Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as a motor fuel
My apologies to all, especially to John Jaser. While mulling over a post on Methane As A Renewable, I mistakenly posted my thoughts on methane being a no-brainer on the wrong thread. Irony, no? Me scatter-braining while being critical of no-braining. As to methanol as a motor fuel: Relatively safe? Yes, relative to other motor fuels Easily transported? Yes, in the tanks of vehicles. There's a good deal of debate here in NY about transport of crude oil in barges on the Hudson River, by rail, and in tanker trucks. Methanol, while toxic to humans, does not pose the same environmental threat that crude oil does. Always a concern w. transport. Homebrewing: ??? Problem: material compatibility Methanol, like other renewables, is probably best produced locally. The methanol I purchase to make biodiesel costs $160-$200 (US) per 55 gal. drum. Much of the cost reflects costs associated with transport. The barrel that cost me $200 sold for $110 in Buffalo, NY where it arrived by rail. I was told that it sold for $80-90 on the Gulf coast where it arrived by tanker. Not only is there a financial cost associated w. transport, but a great amount of fuel wasted delivering fuel. Sorry, just a commercial for local, small-scale energy production. Preaching to the choir. Tom On Wed, 26 Nov 2014 17:33:57 -0500 Tom ontheh...@fairpoint.net wrote: Aaah, methane is intriguing. Biogas is a metabolic product of one of the most ancient life forms, the methanocreatrices. Anaerobic chemoautotrophic bacteria so different from others that many would assign them to their own kingdom. As to methane being easily transported consider where propane and natural gas can be compressed to liquids, greatly increasing energy density, methane resists liquefaction, requiring tremendous pressure. This seems to be the fly in the ointment. Unliquefied, a tankful of methane doesn't go far. Methane has value as a renewable fuel. It is captured and used at waste treatment plants to generate electricity. Methane is currently being captured at landfills and used to generate electricity. I know of a dairy farm that harvests methane from the manure the cows produce. They use the methane to generate electricity. The heat from the generators heats the water used to sanitize the milking area. They don't use the methane in their cars or farm machinery however. Relatively safe.Hmmm Methane is a potent greenhouse gas. Ocean burps from vast storehouses of methyl hydrates/clathrates have been credited with contributing significantly to the end of the last ice age. The release of methane from thawing peat bogs is a part of the cascade of events that is accelerating global warming. Gasoline was once considered a waste product of oil refining, dumped into rivers. When it was pointed out that it could replace ethanol as fuel for internal combustion engines the waste became valuable. Imagine what might happen if methane gas presented the same financial opportunities by its use as vehicle fuel a renewable fuel. Do we dare the oil giants to tap the vast stores of methane currently trapped safely under the ocean? It's already being proposed. They can do it safely, right? Have you seen the data about leakage from pipelines compressed gases seem to find their way out. Not so good in the case of methane. Capturing methane at its source and using it close to where it's produced to generate electricity seems appropriate. Sorry to carry on, but you did say methane was intriguing. Best, Tom -Original Message- From: John Jaser j...@jaser.net Sent: 11/26/2014 2:50 PM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as a motor fuel Hi Tom: Sorry should have added the context. Intriguing as perhaps a better common denominator than hydrogen itself. e.g. can be easily transported; can be made from biogas; can power a fuel cell directly or indirectly; relatively safe From: Tom Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2014 2:49 PM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org What is it about the number of hydrogens per molecule that intrigues you? Methane: CH4, Methanol: CH3OH both have 4 H's per molecule, as would Methanoic Acid. Ethane: C2H6, Ethanol: C2H5OH each have 6 H's per molecule. Is there something about the number 4 itself, or is it the number of H's per Carbon atom? Methane: 4:1 vs Ethane: 3:1 with a decreasing ratio as we increase the size of the carbon chain. Just wondering, Tom -Original Message- From: John Jaser j...@jaser.net Sent: 11/26/2014 12:58 PM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as a motor fuel
That interview with Dr. Olah was a good read. Thanks Darryl. From: Darryl McMahon Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2014 1:24 PM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org Has anyone read Beyond Oil and Gas: The Methanol Economy? http://www.technologyreview.com/news/405436/the-methanol-economy/ http://www.amazon.ca/Beyond-Oil-Gas-Methanol-Economy/dp/3527324224 If so, any thoughts about the book or subject matter? Darryl On 27/11/2014 12:55 PM, John Jaser wrote: Tom: Thanks for the abundant knowledge in your post. I am most certainly not a chemist, but have always considered liquid methanol a very interesting candidate for energy storage. Since it can be made from a variety of renewable and non renewable means (wood, coal, biogas, etc) it seems like an easier economic target to produce than pure hydrogen. Transprots and pumps well, compared to what would be needed for compressed hydrogen gas. What to do with it once you make it? The indirect methanol fuel cell, if developed further looks promising. Thanks again for the conversation! From: Tom Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2014 5:33 PM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org Aaah, methane is intriguing. Biogas is a metabolic product of one of the most ancient life forms, the methanocreatrices. Anaerobic chemoautotrophic bacteria so different from others that many would assign them to their own kingdom. As to methane being easily transported consider where propane and natural gas can be compressed to liquids, greatly increasing energy density, methane resists liquefaction, requiring tremendous pressure. This seems to be the fly in the ointment. Unliquefied, a tankful of methane doesn't go far. Methane has value as a renewable fuel. It is captured and used at waste treatment plants to generate electricity. Methane is currently being captured at landfills and used to generate electricity. I know of a dairy farm that harvests methane from the manure the cows produce. They use the methane to generate electricity. The heat from the generators heats the water used to sanitize the milking area. They don't use the methane in their cars or farm machinery however. Relatively safe.Hmmm Methane is a potent greenhouse gas. Ocean burps from vast storehouses of methyl hydrates/clathrates have been credited with contributing significantly to the end of the last ice age. The release of methane from thawing peat bogs is a part of the cascade of events that is accelerating global warming. Gasoline was once considered a waste product of oil refining, dumped into rivers. When it was pointed out that it could replace ethanol as fuel for internal combustion engines the waste became valuable. Imagine what might happen if methane gas presented the same financial opportunities by its use as vehicle fuel a renewable fuel. Do we dare the oil giants to tap the vast stores of methane currently trapped safely under the ocean? It's already being proposed. They can do it safely, right? Have you seen the data about leakage from pipelines compressed gases seem to find their way out. Not so good in the case of methane. Capturing methane at its source and using it close to where it's produced to generate electricity seems appropriate. Sorry to carry on, but you did say methane was intriguing. Best, Tom ___ Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel ___ Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as a motor fuel
Have you looked on drag racing forums about methanol for race fuel? And they discuss the effects on the motor and modifications required. Michele On Nov 27, 2014, at 12:24 PM, Darryl McMahon dar...@econogics.com wrote: Has anyone read Beyond Oil and Gas: The Methanol Economy? http://www.technologyreview.com/news/405436/the-methanol-economy/ http://www.amazon.ca/Beyond-Oil-Gas-Methanol-Economy/dp/3527324224 If so, any thoughts about the book or subject matter? Darryl On 27/11/2014 12:55 PM, John Jaser wrote: Tom: Thanks for the abundant knowledge in your post. I am most certainly not a chemist, but have always considered liquid methanol a very interesting candidate for energy storage. Since it can be made from a variety of renewable and non renewable means (wood, coal, biogas, etc) it seems like an easier economic target to produce than pure hydrogen. Transprots and pumps well, compared to what would be needed for compressed hydrogen gas. What to do with it once you make it? The indirect methanol fuel cell, if developed further looks promising. Thanks again for the conversation! From: Tom Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2014 5:33 PM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org Aaah, methane is intriguing. Biogas is a metabolic product of one of the most ancient life forms, the methanocreatrices. Anaerobic chemoautotrophic bacteria so different from others that many would assign them to their own kingdom. As to methane being easily transported consider where propane and natural gas can be compressed to liquids, greatly increasing energy density, methane resists liquefaction, requiring tremendous pressure. This seems to be the fly in the ointment. Unliquefied, a tankful of methane doesn't go far. Methane has value as a renewable fuel. It is captured and used at waste treatment plants to generate electricity. Methane is currently being captured at landfills and used to generate electricity. I know of a dairy farm that harvests methane from the manure the cows produce. They use the methane to generate electricity. The heat from the generators heats the water used to sanitize the milking area. They don't use the methane in their cars or farm machinery however. Relatively safe.Hmmm Methane is a potent greenhouse gas. Ocean burps from vast storehouses of methyl hydrates/clathrates have been credited with contributing significantly to the end of the last ice age. The release of methane from thawing peat bogs is a part of the cascade of events that is accelerating global warming. Gasoline was once considered a waste product of oil refining, dumped into rivers. When it was pointed out that it could replace ethanol as fuel for internal combustion engines the waste became valuable. Imagine what might happen if methane gas presented the same financial opportunities by its use as vehicle fuel a renewable fuel. Do we dare the oil giants to tap the vast stores of methane currently trapped safely under the ocean? It's already being proposed. They can do it safely, right? Have you seen the data about leakage from pipelines compressed gases seem to find their way out. Not so good in the case of methane. Capturing methane at its source and using it close to where it's produced to generate electricity seems appropriate. Sorry to carry on, but you did say methane was intriguing. Best, Tom ___ Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel ___ Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as a motor fuel
I have not yet started in on racing forums, as I understand they use 100% methanol as fuel, and my interest is using a mix of methanol (up to 50% possibly) in order to avoid making engine modifications while not sacrificing engine life. The idea of the methanol energy economy is way beyond my current practical interest, but definitely of academic interest. Darryl On 28/11/2014 1:08 PM, Michele Stephenson wrote: Have you looked on drag racing forums about methanol for race fuel? And they discuss the effects on the motor and modifications required. Michele On Nov 27, 2014, at 12:24 PM, Darryl McMahon dar...@econogics.com wrote: Has anyone read Beyond Oil and Gas: The Methanol Economy? http://www.technologyreview.com/news/405436/the-methanol-economy/ http://www.amazon.ca/Beyond-Oil-Gas-Methanol-Economy/dp/3527324224 If so, any thoughts about the book or subject matter? Darryl On 27/11/2014 12:55 PM, John Jaser wrote: Tom: Thanks for the abundant knowledge in your post. I am most certainly not a chemist, but have always considered liquid methanol a very interesting candidate for energy storage. Since it can be made from a variety of renewable and non renewable means (wood, coal, biogas, etc) it seems like an easier economic target to produce than pure hydrogen. Transprots and pumps well, compared to what would be needed for compressed hydrogen gas. What to do with it once you make it? The indirect methanol fuel cell, if developed further looks promising. Thanks again for the conversation! From: Tom Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2014 5:33 PM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org Aaah, methane is intriguing. Biogas is a metabolic product of one of the most ancient life forms, the methanocreatrices. Anaerobic chemoautotrophic bacteria so different from others that many would assign them to their own kingdom. As to methane being easily transported consider where propane and natural gas can be compressed to liquids, greatly increasing energy density, methane resists liquefaction, requiring tremendous pressure. This seems to be the fly in the ointment. Unliquefied, a tankful of methane doesn't go far. Methane has value as a renewable fuel. It is captured and used at waste treatment plants to generate electricity. Methane is currently being captured at landfills and used to generate electricity. I know of a dairy farm that harvests methane from the manure the cows produce. They use the methane to generate electricity. The heat from the generators heats the water used to sanitize the milking area. They don't use the methane in their cars or farm machinery however. Relatively safe.Hmmm Methane is a potent greenhouse gas. Ocean burps from vast storehouses of methyl hydrates/clathrates have been credited with contributing significantly to the end of the last ice age. The release of methane from thawing peat bogs is a part of the cascade of events that is accelerating global warming. Gasoline was once considered a waste product of oil refining, dumped into rivers. When it was pointed out that it could replace ethanol as fuel for internal combustion engines the waste became valuable. Imagine what might happen if methane gas presented the same financial opportunities by its use as vehicle fuel a renewable fuel. Do we dare the oil giants to tap the vast stores of methane currently trapped safely under the ocean? It's already being proposed. They can do it safely, right? Have you seen the data about leakage from pipelines compressed gases seem to find their way out. Not so good in the case of methane. Capturing methane at its source and using it close to where it's produced to generate electricity seems appropriate. Sorry to carry on, but you did say methane was intriguing. Best, Tom ___ Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as a motor fuel
Tom: Thanks for the abundant knowledge in your post. I am most certainly not a chemist, but have always considered liquid methanol a very interesting candidate for energy storage. Since it can be made from a variety of renewable and non renewable means (wood, coal, biogas, etc) it seems like an easier economic target to produce than pure hydrogen. Transprots and pumps well, compared to what would be needed for compressed hydrogen gas. What to do with it once you make it? The indirect methanol fuel cell, if developed further looks promising. Thanks again for the conversation! From: Tom Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2014 5:33 PM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org Aaah, methane is intriguing. Biogas is a metabolic product of one of the most ancient life forms, the methanocreatrices. Anaerobic chemoautotrophic bacteria so different from others that many would assign them to their own kingdom. As to methane being easily transported consider where propane and natural gas can be compressed to liquids, greatly increasing energy density, methane resists liquefaction, requiring tremendous pressure. This seems to be the fly in the ointment. Unliquefied, a tankful of methane doesn't go far. Methane has value as a renewable fuel. It is captured and used at waste treatment plants to generate electricity. Methane is currently being captured at landfills and used to generate electricity. I know of a dairy farm that harvests methane from the manure the cows produce. They use the methane to generate electricity. The heat from the generators heats the water used to sanitize the milking area. They don't use the methane in their cars or farm machinery however. Relatively safe.Hmmm Methane is a potent greenhouse gas. Ocean burps from vast storehouses of methyl hydrates/clathrates have been credited with contributing significantly to the end of the last ice age. The release of methane from thawing peat bogs is a part of the cascade of events that is accelerating global warming. Gasoline was once considered a waste product of oil refining, dumped into rivers. When it was pointed out that it could replace ethanol as fuel for internal combustion engines the waste became valuable. Imagine what might happen if methane gas presented the same financial opportunities by its use as vehicle fuel a renewable fuel. Do we dare the oil giants to tap the vast stores of methane currently trapped safely under the ocean? It's already being proposed. They can do it safely, right? Have you seen the data about leakage from pipelines compressed gases seem to find their way out. Not so good in the case of methane. Capturing methane at its source and using it close to where it's produced to generate electricity seems appropriate. Sorry to carry on, but you did say methane was intriguing. Best, Tom -Original Message- From: John Jaser j...@jaser.net Sent: 11/26/2014 2:50 PM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as a motor fuel Hi Tom: Sorry should have added the context. Intriguing as perhaps a better common denominator than hydrogen itself. e.g. can be easily transported; can be made from biogas; can power a fuel cell directly or indirectly; relatively safe From: Tom Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2014 2:49 PM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org What is it about the number of hydrogens per molecule that intrigues you? Methane: CH4, Methanol: CH3OH both have 4 H's per molecule, as would Methanoic Acid. Ethane: C2H6, Ethanol: C2H5OH each have 6 H's per molecule. Is there something about the number 4 itself, or is it the number of H's per Carbon atom? Methane: 4:1 vs Ethane: 3:1 with a decreasing ratio as we increase the size of the carbon chain. Just wondering, Tom -Original Message- From: John Jaser j...@jaser.net Sent: 11/26/2014 12:58 PM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as a motor fuel Methanol is super intriguing… the amount of hydrogen per molecule. From: Darryl McMahon Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2014 12:06 PM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org Jan, thanks for the quick response. Not scaring me off. I have read something which suggests adding methanol to gasoline has some potentially beneficial combustion effects. Lower energy content was known and accepted. I generally use synthetic lubricating oils anyway - better lube properties, longer life. Don't know what the implications of methanol use are on synthetic lubrication oils. So, still curious. Not a front-burner issue for me. So 3 lines of research at this point. 1) what are enviro pros/cons of using home-brew wood alcohol
[Biofuel] Methanol as a motor fuel
In Canada, it is illegal to produce ethanol for fuel without a federal permit, and these are effectively never granted to a home brewer. I have been pondering the idea of using methanol (wood alcohol) as an alternative to ethanol fuel, but have not taken the time to research it. Has somebody else already done this, and can save me the effort? My recollection is it is possible to use methanol as a motor fuel, which is supported by this document. https://web.anl.gov/PCS/acsfuel/preprint%20archive/Files/20_2_PHILADELPHIA_04-75_0059.pdf I know that during the war years (1939 to 1945), a number of people ran engines on wood gas (the images of large gas bladders on vehicle roof racks come easily to mind). I do have access to wood waste and fruit waste material, but working space is at a premium. Also, the processes I see seem to be based on having process heat available (e.g., for pyrolysis). However, I don't think I need a lot - our third vehicle travels about 400 km a month, and I figure the methanol will only displace about 20 litres a month of gasoline at a maximum, probably less. I can buy methanol commercially, but in small quantities (retail), it is more expensive than gasoline. However, could be an option for experimentation in the vehicle before committing to home production. I also have not yet investigated regulatory and safety issues, but expect the latter to be manageable. Thoughts, experience, pointers to relevant experience or information? ___ Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as a motor fuel
Darryl, methanol is already used as motor fuel in Indy Car and Speedway. Metanol is similar to ethanol, but more. It means that of all properties that ethanol has, methanol has more of them. Methanol is slightly more corrosive than water and has an oxygene content of 50% by weight. The flash point is slightly lower than for ethanol. Incomplete combustion of methanol generates formaldehyde and other toxic substances. It is also known that methanol can cause wear in excess in connection with the motor oil , unless the oil is specially suited for methanol. Your vehicle will consume double the amount of fuel compared to gasoline and cold starts will be very difficult unless you add some gasoline to the metanol fuel. However, you can expect a very high fuel effiency if your motor is fully adapted to the methanol fuel. That is the brief version, I also have designed a method for purification of sulfate methanol (derived from paper pulping) but that technology is currently classfied due to pending patent. I hope this information did not scar you off, but increased your curiosity. Best Jan Warnqvisr -Ursprungligt meddelande- From: Darryl McMahon Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2014 4:03 PM To: Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol as a motor fuel In Canada, it is illegal to produce ethanol for fuel without a federal permit, and these are effectively never granted to a home brewer. I have been pondering the idea of using methanol (wood alcohol) as an alternative to ethanol fuel, but have not taken the time to research it. Has somebody else already done this, and can save me the effort? My recollection is it is possible to use methanol as a motor fuel, which is supported by this document. https://web.anl.gov/PCS/acsfuel/preprint%20archive/Files/20_2_PHILADELPHIA_04-75_0059.pdf I know that during the war years (1939 to 1945), a number of people ran engines on wood gas (the images of large gas bladders on vehicle roof racks come easily to mind). I do have access to wood waste and fruit waste material, but working space is at a premium. Also, the processes I see seem to be based on having process heat available (e.g., for pyrolysis). However, I don't think I need a lot - our third vehicle travels about 400 km a month, and I figure the methanol will only displace about 20 litres a month of gasoline at a maximum, probably less. I can buy methanol commercially, but in small quantities (retail), it is more expensive than gasoline. However, could be an option for experimentation in the vehicle before committing to home production. I also have not yet investigated regulatory and safety issues, but expect the latter to be manageable. Thoughts, experience, pointers to relevant experience or information? ___ Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel ___ Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as a motor fuel
Jan, thanks for the quick response. Not scaring me off. I have read something which suggests adding methanol to gasoline has some potentially beneficial combustion effects. Lower energy content was known and accepted. I generally use synthetic lubricating oils anyway - better lube properties, longer life. Don't know what the implications of methanol use are on synthetic lubrication oils. So, still curious. Not a front-burner issue for me. So 3 lines of research at this point. 1) what are enviro pros/cons of using home-brew wood alcohol (methanol) as gasoline substitute - mixed fuel 2) what are the consequences for engine life, performance? Engine will not be optimized to methanol, but will be using a methanol-gasoline blend. I understand the fuel computer on the 2002 Astro van will adjust automatically to up to 50% ethanol blend (but have found nothing so far regarding methanol blend). I am assuming the fuel computer is working on oxygen and fuel energy ratios, and won't distinguish between ethanol and methanol. 3) what does the home-brew operation entail? (if it is not based on a sustainable biomass feedstock, then I'm not interested in pursuing it) Many other projects have higher priority for me at this point. I'll keep researching as time permits. Darryl On 26/11/2014 10:27 AM, Jan Warnqvist wrote: Darryl, methanol is already used as motor fuel in Indy Car and Speedway. Metanol is similar to ethanol, but more. It means that of all properties that ethanol has, methanol has more of them. Methanol is slightly more corrosive than water and has an oxygene content of 50% by weight. The flash point is slightly lower than for ethanol. Incomplete combustion of methanol generates formaldehyde and other toxic substances. It is also known that methanol can cause wear in excess in connection with the motor oil , unless the oil is specially suited for methanol. Your vehicle will consume double the amount of fuel compared to gasoline and cold starts will be very difficult unless you add some gasoline to the metanol fuel. However, you can expect a very high fuel effiency if your motor is fully adapted to the methanol fuel. That is the brief version, I also have designed a method for purification of sulfate methanol (derived from paper pulping) but that technology is currently classfied due to pending patent. I hope this information did not scar you off, but increased your curiosity. Best Jan Warnqvisr -Ursprungligt meddelande- From: Darryl McMahon Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2014 4:03 PM To: Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol as a motor fuel In Canada, it is illegal to produce ethanol for fuel without a federal permit, and these are effectively never granted to a home brewer. I have been pondering the idea of using methanol (wood alcohol) as an alternative to ethanol fuel, but have not taken the time to research it. Has somebody else already done this, and can save me the effort? My recollection is it is possible to use methanol as a motor fuel, which is supported by this document. https://web.anl.gov/PCS/acsfuel/preprint%20archive/Files/20_2_PHILADELPHIA_04-75_0059.pdf I know that during the war years (1939 to 1945), a number of people ran engines on wood gas (the images of large gas bladders on vehicle roof racks come easily to mind). I do have access to wood waste and fruit waste material, but working space is at a premium. Also, the processes I see seem to be based on having process heat available (e.g., for pyrolysis). However, I don't think I need a lot - our third vehicle travels about 400 km a month, and I figure the methanol will only displace about 20 litres a month of gasoline at a maximum, probably less. I can buy methanol commercially, but in small quantities (retail), it is more expensive than gasoline. However, could be an option for experimentation in the vehicle before committing to home production. I also have not yet investigated regulatory and safety issues, but expect the latter to be manageable. Thoughts, experience, pointers to relevant experience or information? ___ Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel ___ Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel -- Darryl McMahon Project Manager, Common Assessment and Referral for Enhanced Support Services (CARESS) ___ Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as a motor fuel
Methanol is super intriguing… the amount of hydrogen per molecule. From: Darryl McMahon Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2014 12:06 PM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org Jan, thanks for the quick response. Not scaring me off. I have read something which suggests adding methanol to gasoline has some potentially beneficial combustion effects. Lower energy content was known and accepted. I generally use synthetic lubricating oils anyway - better lube properties, longer life. Don't know what the implications of methanol use are on synthetic lubrication oils. So, still curious. Not a front-burner issue for me. So 3 lines of research at this point. 1) what are enviro pros/cons of using home-brew wood alcohol (methanol) as gasoline substitute - mixed fuel 2) what are the consequences for engine life, performance? Engine will not be optimized to methanol, but will be using a methanol-gasoline blend. I understand the fuel computer on the 2002 Astro van will adjust automatically to up to 50% ethanol blend (but have found nothing so far regarding methanol blend). I am assuming the fuel computer is working on oxygen and fuel energy ratios, and won't distinguish between ethanol and methanol. 3) what does the home-brew operation entail? (if it is not based on a sustainable biomass feedstock, then I'm not interested in pursuing it) Many other projects have higher priority for me at this point. I'll keep researching as time permits. Darryl On 26/11/2014 10:27 AM, Jan Warnqvist wrote: Darryl, methanol is already used as motor fuel in Indy Car and Speedway. Metanol is similar to ethanol, but more. It means that of all properties that ethanol has, methanol has more of them. Methanol is slightly more corrosive than water and has an oxygene content of 50% by weight. The flash point is slightly lower than for ethanol. Incomplete combustion of methanol generates formaldehyde and other toxic substances. It is also known that methanol can cause wear in excess in connection with the motor oil , unless the oil is specially suited for methanol. Your vehicle will consume double the amount of fuel compared to gasoline and cold starts will be very difficult unless you add some gasoline to the metanol fuel. However, you can expect a very high fuel effiency if your motor is fully adapted to the methanol fuel. That is the brief version, I also have designed a method for purification of sulfate methanol (derived from paper pulping) but that technology is currently classfied due to pending patent. I hope this information did not scar you off, but increased your curiosity. Best Jan Warnqvisr -Ursprungligt meddelande- From: Darryl McMahon Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2014 4:03 PM To: Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol as a motor fuel In Canada, it is illegal to produce ethanol for fuel without a federal permit, and these are effectively never granted to a home brewer. I have been pondering the idea of using methanol (wood alcohol) as an alternative to ethanol fuel, but have not taken the time to research it. Has somebody else already done this, and can save me the effort? My recollection is it is possible to use methanol as a motor fuel, which is supported by this document. https://web.anl.gov/PCS/acsfuel/preprint%20archive/Files/20_2_PHILADELPHIA_04-75_0059.pdf I know that during the war years (1939 to 1945), a number of people ran engines on wood gas (the images of large gas bladders on vehicle roof racks come easily to mind). I do have access to wood waste and fruit waste material, but working space is at a premium. Also, the processes I see seem to be based on having process heat available (e.g., for pyrolysis). However, I don't think I need a lot - our third vehicle travels about 400 km a month, and I figure the methanol will only displace about 20 litres a month of gasoline at a maximum, probably less. I can buy methanol commercially, but in small quantities (retail), it is more expensive than gasoline. However, could be an option for experimentation in the vehicle before committing to home production. I also have not yet investigated regulatory and safety issues, but expect the latter to be manageable. Thoughts, experience, pointers to relevant experience or information? ___ Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel ___ Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel -- Darryl McMahon Project Manager, Common Assessment and Referral for Enhanced Support Services (CARESS
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as a motor fuel
Years ago I read that vehicles owned by New York State (U.S.) and operated on the New York State Thruway used either ethanol or methanol depending on availability. However, the manual for my flex fuel Ford Ranger warns against the use of methanol. A few years ago I asked the list if I could use homebrewed ethanol that was denatured with methanol (98:2 ratio) and was advised against it. How did Jan put it? Methanol is like ethanol only more so. Synthetic rubber seals and fuel lines hold up to ethanol, maybe not so well to methanol. Tom -Original Message- From: Darryl McMahon dar...@econogics.com Sent: 11/26/2014 10:03 AM To: Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol as a motor fuel In Canada, it is illegal to produce ethanol for fuel without a federal permit, and these are effectively never granted to a home brewer. I have been pondering the idea of using methanol (wood alcohol) as an alternative to ethanol fuel, but have not taken the time to research it. Has somebody else already done this, and can save me the effort? My recollection is it is possible to use methanol as a motor fuel, which is supported by this document. https://web.anl.gov/PCS/acsfuel/preprint%20archive/Files/20_2_PHILADELPHIA_04-75_0059.pdf I know that during the war years (1939 to 1945), a number of people ran engines on wood gas (the images of large gas bladders on vehicle roof racks come easily to mind). I do have access to wood waste and fruit waste material, but working space is at a premium. Also, the processes I see seem to be based on having process heat available (e.g., for pyrolysis). However, I don't think I need a lot - our third vehicle travels about 400 km a month, and I figure the methanol will only displace about 20 litres a month of gasoline at a maximum, probably less. I can buy methanol commercially, but in small quantities (retail), it is more expensive than gasoline. However, could be an option for experimentation in the vehicle before committing to home production. I also have not yet investigated regulatory and safety issues, but expect the latter to be manageable. Thoughts, experience, pointers to relevant experience or information? ___ Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel ___ Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as a motor fuel
What is it about the number of hydrogens per molecule that intrigues you? Methane: CH4, Methanol: CH3OH both have 4 H's per molecule, as would Methanoic Acid. Ethane: C2H6, Ethanol: C2H5OH each have 6 H's per molecule. Is there something about the number 4 itself, or is it the number of H's per Carbon atom? Methane: 4:1 vs Ethane: 3:1 with a decreasing ratio as we increase the size of the carbon chain. Just wondering, Tom -Original Message- From: John Jaser j...@jaser.net Sent: 11/26/2014 12:58 PM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as a motor fuel Methanol is super intriguing… the amount of hydrogen per molecule. From: Darryl McMahon Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2014 12:06 PM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org Jan, thanks for the quick response. Not scaring me off. I have read something which suggests adding methanol to gasoline has some potentially beneficial combustion effects. Lower energy content was known and accepted. I generally use synthetic lubricating oils anyway - better lube properties, longer life. Don't know what the implications of methanol use are on synthetic lubrication oils. So, still curious. Not a front-burner issue for me. So 3 lines of research at this point. 1) what are enviro pros/cons of using home-brew wood alcohol (methanol) as gasoline substitute - mixed fuel 2) what are the consequences for engine life, performance? Engine will not be optimized to methanol, but will be using a methanol-gasoline blend. I understand the fuel computer on the 2002 Astro van will adjust automatically to up to 50% ethanol blend (but have found nothing so far regarding methanol blend). I am assuming the fuel computer is working on oxygen and fuel energy ratios, and won't distinguish between ethanol and methanol. 3) what does the home-brew operation entail? (if it is not based on a sustainable biomass feedstock, then I'm not interested in pursuing it) Many other projects have higher priority for me at this point. I'll keep researching as time permits. Darryl On 26/11/2014 10:27 AM, Jan Warnqvist wrote: Darryl, methanol is already used as motor fuel in Indy Car and Speedway. Metanol is similar to ethanol, but more. It means that of all properties that ethanol has, methanol has more of them. Methanol is slightly more corrosive than water and has an oxygene content of 50% by weight. The flash point is slightly lower than for ethanol. Incomplete combustion of methanol generates formaldehyde and other toxic substances. It is also known that methanol can cause wear in excess in connection with the motor oil , unless the oil is specially suited for methanol. Your vehicle will consume double the amount of fuel compared to gasoline and cold starts will be very difficult unless you add some gasoline to the metanol fuel. However, you can expect a very high fuel effiency if your motor is fully adapted to the methanol fuel. That is the brief version, I also have designed a method for purification of sulfate methanol (derived from paper pulping) but that technology is currently classfied due to pending patent. I hope this information did not scar you off, but increased your curiosity. Best Jan Warnqvisr -Ursprungligt meddelande- From: Darryl McMahon Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2014 4:03 PM To: Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol as a motor fuel In Canada, it is illegal to produce ethanol for fuel without a federal permit, and these are effectively never granted to a home brewer. I have been pondering the idea of using methanol (wood alcohol) as an alternative to ethanol fuel, but have not taken the time to research it. Has somebody else already done this, and can save me the effort? My recollection is it is possible to use methanol as a motor fuel, which is supported by this document. https://web.anl.gov/PCS/acsfuel/preprint%20archive/Files/20_2_PHILADELPHIA_04-75_0059.pdf I know that during the war years (1939 to 1945), a number of people ran engines on wood gas (the images of large gas bladders on vehicle roof racks come easily to mind). I do have access to wood waste and fruit waste material, but working space is at a premium. Also, the processes I see seem to be based on having process heat available (e.g., for pyrolysis). However, I don't think I need a lot - our third vehicle travels about 400 km a month, and I figure the methanol will only displace about 20 litres a month of gasoline at a maximum, probably less. I can buy methanol commercially, but in small quantities (retail), it is more expensive than gasoline. However, could be an option for experimentation in the vehicle before committing to home production. I also have not yet investigated regulatory and safety issues, but expect
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as a motor fuel
Hi Tom: Sorry should have added the context. Intriguing as perhaps a better common denominator than hydrogen itself. e.g. can be easily transported; can be made from biogas; can power a fuel cell directly or indirectly; relatively safe From: Tom Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2014 2:49 PM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org What is it about the number of hydrogens per molecule that intrigues you? Methane: CH4, Methanol: CH3OH both have 4 H's per molecule, as would Methanoic Acid. Ethane: C2H6, Ethanol: C2H5OH each have 6 H's per molecule. Is there something about the number 4 itself, or is it the number of H's per Carbon atom? Methane: 4:1 vs Ethane: 3:1 with a decreasing ratio as we increase the size of the carbon chain. Just wondering, Tom -Original Message- From: John Jaser j...@jaser.net Sent: 11/26/2014 12:58 PM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as a motor fuel Methanol is super intriguing… the amount of hydrogen per molecule. From: Darryl McMahon Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2014 12:06 PM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org Jan, thanks for the quick response. Not scaring me off. I have read something which suggests adding methanol to gasoline has some potentially beneficial combustion effects. Lower energy content was known and accepted. I generally use synthetic lubricating oils anyway - better lube properties, longer life. Don't know what the implications of methanol use are on synthetic lubrication oils. So, still curious. Not a front-burner issue for me. So 3 lines of research at this point. 1) what are enviro pros/cons of using home-brew wood alcohol (methanol) as gasoline substitute - mixed fuel 2) what are the consequences for engine life, performance? Engine will not be optimized to methanol, but will be using a methanol-gasoline blend. I understand the fuel computer on the 2002 Astro van will adjust automatically to up to 50% ethanol blend (but have found nothing so far regarding methanol blend). I am assuming the fuel computer is working on oxygen and fuel energy ratios, and won't distinguish between ethanol and methanol. 3) what does the home-brew operation entail? (if it is not based on a sustainable biomass feedstock, then I'm not interested in pursuing it) Many other projects have higher priority for me at this point. I'll keep researching as time permits. Darryl On 26/11/2014 10:27 AM, Jan Warnqvist wrote: Darryl, methanol is already used as motor fuel in Indy Car and Speedway. Metanol is similar to ethanol, but more. It means that of all properties that ethanol has, methanol has more of them. Methanol is slightly more corrosive than water and has an oxygene content of 50% by weight. The flash point is slightly lower than for ethanol. Incomplete combustion of methanol generates formaldehyde and other toxic substances. It is also known that methanol can cause wear in excess in connection with the motor oil , unless the oil is specially suited for methanol. Your vehicle will consume double the amount of fuel compared to gasoline and cold starts will be very difficult unless you add some gasoline to the metanol fuel. However, you can expect a very high fuel effiency if your motor is fully adapted to the methanol fuel. That is the brief version, I also have designed a method for purification of sulfate methanol (derived from paper pulping) but that technology is currently classfied due to pending patent. I hope this information did not scar you off, but increased your curiosity. Best Jan Warnqvisr -Ursprungligt meddelande- From: Darryl McMahon Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2014 4:03 PM To: Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol as a motor fuel In Canada, it is illegal to produce ethanol for fuel without a federal permit, and these are effectively never granted to a home brewer. I have been pondering the idea of using methanol (wood alcohol) as an alternative to ethanol fuel, but have not taken the time to research it. Has somebody else already done this, and can save me the effort? My recollection is it is possible to use methanol as a motor fuel, which is supported by this document. https://web.anl.gov/PCS/acsfuel/preprint%20archive/Files/20_2_PHILADELPHIA_04-75_0059.pdf I know that during the war years (1939 to 1945), a number of people ran engines on wood gas (the images of large gas bladders on vehicle roof racks come easily to mind). I do have access to wood waste and fruit waste material, but working space is at a premium. Also, the processes I see seem to be based on having process heat available (e.g., for pyrolysis). However, I don't think I need a lot - our third vehicle travels about 400 km a month, and I figure
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as a motor fuel
Aaah, methane is intriguing. Biogas is a metabolic product of one of the most ancient life forms, the methanocreatrices. Anaerobic chemoautotrophic bacteria so different from others that many would assign them to their own kingdom. As to methane being easily transported consider where propane and natural gas can be compressed to liquids, greatly increasing energy density, methane resists liquefaction, requiring tremendous pressure. This seems to be the fly in the ointment. Unliquefied, a tankful of methane doesn't go far. Methane has value as a renewable fuel. It is captured and used at waste treatment plants to generate electricity. Methane is currently being captured at landfills and used to generate electricity. I know of a dairy farm that harvests methane from the manure the cows produce. They use the methane to generate electricity. The heat from the generators heats the water used to sanitize the milking area. They don't use the methane in their cars or farm machinery however. Relatively safe.Hmmm Methane is a potent greenhouse gas. Ocean burps from vast storehouses of methyl hydrates/clathrates have been credited with contributing significantly to the end of the last ice age. The release of methane from thawing peat bogs is a part of the cascade of events that is accelerating global warming. Gasoline was once considered a waste product of oil refining, dumped into rivers. When it was pointed out that it could replace ethanol as fuel for internal combustion engines the waste became valuable. Imagine what might happen if methane gas presented the same financial opportunities by its use as vehicle fuel a renewable fuel. Do we dare the oil giants to tap the vast stores of methane currently trapped safely under the ocean? It's already being proposed. They can do it safely, right? Have you seen the data about leakage from pipelines compressed gases seem to find their way out. Not so good in the case of methane. Capturing methane at its source and using it close to where it's produced to generate electricity seems appropriate. Sorry to carry on, but you did say methane was intriguing. Best, Tom -Original Message- From: John Jaser j...@jaser.net Sent: 11/26/2014 2:50 PM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as a motor fuel Hi Tom: Sorry should have added the context. Intriguing as perhaps a better common denominator than hydrogen itself. e.g. can be easily transported; can be made from biogas; can power a fuel cell directly or indirectly; relatively safe From: Tom Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2014 2:49 PM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org What is it about the number of hydrogens per molecule that intrigues you? Methane: CH4, Methanol: CH3OH both have 4 H's per molecule, as would Methanoic Acid. Ethane: C2H6, Ethanol: C2H5OH each have 6 H's per molecule. Is there something about the number 4 itself, or is it the number of H's per Carbon atom? Methane: 4:1 vs Ethane: 3:1 with a decreasing ratio as we increase the size of the carbon chain. Just wondering, Tom -Original Message- From: John Jaser j...@jaser.net Sent: 11/26/2014 12:58 PM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as a motor fuel Methanol is super intriguing… the amount of hydrogen per molecule. From: Darryl McMahon Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2014 12:06 PM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org Jan, thanks for the quick response. Not scaring me off. I have read something which suggests adding methanol to gasoline has some potentially beneficial combustion effects. Lower energy content was known and accepted. I generally use synthetic lubricating oils anyway - better lube properties, longer life. Don't know what the implications of methanol use are on synthetic lubrication oils. So, still curious. Not a front-burner issue for me. So 3 lines of research at this point. 1) what are enviro pros/cons of using home-brew wood alcohol (methanol) as gasoline substitute - mixed fuel 2) what are the consequences for engine life, performance? Engine will not be optimized to methanol, but will be using a methanol-gasoline blend. I understand the fuel computer on the 2002 Astro van will adjust automatically to up to 50% ethanol blend (but have found nothing so far regarding methanol blend). I am assuming the fuel computer is working on oxygen and fuel energy ratios, and won't distinguish between ethanol and methanol. 3) what does the home-brew operation entail? (if it is not based on a sustainable biomass feedstock, then I'm not interested in pursuing it) Many other projects have higher priority for me at this point. I'll keep researching
[Biofuel] Methanol Prices?
I am interested in finding out the going rate for Methanol these days. I found a local distributor but they seem very over priced @ $600+ for a 55 gallon drum. Or $10.90 a gallon Anyone know the going rate per gallon these days? I was expecting around $200 for 55 gallons. Am I dreaming? Corey ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Prices?
Wow do you get a kiss with that ? I am paying $3.50 a gal from a fuel supplier as off road fuel no road tax. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Corey Cauble Sent: Friday, March 30, 2007 4:04 PM To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol Prices? I am interested in finding out the going rate for Methanol these days. I found a local distributor but they seem very over priced @ $600+ for a 55 gallon drum. Or $10.90 a gallon Anyone know the going rate per gallon these days? I was expecting around $200 for 55 gallons. Am I dreaming? Corey ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Methanol prices?
In Alberta, you should be able to find 75 cents / L in drums. One or 2 outfits charge 60 cents but it is in Cube packs , or over 200 gallons per sale. I'm unsure because I suspect the 2 companies are linked as in one owns the other , which makes them the same to me. Where are you ? I could find out if they have a branch where you are and if the price is portable. Probly not but worth a try. Robin ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Methanol recovery;
Hey Tom et al; I think I might have a new solution for our woes re. re-use of methanol. Rather than trying to dry it for re-use in making BD we might be able to just use it for fuel. This local dude who is way into performance diesels comes into my place last night to talk about BD production and when I start talking about recovered methanol he suggests spraying it into the air intake on the diesel engine. Apparently he pioneered this idea years ago and now it is common among the tractor pull crowd. It can have high water content with no problem, in fact he says they sometimes intentionally add water to methanol when using this technique to avoid overfueling the engine and yet still getting the cooling effect that they need when they go for more power and EGT shoots up to 1500 deg or more. It sounds dead simple to add a spray nozzle to the air intake and use the recovered methanol for an occasional power boost. He says it can easily give a 25% power increase. Another plus - you know how they describe on the TDI club pages about how to take the intake manifold off and clean all the black crap out so the engine breathes again? Methanol spray does this for you without taking anything apart. Sweet! I am looking for the downside to this idea. Can anyone here think of a reason this might be a bad idea? Joe ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol recovery;
Propane is also used, but metanol would be more controlable and less volitale. From: Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol recovery; Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 09:52:11 -0500 Hey Tom et al; I think I might have a new solution for our woes re. re-use of methanol. Rather than trying to dry it for re-use in making BD we might be able to just use it for fuel. This local dude who is way into performance diesels comes into my place last night to talk about BD production and when I start talking about recovered methanol he suggests spraying it into the air intake on the diesel engine. Apparently he pioneered this idea years ago and now it is common among the tractor pull crowd. It can have high water content with no problem, in fact he says they sometimes intentionally add water to methanol when using this technique to avoid overfueling the engine and yet still getting the cooling effect that they need when they go for more power and EGT shoots up to 1500 deg or more. It sounds dead simple to add a spray nozzle to the air intake and use the recovered methanol for an occasional power boost. He says it can easily give a 25% power increase. Another plus - you know how they describe on the TDI club pages about how to take the intake manifold off and clean all the black crap out so the engine breathes again? Methanol spray does this for you without taking anything apart. Sweet! I am looking for the downside to this idea. Can anyone here think of a reason this might be a bad idea? Joe ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Suppliers
Hey allhere is a good price! 1.80/gallon, here is the link http://www.methanex.com/products/methanolprice.html Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 22:41:05 -0500From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [Biofuel] Methanol SuppliersHi all,I need a better supply of methanol. My local supplier is charging $5.75/gallon. AND, I have to call ahead so they can re-package it. Can anyone point me to a better source in south central Pennsylvania? Or, I suppose, I'd be willing to have it shipped but, I'd prefer to buy as locally as possible. Thanks,Ken _ Fixing up the home? Live Search can help. http://imagine-windowslive.com/search/kits/default.aspx?kit=improvelocale=en-USsource=wlmemailtaglinenov06___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Suppliers
I get it from a local oil and fuel supplier. They supply gas stations and businesses with fuel and lubes. I just got some 2 weeks ago $3.22 gal it is considered of road fuel so no road tax on it. They don't ask what i am doing with it and I don't tell them it's for bio D since its not going to be used as fuel. I feel that's not so bad. But that tax issue is a whole different subject. _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ken Dunn Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 7:41 PM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol Suppliers Hi all, I need a better supply of methanol. My local supplier is charging $5.75/gallon. AND, I have to call ahead so they can re-package it. Can anyone point me to a better source in south central Pennsylvania? Or, I suppose, I'd be willing to have it shipped but, I'd prefer to buy as locally as possible. Thanks, Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Methanol Suppliers
Hi all, I need a better supply of methanol. My local supplier is charging $5.75/gallon. AND, I have to call ahead so they can re-package it. Can anyone point me to a better source in south central Pennsylvania? Or, I suppose, I'd be willing to have it shipped but, I'd prefer to buy as locally as possible. Thanks, Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?
methanol can also be used as a denaturant, at 5%. ANYWAY... gasoline in small amounts will not ruin a reaction, but it will pollute the BD with unwanted fossil products. and anhydrous alcohol is not difficult to buy in bulk, its just a lot more expensive (and probably - long term - cheaper to make yourself...). Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 7:13 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase? Jim, Bad news. I don't think it will ever be possible to obtain 99%+ ethanol in the US unless you make it yourself. That is exactly what I planned to work on this past summer. I contacted the National Revenue Center to get info regarding ethanol production in order to make ethyl esters. They were very helpful. It is necessary to obtain a permit. Ethanol used on the premises covered under the permit does not have to be denatured, but any ethanol that leaves the premises must be denatured ex. 2 gal of unleaded gasoline added to 100 gal of ethanol. Because of this, I don't think it will be possible to obtain ethanol from another site. I don't know what effect the 2 gallons of gasoline/100 gal of ethanol would have on the transesterification process. I also suspect that only an E-85 blend would be available. May have to consider making fuel grade ethanol. I got discouraged and put it aside. Tom From: JAMES PHELPS To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 4:02 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase? It is something that I intend to fiddle with soon. I like ethanol as it won't blind you only makes you see double temporarily ;^). Jim - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 11:38 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase? Ethanol to make ethyl esters makes good sense. Not only renewable, but carbon neutral as well. May have to tweak the process a bit . vacuum to reduce water in oil? Use high quality WVO or do an Acid Stage to reduce FFAs. Haven't heard of anyone using ethanol and the Foolproof Method. Worth the effort I'd think. Will make for interesting discussion when ethanol (99%+) becomes available. Tom - Original Message - From: JAMES PHELPS To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 1:16 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase? Francisco, I predict that Biodiesel producers will start working with ethanol as a result of these price increases, this is a good thing and it needs to happen, when it does that means the biodiesel produced with ethanol is 100% renewable and not independent on a chemical produced with natural gas. After all when we run out of gas, that is what we will have to use anyway. The current timing is right as there are several hundred Ethanol plants across the US gearing up for production in 2007. We have one within 80 miles that I will start buying from when my methanol is out. Jim - Original Message - From: FRANCISCO To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 7:22 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase? I assume the metanol demand world wide is increasing as biofuels production are increasing sharply. Is it valid to assume prices have gone up do to pressure on demand not cost build up reasons? VEry best Chic VAN DER SLUYS, WILLIAM wrote: It is my understanding that most of the methanol available in the US is produced from ethylene (petroleum). I'm not surprising that methanol prices have gone up, but, I am surprised it took so long for them to do so. They probably will come back down in the near future since oil prices have moderated. The other way to make methanol is from wood, by way of pyrolysis (destructive heating which also produces charcoal) but this is not commonly done since it is more difficult and costly. - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase? Hello All, Did I miss the news? Has there been a significant increase in the price of methanol recently? I just got the bill for a delivery (two 55gal barrels). Previous price ( July): $2.60 USD/gallon; current bill: $3.54 USD/ gallon 35% increase in a few months? I'll call my supplier in a little while ... maybe it's just
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as Windshield wash antifreeze
That is around what I used in Wyoming I was using Heet didn't even know it was methanol. Works great. - Original Message - From: PAUL MILLERmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.orgmailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 6:44 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as Windshield wash antifreeze Hi Tom: A friend who mixes windshield wash commercially uses 35% in the winter. That is plenty strong for Montana, but if he uses that strength he does not have to worry if the temp goes below -10F by several degrees. Paul - Original Message - From: Thomas Kellymailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuelmailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 6:33 PM Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol as Windshield wash antifreeze Help if you can. I have relatives that own a bus company. They have 150+ gallons of windshield wash fluid. It is not winterized. How much methanol should be added to each gallon of washer fluid in order to prevent freezing to say -10F (-23C) ? I will experiment as follows: Small sample of fluid in freezer check temp it freezes at Add measured amount of methanol . check temp it freezes at Repeat until I get a vol:vol ratio that produces the desired results. I have other things to do tomorrow if anyone has a better plan/knows the correct ratio it would be appreciated. Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?
Tom and Jim I understand. Thks. Chic Thomas Kelly wrote: Chic wrote: Is it valid to assume prices have gone up do to pressure on demand not cost build up reasons? No. (Based on the best info I have) The explanation I received from a representative of a chemical supply company is consistent with the info at a site James Phelps provided: http://www.purchasing.com/article/CA6389243.html For various reasons there was an unexpected drop in methanol production. The drop in supply coupled with continued demand - price increase. This is similar to the helium shortage (almost thwarted the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade) due to two of the major producers going off line at the same time . one unexpectedly; the other to due routine yearly maintenance. The methanol price should return to a more reasonable level as production resumes. Production is supposedly coming back. Before the price drops, reduced reserves will have to be replenished. It would be interesting to plot monthly prices for methanol over the past few years . see if there are months/seasons when the price is low or high. The representative I talked to said that the price he pays (northeastern US) goes up a bit during our winter months due to increased demand for windshield washed fluid that is winterized w. methanol. Those of us who have the luxury of safe storage space might consider buying an extra barrel or two when the price is low. Tom - Original Message - *From:* FRANCISCO mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Thursday, November 23, 2006 9:22 AM *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase? I assume the metanol demand world wide is increasing as biofuels production are increasing sharply. Is it valid to assume prices have gone up do to pressure on demand not cost build up reasons? VEry best Chic VAN DER SLUYS, WILLIAM wrote: It is my understanding that most of the methanol available in the US is produced from ethylene (petroleum). I'm not surprising that methanol prices have gone up, but, I am surprised it took so long for them to do so. They probably will come back down in the near future since oil prices have moderated. The other way to make methanol is from wood, by way of pyrolysis (destructive heating which also produces charcoal) but this is not commonly done since it is more difficult and costly. - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase? Hello All, Did I miss the news? Has there been a significant increase in the price of methanol recently? I just got the bill for a delivery (two 55gal barrels). Previous price ( July): $2.60 USD/gallon; current bill: $3.54 USD/ gallon 35% increase in a few months? I'll call my supplier in a little while ... maybe it's just a billing mistake. I am just hoping someone has some info. Thanks, Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as Windshield wash antifreeze
Paul, Thanks for the info .35% WOW! 35 gal of methanol to 65 gal of summer wash fluid ... a lot of methanol No wonder demand for methanol increases in winter. Thanks again, Tom - Original Message - From: PAUL MILLER To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 8:44 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as Windshield wash antifreeze Hi Tom: A friend who mixes windshield wash commercially uses 35% in the winter. That is plenty strong for Montana, but if he uses that strength he does not have to worry if the temp goes below -10F by several degrees. Paul - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly To: biofuel Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 6:33 PM Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol as Windshield wash antifreeze Help if you can. I have relatives that own a bus company. They have 150+ gallons of windshield wash fluid. It is not winterized. How much methanol should be added to each gallon of washer fluid in order to prevent freezing to say -10F (-23C) ? I will experiment as follows: Small sample of fluid in freezer check temp it freezes at Add measured amount of methanol . check temp it freezes at Repeat until I get a vol:vol ratio that produces the desired results. I have other things to do tomorrow if anyone has a better plan/knows the correct ratio it would be appreciated. Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as Windshield wash antifreeze
Hi Tom; I think washer fluid typically contains 20 to 40% alcohol but I notice that on the cold days if I use the lower percentage the fluid can momentarily freeze up on the windsheild after wiping leaving streaks of ice. The higher percentage doesn't do this. Joe PAUL MILLER wrote: Hi Tom: A friend who mixes windshield wash commercially uses 35% in the winter. That is plenty strong for Montana, but if he uses that strength he does not have to worry if the temp goes below -10F by several degrees. Paul - Original Message - *From:* Thomas Kelly mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* biofuel mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Thursday, November 23, 2006 6:33 PM *Subject:* [Biofuel] Methanol as Windshield wash antifreeze Help if you can. I have relatives that own a bus company. They have 150+ gallons of windshield wash fluid. It is not winterized. How much methanol should be added to each gallon of washer fluid in order to prevent freezing to say -10F (-23C) ? I will experiment as follows: Small sample of fluid in freezer check temp it freezes at Add measured amount of methanol . check temp it freezes at Repeat until I get a vol:vol ratio that produces the desired results. I have other things to do tomorrow if anyone has a better plan/knows the correct ratio it would be appreciated. Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as Windshield wash antifreeze
Joe, I just got off the phone with my brother-in -law at the bus company. He said that his chemical supplier offered to send a 55 gal. drum of methanol to mix w roughly 160 gal of summer wash fluid. He asked me about it and I thought this was overkill, but in view of what you and Paul tell me it's probably about right (~25%). Doesn't the methanol, at 35 - 40%, damage the rubber seal on the edge of the window? The good news is . He thinks the chem. rep. said Methanol is up to $3 (US)/gal vs the best quote I got was $3.54/gal. Maybe I found a new, cheaper source of methanol. Tom - Original Message - From: Joe Street To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 9:01 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as Windshield wash antifreeze Hi Tom; I think washer fluid typically contains 20 to 40% alcohol but I notice that on the cold days if I use the lower percentage the fluid can momentarily freeze up on the windsheild after wiping leaving streaks of ice. The higher percentage doesn't do this. Joe PAUL MILLER wrote: Hi Tom: A friend who mixes windshield wash commercially uses 35% in the winter. That is plenty strong for Montana, but if he uses that strength he does not have to worry if the temp goes below -10F by several degrees. Paul - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly To: biofuel Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 6:33 PM Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol as Windshield wash antifreeze Help if you can. I have relatives that own a bus company. They have 150+ gallons of windshield wash fluid. It is not winterized. How much methanol should be added to each gallon of washer fluid in order to prevent freezing to say -10F (-23C) ? I will experiment as follows: Small sample of fluid in freezer check temp it freezes at Add measured amount of methanol . check temp it freezes at Repeat until I get a vol:vol ratio that produces the desired results. I have other things to do tomorrow if anyone has a better plan/knows the correct ratio it would be appreciated. Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as Windshield wash antifreeze
I haven't seen any issues with the methanol attacking anything on the car. Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Joe, I just got off the phone with my brother-in -law at the bus company. He said that his chemical supplier offered to send a 55 gal. drum of methanol to mix w roughly 160 gal of summer wash fluid. He asked me about it and I thought this was overkill, but in view of what you and Paul tell me it's probably about right (~25%). Doesn't the methanol, at 35 - 40%, damage the rubber seal on the edge of the window? The good news is . He thinks the chem. rep. said Methanol is up to $3 (US)/gal vs the best quote I got was $3.54/gal. Maybe I found a new, cheaper source of methanol. Tom - Original Message - *From:* Joe Street mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Friday, November 24, 2006 9:01 AM *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as Windshield wash antifreeze Hi Tom; I think washer fluid typically contains 20 to 40% alcohol but I notice that on the cold days if I use the lower percentage the fluid can momentarily freeze up on the windsheild after wiping leaving streaks of ice. The higher percentage doesn't do this. Joe PAUL MILLER wrote: Hi Tom: A friend who mixes windshield wash commercially uses 35% in the winter. That is plenty strong for Montana, but if he uses that strength he does not have to worry if the temp goes below -10F by several degrees. Paul - Original Message - *From:* Thomas Kelly mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* biofuel mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Thursday, November 23, 2006 6:33 PM *Subject:* [Biofuel] Methanol as Windshield wash antifreeze Help if you can. I have relatives that own a bus company. They have 150+ gallons of windshield wash fluid. It is not winterized. How much methanol should be added to each gallon of washer fluid in order to prevent freezing to say -10F (-23C) ? I will experiment as follows: Small sample of fluid in freezer check temp it freezes at Add measured amount of methanol . check temp it freezes at Repeat until I get a vol:vol ratio that produces the desired results. I have other things to do tomorrow if anyone has a better plan/knows the correct ratio it would be appreciated. Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?
I assume the metanol demand world wide is increasing as biofuels production are increasing sharply. Is it valid to assume prices have gone up do to pressure on demand not cost build up reasons? VEry best Chic VAN DER SLUYS, WILLIAM wrote: It is my understanding that most of the methanol available in the US is produced from ethylene (petroleum). I'm not surprising that methanol prices have gone up, but, I am surprised it took so long for them to do so. They probably will come back down in the near future since oil prices have moderated. The other way to make methanol is from wood, by way of pyrolysis (destructive heating which also produces charcoal) but this is not commonly done since it is more difficult and costly. - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase? Hello All, Did I miss the news? Has there been a significant increase in the price of methanol recently? I just got the bill for a delivery (two 55gal barrels). Previous price ( July): $2.60 USD/gallon; current bill: $3.54 USD/ gallon 35% increase in a few months? I'll call my supplier in a little while ... maybe it's just a billing mistake. I am just hoping someone has some info. Thanks, Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?
Chic wrote: Is it valid to assume prices have gone up do to pressure on demand not cost build up reasons? No. (Based on the best info I have) The explanation I received from a representative of a chemical supply company is consistent with the info at a site James Phelps provided: http://www.purchasing.com/article/CA6389243.html For various reasons there was an unexpected drop in methanol production. The drop in supply coupled with continued demand - price increase. This is similar to the helium shortage (almost thwarted the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade) due to two of the major producers going off line at the same time . one unexpectedly; the other to due routine yearly maintenance. The methanol price should return to a more reasonable level as production resumes. Production is supposedly coming back. Before the price drops, reduced reserves will have to be replenished. It would be interesting to plot monthly prices for methanol over the past few years . see if there are months/seasons when the price is low or high. The representative I talked to said that the price he pays (northeastern US) goes up a bit during our winter months due to increased demand for windshield washed fluid that is winterized w. methanol. Those of us who have the luxury of safe storage space might consider buying an extra barrel or two when the price is low. Tom - Original Message - From: FRANCISCO To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 9:22 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase? I assume the metanol demand world wide is increasing as biofuels production are increasing sharply. Is it valid to assume prices have gone up do to pressure on demand not cost build up reasons? VEry best Chic VAN DER SLUYS, WILLIAM wrote: It is my understanding that most of the methanol available in the US is produced from ethylene (petroleum). I'm not surprising that methanol prices have gone up, but, I am surprised it took so long for them to do so. They probably will come back down in the near future since oil prices have moderated. The other way to make methanol is from wood, by way of pyrolysis (destructive heating which also produces charcoal) but this is not commonly done since it is more difficult and costly. - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase? Hello All, Did I miss the news? Has there been a significant increase in the price of methanol recently? I just got the bill for a delivery (two 55gal barrels). Previous price ( July): $2.60 USD/gallon; current bill: $3.54 USD/ gallon 35% increase in a few months? I'll call my supplier in a little while ... maybe it's just a billing mistake. I am just hoping someone has some info. Thanks, Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?
Francisco, I predict that Biodiesel producers will start working with ethanol as a result of these price increases, this is a good thing and it needs to happen, when it does that means the biodiesel produced with ethanol is 100% renewable and not independent on a chemical produced with natural gas. After all when we run out of gas, that is what we will have to use anyway. The current timing is right as there are several hundred Ethanol plants across the US gearing up for production in 2007. We have one within 80 miles that I will start buying from when my methanol is out. Jim - Original Message - From: FRANCISCOmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.orgmailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 7:22 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase? I assume the metanol demand world wide is increasing as biofuels production are increasing sharply. Is it valid to assume prices have gone up do to pressure on demand not cost build up reasons? VEry best Chic VAN DER SLUYS, WILLIAM wrote: It is my understanding that most of the methanol available in the US is produced from ethylene (petroleum). I'm not surprising that methanol prices have gone up, but, I am surprised it took so long for them to do so. They probably will come back down in the near future since oil prices have moderated. The other way to make methanol is from wood, by way of pyrolysis (destructive heating which also produces charcoal) but this is not commonly done since it is more difficult and costly. - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] To: biofuel [mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgmailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org] Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase? Hello All, Did I miss the news? Has there been a significant increase in the price of methanol recently? I just got the bill for a delivery (two 55gal barrels). Previous price ( July): $2.60 USD/gallon; current bill: $3.54 USD/ gallon 35% increase in a few months? I'll call my supplier in a little while ... maybe it's just a billing mistake. I am just hoping someone has some info. Thanks, Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgmailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlhttp://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?
Ethanol to make ethyl esters makes good sense. Not only renewable, but carbon neutral as well. May have to tweak the process a bit . vacuum to reduce water in oil? Use high quality WVO or do an Acid Stage to reduce FFAs. Haven't heard of anyone using ethanol and the Foolproof Method. Worth the effort I'd think. Will make for interesting discussion when ethanol (99%+) becomes available. Tom - Original Message - From: JAMES PHELPS To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 1:16 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase? Francisco, I predict that Biodiesel producers will start working with ethanol as a result of these price increases, this is a good thing and it needs to happen, when it does that means the biodiesel produced with ethanol is 100% renewable and not independent on a chemical produced with natural gas. After all when we run out of gas, that is what we will have to use anyway. The current timing is right as there are several hundred Ethanol plants across the US gearing up for production in 2007. We have one within 80 miles that I will start buying from when my methanol is out. Jim - Original Message - From: FRANCISCO To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 7:22 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase? I assume the metanol demand world wide is increasing as biofuels production are increasing sharply. Is it valid to assume prices have gone up do to pressure on demand not cost build up reasons? VEry best Chic VAN DER SLUYS, WILLIAM wrote: It is my understanding that most of the methanol available in the US is produced from ethylene (petroleum). I'm not surprising that methanol prices have gone up, but, I am surprised it took so long for them to do so. They probably will come back down in the near future since oil prices have moderated. The other way to make methanol is from wood, by way of pyrolysis (destructive heating which also produces charcoal) but this is not commonly done since it is more difficult and costly. - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase? Hello All, Did I miss the news? Has there been a significant increase in the price of methanol recently? I just got the bill for a delivery (two 55gal barrels). Previous price ( July): $2.60 USD/gallon; current bill: $3.54 USD/ gallon 35% increase in a few months? I'll call my supplier in a little while ... maybe it's just a billing mistake. I am just hoping someone has some info. Thanks, Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforeverorg/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?
It is something that I intend to fiddle with soon. I like ethanol as it won't blind you only makes you see double temporarily ;^). Jim - Original Message - From: Thomas Kellymailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.orgmailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 11:38 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase? Ethanol to make ethyl esters makes good sense. Not only renewable, but carbon neutral as well. May have to tweak the process a bit . vacuum to reduce water in oil? Use high quality WVO or do an Acid Stage to reduce FFAs. Haven't heard of anyone using ethanol and the Foolproof Method. Worth the effort I'd think. Will make for interesting discussion when ethanol (99%+) becomes available. Tom - Original Message - From: JAMES PHELPSmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.orgmailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 1:16 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase? Francisco, I predict that Biodiesel producers will start working with ethanol as a result of these price increases, this is a good thing and it needs to happen, when it does that means the biodiesel produced with ethanol is 100% renewable and not independent on a chemical produced with natural gas. After all when we run out of gas, that is what we will have to use anyway. The current timing is right as there are several hundred Ethanol plants across the US gearing up for production in 2007. We have one within 80 miles that I will start buying from when my methanol is out. Jim - Original Message - From: FRANCISCOmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.orgmailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 7:22 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase? I assume the metanol demand world wide is increasing as biofuels production are increasing sharply. Is it valid to assume prices have gone up do to pressure on demand not cost build up reasons? VEry best Chic VAN DER SLUYS, WILLIAM wrote: It is my understanding that most of the methanol available in the US is produced from ethylene (petroleum). I'm not surprising that methanol prices have gone up, but, I am surprised it took so long for them to do so. They probably will come back down in the near future since oil prices have moderated. The other way to make methanol is from wood, by way of pyrolysis (destructive heating which also produces charcoal) but this is not commonly done since it is more difficult and costly. - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] To: biofuel [mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgmailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org] Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase? Hello All, Did I miss the news? Has there been a significant increase in the price of methanol recently? I just got the bill for a delivery (two 55gal barrels). Previous price ( July): $2.60 USD/gallon; current bill: $3.54 USD/ gallon 35% increase in a few months? I'll call my supplier in a little while ... maybe it's just a billing mistake. I am just hoping someone has some info. Thanks, Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgmailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforeverorg/biofuel.htmlhttp://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?
Jim, Bad news. I don't think it will ever be possible to obtain 99%+ ethanol in the US unless you make it yourself. That is exactly what I planned to work on this past summer. I contacted the National Revenue Center to get info regarding ethanol production in order to make ethyl esters. They were very helpful. It is necessary to obtain a permit. Ethanol used on the premises covered under the permit does not have to be denatured, but any ethanol that leaves the premises must be denatured ex. 2 gal of unleaded gasoline added to 100 gal of ethanol. Because of this, I don't think it will be possible to obtain ethanol from another site. I don't know what effect the 2 gallons of gasoline/100 gal of ethanol would have on the transesterification process. I also suspect that only an E-85 blend would be available. May have to consider making fuel grade ethanol. I got discouraged and put it aside. Tom From: JAMES PHELPS To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 4:02 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase? It is something that I intend to fiddle with soon. I like ethanol as it won't blind you only makes you see double temporarily ;^). Jim - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 11:38 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase? Ethanol to make ethyl esters makes good sense. Not only renewable, but carbon neutral as well. May have to tweak the process a bit . vacuum to reduce water in oil? Use high quality WVO or do an Acid Stage to reduce FFAs. Haven't heard of anyone using ethanol and the Foolproof Method. Worth the effort I'd think. Will make for interesting discussion when ethanol (99%+) becomes available. Tom - Original Message - From: JAMES PHELPS To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 1:16 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase? Francisco, I predict that Biodiesel producers will start working with ethanol as a result of these price increases, this is a good thing and it needs to happen, when it does that means the biodiesel produced with ethanol is 100% renewable and not independent on a chemical produced with natural gas. After all when we run out of gas, that is what we will have to use anyway. The current timing is right as there are several hundred Ethanol plants across the US gearing up for production in 2007. We have one within 80 miles that I will start buying from when my methanol is out. Jim - Original Message - From: FRANCISCO To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 7:22 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase? I assume the metanol demand world wide is increasing as biofuels production are increasing sharply. Is it valid to assume prices have gone up do to pressure on demand not cost build up reasons? VEry best Chic VAN DER SLUYS, WILLIAM wrote: It is my understanding that most of the methanol available in the US is produced from ethylene (petroleum). I'm not surprising that methanol prices have gone up, but, I am surprised it took so long for them to do so. They probably will come back down in the near future since oil prices have moderated. The other way to make methanol is from wood, by way of pyrolysis (destructive heating which also produces charcoal) but this is not commonly done since it is more difficult and costly. - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase? Hello All, Did I miss the news? Has there been a significant increase in the price of methanol recently? I just got the bill for a delivery (two 55gal barrels). Previous price ( July): $2.60 USD/gallon; current bill: $3.54 USD/ gallon 35% increase in a few months? I'll call my supplier in a little while ... maybe it's just a billing mistake. I am just hoping someone has some info. Thanks, Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforeverorg/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
[Biofuel] Methanol as Windshield wash antifreeze
Help if you can. I have relatives that own a bus company. They have 150+ gallons of windshield wash fluid. It is not winterized. How much methanol should be added to each gallon of washer fluid in order to prevent freezing to say -10F (-23C) ? I will experiment as follows: Small sample of fluid in freezer check temp it freezes at Add measured amount of methanol . check temp it freezes at Repeat until I get a vol:vol ratio that produces the desired results. I have other things to do tomorrow if anyone has a better plan/knows the correct ratio it would be appreciated. Tom___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as Windshield wash antifreeze
Hi Tom: A friend who mixes windshield wash commercially uses 35% in the winter. That is plenty strong for Montana, but if he uses that strength he does not have to worry if the temp goes below -10F by several degrees. Paul - Original Message - From: Thomas Kellymailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuelmailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 6:33 PM Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol as Windshield wash antifreeze Help if you can. I have relatives that own a bus company. They have 150+ gallons of windshield wash fluid. It is not winterized. How much methanol should be added to each gallon of washer fluid in order to prevent freezing to say -10F (-23C) ? I will experiment as follows: Small sample of fluid in freezer check temp it freezes at Add measured amount of methanol . check temp it freezes at Repeat until I get a vol:vol ratio that produces the desired results. I have other things to do tomorrow if anyone has a better plan/knows the correct ratio it would be appreciated. Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?
Hello All, Did I miss the news? Has there been a significant increase in the price of methanol recently? I just got the bill for a delivery (two 55gal barrels). Previous price ( July): $2.60 USD/gallon; current bill: $3.54 USD/ gallon 35% increase in a few months? I'll call my supplier in a little while ... maybe it's just a billing mistake. I am just hoping someone has some info. Thanks, Tom___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?
Think methanol price is strongly dependant of natural gas price which is linked to fuel prices. - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly To: biofuel Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 10:14 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase? Hello All, Did I miss the news? Has there been a significant increase in the price of methanol recently? I just got the bill for a delivery (two 55gal barrels). Previous price ( July): $2.60 USD/gallon; current bill: $3.54 USD/ gallon 35% increase in a few months? I'll call my supplier in a little while ... maybe it's just a billing mistake. I am just hoping someone has some info. Thanks, Tom -- ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __ Visita http://www.tutopia.com y comienza a navegar más rápido en Internet. Tutopia es Internet para todos. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?
My price went from 2.02 a gallon last month to 3.08 a gallon this month Logan Vilas -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andres Secco Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 7:51 AM To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase? Think methanol price is strongly dependant of natural gas price which is linked to fuel prices. - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 10:14 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase? Hello All, Did I miss the news? Has there been a significant increase in the price of methanol recently? I just got the bill for a delivery (two 55gal barrels). Previous price ( July): $2.60 USD/gallon; current bill: $3.54 USD/ gallon 35% increase in a few months? I'll call my supplier in a little while ... maybe it's just a billing mistake. I am just hoping someone has some info. Thanks, Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Visita www.tutopia.com http://www.tutopia.com/bannerserving/banman.asp?ZoneID=0BannerID=3174Adve rtiserID=776CampaignID=2424Task=ClickMode=TEXT y comienza a navegar más rápido en Internet. Tutopia es Internet para todos. http://www.tutopia.com/bannerserving/banman.asp?ZoneID=0BannerID=3494Adve rtiserID=776CampaignID=2739Task=GetMode=TEXT ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?
I just got off the phone with my methanol supplier. They are in Albany, NY (Northeastern US). They have been very nice people to work with friendly/helpful. I was told that they had a 35% price increase from their supplier, and passed it along. Is this a world-wide phenomenon or just a local/regional thing? Have I been asleep at the wheel? I hadn't heard of any drastic increases in the price of methanol. Tom - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly To: biofuel Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 8:14 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase? Hello All, Did I miss the news? Has there been a significant increase in the price of methanol recently? I just got the bill for a delivery (two 55gal barrels). Previous price ( July): $2.60 USD/gallon; current bill: $3.54 USD/ gallon 35% increase in a few months? I'll call my supplier in a little while ... maybe it's just a billing mistake. I am just hoping someone has some info. Thanks, Tom -- ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?
Tom, Yep, you missed it, I used to think it followed natural gas prices too but that is not the case unless there is a significant market lag that causes the price to lag about a year behind. Wellhead Gas prices have gone down considerably since last year. Someone mentioned that there was a force majure (sp) at two plants in India this fall. Tsunami effects?? guessing on this one. Conspiracy theories aside. It may have to do with our free market again since Biodiesel production has taken a sharp increase in the US the additional demand on the market could be the cause. this is often the case with finite supplies introduced to new markets overnight - Prices move up. Jim - Original Message - From: Thomas Kellymailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuelmailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 6:14 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase? Hello All, Did I miss the news? Has there been a significant increase in the price of methanol recently? I just got the bill for a delivery (two 55gal barrels). Previous price ( July): $2.60 USD/gallon; current bill: $3.54 USD/ gallon 35% increase in a few months? I'll call my supplier in a little while ... maybe it's just a billing mistake. I am just hoping someone has some info. Thanks, Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?
I just got this also please see http://www.purchasing.com/article/CA6389243.html Jim From: Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase? Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 09:44:45 -0500 I just got off the phone with my methanol supplier. They are in Albany, NY (Northeastern US). They have been very nice people to work with friendly/helpful. I was told that they had a 35% price increase from their supplier, and passed it along. Is this a world-wide phenomenon or just a local/regional thing? Have I been asleep at the wheel? I hadn't heard of any drastic increases in the price of methanol. Tom - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly To: biofuel Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 8:14 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase? Hello All, Did I miss the news? Has there been a significant increase in the price of methanol recently? I just got the bill for a delivery (two 55gal barrels). Previous price ( July): $2.60 USD/gallon; current bill: $3.54 USD/ gallon 35% increase in a few months? I'll call my supplier in a little while ... maybe it's just a billing mistake. I am just hoping someone has some info. Thanks, Tom -- ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?
Jim, Thanks for the reply. I originally got into making biodiesel for environmental reasons. However, I've experienced considerable $ savings . first on fuel for a car and now heating my house/water. I'm spoiled. I have a good, reliable fuel that is much more environmentally friendly than fossil fuels and have been making it at a fraction of the price of fossil fuels. When I started making BD I said: If it (BD) was available around here I wouldn't have to make it ... I'd buy it. Maybe increased demand is driving the price of methanol up. That might be a good thing if it is a sign that biodiesel production is increasing nationally/worldwide if we could include increases in ethanol use, solar wind generated power, the payoff in terms of environment, climate, health, and world harmony may well be worth the price we pay for energy. I'll continue to make my own BD even if the price of production goes up. I've developed a bad case of distrust for oil companies. Best to you, Tom - Original Message - From: JAMES PHELPS To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 9:42 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase? Tom, Yep, you missed it, I used to think it followed natural gas prices too but that is not the case unless there is a significant market lag that causes the price to lag about a year behind. Wellhead Gas prices have gone down considerably since last year. Someone mentioned that there was a force majure (sp) at two plants in India this fall. Tsunami effects?? guessing on this one. Conspiracy theories aside. It may have to do with our free market again since Biodiesel production has taken a sharp increase in the US the additional demand on the market could be the cause. this is often the case with finite supplies introduced to new markets overnight - Prices move up. Jim - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly To: biofuel Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 6:14 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase? Hello All, Did I miss the news? Has there been a significant increase in the price of methanol recently? I just got the bill for a delivery (two 55gal barrels). Previous price ( July): $2.60 USD/gallon; current bill: $3.54 USD/ gallon 35% increase in a few months? I'll call my supplier in a little while ... maybe it's just a billing mistake. I am just hoping someone has some info. Thanks, Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?
Jim, Thanks again. The site you provided answered the question about price Quite a spike. Looks like a combination of demand and decreased production. Continued strong demand and a large number of competitor outages caused an unprecedented shortage of methanol supply in the third quarter that drove spot methanol prices to record highs, said Bruce Aitken, CEO of key supplier Methanex. Tom - Original Message - From: JAMES PHELPS [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 10:16 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase? I just got this also please see http://www.purchasing.com/article/CA6389243.html Jim From: Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase? Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 09:44:45 -0500 I just got off the phone with my methanol supplier. They are in Albany, NY (Northeastern US). They have been very nice people to work with friendly/helpful. I was told that they had a 35% price increase from their supplier, and passed it along. Is this a world-wide phenomenon or just a local/regional thing? Have I been asleep at the wheel? I hadn't heard of any drastic increases in the price of methanol. Tom - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly To: biofuel Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 8:14 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase? Hello All, Did I miss the news? Has there been a significant increase in the price of methanol recently? I just got the bill for a delivery (two 55gal barrels). Previous price ( July): $2.60 USD/gallon; current bill: $3.54 USD/ gallon 35% increase in a few months? I'll call my supplier in a little while ... maybe it's just a billing mistake. I am just hoping someone has some info. Thanks, Tom -- ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?
It is my understanding that most of the methanol available in the US is produced from ethylene (petroleum). I'm not surprising that methanol prices have gone up, but, I am surprised it took so long for them to do so. They probably will come back down in the near future since oil prices have moderated. The other way to make methanol is from wood, by way of pyrolysis (destructive heating which also produces charcoal) but this is not commonly done since it is more difficult and costly. - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase? Hello All, Did I miss the news? Has there been a significant increase in the price of methanol recently? I just got the bill for a delivery (two 55gal barrels). Previous price ( July): $2.60 USD/gallon; current bill: $3.54 USD/ gallon 35% increase in a few months? I'll call my supplier in a little while ... maybe it's just a billing mistake. I am just hoping someone has some info. Thanks, Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?
William, Actually methanol prices have not been directly linked to oil prices. My understanding is that natural gas is the normal feedstock for methanol production. Of course, oil prices do effect distribution costs. I had an interesting discussion with the sales rep. from the chemical supply company I've been getting my methanol from. He mentioned seasonal fluctuations that are fairly predictable ex Here in the US, winter windshield wash contains methanol to prevent freezing. Increased demand in winter causes prices to go up a bit. He said that the current spike in price was related to a dramatic drop in production by a manufacturing plant in the Caribbean and two in India. He said that methanol prices have always been volatile; spikes in price are not uncommon. He could not say when prices will drop back to more normal prices, but seemed quite sure that this was a temporary increase. James Phelps provided a valuable link www.purchasing.com that has price info with explanation for methanol and other items. Tom - Original Message - From: VAN DER SLUYS, WILLIAM [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 10:30 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase? It is my understanding that most of the methanol available in the US is produced from ethylene (petroleum). I'm not surprising that methanol prices have gone up, but, I am surprised it took so long for them to do so. They probably will come back down in the near future since oil prices have moderated. The other way to make methanol is from wood, by way of pyrolysis (destructive heating which also produces charcoal) but this is not commonly done since it is more difficult and costly. - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase? Hello All, Did I miss the news? Has there been a significant increase in the price of methanol recently? I just got the bill for a delivery (two 55gal barrels). Previous price ( July): $2.60 USD/gallon; current bill: $3.54 USD/ gallon 35% increase in a few months? I'll call my supplier in a little while ... maybe it's just a billing mistake. I am just hoping someone has some info. Thanks, Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?
Just got off the dogbone to my supplier here in south coast of NSW Oz 200liters=$314.15 + GST so wack another10% on Thats all in Oz dollars which is about the equivalent value of monopoly mony William do yop have any info on making it from wood? Leo VAN DER SLUYS, WILLIAM [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It is my understanding that most of the methanol available in the US is produced from ethylene (petroleum). I'm not surprising that methanol prices have gone up, but, I am surprised it took so long for them to do so. They probably will come back down in the near future since oil prices have moderated. The other way to make methanol is from wood, by way of pyrolysis (destructive heating which also produces charcoal) but this is not commonly done since it is more difficult and costly. - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase? Hello All, Did I miss the news? Has there been a significant increase in the price of methanol recently? I just got the bill for a delivery (two 55gal barrels). Previous price ( July): $2.60 USD/gallon; current bill: $3.54 USD/ gallon 35% increase in a few months? I'll call my supplier in a little while ... maybe it's just a billing mistake. I am just hoping someone has some info. Thanks, Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/wood_alcohol.html Jim From: leo bunyan [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase? Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 09:12:42 +1100 (EST) Just got off the dogbone to my supplier here in south coast of NSW Oz 200liters=$314.15 + GST so wack another10% on Thats all in Oz dollars which is about the equivalent value of monopoly mony William do yop have any info on making it from wood? Leo VAN DER SLUYS, WILLIAM [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It is my understanding that most of the methanol available in the US is produced from ethylene (petroleum). I'm not surprising that methanol prices have gone up, but, I am surprised it took so long for them to do so. They probably will come back down in the near future since oil prices have moderated. The other way to make methanol is from wood, by way of pyrolysis (destructive heating which also produces charcoal) but this is not commonly done since it is more difficult and costly. - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase? Hello All, Did I miss the news? Has there been a significant increase in the price of methanol recently? I just got the bill for a delivery (two 55gal barrels). Previous price ( July): $2.60 USD/gallon; current bill: $3.54 USD/ gallon 35% increase in a few months? I'll call my supplier in a little while ... maybe it's just a billing mistake. I am just hoping someone has some info. Thanks, Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?
Of course check the library Thanks Jim JAMES PHELPS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/wood_alcohol.html Jim From: leo bunyan Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase? Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 09:12:42 +1100 (EST) Just got off the dogbone to my supplier here in south coast of NSW Oz 200liters=$314.15 + GST so wack another10% on Thats all in Oz dollars which is about the equivalent value of monopoly mony William do yop have any info on making it from wood? Leo VAN DER SLUYS, WILLIAM wrote: It is my understanding that most of the methanol available in the US is produced from ethylene (petroleum). I'm not surprising that methanol prices have gone up, but, I am surprised it took so long for them to do so. They probably will come back down in the near future since oil prices have moderated. The other way to make methanol is from wood, by way of pyrolysis (destructive heating which also produces charcoal) but this is not commonly done since it is more difficult and costly. - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase? Hello All, Did I miss the news? Has there been a significant increase in the price of methanol recently? I just got the bill for a delivery (two 55gal barrels). Previous price ( July): $2.60 USD/gallon; current bill: $3.54 USD/ gallon 35% increase in a few months? I'll call my supplier in a little while ... maybe it's just a billing mistake. I am just hoping someone has some info. Thanks, Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol
Dear Khin Wei Chong, If you want I've got the real technology, how to produce the methanol and the derivate comppounds. Best regards. Dr. Ezio Di Bernardo Hi, Im interested in getting methanol within the south east asian region. Would appreciate if anyone could provide me some assistance on where I can obtain methanol or provide me some quotes. Thanks. Joe Street wrote: Hi Jim; Ok I made up a graph by adding water one ml at a time to 90 ml of pure methanol. This was done at 23 degrees C which is the current temperature in my work area. The hydrometers are calibrated for 15 degrees so this is more practical for my purposes. As far as Bob's comment on what glycerin in the recovered methanol will do to the specific gravity, I cannot guess but glycerin has a pretty high boiling point and my recovered methanol looks water clear so there is not much glycerin in there I think. I am going to assume it is negligible. Primarily I am doing this just to determine roughly how much zeolite I need to dry the methanol. I will err on the conservative side with this. It looks like my recovered methanol has less than 10 % water (worst case) so a litre of methanol should have less than 100 grams of water in it. If zeolite can adsorb 10% of it's weight in water then 1Kg of zeolite per litre of methanol should be sufficient. Here is the chart. Since I typically recover less than 3 litres of methanol at a time I'll look for a molecular seive which holds at least 3 Kg of zeolite. BTW I know it was mentioned before and is in the archives but for convenience the type of seives to use for this is 3A. Best place for this is in the pipe upstream of the condenser. I'll get a trap with a built in heater so I can use my vacuum system to regenerate the seives. I'll then see how much water comes out of the zeolite and collects in the trap. I'll be interested to see if the numbers match up. So will I keep me posted Joe. Jim Cheers Joe Graph of methanol_water specific gravity. JJJN wrote: Does any one know of a good test to determine the amount of water in methanol? Joe were you working on something like this? Jim ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol
Dear Khin Wei Chong, If you want I've got the real technology, how to produce the methanol and the derivate comppounds. Methanol production for backyarders? Please tell us more. Best Keith Best regards. Dr. Ezio Di Bernardo Hi, Im interested in getting methanol within the south east asian region. Would appreciate if anyone could provide me some assistance on where I can obtain methanol or provide me some quotes. Thanks. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol
Hi, Im interested in getting methanol within the south east asian region. Would appreciate if anyone could provide me some assistance on where I can obtain methanol or provide me some quotes. Thanks. Joe Street wrote: Hi Jim; Ok I made up a graph by adding water one ml at a time to 90 ml of pure methanol. This was done at 23 degrees C which is the current temperature in my work area. The hydrometers are calibrated for 15 degrees so this is more practical for my purposes. As far as Bob's comment on what glycerin in the recovered methanol will do to the specific gravity, I cannot guess but glycerin has a pretty high boiling point and my recovered methanol looks water clear so there is not much glycerin in there I think. I am going to assume it is negligible. Primarily I am doing this just to determine roughly how much zeolite I need to dry the methanol. I will err on the conservative side with this. It looks like my recovered methanol has less than 10 % water (worst case) so a litre of methanol should have less than 100 grams of water in it. If zeolite can adsorb 10% of it's weight in water then 1Kg of zeolite per litre of methanol should be sufficient. Here is the chart. Since I typically recover less than 3 litres of methanol at a time I'll look for a molecular seive which holds at least 3 Kg of zeolite. BTW I know it was mentioned before and is in the archives but for convenience the type of seives to use for this is 3A. Best place for this is in the pipe upstream of the condenser. I'll get a trap with a built in heater so I can use my vacuum system to regenerate the seives. I'll then see how much water comes out of the zeolite and collects in the trap. I'll be interested to see if the numbers match up. So will I keep me posted Joe. Jim Cheers Joe Graph of methanol_water specific gravity. JJJN wrote: Does any one know of a good test to determine the amount of water in methanol? Joe were you working on something like this? Jim ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol-powered artificial muscles start to flex
Source: http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn8859feedId=online-news_rss20 Methanol-powered artificial muscles start to flex 19:00 16 March 2006 NewScientist.com news service Zeeya Merali Methanol-powered artificial muscles have been created by researchers aiming to create battery-free robotic limbs and prosthetics. One day you could find yourself sitting in a bar next to a humanoid robot, who is taking a shot of vodka to give himself the energy to go to work, jokes Ray Baughman, a nanotechnologist at the University of Texas at Dallas, US. The most athletic robots around today are chained to a power source, so they can't move about freely, he explains. In an effort to remove the robots from their battery-shackles, Baughman and colleagues have designed two types of artificial muscle that also act as fuel cells â converting chemical energy to mechanical movement. The first type of muscle is made from a nickel-titanium shape-memory wire coated in a platinum catalyst. When fumes of methanol, hydrogen and oxygen pass over the platinum coating, they react, releasing heat that warms the wire, making it contract. When the flow of fuel is stopped, the wire expands and returns to its original length. The wire muscle can generate 100 times the force of a natural muscle of the same size, says Baughman. Energy saver The team's second artificial muscle is made from sheets of carbon nanotubes, coated in a catalyst. It is not yet as powerful as the wire muscle, but could potentially overtake it, he says. As the fuel reacts with oxygen above the surface of the nanotube sheet, it releases a charge that make the sheet expand. The big advantage of the nanotube muscle is that it can also act as a capacitor, storing up electric energy it does not immediately need for later use, Baughman explains. The team are now working out exactly how to control the flow of fuel in practical prosthetic applications. Baughman believes that people with limited finger or arm mobility could control an artificial muscle using very slight movements to open and shut a valve to release the fuel. A second challenge for the group is ensuring that the muscles do not overheat as they contract, adds Baughman. âIt is very clever that the muscle itself is the fuel cell,â says Siegmar Roth, an artificial muscle expert at the Max Planck Institute in Stuttgart, Germany. âThis will be very good for medical applications because you canât put high voltages into humans, but these work on low voltages.â Reference: Science (vol 311, p 1580) ___ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] methanol price
The price of methanol overhere is € 0,53 per liter. Ethanol costs about € 0,80 per liter. Pieter Netherlands - Original Message - From: Blas Antonio Guanes [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2006 8:00 PM Subject: [Biofuel] ethanol method thanks, but the problem is that, methanol costs 4 $ and pure ethanol for car costs 0.52 $, NaOH is gotten in any part.. KOH is sold in bags of 25 kilos for soap industry.. Here in Paraguay it is difficult to get chemical products. for that reason I want know how I can make with oil, ethanol and NaOH In the archives I read that one can using a meth - eth cricker but economically it is not possible.. Is some form of making without using methanol? _ Descubre la descarga digital con MSN Music. Más de un millón de canciones. http://music.msn.es/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Recovery?
Mike Weaver wrote: HI MY NAME IS MIKE AND I HAVE A METHANOL PROBLEM. snip Thanks, I needed a good grin! doug swanson -- Contentment comes not from having more, but from wanting less. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * This email is constructed entirely with OpenSource Software. No Microsoft databits have been incorporated herein. All existing databits have been constructed from recycled databits. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Methanol recovery
Crystal Methanol has affected my spelling abilitie. Otherwise, I agree completely with Pieter. Amazing Keith, that you put any time in stupid articles like this man wrote. How can you keep your patients ? Greetings, Pieter. - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 8:13 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Recovery? HI MY NAME IS MIKE AND I HAVE A METHANOL PROBLEM. HI MIKE! I first began using methanol just on the weekends. A few bottles of dry gas here and there, just enought to make myself feel better about my fuel usage. Then it got to be too expensive to buy methanol in little bottles and I began to buy boxes of HEET. I drove all over town just to save a few cents on a case. Soon, as I began to feel better and better, and my VW ran better and better. I am ashamed to say I even got my friends involved. We snuck around behind seamy restaurants, liberating oil. We pretended to have drain problems so we could buy lye. We began to just want to be by ourselves, cooking our little batches. We egged each other on. Soon we had quite a litle crowd. Little bottles didn't cut it anymore. One of my buddies knew a guy who could get 5 gallon jugs. Suddenly life was good again. We built bigger and better works. We got brazen. We drove around stinking of oil - Thai food, French Fries and peanut oil. We started to meet the higher ups in the methanol trade. We did a deal and scored 55 gallons. We had quite a racket going. We though we were untouchable. Then it all came crashing down. There was an intervention. Nice white men is suits explained over and over how methanol leads to the destruction of the US economy. Good people at ExxonMobil, Shell and Sunoco would be out of work. They explained how we were a major factor in the collapse of the SUV industry, and the dire condition of GM and Ford. We felt bad. Today I am a happy member of society. I have an SUV and heat my house with petroleum. I drive work from the suburbs. Let my story be a warning to you all: One little bottel of methanol can lead to not just your downfall, but the wholesale collapse of all we hold dear. The American way of life is a blessed one. Be strong against the forces of darkness that seek to mislead you. Do not follow Keith. He is a false prophet. He lives on a mountain in Japan, preaching self-sufficiency. Little do most people know he is really the head of an evil cartel that has huge holdings in methanol, lye and vegetable oil. You have been warned! Oh, he has also cornered the market in Phenopthalein. It's not a false profit, how can you say such a thing? It's true that we did try to corner the market in that stuff but it didn't work because we couldn't spell it right either. Please make sure you get your facts straight next time before you start accusing innocent people of living on mountains and so on. And I don't preach self-sufficiency, all I said was I vunt to be alone. But thanks for asking people not to follow me up here at least. Be Strong! Hmph. Best Keith -Mike ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists. org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Recovery?
Keith! You live on a mountain in Japan? How are you coping with all the snow dude? Last I heard 4m fell. Be vewwwy qwiet while you tiptoe around ok? It wouldn't do to have a few megatons of snow come and wipe you off the mountain! J ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol recovery
Crystal Methanol has affected my spelling abilitie. Otherwise, I agree completely with Pieter. But what choice did you leave me, other than to have innocent people believing that we'd cornered the world supply of phenomenalfailure, which simply isn't true, the White House owns it. Amazing Keith, that you put any time in stupid articles like this man wrote. How can you keep your patients ? Bursts of manic laughter help a lot! Best Keith Greetings, Pieter. - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 8:13 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Recovery? HI MY NAME IS MIKE AND I HAVE A METHANOL PROBLEM. HI MIKE! I first began using methanol just on the weekends. A few bottles of dry gas here and there, just enought to make myself feel better about my fuel usage. Then it got to be too expensive to buy methanol in little bottles and I began to buy boxes of HEET. I drove all over town just to save a few cents on a case. Soon, as I began to feel better and better, and my VW ran better and better. I am ashamed to say I even got my friends involved. We snuck around behind seamy restaurants, liberating oil. We pretended to have drain problems so we could buy lye. We began to just want to be by ourselves, cooking our little batches. We egged each other on. Soon we had quite a litle crowd. Little bottles didn't cut it anymore. One of my buddies knew a guy who could get 5 gallon jugs. Suddenly life was good again. We built bigger and better works. We got brazen. We drove around stinking of oil - Thai food, French Fries and peanut oil. We started to meet the higher ups in the methanol trade. We did a deal and scored 55 gallons. We had quite a racket going. We though we were untouchable. Then it all came crashing down. There was an intervention. Nice white men is suits explained over and over how methanol leads to the destruction of the US economy. Good people at ExxonMobil, Shell and Sunoco would be out of work. They explained how we were a major factor in the collapse of the SUV industry, and the dire condition of GM and Ford. We felt bad. Today I am a happy member of society. I have an SUV and heat my house with petroleum. I drive work from the suburbs. Let my story be a warning to you all: One little bottel of methanol can lead to not just your downfall, but the wholesale collapse of all we hold dear. The American way of life is a blessed one. Be strong against the forces of darkness that seek to mislead you. Do not follow Keith. He is a false prophet. He lives on a mountain in Japan, preaching self-sufficiency. Little do most people know he is really the head of an evil cartel that has huge holdings in methanol, lye and vegetable oil. You have been warned! Oh, he has also cornered the market in Phenopthalein. It's not a false profit, how can you say such a thing? It's true that we did try to corner the market in that stuff but it didn't work because we couldn't spell it right either. Please make sure you get your facts straight next time before you start accusing innocent people of living on mountains and so on. And I don't preach self-sufficiency, all I said was I vunt to be alone. But thanks for asking people not to follow me up here at least. Be Strong! Hmph. Best Keith -Mike ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Recovery?
Keith! You live on a mountain in Japan? Indeed I do Joe, at least Weaver got something right, LOL! How are you coping with all the snow dude? Last I heard 4m fell. 7m in some places. It's killed about a hundred people in Japan so far. Not so bad here though, much worse in the north. Be vewwwy qwiet while you tiptoe around ok? It wouldn't do to have a few megatons of snow come and wipe you off the mountain! I agree! But the snow's gone now. We were under about a meter of snow for a month, very cold! Coldest December in 20 years or something. But the thaw came on Saturday and the snow melted. Now it's cold again and it just started snowing. I'm sure there'll be at least one more cold spell. We can handle the cold here, unlike our previous place, 18 months ago. That old wreck of a house was just too rotten, the weather went straight through it, very miserable when it froze over, difficult to do anything except try to keep warm, or to get warm rather. This is the same kind of 100-year-old farmhouse, but it's not rotten. We finished most of what we had to do before the snows came, nearly all of it in fact, complicated things with fields and pastures and grains and chickens and so on. Looks good, so far. Thanks for asking Joe. Regards Keith J ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Recovery?
Hi Theo Big-time, huh? :-) Hello everyone, I am scaling up the size of my processing units to make about 300-400gallons of biodiesel a day. Right now I do not do any methanol recovery however at the larger scale it makes a lot of finical sense to get back the methanol. I have had a lot of trouble finding somewhat larger devices for recovering the methanol. I was wondering if anyone has experience in this field. The internet mentions methanol recovery but no sights really go into methanol recovery and biodiesl. Any help would be appreciated. am open to either homemade designs or ones that can be purchased. Any useful links or links to pictures would be great. Also is it be to recover methanol form the glycerin, the biodiesel or both? Preferably both, but you should do it at the right stages, and you have to make some decisions about how to handle the by-product. See: Reclaiming excess methanol http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#methreclaim Best Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Recovery?
Could you put it through a still like you were going to make your own ethanol? I assume that the biofuel and glycerin are higher boiling points and the methanol will decanter off. Greg O. from MA -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Keith Addison Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 12:04 PM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Recovery? Hi Theo Big-time, huh? :-) Hello everyone, I am scaling up the size of my processing units to make about 300-400gallons of biodiesel a day. Right now I do not do any methanol recovery however at the larger scale it makes a lot of finical sense to get back the methanol. I have had a lot of trouble finding somewhat larger devices for recovering the methanol. I was wondering if anyone has experience in this field. The internet mentions methanol recovery but no sights really go into methanol recovery and biodiesl. Any help would be appreciated. am open to either homemade designs or ones that can be purchased. Any useful links or links to pictures would be great. Also is it be to recover methanol form the glycerin, the biodiesel or both? Preferably both, but you should do it at the right stages, and you have to make some decisions about how to handle the by-product. See: Reclaiming excess methanol http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#methreclaim Best Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.or g Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Recovery?
HI MY NAME IS MIKE AND I HAVE A METHANOL PROBLEM. HI MIKE! I first began using methanol just on the weekends. A few bottles of dry gas here and there, just enought to make myself feel better about my fuel usage. Then it got to be too expensive to buy methanol in little bottles and I began to buy boxes of HEET. I drove all over town just to save a few cents on a case. Soon, as I began to feel better and better, and my VW ran better and better. I am ashamed to say I even got my friends involved. We snuck around behind seamy restaurants, liberating oil. We pretended to have drain problems so we could buy lye. We began to just want to be by ourselves, cooking our little batches. We egged each other on. Soon we had quite a litle crowd. Little bottles didn't cut it anymore. One of my buddies knew a guy who could get 5 gallon jugs. Suddenly life was good again. We built bigger and better works. We got brazen. We drove around stinking of oil - Thai food, French Fries and peanut oil. We started to meet the higher ups in the methanol trade. We did a deal and scored 55 gallons. We had quite a racket going. We though we were untouchable. Then it all came crashing down. There was an intervention. Nice white men is suits explained over and over how methanol leads to the destruction of the US economy. Good people at ExxonMobil, Shell and Sunoco would be out of work. They explained how we were a major factor in the collapse of the SUV industry, and the dire condition of GM and Ford. We felt bad. Today I am a happy member of society. I have an SUV and heat my house with petroleum. I drive work from the suburbs. Let my story be a warning to you all: One little bottel of methanol can lead to not just your downfall, but the wholesale collapse of all we hold dear. The American way of life is a blessed one. Be strong against the forces of darkness that seek to mislead you. Do not follow Keith. He is a false prophet. He lives on a mountain in Japan, preaching self-sufficiency. Little do most people know he is really the head of an evil cartel that has huge holdings in methanol, lye and vegetable oil. You have been warned! Oh, he has also cornered the market in Phenopthalein. It's not a false profit, how can you say such a thing? It's true that we did try to corner the market in that stuff but it didn't work because we couldn't spell it right either. Please make sure you get your facts straight next time before you start accusing innocent people of living on mountains and so on. And I don't preach self-sufficiency, all I said was I vunt to be alone. But thanks for asking people not to follow me up here at least. Be Strong! Hmph. Best Keith -Mike ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Recovery? Amazing !!
Amazing Keith, that you put any time in stupid articles like this man wrote. How can you keep your patients ? Greetings, Pieter. - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 8:13 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Recovery? HI MY NAME IS MIKE AND I HAVE A METHANOL PROBLEM. HI MIKE! I first began using methanol just on the weekends. A few bottles of dry gas here and there, just enought to make myself feel better about my fuel usage. Then it got to be too expensive to buy methanol in little bottles and I began to buy boxes of HEET. I drove all over town just to save a few cents on a case. Soon, as I began to feel better and better, and my VW ran better and better. I am ashamed to say I even got my friends involved. We snuck around behind seamy restaurants, liberating oil. We pretended to have drain problems so we could buy lye. We began to just want to be by ourselves, cooking our little batches. We egged each other on. Soon we had quite a litle crowd. Little bottles didn't cut it anymore. One of my buddies knew a guy who could get 5 gallon jugs. Suddenly life was good again. We built bigger and better works. We got brazen. We drove around stinking of oil - Thai food, French Fries and peanut oil. We started to meet the higher ups in the methanol trade. We did a deal and scored 55 gallons. We had quite a racket going. We though we were untouchable. Then it all came crashing down. There was an intervention. Nice white men is suits explained over and over how methanol leads to the destruction of the US economy. Good people at ExxonMobil, Shell and Sunoco would be out of work. They explained how we were a major factor in the collapse of the SUV industry, and the dire condition of GM and Ford. We felt bad. Today I am a happy member of society. I have an SUV and heat my house with petroleum. I drive work from the suburbs. Let my story be a warning to you all: One little bottel of methanol can lead to not just your downfall, but the wholesale collapse of all we hold dear. The American way of life is a blessed one. Be strong against the forces of darkness that seek to mislead you. Do not follow Keith. He is a false prophet. He lives on a mountain in Japan, preaching self-sufficiency. Little do most people know he is really the head of an evil cartel that has huge holdings in methanol, lye and vegetable oil. You have been warned! Oh, he has also cornered the market in Phenopthalein. It's not a false profit, how can you say such a thing? It's true that we did try to corner the market in that stuff but it didn't work because we couldn't spell it right either. Please make sure you get your facts straight next time before you start accusing innocent people of living on mountains and so on. And I don't preach self-sufficiency, all I said was I vunt to be alone. But thanks for asking people not to follow me up here at least. Be Strong! Hmph. Best Keith -Mike ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Recovery? Amazing !!
For all the different races creeds right down to individual family structures the thought patterns and the associated thought denominators are infinite. Common sense is not. For Keith to take the time to respond to the mail lets me know that 1/ he is alive and well on the hill/mountain and 2/ is not discriminatory but has a site open to all. For a whole to work as one it needs to understand all the globally diverse denominators and thus the responses to address them. Who knows where Mike or Keith will finish up or the influences/legacies they leave behind. Twould appear that nothing is immortal not even the earth we tread under foot. Doug Handisides - Original Message - From: Bioclaire Nederland [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 5:55 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Recovery? Amazing !! *** No virus was detected in the attachment no filename Your mail has been scanned by InterScan. ***-*** Amazing Keith, that you put any time in stupid articles like this man wrote. How can you keep your patients ? Greetings, Pieter. - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 8:13 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Recovery? HI MY NAME IS MIKE AND I HAVE A METHANOL PROBLEM. HI MIKE! I first began using methanol just on the weekends. A few bottles of dry gas here and there, just enought to make myself feel better about my fuel usage. Then it got to be too expensive to buy methanol in little bottles and I began to buy boxes of HEET. I drove all over town just to save a few cents on a case. Soon, as I began to feel better and better, and my VW ran better and better. I am ashamed to say I even got my friends involved. We snuck around behind seamy restaurants, liberating oil. We pretended to have drain problems so we could buy lye. We began to just want to be by ourselves, cooking our little batches. We egged each other on. Soon we had quite a litle crowd. Little bottles didn't cut it anymore. One of my buddies knew a guy who could get 5 gallon jugs. Suddenly life was good again. We built bigger and better works. We got brazen. We drove around stinking of oil - Thai food, French Fries and peanut oil. We started to meet the higher ups in the methanol trade. We did a deal and scored 55 gallons. We had quite a racket going. We though we were untouchable. Then it all came crashing down. There was an intervention. Nice white men is suits explained over and over how methanol leads to the destruction of the US economy. Good people at ExxonMobil, Shell and Sunoco would be out of work. They explained how we were a major factor in the collapse of the SUV industry, and the dire condition of GM and Ford. We felt bad. Today I am a happy member of society. I have an SUV and heat my house with petroleum. I drive work from the suburbs. Let my story be a warning to you all: One little bottel of methanol can lead to not just your downfall, but the wholesale collapse of all we hold dear. The American way of life is a blessed one. Be strong against the forces of darkness that seek to mislead you. Do not follow Keith. He is a false prophet. He lives on a mountain in Japan, preaching self-sufficiency. Little do most people know he is really the head of an evil cartel that has huge holdings in methanol, lye and vegetable oil. You have been warned! Oh, he has also cornered the market in Phenopthalein. It's not a false profit, how can you say such a thing? It's true that we did try to corner the market in that stuff but it didn't work because we couldn't spell it right either. Please make sure you get your facts straight next time before you start accusing innocent people of living on mountains and so on. And I don't preach self-sufficiency, all I said was I vunt to be alone. But thanks for asking people not to follow me up here at least. Be Strong! Hmph. Best Keith -Mike ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org
[Biofuel] Methanol Recovery?
Hello everyone, I am scaling up the size of my processing units to make about 300-400gallons of biodiesel a day. Right now I do not do any methanol recovery however at the larger scale it makes a lot of finical sense to get back the methanol. I have had a lot of trouble finding somewhat larger devices for recovering the methanol. I was wondering if anyone has experience in this field. The internet mentions methanol recovery but no sights really go into methanol recovery and biodiesl. Any help would be appreciated. am open to either homemade designs or ones that can be purchased. Any useful links or links to pictures would be great. Also is it be to recover methanol form the glycerin, the biodiesel or both? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene gloves good enoughprotection?
So make 5 gallon batches and then put it in your tank. Zeke Yewdall wrote: Hmmm. Remind me never to come to your town, as my truck has an 18.5 gallon fuel tank filled with biodiesel/diesel. If I parked in your driveway, It'd be illegal. On 12/1/05, Chris [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Greg, Do people heat with fuel oil where you are? If so, that's not Biodiesel being stored, it's fuel oil. They have got to allow tanks of that. (Assuming people heat with oil where you are.) Chris K Cayce, SC - Original Message - From: Greg and April [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 4:09 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene gloves good enoughprotection? In an obscure way, I am all ready there. A neighbor up the street let me know about a month ago that if he ever suspects that I am making BioDiesel, he will make sure that one way or another will I end up in court ( legal or civil ). I'm not totaly sure of what the issue is, but, near as I can tell, he is one of those No one should do it but the professionals type of people, and he works for the city utilities ( I have found that he is the one of the people involved in buying the electricity for the city, so the fact that I want to use the BioDiesel to generate my own electricity is probably some concern to him ). It appears that the city has an obscure law about how much fuel ( and by what type) that can be stored on the premises of a residence, and only 5 gal of diesel ( of any type ) may be on hand at any time ( although 30 gal of kero may be stored ) in approved DOT above ground containers.To simplify things for inspectors, anything not approved by the law, is illegal. I'm still trying to figure out the ins and out's of this law, and so I'm just taking my time. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 13:40 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene gloves good enoughprotection? Hi Keith, You're probably right. I just have the fear that someone will kill/blind/maim themselves making BD and it'll be seized on by the forces of darkness. If training were available, or we could setp an serious non-profit (that is NOT the National Biodiesel Board) and do training, like The Motorcycle Safety Institute does, it would be a real service. I have toyed with the idea of a non-profit geared to and supported by the home-brew and smaller brew gang, to keep and an eye on legislation, provide the truth to the media and Congress and other Goverments, and to lobby to counter the anit-BD and biofuels people. This group could also provide training courses and certify trainers. Maybe to outreach to farmers and fleet drivers. I don't get the feeling the NBB is our friend. In no way do I mean to challenge your knowledge and instincts; you have far more experience and standing than I do. I guess I'm a Nervous Nellie sometimes. I am always careful to tell newbies coming by to learn what I do and why. Then I make a small batch with SVO, so it works, then move on from there. As for my safety when brewing, I do what I'm comfortable with. I spent years as a mechanic and have a bit of clue as to what to wear and when. That said, have I whipped up a small batch without gloves? Yup. I don't brew inside anymore, though. I finally built a shed for that, with good ventilation. Your JTF pages are good. I wouldn't add much. I have a punch list I give to people but you pretty much cover everything. Thanks, Mike ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene gloves good enoughprotection?
1. Where do you live? In most places you can download county regs and read them. *Do this.* 2. Go to the code enforcement office, or county clerk or whatever. Make friends. Be charming. Find out what the truth is. 3. Find out who would actually deal with this situation. Get to know him/her. If he/she is reasonable, talk it over and see what happens. 4. My neighbors call the county on me pretty much every week. But, I read ALL the regs, I've made a point of knowing who is in charge and being very polite and respectful, and I have the code and documentation right there. So far no problem.5. 5. I can't over-estimate the part about being polite and respectful. It makes the other person look like a crank. -good luck, Mike Greg and April wrote: In an obscure way, I am all ready there. A neighbor up the street let me know about a month ago that if he ever suspects that I am making BioDiesel, he will make sure that one way or another will I end up in court ( legal or civil ). I'm not totaly sure of what the issue is, but, near as I can tell, he is one of those No one should do it but the professionals type of people, and he works for the city utilities ( I have found that he is the one of the people involved in buying the electricity for the city, so the fact that I want to use the BioDiesel to generate my own electricity is probably some concern to him ). It appears that the city has an obscure law about how much fuel ( and by what type) that can be stored on the premises of a residence, and only 5 gal of diesel ( of any type ) may be on hand at any time ( although 30 gal of kero may be stored ) in approved DOT above ground containers.To simplify things for inspectors, anything not approved by the law, is illegal. I'm still trying to figure out the ins and out's of this law, and so I'm just taking my time. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 13:40 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene gloves good enoughprotection? Hi Keith, You're probably right. I just have the fear that someone will kill/blind/maim themselves making BD and it'll be seized on by the forces of darkness. If training were available, or we could setp an serious non-profit (that is NOT the National Biodiesel Board) and do training, like The Motorcycle Safety Institute does, it would be a real service. I have toyed with the idea of a non-profit geared to and supported by the home-brew and smaller brew gang, to keep and an eye on legislation, provide the truth to the media and Congress and other Goverments, and to lobby to counter the anit-BD and biofuels people. This group could also provide training courses and certify trainers. Maybe to outreach to farmers and fleet drivers. I don't get the feeling the NBB is our friend. In no way do I mean to challenge your knowledge and instincts; you have far more experience and standing than I do. I guess I'm a Nervous Nellie sometimes. I am always careful to tell newbies coming by to learn what I do and why. Then I make a small batch with SVO, so it works, then move on from there. As for my safety when brewing, I do what I'm comfortable with. I spent years as a mechanic and have a bit of clue as to what to wear and when. That said, have I whipped up a small batch without gloves? Yup. I don't brew inside anymore, though. I finally built a shed for that, with good ventilation. Your JTF pages are good. I wouldn't add much. I have a punch list I give to people but you pretty much cover everything. Thanks, Mike ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol suppliers
Ah thank you very much, google didnt give me any results in the past. Ordered me catalogue so hopefully should get that soon! (dont worry too much about prices though, over here it would have been £6/gal!) Looks like im gonna have to start work on that ethanol distillery sooner rather then later though! Cheers again Chris --- Robert Carr [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Chris, what sort of quantities are you looking for? For 25L plus, try Performance chemicals Ltd. Prices are good but carriage charges are very high. For less than 25L, you can have some of mine at cost if you can collect from Peterborough. Hope this helps Rgds Bob - Original Message - From: Chris May [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 3:54 PM Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol suppliers Hi everyone, Ive just started attempting to make BD but after getting some methanol from a local model airplane shop, he told me that his supplier has told him he can no longer get him the stuff since apparently the british government have outlawed methanol being sold a seperate item so 95% or better stuff will become impossible to find! I was just wondering if there is any truth in that and if any homebrewers local to the east London/Essex area can let me know any places where I can purchase some methanol (I am way too novice to start using ethenol lol) Cheers for any information! Chris ___ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene gloves goodenoughprotection?
I'm a residence not a restraunt/business, so the exemtions for 'Other Oils' don't apply. Greg H. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 19:38 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene gloves goodenoughprotection? it's only biodiesel if you call it biodiesel. i would call it a biodegradable degreaser, cooking oil,cleaning fluid ,or yellow stuff. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene glovesgood enoughprotection?
No. Near as I can tell, everything is NG with some electric and a few solar. Greg H - Original Message - From: Chris [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 18:59 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene glovesgood enoughprotection? Greg, Do people heat with fuel oil where you are? If so, that's not Biodiesel being stored, it's fuel oil. They have got to allow tanks of that. (Assuming people heat with oil where you are.) Chris K Cayce, SC ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene gloves goodenoughprotection?
Furnace is Natural Gas. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Kenji James Fuse [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 23:43 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene gloves goodenoughprotection? Hey Greg, Can't you put your biodiesel in a furnace tank and call it home heating oil? That should get around that arcane law. Too bad about your neighbour, tho'... Kenji Fuse ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene gloves goodenoughprotection?
It's one thing if it is a vehicle fuel tank, something else if it is not. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 22:02 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene gloves goodenoughprotection? Hmmm. Remind me never to come to your town, as my truck has an 18.5 gallon fuel tank filled with biodiesel/diesel. If I parked in your driveway, It'd be illegal. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene gloves good enough protection?
Thanks to all for the thorough responses to my queries about methanol and gloves! Y'all rule... What's your views on my addition of 0.5-2% addition of gasoline to my veggie oil prior to biodiesel production during cold/damp weather? It seems to take care of the moisture factor which had me occasionally making glop soup during damp times. It seems like a small amount to feel guilty about, and it seems to work consistently. Kenji Fuse ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene glovesgood enoughprotection?
Greg and April wrote: No. Near as I can tell, everything is NG with some electric and a few solar. Greg H I guess you could consider biodiesel as a storage system for solar energy... doug swanson - Original Message - From: Chris [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 18:59 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene glovesgood enoughprotection? Greg, Do people heat with fuel oil where you are? If so, that's not Biodiesel being stored, it's fuel oil. They have got to allow tanks of that. (Assuming people heat with oil where you are.) Chris K Cayce, SC ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- All generalizations are false. Including this one. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * This email is constructed entirely with OpenSource Software. No Microsoft databits have been incorporated herein. All existing databits have been constructed from recycled databits. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Methanol suppliers
Hi everyone, Ive just started attempting to make BD but after getting some methanol from a local model airplane shop, he told me that his supplier has told him he can no longer get him the stuff since apparently the british government have outlawed methanol being sold a seperate item so 95% or better stuff will become impossible to find! I was just wondering if there is any truth in that and if any homebrewers local to the east London/Essex area can let me know any places where I can purchase some methanol (I am way too novice to start using ethenol lol) Cheers for any information! Chris ___ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol
Hi Peter Hi Keith and All ; I had a bug infestation eating new leaves on some trees I was growing. The only thing I had handy was some 85% methanol. I used a hand pump spray bottle and sprayed it on, and the plants loved it, the bugs all died and haven't come back yet. Interesting. With 85% too. Did the methanol kill the bugs? (The other possibility is that the newly invigorated trees killed them.) I sprayed some 10% methanol on some greens but didn't see any difference with the ones I didn't spray. But it was autumn already, much less light, so I didn't expect much, and I don't know if they're C3 or C4 plants. I thought it was a good result that it didn't kill them. I'll try again in the summer. Thanks, all best Keith Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene gloves good enough protection?
Better to be over-cautious than under-cautious. I know what you're saying Mike, but I don't agree. Maybe you wouldn't either if you saw all the emails I've had from people shying away from brewing biodiesel because of all those dreadful chemicals. Maybe if the playing field was level, without the constant attempts to stir it up by various parties mainly in the SVO-PPO) camp, but I think even then I'd stick to due caution, neither under nor over. I wish we could set up a training series and teach interested parties how to brew safely. I dread the thought than someone will make an avoidable error and taint the home-brewing scenario. We've all had that fear for years, and biofuels doesn't have any shortage of enemies who'd make the most of it. Yet in all that time nobody's been hurt that we know of, and I think we'd have known. Tom Leue famously burnt his shed down, for entirely avoidable reasons, and was slightly injured, and that's it. Extraordinary. Which doesn't mean it won't happen tomorrow. If I wrote a quick safety punchlist would the greybeards on the list look it over - if approved maybe Keith would post it on the website? Sure, but have a look at these first: Safety http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#safe Hazards http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor.html#haz Best Keith I have some informal points in my biodiesel notebook that could probably be expanded. -Mike Keith Addison wrote: We're veering between incaution and overcaution. There've been some other messages pooh-poohing safety in general. I'd agree too much safety is dangerous, but so is too little. What's required is *due* caution, which needs good information. Here it is: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#moremeth More about methanol Question: Just how dangerous is methanol? Fact: Methanol is a poisonous chemical that can blind you or kill you, and as well as drinking it you can absorb it through the skin and breathe in the fumes. Question: How much does it take to kill you? Short answer: Anything from five teaspoons to more than half a pint, but nobody really knows. Fact: Human susceptibility to the acute effects of methanol intoxication is extremely variable. The minimum dose of methanol causing permanent visual defects is unknown. The lethal dose of methanol for humans is not known for certain. The minimum lethal dose of methanol in the absence of medical treatment is put at between 0.3 and 1 g/kg. That means it's thought to take at least 20 grams of methanol to kill an average-sized person, or 25 ml, five teaspoonsful. Or it might need more than three times as much, 66 grams, 17 teaspoonsful, or maybe more, and even then it'll only kill you if you can't reach a doctor within a day or two, and maybe it still won't kill you. But it definitely can kill you. If you drink five teaspoonsful of pure methanol you'll need medical treatment even if it doesn't kill you. Yet people have survived doses of 10 times as much -- a quarter of a litre, half a pint -- without any permanent harm. But others haven't survived much lower doses. Getting rapid medical attention is crucial, though the poisoning effects can be slow to develop. Authorities advise that swallowing up to 1.3 grams or 1.7 ml of methanol or inhaling methanol vapour concentrations below 200 ppm should be harmless for most people. No severe effects have been reported in humans of methanol vapour exposures well above 200 ppm. Out of 1,601 methanol poisonings reported in the US in 1987 the death rate was 0.375%, or 1 in 267 cases. It might have been only 1 in more than a thousand cases because most cases weren't reported. Most cases were caused by drinking badly made moonshine, which is a worldwide problem. Fiction: Methanol is ... a very active chemical against which the human body has no means of defence. It is absorbed easily through the skin and there is no means of elimination from the body, so levels of methanol dissolved in the blood accumulate. That's from a British website trying to sell Straight Vegetable Oil (SVO) solvent additives by frightening people with the alleged perils of biodiesel. See The SVO vs biodiesel argument Fact: 30 litres of fruit juice will probably contain up to 20 grams of methanol, near the official minimum lethal dose. Methanol is in the food we eat, in fresh fruit and vegetables, beer and wine, diet drinks, artificial sweeteners. Not only that, methanol occurs naturally in humans. It's a natural component of blood, urine, saliva and the air you breathe out. It's there anyway even if you've never been exposed to chemical methanol or its fumes. Methanol is eliminated from the body as a normal matter of course via the urine and exhaled air and by metabolism. Getting rid of it takes from a few hours for low doses to a day or two for higher doses. Some proportion of a dose of methanol just goes straight through,
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene gloves good enough protection?
Hi Keith, You're probably right. I just have the fear that someone will kill/blind/maim themselves making BD and it'll be seized on by the forces of darkness. If training were available, or we could setp an serious non-profit (that is NOT the National Biodiesel Board) and do training, like The Motorcycle Safety Institute does, it would be a real service. I have toyed with the idea of a non-profit geared to and supported by the home-brew and smaller brew gang, to keep and an eye on legislation, provide the truth to the media and Congress and other Goverments, and to lobby to counter the anit-BD and biofuels people. This group could also provide training courses and certify trainers. Maybe to outreach to farmers and fleet drivers. I don't get the feeling the NBB is our friend. In no way do I mean to challenge your knowledge and instincts; you have far more experience and standing than I do. I guess I'm a Nervous Nellie sometimes. I am always careful to tell newbies coming by to learn what I do and why. Then I make a small batch with SVO, so it works, then move on from there. As for my safety when brewing, I do what I'm comfortable with. I spent years as a mechanic and have a bit of clue as to what to wear and when. That said, have I whipped up a small batch without gloves? Yup. I don't brew inside anymore, though. I finally built a shed for that, with good ventilation. Your JTF pages are good. I wouldn't add much. I have a punch list I give to people but you pretty much cover everything. Thanks, Mike Keith Addison wrote: Better to be over-cautious than under-cautious. I know what you're saying Mike, but I don't agree. Maybe you wouldn't either if you saw all the emails I've had from people shying away from brewing biodiesel because of all those dreadful chemicals. Maybe if the playing field was level, without the constant attempts to stir it up by various parties mainly in the SVO-PPO) camp, but I think even then I'd stick to due caution, neither under nor over. I wish we could set up a training series and teach interested parties how to brew safely. I dread the thought than someone will make an avoidable error and taint the home-brewing scenario. We've all had that fear for years, and biofuels doesn't have any shortage of enemies who'd make the most of it. Yet in all that time nobody's been hurt that we know of, and I think we'd have known. Tom Leue famously burnt his shed down, for entirely avoidable reasons, and was slightly injured, and that's it. Extraordinary. Which doesn't mean it won't happen tomorrow. If I wrote a quick safety punchlist would the greybeards on the list look it over - if approved maybe Keith would post it on the website? Sure, but have a look at these first: Safety http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#safe Hazards http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor.html#haz Best Keith I have some informal points in my biodiesel notebook that could probably be expanded. -Mike Keith Addison wrote: We're veering between incaution and overcaution. There've been some other messages pooh-poohing safety in general. I'd agree too much safety is dangerous, but so is too little. What's required is *due* caution, which needs good information. Here it is: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#moremeth More about methanol Question: Just how dangerous is methanol? Fact: Methanol is a poisonous chemical that can blind you or kill you, and as well as drinking it you can absorb it through the skin and breathe in the fumes. Question: How much does it take to kill you? Short answer: Anything from five teaspoons to more than half a pint, but nobody really knows. Fact: Human susceptibility to the acute effects of methanol intoxication is extremely variable. The minimum dose of methanol causing permanent visual defects is unknown. The lethal dose of methanol for humans is not known for certain. The minimum lethal dose of methanol in the absence of medical treatment is put at between 0.3 and 1 g/kg. That means it's thought to take at least 20 grams of methanol to kill an average-sized person, or 25 ml, five teaspoonsful. Or it might need more than three times as much, 66 grams, 17 teaspoonsful, or maybe more, and even then it'll only kill you if you can't reach a doctor within a day or two, and maybe it still won't kill you. But it definitely can kill you. If you drink five teaspoonsful of pure methanol you'll need medical treatment even if it doesn't kill you. Yet people have survived doses of 10 times as much -- a quarter of a litre, half a pint -- without any permanent harm. But others haven't survived much lower doses. Getting rapid medical attention is crucial, though the poisoning effects can be slow to develop. Authorities advise that swallowing up to 1.3 grams or 1.7 ml of methanol or inhaling methanol vapour concentrations below 200 ppm should be harmless for most
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol suppliers
Hi Chris, what sort of quantities are you looking for? For 25L plus, try Performance chemicals Ltd. Prices are good but carriage charges are very high. For less than 25L, you can have some of mine at cost if you can collect from Peterborough. Hope this helps Rgds Bob - Original Message - From: Chris May [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 3:54 PM Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol suppliers Hi everyone, Ive just started attempting to make BD but after getting some methanol from a local model airplane shop, he told me that his supplier has told him he can no longer get him the stuff since apparently the british government have outlawed methanol being sold a seperate item so 95% or better stuff will become impossible to find! I was just wondering if there is any truth in that and if any homebrewers local to the east London/Essex area can let me know any places where I can purchase some methanol (I am way too novice to start using ethenol lol) Cheers for any information! Chris ___ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene gloves good enoughprotection?
In an obscure way, I am all ready there. A neighbor up the street let me know about a month ago that if he ever suspects that I am making BioDiesel, he will make sure that one way or another will I end up in court ( legal or civil ). I'm not totaly sure of what the issue is, but, near as I can tell, he is one of those No one should do it but the professionals type of people, and he works for the city utilities ( I have found that he is the one of the people involved in buying the electricity for the city, so the fact that I want to use the BioDiesel to generate my own electricity is probably some concern to him ). It appears that the city has an obscure law about how much fuel ( and by what type) that can be stored on the premises of a residence, and only 5 gal of diesel ( of any type ) may be on hand at any time ( although 30 gal of kero may be stored ) in approved DOT above ground containers.To simplify things for inspectors, anything not approved by the law, is illegal. I'm still trying to figure out the ins and out's of this law, and so I'm just taking my time. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 13:40 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene gloves good enoughprotection? Hi Keith, You're probably right. I just have the fear that someone will kill/blind/maim themselves making BD and it'll be seized on by the forces of darkness. If training were available, or we could setp an serious non-profit (that is NOT the National Biodiesel Board) and do training, like The Motorcycle Safety Institute does, it would be a real service. I have toyed with the idea of a non-profit geared to and supported by the home-brew and smaller brew gang, to keep and an eye on legislation, provide the truth to the media and Congress and other Goverments, and to lobby to counter the anit-BD and biofuels people. This group could also provide training courses and certify trainers. Maybe to outreach to farmers and fleet drivers. I don't get the feeling the NBB is our friend. In no way do I mean to challenge your knowledge and instincts; you have far more experience and standing than I do. I guess I'm a Nervous Nellie sometimes. I am always careful to tell newbies coming by to learn what I do and why. Then I make a small batch with SVO, so it works, then move on from there. As for my safety when brewing, I do what I'm comfortable with. I spent years as a mechanic and have a bit of clue as to what to wear and when. That said, have I whipped up a small batch without gloves? Yup. I don't brew inside anymore, though. I finally built a shed for that, with good ventilation. Your JTF pages are good. I wouldn't add much. I have a punch list I give to people but you pretty much cover everything. Thanks, Mike ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene gloves good enoughprotection?
Greg, Do people heat with fuel oil where you are? If so, that's not Biodiesel being stored, it's fuel oil. They have got to allow tanks of that. (Assuming people heat with oil where you are.) Chris K Cayce, SC - Original Message - From: Greg and April [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 4:09 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene gloves good enoughprotection? In an obscure way, I am all ready there. A neighbor up the street let me know about a month ago that if he ever suspects that I am making BioDiesel, he will make sure that one way or another will I end up in court ( legal or civil ). I'm not totaly sure of what the issue is, but, near as I can tell, he is one of those No one should do it but the professionals type of people, and he works for the city utilities ( I have found that he is the one of the people involved in buying the electricity for the city, so the fact that I want to use the BioDiesel to generate my own electricity is probably some concern to him ). It appears that the city has an obscure law about how much fuel ( and by what type) that can be stored on the premises of a residence, and only 5 gal of diesel ( of any type ) may be on hand at any time ( although 30 gal of kero may be stored ) in approved DOT above ground containers.To simplify things for inspectors, anything not approved by the law, is illegal. I'm still trying to figure out the ins and out's of this law, and so I'm just taking my time. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 13:40 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene gloves good enoughprotection? Hi Keith, You're probably right. I just have the fear that someone will kill/blind/maim themselves making BD and it'll be seized on by the forces of darkness. If training were available, or we could setp an serious non-profit (that is NOT the National Biodiesel Board) and do training, like The Motorcycle Safety Institute does, it would be a real service. I have toyed with the idea of a non-profit geared to and supported by the home-brew and smaller brew gang, to keep and an eye on legislation, provide the truth to the media and Congress and other Goverments, and to lobby to counter the anit-BD and biofuels people. This group could also provide training courses and certify trainers. Maybe to outreach to farmers and fleet drivers. I don't get the feeling the NBB is our friend. In no way do I mean to challenge your knowledge and instincts; you have far more experience and standing than I do. I guess I'm a Nervous Nellie sometimes. I am always careful to tell newbies coming by to learn what I do and why. Then I make a small batch with SVO, so it works, then move on from there. As for my safety when brewing, I do what I'm comfortable with. I spent years as a mechanic and have a bit of clue as to what to wear and when. That said, have I whipped up a small batch without gloves? Yup. I don't brew inside anymore, though. I finally built a shed for that, with good ventilation. Your JTF pages are good. I wouldn't add much. I have a punch list I give to people but you pretty much cover everything. Thanks, Mike ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene gloves good enoughprotection?
it's only biodiesel if you call it biodiesel. i would call it a biodegradable degreaser, cooking oil,cleaning fluid ,or yellow stuff. In an obscure way, I am all ready there. A neighbor up the street let me know about a month ago that if he ever suspects that I am making BioDiesel, he will make sure that one way or another will I end up in court ( legal or civil ). I'm not totaly sure of what the issue is, but, near as I can tell, he is one of those No one should do it but the professionals type of people, and he works for the city utilities ( I have found that he is the one of the people involved in buying the electricity for the city, so the fact that I want to use the BioDiesel to generate my own electricity is probably some concern to him ). It appears that the city has an obscure law about how much fuel ( and by what type) that can be stored on the premises of a residence, and only 5 gal of diesel ( of any type ) may be on hand at any time ( although 30 gal of kero may be stored ) in approved DOT above ground containers.To simplify things for inspectors, anything not approved by the law, is illegal. I'm still trying to figure out the ins and out's of this law, and so I'm just taking my time. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 13:40 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene gloves good enoughprotection? Hi Keith, You're probably right. I just have the fear that someone will kill/blind/maim themselves making BD and it'll be seized on by the forces of darkness. If training were available, or we could setp an serious non-profit (that is NOT the National Biodiesel Board) and do training, like The Motorcycle Safety Institute does, it would be a real service. I have toyed with the idea of a non-profit geared to and supported by the home-brew and smaller brew gang, to keep and an eye on legislation, provide the truth to the media and Congress and other Goverments, and to lobby to counter the anit-BD and biofuels people. This group could also provide training courses and certify trainers. Maybe to outreach to farmers and fleet drivers. I don't get the feeling the NBB is our friend. In no way do I mean to challenge your knowledge and instincts; you have far more experience and standing than I do. I guess I'm a Nervous Nellie sometimes. I am always careful to tell newbies coming by to learn what I do and why. Then I make a small batch with SVO, so it works, then move on from there. As for my safety when brewing, I do what I'm comfortable with. I spent years as a mechanic and have a bit of clue as to what to wear and when. That said, have I whipped up a small batch without gloves? Yup. I don't brew inside anymore, though. I finally built a shed for that, with good ventilation. Your JTF pages are good. I wouldn't add much. I have a punch list I give to people but you pretty much cover everything. Thanks, Mike ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene gloves good enoughprotection?
Hmmm. Remind me never to come to your town, as my truck has an 18.5 gallon fuel tank filled with biodiesel/diesel. If I parked in your driveway, It'd be illegal. On 12/1/05, Chris [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Greg, Do people heat with fuel oil where you are? If so, that's not Biodiesel being stored, it's fuel oil. They have got to allow tanks of that. (Assuming people heat with oil where you are.) Chris K Cayce, SC - Original Message - From: Greg and April [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 4:09 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene gloves good enoughprotection? In an obscure way, I am all ready there. A neighbor up the street let me know about a month ago that if he ever suspects that I am making BioDiesel, he will make sure that one way or another will I end up in court ( legal or civil ). I'm not totaly sure of what the issue is, but, near as I can tell, he is one of those No one should do it but the professionals type of people, and he works for the city utilities ( I have found that he is the one of the people involved in buying the electricity for the city, so the fact that I want to use the BioDiesel to generate my own electricity is probably some concern to him ). It appears that the city has an obscure law about how much fuel ( and by what type) that can be stored on the premises of a residence, and only 5 gal of diesel ( of any type ) may be on hand at any time ( although 30 gal of kero may be stored ) in approved DOT above ground containers.To simplify things for inspectors, anything not approved by the law, is illegal. I'm still trying to figure out the ins and out's of this law, and so I'm just taking my time. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 13:40 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene gloves good enoughprotection? Hi Keith, You're probably right. I just have the fear that someone will kill/blind/maim themselves making BD and it'll be seized on by the forces of darkness. If training were available, or we could setp an serious non-profit (that is NOT the National Biodiesel Board) and do training, like The Motorcycle Safety Institute does, it would be a real service. I have toyed with the idea of a non-profit geared to and supported by the home-brew and smaller brew gang, to keep and an eye on legislation, provide the truth to the media and Congress and other Goverments, and to lobby to counter the anit-BD and biofuels people. This group could also provide training courses and certify trainers. Maybe to outreach to farmers and fleet drivers. I don't get the feeling the NBB is our friend. In no way do I mean to challenge your knowledge and instincts; you have far more experience and standing than I do. I guess I'm a Nervous Nellie sometimes. I am always careful to tell newbies coming by to learn what I do and why. Then I make a small batch with SVO, so it works, then move on from there. As for my safety when brewing, I do what I'm comfortable with. I spent years as a mechanic and have a bit of clue as to what to wear and when. That said, have I whipped up a small batch without gloves? Yup. I don't brew inside anymore, though. I finally built a shed for that, with good ventilation. Your JTF pages are good. I wouldn't add much. I have a punch list I give to people but you pretty much cover everything. Thanks, Mike ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene gloves good enoughprotection?
Hey Greg, Can't you put your biodiesel in a furnace tank and call it home heating oil? That should get around that arcane law. Too bad about your neighbour, tho'... Kenji Fuse ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene gloves good enough protection?
We're veering between incaution and overcaution. There've been some other messages pooh-poohing safety in general. I'd agree too much safety is dangerous, but so is too little. What's required is *due* caution, which needs good information. Here it is: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#moremeth More about methanol Question: Just how dangerous is methanol? Fact: Methanol is a poisonous chemical that can blind you or kill you, and as well as drinking it you can absorb it through the skin and breathe in the fumes. Question: How much does it take to kill you? Short answer: Anything from five teaspoons to more than half a pint, but nobody really knows. Fact: Human susceptibility to the acute effects of methanol intoxication is extremely variable. The minimum dose of methanol causing permanent visual defects is unknown. The lethal dose of methanol for humans is not known for certain. The minimum lethal dose of methanol in the absence of medical treatment is put at between 0.3 and 1 g/kg. That means it's thought to take at least 20 grams of methanol to kill an average-sized person, or 25 ml, five teaspoonsful. Or it might need more than three times as much, 66 grams, 17 teaspoonsful, or maybe more, and even then it'll only kill you if you can't reach a doctor within a day or two, and maybe it still won't kill you. But it definitely can kill you. If you drink five teaspoonsful of pure methanol you'll need medical treatment even if it doesn't kill you. Yet people have survived doses of 10 times as much -- a quarter of a litre, half a pint -- without any permanent harm. But others haven't survived much lower doses. Getting rapid medical attention is crucial, though the poisoning effects can be slow to develop. Authorities advise that swallowing up to 1.3 grams or 1.7 ml of methanol or inhaling methanol vapour concentrations below 200 ppm should be harmless for most people. No severe effects have been reported in humans of methanol vapour exposures well above 200 ppm. Out of 1,601 methanol poisonings reported in the US in 1987 the death rate was 0.375%, or 1 in 267 cases. It might have been only 1 in more than a thousand cases because most cases weren't reported. Most cases were caused by drinking badly made moonshine, which is a worldwide problem. Fiction: Methanol is ... a very active chemical against which the human body has no means of defence. It is absorbed easily through the skin and there is no means of elimination from the body, so levels of methanol dissolved in the blood accumulate. That's from a British website trying to sell Straight Vegetable Oil (SVO) solvent additives by frightening people with the alleged perils of biodiesel. See The SVO vs biodiesel argument Fact: 30 litres of fruit juice will probably contain up to 20 grams of methanol, near the official minimum lethal dose. Methanol is in the food we eat, in fresh fruit and vegetables, beer and wine, diet drinks, artificial sweeteners. Not only that, methanol occurs naturally in humans. It's a natural component of blood, urine, saliva and the air you breathe out. It's there anyway even if you've never been exposed to chemical methanol or its fumes. Methanol is eliminated from the body as a normal matter of course via the urine and exhaled air and by metabolism. Getting rid of it takes from a few hours for low doses to a day or two for higher doses. Some proportion of a dose of methanol just goes straight through, excreted by the lungs and kidneys unchanged. The normal background-level quantities of methanol in humans are eliminated and replenished all the time as a matter of course. Fiction: It's largely biodiesel's methanol content that's being blamed when the same British SVO website charges that biodiesel is wasteful and environmentally irresponsible. Fact: Methanol is readily biodegradable in the environment under both aerobic and anaerobic conditions (with and without oxygen) in a wide variety of conditions. Generally 80% of methanol in sewage systems is biodegraded within 5 days. Methanol is a normal growth substrate for many soil microorganisms, which completely degrade methanol to carbon dioxide and water. Methanol is of low toxicity to aquatic and terrestrial organisms and it is not bioaccumulated. (It's toxic mainly to humans and monkeys.) Environmental effects due to exposure to methanol are unlikely. Unless released in high concentrations, methanol would not be expected to persist or bioaccumulate in the environment. Low levels of release would not be expected to result in adverse environmental effects. Fiction: A European SVO fuel website using similar anti-biodiesel tactics claims: Biodiesel is a chemically altered plant oil. However the process to chemically change the structure of Pure Plant Oil is a very costly operation and requires a lot of energy, as it removes the glycerine substituting it by methanol as well as adding other
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol
On Nov 29, 2005, at 11:51 PM, Keith Addison wrote: We're veering between incaution and overcaution. There've been some other messages pooh-poohing safety in general. I'd agree too much safety is dangerous, but so is too little. What's required is *due* caution, which needs good information. Thanks again, Keith, for bringing a balanced viewpoint, much as I do like to veer :-). Though hardly a chemophobe, even I would be horrified to take pure methanol internally even in the minutest of quantities. I'm cautious but not paranoid about the occasional whiff of vapor, and less cautious still about absorption through the skin. I wouldn't immerse my hands in it, but a spill or splash vapor- izes almost instantly and has no time to be significantly absorbed. -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol
On Nov 29, 2005, at 11:51 PM, Keith Addison wrote: We're veering between incaution and overcaution. There've been some other messages pooh-poohing safety in general. I'd agree too much safety is dangerous, but so is too little. What's required is *due* caution, which needs good information. Thanks again, Keith, for bringing a balanced viewpoint, much as I do like to veer :-). :-) So do I Ken, I'm sure we're not the only ones. I suppose it would be wiser always to wait until one had enough information for a balanced viewpoint before veering, but I can't plead guilty to that. Though hardly a chemophobe, even I would be horrified to take pure methanol internally even in the minutest of quantities. Right, no way. Let Nature provide if she wants to, I'm sure she doesn't need any help from me. I'm cautious but not paranoid about the occasional whiff of vapor, and less cautious still about absorption through the skin. I wouldn't immerse my hands in it, but a spill or splash vapor- izes almost instantly and has no time to be significantly absorbed. I agree with you, but I wouldn't advise it, such advice too easily goes wild - Ken says Cleopatra used to bath in it or something. Actually I never get exposed to it when I'm making biodiesel, but like Joe I use it for a lot of other things, it's useful stuff, splashes happen, but it's negligible. I agree with Bob though, I absolutely don't want methanol in my eyes, and I'm careful about that. You're using it with a mix of mostly ethanol aren't you? That'd make it friendlier. Coming soon to a workshop near me, it's only #4 on the list now. Well, on that particular list... All best Keith -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene gloves good enough protection?
Better to be over-cautious than under-cautious. I wish we could set up a training series and teach interested parties how to brew safely. I dread the thought than someone will make an avoidable error and taint the home-brewing scenario. If I wrote a quick safety punchlist would the greybeards on the list look it over - if approved maybe Keith would post it on the website? I have some informal points in my biodiesel notebook that could probably be expanded. -Mike Keith Addison wrote: We're veering between incaution and overcaution. There've been some other messages pooh-poohing safety in general. I'd agree too much safety is dangerous, but so is too little. What's required is *due* caution, which needs good information. Here it is: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#moremeth More about methanol Question: Just how dangerous is methanol? Fact: Methanol is a poisonous chemical that can blind you or kill you, and as well as drinking it you can absorb it through the skin and breathe in the fumes. Question: How much does it take to kill you? Short answer: Anything from five teaspoons to more than half a pint, but nobody really knows. Fact: Human susceptibility to the acute effects of methanol intoxication is extremely variable. The minimum dose of methanol causing permanent visual defects is unknown. The lethal dose of methanol for humans is not known for certain. The minimum lethal dose of methanol in the absence of medical treatment is put at between 0.3 and 1 g/kg. That means it's thought to take at least 20 grams of methanol to kill an average-sized person, or 25 ml, five teaspoonsful. Or it might need more than three times as much, 66 grams, 17 teaspoonsful, or maybe more, and even then it'll only kill you if you can't reach a doctor within a day or two, and maybe it still won't kill you. But it definitely can kill you. If you drink five teaspoonsful of pure methanol you'll need medical treatment even if it doesn't kill you. Yet people have survived doses of 10 times as much -- a quarter of a litre, half a pint -- without any permanent harm. But others haven't survived much lower doses. Getting rapid medical attention is crucial, though the poisoning effects can be slow to develop. Authorities advise that swallowing up to 1.3 grams or 1.7 ml of methanol or inhaling methanol vapour concentrations below 200 ppm should be harmless for most people. No severe effects have been reported in humans of methanol vapour exposures well above 200 ppm. Out of 1,601 methanol poisonings reported in the US in 1987 the death rate was 0.375%, or 1 in 267 cases. It might have been only 1 in more than a thousand cases because most cases weren't reported. Most cases were caused by drinking badly made moonshine, which is a worldwide problem. Fiction: Methanol is ... a very active chemical against which the human body has no means of defence. It is absorbed easily through the skin and there is no means of elimination from the body, so levels of methanol dissolved in the blood accumulate. That's from a British website trying to sell Straight Vegetable Oil (SVO) solvent additives by frightening people with the alleged perils of biodiesel. See The SVO vs biodiesel argument Fact: 30 litres of fruit juice will probably contain up to 20 grams of methanol, near the official minimum lethal dose. Methanol is in the food we eat, in fresh fruit and vegetables, beer and wine, diet drinks, artificial sweeteners. Not only that, methanol occurs naturally in humans. It's a natural component of blood, urine, saliva and the air you breathe out. It's there anyway even if you've never been exposed to chemical methanol or its fumes. Methanol is eliminated from the body as a normal matter of course via the urine and exhaled air and by metabolism. Getting rid of it takes from a few hours for low doses to a day or two for higher doses. Some proportion of a dose of methanol just goes straight through, excreted by the lungs and kidneys unchanged. The normal background-level quantities of methanol in humans are eliminated and replenished all the time as a matter of course. Fiction: It's largely biodiesel's methanol content that's being blamed when the same British SVO website charges that biodiesel is wasteful and environmentally irresponsible. Fact: Methanol is readily biodegradable in the environment under both aerobic and anaerobic conditions (with and without oxygen) in a wide variety of conditions. Generally 80% of methanol in sewage systems is biodegraded within 5 days. Methanol is a normal growth substrate for many soil microorganisms, which completely degrade methanol to carbon dioxide and water. Methanol is of low toxicity to aquatic and terrestrial organisms and it is not bioaccumulated. (It's toxic mainly to humans and monkeys.) Environmental effects due to exposure to methanol are unlikely. Unless released in high concentrations, methanol would not
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol
Hi Keith and All ; I had a bug infestation eating new leaves on some trees I was growing. The only thing I had handy was some 85% methanol. I used a hand pump spray bottle and sprayed it on, and the plants loved it, the bugs all died and haven't come back yet. Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand __ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] methanol recovery from fuel stock?
Thankyou Ken, succinctly put, as ever. Best Keith On Nov 4, 2005, at 10:11 PM, Ken Dunn wrote: I'm still a bit confused. What is the trick to evaporating the methanol without reversing the process? Very simple -- you can't boil off methanol when both biodiesel and glycerine are present without shifting the equilibrium backwards to some extent. You can recover methanol out of a mixture of methanol with biodiesel, or out of a mixture of methanol with glycerine, but NOT out of a mixture of all three. -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] methanol recovery from fuel stock?
what the boilling point of diesel is but itw way below the boiling point of water at 212,, buck From: JJJN [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] methanol recovery from fuel stock? Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2005 19:31:32 -0800 Hi Derick, I too am curios about this, but isnt 275 deg F on the edge of the envelope Bio? I would like to try this as well but instead use a vacume to keep the temp down. how much ethanol did you recover? That alone may make it worth while. Jim Derick Giorchino wrote: I have pondering this for some time but figured I should get some success with making fuel first. Since alcohol is added from time to time to storage tanks so it will mix with the water and thus the blended alcohol water mixes with the fuel. This being the said, I wondered if the wash could be shortened or less of a waste problem by distilling the methanol out of the finished product before washing. I have just finished a 120 liter batch I pulled off 1 liter of fuel stock ¸ I put in a old pressure cooker with the steam vent replaced with a hose barb and connected it to my evaporator. Turned the flame on and heated to 275 deg F for 10 minutes or so. Let it cool a bit and pored it into a pet bottle added the wash water shook it hard it separated in just a few minutes. The other half was just put in a pet bottle and wash water was added and shook it hard although it is separating not even close to the same speed as the demethanoled batch. Is there any problem with this process? I wouldnât ask but I canât find anything in the archives. Thanks Derick ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ _ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol substitution
one laboratory method would be to combine equimolar amounts of methyl chloride (chloromethane by the iupac) with a nitrate salt. Greg and April wrote: Then how is NitoMethane made? Greg H. - Original Message - From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2005 10:35 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol substitution Howdy Teoman, bubbling thru the solution is all that it would do. It doesn't react under these conditions. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Bob Allen http://ozarker.org/bob Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves — Richard Feynman ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol substitution
Teoman, you really need at least a short course in organic chemistry. It would answer most if not all of your questions. A little understanding of organic chemistry can go a long way. Teoman Naskali wrote: Any known functional groups? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris Tan Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2005 1:58 PM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol substitution Hydrocarbons are relatively inert. They only undergo reaction at vigorous conditions such high pressure and/or high temperature, i.e. with a spark(kaboom!). A reactant would need to have what is called a functional group to react at less vigorous condition. With alcohols, the functional group is -OH which makes it react. Best, Chris -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of JJJN Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2005 7:00 PM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol substitution How would you react the solution with the gas? Teoman Naskali wrote: Just a thoght bu would it be possible to use methane or propane or buthane instead of methanol? One would have to have some methanol for the methroxide but still... that would save a lot of money. Has anynone experimented? Any good reason why I shouldn't? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.o rg Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.or g Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.or g Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Bob Allen http://ozarker.org/bob Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves — Richard Feynman ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol substitution
Hydrocarbons are relatively inert. They only undergo reaction at vigorous conditions such high pressure and/or high temperature, i.e. with a spark(kaboom!). A reactant would need to have what is called a functional group to react at less vigorous condition. With alcohols, the functional group is -OH which makes it react. Best, Chris -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of JJJN Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2005 7:00 PM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol substitution How would you react the solution with the gas? Teoman Naskali wrote: Just a thoght bu would it be possible to use methane or propane or buthane instead of methanol? One would have to have some methanol for the methroxide but still... that would save a lot of money. Has anynone experimented? Any good reason why I shouldn't? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.o rg Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.or g Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol substitution
Any known functional groups? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris Tan Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2005 1:58 PM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol substitution Hydrocarbons are relatively inert. They only undergo reaction at vigorous conditions such high pressure and/or high temperature, i.e. with a spark(kaboom!). A reactant would need to have what is called a functional group to react at less vigorous condition. With alcohols, the functional group is -OH which makes it react. Best, Chris -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of JJJN Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2005 7:00 PM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol substitution How would you react the solution with the gas? Teoman Naskali wrote: Just a thoght bu would it be possible to use methane or propane or buthane instead of methanol? One would have to have some methanol for the methroxide but still... that would save a lot of money. Has anynone experimented? Any good reason why I shouldn't? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.o rg Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.or g Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.or g Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol substitution
Propane becomes liquid under pressure. Mehtane would be bubbled through the solution. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of JJJN Sent: Friday, October 28, 2005 5:00 AM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol substitution How would you react the solution with the gas? Teoman Naskali wrote: Just a thoght bu would it be possible to use methane or propane or buthane instead of methanol? One would have to have some methanol for the methroxide but still... that would save a lot of money. Has anynone experimented? Any good reason why I shouldn't? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.o rg Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.or g Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol substitution
I knew that somebody would have thought of it if it were possible. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of michael skinner Sent: Friday, October 28, 2005 2:24 AM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol substitution The reaction works by replacing one alcohol with another in Fats you have glycerol which has 3 alcohol groups which are attached to 3 fatty acids when you react an alcohol with a acid you get an ester it is call a transesterification because you substitute one alcohol for another since the alkanes you mentioned do not have an alcohol group you could not use them doing the transesterification reaction. if you could catalytically oxidize to form a alcohol ... (oxidize alkane think explosion or fire) them maybe. Original Message Follows From: Teoman Naskali [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol substitution Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 01:15:35 +0300 Just a thoght bu would it be possible to use methane or propane or buthane instead of methanol? One would have to have some methanol for the methroxide but still... that would save a lot of money. Has anynone experimented? Any good reason why I shouldn't? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.or g Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.or g Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol substitution
Howdy Teoman, bubbling thru the solution is all that it would do. It doesn't react under these conditions. Teoman Naskali wrote: Propane becomes liquid under pressure. Mehtane would be bubbled through the solution. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of JJJN Sent: Friday, October 28, 2005 5:00 AM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol substitution How would you react the solution with the gas? Teoman Naskali wrote: Just a thoght bu would it be possible to use methane or propane or buthane instead of methanol? One would have to have some methanol for the methroxide but still... that would save a lot of money. Has anynone experimented? Any good reason why I shouldn't? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.o rg Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.or g Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Bob Allen http://ozarker.org/bob Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves - Richard Feynman ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol substitution
Then how is NitoMethane made? Greg H. - Original Message - From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2005 10:35 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol substitution Howdy Teoman, bubbling thru the solution is all that it would do. It doesn't react under these conditions. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Methanol substitution
Just a thoght bu would it be possible to use methane or propane or buthane instead of methanol? One would have to have some methanol for the methroxide but still... that would save a lot of money. Has anynone experimented? Any good reason why I shouldn't? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
