True Christianity? ...WAS ---- [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Chris, I won't *say* what the first principle of Zen is. But I'll say that, although everything changes at awakening, nonetheless, others will say about you that you are optimistic and positive, even as never before. You may not think so, but that goes with the territory, too, and if you can entertain ANY thought at all, well, that would be amazing: just TRY! ;-) --Joe ChrisAustinLane chris@... wrote: Isn't the first principal of Zen to abandon hope and optimism? What we have in front of us is our task. Any thought of it as good or bad (or getting better in the so-called future) takes us away from the glory of that task. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
True Christianity? ...WAS ---- [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Chris, Further on your question, I would say, No. The first principle of Zen is good posture. ;-) On your question, my teacher Sheng Yen also used to say, Keep your feet warm and your head cool. The physical is stressed -- There *is* no mind. I myself, personally, would say that it is not necessary to abandon ANYTHING. When it comes to sitting practice, what is important is simply to give all attention to the method of practice. Doing anything else -- like abandoning -- is doing something else! Stay with the method of practice and don't pick up other threads, whether positive threads or negative. Those other things will then not arise. Of course we have other practices besides the central practice of sitting. Again, and there, to give all attention to the practice is the way to be true to it. And we all know these things, I know. ;-) --Joe ChrisAustinLane chris@... wrote: Isn't the first principal of Zen to abandon hope and optimism? [snip] Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: True Christianity? ...WAS ---- [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
On Dec 26, 2012 10:26 PM, Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: Chris, Yes, at least in my understanding of the meaning of the word 'faith'. If someone slaps your face do you have to have 'faith' to experience the slap? If you bite into a lemon do you resort to 'faith' to experience the taste? To only experience the slap not adding a ton of extra stuff on top, would be a perfect example of faithful living. The lemon perhaps would be an example of grace.(We have very tasty lemons here in California, and they grow in our backyard). If I told you that biting into a lemon produces a taste that is very sour is that an 'assertion of life'? No. I didn't mean a verbal assertion, I meant hurling yourself into the task at hand rather than turn away holding onto what you prefer. And if you believe my assertion doesn't that only show faith in me and my ability to discriminate and describe? You still haven't tasted (experienced) the lemon. If you are told by eating wine and biscuits that have been blessed by a priest (transubstantiated)it would wash away all your sins - and you believe that is that 'faith'? And if you do eat them and it does wash away all your sins, what is that? Those words added to the experience of the mass are doctrine, not what people usually mean by living a faithful live. I will state quite confidentially that whole hearted (single pointed) worship can make a bit of difference in how free and good one feels, allowing one to leave behind some mental burdens. What is the meaning of 'faith' you are trying to convey? I wrote a long explanation earlier in some thread with Joe. Faith is not about thoughts but about fully and confidently picking up the task given to us, letting go of our will, not thinking of our preferences, just answering the call, faithfully. More along the lines of existential creation of meaning in the face of life's nature. I think the modern idea of scientific knowledge has rather confused our understanding here - in the absense of such reliable systems for understanding, one could focus on living faithfully and toss in a bunch of words that were understood to be true in some sense other than scientific truths. Now we have to be a bit cleaner in our understanding of what is knowable and what is not. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote: Even when faith is known as an assertion of life in the absence of any dualustic knowledge? On Dec 26, 2012 7:32 PM, Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Chris, Yes, we all sometimes do use words with different nuances to support our purposes - our rhetoric, but isn't that what they're for? What I am trying to say is the only thing we 'know' for certain is what we experience. All other 'beliefs', whether based on faith or something else is IMO uncertain - and what I would call illusory. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@ wrote: The certainty of non knowing perhaps but you are taking the word certainty without its normal meaning of just like I am doing with faith On Dec 25, 2012 1:51 AM, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Chris, We do find certainty in experience. At least I do...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@ wrote: Life is doubt. no where do we find certainty, not here and and not now Living is therefore an act of faith. each moment we float in this ocean, not knowing, but still here we are. this living is faith. Be not afraid, and may peace and goodwill flow within and around all of us. Merry Christmas! On Dec 24, 2012 8:58 AM, Joe desert_woodworker@ wrote: Bill!, You mention doubt. You know -- and I know you *DO* know this!, Bill! -- in our sect, Doubt is not disbelief, nor dubiousness. It is NOT the opposite pole from Faith. It bears no antagonism to Faith, neither cognitively nor organically: a sane mind and healthy body may entertain them both simultaneously. Your awakening is living proof of this! Instead, in Zen training as we know it, the doubt that we are ENCOURAGED to rely upon -- while working on a koan, say (and especially on the first one) -- is an intense desire to experience, ...an intense determination to have the koan open, to dissolve and reveal treasure. This desire that we employ is not doubt or dubiousness, or distrust of the sincerity of our teachers nor of our tradition nor tools. It is instead an intense spirit of QUESTIONING. As you say, before awakening, faith and doubt, or perhaps faith and a lack or weakness of faith, come in the dual pair just as any substantive idea does, or even as the pair
Re: True Christianity? ...WAS ---- [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
I am certainly not training in zen so people will speak well of me, nor to become a copy of the masters that brought the teaching to the US. If anything, I hope I will be more what I am meant to be, and that you will be more what you are meant to be. However, your words remind me of a truism of parenting: If some parent observes you and comments, You are so patient! then the odds are your subjective experience is of impatience - not responding with impatient actions or words to the feeling of impatience, but the feeling arising non the less. --Chris Thanks, --Chris ch...@austin-lane.net +1-301-270-6524 On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 6:58 AM, Joe desert_woodwor...@yahoo.com wrote: Chris, I won't *say* what the first principle of Zen is. But I'll say that, although everything changes at awakening, nonetheless, others will say about you that you are optimistic and positive, even as never before. You may not think so, but that goes with the territory, too, and if you can entertain ANY thought at all, well, that would be amazing: just TRY! ;-) --Joe ChrisAustinLane chris@... wrote: Isn't the first principal of Zen to abandon hope and optimism? What we have in front of us is our task. Any thought of it as good or bad (or getting better in the so-called future) takes us away from the glory of that task. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: True Christianity? ...WAS ---- [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Totally agree on the posture. I wish we could introduce a word body/mind to English usage. It is much more precise. The riff on giving up hope is my summary of a lot of Joko Beck's transcribed dharma talks in Nothing Special. -- e.g.: In talking about Sisyphus: What would be the enlightened state for King Sisyphus? If he pushes the rock a few thousand years, what may he finally realize? Just to push the rock and to have abandoned hope that his life will be other than it is. if we simply push our current boulder and practice being aware of what goes on with us as we push, we slowly transform. Thanks, --Chris ch...@austin-lane.net +1-301-270-6524 On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 9:25 AM, Joe desert_woodwor...@yahoo.com wrote: Chris, Further on your question, I would say, No. The first principle of Zen is good posture. ;-) On your question, my teacher Sheng Yen also used to say, Keep your feet warm and your head cool. The physical is stressed -- There *is* no mind. I myself, personally, would say that it is not necessary to abandon ANYTHING. When it comes to sitting practice, what is important is simply to give all attention to the method of practice. Doing anything else -- like abandoning -- is doing something else! Stay with the method of practice and don't pick up other threads, whether positive threads or negative. Those other things will then not arise. Of course we have other practices besides the central practice of sitting. Again, and there, to give all attention to the practice is the way to be true to it. And we all know these things, I know. ;-) --Joe ChrisAustinLane chris@... wrote: Isn't the first principal of Zen to abandon hope and optimism? [snip] Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
True Christianity? ...WAS ---- [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Chris, Heh-heh, of course not. But nonetheless, after awakening, family or friends or strangers may give you feedback or praise, which could lead to those thoughts, if you were capable of entertaining thoughts. Information may come from all sides, but it does not necessarily stick to us, and tells us more about others than about ourselves... about whom we have no doubt. ;-) --Joe Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote: I am certainly not training in zen so people will speak well of me, nor to become a copy of the masters that brought the teaching to the US. If anything, I hope I will be more what I am meant to be, and that you will be more what you are meant to be. However, your words remind me of a truism of parenting: If some parent observes you and comments, You are so patient! then the odds are your subjective experience is of impatience - not responding with impatient actions or words to the feeling of impatience, but the feeling arising non the less. On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 6:58 AM, Joe desert_woodworker@... wrote: Chris, I won't *say* what the first principle of Zen is. But I'll say that, although everything changes at awakening, nonetheless, others will say about you that you are optimistic and positive, even as never before. You may not think so, but that goes with the territory, too, and if you can entertain ANY thought at all, well, that would be amazing: just TRY! ;-) Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
True Christianity? ...WAS ---- [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Chris, In certain moods, maybe a more resonant Western classical figure is that of Odysseus. He was trying to keep alive each day, yes, but as much as or more than anything -- in addition to all his other efforts and exertions -- he was just trying to get Home! ;-) --Joe PS Funnily, another thing Shifu Sheng Yen used to say was, If you find yourself on a pirate ship, the best thing to do is be a Pirate! Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote: Totally agree on the posture. I wish we could introduce a word body/mind to English usage. It is much more precise. The riff on giving up hope is my summary of a lot of Joko Beck's transcribed dharma talks in Nothing Special. -- e.g.: In talking about Sisyphus: What would be the enlightened state for King Sisyphus? If he pushes the rock a few thousand years, what may he finally realize? Just to push the rock and to have abandoned hope that his life will be other than it is. if we simply push our current boulder and practice being aware of what goes on with us as we push, we slowly transform. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: True Christianity? ...WAS ---- [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
The certainty of non knowing perhaps but you are taking the word certainty without its normal meaning of just like I am doing with faith On Dec 25, 2012 1:51 AM, Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: Chris, We do find certainty in experience. At least I do...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote: Life is doubt. no where do we find certainty, not here and and not now Living is therefore an act of faith. each moment we float in this ocean, not knowing, but still here we are. this living is faith. Be not afraid, and may peace and goodwill flow within and around all of us. Merry Christmas! On Dec 24, 2012 8:58 AM, Joe desert_woodworker@... wrote: Bill!, You mention doubt. You know -- and I know you *DO* know this!, Bill! -- in our sect, Doubt is not disbelief, nor dubiousness. It is NOT the opposite pole from Faith. It bears no antagonism to Faith, neither cognitively nor organically: a sane mind and healthy body may entertain them both simultaneously. Your awakening is living proof of this! Instead, in Zen training as we know it, the doubt that we are ENCOURAGED to rely upon -- while working on a koan, say (and especially on the first one) -- is an intense desire to experience, ...an intense determination to have the koan open, to dissolve and reveal treasure. This desire that we employ is not doubt or dubiousness, or distrust of the sincerity of our teachers nor of our tradition nor tools. It is instead an intense spirit of QUESTIONING. As you say, before awakening, faith and doubt, or perhaps faith and a lack or weakness of faith, come in the dual pair just as any substantive idea does, or even as the pair existence and non-existence does. But, again, in our training, faith and determination are not opposites. At awakening and after awakening there are no categories, and names cannot be grasped, but the flavor of things is there, as one bright display or manifestation of the mind; nothing remains and nothing leaves any residue, and we catch onto no snags. But let's leave that aside. ;-) Faith, determination, doubt and disbelief do not arise. Now, because multiple awakenings are possible, faith can again be helpful as a tool, a familiar one. Thus, to encourage yet again subsequent awakenings, that faith, plus determination or a strong spirit of questioning, coupled to a strong practice, can move illusory mountains and put them in their proper heaven, and sink any ship you like, Yes. Torpedos away! --Joe PS (speaking of gift-wrapped, Feliz Navidad!, from the deep Southwest). Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Joe, What you say is true, but where you have faith you also have doubt. They come in the same gift-wrapped, illusory dualistic set. Faith can indeed move mountains, but doubt can sink ships. ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
True Christianity? ...WAS ---- [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Chris, Yes, we all sometimes do use words with different nuances to support our purposes - our rhetoric, but isn't that what they're for? What I am trying to say is the only thing we 'know' for certain is what we experience. All other 'beliefs', whether based on faith or something else is IMO uncertain - and what I would call illusory. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote: The certainty of non knowing perhaps but you are taking the word certainty without its normal meaning of just like I am doing with faith On Dec 25, 2012 1:51 AM, Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Chris, We do find certainty in experience. At least I do...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@ wrote: Life is doubt. no where do we find certainty, not here and and not now Living is therefore an act of faith. each moment we float in this ocean, not knowing, but still here we are. this living is faith. Be not afraid, and may peace and goodwill flow within and around all of us. Merry Christmas! On Dec 24, 2012 8:58 AM, Joe desert_woodworker@ wrote: Bill!, You mention doubt. You know -- and I know you *DO* know this!, Bill! -- in our sect, Doubt is not disbelief, nor dubiousness. It is NOT the opposite pole from Faith. It bears no antagonism to Faith, neither cognitively nor organically: a sane mind and healthy body may entertain them both simultaneously. Your awakening is living proof of this! Instead, in Zen training as we know it, the doubt that we are ENCOURAGED to rely upon -- while working on a koan, say (and especially on the first one) -- is an intense desire to experience, ...an intense determination to have the koan open, to dissolve and reveal treasure. This desire that we employ is not doubt or dubiousness, or distrust of the sincerity of our teachers nor of our tradition nor tools. It is instead an intense spirit of QUESTIONING. As you say, before awakening, faith and doubt, or perhaps faith and a lack or weakness of faith, come in the dual pair just as any substantive idea does, or even as the pair existence and non-existence does. But, again, in our training, faith and determination are not opposites. At awakening and after awakening there are no categories, and names cannot be grasped, but the flavor of things is there, as one bright display or manifestation of the mind; nothing remains and nothing leaves any residue, and we catch onto no snags. But let's leave that aside. ;-) Faith, determination, doubt and disbelief do not arise. Now, because multiple awakenings are possible, faith can again be helpful as a tool, a familiar one. Thus, to encourage yet again subsequent awakenings, that faith, plus determination or a strong spirit of questioning, coupled to a strong practice, can move illusory mountains and put them in their proper heaven, and sink any ship you like, Yes. Torpedos away! --Joe PS (speaking of gift-wrapped, Feliz Navidad!, from the deep Southwest). Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Joe, What you say is true, but where you have faith you also have doubt. They come in the same gift-wrapped, illusory dualistic set. Faith can indeed move mountains, but doubt can sink ships. ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: True Christianity? ...WAS ---- [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Even when faith is known as an assertion of life in the absence of any dualustic knowledge? On Dec 26, 2012 7:32 PM, Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: Chris, Yes, we all sometimes do use words with different nuances to support our purposes - our rhetoric, but isn't that what they're for? What I am trying to say is the only thing we 'know' for certain is what we experience. All other 'beliefs', whether based on faith or something else is IMO uncertain - and what I would call illusory. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote: The certainty of non knowing perhaps but you are taking the word certainty without its normal meaning of just like I am doing with faith On Dec 25, 2012 1:51 AM, Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Chris, We do find certainty in experience. At least I do...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@ wrote: Life is doubt. no where do we find certainty, not here and and not now Living is therefore an act of faith. each moment we float in this ocean, not knowing, but still here we are. this living is faith. Be not afraid, and may peace and goodwill flow within and around all of us. Merry Christmas! On Dec 24, 2012 8:58 AM, Joe desert_woodworker@ wrote: Bill!, You mention doubt. You know -- and I know you *DO* know this!, Bill! -- in our sect, Doubt is not disbelief, nor dubiousness. It is NOT the opposite pole from Faith. It bears no antagonism to Faith, neither cognitively nor organically: a sane mind and healthy body may entertain them both simultaneously. Your awakening is living proof of this! Instead, in Zen training as we know it, the doubt that we are ENCOURAGED to rely upon -- while working on a koan, say (and especially on the first one) -- is an intense desire to experience, ...an intense determination to have the koan open, to dissolve and reveal treasure. This desire that we employ is not doubt or dubiousness, or distrust of the sincerity of our teachers nor of our tradition nor tools. It is instead an intense spirit of QUESTIONING. As you say, before awakening, faith and doubt, or perhaps faith and a lack or weakness of faith, come in the dual pair just as any substantive idea does, or even as the pair existence and non-existence does. But, again, in our training, faith and determination are not opposites. At awakening and after awakening there are no categories, and names cannot be grasped, but the flavor of things is there, as one bright display or manifestation of the mind; nothing remains and nothing leaves any residue, and we catch onto no snags. But let's leave that aside. ;-) Faith, determination, doubt and disbelief do not arise. Now, because multiple awakenings are possible, faith can again be helpful as a tool, a familiar one. Thus, to encourage yet again subsequent awakenings, that faith, plus determination or a strong spirit of questioning, coupled to a strong practice, can move illusory mountains and put them in their proper heaven, and sink any ship you like, Yes. Torpedos away! --Joe PS (speaking of gift-wrapped, Feliz Navidad!, from the deep Southwest). Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Joe, What you say is true, but where you have faith you also have doubt. They come in the same gift-wrapped, illusory dualistic set. Faith can indeed move mountains, but doubt can sink ships. ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
True Christianity? ...WAS ---- [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Chris, I'm over-tired here, and not willing to think much, but it occurs to me that, in some ways, faith is a bit like optimism. Pessimism is a jadedness which is born of (too much) experience. ;-) I'm optimistic about sleep doing me plenty of good, and about tomorrow; and, pessimistic about my ability to keep my eyes open much longer tonight. What a long day! --Joe Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote: Even when faith is known as an assertion of life in the absence of any dualustic knowledge? On Dec 26, 2012 7:32 PM, Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Chris, Yes, we all sometimes do use words with different nuances to support our purposes - our rhetoric, but isn't that what they're for? What I am trying to say is the only thing we 'know' for certain is what we experience. All other 'beliefs', whether based on faith or something else is IMO uncertain - and what I would call illusory. ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: True Christianity? ...WAS ---- [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Isn't the first principal of Zen to abandon hope and optimism? What we have in front of us is our task. Any thought of it as good or bad (or getting better in the so-called future) takes us away from the glory of that task. Thanks, Chris Austin-Lane Sent from a cell phone On Dec 26, 2012, at 22:12, Joe desert_woodwor...@yahoo.com wrote: Chris, I'm over-tired here, and not willing to think much, but it occurs to me that, in some ways, faith is a bit like optimism. Pessimism is a jadedness which is born of (too much) experience. ;-) I'm optimistic about sleep doing me plenty of good, and about tomorrow; and, pessimistic about my ability to keep my eyes open much longer tonight. What a long day! --Joe Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote: Even when faith is known as an assertion of life in the absence of any dualustic knowledge? On Dec 26, 2012 7:32 PM, Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Chris, Yes, we all sometimes do use words with different nuances to support our purposes - our rhetoric, but isn't that what they're for? What I am trying to say is the only thing we 'know' for certain is what we experience. All other 'beliefs', whether based on faith or something else is IMO uncertain - and what I would call illusory. ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
True Christianity? ...WAS ---- [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Chris, Yes, at least in my understanding of the meaning of the word 'faith'. If someone slaps your face do you have to have 'faith' to experience the slap? If you bite into a lemon do you resort to 'faith' to experience the taste? If I told you that biting into a lemon produces a taste that is very sour is that an 'assertion of life'? And if you believe my assertion doesn't that only show faith in me and my ability to discriminate and describe? You still haven't tasted (experienced) the lemon. If you are told by eating wine and biscuits that have been blessed by a priest (transubstantiated)it would wash away all your sins - and you believe that is that 'faith'? And if you do eat them and it does wash away all your sins, what is that? What is the meaning of 'faith' you are trying to convey? ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote: Even when faith is known as an assertion of life in the absence of any dualustic knowledge? On Dec 26, 2012 7:32 PM, Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Chris, Yes, we all sometimes do use words with different nuances to support our purposes - our rhetoric, but isn't that what they're for? What I am trying to say is the only thing we 'know' for certain is what we experience. All other 'beliefs', whether based on faith or something else is IMO uncertain - and what I would call illusory. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@ wrote: The certainty of non knowing perhaps but you are taking the word certainty without its normal meaning of just like I am doing with faith On Dec 25, 2012 1:51 AM, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Chris, We do find certainty in experience. At least I do...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@ wrote: Life is doubt. no where do we find certainty, not here and and not now Living is therefore an act of faith. each moment we float in this ocean, not knowing, but still here we are. this living is faith. Be not afraid, and may peace and goodwill flow within and around all of us. Merry Christmas! On Dec 24, 2012 8:58 AM, Joe desert_woodworker@ wrote: Bill!, You mention doubt. You know -- and I know you *DO* know this!, Bill! -- in our sect, Doubt is not disbelief, nor dubiousness. It is NOT the opposite pole from Faith. It bears no antagonism to Faith, neither cognitively nor organically: a sane mind and healthy body may entertain them both simultaneously. Your awakening is living proof of this! Instead, in Zen training as we know it, the doubt that we are ENCOURAGED to rely upon -- while working on a koan, say (and especially on the first one) -- is an intense desire to experience, ...an intense determination to have the koan open, to dissolve and reveal treasure. This desire that we employ is not doubt or dubiousness, or distrust of the sincerity of our teachers nor of our tradition nor tools. It is instead an intense spirit of QUESTIONING. As you say, before awakening, faith and doubt, or perhaps faith and a lack or weakness of faith, come in the dual pair just as any substantive idea does, or even as the pair existence and non-existence does. But, again, in our training, faith and determination are not opposites. At awakening and after awakening there are no categories, and names cannot be grasped, but the flavor of things is there, as one bright display or manifestation of the mind; nothing remains and nothing leaves any residue, and we catch onto no snags. But let's leave that aside. ;-) Faith, determination, doubt and disbelief do not arise. Now, because multiple awakenings are possible, faith can again be helpful as a tool, a familiar one. Thus, to encourage yet again subsequent awakenings, that faith, plus determination or a strong spirit of questioning, coupled to a strong practice, can move illusory mountains and put them in their proper heaven, and sink any ship you like, Yes. Torpedos away! --Joe PS (speaking of gift-wrapped, Feliz Navidad!, from the deep Southwest). Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Joe, What you say is true, but where you have faith you also have doubt. They come in the same gift-wrapped, illusory dualistic set. Faith can indeed move mountains, but doubt can sink ships. ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
True Christianity? ...WAS ---- [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Chris, Yes, I agree with you. We abandon all dualism. We abandon hope as well as despair. We abandon optimism as well as pessimism. We abandon good as well as bad. We are - and if you read this as 'self' then 'we aren't'. We act and we don't act. We do and we don't. Always, Just THIS! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, ChrisAustinLane chris@... wrote: Isn't the first principal of Zen to abandon hope and optimism? What we have in front of us is our task. Any thought of it as good or bad (or getting better in the so-called future) takes us away from the glory of that task. Thanks, Chris Austin-Lane Sent from a cell phone On Dec 26, 2012, at 22:12, Joe desert_woodworker@... wrote: Chris, I'm over-tired here, and not willing to think much, but it occurs to me that, in some ways, faith is a bit like optimism. Pessimism is a jadedness which is born of (too much) experience. ;-) I'm optimistic about sleep doing me plenty of good, and about tomorrow; and, pessimistic about my ability to keep my eyes open much longer tonight. What a long day! --Joe Chris Austin-Lane chris@ wrote: Even when faith is known as an assertion of life in the absence of any dualustic knowledge? On Dec 26, 2012 7:32 PM, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Chris, Yes, we all sometimes do use words with different nuances to support our purposes - our rhetoric, but isn't that what they're for? What I am trying to say is the only thing we 'know' for certain is what we experience. All other 'beliefs', whether based on faith or something else is IMO uncertain - and what I would call illusory. ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: True Christianity? ...WAS ---- [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
bill/// it's ying and yang..and that is the way of the world..merle Yes, I agree with you. We abandon all dualism. We abandon hope as well as despair. We abandon optimism as well as pessimism. We abandon good as well as bad. We are - and if you read this as 'self' then 'we aren't'. We act and we don't act. We do and we don't. Always, Just THIS! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, ChrisAustinLane chris@... wrote: Isn't the first principal of Zen to abandon hope and optimism? What we have in front of us is our task. Any thought of it as good or bad (or getting better in the so-called future) takes us away from the glory of that task. Thanks, Chris Austin-Lane Sent from a cell phone On Dec 26, 2012, at 22:12, Joe desert_woodworker@... wrote: Chris, I'm over-tired here, and not willing to think much, but it occurs to me that, in some ways, faith is a bit like optimism. Pessimism is a jadedness which is born of (too much) experience. ;-) I'm optimistic about sleep doing me plenty of good, and about tomorrow; and, pessimistic about my ability to keep my eyes open much longer tonight. What a long day! --Joe Chris Austin-Lane chris@ wrote: Even when faith is known as an assertion of life in the absence of any dualustic knowledge? On Dec 26, 2012 7:32 PM, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Chris, Yes, we all sometimes do use words with different nuances to support our purposes - our rhetoric, but isn't that what they're for? What I am trying to say is the only thing we 'know' for certain is what we experience. All other 'beliefs', whether based on faith or something else is IMO uncertain - and what I would call illusory. ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: True Christianity? ...WAS ---- [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
judge thee not joe just experience!... merle Chris, I'm over-tired here, and not willing to think much, but it occurs to me that, in some ways, faith is a bit like optimism. Pessimism is a jadedness which is born of (too much) experience. ;-) I'm optimistic about sleep doing me plenty of good, and about tomorrow; and, pessimistic about my ability to keep my eyes open much longer tonight. What a long day! --Joe Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote: Even when faith is known as an assertion of life in the absence of any dualustic knowledge? On Dec 26, 2012 7:32 PM, Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Chris, Yes, we all sometimes do use words with different nuances to support our purposes - our rhetoric, but isn't that what they're for? What I am trying to say is the only thing we 'know' for certain is what we experience. All other 'beliefs', whether based on faith or something else is IMO uncertain - and what I would call illusory. ...Bill!
True Christianity? ...WAS ---- [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Joe, I do put 'doubt' and 'faith' in the same category. Faith is belief, doubt is disbelief. 'Questioning', which you appropriately point out is important in some teaching schools (it was in mine), if neither belief or disbelief - it's 'don't know'. That's the way it looks from here anyway...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Joe desert_woodworker@... wrote: Bill!, You mention doubt. You know -- and I know you *DO* know this!, Bill! -- in our sect, Doubt is not disbelief, nor dubiousness. It is NOT the opposite pole from Faith. It bears no antagonism to Faith, neither cognitively nor organically: a sane mind and healthy body may entertain them both simultaneously. Your awakening is living proof of this! Instead, in Zen training as we know it, the doubt that we are ENCOURAGED to rely upon -- while working on a koan, say (and especially on the first one) -- is an intense desire to experience, ...an intense determination to have the koan open, to dissolve and reveal treasure. This desire that we employ is not doubt or dubiousness, or distrust of the sincerity of our teachers nor of our tradition nor tools. It is instead an intense spirit of QUESTIONING. As you say, before awakening, faith and doubt, or perhaps faith and a lack or weakness of faith, come in the dual pair just as any substantive idea does, or even as the pair existence and non-existence does. But, again, in our training, faith and determination are not opposites. At awakening and after awakening there are no categories, and names cannot be grasped, but the flavor of things is there, as one bright display or manifestation of the mind; nothing remains and nothing leaves any residue, and we catch onto no snags. But let's leave that aside. ;-) Faith, determination, doubt and disbelief do not arise. Now, because multiple awakenings are possible, faith can again be helpful as a tool, a familiar one. Thus, to encourage yet again subsequent awakenings, that faith, plus determination or a strong spirit of questioning, coupled to a strong practice, can move illusory mountains and put them in their proper heaven, and sink any ship you like, Yes. Torpedos away! --Joe PS (speaking of gift-wrapped, Feliz Navidad!, from the deep Southwest). Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Joe, What you say is true, but where you have faith you also have doubt. They come in the same gift-wrapped, illusory dualistic set. Faith can indeed move mountains, but doubt can sink ships. ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
True Christianity? ...WAS ---- [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Chris, We do find certainty in experience. At least I do...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote: Life is doubt. no where do we find certainty, not here and and not now Living is therefore an act of faith. each moment we float in this ocean, not knowing, but still here we are. this living is faith. Be not afraid, and may peace and goodwill flow within and around all of us. Merry Christmas! On Dec 24, 2012 8:58 AM, Joe desert_woodworker@... wrote: Bill!, You mention doubt. You know -- and I know you *DO* know this!, Bill! -- in our sect, Doubt is not disbelief, nor dubiousness. It is NOT the opposite pole from Faith. It bears no antagonism to Faith, neither cognitively nor organically: a sane mind and healthy body may entertain them both simultaneously. Your awakening is living proof of this! Instead, in Zen training as we know it, the doubt that we are ENCOURAGED to rely upon -- while working on a koan, say (and especially on the first one) -- is an intense desire to experience, ...an intense determination to have the koan open, to dissolve and reveal treasure. This desire that we employ is not doubt or dubiousness, or distrust of the sincerity of our teachers nor of our tradition nor tools. It is instead an intense spirit of QUESTIONING. As you say, before awakening, faith and doubt, or perhaps faith and a lack or weakness of faith, come in the dual pair just as any substantive idea does, or even as the pair existence and non-existence does. But, again, in our training, faith and determination are not opposites. At awakening and after awakening there are no categories, and names cannot be grasped, but the flavor of things is there, as one bright display or manifestation of the mind; nothing remains and nothing leaves any residue, and we catch onto no snags. But let's leave that aside. ;-) Faith, determination, doubt and disbelief do not arise. Now, because multiple awakenings are possible, faith can again be helpful as a tool, a familiar one. Thus, to encourage yet again subsequent awakenings, that faith, plus determination or a strong spirit of questioning, coupled to a strong practice, can move illusory mountains and put them in their proper heaven, and sink any ship you like, Yes. Torpedos away! --Joe PS (speaking of gift-wrapped, Feliz Navidad!, from the deep Southwest). Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Joe, What you say is true, but where you have faith you also have doubt. They come in the same gift-wrapped, illusory dualistic set. Faith can indeed move mountains, but doubt can sink ships. ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
True Christianity? ...WAS ---- [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Joe, What you say is true, but where you have faith you also have doubt. They come in the same gift-wrapped, illusory dualistic set. Faith can indeed move mountains, but doubt can sink ships. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Joe desert_woodworker@... wrote: Bill!, Oh, yes, and don't get me wrong. I understand that, and you are very clear. When I say that faith can emerge and be helpful even more than once, I also speak from experience. Just a heads up (not necessarily to you, but to anyone) that this is a possibility, because it has happened. But I also want to mention that, before one's awakening, our idea of faith is really very much like an idea (even if we apply it). After awakening, we can view faith more as if from the inside, and can see how it really functions. It's not miraculous, but wonderful. And not merely wonderful, because it is in fact an actual wonder. I resist the temptation to use any more exact or extensive language than this, and in fact I let it go at that, and at this. With best greetings!, --Joe Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Joe, I stated in recent previous post that faith does/may have a place in the beginning of zen practice before realization of Buddha Nature. It did in my practice. Before the realization of Buddha Nature I believed what my teachers were saying about Buddha Nature and my ability to realize it was true. That kept me going, among other things. This was a belief not founded on experience. It was faith. After realizing Buddha Nature that belief based on faith was replaced with experience. ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
True Christianity? ...WAS ---- [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Bill!, You mention doubt. You know -- and I know you *DO* know this!, Bill! -- in our sect, Doubt is not disbelief, nor dubiousness. It is NOT the opposite pole from Faith. It bears no antagonism to Faith, neither cognitively nor organically: a sane mind and healthy body may entertain them both simultaneously. Your awakening is living proof of this! Instead, in Zen training as we know it, the doubt that we are ENCOURAGED to rely upon -- while working on a koan, say (and especially on the first one) -- is an intense desire to experience, ...an intense determination to have the koan open, to dissolve and reveal treasure. This desire that we employ is not doubt or dubiousness, or distrust of the sincerity of our teachers nor of our tradition nor tools. It is instead an intense spirit of QUESTIONING. As you say, before awakening, faith and doubt, or perhaps faith and a lack or weakness of faith, come in the dual pair just as any substantive idea does, or even as the pair existence and non-existence does. But, again, in our training, faith and determination are not opposites. At awakening and after awakening there are no categories, and names cannot be grasped, but the flavor of things is there, as one bright display or manifestation of the mind; nothing remains and nothing leaves any residue, and we catch onto no snags. But let's leave that aside. ;-) Faith, determination, doubt and disbelief do not arise. Now, because multiple awakenings are possible, faith can again be helpful as a tool, a familiar one. Thus, to encourage yet again subsequent awakenings, that faith, plus determination or a strong spirit of questioning, coupled to a strong practice, can move illusory mountains and put them in their proper heaven, and sink any ship you like, Yes. Torpedos away! --Joe PS (speaking of gift-wrapped, Feliz Navidad!, from the deep Southwest). Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Joe, What you say is true, but where you have faith you also have doubt. They come in the same gift-wrapped, illusory dualistic set. Faith can indeed move mountains, but doubt can sink ships. ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: True Christianity? ...WAS ---- [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Life is doubt. no where do we find certainty, not here and and not now Living is therefore an act of faith. each moment we float in this ocean, not knowing, but still here we are. this living is faith. Be not afraid, and may peace and goodwill flow within and around all of us. Merry Christmas! On Dec 24, 2012 8:58 AM, Joe desert_woodwor...@yahoo.com wrote: Bill!, You mention doubt. You know -- and I know you *DO* know this!, Bill! -- in our sect, Doubt is not disbelief, nor dubiousness. It is NOT the opposite pole from Faith. It bears no antagonism to Faith, neither cognitively nor organically: a sane mind and healthy body may entertain them both simultaneously. Your awakening is living proof of this! Instead, in Zen training as we know it, the doubt that we are ENCOURAGED to rely upon -- while working on a koan, say (and especially on the first one) -- is an intense desire to experience, ...an intense determination to have the koan open, to dissolve and reveal treasure. This desire that we employ is not doubt or dubiousness, or distrust of the sincerity of our teachers nor of our tradition nor tools. It is instead an intense spirit of QUESTIONING. As you say, before awakening, faith and doubt, or perhaps faith and a lack or weakness of faith, come in the dual pair just as any substantive idea does, or even as the pair existence and non-existence does. But, again, in our training, faith and determination are not opposites. At awakening and after awakening there are no categories, and names cannot be grasped, but the flavor of things is there, as one bright display or manifestation of the mind; nothing remains and nothing leaves any residue, and we catch onto no snags. But let's leave that aside. ;-) Faith, determination, doubt and disbelief do not arise. Now, because multiple awakenings are possible, faith can again be helpful as a tool, a familiar one. Thus, to encourage yet again subsequent awakenings, that faith, plus determination or a strong spirit of questioning, coupled to a strong practice, can move illusory mountains and put them in their proper heaven, and sink any ship you like, Yes. Torpedos away! --Joe PS (speaking of gift-wrapped, Feliz Navidad!, from the deep Southwest). Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Joe, What you say is true, but where you have faith you also have doubt. They come in the same gift-wrapped, illusory dualistic set. Faith can indeed move mountains, but doubt can sink ships. ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
True Christianity? ...WAS ---- [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Zendervish, Faith is not a belief based on experience. If it is it's not faith, it's experience. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, salik888 novelidea8@... wrote: Well, if you have to think about faith or no faith this much there is probably not much inight into just how faith moves . . . there really is no way of defining faith, or refuting . . . much like Zen, it is an experiential mystery that has many faces. We could just call it, 'catching my groove'. zendervish --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Joe desert_woodworker@ wrote: Bill!, Zendervish, Bill, would you we willing to consider that there is an aspect of faith which is like trust? Trust, like faith, is often not simply blind, but is earned; it is developed. I won't flesh that out. Also, in all sorts of empirical situations, we humans rely on Induction; Philosopher David Hume spent some time on that matter in his TREATISE OF HUMAN NATURE. For example, each day in the past, the sun has risen in the East and set in the West: will it happen again tomorrow? Hume writes that we have a sort of compulsion, a psychological proclivity, to suppose that it will. Is this proclivity dependent on a faith, or a trust? Mind you, here's an empirical situation: a matter of fact, it's called. We don't know in advance if the sun will rise; but, ...we have a faith or a trust that it will? It would seem our lives are based on a very shaky kind of certainty! Granted, our expectation of the sun's behavior is based on our observation of how it has appeared to behave in the past, and on our memory of that behavior. Is it *reasonable* for us to assume or expect that it will behave again as it has in the past? Or, is this a faith of ours? A trust? If the latter two, are faith and trust reasonable? And, then, is not this faith solidly based on empirical observation and upon our conditioning by empirical, factual information? This is not blind faith: this is the kind of faith one has even in Buddha Nature after one has realized it. It is a faith lived from the inside, not the outside, and it is very solid. It continues, and itself has a life, and a career. To give this faith or this trust a mechanical-sounding name like induction, or the workings of induction, does not shift the origins of our expectation of sunrise to something outside of ourselves, and make it a part of a corpus of knowledge that has something more to do with Physics than with us. It's ALL our doing! And I don't mean that in some sort of spooky way. I agree with Hume's notion that it is psychological, in the broad sense he employs. I'll leave this open-ended, because I do not know how to close it. ;-) --Joe Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Zendervish, IMO, and as I use these terms... 'Belief' is a condition of the mind that categorizes something as true or real. 'Faith' is a type of belief that has no experiential, scientific or logical foundation. I think these definitions are pretty much the same as the ones you gave in the 3rd and 4th paragraphs of your post below. Both belief and faith are helpful and maybe even necessary in the early phases of zen practice. They were in mine. After realizing Buddha Nature faith no long plays any part in zen practice - at least not in mine. ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
True Christianity? ...WAS ---- [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Joe, You are certainly correct that the words/concepts of belief, faith and trust are generally co-mingled. I certainly sometimes use them interchangeably when really I shouldn't. The are related but are different words because they describe different things; or at least different nuances of very similar things. I have read parts of some of the writings you cited but these have to do with Buddhism which is a religion and therefore based on faith, or philosophy which is based on logic. Zen is not a religion and is based neither on faith or logic but on experience. Again, all this is IMO... ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Joe desert_woodworker@... wrote: Bill!, I bring in the other word, trust because I think that, as many of us use the words belief and faith, we are leaning toward and meaning something more like trust, and reliance. I think that belief and faith -- as used in their more strict dictionary sense(s) -- when used, say, by a young (or proselytizing) religionist, are most often the naive emotions of a juvenile practitioner, or are presented for a young newcomer to latch on to and use as tools. After one has some experience, particularly, a turnabout experience or episode, but not limited to that, one may still respond to and rely upon the mysterious elements of life as a *source* of life, and of light. When one regards them, one feels wonder, respect, awe, participation, and responsibility. As one further regards them, one feels, I'd say, faith and trust. Again, this is not blind faith! It is based on experience and the most intimate sort of knowledge, more akin to being, one's being, once it becomes clarified or simplified to its essential. Translations sometime fail us when we read records of awakened teachers and philosophers, and their teachings. For example, I think immediately of two works in Buddhism, one by a Ch'an master, and one by and great Indian Buddhist practitioner and Philsopher. You are probably already very well familiar with the Ch'an work: the Hsin Hsin Ming (FAITH IN MIND). And, attributed to Asvaghosha, THE AWAKENING OF FAITH IN THE MAHAYANA, which was originally written in Sanskrit, then translated to Chinese in 550 AD, and following this the Sanskrit version was lost. He treats four faiths and five practices. There is faith in: The Ultimate Source of things; in the Buddhas; in the Dharma; and in the Sangha. Another way to say this is faith in Buddha Nature, and in the Three Jewels, or Three Treasures, or Gems. Well, one might question whether these faiths persist, mutate, evolve, or disappear after awakening (or, at least, after one's first awakening). I suppose it varies with causes and conditions! --Joe Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Of course both belief and faith have a component of trust. My distinction is just that faith is a type of belief that has no experiential, scientific or logical foundation. Trust can be well- or ill-founded. Hume's 'will the sun rise again tomorrow' is a good example. Whether you consider the answer to that (belief) something based on faith or not could be debated. I say it is. In any event the question of whether or not the sun will rise again tomorrow has nothing to do with zen practice. ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
True Christianity? ...WAS ---- [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Bill!, In fact, Asvaghosha's, THE AWAKENING OF FAITH IN THE MAHAYANA, is addressed to people Who have not yet joined the group of beings who are determined to attain enlightenment (from Part 4: On Faith and Practice). Now, what about after the practitioner himself/herself awakens? Does faith disappear, as all other things do? Yes. But it's like when the skin of an onion is removed, and there are thicker, less hardened, layers beneath. The One goes by many names. Emptiness is nameless; but the center of the onion is everywhere throughout the onion, and so is its taste. Layers of the onion dry out and form a new skin. Every subsequent awakening can give credit to a faith, in order to get down deeper. Does faith ever disappear, or disappear for long? I think it's faith, all the way down. To the center of the onion, anyway, ...which is everywhere. One awakening does not kill-off or ever prevent the re-emergence of faith. Just a point of information, from experience, for those interested! ;-) --Joe PS Cheese and Green-Onion omelet here this morning: no skin to have to peel. Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Joe, You are certainly correct that the words/concepts of belief, faith and trust are generally co-mingled. I certainly sometimes use them interchangeably when really I shouldn't. The are related but are different words because they describe different things; or at least different nuances of very similar things. I have read parts of some of the writings you cited but these have to do with Buddhism which is a religion and therefore based on faith, or philosophy which is based on logic. Zen is not a religion and is based neither on faith or logic but on experience. Again, all this is IMO... Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
True Christianity? ...WAS ---- [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Joe, I stated in recent previous post that faith does/may have a place in the beginning of zen practice before realization of Buddha Nature. It did in my practice. Before the realization of Buddha Nature I believed what my teachers were saying about Buddha Nature and my ability to realize it was true. That kept me going, among other things. This was a belief not founded on experience. It was faith. After realizing Buddha Nature that belief based on faith was replaced with experience. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Joe desert_woodworker@... wrote: Bill!, In fact, Asvaghosha's, THE AWAKENING OF FAITH IN THE MAHAYANA, is addressed to people Who have not yet joined the group of beings who are determined to attain enlightenment (from Part 4: On Faith and Practice). Now, what about after the practitioner himself/herself awakens? Does faith disappear, as all other things do? Yes. But it's like when the skin of an onion is removed, and there are thicker, less hardened, layers beneath. The One goes by many names. Emptiness is nameless; but the center of the onion is everywhere throughout the onion, and so is its taste. Layers of the onion dry out and form a new skin. Every subsequent awakening can give credit to a faith, in order to get down deeper. Does faith ever disappear, or disappear for long? I think it's faith, all the way down. To the center of the onion, anyway, ...which is everywhere. One awakening does not kill-off or ever prevent the re-emergence of faith. Just a point of information, from experience, for those interested! ;-) --Joe PS Cheese and Green-Onion omelet here this morning: no skin to have to peel. Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Joe, You are certainly correct that the words/concepts of belief, faith and trust are generally co-mingled. I certainly sometimes use them interchangeably when really I shouldn't. The are related but are different words because they describe different things; or at least different nuances of very similar things. I have read parts of some of the writings you cited but these have to do with Buddhism which is a religion and therefore based on faith, or philosophy which is based on logic. Zen is not a religion and is based neither on faith or logic but on experience. Again, all this is IMO... Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
True Christianity? ...WAS ---- [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Bill!, Oh, yes, and don't get me wrong. I understand that, and you are very clear. When I say that faith can emerge and be helpful even more than once, I also speak from experience. Just a heads up (not necessarily to you, but to anyone) that this is a possibility, because it has happened. But I also want to mention that, before one's awakening, our idea of faith is really very much like an idea (even if we apply it). After awakening, we can view faith more as if from the inside, and can see how it really functions. It's not miraculous, but wonderful. And not merely wonderful, because it is in fact an actual wonder. I resist the temptation to use any more exact or extensive language than this, and in fact I let it go at that, and at this. With best greetings!, --Joe Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Joe, I stated in recent previous post that faith does/may have a place in the beginning of zen practice before realization of Buddha Nature. It did in my practice. Before the realization of Buddha Nature I believed what my teachers were saying about Buddha Nature and my ability to realize it was true. That kept me going, among other things. This was a belief not founded on experience. It was faith. After realizing Buddha Nature that belief based on faith was replaced with experience. ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
True Christianity? ...WAS ---- [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Bill!, I bring in the other word, trust because I think that, as many of us use the words belief and faith, we are leaning toward and meaning something more like trust, and reliance. I think that belief and faith -- as used in their more strict dictionary sense(s) -- when used, say, by a young (or proselytizing) religionist, are most often the naive emotions of a juvenile practitioner, or are presented for a young newcomer to latch on to and use as tools. After one has some experience, particularly, a turnabout experience or episode, but not limited to that, one may still respond to and rely upon the mysterious elements of life as a *source* of life, and of light. When one regards them, one feels wonder, respect, awe, participation, and responsibility. As one further regards them, one feels, I'd say, faith and trust. Again, this is not blind faith! It is based on experience and the most intimate sort of knowledge, more akin to being, one's being, once it becomes clarified or simplified to its essential. Translations sometime fail us when we read records of awakened teachers and philosophers, and their teachings. For example, I think immediately of two works in Buddhism, one by a Ch'an master, and one by and great Indian Buddhist practitioner and Philsopher. You are probably already very well familiar with the Ch'an work: the Hsin Hsin Ming (FAITH IN MIND). And, attributed to Asvaghosha, THE AWAKENING OF FAITH IN THE MAHAYANA, which was originally written in Sanskrit, then translated to Chinese in 550 AD, and following this the Sanskrit version was lost. He treats four faiths and five practices. There is faith in: The Ultimate Source of things; in the Buddhas; in the Dharma; and in the Sangha. Another way to say this is faith in Buddha Nature, and in the Three Jewels, or Three Treasures, or Gems. Well, one might question whether these faiths persist, mutate, evolve, or disappear after awakening (or, at least, after one's first awakening). I suppose it varies with causes and conditions! --Joe Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Of course both belief and faith have a component of trust. My distinction is just that faith is a type of belief that has no experiential, scientific or logical foundation. Trust can be well- or ill-founded. Hume's 'will the sun rise again tomorrow' is a good example. Whether you consider the answer to that (belief) something based on faith or not could be debated. I say it is. In any event the question of whether or not the sun will rise again tomorrow has nothing to do with zen practice. ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
True Christianity? ...WAS ---- [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Zendervish, IMO, and as I use these terms... 'Belief' is a condition of the mind that categorizes something as true or real. 'Faith' is a type of belief that has no experiential, scientific or logical foundation. I think these definitions are pretty much the same as the ones you gave in the 3rd and 4th paragraphs of your post below. Both belief and faith are helpful and maybe even necessary in the early phases of zen practice. They were in mine. After realizing Buddha Nature faith no long plays any part in zen practice - at least not in mine. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, salik888 novelidea8@... wrote: Dear Bill Well, we are back to faith and belief not necessarily having much correlation . . . all beings can exhibit faith, even atheists have faith. And of course atheists have beliefs, but these two things are entirely separate. Perhaps this helps Faith is in the realm of intuition, perhaps more holistic -- body, mind, emotions that translates into a sense of well-being or looking forward Belief is largely learned, conditioned, reactive, and tries to present concepts, ideas, morals, histories, etc . . . which might give a person faith to some extent, but is only experiential in terms of dogma, cult, creed. The Sufis spend a great deal of time on these distinctions, as do some Zen Buddhists Masters, but the Sufis, being largely under the influence and experience of Shariah have really examined just what the nature of belief and faith represent. When you have to deal with omnipresent legalism, examining what people believe and how they operate become, shall we say sciences. In fact, Sufi scholars or teachers, etc refer to these conditions as 'sciences'. True enough, Sufism presents a methodology of exercises to dispense with beliefs, to go beyond them, but never outside the realm of shall we say pure faith. In fact, that is seen as annhiliation in -- 'the one'. A complete submersion in reality. Ana al Haqq (the real). Faith is part of this, beliefs are not. Beliefs are often a necessary raft to get to the shore, for most are lacking in abilities. Of course, Zen (zen) is a particular case . . . Zen deals with this in a more direct manner, not having the trappings of monotheism and sacred law. Of course it has its own cultural clap-trap as well, as we can see from various posts here and elsewhere. Everyone has a particular Zen. And of course this particular Zen is often more along the lines of belief than faith == experience. To the Sufi, or Christian mystic for that matter, there is no thing that can be held in the mind to approximate God. We are fumbling in the dark. There can be no definitions -- it is incomprehensible, to the Sufi. To be a Muslim, or Christian, well that is quite another thing, in terms of books, expression, history. But the Sufis take monotheism, or vedanta, etc . . . and, like the Buddhist, go to the other shore, abandoning the raft . . . but they never abandon the expression of faith. Most common form expression of Sufis ... la illiha il Allah There is no God (negation) But God (affirmation) We could talk about Taoism at this point, that would be obvious. There is no way for us to ultimately have beliefs. Beliefs are only conventionally useful, or not so useful. All mystics shed the skin of 'religion'. Anyone interested could find some comparative studies along these lines in this work . . . the Perennialist and Neo Traditionalist have written a great deal about this sort of thing. http://www.amazon.com/Sufism-Taoism-Comparative-Philosophical-Concepts/dp/0520052641 Merry Christmas zendervish --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Salik, I agree zen = experience, but the discussion was about 'faith'. I use the term 'faith' to describe a type of belief that has no experiential, scientific or logical foundation. 'Belief' for me is a more general term and does include beliefs based on experience or scientific evidence or logic/reason. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, salik888 novelidea8@ wrote: Karl Jaspers referred to faith as a 'leap'. Leap of faith . . . there was no way to know, you could understant in some small way, but in terms of what Religion offered on a sensible reasonable level, all systems had fallen short of completion -- due to our level in the contingent scheme of things. Faith is just a way of saying, I can let go and move, take the next step, that's all . . . So back to Zazen and faith. Of course faith can be verified with the senses, to a certain extent. Zazen = experience zendervish --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Chris, Salik, et al... Okay, if you don't like my proposed simile as in 'faith' = 'belief', how about a proposed antonym as in 'faith' as
True Christianity? ...WAS ---- [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Bill!, Zendervish, Bill, would you we willing to consider that there is an aspect of faith which is like trust? Trust, like faith, is often not simply blind, but is earned; it is developed. I won't flesh that out. Also, in all sorts of empirical situations, we humans rely on Induction; Philosopher David Hume spent some time on that matter in his TREATISE OF HUMAN NATURE. For example, each day in the past, the sun has risen in the East and set in the West: will it happen again tomorrow? Hume writes that we have a sort of compulsion, a psychological proclivity, to suppose that it will. Is this proclivity dependent on a faith, or a trust? Mind you, here's an empirical situation: a matter of fact, it's called. We don't know in advance if the sun will rise; but, ...we have a faith or a trust that it will? It would seem our lives are based on a very shaky kind of certainty! Granted, our expectation of the sun's behavior is based on our observation of how it has appeared to behave in the past, and on our memory of that behavior. Is it *reasonable* for us to assume or expect that it will behave again as it has in the past? Or, is this a faith of ours? A trust? If the latter two, are faith and trust reasonable? And, then, is not this faith solidly based on empirical observation and upon our conditioning by empirical, factual information? This is not blind faith: this is the kind of faith one has even in Buddha Nature after one has realized it. It is a faith lived from the inside, not the outside, and it is very solid. It continues, and itself has a life, and a career. To give this faith or this trust a mechanical-sounding name like induction, or the workings of induction, does not shift the origins of our expectation of sunrise to something outside of ourselves, and make it a part of a corpus of knowledge that has something more to do with Physics than with us. It's ALL our doing! And I don't mean that in some sort of spooky way. I agree with Hume's notion that it is psychological, in the broad sense he employs. I'll leave this open-ended, because I do not know how to close it. ;-) --Joe Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Zendervish, IMO, and as I use these terms... 'Belief' is a condition of the mind that categorizes something as true or real. 'Faith' is a type of belief that has no experiential, scientific or logical foundation. I think these definitions are pretty much the same as the ones you gave in the 3rd and 4th paragraphs of your post below. Both belief and faith are helpful and maybe even necessary in the early phases of zen practice. They were in mine. After realizing Buddha Nature faith no long plays any part in zen practice - at least not in mine. ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
True Christianity? ...WAS ---- [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Joe, Of course both belief and faith have a component of trust. My distinction is just that faith is a type of belief that has no experiential, scientific or logical foundation. Trust can be well- or ill-founded. Hume's 'will the sun rise again tomorrow' is a good example. Whether you consider the answer to that (belief) something based on faith or not could be debated. I say it is. In any event the question of whether or not the sun will rise again tomorrow has nothing to do with zen practice. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Joe desert_woodworker@... wrote: Bill!, Zendervish, Bill, would you we willing to consider that there is an aspect of faith which is like trust? Trust, like faith, is often not simply blind, but is earned; it is developed. I won't flesh that out. Also, in all sorts of empirical situations, we humans rely on Induction; Philosopher David Hume spent some time on that matter in his TREATISE OF HUMAN NATURE. For example, each day in the past, the sun has risen in the East and set in the West: will it happen again tomorrow? Hume writes that we have a sort of compulsion, a psychological proclivity, to suppose that it will. Is this proclivity dependent on a faith, or a trust? Mind you, here's an empirical situation: a matter of fact, it's called. We don't know in advance if the sun will rise; but, ...we have a faith or a trust that it will? It would seem our lives are based on a very shaky kind of certainty! Granted, our expectation of the sun's behavior is based on our observation of how it has appeared to behave in the past, and on our memory of that behavior. Is it *reasonable* for us to assume or expect that it will behave again as it has in the past? Or, is this a faith of ours? A trust? If the latter two, are faith and trust reasonable? And, then, is not this faith solidly based on empirical observation and upon our conditioning by empirical, factual information? This is not blind faith: this is the kind of faith one has even in Buddha Nature after one has realized it. It is a faith lived from the inside, not the outside, and it is very solid. It continues, and itself has a life, and a career. To give this faith or this trust a mechanical-sounding name like induction, or the workings of induction, does not shift the origins of our expectation of sunrise to something outside of ourselves, and make it a part of a corpus of knowledge that has something more to do with Physics than with us. It's ALL our doing! And I don't mean that in some sort of spooky way. I agree with Hume's notion that it is psychological, in the broad sense he employs. I'll leave this open-ended, because I do not know how to close it. ;-) --Joe Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Zendervish, IMO, and as I use these terms... 'Belief' is a condition of the mind that categorizes something as true or real. 'Faith' is a type of belief that has no experiential, scientific or logical foundation. I think these definitions are pretty much the same as the ones you gave in the 3rd and 4th paragraphs of your post below. Both belief and faith are helpful and maybe even necessary in the early phases of zen practice. They were in mine. After realizing Buddha Nature faith no long plays any part in zen practice - at least not in mine. ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
True Christianity? ...WAS ---- [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
There you have it __/\__ zendervish --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Zendervish, IMO, and as I use these terms... 'Belief' is a condition of the mind that categorizes something as true or real. 'Faith' is a type of belief that has no experiential, scientific or logical foundation. I think these definitions are pretty much the same as the ones you gave in the 3rd and 4th paragraphs of your post below. Both belief and faith are helpful and maybe even necessary in the early phases of zen practice. They were in mine. After realizing Buddha Nature faith no long plays any part in zen practice - at least not in mine. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, salik888 novelidea8@ wrote: Dear Bill Well, we are back to faith and belief not necessarily having much correlation . . . all beings can exhibit faith, even atheists have faith. And of course atheists have beliefs, but these two things are entirely separate. Perhaps this helps Faith is in the realm of intuition, perhaps more holistic -- body, mind, emotions that translates into a sense of well-being or looking forward Belief is largely learned, conditioned, reactive, and tries to present concepts, ideas, morals, histories, etc . . . which might give a person faith to some extent, but is only experiential in terms of dogma, cult, creed. The Sufis spend a great deal of time on these distinctions, as do some Zen Buddhists Masters, but the Sufis, being largely under the influence and experience of Shariah have really examined just what the nature of belief and faith represent. When you have to deal with omnipresent legalism, examining what people believe and how they operate become, shall we say sciences. In fact, Sufi scholars or teachers, etc refer to these conditions as 'sciences'. True enough, Sufism presents a methodology of exercises to dispense with beliefs, to go beyond them, but never outside the realm of shall we say pure faith. In fact, that is seen as annhiliation in -- 'the one'. A complete submersion in reality. Ana al Haqq (the real). Faith is part of this, beliefs are not. Beliefs are often a necessary raft to get to the shore, for most are lacking in abilities. Of course, Zen (zen) is a particular case . . . Zen deals with this in a more direct manner, not having the trappings of monotheism and sacred law. Of course it has its own cultural clap-trap as well, as we can see from various posts here and elsewhere. Everyone has a particular Zen. And of course this particular Zen is often more along the lines of belief than faith == experience. To the Sufi, or Christian mystic for that matter, there is no thing that can be held in the mind to approximate God. We are fumbling in the dark. There can be no definitions -- it is incomprehensible, to the Sufi. To be a Muslim, or Christian, well that is quite another thing, in terms of books, expression, history. But the Sufis take monotheism, or vedanta, etc . . . and, like the Buddhist, go to the other shore, abandoning the raft . . . but they never abandon the expression of faith. Most common form expression of Sufis ... la illiha il Allah There is no God (negation) But God (affirmation) We could talk about Taoism at this point, that would be obvious. There is no way for us to ultimately have beliefs. Beliefs are only conventionally useful, or not so useful. All mystics shed the skin of 'religion'. Anyone interested could find some comparative studies along these lines in this work . . . the Perennialist and Neo Traditionalist have written a great deal about this sort of thing. http://www.amazon.com/Sufism-Taoism-Comparative-Philosophical-Concepts/dp/0520052641 Merry Christmas zendervish --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Salik, I agree zen = experience, but the discussion was about 'faith'. I use the term 'faith' to describe a type of belief that has no experiential, scientific or logical foundation. 'Belief' for me is a more general term and does include beliefs based on experience or scientific evidence or logic/reason. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, salik888 novelidea8@ wrote: Karl Jaspers referred to faith as a 'leap'. Leap of faith . . . there was no way to know, you could understant in some small way, but in terms of what Religion offered on a sensible reasonable level, all systems had fallen short of completion -- due to our level in the contingent scheme of things. Faith is just a way of saying, I can let go and move, take the next step, that's all . . . So back to Zazen and faith. Of course faith can be verified with the senses, to a certain extent. Zazen = experience zendervish
True Christianity? ...WAS ---- [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Well, if you have to think about faith or no faith this much there is probably not much inight into just how faith moves . . . there really is no way of defining faith, or refuting . . . much like Zen, it is an experiential mystery that has many faces. We could just call it, 'catching my groove'. zendervish --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Joe desert_woodworker@... wrote: Bill!, Zendervish, Bill, would you we willing to consider that there is an aspect of faith which is like trust? Trust, like faith, is often not simply blind, but is earned; it is developed. I won't flesh that out. Also, in all sorts of empirical situations, we humans rely on Induction; Philosopher David Hume spent some time on that matter in his TREATISE OF HUMAN NATURE. For example, each day in the past, the sun has risen in the East and set in the West: will it happen again tomorrow? Hume writes that we have a sort of compulsion, a psychological proclivity, to suppose that it will. Is this proclivity dependent on a faith, or a trust? Mind you, here's an empirical situation: a matter of fact, it's called. We don't know in advance if the sun will rise; but, ...we have a faith or a trust that it will? It would seem our lives are based on a very shaky kind of certainty! Granted, our expectation of the sun's behavior is based on our observation of how it has appeared to behave in the past, and on our memory of that behavior. Is it *reasonable* for us to assume or expect that it will behave again as it has in the past? Or, is this a faith of ours? A trust? If the latter two, are faith and trust reasonable? And, then, is not this faith solidly based on empirical observation and upon our conditioning by empirical, factual information? This is not blind faith: this is the kind of faith one has even in Buddha Nature after one has realized it. It is a faith lived from the inside, not the outside, and it is very solid. It continues, and itself has a life, and a career. To give this faith or this trust a mechanical-sounding name like induction, or the workings of induction, does not shift the origins of our expectation of sunrise to something outside of ourselves, and make it a part of a corpus of knowledge that has something more to do with Physics than with us. It's ALL our doing! And I don't mean that in some sort of spooky way. I agree with Hume's notion that it is psychological, in the broad sense he employs. I'll leave this open-ended, because I do not know how to close it. ;-) --Joe Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Zendervish, IMO, and as I use these terms... 'Belief' is a condition of the mind that categorizes something as true or real. 'Faith' is a type of belief that has no experiential, scientific or logical foundation. I think these definitions are pretty much the same as the ones you gave in the 3rd and 4th paragraphs of your post below. Both belief and faith are helpful and maybe even necessary in the early phases of zen practice. They were in mine. After realizing Buddha Nature faith no long plays any part in zen practice - at least not in mine. ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
True Christianity? ...WAS ---- [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Salik, Bill!, To an extent, faith is Trust. Of course, experience is the Great Leveler; but, even after that, trust is something to rely on, because we know we can. ;-) I call it faith; I also call it trust. I'm probably not the only one. If I am, I'll be greatly surprised, as in, a dis-believer. My Sufi-name is Nur. Fitting, for an Astronomer. But at times, I've also specialized in invisible parts of 'the' spectrum. Fitting for a Practitioner. Greetings, in this Season of Light(s)!, --Joe / Nur / Guo-Xiang / Tennen salik888 novelidea8@... wrote: Dear Bill Well, we are back to faith and belief not necessarily having much correlation . . . all beings can exhibit faith, even atheists have faith. And of course atheists have beliefs, but these two things are entirely separate. [snip] Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
True Christianity? ...WAS ---- [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Chris, Thanks for this great interchange. Buddhist-Christian Dialogue is an activity that's been important with me for several decades. I don't follow the literature as much as I used to, but I still feel the activity is important while Buddhism takes root in the West and as the Christian Churches all undergo change. A fine book, which is essentially edited-records of a lengthy dialog between a Western Zen master and a Christian Benedictine Brother is, THE GROUND WE SHARE -- EVERYDAY PRACTICE, BUDDHIST AND CHRISTIAN, 1996, Shambhala, by Robert Aitken Roshi and Brother David Steindl-Rast. Thanks again!, All Best, --Joe Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote: Thanks, --Chris chris@... +1-301-270-6524 [snip] Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: True Christianity? ...WAS ---- [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
/bow Thanks, Chris Austin-Lane Sent from a cell phone On Dec 19, 2012, at 11:42, Joe desert_woodwor...@yahoo.com wrote: Chris, Thanks for this great interchange. Buddhist-Christian Dialogue is an activity that's been important with me for several decades. I don't follow the literature as much as I used to, but I still feel the activity is important while Buddhism takes root in the West and as the Christian Churches all undergo change. A fine book, which is essentially edited-records of a lengthy dialog between a Western Zen master and a Christian Benedictine Brother is, THE GROUND WE SHARE -- EVERYDAY PRACTICE, BUDDHIST AND CHRISTIAN, 1996, Shambhala, by Robert Aitken Roshi and Brother David Steindl-Rast. Thanks again!, All Best, --Joe Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote: Thanks, --Chris chris@... +1-301-270-6524 [snip] Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: True Christianity? ...WAS ---- [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Thanks, --Chris ch...@austin-lane.net +1-301-270-6524 On Sun, Dec 16, 2012 at 4:36 PM, Joe desert_woodwor...@yahoo.com wrote: Chris, Thanks for the well-considered and wise points. I guess that you can see that my aim in these considerations over the decades has stemmed from a determination to feel LESS divided from and judged by people who express beliefs that I don't share, particularly by those, again, who express an acceptance of the entirety of Christian tradition and teaching as true and actual. 1. If you feel divided from others, sit more (or pray more :) 2. Why would you take people's own beliefs as being significant? Are you going to judge my thoughts as good thoughts or bad thoughts next?! You write: It in my experience is an error to treat what people tell you as their beliefs as some static thing about them. The question is beyond belief vs metaphor, the question is right now can I let go of my self and accept grace. ...and I think that is just right. If I were to *tell* folks that I take their expressed-beliefs as un-fixed, tentative, or provisional, just barely standing-in now for something that will be more perfect, more established, more LIVED tomorrow, they'd point me in the direction of the door, I think, or suggest something more rude. As Buddha is rumored to have said, speak no ill of others and no good of yourself. Right, if you tell folks that they and their beliefs are but clouds in the sky, they might take that as an attacking sort of thing. But you aren't supposed to tell people what you see, you are supposed to act on what you see. And making more of apparently fixed positions than they are is not always useful. Although I don't -- maybe can't -- intimately know the minds of those people, nonetheless, I really suppose that some of them honestly and firmly -- and calmly and confidently! -- believe the things they claim they believe, especially when they profess them, express them as their creed. Why should I think they are lying? Because you know the nature of belief and the nature of reality. It doesn't matter what they believe (in general), it's just thoughts. No more inescapable doom than your own thoughts. You can't save them but life does offer, over and over again, the opportunity to help people wrest a little freedom and acceptance from what they thought, to grunt in the right way, to ask the timely question, to smile and let them answer some dilemma themselves. Sitting next to people and listening is our power. No one is asking you to certify their beliefs as good. Just to be yourself with them, not picking and choosing. I myself had beliefs of this kind, at juvenile ages. It put great awe into me, and made me appreciate Nature greatly. I'm grateful for that! But I have felt no firm and confident beliefs like that since I was, say, ten years old. I think I became a Buddhist, then. Certainly a nature-mystic, at first, in addition to a (very) young scientist. But while I held them, the strong beliefs that I had absorbed from the Church divided me from others. Others could not have the ethics, the morality, we did, because they did not have our beliefs, if they were of other churches (religions). Perhaps that short chance you gave to the church is why your idea of christian practice is so rigid - people that follow a path for decades, through life's ups and downs, and burn it into their cells, tend to have a fairly open and realistic view of the path. Children die, friends die, parents die, people sicken, age, and suffer, and yet we get up each day to do what we can, and lo, a wonderful Creation meets us. Each morning alive is a great opportunity, a great chance. If the metaphor is, The Good in us is constantly being crucified, but it resurrects, then I am definitely on-board, and not divided. No matter what, you are not divided (unless you want to be, I guess :) But if the teaching and teachers and practitioners do NOT take as metaphorical Jesus' statement, I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life,, then, I don't see how to climb on board, to practice with them. Is there more than one Way or multiplicity of Lives? Not in the zendo and not in the world, and not in the church. The issue is this: if they are true believers, and I take it all as wonderfully helpful and life-giving poetry, they may resent me just going through the motions, and not believing anything, as they might say. Obviously, if you don't consider yourself part of the community, then they may not consider you to be part of the community, but in my experience, being present, being open, struggling with the unsatisfactory nature of life, helping your fellows, singing, these are what make a difference. Generally, no one is quizzing you, and no one is unfamiliar with the chimeric nature of belief - most practitioners understand we do not in our small selfs worship, but we are open to God's presence in
True Christianity? ...WAS ---- [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Chris, Salik, et al... Okay, if you don't like my proposed simile as in 'faith' = 'belief', how about a proposed antonym as in 'faith' as opposed to/contrasted with 'know'? ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, salik888 novelidea8@... wrote: Sorry, but Faith is not necessarily another word for belief . . . all traditions use this expression. Grace is another word bandied about; to the secularist, we could just call these things, good luck, or a sense of security. Tillich made reference to faith, and all things in Christianity, in terms of 'the ground of being'. So, now we are back to presence. I have heard Zen Masters use the term 'faith' on many occassions. Lou Reed sang, 'you need a busload of faith to get by'. If you don't have faith in your own zazen, then why do it? Faith is stupid, dumb, superstitious, useful, necessary, not necessary, etc . . . but it does not necessarily have anything to do with belief systems. NLP creates great space for faith. in my estimation, faith has to do with action, taking action, which last time I checked none of us are able to stop in the mechanical universe in which we live. zendervish --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Chris, The 'heart' of Christianity is FAITH, which is another word for 'belief'. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@ wrote: Well, as my Episcopal t-shirt says below, belief is not at the heart of Christianity, rather the action of worshipping in community is. There is a tremendous variety of beliefs in my church at least. it is fun to have a variety of beliefs but it's peripheral. I find it easier to speak to folks with less out there beliefs at coffee hour, but fulfilling to speak with anyone when I have an open heart or ears. Metaphor is sort of a timid word, howevere. But there is I am sure some group of metaphor believers around. (#10 I believe is not strictly true - at least in.Charlotte NC there was a church of speaking in tongues, and I think snake handling tends to go along with that 'charismatic' sect. I think most serious people of any religion do not read the Bible or anything else looking for scientific truths, but for external input that clarifies our ability to accept Creation as it is now and respond appropriately. Top Ten Reasons to be an Episcopalian: (from the comedian Robin Williams, who is an Episcopalian, on a recent HBO special) 10. No snake handling. 9. You can believe in dinosaurs. 8. Male and female God created them; male and female we ordain them. 7. You don't have to check your brains at the door. 6. Pew aerobics. 5. Church year is color-coded. 4. Free wine on Sunday. 3. All of the pageantry - none of the guilt. 2. You don't have to know how to swim to get baptized. And the Number One reason to be an Episcopalian: 1. No matter what you believe, there's bound to be at least one other Episcopalian who agrees with you. Copyright © 2002 St. Augustine by-the-Sea On Dec 14, 2012 2:26 PM, Joe desert_woodworker@ wrote: Bill!, It would be like being a Christian but not believing Jesus was the Son of God. You raise a point that's long been *very* interesting to me. I wonder about the case of someone who takes the whole Christian/Jewish story as metaphor. Can such a person be a good Christian? Or, does *everyone* take the Christian story as metaphor? I suppose that such a person will -- or can -- be good, in all ways. And I suspect that such a person believes that the real story, the true picture of reality in its depth and heights, is not and cannot be encapsulated in any story, person, historical event, or even metaphor, nor via any conceivable thread of reasoning, nor science or philosophy. This leaves the picture open to appreciation as a mystery, which is a pretty good state of affairs, I think. The metaphor 'just' gives a structure by which to approach the reality, because there's no other way to preserve or make available the lived tradition, other than to encapsulate it, *SOMEHOW*, for transmission to each generation. That's a big just! In other words, the metaphor serves as a vehicle for transmission of certain clues and cues for the practitioner, which themselves serve as a Yoga or a ladder for the practitioner. I like to think that the truest Christians -- the Christians most intimate with Christian truths -- are the ones who accept the tradition as metaphor. But I believe this is heresy in my (previous) Church! Yet, it may simply be Secret. For example: the tradition is taught as literal truth, but practitioners must simply come to their own understanding of it, as metaphor, a metaphor for them
True Christianity? ...WAS ---- [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Karl Jaspers referred to faith as a 'leap'. Leap of faith . . . there was no way to know, you could understant in some small way, but in terms of what Religion offered on a sensible reasonable level, all systems had fallen short of completion -- due to our level in the contingent scheme of things. Faith is just a way of saying, I can let go and move, take the next step, that's all . . . So back to Zazen and faith. Of course faith can be verified with the senses, to a certain extent. Zazen = experience zendervish --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Chris, Salik, et al... Okay, if you don't like my proposed simile as in 'faith' = 'belief', how about a proposed antonym as in 'faith' as opposed to/contrasted with 'know'? ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, salik888 novelidea8@ wrote: Sorry, but Faith is not necessarily another word for belief . . . all traditions use this expression. Grace is another word bandied about; to the secularist, we could just call these things, good luck, or a sense of security. Tillich made reference to faith, and all things in Christianity, in terms of 'the ground of being'. So, now we are back to presence. I have heard Zen Masters use the term 'faith' on many occassions. Lou Reed sang, 'you need a busload of faith to get by'. If you don't have faith in your own zazen, then why do it? Faith is stupid, dumb, superstitious, useful, necessary, not necessary, etc . . . but it does not necessarily have anything to do with belief systems. NLP creates great space for faith. in my estimation, faith has to do with action, taking action, which last time I checked none of us are able to stop in the mechanical universe in which we live. zendervish --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Chris, The 'heart' of Christianity is FAITH, which is another word for 'belief'. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@ wrote: Well, as my Episcopal t-shirt says below, belief is not at the heart of Christianity, rather the action of worshipping in community is. There is a tremendous variety of beliefs in my church at least. it is fun to have a variety of beliefs but it's peripheral. I find it easier to speak to folks with less out there beliefs at coffee hour, but fulfilling to speak with anyone when I have an open heart or ears. Metaphor is sort of a timid word, howevere. But there is I am sure some group of metaphor believers around. (#10 I believe is not strictly true - at least in.Charlotte NC there was a church of speaking in tongues, and I think snake handling tends to go along with that 'charismatic' sect. I think most serious people of any religion do not read the Bible or anything else looking for scientific truths, but for external input that clarifies our ability to accept Creation as it is now and respond appropriately. Top Ten Reasons to be an Episcopalian: (from the comedian Robin Williams, who is an Episcopalian, on a recent HBO special) 10. No snake handling. 9. You can believe in dinosaurs. 8. Male and female God created them; male and female we ordain them. 7. You don't have to check your brains at the door. 6. Pew aerobics. 5. Church year is color-coded. 4. Free wine on Sunday. 3. All of the pageantry - none of the guilt. 2. You don't have to know how to swim to get baptized. And the Number One reason to be an Episcopalian: 1. No matter what you believe, there's bound to be at least one other Episcopalian who agrees with you. Copyright © 2002 St. Augustine by-the-Sea On Dec 14, 2012 2:26 PM, Joe desert_woodworker@ wrote: Bill!, It would be like being a Christian but not believing Jesus was the Son of God. You raise a point that's long been *very* interesting to me. I wonder about the case of someone who takes the whole Christian/Jewish story as metaphor. Can such a person be a good Christian? Or, does *everyone* take the Christian story as metaphor? I suppose that such a person will -- or can -- be good, in all ways. And I suspect that such a person believes that the real story, the true picture of reality in its depth and heights, is not and cannot be encapsulated in any story, person, historical event, or even metaphor, nor via any conceivable thread of reasoning, nor science or philosophy. This leaves the picture open to appreciation as a mystery, which is a pretty good state of affairs, I think. The metaphor 'just' gives a structure by which to approach the reality, because there's no other way to preserve or make available the lived tradition,
Re: True Christianity? ...WAS ---- [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Thanks, Chris Austin-Lane Sent from a cell phone On Dec 15, 2012, at 14:33, Joe desert_woodwor...@yahoo.com wrote: Chris, Thanks very much for your perspectives. One thing jumps out for me to be clear about: Joe wrote: But can we also worship with them? I'd say Yes. I think that ritual and group practice of this kind and other kinds (simple Assembly, or Meeting, as in Quaker practice, or Zazen as in Zen circles) graciously makes visible the invisible, which must always remain *invisible* (the Absolute). Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote: Them/us? Yes, Chris, I'm taking it all the way back to the beginning there, at the end. The them/us is (1.) the community of those who take the revealed tradition as actually and really true, and (2.) those who take it all, or mostly, as metaphor. It in my experience is an error to treat what people tell you as their beliefs as some static thing about them. The question is beyond belief vs metaphor, the question is right now can I let go of my self and accept grace. Even with people with very conservative sounding beliefs, the person is not their self idea (whether they say this or not) and every person takes action in the moment; that moment is the crux of the matter. And sometimes a person expressing more open belief systems is none the less not that open to other people As I said there is more diversity of actual belief, varying by person but also by time, situation, and circumstance, among my church that I know about than on the internets. Dividing people into believing this or that is only provisionally useful and usually less useful than establishing and sticking to a kind perspective that seeks not to divide or judge. I claim we CAN practice togetherPerhap, and can worship together. Even though we share (!) different theology, don't share BELIEF (in a personal God), and don't share a FAITH (in a personal Savior). Big step! I don't know if you agree. But for all the reasons in my previous post, I make the jump to claim we can, or that I can. --Joe PS I would not be surprised to hear that certain clergy take the whole ball of wax as metaphor, even Roman Catholic priests. They may behave officially in ways that aren't true to their metaphoric understanding, however, and we might not get to know their personal appreciations unless we get to know them well. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
True Christianity? ...WAS ---- [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Chris, Thanks for the well-considered and wise points. I guess that you can see that my aim in these considerations over the decades has stemmed from a determination to feel LESS divided from and judged by people who express beliefs that I don't share, particularly by those, again, who express an acceptance of the entirety of Christian tradition and teaching as true and actual. You write: It in my experience is an error to treat what people tell you as their beliefs as some static thing about them. The question is beyond belief vs metaphor, the question is right now can I let go of my self and accept grace. ...and I think that is just right. If I were to *tell* folks that I take their expressed-beliefs as un-fixed, tentative, or provisional, just barely standing-in now for something that will be more perfect, more established, more LIVED tomorrow, they'd point me in the direction of the door, I think, or suggest something more rude. Although I don't -- maybe can't -- intimately know the minds of those people, nonetheless, I really suppose that some of them honestly and firmly -- and calmly and confidently! -- believe the things they claim they believe, especially when they profess them, express them as their creed. Why should I think they are lying? I myself had beliefs of this kind, at juvenile ages. It put great awe into me, and made me appreciate Nature greatly. I'm grateful for that! But I have felt no firm and confident beliefs like that since I was, say, ten years old. I think I became a Buddhist, then. Certainly a nature-mystic, at first, in addition to a (very) young scientist. But while I held them, the strong beliefs that I had absorbed from the Church divided me from others. Others could not have the ethics, the morality, we did, because they did not have our beliefs, if they were of other churches (religions). If the metaphor is, The Good in us is constantly being crucified, but it resurrects, then I am definitely on-board, and not divided. But if the teaching and teachers and practitioners do NOT take as metaphorical Jesus' statement, I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life,, then, I don't see how to climb on board, to practice with them. The issue is this: if they are true believers, and I take it all as wonderfully helpful and life-giving poetry, they may resent me just going through the motions, and not believing anything, as they might say. Now, then, what ABOUT the person who *is* just going through the motions, and not believing anything?, nor even taking the teachings as useful and wise metaphors? I think that person would be acting questionably, from everybody's point of view. ;-) Well, I'll let it go. I re-visit all of this very often. First leakage of it here, I think, though. --Joe ChrisAustinLane chris@... wrote: Thanks, Chris Austin-Lane Sent from a cell phone On Dec 15, 2012, at 14:33, Joe desert_woodworker@... wrote: Chris, Thanks very much for your perspectives. One thing jumps out for me to be clear about: Joe wrote: But can we also worship with them? I'd say Yes. I think that ritual and group practice of this kind and other kinds (simple Assembly, or Meeting, as in Quaker practice, or Zazen as in Zen circles) graciously makes visible the invisible, which must always remain *invisible* (the Absolute). Chris Austin-Lane chris@ wrote: Them/us? Yes, Chris, I'm taking it all the way back to the beginning there, at the end. The them/us is (1.) the community of those who take the revealed tradition as actually and really true, and (2.) those who take it all, or mostly, as metaphor. It in my experience is an error to treat what people tell you as their beliefs as some static thing about them. The question is beyond belief vs metaphor, the question is right now can I let go of my self and accept grace. Even with people with very conservative sounding beliefs, the person is not their self idea (whether they say this or not) and every person takes action in the moment; that moment is the crux of the matter. And sometimes a person expressing more open belief systems is none the less not that open to other people As I said there is more diversity of actual belief, varying by person but also by time, situation, and circumstance, among my church that I know about than on the internets. Dividing people into believing this or that is only provisionally useful and usually less useful than establishing and sticking to a kind perspective that seeks not to divide or judge. I claim we CAN practice together Perhap, and can worship together. Even though we share (!) different theology, don't share BELIEF (in a personal God), and don't share a FAITH (in a personal Savior). Big step! I don't know if you agree. But for all the reasons in my previous post, I make the jump to claim we can, or that I can. --Joe PS
True Christianity? ...WAS ---- [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Salik, I agree zen = experience, but the discussion was about 'faith'. I use the term 'faith' to describe a type of belief that has no experiential, scientific or logical foundation. 'Belief' for me is a more general term and does include beliefs based on experience or scientific evidence or logic/reason. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, salik888 novelidea8@... wrote: Karl Jaspers referred to faith as a 'leap'. Leap of faith . . . there was no way to know, you could understant in some small way, but in terms of what Religion offered on a sensible reasonable level, all systems had fallen short of completion -- due to our level in the contingent scheme of things. Faith is just a way of saying, I can let go and move, take the next step, that's all . . . So back to Zazen and faith. Of course faith can be verified with the senses, to a certain extent. Zazen = experience zendervish --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Chris, Salik, et al... Okay, if you don't like my proposed simile as in 'faith' = 'belief', how about a proposed antonym as in 'faith' as opposed to/contrasted with 'know'? ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, salik888 novelidea8@ wrote: Sorry, but Faith is not necessarily another word for belief . . . all traditions use this expression. Grace is another word bandied about; to the secularist, we could just call these things, good luck, or a sense of security. Tillich made reference to faith, and all things in Christianity, in terms of 'the ground of being'. So, now we are back to presence. I have heard Zen Masters use the term 'faith' on many occassions. Lou Reed sang, 'you need a busload of faith to get by'. If you don't have faith in your own zazen, then why do it? Faith is stupid, dumb, superstitious, useful, necessary, not necessary, etc . . . but it does not necessarily have anything to do with belief systems. NLP creates great space for faith. in my estimation, faith has to do with action, taking action, which last time I checked none of us are able to stop in the mechanical universe in which we live. zendervish --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Chris, The 'heart' of Christianity is FAITH, which is another word for 'belief'. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@ wrote: Well, as my Episcopal t-shirt says below, belief is not at the heart of Christianity, rather the action of worshipping in community is. There is a tremendous variety of beliefs in my church at least. it is fun to have a variety of beliefs but it's peripheral. I find it easier to speak to folks with less out there beliefs at coffee hour, but fulfilling to speak with anyone when I have an open heart or ears. Metaphor is sort of a timid word, howevere. But there is I am sure some group of metaphor believers around. (#10 I believe is not strictly true - at least in.Charlotte NC there was a church of speaking in tongues, and I think snake handling tends to go along with that 'charismatic' sect. I think most serious people of any religion do not read the Bible or anything else looking for scientific truths, but for external input that clarifies our ability to accept Creation as it is now and respond appropriately. Top Ten Reasons to be an Episcopalian: (from the comedian Robin Williams, who is an Episcopalian, on a recent HBO special) 10. No snake handling. 9. You can believe in dinosaurs. 8. Male and female God created them; male and female we ordain them. 7. You don't have to check your brains at the door. 6. Pew aerobics. 5. Church year is color-coded. 4. Free wine on Sunday. 3. All of the pageantry - none of the guilt. 2. You don't have to know how to swim to get baptized. And the Number One reason to be an Episcopalian: 1. No matter what you believe, there's bound to be at least one other Episcopalian who agrees with you. Copyright © 2002 St. Augustine by-the-Sea On Dec 14, 2012 2:26 PM, Joe desert_woodworker@ wrote: Bill!, It would be like being a Christian but not believing Jesus was the Son of God. You raise a point that's long been *very* interesting to me. I wonder about the case of someone who takes the whole Christian/Jewish story as metaphor. Can such a person be a good Christian? Or, does *everyone* take the Christian story as metaphor? I suppose that such a person will -- or can -- be good, in all ways. And I suspect that such a person believes that the real story, the true
True Christianity? ...WAS ---- [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Joe, You pondered... I wonder about the case of someone who takes the whole Christian/Jewish story as metaphor. Can such a person be a good Christian? Or, does *everyone* take the Christian story as metaphor? I certainly take the story of Jesus' life a mostly metaphor, just as I take the story of Siddhartha Gautama's life. These are some of the reasons I don't identify myself as Christian or Buddhist. I think a person who takes such stories as metaphors can appear to be a 'good' Christian or Buddhist, and they might indeed consider themselves as such. However I believe the clergy of these religions would not think that, and neither would the vast majority of the members of these religions. No, not EVERYONE takes these stories as metaphors. It is my belief that the vast majority of people identifying themselves with these religions believe every detail of these stories is true. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Joe desert_woodworker@... wrote: Bill!, It would be like being a Christian but not believing Jesus was the Son of God. You raise a point that's long been *very* interesting to me. I wonder about the case of someone who takes the whole Christian/Jewish story as metaphor. Can such a person be a good Christian? Or, does *everyone* take the Christian story as metaphor? I suppose that such a person will -- or can -- be good, in all ways. And I suspect that such a person believes that the real story, the true picture of reality in its depth and heights, is not and cannot be encapsulated in any story, person, historical event, or even metaphor, nor via any conceivable thread of reasoning, nor science or philosophy. This leaves the picture open to appreciation as a mystery, which is a pretty good state of affairs, I think. The metaphor 'just' gives a structure by which to approach the reality, because there's no other way to preserve or make available the lived tradition, other than to encapsulate it, *SOMEHOW*, for transmission to each generation. That's a big just! In other words, the metaphor serves as a vehicle for transmission of certain clues and cues for the practitioner, which themselves serve as a Yoga or a ladder for the practitioner. I like to think that the truest Christians -- the Christians most intimate with Christian truths -- are the ones who accept the tradition as metaphor. But I believe this is heresy in my (previous) Church! Yet, it may simply be Secret. For example: the tradition is taught as literal truth, but practitioners must simply come to their own understanding of it, as metaphor, a metaphor for them which impinges on the reality of life and opens windows upon Human nature and relationships, and upon all of Nature. No one tells you that you must do this. And this is, therefore, the only way that such implausible stories can actually be useful to a person, spiritually and intellectually: one builds one's life and behavior in the light of the metaphor, and in appreciation of the metaphor. The tradition gracefully allows one to do this. It only forces down one's throat the implausible literal stories, and allows you to do the real work of understanding and incorporation after you find that you must vomit them up. It becomes *entirely* personal! What better religion than that, especially if you share it with others. While keeping the secret of the metaphoric nature of the teachings, that is; wink-wink. Well, simple notions, still in a puppy-stage, here, and left that way for decades, but re-visited occasionally. You may also gather a hint of the state and extent of pollution of my Christianity by my Zen practice, and experience. I've heard other folks express that they had first to become a good Zen Buddhist practitioner before they could ever have become a good Christian. Any, err-r, thoughts? ;-) --Joe Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Joe, I'm mostly interested in how someone puts what they call 'zen' into practice than how they acquired it. Of course in this medium the only evidence we see is written communication - a very limited medium for demonstrating Buddha Nature. But I do agree with you that for me zazen (zen meditation) is a cornerstone of all zen teachings. I can't conceive of anyone practicing zen and excluding zazen - but I guess it's possible. It would be like being a Christian but not believing Jesus was the Son of God. You could call yourself a Christian and could in fact be a very good and upright person, but I don't think the majority of your fellow-parishioners would accept you as one of them. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings:
True Christianity? ...WAS ---- [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Chris, The 'heart' of Christianity is FAITH, which is another word for 'belief'. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote: Well, as my Episcopal t-shirt says below, belief is not at the heart of Christianity, rather the action of worshipping in community is. There is a tremendous variety of beliefs in my church at least. it is fun to have a variety of beliefs but it's peripheral. I find it easier to speak to folks with less out there beliefs at coffee hour, but fulfilling to speak with anyone when I have an open heart or ears. Metaphor is sort of a timid word, howevere. But there is I am sure some group of metaphor believers around. (#10 I believe is not strictly true - at least in.Charlotte NC there was a church of speaking in tongues, and I think snake handling tends to go along with that 'charismatic' sect. I think most serious people of any religion do not read the Bible or anything else looking for scientific truths, but for external input that clarifies our ability to accept Creation as it is now and respond appropriately. Top Ten Reasons to be an Episcopalian: (from the comedian Robin Williams, who is an Episcopalian, on a recent HBO special) 10. No snake handling. 9. You can believe in dinosaurs. 8. Male and female God created them; male and female we ordain them. 7. You don't have to check your brains at the door. 6. Pew aerobics. 5. Church year is color-coded. 4. Free wine on Sunday. 3. All of the pageantry - none of the guilt. 2. You don't have to know how to swim to get baptized. And the Number One reason to be an Episcopalian: 1. No matter what you believe, there's bound to be at least one other Episcopalian who agrees with you. Copyright © 2002 St. Augustine by-the-Sea On Dec 14, 2012 2:26 PM, Joe desert_woodworker@... wrote: Bill!, It would be like being a Christian but not believing Jesus was the Son of God. You raise a point that's long been *very* interesting to me. I wonder about the case of someone who takes the whole Christian/Jewish story as metaphor. Can such a person be a good Christian? Or, does *everyone* take the Christian story as metaphor? I suppose that such a person will -- or can -- be good, in all ways. And I suspect that such a person believes that the real story, the true picture of reality in its depth and heights, is not and cannot be encapsulated in any story, person, historical event, or even metaphor, nor via any conceivable thread of reasoning, nor science or philosophy. This leaves the picture open to appreciation as a mystery, which is a pretty good state of affairs, I think. The metaphor 'just' gives a structure by which to approach the reality, because there's no other way to preserve or make available the lived tradition, other than to encapsulate it, *SOMEHOW*, for transmission to each generation. That's a big just! In other words, the metaphor serves as a vehicle for transmission of certain clues and cues for the practitioner, which themselves serve as a Yoga or a ladder for the practitioner. I like to think that the truest Christians -- the Christians most intimate with Christian truths -- are the ones who accept the tradition as metaphor. But I believe this is heresy in my (previous) Church! Yet, it may simply be Secret. For example: the tradition is taught as literal truth, but practitioners must simply come to their own understanding of it, as metaphor, a metaphor for them which impinges on the reality of life and opens windows upon Human nature and relationships, and upon all of Nature. No one tells you that you must do this. And this is, therefore, the only way that such implausible stories can actually be useful to a person, spiritually and intellectually: one builds one's life and behavior in the light of the metaphor, and in appreciation of the metaphor. The tradition gracefully allows one to do this. It only forces down one's throat the implausible literal stories, and allows you to do the real work of understanding and incorporation after you find that you must vomit them up. It becomes *entirely* personal! What better religion than that, especially if you share it with others. While keeping the secret of the metaphoric nature of the teachings, that is; wink-wink. Well, simple notions, still in a puppy-stage, here, and left that way for decades, but re-visited occasionally. You may also gather a hint of the state and extent of pollution of my Christianity by my Zen practice, and experience. I've heard other folks express that they had first to become a good Zen Buddhist practitioner before they could ever have become a good Christian. Any, err-r, thoughts? ;-) --Joe Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Joe, I'm mostly interested in how someone puts what they call 'zen' into practice than how they acquired it. Of course
Re: True Christianity? ...WAS ---- [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
In the most common conversations I have with my co-religinists, faith is not belief. it is acting in accordance with God's will, giving the outcome over to God. we don't know how things will turn out, we have faith that in acting not out of our self, not out of fear, but in accordance with what we are called to do right now, in accordance with love, we need not worry about the outcome. Faith is how you live, not what one believes in. I hear different ideas on the radio or tv but again most face to face discussions I have had are as I describe. On Dec 15, 2012 2:17 AM, Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: Chris, The 'heart' of Christianity is FAITH, which is another word for 'belief'. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote: Well, as my Episcopal t-shirt says below, belief is not at the heart of Christianity, rather the action of worshipping in community is. There is a tremendous variety of beliefs in my church at least. it is fun to have a variety of beliefs but it's peripheral. I find it easier to speak to folks with less out there beliefs at coffee hour, but fulfilling to speak with anyone when I have an open heart or ears. Metaphor is sort of a timid word, howevere. But there is I am sure some group of metaphor believers around. (#10 I believe is not strictly true - at least in.Charlotte NC there was a church of speaking in tongues, and I think snake handling tends to go along with that 'charismatic' sect. I think most serious people of any religion do not read the Bible or anything else looking for scientific truths, but for external input that clarifies our ability to accept Creation as it is now and respond appropriately. Top Ten Reasons to be an Episcopalian: (from the comedian Robin Williams, who is an Episcopalian, on a recent HBO special) 10. No snake handling. 9. You can believe in dinosaurs. 8. Male and female God created them; male and female we ordain them. 7. You don't have to check your brains at the door. 6. Pew aerobics. 5. Church year is color-coded. 4. Free wine on Sunday. 3. All of the pageantry - none of the guilt. 2. You don't have to know how to swim to get baptized. And the Number One reason to be an Episcopalian: 1. No matter what you believe, there's bound to be at least one other Episcopalian who agrees with you. Copyright © 2002 St. Augustine by-the-Sea On Dec 14, 2012 2:26 PM, Joe desert_woodworker@... wrote: Bill!, It would be like being a Christian but not believing Jesus was the Son of God. You raise a point that's long been *very* interesting to me. I wonder about the case of someone who takes the whole Christian/Jewish story as metaphor. Can such a person be a good Christian? Or, does *everyone* take the Christian story as metaphor? I suppose that such a person will -- or can -- be good, in all ways. And I suspect that such a person believes that the real story, the true picture of reality in its depth and heights, is not and cannot be encapsulated in any story, person, historical event, or even metaphor, nor via any conceivable thread of reasoning, nor science or philosophy. This leaves the picture open to appreciation as a mystery, which is a pretty good state of affairs, I think. The metaphor 'just' gives a structure by which to approach the reality, because there's no other way to preserve or make available the lived tradition, other than to encapsulate it, *SOMEHOW*, for transmission to each generation. That's a big just! In other words, the metaphor serves as a vehicle for transmission of certain clues and cues for the practitioner, which themselves serve as a Yoga or a ladder for the practitioner. I like to think that the truest Christians -- the Christians most intimate with Christian truths -- are the ones who accept the tradition as metaphor. But I believe this is heresy in my (previous) Church! Yet, it may simply be Secret. For example: the tradition is taught as literal truth, but practitioners must simply come to their own understanding of it, as metaphor, a metaphor for them which impinges on the reality of life and opens windows upon Human nature and relationships, and upon all of Nature. No one tells you that you must do this. And this is, therefore, the only way that such implausible stories can actually be useful to a person, spiritually and intellectually: one builds one's life and behavior in the light of the metaphor, and in appreciation of the metaphor. The tradition gracefully allows one to do this. It only forces down one's throat the implausible literal stories, and allows you to do the real work of understanding and incorporation after you find that you must vomit them up. It becomes *entirely* personal! What better religion than that, especially if
True Christianity? ...WAS ---- [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Chris, Metaphor is sort of a timid word, howevere. That's a *very* interesting take. I don't completely understand what you have in mind. I take it to heart, but I'll work around it for now. To be clear about how I use or understand metaphor here, I'll say that the Christian story -- all, or part of it-- is either actually and really true; or else, it is metaphor. What could the metaphor be? Well, what would YOU say? Can you state one (metaphor) that would encapsulate Christian belief, teaching, and practice, Chris? A partially adequate one that I am aware of is: The Good in us is constantly being crucified; but, it resurrects! (coincidence?: this is a bit like, The Three Poisons of Greed, Hatred and Ignorance Arise Endlessly; I Vow to Abandon Them!). This makes a start, at least. That's the Metaphor for the moment. The whole Christian story, then, is an Allegory, more or less, an allegory (and a gory one) of the living of a Christian life. Oh, it gets awfully complicated, due to the threads going back through the Old Testament, and elements given as evidence there of a phenomenon called Prophecy, and all sorts of events documented there supposed to be direct interventions of God, performed miraculously with supernatural energies, which are, after all, in the nature of God, continuing in the same fashion in the Gospels, through the person(s) of Jesus and his Father in Heaven. I don't see the timidity yet, but I won't dwell on that. You can probably express what you mean. Granted, this metaphoric understanding and practice of the tradition is not much based on an active, actual-standing, BELIEF in God, nor upon a direct and explicit FAITH in doing (nor even *knowing*) the Will of God for our lives or for others, the Community. Those (unnecessary?) details are left as a mystery, and are not even named or mentioned explicitly. They lodge nicely in the cloud of unknowing, if anywhere. It's like the directness and intimacy one feels in practicing Shikantaza: one is becoming clearer, simpler, and more intimate by putting down what arises, no matter WHAT arises, simply by dropping, dropping, not feeding, not following. The metaphor, once understood, can be forgotten, and need not be held constantly before the mind. It is *not* a Koan. It is like an appreciation, which flavors everything, as the culture and climate and cuisine of a Place does. And with that appreciation, we can still smile on our brothers and sisters, and our heart can be open to their needs directly, not through a reliance on an other-power, or an other-presence. But can we also worship with them? I'd say Yes. I think that ritual and group practice of this kind and other kinds (simple Assembly, or Meeting, as in Quaker practice, or Zazen as in Zen circles) graciously makes visible the invisible, which must always remain *invisible* (the Absolute). But as we see in Zen awakening, everything reflects, shines, displays, exemplifies the Absolute, however. When we awaken, we see that, in several ways. So, yes, ritual and gathering and worship are all to the good, and keep one fresh and healthy; these practices are like Meals, where the parts of the One-Being meet to remind themselves that they are One. That's all I've got at the moment, on this. Microphone now back to you! w/ Thanks, --Joe Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote: Well, as my Episcopal t-shirt says below, belief is not at the heart of Christianity, rather the action of worshipping in community is. There is a tremendous variety of beliefs in my church at least. it is fun to have a variety of beliefs but it's peripheral. I find it easier to speak to folks with less out there beliefs at coffee hour, but fulfilling to speak with anyone when I have an open heart or ears. Metaphor is sort of a timid word, howevere. But there is I am sure some group of metaphor believers around. (#10 I believe is not strictly true - at least in.Charlotte NC there was a church of speaking in tongues, and I think snake handling tends to go along with that 'charismatic' sect. I think most serious people of any religion do not read the Bible or anything else looking for scientific truths, but for external input that clarifies our ability to accept Creation as it is now and respond appropriately. [snip] Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com *
True Christianity? ...WAS ---- [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Sorry, but Faith is not necessarily another word for belief . . . all traditions use this expression. Grace is another word bandied about; to the secularist, we could just call these things, good luck, or a sense of security. Tillich made reference to faith, and all things in Christianity, in terms of 'the ground of being'. So, now we are back to presence. I have heard Zen Masters use the term 'faith' on many occassions. Lou Reed sang, 'you need a busload of faith to get by'. If you don't have faith in your own zazen, then why do it? Faith is stupid, dumb, superstitious, useful, necessary, not necessary, etc . . . but it does not necessarily have anything to do with belief systems. NLP creates great space for faith. in my estimation, faith has to do with action, taking action, which last time I checked none of us are able to stop in the mechanical universe in which we live. zendervish --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Chris, The 'heart' of Christianity is FAITH, which is another word for 'belief'. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@ wrote: Well, as my Episcopal t-shirt says below, belief is not at the heart of Christianity, rather the action of worshipping in community is. There is a tremendous variety of beliefs in my church at least. it is fun to have a variety of beliefs but it's peripheral. I find it easier to speak to folks with less out there beliefs at coffee hour, but fulfilling to speak with anyone when I have an open heart or ears. Metaphor is sort of a timid word, howevere. But there is I am sure some group of metaphor believers around. (#10 I believe is not strictly true - at least in.Charlotte NC there was a church of speaking in tongues, and I think snake handling tends to go along with that 'charismatic' sect. I think most serious people of any religion do not read the Bible or anything else looking for scientific truths, but for external input that clarifies our ability to accept Creation as it is now and respond appropriately. Top Ten Reasons to be an Episcopalian: (from the comedian Robin Williams, who is an Episcopalian, on a recent HBO special) 10. No snake handling. 9. You can believe in dinosaurs. 8. Male and female God created them; male and female we ordain them. 7. You don't have to check your brains at the door. 6. Pew aerobics. 5. Church year is color-coded. 4. Free wine on Sunday. 3. All of the pageantry - none of the guilt. 2. You don't have to know how to swim to get baptized. And the Number One reason to be an Episcopalian: 1. No matter what you believe, there's bound to be at least one other Episcopalian who agrees with you. Copyright © 2002 St. Augustine by-the-Sea On Dec 14, 2012 2:26 PM, Joe desert_woodworker@ wrote: Bill!, It would be like being a Christian but not believing Jesus was the Son of God. You raise a point that's long been *very* interesting to me. I wonder about the case of someone who takes the whole Christian/Jewish story as metaphor. Can such a person be a good Christian? Or, does *everyone* take the Christian story as metaphor? I suppose that such a person will -- or can -- be good, in all ways. And I suspect that such a person believes that the real story, the true picture of reality in its depth and heights, is not and cannot be encapsulated in any story, person, historical event, or even metaphor, nor via any conceivable thread of reasoning, nor science or philosophy. This leaves the picture open to appreciation as a mystery, which is a pretty good state of affairs, I think. The metaphor 'just' gives a structure by which to approach the reality, because there's no other way to preserve or make available the lived tradition, other than to encapsulate it, *SOMEHOW*, for transmission to each generation. That's a big just! In other words, the metaphor serves as a vehicle for transmission of certain clues and cues for the practitioner, which themselves serve as a Yoga or a ladder for the practitioner. I like to think that the truest Christians -- the Christians most intimate with Christian truths -- are the ones who accept the tradition as metaphor. But I believe this is heresy in my (previous) Church! Yet, it may simply be Secret. For example: the tradition is taught as literal truth, but practitioners must simply come to their own understanding of it, as metaphor, a metaphor for them which impinges on the reality of life and opens windows upon Human nature and relationships, and upon all of Nature. No one tells you that you must do this. And this is, therefore, the only way that such implausible stories can actually be useful to a person, spiritually and intellectually: one builds one's life and behavior in the light of the metaphor, and in
Re: True Christianity? ...WAS ---- [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
On Dec 15, 2012 9:18 AM, Joe desert_woodwor...@yahoo.com wrote: Chris, Metaphor is sort of a timid word, howevere. Effen glass keyboards I That's a *very* interesting take. I don't completely understand what you have in mind. I take it to heart, but I'll work around it for now. The word I almost put was Myth but that seems as devalued as metaphor in this practically post poetic world. But words are not the issue. To be clear about how I use or understand metaphor here, I'll say that the Christian story -- all, or part of it-- is either actually and really true; or else, it is metaphor. What could the metaphor be? Well, what would YOU say? Right here right now! I often think if you believe in God's reality, the point is beyond words one either is open to the redeeming power of love and acceptance, or not, or in between. Can you state one (metaphor) that would encapsulate Christian belief, teaching, and practice, Chris? There is nothing in our human lives that is incompatible with the full presence of the divine. Love one another as I have loved you. As you judge another so to shall you be judged. Letting go of our selves can save all creation. Each sentient being is worth saving even at the cost of pain and death. When we gather in community to share bread and wine, it is a sacred action. Creation is good. A partially adequate one that I am aware of is: The Good in us is constantly being crucified; but, it resurrects! Another good maxim. but again, in practise one has a full cup of connection and only from time to time a pithy phrase that expresses some piece of it. (coincidence?: this is a bit like, The Three Poisons of Greed, Hatred and Ignorance Arise Endlessly; I Vow to Abandon Them!). As C.S. Lewis notes, all the great moralists are saying the same thing. (Not with a dualistic notion of morality but a deeper sense of right action). This makes a start, at least. That's the Metaphor for the moment. The whole Christian story, then, is an Allegory, more or less, an allegory (and a gory one) of the living of a Christian life. Oh, it gets awfully complicated, due to the threads going back through the Old Testament, and elements given as evidence there of a phenomenon called Prophecy, and all sorts of events documented there supposed to be direct interventions of God, performed miraculously with supernatural energies, which are, after all, in the nature of God, continuing in the same fashion in the Gospels, through the person(s) of Jesus and his Father in Heaven. In my church, prophets speak to the current problems, not trying to violate the space-time continuum. I don't see the timidity yet, but I won't dwell on that. You can probably express what you mean. Granted, this metaphoric understanding and practice of the tradition is not much based on an active, actual-standing, BELIEF in God, nor upon a direct and explicit FAITH in doing (nor even *knowing*) the Will of God for our lives or for others, the Community. Those (unnecessary?) details are left as a mystery, and are not even named or mentioned explicitly. They lodge nicely in the cloud of unknowing, if anywhere. Knowing what God wants of us now is tricky. We endeavor to base our lives not on our own personal beliefs about God but on God; distinguishing the two is hard for humans, but we believe a real actually existing here and now God makes it possible. not perfectly but not worthlessly either. It's like the directness and intimacy one feels in practicing Shikantaza: one is becoming clearer, simpler, and more intimate by putting down what arises, no matter WHAT arises, simply by dropping, dropping, not feeding, not following. The metaphor, once understood, can be forgotten, and need not be held constantly before the mind. It is *not* a Koan. It is like an appreciation, which flavors everything, as the culture and climate and cuisine of a Place does. And with that appreciation, we can still smile on our brothers and sisters, and our heart can be open to their needs directly, not through a reliance on an other-power, or an other-presence. say rather smile with. there is no difference between self power and other power. at this moment, my thumbs are God's tool for making Creation good. Like Edgar, I find the ideas of physics to be useful here - from the perspective of the Creator, the moment of Creation is right now. the big bang is not before and we are not later (despite Edgar's ptime, I think the math better supports this interpretation.) But can we also worship with them? I'd say Yes. I think that ritual and group practice of this kind and other kinds (simple Assembly, or Meeting, as in Quaker practice, or Zazen as in Zen circles) graciously makes visible the invisible, which must always remain *invisible* (the Absolute). Them/us? But as we see in Zen awakening, everything reflects, shines, displays, exemplifies the Absolute, however. When we awaken, we see that, in
True Christianity? ...WAS ---- [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Chris, Thanks very much for your perspectives. One thing jumps out for me to be clear about: Joe wrote: But can we also worship with them? I'd say Yes. I think that ritual and group practice of this kind and other kinds (simple Assembly, or Meeting, as in Quaker practice, or Zazen as in Zen circles) graciously makes visible the invisible, which must always remain *invisible* (the Absolute). Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote: Them/us? Yes, Chris, I'm taking it all the way back to the beginning there, at the end. The them/us is (1.) the community of those who take the revealed tradition as actually and really true, and (2.) those who take it all, or mostly, as metaphor. I claim we CAN practice together, and can worship together. Even though we share (!) different theology, don't share BELIEF (in a personal God), and don't share a FAITH (in a personal Savior). Big step! I don't know if you agree. But for all the reasons in my previous post, I make the jump to claim we can, or that I can. --Joe PS I would not be surprised to hear that certain clergy take the whole ball of wax as metaphor, even Roman Catholic priests. They may behave officially in ways that aren't true to their metaphoric understanding, however, and we might not get to know their personal appreciations unless we get to know them well. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Edgar and Hong, I want the society I live in to act more like a family than a business...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Dear Hong, First, thanks for joining the thread. You ask a good question and the question you raise is complex. First, in traditional societies, truly disabled and needy family members were taken care of by their extended families, not the government. However one of the primary characteristics of modern Western societies is the breakdown of the extended family, and even the nuclear family to some degree, and the usurpation of many of its responsibilities by government. For that to work the government has to enforce some degree of taxation so it has the means to care for society's truly needy and disabled. One can argue the relative long term effects and benefits of more 'Darwinian' versus more 'fair and compassionate' social systems but that is currently the way things work... And you are correct to make the distinction between the truly disabled and needy, and those able to work, either by retraining or changing their life styles. And it's important to remember that all of us, if we are lucky, will eventually get old enough to join the ranks of the truly disabled and needy, so we should recognize the necessity of social compassion from one source or another Those who can work but aren't should be given aid only towards making them productive again. Those who aren't able to work will need some source of aid to survive. Another complexity is that modern industrial societies are able to produce everything populations actually need with much fewer than the number of workers available. This is an extremely important point that few yet recognize. What it means is that the work of only part of the population can produce enough for the whole population. The consequence of this is massive unemployment plus a huge number of unnecessary make work jobs to produce consumables no one actually needs just to keep everyone employed. Actually the best solution is to have everyone work fewer hours with more leisure so that everyone earns an income, and thus everyone can purchase what they need. However this would require a revolutionary restructuring of society and is not likely to happen any time soon. Sadly what is much more likely to happen is a huge increase in the unemployed poor who are unnecessary to maintain society. As these poor become more and more recognized as a non contributing drain on dwindling resources the reasons for keeping them alive diminish as well. Edgar On Dec 13, 2012, at 12:19 AM, yonyonson@... wrote: Edgar, much of what you say about free market systems I used to agree with. But, when you say public support for those truly in need, but only in a manner which does NOT perpetuate that need, how do you see this system? Public support is not only for those who are laid off and are capable of working and keeping a stable job. It is also for those with disabilities (ie. mental health, old aged, etc.) along with other factors which can include something like PTSD, addiction (which in my experience is usually a result of PTSD), etc. You might say that it is up to the family to support this member of society, but then where does your family stop and society begin? hong yeong soo On 12/12/12, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Bill, Not a good idea. The communist system in its ideal form perpetuates dependence and failure because it rewards incompetence and sloth. The ideal economic system is a free market system, but that being said there are no truly free market systems since they are all perverted by the super rich who impose rules through the public officials they buy for their benefit at the expense of lower level entrepreneurs. The only regulations constraining a free market system should be to ensure safety of products sold, and to minimize environmental effects towards sustainability. However many of the current regulations are designed to maintain the advantage of large corporations and banks. That being said there should be some public support for those truly in need, but only in a manner which does NOT perpetuate that need. The ideal political system is a meritocracy where officials gain appointments as the result of rising through an educational system designed to train them to solve actual real world problems they will encounter. That applies equally to the ranks of civil servants as well as the leaders themselves. Democracy is a huge failure, because it elects not the best qualified to solve real problems, but the best liars, bull shitters, and those most willing to prostitute themselves to their corporate and banker masters. Edgar On Dec 12, 2012, at 1:00 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, Until we
[Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Joe, I'm mostly interested in how someone puts what they call 'zen' into practice than how they acquired it. Of course in this medium the only evidence we see is written communication - a very limited medium for demonstrating Buddha Nature. But I do agree with you that for me zazen (zen meditation) is a cornerstone of all zen teachings. I can't conceive of anyone practicing zen and excluding zazen - but I guess it's possible. It would be like being a Christian but not believing Jesus was the Son of God. You could call yourself a Christian and could in fact be a very good and upright person, but I don't think the majority of your fellow-parishioners would accept you as one of them. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Joe desert_woodworker@... wrote: Bill!, Ooops! Apologies. I did not mean co-Moderator. I meant/mean _Moderator_ of the drop-out Corps. Too bad about Edgar! But the water circles down the drain, given a chance, anti-clockwise in this (N.) hemisphere. Do you think I'm being too strong? It's just that all signs show that the fellow has no experience at all of the continued practice of zazen in daily life. Thus, no practice. I do not critique him on this, as that's surely a personal choice to be made in a free society. But such ignorance on display is, well, incomprehensible in a forum of this nature. OK!, on to better things; always. Worse things can happen than that a poseur knows nothing about our practice, while pretending to. --Joe Joe desert_woodworker@ wrote: Edgar, You are co-moderator of the drop-out Corps. And you ought to be ashamed of yourself, on all counts. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
True Christianity? ...WAS ---- [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Bill!, It would be like being a Christian but not believing Jesus was the Son of God. You raise a point that's long been *very* interesting to me. I wonder about the case of someone who takes the whole Christian/Jewish story as metaphor. Can such a person be a good Christian? Or, does *everyone* take the Christian story as metaphor? I suppose that such a person will -- or can -- be good, in all ways. And I suspect that such a person believes that the real story, the true picture of reality in its depth and heights, is not and cannot be encapsulated in any story, person, historical event, or even metaphor, nor via any conceivable thread of reasoning, nor science or philosophy. This leaves the picture open to appreciation as a mystery, which is a pretty good state of affairs, I think. The metaphor 'just' gives a structure by which to approach the reality, because there's no other way to preserve or make available the lived tradition, other than to encapsulate it, *SOMEHOW*, for transmission to each generation. That's a big just! In other words, the metaphor serves as a vehicle for transmission of certain clues and cues for the practitioner, which themselves serve as a Yoga or a ladder for the practitioner. I like to think that the truest Christians -- the Christians most intimate with Christian truths -- are the ones who accept the tradition as metaphor. But I believe this is heresy in my (previous) Church! Yet, it may simply be Secret. For example: the tradition is taught as literal truth, but practitioners must simply come to their own understanding of it, as metaphor, a metaphor for them which impinges on the reality of life and opens windows upon Human nature and relationships, and upon all of Nature. No one tells you that you must do this. And this is, therefore, the only way that such implausible stories can actually be useful to a person, spiritually and intellectually: one builds one's life and behavior in the light of the metaphor, and in appreciation of the metaphor. The tradition gracefully allows one to do this. It only forces down one's throat the implausible literal stories, and allows you to do the real work of understanding and incorporation after you find that you must vomit them up. It becomes *entirely* personal! What better religion than that, especially if you share it with others. While keeping the secret of the metaphoric nature of the teachings, that is; wink-wink. Well, simple notions, still in a puppy-stage, here, and left that way for decades, but re-visited occasionally. You may also gather a hint of the state and extent of pollution of my Christianity by my Zen practice, and experience. I've heard other folks express that they had first to become a good Zen Buddhist practitioner before they could ever have become a good Christian. Any, err-r, thoughts? ;-) --Joe Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Joe, I'm mostly interested in how someone puts what they call 'zen' into practice than how they acquired it. Of course in this medium the only evidence we see is written communication - a very limited medium for demonstrating Buddha Nature. But I do agree with you that for me zazen (zen meditation) is a cornerstone of all zen teachings. I can't conceive of anyone practicing zen and excluding zazen - but I guess it's possible. It would be like being a Christian but not believing Jesus was the Son of God. You could call yourself a Christian and could in fact be a very good and upright person, but I don't think the majority of your fellow-parishioners would accept you as one of them. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: True Christianity? ...WAS ---- [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
i love the teachings of christ..and they sure go hand in hand with buddhist enlightenment...for where there is light there is truth and dare i say beauty...merry christmas to the group..merle Bill!, It would be like being a Christian but not believing Jesus was the Son of God. You raise a point that's long been *very* interesting to me. I wonder about the case of someone who takes the whole Christian/Jewish story as metaphor. Can such a person be a good Christian? Or, does *everyone* take the Christian story as metaphor? I suppose that such a person will -- or can -- be good, in all ways. And I suspect that such a person believes that the real story, the true picture of reality in its depth and heights, is not and cannot be encapsulated in any story, person, historical event, or even metaphor, nor via any conceivable thread of reasoning, nor science or philosophy. This leaves the picture open to appreciation as a mystery, which is a pretty good state of affairs, I think. The metaphor 'just' gives a structure by which to approach the reality, because there's no other way to preserve or make available the lived tradition, other than to encapsulate it, *SOMEHOW*, for transmission to each generation. That's a big just! In other words, the metaphor serves as a vehicle for transmission of certain clues and cues for the practitioner, which themselves serve as a Yoga or a ladder for the practitioner. I like to think that the truest Christians -- the Christians most intimate with Christian truths -- are the ones who accept the tradition as metaphor. But I believe this is heresy in my (previous) Church! Yet, it may simply be Secret. For example: the tradition is taught as literal truth, but practitioners must simply come to their own understanding of it, as metaphor, a metaphor for them which impinges on the reality of life and opens windows upon Human nature and relationships, and upon all of Nature. No one tells you that you must do this. And this is, therefore, the only way that such implausible stories can actually be useful to a person, spiritually and intellectually: one builds one's life and behavior in the light of the metaphor, and in appreciation of the metaphor. The tradition gracefully allows one to do this. It only forces down one's throat the implausible literal stories, and allows you to do the real work of understanding and incorporation after you find that you must vomit them up. It becomes *entirely* personal! What better religion than that, especially if you share it with others. While keeping the secret of the metaphoric nature of the teachings, that is; wink-wink. Well, simple notions, still in a puppy-stage, here, and left that way for decades, but re-visited occasionally. You may also gather a hint of the state and extent of pollution of my Christianity by my Zen practice, and experience. I've heard other folks express that they had first to become a good Zen Buddhist practitioner before they could ever have become a good Christian. Any, err-r, thoughts? ;-) --Joe Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Joe, I'm mostly interested in how someone puts what they call 'zen' into practice than how they acquired it. Of course in this medium the only evidence we see is written communication - a very limited medium for demonstrating Buddha Nature. But I do agree with you that for me zazen (zen meditation) is a cornerstone of all zen teachings. I can't conceive of anyone practicing zen and excluding zazen - but I guess it's possible. It would be like being a Christian but not believing Jesus was the Son of God. You could call yourself a Christian and could in fact be a very good and upright person, but I don't think the majority of your fellow-parishioners would accept you as one of them.
Re: True Christianity? ...WAS ---- [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Well, as my Episcopal t-shirt says below, belief is not at the heart of Christianity, rather the action of worshipping in community is. There is a tremendous variety of beliefs in my church at least. it is fun to have a variety of beliefs but it's peripheral. I find it easier to speak to folks with less out there beliefs at coffee hour, but fulfilling to speak with anyone when I have an open heart or ears. Metaphor is sort of a timid word, howevere. But there is I am sure some group of metaphor believers around. (#10 I believe is not strictly true - at least in.Charlotte NC there was a church of speaking in tongues, and I think snake handling tends to go along with that 'charismatic' sect. I think most serious people of any religion do not read the Bible or anything else looking for scientific truths, but for external input that clarifies our ability to accept Creation as it is now and respond appropriately. Top Ten Reasons to be an Episcopalian: (from the comedian Robin Williams, who is an Episcopalian, on a recent HBO special) 10. No snake handling. 9. You can believe in dinosaurs. 8. Male and female God created them; male and female we ordain them. 7. You don't have to check your brains at the door. 6. Pew aerobics. 5. Church year is color-coded. 4. Free wine on Sunday. 3. All of the pageantry - none of the guilt. 2. You don't have to know how to swim to get baptized. And the Number One reason to be an Episcopalian: 1. No matter what you believe, there's bound to be at least one other Episcopalian who agrees with you. Copyright © 2002 St. Augustine by-the-Sea On Dec 14, 2012 2:26 PM, Joe desert_woodwor...@yahoo.com wrote: Bill!, It would be like being a Christian but not believing Jesus was the Son of God. You raise a point that's long been *very* interesting to me. I wonder about the case of someone who takes the whole Christian/Jewish story as metaphor. Can such a person be a good Christian? Or, does *everyone* take the Christian story as metaphor? I suppose that such a person will -- or can -- be good, in all ways. And I suspect that such a person believes that the real story, the true picture of reality in its depth and heights, is not and cannot be encapsulated in any story, person, historical event, or even metaphor, nor via any conceivable thread of reasoning, nor science or philosophy. This leaves the picture open to appreciation as a mystery, which is a pretty good state of affairs, I think. The metaphor 'just' gives a structure by which to approach the reality, because there's no other way to preserve or make available the lived tradition, other than to encapsulate it, *SOMEHOW*, for transmission to each generation. That's a big just! In other words, the metaphor serves as a vehicle for transmission of certain clues and cues for the practitioner, which themselves serve as a Yoga or a ladder for the practitioner. I like to think that the truest Christians -- the Christians most intimate with Christian truths -- are the ones who accept the tradition as metaphor. But I believe this is heresy in my (previous) Church! Yet, it may simply be Secret. For example: the tradition is taught as literal truth, but practitioners must simply come to their own understanding of it, as metaphor, a metaphor for them which impinges on the reality of life and opens windows upon Human nature and relationships, and upon all of Nature. No one tells you that you must do this. And this is, therefore, the only way that such implausible stories can actually be useful to a person, spiritually and intellectually: one builds one's life and behavior in the light of the metaphor, and in appreciation of the metaphor. The tradition gracefully allows one to do this. It only forces down one's throat the implausible literal stories, and allows you to do the real work of understanding and incorporation after you find that you must vomit them up. It becomes *entirely* personal! What better religion than that, especially if you share it with others. While keeping the secret of the metaphoric nature of the teachings, that is; wink-wink. Well, simple notions, still in a puppy-stage, here, and left that way for decades, but re-visited occasionally. You may also gather a hint of the state and extent of pollution of my Christianity by my Zen practice, and experience. I've heard other folks express that they had first to become a good Zen Buddhist practitioner before they could ever have become a good Christian. Any, err-r, thoughts? ;-) --Joe Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Joe, I'm mostly interested in how someone puts what they call 'zen' into practice than how they acquired it. Of course in this medium the only evidence we see is written communication - a very limited medium for demonstrating Buddha Nature. But I do agree with you that for me zazen (zen meditation) is a cornerstone of all zen teachings. I can't conceive of anyone
[Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Edgar, Communism does not reward incompetence and sloth. It just removes individual rewards based on merit and replaces them with equal distribution of all wealth as common property. It encourages a holistic community. Capitalism is fueled by greed and does base rewards on individual merit. It encourages competition which results in an uneven distribution of wealth and a stratified community. Socialism is actually my favorite because it also does not reward based on merit but distributes wealth/assets based on need. It also encourages a holistic community. Political systems are not as important to me but I do favor democracies over meritocracies. Your definition below sounds good, but who designs the educational system and judges whether the problems have been solved well - or not? (This is a rhetorical question. You really don't have to answer because unless it is done democratically I would have reservations about it.) ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Bill, Not a good idea. The communist system in its ideal form perpetuates dependence and failure because it rewards incompetence and sloth. The ideal economic system is a free market system, but that being said there are no truly free market systems since they are all perverted by the super rich who impose rules through the public officials they buy for their benefit at the expense of lower level entrepreneurs. The only regulations constraining a free market system should be to ensure safety of products sold, and to minimize environmental effects towards sustainability. However many of the current regulations are designed to maintain the advantage of large corporations and banks. That being said there should be some public support for those truly in need, but only in a manner which does NOT perpetuate that need. The ideal political system is a meritocracy where officials gain appointments as the result of rising through an educational system designed to train them to solve actual real world problems they will encounter. That applies equally to the ranks of civil servants as well as the leaders themselves. Democracy is a huge failure, because it elects not the best qualified to solve real problems, but the best liars, bull shitters, and those most willing to prostitute themselves to their corporate and banker masters. Edgar On Dec 12, 2012, at 1:00 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, Until we as a society can successfully establish a communistic economic system socialism is the best system we can strive for. Right now the best we can do is try to restrain and regulate our native capitalism with wealth redistribution tactics as are employed by our current form of Keynesian economics and continue to move it closer and closer to socialism. But maybe someday we can actually aspire to communism...we can only hope. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Joe, Perhaps, but the belief in taking other people's property and redistributing it without their consent is an even more egregious attachment... Edgar On Dec 11, 2012, at 1:24 PM, Joe wrote: Chris, The question itself speaks volumes. Can one's belief in personal ownership be an attachment, a hindrance to the mind's freedom? Well done! It is certainly on-topic, and is eloquent. I'm impressed by planning and decision-making that's guided by consideration for and appreciation of others' future stewardship. I think of the Seven Generations planning of actions taken by certain Native American tribal councils, the making of decisions with a concern and consideration for how planned actions, if executed, might effect even the seventh following generation of people and culture after the elders' actions. Such planning probably could not have taken into account the arrival of Europeans in America, and I don't know if the Seven Generations principle remains in play on Native Reservations to this day. --Joe - Chris Austin-Lane chris@ wrote: Can one's belief in personal ownership be an attachment, a hindrance to the mind's freedom? It looks to me like it is, but perhaps we shouldn't argue politics and tax policy here? Rather than share my partisan arguments, let me simply state that reasonable people do disagree about these issues. Personally I am grateful to have been born into a society that believes in vaccination public schools voting research moon missions and the like. the society finds it sensible to pay me for tasks which are enjoyable and allow me to learn and to master myself, and that seems fine. I didn't create the society nor more than a bit of its wealth, so I don't feel like much more than
[Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Edgar, As you know I sign my name as 'Bill!'. That's the only non-standard exclamation point I usually use; and although I might have done so in the past I don't recall using multiple question marks - and certainly don't use them regularly. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Merle and Bill, You guys are great at adding your 's and ??'s but Bill seems to always forget his :-) Edgar On Dec 12, 2012, at 2:10 AM, Merle Lester wrote: joe..where is his grin?? merle Merle, You mean you don't see Bill!'s sly ironic grin? Or, maybe I don't see yours! ;-) --Joe Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: bill good one...we see common ground here!..merle Bill! wrote: Edgar, Until we as a society can successfully establish a communistic economic system socialism is the best system we can strive for. [snip] Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Joe and RAF, I've always referred to lotteries as 'a tax on the statistically-challenged'...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, R A Fonda rafonda@... wrote: On 12/12/2012 1:24 PM, Joe wrote: I see the evil of state and national lotteries for the reason in your final clause Very true, one might regard them as a tax on the desperate and those ignorant of the implication of statistics. They are particularly pernicious in that they make such a /few, huge /payoffs instead of a lot of much smaller ones. RAF Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
RAF, I'm going to butt in here...on one selected topic: --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, R A Fonda rafonda@... wrote: BTW, communism MUST be tyranny, as only through tyranny can confiscation (for redistribution) be empowered. That's only true if you allow the concept of private property. In a true communistic economic system all property and assets belong to the state - which is to say the society - the people. All people own all assets. There is no re-distribution because there is no distribution in the fist place. That's what communism is! ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
bi...i agree with you wholeheartly..woh we are of like mind here... so sweet...happiness is knowing another socialist!..merle Edgar, Communism does not reward incompetence and sloth. It just removes individual rewards based on merit and replaces them with equal distribution of all wealth as common property. It encourages a holistic community. Capitalism is fueled by greed and does base rewards on individual merit. It encourages competition which results in an uneven distribution of wealth and a stratified community. Socialism is actually my favorite because it also does not reward based on merit but distributes wealth/assets based on need. It also encourages a holistic community. Political systems are not as important to me but I do favor democracies over meritocracies. Your definition below sounds good, but who designs the educational system and judges whether the problems have been solved well - or not? (This is a rhetorical question. You really don't have to answer because unless it is done democratically I would have reservations about it.) ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Bill, Not a good idea. The communist system in its ideal form perpetuates dependence and failure because it rewards incompetence and sloth. The ideal economic system is a free market system, but that being said there are no truly free market systems since they are all perverted by the super rich who impose rules through the public officials they buy for their benefit at the expense of lower level entrepreneurs. The only regulations constraining a free market system should be to ensure safety of products sold, and to minimize environmental effects towards sustainability. However many of the current regulations are designed to maintain the advantage of large corporations and banks. That being said there should be some public support for those truly in need, but only in a manner which does NOT perpetuate that need. The ideal political system is a meritocracy where officials gain appointments as the result of rising through an educational system designed to train them to solve actual real world problems they will encounter. That applies equally to the ranks of civil servants as well as the leaders themselves. Democracy is a huge failure, because it elects not the best qualified to solve real problems, but the best liars, bull shitters, and those most willing to prostitute themselves to their corporate and banker masters. Edgar On Dec 12, 2012, at 1:00 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, Until we as a society can successfully establish a communistic economic system socialism is the best system we can strive for. Right now the best we can do is try to restrain and regulate our native capitalism with wealth redistribution tactics as are employed by our current form of Keynesian economics and continue to move it closer and closer to socialism. But maybe someday we can actually aspire to communism...we can only hope. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Joe, Perhaps, but the belief in taking other people's property and redistributing it without their consent is an even more egregious attachment... Edgar On Dec 11, 2012, at 1:24 PM, Joe wrote: Chris, The question itself speaks volumes. Can one's belief in personal ownership be an attachment, a hindrance to the mind's freedom? Well done! It is certainly on-topic, and is eloquent. I'm impressed by planning and decision-making that's guided by consideration for and appreciation of others' future stewardship. I think of the Seven Generations planning of actions taken by certain Native American tribal councils, the making of decisions with a concern and consideration for how planned actions, if executed, might effect even the seventh following generation of people and culture after the elders' actions. Such planning probably could not have taken into account the arrival of Europeans in America, and I don't know if the Seven Generations principle remains in play on Native Reservations to this day. --Joe - Chris Austin-Lane chris@ wrote: Can one's belief in personal ownership be an attachment, a hindrance to the mind's freedom? It looks to me like it is, but perhaps we shouldn't argue politics and tax policy here? Rather than share my partisan arguments, let me simply state that reasonable people do disagree about these issues. Personally I am grateful to have been born into a society that believes in vaccination public schools voting research moon missions and the like. the society finds it sensible to pay me for tasks which are enjoyable and allow me to learn
Re: [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Dear Hong, First, thanks for joining the thread. You ask a good question and the question you raise is complex. First, in traditional societies, truly disabled and needy family members were taken care of by their extended families, not the government. However one of the primary characteristics of modern Western societies is the breakdown of the extended family, and even the nuclear family to some degree, and the usurpation of many of its responsibilities by government. For that to work the government has to enforce some degree of taxation so it has the means to care for society's truly needy and disabled. One can argue the relative long term effects and benefits of more 'Darwinian' versus more 'fair and compassionate' social systems but that is currently the way things work... And you are correct to make the distinction between the truly disabled and needy, and those able to work, either by retraining or changing their life styles. And it's important to remember that all of us, if we are lucky, will eventually get old enough to join the ranks of the truly disabled and needy, so we should recognize the necessity of social compassion from one source or another Those who can work but aren't should be given aid only towards making them productive again. Those who aren't able to work will need some source of aid to survive. Another complexity is that modern industrial societies are able to produce everything populations actually need with much fewer than the number of workers available. This is an extremely important point that few yet recognize. What it means is that the work of only part of the population can produce enough for the whole population. The consequence of this is massive unemployment plus a huge number of unnecessary make work jobs to produce consumables no one actually needs just to keep everyone employed. Actually the best solution is to have everyone work fewer hours with more leisure so that everyone earns an income, and thus everyone can purchase what they need. However this would require a revolutionary restructuring of society and is not likely to happen any time soon. Sadly what is much more likely to happen is a huge increase in the unemployed poor who are unnecessary to maintain society. As these poor become more and more recognized as a non contributing drain on dwindling resources the reasons for keeping them alive diminish as well. Edgar On Dec 13, 2012, at 12:19 AM, yonyon...@gmail.com wrote: Edgar, much of what you say about free market systems I used to agree with. But, when you say public support for those truly in need, but only in a manner which does NOT perpetuate that need, how do you see this system? Public support is not only for those who are laid off and are capable of working and keeping a stable job. It is also for those with disabilities (ie. mental health, old aged, etc.) along with other factors which can include something like PTSD, addiction (which in my experience is usually a result of PTSD), etc. You might say that it is up to the family to support this member of society, but then where does your family stop and society begin? hong yeong soo On 12/12/12, Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: Bill, Not a good idea. The communist system in its ideal form perpetuates dependence and failure because it rewards incompetence and sloth. The ideal economic system is a free market system, but that being said there are no truly free market systems since they are all perverted by the super rich who impose rules through the public officials they buy for their benefit at the expense of lower level entrepreneurs. The only regulations constraining a free market system should be to ensure safety of products sold, and to minimize environmental effects towards sustainability. However many of the current regulations are designed to maintain the advantage of large corporations and banks. That being said there should be some public support for those truly in need, but only in a manner which does NOT perpetuate that need. The ideal political system is a meritocracy where officials gain appointments as the result of rising through an educational system designed to train them to solve actual real world problems they will encounter. That applies equally to the ranks of civil servants as well as the leaders themselves. Democracy is a huge failure, because it elects not the best qualified to solve real problems, but the best liars, bull shitters, and those most willing to prostitute themselves to their corporate and banker masters. Edgar On Dec 12, 2012, at 1:00 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, Until we as a society can successfully establish a communistic economic system socialism is the best system we can strive for. Right now the best we can do is try to restrain and regulate our native capitalism with wealth redistribution tactics as are employed by our current form of
Re: [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
RAF. Checked out your recommendations. Not impressed. In fact, seems close to scientific racism. Why are African-Americans singled out as particularly prone to violence due to their genetics? Weren`t they taken forcibily from their homeland by Europeans? Wasn`t the American Civil War fought by white Americans about slavery? The Spanish Inquisition? Pol Pot? Stalin? Hitler? In the UK we don`t have any particular problem with the Black population. Sorry, but it seems all culture and history driven driven to me. What`s next - the resurgence of phrenology? Mike --- On Thu, 13/12/12, R A Fonda rafo...@frontier.com wrote: From: R A Fonda rafo...@frontier.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 13 December, 2012, 3:11 On 12/12/2012 3:21 AM, mike brown wrote: I`m not sure that certain ethic groups do have a higher propensity to wage war. It sounds as if you are unfamiliar with both the anthropology and genetic data. For the anthropology I suggest Napoleon Chagnon; for a glimpse at the tip of a genetic iceberg you could start here: http://search.yahoo.com/search?ei=utf-8fr=ytff1-w3ip=warrior%20gene%20wikitype=W3i_YT,192,2_1,Search,20110210,17364,0,16,0 It seems much more to do with historical factors and culture. Culture is just a manifestation of genetics. Canadians basically share the same ethnicity as Amercans Neither Canadians nor Americans are ethnies, but Canadians are still mostly of the Euro-descendant genetic kindred. If you look at the US crime statistics you will see that there is almost an order of magnitude difference in commission of violent crime between Euros and people of African extraction; back to genetics. RAF
Re: [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
My introduction to formal practice was thusly: I read Buddha by Karen Armstrong, found that attentively reading about the eight fold path lead me to the feeling I needed to fix my work situation to accord with right livelihood, so I determined to leave my job and become a stay at home parent. Figuring if I was going to take this path that seriously, I should try the meditation. So I read my father's (already dead by that time) copy of the Three Pillars of Zen, rather intensely, probably more than once. Resolving to set my foot upon the path, I did find innumerable bodhisattvas springing up to assist. I found a local Zendo that had hours of sitting that I could make, arranged to go to an intro session in a month or two, and set about readying myself to sit on a zafu for 25 minutes. I read some Thich Nhat Hanh intro to sitting, different chapters on numbering the breath on the intakes, numbering the breaths on the exhales, etc. I gave it away to the Zendo library in a fit of burn the writings zeal so I'm not sure. I sat five minutes the first day I think and worked my way up to 25. So I have a fond spot in my heart for The Three Pillars of Zen, despite ending up with much mellower training in a more Soto lineage. Thanks, Chris Austin-Lane Sent from a cell phone On Dec 12, 2012, at 11:09, Joe desert_woodwor...@yahoo.com wrote: Chris, Merle, That's right!, it is great! Kapleau Roshi obtained very special permission from the Roshi and from the students to take and to publish those records, for all our benefit, in his book THE THREE PILLARS OF ZEN. Kapleau's mission was to give a flavor of formal Zen practice before it was much established in the West. Very influential and successful, his book. Kapleau had been a court reporter during the Nuremberg trials, and his shorthand was good, so I think we can trust his Dokusan accounts, even if they have been edited. --Joe Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote: Tho the Three Pillars of Zen has a great section of dokusan transcripts. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Chris, Why do you sit if you don't enjoy sitting? If it's a pain the legs, ass or mind? This is a question all Zenners should ask themselves. Why if it is such a chore that they have to time themselves so they will get to stop do they do it? Is torturing your body this way Zen? It reminds me of the old Christian nonsense that one has to suffer to be be a good person Edgar On Dec 13, 2012, at 10:11 AM, ChrisAustinLane wrote: My introduction to formal practice was thusly: I read Buddha by Karen Armstrong, found that attentively reading about the eight fold path lead me to the feeling I needed to fix my work situation to accord with right livelihood, so I determined to leave my job and become a stay at home parent. Figuring if I was going to take this path that seriously, I should try the meditation. So I read my father's (already dead by that time) copy of the Three Pillars of Zen, rather intensely, probably more than once. Resolving to set my foot upon the path, I did find innumerable bodhisattvas springing up to assist. I found a local Zendo that had hours of sitting that I could make, arranged to go to an intro session in a month or two, and set about readying myself to sit on a zafu for 25 minutes. I read some Thich Nhat Hanh intro to sitting, different chapters on numbering the breath on the intakes, numbering the breaths on the exhales, etc. I gave it away to the Zendo library in a fit of burn the writings zeal so I'm not sure. I sat five minutes the first day I think and worked my way up to 25. So I have a fond spot in my heart for The Three Pillars of Zen, despite ending up with much mellower training in a more Soto lineage. Thanks, Chris Austin-Lane Sent from a cell phone On Dec 12, 2012, at 11:09, Joe desert_woodwor...@yahoo.com wrote: Chris, Merle, That's right!, it is great! Kapleau Roshi obtained very special permission from the Roshi and from the students to take and to publish those records, for all our benefit, in his book THE THREE PILLARS OF ZEN. Kapleau's mission was to give a flavor of formal Zen practice before it was much established in the West. Very influential and successful, his book. Kapleau had been a court reporter during the Nuremberg trials, and his shorthand was good, so I think we can trust his Dokusan accounts, even if they have been edited. --Joe Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote: Tho the Three Pillars of Zen has a great section of dokusan transcripts. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Thanks for your reply Edgar. Living in a higher poverty stricken area, now, I've seen and lived firsthand those complexities. I would say real and focused social work is one of the most beneficial solutions currently. At its best, we can really look at the problem and work on things for each individual; set goals, therapy, etc. I appreciate your compassion. hong yeong soo On 12/13/12, Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: Dear Hong, First, thanks for joining the thread. You ask a good question and the question you raise is complex. First, in traditional societies, truly disabled and needy family members were taken care of by their extended families, not the government. However one of the primary characteristics of modern Western societies is the breakdown of the extended family, and even the nuclear family to some degree, and the usurpation of many of its responsibilities by government. For that to work the government has to enforce some degree of taxation so it has the means to care for society's truly needy and disabled. One can argue the relative long term effects and benefits of more 'Darwinian' versus more 'fair and compassionate' social systems but that is currently the way things work... And you are correct to make the distinction between the truly disabled and needy, and those able to work, either by retraining or changing their life styles. And it's important to remember that all of us, if we are lucky, will eventually get old enough to join the ranks of the truly disabled and needy, so we should recognize the necessity of social compassion from one source or another Those who can work but aren't should be given aid only towards making them productive again. Those who aren't able to work will need some source of aid to survive. Another complexity is that modern industrial societies are able to produce everything populations actually need with much fewer than the number of workers available. This is an extremely important point that few yet recognize. What it means is that the work of only part of the population can produce enough for the whole population. The consequence of this is massive unemployment plus a huge number of unnecessary make work jobs to produce consumables no one actually needs just to keep everyone employed. Actually the best solution is to have everyone work fewer hours with more leisure so that everyone earns an income, and thus everyone can purchase what they need. However this would require a revolutionary restructuring of society and is not likely to happen any time soon. Sadly what is much more likely to happen is a huge increase in the unemployed poor who are unnecessary to maintain society. As these poor become more and more recognized as a non contributing drain on dwindling resources the reasons for keeping them alive diminish as well. Edgar On Dec 13, 2012, at 12:19 AM, yonyon...@gmail.com wrote: Edgar, much of what you say about free market systems I used to agree with. But, when you say public support for those truly in need, but only in a manner which does NOT perpetuate that need, how do you see this system? Public support is not only for those who are laid off and are capable of working and keeping a stable job. It is also for those with disabilities (ie. mental health, old aged, etc.) along with other factors which can include something like PTSD, addiction (which in my experience is usually a result of PTSD), etc. You might say that it is up to the family to support this member of society, but then where does your family stop and society begin? hong yeong soo On 12/12/12, Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: Bill, Not a good idea. The communist system in its ideal form perpetuates dependence and failure because it rewards incompetence and sloth. The ideal economic system is a free market system, but that being said there are no truly free market systems since they are all perverted by the super rich who impose rules through the public officials they buy for their benefit at the expense of lower level entrepreneurs. The only regulations constraining a free market system should be to ensure safety of products sold, and to minimize environmental effects towards sustainability. However many of the current regulations are designed to maintain the advantage of large corporations and banks. That being said there should be some public support for those truly in need, but only in a manner which does NOT perpetuate that need. The ideal political system is a meritocracy where officials gain appointments as the result of rising through an educational system designed to train them to solve actual real world problems they will encounter. That applies equally to the ranks of civil servants as well as the leaders themselves. Democracy is a huge failure, because it elects not the best qualified to solve real problems, but the best liars, bull shitters, and
Re: [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Mike, On 12/13/12, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: RAF. Checked out your recommendations. Not impressed. In fact, seems close to scientific racism. Why are African-Americans singled out as particularly prone to violence due to their genetics? Because a European or Euro-centric person conducted the study. Weren`t they taken forcibily from their homeland by Europeans? Not only that...400 years of enslavement and imperialism/colonization. Wasn`t the American Civil War fought by white Americans about slavery? No, African Americans also fought. And it wasn't completely about slavery either. The Spanish Inquisition? Pol Pot? Stalin? Hitler? In the UK we don`t have any particular problem with the Black population. I beg to differ. I have a few African UK friends through FB that deal with racism to this day. Also, apartheid didn't end that long ago, did it? And how about the discrimination against the indigenous people of Australia? Sorry, but it seems all culture and history driven driven to me. What`s next - the resurgence of phrenology? Mike, read the Willie Lynch letter some time and learn some of the techniques Europeans used to perpetuate the dependent psychology of their slaves. Which is still pervasive today. Sorry to move so far off topic here. To keep it on...I just recently read about a woman Angel Kyodo Williams, a zen priestess/teacher from NY. Have you heard about her Joe? She's written _Being Black: Zen and the Art of Living with Fearlessness and Grace_. Regards, hong yeong soo Mike --- On Thu, 13/12/12, R A Fonda rafo...@frontier.com wrote: From: R A Fonda rafo...@frontier.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 13 December, 2012, 3:11 On 12/12/2012 3:21 AM, mike brown wrote: I`m not sure that certain ethic groups do have a higher propensity to wage war. It sounds as if you are unfamiliar with both the anthropology and genetic data. For the anthropology I suggest Napoleon Chagnon; for a glimpse at the tip of a genetic iceberg you could start here: http://search.yahoo.com/search?ei=utf-8fr=ytff1-w3ip=warrior%20gene%20wikitype=W3i_YT,192,2_1,Search,20110210,17364,0,16,0 It seems much more to do with historical factors and culture. Culture is just a manifestation of genetics. Canadians basically share the same ethnicity as Amercans Neither Canadians nor Americans are ethnies, but Canadians are still mostly of the Euro-descendant genetic kindred. If you look at the US crime statistics you will see that there is almost an order of magnitude difference in commission of violent crime between Euros and people of African extraction; back to genetics. RAF Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Chris, I've bought multiple copies of THE THREE PILLARS over the years, and given them away to friends. I first found it in about 1975, I think, during a period of intensifying yoga practice for me, and in the midst of the Hindu-styled meditation sitting I did each day, plus miles of jogging. The body was prepared to meet a Ch'an teacher in NYC in Feb., 1979. Four months later in May I attended my first 7-day intensive Ch'an retreat with Sheng Yen after he'd been in USA for two years and had a strong sangha of young students, and I had that first opening, which was the largest and strongest, but there have been others over the years also with Sheng Yen, and then with Diamond Sangha teachers out West in Arizona. Sheng Yen had himself read THE THREE PILLARS, in Chinese, and thought it was good for us to read, also. Most of us had read it long ago, by that time. He once asked us all if any of us thought that the account by Yaeko of her developing practice and her awakening, in her correspondence with Harada Roshi, was anything really special, or big. Were we impressed by it? Many of us thought so and raised our hands, and so did I. Sheng Yen told us, That's just the beginning. I found that he was right! An opening is just that, an opening. Sheng Yen called it, Entering the Door, entering the door of Ch'an. I still give that book to people. Used copies. The older printings of the book have a nicer feel to them, and I think the brown cover with the black symbol is warm and inviting. Amazing that your Dad had read THREE PILLARS! Must be great to be a 2nd generation Zen practitioner in USA. I wonder if your Dad also sat. Attended sesshin? Did you find changes in him if he practiced? And if he practiced, did your Mom also take up the practice, too? Wondering how their practice might have affected yours, or the operation of the family. Sorry, big question, maybe. Condolences on your loss of your Dad. My Dad is also gone, over 35 years, now. --Joe ChrisAustinLane chris@... wrote: My introduction to formal practice was thusly: I read Buddha by Karen Armstrong, found that attentively reading about the eight fold path lead me to the feeling I needed to fix my work situation to accord with right livelihood, so I determined to leave my job and become a stay at home parent. Figuring if I was going to take this path that seriously, I should try the meditation. So I read my father's (already dead by that time) copy of the Three Pillars of Zen, rather intensely, probably more than once. Resolving to set my foot upon the path, I did find innumerable bodhisattvas springing up to assist. I found a local Zendo that had hours of sitting that I could make, arranged to go to an intro session in a month or two, and set about readying myself to sit on a zafu for 25 minutes. I read some Thich Nhat Hanh intro to sitting, different chapters on numbering the breath on the intakes, numbering the breaths on the exhales, etc. I gave it away to the Zendo library in a fit of burn the writings zeal so I'm not sure. I sat five minutes the first day I think and worked my way up to 25. So I have a fond spot in my heart for The Three Pillars of Zen, despite ending up with much mellower training in a more Soto lineage. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
you betcha..edgar..spot on reduce working hours..share the load...again that wretched work share...tut tut... merle Dear Hong, First, thanks for joining the thread. You ask a good question and the question you raise is complex. First, in traditional societies, truly disabled and needy family members were taken care of by their extended families, not the government. However one of the primary characteristics of modern Western societies is the breakdown of the extended family, and even the nuclear family to some degree, and the usurpation of many of its responsibilities by government. For that to work the government has to enforce some degree of taxation so it has the means to care for society's truly needy and disabled. One can argue the relative long term effects and benefits of more 'Darwinian' versus more 'fair and compassionate' social systems but that is currently the way things work... And you are correct to make the distinction between the truly disabled and needy, and those able to work, either by retraining or changing their life styles. And it's important to remember that all of us, if we are lucky, will eventually get old enough to join the ranks of the truly disabled and needy, so we should recognize the necessity of social compassion from one source or another Those who can work but aren't should be given aid only towards making them productive again. Those who aren't able to work will need some source of aid to survive. Another complexity is that modern industrial societies are able to produce everything populations actually need with much fewer than the number of workers available. This is an extremely important point that few yet recognize. What it means is that the work of only part of the population can produce enough for the whole population. The consequence of this is massive unemployment plus a huge number of unnecessary make work jobs to produce consumables no one actually needs just to keep everyone employed. Actually the best solution is to have everyone work fewer hours with more leisure so that everyone earns an income, and thus everyone can purchase what they need. However this would require a revolutionary restructuring of society and is not likely to happen any time soon. Sadly what is much more likely to happen is a huge increase in the unemployed poor who are unnecessary to maintain society. As these poor become more and more recognized as a non contributing drain on dwindling resources the reasons for keeping them alive diminish as well. Edgar On Dec 13, 2012, at 12:19 AM, yonyon...@gmail.com wrote: Edgar, much of what you say about free market systems I used to agree with. But, when you say public support for those truly in need, but only in a manner which does NOT perpetuate that need, how do you see this system? Public support is not only for those who are laid off and are capable of working and keeping a stable job. It is also for those with disabilities (ie. mental health, old aged, etc.) along with other factors which can include something like PTSD, addiction (which in my experience is usually a result of PTSD), etc. You might say that it is up to the family to support this member of society, but then where does your family stop and society begin? hong yeong soo On 12/12/12, Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: Bill, Not a good idea. The communist system in its ideal form perpetuates dependence and failure because it rewards incompetence and sloth. The ideal economic system is a free market system, but that being said there are no truly free market systems since they are all perverted by the super rich who impose rules through the public officials they buy for their benefit at the expense of lower level entrepreneurs. The only regulations constraining a free market system should be to ensure safety of products sold, and to minimize environmental effects towards sustainability. However many of the current regulations are designed to maintain the advantage of large corporations and banks. That being said there should be some public support for those truly in need, but only in a manner which does NOT perpetuate that need. The ideal political system is a meritocracy where officials gain appointments as the result of rising through an educational system designed to train them to solve actual real world problems they will encounter. That applies equally to the ranks of civil servants as well as the leaders themselves. Democracy is a huge failure, because it elects not the best qualified to solve real problems, but the best liars, bull shitters, and those most willing to prostitute themselves to their corporate and banker masters. Edgar On Dec 12, 2012, at 1:00 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, Until we as a society can successfully establish a communistic economic system socialism is the best system we can strive for. Right now the best we can do is try to
Re: [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
edgar..it's the growth industry..grow till you drop...outmode economic principles.. we need to pull our heads in...with global warming and climate change we need to steer the goodship lollypop to new technologies to save the planet.. .producing endless mindless goods to satisfy the cravings of growth is downright and frankly stupid...merle Dear Hong, First, thanks for joining the thread. You ask a good question and the question you raise is complex. First, in traditional societies, truly disabled and needy family members were taken care of by their extended families, not the government. However one of the primary characteristics of modern Western societies is the breakdown of the extended family, and even the nuclear family to some degree, and the usurpation of many of its responsibilities by government. For that to work the government has to enforce some degree of taxation so it has the means to care for society's truly needy and disabled. One can argue the relative long term effects and benefits of more 'Darwinian' versus more 'fair and compassionate' social systems but that is currently the way things work... And you are correct to make the distinction between the truly disabled and needy, and those able to work, either by retraining or changing their life styles. And it's important to remember that all of us, if we are lucky, will eventually get old enough to join the ranks of the truly disabled and needy, so we should recognize the necessity of social compassion from one source or another Those who can work but aren't should be given aid only towards making them productive again. Those who aren't able to work will need some source of aid to survive. Another complexity is that modern industrial societies are able to produce everything populations actually need with much fewer than the number of workers available. This is an extremely important point that few yet recognize. What it means is that the work of only part of the population can produce enough for the whole population. The consequence of this is massive unemployment plus a huge number of unnecessary make work jobs to produce consumables no one actually needs just to keep everyone employed. Actually the best solution is to have everyone work fewer hours with more leisure so that everyone earns an income, and thus everyone can purchase what they need. However this would require a revolutionary restructuring of society and is not likely to happen any time soon. Sadly what is much more likely to happen is a huge increase in the unemployed poor who are unnecessary to maintain society. As these poor become more and more recognized as a non contributing drain on dwindling resources the reasons for keeping them alive diminish as well. Edgar On Dec 13, 2012, at 12:19 AM, yonyon...@gmail.com wrote: Edgar, much of what you say about free market systems I used to agree with. But, when you say public support for those truly in need, but only in a manner which does NOT perpetuate that need, how do you see this system? Public support is not only for those who are laid off and are capable of working and keeping a stable job. It is also for those with disabilities (ie. mental health, old aged, etc.) along with other factors which can include something like PTSD, addiction (which in my experience is usually a result of PTSD), etc. You might say that it is up to the family to support this member of society, but then where does your family stop and society begin? hong yeong soo On 12/12/12, Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: Bill, Not a good idea. The communist system in its ideal form perpetuates dependence and failure because it rewards incompetence and sloth. The ideal economic system is a free market system, but that being said there are no truly free market systems since they are all perverted by the super rich who impose rules through the public officials they buy for their benefit at the expense of lower level entrepreneurs. The only regulations constraining a free market system should be to ensure safety of products sold, and to minimize environmental effects towards sustainability. However many of the current regulations are designed to maintain the advantage of large corporations and banks. That being said there should be some public support for those truly in need, but only in a manner which does NOT perpetuate that need. The ideal political system is a meritocracy where officials gain appointments as the result of rising through an educational system designed to train them to solve actual real world problems they will encounter. That applies equally to the ranks of civil servants as well as the leaders themselves. Democracy is a huge failure, because it elects not the best qualified to solve real problems, but the best liars, bull shitters, and those most willing to prostitute themselves to their corporate and banker masters. Edgar
Re: [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Sorry if this is a dupe, I thought I'd mailed it but its here as a draft. ---Chris On Dec 13, 2012 7:48 AM, Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: Chris, Why do you sit if you don't enjoy sitting? Sometimes I love it sometimes I don't - one learns to care for the body/minds near one without excessive regard for preferences. I always enjoy having sat. I don't always sit down eagerly. If it's a pain the legs, ass or mind? The reason I took such care to work up to the group time gradually is to avoid unneeded pain. This is a question all Zenners should ask themselves. Why if it is such a chore that they have to time themselves so they will get to stop do they do it? Why if we are all fundamentally ok why do we practise! that is the rub of it indeed. If you have forgotten why, perhaps sitting is not a good path for you. I am unaware of any claim of exclusiveNess for zazen as a useful path. At the time I was writing about, my motivation was do take my attraction towards zen seriously - if I quit paid work based on my response to a paragraph on anatta and my response to a paragraph about right livelihood, it is only being an adult to try sitting. Plus I had always enjoyed that sort of thing - I did self-hypnotism and the 'relaxation response' and trances and the like, so it seemed double. then the zazen itself keeps coming back. I can't put it into more clear words than the laughing joke about 'why practise if ok!' Perhaps you are quite different Is torturing your body this way Zen? It reminds me of the old Christian nonsense that one has to suffer to be be a good person One should't experience anything like torture in zazen - that would be a sign of something bad going on with the knees or something. slow down and use an easier posture if it is really painful. I think the Christian message is that we are all good people, regardless of suffering. we can be broken hurting people and be loved and accepted just as we are. and of course, if life compels us to take some risk, we need not fear. Edgar On Dec 13, 2012, at 10:11 AM, ChrisAustinLane wrote: My introduction to formal practice was thusly: I read Buddha by Karen Armstrong, found that attentively reading about the eight fold path lead me to the feeling I needed to fix my work situation to accord with right livelihood, so I determined to leave my job and become a stay at home parent. Figuring if I was going to take this path that seriously, I should try the meditation. So I read my father's (already dead by that time) copy of the Three Pillars of Zen, rather intensely, probably more than once. Resolving to set my foot upon the path, I did find innumerable bodhisattvas springing up to assist. I found a local Zendo that had hours of sitting that I could make, arranged to go to an intro session in a month or two, and set about readying myself to sit on a zafu for 25 minutes. I read some Thich Nhat Hanh intro to sitting, different chapters on numbering the breath on the intakes, numbering the breaths on the exhales, etc. I gave it away to the Zendo library in a fit of burn the writings zeal so I'm not sure. I sat five minutes the first day I think and worked my way up to 25. So I have a fond spot in my heart for The Three Pillars of Zen, despite ending up with much mellower training in a more Soto lineage. Thanks, Chris Austin-Lane Sent from a cell phone On Dec 12, 2012, at 11:09, Joe desert_woodwor...@yahoo.com wrote: Chris, Merle, That's right!, it is great! Kapleau Roshi obtained very special permission from the Roshi and from the students to take and to publish those records, for all our benefit, in his book THE THREE PILLARS OF ZEN. Kapleau's mission was to give a flavor of formal Zen practice before it was much established in the West. Very influential and successful, his book. Kapleau had been a court reporter during the Nuremberg trials, and his shorthand was good, so I think we can trust his Dokusan accounts, even if they have been edited. --Joe Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote: Tho the Three Pillars of Zen has a great section of dokusan transcripts. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
[Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Edgar, You may have missed it, but Zen Buddhism is the Meditation School. It concentrates its practices around sitting meditation, but there are at least 12 other important practices besides. Some who sit formally at centers also sit formally at home. That means timed sits. Some folks who sit at home also sit without timing(s), either all the time, or sometimes. One reason for timing is to train the body. The fact that you ask about why to do that discloses, well, volumes about your practice and your body. I'll say no more! I suppose you do not sit. I guess the temple tourism was a lark and a youthful indiscretion, never to augmented once your travels led back to home. Alas, and alack. Your free-ride ripped you off. You are co-moderator of the drop-out Corps. And you ought to be ashamed of yourself, on all counts. Ignoramus. --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Chris, Why do you sit if you don't enjoy sitting? If it's a pain the legs, ass or mind? This is a question all Zenners should ask themselves. Why if it is such a chore that they have to time themselves so they will get to stop do they do it? Is torturing your body this way Zen? It reminds me of the old Christian nonsense that one has to suffer to be be a good person Edgar Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Bill!, Ooops! Apologies. I did not mean co-Moderator. I meant/mean _Moderator_ of the drop-out Corps. Too bad about Edgar! But the water circles down the drain, given a chance, anti-clockwise in this (N.) hemisphere. Do you think I'm being too strong? It's just that all signs show that the fellow has no experience at all of the continued practice of zazen in daily life. Thus, no practice. I do not critique him on this, as that's surely a personal choice to be made in a free society. But such ignorance on display is, well, incomprehensible in a forum of this nature. OK!, on to better things; always. Worse things can happen than that a poseur knows nothing about our practice, while pretending to. --Joe Joe desert_woodworker@... wrote: Edgar, You are co-moderator of the drop-out Corps. And you ought to be ashamed of yourself, on all counts. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Joe, I meditate, sometimes still, sometimes moving, but it's NOT anything like the physically unpleasant can't wait for it to stop and the timer to ring so I can get up experiences I hear described by others on the group... Again, if I may say so your post below sounds like it was written when you've had a few too many which seems to often be the case in the evenings. You generally come across as more clear headed and closer to Zen mind earlier in the day... Edgar On Dec 13, 2012, at 7:16 PM, Joe wrote: Edgar, You may have missed it, but Zen Buddhism is the Meditation School. It concentrates its practices around sitting meditation, but there are at least 12 other important practices besides. Some who sit formally at centers also sit formally at home. That means timed sits. Some folks who sit at home also sit without timing(s), either all the time, or sometimes. One reason for timing is to train the body. The fact that you ask about why to do that discloses, well, volumes about your practice and your body. I'll say no more! I suppose you do not sit. I guess the temple tourism was a lark and a youthful indiscretion, never to augmented once your travels led back to home. Alas, and alack. Your free-ride ripped you off. You are co-moderator of the drop-out Corps. And you ought to be ashamed of yourself, on all counts. Ignoramus. --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Chris, Why do you sit if you don't enjoy sitting? If it's a pain the legs, ass or mind? This is a question all Zenners should ask themselves. Why if it is such a chore that they have to time themselves so they will get to stop do they do it? Is torturing your body this way Zen? It reminds me of the old Christian nonsense that one has to suffer to be be a good person Edgar
[Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Edgar, I have little tolerance for/of poseurs, at no matter what hour. Fed up with them and their harmfully distracting camouflage. ;-) Good for you, though, if you are keeping up the practice, or several of the practices (See if I believe it). But you *don't* know about timed sits for training of the body? It only shows that you have had no instruction since... when? Oh, THAT long... . I think your teaching is out of date, and your training is not so much as to challenge you, nowadays; or since. Shame. You are overdue for maintenance. This unfortunately shall void all Warranties. But this maintenance is not something one can give oneself. Thus... all I have have said, Goes. If you need a flashing timer, I will build one for you for the cost of the parts. You pay shipping. I do the soldering as a part of my Bodhisattva -- and other -- practice. It's about $43.35. Take me for drinks, sometime, OK. It will cost you US $1.75, unless we go to the Waldorf Astoria. Haven't I mentioned that I am a cheap date and have no tolerance for alcohol(s)? It must be late where you are, and you just need some shut-eye. To be generous, I won't say what else you may need. What about that timer? You saw a picture of it. Want one/need one? Say the word: Please. And it's your'n. For $43.35. --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Joe, I meditate, sometimes still, sometimes moving, but it's NOT anything like the physically unpleasant can't wait for it to stop and the timer to ring so I can get up experiences I hear described by others on the group... Again, if I may say so your post below sounds like it was written when you've had a few too many which seems to often be the case in the evenings. You generally come across as more clear headed and closer to Zen mind earlier in the day... Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Yeah, I got most of that. Then FWIW, are you of African descent? but i'll agree that you know more about the status of the UK. I'm just saying there are divergent grievances which i've been been spoken to about from the other side. Likewise if any one said that African Americans in the United States no longer experience racism, that would be complete horse excrement. hong yeong soo On 12/13/12, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: HYS, You seem confused. The message you`re responding to was my response to RAF`s assertion that certain ethnicities are more prone to genetically influenced violence than others. RAF used the example of the incarceration rate of African-Americans as an example. My post was refuting this by showing how caucasian (European/American) cultures have done worse things to Blacks than vice-versa and that most of the world`s large scale violence has been perpertrated by non-Black cultures. Mike Ps I was born in the UK, did all my schooling there and even served in the UK military. I don`t think a couple of African friends on FB gives you more insight into racism in Britain than mine. ; ) --- On Fri, 14/12/12, yonyon...@gmail.com yonyon...@gmail.com wrote: From: yonyon...@gmail.com yonyon...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 14 December, 2012, 4:34 Mike, On 12/13/12, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: RAF. Checked out your recommendations. Not impressed. In fact, seems close to scientific racism. Why are African-Americans singled out as particularly prone to violence due to their genetics? Because a European or Euro-centric person conducted the study. Weren`t they taken forcibily from their homeland by Europeans? Not only that...400 years of enslavement and imperialism/colonization. Wasn`t the American Civil War fought by white Americans about slavery? No, African Americans also fought. And it wasn't completely about slavery either. The Spanish Inquisition? Pol Pot? Stalin? Hitler? In the UK we don`t have any particular problem with the Black population. I beg to differ. I have a few African UK friends through FB that deal with racism to this day. Also, apartheid didn't end that long ago, did it? And how about the discrimination against the indigenous people of Australia? Sorry, but it seems all culture and history driven driven to me. What`s next - the resurgence of phrenology? Mike, read the Willie Lynch letter some time and learn some of the techniques Europeans used to perpetuate the dependent psychology of their slaves. Which is still pervasive today. Sorry to move so far off topic here. To keep it on...I just recently read about a woman Angel Kyodo Williams, a zen priestess/teacher from NY. Have you heard about her Joe? She's written _Being Black: Zen and the Art of Living with Fearlessness and Grace_. Regards, hong yeong soo Mike --- On Thu, 13/12/12, R A Fonda rafo...@frontier.com wrote: From: R A Fonda rafo...@frontier.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 13 December, 2012, 3:11 On 12/12/2012 3:21 AM, mike brown wrote: I`m not sure that certain ethic groups do have a higher propensity to wage war. It sounds as if you are unfamiliar with both the anthropology and genetic data. For the anthropology I suggest Napoleon Chagnon; for a glimpse at the tip of a genetic iceberg you could start here: http://search.yahoo.com/search?ei=utf-8fr=ytff1-w3ip=warrior%20gene%20wikitype=W3i_YT,192,2_1,Search,20110210,17364,0,16,0 It seems much more to do with historical factors and culture. Culture is just a manifestation of genetics. Canadians basically share the same ethnicity as Amercans Neither Canadians nor Americans are ethnies, but Canadians are still mostly of the Euro-descendant genetic kindred. If you look at the US crime statistics you will see that there is almost an order of magnitude difference in commission of violent crime between Euros and people of African extraction; back to genetics. RAF Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com
Re: [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
I always heard death and taxes were two of the inevitably disappointing parts of life. I am pretty sure democracy arose as a way to make the inevitable taxes be chosen and spent in a somewhat more 'consent of the governed' sort of way, not that democracy invented taxation. Taxation without representation being the ill we oppose - taxes, like death, are just part of life. On Dec 11, 2012 9:53 AM, R A Fonda rafo...@frontier.com wrote: On 12/11/2012 8:51 AM, Edgar Owen wrote: Any generosity on the part of the government The main problem with government generosity is that the government doesn't HAVE anything to give that it did not TAKE from someone. Now some user fees, and resource extraction taxes, etc... are more or less 'theft-free' but they don't come close to covering the costs of our bloated US government. Worse, the political elites have made such an awful mess of things that huge numbers of people are impoverished and unemployed and NEED assistance. Worse still, this leads a majority of the electorate to vote for a government that promises to fill their rice bowl. I fear there is no solution except for this dystopia to collapse and the unsustainable population to crash. RAF
Re: [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Bill, Not a good idea. The communist system in its ideal form perpetuates dependence and failure because it rewards incompetence and sloth. The ideal economic system is a free market system, but that being said there are no truly free market systems since they are all perverted by the super rich who impose rules through the public officials they buy for their benefit at the expense of lower level entrepreneurs. The only regulations constraining a free market system should be to ensure safety of products sold, and to minimize environmental effects towards sustainability. However many of the current regulations are designed to maintain the advantage of large corporations and banks. That being said there should be some public support for those truly in need, but only in a manner which does NOT perpetuate that need. The ideal political system is a meritocracy where officials gain appointments as the result of rising through an educational system designed to train them to solve actual real world problems they will encounter. That applies equally to the ranks of civil servants as well as the leaders themselves. Democracy is a huge failure, because it elects not the best qualified to solve real problems, but the best liars, bull shitters, and those most willing to prostitute themselves to their corporate and banker masters. Edgar On Dec 12, 2012, at 1:00 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, Until we as a society can successfully establish a communistic economic system socialism is the best system we can strive for. Right now the best we can do is try to restrain and regulate our native capitalism with wealth redistribution tactics as are employed by our current form of Keynesian economics and continue to move it closer and closer to socialism. But maybe someday we can actually aspire to communism...we can only hope. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Joe, Perhaps, but the belief in taking other people's property and redistributing it without their consent is an even more egregious attachment... Edgar On Dec 11, 2012, at 1:24 PM, Joe wrote: Chris, The question itself speaks volumes. Can one's belief in personal ownership be an attachment, a hindrance to the mind's freedom? Well done! It is certainly on-topic, and is eloquent. I'm impressed by planning and decision-making that's guided by consideration for and appreciation of others' future stewardship. I think of the Seven Generations planning of actions taken by certain Native American tribal councils, the making of decisions with a concern and consideration for how planned actions, if executed, might effect even the seventh following generation of people and culture after the elders' actions. Such planning probably could not have taken into account the arrival of Europeans in America, and I don't know if the Seven Generations principle remains in play on Native Reservations to this day. --Joe - Chris Austin-Lane chris@ wrote: Can one's belief in personal ownership be an attachment, a hindrance to the mind's freedom? It looks to me like it is, but perhaps we shouldn't argue politics and tax policy here? Rather than share my partisan arguments, let me simply state that reasonable people do disagree about these issues. Personally I am grateful to have been born into a society that believes in vaccination public schools voting research moon missions and the like. the society finds it sensible to pay me for tasks which are enjoyable and allow me to learn and to master myself, and that seems fine. I didn't create the society nor more than a bit of its wealth, so I don't feel like much more than a temporary steward of the assets I control. I do know not everyone shares such a perspective, and there's no profit in arguing. I speak to offer the lurkers the data that the idea of capitalism without a fixed idea of a personal self can take many forms. Yours in praeteritio,
Re: [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Merle and Bill, You guys are great at adding your 's and ??'s but Bill seems to always forget his :-) Edgar On Dec 12, 2012, at 2:10 AM, Merle Lester wrote: joe..where is his grin?? merle Merle, You mean you don't see Bill!'s sly ironic grin? Or, maybe I don't see yours! ;-) --Joe Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: bill good one...we see common ground here!..merle Bill! wrote: Edgar, Until we as a society can successfully establish a communistic economic system socialism is the best system we can strive for. [snip]
Re: [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
On 12/12/2012 12:49 AM, Bill! wrote: You're beginning to sound like a sour grapes Tea Bagger. Bill, your 'realization' would be revealed as pretense by this alone, but we also have your endorsement of communism to remove all doubt. You have not only revealed your/self/, but the fox who approved you. I am grateful to Edgar for giving me this opportunity to confirm that I made a wise decision, all those years ago, to avoid the new-age clap-trap that passes for Zen these days. /Sincerely,/ RAF
Re: [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
On 12/12/2012 8:08 AM, Edgar Owen wrote: Democracy is a huge failure, because it elects not the best qualified to solve real problems, but the best liars, bull shitters, and those most willing to prostitute themselves to their corporate and banker masters. This is true, of course, but I suggest that we need only recognize that democracy inevitably evolves into socialism, then communism, as the less fortunate and/or industrious learn that they can vote themselves a 'share' of the rewards of /other/ people's industry. Hence, democracy is crypto-communism 'at the limit', therefore falsified as a viable economic system by the same criteria that condemn communism. Thank you for the opportunity to sample modern American zen without leaving the mountain. RAF
Re: [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Now is the time for the Churchill quote about democracy being the worst form of government except for all the alternatives. What does it mean to say the best economic system is the free market system which cannot exist? if it cannot exist, how is it even good much less best? Also, I have known a fair number of elected officials and I think you are factually wrong on them being the best liars and most willing to prostitute themselves. while they are generally charismatic they are fairly diverse group of people, not that different from regular folks, interested in improving the sidewalks and spending money wisely and almost always motivated by a desire to make government take care of the important stuff well. My friends were almost all at the city and county level. On Dec 12, 2012 5:08 AM, Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: Bill, Not a good idea. The communist system in its ideal form perpetuates dependence and failure because it rewards incompetence and sloth. The ideal economic system is a free market system, but that being said there are no truly free market systems since they are all perverted by the super rich who impose rules through the public officials they buy for their benefit at the expense of lower level entrepreneurs. The only regulations constraining a free market system should be to ensure safety of products sold, and to minimize environmental effects towards sustainability. However many of the current regulations are designed to maintain the advantage of large corporations and banks. That being said there should be some public support for those truly in need, but only in a manner which does NOT perpetuate that need. The ideal political system is a meritocra cy where officials gain appointments as the result of rising through an educational system designed to train them to solve actual real world problems they will encounter. That applies equally to the ranks of civil servants as well as the leaders themselves. Democracy is a huge failure, because it elects not the best qualified to solve real problems, but the best liars, bull shitters, and those most willing to prostitute themselves to their corporate and banker masters. Edgar On Dec 12, 2012, at 1:00 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, Until we as a society can successfully establish a communistic economic system socialism is the best system we can strive for. Right now the best we can do is try to restrain and regulate our native capitalism with wealth redistribution tactics as are employed by our current form of Keynesian economics and continue to move it closer and closer to socialism. But maybe someday we can actually aspire to communism...we can only hope. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Joe, Perhaps, but the belief in taking other people's property and redistributing it without their consent is an even more egregious attachment... Edgar On Dec 11, 2012, at 1:24 PM, Joe wrote: Chris, The question itself speaks volumes. Can one's belief in personal ownership be an attachment, a hindrance to the mind's freedom? Well done! It is certainly on-topic, and is eloquent. I'm impressed by planning and decision-making that's guided by consideration for and appreciation of others' future stewardship. I think of the Seven Generations planning of actions taken by certain Native American tribal councils, the making of decisions with a concern and consideration for how planned actions, if executed, might effect even the seventh following generation of people and culture after the elders' actions. Such planning probably could not have taken into account the arrival of Europeans in America, and I don't know if the Seven Generations principle remains in play on Native Reservations to this day. --Joe - Chris Austin-Lane chris@ wrote: Can one's belief in personal ownership be an attachment, a hindrance to the mind's freedom? It looks to me like it is, but perhaps we shouldn't argue politics and tax policy here? Rather than share my partisan arguments, let me simply state that reasonable people do disagree about these issues. Personally I am grateful to have been born into a society that believes in vaccination public schools voting research moon missions and the like. the society finds it sensible to pay me for tasks which are enjoyable and allow me to learn and to master myself, and that seems fine. I didn't create the society nor more than a bit of its wealth, so I don't feel like much more than a temporary steward of the assets I control. I do know not everyone shares such a perspective, and there's no profit in arguing. I speak to offer the lurkers the data that the idea of capitalism without a fixed idea of a personal self can take many forms. Yours in praeteritio,
Re: [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
On 12/12/2012 7:15 AM, Chris Austin-Lane wrote: taxes, like death, are just part of life Taxes are so dangerous because they enhance and sustain government power, which is pernicious due to the imperfections of human nature, and because they destroy economic productivity, which impoverishes society, with all the misery that entails. Taxes are used to sustain unproductive activity (if such activity were productive, it would not require tax-support) including war, imperialistic adventures, and domestic tyranny. I do not oppose taxes for personal reasons (I don't make enough money to be especially burdened by them) but because they empower evil and reduce the people to poverty. RAF
Re: [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
On 12/12/2012 3:21 AM, mike brown wrote: I`m not sure that certain ethic groups do have a higher propensity to wage war. It sounds as if you are unfamiliar with both the anthropology and genetic data. For the anthropology I suggest Napoleon Chagnon; for a glimpse at the tip of a genetic iceberg you could start here: http://search.yahoo.com/search?ei=utf-8fr=ytff1-w3ip=warrior%20gene%20wikitype=W3i_YT,192,2_1,Search,20110210,17364,0,16,0 It seems much more to do with historical factors and culture. Culture is just a manifestation of genetics. Canadians basically share the same ethnicity as Amercans Neither Canadians nor Americans are ethnies, but Canadians are still mostly of the Euro-descendant genetic kindred. If you look at the US crime statistics you will see that there is almost an order of magnitude difference in commission of violent crime between Euros and people of African extraction; back to genetics. RAF
Re: [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
On 12/12/2012 10:48 AM, Chris Austin-Lane wrote: Now is the time for the Churchill quote about democracy being the worst form of government except for all the alternatives. Like hard cases making bad law, pithy comments can make for poor reasoning. IS democracy /really/ better than all the alternatives? I submit that it is not, if for no other reason than the previously posted analysis that it inevitably segues into communism. We also have the empirical data, revealing that it is a disaster. A case can be made that the /original /US constitution was the best of a bad lot as governments go. I favor anarchy. Yes, I know that it wont work in a crowded industrial world because people will self-organize or another nation will usurp the territory in a state of anarchy, but that overcrowded industrialized world will soon collapse, and anarchy will be the natural state of existence again, as it was for all of human existence prior to agriculture. So /no-thing/ needs to be done, as there is no practical 'solution' (one that could be enacted by popular will, from 'here') to optimize the current state of human existence except to endure it, for the time being. RAF
Re: [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Given that there has not, as far as I know, been a stable and admirable society without taxes I doubt you can be sure about the ill effects of taxation. Governments are also a pretty universal way of organizing societies. As far as I can see the imperfections of human nature exist in and out of government. Policing of violence answer fraud, scientific research, food safety, clean water, and education of the young all seem like they are important enough to do even when there is not a strong short term business case for them. Certainly the US has experienced large economic prosperity and technological increase and an increasingly satisfying culture with a government and with taxes. I don't know how much if any of your food or wires or medicine comes over.airplanes or highways, but for me most of my vital supplies are cheaper and safer do to government actions. The last two hundred years even the last fifty have seen less impoverishment even with taxes etc. I live in California, and work in software and it seems that the people from countries with a strong public education system are pretty productive. Even wars overall seem to be getting smaller and more controversial. On Dec 12, 2012 7:50 AM, R A Fonda rafo...@frontier.com wrote: On 12/12/2012 7:15 AM, Chris Austin-Lane wrote: taxes, like death, are just part of life Taxes are so dangerous because they enhance and sustain government power, which is pernicious due to the imperfections of human nature, and because they destroy economic productivity, which impoverishes society, with all the misery that entails. Taxes are used to sustain unproductive activity (if such activity were productive, it would not require tax-support) including war, imperialistic adventures, and domestic tyranny. I do not oppose taxes for personal reasons (I don't make enough money to be especially burdened by them) but because they empower evil and reduce the people to poverty. RAF
Re: [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
I rather doubt that pithy line of reasoning is true - certainly there is less communism and more democracy now than when I was little. I personally would not be shocked if technology enables a sort of anarcho-syndicalism in the future, but I bet there would be some bill of rights and division of powers and taxes to pay for it. but not a big collapse. a big collapse leading to gun/virus/EMP wars between roving bands of displaced IT workers from Charlotte attacking the rural land-owners with no rules or police or infrastructure maintenance I would not expect to be good, in terms of human pleasure or life span. Is this the system you think would be better than our tax based system? On Dec 12, 2012 8:23 AM, R A Fonda rafo...@frontier.com wrote: On 12/12/2012 10:48 AM, Chris Austin-Lane wrote: Now is the time for the Churchill quote about democracy being the worst form of government except for all the alternatives. Like hard cases making bad law, pithy comments can make for poor reasoning. IS democracy *really* better than all the alternatives? I submit that it is not, if for no other reason than the previously posted analysis that it inevitably segues into communism. We also have the empirical data, revealing that it is a disaster. A case can be made that the *original *US constitution was the best of a bad lot as governments go. I favor anarchy. Yes, I know that it wont work in a crowded industrial world because people will self-organize or another nation will usurp the territory in a state of anarchy, but that overcrowded industrialized world will soon collapse, and anarchy will be the natural state of existence again, as it was for all of human existence prior to agriculture. So *no-thing* needs to be done, as there is no practical 'solution' (one that could be enacted by popular will, from 'here') to optimize the current state of human existence except to endure it, for the time being. RAF
Re: [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
On 12/12/2012 11:48 AM, Chris Austin-Lane wrote: Is this the system you think would be better than our tax based system? You seem to be under the misapprehension that because I foresee something I must 'want' all aspects of it. I live in California So, if you can't already recognize a disaster-in-progress, there is no point in my trying to edify you. The fact that supposedly 'awakened beings' can't apprehend the inevitable results of current trends and policy (indeed, argue for hair-of-the-dog cures) falsifies their pretensions to enlightenment. RAF
[Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Merle, You may be seeing all the way to his Original Face; but, in this case I suggest looking at the one worn gracefully on the top of THAT one. ;-) --Joe Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: joe..where is his grin?? merle Merle, You mean you don't see Bill!'s sly ironic grin? Or, maybe I don't see yours! ;-) Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 9:21 AM, R A Fonda rafo...@frontier.com wrote: On 12/12/2012 11:48 AM, Chris Austin-Lane wrote: Is this the system you think would be better than our tax based system? You seem to be under the misapprehension that because I foresee something I must 'want' all aspects of it. You wrote of some better system than democracy: IS democracy *really* better than all the alternatives? I submit that it is not I took your email to mean that you preferred the foreseen anarchy system following the collapse was a sample alternative. So if not anarchy, then what system is better than democracy? I live in California So, if you can't already recognize a disaster-in-progress, there is no point in my trying to edify you. It is always too soon to say if things are going well or badly. A comment on disasters in California - the earthquakes are less fuss than the hurricanes I got on the east coast of the US - you just prep and then hopefully it will turn out ok, but there's no advance warning. No tropical depression forming off of the blah blah islands. No unneeded evacuations. The fact that supposedly 'awakened beings' can't apprehend the inevitable results of current trends and policy (indeed, argue for hair-of-the-dog cures) falsifies their pretensions to enlightenment. Not sure if you are referring to me here, but I am not an awakened being except in the ordinary sense, I have an aha moment that I was not paying attention many times a day (some days only 3 times, some days more often). Over and over, I return to the present. And I am not enlightened in any sense. Just watch me interacting with my spouse or children, or listen to my thoughts during a meeting displaying particularly obtuse statements. Even to the extent that I find non-dual experience to be a thing I think we all have access to, it has nothing to do with apprehending results - it is just here, just now. The simplest householder free to sweep their floor with not a thought in their head knows it; each time you see your kids ice cream falling from the cone and you catch it with no gap no thought just seeing and moving, you know this ground. Not intellection - tho I side with Edgar in that perceiving the contents of the mind is no different than perceiving the contents of the eyes or the contents of the touch (where Bill! seems to draw a line between those two). Thanks, --Chris ch...@austin-lane.net +1-301-270-6524 RAF
[Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Merle, No, no way! Please; your correspondence with the Roshi is private. That's the way it is in our Way. Only tell me general things later, maybe, if you wish, about art and zen and how they may link-up. Your discussions are like what transpires in Dokusan, Private Teaching in the Room: *absolutely* privileged and private. There are good reasons for this. What happens in Dokusan stays in Dokusan! ;-) Hope you will enjoy. --Joe Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: joe...yes joe i will send you the email before i forward it to her..okay..you are kind indeed to point me to this direction... [snip] Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Mike, ...indicates a chasm between the two cultures. The chasm is the 49th Parallel. Funny, because, from the air, it does not look all that imposing! ;-) --Joe mike brown uerusuboyo@... wrote: RAF, I`m not sure that certain ethic groups do have a higher propensity to wage war. It seems much more to do with historical factors and culture. Canadians basically share the same ethnicity as Amercans, but a comparison of the homicide rates for murder by shootings indicates a chasm between the two cultures. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Tho the Three Pillars of Zen has a great section of dokusan transcripts. On Dec 12, 2012 9:41 AM, Joe desert_woodwor...@yahoo.com wrote: Merle, No, no way! Please; your correspondence with the Roshi is private. That's the way it is in our Way. Only tell me general things later, maybe, if you wish, about art and zen and how they may link-up. Your discussions are like what transpires in Dokusan, Private Teaching in the Room: *absolutely* privileged and private. There are good reasons for this. What happens in Dokusan stays in Dokusan! ;-) Hope you will enjoy. --Joe Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: joe...yes joe i will send you the email before i forward it to her..okay..you are kind indeed to point me to this direction... [snip] Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
[Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Chris, Now you 'make' me want to see again the movie Meet Joe Black, a reworking of the earlier story Death Takes a Holiday. Philosophical and fun. And some really good casting and acting. Death and taxes figure literally, and LARGE, in the movie! The Buddha might have said that the two Inevitables are Suffering and Rebirth. We all know that the final Truth of the Four Noble Truths is the program meant to change *that* situation: The Eightfold Path. --Joe Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote: I always heard death and taxes were two of the inevitably disappointing parts of life. I am pretty sure democracy arose as a way to make the inevitable taxes be chosen and spent in a somewhat more 'consent of the governed' sort of way, not that democracy invented taxation. Taxation without representation being the ill we oppose - taxes, like death, are just part of life. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
On 12/12/2012 12:33 PM, Chris Austin-Lane wrote: Is this the system you think would be better than our tax based system? You seem to be under the misapprehension that because I foresee something I must 'want' all aspects of it. You wrote of some better system than democracy: IS democracy /really/ better than all the alternatives? I submit that it is not I took your email to mean that you preferred the foreseen anarchy system following the collapse was a sample alternative. So if not anarchy, then what system is better than democracy? We are getting some conflation and confusion here. I don't think democracy is the best system, and I made it clear why: because it inevitably segues into communism, which is a proven disaster. I said I thought that a representative republic, as exemplified by the original US constitution, was about as good as any government I know of, but I also said I don't think there is ANY government that will suffice to maintain personal freedom, social order, and a free/productive economy in an overpopulated world or individual state for that matter. I said I prefer anarchy (maximizing personal freedom) but conceded that it was not going to happen in an overcrowded, technological society. I did not say that I /wanted/ all aspects of the defacto condition of anarchy which will prevail in the post-collapse world, but simply that it would /be/ the condition, and that it has /been /the human condition except since agriculture. Before one dismisses such a state as nasty and brutish it should be considered that humans evolved from apes under those conditions, and that we are DEvolving under the current order, which can't be maintained /any/way, though I have no doubt that people will try to do so at any cost ... the results of which will be both ghastly and futile.. A comment on disasters in California - the earthquakes are less fuss than the hurricanes I got on the east coast of the US - you just prep and then hopefully it will turn out ok, but there's no advance warning. No tropical depression forming off of the blah blah islands. No unneeded evacuations. You probably realize that is not the kind of 'disaster' I have in mind, though natural disasters may be the stressors that precipitate social breakdown. The fact that supposedly 'awakened beings' can't apprehend the inevitable results of current trends and policy (indeed, argue for hair-of-the-dog cures) falsifies their pretensions to enlightenment. Not sure if you are referring to me here, No, and it is to your credit that you make no such claims. In spite of your occasional hostility, I respect your unpretentious efforts. you see your kids ice cream falling from the cone and you catch it with no gap no thought just seeing and moving, In the martial arts this is known as 'mu shin'; it is a natural human ability, though not 'dependable', in an actual conflict, until (after long practice) one has gained control of emotions, particularly fear. Depending on the circumstances and how often you experience it, and assuming that you do not practice martial arts, it /might /indicate that your meditation and mindfulness is starting to 'pay off'. RAF
[Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
RAF, Overruled! --Joe R A Fonda rafonda@... wrote: On 12/12/2012 12:49 AM, Bill! wrote: You're beginning to sound like a sour grapes Tea Bagger. Bill, your 'realization' would be revealed as pretense by this alone, but we also have your endorsement of communism to remove all doubt. You have not only revealed your/self/, but the fox who approved you. [snippeth] Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Chris, What does it mean to say the best economic system is the free market system which cannot exist? It *is* puzzling. But I think it contains the SAME germ of truth as exists also in the famous statement about Ideal Communism, which I think Marx and other theorists wrote about: Ideal Communism is a state that is approached, but never achieved. Appreciating the difference between real and ideal is what makes the two statements bear some sense. I don't agree with either of them. --Joe Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote: Now is the time for the Churchill quote about democracy being the worst form of government except for all the alternatives. What does it mean to say the best economic system is the free market system which cannot exist? [bandwidth-saving scissors] Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
RAF, I do not oppose taxes for personal reasons ... but because they empower evil *and reduce the people to poverty*. I see the evil of state and national lotteries for the reason in your final clause (where I've added my emphasis of '*'). --Joe R A Fonda rafonda@... wrote: On 12/12/2012 7:15 AM, Chris Austin-Lane wrote: taxes, like death, are just part of life Taxes are so dangerous because they enhance and sustain government power, which is pernicious due to the imperfections of human nature, and because they destroy economic productivity, which impoverishes society, with all the misery that entails. Taxes are used to sustain unproductive activity (if such activity were productive, it would not require tax-support) including war, imperialistic adventures, and domestic tyranny. I do not oppose taxes for personal reasons (I don't make enough money to be especially burdened by them) but because they empower evil and reduce the people to poverty. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Howdy, RAF, SCIENCE goes through these doldrum periods, too, when all seems wrapped-up, and the old-timers sit back and smoke thick sickening cigars, which youngsters shun. Then, upstarts come along and generate a Revolution. Their work is rejected at first, of course, but, then, after the fogies die off, a new day dawns in a new world. This just continues to happen, and happen, and happen. See if it won't be the same. I agree that the fogies need do no thing. They won't have to. And haven't had to. Historically. The sprouts who have have sprouted will become whelps, and then soon will have power over their lives. I have faith in this process, only because it has brought us to today. Talk about empiricism! You, too, are the living proof. Living for how long, none of us knows. But you'll be followed by folks whom you could only precede, anciently. They'll be masters of the world you helped to give them, and they will be grateful, while they also understand that there is much for THEM to DO, because you did not *do* it, GrandPop. We all love a challenge. So, see?, again they'll be grateful. Kudos. (if you don't see the beauty of this, then, where have you been living? On a mountain, someplace?) ;-) --Joe R A Fonda rafonda@... wrote: ... ... So /no-thing/ needs to be done, as there is no practical 'solution' (one that could be enacted by popular will, from 'here') to optimize the current state of human existence except to endure it, for the time being. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
On 12/12/2012 1:24 PM, Joe wrote: I see the evil of state and national lotteries for the reason in your final clause Very true, one might regard them as a tax on the desperate and those ignorant of the implication of statistics. They are particularly pernicious in that they make such a /few, huge /payoffs instead of a lot of much smaller ones. RAF
Re: [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
On 12/12/2012 1:09 PM, Joe wrote: RAF, Overruled! Get outta that 'host seat'! To paraphrase the dialog from Butch and Sundance: there /ARE NO/ rules in a zen-fight ... let alone /over/rules. RAF
Re: [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Thanks, --Chris ch...@austin-lane.net +1-301-270-6524 On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 10:17 AM, R A Fonda rafo...@frontier.com wrote: On 12/12/2012 12:33 PM, Chris Austin-Lane wrote: Is this the system you think would be better than our tax based system? You seem to be under the misapprehension that because I foresee something I must 'want' all aspects of it. You wrote of some better system than democracy: IS democracy *really* better than all the alternatives? I submit that it is not I took your email to mean that you preferred the foreseen anarchy system following the collapse was a sample alternative. So if not anarchy, then what system is better than democracy? We are getting some conflation and confusion here. I don't think democracy is the best system, and I made it clear why: because it inevitably segues into communism, which is a proven disaster. I said I thought that a representative republic, as exemplified by the original US constitution, was about as good as any government I know of, but I also said I don't think there is ANY government that will suffice to maintain personal freedom, social order, and a free/productive economy in an overpopulated world or individual state for that matter. I said I prefer anarchy (maximizing personal freedom) but conceded that it was not going to happen in an overcrowded, technological society. I did not say that I *wanted*all aspects of the defacto condition of anarchy which will prevail in the post-collapse world, but simply that it would *be* the condition, and that it has *been *the human condition except since agriculture. Before one dismisses such a state as nasty and brutish it should be considered that humans evolved from apes under those conditions, and that we are DEvolving under the current order, which can't be maintained *any*way, though I have no doubt that people will try to do so at any cost ... the results of which will be both ghastly and futile.. So the US of 1792 or changed relatively continuously, according to the initial rules, into the current US, so it can't be any better as a system than what we have now, right? It was a republic that allowed women to vote, abolished slavery, welcomed wave after wave of ethnic immigration, regulated fire safety for factory workers, food safety inspectors, regulated air pollution emissions, etc. etc. I just don't understand what you mean by your words. I'm sorry. Also, just for the record, devolving is not a scientific term - evolution posits that the organisms adapt to whatever environment they are reproducing in - there's no teleology - no better or worse, it's just the mechanism of life. As I recently read (here?), while Hawkins would not have lived back NNN years ago, his utility to our species is pretty high, so the fact that he reproduced is not really a bad thing. Also, it is starting to turn out that genes aren't as simple as it first appeared - they really are more of a platform for organisms, a computing engine that can respond to the environment and life of the organism in complex (and not yet known) ways. Genes turn on and off. I am still a bit saddened at your expectations of anarchy, but I hope the preparations give you joy. I'll stick with more hopeful Sci-Fi for my thoughts of the future. A comment on disasters in California - the earthquakes are less fuss than the hurricanes I got on the east coast of the US - you just prep and then hopefully it will turn out ok, but there's no advance warning. No tropical depression forming off of the blah blah islands. No unneeded evacuations. You probably realize that is not the kind of 'disaster' I have in mind, though natural disasters may be the stressors that precipitate social breakdown. Well, I'd probably disagree with you as to California - from my perspective, the people that think we could somehow have no taxes lost rather heavily in the last election; my kids class sizes (and the class sizes of the people that will probably care for me in the latter bits of my life) will decrease, thereby increasing the teacher effectiveness. We have a majority-minority state, and it brings with it the ability to live normally and yet be enriched with the perspectives of people from all over this globe, stimulating my mind no end. We as a group are buying and voting for electric cars, windmills, water conservation, bicycling, and organic foods. In my thoughts, it is a preview of living in the US in a few decades. The fact that supposedly 'awakened beings' can't apprehend the inevitable results of current trends and policy (indeed, argue for hair-of-the-dog cures) falsifies their pretensions to enlightenment. Not sure if you are referring to me here, No, and it is to your credit that you make no such claims. In spite of your occasional hostility, I respect your unpretentious efforts. I told some co-workers about the $50 and they uniformly agreed it was harsh, so my
[Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Chris, Merle, That's right!, it is great! Kapleau Roshi obtained very special permission from the Roshi and from the students to take and to publish those records, for all our benefit, in his book THE THREE PILLARS OF ZEN. Kapleau's mission was to give a flavor of formal Zen practice before it was much established in the West. Very influential and successful, his book. Kapleau had been a court reporter during the Nuremberg trials, and his shorthand was good, so I think we can trust his Dokusan accounts, even if they have been edited. --Joe Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote: Tho the Three Pillars of Zen has a great section of dokusan transcripts. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
