subject:"Re\: real A.I."

2014-12-19 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List


On 12/18/2014 10:44 PM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List wrote:


*From:*meekerdb
*Sent:* Thursday, December 18, 2014 11:06 AM.

On 12/18/2014 10:16 AM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List wrote:

*From:*everything-list@googlegroups.com 
mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Jason Resch
*Sent:* Wednesday, December 17, 2014 12:25 AM

On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 6:07 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net
mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote:

On 12/16/2014 10:15 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote:

Hi Liz,

On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 7:51 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com
mailto:lizj...@gmail.com wrote:

What is funny - as well as sad and frightening - is the number of 
people here
who apparently don't believe in democracy, even in principle. Democracy 
is the
idea that we can elect people to do things for everyone else (the NHS,
conservation, social security, infrastructure, regulations, police, 
army science
etc etc).

All of the things you mention are run by unelected bureaucrats with long
careers, who see politicians come and go.

I highly recommend the British show Yes, Prime Minister! to learn 
about this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmXzGI0XP7M

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeF_o1Ss1NQ

Yet all I can see here is people saying that it doesn't work. I 
think the
truth is that it can be hijacked and THEN it doesn't work. The NHS 
(despite
everything) was one of the greatest achievements of the 20th 
century, after
all. And it was introduced by a government because of its beliefs 
and
principles.

The NHS is the sort of thing that should worry an Ecologist, because 
it's based
on infinite growth. Both the European system (based on infinite 
demographic
growth) and the Anglo (based on infinite economic growth). I also feel 
that it
serves mostly to fix a problem created by the government itself in a 
previous
regulatory wave. The barriers to competition in the practice of 
healthcare are
so high that it becomes unaffordable without insurance or subsidy.


Health care isn't well regulated by competition because the consumer is ill 
equipped
to judge the necessity or the quality of service and the most expensive 
service
tends to a one-time event for the consumer.

Worse, the healthcare industry has gotten the US government to pass laws 
making it
exempt from monopolistic practices, price fixing, charging people different 
amounts
for the same service, forbidding reimportation of medicine, restricting the 
number
of MRI machines in a given area. It's what leads to people being charged 
$60,000 for
two bottles of anti-venom that cost $200, or be charged $9,000 for a few 
stiches in
a finger. (these are real life examples
http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=229605 and not exaggerations). 
Experimental
clinics like The Surgery Center of Oklahoma, which cut out insurance 
companies, and
publishes their prices are 5-10X cheaper

http://reason.com/reasontv/2012/11/15/the-obamacare-revolt-oklahoma-doctors-fi
than what other hospitals charge (and about equivalent to prices charged in 
Japan
and India). If medical costs were this cheap, many people wouldn't need 
insurance to
pay for all but the most catastrophic of illnesses.

If hospitals were required to adhere to the same anti-trust rules as any 
other
business, to publish their prices and charge the same amount to everyone, 
we would
see about 80% of the cost of healthcare evaporate overnight. It's a sad 
state of
affairs when for every doctor in the country there are two people working 
in the
medical insurance industry.

I agree with that statement. It is not just hospitals but the monopolies 
that have
also been established on the practice of medicine and dentistry. Why do the 
American
Medical Association (AMA), and American Dental Association (ADA) – both 
private
(government sanctioned and enforced) guilds or trade organizations have 
such power
and control over who can practice medicine; over how medicine can be 
practiced?


Because when they didn't anybody could hang out a shingle and claim to be doctor and 
there were quacks everywhere pushing patent medicine and bleeding people (literally).


Sure… but how does that justify giving a guild – e.g. the AMA – a monopoly over the 
issue of licenses to practice medicine? Why not a state body for example. Why a monopoly 
private trade association?




?? Medical licenses in the U.S. are issued by states.





MDs in the US make on average twice as much money as MDs in other OECD countries – such 
as Germany -- for example.



In Germany, as I understand it, insurance companies bid to insure classes of workers and 
they then

RE: real A.I.

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of meekerdb
Sent: Friday, December 19, 2014 10:53 AM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: real A.I.

On 12/18/2014 10:44 PM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List wrote:

From: meekerdb
Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2014 11:06 AM.

On 12/18/2014 10:16 AM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List wrote:

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Jason Resch
Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2014 12:25 AM

On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 6:07 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:

On 12/16/2014 10:15 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote:

Hi Liz,

On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 7:51 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: 

What is funny - as well as sad and frightening - is the number of people here 
who apparently don't believe in democracy, even in principle. Democracy is the 
idea that we can elect people to do things for everyone else (the NHS, 
conservation, social security, infrastructure, regulations, police, army 
science etc etc).

All of the things you mention are run by unelected bureaucrats with long 
careers, who see politicians come and go.

I highly recommend the British show Yes, Prime Minister! to learn about this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmXzGI0XP7M

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeF_o1Ss1NQ

Yet all I can see here is people saying that it doesn't work. I think the truth 
is that it can be hijacked and THEN it doesn't work. The NHS (despite 
everything) was one of the greatest achievements of the 20th century, after 
all. And it was introduced by a government because of its beliefs and 
principles.

The NHS is the sort of thing that should worry an Ecologist, because it's based 
on infinite growth. Both the European system (based on infinite demographic 
growth) and the Anglo (based on infinite economic growth). I also feel that it 
serves mostly to fix a problem created by the government itself in a previous 
regulatory wave. The barriers to competition in the practice of healthcare are 
so high that it becomes unaffordable without insurance or subsidy. 

Health care isn't well regulated by competition because the consumer is ill 
equipped to judge the necessity or the quality of service and the most 
expensive service tends to a one-time event for the consumer. 

Worse, the healthcare industry has gotten the US government to pass laws making 
it exempt from monopolistic practices, price fixing, charging people different 
amounts for the same service, forbidding reimportation of medicine, restricting 
the number of MRI machines in a given area. It's what leads to people being 
charged $60,000 for two bottles of anti-venom that cost $200, or be charged 
$9,000 for a few stiches in a finger. (these are real life examples 
http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=229605  and not exaggerations).  
Experimental clinics like The Surgery Center of Oklahoma, which cut out 
insurance companies, and publishes their prices are 5-10X cheaper 
http://reason.com/reasontv/2012/11/15/the-obamacare-revolt-oklahoma-doctors-fi
  than what other hospitals charge (and about equivalent to prices charged in 
Japan and India). If medical costs were this cheap, many people wouldn't need 
insurance to pay for all but the most catastrophic of illnesses.

If hospitals were required to adhere to the same anti-trust rules as any other 
business, to publish their prices and charge the same amount to everyone, we 
would see about 80% of the cost of healthcare evaporate overnight. It's a sad 
state of affairs when for every doctor in the country there are two people 
working in the medical insurance industry.

I agree with that statement. It is not just hospitals but the monopolies that 
have also been established on the practice of medicine and dentistry. Why do 
the American Medical Association (AMA), and American Dental Association (ADA) – 
both private (government sanctioned and enforced) guilds or trade organizations 
have such power and control over who can practice medicine; over how medicine 
can be practiced? 

Because when they didn't anybody could hang out a shingle and claim to be 
doctor and there were quacks everywhere pushing patent medicine and bleeding 
people (literally).

Sure… but how does that justify giving a guild – e.g. the AMA – a monopoly over 
the issue of licenses to practice medicine? Why not a state body for example. 
Why a monopoly private trade association?

?? Medical licenses in the U.S. are issued by states.

Technically true perhaps, but both the AAMC and ACGME (the agencies I believe 
you refer to) act in the private interest of the AMA, and are only 
quasi-governmental in that they seem to have enough influence to have 
government regulations bent to their will. The members of these boards are 
usually in the medical field, and also AMA members.

MDs in the US make on average twice as much

Re: real A.I.

2014-12-19 Thread Kim Jones



Kim Jones B. Mus. GDTL

Email:   kimjo...@ozemail.com.au
 kmjco...@icloud.com
Mobile: 0450 963 719
Phone:  02 93894239
Web: http://www.eportfolio.kmjcommp.com


I'm not saying there aren't a lot of dangerous people out there. I am saying a 
lot of them are in government - Russell Brand

 

 On 20 Dec 2014, at 4:37 am, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote:
 
 
 On 19 Dec 2014, at 16:13, Alberto G. Corona wrote:
 
 I dont think that democracy can clear the bastardized things that she 
 himself generates. Au contraire, Democracy legitimate them in a more 
 perverse way
 
 
 It is not the same to live under your Lord as Lord that to live under your 
 representants democratically chosen. It is not the same to be opressed 
 by someone recognizable as a concrete person against which you can at least 
 fight coaligated with others than to live oppressed by an impersonal 
 burocratic structure where you don´t know who decides what. and therefore do 
 not know who to fight against. It is not the same for a Lord that he is 
 responsible of what happens in the face of the people than a democratic lord 
 whose responsibility is diffuminated in a network of power so that no one 
 accept any final responsibility.
 
 It is not the same to be a Lord whose children will inherit the political 
 power or else will be killed depending on the scrutiny of society than to be 
 the member of a opaque network that exploit the state for the benefit of the 
 political caste system. 
 
 Definitively, the democratic legitimation permits a more perfect tyranny, 
 where no one know for sure who has the power. The are not by no means the 
 ones that change power every four years, but a permanent power structure 
 that  control the mass media and the democratic representants
 
 I agree partially with you. But I think this describes the state of a sick 
 democracy, if not a dead democracy. So, yes, democracies are living beings, 
 fragile, which can be perverted and lead to tyrannies. That is even the case 
 today, with a tyranny of special corporate monopolistic interests which 
 disrupted the condition 1 of a (sane) democracy: the separation of power. 
 
 OK, we must find the cause and correct it. In a non democracy, we might need 
 to wait for a revolution before. In a democracy which is not yet entirely 
 rotten, I can write books and suggest ideas.
 
 We must not confuse the system well alert and valiant, and the system when 
 sick. It would be like saying that the blood cells fuels the cancer, when it 
 is just the cancer cells which pervert the bloods cells.
 
 Bruno
 
 
 
 
 
 2014-12-19 13:42 GMT+01:00 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be:
 
 
 On 18 Dec 2014, at 14:45, Alberto G. Corona wrote:
 
 Probably the only natural government, the one that does not need an 
 ideological legitimation, is the feudal system. And all the rest tend to 
 reproduce it in a bastardized way.
 
 I would say that democracy reproduce it, but with some hope of changing the 
 bastard things when they come up.
 
 
 
 
 That means that wathever the formal gobernment, the human nature tend 
 towards a feudal system of loyalities, towards persons and families rather 
 than a loyality to depersonalized institutions. These loyalities can help 
 or cans subvert the formal ldemocratic regime.
 
   That is why the democratic regimes need a form of cult to the founders 
 of the democracy, or else, a monarchy that embodies the loyalities and 
 canalize that loyality from the king to the democratic regime sanctioned 
 by him. For the same reason, the republican democracies need the cult to 
 some withened political figures that symbolize their values. 
 
 That may or may not work. Some of these loyalities can destroy the formal 
 regime or, more frequently can corrupt or undermine it, so that the formal 
 system hides the real one, which makes use of the formal system for their 
 own purposes. Since this real regime is hidden, it adopt a form of corrupt 
 system, wheren the lawyers, police, media etc don´t execute what the 
 formal law tells but what is adequeate for the hidden loyality system. 
 
 But that is not a reason to directly implement the feudal system. democracy 
 are not perfect, but they are the implementation of a system which allows 
 changes and corrections, when it works sufficiently well. If not, it means 
 the system is no more democratic, and we have to start a revolution again.
 
 Bruno
 
 
 Normally this last one is the real regime that operates in every so called 
 democracy
 
 2014-12-18 11:37 GMT+01:00 Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com:
 
 
 
 On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 11:25 AM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote:
 Democracy is the worst system of government ever invented - apart from 
 all the others.
 
 Winston Churchill
 
 So why didn't he revolt against his own country's unelected sovereigns? 
 The fellow was full of contradictions:
 
 The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with 
 the average voter.

Re: real A.I.

2014-12-19 Thread Kim Jones

Democracy is rotten to the core and always was. Democracy represents the 
greatest and most perverse failure of the human imagination possible. Democracy 
enshrines argument and warefare as the only way forward in any situation where 
values are competing. Attack and defence are the only buttons and levers that 
democracy can pres or pull. The difference between democracy and other systems 
is merely cosmetic. All human political systems are founded on the 
hunter-gatherer mentality of protect our tribe from other tribes and there is 
quite simply no further vision. Humans cannot escape their warlike nature with 
clever intellectual sleight-of-hand. Governments are hampered by opposition 
parties who see it as their sole responsibility to oppose everything the 
government proposes, thereby bogging the process of change and improvement down 
in endless squabbling and self-righteous justification. In other words, the 
best system we have is one where you and I walk down the road side by side 
and at every pace I try to kick you in the kneecap and you try to kick me in 
the kneecap. The absurdity of such a system is mind-numbingly obvious. Humans 
may finally realise that we would be maybe four, maybe five hundred years ahead 
of where we are now for the price of the effort involved in devising a system 
of parallel thinking to replace the global trait of adversarial thinking. 

I'm not going to hold my breath though, waiting for this to happen. Humans are 
never open to the idea that their biggest flaw is the design-deficient nature 
of human thinking. Technology, science and art are the only games humans play 
well. All of ther games played by humans end in tragedy and bloodshed.

Kim Jones

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Re: real A.I.

2014-12-19 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List


On 12/18/2014 11:58 PM, Telmo Menezes wrote:



On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 8:08 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net 
mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote:


On 12/18/2014 2:37 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote:



On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 11:25 AM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com
mailto:lizj...@gmail.com wrote:

Democracy is the worst system of government ever invented - apart from 
all the
others.

Winston Churchill


So why didn't he revolt against his own country's unelected sovereigns?


Because they were simply symbolic and didn't have any political power.  Yet 
they had
the symbolic power of tradition, which Churchill appreciated and used.


People keep saying that, but the reality seems to be that the Queen retains some quite 
important powers, she just choses not to use them:


http://royalcentral.co.uk/blogs/explanation/what-are-the-queens-powers-22069

Even worse perhaps is the House of Lords:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Lords

They have inherited positions, religious positions and, again, some quite real 
powers.



Bertrand Russell tried to resign his title when his older brother died so that he could 
run for office in the House of Commons, because the House of Lords has no power.  
Tradition can eliminate power as well as bestow it.


Brent

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Re: real A.I.

2014-12-19 Thread LizR

Why didn't Churchill revolt?

Well...

He was a Tory and born into the nobility, part of an illustrious family, as
well as being the Prime Minister who led the UK to victory against the
Nazis. That probably made him feel that *he* was running the country, not
the Queen -- as in fact he was from 1940 to 1945 (and again a few years
later). He was also a respected historian and writer - he won a Nobel for
Literature (and he was a rubbish artist, rather like Prince Charles and
Adolf Hitler). So he was a powerful, lauded and much respected member of
the establishment, and revolt was probably not much on his mind. (But if it
was I suppose he could have subverted the system from within...)

I think the most revolutionary he got was making witty remarks.

None of which actually makes him wrong about democracy. You can say
something that is true and still fail to act on it (I do every time I use
the car...)

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Re: real A.I.

  From: Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com
 To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com 
 Sent: Friday, December 19, 2014 7:13 AM
 Subject: Re: real A.I.

I dont think that democracy can clear the bastardized things that she himself 
generates. Au contraire, Democracy legitimate them in a more perverse way

It is not the same to live under your Lord as Lord that to live under your 
representants democratically chosen. It is not the same to be opressed by 
someone recognizable as a concrete person against which you can at least 
fight coaligated with others than to live oppressed by an impersonal 
burocratic structure where you don´t know who decides what. and therefore do 
not know who to fight against. It is not the same for a Lord that he is 
responsible of what happens in the face of the people than a democratic lord 
whose responsibility is diffuminated in a network of power so that no one 
accept any final responsibility.
You fall into the error of conflating the system of aristocratic rule -- e.g. 
the ancien regime -- with specific identifiable persons who filled roles in 
this system. Killing the king would do nothing to end the system of aristocracy 
that the king represented. Aristocracy is as faceless and impersonal as any 
other system. It is not the faces that come and go in the corridors of power -- 
of any system -- that matters; it is the nature of the system itself that is 
germane.

It is not the same to be a Lord whose children will inherit the political 
power or else will be killed depending on the scrutiny of society than to be 
the member of a opaque network that exploit the state for the benefit of the 
political caste system. 
A lord can be killed... and so what, another Lord takes their place. What, 
exactly has changed? Nothing. The aristocracy never did depend on the health 
and well being of any given ruler or even dynasty of rulers. Rulers came and 
went, states rose and fell and dynasties arose and disappeared -- the system 
itself is a very different animal than the individual animals who occupied 
positions of power within these systems.

 Definitively, the democratic legitimation permits a more perfect tyranny, 
 where no one know for sure who has the power. The are not by no means the 
 ones that change power every four years, but a permanent power structure 
 that  control the mass media and the democratic representants

The *system*  of aristocratic rule was itself a permanent power structure (and 
still is in many parts of the world), until the Age of Enlightenment. It was a 
system just as much as democracy is a system.-Chris

2014-12-19 13:42 GMT+01:00 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be:

On 18 Dec 2014, at 14:45, Alberto G. Corona wrote:

Probably the only natural government, the one that does not need an ideological 
legitimation, is the feudal system. And all the rest tend to reproduce it in a 
bastardized way.

I would say that democracy reproduce it, but with some hope of changing the 
bastard things when they come up.

That means that wathever the formal gobernment, the human nature tend towards a 
feudal system of loyalities, towards persons and families rather than a 
loyality to depersonalized institutions. These loyalities can help or cans 
subvert the formal ldemocratic regime.

  That is why the democratic regimes need a form of cult to the founders of the 
democracy, or else, a monarchy that embodies the loyalities and canalize that 
loyality from the king to the democratic regime sanctioned by him. For the same 
reason, the republican democracies need the cult to some withened political 
figures that symbolize their values. 

That may or may not work. Some of these loyalities can destroy the formal 
regime or, more frequently can corrupt or undermine it, so that the formal 
system hides the real one, which makes use of the formal system for their own 
purposes. Since this real regime is hidden, it adopt a form of corrupt system, 
wheren the lawyers, police, media etc don´t execute what the formal law tells 
but what is adequeate for the hidden loyality system.  

But that is not a reason to directly implement the feudal system. democracy are 
not perfect, but they are the implementation of a system which allows changes 
and corrections, when it works sufficiently well. If not, it means the system 
is no more democratic, and we have to start a revolution again.
Bruno

Normally this last one is the real regime that operates in every so called 
democracy

2014-12-18 11:37 GMT+01:00 Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com:

On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 11:25 AM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote:
Democracy is the worst system of government ever invented - apart from all the 
others.
Winston Churchill

So why didn't he revolt against his own country's unelected sovereigns? The 
fellow was full of contradictions:
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the 
average voter.
Winston Churchill

 -- 
 You received

Re: real A.I.


On 12/19/2014 11:33 AM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List wrote:


*From:*everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] *On 
Behalf Of *meekerdb

*Sent:* Friday, December 19, 2014 10:53 AM
*To:* everything-list@googlegroups.com
*Subject:* Re: real A.I.

On 12/18/2014 10:44 PM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List wrote:

*From:*meekerdb
*Sent:* Thursday, December 18, 2014 11:06 AM.

On 12/18/2014 10:16 AM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List wrote:

*From:*everything-list@googlegroups.com
mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Jason Resch
*Sent:* Wednesday, December 17, 2014 12:25 AM


On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 6:07 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net
mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote:

On 12/16/2014 10:15 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote:

Hi Liz,

On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 7:51 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com
mailto:lizj...@gmail.com wrote:

What is funny - as well as sad and frightening - is the number of 
people
here who apparently don't believe in democracy, even in principle. 
Democracy
is the idea that we can elect people to do things for everyone else 
(the
NHS, conservation, social security, infrastructure, regulations, 
police,
army science etc etc).

All of the things you mention are run by unelected bureaucrats with 
long
careers, who see politicians come and go.

I highly recommend the British show Yes, Prime Minister! to learn 
about this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmXzGI0XP7M

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeF_o1Ss1NQ

Yet all I can see here is people saying that it doesn't work. I 
think
the truth is that it can be hijacked and THEN it doesn't work. 
The NHS
(despite everything) was one of the greatest achievements of 
the 20th
century, after all. And it was introduced by a government 
because of its
beliefs and principles.

The NHS is the sort of thing that should worry an Ecologist, 
because it's
based on infinite growth. Both the European system (based on 
infinite
demographic growth) and the Anglo (based on infinite economic 
growth). I
also feel that it serves mostly to fix a problem created by the 
government
itself in a previous regulatory wave. The barriers to competition 
in the
practice of healthcare are so high that it becomes unaffordable 
without
insurance or subsidy.


Health care isn't well regulated by competition because the consumer is 
ill
equipped to judge the necessity or the quality of service and the most 
expensive
service tends to a one-time event for the consumer.

Worse, the healthcare industry has gotten the US government to pass 
laws making
it exempt from monopolistic practices, price fixing, charging people 
different
amounts for the same service, forbidding reimportation of medicine, 
restricting
the number of MRI machines in a given area. It's what leads to people 
being
charged $60,000 for two bottles of anti-venom that cost $200, or be 
charged
$9,000 for a few stiches in a finger. (these are real life examples
http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=229605 and not exaggerations).
Experimental clinics like The Surgery Center of Oklahoma, which cut out
insurance companies, and publishes their prices are 5-10X cheaper

http://reason.com/reasontv/2012/11/15/the-obamacare-revolt-oklahoma-doctors-fi
than what other hospitals charge (and about equivalent to prices 
charged in
Japan and India). If medical costs were this cheap, many people 
wouldn't need
insurance to pay for all but the most catastrophic of illnesses.

If hospitals were required to adhere to the same anti-trust rules as 
any other
business, to publish their prices and charge the same amount to 
everyone, we
would see about 80% of the cost of healthcare evaporate overnight. It's 
a sad
state of affairs when for every doctor in the country there are two 
people
working in the medical insurance industry.

I agree with that statement. It is not just hospitals but the 
monopolies that
have also been established on the practice of medicine and dentistry. 
Why do the
American Medical Association (AMA), and American Dental Association 
(ADA) – both
private (government sanctioned and enforced) guilds or trade 
organizations have
such power and control over who can practice medicine; over how 
medicine can be
practiced?


Because when they didn't anybody could hang out a shingle and claim to be 
doctor and
there were

Re: real A.I.

2014-12-19 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List


On 12/19/2014 12:47 PM, Kim Jones wrote:

Democracy is rotten to the core and always was. Democracy represents the 
greatest and most perverse failure of the human imagination possible. Democracy 
enshrines argument and warefare as the only way forward in any situation where 
values are competing.


It doesn't enshrine them, it recognizes them and provides a way to mitigate their worst 
effects.  Other systems fantasize benevolent dictators or angelic citizens.


Brent

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Re: real A.I.

2014-12-19 Thread LizR

And, no matter what democracy enshrines, that in itself doesn't show that
it isn't the best available system. With sufficient checks and balances,
and a system of representation that allows for actual representation and
enfranchisement (rather than, say, a choice of 2 near-identical corporate
backed suits), it can still be the best system, imho.

To expand slightly on what Brent says below, you have to beware of a system
with (as in the cartoon) a bit where then a miracle happens - the whole
process needs to work without expecting something that goes against human
nature at some point (benevolent dictator etc). In fact that makes it a
form of science, come to think of it.


On 20 December 2014 at 12:09, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:

  On 12/19/2014 12:47 PM, Kim Jones wrote:

 Democracy is rotten to the core and always was. Democracy represents the 
 greatest and most perverse failure of the human imagination possible. 
 Democracy enshrines argument and warefare as the only way forward in any 
 situation where values are competing.


 It doesn't enshrine them, it recognizes them and provides a way to
 mitigate their worst effects.  Other systems fantasize benevolent dictators
 or angelic citizens.

 Brent

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Re: real A.I.

  From: meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net
 To: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
 Sent: Friday, December 19, 2014 2:58 PM
 Subject: Re: real A.I.

  On 12/19/2014 11:33 AM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List wrote:

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1.0in;}#yiv4699829271 div.yiv4699829271WordSection1 {}--          From: 
everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On 
Behalf Of meekerdb
 Sent: Friday, December 19, 2014 10:53 AM
 To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
 Subject: Re: real A.I.   On 12/18/2014 10:44 PM, 'Chris de Morsella' via 
Everything List wrote:  
       From: meekerdb
 Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2014 11:06 AM.On 12/18/2014 10:16 AM, 'Chris 
de Morsella' via Everything List wrote:  
     From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Jason Resch
 Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2014 12:25 AM

         On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 6:07 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net 
wrote:   On 12/16/2014 10:15 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote:  
  Hi Liz,     On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 7:51 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote:  
 What is funny - as well as sad and frightening - is the number of people here 
who apparently  don't believe in democracy, even in principle. Democracy is the 
idea that we can elect people to do things for everyone else (the NHS, 
conservation, social security, infrastructure, regulations, police, army 
science etc etc).       All of the things you mention are run by unelected 
bureaucrats with long careers, who see politicians  come and go.       I highly 
recommend the British show Yes, Prime Minister! to learn about this:   
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmXzGI0XP7M   
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeF_o1Ss1NQ      
  Yet all I can see here is people saying that it doesn't work. I think the 
truth is that it can  be hijacked and THEN it doesn't work. The NHS (despite 
everything) was one of the greatest achievements of the 20th century, after 
all. And it was introduced by a government because of  its beliefs and 
principles.  
      The NHS is the sort of thing that should worry an Ecologist, because it's 
based on infinite growth.  Both the European system (based on infinite 
demographic growth) and the Anglo (based on infinite economic growth). I also 
feel that it serves mostly to fix a problem created by the government itself in 
a previous regulatory wave. The barriers to competition in the practice of  
healthcare are so high that it becomes unaffordable without insurance or 
subsidy.  

 Health care isn't well regulated by competition because the consumer is ill 
equipped to judge the necessity or the quality of service and the most 
expensive service tends to a one-time event for the consumer.    Worse, the 
healthcare industry has gotten the US government to pass laws making it exempt 
from monopolistic practices, price fixing, charging people different amounts 
for the same service, forbidding reimportation of medicine, restricting  the 
number of MRI machines in a given area. It's what leads to people being charged 
$60,000 for two bottles of anti-venom that cost $200, or be charged $9,000 for 
a few stiches in a finger. (these are real life examples and not 
exaggerations).  Experimental clinics like The Surgery Center of Oklahoma, 
which cut out insurance companies, and publishes their prices are 5-10X cheaper 
than what other hospitals charge (and about equivalent to prices charged in 
Japan and India). If medical costs were this cheap

Re: real A.I.

2014-12-19 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

  From: meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net
 To: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
 Sent: Friday, December 19, 2014 3:09 PM
 Subject: Re: real A.I.

  On 12/19/2014 12:47 PM, Kim Jones wrote:

 Democracy is rotten to the core and always was. Democracy represents the 
greatest and most perverse failure of the human imagination possible. Democracy 
enshrines argument and warefare as the only way forward in any situation where 
values are competing. 

It doesn't enshrine them, it recognizes them and provides a way to mitigate 
their worst effects.  
Other systems fantasize benevolent dictators or angelic citizens.
And end up with mad kings; finding themselves living under naked unalloyed 
tyranny... where to argue is to lose one's head -- literally.-Chris

 Brent
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Re: real A.I.

2014-12-19 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List


On 12/19/2014 3:36 PM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List wrote:
How is Comcast -- to take one example *not* functionally a monopoly? It is a monopoly 
where I live; I have no other cable provider I can choose from (DirectTV is not cable).


No but it's a competitor.  Why should you care how the signal arrives at your home.  I 
have DirecTV and I like it.  I switched from Verizon cable.


For me and for millions of people in similar captive markets Comcast is a monopoly. 
Comcast also controls the lion share of all media content produced and distributed in 
the US. In sector after sector of our economy politically well connected vested 
interests control by far the largest portion of total market share.
A free market needs to be protected from concentration of power in order to remain free; 
otherwise it will soon enough become captivated by colluding interests.


I'm not a lawyer, so I can't really address the legal definition of monopoly, but I very 
much doubt that it means having only one provider of service X. Suppose you lived in a 
small town and there was only one doctor; would that make him a monopoly?  I'm sure 
Comcast doesn't have the lion's share of media content (the lion's share means ALL). And 
just having MOST of some market doesn't make you a monopoly (c.f. Microsoft) either.  I 
think the law also recognizes natural monopolies such as phone companies but I'm not up 
on the legal definitions and cases.  I know a DC lawyer/lobbyist whose clients are small 
communications companies.  His main job is watching legislation to see that corporations 
like Comcast or Timewarner aren't sneaking in some entrance barrier or regulatory 
obstruction that would disadvantage small communications companies.


Brent

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Re: real A.I.

 I'm sure Comcast doesn't have the lion's share of media content (the lion's 
share means ALL).
It does not own everything, but it certainly owns a significant portion of the 
American media pie. Here is a list of what Comcast currently owns -- this list 
does not include any additional media properties it will end up controlling if 
the Time Warner merger goes through. 

Here's The Insanely Long List Of Things Comcast Would Own After Buying Time 
Warner Cable
TelevisionNBC Television NetworkNBC EntertainmentNBC NewsNBC Sport 
GroupUniversal Television (UTV)Universal Cable ProductionsNBC Universal 
Domestic Television DistributionNBCUniversal International Television 
Distribution
NBC Local Media DivisionNBC New York (WNBC)NBC Los Angeles (KNBC)NBC Chicago 
(WMAQ)NBC Philadelphia (WCAU)NBC Bay Area (KNTV)NBC Dallas/Fort Worth (KXAS)NBC 
Washington (WRC)NBC Miami (WTVJ)NBC San Diego (KNSD)NBC Connecticut (WVIT)NBC 
EverywhereLX TVSkycastle Entertainment
TelemundoKVEA (Los Angeles)WNJU (New York)WSCV (Miami)KTMD (Houston)WSNS 
(Chicago)KXTX (Dallas/Fort Worth)KVDA (San Antonio)KSTS (San Francisco/San 
Jose)KTAZ (Phoenix)KNSO (Fresno)KDEN (Denver)KBLR (Las Vegas)WNEU 
(Boston/Merrimack)KHRR (Tucson)WKAQ (Puerto Rico)KWHY (Los Angeles) 
(Independent)
Television ChannelsBravoChillerCNBCCNBC WorldComcast Charter Sports 
SoutheastComcast Sports GroupComcast SportsNet Bay AreaComcast SportsNet 
CaliforniaComcast SportsNet ChicagoComcast SportsNet HoustonComcast SportsNet 
Mid-AtlanticComcast SportsNet New EnglandComcast SportsNet NorthwestComcast 
SportsNet PhiladelhpiaSNYThe Mtn.-Mountain West Sports NetworkCSSComcast Sports 
SouthwestNew England Cable News (Manages)NBC Sports NetworkThe Comcast 
NetworkE! Entertainment TelevisionG4Golf ChannelMSNBCmun2Oxygen 
MediaClooSproutThe Style NetworkSyfyUniversal HDUSA NetworkThe Weather Channel 
CompaniesSyfy Universal (Universal Networks International)Diva Universal 
(Universal Networks International)Studio Universal (Universal Networks 
International)Universal Channel (Universal Networks International)13th Street 
Universal (Universal Networks International)Movies 24 (Universal Networks 
International)Hallmark Channel (non-U.S.) (Universal Networks 
International)KidsCo (Interest) (Universal Networks International)
FilmUniversal PicturesFocus FeaturesUniversal Studios Home Entertainment
Parks and ResortsUniversal Parks and Resorts
Digital MediaDailyCandyFandangoHulu (32%)iVillageNBC.comCNBC DigitalPlaxo
CommunicationsXFINITY TVXFINITY InternetXFINITY Voice
Sports ManagementComcast-SpectatorPhiladelphia FlyersWells Fargo CenterGlobal 
Spectrum (Public Assembly Management)Ovations Food ServicesFront Row Marketing 
ServicesPaciolanNew Era Tickets (ComcastTIX)Flyers Skate Zone
OtherComcast Ventures, which is invested in numerous companies.
And now onto Time Warner Cable:
Local channelsTime Warner Cable News 
Regional Sports NetworksMetro SportsTime Warner Cable SportsTime Warner Cable 
SportsNet Time Warner Cable DeportesTWC Sports 32SNY 
OtherAdelphia — cable television company in PANaviSite — cloud and hosting 
services companyInsight Communications — cable operatorDukeNet Communications 
—Fiber optic networkTime Warner Cable InternetTime Warner Cable Media 
(advertising)

  From: meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net
 To: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
 Sent: Friday, December 19, 2014 4:37 PM
 Subject: Re: real A.I.
   
 On 12/19/2014 3:36 PM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List wrote:
  
 How is Comcast -- to take one example *not* functionally a monopoly? It is a 
monopoly where I live; I have no other cable provider I can choose from 
(DirectTV is not cable).  
 
 No but it's a competitor.  Why should you care how the signal arrives at your 
home.  I have DirecTV and I like it.  I switched from Verizon cable.
 
 
 For me and for millions of people in similar captive markets Comcast is a 
monopoly. Comcast also controls the lion share of all media content produced 
and distributed in the US. In sector after sector of our economy politically 
well connected vested interests control by far the largest portion of total 
market share. A free market needs to be protected from concentration of power 
in order to remain free; otherwise it will soon enough become captivated by 
colluding interests. 
 
 I'm not a lawyer, so I can't really address the legal definition of monopoly, 
but I very much doubt that it means having only one provider of service X.  
Suppose you lived in a small town and there was only one doctor; would that 
make him a monopoly?  I'm sure Comcast doesn't have the lion's share of media 
content (the lion's share means ALL). And just having MOST of some market 
doesn't make you a monopoly (c.f.  Microsoft) either.  I think the law also 
recognizes natural monopolies such as phone companies but I'm not up on the 
legal definitions and cases.  I know a DC lawyer/lobbyist whose clients are 
small communications companies.  His main job is watching

Re: real A.I.

2014-12-18 Thread LizR

Democracy is the worst system of government ever invented - apart from all
the others.

Winston Churchill

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Re: real A.I.

2014-12-18 Thread Telmo Menezes

On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 11:25 AM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote:

 Democracy is the worst system of government ever invented - apart from
 all the others.

 Winston Churchill


So why didn't he revolt against his own country's unelected sovereigns? The
fellow was full of contradictions:

The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the
average voter.

Winston Churchill


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Re: real A.I.

2014-12-18 Thread Alberto G. Corona

Probably the only natural government, the one that does not need an
ideological legitimation, is the feudal system. And all the rest tend to
reproduce it in a bastardized way.

That means that wathever the formal gobernment, the human nature tend
towards a feudal system of loyalities, towards persons and families rather
than a loyality to depersonalized institutions. These loyalities can help
or cans subvert the formal ldemocratic regime.

  That is why the democratic regimes need a form of cult to the founders of
the democracy, or else, a monarchy that embodies the loyalities and
canalize that loyality from the king to the democratic regime sanctioned by
him. For the same reason, the republican democracies need the cult to some
withened political figures that symbolize their values.

That may or may not work. Some of these loyalities can destroy the formal
regime or, more frequently can corrupt or undermine it, so that the formal
system hides the real one, which makes use of the formal system for their
own purposes. Since this real regime is hidden, it adopt a form of corrupt
system, wheren the lawyers, police, media etc don´t execute what the formal
law tells but what is adequeate for the hidden loyality system.

Normally this last one is the real regime that operates in every so called
democracy

2014-12-18 11:37 GMT+01:00 Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com:



 On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 11:25 AM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote:

 Democracy is the worst system of government ever invented - apart from
 all the others.

 Winston Churchill


 So why didn't he revolt against his own country's unelected sovereigns?
 The fellow was full of contradictions:

 The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with
 the average voter.

 Winston Churchill


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Re: real A.I.

2014-12-18 Thread Jason Resch

I think the National Initiative (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_initiative#National_Initiative_for_Democracy_.28USA.29
) is one of the most promising of proposed changes to the system of human
governance that I have seen.

I am also fond of the concept of an AItocracy: using open-source AI's to
judge and automatically make void any law that it determines to be
unconstitutional. The code, being open-source, can be re-run and verified
by anybody. (but we aren't quite there yet technologically (although
perhaps if the laws and constitution were written in Lojban it would be
easier).

Jason

On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 7:45 AM, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com
wrote:

Probably the only natural government, the one that does not need an
ideological legitimation, is the feudal system. And all the rest tend to
reproduce it in a bastardized way.

That means that wathever the formal gobernment, the human nature tend
towards a feudal system of loyalities, towards persons and families rather
than a loyality to depersonalized institutions. These loyalities can help
or cans subvert the formal ldemocratic regime.

That is why the democratic regimes need a form of cult to the founders
of the democracy, or else, a monarchy that embodies the loyalities and
canalize that loyality from the king to the democratic regime sanctioned by
him. For the same reason, the republican democracies need the cult to some
withened political figures that symbolize their values.

That may or may not work. Some of these loyalities can destroy the formal
regime or, more frequently can corrupt or undermine it, so that the formal
system hides the real one, which makes use of the formal system for their
own purposes. Since this real regime is hidden, it adopt a form of corrupt
system, wheren the lawyers, police, media etc don´t execute what the formal
law tells but what is adequeate for the hidden loyality system.

Normally this last one is the real regime that operates in every so called
democracy

2014-12-18 11:37 GMT+01:00 Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com:

On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 11:25 AM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote:

Democracy is the worst system of government ever invented - apart from
all the others.

Winston Churchill

So why didn't he revolt against his own country's unelected sovereigns?
The fellow was full of contradictions:

The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with
the average voter.

Winston Churchill

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RE: real A.I.

2014-12-18 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Jason Resch
Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2014 12:25 AM
To: Everything List
Subject: Re: real A.I.

On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 6:07 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:

On 12/16/2014 10:15 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote:

Hi Liz,

On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 7:51 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: 

What is funny - as well as sad and frightening - is the number of people here 
who apparently don't believe in democracy, even in principle. Democracy is the 
idea that we can elect people to do things for everyone else (the NHS, 
conservation, social security, infrastructure, regulations, police, army 
science etc etc).

All of the things you mention are run by unelected bureaucrats with long 
careers, who see politicians come and go.

I highly recommend the British show Yes, Prime Minister! to learn about this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmXzGI0XP7M

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeF_o1Ss1NQ

Yet all I can see here is people saying that it doesn't work. I think the truth 
is that it can be hijacked and THEN it doesn't work. The NHS (despite 
everything) was one of the greatest achievements of the 20th century, after 
all. And it was introduced by a government because of its beliefs and 
principles.

The NHS is the sort of thing that should worry an Ecologist, because it's based 
on infinite growth. Both the European system (based on infinite demographic 
growth) and the Anglo (based on infinite economic growth). I also feel that it 
serves mostly to fix a problem created by the government itself in a previous 
regulatory wave. The barriers to competition in the practice of healthcare are 
so high that it becomes unaffordable without insurance or subsidy. 

Health care isn't well regulated by competition because the consumer is ill 
equipped to judge the necessity or the quality of service and the most 
expensive service tends to a one-time event for the consumer. 

Worse, the healthcare industry has gotten the US government to pass laws making 
it exempt from monopolistic practices, price fixing, charging people different 
amounts for the same service, forbidding reimportation of medicine, restricting 
the number of MRI machines in a given area. It's what leads to people being 
charged $60,000 for two bottles of anti-venom that cost $200, or be charged 
$9,000 for a few stiches in a finger. (these are real life examples 
http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=229605  and not exaggerations).  
Experimental clinics like The Surgery Center of Oklahoma, which cut out 
insurance companies, and publishes their prices are 5-10X cheaper 
http://reason.com/reasontv/2012/11/15/the-obamacare-revolt-oklahoma-doctors-fi
  than what other hospitals charge (and about equivalent to prices charged in 
Japan and India). If medical costs were this cheap, many people wouldn't need 
insurance to pay for all but the most catastrophic of illnesses.

If hospitals were required to adhere to the same anti-trust rules as any other 
business, to publish their prices and charge the same amount to everyone, we 
would see about 80% of the cost of healthcare evaporate overnight. It's a sad 
state of affairs when for every doctor in the country there are two people 
working in the medical insurance industry.

I agree with that statement. It is not just hospitals but the monopolies that 
have also been established on the practice of medicine and dentistry. Why do 
the American Medical Association (AMA), and American Dental Association (ADA) – 
both private (government sanctioned and enforced) guilds or trade organizations 
have such power and control over who can practice medicine; over how medicine 
can be practiced? MDs in the US make on average twice as much money as MDs in 
other OECD countries – such as Germany -- for example.

-Chris

Jason

It's one of the several resource confiscation traps that have been emerging 
under crony capitalism.

What does that mean? 

I know, I know. You're going to say that lots of deaths have been prevented by 
these regulations. This is true. But how many deaths have been caused by poor 
or inexistent access to healthcare? 

In the U.S. it's been estimated as at least 40,000/yr.

How many have been caused by the glaciar pace of innovation imposed by such 
regulations? 

What innovation has been delayed by regulation?  thalidomide?  abortion pills?

By patents? People refuse to recognise that this trade-off exists.

I dream of flat guaranteed income based on a real currency (not the current 
pyramid schemes that we call Dollars or Euros). Possibly a cryptocurrency with 
a smart algorithm that hopefully cannot fall under the control of the bandits.

Isn't there already an effective guaranteed income in terms of food, shelter, 
health care.  I doubt people are allowed to starve or freeze or go without 
medical treatment.  Of course I would agree

Re: real A.I.

2014-12-18 Thread meekerdb

On 12/18/2014 10:16 AM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List wrote:

*From:*everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] *On
Behalf Of *Jason Resch

*Sent:* Wednesday, December 17, 2014 12:25 AM
*To:* Everything List
*Subject:* Re: real A.I.

On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 6:07 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net
mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote:

On 12/16/2014 10:15 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote:

Hi Liz,

On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 7:51 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com
mailto:lizj...@gmail.com
wrote:

All of the things you mention are run by unelected bureaucrats with long
careers,
who see politicians come and go.

I highly recommend the British show Yes, Prime Minister! to learn about
this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmXzGI0XP7M

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeF_o1Ss1NQ

Yet all I can see here is people saying that it doesn't work. I think
the truth
is that it can be hijacked and THEN it doesn't work. The NHS (despite
everything) was one of the greatest achievements of the 20th century,
after all.
And it was introduced by a government because of its beliefs and
principles.

The NHS is the sort of thing that should worry an Ecologist, because it's
based on
infinite growth. Both the European system (based on infinite demographic
growth) and
the Anglo (based on infinite economic growth). I also feel that it serves
mostly to
fix a problem created by the government itself in a previous regulatory
wave. The
barriers to competition in the practice of healthcare are so high that it
becomes
unaffordable without insurance or subsidy.

Health care isn't well regulated by competition because the consumer is ill equipped to
judge the necessity or the quality of service and the most expensive service tends to a
one-time event for the consumer.

Worse, the healthcare industry has gotten the US government to pass laws making it
exempt from monopolistic practices, price fixing, charging people different amounts for
the same service, forbidding reimportation of medicine, restricting the number of MRI
machines in a given area. It's what leads to people being charged $60,000 for two
bottles of anti-venom that cost $200, or be charged $9,000 for a few stiches in a
finger. (these are real life examples http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=229605
and not exaggerations). Experimental clinics like The Surgery Center of Oklahoma, which
cut out insurance companies, and publishes their prices are 5-10X cheaper
http://reason.com/reasontv/2012/11/15/the-obamacare-revolt-oklahoma-doctors-fi than
what other hospitals charge (and about equivalent to prices charged in Japan and India).
If medical costs were this cheap, many people wouldn't need insurance to pay for all but
the most catastrophic of illnesses.

If hospitals were required to adhere to the same anti-trust rules as any other business,
to publish their prices and charge the same amount to everyone, we would see about 80%
of the cost of healthcare evaporate overnight. It's a sad state of affairs when for
every doctor in the country there are two people working in the medical insurance industry.

I agree with that statement. It is not just hospitals but the monopolies that have also
been established on the practice of medicine and dentistry. Why do the American Medical
Association (AMA), and American Dental Association (ADA) – both private (government
sanctioned and enforced) guilds or trade organizations have such power and control over
who can practice medicine; over how medicine can be practiced?

Because when they didn't anybody could hang out a shingle and claim to be doctor and there
were quacks everywhere pushing patent medicine and bleeding people (literally).

MDs in the US make on average twice as much money as MDs in other OECD countries – such
as Germany -- for example.

In Germany, as I understand it, insurance companies bid to insure classes of workers and
they then negotiate to control doctors fees. Most of the OECD countries directly regulate
or pay health care fees. Of all the OECD countries the U.S. has the most free-market
system, and the most expensive health care. It shows the fallacy of the libertarian
dream. When everyone pursues self-interest the winners will be those who form coalitions
whose objective is to eliminate other coalitions.

Brent

Re: real A.I.

2014-12-18 Thread meekerdb


On 12/18/2014 2:37 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote:



On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 11:25 AM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com mailto:lizj...@gmail.com 
wrote:


Democracy is the worst system of government ever invented - apart from all 
the
others.

Winston Churchill


So why didn't he revolt against his own country's unelected sovereigns?


Because they were simply symbolic and didn't have any political power.  Yet they had the 
symbolic power of tradition, which Churchill appreciated and used.


Brent

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RE: real A.I.

2014-12-18 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

 

 

From: meekerdb
Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2014 11:06 AM.

On 12/18/2014 10:16 AM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List wrote:

 

 

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Jason Resch
Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2014 12:25 AM



 

 

On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 6:07 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:

On 12/16/2014 10:15 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote:

Hi Liz,

 

On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 7:51 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: 

What is funny - as well as sad and frightening - is the number of people here 
who apparently don't believe in democracy, even in principle. Democracy is the 
idea that we can elect people to do things for everyone else (the NHS, 
conservation, social security, infrastructure, regulations, police, army 
science etc etc).

 

All of the things you mention are run by unelected bureaucrats with long 
careers, who see politicians come and go.

 

I highly recommend the British show Yes, Prime Minister! to learn about this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmXzGI0XP7M

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeF_o1Ss1NQ

 

Yet all I can see here is people saying that it doesn't work. I think the truth 
is that it can be hijacked and THEN it doesn't work. The NHS (despite 
everything) was one of the greatest achievements of the 20th century, after 
all. And it was introduced by a government because of its beliefs and 
principles.

 

The NHS is the sort of thing that should worry an Ecologist, because it's based 
on infinite growth. Both the European system (based on infinite demographic 
growth) and the Anglo (based on infinite economic growth). I also feel that it 
serves mostly to fix a problem created by the government itself in a previous 
regulatory wave. The barriers to competition in the practice of healthcare are 
so high that it becomes unaffordable without insurance or subsidy. 


Health care isn't well regulated by competition because the consumer is ill 
equipped to judge the necessity or the quality of service and the most 
expensive service tends to a one-time event for the consumer. 

 

Worse, the healthcare industry has gotten the US government to pass laws making 
it exempt from monopolistic practices, price fixing, charging people different 
amounts for the same service, forbidding reimportation of medicine, restricting 
the number of MRI machines in a given area. It's what leads to people being 
charged $60,000 for two bottles of anti-venom that cost $200, or be charged 
$9,000 for a few stiches in a finger. (these are real life examples 
http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=229605  and not exaggerations).  
Experimental clinics like The Surgery Center of Oklahoma, which cut out 
insurance companies, and publishes their prices are 5-10X cheaper 
http://reason.com/reasontv/2012/11/15/the-obamacare-revolt-oklahoma-doctors-fi
  than what other hospitals charge (and about equivalent to prices charged in 
Japan and India). If medical costs were this cheap, many people wouldn't need 
insurance to pay for all but the most catastrophic of illnesses.

If hospitals were required to adhere to the same anti-trust rules as any other 
business, to publish their prices and charge the same amount to everyone, we 
would see about 80% of the cost of healthcare evaporate overnight. It's a sad 
state of affairs when for every doctor in the country there are two people 
working in the medical insurance industry.

 

I agree with that statement. It is not just hospitals but the monopolies that 
have also been established on the practice of medicine and dentistry. Why do 
the American Medical Association (AMA), and American Dental Association (ADA) – 
both private (government sanctioned and enforced) guilds or trade organizations 
have such power and control over who can practice medicine; over how medicine 
can be practiced? 


Because when they didn't anybody could hang out a shingle and claim to be 
doctor and there were quacks everywhere pushing patent medicine and bleeding 
people (literally).

 

Sure… but how does that justify giving a guild – e.g. the AMA – a monopoly over 
the issue of licenses to practice medicine? Why not a state body for example. 
Why a monopoly private trade association?






MDs in the US make on average twice as much money as MDs in other OECD 
countries – such as Germany -- for example.


In Germany, as I understand it, insurance companies bid to insure classes of 
workers and they then negotiate to control doctors fees.  Most of the OECD 
countries directly regulate or pay health care fees.  Of all the OECD countries 
the U.S. has the most free-market system, and the most expensive health care.  
It shows the fallacy of the libertarian dream. When everyone pursues 
self-interest the winners will be those who form coalitions whose objective is 
to eliminate other coalitions.

 

The US system likes to bill itself as being free market, but it is in fact 
rather more of a crony capitalist system

Re: real A.I.

2014-12-18 Thread LizR

America - capitalist if you're poor, communist if you're rich.

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Re: real A.I.

2014-12-18 Thread Telmo Menezes

On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 8:08 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:

  On 12/18/2014 2:37 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote:



 On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 11:25 AM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote:

 Democracy is the worst system of government ever invented - apart from
 all the others.

  Winston Churchill


  So why didn't he revolt against his own country's unelected sovereigns?


 Because they were simply symbolic and didn't have any political power.
 Yet they had the symbolic power of tradition, which Churchill appreciated
 and used.


People keep saying that, but the reality seems to be that the Queen retains
some quite important powers, she just choses not to use them:

http://royalcentral.co.uk/blogs/explanation/what-are-the-queens-powers-22069

Even worse perhaps is the House of Lords:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Lords

They have inherited positions, religious positions and, again, some quite
real powers.

Telmo.



 Brent

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Re: real A.I.

2014-12-17 Thread Jason Resch

On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 6:07 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:

  On 12/16/2014 10:15 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote:

 Hi Liz,

 On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 7:51 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote:

 What is funny - as well as sad and frightening - is the number of people
 here who apparently don't believe in democracy, even in principle.
 Democracy is the idea that we can elect people to do things for everyone
 else (the NHS, conservation, social security, infrastructure, regulations,
 police, army science etc etc).


  All of the things you mention are run by unelected bureaucrats with long
 careers, who see politicians come and go.

  I highly recommend the British show Yes, Prime Minister! to learn
 about this:
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmXzGI0XP7M
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeF_o1Ss1NQ


  Yet all I can see here is people saying that it doesn't work. I think
 the truth is that it can be hijacked and THEN it doesn't work. The NHS
 (despite everything) was one of the greatest achievements of the 20th
 century, after all. And it was introduced by a government because of its
 beliefs and principles.


  The NHS is the sort of thing that should worry an Ecologist, because
 it's based on infinite growth. Both the European system (based on infinite
 demographic growth) and the Anglo (based on infinite economic growth). I
 also feel that it serves mostly to fix a problem created by the government
 itself in a previous regulatory wave. The barriers to competition in the
 practice of healthcare are so high that it becomes unaffordable without
 insurance or subsidy.


 Health care isn't well regulated by competition because the consumer is
 ill equipped to judge the necessity or the quality of service and the most
 expensive service tends to a one-time event for the consumer.


Worse, the healthcare industry has gotten the US government to pass laws
making it exempt from monopolistic practices, price fixing, charging people
different amounts for the same service, forbidding reimportation of
medicine, restricting the number of MRI machines in a given area. It's what
leads to people being charged $60,000 for two bottles of anti-venom that
cost $200, or be charged $9,000 for a few stiches in a finger. (these are real
life examples http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=229605 and not
exaggerations).  Experimental clinics like The Surgery Center of Oklahoma,
which cut out insurance companies, and publishes their prices are 5-10X
cheaper
http://reason.com/reasontv/2012/11/15/the-obamacare-revolt-oklahoma-doctors-fi
than what other hospitals charge (and about equivalent to prices charged in
Japan and India). If medical costs were this cheap, many people wouldn't
need insurance to pay for all but the most catastrophic of illnesses.

If hospitals were required to adhere to the same anti-trust rules as any
other business, to publish their prices and charge the same amount to
everyone, we would see about 80% of the cost of healthcare evaporate
overnight. It's a sad state of affairs when for every doctor in the country
there are two people working in the medical insurance industry.

Jason




   It's one of the several resource confiscation traps that have been
 emerging under crony capitalism.


 What does that mean?


  I know, I know. You're going to say that lots of deaths have been
 prevented by these regulations. This is true. But how many deaths have been
 caused by poor or inexistent access to healthcare?


 In the U.S. it's been estimated as at least 40,000/yr.

   How many have been caused by the glaciar pace of innovation imposed by
 such regulations?


 What innovation has been delayed by regulation?  thalidomide?  abortion
 pills?


   By patents? People refuse to recognise that this trade-off exists.

  I dream of flat guaranteed income based on a real currency (not the
 current pyramid schemes that we call Dollars or Euros). Possibly a
 cryptocurrency with a smart algorithm that hopefully cannot fall under the
 control of the bandits.


 Isn't there already an effective guaranteed income in terms of food,
 shelter, health care.  I doubt people are allowed to starve or freeze or go
 without medical treatment.  Of course I would agree that there should also
 be a guarantee of as much education as a person wishes to absorb.

 Brent

 --
 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
 Everything List group.
 To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
 email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
 To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
 Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
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To post to

Re: real A.I.

2014-12-17 Thread Telmo Menezes

On Wed, Dec 17, 2014 at 1:07 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:

  On 12/16/2014 10:15 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote:

 Hi Liz,

 On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 7:51 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote:

 What is funny - as well as sad and frightening - is the number of people
 here who apparently don't believe in democracy, even in principle.
 Democracy is the idea that we can elect people to do things for everyone
 else (the NHS, conservation, social security, infrastructure, regulations,
 police, army science etc etc).


  All of the things you mention are run by unelected bureaucrats with long
 careers, who see politicians come and go.

  I highly recommend the British show Yes, Prime Minister! to learn
 about this:
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmXzGI0XP7M
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeF_o1Ss1NQ


  Yet all I can see here is people saying that it doesn't work. I think
 the truth is that it can be hijacked and THEN it doesn't work. The NHS
 (despite everything) was one of the greatest achievements of the 20th
 century, after all. And it was introduced by a government because of its
 beliefs and principles.


  The NHS is the sort of thing that should worry an Ecologist, because
 it's based on infinite growth. Both the European system (based on infinite
 demographic growth) and the Anglo (based on infinite economic growth). I
 also feel that it serves mostly to fix a problem created by the government
 itself in a previous regulatory wave. The barriers to competition in the
 practice of healthcare are so high that it becomes unaffordable without
 insurance or subsidy.


 Health care isn't well regulated by competition because the consumer is
 ill equipped to judge the necessity or the quality of service and the most
 expensive service tends to a one-time event for the consumer.


There are all sorts of mechanisms that are already employed by the private
sector to deal with this, namely brand reputation and third-party
certification services. Private certification brands would depend so much
on their own reputation that they would probably be less vulnerable to
bribes than government inspectors.



   It's one of the several resource confiscation traps that have been
 emerging under crony capitalism.


 What does that mean?


It means that an essential service felt into the hands of an oligarchy,
that made it illegal for anyone to provide the service without playing by
their rules. There is zero competition on price, but the drive for
maximising profits that the left criticises so much is still present. The
rational agents create horizontal and vertical cartels (with the insurance
companies) and fix prices. Services that could cost $20 now cost $5000.
Then in the US, you tie health insurance to employment and now you have
servitude again.




  I know, I know. You're going to say that lots of deaths have been
 prevented by these regulations. This is true. But how many deaths have been
 caused by poor or inexistent access to healthcare?


 In the U.S. it's been estimated as at least 40,000/yr.

   How many have been caused by the glaciar pace of innovation imposed by
 such regulations?


 What innovation has been delayed by regulation?  thalidomide?  abortion
 pills?


MDMA therapy for soldiers that suffer from PTSD, for example. Ketamine for
severe depression. DMT for drug addictions. Nutritional research that is
not controlled by food lobbies.

If governments were genuinely worried about thalidomide scenarios, they
would rush to make cannabis legal everywhere. The market is being flooded
with legal highs and one of them could very well be the next thalidomide.
Cannabis is sufficiently tested, so legalising it would be the rational
action if public health was the real concern.





   By patents? People refuse to recognise that this trade-off exists.

  I dream of flat guaranteed income based on a real currency (not the
 current pyramid schemes that we call Dollars or Euros). Possibly a
 cryptocurrency with a smart algorithm that hopefully cannot fall under the
 control of the bandits.


 Isn't there already an effective guaranteed income in terms of food,
 shelter, health care.  I doubt people are allowed to starve or freeze or go
 without medical treatment.  Of course I would agree that there should also
 be a guarantee of as much education as a person wishes to absorb.


I couldn't agree more on the last point. This is actually something
important we might be able to agree on: an educated population is a more
effective tool for progress than any ideology.

It is true that the western world made great progress in terms of providing
a safety net at the very bottom. The system will probably not let you
starve to death or die of exposure.

What I'm proposing is different, though. Technological progress should lead
to less need for labour. With the leverage of technology, less people have
to work to feed and shelter everyone. But with our current economic system,
the main mechanism of wealth distribution

Re: real A.I.

2014-12-17 Thread Bruno Marchal



On 17 Dec 2014, at 11:11, Telmo Menezes wrote:




On Wed, Dec 17, 2014 at 1:07 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net  
wrote:

On 12/16/2014 10:15 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote:

Hi Liz,

On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 7:51 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote:
What is funny - as well as sad and frightening - is the number of  
people here who apparently don't believe in democracy, even in  
principle. Democracy is the idea that we can elect people to do  
things for everyone else (the NHS, conservation, social security,  
infrastructure, regulations, police, army science etc etc).


All of the things you mention are run by unelected bureaucrats with  
long careers, who see politicians come and go.


I highly recommend the British show Yes, Prime Minister! to learn  
about this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmXzGI0XP7M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeF_o1Ss1NQ

Yet all I can see here is people saying that it doesn't work. I  
think the truth is that it can be hijacked and THEN it doesn't  
work. The NHS (despite everything) was one of the greatest  
achievements of the 20th century, after all. And it was introduced  
by a government because of its beliefs and principles.


The NHS is the sort of thing that should worry an Ecologist,  
because it's based on infinite growth. Both the European system  
(based on infinite demographic growth) and the Anglo (based on  
infinite economic growth). I also feel that it serves mostly to fix  
a problem created by the government itself in a previous regulatory  
wave. The barriers to competition in the practice of healthcare are  
so high that it becomes unaffordable without insurance or subsidy.


Health care isn't well regulated by competition because the consumer  
is ill equipped to judge the necessity or the quality of service and  
the most expensive service tends to a one-time event for the consumer.


There are all sorts of mechanisms that are already employed by the  
private sector to deal with this, namely brand reputation and third- 
party certification services. Private certification brands would  
depend so much on their own reputation that they would probably be  
less vulnerable to bribes than government inspectors.



It's one of the several resource confiscation traps that have been  
emerging under crony capitalism.


What does that mean?

It means that an essential service felt into the hands of an  
oligarchy, that made it illegal for anyone to provide the service  
without playing by their rules. There is zero competition on price,  
but the drive for maximising profits that the left criticises so  
much is still present. The rational agents create horizontal and  
vertical cartels (with the insurance companies) and fix prices.  
Services that could cost $20 now cost $5000. Then in the US, you tie  
health insurance to employment and now you have servitude again.





I know, I know. You're going to say that lots of deaths have been  
prevented by these regulations. This is true. But how many deaths  
have been caused by poor or inexistent access to healthcare?


In the U.S. it's been estimated as at least 40,000/yr.

How many have been caused by the glaciar pace of innovation imposed  
by such regulations?


What innovation has been delayed by regulation?  thalidomide?   
abortion pills?


MDMA therapy for soldiers that suffer from PTSD, for example.  
Ketamine for severe depression. DMT for drug addictions. Nutritional  
research that is not controlled by food lobbies.


If governments were genuinely worried about thalidomide scenarios,  
they would rush to make cannabis legal everywhere. The market is  
being flooded with legal highs and one of them could very well be  
the next thalidomide. Cannabis is sufficiently tested, so legalising  
it would be the rational action if public health was the real concern.






By patents? People refuse to recognise that this trade-off exists.

I dream of flat guaranteed income based on a real currency (not the  
current pyramid schemes that we call Dollars or Euros). Possibly a  
cryptocurrency with a smart algorithm that hopefully cannot fall  
under the control of the bandits.


Isn't there already an effective guaranteed income in terms of  
food, shelter, health care.  I doubt people are allowed to starve or  
freeze or go without medical treatment.  Of course I would agree  
that there should also be a guarantee of as much education as a  
person wishes to absorb.


I couldn't agree more on the last point. This is actually something  
important we might be able to agree on: an educated population is a  
more effective tool for progress than any ideology.


It is true that the western world made great progress in terms of  
providing a safety net at the very bottom. The system will probably  
not let you starve to death or die of exposure.


What I'm proposing is different, though. Technological progress  
should lead to less need for labour. With the leverage of  
technology, less people have to work to feed

Re: real A.I.

2014-12-17 Thread Alberto G. Corona

Starting from the fact that The NHS was introduced by Bismark in the German
Empire. for the same reasons that it is sustained today by democracies:
populism.

Since the introduction of NHS in England no new hospital was constructed
until recently.

Democracy, an element of the liberal state, lives on premises that it can
not itself guarantee. (Bockenforde). It is based on the idea that people
will not act or vote for their inmediate interests  but will vote for
anything that maintain the common good forever.  That is absolutely false.
The only thing that maintain democracy is not democracy, but the morality
of the people. That morality is contunuously underminded by democracy
itself by means of the logic of populism and the formation of majorities
that produce false and impossible and incompatible political promises for
different groups of people. That divides and confront ones with others.

It is based on the idea that a million idiot votes within an urn produces
wise decissions. On the idea that consensus produce truth.

Democracy is destined to be hyaked by false democrats that do not believe
in democracy but want to abuse it from inside . They are the worst
antidemocrats. And the responsibles of that hyaking are te dumb people that
believe  acritically in democracy.

2014-12-16 15:44 GMT+01:00 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be:


 On 15 Dec 2014, at 19:51, LizR wrote:

  What is funny - as well as sad and frightening - is the number of people
 here who apparently don't believe in democracy, even in principle.
 Democracy is the idea that we can elect people to do things for everyone
 else (the NHS, conservation, social security, infrastructure, regulations,
 police, army science etc etc). Yet all I can see here is people saying that
 it doesn't work. I think the truth is that it can be hijacked and THEN it
 doesn't work. The NHS (despite everything) was one of the greatest
 achievements of the 20th century, after all. And it was introduced by a
 government because of its beliefs and principles.


 I agree completely with you. Like academies, democracies are the worst
 except for anything else.
 Many people criticize the system, and this *benefits* those who pervert
 the system. Our democracies are sick (and partially hijacked by corporatist
 interests), but this needs we must heal them, not condemn it.

 Bruno



 http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/




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Re: real A.I.

2014-12-16 Thread Bruno Marchal



On 15 Dec 2014, at 19:51, LizR wrote:

What is funny - as well as sad and frightening - is the number of  
people here who apparently don't believe in democracy, even in  
principle. Democracy is the idea that we can elect people to do  
things for everyone else (the NHS, conservation, social security,  
infrastructure, regulations, police, army science etc etc). Yet all  
I can see here is people saying that it doesn't work. I think the  
truth is that it can be hijacked and THEN it doesn't work. The NHS  
(despite everything) was one of the greatest achievements of the  
20th century, after all. And it was introduced by a government  
because of its beliefs and principles.


I agree completely with you. Like academies, democracies are the worst  
except for anything else.
Many people criticize the system, and this *benefits* those who  
pervert the system. Our democracies are sick (and partially hijacked  
by corporatist interests), but this needs we must heal them, not  
condemn it.


Bruno



http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



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Re: real A.I.

2014-12-16 Thread Telmo Menezes

On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 3:44 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote:


 On 15 Dec 2014, at 19:51, LizR wrote:

  What is funny - as well as sad and frightening - is the number of people
 here who apparently don't believe in democracy, even in principle.
 Democracy is the idea that we can elect people to do things for everyone
 else (the NHS, conservation, social security, infrastructure, regulations,
 police, army science etc etc). Yet all I can see here is people saying that
 it doesn't work. I think the truth is that it can be hijacked and THEN it
 doesn't work. The NHS (despite everything) was one of the greatest
 achievements of the 20th century, after all. And it was introduced by a
 government because of its beliefs and principles.


 I agree completely with you. Like academies, democracies are the worst
 except for anything else.
 Many people criticize the system, and this *benefits* those who pervert
 the system. Our democracies are sick (and partially hijacked by corporatist
 interests), but this needs we must heal them, not condemn it.


This is a bit too simplistic. Democracy means a wide range of systems,
from the Athenian random draw to the complex representative system of
modern America.

One problem with democracy is that it does not prevent tyranny. You can
still fall in the situation of the majority electing tyrants. People were
dismayed to find this happening after the Arab spring. I suspect that we
are on the last stages of a failed experiment to solve this issue:
constitutions. The idea is beautiful: start with a document that clearly
states the individual rights that cannot, in any circumstance, be voted
away by the majority. The Weimar constitution did not prevent the rise of
the nazis and the American constitution did not survive the secret courts
and the re-interpretations of the XX and XXI century.

Some people are making valiant efforts to fix this, working within the
system:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf_PAC

In the US, revoking the personhood of corporations and preventing them from
donating money to politicians is the single most effective measure I can
think of to returning things to a sane balance. They are surely going to
meet formidable adversaries.

My fear is this: what if they succeed and it still doesn't work? What if
the supreme court judges re-interpret whatever they write in the
constitution in a way that pleases the oligarchy, like they always seem to
do these days?

Telmo.



 Bruno



 http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/




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RE: real A.I.

2014-12-16 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

-Original Message-
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Bruno Marchal
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2014 6:45 AM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: real A.I.

On 15 Dec 2014, at 19:51, LizR wrote:

 What is funny - as well as sad and frightening - is the number of 
 people here who apparently don't believe in democracy, even in 
 principle. Democracy is the idea that we can elect people to do things 
 for everyone else (the NHS, conservation, social security, 
 infrastructure, regulations, police, army science etc etc). Yet all I 
 can see here is people saying that it doesn't work. I think the truth 
 is that it can be hijacked and THEN it doesn't work. The NHS (despite 
 everything) was one of the greatest achievements of the 20th century, 
 after all. And it was introduced by a government because of its 
 beliefs and principles.

I agree completely with you. Like academies, democracies are the worst except 
for anything else.
Many people criticize the system, and this *benefits* those who pervert the 
system. Our democracies are sick (and partially hijacked by corporatist 
interests), but this needs we must heal them, not condemn it.

If by partially hijacked by corporate interests, you mean 99% hijacked by 
corporate (and global money center banker) interests, then I agree with you.
-Chris

Bruno

http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/

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Re: real A.I.

2014-12-16 Thread Telmo Menezes

Hi Liz,

On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 7:51 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote:

 What is funny - as well as sad and frightening - is the number of people
 here who apparently don't believe in democracy, even in principle.
 Democracy is the idea that we can elect people to do things for everyone
 else (the NHS, conservation, social security, infrastructure, regulations,
 police, army science etc etc).


All of the things you mention are run by unelected bureaucrats with long
careers, who see politicians come and go.

I highly recommend the British show Yes, Prime Minister! to learn about
this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmXzGI0XP7M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeF_o1Ss1NQ


 Yet all I can see here is people saying that it doesn't work. I think the
 truth is that it can be hijacked and THEN it doesn't work. The NHS (despite
 everything) was one of the greatest achievements of the 20th century, after
 all. And it was introduced by a government because of its beliefs and
 principles.


The NHS is the sort of thing that should worry an Ecologist, because it's
based on infinite growth. Both the European system (based on infinite
demographic growth) and the Anglo (based on infinite economic growth). I
also feel that it serves mostly to fix a problem created by the government
itself in a previous regulatory wave. The barriers to competition in the
practice of healthcare are so high that it becomes unaffordable without
insurance or subsidy. It's one of the several resource confiscation traps
that have been emerging under crony capitalism.

I know, I know. You're going to say that lots of deaths have been prevented
by these regulations. This is true. But how many deaths have been caused by
poor or inexistent access to healthcare? How many have been caused by the
glaciar pace of innovation imposed by such regulations? By patents? People
refuse to recognise that this trade-off exists.

I dream of flat guaranteed income based on a real currency (not the current
pyramid schemes that we call Dollars or Euros). Possibly a cryptocurrency
with a smart algorithm that hopefully cannot fall under the control of the
bandits.


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Re: real A.I.

2014-12-16 Thread Bruno Marchal



On 16 Dec 2014, at 18:50, Telmo Menezes wrote:




On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 3:44 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be  
wrote:


On 15 Dec 2014, at 19:51, LizR wrote:

What is funny - as well as sad and frightening - is the number of  
people here who apparently don't believe in democracy, even in  
principle. Democracy is the idea that we can elect people to do  
things for everyone else (the NHS, conservation, social security,  
infrastructure, regulations, police, army science etc etc). Yet all  
I can see here is people saying that it doesn't work. I think the  
truth is that it can be hijacked and THEN it doesn't work. The NHS  
(despite everything) was one of the greatest achievements of the  
20th century, after all. And it was introduced by a government  
because of its beliefs and principles.


I agree completely with you. Like academies, democracies are the  
worst except for anything else.
Many people criticize the system, and this *benefits* those who  
pervert the system. Our democracies are sick (and partially hijacked  
by corporatist interests), but this needs we must heal them, not  
condemn it.


This is a bit too simplistic. Democracy means a wide range of  
systems, from the Athenian random draw to the complex representative  
system of modern America.


I meant the modern democracies.





One problem with democracy is that it does not prevent tyranny.


Sure. But only in a democracy you can do things usually impossible in  
tyranny, like teaching and encouraging the art of thinking, developing  
knowledge, and the art of respecting the others and its limit, like  
not tolerating intolerance.


Of course once you vote and put bandits or corporations into power,  
there is a problem.
A  democracy is where you have the right say 2+2=4, without fear of  
being tortured.






You can still fall in the situation of the majority electing tyrants.


Yes, but that happens when the democracy is already sick, and demagog  
groups exploits the crisis, sometimes provokes the crisis.




People were dismayed to find this happening after the Arab spring. I  
suspect that we are on the last stages of a failed experiment to  
solve this issue: constitutions. The idea is beautiful: start with a  
document that clearly states the individual rights that cannot, in  
any circumstance, be voted away by the majority. The Weimar  
constitution did not prevent the rise of the nazis and the American  
constitution did not survive the secret courts and the re- 
interpretations of the XX and XXI century.


The problem is that above some amount of money, you can multiply the  
amount by huge factor by using lies. Lies can augment profits quickly.


Well, it is like a cncer cell in an organism, we must learn and  
correct it, but that can take generations, We are hostage of them,  
through the dissolution of responsiblity.


The problem is complex, but the solution is simple: detect the lies,  
inform people. In our case: never vote for someone with the slighest  
air of complacency with prohibitionists. They are incompetent or  
criminals.







Some people are making valiant efforts to fix this, working within  
the system:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf_PAC

In the US, revoking the personhood of corporations and preventing  
them from donating money to politicians is the single most effective  
measure I can think of to returning things to a sane balance. They  
are surely going to meet formidable adversaries.


In most european countries something similar is (not well enough)  
implemented. In the US the financial lobbying is quite pervert indeed.





My fear is this: what if they succeed and it still doesn't work?


It is not a question of working or not, it is a question of the amount  
of suffering in the working. If this succeeds it can only be harm  
reduction. Is it enough? I would add some serious investment in the  
basic education, logic, statistics, arithmetic, geography, history,  
even the base of parlementary democracies and their possible diseases.





What if the supreme court judges re-interpret whatever they write in  
the constitution in a way that pleases the oligarchy, like they  
always seem to do these days?


It only means that the supreme court has a gun behind the head. We  
cannot do a revolution against bandits, but they know that it is in  
their interests that the system does not collapse, so reason is always  
an hope in the limit. We should forgiven the liars who stop the lies,  
and continue to fight the others.


Money is a wonderful mean for reducing the harm, but when money  
becomes a goal and a mean at once, it is a poison and enhance the arms.


I do think some progress in health/spirituality can help to understand  
this. May be super-rich should be helped and treated for addiction.  
Some herbs are so helpful for that, addiction is easy to cure, when  
you don't make the medication illegal, of course.


Democracies are quite sick today, but democracy, in the

Re: real A.I.

2014-12-16 Thread meekerdb

On 12/16/2014 9:50 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote:

On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 3:44 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be
mailto:marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote:

On 15 Dec 2014, at 19:51, LizR wrote:

What is funny - as well as sad and frightening - is the number of
people here
who apparently don't believe in democracy, even in principle. Democracy
is the
idea that we can elect people to do things for everyone else (the NHS,
conservation, social security, infrastructure, regulations, police,
army science
etc etc). Yet all I can see here is people saying that it doesn't work.
I think
the truth is that it can be hijacked and THEN it doesn't work. The NHS
(despite
everything) was one of the greatest achievements of the 20th century,
after all.
And it was introduced by a government because of its beliefs and
principles.

I agree completely with you. Like academies, democracies are the worst
except for
anything else.
Many people criticize the system, and this *benefits* those who pervert the
system.
Our democracies are sick (and partially hijacked by corporatist interests),
but this
needs we must heal them, not condemn it.

This is a bit too simplistic. Democracy means a wide range of systems, from the
Athenian random draw to the complex representative system of modern America.

One problem with democracy is that it does not prevent tyranny.

In fact Plato and Aristotle thought that democracy necessarily led to tyranny, i.e. the
election of a tyrant. The U.S. founding fathers were well aware of this and the solution,
mainly due to Madison, was to having may competing political interests: states, merchants,
farmers, bankers,...as well as individuals.

You can still fall in the situation of the majority electing tyrants. People were
dismayed to find this happening after the Arab spring. I suspect that we are on the last
stages of a failed experiment to solve this issue: constitutions. The idea is beautiful:
start with a document that clearly states the individual rights that cannot, in any
circumstance, be voted away by the majority. The Weimar constitution did not prevent the
rise of the nazis and the American constitution did not survive the secret courts and
the re-interpretations of the XX and XXI century.

Some people are making valiant efforts to fix this, working within the system:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf_PAC

In the US, revoking the personhood of corporations and preventing them from donating
money to politicians is the single most effective measure I can think of to returning
things to a sane balance. They are surely going to meet formidable adversaries.

My fear is this: what if they succeed and it still doesn't work? What if the supreme
court judges re-interpret whatever they write in the constitution in a way that pleases
the oligarchy, like they always seem to do these days?

That's why Jefferson said that an occasional revolution is necessary. I just hope that it
can be effected without violence, as the New Deal and Civil Rights movement were.

Brent

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Re: real A.I.

2014-12-16 Thread meekerdb

On 12/16/2014 10:15 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote:

Hi Liz,

On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 7:51 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com
mailto:lizj...@gmail.com wrote:

All of the things you mention are run by unelected bureaucrats with long careers, who
see politicians come and go.

I highly recommend the British show Yes, Prime Minister! to learn about this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmXzGI0XP7M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeF_o1Ss1NQ

Yet all I can see here is people saying that it doesn't work. I think the
truth is
that it can be hijacked and THEN it doesn't work. The NHS (despite
everything) was
one of the greatest achievements of the 20th century, after all. And it was
introduced by a government because of its beliefs and principles.

The NHS is the sort of thing that should worry an Ecologist, because it's based on
infinite growth. Both the European system (based on infinite demographic growth) and the
Anglo (based on infinite economic growth). I also feel that it serves mostly to fix a
problem created by the government itself in a previous regulatory wave. The barriers to
competition in the practice of healthcare are so high that it becomes unaffordable
without insurance or subsidy.

It's one of the several resource confiscation traps that have been emerging under crony
capitalism.

What does that mean?

I know, I know. You're going to say that lots of deaths have been prevented by these
regulations. This is true. But how many deaths have been caused by poor or inexistent
access to healthcare?

In the U.S. it's been estimated as at least 40,000/yr.

How many have been caused by the glaciar pace of innovation imposed by such
regulations?

What innovation has been delayed by regulation? thalidomide? abortion pills?

By patents? People refuse to recognise that this trade-off exists.

I dream of flat guaranteed income based on a real currency (not the current pyramid
schemes that we call Dollars or Euros). Possibly a cryptocurrency with a smart algorithm
that hopefully cannot fall under the control of the bandits.

Isn't there already an effective guaranteed income in terms of food, shelter, health
care. I doubt people are allowed to starve or freeze or go without medical treatment. Of
course I would agree that there should also be a guarantee of as much education as a
person wishes to absorb.

Brent

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Re: real A.I.

2014-12-15 Thread Telmo Menezes

On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 5:40 AM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote:

 On 15 December 2014 at 13:57, spudboy100 via Everything List 
 everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote:


 Sent from AOL Mobile Mail
  But the market is sorting it out.


 Excuse me while I ROFL


Similar hilarity may ensue from the idea that governments can tackle
complex problems in the absence of war. It's even worse than this: there is
no empirical reason to assume that governments can even focus on solving
the right problems. Consider the war on drugs, the TSA, the food pyramid,
the total surveillance apparatus and the incredible civilisational step
back of reintroducing torture in the western world as a condoned way for
states to operate.

Modern governments have shown to be very competent when it comes to waging
war. They seem to be more or less designed for that. Even the education
system is modelled after the Prussian soldier factory. Even the progresses
that Brent mention were part of arms races. Competition always has
something to do with progress, and war is how you introduce competition in
government. To have competition and peace, I'm not sure that anyone ever
came up with something better than the free market.

I don't understand the line of reasoning where people claim that in the
free market people act only out of self-interest, so we need organisations
that act in the public interest. That sounds great, but why should one
believe that positions of power will not end up attracting self-serving
sociopaths? Considerable empirical evidence seems to point to that being
the case.

To attack climate change with regulation one would need a world government.
What's the point of cutting CO2 emissions in the USA or Europe if you can't
force China to do the same? On one hand, expecting that level of global
cooperation seems naive. On the other hand, if it were possible, I wonder
if life would be worth it under such a regime.




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Re: real A.I.

2014-12-15 Thread Alberto G. Corona

democratic socialism: The ideological form that oligarchy adopt in the era
of mass media propaganda and liquid goods, where confiscation can not be
done completely done by brute force

2014-12-15 11:52 GMT+01:00 Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com:



 On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 5:40 AM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote:

 On 15 December 2014 at 13:57, spudboy100 via Everything List 
 everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote:


 Sent from AOL Mobile Mail
  But the market is sorting it out.


 Excuse me while I ROFL


 Similar hilarity may ensue from the idea that governments can tackle
 complex problems in the absence of war. It's even worse than this: there is
 no empirical reason to assume that governments can even focus on solving
 the right problems. Consider the war on drugs, the TSA, the food pyramid,
 the total surveillance apparatus and the incredible civilisational step
 back of reintroducing torture in the western world as a condoned way for
 states to operate.

 Modern governments have shown to be very competent when it comes to waging
 war. They seem to be more or less designed for that. Even the education
 system is modelled after the Prussian soldier factory. Even the progresses
 that Brent mention were part of arms races. Competition always has
 something to do with progress, and war is how you introduce competition in
 government. To have competition and peace, I'm not sure that anyone ever
 came up with something better than the free market.

 I don't understand the line of reasoning where people claim that in the
 free market people act only out of self-interest, so we need organisations
 that act in the public interest. That sounds great, but why should one
 believe that positions of power will not end up attracting self-serving
 sociopaths? Considerable empirical evidence seems to point to that being
 the case.

 To attack climate change with regulation one would need a world
 government. What's the point of cutting CO2 emissions in the USA or Europe
 if you can't force China to do the same? On one hand, expecting that level
 of global cooperation seems naive. On the other hand, if it were possible,
 I wonder if life would be worth it under such a regime.




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-- 
Alberto.

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Re: real A.I.

2014-12-15 Thread spudboy100 via Everything List

At the end of the day, we must ask, who wins, and who loses? If solar cannot 
cut the mustard, then it will remain (until some technical development) a sales 
pitch, chiefly, by the worlds, so called progressives. You are either running 
your vehicle round Auckland (carefully avoiding the hobbits) on solar-electric 
power or you ain't. Similarly, atomic power has not been the engine that 
drives the worlds cities,now is it? Remember that? 



-Original Message-
From: LizR lizj...@gmail.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sun, Dec 14, 2014 11:41 pm
Subject: Re: real A.I.



On 15 December 2014 at 13:57, spudboy100 via Everything List 
everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote:

Sent from AOL Mobile Mail
 But the market is sorting it out. 


Excuse me while I ROFL




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Re: real A.I.

2014-12-15 Thread spudboy100 via Everything List

This is a splendidly accurate assessment, Alberto. It is what has happened is 
real life and not our conjectures on email.I conjecture and ask questions and 
sometimes accuse on the list. But this is the form of government that prevails. 
Having said this, the Fabian socialists (UK) didn't achieve their wins by not 
exploiting the failures of capitalism, and the rule of conservative regimes. 
This, too, has been the truth. 



-Original Message-
From: Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Mon, Dec 15, 2014 6:14 am
Subject: Re: real A.I.


democratic socialism: The ideological form that oligarchy adopt in the era of 
mass media propaganda and liquid goods, where confiscation can not be done 
completely done by brute force



2014-12-15 11:52 GMT+01:00 Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com:




On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 5:40 AM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote:

On 15 December 2014 at 13:57, spudboy100 via Everything List 
everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote:

Sent from AOL Mobile Mail
 But the market is sorting it out. 


Excuse me while I ROFL




Similar hilarity may ensue from the idea that governments can tackle complex 
problems in the absence of war. It's even worse than this: there is no 
empirical reason to assume that governments can even focus on solving the right 
problems. Consider the war on drugs, the TSA, the food pyramid, the total 
surveillance apparatus and the incredible civilisational step back of 
reintroducing torture in the western world as a condoned way for states to 
operate.


Modern governments have shown to be very competent when it comes to waging war. 
They seem to be more or less designed for that. Even the education system is 
modelled after the Prussian soldier factory. Even the progresses that Brent 
mention were part of arms races. Competition always has something to do with 
progress, and war is how you introduce competition in government. To have 
competition and peace, I'm not sure that anyone ever came up with something 
better than the free market.


I don't understand the line of reasoning where people claim that in the free 
market people act only out of self-interest, so we need organisations that act 
in the public interest. That sounds great, but why should one believe that 
positions of power will not end up attracting self-serving sociopaths? 
Considerable empirical evidence seems to point to that being the case.


To attack climate change with regulation one would need a world government. 
What's the point of cutting CO2 emissions in the USA or Europe if you can't 
force China to do the same? On one hand, expecting that level of global 
cooperation seems naive. On the other hand, if it were possible, I wonder if 
life would be worth it under such a regime.


 







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-- 

Alberto.

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Re: real A.I.

2014-12-15 Thread John Clark

On Sun, Dec 14, 2014 at 1:57 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote:

 Singularity isn't quite the right word,


Some people prefer the word horizon, a point beyond which we can't make
useful predictions because things are changing too fast and too radically;
but I prefer singularity because a horizon is a line not a point.

 because whatever happens will be limited by the laws of physics. Maybe
 nanotech actually is impossible.


Nanotechnology involves no new laws of physics or even unusual physics, it
doesn't need General Relativity, colossal gravitational fields,
astronomical densities and huge masses or energies; the temperatures and
pressures and energy we encounter everyday are sufficient for
Nanotechnology to work. But we can go further, we know for a fact that
Nanotechnology is possible because we have a existence example, life.
Admittedly life is a crude version of Nanotechnology but it's about as good
as you could hope for considering that it was invented by random mutation
and natural selection. I have a hunch intelligence can do better, one hell
of a lot better. I should add that the fact that the area human beings are
able to successfully engineer is cut in half every 18 months gives me a
hint that we're on the right path to Nanotechnology.


  The assumption that we can increase everything without limit isn't
 likely to be correct.


You don't need that for a singularity, just something increasing beyond any
hope of understanding.

 A sustainably run planet? A Dyson sphere? Neither appears remotely in
 reach yet


I think it will probably happen much sooner but even if I'm wrong and the
singularity won't happen for a 1000 years 999 years from now it will still
seem to be a long way off to nearly everybody, but more will happen in that
last year than the previous 999 combined. About the only thing certain is
that whenever it happens and whatever transpires afterwards it will be a
big surprise, otherwise it wouldn't be a singularity.

 John K Clark

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Re: real A.I.

2014-12-15 Thread LizR

On 15 December 2014 at 23:52, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote:



 On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 5:40 AM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote:

 On 15 December 2014 at 13:57, spudboy100 via Everything List 
 everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote:


 Sent from AOL Mobile Mail
  But the market is sorting it out.


 Excuse me while I ROFL


 Similar hilarity may ensue from the idea that governments can tackle
 complex problems in the absence of war. It's even worse than this: there is
 no empirical reason to assume that governments can even focus on solving
 the right problems. Consider the war on drugs, the TSA, the food pyramid,
 the total surveillance apparatus and the incredible civilisational step
 back of reintroducing torture in the western world as a condoned way for
 states to operate.


Consider putting people in space or landing on the Moon or arranging to
build motorways, hospitals, and similar infrastructure. Or stopping the
advertising of cigarettes. Or regulating whether food is correctly
labelled. It's not rocket science - or rather it is. Governments can do
things on a scale that corporations can't - or more to the point, it would
seem, won't. And since they have been doing so for a century, why the
hilarity? There is mountains of hard evidence that governments CAN do
useful stuff on a national scale - consider the NHS, consider social
security. The fact that they also do bad stuff doesn't somehow magic away
all the other stuff they've done.

None of which was done by markets or corporations or philanthropists.

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Re: real A.I.

2014-12-15 Thread LizR

What is funny - as well as sad and frightening - is the number of people
here who apparently don't believe in democracy, even in principle.
Democracy is the idea that we can elect people to do things for everyone
else (the NHS, conservation, social security, infrastructure, regulations,
police, army science etc etc). Yet all I can see here is people saying that
it doesn't work. I think the truth is that it can be hijacked and THEN it
doesn't work. The NHS (despite everything) was one of the greatest
achievements of the 20th century, after all. And it was introduced by a
government because of its beliefs and principles.

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Re: real A.I.

2014-12-15 Thread meekerdb


On 12/15/2014 10:51 AM, LizR wrote:
What is funny - as well as sad and frightening - is the number of people here who 
apparently don't believe in democracy, even in principle. Democracy is the idea that we 
can elect people to do things for everyone else (the NHS, conservation, social security, 
infrastructure, regulations, police, army science etc etc). Yet all I can see here is 
people saying that it doesn't work. I think the truth is that it can be hijacked and 
THEN it doesn't work. The NHS (despite everything) was one of the greatest achievements 
of the 20th century, after all. And it was introduced by a government because of its 
beliefs and principles.


Here's an interesting take on the global warming problem from Google.  Be sure to read the 
comments.


http://spectrum.ieee.org/energy/renewables/what-it-would-really-take-to-reverse-climate-change

Brent

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Re: real A.I.

The important thought to take away, is, rely on  technology to perform a real 
world, Newtonian physics, reality. Do not rely on Regulations for a fix, not by 
itself. Technology. It either works or it doesn't. laws are words can always be 
made into lies, and deception. 

-Original Message-
From: Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com
To: Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sat, Dec 13, 2014 1:10 pm
Subject: Re: real A.I.

On Sat, Dec 13, 2014 at 10:44 AM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Sat, Dec 13, 2014 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:

 And deniers are luddite morons who think we can fix global warmingon 
 short notice when it gets a lot worse but we can't screw it up inthe 
 meantime.

For heaven's sake, by 2100 we'll have full Nanotechnology and Quantum Computers 
at our disposal, or rather the human race's AI successors will. Global warming 
is small potatoes.  

On this I agree with John. If anyone can be accused of luddism, its the 
technological singularity deniers, who believe technology progresses at a 
constant linear rate and are ignorant of projections of the coming intelligence 
explosion. The technological singularity will happen well before 2100, and if 
it doesn't, it will be because we've already wiped ourselves out.

For those unfamiliar with the concept, I recommend this as a good primer:

http://www.kurzweilai.net/the-law-of-accelerating-returns

An analysis of the history of technology shows that technological change is 
exponential, contrary to the common-sense “intuitive linear” view. So we won’t 
experience 100 years of progress in the 21st century — it will be more like 
20,000 years of progress (at today’s rate). The “returns,” such as chip speed 
and cost-effectiveness, also increase exponentially. There’s even exponential 
growth in the rate of exponential growth. Within a few decades, machine 
intelligence will surpass human intelligence, leading to The Singularity — 
technological change so rapid and profound it represents a rupture in the 
fabric of human history. The implications include the merger of biological and 
nonbiological intelligence, immortal software-based humans, and ultra-high 
levels of intelligence that expand outward in the universe at the speed of 
light.

Jason

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Re: real A.I.

I fear regulations because, they can be altered by judges, bureaucrats, and 
politicians.Technology, let us say solar, as an example, either works or its 
doesn't. A better example is, the toilets flush or they don't either way, you 
will know, Regulations without technology often has drastically, bad, results. 
Witness Mao's Great Leap Forward, from 1958-62. Horrible and huge in its loss 
of life and preventable. 



-Original Message-
From: 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sat, Dec 13, 2014 2:46 pm
Subject: RE: real A.I.



 
 
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] 
Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2014 3:05 AM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: real A.I.
 

Its taking a problem, like global warming, and exaggerating that problem, so as 
to impose regulation. Its regulation, as the power to control. You want to 
fight global warming, then invent and distribute better energy systems. This is 
not being done in a truly, sincere, way, otherwise we'd have seen tens of 
billions of dollars, per year,  funding alternate energy, rather than a few 
billion. Paltry. What has been demanded is regulation. Doing things this way 
doesn't indicate rushing to fix a problem, but rushing to regulate the US.  
 
Sometimes regulation is good. We have laws and regulations, often for some 
pretty sound reasons. Of course it is abused and the regulators need to 
themselves remain regulated. And I agree that onerous petty regulations are 
awful and often serve nefarious occult purposes, such as restricting access to 
markets etc. that have nothing to do with the stated purpose of these 
regulations
However we need a framework of regulation and Law in order to operate in 
complex societies; they serve a purpose and I, for one am glad that we do have 
some of the laws and regulations we do have in place… others not so much.
Our main problem is not regulation, but corruption (which often uses regulation 
as a useful tool in order to obtain its ends) – in our system we have a 
revolving door between the regulators and the special interests they allegedly 
are intended to regulate. This incestuous relationship has led us to a system 
of government where the special interests seem to essentially write the Bills 
that – often almost verbatim – become passed into law by our corrupt political 
(and judicial) bodies.
What we are lacking – IMO – is regulation of the regulators. The system has 
become corrupt. Corrupt regulation is really better lumped in with corruption 
rather than regulation, to recognize it for what its end run purpose is! It is 
corruption using regulation as a tool for achieving corrupt outcomes.
Regulations and Laws are tools societies use in order to promote goals and 
proscribe certain behaviors and practices. Sometimes they are good; other times 
they are bad. Like any tool it depends how they are used. One can employ a 
hammer to drive in nails to construct a house… or to smash somebodies skull 
during a violent robbery. Hammers are not bad or good per se… they are tools.
-Chris

 

My prediction is that in the US,with the handing of the power to regulate to 
the UN,  you'd see a back-reaction, against the political elites, that champion 
regulations, and not funding research sufficiently. The oil and coal companies 
that are despised, would then win, handily. 

-Original Message-
From: meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, Dec 12, 2014 4:47 pm
Subject: Re: real A.I.


On 12/12/2014 12:02 PM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List wrote:


Alberto... you sound like someone who is convinced that the black helicopters 
are coming for you. Since you seem to thrive on paranoia and fear, let me give 
you some more fodder to fuel the mental fires of the paranoia squirming around 
inside your mind.

 

Here is another scary fear your godless UN elites can enslave the masses with.

 

Gamma-Ray Burst Caused Mass Extinction?




 



 




 


 


 


 


 




Gamma-Ray Burst Caused Mass Extinction? 

A stream of gamma rays aimed at Earth may have caused a mass die-off 440 
million years ago, according to a new paper that says a similar celestial 
catastrophe could...






View on news.nationalgeograph...


Preview by Yahoo





 













 



Mass extinction...Alberto would be all for that.  He'd just be against doing 
anything to stop it.  Anybody who'd propose that is a pinko atheist commy set 
on world domination.

Brent

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Re: real A.I.

2014-12-14 Thread John Clark

On Sat, Dec 13, 2014  'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List 
everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote:

 there is another race occurring on our planet, which is the race towards
 planetary scale resource depletion, biodegradation, and overpopulation.


It's true that the human race has never been more populous than it is right
now, but despite the planetary scale resource depletion and
biodegradation it is also true that human beings have never been
healthier or longer lived or better educated than they are right now.
Earlier this year I got into a debate on this list about how the world had
reached peak oil production and it's all downhill from there, but since
that debate just a few months ago the price of oil has dropped 40%. It's
the same with all commodities, when something gets hard to find the price
goes up and so there is a incentive to develop new technologies to find
more of it, or to find something completely different that can perform the
same function cheaper that is just as good or better.  And then the price
goes down.


  The pace of Singularity could falter and collapse if the industrial
 scale, supply chain linked networks of vertically integrated systems, upon
 which technology ultimately depends, begins to fall apart


There is zero evidence of a imminent failure of a major supply chain, but
if there were one millions or billions would die, but I doubt if the rate
of scientific or technological development would slow much, it didn't
during the great depression.

  food system collapse due to high dependence on petrochemical inputs
 (which will become priced out of reach for more and more farmers),


Only if we listen to idiot environmentalists.

  top soil loss, evolution of super-weeds, resistant insects and other
 pests (due to overuse of pesticides and petro-chemical enabled industrial
 scale mono-cropping practices).


You can't feed 7.1 billion large mammals without mono-cropping practices,
nor can you do so without pesticides and herbicides and artificial
fertilizer, although with genetically modified crops you'd need much less
of them;  if environmentalists thought with their brain and not their gut
they would be embracing genetic engineering with gusto, but unfortunately
they don't.


   Secondly singularity is not proceeding at an equal – or even a
 geometric pace -- across all facets of technology.


That is true, but as environmentalists have skillfully demonstrated the one
commodity that we might really be running out of is brainpower, and AI and
Moore's Law is proceeding at a breakneck pace.

 Are the rocket engines we make today all that much improved over the
 Apollo rocket engines?


No.

 How is Singularity coming along in rocket engine technology?


Two much more important questions are, how is the Singularity coming along
in replacing rocket engine engineers?  And how is the Singularity coming
along in replacing assembly line workers who mass produce rocket engines?



  The pace of change is lumpy. In some areas it is rapid and graphs along
 a geometric curve; while in others it is linear and often the linear slope
 is not much more than flat.


But the one area of technological advance that is not in dispute is the
same area where humans have previously claimed superiority to everything
else in their environment, intelligence, manual dexterity and information
processing.  And that is what will make the singularity so singular, a new
battery technology by itself will not cause a singularity, but a new entity
that can design and manufacture batteries better than any human will.

  John K Clark

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Re: real A.I.

2014-12-14 Thread John Clark

On Sat, Dec 13, 2014 at 5:26 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:

 And everybody talks about global warming but there is something else
 going on too, global dimming. For reasons that are not clearly understood
 but may be related to clouds, at any given temperature it takes longer now
 for water to evaporate than it did 50 years ago.

Citation?


For christ sake do I have to spoon feed you? Do a Google search for  global
dimming and evaporation!

 John K Clark

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Re: real A.I.

Singularity isn't quite the right word, because whatever happens will be
limited by the laws of physics. Maybe nanotech actually is impossible.
Maybe small scale fusion ditto. The assumption that we can increase
everything without limit isn't likely to be correct. We have an idea of
indefinite progress that can't work. The question is how high the peak is
that we can reach. A sustainably run planet? A Dyson sphere? Neither
appears remotely in reach yet, but of course no one knows what's around the
corner. We could be speeding towards utopia, a brick wall, or 1984 - or
1084, for that matter.

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Re: real A.I.

(Or all the above, given a multiverse...)

On 15 December 2014 at 07:57, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote:

 Singularity isn't quite the right word, because whatever happens will be
 limited by the laws of physics. Maybe nanotech actually is impossible.
 Maybe small scale fusion ditto. The assumption that we can increase
 everything without limit isn't likely to be correct. We have an idea of
 indefinite progress that can't work. The question is how high the peak is
 that we can reach. A sustainably run planet? A Dyson sphere? Neither
 appears remotely in reach yet, but of course no one knows what's around the
 corner. We could be speeding towards utopia, a brick wall, or 1984 - or
 1084, for that matter.



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Re: real A.I.

2014-12-14 Thread meekerdb

Technology doesn't come by magic. Nuclear power and photovoltaics were both developed by 
the government.  Low emission automobiles were developed in response to government 
regulation.  Sure technology is the solution to global warming, but technology takes 
development and development takes money.  Regulations not only restrict things, they also 
promote things.  One of the impediments to building thorium based nuclear powerplants is 
that there are not regulations for them. If you propose building one the first thing 
investors, local communities, local governments will ask is, Will it meet all the safety 
requirments and regulations. There aren't any (except the generic ones) so you can't get 
approval to build it.  This is a problem only the federal government can overcome by doing 
the initial development and writing safety standards based on the operation of pilot 
plants.  No capitalist is going to invest in such a developmental project - it's too risky 
at the legal level even if the technology were already developed (which it isn't).


Brent

On 12/14/2014 7:45 AM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:
The important thought to take away, is, rely on  technology to perform a real world, 
Newtonian physics, reality. Do not rely on Regulations for a fix, not by itself. 
Technology. It either works or it doesn't. laws are words can always be made into lies, 
and deception.



-Original Message-
From: Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com
To: Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sat, Dec 13, 2014 1:10 pm
Subject: Re: real A.I.



On Sat, Dec 13, 2014 at 10:44 AM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com 
mailto:johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote:


On Sat, Dec 13, 2014 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net 
mailto:meeke...@verizon.net
wrote:



 And deniers are luddite morons who think we can fix global warming on 
short notice when it gets
a lot worse but we can't screw it up in the meantime.


For heaven's sake, by 2100 we'll have full Nanotechnology and Quantum 
Computers at
our disposal, or rather the human race's AI successors will. Global warming 
is small
potatoes.


On this I agree with John. If anyone can be accused of luddism, its the technological 
singularity deniers, who believe technology progresses at a constant linear rate and 
are ignorant of projections of the coming intelligence explosion. The technological 
singularity will happen well before 2100, and if it doesn't, it will be because we've 
already wiped ourselves out.


For those unfamiliar with the concept, I recommend this as a good primer:

http://www.kurzweilai.net/the-law-of-accelerating-returns

An analysis of the history of technology shows that technological change is
exponential, contrary to the common-sense “intuitive linear” view. So we 
won’t
experience 100 years of progress in the 21st century — it will be more like 
20,000
years of progress (at today’s rate). The “returns,” such as chip speed and
cost-effectiveness, also increase exponentially. There’s even exponential 
growth in
the rate of exponential growth. Within a few decades, machine intelligence 
will
surpass human intelligence, leading to The Singularity — technological 
change so
rapid and profound it represents a rupture in the fabric of human history. 
The
implications include the merger of biological and nonbiological 
intelligence,
immortal software-based humans, and ultra-high levels of intelligence that 
expand
outward in the universe at the speed of light.


Jason
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For more

Re: real A.I.

We can speak of funding, but I am still being stubborn, regarding the need for 
technical development before we think of regulation. The biggest impediment to 
using thorium 232, are not regulations but fears of cost/price, safety, and 
proliferation. What we can also consider are the cost/price, safety, and 
terrorist issues for Betavoltaics, which I am certain you must be familiar 
with. Solar is stifled, not because of getting PV's up to speed, but the lack 
of attention to a necessity-storage. 


What about funding? If the elites wanted, they could make the banks loan money 
in exchange for a gigantic prize (this is one option). Say, develop a 
technically-and commercially perfect (adequate) means for replacing gasoline 
and diesel for vehicles. Money, Valuta, Cash. This is the incentive to win, to 
change. Otherwise, things will drag along. But, please, lets not regulate who 
owns property on the Moon, until people start settling there. That's my view. 
Tech first, Regulations last. 



-Original Message-
From: meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sun, Dec 14, 2014 2:22 pm
Subject: Re: real A.I.


  

Technology doesn't come by magic.   Nuclear power and photovoltaics were 
both developed by the  government.  Low emission automobiles were developed 
in response  to government regulation.  Sure technology is the solution to  
global warming, but technology takes development and development  takes 
money.  Regulations not only restrict things, they also  promote things.  
One of the impediments to building thorium based  nuclear powerplants is 
that there are not regulations for them.   If you propose building one the 
first thing investors, local  communities, local governments will ask is, 
Will it meet all the  safety requirments and regulations. There aren't 
any (except the  generic ones) so you can't get approval to build it.  This 
is a  problem only the federal government can overcome by doing the  
initial development and writing safety standards based on the  operation of 
pilot plants.  No capitalist is going to invest in  such a developmental 
project - it's too risky at the legal level  even if the technology were 
already developed (which it isn't).  
  
  Brent
  
  On 12/14/2014 7:45 AM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:


Theimportant thought to take away, is, rely on  technology to
perform a real world, Newtonian physics, reality. Do not rely on
Regulations for a fix, not by itself. Technology. It eitherworks or it 
doesn't. laws are words can always be made intolies, and deception. 



-Original  Message-
  From: Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com
  To: Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com
  Sent: Sat, Dec 13, 2014 1:10 pm
  Subject: Re: real A.I.
  
  


  


On Sat, Dec 13, 2014 at 10:44  AM, John Clark 
johnkcl...@gmail.com  wrote:  

On Sat, Dec 13, 2014meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net 
   wrote:  

  




  
  
  

  
 And deniers areluddite morons who think we 
 can fixglobal warming on short notice when it 
gets a lot worse but we can't screw it 
up in the meantime.
  
  

  

For heaven's sake, by 2100 we'll have  full 
Nanotechnology and Quantum Computers  at our 
disposal, or rather the human  race's AI successors 
will. Global warming  is small potatoes.  
  

  

  

  
  

  
  
On this I agree with John. If anyone can beaccused of 
luddism, its the technologicalsingularity deniers, who 
believe technologyprogresses at a constant linear rate and 
areignorant of projections of the coming intelligence   
 explosion. The technological singularity will happen   
 well before 2100

Re: real A.I.

2014-12-14 Thread Alberto G. Corona

In fact Einstein was the inventor of he photoelectric effect and nuclear
energy was really a robot invented by a burocrat of the Prusian state. Long
live to our Holy Leviatan

2014-12-14 20:22 GMT+01:00 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net:

  Technology doesn't come by magic.  Nuclear power and photovoltaics were
 both developed by the government.  Low emission automobiles were developed
 in response to government regulation.  Sure technology is the solution to
 global warming, but technology takes development and development takes
 money.  Regulations not only restrict things, they also promote things.
 One of the impediments to building thorium based nuclear powerplants is
 that there are not regulations for them.  If you propose building one the
 first thing investors, local communities, local governments will ask is,
 Will it meet all the safety requirments and regulations. There aren't any
 (except the generic ones) so you can't get approval to build it.  This is a
 problem only the federal government can overcome by doing the initial
 development and writing safety standards based on the operation of pilot
 plants.  No capitalist is going to invest in such a developmental project -
 it's too risky at the legal level even if the technology were already
 developed (which it isn't).

 Brent


 On 12/14/2014 7:45 AM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:

 The important thought to take away, is, rely on  technology to perform a
 real world, Newtonian physics, reality. Do not rely on Regulations for a
 fix, not by itself. Technology. It either works or it doesn't. laws are
 words can always be made into lies, and deception.


 -Original Message-
 From: Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com jasonre...@gmail.com
 To: Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com
 everything-list@googlegroups.com
 Sent: Sat, Dec 13, 2014 1:10 pm
 Subject: Re: real A.I.



 On Sat, Dec 13, 2014 at 10:44 AM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 On Sat, Dec 13, 2014 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:



  And deniers are luddite morons who think we can fix global warming on
 short notice when it gets a lot worse but we can't screw it up in the
 meantime.


  For heaven's sake, by 2100 we'll have full Nanotechnology and Quantum
 Computers at our disposal, or rather the human race's AI successors will.
 Global warming is small potatoes.


  On this I agree with John. If anyone can be accused of luddism, its the
 technological singularity deniers, who believe technology progresses at a
 constant linear rate and are ignorant of projections of the coming
 intelligence explosion. The technological singularity will happen well
 before 2100, and if it doesn't, it will be because we've already wiped
 ourselves out.

  For those unfamiliar with the concept, I recommend this as a good primer:

  http://www.kurzweilai.net/the-law-of-accelerating-returns

An analysis of the history of technology shows that technological
 change is exponential, contrary to the common-sense “intuitive linear”
 view. So we won’t experience 100 years of progress in the 21st century — it
 will be more like 20,000 years of progress (at today’s rate). The
 “returns,” such as chip speed and cost-effectiveness, also increase
 exponentially. There’s even exponential growth in the rate of exponential
 growth. Within a few decades, machine intelligence will surpass human
 intelligence, leading to The Singularity — technological change so rapid
 and profound it represents a rupture in the fabric of human history. The
 implications include the merger of biological and nonbiological
 intelligence, immortal software-based humans, and ultra-high levels of
 intelligence that expand outward in the universe at the speed of light.


  Jason
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Re: real A.I.

On 15 December 2014 at 08:22, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:

  Technology doesn't come by magic.  Nuclear power and photovoltaics were
 both developed by the government.  Low emission automobiles were developed
 in response to government regulation.  Sure technology is the solution to
 global warming, but technology takes development and development takes
 money.  Regulations not only restrict things, they also promote things.
 One of the impediments to building thorium based nuclear powerplants is
 that there are not regulations for them.  If you propose building one the
 first thing investors, local communities, local governments will ask is,
 Will it meet all the safety requirments and regulations. There aren't any
 (except the generic ones) so you can't get approval to build it.  This is a
 problem only the federal government can overcome by doing the initial
 development and writing safety standards based on the operation of pilot
 plants.  No capitalist is going to invest in such a developmental project -
 it's too risky at the legal level even if the technology were already
 developed (which it isn't).


And more broadly this is the reason why the let the market sort it out
response I read a few posts back won't work. The market is a bunch of
self-interested people trying to maximise profit. Only bodies which are
powerful and have the interests of the country / world / people at least
partly in their sights are capable of putting incentives in place that will
bring about the necessary long term results.

How do you develop a nuclear arsenal or put a man in space? Not through
private investment etc. You don't even get roads and railways and telephone
lines and power grids and hospitals (and a 100 other things) created - or
not created in a manner that is at all efficient - without some such
organisation. Relying on the market to sort things out is approximately the
same as treating what happens in A Christmas carol as your roadmap.

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Re: real A.I.



Sent from AOL Mobile Mail
 But the market is sorting it out. The reason you can see natural gas extracted 
from shale, has been back and possible challenges with solar and wind, the 
point now news articles suggesting the death of green energy as a result. 
Nuclear stockpile sort of thing . This is the ultimate apples and oranges 
comparison. Nuclear weapons are not consumer item at least not yet. We can 
surely develop technologies by government diktat, as the Nazis and Communists 
did the 20th century. Something like a constant electricity source, a constant 
source of transportation energy is a different thing because you're buying and 
using it all the time, unlike space shuttles. Governments do not do commodity 
products well.

-Original Message-
From: LizR lizj...@gmail.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sun, Dec 14, 2014 05:11 PM
Subject: Re: real A.I.



div id=AOLMsgPart_2_f9c614b8-b7f0-4dc7-87f4-2cca656d291e

 div dir=ltr
  div class=aolmail_gmail_extra
   div class=aolmail_gmail_quote
On 15 December 2014 at 08:22, meekerdb 
span dir=ltra target=_blank 
href=mailto:meeke...@verizon.net;meeke...@verizon.net/a/span wrote:


blockquote class=aolmail_gmail_quote style=margin:0px 0px 0px 
0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid
 
 
 
  div
Technology doesn't come by magic.  Nuclear power and photovoltaics were both 
developed by the government.  Low emission automobiles were developed in 
response to government regulation.  Sure technology is the solution to global 
warming, but technology takes development and development takes money.  
Regulations not only restrict things, they also promote things.  One of the 
impediments to building thorium based nuclear powerplants is that there are not 
regulations for them.  If you propose building one the first thing investors, 
local communities, local governments will ask is, Will it meet all the safety 
requirments and regulations. There aren't any (except the generic ones) so you 
can't get approval to build it.  This is a problem only the federal government 
can overcome by doing the initial development and writing safety standards 
based on the operation of pilot plants.  No capitalist is going to invest in 
such a developmental project - it's too risky at the legal level even if the 
technology were already developed (which it isn't).  
   
   
  
 /div
/blockquote


And more broadly this is the reason why the let the market sort it out 
response I read a few posts back won't work. The market is a bunch of 
self-interested people trying to maximise profit. Only bodies which are 
powerful and have the interests of the country / world / people at least partly 
in their sights are capable of putting incentives in place that will bring 
about the necessary long term results.



 




How do you develop a nuclear arsenal or put a man in space? Not through private 
investment etc. You don't even get roads and railways and telephone lines and 
power grids and hospitals (and a 100 other things) created - or not created in 
a manner that is at all efficient - without some such organisation. Relying on 
the market to sort things out is approximately the same as treating what 
happens in A Christmas carol as your roadmap.



 


   /div
   

  /div
 /div 
 p/p -- 
 
 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
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href=mailto:everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com;everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com/a.
 
 To post to this group, send email to 
 a target=_blank 
href=mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com;everything-list@googlegroups.com/a.
 
 Visit this group at 
 a target=_blank 
href=http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list;http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list/a.
 
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Re: real A.I.

2014-12-13 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

On 15 December 2014 at 13:57, spudboy100 via Everything List 
everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote:


 Sent from AOL Mobile Mail
  But the market is sorting it out.


Excuse me while I ROFL

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Re: real A.I.

2014-12-13 Thread spudboy100 via Everything List


Its taking a problem, like global warming, and exaggerating that problem, so as 
to impose regulation. Its regulation, as the power to control. You want to 
fight global warming, then invent and distribute better energy systems. This is 
not being done in a truly, sincere, way, otherwise we'd have seen tens of 
billions of dollars, per year,  funding alternate energy, rather than a few 
billion. Paltry. What has been demanded is regulation. Doing things this way 
doesn't indicate rushing to fix a problem, but rushing to regulate the US. 


My prediction is that in the US,with the handing of the power to regulate to 
the UN,  you'd see a back-reaction, against the political elites, that champion 
regulations, and not funding research sufficiently. The oil and coal companies 
that are despised, would then win, handily. 


-Original Message-
From: meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, Dec 12, 2014 4:47 pm
Subject: Re: real A.I.


  

On 12/12/2014 12:02 PM, 'Chris de  Morsella' via Everything List wrote:


  

Alberto...  you sound like someone who is convinced that the black  
helicopters are coming for you. Since you seem to thrive on  
paranoia and fear, let me give you some more fodder to fuel  the mental 
fires of the paranoia squirming around inside your  mind.




Here is  another scary fear your godless UN elites can enslave the  
masses with.




Gamma-Ray BurstCaused Mass Extinction?


  

  

  
 

  
  

  
 


  



  
 


  
 


  
 


  
 


  
 

  
  

  

Gamma-Ray  Burst Caused Mass Extinction?
  
A streamof gamma rays aimed at Earth may have caused a  
  mass die-off 440 million years ago, according to  
  a new paper that says a similar celestial
catastrophe could...

  

  
  



  
  

  
View on  news.nationalgeograph...


  
Preview by Yahoo

  
  



  
  

  
 

  

  


 

  


Mass extinction...Alberto would be all for that.  He'd just beagainst 
doing anything to stop it.  Anybody who'd propose that is apinko atheist 
commy set on world domination.

Brent
  

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Re: real A.I.

2014-12-13 Thread zibblequibble



On Saturday, December 13, 2014 7:01:01 AM UTC, Brent wrote:

  On 12/12/2014 9:35 PM, John Clark wrote:
  
 On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 5:23 PM, meekerdb meek...@verizon.net 
 javascript: wrote:
  
   Nobody bothered to explain that it might have been volcanoes or 
 asteroid strikes as well as oribtal variations and they did that because 
 it's completely irrelevant to current global warming.  We know that CO2 has 
 increased from 300ppm to 450ppm and that we put about twice that amount 
 into the atmosphere. 


  But nobody has a solution for excess CO2 that won't kill far far more 
 people than climate warming ever will, or at least environmentalists 
 don't.  
   

 Donald McKay, withouthotair.com, has spelled out exactly what it will 
 take and it doesn't kill anybody and it doesn't cost anymore than a small 
 war.  In fact everybody knows what the solutions are, it doesn't take some 
 future discovery.  It just takes the will to demote fossil fuel to few 
 specialized applications.

   Environmentalists don't have solutions for anything because 
 environmentalists are silly irrational people who mix ridiculous pessimism 
 (global warming will kill us all) with ridiculous optimism (windmills will 
 save us all) and who believe it's a virtue to think with your gut and not 
 with your brain.
   

 And deniers are luddite morons who think we can fix global warming on 
 short notice when it gets a lot worse but we can't screw it up in the 
 meantime.
 

   
So how the Earth warmed or cooled in the distant past is ust your 
 attempt at diversion.
  

  It's a diversion from the fantasy that the Earth's climate has always 
 been the same and there is one true temperature that everything should be 
 at.
   

 Which is another bullshit attempt at diversion.  It's completely 
 irrelevant to whether a 4degC global temperature increase over 50yrs will 
 cause extensive suffering, death and economic damage.  And note that 4degC 
 increase is. I the projected worldwide average increase as of 2100.  The 
 oceans tend to lag, so that corresponds to a 5 or 6degC increase over the 
 continents.  And it doesn't mean the temperature increase goes to +4degC 
 and then stops.  Under your do-nothing scenario it will still be rapidly 
 increasing as it crosses through +4degC in 2100.


We don't actually know the  rate of temperature increase will be rapid. 
You'll know the  relation Co2 increasing in the atmosphere and the rate 
more energy is trapped directly resulting, is logarithmic, which pushes 
everything to the feedbacks, which gets you to where the scientific 
challenge really is.. An abstract theory of the earth system is going to 
necessary. If there's no feedbacks, everything becomes about this century 
in isolation. Can we take the hit? 

One unsatisfactory but reasonable to think roughly true all the same, is 
that we are going to take the hit now whatever we do next. The window for 
totally solving climate andmaking the process a money making, productivity 
booming, full blown revolution. WHICH is exactly what AMERICA would and 
could have done. She did 4 or 5 times last century. Saved the whole fucking 
world, then nailed that solution hard into history by dropping new 
technologies, new economics and new ways for people to make money, or at 
least hay, rather than killing and eating each other. 

America could have pulled it off in the 1990's, because those were single 
superpower days. China, India, everyone knew they were going to be showing 
up one day not too far in the future, but they hadn't yet, and they'd do as 
they were told by the superpower lile everyone else. 

Those shitty denialist campaigns...they didn't have to win, they only had 
to delay a few years And they succeed. They won...like 20 years ago. Why 
are you being so heated with John Clark on this matter? It doesn't 
matter. Sure, he's not in the spirit of rationality on this matter. Then 
again most people have their areas, they totally fail the scientific and 
rational way to be. That's his. Why even bother having the debate with him? 

I tease John  in climate debates.. Not with the slightest edge of 
hostility. He's entertaining...and clearly has no control over himself and 
no awareness how transparent and self-evident the intellectual 
deviance actually is, It's like he's walking around with no seat area in 
his trousers, with his big hairy naked ass hanging out the back, but 
thinking no one can see it.  

lHow rational and in keeping with spirit are YOU? You totally exclude me, 
and you totally do it in the most obvious and emotionally hurtful way that 
you can. Yet you can't do that on the climate subject for John. Your mate 
Bruce was ignoring from moment one. And that means you briefed him before 
hand  and got ignoring me. 

The normal way to ignore some doesn't want them to realize, So it's 
about doing the minimum...because normally the person is dull or whatever 
and we don't want their attentions. that isn't what

Re: real A.I.

2014-12-13 Thread spudboy100 via Everything List



And deniers are luddite morons who think we can fix global warmingon short 
notice when it gets a lot worse but we can't screw it up inthe meantime.
Your fix is regulate now, so that in the far future it can all be nice? Why 
regulate north america, and the eu, and not the BRIC's or indonesia, etc? For 
this is what will happen, in reality. Regulating is your fix, rather than 
technology? I'd focus on substituting better power sources, rather than order 
people about, and this would be worldwide. What's the incentive for China to 
shut down coal burning? Regulate?  



-Original Message-
From: meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sat, Dec 13, 2014 2:01 am
Subject: Re: real A.I.


  

On 12/12/2014 9:35 PM, John Clark  wrote:


  
On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 5:23 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.netwrote:

  


  
Nobody bothered to explain that it might have been 
volcanoes or asteroid strikes as well as oribtalvariations 
 and they did that because it's completelyirrelevant to 
 current global warming.  We know that CO2has increased from 
 300ppm to 450ppm and that we putabout twice that amount into 
 the atmosphere. 





But nobody has a solution for excess CO2 that won't  kill far far 
more people than climate warming ever will,  or at least 
environmentalists don't.  
  

  


Donald McKay, withouthotair.com, has spelled out exactly what itwill 
take and it doesn't kill anybody and it doesn't cost anymorethan a small 
war.  In fact everybody knows what the solutions are,it doesn't take some 
future discovery.  It just takes the will todemote fossil fuel to few 
specialized applications.


  

  

Environmentalists don't have solutions for anything  because 
environmentalists are silly irrational people who  mix ridiculous 
pessimism (global warming will kill us all)  with ridiculous 
optimism (windmills will save us all) and  who believe it's a 
virtue to think with your gut and not  with your brain.

  

  


And deniers are luddite morons who think we can fix global warmingon 
short notice when it gets a lot worse but we can't screw it up inthe 
meantime.


  

  




  
  So how theEarth warmed or cooled in the distant past is just 
  yourattempt at diversion.
  





It's a diversion from the fantasy that the Earth's  climate has 
always been the same and there is one true  temperature that 
everything should be at.

  

  


Which is another bullshit attempt at diversion.  It's completely
irrelevant to whether a 4degC global temperature increase over 50yrswill 
cause extensive suffering, death and economic damage.  And notethat 4degC 
increase is the projected worldwide average increase asof 2100.  The oceans 
tend to lag, so that corresponds to a 5 or6degC increase over the 
continents.  And it doesn't mean thetemperature increase goes to +4degC and 
then stops.  Under yourdo-nothing scenario it will still be rapidly 
increasing as itcrosses through +4degC in 2100.

Brent

  

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Re: real A.I.

2014-12-13 Thread John Clark

On Sat, Dec 13, 2014 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:


   But nobody has a solution for excess CO2 that won't kill far far more
 people than climate warming ever will, or at least environmentalists
 don't.

Donald McKay, without.com http://withouthotair.com, has spelled out
 exactly what it will take and it doesn't kill anybody


If everything works exactly as he says it will, but would it be wise to bet
the lives of billions of people that this bozo who I've never heard of is
right?

 and it doesn't cost anymore than a small war.  In fact everybody knows
 what the solutions are, it doesn't take some future discovery.  It just
 takes the will to demote fossil fuel to few specialized applications.


Oh yes, blast furnaces can be powered by windmills and cars can use water
for fuel and a great solution to all environmental and energy and economic
problems has long been known but a evil conspiracy stops anyone from
implementing it.  And there is a dead space alien and his flying saucer at
area 51.

 It's a diversion from the fantasy that the Earth's climate has always
 been the same and there is one true temperature that everything should be
 at.



 Which is another bullshit attempt at diversion.


 A diversion away from ignorance is not bullshit.


  And note that 4degC increase is the projected worldwide average increase
 as of 2100.


And we're supposed to make RADICAL changes to the world economy right now
because people who make their living off of environmental fears and
ignoramuses who wants to ban genetically modified crops and nuclear power
says things will be bad in 85 years.

 And deniers are luddite morons who think we can fix global warming on
 short notice when it gets a lot worse but we can't screw it up in the
 meantime.


For heaven's sake, by 2100 we'll have full Nanotechnology and Quantum
Computers at our disposal, or rather the human race's AI successors will.
Global warming is small potatoes.

  John K Clark

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Re: real A.I.

2014-12-13 Thread meekerdb

On 12/13/2014 3:05 AM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:

Its taking a problem, like global warming, and exaggerating that problem, so as to
impose regulation. Its regulation, as the power to control. You want to fight global
warming, then invent and distribute better energy systems. This is not being done in a
truly, sincere, way, otherwise we'd have seen tens of billions of dollars, per year,
funding alternate energy, rather than a few billion. Paltry. What has been demanded is
regulation. Doing things this way doesn't indicate rushing to fix a problem, but rushing
to regulate the US.

The regulation has been carbon tax and carbon emission trading, i.e. economic incentives
to push the market into investing in alternative energy. It's part of U.S. libertarian
dogma that the government cannot do anything right, all regulation is evil, and the market
is always the solution.

My prediction is that in the US,with the handing of the power to regulate to the UN,
you'd see a back-reaction, against the political elites, that champion regulations, and
not funding research sufficiently. The oil and coal companies that are despised, would
then win, handily.

What do you mean then, they're winning handily now.

Brent

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Re: real A.I.

2014-12-13 Thread Telmo Menezes

On Sat, Dec 13, 2014 at 5:57 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:

  On 12/13/2014 3:05 AM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:


 Its taking a problem, like global warming, and exaggerating that problem,
 so as to impose regulation. Its regulation, as the power to control. You
 want to fight global warming, then invent and distribute better energy
 systems. This is not being done in a truly, sincere, way, otherwise we'd
 have seen tens of billions of dollars, per year,  funding alternate energy,
 rather than a few billion. Paltry. What has been demanded is regulation.
 Doing things this way doesn't indicate rushing to fix a problem, but
 rushing to regulate the US.


 The regulation has been carbon tax and carbon emission trading, i.e.
 economic incentives to push the market into investing in alternative
 energy.  It's part of U.S. libertarian dogma that the government cannot do
 anything right, all regulation is evil, and the market is always the
 solution.


From an outsider's perspective, I must assume that this is a dogma in the
same sense that catholic priests should not have sex is a dogma...




  My prediction is that in the US,with the handing of the power to
 regulate to the UN,  you'd see a back-reaction, against the political
 elites, that champion regulations, and not funding research sufficiently.
 The oil and coal companies that are despised, would then win, handily.


 What do you mean then, they're winning handily now.

 Brent

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Re: real A.I.

2014-12-13 Thread Jason Resch

On Sat, Dec 13, 2014 at 10:44 AM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Sat, Dec 13, 2014 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:



  And deniers are luddite morons who think we can fix global warming on
 short notice when it gets a lot worse but we can't screw it up in the
 meantime.


 For heaven's sake, by 2100 we'll have full Nanotechnology and Quantum
 Computers at our disposal, or rather the human race's AI successors will.
 Global warming is small potatoes.


On this I agree with John. If anyone can be accused of luddism, its the
technological singularity deniers, who believe technology progresses at a
constant linear rate and are ignorant of projections of the coming
intelligence explosion. The technological singularity will happen well
before 2100, and if it doesn't, it will be because we've already wiped
ourselves out.

For those unfamiliar with the concept, I recommend this as a good primer:

http://www.kurzweilai.net/the-law-of-accelerating-returns

An analysis of the history of technology shows that technological change is
exponential, contrary to the common-sense “intuitive linear” view. So we
won’t experience 100 years of progress in the 21st century — it will be
more like 20,000 years of progress (at today’s rate). The “returns,” such
as chip speed and cost-effectiveness, also increase exponentially. There’s
even exponential growth in the rate of exponential growth. Within a few
decades, machine intelligence will surpass human intelligence, leading to
The Singularity — technological change so rapid and profound it represents
a rupture in the fabric of human history. The implications include the
merger of biological and nonbiological intelligence, immortal
software-based humans, and ultra-high levels of intelligence that expand
outward in the universe at the speed of light.


Jason

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Re: real A.I.

2014-12-13 Thread John Clark

On Fri, Dec 12, 2014  LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote:

 The point is that none of these previous events involved such rapid
 change as we're seeing now, but even if they did, so what? We know what's
 going on, it isn't hard to monitor. We've known how the greenhouse effect
 works for more than 2 centuries, we can measure the amount of carbon
 dioxide in the atmosphere, we know it's gone up just over 40% since the
 industrial revolution, we have a reasonable model of the likely results


We can't even answer very basic questions about our planet's climate.
Clouds are what determines how much of the sun's energy gets reflected back
into space and how much is retained to drive the planet's weather machine,
so will increasing temperature cause more clouds or less? If all things are
the same (and they're not see below) increasing air temperature will cause
more water to evaporate into the air from the seas, but higher temperature
also means the air can hold more water until clouds must form. And although
you'd never know it by listening to environmentalists, water vapor (but not
liquid water droplets or ice particles) is by far the most important
greenhouse gas, vastly more important than CO2, and unlike CO2 water
undergoes phase changes from gas to liquid to solid and that makes it
enormously more complicated to figure out than CO2.

And everybody talks about global warming but there is something else going
on too, global dimming. For reasons that are not clearly understood but may
be related to clouds, at any given temperature it takes longer now for
water to evaporate than it did 50 years ago.

 John K Clark

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RE: real A.I.

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of John Clark
Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2014 10:42 AM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: real A.I.

On Fri, Dec 12, 2014  LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote:

 The point is that none of these previous events involved such rapid change as 
 we're seeing now, but even if they did, so what? We know what's going on, it 
 isn't hard to monitor. We've known how the greenhouse effect works for more 
 than 2 centuries, we can measure the amount of carbon dioxide in the 
 atmosphere, we know it's gone up just over 40% since the industrial 
 revolution, we have a reasonable model of the likely results

We can't even answer very basic questions about our planet's climate. Clouds 
are what determines how much of the sun's energy gets reflected back into 
space and how much is retained to drive the planet's weather machine, so will 
increasing temperature cause more clouds or less? 

Not just clouds… the extent of the Arctic and Antarctic sea ice and snow pack 
has a large effect by affecting the earth’s albedo.

If all things are the same (and they're not see below) increasing air 
temperature will cause more water to evaporate into the air from the seas, but 
higher temperature also means the air can hold more water until clouds must 
form. And although you'd never know it by listening to environmentalists, water 
vapor (but not liquid water droplets or ice particles) is by far the most 
important greenhouse gas, vastly more important than CO2, and unlike CO2 water 
undergoes phase changes from gas to liquid to solid and that makes it 
enormously more complicated to figure out than CO2. 

CO2 has an outsized effect because it is opaque at IR frequencies in which 
water vapor is clear – i.e. it acts in concert with water vapor to close what 
had been an available window --in those IR frequencies  -- for heat to escape 
out into the ultimate heat sink of outer space. In order to understand how CO2 
acts in the atmosphere you need to understand this interaction with water 
vapor. Dipolar gases are opaque to light at different frequencies. CO2 closes I 
believe it is two IR frequency windows, which the major global warming dipolar 
gas – e.g. water – leaves open.

And everybody talks about global warming but there is something else going on 
too, global dimming. For reasons that are not clearly understood but may be 
related to clouds, at any given temperature it takes longer now for water to 
evaporate than it did 50 years ago.

Global dimming – from what I have read is largely related to particulates and 
SO2 released by human industrial and agricultural activities (the large scale 
burning to clear land for palm oil plantations in SE Asia for example)

Chris

 John K Clark

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RE: real A.I.

2014-12-13 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] 
Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2014 3:05 AM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: real A.I.

Its taking a problem, like global warming, and exaggerating that problem, so as 
to impose regulation. Its regulation, as the power to control. You want to 
fight global warming, then invent and distribute better energy systems. This is 
not being done in a truly, sincere, way, otherwise we'd have seen tens of 
billions of dollars, per year,  funding alternate energy, rather than a few 
billion. Paltry. What has been demanded is regulation. Doing things this way 
doesn't indicate rushing to fix a problem, but rushing to regulate the US.  

Sometimes regulation is good. We have laws and regulations, often for some 
pretty sound reasons. Of course it is abused and the regulators need to 
themselves remain regulated. And I agree that onerous petty regulations are 
awful and often serve nefarious occult purposes, such as restricting access to 
markets etc. that have nothing to do with the stated purpose of these 
regulations

However we need a framework of regulation and Law in order to operate in 
complex societies; they serve a purpose and I, for one am glad that we do have 
some of the laws and regulations we do have in place… others not so much.

Our main problem is not regulation, but corruption (which often uses regulation 
as a useful tool in order to obtain its ends) – in our system we have a 
revolving door between the regulators and the special interests they allegedly 
are intended to regulate. This incestuous relationship has led us to a system 
of government where the special interests seem to essentially write the Bills 
that – often almost verbatim – become passed into law by our corrupt political 
(and judicial) bodies.

What we are lacking – IMO – is regulation of the regulators. The system has 
become corrupt. Corrupt regulation is really better lumped in with corruption 
rather than regulation, to recognize it for what its end run purpose is! It is 
corruption using regulation as a tool for achieving corrupt outcomes.

Regulations and Laws are tools societies use in order to promote goals and 
proscribe certain behaviors and practices. Sometimes they are good; other times 
they are bad. Like any tool it depends how they are used. One can employ a 
hammer to drive in nails to construct a house… or to smash somebodies skull 
during a violent robbery. Hammers are not bad or good per se… they are tools.

-Chris

My prediction is that in the US,with the handing of the power to regulate to 
the UN,  you'd see a back-reaction, against the political elites, that champion 
regulations, and not funding research sufficiently. The oil and coal companies 
that are despised, would then win, handily. 

-Original Message-
From: meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, Dec 12, 2014 4:47 pm
Subject: Re: real A.I.

On 12/12/2014 12:02 PM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List wrote:

Alberto... you sound like someone who is convinced that the black helicopters 
are coming for you. Since you seem to thrive on paranoia and fear, let me give 
you some more fodder to fuel the mental fires of the paranoia squirming around 
inside your mind.

Here is another scary fear your godless UN elites can enslave the masses with.

Gamma-Ray Burst Caused Mass Extinction? 
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/04/090403-gamma-ray-extinction.html

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/04/090403-gamma-ray-extinction.html
 image

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/04/090403-gamma-ray-extinction.html
 Gamma-Ray Burst Caused Mass Extinction? 

A stream of gamma rays aimed at Earth may have caused a mass die-off 440 
million years ago, according to a new paper that says a similar celestial 
catastrophe could...

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/04/090403-gamma-ray-extinction.html
 View on news.nationalgeograph...

Preview by Yahoo

Mass extinction...Alberto would be all for that.  He'd just be against doing 
anything to stop it.  Anybody who'd propose that is a pinko atheist commy set 
on world domination.

Brent

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RE: real A.I.

2014-12-13 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Jason Resch
Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2014 10:11 AM
To: Everything List
Subject: Re: real A.I.

On Sat, Dec 13, 2014 at 10:44 AM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Sat, Dec 13, 2014 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:

 And deniers are luddite morons who think we can fix global warming on short 
 notice when it gets a lot worse but we can't screw it up in the meantime.

For heaven's sake, by 2100 we'll have full Nanotechnology and Quantum Computers 
at our disposal, or rather the human race's AI successors will. Global warming 
is small potatoes.  

On this I agree with John. If anyone can be accused of luddism, its the 
technological singularity deniers, who believe technology progresses at a 
constant linear rate and are ignorant of projections of the coming intelligence 
explosion. The technological singularity will happen well before 2100, and if 
it doesn't, it will be because we've already wiped ourselves out.

Jason, I first got into Kurzweil around a decade ago and my thinking on this 
has become more nuanced over the years. Would like to make two related points.

The first being that there are two races going on concurrently, with one being 
the race of the increasing pace of technological/scientific development that 
will – act together in concert in a synergistic manner, according to the 
Singularity hypothesis – to accelerate the pace of change. But there is another 
race occurring on our planet, which is the race towards planetary scale 
resource depletion, biodegradation, and overpopulation. Which race will win the 
race? The pace of Singularity could falter and collapse if the industrial 
scale, supply chain linked networks of vertically integrated systems, upon 
which technology ultimately depends, begins to fall apart at the wheels, due to 
the cumulative effects of multiple resource bottlenecks… of food system 
collapse due to high dependence on petrochemical inputs (which will become 
priced out of reach for more and more farmers), top soil loss, evolution of 
super-weeds, resistant insects and other pests (due to overuse of pesticides 
and petro-chemical enabled industrial scale mono-cropping practices).

Our current situation is highly complex and multi-factor-dependent. It is not 
as simple – IMO – as Singularity is inevitable. As I have argued above there 
are many ways large scale collapse could be triggered… a large scale war in 
Eurasia could do the trick for example.

Secondly singularity is not proceeding at an equal – or even a geometric pace 
-- across all facets of technology. I work in IT, and am looking at multi-core 
laptops with TB solid state HDs etc. so I am right smack in the middle of 
Moore’s Law land. It is a constant learning process to keep up with the rapid 
pace of change in my field. But Moore’s Law does not apply equally across the 
landscape of technology. For example the pace of battery technology as measured 
say by gravimetric capacity. If we base line capacity at 1859, when Gaston 
Planté first invented the lead acid battery and graph the pace at which 
capacity has improved we will not see the geometric curve we see with Moore’s 
Law, rather it will look much more linear and be comparatively flat. Similarly 
for ICE engines (the very best ICE engines still only get about 20%-25% useful 
work with the rest being wasted in a thermal tailpipe). Graph improvements to 
ICE efficiency from the Model T to today. We do not get Moore’s Law; we get an 
almost flat linear progression of incremental improvements. There is a long 
list of critical technologies which have proven quite resistant to Moore’s Law.

Technological progress and the pace of technological progress is lumpy; in some 
areas it is racing ahead along the Moore’s Law vortex towards Singularity (one 
of these areas is Solar PV, which does follow a Moore’s Law geometric doubling 
graph). But in many other areas – areas that are also of critical importance to 
overall system performance – the pace has been stubbornly linear and the slope 
of change has remained painfully flat.

When I was a kid I thought we would have Mars Colonies by now. Are the rocket 
engines we make today all that much improved over the Apollo rocket engines? 
How is Singularity coming along in rocket engine technology?

Perhaps, in the end this does not matter and some disruptive technology will 
arise and change the landscape; I am agnostic. Am intrigued about additive 
manufacturing as being that disruptive technology, but that is a whole other 
thread.

My second point can be summarized with the word lumpy. The pace of change is 
lumpy. In some areas it is rapid and graphs along a geometric curve; while in 
others it is linear and often the linear slope is not much more than flat. 

-Chris

For those unfamiliar with the concept, I recommend this as a good primer:

http

Re: real A.I.

2014-12-13 Thread LizR

On 14 December 2014 at 09:48, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List 
everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote:



 For heaven's sake, by 2100 we'll have full Nanotechnology and Quantum
 Computers at our disposal, or rather the human race's AI successors will.
 Global warming is small potatoes.

I do hope you're right, however predicting the future has proved extremely
hard in the past. It doesn't look like my son will have a hoverboard by
next year, and I'm still waiting for underwater cities and clothes made out
of bacofoil. (And nuclear fusion, teleporters, stasis fields and psychic
powers.)

We don't know if nanotech can work as Drexler, Kurtzweil et al suggest - it
may only be possible the way life already does it, where you get big bags
of molecules to bump around and rely on the statistical certainty of
collision. That doesn't build many diamond hulled spaceships. And we don't
know if quantum computers are scalable - decoherence appears to be fairly
rampant in the warm world we inhabit.

So global warming is small potatoes IF all the wonders of science fiction
come to pass, but history suggests at least some of them won't. It also
suggests that unexpected things may happen - nuclear bombs and, computers,
for two obvious examples - and that expected things may happen with enough
political will and huge efforts (people in space - probes on other planets
- people on the Moon, etc). But the latter don't live up to the of
expectations SF, and the former exceed them.

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Re: real A.I.

2014-12-13 Thread meekerdb


On 12/13/2014 10:42 AM, John Clark wrote:

On Fri, Dec 12, 2014  LizR lizj...@gmail.com mailto:lizj...@gmail.com wrote:

 The point is that none of these previous events involved such rapid 
change as
we're seeing now, but even if they did, so what? We know what's going on, 
it isn't
hard to monitor. We've known how the greenhouse effect works for more than 2
centuries, we can measure the amount of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, 
we know
it's gone up just over 40% since the industrial revolution, we have a 
reasonable
model of the likely results


We can't even answer very basic questions about our planet's climate. Clouds are what 
determines how much of the sun's energy gets reflected back into space and how much is 
retained to drive the planet's weather machine, so will increasing temperature cause 
more clouds or less? If all things are the same (and they're not see below) increasing 
air temperature will cause more water to evaporate into the air from the seas, but 
higher temperature also means the air can hold more water until clouds must form. And 
although you'd never know it by listening to environmentalists, water vapor (but not 
liquid water droplets or ice particles) is by far the most important greenhouse gas,


It's more effective as a greenhouse gas.  But it's not more important than CO2 because it 
tracks ocean surface temperature. Burning fossil fuel puts lots of water vapor into the 
atmosphere too, but it condenses out before it rises to heights from which IR can escape 
directly to space.


vastly more important than CO2, and unlike CO2 water undergoes phase changes from gas to 
liquid to solid and that makes it enormously more complicated to figure out than CO2.


And everybody talks about global warming but there is something else going on too, 
global dimming. For reasons that are not clearly understood but may be related to 
clouds, at any given temperature it takes longer now for water to evaporate than it did 
50 years ago.


Citation?

Brent

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Re: real A.I.

2014-12-13 Thread spudboy100 via Everything List



Sent from AOL Mobile Mail

 I don't think it's just my opinion it's observation shows that most often 
governments to do a poor job . Plus point of my commentary is fat or 
regulations not solve this problem. If we were to listen to rapidly develop 
replacement energy systems like that we could! This will obviate the need for 
further regulations. Suspicious of those want regulations of United States of 
the and don't care about the rest of the world polluting. Libertarianism is 
just a method and not a goal. If big government mindset can achieve results or 
should I oppose? 
 

-Original Message-
From: meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sat, Dec 13, 2014 11:57 AM
Subject: Re: real A.I.



div id=AOLMsgPart_2_6ca3fc12-7240-474c-9304-679bdb2a8475
div bgcolor=#FF text=#00 class=aolReplacedBody 
 div class=aolmail_moz-cite-prefix
On 12/13/2014 3:05 AM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:
  
 
  
 blockquote cite=about:blank
  font color=black face=arial size=2
 Its taking a problem, like global warming, and exaggerating that problem, so 
as to impose regulation. Its regulation, as the power to control. You want to 
fight global warming, then invent and distribute better energy systems. This is 
not being done in a truly, sincere, way, otherwise we'd have seen tens of 
billions of dollars, per year,  funding alternate energy, rather than a few 
billion. Paltry. What has been demanded is regulation. Doing things this way 
doesn't indicate rushing to fix a problem, but rushing to regulate the US.  
/font
 /blockquote 
 
 The regulation has been carbon tax and carbon emission trading, i.e. 
economic incentives to push the market into investing in alternative energy.  
It's part of U.S. libertarian dogma that the government cannot do anything 
right, all regulation is evil, and the market is always the solution.  
 
 
 
 
 blockquote cite=about:blank
  font color=black face=arial size=2 
   


 

   

My prediction is that in the US,with the handing of the power to regulate to 
the UN,  you'd see a back-reaction, against the political elites, that champion 
regulations, and not funding research sufficiently. The oil and coal companies 
that are despised, would then win, handily. 

 
/font
 /blockquote 
 
 What do you mean then, they're winning handily now.
 
 
 
 Brent
 
 
 p/p -- 
 
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Re: real A.I.

The key point is not energy, but power. Political power.



2014-12-12 7:20 GMT+01:00 John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com:

 On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 3:41 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:


  We and other species could no doubt adapt to the much warmer climate of
 the Carboniferous era - but not in a few hundred years.


 When things got super hot life adapted, and we're far more intelligent
 than anything that lived during the Carboniferous and the specialty of
 intelligence is being good at adapting quickly to changing environmental
 conditions.


Did that revelation come to you in a dream? You know why the Earth
 was super cold 450 million years ago and super hot 360 million years ago
 and everything in-between since?

   No it came to me reading about the Milankovich cycles.

 Please explain how ether the 21,000 or 26,000 or 41,000 year Milankovitch
 cycle can explain why the Earth was  colder than it's ever been 450
 million years ago and hotter than any time in the last two billion years
 360 million years ago.


  No person who doesn't make his living feeding environmental panic says
 the global temperature is going to rise 4.5degK anytime soon,

   It's the 95% upper confidence bound of the IPCC projection for 2100.


 Bureaucratic agencies have a survival instinct, if people thought there
 was no need to be in a environmental panic there would be no reason for a
 agency like the IPCC to exist, and I don't give a damn if they're confident
 I only care if they're correct and predictions about what things will be
 like in 85 years almost never are. For heavens sake that's like demanding
 that the Wright Brothers find a solution to airport congestion; if in 85
 years global warming turns out to be a real problem our toolkit for fixing
 things will be VASTLY larger and more powerful than it is now, and in the
 meantime there are plenty of more important problems that need fixing right
 now.



  Bullshit.  You're just making up straw man environmentalist.  One of
 my close friends is president of the Sierra Club and he's *for* nuclear
 power.


 We've been down this road before.  I don't know who your mystery friend is
 but I do know that the Sierra Club official website says:

 The Sierra Club remains unequivocally opposed to nuclear energy.

  And even those who are against it only hold that opinion because they
 think solar and wind can replace oil.


 Then they are fools.

   John K Clark

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Re: real A.I.

There is hope anyway. For example slip the attention of the power hungry
and their pawns, the obsessive people with other menaces. For example, the
possible impact of an asteroid:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aGMDMNeWh0

To divert world efforts to create a body of the UN to conjure that menace.
That way the heads of state and the megaburocracies can meet, they can
increase taxes, they can marry their sons among them, the mases will be
indoctrinated and will be happy with the new fears watching the TV.
scientifics that are deniers of the asteroid consensus would be harrassed
by prominent figures of the mass media and everyone will be happy.

But I´m affraid that this would not work, unless the asteroid require
harder sacrifices to the political elite, more than taxes. for example
blood sacrifices. For example abortions in masse. That is the attractive of
ecologism and global warming: The commitment to the cause produced by blood
sacrifices and the consequent psychological slavement of women. Once you
alienate women from their men, you have enslaved a country.


2014-12-12 11:43 GMT+01:00 Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com:

 The key point is not energy, but power. Political power.



 2014-12-12 7:20 GMT+01:00 John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com:

 On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 3:41 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:


  We and other species could no doubt adapt to the much warmer climate
 of the Carboniferous era - but not in a few hundred years.


 When things got super hot life adapted, and we're far more intelligent
 than anything that lived during the Carboniferous and the specialty of
 intelligence is being good at adapting quickly to changing environmental
 conditions.


Did that revelation come to you in a dream? You know why the Earth
 was super cold 450 million years ago and super hot 360 million years ago
 and everything in-between since?

   No it came to me reading about the Milankovich cycles.

 Please explain how ether the 21,000 or 26,000 or 41,000 year
 Milankovitch cycle can explain why the Earth was  colder than it's ever
 been 450 million years ago and hotter than any time in the last two billion
 years 360 million years ago.


  No person who doesn't make his living feeding environmental panic
 says the global temperature is going to rise 4.5degK anytime soon,

   It's the 95% upper confidence bound of the IPCC projection for
 2100.


 Bureaucratic agencies have a survival instinct, if people thought there
 was no need to be in a environmental panic there would be no reason for
 a agency like the IPCC to exist, and I don't give a damn if they're
 confident I only care if they're correct and predictions about what things
 will be like in 85 years almost never are. For heavens sake that's like
 demanding that the Wright Brothers find a solution to airport congestion;
 if in 85 years global warming turns out to be a real problem our toolkit
 for fixing things will be VASTLY larger and more powerful than it is now,
 and in the meantime there are plenty of more important problems that need
 fixing right now.



  Bullshit.  You're just making up straw man environmentalist.  One of
 my close friends is president of the Sierra Club and he's *for* nuclear
 power.


 We've been down this road before.  I don't know who your mystery friend
 is but I do know that the Sierra Club official website says:

 The Sierra Club remains unequivocally opposed to nuclear energy.

  And even those who are against it only hold that opinion because they
 think solar and wind can replace oil.


 Then they are fools.

   John K Clark

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 --
 Alberto.



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Re: real A.I.



On Thursday, December 11, 2014 8:02:23 PM UTC, John Clark wrote:

 On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 10:37 PM, meekerdb meek...@verizon.net 
 javascript: wrote:

  What evidence can you cite that in the past the Earth's temperature has 
 risen more than 0.7degK in 40yrs?

  
 Except for the Ordovician period 450 million years ago and a few very 
 brief ice ages during the last few hundred thousand years the last billion 
 years has always been warmer than now, occasionally MUCH warmer.  In the 
 last billion years it has never been warmer than during the Carboniferous 
 Era 360 million years ago, and I don't believe life has ever been quite 
 that lush and plentiful again.


John - the eco-system in the Carboniferous Era  was whole levels less 
complex than now. We live in the period of most complexity. If you actually 
visited the Carboniferous what would strike (just before the other thing 
behind you ate you) the mot would be how little diversity there was. There 
were no flowers, ferns  carpeted a lot of the planet. No bees. much less in 
the sky. 

And animals were much more simple, and they were all cold blooded. Don't 
get me wrong, they had a great life. They loved eating each-other. ,

Not that it isn't an interesting theory though. You're sort of lining up 
epochs like the Carnivorous, surveying their responses to steamy hot 
period.. Finding they wee making hy bby. So then what we is use the market 
reactions of the pre-amphibian meg tongues, and the humungus mcfungi 
crocahungergonnaeatas,they definitely kept coming back to the steamy 
stinky outdoor bathing lidos and it was blasted hot there

Yes. I'm on board. We use that as proxy for the situation now. John, johnny 
boy, gosh I do fancy you roitten


  But in this case we don't need to look for super complex factors.  We 
 know exactly how much CO2 we've added to the atmosphere and we know exactly 
 how it traps heat. 

  
 And yet we don't know why during the Ordovician period 450 million years 
 ago there was a HUGE amount of CO2 in the atmosphere, about 4400 ppm verses 
 380 today, but the world was in a severe ice age, much colder than the more 
 recent ice ages we are more familiar with.
  

  The only uncertainties are in the positive feedback factors, like water 
 vapor, snow cover, 


 Don't misunderstand me, I'm perfectly willing to concede that human 
 activity has had a effect on global climate and will have a even bigger 
 effect in the future, but predicting exactly what things will be like in 
 the future or explaining why there were as they were in the past is not as 
 simple as you seem to think. Cloud cover and snow cover determines how much 
 energy is available to run the entire global climate machine, so 
 uncertainties about them means uncertainties about everything.

  methane production


 And methane is 30 times as effective at producing a greenhouse effect as 
 CO2 is. 
  

   The main factor for the temperature variations on the scale of 
 millions of years is the change in solar intensity and the Earth's orbit.


 Did that revelation come to you in a dream? You know why the Earth was 
 super cold 450 million years ago and super hot 360 million years ago and 
 everything in-between since?

  Do you have any evidence that raising the temperature 4.5degK will not 
 be disastrous for many millions of people?


 No person who doesn't make his living feeding environmental panic says the 
 global temperature is going to rise 4.5degK anytime soon, but never mind, 
 do you have any evidence that raising the temperature 4.5degK will not be 
 beneficial for many millions of people? Do you have any evidence that the 
 temperature things were at a century ago is the exact temperature things 
 should stay at forever?
  

   It was not a coincidence that the megafauna of North America and 
 South America and Australia that had existed for many millions of years 
 disappeared almost immediately after humans visited those continents for 
 the first time.  And today there are over 7 billion people on the Earth, 
 never before have there been that many large animals of the same large 
 species, nothing ever even came close. To keep that many animals alive 
 radical things are going to be needed to be done, to also keep them happy 
 even more radical things are going to be needed, like directly or 
 indirectly diverting nearly 40% of the planet's photosynthetic output to 
 human use. It would be astonishing if that sort of intervention did not 
 cause global changes of some sort to the climate, but short of asking 5 or 
 6 billion people to kill themselves there is simply no alternative. 


   Stupid hyperbole.  Nobody is asking anybody to kill themselves.


 They'll never have the guts to come right out and say it, or perhaps they 
 just don't have the brains to think things through, but In effect that is 
 exactly precisely what those moral paragons called environmentalists are 
 calling for! They say we should stop using fossil

Re: real A.I.



On Friday, December 12, 2014 6:20:05 AM UTC, John Clark wrote:

 On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 3:41 PM, meekerdb meek...@verizon.net 
 javascript: wrote:
  

  We and other species could no doubt adapt to the much warmer climate of 
 the Carboniferous era - but not in a few hundred years.


 When things got super hot life adapted, and we're far more intelligent 
 than anything that lived during the Carboniferous and the specialty of 
 intelligence is being good at adapting quickly to changing environmental 
 conditions.






Did that revelation come to you in a dream? You know why the Earth 
 was super cold 450 million years ago and super hot 360 million years ago 
 and everything in-between since?

   No it came to me reading about the Milankovich cycles.

 Please explain how ether the 21,000 or 26,000 or 41,000 year Milankovitch 
 cycle can explain why the Earth was  colder than it's ever been 450 
 million years ago and hotter than any time in the last two billion years 
 360 million years ago.


you asked this in previous climate row thread months back. I actually 
answered at the time and it was a pretty answer I answered all your 
questions I saw in that post. 

Do you know what you did? you totally ignored me for the rest of 
the climate row. And you carried on asking the same questions.. 

Si come on! You aren't interested in answers to any of your questions..

And nor should you be.. You love this sort of john against the world thing, 
Climate is the mother of all john against the world You lurve climate

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Re: real A.I.

2014-12-12 Thread John Clark

On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 10:44 AM, zibblequib...@gmail.com wrote:

 Please explain how ether the 21,000 or 26,000 or 41,000 year
 Milankovitch cycle can explain why the Earth was  colder than it's ever
 been 450 million years ago and hotter than any time in the last two billion
 years 360 million years ago.


  you asked this in previous climate row thread months back. I actually
 answered at the time and it was a pretty answer


Your answer would have been even prettier if it actually existed. I just
did a search on that old thread and neither you nor anybody else explained
how the 21,000 or 26,000 or 41,000 year Milankovitch cycle made the Earth
colder than it's ever been 450 million years ago and made the Earth hotter
than any time in the last two billion years 360 million years ago.

  John K Clark

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Re: real A.I.

2014-12-12 Thread spudboy100 via Everything List

what of snowball earth, where phyto plankton chilled the earth over, entirely? 
This was at least 600 million years ago, make the epoch of the reptiles, and 
later, dinosaurs, 300-400 million years in the future of snowball earth. 
Freaky, that.

-Original Message-
From: John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, Dec 12, 2014 12:37 pm
Subject: Re: real A.I.

On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 10:44 AM,  zibblequib...@gmail.com wrote:

 Please explain how ether the 21,000 or 26,000 or 41,000 year Milankovitch 
 cycle can explain why the Earth was   colder than it's ever been 
 450 million years ago and hotter than any time in the last two billion years 
 360 million years  ago.

 you asked this in previous climate row thread months back. I actually 
 answered at the time and it was a pretty answer

Your answer would have been even prettier if it actually existed. I just did a 
search on that old thread and neither you nor anybody else explained how the 
21,000 or 26,000 or 41,000 year Milankovitch cycle made the Earth  
colder than it's ever been 450 million years ago and made the Earthhotter than 
any time in the last two billion years 360 million years  ago.

  John K Clark

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Re: real A.I.

2014-12-12 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

The point is that none of these previous events involved such rapid change
as we're seeing now, but even if they did, so what? We know what's going
on, it isn't hard to monitor. We've known how the greenhouse effect works
for more than 2 centuries, we can measure the amount of carbon dioxide in
the atmosphere, we know it's gone up just over 40% since the industrial
revolution, we have a reasonable model of the likely results - not perfect
of course for such a complex system, but we're seeing the sorts of results
that have been predicted. Ice melting over the arctic, glaciers retreating,
sea levels rising, more extreme weather and now a disruption to the jet
stream. If this was, for example, the detection of a new astronomical
object or fundamental particle there wouldn't be any question about whether
it existed.

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Re: real A.I.

  From: Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com
 To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com 
 Sent: Friday, December 12, 2014 2:43 AM
 Subject: Re: real A.I.

The key point is not energy, but power. Political power.
Precisely... for once you say something that actually makes some sense... 
though not in the way you intended it to. The key nexus of power is the power 
of the fossil lobby protecting the future evaluation of its fossil energy 
reserves -- and hence the current bottom line balance sheets of the global 
fossil energy giants. As long as the world remains fixed on the fossil carbon 
treadmill these huge fortunes will be protected and their power -- both 
economic and political -- preserved. This provides a powerful and clear motive 
to lie, distort, obfuscate, censure, oppose, and obstruct.-Chris

2014-12-12 7:20 GMT+01:00 John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com:
On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 3:41 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:

 We and other species could no doubt adapt to the much warmer climate of the 
 Carboniferous era - but not in a few hundred years.

When things got super hot life adapted, and we're far more intelligent than 
anything that lived during the Carboniferous and the specialty of intelligence 
is being good at adapting quickly to changing environmental conditions.   

Did that revelation come to you in a dream? You know why the Earth was 
super cold 450 million years ago and super hot 360 million years ago and 
everything in-between since?

   No it came to me reading about the Milankovich cycles.

Please explain how ether the 21,000 or 26,000 or 41,000 year Milankovitch cycle 
can explain why the Earth was  colder than it's ever been 450 million years ago 
and hotter than any time in the last two billion years 360 million years ago.

 No person who doesn't make his living feeding environmental panic says the 
 global temperature is going to rise 4.5degK anytime soon,

   It's the 95% upper confidence bound of the IPCC projection for 2100.  

Bureaucratic agencies have a survival instinct, if people thought there was no 
need to be in a environmental panic there would be no reason for a agency like 
the IPCC to exist, and I don't give a damn if they're confident I only care if 
they're correct and predictions about what things will be like in 85 years 
almost never are. For heavens sake that's like demanding that the Wright 
Brothers find a solution to airport congestion; if in 85 years global warming 
turns out to be a real problem our toolkit for fixing things will be VASTLY 
larger and more powerful than it is now, and in the meantime there are plenty 
of more important problems that need fixing right now. 

  Bullshit.  You're just making up straw man environmentalist.  One of my 
  close friends is president of the Sierra Club and he's *for* nuclear power.  

We've been down this road before.  I don't know who your mystery friend is but 
I do know that the Sierra Club official website says:

The Sierra Club remains unequivocally opposed to nuclear energy. 

 And even those who are against it only hold that opinion because they think 
 solar and wind can replace oil. 

Then they are fools.

  John K Clark

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Alberto.

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Re: real A.I.

2014-12-12 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

  From: LizR lizj...@gmail.com
 To: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
 Sent: Friday, December 12, 2014 11:33 AM
 Subject: Re: real A.I.

The point is that none of these previous events involved such rapid change as 
we're seeing now, but even if they did, so what? We know what's going on, it 
isn't hard to monitor. We've known how the greenhouse effect works for more 
than 2 centuries, we can measure the amount of carbon dioxide in the 
atmosphere, we know it's gone up just over 40% since the industrial 
revolution, we have a reasonable model of the likely results - not perfect of 
course for such a complex system, but we're seeing the sorts of results that 
have been predicted. Ice melting over the arctic, glaciers retreating, sea 
levels rising, more extreme weather and now a disruption to the jet stream. 
If this was, for example, the detection of a new astronomical object or 
fundamental particle there wouldn't be any question about whether it existed.
This is what happens when trillions of dollars of wealth are pegged to the 
future value of the fossil carbon deposits, it creates a massive incentive to 
obstruct science and policy and to continue on with a business as usual 
approach. If the world seriously began transitioning away from the burning of 
fossil carbon in order to produce mechanical work -- extremely powerful mega 
fortunes with vested outsized influence over the political bodies and the 
courts (and every other facet of society as well) -- would see the future 
evaluations of their vast carbon reserve holdings evaporate. These future 
evaluations are counted as significant current assets on balance sheets.I 
suspect many global multinational energy corporations would go belly up if the 
current market evaluation of their future carbon reserve evaluations 
collapsed.-Chris

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Re: real A.I.

2014-12-12 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

Alberto... you sound like someone who is convinced that the black helicopters 
are coming for you. Since you seem to thrive on paranoia and fear, let me give 
you some more fodder to fuel the mental fires of the paranoia squirming around 
inside your mind.
Here is another scary fear your godless UN elites can enslave the masses with.
Gamma-Ray Burst Caused Mass Extinction?

|   |
|   |  |   |   |   |   |   |
| Gamma-Ray Burst Caused Mass Extinction?A stream of gamma rays aimed at Earth 
may have caused a mass die-off 440 million years ago, according to a new paper 
that says a similar celestial catastrophe could... |
|  |
| View on news.nationalgeograph... | Preview by Yahoo |
|  |
|   |

  
  From: Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com
 To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com 
 Sent: Friday, December 12, 2014 3:45 AM
 Subject: Re: real A.I.
   
There is hope anyway. For example slip the attention of the power hungry and 
their pawns, the obsessive people with other menaces. For example, the possible 
impact of an asteroid:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aGMDMNeWh0
To divert world efforts to create a body of the UN to conjure that menace. That 
way the heads of state and the megaburocracies can meet, they can increase 
taxes, they can marry their sons among them, the mases will be indoctrinated 
and will be happy with the new fears watching the TV. scientifics that are 
deniers of the asteroid consensus would be harrassed by prominent figures of 
the mass media and everyone will be happy.

But I´m affraid that this would not work, unless the asteroid require harder 
sacrifices to the political elite, more than taxes. for example blood 
sacrifices. For example abortions in masse. That is the attractive of ecologism 
and global warming: The commitment to the cause produced by blood sacrifices 
and the consequent psychological slavement of women. Once you alienate women 
from their men, you have enslaved a country.




2014-12-12 11:43 GMT+01:00 Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com:
The key point is not energy, but power. Political power.



2014-12-12 7:20 GMT+01:00 John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com:
On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 3:41 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:
 
 We and other species could no doubt adapt to the much warmer climate of the 
 Carboniferous era - but not in a few hundred years.


When things got super hot life adapted, and we're far more intelligent than 
anything that lived during the Carboniferous and the specialty of intelligence 
is being good at adapting quickly to changing environmental conditions.   



Did that revelation come to you in a dream? You know why the Earth was 
super cold 450 million years ago and super hot 360 million years ago and 
everything in-between since?
 
   No it came to me reading about the Milankovich cycles.


Please explain how ether the 21,000 or 26,000 or 41,000 year Milankovitch cycle 
can explain why the Earth was  colder than it's ever been 450 million years ago 
and hotter than any time in the last two billion years 360 million years ago.
 
 
 No person who doesn't make his living feeding environmental panic says the 
 global temperature is going to rise 4.5degK anytime soon,



   It's the 95% upper confidence bound of the IPCC projection for 2100.  

Bureaucratic agencies have a survival instinct, if people thought there was no 
need to be in a environmental panic there would be no reason for a agency like 
the IPCC to exist, and I don't give a damn if they're confident I only care if 
they're correct and predictions about what things will be like in 85 years 
almost never are. For heavens sake that's like demanding that the Wright 
Brothers find a solution to airport congestion; if in 85 years global warming 
turns out to be a real problem our toolkit for fixing things will be VASTLY 
larger and more powerful than it is now, and in the meantime there are plenty 
of more important problems that need fixing right now. 

 

  Bullshit.  You're just making up straw man environmentalist.  One of my 
  close friends is president of the Sierra Club and he's *for* nuclear power.  


We've been down this road before.  I don't know who your mystery friend is but 
I do know that the Sierra Club official website says:
 
The Sierra Club remains unequivocally opposed to nuclear energy. 


 And even those who are against it only hold that opinion because they think 
 solar and wind can replace oil. 


Then they are fools.

  John K Clark

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Alberto.-- 
You received this message because you

Re: real A.I.

2014-12-12 Thread meekerdb

On 12/12/2014 11:33 AM, LizR wrote:
The point is that none of these previous events involved such rapid change as we're
seeing now, but even if they did, so what? We know what's going on, it isn't hard to
monitor. We've known how the greenhouse effect works for more than 2 centuries, we can
measure the amount of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, we know it's gone up just over
40% since the industrial revolution, we have a reasonable model of the likely results -
not perfect of course for such a complex system, but we're seeing the sorts of results
that have been predicted. Ice melting over the arctic, glaciers retreating, sea levels
rising, more extreme weather and now a disruption to the jet stream. If this was, for
example, the detection of a new astronomical object or fundamental particle there
wouldn't be any question about whether it existed.

Exactly so. But if the new astronomical object were an asteriod that was predicted to hit
the Earth in 20yrs and preventing this would require some effort and expense on the part
of the rich and comfortable there would be deniers pointing out that many objects have
struck the Earth in the past and life survived and besides it will probably just strike
the ocean and nobody but environmental elitists care about the ocean and it's really just
a hoax by astronomers to make them rich and we all know that those orbital mechanics
programs can be tweaked to give any answer you want and besides the asteroid may contain
precious metals we can mine and if it hit the middle east wouldn't we all be better off
anyway and let's just wait because we're sure to invent some magic bullet to solve this
problem in the next 19yrs.

Brent

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Re: real A.I.

There are many kind of dumb people, but there are one kind of the dumbest
ones, for which the  Western Wold  produce a massive surplus nowadays: the
ones that think that, because they are born and they are so pretty and so
nice and so intelligent, and because they are iphones, plasma TVs and
documentaries about the universe, there would be no more dictatorships, no
more deaths, no more hunger, no more turmoil in his country never forever
again.

2014-12-12 21:02 GMT+01:00 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List 
everything-list@googlegroups.com:

 Alberto... you sound like someone who is convinced that the black
 helicopters are coming for you. Since you seem to thrive on paranoia and
 fear, let me give you some more fodder to fuel the mental fires of the
 paranoia squirming around inside your mind.

 Here is another scary fear your godless UN elites can enslave the masses
 with.

 Gamma-Ray Burst Caused Mass Extinction?
 http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/04/090403-gamma-ray-extinction.html


 [image: image]
 http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/04/090403-gamma-ray-extinction.html





 Gamma-Ray Burst Caused Mass Extinction?
 http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/04/090403-gamma-ray-extinction.html
 A stream of gamma rays aimed at Earth may have caused a mass die-off 440
 million years ago, according to a new paper that says a similar celestial
 catastrophe could...
 View on news.nationalgeograph...
 http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/04/090403-gamma-ray-extinction.html
 Preview by Yahoo



   --
  *From:* Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com
 *To:* everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
 *Sent:* Friday, December 12, 2014 3:45 AM
 *Subject:* Re: real A.I.

 There is hope anyway. For example slip the attention of the power hungry
 and their pawns, the obsessive people with other menaces. For example, the
 possible impact of an asteroid:

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aGMDMNeWh0

 To divert world efforts to create a body of the UN to conjure that menace.
 That way the heads of state and the megaburocracies can meet, they can
 increase taxes, they can marry their sons among them, the mases will be
 indoctrinated and will be happy with the new fears watching the TV.
 scientifics that are deniers of the asteroid consensus would be harrassed
 by prominent figures of the mass media and everyone will be happy.

 But I´m affraid that this would not work, unless the asteroid require
 harder sacrifices to the political elite, more than taxes. for example
 blood sacrifices. For example abortions in masse. That is the attractive of
 ecologism and global warming: The commitment to the cause produced by blood
 sacrifices and the consequent psychological slavement of women. Once you
 alienate women from their men, you have enslaved a country.




 2014-12-12 11:43 GMT+01:00 Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com:

 The key point is not energy, but power. Political power.



 2014-12-12 7:20 GMT+01:00 John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com:

 On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 3:41 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:


  We and other species could no doubt adapt to the much warmer climate of
 the Carboniferous era - but not in a few hundred years.


 When things got super hot life adapted, and we're far more intelligent
 than anything that lived during the Carboniferous and the specialty of
 intelligence is being good at adapting quickly to changing environmental
 conditions.


Did that revelation come to you in a dream? You know why the Earth
 was super cold 450 million years ago and super hot 360 million years ago
 and everything in-between since?

   No it came to me reading about the Milankovich cycles.

 Please explain how ether the 21,000 or 26,000 or 41,000 year Milankovitch
 cycle can explain why the Earth was  colder than it's ever been 450
 million years ago and hotter than any time in the last two billion years
 360 million years ago.


  No person who doesn't make his living feeding environmental panic says
 the global temperature is going to rise 4.5degK anytime soon,

   It's the 95% upper confidence bound of the IPCC projection for 2100.


 Bureaucratic agencies have a survival instinct, if people thought there
 was no need to be in a environmental panic there would be no reason for a
 agency like the IPCC to exist, and I don't give a damn if they're confident
 I only care if they're correct and predictions about what things will be
 like in 85 years almost never are. For heavens sake that's like demanding
 that the Wright Brothers find a solution to airport congestion; if in 85
 years global warming turns out to be a real problem our toolkit for fixing
 things will be VASTLY larger and more powerful than it is now, and in the
 meantime there are plenty of more important problems that need fixing right
 now.



  Bullshit.  You're just making up straw man environmentalist.  One of
 my close friends is president of the Sierra Club and he's

Re: real A.I.

 they are - they have

2014-12-12 22:24 GMT+01:00 Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com:

 There are many kind of dumb people, but there are one kind of the dumbest
 ones, for which the  Western Wold  produce a massive surplus nowadays: the
 ones that think that, because they are born and they are so pretty and so
 nice and so intelligent, and because they are iphones, plasma TVs and
 documentaries about the universe, there would be no more dictatorships, no
 more deaths, no more hunger, no more turmoil in his country never forever
 again.

 2014-12-12 21:02 GMT+01:00 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List 
 everything-list@googlegroups.com:

 Alberto... you sound like someone who is convinced that the black
 helicopters are coming for you. Since you seem to thrive on paranoia and
 fear, let me give you some more fodder to fuel the mental fires of the
 paranoia squirming around inside your mind.

 Here is another scary fear your godless UN elites can enslave the masses
 with.

 Gamma-Ray Burst Caused Mass Extinction?
 http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/04/090403-gamma-ray-extinction.html


 [image: image]
 http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/04/090403-gamma-ray-extinction.html





 Gamma-Ray Burst Caused Mass Extinction?
 http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/04/090403-gamma-ray-extinction.html
 A stream of gamma rays aimed at Earth may have caused a mass die-off 440
 million years ago, according to a new paper that says a similar celestial
 catastrophe could...
 View on news.nationalgeograph...
 http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/04/090403-gamma-ray-extinction.html
 Preview by Yahoo



   --
  *From:* Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com
 *To:* everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
 *Sent:* Friday, December 12, 2014 3:45 AM
 *Subject:* Re: real A.I.

 There is hope anyway. For example slip the attention of the power hungry
 and their pawns, the obsessive people with other menaces. For example, the
 possible impact of an asteroid:

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aGMDMNeWh0

 To divert world efforts to create a body of the UN to conjure that
 menace. That way the heads of state and the megaburocracies can meet, they
 can increase taxes, they can marry their sons among them, the mases will be
 indoctrinated and will be happy with the new fears watching the TV.
 scientifics that are deniers of the asteroid consensus would be harrassed
 by prominent figures of the mass media and everyone will be happy.

 But I´m affraid that this would not work, unless the asteroid require
 harder sacrifices to the political elite, more than taxes. for example
 blood sacrifices. For example abortions in masse. That is the attractive of
 ecologism and global warming: The commitment to the cause produced by blood
 sacrifices and the consequent psychological slavement of women. Once you
 alienate women from their men, you have enslaved a country.




 2014-12-12 11:43 GMT+01:00 Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com:

 The key point is not energy, but power. Political power.



 2014-12-12 7:20 GMT+01:00 John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com:

 On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 3:41 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:


  We and other species could no doubt adapt to the much warmer climate of
 the Carboniferous era - but not in a few hundred years.


 When things got super hot life adapted, and we're far more intelligent
 than anything that lived during the Carboniferous and the specialty of
 intelligence is being good at adapting quickly to changing environmental
 conditions.


Did that revelation come to you in a dream? You know why the Earth
 was super cold 450 million years ago and super hot 360 million years ago
 and everything in-between since?

   No it came to me reading about the Milankovich cycles.

 Please explain how ether the 21,000 or 26,000 or 41,000 year Milankovitch
 cycle can explain why the Earth was  colder than it's ever been 450
 million years ago and hotter than any time in the last two billion years
 360 million years ago.


  No person who doesn't make his living feeding environmental panic says
 the global temperature is going to rise 4.5degK anytime soon,

   It's the 95% upper confidence bound of the IPCC projection for 2100.


 Bureaucratic agencies have a survival instinct, if people thought there
 was no need to be in a environmental panic there would be no reason for
 a agency like the IPCC to exist, and I don't give a damn if they're
 confident I only care if they're correct and predictions about what things
 will be like in 85 years almost never are. For heavens sake that's like
 demanding that the Wright Brothers find a solution to airport congestion;
 if in 85 years global warming turns out to be a real problem our toolkit
 for fixing things will be VASTLY larger and more powerful than it is now,
 and in the meantime there are plenty of more important problems that need
 fixing right now.



  Bullshit.  You're just

Re: real A.I.

On 13 December 2014 at 10:23, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:

 On 12/12/2014 11:33 AM, LizR wrote:

 The point is that none of these previous events involved such rapid
 change as we're seeing now, but even if they did, so what? We know what's
 going on, it isn't hard to monitor. We've known how the greenhouse effect
 works for more than 2 centuries, we can measure the amount of carbon
 dioxide in the atmosphere, we know it's gone up just over 40% since the
 industrial revolution, we have a reasonable model of the likely results -
 not perfect of course for such a complex system, but we're seeing the sorts
 of results that have been predicted. Ice melting over the arctic, glaciers
 retreating, sea levels rising, more extreme weather and now a disruption to
 the jet stream. If this was, for example, the detection of a new
 astronomical object or fundamental particle there wouldn't be any question
 about whether it existed.


 Exactly so.  But if the new astronomical object were an asteriod that was
 predicted to hit the Earth in 20yrs and preventing this would require some
 effort and expense on the part of the rich and comfortable there would be
 deniers pointing out that many objects have struck the Earth in the past
 and life survived and besides it will probably just strike the ocean and
 nobody but environmental elitists care about the ocean and it's really just
 a hoax by astronomers to make them rich and we all know that those orbital
 mechanics programs can be tweaked to give any answer you want and besides
 the asteroid may contain precious metals we can mine and if it hit the
 middle east wouldn't we all be better off anyway and let's just wait
 because we're sure to invent some magic bullet to solve this problem in the
 next 19yrs.

 True. That is simultaneously amusing and terrifying.

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Re: real A.I.

On 13 December 2014 at 10:24, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com wrote:

 There are many kind of dumb people, but there are one kind of the dumbest
 ones, for which the  Western Wold  produce a massive surplus nowadays: the
 ones that think that, because they are born and they are so pretty and so
 nice and so intelligent, and because they are iphones, plasma TVs and
 documentaries about the universe, there would be no more dictatorships, no
 more deaths, no more hunger, no more turmoil in his country never forever
 again.

 The Romans called it bread and circuses I believe. Plus ca change.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
Everything List group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: real A.I.

Has anyone noticed that it is almost exactly one galactic year since the
Permian-Triassic extinction? (96% of marine and 70% of land life died - the
only extinction event known to have wiped out insect species, apparently).
So we're back in the same part of the galaxy as we were when it
happenedlast time!

Of course the galaxy is a dynamic thing and the same part loosely defined
at best, but ... something else to worry about?

:-)


On 13 December 2014 at 10:26, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com wrote:

 they are - they have

 2014-12-12 22:24 GMT+01:00 Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com:

 There are many kind of dumb people, but there are one kind of the dumbest
 ones, for which the  Western Wold  produce a massive surplus nowadays: the
 ones that think that, because they are born and they are so pretty and so
 nice and so intelligent, and because they are iphones, plasma TVs and
 documentaries about the universe, there would be no more dictatorships, no
 more deaths, no more hunger, no more turmoil in his country never forever
 again.

 2014-12-12 21:02 GMT+01:00 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List 
 everything-list@googlegroups.com:

 Alberto... you sound like someone who is convinced that the black
 helicopters are coming for you. Since you seem to thrive on paranoia and
 fear, let me give you some more fodder to fuel the mental fires of the
 paranoia squirming around inside your mind.

 Here is another scary fear your godless UN elites can enslave the masses
 with.

 Gamma-Ray Burst Caused Mass Extinction?
 http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/04/090403-gamma-ray-extinction.html


 [image: image]
 http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/04/090403-gamma-ray-extinction.html





 Gamma-Ray Burst Caused Mass Extinction?
 http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/04/090403-gamma-ray-extinction.html
 A stream of gamma rays aimed at Earth may have caused a mass die-off 440
 million years ago, according to a new paper that says a similar celestial
 catastrophe could...
 View on news.nationalgeograph...
 http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/04/090403-gamma-ray-extinction.html
 Preview by Yahoo



   --
  *From:* Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com
 *To:* everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
 *Sent:* Friday, December 12, 2014 3:45 AM
 *Subject:* Re: real A.I.

 There is hope anyway. For example slip the attention of the power hungry
 and their pawns, the obsessive people with other menaces. For example, the
 possible impact of an asteroid:

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aGMDMNeWh0

 To divert world efforts to create a body of the UN to conjure that
 menace. That way the heads of state and the megaburocracies can meet, they
 can increase taxes, they can marry their sons among them, the mases will be
 indoctrinated and will be happy with the new fears watching the TV.
 scientifics that are deniers of the asteroid consensus would be harrassed
 by prominent figures of the mass media and everyone will be happy.

 But I´m affraid that this would not work, unless the asteroid require
 harder sacrifices to the political elite, more than taxes. for example
 blood sacrifices. For example abortions in masse. That is the attractive of
 ecologism and global warming: The commitment to the cause produced by blood
 sacrifices and the consequent psychological slavement of women. Once you
 alienate women from their men, you have enslaved a country.




 2014-12-12 11:43 GMT+01:00 Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com:

 The key point is not energy, but power. Political power.



 2014-12-12 7:20 GMT+01:00 John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com:

 On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 3:41 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:


  We and other species could no doubt adapt to the much warmer climate
 of the Carboniferous era - but not in a few hundred years.


 When things got super hot life adapted, and we're far more intelligent
 than anything that lived during the Carboniferous and the specialty of
 intelligence is being good at adapting quickly to changing environmental
 conditions.


Did that revelation come to you in a dream? You know why the Earth
 was super cold 450 million years ago and super hot 360 million years ago
 and everything in-between since?

   No it came to me reading about the Milankovich cycles.

 Please explain how ether the 21,000 or 26,000 or 41,000 year
 Milankovitch cycle can explain why the Earth was  colder than it's ever
 been 450 million years ago and hotter than any time in the last two billion
 years 360 million years ago.


  No person who doesn't make his living feeding environmental panic
 says the global temperature is going to rise 4.5degK anytime soon,

   It's the 95% upper confidence bound of the IPCC projection for 2100.


 Bureaucratic agencies have a survival instinct, if people thought there
 was no need to be in a environmental panic there would be no reason for
 a agency like the IPCC to exist, and I don't

Re: real A.I.

The permo-triassic extinction was caused by vulcanism (a superplume) in
Siberia. That is the most accepted hypothesis.

2014-12-12 22:36 GMT+01:00 LizR lizj...@gmail.com:

 Has anyone noticed that it is almost exactly one galactic year since the
 Permian-Triassic extinction? (96% of marine and 70% of land life died - the
 only extinction event known to have wiped out insect species, apparently).
 So we're back in the same part of the galaxy as we were when it
 happenedlast time!

 Of course the galaxy is a dynamic thing and the same part loosely
 defined at best, but ... something else to worry about?

 :-)


 On 13 December 2014 at 10:26, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 they are - they have

 2014-12-12 22:24 GMT+01:00 Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com:

 There are many kind of dumb people, but there are one kind of the
 dumbest ones, for which the  Western Wold  produce a massive surplus
 nowadays: the ones that think that, because they are born and they are so
 pretty and so nice and so intelligent, and because they are iphones, plasma
 TVs and documentaries about the universe, there would be no more
 dictatorships, no more deaths, no more hunger, no more turmoil in his
 country never forever again.

 2014-12-12 21:02 GMT+01:00 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List 
 everything-list@googlegroups.com:

 Alberto... you sound like someone who is convinced that the black
 helicopters are coming for you. Since you seem to thrive on paranoia and
 fear, let me give you some more fodder to fuel the mental fires of the
 paranoia squirming around inside your mind.

 Here is another scary fear your godless UN elites can enslave the
 masses with.

 Gamma-Ray Burst Caused Mass Extinction?
 http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/04/090403-gamma-ray-extinction.html


 [image: image]
 http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/04/090403-gamma-ray-extinction.html





 Gamma-Ray Burst Caused Mass Extinction?
 http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/04/090403-gamma-ray-extinction.html
 A stream of gamma rays aimed at Earth may have caused a mass die-off
 440 million years ago, according to a new paper that says a similar
 celestial catastrophe could...
 View on news.nationalgeograph...
 http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/04/090403-gamma-ray-extinction.html
 Preview by Yahoo



   --
  *From:* Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com
 *To:* everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
 *Sent:* Friday, December 12, 2014 3:45 AM
 *Subject:* Re: real A.I.

 There is hope anyway. For example slip the attention of the power
 hungry and their pawns, the obsessive people with other menaces. For
 example, the possible impact of an asteroid:

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aGMDMNeWh0

 To divert world efforts to create a body of the UN to conjure that
 menace. That way the heads of state and the megaburocracies can meet, they
 can increase taxes, they can marry their sons among them, the mases will be
 indoctrinated and will be happy with the new fears watching the TV.
 scientifics that are deniers of the asteroid consensus would be harrassed
 by prominent figures of the mass media and everyone will be happy.

 But I´m affraid that this would not work, unless the asteroid require
 harder sacrifices to the political elite, more than taxes. for example
 blood sacrifices. For example abortions in masse. That is the attractive of
 ecologism and global warming: The commitment to the cause produced by blood
 sacrifices and the consequent psychological slavement of women. Once you
 alienate women from their men, you have enslaved a country.




 2014-12-12 11:43 GMT+01:00 Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com:

 The key point is not energy, but power. Political power.



 2014-12-12 7:20 GMT+01:00 John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com:

 On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 3:41 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:


  We and other species could no doubt adapt to the much warmer climate
 of the Carboniferous era - but not in a few hundred years.


 When things got super hot life adapted, and we're far more intelligent
 than anything that lived during the Carboniferous and the specialty of
 intelligence is being good at adapting quickly to changing environmental
 conditions.


Did that revelation come to you in a dream? You know why the
 Earth was super cold 450 million years ago and super hot 360 million years
 ago and everything in-between since?

   No it came to me reading about the Milankovich cycles.

 Please explain how ether the 21,000 or 26,000 or 41,000 year
 Milankovitch cycle can explain why the Earth was  colder than it's
 ever been 450 million years ago and hotter than any time in the last two
 billion years 360 million years ago.


  No person who doesn't make his living feeding environmental panic
 says the global temperature is going to rise 4.5degK anytime soon,

   It's the 95% upper confidence bound of the IPCC projection for
 2100

Re: real A.I.

2014-12-12 Thread meekerdb


On 12/12/2014 12:02 PM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List wrote:
Alberto... you sound like someone who is convinced that the black helicopters are coming 
for you. Since you seem to thrive on paranoia and fear, let me give you some more fodder 
to fuel the mental fires of the paranoia squirming around inside your mind.


Here is another scary fear your godless UN elites can enslave the masses with.

Gamma-Ray Burst Caused Mass Extinction? 
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/04/090403-gamma-ray-extinction.html


image 
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/04/090403-gamma-ray-extinction.html





Gamma-Ray Burst Caused Mass Extinction? 
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/04/090403-gamma-ray-extinction.html
A stream of gamma rays aimed at Earth may have caused a mass die-off 440 million years 
ago, according to a new paper that says a similar celestial catastrophe could...


View on news.nationalgeograph... 
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/04/090403-gamma-ray-extinction.html


Preview by Yahoo




Mass extinction...Alberto would be all for that.  He'd just be against doing anything to 
stop it.  Anybody who'd propose that is a pinko atheist commy set on world domination.


Brent

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Re: real A.I.



On Friday, December 12, 2014 5:37:01 PM UTC, John Clark wrote:

 On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 10:44 AM, zibble...@gmail.com javascript: 
 wrote:

  Please explain how ether the 21,000 or 26,000 or 41,000 year 
 Milankovitch cycle can explain why the Earth was  colder than it's ever 
 been 450 million years ago and hotter than any time in the last two billion 
 years 360 million years ago.


  you asked this in previous climate row thread months back. I actually 
 answered at the time and it was a pretty answer


 Your answer would have been even prettier if it actually existed. I just 
 did a search on that old thread and neither you nor anybody else explained 
 how the 21,000 or 26,000 or 41,000 year Milankovitch cycle made the Earth 
 colder than it's ever been 450 million years ago and made the Earth hotter 
 than any time in the last two billion years 360 million years ago.

   John K Clark


I had a different nick I should think. I was off the meds, went all 80's 
retro. I think I was Robert Palmer or one of the models
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcATvu5f9vE

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Re: real A.I.

This paraphrasis of the famous quote from Santayana is the best quote that
I have read in years:

http://tldr.es/32l

2014-12-12 22:33 GMT+01:00 LizR lizj...@gmail.com:

 On 13 December 2014 at 10:24, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 There are many kind of dumb people, but there are one kind of the dumbest
 ones, for which the  Western Wold  produce a massive surplus nowadays: the
 ones that think that, because they are born and they are so pretty and so
 nice and so intelligent, and because they are iphones, plasma TVs and
 documentaries about the universe, there would be no more dictatorships, no
 more deaths, no more hunger, no more turmoil in his country never forever
 again.

 The Romans called it bread and circuses I believe. Plus ca change.

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Alberto.

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Re: real A.I.

Meekerdb

Of course, because, as you said some threads ago, I´m payed by Exxon to
stop you saving the planet. Don´t you remember?

2014-12-12 22:47 GMT+01:00 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net:

  On 12/12/2014 12:02 PM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List wrote:

  Alberto... you sound like someone who is convinced that the black
 helicopters are coming for you. Since you seem to thrive on paranoia and
 fear, let me give you some more fodder to fuel the mental fires of the
 paranoia squirming around inside your mind.

  Here is another scary fear your godless UN elites can enslave the masses
 with.

  Gamma-Ray Burst Caused Mass Extinction?
 http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/04/090403-gamma-ray-extinction.html


  [image: image]
 http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/04/090403-gamma-ray-extinction.html





Gamma-Ray Burst Caused Mass Extinction?
 http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/04/090403-gamma-ray-extinction.html
 A stream of gamma rays aimed at Earth may have caused a mass die-off 440
 million years ago, according to a new paper that says a similar celestial
 catastrophe could...

   View on news.nationalgeograph...
 http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/04/090403-gamma-ray-extinction.html
  Preview by Yahoo





 Mass extinction...Alberto would be all for that.  He'd just be against
 doing anything to stop it.  Anybody who'd propose that is a pinko atheist
 commy set on world domination.

 Brent

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Alberto.

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Re: real A.I.

2014-12-12 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List



On Friday, December 12, 2014 5:37:01 PM UTC, John Clark wrote:

 On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 10:44 AM, zibble...@gmail.com javascript: 
 wrote:

  Please explain how ether the 21,000 or 26,000 or 41,000 year 
 Milankovitch cycle can explain why the Earth was  colder than it's ever 
 been 450 million years ago and hotter than any time in the last two billion 
 years 360 million years ago.


  you asked this in previous climate row thread months back. I actually 
 answered at the time and it was a pretty answer


 Your answer would have been even prettier if it actually existed. I just 
 did a search on that old thread and neither you nor anybody else explained 
 how the 21,000 or 26,000 or 41,000 year Milankovitch cycle made the Earth 
 colder than it's ever been 450 million years ago and made the Earth hotter 
 than any time in the last two billion years 360 million years ago.

   John K Clark


It definitely happened dear fruitI was ghibbsa I should think. If you 
tell me the name of the thread I'll go look.Or if you are happy do that 
bit,  I'll do the washing up







  



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Re: real A.I.

2014-12-12 Thread meekerdb

On 12/12/2014 2:13 PM, zibblequib...@gmail.com wrote:

On Friday, December 12, 2014 5:37:01 PM UTC, John Clark wrote:

On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 10:44 AM, zibble...@gmail.com javascript: wrote:

Please explain how ether the 21,000 or 26,000 or 41,000 year
Milankovitch cycle can explain why the
Earth was colder than it's ever been 450 million years ago and
hotter than
any time in the last two billion years 360 million years ago.

you asked this in previous climate row thread months back. I actually
answered
at the time and it was a pretty answer

Your answer would have been even prettier if it actually existed. I just
did a
search on that old thread and neither you nor anybody else explained how
the21,000
or 26,000 or 41,000 year Milankovitch cycle made the Earthcolder than it's
ever been
450 million years ago and made the Earth hotter than any time in the last
two
billion years 360 million years ago.

Nobody bothered to explain that it might have been volcanoes or asteroid strikes as well
as oribtal variations and they did that because it's completely irrelevant to current
global warming. We know that CO2 has increased from 300ppm to 450ppm and that we put
about twice that amount into the atmosphere. And we know how CO2 acts as a greenhouse
gas. So how the Earth warmed or cooled in the distant past is just your attempt at diversion.

Brent

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Re: real A.I.

ALberto -- Hate to burst your bubble, but Exxon can find better spinmeisters 
than you will ever be. Why would they throw good money away hiring you to do 
their spin?-Chris
  From: Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com
 To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com 
 Sent: Friday, December 12, 2014 2:08 PM
 Subject: Re: real A.I.

Meekerdb

Of course, because, as you said some threads ago, I´m payed by Exxon to stop 
you saving the planet. Don´t you remember?

2014-12-12 22:47 GMT+01:00 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net:
  On 12/12/2014 12:02 PM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List wrote:

  Alberto... you sound like someone who is convinced that the black helicopters 
are coming for you. Since you seem to thrive on paranoia and fear, let me give 
you some more fodder to fuel the mental fires of the paranoia squirming around 
inside your mind. 
  Here is another scary fear your godless UN elites can enslave the masses 
with. 
  Gamma-Ray Burst Caused Mass Extinction?

|     |
|     ||     |     |     |     |     |
|   Gamma-Ray Burst Caused Mass Extinction? A stream of gamma rays aimed at 
Earth may have caused a mass die-off 440 million years ago, according to a new 
paper that says a similar celestial catastrophe could...|
| 
  |
|  View on news.nationalgeograph...  |  Preview by Yahoo  |
| 
  |
|     |

 Mass extinction...Alberto would be all for that.  He'd just be against doing 
anything to stop it.  Anybody who'd propose that is a pinko atheist commy set 
on world domination.

 Brent
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Re: real A.I.

Chris: don't think so fast.   They pay me in gasoline for my car. And use
to drive smoking a cigarrette, just for the plasure of endangering the holy
planet.

2014-12-12 23:45 GMT+01:00 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List 
everything-list@googlegroups.com:

 ALberto -- Hate to burst your bubble, but Exxon can find better
 spinmeisters than you will ever be. Why would they throw good money away
 hiring you to do their spin?
 -Chris

   --
  *From:* Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com
 *To:* everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
 *Sent:* Friday, December 12, 2014 2:08 PM
 *Subject:* Re: real A.I.

 Meekerdb

 Of course, because, as you said some threads ago, I´m payed by Exxon to
 stop you saving the planet. Don´t you remember?

 2014-12-12 22:47 GMT+01:00 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net:

  On 12/12/2014 12:02 PM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List wrote:

  Alberto... you sound like someone who is convinced that the black
 helicopters are coming for you. Since you seem to thrive on paranoia and
 fear, let me give you some more fodder to fuel the mental fires of the
 paranoia squirming around inside your mind.

  Here is another scary fear your godless UN elites can enslave the masses
 with.

  Gamma-Ray Burst Caused Mass Extinction?
 http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/04/090403-gamma-ray-extinction.html


  [image: image]
 http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/04/090403-gamma-ray-extinction.html





  Gamma-Ray Burst Caused Mass Extinction?
 http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/04/090403-gamma-ray-extinction.html
 A stream of gamma rays aimed at Earth may have caused a mass die-off 440
 million years ago, according to a new paper that says a similar celestial
 catastrophe could...

  View on news.nationalgeograph...
 http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/04/090403-gamma-ray-extinction.html
  Preview by Yahoo





 Mass extinction...Alberto would be all for that.  He'd just be against
 doing anything to stop it.  Anybody who'd propose that is a pinko atheist
 commy set on world domination.

 Brent
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 Alberto.
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-- 
Alberto.

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Re: real A.I.