RE: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
I always thought the French treated you better if you at least made an attempt at speaking French, live and learn. No, they hate you even more for trying to mock them. They are a very odd group of people. In their defence, I don't think they are any odder than the rest of us. I've always found them perfectly friendly and very patient with my attempts to speak French. I have seen them being impatient and frustrated with people who don't speak French, but probably rather less so than an Anglo-Saxon confronted by a Frenchman who has the temerity not to speak English. Consider the people of Hartlepool: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkey_hanger Salut les mecs! -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
I had to go to Paris every month for about 18 months in the late '70's, and my schoolboy French improved rapidly under the kindly guidance of my French colleagues: outside the office too, people I encountered, mainly waiters and waitresses (I refuse to use 'waitpersons' on the grounds it is an abomination) were always understanding of my usually halting attempts to make myself understood. The worst example of refusal to even try was the English family I encountered who had been in Paris for a week, only ever shouted at the French in English, and complained that they hadn't eaten any decent food since they had been there: hardly surprising, what they did eat probably contained significant amounts of sputum too after they had abused the staff..they were also seated in what I discovered later was in fact one of the worst restaurants on the Champs-Elysée. Faut être sympa, je crois! John in Brisbane -Original Message- From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Bob W Sent: Monday, 8 March 2010 6:28 PM To: 'Pentax-Discuss Mail List' Subject: RE: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010 I always thought the French treated you better if you at least made an attempt at speaking French, live and learn. No, they hate you even more for trying to mock them. They are a very odd group of people. In their defence, I don't think they are any odder than the rest of us. I've always found them perfectly friendly and very patient with my attempts to speak French. I have seen them being impatient and frustrated with people who don't speak French, but probably rather less so than an Anglo-Saxon confronted by a Frenchman who has the temerity not to speak English. Consider the people of Hartlepool: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkey_hanger Salut les mecs! -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
[...] The worst example of refusal to even try was the English family I encountered who had been in Paris for a week, only ever shouted at the French in English, and complained that they hadn't eaten any decent food since they had been there: One of my non-francophone friends complains that he can never find anywhere in France that serves decent food. It's probably because he doesn't know how to ask for it or read the menu properly. hardly surprising, what they did eat probably contained significant amounts of sputum too after they had abused the staff..they were also seated in what I discovered later was in fact one of the worst restaurants on the Champs-Elysée. I suspect that's a crowded field. I've never eaten on the Champs Elysees - in fact, I think I've only ever had coffee there once, it's such a rip-off, and I haven't even been there for about 25 years. My father took us all to Paris for a weekend about 20 years ago. My girlfriend and I, as 'old Paris hands', went off on our own itinerary for the first day, leaving the rest of the (not-very-francophone) family to explore 'les incontournables de Paris'. When we met up later we discovered they'd paid about 450FF (about £45-) on the Champs Elysees for 2 coffees, and later been served with some fairly disgusting food because they didn't know what they were asking for - eg ordering rognons de veau thinking it would be a veal cutlet. I've felt guilty ever since that we didn't look after them a bit better. My guess is that people who've taken against the French may have done so because they've fallen into some spectacular tourist trap and extrapolated from that, as if horrible tourist traps don't exist in every popular destination. Faut être sympa, je crois! -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
On 2/28/2010 4:47 PM, Bob W wrote:
On 2/27/2010 2:11 PM, Bob W wrote:
Bill,
Aren't we the Great Satin or what down here in the USA.
I don't have any trouble taking pictures here.
How about you in Canada?
Canada is the Great Nylon
New York London are the Great Nylon
Canada is the Great Beaver Pelt
Probably explains why there are so few Brazilians in the Yukon.
Now this has taken an interesting turn, Bob, you have the
dirtiest mind.
Wha...? Did I write something dirty? I thought it was an observation about
wildlife and nationhood.
Something about beaver, and Brazilians, but maybe I have a dirty mind.
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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
On 2/27/2010 9:18 PM, David Savage wrote:
On 28 February 2010 06:14, William Robbwar...@gmail.com wrote:
- Original Message - From: Cotty
Subject: Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February
2010
The guy with the camera suddenly became the guy with the attitude, and
that's why he was tossed in a cell.
Could you quote me the statute that says having an attitude is against the
law?
I'd like to read it.
I'm calling bullshit on that line of thinking. Treat people like shit,
and they will respond in the same manner.
A stupid way to behave with people with enough power to ruin your day.
DS
I was trying to stay out of the rest of this, but Bill has a point.
There's no law against being a a-hole, at least not in the US or Canada,
however it's fairly easy for the police to provoke you into being one.
They can then arrest you and generally make your life miserable. It is
an abuse of power. The will generally not have to pay for, unless they
make the mistake picking someone who's extraordinarily rich or well
connected.
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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
On 2/27/2010 11:29 AM, William Robb wrote:
- Original Message - From: P. J. Alling
Subject: Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest,
February 2010
Bill, I love you man, but you know, you can be a total dick, maybe
it's coloring your perception. He was being a total dick, but that
didn't make the cop right.
Hey Peter, I love you too (that should be worthy of a Mark).
But notwithstanding, what would your reaction have been in the same
situation?
Would you have tried to clarify whether you were under arrest?
Would you have asked what justification was in place for the harassment?
Would you have folded up like a used piece of toilet paper?
I saw the video, at no time did I think the guy was disrespectful of
the cop, he just demanded that the cop justify her actions.
When did asking someone in authority justify whether what they are
doing is lawful become being a dick?
My own opinion is that if it is, we are already living in
dictatorships, whether or not we get to play a game and elect a new
dictator every 4 years or so.
William Robb
My reaction would not have been cool. About a week ago I was pulled
over by an /Armed/ police officer. Now I had broken no law, and two
other drivers had clearly broken the law right in front of him, at
exactly the same time. When I pointed this out he admitted it he had
seen them but decided it was more important to give me a warning for
doing something that was perfectly legal, rather than issue a money
making traffic ticket to someone richly deserving of one. I pretty much
lost it. I reamed him out in a loud voice, quite vehemently. I have no
ideal what I would have done in the position of the photographer, but
it probably wouldn't have been pretty.
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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
This kind of thing /might/ even be justified if they actually managed to
catch an actual terrorist once every great while.
On 2/27/2010 1:29 PM, Cotty wrote:
While we're on the subject, here's another one:
http://tinyurl.com/fanciedfishnchips
Video as well, half-way down on the left. This is very near me.
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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
So this is the 'lay of the land' in most places.
Local police/law enforcement officers get a lot of leave to do things their way.
You want to be an a**hole, they'll be a**holes right back to you.
So tell me how this attitude benefits you personally?
It's juvenile behavior or galloping paranoia or both.
Take a chill pill...
Regards, Bob S.
On Sun, Mar 7, 2010 at 8:25 PM, P. J. Alling webstertwenty...@gmail.com wrote:
On 2/27/2010 9:18 PM, David Savage wrote:
On 28 February 2010 06:14, William Robbwar...@gmail.com wrote:
- Original Message - From: Cotty
Subject: Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest,
February
2010
The guy with the camera suddenly became the guy with the attitude, and
that's why he was tossed in a cell.
Could you quote me the statute that says having an attitude is against
the
law?
I'd like to read it.
I'm calling bullshit on that line of thinking. Treat people like shit,
and they will respond in the same manner.
A stupid way to behave with people with enough power to ruin your day.
DS
I was trying to stay out of the rest of this, but Bill has a point. There's
no law against being a a-hole, at least not in the US or Canada, however
it's fairly easy for the police to provoke you into being one. They can
then arrest you and generally make your life miserable. It is an abuse of
power. The will generally not have to pay for, unless they make the mistake
picking someone who's extraordinarily rich or well connected.
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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
On 2/27/2010 3:07 PM, Ralf R. Radermacher wrote:
Rob Studdertdistudio.p...@gmail.com wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAUan2DXBsk
Sneaky photographers...
Actually, that guy's been rather lucky. I've been stopped by the French
police in Dunkirk, last xmas, taking one of my usual nighttime photos of
the steel mill over there.
Their line of argument? There are half a dozen Seveso class plants, i.e.
they're working with toxic substances, so I can't photograph them. I was
about to ask them what would make it any more dangerous to take photos
in comparison to walking a dog, speeding along on a quad or fishing
which is what dozens of people were doing there at the same time.
I bit my tongue instead because one doesn't argue with the French
police. They can take you to the station and keep you there for days on
end without having to inform anyone, not even a judge or a prosecutor. I
simply packed everything back into the car while they spent half an hour
on their phones and radios with my ID card, inside their vehicle.
Oh, and they were extremely suspicious about me speaking French although
my car had German number plates. I told them that foreign languages can
be learned with a little effort. They didn't seem to like this concept.
Note to self: French officials will in the future have to deal with me
in German. That sure will be fun.
I always thought the French treated you better if you at least made an
attempt at speaking French, live and learn.
Now, for our coming Easter holidays I'll either obtain an official photo
permit from the Dunkirk port authority that I can wave in their faces or
that'll be it as far as my 30 years of travelling to France are
concerned. Pity, really.
Ralf
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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
- Original Message - From: P. J. Alling Subject: Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010 I always thought the French treated you better if you at least made an attempt at speaking French, live and learn. No, they hate you even more for trying to mock them. They are a very odd group of people. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
- Original Message - From: paul stenquist Subject: Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest,February 2010 I am loyal to the country that has guaranteed my freedom. There is a difference between unwavering loyalty and unquestioning obeidience. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
Careful Bill or you might find some surprises on the unquestioning obedience/civil disobedience issues. Some of us are children of the '60's and were in Chicago for the '68 Democratic Convention fuss. Regards, Bob S. On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 6:00 AM, William Robb war...@gmail.com wrote: - Original Message - From: paul stenquist Subject: Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest,February 2010 I am loyal to the country that has guaranteed my freedom. There is a difference between unwavering loyalty and unquestioning obeidience. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
On Mar 1, 2010, at 10:22 AM, Bob Sullivan wrote: Careful Bill or you might find some surprises on the unquestioning obedience/civil disobedience issues. Some of us are children of the '60's and were in Chicago for the '68 Democratic Convention fuss. Regards, Bob S. I was at the Battle of Balboa. We never made it over the bridge, but we did get some elected officials to pay attention -- no to mention the millions who saw it on TV. Paul -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
On Mon, 01 Mar 2010 09:22:03 -0600 Bob Sullivan rf.sulli...@gmail.com wrote: Careful Bill or you might find some surprises on the unquestioning obedience/civil disobedience issues. Some of us are children of the '60's and were in Chicago for the '68 Democratic Convention fuss. I remember the Chicago 7 and the Yippies though I had not quite attained sentience at that point. -- Love is that condition in which the happiness of another person is essential to your own... Jealousy is a disease, love is a healthy condition.- Robert Heinlein -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
On Feb 27, 2010, at 11:35 PM, Subash wrote: On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 12:31 PM, P N Stenquist pnstenqu...@comcast.net wrote: On Feb 27, 2010, at 12:28 PM, steve harley wrote: On 2010-02-27 06:13 , paul stenquist wrote: I think that's true, but the alternative may have been worse: a mega Iran and a strong Soviet presence in the middle east. There's no way to flip the switch and see what might have happened if Afghan and Iraq hadn't had U.S. support back in the day. so the alternative may also have been better Of course. But if no one ever intervened, we'd all be goose stepping today. Paul, you may not like hearing this, but a lot of times, you already are... That's just nonsense. I enjoy as much freedom of choice and movement as anyone on the planet. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
On 28 February 2010 03:35, Bob W p...@web-options.com wrote: Now, I'm a middle class, middle-aged, mild-mannered white guy. How do you think they react to young Muslim lads who want to take a few pictures? Bob They'd respond like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McB9tsabPn0 regards, Anthony Of what use is lens and light to those who lack in mind and sight (Anon) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
On 28 February 2010 04:32, mike wilson m.9.wil...@ntlworld.com wrote: I'd like to have seen him try it in 99% of other countries. His head would have been lumpier than school custard. Which is one reason why living in the free world is suppossed to be better than living in 99% of other countries. The problem is that the 'betterness' is vanishing before our eyes. regards, Anthony -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
- Original Message - From: Bob Sullivan Subject: Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010 On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 8:56 PM, William Robb war...@gmail.com wrote: As I mentioned earlier in this thread, a friend of mine has been accosted by the police twice in the past year for photographing while in a wheelchair. Well no, I believe you said in his VAN. Van with handicapped plates, I'd wonder. Old beater van, rusting in spots, I'd be all over it! Relatively new van, no rust, handicapped plates, little guy with gray hair (he's 65). But this leads to an intersting question: Why would you be all over an old vehicle with some rust? Are people who can't afford new cars somehow automatically second class citizens or criminals who deserve to be treated with less respect than someone who has the wherewithall and interest in buying a new car every few years? William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
Yup Bill, my prejudice. If your driving an old rust bucket/beater, you're somebody I'd want to keep an eye on. :-) A terrorist would probably rent a new van, but other undesirables really don't. Regards, Bob S. On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 7:37 AM, William Robb war...@gmail.com wrote: - Original Message - From: Bob Sullivan Subject: Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010 On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 8:56 PM, William Robb war...@gmail.com wrote: As I mentioned earlier in this thread, a friend of mine has been accosted by the police twice in the past year for photographing while in a wheelchair. Well no, I believe you said in his VAN. Van with handicapped plates, I'd wonder. Old beater van, rusting in spots, I'd be all over it! Relatively new van, no rust, handicapped plates, little guy with gray hair (he's 65). But this leads to an intersting question: Why would you be all over an old vehicle with some rust? Are people who can't afford new cars somehow automatically second class citizens or criminals who deserve to be treated with less respect than someone who has the wherewithall and interest in buying a new car every few years? William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
On 2010-02-27 15:32 , Christine Aguila wrote: 3c) Folks who sympathize with the photograrapher are assuming the photographer is telling the truth about him *just out taking pictures, minding his own business* and that he wasn't using his camera in an anti-social manner (whatever that means--see point 3). It occurred to me that one could easily stage this kind of event--a kind of set-up entrapment--contrive events to provoke behavior of others. please don't tell me what i assumed; my take on it comes from the taped interaction, and the narration didn't make much difference to me; even if he intentionally provoked the situation, the cops didn't handle it with the aplomb that should be expected of them and yes, it bugged me that he didn't show his face, but the guy is protecting his privacy, which is the right he was defending in the first place; that's a red herring -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
On 2/27/2010 9:15 PM, David Savage wrote:
On 28 February 2010 06:13, William Robbwar...@gmail.com wrote:
- Original Message - From: Cotty
Subject: Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February
2010
As a point of principle I suppose I agree that stop and search is open
to abuse and judging by the original youtube video, it is plain to see.
However, I still maintain the bloke in question was being adversarial
and that is only going to end up with one result.
That being a false arrest and a monetary settlement I hope.
Exactly. If he hadn't behaved like a dick the situation would most
likely worked out differently.
I've been questioned by enough police/security/random citizens when
out photographing stuff fo know, that if you get your back up and have
an attitude the other party will get behave in kind. Keeping the
confrontation light and chatty will see the situation resolve in my
favour.
DS
Just after 9/11 I was out at 2:AM shooting some fisheye night shots.
I'm standing on a deserted street corner across the street from the
local Post Office, camera on tripod dog sitting patiently nearby, (damn
it's been a long time since I've had a /patient/ dog), when a police
cruiser rolls by. I continue setting up for the shot and I see him turn
around at the end the main drag, as it were, and come rolling back. He
stops, rolls down his window, and asks; Taking some pictures? My
response; Yes, I am. His response; Have fun! and rolls off. Now
any fool could see I was taking a picture. The point is, that, that was
the extent of my hassle with the police. I didn't know the officer, he
didn't know me, but nothing I was doing was suspicious except for the
time of night.
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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
On 2/27/2010 1:11 PM, David Savage wrote:
On 28 February 2010 02:02, David Savageozsav...@gmail.com wrote:
On 27 February 2010 19:17, Cottycotty...@mac.com wrote:
On 26/2/10, Bob W, discombobulated, unleashed:
I think you're 100% wrong on this, Cotty. I refer you to Willcock vs Muckle:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarence_Henry_Willcock
The PCSO in that film was an idiot, which is to be expected of PCSOs. The
policewoman was bang out of order, abusing her authority. The photographer
appears to know his rights rather more than most of us do, so presumably was
deliberately pushing for this to happen, just as Willcock did in 1951, but
somebody needs to put a stop to this type of abuse of authority.
Hmm - there is nothing in the above para that I disagree with except the
abuse of authority bit. If the police have the power to stop and search
under a lawful act, how is that an abuse of authority?
In any society you're going to get unscripted and spontaneous incidents
on the ground and these probably happen in the dozens in the UK every
day. Name me a few countries in the world where this sort of incident
would have had a better outcome and I will consider moving there.
Fremantle, Australia.
Today I spent 5 hours wandering the streets of Fremantle with a few
photographer friends. We were very obvious, and we didn't get any
particularly strange looks (we do silly looking things when we get
together).
The only time the cops approached us is after we talked a couple of
pretty little things to pose on the median strip in the centre of the
main street with cars driving past on either side. And they were more
concerned for us getting hit by an idiot driver, than the fact.
...we were taking photos
Glad you clarified that.
You should move here anyway for the scenery. I have a sore neck from
constantly snapping if left right. I was spoilt for choice didn't
know where to look.
Gawd I love hot summer evenings.
lecherous grin
DS
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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
On 2/27/2010 1:40 PM, Cotty wrote:
On 28/2/10, David Savage, discombobulated, unleashed:
Fremantle, Australia.
Today I spent 5 hours wandering the streets of Fremantle with a few
photographer friends. We were very obvious, and we didn't get any
particularly strange looks (we do silly looking things when we get
together).
The only time the cops approached us is after we talked a couple of
pretty little things to pose on the median strip in the centre of the
main street with cars driving past on either side. And they were more
concerned for us getting hit by an idiot driver, than the fact.
You should move here anyway for the scenery. I have a sore neck from
constantly snapping if left right. I was spoilt for choice didn't
know where to look.
Gawd I love hot summer evenings.
lecherous grin
I would consider Australia. Someone else was telling me they would go
back in an instant. Oh yeah my neighbour.
Apparently I started the holocaust or something, do you think they would
still let me in?
I'm not sure Canada would let you in, and I think they'll let anybody in.
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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
On 2/27/2010 11:42 AM, William Robb wrote:
- Original Message - From: paul stenquist
Subject: Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror'
arrest,February 2010
I think that's true, but the alternative may have been worse: a mega
Iran and a strong Soviet presence in the middle east. There's no way
to flip the switch and see what might have happened if Afghan and
Iraq hadn't had U.S. support back in the day.
Meddling with other peoples governments is usually not a very good
thing to do.
The USA seems to think it have a God given right to do it, and then
justify it under the theory that if it's good for the USA it's good
for everyone.
It usually works out to be bad for everyone, just less bad for the USA
in that less Americans get killed by a factor of a thousand or so.
William Robb
Every government meddles in every other countries governmemt some are
just more direct and have more power.
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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
On 2/27/2010 2:11 PM, Bob W wrote:
Bill,
Aren't we the Great Satin or what down here in the USA.
I don't have any trouble taking pictures here.
How about you in Canada?
Canada is the Great Nylon
New York London are the Great Nylon
Canada is the Great Beaver Pelt
Probably explains why there are so few Brazilians in the Yukon.
Now this has taken an interesting turn, Bob, you have the dirtiest mind.
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RE: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
On 2/27/2010 2:11 PM, Bob W wrote: Bill, Aren't we the Great Satin or what down here in the USA. I don't have any trouble taking pictures here. How about you in Canada? Canada is the Great Nylon New York London are the Great Nylon Canada is the Great Beaver Pelt Probably explains why there are so few Brazilians in the Yukon. Now this has taken an interesting turn, Bob, you have the dirtiest mind. Wha...? Did I write something dirty? I thought it was an observation about wildlife and nationhood. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
- Original Message - From: Bob Sullivan Subject: Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010 Yup Bill, my prejudice. If your driving an old rust bucket/beater, you're somebody I'd want to keep an eye on. :-) Interesting perspective. Considering what an incredibly bad investement a car is, the smart person buys a used one that has lost it's shiney new value and drives it until it falls apart, and then repeats the process. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
- Original Message - From: P. J. Alling Subject: Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010 Just after 9/11 I was out at 2:AM shooting some fisheye night shots. I'm standing on a deserted street corner across the street from the local Post Office, camera on tripod dog sitting patiently nearby, (damn it's been a long time since I've had a /patient/ dog), when a police cruiser rolls by. I continue setting up for the shot and I see him turn around at the end the main drag, as it were, and come rolling back. He stops, rolls down his window, and asks; Taking some pictures? My response; Yes, I am. His response; Have fun! and rolls off. Now any fool could see I was taking a picture. The point is, that, that was the extent of my hassle with the police. I didn't know the officer, he didn't know me, but nothing I was doing was suspicious except for the time of night. That's pretty much how things should be handled. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
- Original Message - From: P. J. Alling Subject: Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010 Every government meddles in every other countries governmemt some are just more direct and have more power. And look how it comes back to bite you. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
- Original Message - From: paul stenquist Subject: Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest,February 2010 Of course. But if no one ever intervened, we'd all be goose stepping today. Paul, you may not like hearing this, but a lot of times, you already are... That's just nonsense. I enjoy as much freedom of choice and movement as anyone on the planet. The master of misinterpretation strikes again. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
On Feb 28, 2010, at 6:55 PM, William Robb wrote: - Original Message - From: paul stenquist Subject: Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest,February 2010 Of course. But if no one ever intervened, we'd all be goose stepping today. Paul, you may not like hearing this, but a lot of times, you already are... That's just nonsense. I enjoy as much freedom of choice and movement as anyone on the planet. The master of misinterpretation strikes again. Don't you ever tire of this? Bed time for Billy. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
- Original Message - From: paul stenquist Subject: Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest,February 2010 Don't you ever tire of this? Bed time for Billy. Nope. I think you are a time zone ahead of me, perhaps Paulie should get his little mammy to put him in his jammies and tuck him in after a nice glass of milk and some cookies. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
On Feb 28, 2010, at 7:46 PM, William Robb wrote: - Original Message - From: paul stenquist Subject: Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest,February 2010 Don't you ever tire of this? Bed time for Billy. Nope. I think you are a time zone ahead of me, perhaps Paulie should get his little mammy to put him in his Wow. what wit. You were actually able to mimic my post, apparently without help. Good boy! How many times are you going to repeat your post about that photographer in the UK? 500? But you probably don't know you're repeating yourself. Sad, but not unexpected. You are now in the trash bin. I'm really tired of your inane nonsense, and the solution is simple. Paul jammies and tuck him in after a nice glass of milk and some cookies. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
On Feb 28, 2010, at 05:37 , William Robb wrote: - Original Message - From: Bob Sullivan Subject: Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010 On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 8:56 PM, William Robb war...@gmail.com wrote: As I mentioned earlier in this thread, a friend of mine has been accosted by the police twice in the past year for photographing while in a wheelchair. Well no, I believe you said in his VAN. Van with handicapped plates, I'd wonder. Old beater van, rusting in spots, I'd be all over it! Relatively new van, no rust, handicapped plates, little guy with gray hair (he's 65). But this leads to an intersting question: Why would you be all over an old vehicle with some rust? Are people who can't afford new cars somehow automatically second class citizens or criminals who deserve to be treated with less respect than someone who has the wherewithall and interest in buying a new car every few years? William Robb Wait just minute, boys. I drive an old van (mini variety) with a rusty roof and peeling paint thanks to a bad paint formula decision made some 25 years ago by some Chrysler chemist. But the engineers also made a decision to put a Mitsubishi made 3.3 liter V-6 in it that is rumored to be able to run forever with proper care. I'm not one to flaunt my feigned largess with new cars (in fact I can't afford a new anything other than food and Pentax equipment) but it does put me in a much more dim light amongst my peers. Bothers me not. My hunk of steel and plastic parts will not need to be replaced for many years to come (fingers crossed) allowing some portion of steel and oil derived plastic to remain unused in building said replacement. I get no respect. But I've bought enough carbon credits by now with this boat to get a new Pentax body every year for the past three, and perhaps the next three! Hoya loves me. Soon many beautiful young women will be lining up to be photographed by my elite equipment, I'm told. So HAH! Joseph McAllister pentax...@mac.com http://gallery.me.com/jomac http://web.me.com/jomac/show.me/Blog/Blog.html -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 6:55 PM, William Robb war...@gmail.com wrote: - Original Message - From: paul stenquist Subject: Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest,February 2010 Of course. But if no one ever intervened, we'd all be goose stepping today. Paul, you may not like hearing this, but a lot of times, you already are... That's just nonsense. I enjoy as much freedom of choice and movement as anyone on the planet. The master of misinterpretation strikes again. Paul, over a range of issues discussed here over the last many years, i've never seen anyone more ready/willing to embrace uncritically the official spin on things. that, to me, is as much goose-stepping, as anything could possibly be. you may have your reasons. not everyone has to look at things that way... -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
Joe, I don't drive new cars, but they aren't rusty either. Rusty is a cancer that you can never cure. Been there, done that. Lucky you have a good engine. My Ford Freestar is a piece of junk... Regards, Bob S. On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 9:25 PM, Joseph McAllister pentax...@mac.com wrote: On Feb 28, 2010, at 05:37 , William Robb wrote: - Original Message - From: Bob Sullivan Subject: Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010 On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 8:56 PM, William Robb war...@gmail.com wrote: As I mentioned earlier in this thread, a friend of mine has been accosted by the police twice in the past year for photographing while in a wheelchair. Well no, I believe you said in his VAN. Van with handicapped plates, I'd wonder. Old beater van, rusting in spots, I'd be all over it! Relatively new van, no rust, handicapped plates, little guy with gray hair (he's 65). But this leads to an intersting question: Why would you be all over an old vehicle with some rust? Are people who can't afford new cars somehow automatically second class citizens or criminals who deserve to be treated with less respect than someone who has the wherewithall and interest in buying a new car every few years? William Robb Wait just minute, boys. I drive an old van (mini variety) with a rusty roof and peeling paint thanks to a bad paint formula decision made some 25 years ago by some Chrysler chemist. But the engineers also made a decision to put a Mitsubishi made 3.3 liter V-6 in it that is rumored to be able to run forever with proper care. I'm not one to flaunt my feigned largess with new cars (in fact I can't afford a new anything other than food and Pentax equipment) but it does put me in a much more dim light amongst my peers. Bothers me not. My hunk of steel and plastic parts will not need to be replaced for many years to come (fingers crossed) allowing some portion of steel and oil derived plastic to remain unused in building said replacement. I get no respect. But I've bought enough carbon credits by now with this boat to get a new Pentax body every year for the past three, and perhaps the next three! Hoya loves me. Soon many beautiful young women will be lining up to be photographed by my elite equipment, I'm told. So HAH! Joseph McAllister pentax...@mac.com http://gallery.me.com/jomac http://web.me.com/jomac/show.me/Blog/Blog.html -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
On Feb 28, 2010, at 10:46 PM, Subash wrote: On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 6:55 PM, William Robb war...@gmail.com wrote: - Original Message - From: paul stenquist Subject: Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest,February 2010 Of course. But if no one ever intervened, we'd all be goose stepping today. Paul, you may not like hearing this, but a lot of times, you already are... That's just nonsense. I enjoy as much freedom of choice and movement as anyone on the planet. The master of misinterpretation strikes again. Paul, over a range of issues discussed here over the last many years, i've never seen anyone more ready/willing to embrace uncritically the official spin on things. that, to me, is as much goose-stepping, as anything could possibly be. you may have your reasons. not everyone has to look at things that way... Of course. No one has to see things the same way I do. But to suggest that I'm influenced by some kind of official spin is just silly. My opinions are as much my own as are yours. I do resent some of the blatant anti-American sentiment that is so prevalent today, and I have at times tried to provide some balance. Perhaps you see that as official spin. I have no desire to get into deep political discussions here This isn't the place for it. But I've been around a long time, and my experience has run the gamut. I was a member of SDS and a number of other radical progressive groups in the sixties. But I was also able to see where it was all going. Today, I'm defiantly independent. I don't buy anyone's definitions, politics or spin -- least of all that of the contemporary progressives, who approach every issue with religious zeal. I think the lemming-like way that the current left defines every issue sometimes moves me to respond in venues where i should remain silent. I'm no fan of big government, but I am loyal to the country that has guaranteed my freedom. I'll have no further comment about this. As I said, this is not the place for this type of discussion. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
If I were casing for a terrorist attack I wouldn't be using an SLR, I
either use a Cell Phone camera or the biggest baddest looking Video
camera I could find complete with support truck and assistants, and try
to look like an indie film crew. I doubt the cops would hassle either.
Your tax money is as completely wasted on this as ours is on what we
laughingly call airport security.
On 2/26/2010 2:36 PM, Cotty wrote:
On 26/2/10, Rob Studdert, discombobulated, unleashed:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAUan2DXBsk
Sneaky photographers...
Sorry but that guy was being a total dick. he was adversarial by nature
and got what was coming to him - because the police can. It's not the
same as it was only a few years ago, we live in a different society -
admittedly not an ideal society but whose fault is that...
Net result, they have his details and he spent 8 hours detained, so
where is his victory?
If 99 innocent snappers get asked for their details (with nothing to
hide) and the 100th turns out to be a nutter casing the joint, or a
peado or whatever, then my tax money is working. I don't want to live in
fear on the street as I might elsewhere in the world.
.02
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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
On 2/27/2010 2:43 AM, William Robb wrote:
- Original Message - From: Ken Waller
Subject: Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest,
February 2010
My advice is to stock up on collectible spoons while you can...
Or move to Canada.
A friend of mine here has been hassled twice by the police for
photographing while being a paraplegic.
It'a quite appalling actually.
The first time, the police wanted him to get out of his vehicle, so he
asked the officer if he would mind getting him his wheelchair from the
back of the van.
The cop went away.
The next time, the police came to his door and questioned him fairly
severely. He voluntarily showed them the contents of his computer, and
they went away.
This was caused by people getting their shorts in a knot because they
saw a large camera in public.
The train has left the atation here as well.
The trend is to take big cameras off the street, not all cameras.
Anyone who says the world changed after 9/11 should be prepared to
justify exactly what sort of threat the big camera represents that a
cell phone camera or PS camera doesnt.
Why do we still allow cars to drive through the downtowns of our
cities? Any one of them could be a car bomber looking for a nice
office tower to blow up.
Why is that not looked upon as a threat, but the hobby photographer
with an SLR is?
I submit, most respectfully that it is a propoganda campaign as evil
as any that we've ever seen, and anyone that buys into it is just not
thinking very hard.
William Robb
The world did change after 9/11 but it didn't make governments any less
stupid.
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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
I'd use google maps street view.
DS
On 27 February 2010 16:19, P. J. Alling webstertwenty...@gmail.com wrote:
If I were casing for a terrorist attack I wouldn't be using an SLR, I either
use a Cell Phone camera or the biggest baddest looking Video camera I could
find complete with support truck and assistants, and try to look like an
indie film crew. I doubt the cops would hassle either. Your tax money is
as completely wasted on this as ours is on what we laughingly call airport
security.
On 2/26/2010 2:36 PM, Cotty wrote:
On 26/2/10, Rob Studdert, discombobulated, unleashed:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAUan2DXBsk
Sneaky photographers...
Sorry but that guy was being a total dick. he was adversarial by nature
and got what was coming to him - because the police can. It's not the
same as it was only a few years ago, we live in a different society -
admittedly not an ideal society but whose fault is that...
Net result, they have his details and he spent 8 hours detained, so
where is his victory?
If 99 innocent snappers get asked for their details (with nothing to
hide) and the 100th turns out to be a nutter casing the joint, or a
peado or whatever, then my tax money is working. I don't want to live in
fear on the street as I might elsewhere in the world.
.02
--
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Cotty
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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
Cotty said: Sorry but that guy was being a total dick. Since when is standing up for your rights being a total dick just as a by the way sort of question? William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
- Original Message - From: P. J. Alling Subject: Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010 The world did change after 9/11 but it didn't make governments any less stupid. Are you sure? Most governments have done a very good job of whipping people into enough of a frenzy of fear that they are now seeing pedophiles, terrorists and all sorts of bad people any time they see something that they can brand as suspicious, as defined by said government. I mean really, does this look like the work of a government that is trying to keep it's citizens feeling safe? http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k110/mcmadcow/big_brother_f.jpg I respectfully submit that any government that can has taken the ball that Bin Laden tossed out there for them and is using it to make it's citizens feel as insecure as possible. A scared person is more likely to let his rights and freedoms be taken than a confident person. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
On Sat, 27 Feb 2010 01:55:13 -0600 William Robb war...@gmail.com wrote: - Original Message - From: Subash Subject: Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010 nature and got what was coming to him - because the police can. It's not the same as it was only a few years ago, we live in a different society - admittedly not an ideal society but whose fault is that... Cotty, IIRC, this is the third or fourth time on the list you've said something like that, that it's no longer the same world or something to that effect. i would like you to expand on that, if you may. am just curious to know what exactly you mean by that. you may choose not to, of course :-)) It's not the same society. A VERY BAD THING happened on September 11, 2001, and ever since then, governments have been using it as an excuse to consolidate power. Perhaps they see the really big camera as a threat, perhaps they just see the really big camera as an easy target of harassment so that it looks like they are doing something while doing nothing that will benefit anyone. Great Britain is leading the Fascist charge, and we are all moving closer and closer to effectively living in elected dictatorships where we have no freedoms. The fact that in Britain a street photographer who has done no wrong can be arrested for antisocial positioning of a camera should scare the living shit out of anyone who leaves their home with a camera strap around their neck. thanks Bill, appreciate that. as for 9/11, you have my sympathies, it *was* a bad thing to happen *but* very bad things have been happening elsewhere all along, and i would just like to say that both al qaeda and saddam were creations of the US in their proxy wars against the former USSR and Iran respectively. one has to be really naive to play a politics of convenience and not expect it to boomerang badly sometime or the other... as to dslrs in public places, it's not such big problem here yet though after the mumbai terror attacks of 2008, things like that are beginning to happen here too. cameras in big numbers in public places are still relatively rare here and is generally accepted as long as one is obviously seen to be a 'tourist' photographing landmarks. if not people kind of get self-conscious and start posing. :-) as to the authorities it is still not such a big problem yet. we have a flickr group here who do once a month photo-walks and there is the occasional pompous policeman trying to throw his weight around. that can of course be handled because usually he is clueless about the law anyway (in india, photography is legal and permitted in any public place that does not have an explicit, visible directive from the government banning photography: usually around 'sensitive' and 'defence' sites). if governments thrive by creating paranoia, on a first reading at least, Cotty's post appeared to me as evidence of the fact that they've succeeded quite well. i may be wrong, of course...besides, as dave points out, has nobody heard of google maps and google earth? not to speak of OSM? :) regards, subash -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
On 2/27/10, Subash pdml.l...@gmail.com wrote: elsewhere all along, and i would just like to say that both al qaeda and saddam were creations of the US in their proxy wars against the former USSR and Iran respectively. one has to be really naive to play a politics of convenience and not expect it to boomerang badly sometime or the other... I agree with the basic notion that many of America's difficulties are brought on by their own policies. If you'd called Taliban a creation of the CIA and Pakistani intelligence, I'd have agreed with that, too. However, I think you are overstating the case; the examples you give seem wrong to me. Certainly Al Qaeda had a role in the Soviet vs Afghan war, and were heavily backed by the US ally (some would say puppet) Saudi Arabia, almost certainly with US approval. For all I know, they may have had US aid as well. However, that is rather different from being a creation of the US. As for Saddam, he was vice president and a key player in the Iraqi gov't from about 1970, back when the Shah was still in power in Iran and a close US ally. You cannot blame the US for creating Saddam's regime either. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
On 26/2/10, Bob W, discombobulated, unleashed: I think you're 100% wrong on this, Cotty. I refer you to Willcock vs Muckle: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarence_Henry_Willcock The PCSO in that film was an idiot, which is to be expected of PCSOs. The policewoman was bang out of order, abusing her authority. The photographer appears to know his rights rather more than most of us do, so presumably was deliberately pushing for this to happen, just as Willcock did in 1951, but somebody needs to put a stop to this type of abuse of authority. Hmm - there is nothing in the above para that I disagree with except the abuse of authority bit. If the police have the power to stop and search under a lawful act, how is that an abuse of authority? In any society you're going to get unscripted and spontaneous incidents on the ground and these probably happen in the dozens in the UK every day. Name me a few countries in the world where this sort of incident would have had a better outcome and I will consider moving there. -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche -- http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
On Sat, 27 Feb 2010 18:16:46 +0800 Sandy Harris sandyinch...@gmail.com wrote: On 2/27/10, Subash pdml.l...@gmail.com wrote: elsewhere all along, and i would just like to say that both al qaeda and saddam were creations of the US in their proxy wars against the former USSR and Iran respectively. one has to be really naive to play a politics of convenience and not expect it to boomerang badly sometime or the other... I agree with the basic notion that many of America's difficulties are brought on by their own policies. If you'd called Taliban a creation of the CIA and Pakistani intelligence, I'd have agreed with that, too. However, I think you are overstating the case; the examples you give seem wrong to me. and i think you are understating the case: both al qaeda and saddam wouldn't have become what they were/are but for US backing and material support...that's what i meant by 'US creations'... regards, subash -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
On 27/2/10, Subash, discombobulated, unleashed: Cotty, IIRC, this is the third or fourth time on the list you've said something like that, that it's no longer the same world or something to that effect. i would like you to expand on that, if you may. am just curious to know what exactly you mean by that. you may choose not to, of course :-)) Simply that the idea that someone may not be photographing just for personal pleasure anymore - and in fact may be pursuing a line of illegality - eg recce of a building entrance, or snapping up little girls' skirts, means that the public are more aware of such activities, and rightly or wrongly are more likely to highlight innocent activity to the authorities. Someone seemingly 'acting suspiciously' (define that - ha!) in a crowd environment is more likely to attract attention in 2010 than only 20 or 30 years ago from people who are more aware and informed by the media. 20 or 30 years ago much fewer people were aware that there are people about who photograph children in compromising situations (for example) and even though the activity itself has probably been going on for ages, the awareness has only increased relatively recently. Similarly the photographing of bridges, buildings etc. I pass no judgement on it being right or wrong, just that that is what I see has happened. Tell you a story. I was filming in the centre of a city and we had finished and I was putting my kit away in the back of the land rover. As I drove away I noticed a strange woman looking at me and thought she was just staring because I was pulling out perilously close to her car or something. Next day I had a phone call from the police - was asked if I could meet them in a car park that I would be passing close to that day. Turns out that the woman had seen something she thought was a gun being holstered and put away in the back of my land rover! The police had done some digging based on my vehicle registration (license plate) and seeing what I did for a living, assumed a mistake in the lady. They were doing a 'soft stop' on me to check. I figured out what the lady had seen, I have a microphone and holder with wind-gag that look like this: http://tinyurl.com/notagun and before it goes in the case the wind gag (the furry part) often needs adjusting up tight (looks like a gun going into a holster). We all had a good laugh about it - and the copper said he had thought it would be something like this - had done the digging and decided a soft stop was in order rather than a 'hard stop' which would have involved armed police stopping me in an uncompromising manner - slightly scary. However, common sense prevailed (as did my website, which they looked at in assessing the situation) and we went away chuckling. My point is that the system worked. The woman might have seen a gun going into a holster, and on a different occasion it might have been a gun and not a mic. The police did their job well and no harm done. If it had been a hard stop instead, the outcome would be the same and aside from me being scared out of my wits, would have been just as satisfied. Seriously. That story doesn't really relate to the other stuff above because we have had a history of mainland terror in the last half of the last century but all the same, I still think public awareness in the UK has changed, and anyone out filming or photographing has to be more aware of this and in tune with the consequences. -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche -- http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
On 27/2/10, William Robb, discombobulated, unleashed: Anyone who says the world changed after 9/11 should be prepared to justify exactly what sort of threat the big camera represents that a cell phone camera or PS camera doesnt. I think your premise is wrong. The threat comes from smaller cameras and cell phones just as much as big cameras. It is the activity that attracts attention, not the size of the camera IMO. YMMV. -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche -- http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
On 2/27/2010 3:40 AM, William Robb wrote:
Cotty said:
Sorry but that guy was being a total dick.
Since when is standing up for your rights being a total dick just as a
by the way sort of question?
William Robb
Bill, I love you man, but you know, you can be a total dick, maybe it's
coloring your perception. He was being a total dick, but that didn't
make the cop right. Cotty seems to think that the authorities are
justified in doing just about anything to keep the populace safe.
Unfortunately in England you no longer have a right to personal self
defense, so only the Cops can legally protect you. That probably is
coloring his perceptions.
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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
On 27/2/10, William Robb, discombobulated, unleashed: It's not the same society. A VERY BAD THING happened on September 11, 2001, and ever since then, governments have been using it as an excuse to consolidate power. Perhaps they see the really big camera as a threat, perhaps they just see the really big camera as an easy target of harassment so that it looks like they are doing something while doing nothing that will benefit anyone. Great Britain is leading the Fascist charge, and we are all moving closer and closer to effectively living in elected dictatorships where we have no freedoms. The fact that in Britain a street photographer who has done no wrong can be arrested for antisocial positioning of a camera should scare the living shit out of anyone who leaves their home with a camera strap around their neck. Bill, I'm sorry but this is verging on paranoia. Get a grip man! -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche -- http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
On 27/2/10, William Robb, discombobulated, unleashed: Since when is standing up for your rights being a total dick just as a by the way sort of question? Nothing wrong with standing up for your rights at all - I do it regularly. The bloke in the Youtube video was being adversarial about it and the result was always going to be obvious (to me anyway). As my wife says, 'there are ways, and ways.' -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche -- http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
On 27/2/10, Subash, discombobulated, unleashed: if governments thrive by creating paranoia, on a first reading at least, Cotty's post appeared to me as evidence of the fact that they've succeeded quite well. I do not read the same out of what I wrote as you do Subers. I am not paranoid - I perceive the situation and arrive at a conclusion I am happy with. I guess that might be paranoia in your books? -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche -- http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
On Feb 27, 2010, at 6:29 AM, Subash wrote: On Sat, 27 Feb 2010 18:16:46 +0800 Sandy Harris sandyinch...@gmail.com wrote: On 2/27/10, Subash pdml.l...@gmail.com wrote: elsewhere all along, and i would just like to say that both al qaeda and saddam were creations of the US in their proxy wars against the former USSR and Iran respectively. one has to be really naive to play a politics of convenience and not expect it to boomerang badly sometime or the other... I agree with the basic notion that many of America's difficulties are brought on by their own policies. If you'd called Taliban a creation of the CIA and Pakistani intelligence, I'd have agreed with that, too. However, I think you are overstating the case; the examples you give seem wrong to me. and i think you are understating the case: both al qaeda and saddam wouldn't have become what they were/are but for US backing and material support...that's what i meant by 'US creations'... I think that's true, but the alternative may have been worse: a mega Iran and a strong Soviet presence in the middle east. There's no way to flip the switch and see what might have happened if Afghan and Iraq hadn't had U.S. support back in the day. Paul -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
[...] Unfortunately in England you no longer have a right to personal self defense, so only the Cops can legally protect you. That probably is coloring his perceptions. You do have the right to self defence here, but it's not really germane to this particular discussion. Bob -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
I think you're 100% wrong on this, Cotty. I refer you to Willcock vs Muckle: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarence_Henry_Willcock The PCSO in that film was an idiot, which is to be expected of PCSOs. The policewoman was bang out of order, abusing her authority. The photographer appears to know his rights rather more than most of us do, so presumably was deliberately pushing for this to happen, just as Willcock did in 1951, but somebody needs to put a stop to this type of abuse of authority. Hmm - there is nothing in the above para that I disagree with except the abuse of authority bit. If the police have the power to stop and search under a lawful act, how is that an abuse of authority? In any society you're going to get unscripted and spontaneous incidents on the ground and these probably happen in the dozens in the UK every day. Name me a few countries in the world where this sort of incident would have had a better outcome and I will consider moving there. -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche -- http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
[...] The policewoman was bang out of order, abusing her authority. The photographer appears to know his rights rather more than most of us do, so presumably was deliberately pushing for this to happen, just as Willcock did in 1951, but somebody needs to put a stop to this type of abuse of authority. Hmm - there is nothing in the above para that I disagree with except the abuse of authority bit. If the police have the power to stop and search under a lawful act, how is that an abuse of authority? [...] The stop and search powers are essentially the same as the sus law which was repealed back in the 80s because it was abused to such an extent that it was a major factor in the race riots of that time. The police abuse their authority whenever they stop someone without due cause for suspicion. Now, that's wide open to interpretation of course, but hiding a Leica behind your back or inside your jacket normal and legal for a certain type of photography, which is itself legal. People going about their business should not be subject to this sort of thing. The stop and search powers are themselves an abuse of power by the government and by the police, and have been ruled illegal by the European Court of Human Rights. http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/police/powers/stop-and-search/ http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8453878.stm -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
- Original Message - From: Cotty Subject: Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010 Hmm - there is nothing in the above para that I disagree with except the abuse of authority bit. If the police have the power to stop and search under a lawful act, how is that an abuse of authority? The abuse then goes one level higher to the people who made the laws. You have just justified the Holocaust. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
- Original Message - From: Cotty Subject: Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010 Simply that the idea that someone may not be photographing just for personal pleasure anymore - and in fact may be pursuing a line of illegality - eg recce of a building entrance, or snapping up little girls' skirts, means that the public are more aware of such activities, and rightly or wrongly are more likely to highlight innocent activity to the authorities. And who has planted the idea thar a person may be taking pictures for illegal purposes? I think with relation to pointina camera up a little girls skirt, the action would be pretty obvious, we had a guy here when I was a teenager that got popped for doing just that, and he was dealt with, without the hysteria that now surrounds SLR cameras but, inexplicably, no other type of device. But how many, pray tell, pictures have been used by terrorists to case out and plan an attack? Mark mentioned one. Do youi not think that one cell phone picture is justification for harassing one particular group of people? Especially a group that uses equipment that has no relationship to the type of equipment used in that one incident? If you want to have a whit of logic, ypou should be advocating the banning of cameras in cell phones. Someone seemingly 'acting suspiciously' (define that - ha!) in a crowd environment is more likely to attract attention in 2010 than only 20 or 30 years ago from people who are more aware and informed by the media. 20 or 30 years ago much fewer people were aware that there are people about who photograph children in compromising situations (for example) and even though the activity itself has probably been going on for ages, the awareness has only increased relatively recently. Similarly the photographing of bridges, buildings etc. I pass no judgement on it being right or wrong, just that that is what I see has happened. Tell you a story. I was filming in the centre of a city and we had finished and I was putting my kit away in the back of the land rover. As I drove away I noticed a strange woman looking at me and thought she was just staring because I was pulling out perilously close to her car or something. Next day I had a phone call from the police - was asked if I could meet them in a car park that I would be passing close to that day. Turns out that the woman had seen something she thought was a gun being holstered and put away in the back of my land rover! The police had done some digging based on my vehicle registration (license plate) and seeing what I did for a living, assumed a mistake in the lady. They were doing a 'soft stop' on me to check. I figured out what the lady had seen, I have a microphone and holder with wind-gag that look like this: http://tinyurl.com/notagun and before it goes in the case the wind gag (the furry part) often needs adjusting up tight (looks like a gun going into a holster). We all had a good laugh about it - and the copper said he had thought it would be something like this - had done the digging and decided a soft stop was in order rather than a 'hard stop' which would have involved armed police stopping me in an uncompromising manner - slightly scary. However, common sense prevailed (as did my website, which they looked at in assessing the situation) and we went away chuckling. My point is that the system worked. The system didn't work. Or more to the point, why does a guy who might have a gun get a soft stop and a guy with a camera gets tossed in a cell? Are you not seeing a disconnect in logic here? William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
[...] You have just justified the Holocaust. There goes the thread... -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
Tell you a story. I was filming in the centre of a city and we had finished and I was putting my kit away in the back of the land rover. As I drove away I noticed a strange woman looking at me and thought she was just staring because I was pulling out perilously close to her car or something. Next day I had a phone call from the police - was asked if I could meet them in a car park that I would be passing close to that day. Turns out that the woman had seen something she thought was a gun being holstered and put away in the back of my land rover! The police had done some digging based on my vehicle registration (license plate) and seeing what I did for a living, assumed a mistake in the lady. They were doing a 'soft stop' on me to check. I figured out what the lady had seen, I have a microphone and holder with wind-gag that look like this: http://tinyurl.com/notagun and before it goes in the case the wind gag (the furry part) often needs adjusting up tight (looks like a gun going into a holster). We all had a good laugh about it - and the copper said he had thought it would be something like this - had done the digging and decided a soft stop was in order rather than a 'hard stop' which would have involved armed police stopping me in an uncompromising manner - slightly scary. However, common sense prevailed (as did my website, which they looked at in assessing the situation) and we went away chuckling. My point is that the system worked. The woman might have seen a gun going into a holster, and on a different occasion it might have been a gun and not a mic. The police did their job well and no harm done. If it had been a hard stop instead, the outcome would be the same and aside from me being scared out of my wits, would have been just as satisfied. Seriously. That story doesn't really relate to the other stuff above because we have had a history of mainland terror in the last half of the last century but all the same, I still think public awareness in the UK has changed, and anyone out filming or photographing has to be more aware of this and in tune with the consequences. There's an enormous difference between your story about your furry friend, and the hassle that a lot of people get. In your case a woman reported her suspicions, the police followed up on the report, clarified that nothing untoward was happening and the story was done. That's how it should work. All too often it doesn't work that way. If she had reported me wandering around with a camera hidden in my jacket the police would have checked me out, quite reasonably. Having established that it was a camera and not a Colt 45, do you think they would allow me to go about my business? Would they buggery! They would try to move me on. I know this because it's happened before to me and to other amateur photographers. Now, I'm a middle class, middle-aged, mild-mannered white guy. How do you think they react to young Muslim lads who want to take a few pictures? Bob -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
- Original Message - From: Cotty I think your premise is wrong. The threat comes from smaller cameras and cell phones just as much as big cameras. It is the activity that attracts attention, not the size of the camera IMO. YMMV. Photographing in public places during public celebrations? Photographing while brown? Photographing architecture? Who decided that this sort of activity was suspicious. And if it is, why isn't it illegal? And why is it still legal to drive a lorry up beside a building? Hase no one ever heard of car bombs? Any one of the vehicles that you walk past could potentially blow up and kill you. It's been proven time and again that this can happen. Why is photographing a building downtown subject to police harassment but parking a car beside that same building not? William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
- Original Message - From: P. J. Alling Subject: Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010 Bill, I love you man, but you know, you can be a total dick, maybe it's coloring your perception. He was being a total dick, but that didn't make the cop right. Hey Peter, I love you too (that should be worthy of a Mark). But notwithstanding, what would your reaction have been in the same situation? Would you have tried to clarify whether you were under arrest? Would you have asked what justification was in place for the harassment? Would you have folded up like a used piece of toilet paper? I saw the video, at no time did I think the guy was disrespectful of the cop, he just demanded that the cop justify her actions. When did asking someone in authority justify whether what they are doing is lawful become being a dick? My own opinion is that if it is, we are already living in dictatorships, whether or not we get to play a game and elect a new dictator every 4 years or so. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
- Original Message - From: Cotty Subject: Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010 Bill, I'm sorry but this is verging on paranoia. Get a grip man! Paranoia doesn't mean that you are wrong, it can mean that you know you are right and are concerned. Playing the paranoia card is very akin to Godwin's whatever it is. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
- Original Message - From: paul stenquist Subject: Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest,February 2010 I think that's true, but the alternative may have been worse: a mega Iran and a strong Soviet presence in the middle east. There's no way to flip the switch and see what might have happened if Afghan and Iraq hadn't had U.S. support back in the day. Meddling with other peoples governments is usually not a very good thing to do. The USA seems to think it have a God given right to do it, and then justify it under the theory that if it's good for the USA it's good for everyone. It usually works out to be bad for everyone, just less bad for the USA in that less Americans get killed by a factor of a thousand or so. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
- Original Message - From: Cotty Subject: Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010 Nothing wrong with standing up for your rights at all - I do it regularly. The bloke in the Youtube video was being adversarial about it and the result was always going to be obvious (to me anyway). The other option was? Erase his card? Give up information that he legally wasn't bound to give up and have is details recorded for posterity on a police record listing him as a potential terrorist or paedophile? In order to disagree, one has to be somewhat adversarial. The very statement, I disagree puts one in an adversarial position. Do you not think the police were being rather adversarial? They were, after all, the ones acting illegally. Why is it OK for the police to break the law and be adeversarial but it isn't for a citizen to be within the law and be adversarial right back? Is it actually illegal in Britain to be a little abrupt with someone who is trampling on your rights? William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
On 2010-02-27 04:17 , Cotty wrote: If the police have the power to stop and search under a lawful act, how is that an abuse of authority? it is exactly in how they choose whom to stop search that authority can be abused -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
Photographing in public places during public celebrations? Photographing while brown? Photographing architecture? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BO8EpfyCG2Y -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
- Original Message - From: Bob W Subject: RE: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010 There's an enormous difference between your story about your furry friend, and the hassle that a lot of people get. In your case a woman reported her suspicions, the police followed up on the report, clarified that nothing untoward was happening and the story was done. That's how it should work. All too often it doesn't work that way. If she had reported me wandering around with a camera hidden in my jacket the police would have checked me out, quite reasonably. Having established that it was a camera and not a Colt 45, do you think they would allow me to go about my business? Would they buggery! They would try to move me on. I know this because it's happened before to me and to other amateur photographers. Now, I'm a middle class, middle-aged, mild-mannered white guy. How do you think they react to young Muslim lads who want to take a few pictures? Good point. Cotty seems to be trying to treat this as an isolated incident that has never happened before, rather than part of the pogrom that is ongoing. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
- Original Message - From: Bob W Subject: RE: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010 Photographing in public places during public celebrations? Photographing while brown? Photographing architecture? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BO8EpfyCG2Y Errrm, well, yes. The police do seem to have taken that one to heart, haven't they. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
On 2010-02-27 00:55 , William Robb wrote: The fact that in Britain a street photographer who has done no wrong can be arrested for antisocial positioning of a camera should scare the living shit out of anyone who leaves their home with a camera strap around their neck. or provoke us to do more to raise awareness of the issue ... not too long after 20010911 i went to see Utah Philips, now dead, a truly beautiful man who spent his life spouting sensible things that many would label crazy, antisocial or even traitorous; in one tangent he addressed the then-topical notion that George W. Bush propounded -- that citizens should spy for the government ,- e.g. delivery people, meter readers, plumbers, etc. should seek out and report any suspicious activity on behalf of the government so Utah gave us all buttons that said simply SPY, and encouraged us to wear them as badges of our presidentially-sanctioned status; i had mine for years on the strap of my Canon PowerShot G3; aside from the many chances i got to answer questions about the button, it was also useful a few times when i was challenged about photos i was taking -- i could say that the president had asked me to spy, so i had special authority to take pictures of this industrial lot (or whatever) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 10:23:55AM -0600, William Robb scripsit: Why is photographing a building downtown subject to police harassment but parking a car beside that same building not? Because pictures of police misconduct frequently have direct career consequences, *and* it's a deeply-absorbed movie-plot threat, while cars are normative symbols of security and prosperity, on the other. Stuff you hear repeated enough affects your thinking _even when you know it's wrong_. (Neurologists are having a fun time with this stuff of late. Makes it really hard to think of yourself as rational.) I wouldn't assume anybody in uniform knows the movie plot stuff is wrong; some do, many don't. The bit about pictures having political and career consequences *isn't* wrong, and SLRs are associated with photojournalists, whom the police generally do not like. -- Graydon -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
On 2010-02-27 04:40 , Cotty wrote: I figured out what the lady had seen, I have a microphone and holder with wind-gag that look like this: http://tinyurl.com/notagun and before it goes in the case the wind gag (the furry part) often needs adjusting up tight (looks like a gun going into a holster). so someone sees something that at a glance could be easily mistaken for a pistol being stashed away; that's a totally different scenario than a photographer openly taking pictures -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
On 2010-02-27 09:29 , William Robb wrote: I saw the video, at no time did I think the guy was disrespectful of the cop, he just demanded that the cop justify her actions. i felt the same way too -- he was polite, open and patient; interesting the difference in perceptions here -- some see such straightforward behavior as being a dick ... -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
On Feb 27, 2010, at 11:42 AM, William Robb wrote: - Original Message - From: paul stenquist Subject: Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest,February 2010 I think that's true, but the alternative may have been worse: a mega Iran and a strong Soviet presence in the middle east. There's no way to flip the switch and see what might have happened if Afghan and Iraq hadn't had U.S. support back in the day. Meddling with other peoples governments is usually not a very good thing to do. That's what Chamberlain said about Hitler. Didn't work. The USA seems to think it have a God given right to do it, and then justify it under the theory that if it's good for the USA it's good for everyone. It usually works out to be bad for everyone, just less bad for the USA in that less Americans get killed by a factor of a thousand or so. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
On 2010-02-27 06:13 , paul stenquist wrote: I think that's true, but the alternative may have been worse: a mega Iran and a strong Soviet presence in the middle east. There's no way to flip the switch and see what might have happened if Afghan and Iraq hadn't had U.S. support back in the day. so the alternative may also have been better -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
On Feb 27, 2010, at 12:28 PM, steve harley wrote: On 2010-02-27 06:13 , paul stenquist wrote: I think that's true, but the alternative may have been worse: a mega Iran and a strong Soviet presence in the middle east. There's no way to flip the switch and see what might have happened if Afghan and Iraq hadn't had U.S. support back in the day. so the alternative may also have been better Of course. But if no one ever intervened, we'd all be goose stepping today. You gotta go with your gut sometimes. Paul -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
Cotty wrote: On 26/2/10, Rob Studdert, discombobulated, unleashed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAUan2DXBsk Sneaky photographers... Sorry but that guy was being a total dick. he was adversarial by nature and got what was coming to him - because the police can. It's not the same as it was only a few years ago, we live in a different society - admittedly not an ideal society but whose fault is that... Net result, they have his details and he spent 8 hours detained, so where is his victory? If 99 innocent snappers get asked for their details (with nothing to hide) and the 100th turns out to be a nutter casing the joint, or a peado or whatever, then my tax money is working. I don't want to live in fear on the street as I might elsewhere in the world. I'd like to have seen him try it in 99% of other countries. His head would have been lumpier than school custard. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
On 2010-02-27 10:31 , P N Stenquist wrote: On Feb 27, 2010, at 12:28 PM, steve harley wrote: On 2010-02-27 06:13 , paul stenquist wrote: I think that's true, but the alternative may have been worse: a mega Iran and a strong Soviet presence in the middle east. There's no way to flip the switch and see what might have happened if Afghan and Iraq hadn't had U.S. support back in the day. so the alternative may also have been better Of course. But if no one ever intervened, we'd all be goose stepping today. You gotta go with your gut sometimes. now you seem sure the alternative would have been worse -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
On 27 February 2010 19:17, Cotty cotty...@mac.com wrote: On 26/2/10, Bob W, discombobulated, unleashed: I think you're 100% wrong on this, Cotty. I refer you to Willcock vs Muckle: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarence_Henry_Willcock The PCSO in that film was an idiot, which is to be expected of PCSOs. The policewoman was bang out of order, abusing her authority. The photographer appears to know his rights rather more than most of us do, so presumably was deliberately pushing for this to happen, just as Willcock did in 1951, but somebody needs to put a stop to this type of abuse of authority. Hmm - there is nothing in the above para that I disagree with except the abuse of authority bit. If the police have the power to stop and search under a lawful act, how is that an abuse of authority? In any society you're going to get unscripted and spontaneous incidents on the ground and these probably happen in the dozens in the UK every day. Name me a few countries in the world where this sort of incident would have had a better outcome and I will consider moving there. Fremantle, Australia. Today I spent 5 hours wandering the streets of Fremantle with a few photographer friends. We were very obvious, and we didn't get any particularly strange looks (we do silly looking things when we get together). The only time the cops approached us is after we talked a couple of pretty little things to pose on the median strip in the centre of the main street with cars driving past on either side. And they were more concerned for us getting hit by an idiot driver, than the fact. You should move here anyway for the scenery. I have a sore neck from constantly snapping if left right. I was spoilt for choice didn't know where to look. Gawd I love hot summer evenings. lecherous grin DS -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
On Feb 27, 2010, at 12:33 PM, steve harley wrote: On 2010-02-27 10:31 , P N Stenquist wrote: On Feb 27, 2010, at 12:28 PM, steve harley wrote: On 2010-02-27 06:13 , paul stenquist wrote: I think that's true, but the alternative may have been worse: a mega Iran and a strong Soviet presence in the middle east. There's no way to flip the switch and see what might have happened if Afghan and Iraq hadn't had U.S. support back in the day. so the alternative may also have been better Of course. But if no one ever intervened, we'd all be goose stepping today. You gotta go with your gut sometimes. now you seem sure the alternative would have been worse I'm sure that the alternative to intervention proved worse in the 1930s. Don't know what would have happened if things had been handled differently in recent situations. Just saying that those who decide these things sometimes have to trust their instincts, and frequently they have access to more information than the rest of us ever get to see. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
On 27/2/10, Bob W, discombobulated, unleashed: The stop and search powers are essentially the same as the sus law which was repealed back in the 80s because it was abused to such an extent that it was a major factor in the race riots of that time. The police abuse their authority whenever they stop someone without due cause for suspicion. Now, that's wide open to interpretation of course, but hiding a Leica behind your back or inside your jacket normal and legal for a certain type of photography, which is itself legal. People going about their business should not be subject to this sort of thing. The stop and search powers are themselves an abuse of power by the government and by the police, and have been ruled illegal by the European Court of Human Rights. http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/police/powers/stop-and-search/ http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8453878.stm Interesting links, thanks. I didn't know about the 'sus' law, or if I did, I'd forgotten about it. Came back from the USA in 76 and spent 10 years inebriated so that may have been why... The police abuse their authority whenever they stop someone without due cause for suspicion. Now, that's wide open to interpretation of course I think this seems to be the crux of the matter. I was thinking 'why doesn't it bother me??' The only thing I can think of is that for the past 23 years I have been subjected to intense 'processing' because of my work. Everywhere I go, I have to sign in and sign out, give details, fill in forms, give explanations sometimes ad- hoc on the moment, sometimes in advance. I have been searched and cleansed going in and out of prisons, police stations, military bases, RAF bases, naval bases, research establishments, everything - from down in a sewer to Buckingham palace and everywhere inbetween - you name it. I have dozens of passport pics ready to go as they need sending to every sort of establishment you can imagine for accreditation. I can remember a time when I didn't like being a number and refused to wear clip-on ID tags when filming on various premises - I used to clip them to the front of the camera. Stick-on tags I stuck onto the wooly mic cover. Now it doesn't bother me. In fact I found out that the more you jump through the hoops they put in front of you, the more you get what you want. Facing off against a jobsworth is so incredibly boring to me that I avoid it like the plague. I do the opposite - I make a friend with the jobsworth, and because of that I end up getting what I want or need with minimal fuss and effort, and usually with a cup of tea thrown in for good measure. As a point of principle I suppose I agree that stop and search is open to abuse and judging by the original youtube video, it is plain to see. However, I still maintain the bloke in question was being adversarial and that is only going to end up with one result. I suppose if I didn't do the job I do, and was (say) an IT guru who enjoyed photography in public places, and it happened to me, then there is a chance that I would have an adverse reaction as well. The problem is, I can't hypothesize about that because my view is toned by my history. All I can see is a bloke being adversarial and getting what was coming to him. A name and address and a friendly chat about camera clubs and he could have been on his way photographing again in minutes. What is so difficult about that? -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche -- http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
On 27/2/10, William Robb, discombobulated, unleashed: The abuse then goes one level higher to the people who made the laws. You have just justified the Holocaust. Cheers bill. I always did like smoky bacon crisps. -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche -- http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
On 28 February 2010 02:02, David Savage ozsav...@gmail.com wrote: On 27 February 2010 19:17, Cotty cotty...@mac.com wrote: On 26/2/10, Bob W, discombobulated, unleashed: I think you're 100% wrong on this, Cotty. I refer you to Willcock vs Muckle: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarence_Henry_Willcock The PCSO in that film was an idiot, which is to be expected of PCSOs. The policewoman was bang out of order, abusing her authority. The photographer appears to know his rights rather more than most of us do, so presumably was deliberately pushing for this to happen, just as Willcock did in 1951, but somebody needs to put a stop to this type of abuse of authority. Hmm - there is nothing in the above para that I disagree with except the abuse of authority bit. If the police have the power to stop and search under a lawful act, how is that an abuse of authority? In any society you're going to get unscripted and spontaneous incidents on the ground and these probably happen in the dozens in the UK every day. Name me a few countries in the world where this sort of incident would have had a better outcome and I will consider moving there. Fremantle, Australia. Today I spent 5 hours wandering the streets of Fremantle with a few photographer friends. We were very obvious, and we didn't get any particularly strange looks (we do silly looking things when we get together). The only time the cops approached us is after we talked a couple of pretty little things to pose on the median strip in the centre of the main street with cars driving past on either side. And they were more concerned for us getting hit by an idiot driver, than the fact. ...we were taking photos You should move here anyway for the scenery. I have a sore neck from constantly snapping if left right. I was spoilt for choice didn't know where to look. Gawd I love hot summer evenings. lecherous grin DS -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
On 27/2/10, William Robb, discombobulated, unleashed: - Original Message - From: Cotty Subject: Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010 Someone seemingly 'acting suspiciously' (define that - ha!) in a crowd environment is more likely to attract attention in 2010 than only 20 or 30 years ago from people who are more aware and informed by the media. 20 or 30 years ago much fewer people were aware that there are people about who photograph children in compromising situations (for example) and even though the activity itself has probably been going on for ages, the awareness has only increased relatively recently. Similarly the photographing of bridges, buildings etc. I pass no judgement on it being right or wrong, just that that is what I see has happened. Tell you a story. I was filming in the centre of a city and we had finished and I was putting my kit away in the back of the land rover. As I drove away I noticed a strange woman looking at me and thought she was just staring because I was pulling out perilously close to her car or something. Next day I had a phone call from the police - was asked if I could meet them in a car park that I would be passing close to that day. Turns out that the woman had seen something she thought was a gun being holstered and put away in the back of my land rover! The police had done some digging based on my vehicle registration (license plate) and seeing what I did for a living, assumed a mistake in the lady. They were doing a 'soft stop' on me to check. I figured out what the lady had seen, I have a microphone and holder with wind-gag that look like this: http://tinyurl.com/notagun and before it goes in the case the wind gag (the furry part) often needs adjusting up tight (looks like a gun going into a holster). We all had a good laugh about it - and the copper said he had thought it would be something like this - had done the digging and decided a soft stop was in order rather than a 'hard stop' which would have involved armed police stopping me in an uncompromising manner - slightly scary. However, common sense prevailed (as did my website, which they looked at in assessing the situation) and we went away chuckling. My point is that the system worked. The system didn't work. Or more to the point, why does a guy who might have a gun get a soft stop Because there was intelligence that suggested otherwise - research done before the stop - my website, my employer's identity etc. It would have been far easier to do the hard stop than waste half a day looking into it - and glad they did! I'm happy with that. and a guy with a camera gets tossed in a cell? The guy with the camera suddenly became the guy with the attitude, and that's why he was tossed in a cell. Are you not seeing a disconnect in logic here? Not at all. -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche -- http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
On 27/2/10, William Robb, discombobulated, unleashed: - Original Message - From: Cotty I think your premise is wrong. The threat comes from smaller cameras and cell phones just as much as big cameras. It is the activity that attracts attention, not the size of the camera IMO. YMMV. Photographing in public places during public celebrations? If I were a policeman and saw someone I thought was acting suspiciously (definition of 'suspiciously' - ack, your guess is as good as mine) I would certainly monitor that person. If they had a cellphone or a larger camera it wouldn't matter to me. I'm a police officer so am slightly let down by my ignorance - I will watch the larger camera... Photographing while brown? Race? Photographing architecture? Anything anywhere - it's a different world now :-))) Who decided that this sort of activity was suspicious. And if it is, why isn't it illegal? The activity isn't suspicious - the manner in which it is carried out could possibly be. Trying to hide the fact one has a camera would come under that. Think like a policeman! And why is it still legal to drive a lorry up beside a building? Hase no one ever heard of car bombs? Any one of the vehicles that you walk past could potentially blow up and kill you. It's been proven time and again that this can happen. Why is photographing a building downtown subject to police harassment but parking a car beside that same building not? There are parts of London where this is the case - heavy CCTV, patrols, no parking. Financial district etc. -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche -- http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
On 28 February 2010 02:15, Cotty cotty...@mac.com wrote: On 27/2/10, William Robb, discombobulated, unleashed: and a guy with a camera gets tossed in a cell? The guy with the camera suddenly became the guy with the attitude, and that's why he was tossed in a cell. WRT the video... While I find the reason for the initial police approach disconcerting, the subject did himself no favours with his somewhat belligerent attitude. There is a right a wrong way to deal with the boys girls in blue. He picked the wrong way, and made an unpleasant situation much worse. DS -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
On 27/2/10, William Robb, discombobulated, unleashed: Paranoia doesn't mean that you are wrong, it can mean that you know you are right and are concerned. Hall of fame. mark! -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche -- http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
On 27/2/10, Bob W, discombobulated, unleashed: There's an enormous difference between your story about your furry friend, and the hassle that a lot of people get. In your case a woman reported her suspicions, the police followed up on the report, clarified that nothing untoward was happening and the story was done. That's how it should work. All too often it doesn't work that way. If she had reported me wandering around with a camera hidden in my jacket the police would have checked me out, quite reasonably. Having established that it was a camera and not a Colt 45, do you think they would allow me to go about my business? Would they buggery! They would try to move me on. I know this because it's happened before to me and to other amateur photographers. Now, I'm a middle class, middle-aged, mild-mannered white guy. How do you think they react to young Muslim lads who want to take a few pictures? To quote another contributor: you've just justified the holocaust. -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche -- http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 12:25:58PM -0500, P N Stenquist wrote: On Feb 27, 2010, at 11:42 AM, William Robb wrote: - Original Message - From: paul stenquist Subject: Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest,February 2010 I think that's true, but the alternative may have been worse: a mega Iran and a strong Soviet presence in the middle east. There's no way to flip the switch and see what might have happened if Afghan and Iraq hadn't had U.S. support back in the day. Meddling with other peoples governments is usually not a very good thing to do. That's what Chamberlain said about Hitler. Didn't work. I call Godwin. Now can we drop this thread, too? -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
While we're on the subject, here's another one: http://tinyurl.com/fanciedfishnchips Video as well, half-way down on the left. This is very near me. -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche -- http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
On 27/2/10, steve harley, discombobulated, unleashed: it is exactly in how they choose whom to stop search that authority can be abused Agreed - note your own words: 'can be'. -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche -- http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
On 27/2/10, steve harley, discombobulated, unleashed: so someone sees something that at a glance could be easily mistaken for a pistol being stashed away; that's a totally different scenario than a photographer openly taking pictures I didn't say they were the same thing. I said, tell you a story. My point was that the general public are not only more aware of what's going on around them, but are not afraid to report it. -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche -- http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
On 27/2/10, steve harley, discombobulated, unleashed: i felt the same way too -- he was polite, open and patient; interesting the difference in perceptions here -- some see such straightforward behavior as being a dick ... He was being a robot dick. He wasn't interested in having a conversation, he was more interested in repeating his mantra which was only going to get on there tits. -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche -- http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
On 28/2/10, David Savage, discombobulated, unleashed: Fremantle, Australia. Today I spent 5 hours wandering the streets of Fremantle with a few photographer friends. We were very obvious, and we didn't get any particularly strange looks (we do silly looking things when we get together). The only time the cops approached us is after we talked a couple of pretty little things to pose on the median strip in the centre of the main street with cars driving past on either side. And they were more concerned for us getting hit by an idiot driver, than the fact. You should move here anyway for the scenery. I have a sore neck from constantly snapping if left right. I was spoilt for choice didn't know where to look. Gawd I love hot summer evenings. lecherous grin I would consider Australia. Someone else was telling me they would go back in an instant. Oh yeah my neighbour. Apparently I started the holocaust or something, do you think they would still let me in? -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche -- http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
On 28 February 2010 02:40, Cotty cotty...@mac.com wrote: On 28/2/10, David Savage, discombobulated, unleashed: Fremantle, Australia. Today I spent 5 hours wandering the streets of Fremantle with a few photographer friends. We were very obvious, and we didn't get any particularly strange looks (we do silly looking things when we get together). The only time the cops approached us is after we talked a couple of pretty little things to pose on the median strip in the centre of the main street with cars driving past on either side. And they were more concerned for us getting hit by an idiot driver, than the fact. You should move here anyway for the scenery. I have a sore neck from constantly snapping if left right. I was spoilt for choice didn't know where to look. Gawd I love hot summer evenings. lecherous grin I would consider Australia. Someone else was telling me they would go back in an instant. Oh yeah my neighbour. Apparently I started the holocaust or something, do you think they would still let me in? Sure. Bring beer your sense of humour. Most of the rest of the world takes itself way too seriously. DS -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
Bill, Aren't we the Great Satin or what down here in the USA. I don't have any trouble taking pictures here. How about you in Canada? Regards, Bob S. On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 10:42 AM, William Robb war...@gmail.com wrote: - Original Message - From: paul stenquist Subject: Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest,February 2010 I think that's true, but the alternative may have been worse: a mega Iran and a strong Soviet presence in the middle east. There's no way to flip the switch and see what might have happened if Afghan and Iraq hadn't had U.S. support back in the day. Meddling with other peoples governments is usually not a very good thing to do. The USA seems to think it have a God given right to do it, and then justify it under the theory that if it's good for the USA it's good for everyone. It usually works out to be bad for everyone, just less bad for the USA in that less Americans get killed by a factor of a thousand or so. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
Kenneth Waller http://www.tinyurl.com/272u2f - Original Message - From: William Robb war...@gmail.com Subject: Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010 - Original Message - From: Ken Waller Subject: Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010 My advice is to stock up on collectible spoons while you can... Or move to Canada. A friend of mine here has been hassled twice by the police for photographing while being a paraplegic. It'a quite appalling actually. The first time, the police wanted him to get out of his vehicle, so he asked the officer if he would mind getting him his wheelchair from the back of the van. The cop went away. The next time, the police came to his door and questioned him fairly severely. He voluntarily showed them the contents of his computer, and they went away. Stupidity is not confined to a specific vocation. This was caused by people getting their shorts in a knot because they saw a large camera in public. The train has left the atation here as well. The trend is to take big cameras off the street, not all cameras. Anyone who says the world changed after 9/11 should be prepared to justify exactly what sort of threat the big camera represents that a cell phone camera or PS camera doesnt. Why do we still allow cars to drive through the downtowns of our cities? Any one of them could be a car bomber looking for a nice office tower to blow up. Why is that not looked upon as a threat, but the hobby photographer with an SLR is? I submit, most respectfully that it is a propoganda campaign as evil as any that we've ever seen, and anyone that buys into it is just not thinking very hard. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
While we're on the subject, here's another one: http://tinyurl.com/fanciedfishnchips Video as well, half-way down on the left. This is very near me. That's a great story - a perfect example of how warped their priorities have become. They're called out because a gang of youths has thrown a bottle at a woman. They move the youths on, apparently without arresting any of them for affray, but they stop search some harmless git with a camera under anti-terrorism legislation. What a bunch of plonkers. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
The system didn't work. Or more to the point, why does a guy who might have a gun get a soft stop Because there was intelligence that suggested otherwise - research done before the stop - my website, my employer's identity etc. It would have been far easier to do the hard stop than waste half a day looking into it - and glad they did! I'm happy with that. Come on - that's not intelligence, that's stupidity. Why are they wasting half a day on the computer when someone's reported a possible firearm? They should have had you cuffed over the back of that Landy in seconds with a dozen pump-action shotguns pointing at your head - what if you'd been about to do a Michael Ryan? -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010
On 28 February 2010 03:00, Bob W p...@web-options.com wrote: what if you'd been about to do a Michael Ryan? As long as both parties are consenting adults, who are we to care or judge? -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
