Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt))
Hello everybody, on Samstag, 20. Juli 2019 at 14:41 Gleason wrote re ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt)) >> This makes me think that you don't know anything about HTML and CSS. > Yes, I do know what css is and how it shapes display. What I am > saying is that, in use, my above statement is true and that is what > matters. Other clients do not display Thunderbird quote bars. What is this "Thunderbird quote bar" you are talking about? There is no special Thunderbird keyboard with a special "Thunderbird bar". We all can only use the standard vertical bar | (Unicode U+007C), or as everybody else. > That makes Thunderbird unusable for me. The Bat with a similar system > would also be unusable. TheBat! is in error because it does not render email quotes in incoming emails of content-type=text/html. TheBat! simply ignores quotes and renders them as regular text. And on the other hand, in outgoing mails of content-type=text/html, does not mark quotes as such, but as a spreadsheet, so that the recipient email client does not recognize what is written for this mail by the author, and what had he/she quoted. Even less access the quoted mail or web page using the URN in the CITE parameter. Of course, eMail clients are not the appropriate program for editing spreadsheets, so when the intelligence of a human reader grasps that what is coded as spreadsheet is actually what the author had quoted, and tries to use the text in the table, but will inevitable break the spreadsheet. >> But you insist on making strong statements trying to dictate the >> world how use this markup language and presentation system. >> >> And you want that the eMail client hides to the recipient, what >> is a quote from an earlier message, and provide the link to it, and >> what is newly created by the author for that particular message. >> HTML tags are not made to create an appearance, but they convey a >> meaning. Only by tagging a piece of text as QUOTE > Not if that tag makes no difference in how the quoted text is > displayed. Mr. Gleason writes like someone who is known in his little circle of friends that when he shouts "please kill me!" that he actually means "please kiss me!". For him it makes no difference what he says, as long as his friends understand his distortions of meaning. But one day, someone not familiar with Mr. Gleasons ideosyncrasies will understand his words as they are spoken, and then... "Oh, says Mr. Gleason. It makes no difference what I say as long as my friends understand my distortions" Cheers, Lüko Willms Frankfurt am Main Germany using: TheBat! 8.8.2.8 (BETA) OS: Windows 7(NT 6.1 Build 7601 - Service Pack 1) CPU: AMD amd athlon(tm) 64 x2 dual core processor 4200+ MEM: 4097 MB 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt))
Lüko, > Hello everybody, > on Samstag, 20. Juli 2019 at 14:48 Ethan J. Mings wrote > re ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? > (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt)) > >> Moderator, can you please save us from this debate. It is really not >> helpful. > You are right. This Mr. Gleason has not the slightest idea of > HTML and MIME, but he insists on abusing HTML because he has no clue of how > to used it. > > Sorry for being rude, but fact, and this fact needs to be stated. > > It is time that Ritlabs ignores such foolery. > > A quote needs to be announced to the recipient's client as such, > by using the HTML tag for quoting, i.e. the BLOCKQUOTE tag. > > An email client which doesn't render quotes is quotes and does > not mark quotes as such, is useless. Thanks for your opinion. > Cheers, > Lüko Willms > Frankfurt am Main > Germany > using: TheBat! 8.8.2.8 (BETA) > OS: Windows 7(NT 6.1 Build 7601 - Service Pack 1) > CPU: AMD amd athlon(tm) 64 x2 dual core processor 4200+ > MEM: 4097 MB -- Gleason 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt))
Hello everybody, on Samstag, 20. Juli 2019 at 14:48 Ethan J. Mings wrote re ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt)) > Moderator, can you please save us from this debate. It is really not > helpful. You are right. This Mr. Gleason has not the slightest idea of HTML and MIME, but he insists on abusing HTML because he has no clue of how to used it. Sorry for being rude, but fact, and this fact needs to be stated. It is time that Ritlabs ignores such foolery. A quote needs to be announced to the recipient's client as such, by using the HTML tag for quoting, i.e. the BLOCKQUOTE tag. An email client which doesn't render quotes is quotes and does not mark quotes as such, is useless. Cheers, Lüko Willms Frankfurt am Main Germany using: TheBat! 8.8.2.8 (BETA) OS: Windows 7(NT 6.1 Build 7601 - Service Pack 1) CPU: AMD amd athlon(tm) 64 x2 dual core processor 4200+ MEM: 4097 MB 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt))
Ira, > Hello Lüko, > Sunday, July 21, 2019, 8:34:03 AM, you wrote: > That's OK, but I also understand from your statement that you do > not understand the MIME structure of today's emails in the first place. > I'm a user, not an author. I don't care one tiny bit about rules or > structures having to do with how email is formatted for > transmission. I just want to read, send, organize filter and search my emails. > All that stuff you're arguing about has nothing to do with the > users of an email program. If it just reasonably displayed the email > without all the tabs and attachments showing all the individual > pieces and inline pictures and other noise id would be better at > being an email program. It does all the filtering, searching and > organizing stuff as well or better than anything, but it falls > behind on the most basic requirement of just displaying an email so > it's easy to read and understand. I don't care if other programs are > broken and make life hard, that's not my problem. It just makes the > puzzle a bit harder, but solvable. > There is so much time spent dissecting and arguing about why it > works the way it does or why it can't work the way it should, but > that's all noise. Just make it work like every other email program > ever written. Yes, that is one way. There is also something to be said for trying to improve on the way other programs do things. Not that The Bat's handling of attachments is an improvement. Sometimes, one person's improvement is another person's unnecessary complication. That would be the person who doesn't want to learn a new way. Rather than resist change, I think people sometimes simply don't want to be bothered with new learning. They are busy enough. It gets difficult for developers who want to attract new users with new ideas. Of course, new users aren't resistant since they don't have a previous way of doing things that seems good enough. > Or at least make it an option to hide all the noise. > -- Ira -- Gleason 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt))
Title: Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt)) Hello Lüko, Sunday, July 21, 2019, 8:34:03 AM, you wrote: That's OK, but I also understand from your statement that you do not understand the MIME structure of today's emails in the first place. I'm a user, not an author. I don't care one tiny bit about rules or structures having to do with how email is formatted for transmission. I just want to read, send, organize filter and search my emails. All that stuff you're arguing about has nothing to do with the users of an email program. If it just reasonably displayed the email without all the tabs and attachments showing all the individual pieces and inline pictures and other noise id would be better at being an email program. It does all the filtering, searching and organizing stuff as well or better than anything, but it falls behind on the most basic requirement of just displaying an email so it's easy to read and understand. I don't care if other programs are broken and make life hard, that's not my problem. It just makes the puzzle a bit harder, but solvable. There is so much time spent dissecting and arguing about why it works the way it does or why it can't work the way it should, but that's all noise. Just make it work like every other email program ever written. Or at least make it an option to hide all the noise. -- Ira 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt))
Lüko, > Hello everybody, > on Samstag, 20. Juli 2019 at 19:17 Ira wrote > re ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? > (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt)) >> I'm not trying to understand the structure of emails, I just want to read >> them. > That's OK, but I also understand from your statement that you do > not understand the MIME structure of today's emails in the first place. > > No problem, but you should not keep others from getting an easy > look at exactly that structure, by which token those people in the > know would be able to help you resolving problems which might occur in your > email. >> Saturday, July 20, 2019, 12:41:09 AM, you wrote: >> >>> TheBAt! should have two separate lists, selectable by a TAB, one of >>> the real attachments, the other the nested list of all body parts. >> I see no reason to have a list of nested body parts, I just want >> the email displayed complete. In my setup, the html tab at the bottom of the message preview shows a complete message. It is not necessary to look at the other parts, unless you want to for some reason. >> Though I would be perfectly happy with >> a somewhat hidden way to get that list if I ever see a reason why I >> might care. It's an email program, just show me the email the way >> the sender saw it, certainly not as a list of attachments and >> pieces. > This list of attachments (and body parts) is aside, and you can > ignore it. I think that TheBat! even allows to not show it at all. >> If the sender did choose the "paperclip" to attach the file, >> it's not an attachment and should not appear as such. > > On the contrary, that is marked as an attachment and is > transmitted as such, so that it is not shown inline in the email's > text, but in a list of attachments. > > The problem with TheBat! is that it does not make a difference > between attachments on the one hand, and body parts to be shown inline on the > other. > Therefore my plea for two tabs in the column showing all parts as > "attachments", the one being shown as default for the actual > attachments, the other for all bodyparts in their nested structure. > > Cheers, > Lüko Willms > Frankfurt am Main > Germany > using: TheBat! 8.8.2.8 (BETA) > OS: Windows 7(NT 6.1 Build 7601 - Service Pack 1) > CPU: AMD amd athlon(tm) 64 x2 dual core processor 4200+ > MEM: 4097 MB -- Gleason 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt))
Lüko, > Hello everybody, > on Samstag, 20. Juli 2019 at 19:17 Ira wrote > re ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? > (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt)) >> I'm not trying to understand the structure of emails, I just want to read >> them. I'm sure what he wants to do, or if he is seeing what I see, but my attachment list shows attachments plus message parts. At the bottom of my message preview pane, I see message parts as tabs. Perhaps, he could use the tabs to view parts if he wants to do that, and ignore parts in the attachment list? > That's OK, but I also understand from your statement that you do > not understand the MIME structure of today's emails in the first place. > > No problem, but you should not keep others from getting an easy > look at exactly that structure, by which token those people in the > know would be able to help you resolving problems which might occur in your > email. >> Saturday, July 20, 2019, 12:41:09 AM, you wrote: >> >>> TheBAt! should have two separate lists, selectable by a TAB, one of >>> the real attachments, the other the nested list of all body parts. >> I see no reason to have a list of nested body parts, I just want >> the email displayed complete. Though I would be perfectly happy with >> a somewhat hidden way to get that list if I ever see a reason why I >> might care. It's an email program, just show me the email the way >> the sender saw it, certainly not as a list of attachments and >> pieces. > This list of attachments (and body parts) is aside, and you can > ignore it. I think that TheBat! even allows to not show it at all. >> If the sender did choose the "paperclip" to attach the file, >> it's not an attachment and should not appear as such. > > On the contrary, that is marked as an attachment and is > transmitted as such, so that it is not shown inline in the email's > text, but in a list of attachments. > > The problem with TheBat! is that it does not make a difference > between attachments on the one hand, and body parts to be shown inline on the > other. > Therefore my plea for two tabs in the column showing all parts as > "attachments", the one being shown as default for the actual > attachments, the other for all bodyparts in their nested structure. > > Cheers, > Lüko Willms > Frankfurt am Main > Germany > using: TheBat! 8.8.2.8 (BETA) > OS: Windows 7(NT 6.1 Build 7601 - Service Pack 1) > CPU: AMD amd athlon(tm) 64 x2 dual core processor 4200+ > MEM: 4097 MB -- Gleason 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt))
Hello everybody, on Samstag, 20. Juli 2019 at 19:17 Ira wrote re ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt)) > I'm not trying to understand the structure of emails, I just want to read > them. That's OK, but I also understand from your statement that you do not understand the MIME structure of today's emails in the first place. No problem, but you should not keep others from getting an easy look at exactly that structure, by which token those people in the know would be able to help you resolving problems which might occur in your email. > Saturday, July 20, 2019, 12:41:09 AM, you wrote: > >> TheBAt! should have two separate lists, selectable by a TAB, one of >> the real attachments, the other the nested list of all body parts. > I see no reason to have a list of nested body parts, I just want > the email displayed complete. Though I would be perfectly happy with > a somewhat hidden way to get that list if I ever see a reason why I > might care. It's an email program, just show me the email the way > the sender saw it, certainly not as a list of attachments and > pieces. This list of attachments (and body parts) is aside, and you can ignore it. I think that TheBat! even allows to not show it at all. > If the sender did choose the "paperclip" to attach the file, > it's not an attachment and should not appear as such. On the contrary, that is marked as an attachment and is transmitted as such, so that it is not shown inline in the email's text, but in a list of attachments. The problem with TheBat! is that it does not make a difference between attachments on the one hand, and body parts to be shown inline on the other. Therefore my plea for two tabs in the column showing all parts as "attachments", the one being shown as default for the actual attachments, the other for all bodyparts in their nested structure. Cheers, Lüko Willms Frankfurt am Main Germany using: TheBat! 8.8.2.8 (BETA) OS: Windows 7(NT 6.1 Build 7601 - Service Pack 1) CPU: AMD amd athlon(tm) 64 x2 dual core processor 4200+ MEM: 4097 MB 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt))
Title: Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt)) Hello Lüko, Saturday, July 20, 2019, 12:41:09 AM, you wrote: TheBAt! should have two separate lists, selectable by a TAB, one of the real attachments, the other the nested list of all body parts. I see no reason to have a list of nested body parts, I just want the email displayed complete. Though I would be perfectly happy with a somewhat hidden way to get that list if I ever see a reason why I might care. It's an email program, just show me the email the way the sender saw it, certainly not as a list of attachments and pieces. If the sender did choose the "paperclip" to attach the file, it's not an attachment and should not appear as such. I'm not trying to understand the structure of emails, I just want to read them. -- Ira 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt))
July 20, 2019 Hello Gleason, Saturday, July 20, 2019, 8:41:11 AM, you wrote: > Stop trying to make The Bat unusable. Maybe the concerns can wrapped up and put in one email. Moderator, can you please save us from this debate. It is really not helpful. Jerry -- Ethan J. Mings President, The Desk Consulting Group Inc. Enabling your organization to anticipate the future with confidence! 1-200 North Service Road W. - Suite 311 | Oakville, Ontario, Canada. L6M 2Y1 Phone 905-825-9938 or 1-877-763-7776 | e-mail supp...@thedesk.ca Website https://thedesk.ca/main 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt))
Lüko, > Hello everybody, > on Freitag, 19. Juli 2019 at 15:05 Gleason wrote > re ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? > (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt)) > Thunderbird - Must assign bcc by identity. Quote bar doesn't show on other clients. >>> Showing a bar to to mark a blockquote is the task of the >>> renderer. This is regulated in the CSS STYLE which does either >>> accompany the mail, or which is used by the receiving client by its default >>> STYLE. >> That's interesting. But my comment stands from my testing of different >> clients. If I send a quoted email from Thunderbird, no other client >> shows the quote bar. Only other Thunderbird installations do that. > This makes me think that you don't know anything about HTML and CSS. Yes, I do know what css is and how it shapes display. What I am saying is that, in use, my above statement is true and that is what matters. Other clients do not display Thunderbird quote bars. That makes Thunderbird unusable for me. The Bat with a similar system would also be unusable. > > But you insist on making strong statements trying to dictate the > world how use this markup language and presentation system. > > And you want that the eMail client hides to the recipient, what > is a quote from an earlier message, and provide the link to it, and > what is newly created by the author for that particular message. > HTML tags are not made to create an appearance, but they convey a > meaning. Only by tagging a piece of text as QUOTE Not if that tag makes no difference in how the quoted text is displayed. > can the recipient > know what is a quote and what not, and use the information in the > CITE parameter to the BLOCKQUOTE tag to look up the source of the quote. > > That you don't want to know what is going on, is your problem, > but you should not insist, that nobody should be able to use TheBAt! as a > sensible email client. > > From everything which you have uttered in this thread, it comes > out louder and clearer that you have no clue what HTML is and what eMail is > to be. > > But when you don't know anything about what you are talking about, then > better stay silent. > > And stop working against correcting TheBat! Stop trying to make The Bat unusable. > > Cheers, > Lüko Willms > Frankfurt am Main > Germany > using: TheBat! 8.8.2.8 (BETA) > OS: Windows 7(NT 6.1 Build 7601 - Service Pack 1) > CPU: AMD amd athlon(tm) 64 x2 dual core processor 4200+ > MEM: 4097 MB -- Gleason 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt))
Lüko Willms: > Hello everybody, > > on Freitag, 12. Juli 2019 at 01:22 Maxim Masiutin via TBBETA > wrote > re The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt) > > > we are now working on version 9 > >essential changes like these for proper quoting in HTML-Mails, more than > two years old: > 1216: HTML viewer does not render BLOCKQUOTE > 1217: While replying to an HTML message, quoting should be done by > BLOCKQUOTE, not by TABLE I myself could use a new plain text editor. One with working undo/redo function, among other things. -- Windows 7 Home Premium 64 SP 1 The Bat! Voyager Professional Edition 8.2.4.3 (OTFE) The Bat! Professional Edition 8.6.0.12 (BETA) (64-bit) (OTFE) Luca - e-mail: p.stevens at libero.it 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt))
Hello everybody, on Freitag, 19. Juli 2019 at 15:05 Gleason wrote re ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt)) >>> Thunderbird - Must assign bcc by identity. Quote bar doesn't show on other >>> clients. >> Showing a bar to to mark a blockquote is the task of the >> renderer. This is regulated in the CSS STYLE which does either >> accompany the mail, or which is used by the receiving client by its default >> STYLE. > That's interesting. But my comment stands from my testing of different > clients. If I send a quoted email from Thunderbird, no other client > shows the quote bar. Only other Thunderbird installations do that. This makes me think that you don't know anything about HTML and CSS. But you insist on making strong statements trying to dictate the world how use this markup language and presentation system. And you want that the eMail client hides to the recipient, what is a quote from an earlier message, and provide the link to it, and what is newly created by the author for that particular message. HTML tags are not made to create an appearance, but they convey a meaning. Only by tagging a piece of text as QUOTE can the recipient know what is a quote and what not, and use the information in the CITE parameter to the BLOCKQUOTE tag to look up the source of the quote. That you don't want to know what is going on, is your problem, but you should not insist, that nobody should be able to use TheBAt! as a sensible email client. From everything which you have uttered in this thread, it comes out louder and clearer that you have no clue what HTML is and what eMail is to be. But when you don't know anything about what you are talking about, then better stay silent. And stop working against correcting TheBat! Cheers, Lüko Willms Frankfurt am Main Germany using: TheBat! 8.8.2.8 (BETA) OS: Windows 7(NT 6.1 Build 7601 - Service Pack 1) CPU: AMD amd athlon(tm) 64 x2 dual core processor 4200+ MEM: 4097 MB 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt))
Hello everybody, on Samstag, 20. Juli 2019 at 01:00 Ira wrote re ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt)) stop showing emails without attachments as having a dozen or more attachments. I can live with messed up display, but having to dig through a list of attachment or tabs of different types of text only to discover I'd already read it all is absurd. TheBat!'s error is to treat each and every body part as an "attachment". Attachment are only those with "content-disposition: attachment", not content parts to be shown inline, which is marked with the parameter "content-disposition: inline". TheBAt! should have two separate lists, selectable by a TAB, one of the real attachments, the other the nested list of all body parts. Cheers, Lüko Willms Frankfurt am Main Germany using: TheBat! 8.8.2.8 (BETA) OS: Windows 7(NT 6.1 Build 7601 - Service Pack 1) CPU: AMD amd athlon(tm) 64 x2 dual core processor 4200+ MEM: 4097 MB 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt))
Ira, > Hello Gleason, > Friday, July 19, 2019, 2:42:09 PM, you wrote: Gleason>> HTML being a moving target. That might have something to do with why Gleason>> browsers require such frequent updates. Good enough reason to let people Gleason>> use MS libraries to view html email like The Bat does. > Then stop showing emails without attachments as having a dozen or > more attachments. I can live with messed up display, but having to > dig through a list of attachment or tabs of different types of text > only to discover I'd already read it all is absurd. As for that > matter is defending it as the best there is and denying it's full of > issues. I would never argue its not the best there is, if with the > knowledge I have I didn't think that I'd be using something else, > but that does not change the fact that it's rather severely broken > with seemingly almost no hope of it ever being fixed. Or maybe it is simply that anybody who insists on trying to improve a product in the face of a dieing market for it and in the face of so little appreciation for their efforts must be a little crazy. So maybe we can forgive their oversights on that basis. > -- Ira -- Gleason 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt))
Ira, > Hello Gleason, > Friday, July 19, 2019, 2:42:09 PM, you wrote: Gleason>> HTML being a moving target. That might have something to do with why Gleason>> browsers require such frequent updates. Good enough reason to let people Gleason>> use MS libraries to view html email like The Bat does. > Then stop showing emails without attachments as having a dozen or > more attachments. I can live with messed up display, but having to > dig through a list of attachment or tabs of different types of text > only to discover I'd already read it all is absurd. As for that > matter is defending it as the best there is and denying it's full of > issues. I would never argue its not the best there is, if with the > knowledge I have I didn't think that I'd be using something else, > but that does not change the fact that it's rather severely broken > with seemingly almost no hope of it ever being fixed. But no more broken and demonstrably less broken than the other choices. I certainly don't deny it has issues, and as I said I have my own with it. I also understand what it means to produce and maintain a product like The Bat. So, I am perhaps a little less outraged by its faults, and impressed by what it does accomplish. > -- Ira -- Gleason 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt))
Title: Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt)) Hello Gleason, Friday, July 19, 2019, 2:42:09 PM, you wrote: Gleason> HTML being a moving target. That might have something to do with why Gleason> browsers require such frequent updates. Good enough reason to let people Gleason> use MS libraries to view html email like The Bat does. Then stop showing emails without attachments as having a dozen or more attachments. I can live with messed up display, but having to dig through a list of attachment or tabs of different types of text only to discover I'd already read it all is absurd. As for that matter is defending it as the best there is and denying it's full of issues. I would never argue its not the best there is, if with the knowledge I have I didn't think that I'd be using something else, but that does not change the fact that it's rather severely broken with seemingly almost no hope of it ever being fixed. -- Ira 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt))
Ira, > Hello Gleason, > Friday, July 19, 2019, 7:10:47 AM, you wrote: Gleason>> Qualcomm, which produced the (at one time widely used) Eudora email client, now Gleason>> defunct. They gave it to Mozilla where it has gone no where. > It died because someone thought Thunderbird with a Eudora looking > theme would be enough, but Thunderbird is so far conceptually from > what Eudora was, it could never get close. I tried it. It called > itself Eudora, imported all my Eudora stuff, but then I had to use > Thunderbird which sucks so I kept using Eudora till it started > crashing and then moved to The Bat, something good enough for my > needs that I could live with it. But the list of the Bat's > idiosyncrasies is is long and troubling and no one seems to care to > fix them. You know, really basic stuff like properly displaying a message > with text and html. HTML being a moving target. That might have something to do with why browsers require such frequent updates. Good enough reason to let people use MS libraries to view html email like The Bat does. Maybe Rit thinks they have enough to do without constantly chasing evolving html. Thunderbird at least has the advantage of being able to tap into Firefox html display, which means Thunderbird's html is probably the best outside of MS libraries. My experience with programs that try to do various different things, is that they end up doing none of them well. Like, for instance, programs that try to do email and be a pim at the same time. Let MS take care of the html. Mailbird's html is quite good too if that matters to you. But in the end, choosing an email client is a matter of what you can live with as you say. > -- Ira -- Gleason 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt))
Lüko, > Hello everybody, > on Freitag, 19. Juli 2019 at 15:32 Gleason wrote > re ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? > (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt)) > >>> I can't comment on the "best product" (I am not satisfied, and I >>> would have liked to continue using PMMail/2), >> But for some reason you did not. > The simple reason is that my OS/2 PC broke down. And I see that PMail on os2 is not the same as PMail on Windows (Pegasus). In any case, it does sound like you decided that The Bat was the best choice you could make. Agreed. > > So I looked for an alternative to PMmail on Windows, and TheBat! > with the same 3-panel window seemed to be the closest. > > Cheers, > Lüko Willms > Frankfurt am Main > Germany > using: TheBat! 8.8.2.8 (BETA) > OS: Windows 7(NT 6.1 Build 7601 - Service Pack 1) > CPU: AMD amd athlon(tm) 64 x2 dual core processor 4200+ > MEM: 4097 MB -- Gleason 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt))
Title: Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt)) Hello Gleason, Friday, July 19, 2019, 7:10:47 AM, you wrote: Gleason> Qualcomm, which produced the (at one time widely used) Eudora email client, now Gleason> defunct. They gave it to Mozilla where it has gone no where. It died because someone thought Thunderbird with a Eudora looking theme would be enough, but Thunderbird is so far conceptually from what Eudora was, it could never get close. I tried it. It called itself Eudora, imported all my Eudora stuff, but then I had to use Thunderbird which sucks so I kept using Eudora till it started crashing and then moved to The Bat, something good enough for my needs that I could live with it. But the list of the Bat's idiosyncrasies is is long and troubling and no one seems to care to fix them. You know, really basic stuff like properly displaying a message with text and html. -- Ira 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt))
Hello everybody, on Freitag, 19. Juli 2019 at 15:32 Gleason wrote re ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt)) >> I can't comment on the "best product" (I am not satisfied, and I >> would have liked to continue using PMMail/2), > But for some reason you did not. The simple reason is that my OS/2 PC broke down. So I looked for an alternative to PMmail on Windows, and TheBat! with the same 3-panel window seemed to be the closest. Cheers, Lüko Willms Frankfurt am Main Germany using: TheBat! 8.8.2.8 (BETA) OS: Windows 7(NT 6.1 Build 7601 - Service Pack 1) CPU: AMD amd athlon(tm) 64 x2 dual core processor 4200+ MEM: 4097 MB 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt))
Lüko, > Hello everybody, > on Freitag, 19. Juli 2019 at 16:10 Gleason wrote > re ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? > (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt)) > >>> this universally accepted quoting is what I don't want to loose. >>> A quote is a QUOTE, not a table. >> I guess I don't think it matters what it is called. > You speak like the people on this job interview which the great > Argentinian cartoonist recorded in 9 images, each with a recruiter's > question (marked ¿>) and an applicant's response (marked <), plus a tenth > image showing the result: In this case, the important thing is that the system works, not what it is called. But ok, I will grant the distinction. What about the rest of my reply? > ¿> Name? > < March 19, 1924 > ¿> Address? > < male > ¿> Place of birth? > < married > ¿> highest degree in education? > < 79, Main Street, 2nd floor > ¿> sex? > < High School > ¿> profession? >> Peter Fireman > ¿> marital status? > < three thousand six hundred and twentyfour > ¿> nationality? > < pertussis in the age of 4, measles at 7 > ¿> Good. That's enough. You can start working tomorrow. > > The 10th image shows the applicant sitting at a desk marked "Information". > > You see, it doesn't matter what you say, it works. > > You tell me "Pay the bill I sent you", and I will think "OK, he > says that I should pay the bill, but as usual he means something > completely different, probably that I should instead go out and walk my dog. > > Why bother about language? > > Why use ADD in programming an addition, when you can write > SUBTRACT? Who cares, when Gleason does not care? > > > > Cheers, > Lüko Willms > Frankfurt am Main > Germany > using: TheBat! 8.8.2.8 (BETA) > OS: Windows 7(NT 6.1 Build 7601 - Service Pack 1) > CPU: AMD amd athlon(tm) 64 x2 dual core processor 4200+ > MEM: 4097 MB -- Gleason 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt))
Hello everybody, on Freitag, 19. Juli 2019 at 16:10 Gleason wrote re ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt)) >> this universally accepted quoting is what I don't want to loose. >> A quote is a QUOTE, not a table. > I guess I don't think it matters what it is called. You speak like the people on this job interview which the great Argentinian cartoonist recorded in 9 images, each with a recruiter's question (marked ¿>) and an applicant's response (marked <), plus a tenth image showing the result: ¿> Name? < March 19, 1924 ¿> Address? < male ¿> Place of birth? < married ¿> highest degree in education? < 79, Main Street, 2nd floor ¿> sex? < High School ¿> profession? > Peter Fireman ¿> marital status? < three thousand six hundred and twentyfour ¿> nationality? < pertussis in the age of 4, measles at 7 ¿> Good. That's enough. You can start working tomorrow. The 10th image shows the applicant sitting at a desk marked "Information". You see, it doesn't matter what you say, it works. You tell me "Pay the bill I sent you", and I will think "OK, he says that I should pay the bill, but as usual he means something completely different, probably that I should instead go out and walk my dog. Why bother about language? Why use ADD in programming an addition, when you can write SUBTRACT? Who cares, when Gleason does not care? Cheers, Lüko Willms Frankfurt am Main Germany using: TheBat! 8.8.2.8 (BETA) OS: Windows 7(NT 6.1 Build 7601 - Service Pack 1) CPU: AMD amd athlon(tm) 64 x2 dual core processor 4200+ MEM: 4097 MB 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt))
Lüko, By the way, they told us in Software Engineering school years ago that there is no greater compliment you can pay to a programmer than "It works." Your code can be as sophisticated as you like, but users don't see that. > Hello everybody, > on Montag, 15. Juli 2019 at 15:26 Gleason wrote > re ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? > (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt)) > > this universally accepted quoting is what I don't want to loose. > A quote is a QUOTE, not a table. I guess I don't think it matters what it is called. > You may select a small sample of unkown email clients My list is of the major players, I do a sweep once in a while to look for newcomers. Mailbird, for instance, is newer than the others. It appear in the past 10 years or so. I haven't seen any reasonably successful new clients since. All of the clients on my list have a large (shrinking) group of loyal, committed users willing to defend their choice on the battlefield. >which do it the wrong way. > Especially trying to build endlessly nested TABLEs, as TheBat! is doing, it > utter nonsense. It works. > The correct was has been specified already in 1998 in this > document to be found at W3C, HTML Threading: Conventions for use of > HTML in email written by Eric Berman (Microsoft Corporation), Pete > Resnick (QUALCOMM Incorporated), and Nick Shelness (LOTUS). Qualcomm, which produced the (at one time widely used) Eudora email client, now defunct. They gave it to Mozilla where it has gone no where. Eric and Pete should have realized that they would not be able to change a specification in use by a variety of clients and have them follow. One of the special challenges of email clients is that they need to be able to interact successfully with other clients that do things differently or even incorrectly. Mozilla has ignored this requirement in this case, and it has hurt the spread of Thunderbird users. >HTML hat two semantic tags for quoting: BLOCKQUOTE and Q. > BLOCKQUOTE is, as the name says, a block element, while Q is an inline tag. > > >From the above linked document: > > Appendix A: Suggested Implementation Guidelines > This section describes a suggested implementation model for UAs. > These are guidelines only and do not constitute a requirement for compliance. > Editing issues > Quoting during reply/forward > When quoting a message during a reply/forward, it is recommended > that the text be encapsulated with BLOCKQUOTE elements, with a CITE > attribute identifying the message being quoted, and optionally a > CLASS attribute defining default style information. (BLOCKQUOTEs > explicitly authored by the user should not have an CITE, or should > have a CITE pointing to the current message, so that they can be > distinguished from message excerpts.) > As a message makes several roundtrips, it may acquire several > nested BLOCKQUOTE blocks. Because most HTML implementations indent > BLOCKQUOTE text, the use of BLOCKQUOTE ensures that recipients that > support neither this recommendation nor CSS1 can still display an > appropriate level of indentation to the user. However, a mail UA may > choose to use other elements, such as DIV, if they do not wish to > use BLOCKQUOTE in order to achieve the same grouping of text within > a message (for example, for forwarding a message, where indenting may not be > desired.). > An application MAY choose to enclose all new message text in a DIV > block so that all text is unambiguously tagged. This is not strictly > necessary (since the lack of any explicit element or context > indicates that the text is new). UAs MUST respect this element. When > replying or forwarding the message, UA's MAY change the DIV to a > BLOCKQUOTE to avoid needlessly nesting a DIV within a BLOCKQUOTE. > Editing quoted text > It is common when responding to a message to edit within the quoted > block of text. For example, questions asked within the original > message may be answered one at a time in the response. These edits > can fall into two categories: "block level", where the division > between quoted and new text is a block-level boundary, and "inline", where > there is no such division. > If the user was starting a new block in the middle of an existing > one (by hitting enter, for example), the UA must restart the > existing style and CITE block after the BLOCKQUOTE. > For example, if the original text was: > • > ??The quick black fox?? > >?? > and the replying author hits enter before the word "fox", then the resulting > HTML would be: > • > ??The quick black > ?? >??You mean brown! >?? >??fox > ?? > ?? > The text "You mean brown" will thus appear on its own line and in > the style defined for "ericbe--microsoft-com". Since the new text is > not enclosed in any DIV or BLOCKQUOTE elements, it is considered part of the > current message. > Note that this may nest
Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt))
Lüko, > Hello everybody, > on Montag, 15. Juli 2019 at 19:55 Gleason wrote > re ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? > (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt)) > >> list [of email clients] I keep >> For instance here is my short list — with my comments regarding quoting HTML >> mails >> Becky - never heard of this >> Pegasus - does Pegasus still exist? >> eMclient - never heard of this >> The Bat - does it wrong >> Thunderbird - quotes correctly with HTML tags for quoting >> Postbox - never heard of this >> Maiilbird - unknown to me >> inscribe - never heard of this > What about Applemail? Outlook? Outlook express, MS Live? My interest is in high performance email clients. None of those qualify. They are general use clients for people who read an email, maybe reply and then delete it. But I do see that Outlook also does not show Mozilla quotes. At least for the ones who interact with me. The age of the general use email client is past. General users use webmail, texting on phones, and forums these days. The only market now is for high performance clients. Quote bars that don't show on other clients is not high performance. > Cheers, > Lüko Willms > Frankfurt am Main > Germany > using: TheBat! 8.8.2.8 (BETA) > OS: Windows 7(NT 6.1 Build 7601 - Service Pack 1) > CPU: AMD amd athlon(tm) 64 x2 dual core processor 4200+ > MEM: 4097 MB -- Gleason 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt))
Lüko, > Hello everybody, > on Montag, 15. Juli 2019 at 15:26 Gleason wrote > re ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? > (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt)) > > this universally accepted quoting is what I don't want to loose. > A quote is a QUOTE, not a table. I guess I don't think it matters what it is called. > You may select a small sample of unkown email clients My list is of the major players, I do a sweep once in a while to look for newcomers. Mailbird, for instance, is newer than the others. It appear in the past 10 years or so. I haven't seen any reasonably successful new clients since. All of the clients on my list have a large (shrinking) group of loyal, committed users willing to defend their choice on the battlefield. >which do it the wrong way. > Especially trying to build endlessly nested TABLEs, as TheBat! is doing, it > utter nonsense. It works. > The correct was has been specified already in 1998 in this > document to be found at W3C, HTML Threading: Conventions for use of > HTML in email written by Eric Berman (Microsoft Corporation), Pete > Resnick (QUALCOMM Incorporated), and Nick Shelness (LOTUS). Qualcomm, which produced the (at one time widely used) Eudora email client, now defunct. They gave it to Mozilla where it has gone no where. Eric and Pete should have realized that they would not be able to change a specification in use by a variety of clients and have them follow. One of the special challenges of email clients is that they need to be able to interact successfully with other clients that do things differently or even incorrectly. Mozilla has ignored this requirement in this case, and it has hurt the spread of Thunderbird users. >HTML hat two semantic tags for quoting: BLOCKQUOTE and Q. > BLOCKQUOTE is, as the name says, a block element, while Q is an inline tag. > > >From the above linked document: > > Appendix A: Suggested Implementation Guidelines > This section describes a suggested implementation model for UAs. > These are guidelines only and do not constitute a requirement for compliance. > Editing issues > Quoting during reply/forward > When quoting a message during a reply/forward, it is recommended > that the text be encapsulated with BLOCKQUOTE elements, with a CITE > attribute identifying the message being quoted, and optionally a > CLASS attribute defining default style information. (BLOCKQUOTEs > explicitly authored by the user should not have an CITE, or should > have a CITE pointing to the current message, so that they can be > distinguished from message excerpts.) > As a message makes several roundtrips, it may acquire several > nested BLOCKQUOTE blocks. Because most HTML implementations indent > BLOCKQUOTE text, the use of BLOCKQUOTE ensures that recipients that > support neither this recommendation nor CSS1 can still display an > appropriate level of indentation to the user. However, a mail UA may > choose to use other elements, such as DIV, if they do not wish to > use BLOCKQUOTE in order to achieve the same grouping of text within > a message (for example, for forwarding a message, where indenting may not be > desired.). > An application MAY choose to enclose all new message text in a DIV > block so that all text is unambiguously tagged. This is not strictly > necessary (since the lack of any explicit element or context > indicates that the text is new). UAs MUST respect this element. When > replying or forwarding the message, UA's MAY change the DIV to a > BLOCKQUOTE to avoid needlessly nesting a DIV within a BLOCKQUOTE. > Editing quoted text > It is common when responding to a message to edit within the quoted > block of text. For example, questions asked within the original > message may be answered one at a time in the response. These edits > can fall into two categories: "block level", where the division > between quoted and new text is a block-level boundary, and "inline", where > there is no such division. > If the user was starting a new block in the middle of an existing > one (by hitting enter, for example), the UA must restart the > existing style and CITE block after the BLOCKQUOTE. > For example, if the original text was: > • > ??The quick black fox?? > >?? > and the replying author hits enter before the word "fox", then the resulting > HTML would be: > • > ??The quick black > ?? >??You mean brown! >?? >??fox > ?? > ?? > The text "You mean brown" will thus appear on its own line and in > the style defined for "ericbe--microsoft-com". Since the new text is > not enclosed in any DIV or BLOCKQUOTE elements, it is considered part of the > current message. > Note that this may nest arbitrarily deep, so it may be necessary > to close multiple BLOCKQUOTE elements and then reopen each one, with > the right CLASS and CITE attributes, and in the right order. > [follows an example of inline quoting using
Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt))
Lüko, > Hello everybody, > on Dienstag, 16. Juli 2019 at 12:49 Gleason wrote > re ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? > (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt)) > >> It seems to me that Rit Labs is an economic marvel. They have >> produced the best product on the market and remain viable in a niche >> that many others have found bankrupting > I can't comment on the "best product" (I am not satisfied, and I > would have liked to continue using PMMail/2), But for some reason you did not. Perhaps > no automatic mail check for imap, no message flag made Pegasus unusable for you as it did for me. Also it's imap implementation is not nearly as well done as The Bat's. David does continue to promise a much better version 3. But he is getting older, and he has been working on v3 for a long time. > but one should > consider that Moldova is a special place to live in. Cheaper to live > in but with easy access to a lot of other markets. There are a lot of cheap places to live in the world, all with easy internet access to other markets. Rit remains a marvel. David, for instance, lives in New Zealand. I suspect one thing that holds him back is that he continues to want to soldier on by himself. > Cheers, > Lüko Willms > Frankfurt am Main > Germany > using: TheBat! 8.8.2.8 (BETA) > OS: Windows 7(NT 6.1 Build 7601 - Service Pack 1) > CPU: AMD amd athlon(tm) 64 x2 dual core processor 4200+ > MEM: 4097 MB -- Gleason 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt))
Hello everybody, on Montag, 15. Juli 2019 at 19:55 Gleason wrote re ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt)) > list [of email clients] I keep > For instance here is my short list — with my comments regarding quoting HTML > mails > Becky - never heard of this > Pegasus - does Pegasus still exist? > eMclient - never heard of this > The Bat - does it wrong > Thunderbird - quotes correctly with HTML tags for quoting > Postbox - never heard of this > Maiilbird - unknown to me > inscribe - never heard of this What about Applemail? Outlook? Outlook express, MS Live? Cheers, Lüko Willms Frankfurt am Main Germany using: TheBat! 8.8.2.8 (BETA) OS: Windows 7(NT 6.1 Build 7601 - Service Pack 1) CPU: AMD amd athlon(tm) 64 x2 dual core processor 4200+ MEM: 4097 MB 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt))
Hello everybody, on Montag, 15. Juli 2019 at 15:26 Gleason wrote re ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt)) this universally accepted quoting is what I don't want to loose. A quote is a QUOTE, not a table. You may select a small sample of unkown email clients which do it the wrong way. Especially trying to build endlessly nested TABLEs, as TheBat! is doing, it utter nonsense. The correct was has been specified already in 1998 in this document to be found at W3C, HTML Threading: Conventions for use of HTML in email written by Eric Berman (Microsoft Corporation), Pete Resnick (QUALCOMM Incorporated), and Nick Shelness (LOTUS). HTML hat two semantic tags for quoting: BLOCKQUOTE and Q. BLOCKQUOTE is, as the name says, a block element, while Q is an inline tag. From the above linked document: Appendix A: Suggested Implementation Guidelines This section describes a suggested implementation model for UAs. These are guidelines only and do not constitute a requirement for compliance. Editing issues Quoting during reply/forward When quoting a message during a reply/forward, it is recommended that the text be encapsulated with BLOCKQUOTE elements, with a CITE attribute identifying the message being quoted, and optionally a CLASS attribute defining default style information. (BLOCKQUOTEs explicitly authored by the user should not have an CITE, or should have a CITE pointing to the current message, so that they can be distinguished from message excerpts.) As a message makes several roundtrips, it may acquire several nested BLOCKQUOTE blocks. Because most HTML implementations indent BLOCKQUOTE text, the use of BLOCKQUOTE ensures that recipients that support neither this recommendation nor CSS1 can still display an appropriate level of indentation to the user. However, a mail UA may choose to use other elements, such as DIV, if they do not wish to use BLOCKQUOTE in order to achieve the same grouping of text within a message (for example, for forwarding a message, where indenting may not be desired.). An application MAY choose to enclose all new message text in a DIV block so that all text is unambiguously tagged. This is not strictly necessary (since the lack of any explicit element or context indicates that the text is new). UAs MUST respect this element. When replying or forwarding the message, UA's MAY change the DIV to a BLOCKQUOTE to avoid needlessly nesting a DIV within a BLOCKQUOTE. Editing quoted text It is common when responding to a message to edit within the quoted block of text. For example, questions asked within the original message may be answered one at a time in the response. These edits can fall into two categories: "block level", where the division between quoted and new text is a block-level boundary, and "inline", where there is no such division. If the user was starting a new block in the middle of an existing one (by hitting enter, for example), the UA must restart the existing style and CITE block after the BLOCKQUOTE. For example, if the original text was: • The quick black fox and the replying author hits enter before the word "fox", then the resulting HTML would be: • The quick black You mean brown! fox The text "You mean brown" will thus appear on its own line and in the style defined for "ericbe--microsoft-com". Since the new text is not enclosed in any DIV or BLOCKQUOTE elements, it is considered part of the current message. Note that this may nest arbitrarily deep, so it may be necessary to close multiple BLOCKQUOTE elements and then reopen each one, with the right CLASS and CITE attributes, and in the right order. [follows an example of inline quoting using the Q tag, so that the quoted text does not appear in a line by itself] Try to do that with nested TABLEs (TABLE is meant to be nested arbitrarily deep), and it will create a madhouse. What TheBat! does is an abuse of HTML. If there would be an HTML police, TheBat! would be punished for this violation of fundamentals. Cheers, Lüko Willms Frankfurt am Main Germany using: TheBat! 8.8.2.8 (BETA) OS: Windows 7(NT 6.1 Build 7601 - Service Pack 1) CPU: AMD amd athlon(tm) 64 x2 dual core processor 4200+ MEM: 4097 MB 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt))
Lüko, > Hello everybody, > on Montag, 15. Juli 2019 at 19:55 Gleason wrote > re ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? > (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt)) > >> Thunderbird - Must assign bcc by identity. Quote bar doesn't show on other >> clients. > Showing a bar to to mark a blockquote is the task of the > renderer. This is regulated in the CSS STYLE which does either > accompany the mail, or which is used by the receiving client by its default > STYLE. That's interesting. But my comment stands from my testing of different clients. If I send a quoted email from Thunderbird, no other client shows the quote bar. Only other Thunderbird installations do that. > > TheBat! does not mark proper quotes at all. > See »1216: HTML viewer does not render BLOCKQUOTE« at Ritlabs' > Mantis bug tracker > > This is an error of TheBat!, not of Thunderbird. Regardless, the reverse is true of The Bat. All other clients, including Thunderbird do show quote bars sent by The Bat. > Cheers, > Lüko Willms > Frankfurt am Main > Germany > using: TheBat! 8.8.2.8 (BETA) > OS: Windows 7(NT 6.1 Build 7601 - Service Pack 1) > CPU: AMD amd athlon(tm) 64 x2 dual core processor 4200+ > MEM: 4097 MB -- Gleason 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt))
Hello everybody, on Dienstag, 16. Juli 2019 at 12:49 Gleason wrote re ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt)) > It seems to me that Rit Labs is an economic marvel. They have > produced the best product on the market and remain viable in a niche > that many others have found bankrupting I can't comment on the "best product" (I am not satisfied, and I would have liked to continue using PMMail/2), but one should consider that Moldova is a special place to live in. Cheaper to live in but with easy access to a lot of other markets. Cheers, Lüko Willms Frankfurt am Main Germany using: TheBat! 8.8.2.8 (BETA) OS: Windows 7(NT 6.1 Build 7601 - Service Pack 1) CPU: AMD amd athlon(tm) 64 x2 dual core processor 4200+ MEM: 4097 MB 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt))
Hello everybody, on Montag, 15. Juli 2019 at 19:55 Gleason wrote re ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt)) > Thunderbird - Must assign bcc by identity. Quote bar doesn't show on other > clients. Showing a bar to to mark a blockquote is the task of the renderer. This is regulated in the CSS STYLE which does either accompany the mail, or which is used by the receiving client by its default STYLE. TheBat! does not mark proper quotes at all. See »1216: HTML viewer does not render BLOCKQUOTE« at Ritlabs' Mantis bug tracker This is an error of TheBat!, not of Thunderbird. Cheers, Lüko Willms Frankfurt am Main Germany using: TheBat! 8.8.2.8 (BETA) OS: Windows 7(NT 6.1 Build 7601 - Service Pack 1) CPU: AMD amd athlon(tm) 64 x2 dual core processor 4200+ MEM: 4097 MB 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt))
Title: Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt)) lunes, 15 jul. 2019 at 22:49, it seems you wrote: Yes, that allows you to tie a specific set of macros to a specific email address. Better would be to be able to specify a set of identities with different email addresses, etc. Then when I prepare a new email/reply, I should be able to simply choose the identity I want from a drop down list. Of course that it's a better way to do that you're asking for. It is true that a certain send to address would probably always get the same identity, but since I work with a lot of often changing correspondents, it becomes overwhelming to be constantly adding new, removing old, especially since few identities would have only one correspondent. I have the same as you. One folder for a company with one or more correspondents. Sent and received emails in a threaded view on that folder and one identitiy for that folder. The other thing is that The Bat has been known to throw away all my defined QT's, message templates, etc. when using a new installer. It is best to not have many, I think. Even so, it is a nuisance for me when I must reenter all I have. I don't had problems with QTs from long long time, and I'm using TB! from the 1.x version. The only problem I had so much times it's the lost of groups colors assigned to some emails. I don't isolated yet the problem so it's a bit difficult to report. Regards, -- /\ / Using The Bat! 8.8.9 Professional OTFE with iKey1000 / \ / \ / Windows (10.0.18362 ) / \/ e t \/ i c i o u s Plugins: AntiSpamSniper 3.3.3.9 and Spanish Translator of The Bat! 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt))
Ira, > Hello Gleason, > Monday, July 15, 2019, 9:55:49 PM, you wrote: > You do embedded work. I bet you are paid well, and you can afford > the luxury of jumping on an airplane to fix somebody's problem. > Yes, I do embedded work. I own the company, so I can do what I want > and yes I could afford it, but out of more than twenty thousand > users only 5 had the problem so like many other companies, I could > have ignored it, but I can't. Companies who don't want bugs, work at > getting rid of them. It's a task that has to be done and yet many > authors consider it drudge work. I made my living working on custom > accounting systems for small businesses fixing other peoples broken > code, I think it's fun, that's seemingly rare, but it has to be done. > Or eventually, even the loyal ones will leave. And go where? I don't think Rit Labs can be accused of ignoring bugs. I can remember some years ago when The Bat's imap was quite buggy. Much better now. Thanks for that Rit. Sometimes reported bugs remain because the developers can't reproduce them. Sometimes a perceived bug is really a design choice. I don't think it is fair to compare the necessary choices of a less profitable business with a hugely profitable one. It seems to me that Rit Labs is an economic marvel. They have produced the best product on the market and remain viable in a niche that many others have found bankrupting. > -- Ira -- Gleason 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt))
MAU, > Hello Gleason, The Bat - poor support for identities >>> What do you need? >>> I use a lot of email aliases, and with macros in the templates I use >>> each aliases without any problem. I set one folder to receive all the >>> messages sent or received with one alias. And when I create a new mail >>> from that folder the aliases are used. >>> At this moment I'm writing you from one alias with that setup. >>> %IF:"%- >>> %TOLIST%CCLIST%BCCLIST"="":'%TO="tbbeta@thebat.dutaint.com"' >>> %QT="tb_netvicious.com" >> Yes, that allows you to tie a specific set of macros to a specific email >> address. Better >> would be to be able to specify a set of identities with different email >> addresses, etc. >> Then when I prepare a new email/reply, I should be able to simply choose the >> identity I >> want from a drop down list. > As I am sure you know, in each folder Properties you can define an Identity > for that folder. > Before retirement, when still actively working, I did need to use different > Identities. So, > what I did was to create a folder called Identities, with a subfolder for > each Identity. It > was a good substitute for the drop down list you would like. And no need for > macros. Right, I didn't say there was no support for identities. But the support provided is poor compared to other systems. The Bat was the only one in my list with this lack. > -- > Best regards, > Miguel A. Urech (Els Poblets (Alicante - Spain) > Using The Bat! Version 8.8.9 (64-bit) on Windows 10.0 -- Gleason 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt))
Hello Gleason, >>> The Bat - poor support for identities >> What do you need? >> I use a lot of email aliases, and with macros in the templates I use >> each aliases without any problem. I set one folder to receive all the >> messages sent or received with one alias. And when I create a new mail >> from that folder the aliases are used. >> At this moment I'm writing you from one alias with that setup. >> %IF:"%- >> %TOLIST%CCLIST%BCCLIST"="":'%TO="tbbeta@thebat.dutaint.com"' >> %QT="tb_netvicious.com" > Yes, that allows you to tie a specific set of macros to a specific email > address. Better > would be to be able to specify a set of identities with different email > addresses, etc. > Then when I prepare a new email/reply, I should be able to simply choose the > identity I > want from a drop down list. As I am sure you know, in each folder Properties you can define an Identity for that folder. Before retirement, when still actively working, I did need to use different Identities. So, what I did was to create a folder called Identities, with a subfolder for each Identity. It was a good substitute for the drop down list you would like. And no need for macros. -- Best regards, Miguel A. Urech (Els Poblets (Alicante - Spain) Using The Bat! Version 8.8.9 (64-bit) on Windows 10.0 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt))
Title: Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt)) Hello Gleason, Monday, July 15, 2019, 9:55:49 PM, you wrote: You do embedded work. I bet you are paid well, and you can afford the luxury of jumping on an airplane to fix somebody's problem. Yes, I do embedded work. I own the company, so I can do what I want and yes I could afford it, but out of more than twenty thousand users only 5 had the problem so like many other companies, I could have ignored it, but I can't. Companies who don't want bugs, work at getting rid of them. It's a task that has to be done and yet many authors consider it drudge work. I made my living working on custom accounting systems for small businesses fixing other peoples broken code, I think it's fun, that's seemingly rare, but it has to be done. Or eventually, even the loyal ones will leave. -- Ira 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt))
Ira, Hello Gleason, Monday, July 15, 2019, 10:55:48 AM, you wrote: Gleason> So give The Bat a fair chance. It is the best out there relatively. I do give it a fair chance and I always upgrade, but that doesn't mean it's not broken. Personally, not one piece of software I've written has any known bugs. I'm embarrassed when bugs get reported in my software and so I make them go away. Sometimes for my embedded stuff that pays bills, at my expense, I jump on an airplane to visit a customer or make new PC boards with a bunch of LEDs so the customer can tell me where the problem happens. I'm not so generous for my freeware, but I rarely let bugs last past the next day. I just couldn't live with myself. So when bugs in a program I pay for don't get resolved I tend to think the either people at the top don't care or the people writing the code aren't up to the task. But the Bat seem to be the best there is, so I tolerate it's foibles. But that makes it difficult to recommend. Understood. As you say, it is the best there is. There is nothing else to recommend, so don't prejudice potential users. Email clients seem to be different from other kinds of software. It takes 10 years or so to get a fairly decent client more or less done. I say that because it seems to take that long. For some, resources have run out and they had to go away. Mulberry was one of those. As far as an imap design concept, I count it as the best there is (was). But the author couldn't sell enough to pay for what it would take to work out problems on the code side. I don't think he lacked for skill, since he was in on the imap 4 development team. Beyond that, email clients are falling into disuse. Webmail, textmail on phones, forums, etc are the new way. And it was always difficult to charge a fair price for the work done, because for one thing, you are competing against all the free clients. Another thing is that email clients developed by a lone worker seem to do less well than those managed by a team. The complexity demanded seems to require that, and teams are a lot more expensive to maintain and less willing to stick it through the lean times. You do embedded work. I bet you are paid well, and you can afford the luxury of jumping on an airplane to fix somebody's problem. -- Gleason 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt))
Title: Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt)) Hello Gleason, Monday, July 15, 2019, 10:55:48 AM, you wrote: Gleason> So give The Bat a fair chance. It is the best out there relatively. I do give it a fair chance and I always upgrade, but that doesn't mean it's not broken. Personally, not one piece of software I've written has any known bugs. I'm embarrassed when bugs get reported in my software and so I make them go away. Sometimes for my embedded stuff that pays bills, at my expense, I jump on an airplane to visit a customer or make new PC boards with a bunch of LEDs so the customer can tell me where the problem happens. I'm not so generous for my freeware, but I rarely let bugs last past the next day. I just couldn't live with myself. So when bugs in a program I pay for don't get resolved I tend to think the either people at the top don't care or the people writing the code aren't up to the task. But the Bat seem to be the best there is, so I tolerate it's foibles. But that makes it difficult to recommend. -- Ira 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt))
NetVicious,
> lunes, 15 jul. 2019 at 19:55, it seems you wrote:
>> The Bat - poor support for identities
> What do you need?
> I use a lot of email aliases, and with macros in the templates I use
> each aliases without any problem. I set one folder to receive all the
> messages sent or received with one alias. And when I create a new mail
> from that folder the aliases are used.
> At this moment I'm writing you from one alias with that setup.
> %IF:"%-
> %TOLIST%CCLIST%BCCLIST"="":'%TO="tbbeta@thebat.dutaint.com"'
> %QT="tb_netvicious.com"
Yes, that allows you to tie a specific set of macros to a specific email
address. Better
would be to be able to specify a set of identities with different email
addresses, etc.
Then when I prepare a new email/reply, I should be able to simply choose the
identity I
want from a drop down list.
It is true that a certain send to address would probably always get the same
identity, but
since I work with a lot of often changing correspondents, it becomes
overwhelming to be
constantly adding new, removing old, especially since few identities would have
only one
correspondent.
The other thing is that The Bat has been known to throw away all my defined
QT's, message templates, etc.
when using a new installer. It is best to not have many, I think. Even so, it
is a nuisance for me when
I must reenter all I have.
> That QT has:
> %FROM="NetVicious "
> %REPLYTO="NetVicious "
> %SETHEADER("X-Rogue",":netvicious:")
> With macros you can set all the identities you new.
> Obviously this can be made more simple adding options to TB! to do it
> without the need of using macros. But it works for me from a long long
> long time.
> Regards,
--
Gleason
'Using TBBETA' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt))
lunes, 15 jul. 2019 at 19:55, it seems you wrote:
> The Bat - poor support for identities
What do you need?
I use a lot of email aliases, and with macros in the templates I use
each aliases without any problem. I set one folder to receive all the
messages sent or received with one alias. And when I create a new mail
from that folder the aliases are used.
At this moment I'm writing you from one alias with that setup.
%IF:"%-
%TOLIST%CCLIST%BCCLIST"="":'%TO="tbbeta@thebat.dutaint.com"'
%QT="tb_netvicious.com"
That QT has:
%FROM="NetVicious "
%REPLYTO="NetVicious "
%SETHEADER("X-Rogue",":netvicious:")
With macros you can set all the identities you new.
Obviously this can be made more simple adding options to TB! to do it
without the need of using macros. But it works for me from a long long
long time.
Regards,
--
/\/ Using The Bat! 8.8.9 Professional OTFE with
iKey1000
/ \ / \ / Windows (10.0.18362 )
/\/ e t \/ i c i o u s Plugins: AntiSpamSniper 3.3.3.9 and
Spanish Translator of The Bat!
'Using TBBETA' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt))
Ira, > Hello Maxim, > Monday, July 15, 2019, 9:04:21 AM, you wrote: Maxim>> We are still committed to compatibility with Windows XP > How many customers still use XP? I bet it's in the single digit > percent and you're better off leaving them behind. No one who has > any inkling of security will still be using XP on an internet > connected computer. Decisions like that are probably what will end up killing > the product. > Personally I like the Bat, but I just wish you'd fix the bugs and > not worry about new features. I'd guess that involves a lot of > rewriting sections from scratch given the number of times seeming > unrelated bugs pop up after what should have been simple fixes. That's the trade off. New features and new ideas attract new users. Fixes make old users smile more. > I refuse to use online mail and I use the Bat and have just had to > accept that you'll never fix the bugs and I just have to put up with > the annoyances, but it's not a way to make sure your customer base > expands. When people ask me about email programs , I tell them about > the Bat, but I always have to include cautions about the weirdness > of how it works and the bugs that never get fixed. Actually, not one client in the list I keep has reached that level of completion. When you say that about The Bat, and fail to say that every client out there has weirdnesses of their own and things that don't get fixed, you essentially don't give The Bat a fair chance. For instance here is my short list of weirdnesses: Becky - many functions don't work for imap, like message filters Pegasus - no automatic mail check for imap, no message flag eMclient - no template macros, signature shows at top of reply The Bat - poor support for identities Thunderbird - Must assign bcc by identity. Quote bar doesn't show on other clients. Postbox - TBird + no templates Maiilbird - no filters, no templates, no quote previous inscribe - Can't quote previous message in reply, loading large messagebase is inefficient So give The Bat a fair chance. It is the best out there relatively. > Give what it is > capable of, it should be considered the best and most flexible, but > the apparent inability of the programming staff to finish it, keeps > it far from being the best choice for quite large percentages of the > population. > -- Ira -- Gleason 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt))
Title: Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt)) Hello Maxim, Monday, July 15, 2019, 9:04:21 AM, you wrote: Maxim> We are still committed to compatibility with Windows XP How many customers still use XP? I bet it's in the single digit percent and you're better off leaving them behind. No one who has any inkling of security will still be using XP on an internet connected computer. Decisions like that are probably what will end up killing the product. Personally I like the Bat, but I just wish you'd fix the bugs and not worry about new features. I'd guess that involves a lot of rewriting sections from scratch given the number of times seeming unrelated bugs pop up after what should have been simple fixes. I refuse to use online mail and I use the Bat and have just had to accept that you'll never fix the bugs and I just have to put up with the annoyances, but it's not a way to make sure your customer base expands. When people ask me about email programs , I tell them about the Bat, but I always have to include cautions about the weirdness of how it works and the bugs that never get fixed. Give what it is capable of, it should be considered the best and most flexible, but the apparent inability of the programming staff to finish it, keeps it far from being the best choice for quite large percentages of the population. -- Ira 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt))
Hello Lüko, We are replacing TB2K/TBX/SpTBX toolbars and menus to DevExpress ribbon controls. Window elements like buttons, checkboxes, radiobuttons, status bars, etc. will have consistent look according to a currently selected theme provided by the DevExpress library. PGP internal implementation will be removed. Third-party libraries like PngLib, JpegLib, PCRE, etc. will be updated to most recent versions. Many thread-related bugs will be fixed. These bugs, for example, caused abnormalities on The Bat! exit, i.e. The Bat! Process could stay in the task manager after the user have exited the application. We are also remove lot of legacy code and replace it with new leaner one without sacrificing functionality of The Bat!. The new code is smaller, faster and easier to manage by the developers. However, the addition of DevExpress will likely increase the executable size of The Bat! significantly. We are still committed to compatibility with Windows XP. We will unlikely fix the BLOCKQUOTE issues alongside the changes above mentioned. -- Best regards, Maxim Masiutin 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt))
Lüko, Hello Gleason, hello everybody, on Montag, 15. Juli 2019 at 00:59 Gleason wrote re ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt)) >> So stop talking nonsense about things which are beyond your >> horizon, and stay put in your little box. > Perhaps you know nothing at all about me. I understand that you are using nothing but content-type=text/plain, and I tell you that when you think that HTML tags like have anything to do with that, then I have to tell you that you don't know what you are talking about. Bother about text/plain (but why do you use UTF-8, then?) and don't throw stones into areas which are beyond your horizon and which you obviously do not understand. I guess html is ok in this list now. Here is what my reply to you outside of this list would look like. Better? And this universally accepted quoting is what I don't want to loose. Mozilla can go their own way, but the world has not followed. Cheers, Lüko Willms Frankfurt am Main Germany using: TheBat! 8.8.2.8 (BETA) OS: Windows 7(NT 6.1 Build 7601 - Service Pack 1) CPU: AMD amd athlon(tm) 64 x2 dual core processor 4200+ MEM: 4097 MB -- Gleason 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt))
Lüko, > Hello Gleason, hello everybody, > on Montag, 15. Juli 2019 at 00:59 Gleason wrote > re ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? > (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt)) > >>> So stop talking nonsense about things which are beyond your >>> horizon, and stay put in your little box. >> Perhaps you know nothing at all about me. > I understand that you are using nothing but > content-type=text/plain, and I tell you that when you think that > HTML tags like have anything to do > with that, then I have to tell you that you don't know what you are talking > about. > > Bother about text/plain (but why do you use UTF-8, then?) and > don't throw stones into areas which are beyond your horizon and > which you obviously do not understand. I use plain text/microed when replying to this list. In every other case, I use html. You know nothing about what I understand.It might be that the list no longer requires plain text. I don't see the moderator stepping in to tell you about it. > Cheers, > Lüko Willms > Frankfurt am Main > Germany > using: TheBat! 8.8.2.8 (BETA) > OS: Windows 7(NT 6.1 Build 7601 - Service Pack 1) > CPU: AMD amd athlon(tm) 64 x2 dual core processor 4200+ > MEM: 4097 MB -- Gleason 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt))
Hello everybody, on Montag, 15. Juli 2019 at 03:41 Thomas Fernandez wrote re ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt)) I don't know about blockquotes but what annoys me tremendously is that some HTML messages are simply not displayed: https://bt.ritlabs.com/view.php?id=1479 I remember that problem. I believe to have commented on it in this mailing list. But obviously not in Ritlabs's Mantis bug tracker. Cheers, Lüko Willms Frankfurt am Main Germany using: TheBat! 8.8.2.8 (BETA) OS: Windows 7(NT 6.1 Build 7601 - Service Pack 1) CPU: AMD amd athlon(tm) 64 x2 dual core processor 4200+ MEM: 4097 MB 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt))
Hello Gleason, hello everybody, on Montag, 15. Juli 2019 at 00:59 Gleason wrote re ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt)) >> So stop talking nonsense about things which are beyond your >> horizon, and stay put in your little box. > Perhaps you know nothing at all about me. I understand that you are using nothing but content-type=text/plain, and I tell you that when you think that HTML tags like have anything to do with that, then I have to tell you that you don't know what you are talking about. Bother about text/plain (but why do you use UTF-8, then?) and don't throw stones into areas which are beyond your horizon and which you obviously do not understand. Cheers, Lüko Willms Frankfurt am Main Germany using: TheBat! 8.8.2.8 (BETA) OS: Windows 7(NT 6.1 Build 7601 - Service Pack 1) CPU: AMD amd athlon(tm) 64 x2 dual core processor 4200+ MEM: 4097 MB 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt))
Hello Lüko, On Sun, 14 Jul 2019 19:05:14 +0200 GMT (14-Jul-19, 23:35 +0700 GMT), Lüko Willms wrote: Hello everybody, on Freitag, 12. Juli 2019 at 01:22 Maxim Masiutin via TBBETA wrote re The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt) > we are now working on version 9 essential changes like these for proper quoting in HTML-Mails, more than two years old: 1216: HTML viewer does not render BLOCKQUOTE 1217: While replying to an HTML message, quoting should be done by BLOCKQUOTE, not by TABLE Without this, TheBat! is not really useable for correspondence, and not worth to be recommended to any one I care for. I would rather not want to pay for a new version 9, if those changes are not implemented. I don't know about blockquotes but what annoys me tremendously is that some HTML messages are simply not displayed: https://bt.ritlabs.com/view.php?id=1479 -- Cheers, Thomas. Message reply created with The Bat! 8.8.9 under Windows 10.0 Build 18362 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt))
Lüko, > Hello Gleaseon (? I can't find your signature), > on Sonntag, 14. Juli 2019 at 20:28 Gleason wrote > re ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? > (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt)) > >> disagree >You simply do not understand what this is about. It is about what works with different email clients. Something I do know about since I have many. > From the header of your mail: > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > under those conditions, TheBat! does not create nested HTML-Tables. Of course. The last I heard, this list was supposed to be text only. So that is what I send. > So stop talking nonsense about things which are beyond your > horizon, and stay put in your little box. Perhaps you know nothing at all about me. > People like you have made Facebook and Twitter great. I don't go there. A total waste of time. > Cheers, > Lüko Willms > Frankfurt am Main > Germany > using: TheBat! 8.8.2.8 (BETA) > OS: Windows 7(NT 6.1 Build 7601 - Service Pack 1) > CPU: AMD amd athlon(tm) 64 x2 dual core processor 4200+ > MEM: 4097 MB -- Gleason 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt))
Hello Gleaseon (? I can't find your signature), on Sonntag, 14. Juli 2019 at 20:28 Gleason wrote re ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt)) > disagree You simply do not understand what this is about. From the header of your mail: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" under those conditions, TheBat! does not create nested HTML-Tables. So stop talking nonsense about things which are beyond your horizon, and stay put in your little box. People like you have made Facebook and Twitter great. Cheers, Lüko Willms Frankfurt am Main Germany using: TheBat! 8.8.2.8 (BETA) OS: Windows 7(NT 6.1 Build 7601 - Service Pack 1) CPU: AMD amd athlon(tm) 64 x2 dual core processor 4200+ MEM: 4097 MB 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt))
Lüko, > Hello everybody, > on Freitag, 12. Juli 2019 at 01:22 Maxim Masiutin via TBBETA > wrote > re The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt) > >> we are now working on version 9 >essential changes like these for proper quoting in HTML-Mails, more than > two years old: >1216: HTML viewer does not render BLOCKQUOTE >1217: While replying to an HTML message, quoting should > be done by BLOCKQUOTE, not by TABLE >Without this, TheBat! is not really useable for correspondence, > and not worth to be recommended to any one I care for. > >I would rather not want to pay for a new version 9, if those changes are > not implemented. This difference is important enough to me that I would reconsider Becky or Pegasus or some other client that handles quoting the way I need if The Bat were to change. The Mozilla way makes it difficult to read replied to email on the many clients that don't support it. On the other hand, Mozilla displays email quoted on The Bat with no problem. > > > Cheers, > Lüko Willms > Frankfurt am Main > Germany > using: TheBat! 8.8.2.8 (BETA) > OS: Windows 7(NT 6.1 Build 7601 - Service Pack 1) > CPU: AMD amd athlon(tm) 64 x2 dual core processor 4200+ > MEM: 4097 MB -- Gleason 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt))
Lüko, Hello everybody, on Freitag, 12. Juli 2019 at 01:22 Maxim Masiutin via TBBETA wrote re The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt) > we are now working on version 9 essential changes like these for proper quoting in HTML-Mails, more than two years old: 1216: HTML viewer does not render BLOCKQUOTE 1217: While replying to an HTML message, quoting should be done by BLOCKQUOTE, not by TABLE Without this, TheBat! is not really useable for correspondence, disagree. and not worth to be recommended to any one I care for. I would rather not want to pay for a new version 9, if those changes are not implemented. Cheers, Lüko Willms Frankfurt am Main Germany using: TheBat! 8.8.2.8 (BETA) OS: Windows 7(NT 6.1 Build 7601 - Service Pack 1) CPU: AMD amd athlon(tm) 64 x2 dual core processor 4200+ MEM: 4097 MB -- Gleason 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
