Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
Daniel wrote: Jens Hatlak wrote: Daniel wrote: Several times, over the years, I have suggested that there *SHOULD* be a clickable link as part of the Mail Newsgroup splash screen, but, sadly, I'm still waiting. The alteration would have to happen in chrome://messenger/content/start.xhtml but I don't know how to do it. If you ask how to do it for yourself only: 1. Go to your SeaMonkey install directory 2. Open chrome/messenger.jar with a ZIP program (e.g. 7-Zip) 3. Edit content/messenger/start.xhtml ( 4. Open chrome/en-US.jar with a ZIP program 5. Edit en-US/messenger/start.dtd ) Your changes will be overwritten whenever you update SM. If you ask how to do it for everyone: 1. File a bughttps://bugzilla.mozilla.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=SeaMonkey 2. Describe exactly what you propose 3. Find someone to implement it 4. Get the module owner (Karsten) to accept it HTH Jens Yes, Jens, you are right, I should put it in through Bugzilla.and if I can remember my password, I will!! Daniel RFE finally entered, see, and vote for, bug 547633 Daniel ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
I hate to betray my own words but I cannot resist the temptation… '-_- On 14/02/10 18:03, Benoit Renard wrote: That's not the message I was referring to, though the message I am referring to is quoted in it. I'm referring to this passage: I have tabs turned off for now. But everything opens in new windows (which is better than tabs.). Oh, and where in the world better is a synonym of faster? Your own words have been: Then again, Philip Jones has claimed that new windows are faster than new tabs, which is objectively wrong. http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.support.seamonkey/msg/469bab6f5d777642 AFAIK, better is often a subjective valuation that depends on specific user needs and preferences. Philip Jones stressed us many times explaining why he doesn't like tabs so it's obvious that he thinks that new windows are better than new tabs! But this doesn't mean he thinks (or wrote) that new windows are also *faster* than new tabs. -- Andrea XFox Govoni AIM/iChat/ICQ: x...@mac.com Yahoo! ID: xfox82 Skype Name: draykan PGP KeyID: 0x212E69C1 Fingerprint: FBE1 CA7D 34BE 4A53 9639 5C36 B7A0 605F 212E 69C1 ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
Daniel wrote: Benoit Renard wrote: Daniel wrote: Ray_Net wrote: Daniel wrote: Jens Hatlak wrote: Daniel wrote: Several times, over the years, I have suggested that there *SHOULD* be a clickable link as part of the Mail Newsgroup splash screen, but, sadly, I'm still waiting. The alteration would have to happen in chrome://messenger/content/start.xhtml but I don't know how to do it. If you ask how to do it for yourself only: 1. Go to your SeaMonkey install directory 2. Open chrome/messenger.jar with a ZIP program (e.g. 7-Zip) 3. Edit content/messenger/start.xhtml ( 4. Open chrome/en-US.jar with a ZIP program 5. Edit en-US/messenger/start.dtd ) Your changes will be overwritten whenever you update SM. If you ask how to do it for everyone: 1. File a bughttps://bugzilla.mozilla.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=SeaMonkey 2. Describe exactly what you propose 3. Find someone to implement it 4. Get the module owner (Karsten) to accept it HTH Jens Yes, Jens, you are right, I should put it in through Bugzilla.and if I can remember my password, I will!! On the given page ... https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=SeaMonkey ... you have the possibility to retrieve/create a new password based on your email adress: it's written: If you have an account, but have forgotten your password, enter your e-mail address below and submit a request to change your password. Ray, I've got myself in a messfirst time I wasn't sure of my password, tried several, until bugzilla barred me, then I located my real password and tried to retrieve/create my password, but, because I was barred, I cannot even change my password, so now I guess I'll have to make a new profile. Shouldn't this be temporary? Try again. If that doesn't work, ask for support from an administrator. Yep, it's been a couple of days, so I'll have to give this a try. Daniel Now my new password is expiring before it's used.see new thread Changing Bugzilla password Daniel ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
Andrea Govoni wrote: On 15/02/10 12:42, Daniel wrote: Andrea, are we talking about the same thing?? After reading this message, I don't think so. Two situations. Whilst you are reading here, you also have your browser open set to whatever your home page may be. You then click on the above link to make sure it is the right message. In one situation, the groups.google page opens in a Tab of your browser, sharing the browser with your homepage. In the other situation, a second browser opens to display the groups.google all on its own. One browser window with two tabs open or two browser windows each with one tab open. Finally I understand why you don't understand. You're missing a third situation, the one that I, Philip Jones and others called same window. In this situation, the Google Groups page opens in the *same window* of the homepage, replacing its content (the homepage) with the new content (the Google Groups page). The result is always one browser window with only one open tab. To enable this behavior go to Preferences… -- Browser -- Tabbed Browsing -- Links from other applications -- The current tab/window. OK, so we've moved on from the original New Windows v Tabs to just using the same window. OK, Andrea, I can live with that!! Daniel ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
Benoit Renard wrote: Daniel wrote: Ray_Net wrote: Daniel wrote: Jens Hatlak wrote: Daniel wrote: Several times, over the years, I have suggested that there *SHOULD* be a clickable link as part of the Mail Newsgroup splash screen, but, sadly, I'm still waiting. The alteration would have to happen in chrome://messenger/content/start.xhtml but I don't know how to do it. If you ask how to do it for yourself only: 1. Go to your SeaMonkey install directory 2. Open chrome/messenger.jar with a ZIP program (e.g. 7-Zip) 3. Edit content/messenger/start.xhtml ( 4. Open chrome/en-US.jar with a ZIP program 5. Edit en-US/messenger/start.dtd ) Your changes will be overwritten whenever you update SM. If you ask how to do it for everyone: 1. File a bughttps://bugzilla.mozilla.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=SeaMonkey 2. Describe exactly what you propose 3. Find someone to implement it 4. Get the module owner (Karsten) to accept it HTH Jens Yes, Jens, you are right, I should put it in through Bugzilla.and if I can remember my password, I will!! On the given page ... https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=SeaMonkey ... you have the possibility to retrieve/create a new password based on your email adress: it's written: If you have an account, but have forgotten your password, enter your e-mail address below and submit a request to change your password. Ray, I've got myself in a messfirst time I wasn't sure of my password, tried several, until bugzilla barred me, then I located my real password and tried to retrieve/create my password, but, because I was barred, I cannot even change my password, so now I guess I'll have to make a new profile. Shouldn't this be temporary? Try again. If that doesn't work, ask for support from an administrator. Yep, it's been a couple of days, so I'll have to give this a try. Daniel ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
Andrea Govoni wrote: Ray_Net, I promise this is my last message in this thread. Il 12/02/10 14:58, Daniel ha scritto: Andrea, Phillip's message, in which he claims New Windows are ten times faster than New Tabs is 16th in this chain. So, you are referring to this [1] message. Well, by reading that message (ALL the message, even the quoted text) it's clear to any reasonable person that Philip Jones statement about SeaMonkey being ten times faster than before is about opening links in the *same window* as opposed to opening them in *new windows* (as it did before). If you still cannot understand it, even after re-reading that message, I give up trying to explain the obvious. [1] http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.support.seamonkey/msg/68fc9ab6b77fcf25 Andrea, are we talking about the same thing?? Two situations. Whilst you are reading here, you also have your browser open set to whatever your home page may be. You then click on the above link to make sure it is the right message. In one situation, the groups.google page opens in a Tab of your browser, sharing the browser with your homepage. In the other situation, a second browser opens to display the groups.google all on its own. One browser window with two tabs open or two browser windows each with one tab open. Daniel ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
Ray_Net wrote: Daniel wrote: Jens Hatlak wrote: Daniel wrote: Several times, over the years, I have suggested that there *SHOULD* be a clickable link as part of the Mail Newsgroup splash screen, but, sadly, I'm still waiting. The alteration would have to happen in chrome://messenger/content/start.xhtml but I don't know how to do it. If you ask how to do it for yourself only: 1. Go to your SeaMonkey install directory 2. Open chrome/messenger.jar with a ZIP program (e.g. 7-Zip) 3. Edit content/messenger/start.xhtml ( 4. Open chrome/en-US.jar with a ZIP program 5. Edit en-US/messenger/start.dtd ) Your changes will be overwritten whenever you update SM. If you ask how to do it for everyone: 1. File a bughttps://bugzilla.mozilla.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=SeaMonkey 2. Describe exactly what you propose 3. Find someone to implement it 4. Get the module owner (Karsten) to accept it HTH Jens Yes, Jens, you are right, I should put it in through Bugzilla.and if I can remember my password, I will!! On the given page ... https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=SeaMonkey ... you have the possibility to retrieve/create a new password based on your email adress: it's written: If you have an account, but have forgotten your password, enter your e-mail address below and submit a request to change your password. Ray, I've got myself in a messfirst time I wasn't sure of my password, tried several, until bugzilla barred me, then I located my real password and tried to retrieve/create my password, but, because I was barred, I cannot even change my password, so now I guess I'll have to make a new profile. Daniel ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
Daniel wrote: Ray_Net wrote: Daniel wrote: Jens Hatlak wrote: Daniel wrote: Several times, over the years, I have suggested that there *SHOULD* be a clickable link as part of the Mail Newsgroup splash screen, but, sadly, I'm still waiting. The alteration would have to happen in chrome://messenger/content/start.xhtml but I don't know how to do it. If you ask how to do it for yourself only: 1. Go to your SeaMonkey install directory 2. Open chrome/messenger.jar with a ZIP program (e.g. 7-Zip) 3. Edit content/messenger/start.xhtml ( 4. Open chrome/en-US.jar with a ZIP program 5. Edit en-US/messenger/start.dtd ) Your changes will be overwritten whenever you update SM. If you ask how to do it for everyone: 1. File a bughttps://bugzilla.mozilla.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=SeaMonkey 2. Describe exactly what you propose 3. Find someone to implement it 4. Get the module owner (Karsten) to accept it HTH Jens Yes, Jens, you are right, I should put it in through Bugzilla.and if I can remember my password, I will!! On the given page ... https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=SeaMonkey ... you have the possibility to retrieve/create a new password based on your email adress: it's written: If you have an account, but have forgotten your password, enter your e-mail address below and submit a request to change your password. Ray, I've got myself in a messfirst time I wasn't sure of my password, tried several, until bugzilla barred me, then I located my real password and tried to retrieve/create my password, but, because I was barred, I cannot even change my password, so now I guess I'll have to make a new profile. Shouldn't this be temporary? Try again. If that doesn't work, ask for support from an administrator. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
Andrea Govoni wrote: Ray_Net, I promise this is my last message in this thread. Il 12/02/10 14:58, Daniel ha scritto: Andrea, Phillip's message, in which he claims New Windows are ten times faster than New Tabs is 16th in this chain. So, you are referring to this [1] message. Well, by reading that message (ALL the message, even the quoted text) it's clear to any reasonable person that Philip Jones statement about SeaMonkey being ten times faster than before is about opening links in the *same window* as opposed to opening them in *new windows* (as it did before). If you still cannot understand it, even after re-reading that message, I give up trying to explain the obvious. [1] http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.support.seamonkey/msg/68fc9ab6b77fcf25 That's not the message I was referring to, though the message I am referring to is quoted in it. I'm referring to this passage: I have tabs turned off for now. But everything opens in new windows (which is better than tabs.). ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
Andrea Govoni wrote: Il 08/02/10 22:19, Benoit Renard ha scritto: Then again, Philip Jones has claimed that new windows are faster than new tabs, which is objectively wrong. Really? On this thread? Can you point me to the message where he claimed it? I cannot find it on this thread at the moment. Andrea, Phillip's message, in which he claims New Windows are ten times faster than New Tabs is 16th in this chain. My screen shows it as 47 lines long and it was posted at 14:59 UT on 1st Feb, i.e. about 10 days and 5 hours before your msg. If it helps the header looks like:- Path: Xl.tags.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.mozilla.org!news.mozilla.org.POSTED!not-for-mail NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2010 08:59:58 -0600 Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2010 09:59:58 -0500 From: Phillip Jones pjon...@kimbanet.com Reply-To: pjon...@kimbanet.com Organization: EPEA User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X 10.4; en-US; rv:1.9.1.7) Gecko/20100105 Lightning/1.0b1 SeaMonkey/2.0.2 HTH Daniel ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey--No Way
Mike C wrote: Leonidas Jones wrote: Mike C wrote: Leonidas Jones wrote: Mike C wrote: Rod Lovett wrote: /snip/ What addons are you waiting for? Unless you are waiting for something like Multizilla, which will probably never ladn for SM 2, I have found every addon I've used in a form that works fine with 2.0.x. Let us know wat addons you are haing problems with, perhaps we can help. Lee RoboForm http://www.roboform.com/browsers.html Here you will see that so far they only support SeaMonkey 1.0 - 1.1.* Ah yes, RoboForm. I've never used it, nor seen the need, but I know a lot of people fell they really need it. RoboForm has always been a real problem as far as keeping up with new versions, particularly with lesser used/known products. Heck, Safari is the most used browser on Mac OS, and they have never had a working version for it, though they keep promising. Maybe, once they see that SeaMonkey and Firefox are now much closer under the hood, they will be able to keep up with SeaMonkey versions in a more timely way. Lee Believe it or not, between my business sites, tech sites, sports sites, financial sites etc, etc, etc I have 148 sites that RoboForm remembers my passwords and logs me into automatically. I'd be lost without it. This is the newest reply I received from RoboForm: We are sorry, but currently there is no ETA for the support of Seamonkey 2. Please use Firefox instead. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
Ray_Net, I promise this is my last message in this thread. Il 12/02/10 14:58, Daniel ha scritto: Andrea, Phillip's message, in which he claims New Windows are ten times faster than New Tabs is 16th in this chain. So, you are referring to this [1] message. Well, by reading that message (ALL the message, even the quoted text) it's clear to any reasonable person that Philip Jones statement about SeaMonkey being ten times faster than before is about opening links in the *same window* as opposed to opening them in *new windows* (as it did before). If you still cannot understand it, even after re-reading that message, I give up trying to explain the obvious. [1] http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.support.seamonkey/msg/68fc9ab6b77fcf25 -- Andrea XFox Govoni AIM/iChat/ICQ: x...@mac.com Yahoo! ID: xfox82 Skype Name: draykan PGP KeyID: 0x212E69C1 Fingerprint: FBE1 CA7D 34BE 4A53 9639 5C36 B7A0 605F 212E 69C1 ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
Jens Hatlak wrote: Daniel wrote: Several times, over the years, I have suggested that there *SHOULD* be a clickable link as part of the Mail Newsgroup splash screen, but, sadly, I'm still waiting. The alteration would have to happen in chrome://messenger/content/start.xhtml but I don't know how to do it. If you ask how to do it for yourself only: 1. Go to your SeaMonkey install directory 2. Open chrome/messenger.jar with a ZIP program (e.g. 7-Zip) 3. Edit content/messenger/start.xhtml ( 4. Open chrome/en-US.jar with a ZIP program 5. Edit en-US/messenger/start.dtd ) Your changes will be overwritten whenever you update SM. If you ask how to do it for everyone: 1. File a bughttps://bugzilla.mozilla.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=SeaMonkey 2. Describe exactly what you propose 3. Find someone to implement it 4. Get the module owner (Karsten) to accept it HTH Jens Yes, Jens, you are right, I should put it in through Bugzilla.and if I can remember my password, I will!! Daniel ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey--No Way
Leonidas Jones wrote: Mike C wrote: Rod Lovett wrote: Hi, with due respect, but no way!!! seamonkey 2.0.x is great I am now using Seamonkey 2.0.4pre 64 bit in 64 bit Sidux moros, which is debian unstable with considerable help, and what is really clever, SM is now a rolling release browser that updates itself. The download manager is heaps better too. It goes really well and with updates and in my humble opinion, you can't get better than that. It gets around any, in my opinion, silly trademark tiffs in Open Source too thank heavens. Cheers Rod It might be great BUT some of us are waiting for the add on creators to catch up. What addons are you waiting for? Unless you are waiting for something like Multizilla, which will probably never ladn for SM 2, I have found every addon I've used in a form that works fine with 2.0.x. Let us know wat addons you are haing problems with, perhaps we can help. Lee RoboForm http://www.roboform.com/browsers.html Here you will see that so far they only support SeaMonkey 1.0 - 1.1.* ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
Daniel wrote: Jens Hatlak wrote: Daniel wrote: Several times, over the years, I have suggested that there *SHOULD* be a clickable link as part of the Mail Newsgroup splash screen, but, sadly, I'm still waiting. The alteration would have to happen in chrome://messenger/content/start.xhtml but I don't know how to do it. If you ask how to do it for yourself only: 1. Go to your SeaMonkey install directory 2. Open chrome/messenger.jar with a ZIP program (e.g. 7-Zip) 3. Edit content/messenger/start.xhtml ( 4. Open chrome/en-US.jar with a ZIP program 5. Edit en-US/messenger/start.dtd ) Your changes will be overwritten whenever you update SM. If you ask how to do it for everyone: 1. File a bughttps://bugzilla.mozilla.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=SeaMonkey 2. Describe exactly what you propose 3. Find someone to implement it 4. Get the module owner (Karsten) to accept it HTH Jens Yes, Jens, you are right, I should put it in through Bugzilla.and if I can remember my password, I will!! On the given page ... https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=SeaMonkey ... you have the possibility to retrieve/create a new password based on your email adress: it's written: If you have an account, but have forgotten your password, enter your e-mail address below and submit a request to change your password. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
Il 07/02/10 21:09, Phillip Jones ha scritto: Andrea Govoni wrote: Did you try to have a run with all your extensions disabled? yes with all extensions off or on. Maybe you could try to install Crash Report Helper [1] nonetheless. It will not be of any help with crashes caused by the application itself but it should catch crashes caused by extensions and plug-ins. [1] https://addons.mozilla.org/it/seamonkey/addon/11217 -- Andrea XFox Govoni AIM/iChat/ICQ: x...@mac.com Yahoo! ID: xfox82 Skype Name: draykan PGP KeyID: 0x212E69C1 Fingerprint: FBE1 CA7D 34BE 4A53 9639 5C36 B7A0 605F 212E 69C1 ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
Il 08/02/10 22:19, Benoit Renard ha scritto: Then again, Philip Jones has claimed that new windows are faster than new tabs, which is objectively wrong. Really? On this thread? Can you point me to the message where he claimed it? I cannot find it on this thread at the moment. -- Andrea XFox Govoni AIM/iChat/ICQ: x...@mac.com Yahoo! ID: xfox82 Skype Name: draykan PGP KeyID: 0x212E69C1 Fingerprint: FBE1 CA7D 34BE 4A53 9639 5C36 B7A0 605F 212E 69C1 ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
Andrea Govoni wrote: Il 08/02/10 22:19, Benoit Renard ha scritto: Then again, Philip Jones has claimed that new windows are faster than new tabs, which is objectively wrong. Really? On this thread? Can you point me to the message where he claimed it? I cannot find it on this thread at the moment. This too long thread with multiple branches should be closed. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
Andrea Govoni wrote: Il 07/02/10 21:09, Phillip Jones ha scritto: Andrea Govoni wrote: Did you try to have a run with all your extensions disabled? yes with all extensions off or on. Maybe you could try to install Crash Report Helper [1] nonetheless. It will not be of any help with crashes caused by the application itself but it should catch crashes caused by extensions and plug-ins. [1]https://addons.mozilla.org/it/seamonkey/addon/11217 This too long thread with multiple branches nad out-of-topic should be closed. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey--No Way
Mike C wrote: Leonidas Jones wrote: Mike C wrote: Rod Lovett wrote: /snip/ What addons are you waiting for? Unless you are waiting for something like Multizilla, which will probably never ladn for SM 2, I have found every addon I've used in a form that works fine with 2.0.x. Let us know wat addons you are haing problems with, perhaps we can help. Lee RoboForm http://www.roboform.com/browsers.html Here you will see that so far they only support SeaMonkey 1.0 - 1.1.* Ah yes, RoboForm. I've never used it, nor seen the need, but I know a lot of people fell they really need it. RoboForm has always been a real problem as far as keeping up with new versions, particularly with lesser used/known products. Heck, Safari is the most used browser on Mac OS, and they have never had a working version for it, though they keep promising. Maybe, once they see that SeaMonkey and Firefox are now much closer under the hood, they will be able to keep up with SeaMonkey versions in a more timely way. Lee ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
Andrea Govoni wrote: Il 07/02/10 21:09, Phillip Jones ha scritto: Andrea Govoni wrote: Did you try to have a run with all your extensions disabled? yes with all extensions off or on. Maybe you could try to install Crash Report Helper [1] nonetheless. It will not be of any help with crashes caused by the application itself but it should catch crashes caused by extensions and plug-ins. [1]https://addons.mozilla.org/it/seamonkey/addon/11217 Installed when restarted SM not came up stating last crash was not as a result of addons. -- Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T.If it's Fixed, Don't Break it http://www.phillipmjones.net http://www.vpea.org mailto:pjon...@kimbanet.com ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
Phillip Jones wrote: Andrea Govoni wrote: Il 07/02/10 21:09, Phillip Jones ha scritto: Andrea Govoni wrote: Did you try to have a run with all your extensions disabled? yes with all extensions off or on. Maybe you could try to install Crash Report Helper [1] nonetheless. It will not be of any help with crashes caused by the application itself but it should catch crashes caused by extensions and plug-ins. [1]https://addons.mozilla.org/it/seamonkey/addon/11217 Installed when restarted SM not came up stating last crash was not as a result of addons. Supposed to be: Installed, when restarted, SM *now* came up stating last crash was not as a result of addons. -- Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T.If it's Fixed, Don't Break it http://www.phillipmjones.net http://www.vpea.org mailto:pjon...@kimbanet.com ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey--No Way
Leonidas Jones wrote: Mike C wrote: Leonidas Jones wrote: Mike C wrote: Rod Lovett wrote: /snip/ What addons are you waiting for? Unless you are waiting for something like Multizilla, which will probably never ladn for SM 2, I have found every addon I've used in a form that works fine with 2.0.x. Let us know wat addons you are haing problems with, perhaps we can help. Lee RoboForm http://www.roboform.com/browsers.html Here you will see that so far they only support SeaMonkey 1.0 - 1.1.* Ah yes, RoboForm. I've never used it, nor seen the need, but I know a lot of people fell they really need it. RoboForm has always been a real problem as far as keeping up with new versions, particularly with lesser used/known products. Heck, Safari is the most used browser on Mac OS, and they have never had a working version for it, though they keep promising. Maybe, once they see that SeaMonkey and Firefox are now much closer under the hood, they will be able to keep up with SeaMonkey versions in a more timely way. Lee Believe it or not, between my business sites, tech sites, sports sites, financial sites etc, etc, etc I have 148 sites that RoboForm remembers my passwords and logs me into automatically. I'd be lost without it. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
OT ISP's (was: Re: Goodbye Seamonkey)
Rufus wrote: Philip Chee wrote: On Tue, 09 Feb 2010 03:10:25 -0700, BJ wrote: Chris Ilias wrote: Snip ...OTOH, they made a SERIOUS mess of upgrading our e-mail service - took a month or two to get that sorted, but they seem to have it fixed. Hey, Rufus, did you get lots of e-mails (from your ISP) requesting you to log into your account?? I do!! Daniel ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Mac theme (Re: Goodbye Seamonkey)
Rufus skriver: Most of the things that annoyed me about the new default theme had to do with it's cursor/click hot areas - there was/is a lot of area in the taskbar where I felt I should have been able to right click (cntrl+click) that were/are dead...so that was both non-intuitive and difficult - particularly with my MacBook Pro trackpad. The other thing was the lack of grippie function for the Sidebars - lots of chat here about the Apple standard not allowing them the way they were/are in the Modern theme...I think the best suggestion was to just make the whole bar function as a grippie, vice just a small patch around the center dot. These two issues alone drove me screaming to the Modern theme after about a week...been far happier using that one. Thunderbird doesn't have any grippies. What do you actually think is better from a mac point of view in Thunderbird? Note that I'm not arguing/challenging here - I'm just trying to understand what you think is better in thunderbird from a mac pov. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
Daniel wrote: Several times, over the years, I have suggested that there *SHOULD* be a clickable link as part of the Mail Newsgroup splash screen, but, sadly, I'm still waiting. The alteration would have to happen in chrome://messenger/content/start.xhtml but I don't know how to do it. If you ask how to do it for yourself only: 1. Go to your SeaMonkey install directory 2. Open chrome/messenger.jar with a ZIP program (e.g. 7-Zip) 3. Edit content/messenger/start.xhtml ( 4. Open chrome/en-US.jar with a ZIP program 5. Edit en-US/messenger/start.dtd ) Your changes will be overwritten whenever you update SM. If you ask how to do it for everyone: 1. File a bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=SeaMonkey 2. Describe exactly what you propose 3. Find someone to implement it 4. Get the module owner (Karsten) to accept it HTH Jens -- Jens Hatlak http://jens.hatlak.de/ SeaMonkey Trunk Tracker http://smtt.blogspot.com/ ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Mac theme (Re: Goodbye Seamonkey)
Stefan wrote: Rufus skriver: Most of the things that annoyed me about the new default theme had to do with it's cursor/click hot areas - there was/is a lot of area in the taskbar where I felt I should have been able to right click (cntrl+click) that were/are dead...so that was both non-intuitive and difficult - particularly with my MacBook Pro trackpad. The other thing was the lack of grippie function for the Sidebars - lots of chat here about the Apple standard not allowing them the way they were/are in the Modern theme...I think the best suggestion was to just make the whole bar function as a grippie, vice just a small patch around the center dot. These two issues alone drove me screaming to the Modern theme after about a week...been far happier using that one. Thunderbird doesn't have any grippies. What do you actually think is better from a mac point of view in Thunderbird? Note that I'm not arguing/challenging here - I'm just trying to understand what you think is better in thunderbird from a mac pov. It does if you use the Orbit Theme. and did with the SkyPilot Theme. Makes the email windows easier to adjust. I use the three Pane Mode I set to show the address/header infor for just 5 post then it easy to click on them one at the time and read post. You can also easily go to different sub directories in each mail box. They are a great help. -- Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T.If it's Fixed, Don't Break it http://www.phillipmjones.net http://www.vpea.org mailto:pjon...@kimbanet.com ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey--No Way
Rod Lovett wrote: Hi, with due respect, but no way!!! seamonkey 2.0.x is great I am now using Seamonkey 2.0.4pre 64 bit in 64 bit Sidux moros, which is debian unstable with considerable help, and what is really clever, SM is now a rolling release browser that updates itself. The download manager is heaps better too. It goes really well and with updates and in my humble opinion, you can't get better than that. It gets around any, in my opinion, silly trademark tiffs in Open Source too thank heavens. Cheers Rod It might be great BUT some of us are waiting for the add on creators to catch up. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey--No Way
Mike C wrote: Rod Lovett wrote: Hi, with due respect, but no way!!! seamonkey 2.0.x is great I am now using Seamonkey 2.0.4pre 64 bit in 64 bit Sidux moros, which is debian unstable with considerable help, and what is really clever, SM is now a rolling release browser that updates itself. The download manager is heaps better too. It goes really well and with updates and in my humble opinion, you can't get better than that. It gets around any, in my opinion, silly trademark tiffs in Open Source too thank heavens. Cheers Rod It might be great BUT some of us are waiting for the add on creators to catch up. What addons are you waiting for? Unless you are waiting for something like Multizilla, which will probably never ladn for SM 2, I have found every addon I've used in a form that works fine with 2.0.x. Let us know wat addons you are haing problems with, perhaps we can help. Lee ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
Chris Ilias wrote: On 10-02-09 9:29 PM, Rufus wrote: My argument is that the collective opinions of any userbase in any discussion forum is the best dataset for user experience, and that to ignore it - in any venue - is folly in the long run. No matter what your hired gun may say. Then we're going in circles. I've already explained that user experience work includes design. It's not just telling developers what users think (let alone ignoring users). ...the real user experience includes the experience of the users...not much else. -- - Rufus ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
Ubiquity wrote: Chris Ilias wrote: * A forum like this requires knowing how to use newsgroups. something you know nothing about Many people use the word forum to refer to website based groups. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
Chris Ilias wrote: This newsgroup is not an accurate representation of the SeaMonkey userbase. How do you know that? Seriously, unless you took a poll of the userbase with a question like Do you think posters on the SM NG represent your concerns, and the majority answered No, your statement is purely anecdotal. Intuitive, maybe (and that's arguable), nevertheless it's anecdotal and not founded on factual evidence. Plus, I don't think that's the point anyway (in debate lingo, your statement would be called a Red Herring). Rufus's argument is based on the valid notion that posters here have legitimate issues (which I don't think you disagree with). Now you've brought up the point that the SM staff doesn't have enough resources to patrol these NG's, and the may indeed be an issue. But the issue is NOT that this NG is or is not an accurate representation of the SeaMonkey userbase. That's largely irrelevant and may only come into play if the SM group uses it to establish priorities . . . and even then I come back to How do you know that? BJ ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
Rufus wrote: Chris Ilias wrote: On 10-02-08 9:07 PM, Rufus wrote: Chris Ilias wrote: On 10-02-07 4:10 PM, Rufus wrote: Chris Ilias wrote: You said your users are your best user experience people. Users communicate what is on their minds, not the workarounds they have gotten used to. What's on their mind is their experience. A forum like this is where people come primarily to solve problems they encounter...a lot of UI/UE information can be mined from such forums - IMO, the team should feel free to ask us users questions too, just as you did. * A forum like this requires knowing how to use newsgroups. So what? It's still a source of information, just like the bug reports forum...a free source. Doesn't relieve the team of coming up with a way to use that information on their own. SO unless the knowledge to use a newsgroup is common knowledge, the users here are not the best user experience people. This newsgroup is not an accurate representation of the SeaMonkey userbase. Then what's it here for? I think people who post here are posting accurate observations concerning their own experiences. That's just another way of saying not to listen to them. ...and as someone else pointed out, the way here is presented on the initial splash screen every time a use installs a new version of SM and launches it for the first time. So every SM user has a chance to know that this forum exists. I hope you are not referring to me, Rufus. Several times, over the years, I have suggested that there *SHOULD* be a clickable link as part of the Mail Newsgroup splash screen, but, sadly, I'm still waiting. The alteration would have to happen in chrome://messenger/content/start.xhtml but I don't know how to do it. Anybody?? Daniel ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
On Tue, 09 Feb 2010 03:10:25 -0700, BJ wrote: Chris Ilias wrote: This newsgroup is not an accurate representation of the SeaMonkey userbase. How do you know that? The sad fact is that nowadays usenet and nntp newsgroups in general are now pretty much a minority interest. Most internet users these days don't even know about usenet, or if they do, they think it is part of google groups. The preferences of the current web 2.0 generation are various forms of web forums (e.g. Mozillazine) and (shudder) social networking sites. Phil -- Philip Chee phi...@aleytys.pc.my, philip.c...@gmail.com http://flashblock.mozdev.org/ http://xsidebar.mozdev.org Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief, oh Night, and so be good for us to pass. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
Philip Chee wrote: On Tue, 09 Feb 2010 03:10:25 -0700, BJ wrote: Chris Ilias wrote: This newsgroup is not an accurate representation of the SeaMonkey userbase. How do you know that? The sad fact is that nowadays usenet and nntp newsgroups in general are now pretty much a minority interest. Most internet users these days don't even know about usenet, or if they do, they think it is part of google groups. The preferences of the current web 2.0 generation are various forms of web forums (e.g. Mozillazine) and (shudder) social networking sites. Right. Think how many more users we would have if we'd have an active Facebook fan group *shudder*. Robert Kaiser ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
Philip Chee wrote: On Tue, 09 Feb 2010 03:10:25 -0700, BJ wrote: Chris Ilias wrote: This newsgroup is not an accurate representation of the SeaMonkey userbase. How do you know that? The sad fact is that nowadays usenet and nntp newsgroups in general are now pretty much a minority interest. Most internet users these days don't even know about usenet, or if they do, they think it is part of google groups. The preferences of the current web 2.0 generation are various forms of web forums (e.g. Mozillazine) and (shudder) social networking sites. Phil I don't disagree that NG users are a minority, but that still doesn't show whether or not they're an accurate representation of the SeaMonkey userbase. Quakers are a minority, and they DO represent a much larger anti-war movement (apologies to Quakers . . . that's the only analogy I can come up with on the spur of the moment). Quakers are a minority, and they DON'T represent a much larger anti-war movement. Both statements may or may NOT reflect your opinion, depending on your own viewpoint. And that's my point: These things will remain subjective opinions and anecdotal until they are supported by FACTS (that would be the mythical pole I referred to in another post). In any case, I still maintain this is a Red Herring and largely irrelevant to the issue raised by Rufus. BJ P.S. I also shudder at social networking sites. In a lot of cases they are nests for malware. I have no use for them. P.P.S. That would be another interesting poll. Are SM users representative of the social networking userbase? My sense is that they are NOT, but that is based only on anecdotal opinion and NOT on fact. That will remain a subjective opinion until that poll is taken. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
Philip Chee wrote: On Tue, 09 Feb 2010 03:10:25 -0700, BJ wrote: Chris Ilias wrote: This newsgroup is not an accurate representation of the SeaMonkey userbase. How do you know that? The sad fact is that nowadays usenet and nntp newsgroups in general are now pretty much a minority interest. Most internet users these days don't even know about usenet, or if they do, they think it is part of google groups. The preferences of the current web 2.0 generation are various forms of web forums (e.g. Mozillazine) and (shudder) social networking sites. Phil I don't do social networking sites. Too insecure! -- Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T.If it's Fixed, Don't Break it http://www.phillipmjones.net http://www.vpea.org mailto:pjon...@kimbanet.com ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
Robert Kaiser wrote: Philip Chee wrote: On Tue, 09 Feb 2010 03:10:25 -0700, BJ wrote: Chris Ilias wrote: This newsgroup is not an accurate representation of the SeaMonkey userbase. How do you know that? The sad fact is that nowadays usenet and nntp newsgroups in general are now pretty much a minority interest. Most internet users these days don't even know about usenet, or if they do, they think it is part of google groups. The preferences of the current web 2.0 generation are various forms of web forums (e.g. Mozillazine) and (shudder) social networking sites. Right. Think how many more users we would have if we'd have an active Facebook fan group *shudder*. Robert Kaiser You wouldn't see me their unless security is much improved. -- Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T.If it's Fixed, Don't Break it http://www.phillipmjones.net http://www.vpea.org mailto:pjon...@kimbanet.com ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
On 10-02-09 5:10 AM, BJ wrote: Chris Ilias wrote: This newsgroup is not an accurate representation of the SeaMonkey userbase. How do you know that? Seriously, unless you took a poll of the userbase with a question like Do you think posters on the SM NG represent your concerns, and the majority answered No, your statement is purely anecdotal. Intuitive, maybe (and that's arguable), nevertheless it's anecdotal and not founded on factual evidence. In addition to Phillip and Robert's answers, I'd also like to add that I did test this once. In this newsgroup, the reaction to the tab preview feature in SeaMonkey 1.1 was very negative. I did a poll on seamonkey.ilias.ca, asking if users liked the new feature, and the yes answers won. Plus, I don't think that's the point anyway (in debate lingo, your statement would be called a Red Herring). Rufus's argument is based on the valid notion that posters here have legitimate issues (which I don't think you disagree with). His argument is that the users here are the best user experience people for SeaMonkey. -- Chris Ilias http://ilias.ca List-owner: support-firefox, support-thunderbird, test-multimedia Keeper of the Knowledge Base: https://support.mozilla.com/kb/ ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Mac theme (Re: Goodbye Seamonkey)
Rufus skriver: I was, and surprisingly so...I immediately liked the tabs, and everything was where I would have expected it to be on a Mac. It also didn't seem like I lost any functionality for what I do with TB like I did with SM 2.x.x, and that was also of note. It's funny that you mention the tabs, which I didn't changed when I did the theme overhaul. Do you think most mac users prefer north-facing tabs? Maybe that team has more Mac users on it or something, but from my Mac user standpoint they got a lot of stuff right. Kudos to them. I'm interested in what you think would be getting things right from a mac perspective while still keeping SeaMonkey different. Note here the user interface consists of both theme (icons, colors etc) and ui elements (buttons, windows, drop-down lists etc). Oh, right: Please do not hijack this new thread with non-mac stuff ;-) /Stefan ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Mac theme (Re: Goodbye Seamonkey)
Stefan wrote: Rufus skriver: I was, and surprisingly so...I immediately liked the tabs, and everything was where I would have expected it to be on a Mac. It also didn't seem like I lost any functionality for what I do with TB like I did with SM 2.x.x, and that was also of note. It's funny that you mention the tabs, which I didn't changed when I did the theme overhaul. Do you think most mac users prefer north-facing tabs? I'm a Mac user and it doesn't make any difference whether the face North, South, East or West; cause I don't use them. Maybe that team has more Mac users on it or something, but from my Mac user standpoint they got a lot of stuff right. Kudos to them. If anything they lucked up on the Mac Team. cause they have far less Mac Team members. I'm interested in what you think would be getting things right from a mac perspective while still keeping SeaMonkey different. Note here the user interface consists of both theme (icons, colors etc) and ui elements (buttons, windows, drop-down lists etc). Oh, right: Please do not hijack this new thread with non-mac stuff ;-) /Stefan -- Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T.If it's Fixed, Don't Break it http://www.phillipmjones.net http://www.vpea.org mailto:pjon...@kimbanet.com ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
Chris Ilias wrote: Personally, I've never used the Forms Manager...but the only reason I haven't that I can determine now that I'm reading so much displeasure about it's removal is that I couldn't determine if information it stores is encrypted or not. If it was and a dialog box had told me that, I now think that would have, and would be, using it. I don't, so I don't miss it...but that's just me. (I posted a number of comments on what I felt were/are deficiencies concerning the removal of information from dialog boxes when I first looked over SM 2.0.) Then there was this: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=513691 Or read through the thread titled Found reason Dowload Manager doesn't come up right., posted this forum. I quit monitoring this issue because it's been beat to death and the individual that coded it refused to do anything about it other than state the old way looked like crap...at least that was the initial response to user feedback, even though several other members of the SM team submitted their own input for considering revision to a larger size, and also invited me to provide my own insights and opinions in support of them. So as a user, providing UI/UE input, from a user point of view, neither the teammates or I were even being considered by the guy that had the reins to actually do something. This looks to me like a combination of not understanding bugzilla and not trying to turn the issue into something different. * If the bug were slapped down (granted, we may have a different understanding of what that means), the bug would have been resolved as 'wontfix'. It was kept open; which means Robert was providing his input, not turning down the bug report. * The issue (although I didn't read the bug thoroughly) was that neither the old UI nor the new one are considered good. The new one was not considered good by most users. The old one was not considered good by /a single person/. In fact, in all the years that I've been providing SeaMonkey support, I don't think I've read a single complaint about the old download progress dialog. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
Benoit Renard wrote: Chris Ilias wrote: Personally, I've never used the Forms Manager...but the only reason I haven't that I can determine now that I'm reading so much displeasure about it's removal is that I couldn't determine if information it stores is encrypted or not. If it was and a dialog box had told me that, I now think that would have, and would be, using it. I don't, so I don't miss it...but that's just me. (I posted a number of comments on what I felt were/are deficiencies concerning the removal of information from dialog boxes when I first looked over SM 2.0.) Then there was this: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=513691 Or read through the thread titled Found reason Dowload Manager doesn't come up right., posted this forum. I quit monitoring this issue because it's been beat to death and the individual that coded it refused to do anything about it other than state the old way looked like crap...at least that was the initial response to user feedback, even though several other members of the SM team submitted their own input for considering revision to a larger size, and also invited me to provide my own insights and opinions in support of them. So as a user, providing UI/UE input, from a user point of view, neither the teammates or I were even being considered by the guy that had the reins to actually do something. This looks to me like a combination of not understanding bugzilla and not trying to turn the issue into something different. * If the bug were slapped down (granted, we may have a different understanding of what that means), the bug would have been resolved as 'wontfix'. It was kept open; which means Robert was providing his input, not turning down the bug report. * The issue (although I didn't read the bug thoroughly) was that neither the old UI nor the new one are considered good. The new one was not considered good by most users. The old one was not considered good by /a single person/. In fact, in all the years that I've been providing SeaMonkey support, I don't think I've read a single complaint about the old download progress dialog. The biggest problem with the Progress bar for download in the download manager is that it was designed had 50/20 vision each eye. (meaning you can see as well at 50 feet that everyone else can see at 20 feet). the current height is __ --- or smaller in 1.1.8 it was or larger I wear glasses and the current version its all I can do to read the print and view the Bar graph. -- Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T.If it's Fixed, Don't Break it http://www.phillipmjones.net http://www.vpea.org mailto:pjon...@kimbanet.com ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
Chris Ilias wrote: On 10-02-09 12:57 AM, Rufus wrote: Chris Ilias wrote: SO unless the knowledge to use a newsgroup is common knowledge, the users here are not the best user experience people. This newsgroup is not an accurate representation of the SeaMonkey userbase. Then what's it here for? I think people who post here are posting accurate observations concerning their own experiences. That's just another way of saying not to listen to them. This newsgroup is here for users to get user support (for those who prefer newsgroups). There is also a web-forum on MozillaZine for those who prefer web-based forums. And there's an IRC channel on irc.mozilla.org. Many users prefer live telephone-based support, but the SeaMonkey project does not have the resources for that. There are some user metrics that can be gathered here, and they would be useful, but not an accurate representation of the entire userbase. ...which is why I didn't say it was a sole source - I said it was a useful source. But I still contend that it's accurate...I don't think anyone comes here to spoof issues, problems, or annoyances. -- - Rufus ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
Rick Merrill wrote: Ubiquity wrote: Chris Ilias wrote: * A forum like this requires knowing how to use newsgroups. something you know nothing about Many people use the word forum to refer to website based groups. I use forum to refer to any manner though which discussion can take place between some number of people - including face to face meetings. -- - Rufus ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
Daniel wrote: Rufus wrote: Chris Ilias wrote: On 10-02-08 9:07 PM, Rufus wrote: Chris Ilias wrote: On 10-02-07 4:10 PM, Rufus wrote: Chris Ilias wrote: You said your users are your best user experience people. Users communicate what is on their minds, not the workarounds they have gotten used to. What's on their mind is their experience. A forum like this is where people come primarily to solve problems they encounter...a lot of UI/UE information can be mined from such forums - IMO, the team should feel free to ask us users questions too, just as you did. * A forum like this requires knowing how to use newsgroups. So what? It's still a source of information, just like the bug reports forum...a free source. Doesn't relieve the team of coming up with a way to use that information on their own. SO unless the knowledge to use a newsgroup is common knowledge, the users here are not the best user experience people. This newsgroup is not an accurate representation of the SeaMonkey userbase. Then what's it here for? I think people who post here are posting accurate observations concerning their own experiences. That's just another way of saying not to listen to them. ...and as someone else pointed out, the way here is presented on the initial splash screen every time a use installs a new version of SM and launches it for the first time. So every SM user has a chance to know that this forum exists. I hope you are not referring to me, Rufus. Several times, over the years, I have suggested that there *SHOULD* be a clickable link as part of the Mail Newsgroup splash screen, but, sadly, I'm still waiting. The alteration would have to happen in chrome://messenger/content/start.xhtml but I don't know how to do it. Anybody?? Daniel That would be a great idea...best place to build it in would be a default splash for Mail/News. Or even build an news.mozilla.org account into Mail/News as a default - at least the account, if not actual subscriptions. What's on the initial browser splash is nice, if the user actually looks at it and follows the link to the SM home page for some further reading...which is what I did the first time, I think. May have been the other way around - found the home page, read, decided to try, then subscribed, as I'd been using Mozilla Suite previously. Either way, I'd consider it effective. -- - Rufus ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
Philip Chee wrote: On Tue, 09 Feb 2010 03:10:25 -0700, BJ wrote: Chris Ilias wrote: This newsgroup is not an accurate representation of the SeaMonkey userbase. How do you know that? The sad fact is that nowadays usenet and nntp newsgroups in general are now pretty much a minority interest. Most internet users these days don't even know about usenet, or if they do, they think it is part of google groups. The preferences of the current web 2.0 generation are various forms of web forums (e.g. Mozillazine) and (shudder) social networking sites. Phil It's been an odd thing that when most ISPs are dropping ussenet support, my ISP has actually improved my service - drastically so. I've noticed my access is now far faster, and has far longer retention than it did prior to Christmas time... ...OTOH, they made a SERIOUS mess of upgrading our e-mail service - took a month or two to get that sorted, but they seem to have it fixed. -- - Rufus ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
BJ wrote: Philip Chee wrote: On Tue, 09 Feb 2010 03:10:25 -0700, BJ wrote: Chris Ilias wrote: This newsgroup is not an accurate representation of the SeaMonkey userbase. How do you know that? The sad fact is that nowadays usenet and nntp newsgroups in general are now pretty much a minority interest. Most internet users these days don't even know about usenet, or if they do, they think it is part of google groups. The preferences of the current web 2.0 generation are various forms of web forums (e.g. Mozillazine) and (shudder) social networking sites. Phil I don't disagree that NG users are a minority, but that still doesn't show whether or not they're an accurate representation of the SeaMonkey userbase. Quakers are a minority, and they DO represent a much larger anti-war movement (apologies to Quakers . . . that's the only analogy I can come up with on the spur of the moment). Quakers are a minority, and they DON'T represent a much larger anti-war movement. Both statements may or may NOT reflect your opinion, depending on your own viewpoint. And that's my point: These things will remain subjective opinions and anecdotal until they are supported by FACTS (that would be the mythical pole I referred to in another post). In any case, I still maintain this is a Red Herring and largely irrelevant to the issue raised by Rufus. BJ P.S. I also shudder at social networking sites. In a lot of cases they are nests for malware. I have no use for them. ...me too. Simply refuse to use them - never have. P.P.S. That would be another interesting poll. Are SM users representative of the social networking userbase? My sense is that they are NOT, but that is based only on anecdotal opinion and NOT on fact. That will remain a subjective opinion until that poll is taken. I'd think they are a sub-set in the very least. One can use any browser to social network...but do all or most SM users use social networking? Could go either way... -- - Rufus ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
Chris Ilias wrote: On 10-02-09 5:10 AM, BJ wrote: Chris Ilias wrote: This newsgroup is not an accurate representation of the SeaMonkey userbase. How do you know that? Seriously, unless you took a poll of the userbase with a question like Do you think posters on the SM NG represent your concerns, and the majority answered No, your statement is purely anecdotal. Intuitive, maybe (and that's arguable), nevertheless it's anecdotal and not founded on factual evidence. In addition to Phillip and Robert's answers, I'd also like to add that I did test this once. In this newsgroup, the reaction to the tab preview feature in SeaMonkey 1.1 was very negative. I did a poll on seamonkey.ilias.ca, asking if users liked the new feature, and the yes answers won. Plus, I don't think that's the point anyway (in debate lingo, your statement would be called a Red Herring). Rufus's argument is based on the valid notion that posters here have legitimate issues (which I don't think you disagree with). His argument is that the users here are the best user experience people for SeaMonkey. My argument is that the collective opinions of any userbase in any discussion forum is the best dataset for user experience, and that to ignore it - in any venue - is folly in the long run. No matter what your hired gun may say. -- - Rufus ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Mac theme (Re: Goodbye Seamonkey)
On 02/09/2010 01:46 PM, Stefan wrote: ... Oh, right: Please do not hijack this new thread with non-mac stuff ;-) /Stefan Oh BTW 'Mac theme (Re: Goodbye Seamonkey' is *not* a new thread... you've simply added to the existing thread by changing the subject. Why don't you take a clue and actually start a *new* thread instead? Do you, and the others discussing Mac other unlrelated issues in this thread (perhaps soon to be the longest thread of late) will over time show any useful information to your issues? Think ahead 6 or 12 months when someone is searching the mozilla.support.seamonkey threads for issues that you/Rufus-the-wordy/Phillip-the-whatever bring up in this thread then wonder why they can't find a solution suggested, or previous opinion. Rufus Phillip have been asked (on several occasions) to start new threads regarding their issues, yet they continue to post ad nauseam in this thread. Perhap this is a Mac user syndrome... I don't know, but the fact is that you *didn't* start a new thread, you merely changed the subthread subject of the original. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Mac theme (Re: Goodbye Seamonkey)
Stefan wrote: Rufus skriver: I was, and surprisingly so...I immediately liked the tabs, and everything was where I would have expected it to be on a Mac. It also didn't seem like I lost any functionality for what I do with TB like I did with SM 2.x.x, and that was also of note. It's funny that you mention the tabs, which I didn't changed when I did the theme overhaul. Do you think most mac users prefer north-facing tabs? ...hmmnnn...never thought about it. I don't think it makes that much difference to me personally. I know I really like tabs! What may be more relevant is if a user always prefers tabs at the top of the page. I know I prefer the tabs to be close to my taskbars - saves movement. But that also may only be because I've never had a choice...maybe I'd prefer them on the bottom, or on the side...or someone else might. I could see how maybe a Mac user that prefers his Dock placed other than on the bottom of the screen may also like to have his tabs located/oriented differently, in reflection of how his desktop workspace is oriented...interesting thought. Maybe that team has more Mac users on it or something, but from my Mac user standpoint they got a lot of stuff right. Kudos to them. I'm interested in what you think would be getting things right from a mac perspective while still keeping SeaMonkey different. Note here the user interface consists of both theme (icons, colors etc) and ui elements (buttons, windows, drop-down lists etc). For one, I think the basic colors are ok. From a Mac standpoint, there really isn't much choice for the colors if you're using Apples standard, or are trying to reflect the theme of the OS X system interface. Aesthetically, if the SM Modern theme were just monochromed to match the OS X color scheme instead of it's current silver/blue, that would be a very good start, IMO. Maybe drop some of the sculpting lines - like around the Location bar. I also like to use a large navigation bar and a small Personal Items bar - items on the small bar appear a bit too close together, I'd space them out...but just a bit. I work around by dragging spaces into the Personal Items bar. Most of the things that annoyed me about the new default theme had to do with it's cursor/click hot areas - there was/is a lot of area in the taskbar where I felt I should have been able to right click (cntrl+click) that were/are dead...so that was both non-intuitive and difficult - particularly with my MacBook Pro trackpad. The other thing was the lack of grippie function for the Sidebars - lots of chat here about the Apple standard not allowing them the way they were/are in the Modern theme...I think the best suggestion was to just make the whole bar function as a grippie, vice just a small patch around the center dot. These two issues alone drove me screaming to the Modern theme after about a week...been far happier using that one. A different feature which I've mentioned here - and have been told is actually in the works for SM - would be the ability to open Mail/News in a tab in the current browser window vise a window of it's own...Opera does this, and it's REALLY slick for use on a laptop; never would have guessed until I tried it. I'd like to see the option retained for opening Mail/News in it's own window/own tabs as current, though - like we can do for the browser. A some of what made SM different in the first place got lost moving from 1.1.18 to 2.x...I'd certainly like to have ALL of those user options back, and I know a lot of folk are screaming for the Forms Manager in particular - if/when that comes back, I'd add the ability for the user to encrypt vice obscure it's stored contents like in the Password Manager. I'd use it then. Oh, right: Please do not hijack this new thread with non-mac stuff ;-) /Stefan WILCO. -- - Rufus ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
Phillip Jones wrote: Benoit Renard wrote: Chris Ilias wrote: Personally, I've never used the Forms Manager...but the only reason I haven't that I can determine now that I'm reading so much displeasure about it's removal is that I couldn't determine if information it stores is encrypted or not. If it was and a dialog box had told me that, I now think that would have, and would be, using it. I don't, so I don't miss it...but that's just me. (I posted a number of comments on what I felt were/are deficiencies concerning the removal of information from dialog boxes when I first looked over SM 2.0.) Then there was this: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=513691 Or read through the thread titled Found reason Dowload Manager doesn't come up right., posted this forum. I quit monitoring this issue because it's been beat to death and the individual that coded it refused to do anything about it other than state the old way looked like crap...at least that was the initial response to user feedback, even though several other members of the SM team submitted their own input for considering revision to a larger size, and also invited me to provide my own insights and opinions in support of them. So as a user, providing UI/UE input, from a user point of view, neither the teammates or I were even being considered by the guy that had the reins to actually do something. This looks to me like a combination of not understanding bugzilla and not trying to turn the issue into something different. * If the bug were slapped down (granted, we may have a different understanding of what that means), the bug would have been resolved as 'wontfix'. It was kept open; which means Robert was providing his input, not turning down the bug report. * The issue (although I didn't read the bug thoroughly) was that neither the old UI nor the new one are considered good. The new one was not considered good by most users. The old one was not considered good by /a single person/. In fact, in all the years that I've been providing SeaMonkey support, I don't think I've read a single complaint about the old download progress dialog. The biggest problem with the Progress bar for download in the download manager is that it was designed had 50/20 vision each eye. (meaning you can see as well at 50 feet that everyone else can see at 20 feet). the current height is __ --- or smaller in 1.1.8 it was or larger I wear glasses and the current version its all I can do to read the print and view the Bar graph. Which speaks to what I pointed out - not everyone has 20/15 vision (I used to, not anymore...), works on the same size screen, uses the same pointing device, or has the same motor skill/function. The aim is to find a size and presentation that will work for the largest number of users...which I think is finally coming along. -- - Rufus ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
On 2/8/2010 5:32 AM, Philip Chee wrote: On Sun, 07 Feb 2010 22:50:34 -0500, Justin Wood (Callek) wrote: On 2/6/2010 11:25 PM, Philip Chee wrote: On Sat, 06 Feb 2010 23:56:53 +0100, Robert Kaiser wrote: Good to hear! The quickstart stuff won't come back in 2.0.x though, unless someone comes up with a creative add-on that does it - and who knows what our community is able to do... https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/seamonkey/addon/2831 MinimizeToTray Plus 1.0.8 Minimize applications to the system tray. Works for Firefox 3, Thunderbird 3 and Sunbird 1 and higher. Highly configurable with a number of user changeable options. Download Now (Linux) Download Now (Windows) Version 1.0.8 Works with SeaMonkey: 2.0 – 2.1a1pre Updated January 29, 2010 Note that this _is_ different than the QuickStart feature; its more of a Start SeaMonkey Minimize the RUNNING window to the tray. Well do you have a better suggestion? The other fork MinTrayR hasn't been updated for ages. Sadly I do not have a better suggestion, just wanted to be clear on what your suggestion was. -- ~Justin Wood (Callek) ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
On 10-02-09 9:29 PM, Rufus wrote: My argument is that the collective opinions of any userbase in any discussion forum is the best dataset for user experience, and that to ignore it - in any venue - is folly in the long run. No matter what your hired gun may say. Then we're going in circles. I've already explained that user experience work includes design. It's not just telling developers what users think (let alone ignoring users). -- Chris Ilias http://ilias.ca List-owner: support-firefox, support-thunderbird, test-multimedia Keeper of the Knowledge Base: https://support.mozilla.com/kb/ ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
On Sun, 07 Feb 2010 22:50:34 -0500, Justin Wood (Callek) wrote: On 2/6/2010 11:25 PM, Philip Chee wrote: On Sat, 06 Feb 2010 23:56:53 +0100, Robert Kaiser wrote: Good to hear! The quickstart stuff won't come back in 2.0.x though, unless someone comes up with a creative add-on that does it - and who knows what our community is able to do... https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/seamonkey/addon/2831 MinimizeToTray Plus 1.0.8 Minimize applications to the system tray. Works for Firefox 3, Thunderbird 3 and Sunbird 1 and higher. Highly configurable with a number of user changeable options. Download Now (Linux) Download Now (Windows) Version 1.0.8 Works with SeaMonkey: 2.0 – 2.1a1pre Updated January 29, 2010 Note that this _is_ different than the QuickStart feature; its more of a Start SeaMonkey Minimize the RUNNING window to the tray. Well do you have a better suggestion? The other fork MinTrayR hasn't been updated for ages. Phil -- Philip Chee phi...@aleytys.pc.my, philip.c...@gmail.com http://flashblock.mozdev.org/ http://xsidebar.mozdev.org Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief, oh Night, and so be good for us to pass. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
Rufus wrote: Daniel wrote: Rufus wrote: Chris Ilias wrote: On 10-02-05 12:33 AM, Rufus wrote: Chris Ilias wrote: On 10-02-05 12:06 AM, Rufus wrote: Chris Ilias wrote: On 10-02-04 11:50 PM, Rufus wrote: snip I know there's a SM roadmap (it's been mentioned), but I can't tell how or on what basis the team develops it other than basing it on what it may be forced to accommodate collaboratively. Rufus, for a while, I've been suspicious that SeaMonkey's roadmap was, basically, to incorporate the changes made to FF and Tb into the suite format. A big enough effort from a small group of volunteers! Daniel I think they're up to a bit more than that...the SM browser has far more user inputs for configuration than FF. And I mentioned an Opera tabs feature for Mail/News that is supposedly in the SM roadmap. Which will be a welcome addition if it happens. As an independent effort I'd still expect some different ideas from them...maybe not a ton, but some. I hope so, at least. Very glad to hear this, and let me make it really, really clear that I am grateful for whatever is do by the esteemed few so that I can have use if a great (Sweet) Suite. Daniel ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
On or about 2/7/2010 10:50 PM, Justin Wood (Callek) typed the following: On 2/6/2010 11:25 PM, Philip Chee wrote: On Sat, 06 Feb 2010 23:56:53 +0100, Robert Kaiser wrote: Good to hear! The quickstart stuff won't come back in 2.0.x though, unless someone comes up with a creative add-on that does it - and who knows what our community is able to do... https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/seamonkey/addon/2831 MinimizeToTray Plus 1.0.8 Minimize applications to the system tray. Works for Firefox 3, Thunderbird 3 and Sunbird 1 and higher. Highly configurable with a number of user changeable options. Download Now (Linux) Download Now (Windows) Version 1.0.8 Works with SeaMonkey: 2.0 – 2.1a1pre Updated January 29, 2010 Note that this _is_ different than the QuickStart feature; its more of a Start SeaMonkey Minimize the RUNNING window to the tray. Right - although it performs as advertised it is NOT a substitute for the original QuickStart. I have removed it. -- Ed http://mysite.verizon.net/vze1zhwu No one plans to fail - rather some fail to plan. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
Andrea Govoni wrote: Philip Jones is talking about SeaMonkey performance when opening external links (like links from the mailnews SeaMonkey component) in the *same window* as opposed to opening them in *new windows*. Lee tested opening external links in *new windows* as opposed to opening them in *new tabs*. So, we have: Philip Jones -- *same window* Vs *new windows* Leonida Jones (Lee) -- *new windows* Vs *new tabs* Do you see the light now? Then again, Philip Jones has claimed that new windows are faster than new tabs, which is objectively wrong. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
On 10-02-07 4:10 PM, Rufus wrote: Chris Ilias wrote: You said your users are your best user experience people. Users communicate what is on their minds, not the workarounds they have gotten used to. What's on their mind is their experience. A forum like this is where people come primarily to solve problems they encounter...a lot of UI/UE information can be mined from such forums - IMO, the team should feel free to ask us users questions too, just as you did. * A forum like this requires knowing how to use newsgroups. * Too many parts of the user experience are simply accepted by users without thought. (How many questions do you see about inability to block Flash pop-ups?) If too many people are discussing work arounds (and I'd consider any suggestion to a user to fiddle with about:config as a workaround, for ex.), then maybe that's something that the team should pick up on and start thinking about a hard coded solution for. Decisions have to be made, but people on the team shouldn't slap users down when they speak up - or they'll stop speaking, and the team ends up having to depend on a UI/UE expert...which only drives things back to the single point issue I spoke to earlier. You've mentioned this before, I haven't linked me to an actual case. I fear that you are mistaking being slapped down for cases where there isn't manpower (ie. the form manager). -- Chris Ilias http://ilias.ca List-owner: support-firefox, support-thunderbird, test-multimedia Keeper of the Knowledge Base: https://support.mozilla.com/kb/ ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
Chris Ilias wrote: * A forum like this requires knowing how to use newsgroups. something you know nothing about ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
On 10-02-08 9:07 PM, Rufus wrote: Chris Ilias wrote: On 10-02-07 4:10 PM, Rufus wrote: Chris Ilias wrote: You said your users are your best user experience people. Users communicate what is on their minds, not the workarounds they have gotten used to. What's on their mind is their experience. A forum like this is where people come primarily to solve problems they encounter...a lot of UI/UE information can be mined from such forums - IMO, the team should feel free to ask us users questions too, just as you did. * A forum like this requires knowing how to use newsgroups. So what? It's still a source of information, just like the bug reports forum...a free source. Doesn't relieve the team of coming up with a way to use that information on their own. SO unless the knowledge to use a newsgroup is common knowledge, the users here are not the best user experience people. This newsgroup is not an accurate representation of the SeaMonkey userbase. If too many people are discussing work arounds (and I'd consider any suggestion to a user to fiddle with about:config as a workaround, for ex.), then maybe that's something that the team should pick up on and start thinking about a hard coded solution for. Decisions have to be made, but people on the team shouldn't slap users down when they speak up - or they'll stop speaking, and the team ends up having to depend on a UI/UE expert...which only drives things back to the single point issue I spoke to earlier. You've mentioned this before, I haven't linked me to an actual case. I fear that you are mistaking being slapped down for cases where there isn't manpower (ie. the form manager). Personally, I've never used the Forms Manager...but the only reason I haven't that I can determine now that I'm reading so much displeasure about it's removal is that I couldn't determine if information it stores is encrypted or not. If it was and a dialog box had told me that, I now think that would have, and would be, using it. I don't, so I don't miss it...but that's just me. (I posted a number of comments on what I felt were/are deficiencies concerning the removal of information from dialog boxes when I first looked over SM 2.0.) Then there was this: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=513691 Or read through the thread titled Found reason Dowload Manager doesn't come up right., posted this forum. I quit monitoring this issue because it's been beat to death and the individual that coded it refused to do anything about it other than state the old way looked like crap...at least that was the initial response to user feedback, even though several other members of the SM team submitted their own input for considering revision to a larger size, and also invited me to provide my own insights and opinions in support of them. So as a user, providing UI/UE input, from a user point of view, neither the teammates or I were even being considered by the guy that had the reins to actually do something. This looks to me like a combination of not understanding bugzilla and not trying to turn the issue into something different. * If the bug were slapped down (granted, we may have a different understanding of what that means), the bug would have been resolved as 'wontfix'. It was kept open; which means Robert was providing his input, not turning down the bug report. * The issue (although I didn't read the bug thoroughly) was that neither the old UI nor the new one are considered good. -- Chris Ilias http://ilias.ca List-owner: support-firefox, support-thunderbird, test-multimedia Keeper of the Knowledge Base: https://support.mozilla.com/kb/ ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
Chris Ilias wrote: On 10-02-08 9:07 PM, Rufus wrote: Chris Ilias wrote: On 10-02-07 4:10 PM, Rufus wrote: Chris Ilias wrote: You said your users are your best user experience people. Users communicate what is on their minds, not the workarounds they have gotten used to. What's on their mind is their experience. A forum like this is where people come primarily to solve problems they encounter...a lot of UI/UE information can be mined from such forums - IMO, the team should feel free to ask us users questions too, just as you did. * A forum like this requires knowing how to use newsgroups. So what? It's still a source of information, just like the bug reports forum...a free source. Doesn't relieve the team of coming up with a way to use that information on their own. SO unless the knowledge to use a newsgroup is common knowledge, the users here are not the best user experience people. This newsgroup is not an accurate representation of the SeaMonkey userbase. Then what's it here for? I think people who post here are posting accurate observations concerning their own experiences. That's just another way of saying not to listen to them. ...and as someone else pointed out, the way here is presented on the initial splash screen every time a use installs a new version of SM and launches it for the first time. So every SM user has a chance to know that this forum exists. If too many people are discussing work arounds (and I'd consider any suggestion to a user to fiddle with about:config as a workaround, for ex.), then maybe that's something that the team should pick up on and start thinking about a hard coded solution for. Decisions have to be made, but people on the team shouldn't slap users down when they speak up - or they'll stop speaking, and the team ends up having to depend on a UI/UE expert...which only drives things back to the single point issue I spoke to earlier. You've mentioned this before, I haven't linked me to an actual case. I fear that you are mistaking being slapped down for cases where there isn't manpower (ie. the form manager). Personally, I've never used the Forms Manager...but the only reason I haven't that I can determine now that I'm reading so much displeasure about it's removal is that I couldn't determine if information it stores is encrypted or not. If it was and a dialog box had told me that, I now think that would have, and would be, using it. I don't, so I don't miss it...but that's just me. (I posted a number of comments on what I felt were/are deficiencies concerning the removal of information from dialog boxes when I first looked over SM 2.0.) Then there was this: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=513691 Or read through the thread titled Found reason Dowload Manager doesn't come up right., posted this forum. I quit monitoring this issue because it's been beat to death and the individual that coded it refused to do anything about it other than state the old way looked like crap...at least that was the initial response to user feedback, even though several other members of the SM team submitted their own input for considering revision to a larger size, and also invited me to provide my own insights and opinions in support of them. So as a user, providing UI/UE input, from a user point of view, neither the teammates or I were even being considered by the guy that had the reins to actually do something. This looks to me like a combination of not understanding bugzilla and not trying to turn the issue into something different. It was a pretty specific/clear issue - it didn't need to be turned into anything different. * If the bug were slapped down (granted, we may have a different understanding of what that means), the bug would have been resolved as 'wontfix'. It was kept open; which means Robert was providing his input, not turning down the bug report. slapped down - initially ignored in the face of multiple requests and input from both users and some of those actually on the SM team; one individual being able to halt the team effort; inability to build team consensus on working the issue quickly/directly. But I'm very glad to see it got turned around and that it looks like something is actually going to be done about it. * The issue (although I didn't read the bug thoroughly) was that neither the old UI nor the new one are considered good. As a USER, I think the solution I saw is a vast improvement over what was introduced in 2.0, and a fair compromise as to what was in 1.1.18 and worked just fine...I look forward to seeing it in finality. -- - Rufus ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
On 10-02-09 12:57 AM, Rufus wrote: Chris Ilias wrote: SO unless the knowledge to use a newsgroup is common knowledge, the users here are not the best user experience people. This newsgroup is not an accurate representation of the SeaMonkey userbase. Then what's it here for? I think people who post here are posting accurate observations concerning their own experiences. That's just another way of saying not to listen to them. This newsgroup is here for users to get user support (for those who prefer newsgroups). There is also a web-forum on MozillaZine for those who prefer web-based forums. And there's an IRC channel on irc.mozilla.org. Many users prefer live telephone-based support, but the SeaMonkey project does not have the resources for that. There are some user metrics that can be gathered here, and they would be useful, but not an accurate representation of the entire userbase. -- Chris Ilias http://ilias.ca List-owner: support-firefox, support-thunderbird, test-multimedia Keeper of the Knowledge Base: https://support.mozilla.com/kb/ ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
On or about 2/6/2010 11:25 PM, Philip Chee typed the following: On Sat, 06 Feb 2010 23:56:53 +0100, Robert Kaiser wrote: Good to hear! The quickstart stuff won't come back in 2.0.x though, unless someone comes up with a creative add-on that does it - and who knows what our community is able to do... https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/seamonkey/addon/2831 MinimizeToTray Plus 1.0.8 Minimize applications to the system tray. Works for Firefox 3, Thunderbird 3 and Sunbird 1 and higher. Highly configurable with a number of user changeable options. Download Now (Linux) Download Now (Windows) Version 1.0.8 Works withSeaMonkey: 2.0 – 2.1a1pre Updated January 29, 2010 Phil Thanks Phil - I'll have a go with it. -- Ed http://mysite.verizon.net/vze1zhwu Do not tell big lies. Small ones can be just as effective. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
Il 04/02/10 04:49, Phillip Jones ha scritto: Actually the shorter post are more likely to cause the crash. Did you try to have a run with all your extensions disabled? SeaMonkey crashes/hangs very rarely on my machine (PowerBook g...@867mhz with Mac OS X 10.5.8) and when it does is almost always related to some troublesome extension/plug-in. For example, I had an old Enigmail nightly installed that from time to time would hang SeaMonkey when opening an e-mail/newsgroup message and I found another hanging bug [1] that seems Flash plug-in related. If you'll find that without extensions SeaMonkey doesn't hang, please re-enable them one at a time, giving SeaMonkey a ride each time you reactivate one of them to find the culprit. Best regards, [1] https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=537194 -- Andrea XFox Govoni AIM/iChat/ICQ: x...@mac.com Yahoo! ID: xfox82 Skype Name: draykan PGP KeyID: 0x212E69C1 Fingerprint: FBE1 CA7D 34BE 4A53 9639 5C36 B7A0 605F 212E 69C1 ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
Il 31/01/10 00:28, Phillip Jones ha scritto: I am unsure, iCab I don't know if it webkit or Gecko. iCab 4.x is WebKit based. iCab 3.x and below is based on a proprietary rendering engine. Best regards, -- Andrea XFox Govoni AIM/iChat/ICQ: x...@mac.com Yahoo! ID: xfox82 Skype Name: draykan PGP KeyID: 0x212E69C1 Fingerprint: FBE1 CA7D 34BE 4A53 9639 5C36 B7A0 605F 212E 69C1 ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
On 01/02/10 09:06, John Doue wrote: So forgive me for asking the obvious, but would not it be possible to have the install routine display a notice of our existence? Better yet, to have it included somehow in the Help menu? Actually, each time you install or update SeaMonkey and open the browser component, you are presented with a page like this: http://www.seamonkey-project.org/releases/seamonkey2.0.2/ At the bottom of the page and on the left side menu there is a SeaMonkey Documentation Help link that points to: http://www.seamonkey-project.org/doc/ Then, users just need to read the first paragraph of the page where it says: For users, the integrated Help in the SeaMonkey suite should be the first place where you search for anything you want to know, just press F1 from a running SeaMonkey or click the Help Contents item in the Help menu.* If you open the integrated Help, you'll notice that in the homepage there are plenty of links to get help and, among them, even a link to reach this newsgroup. What are you expecting more? *Incidentally, I've noticed that the quoted sentence above is either outdated or not correct for the Mac version of SeaMonkey. That's because actually the keyboard shortcut to open the integrated Help is Command + ? (pressing F1 only makes the system play the alert sound) and the integrated help menu item is SeaMonkey Help as opposed to Help Contents. Should I file a bug to address these glitches? -- Andrea XFox Govoni AIM/iChat/ICQ: x...@mac.com Yahoo! ID: xfox82 Skype Name: draykan PGP KeyID: 0x212E69C1 Fingerprint: FBE1 CA7D 34BE 4A53 9639 5C36 B7A0 605F 212E 69C1 ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
Andrea Govoni wrote: On 01/02/10 09:06, John Doue wrote: So forgive me for asking the obvious, but would not it be possible to have the install routine display a notice of our existence? Better yet, to have it included somehow in the Help menu? Actually, each time you install or update SeaMonkey and open the browser component, you are presented with a page like this: http://www.seamonkey-project.org/releases/seamonkey2.0.2/ At the bottom of the page and on the left side menu there is a SeaMonkey Documentation Help link that points to: http://www.seamonkey-project.org/doc/ Then, users just need to read the first paragraph of the page where it says: For users, the integrated Help in the SeaMonkey suite should be the first place where you search for anything you want to know, just press F1 from a running SeaMonkey or click the Help Contents item in the Help menu.* If you open the integrated Help, you'll notice that in the homepage there are plenty of links to get help and, among them, even a link to reach this newsgroup. What are you expecting more? *Incidentally, I've noticed that the quoted sentence above is either outdated or not correct for the Mac version of SeaMonkey. That's because actually the keyboard shortcut to open the integrated Help is Command + ? (pressing F1 only makes the system play the alert sound) and the integrated help menu item is SeaMonkey Help as opposed to Help Contents. Should I file a bug to address these glitches? If it doesn't exist yet, please do! ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
Andrea Govoni wrote: Il 31/01/10 00:28, Phillip Jones ha scritto: I am unsure, iCab I don't know if it webkit or Gecko. iCab 4.x is WebKit based. iCab 3.x and below is based on a proprietary rendering engine. Best regards, version I have is 4.7 -- Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T.If it's Fixed, Don't Break it http://www.phillipmjones.net http://www.vpea.org mailto:pjon...@kimbanet.com ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
On 10-02-05 12:33 AM, Rufus wrote: Chris Ilias wrote: On 10-02-05 12:06 AM, Rufus wrote: Chris Ilias wrote: On 10-02-04 11:50 PM, Rufus wrote: ...funny you should say. I said something very similar about workarounds requiring the user to fiddle around with about:config and pretty much got crapped all over by some members of the SM team. Yes - I agree with you. A user should not have to do what I describe if there is a true desire on behalf of the product to provide an ability for the user to be able to perform that function regularly - the capability should be provided within the SM interface. But you asked me IF and HOW I did it, not how I thought it should be done. Yes, I had to ask you. It's not something you've ever suggested without being asked. Agreed. So I just gave a straight forward answer to a straight forward question... Do you understand the point I was making? No, actually. I did read the link asking about user work habits...which made me wonder if you were looking for answers in that vein. You said your users are your best user experience people. Users communicate what is on their minds, not the workarounds they have gotten used to. -- Chris Ilias http://ilias.ca List-owner: support-firefox, support-thunderbird, test-multimedia Keeper of the Knowledge Base: https://support.mozilla.com/kb/ ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
On 02/02/10 12:44, Daniel wrote: Phillip Jones wrote: Leonidas Jones wrote: I cleared the cache, and opened my my.myway start page. I opened 20 links in tabs, 10 were my.myway pages, and ten were external links. I then cleared the cache, and repeated with opening new windows. Please reread. 10 times as opposed the way it was (opening multiple windows and not reusing the same window). I've tried tabs (I just don't use them) and for my setup and machine they are slow. Phillip, did you miss Lee's para...I then cleared the cache, and repeated with opening new windows. harsh mode on C'mon guys, please take a moment to thoroughly read the messages before replying something that makes it clear the you didn't pay enough attention to what had been actually written. harsh mode off Philip Jones is talking about SeaMonkey performance when opening external links (like links from the mailnews SeaMonkey component) in the *same window* as opposed to opening them in *new windows*. Lee tested opening external links in *new windows* as opposed to opening them in *new tabs*. So, we have: Philip Jones -- *same window* Vs *new windows* Leonida Jones (Lee) -- *new windows* Vs *new tabs* Do you see the light now? -- Andrea XFox Govoni AIM/iChat/ICQ: x...@mac.com Yahoo! ID: xfox82 Skype Name: draykan PGP KeyID: 0x212E69C1 Fingerprint: FBE1 CA7D 34BE 4A53 9639 5C36 B7A0 605F 212E 69C1 ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
Chris Ilias wrote: On 10-02-05 12:33 AM, Rufus wrote: Chris Ilias wrote: On 10-02-05 12:06 AM, Rufus wrote: Chris Ilias wrote: On 10-02-04 11:50 PM, Rufus wrote: ...funny you should say. I said something very similar about workarounds requiring the user to fiddle around with about:config and pretty much got crapped all over by some members of the SM team. Yes - I agree with you. A user should not have to do what I describe if there is a true desire on behalf of the product to provide an ability for the user to be able to perform that function regularly - the capability should be provided within the SM interface. But you asked me IF and HOW I did it, not how I thought it should be done. Yes, I had to ask you. It's not something you've ever suggested without being asked. Agreed. So I just gave a straight forward answer to a straight forward question... Do you understand the point I was making? No, actually. I did read the link asking about user work habits...which made me wonder if you were looking for answers in that vein. You said your users are your best user experience people. Users communicate what is on their minds, not the workarounds they have gotten used to. What's on their mind is their experience. A forum like this is where people come primarily to solve problems they encounter...a lot of UI/UE information can be mined from such forums - IMO, the team should feel free to ask us users questions too, just as you did. If too many people are discussing work arounds (and I'd consider any suggestion to a user to fiddle with about:config as a workaround, for ex.), then maybe that's something that the team should pick up on and start thinking about a hard coded solution for. Decisions have to be made, but people on the team shouldn't slap users down when they speak up - or they'll stop speaking, and the team ends up having to depend on a UI/UE expert...which only drives things back to the single point issue I spoke to earlier. If there's actually a process for ranking and implementing user feedback, I'm not privy to it. I read discussion threads in bug reports, but there's no ranking process I can discern - it seems like someone can dig their heels in and say I worked on it, I'm not changing it even when others on the team agree that it should be changed - that's not much of a team, IMO...volunteer or not. The small buttons issue is my best example of that, mostly because it's the only one I've been particularly involved or asked/invited to be involved with. I know there's a SM roadmap (it's been mentioned), but I can't tell how or on what basis the team develops it other than basing it on what it may be forced to accommodate collaboratively. -- - Rufus ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
On 2/6/2010 11:25 PM, Philip Chee wrote: On Sat, 06 Feb 2010 23:56:53 +0100, Robert Kaiser wrote: Good to hear! The quickstart stuff won't come back in 2.0.x though, unless someone comes up with a creative add-on that does it - and who knows what our community is able to do... https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/seamonkey/addon/2831 MinimizeToTray Plus 1.0.8 Minimize applications to the system tray. Works for Firefox 3, Thunderbird 3 and Sunbird 1 and higher. Highly configurable with a number of user changeable options. Download Now (Linux) Download Now (Windows) Version 1.0.8 Works with SeaMonkey: 2.0 – 2.1a1pre Updated January 29, 2010 Note that this _is_ different than the QuickStart feature; its more of a Start SeaMonkey Minimize the RUNNING window to the tray. -- ~Justin Wood (Callek) ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
Andrea Govoni wrote: On 01/02/10 09:06, John Doue wrote: So forgive me for asking the obvious, but would not it be possible to have the install routine display a notice of our existence? Better yet, to have it included somehow in the Help menu? Actually, each time you install or update SeaMonkey and open the browser component, you are presented with a page like this: http://www.seamonkey-project.org/releases/seamonkey2.0.2/ At the bottom of the page and on the left side menu there is a SeaMonkey Documentation Help link that points to: http://www.seamonkey-project.org/doc/ Then, users just need to read the first paragraph of the page where it says: For users, the integrated Help in the SeaMonkey suite should be the first place where you search for anything you want to know, just press F1 from a running SeaMonkey or click the Help Contents item in the Help menu.* If you open the integrated Help, you'll notice that in the homepage there are plenty of links to get help and, among them, even a link to reach this newsgroup. to reach this newsgroup *via Google-Groups!! Why not direct them directly here to the news server?? Daniel What are you expecting more? Yes. *Incidentally, I've noticed that the quoted sentence above is either outdated or not correct for the Mac version of SeaMonkey. That's because actually the keyboard shortcut to open the integrated Help is Command + ? (pressing F1 only makes the system play the alert sound) and the integrated help menu item is SeaMonkey Help as opposed to Help Contents. Should I file a bug to address these glitches? ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
Rufus wrote: Chris Ilias wrote: On 10-02-05 12:33 AM, Rufus wrote: Chris Ilias wrote: On 10-02-05 12:06 AM, Rufus wrote: Chris Ilias wrote: On 10-02-04 11:50 PM, Rufus wrote: snip I know there's a SM roadmap (it's been mentioned), but I can't tell how or on what basis the team develops it other than basing it on what it may be forced to accommodate collaboratively. Rufus, for a while, I've been suspicious that SeaMonkey's roadmap was, basically, to incorporate the changes made to FF and Tb into the suite format. A big enough effort from a small group of volunteers! Daniel ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
Daniel wrote: Rufus wrote: Chris Ilias wrote: On 10-02-05 12:33 AM, Rufus wrote: Chris Ilias wrote: On 10-02-05 12:06 AM, Rufus wrote: Chris Ilias wrote: On 10-02-04 11:50 PM, Rufus wrote: snip I know there's a SM roadmap (it's been mentioned), but I can't tell how or on what basis the team develops it other than basing it on what it may be forced to accommodate collaboratively. Rufus, for a while, I've been suspicious that SeaMonkey's roadmap was, basically, to incorporate the changes made to FF and Tb into the suite format. A big enough effort from a small group of volunteers! Daniel I think they're up to a bit more than that...the SM browser has far more user inputs for configuration than FF. And I mentioned an Opera tabs feature for Mail/News that is supposedly in the SM roadmap. Which will be a welcome addition if it happens. As an independent effort I'd still expect some different ideas from them...maybe not a ton, but some. I hope so, at least. -- - Rufus ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
On or about 2/3/2010 6:28 AM, BeeNeR typed the following: S N I P Anyhow, I'm more than happy with an integrated net program such as SeaMonkey. I wasn't too happy with 2.0.0, but when I was able to get the password problem solved (don't use one) and the auto-mail addressing situation resolved I've been quite happy with SM. Only two minor issues left to take care of (at least for my operation) are the inability to delete addresses from mailing lists in the manner that existed in 1.x and I really do miss the 'QUICKSTART' button. Please bring it back. 2.0.3 has fixed the delete address problem - now *if* only the 'QUICKSTART' button would be re-instated. (: -- Ed http://mysite.verizon.net/vze1zhwu Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. –H.L. Mencken (1880-1956) ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
BeeNeR wrote: 2.0.3 has fixed the delete address problem - now *if* only the 'QUICKSTART' button would be re-instated. (: Good to hear! The quickstart stuff won't come back in 2.0.x though, unless someone comes up with a creative add-on that does it - and who knows what our community is able to do... For 2.1, we'll see - there's a platform feature in development that allows the preloading of a lot of things, but doesn't create the tray icon, so that's only one part of this. Again, if someone comes up with a creative add-on solution, we'd be quite happy! Robert Kaiser ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
Interviewed by CNN on 4/2/2010 23:45, Rufus told the world: In that between Mozilla, Fire Fox, Goggle Chrome, Camino, Safari, et. al. there are SO many things that look the same and/or function the same. Which leads to the thought that many of these people are obviously cooperating and collaborating. My previous assumption was that only the Google and Apple teams were paid professionals and that the SM team are all volunteer professionals or amateurs...but if all pf these people are all working together and following each other around...what's the big diff between one set and the other then? One reason you might see similarities between browsers is that they are products designed to do essentially the same thing and, frankly, people steal ideas back and forth all the time. Another reason is that, with IE's stranglehold on the browser market until a few years ago, none of the other players had the critical mass to introduce new standards. So they learned to collaborate heavily in standards. Even now, Microsoft is *still* bigger than all of them combined. So they keep collaborating. The big split for a webdesigner nowadays is IE/Non-IE, because all the other browsers pay a lot of attention to standards compliance -- and therefore render similarly in most cases. That is, unless you are doing something very fancy and cutting-edge, a page that renders well in Firefox should render fairly well in Chrome, Safari and Opera too -- but might break horribly in IE. And a third reason is that when Apple decided to create their own browsers, they hired people who previously worked on Mozilla -- being a volunteer project, there was a lot of expertise around not tied by contracts. Similarly, Google hired a number of Mozilla developers to work in Chrome. Some ex-Mozilla developers also found their way into Opera and even Microsoft. -- MCBastos This message has been protected with the 2ROT13 algorithm. Unauthorized use will be prosecuted under the DMCA. -=-=- ... BOFH excuse #19: floating point processor overflow *Added by TagZilla 0.066.2 running on Seamonkey 2.0.2 * http://xsidebar.mozdev.org/modifiedmailnews.html#tagzilla ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
Interviewed by CNN on 5/2/2010 02:59, Rufus told the world: Where I get confused is that I read a lot of posts here that fall back on - but we're just all volunteers, the other guys are paid...which comes off sounding like I should expect less. What I really think is that everyone involved is equally competent - paid or not. And when things all start looking the same or similar between products, it starts looking like you are all working together in any event. So...just what should I expect? Seamonkey reuses a lot of stuff (like the entire innards, and parts of the user interface) which was originally written for Firefox and Thunderbird. So, yes, you are going go see similarities in functionality. Also, there's a matter of general style -- Seamonkey considers itself as part of the Mozilla family, so SM borrows some styling cues from FFTB. As has been mentioned, the Mozilla Corporation (responsible for Firefox) and Mozilla Messaging (responsible for Thunderbird) have actual budgets, with money coming part from grants (they are both owned by the Mozilla Foundation, which is a registered charity) and part from business deals like the Google advertising thing. So they can hire people to supplement the volunteer developers. This is important for two reasons: 1- Paid developers can give eight-hour days, five days a week. Volunteers can give one or two hours a day, and perhaps not even every day. So the hours add up. 2- Some kinds of expertise are hard to come by in a volunteer basis, because the job can't be easily split among a lot of people. User interface design is a good example. You want a consistent UI, not a patchwork, so you need somebody to head the whole project -- that means a lot of hours, way above what can be reasonably expected from a volunteer. So Firefox has full-time paid UI guys, and Seamonkey doesn't. That's why Mac users are impressed with Thunderbird 3 -- a lot of work went into making TB3/Mac mesh well with OSX. SM doesn't have this kind of resources, so SM/Mac does not mesh as well -- the SM/Mac look is less customized, more similar to the SM/Win and SM/Linux looks. -- MCBastos This message has been protected with the 2ROT13 algorithm. Unauthorized use will be prosecuted under the DMCA. -=-=- ... BOFH excuse #134: because of network lag due to too many people playing deathmatch *Added by TagZilla 0.066.2 running on Seamonkey 2.0.2 * http://xsidebar.mozdev.org/modifiedmailnews.html#tagzilla ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
MCBastos wrote: Interviewed by CNN on 4/2/2010 23:45, Rufus told the world: In that between Mozilla, Fire Fox, Goggle Chrome, Camino, Safari, et. al. there are SO many things that look the same and/or function the same. Which leads to the thought that many of these people are obviously cooperating and collaborating. My previous assumption was that only the Google and Apple teams were paid professionals and that the SM team are all volunteer professionals or amateurs...but if all pf these people are all working together and following each other around...what's the big diff between one set and the other then? One reason you might see similarities between browsers is that they are products designed to do essentially the same thing and, frankly, people steal ideas back and forth all the time. Another reason is that, with IE's stranglehold on the browser market until a few years ago, none of the other players had the critical mass to introduce new standards. So they learned to collaborate heavily in standards. Even now, Microsoft is *still* bigger than all of them combined. So they keep collaborating. The big split for a webdesigner nowadays is IE/Non-IE, because all the other browsers pay a lot of attention to standards compliance -- and therefore render similarly in most cases. That is, unless you are doing something very fancy and cutting-edge, a page that renders well in Firefox should render fairly well in Chrome, Safari and Opera too -- but might break horribly in IE. Funny that in these days of non-disclosure, intellectual property, and copyright, that such could go on...but what else could they do, I suppose? Particularly if they all want to establish and agree on some standards. And a third reason is that when Apple decided to create their own browsers, they hired people who previously worked on Mozilla -- being a volunteer project, there was a lot of expertise around not tied by contracts. Similarly, Google hired a number of Mozilla developers to work in Chrome. Some ex-Mozilla developers also found their way into Opera and even Microsoft. Thanks. That's all great summary. Very informative. -- - Rufus ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
MCBastos wrote: Interviewed by CNN on 5/2/2010 02:59, Rufus told the world: Where I get confused is that I read a lot of posts here that fall back on - but we're just all volunteers, the other guys are paid...which comes off sounding like I should expect less. What I really think is that everyone involved is equally competent - paid or not. And when things all start looking the same or similar between products, it starts looking like you are all working together in any event. So...just what should I expect? Seamonkey reuses a lot of stuff (like the entire innards, and parts of the user interface) which was originally written for Firefox and Thunderbird. So, yes, you are going go see similarities in functionality. Also, there's a matter of general style -- Seamonkey considers itself as part of the Mozilla family, so SM borrows some styling cues from FFTB. That's pretty much what I as thinking, and why I keep saying things like code sharing and/or collaboration. That only makes common sense. At least at it's roots - even if the SM team did or does branch off of that basic code. As has been mentioned, the Mozilla Corporation (responsible for Firefox) and Mozilla Messaging (responsible for Thunderbird) have actual budgets, with money coming part from grants (they are both owned by the Mozilla Foundation, which is a registered charity) and part from business deals like the Google advertising thing. So they can hire people to supplement the volunteer developers. This is important for two reasons: 1- Paid developers can give eight-hour days, five days a week. Volunteers can give one or two hours a day, and perhaps not even every day. So the hours add up. Ok - now that makes things very clear...I took a guess that my postulated Moz-corp was a non-profit of some sort. Bottom line though, is that they have an organizational hierarchy, focus, and strategy...they operate as a business. Something that seems missing in SM team approach/organization/practice...at least it appears that way, reading some of the bug threads. Just because people aren't being paid shouldn't stop them from employing best professional practices, IMO. 2- Some kinds of expertise are hard to come by in a volunteer basis, because the job can't be easily split among a lot of people. User interface design is a good example. You want a consistent UI, not a patchwork, so you need somebody to head the whole project -- that means a lot of hours, way above what can be reasonably expected from a volunteer. So Firefox has full-time paid UI guys, and Seamonkey doesn't. That's why Mac users are impressed with Thunderbird 3 -- a lot of work went into making TB3/Mac mesh well with OSX. SM doesn't have this kind of resources, so SM/Mac does not mesh as well -- the SM/Mac look is less customized, more similar to the SM/Win and SM/Linux looks. What does seem a bit odd to me is that the PC interfaces are also looking more Mac-like, IMO...something I wouldn't have expected. I can understand wanting to economize effort, and I could see that happening with the OS X/Linux versions, but I wouldn't have thought the Mac users would win out in a UI/UE trade...not that I'll complain about that. Thanks again. -- - Rufus ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
On Sat, 06 Feb 2010 23:56:53 +0100, Robert Kaiser wrote: Good to hear! The quickstart stuff won't come back in 2.0.x though, unless someone comes up with a creative add-on that does it - and who knows what our community is able to do... https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/seamonkey/addon/2831 MinimizeToTray Plus 1.0.8 Minimize applications to the system tray. Works for Firefox 3, Thunderbird 3 and Sunbird 1 and higher. Highly configurable with a number of user changeable options. Download Now (Linux) Download Now (Windows) Version 1.0.8 Works with SeaMonkey: 2.0 – 2.1a1pre Updated January 29, 2010 Phil -- Philip Chee phi...@aleytys.pc.my, philip.c...@gmail.com http://flashblock.mozdev.org/ http://xsidebar.mozdev.org Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief, oh Night, and so be good for us to pass. [ ]You gotta know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em. * TagZilla 0.066.6 ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
On Sun, 07 Feb 2010 01:08:43 -0200, MCBastos wrote: And a third reason is that when Apple decided to create their own browsers, they hired people who previously worked on Mozilla -- being a volunteer project, there was a lot of expertise around not tied by contracts. Similarly, Google hired a number of Mozilla developers to work in Chrome. Some ex-Mozilla developers also found their way into Opera and even Microsoft. And there are some ex-microsofties working for Mozilla too. Al's first blog post as a Mozilla employee was spent dissing his former employer :D Phil -- Philip Chee phi...@aleytys.pc.my, philip.c...@gmail.com http://flashblock.mozdev.org/ http://xsidebar.mozdev.org Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief, oh Night, and so be good for us to pass. [ ]My reality check just bounced. * TagZilla 0.066.6 ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
Robert Kaiser wrote: Bill Davidsen schrieb: I still find it useful, but the two things I find most missing are never going to be there because they are not in the base codes of FF and TB. Unless someone comes up and writes code that implements them based on the SM2 base - and everyone is welcome to that. I am sad that SM went with the FF browser intead of following the webkit route Webkit was never in any discussion, I wonder why you think it was. Mozilla is not in any way related to Webkit and SeaMonkey is and always was a complete Mozilla project. So I have no idea what you are up to here right now other than to play a troll... Seamonkey had the chance at 2.x to go in another direction, and chose to continue using the old software in a slightly updated form, while a number of other browsers went with webkit. And it may never have been in play, however you choose to define that, but I believe that I mentioned my hope that it would be in the new Seamonkey, so you were not unaware that webkit existed and was getting contributions from other browsers. I want watched threads in mail, too, but we never had that. Feel free to write a patch. And do what with it? There seems to be no established place where patches are posted for testing and comment, I have the impression that unlink LKML there isn't a mailing list for public patch testing, just the once a day release of code submitted by developers. -- Bill Davidsen david...@tmr.com We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from the machinations of the wicked. - from Slashdot ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
Bill Davidsen wrote: Seamonkey had the chance at 2.x to go in another direction, and chose to continue using the old software in a slightly updated form, while a number of other browsers went with webkit. And it may never have been in play, however you choose to define that, but I believe that I mentioned my hope that it would be in the new Seamonkey, so you were not unaware that webkit existed and was getting contributions from other browsers. But, to say it again: Webkit is not related to Mozilla in any way, and SeaMonkey is a 100% Mozilla project. Also, the whole XML-based UI and add-ons system just doesn't work based on webkit, but does based on Gecko, which is much more sophisitcated. I want watched threads in mail, too, but we never had that. Feel free to write a patch. And do what with it? There seems to be no established place where patches are posted for testing and comment, I have the impression that unlink LKML there isn't a mailing list for public patch testing, just the once a day release of code submitted by developers. The place for patches and reviews is bugzilla.mozilla.org for SeaMonkey just like for the whole Mozilla community. Robert Kaiser ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
Philip Chee wrote: On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 17:31:15 -0800, Rufus wrote: Maybe that team has more Mac users on it or something, but from my Mac user standpoint they got a lot of stuff right. Kudos to them. Their team has at least two Mac users, one full time graphics designer, and one full time professional User Experience person. I'm sure that if SeaMonkey can afford to hire such people we could match Thunderbird in Mac user experience pretty quickly. Phil What the heck is a User Experience person? I mean, what do they do all day? BJ ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 21:42:17 -0800, Rufus wrote: ... but that's something you're going to have to explain to me - all this hired vs volunteer stuff. Who's who, and how are they doing what? http://www.mozillamessaging.com/en-US/about/staff/ http://www.mozillamessaging.com/en-US/about/board/ http://www.mozillamessaging.com/en-US/about/ Momo All-Hands 2009 (Meeting of Mozilla Messaging employees in Vancouver, BC, Canada in August 2009) http://www.flickr.com/photos/lhirlimann/sets/72157622051379888/ Seeing as all these apps are free, I've been assuming that everyone is a volunteer. So, just who is paying the hired guns, how do they make enough money on a free product to get paid, and just why and what keeps it all free? Dude, never heard of google? State of Mozilla and 2008 Financial Statements http://blog.lizardwrangler.com/2009/11/19/state-of-mozilla-and-2008/ Checking in on Mozilla's Financial Health http://ostatic.org/blog/checking-in-on-mozillas-financial-health Much of the money Mozilla makes in profit comes from a Google search deal. http://www.itpro.co.uk/617977/mozilla-reliant-on-google-for-cash Mozilla: Still too dependent on Google for revenue; Can it diversify? http://blogs.zdnet.com/BTL/?p=27670 Phil -- Philip Chee phi...@aleytys.pc.my, philip.c...@gmail.com http://flashblock.mozdev.org/ http://xsidebar.mozdev.org Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief, oh Night, and so be good for us to pass. [ ]There's always 1 more SOB than you counted on * TagZilla 0.066.6 ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
On 03.02.2010 23:42, Rufus wrote: --- Original Message --- Philip Chee wrote: On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 17:31:15 -0800, Rufus wrote: Maybe that team has more Mac users on it or something, but from my Mac user standpoint they got a lot of stuff right. Kudos to them. Their team has at least two Mac users, one full time graphics designer, and one full time professional User Experience person. I'm sure that if SeaMonkey can afford to hire such people we could match Thunderbird in Mac user experience pretty quickly. Phil Well, to start with, your users are your best user experience people, some seem to get that and some don't... ... but that's something you're going to have to explain to me - all this hired vs volunteer stuff. Who's who, and how are they doing what? Seeing as all these apps are free, I've been assuming that everyone is a volunteer. So, just who is paying the hired guns, how do they make enough money on a free product to get paid, and just why and what keeps it all free? The open source community keeps it free and Mozilla Corporation pays it's staff via contributions, contracts and advertising. http://blog.lizardwrangler.com/2009/11/19/state-of-mozilla-and-2008/ -- Jay Garcia - Netscape/Flock Champion www.ufaq.org Netscape - Flock - Firefox - Thunderbird - Seamonkey Support ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
On 10-02-04 12:42 AM, Rufus wrote: Well, to start with, your users are your best user experience people, some seem to get that and some don't... Okay, riddle me this: Do you back up your SeaMonkey data on a regular basis? If so, how? -- Chris Ilias http://ilias.ca List-owner: support-firefox, support-thunderbird, test-multimedia Keeper of the Knowledge Base: https://support.mozilla.com/kb/ ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
On 10-02-04 6:30 AM, BJ wrote: What the heck is a User Experience person? I mean, what do they do all day? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_experience_design For instance, where should Reply and Forward buttons be? Where should the 'new tab' button be? When a download is finished, should we expect the user to open the file? If so, there should be a way do that when the download is finished. Notice how new updates are only downloaded when you computer has been idle for a certain amount of time? That a user experience thing. I don't know if this has been implemented or not: If you open many tabs at once, the tab that is displaying should load first. The Firefox user experience team has a lot of their work documented at https://wiki.mozilla.org/Firefox/Projects/UX_Priorities_3.7. For Thunderbird, there's https://wiki.mozilla.org/Thunderbird:UX. -- Chris Ilias http://ilias.ca List-owner: support-firefox, support-thunderbird, test-multimedia Keeper of the Knowledge Base: https://support.mozilla.com/kb/ ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
Chris Ilias wrote: On 10-02-04 12:42 AM, Rufus wrote: Well, to start with, your users are your best user experience people, some seem to get that and some don't... Okay, riddle me this: Do you back up your SeaMonkey data on a regular basis? If so, how? Only my Bookmarks file - there was a time when SM was losing Bookmarks. I just duplicate the file and store it outside of my Profile. On a Mac it's very easy to back up an entire Profile - I just drag and drop it's entire contents onto another disk. If I need to reinstate that profile, I delete the previous folder and let SM build a new default - then I drop in the contents of my backup. Dunno what you would do on a PC... -- - Rufus ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
Rufus a écrit : On a Mac it's very easy to back up an entire Profile - I just drag and drop it's entire contents onto another disk. If I need to reinstate that profile, I delete the previous folder and let SM build a new default - then I drop in the contents of my backup. Dunno what you would do on a PC... I'm on Windows and do exactly the same thing, except I don't even bother creating a new default: I just drop the profile where it should be and that's it. It even worked when I switched from Win2K to Win7. S. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
In news:ykudntlrs7kqrpbwnz2dnuvz_oedn...@mozilla.org, Rufus n...@home.com wrote: Philip Chee wrote: On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 21:42:17 -0800, Rufus wrote: ... but that's something you're going to have to explain to me - all this hired vs volunteer stuff. Who's who, and how are they doing what? http://www.mozillamessaging.com/en-US/about/staff/ http://www.mozillamessaging.com/en-US/about/board/ http://www.mozillamessaging.com/en-US/about/ Momo All-Hands 2009 (Meeting of Mozilla Messaging employees in Vancouver, BC, Canada in August 2009) http://www.flickr.com/photos/lhirlimann/sets/72157622051379888/ ...how do they make money?..just what is it that they sell? Advertising?..donations?.. Phil gave you links to read. Seeing as all these apps are free, I've been assuming that everyone is a volunteer. So, just who is paying the hired guns, how do they make enough money on a free product to get paid, and just why and what keeps it all free? Dude, never heard of google? State of Mozilla and 2008 Financial Statements http://blog.lizardwrangler.com/2009/11/19/state-of-mozilla-and-2008/ Checking in on Mozilla's Financial Health http://ostatic.org/blog/checking-in-on-mozillas-financial-health Much of the money Mozilla makes in profit comes from a Google search deal. http://www.itpro.co.uk/617977/mozilla-reliant-on-google-for-cash Mozilla: Still too dependent on Google for revenue; Can it diversify? http://blogs.zdnet.com/BTL/?p=27670 I thought Mozilla was a open source project...did that stop? No. ..which was why I though everybody doing this stuff (other than Apple with Safari) were volunteers... Safari isn't open source, but large parts of it are. People get paid to work on lots of F/LOSS projects. ...ok, so now we're lead back to code sharing and conspiracy theories...which is it? How do we keep getting back here? I can't tell what conspiracy theories you're talking about. Mozilla belongs to Google? Or gets paid by them just because you can navigate to Google with them? I still don't get it. Philip gave you links to read. I remember that the only add-on I've put into SM was to make Google my default search engine...so somebody got paid and it's built in now? AFAIK, SeaMonkey doesn't generate any revenue. Remember that what kicked off this part of the thread was Phil noting that SeaMonkey team cannot afford to hire people. -- »Q« /\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign \ / against html e-mailX http://asciiribbon.org/ / \ ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
Rufus wrote: Chris Ilias wrote: On 10-02-04 12:42 AM, Rufus wrote: Well, to start with, your users are your best user experience people, some seem to get that and some don't... Okay, riddle me this: Do you back up your SeaMonkey data on a regular basis? If so, how? Only my Bookmarks file - there was a time when SM was losing Bookmarks. I just duplicate the file and store it outside of my Profile. On a Mac it's very easy to back up an entire Profile - I just drag and drop it's entire contents onto another disk. If I need to reinstate that profile, I delete the previous folder and let SM build a new default - then I drop in the contents of my backup. Dunno what you would do on a PC... Check the UA, Chris is on Mac, has been for quite a while now. Lee ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
Rufus wrote: Philip Chee wrote: On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 21:42:17 -0800, Rufus wrote: ... but that's something you're going to have to explain to me - all this hired vs volunteer stuff. Who's who, and how are they doing what? http://www.mozillamessaging.com/en-US/about/staff/ http://www.mozillamessaging.com/en-US/about/board/ http://www.mozillamessaging.com/en-US/about/ Momo All-Hands 2009 (Meeting of Mozilla Messaging employees in Vancouver, BC, Canada in August 2009) http://www.flickr.com/photos/lhirlimann/sets/72157622051379888/ ...how do they make money?..just what is it that they sell? Advertising?..donations?.. Seeing as all these apps are free, I've been assuming that everyone is a volunteer. So, just who is paying the hired guns, how do they make enough money on a free product to get paid, and just why and what keeps it all free? Dude, never heard of google? State of Mozilla and 2008 Financial Statements http://blog.lizardwrangler.com/2009/11/19/state-of-mozilla-and-2008/ Checking in on Mozilla's Financial Health http://ostatic.org/blog/checking-in-on-mozillas-financial-health Much of the money Mozilla makes in profit comes from a Google search deal. http://www.itpro.co.uk/617977/mozilla-reliant-on-google-for-cash Mozilla: Still too dependent on Google for revenue; Can it diversify? http://blogs.zdnet.com/BTL/?p=27670 Phil I thought Mozilla was a open source project...did that stop?..which was why I though everybody doing this stuff (other than Apple with Safari) were volunteers... ...ok, so now we're lead back to code sharing and conspiracy theories...which is it? Mozilla belongs to Google? Or gets paid by them just because you can navigate to Google with them? I still don't get it. I remember that the only add-on I've put into SM was to make Google my default search engine...so somebody got paid and it's built in now? Google pays Mozilla so much a hit when using Mozilla Browsers. After the comments that Google Prez said which amounted Google could care less about Privacy and Security. And Asa comments recommending Mozilla Users use Bing instead as a result of the comments. That might end in the future. It was reported in cNet and ZDnet just couple of weeks ago or so. Basically The Google Big wig said privacy and security of the information they handle is not their responsibility. -- Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T.If it's Fixed, Don't Break it http://www.phillipmjones.net http://www.vpea.org mailto:pjon...@kimbanet.com ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
S. Beaulieu wrote: Rufus a écrit : On a Mac it's very easy to back up an entire Profile - I just drag and drop it's entire contents onto another disk. If I need to reinstate that profile, I delete the previous folder and let SM build a new default - then I drop in the contents of my backup. Dunno what you would do on a PC... I'm on Windows and do exactly the same thing, except I don't even bother creating a new default: I just drop the profile where it should be and that's it. It even worked when I switched from Win2K to Win7. S. I don't really know if I have to do that or not...but it does create a new default folder name for the Profile, and I feel more comfortable with that. -- - Rufus ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
»Q« wrote: In news:ykudntlrs7kqrpbwnz2dnuvz_oedn...@mozilla.org, Rufus n...@home.com wrote: Philip Chee wrote: On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 21:42:17 -0800, Rufus wrote: ... but that's something you're going to have to explain to me - all this hired vs volunteer stuff. Who's who, and how are they doing what? http://www.mozillamessaging.com/en-US/about/staff/ http://www.mozillamessaging.com/en-US/about/board/ http://www.mozillamessaging.com/en-US/about/ Momo All-Hands 2009 (Meeting of Mozilla Messaging employees in Vancouver, BC, Canada in August 2009) http://www.flickr.com/photos/lhirlimann/sets/72157622051379888/ ...how do they make money?..just what is it that they sell? Advertising?..donations?.. Phil gave you links to read. ...yeah...I'm a bit more confused now that I've read them. Seeing as all these apps are free, I've been assuming that everyone is a volunteer. So, just who is paying the hired guns, how do they make enough money on a free product to get paid, and just why and what keeps it all free? Dude, never heard of google? State of Mozilla and 2008 Financial Statements http://blog.lizardwrangler.com/2009/11/19/state-of-mozilla-and-2008/ Checking in on Mozilla's Financial Health http://ostatic.org/blog/checking-in-on-mozillas-financial-health Much of the money Mozilla makes in profit comes from a Google search deal. http://www.itpro.co.uk/617977/mozilla-reliant-on-google-for-cash Mozilla: Still too dependent on Google for revenue; Can it diversify? http://blogs.zdnet.com/BTL/?p=27670 I thought Mozilla was a open source project...did that stop? No. ...then why are people getting paid? ..which was why I though everybody doing this stuff (other than Apple with Safari) were volunteers... Safari isn't open source, but large parts of it are. People get paid to work on lots of F/LOSS projects. Yes - that I understand. But I also understand that Apple does a lot of other things which allow it to exist as a corporation. Just what else is it that the Mozilla team do? ...ok, so now we're lead back to code sharing and conspiracy theories...which is it? How do we keep getting back here? I can't tell what conspiracy theories you're talking about. In that between Mozilla, Fire Fox, Goggle Chrome, Camino, Safari, et. al. there are SO many things that look the same and/or function the same. Which leads to the thought that many of these people are obviously cooperating and collaborating. My previous assumption was that only the Google and Apple teams were paid professionals and that the SM team are all volunteer professionals or amateurs...but if all pf these people are all working together and following each other around...what's the big diff between one set and the other then? Mozilla belongs to Google? Or gets paid by them just because you can navigate to Google with them? I still don't get it. Philip gave you links to read. ...and I'm further confused by them...I don't don't get what this company does to stay solvent. Other than act like an all volunteer entity...that accepts money... I remember that the only add-on I've put into SM was to make Google my default search engine...so somebody got paid and it's built in now? AFAIK, SeaMonkey doesn't generate any revenue. Remember that what kicked off this part of the thread was Phil noting that SeaMonkey team cannot afford to hire people. Yes - and that's my point. Mozilla, Fire Fox, Goggle Chrome, Camino, Safari, et. al. don't generate any revenue either - in that they are give aways. In the case of Google and Apple, they have corporate revenue streams and existing hires...so just what else does Mozilla-corp DO that allows them to pay people, and why doesn't the SM team do that? -- - Rufus ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
Phillip Jones wrote: Rufus wrote: Philip Chee wrote: On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 21:42:17 -0800, Rufus wrote: I thought Mozilla was a open source project...did that stop?..which was why I though everybody doing this stuff (other than Apple with Safari) were volunteers... ...ok, so now we're lead back to code sharing and conspiracy theories...which is it? Mozilla belongs to Google? Or gets paid by them just because you can navigate to Google with them? I still don't get it. I remember that the only add-on I've put into SM was to make Google my default search engine...so somebody got paid and it's built in now? Google pays Mozilla so much a hit when using Mozilla Browsers. After the comments that Google Prez said which amounted Google could care less about Privacy and Security. And Asa comments recommending Mozilla Users use Bing instead as a result of the comments. That might end in the future. It was reported in cNet and ZDnet just couple of weeks ago or so. Basically The Google Big wig said privacy and security of the information they handle is not their responsibility. ...ok. Now that at least is starting to make some sense...so in essence, Mozilla is a sub-contractor to Google and fuels it's business by facilitating it's ability to do business. That I can see... ...and I remember those comments about security and can also see both sides of that argument - which would be the argument for using SM if it is more secure than another browser. A circle-jerk, but some of that type of bad press that could benefit both in the long term. Google would just be sub-contracting it's security concerns out to the Mozilla-corp to take care of, a savvy user base would choose it, and Moz-corp keeps ringing the cash register...incestuous, but profitable. -- - Rufus ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Goodbye Seamonkey
On 10-02-04 3:57 PM, Rufus wrote: Chris Ilias wrote: On 10-02-04 6:30 AM, BJ wrote: What the heck is a User Experience person? I mean, what do they do all day? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_experience_design For instance, where should Reply and Forward buttons be? Where should the 'new tab' button be? When a download is finished, should we expect the user to open the file? If so, there should be a way do that when the download is finished. Notice how new updates are only downloaded when you computer has been idle for a certain amount of time? That a user experience thing. I don't know if this has been implemented or not: If you open many tabs at once, the tab that is displaying should load first. The Firefox user experience team has a lot of their work documented at https://wiki.mozilla.org/Firefox/Projects/UX_Priorities_3.7. For Thunderbird, there's https://wiki.mozilla.org/Thunderbird:UX. Basically a user, who's job is to use the software and comment. Single user - single point failure; in that you only get one opinion. Note that the last word in the URL is Design. ;-) Also note that Firefox has a UX *team*. Maybe I should have not cited examples, and placed more emphasis on the wikipedia article. -- Chris Ilias http://ilias.ca List-owner: support-firefox, support-thunderbird, test-multimedia Keeper of the Knowledge Base: https://support.mozilla.com/kb/ ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
