual. And so we will get a lot of duplicated efforts and half-baked Zope developers, who will

Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: One namespace for ZCML

2006-02-15 Thread Tim Peters
[Sidnei da Silva] ... Now whether that's that's the correct interpretation is up to the original author (Tim Peters?) to clarify :) [Fred Drake] I don't know if he's paying attention to this thread, but I'm fairly certain everyone at PythonLabs understood that to refer to namespaces. If Tim

Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Last chance to comment on Simplify skinning

2006-02-15 Thread Jeff Shell
On 2/15/06, Philipp von Weitershausen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I find Zope 3's approach much simpler and much easier to explain than the CMF's approach. In Zope 3 (especially with my proposed changes in place), a layer is simply a label (read: marker interface) on the request. When we now look

Re: [Zope3-dev] Zope 3 web root

2006-02-15 Thread Jeff Shell
On 2/10/06, Shane Hathaway [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Chris Withers wrote: I'd flip that, because I think you and Steve A would agree on one thing: The use of an object database _should_ be a choice, not a requirement, but it should also be the default ;-) Actually, I disagree--I don't want

Re: [Zope3-dev] Last chance to comment on Simplify skinning

2006-02-15 Thread Gary Poster
On Feb 15, 2006, at 6:03 AM, Philipp von Weitershausen wrote: Hi there, a while back I wrote a proposal on simplifying the skinning system (http://dev.zope.org/Zope3/SimplifySkinning). I got a lot of useful feedback which in turn made me update the proposal. Since then I haven't heard much

Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Last chance to comment on Simplify skinning

2006-02-15 Thread Fred Drake
On 2/15/06, Jeff Shell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I would prefer not. We've used resourceDirectory to support things like webcams. The image(s) uploaded by the cams might not always be there, but the containing path is. It's nice not having Zope start Good point. If it was sugar for a set of

Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Last chance to comment on Simplify skinning

2006-02-15 Thread Philipp von Weitershausen
Jeff Shell wrote: I find Zope 3's approach much simpler and much easier to explain than the CMF's approach. In Zope 3 (especially with my proposed changes in place), a layer is simply a label (read: marker interface) on the request. When we now look up pages and resources (e.g. images), we

[Zope3-dev] Re: Zope 3 web root

2006-02-15 Thread suresh
Max M wrote: The problem is that all the people used to LAMP will come to Zope and think Well I will need to think differently here. Thats a bother. I will use sql for everything like usual. And so we will get a lot of duplicated efforts and half-baked Zope developers, who will desperately

Re: [Zope3-dev] Last chance to comment on Simplify skinning

2006-02-15 Thread Philipp von Weitershausen
Hey Gary, thanks for your feedback. I like many parts of it. I didn't like the fact that the zcml ended up being longer. Me neither :(. I didn't love that people had to start asking questions about interface types in order to register a skin. Interface types are a cost--another layer of

Re: [Zope3-dev] Zope 3 web root

2006-02-15 Thread Shane Hathaway
Jeff Shell wrote: Personally, I think that the ZODB is a terrific asset that has achieved a greater level of usability in Zope 3. At least, it has for us, now that we're no longer confused about whether the ZODB should house our persistent objects, or if it should house our icons and scripts

Re: [Zope3-dev] Zope 3 web root

2006-02-15 Thread Jeff Shell
On 2/10/06, Shane Hathaway [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Wade Leftwich wrote: +1 from the standpoint of promoting corporate adoption, especially when combined with first-class citizenship for RDBMS. (In the corporation I work for, anyway.) Yes, RDBMS would become a first-class citizen. New

Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Re: tal:define=... considered harmful?

2006-02-15 Thread Dario Lopez-Kästen
Martijn Faassen said the following on 2006-02-15 18:27: Aah, now I understand where the 'c' comes from. What about 'btal', browser tal? ctal. Client TAL; I see no reason to restrict this to browsers. This has neat and exiting implications for non-browser clients that understand

Re: [Zope3-dev] One namespace for ZCML

2006-02-15 Thread Chris Withers
Philipp von Weitershausen wrote: directives. I realize somewhat is fuzzy. Let me just say that I think ZCML has failed when Plone will have its own ZCML directives... There's a mailing list post from ages ago about going off and humping the leg of the next great thing. Plohn _will_ grow its

Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Zope 3 web root

2006-02-15 Thread Chris Withers
Martin Aspeli wrote: I think that's certainly true for content-centric applications, which is what people seem to build the most of in Zope. But if you were storing 80 million records of numbers and short strings that you needed to query across multiple dimensions, you'd probably put them in

Re: [Zope3-dev] One namespace for ZCML

2006-02-15 Thread Chris Withers
Stephan Richter wrote: That said, there might still be a small percentage of cases where custom directives are a valid tool. I can accept their being on the same namespace as others. In fact, I would like it to be that way, reducing the amount of dead chickens (namespace declarations). I do