One thing that I think would really contribute to the
acceptance of CF is to make it pervasive and ubiquitous-- the
same way MS does with IE and MM does with Flash.
It's worth pointing out that IE and the Flash client are both free for
end-users, and the business model behind both is to
Or maybe even consider not going down the Blue Alanta pricing, but
their own Flex pricing? Surely this would open up the gates a little?
As long as you can gaurantee (somehow) that the site is going to be
used for personal use (or charity etc) by giving the server away free
in these cases means
Well, if I lived in an area with a poor market I'd start by becoming
VERY active in the User Group.
So active that I ended-up speaking nearly every month. So active that
I'd help with organizing and promoting it.
I'd be sure to always illustrate and emphasise the strengths of the CF
Server and
one thing I'd like to just mention is that if you're at MAX, there will
be a lot of Macromedia folks there to talk to about these
issues/concerns. Grab Ben if you can. Go over to the Community Pit -
the MMUG and Team Macromedia folks will be there. Also, talk with
Myself about it - not only
us help them :P ?
- Calvin
-Original Message-
From: Tim Laureska
Date: 10/20/04 8:56 pm
To: CF-Talk
Subj: RE: CF developer numbers
Here, here Mike... Don't get me wrong, I love CF... it's what I use most
for the sites I build, however, marketing is not my forte nor do I have
the time
market. and to a
degree a high level dismissal of the product's potential importance.
That's just my thoughts at the moment ;P
- Calvin
-Original Message-
From: Ben Forta
Date: 10/20/04 10:52 pm
To: CF-Talk
Subj: RE: CF developer numbers
Interesting thread, on a whole bunch of levels
levels.
Is that the gist of what we feel would help us help them :P ?
- Calvin
-Original Message-
From: Tim Laureska
Date: 10/20/04 8:56 pm
To: CF-Talk
Subj: RE: CF developer numbers
Here, here Mike... Don't get me wrong, I love CF... it's what I use most
Ben ( and all of MM),
Things that you are most known for doing (speaking at user groups /
conferences) would be considered by many as preaching to the choir. If
you tell a ColdFusion developer about ColdFusion, that doesn't count as
getting the word out.
I can't speak intelligently on
CF compatriats gainfully!
Yes do focus on the 'little guy'!!
- Calvin
-Original Message-
From: Jeffry Houser
Date: 10/21/04 8:10 am
To: CF-Talk
Subj: Re: CF developer numbers
Ben ( and all of MM),
Things that you are most known for doing (speaking at user groups /
conferences
developer's edition was a far more successful offering, and one
that I wish we'd have had ever since day one.
--- Ben
-Original Message-
From: Barney Boisvert [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 11:51 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: CF developer numbers
What do you think
would help us help them :P ?
- Calvin
-Original Message-
From: Tim Laureska
Date: 10/20/04 8:56 pm
To: CF-Talk
Subj: RE: CF developer numbers
Here, here Mike... Don't get me wrong, I love CF... it's what I use most for
the sites I build, however, marketing is not my forte nor do I
Excuse me - but why would being an MCSE make one more likely to overlook CF
as an App server?
Mark A. Kruger, CFG, MSCE
www.cfwebtools.com
www.necfug.com
http://blog.mxconsulting.com
-Original Message-
--
[quote]I think the director of our division put
by folks at the right levels.
Is that the gist of what we feel would help us help them :P ?
- Calvin
-Original Message-
From: Tim Laureska
Date: 10/20/04 8:56 pm
To: CF-Talk
Subj: RE: CF developer numbers
Here, here Mike... Don't get me wrong, I love CF... it's what I use
Sorry that was just a jab at M$ using the MCSE stereotype. I don't
think all MCSEs are morons. (Atleast not the minority that can code)
-Adam
On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 08:35:26 -0500, Mark A Kruger
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Excuse me - but why would being an MCSE make one more likely to overlook CF
I thought CF Express was great, personally. I used it numerous times,
on everything from little one-off sites for clients who had a web
server in their office, but needed zero-cost app servers, to
kiosk-style apps on non-connected computers (just install CF right on
the machine). At least two of
to be sure to focus on the topics that
people actually want to hear about.
Thanks.
April
-Original Message-
From: Simon Horwith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 4:08 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: CF developer numbers
one thing I'd like to just mention
to be sure to focus on the topics that
people actually want to hear about.
Thanks.
April
-Original Message-
From: Simon Horwith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 4:08 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: CF developer numbers
one thing I'd like to just mention
I started to post to this thread last night, but got interrupted,
Lotta' good stuff here!
One thing that I think would really contribute to the acceptance of CF
is to make it pervasive and ubiquitous-- the same way MS does with IE
and MM does with Flash.
On OS X you get most of what you need
: Thursday, October 21, 2004 4:02 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: CF developer numbers
Well, if I lived in an area with a poor market I'd start by becoming VERY
active in the User Group.
So active that I ended-up speaking nearly every month. So active that I'd
help with organizing and promoting it.
I'd
If there are any other UG managers reading this list, please let me know on
or off-list what your experience has been.
I ran the user group here in San Diego for a couple of years. First of all, it is a
very big committment for an individual to run a CFUG, or any user group. Second, user
groups
me know on
or off-list what your experience has been.
- Steve
-Original Message-
From: Simon Horwith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 4:02 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: CF developer numbers
Well, if I lived in an area with a poor market I'd start
The biggest gripe that I hear about ColdFusion from *sssooo* many people is
product cost. At $1,299 for standard and $5,999 for the enterprise, its a
steep barrier to entry compared to PHP and ASP/ASP.Net (as free
alternatives). And yes, I've read all of the posts and counterpoints to the
*free*
Applebaum [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, 20 October 2004 9:27
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: CF developer numbers
Yes, Times, they are a'changing.
When I first discovered CF (circa 1998) I could earn $10,000 for a
typical
1-month project (the same project for the same $ took 3
of the
businesses that hire contractors read Gartner's research.
-Original Message-
From: Dick Applebaum [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, 20 October 2004 10:36
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: CF developer numbers
On Oct 19, 2004, at 6:47 PM, James Holmes wrote:
[snip]
If CF is relegated
Message-
From: Rey Bango
Date: 10/20/04 9:37 am
To: CF-Talk
Subj: Re: CF developer numbers
The biggest gripe that I hear about ColdFusion from *sssooo* many people is
product cost. At $1,299 for standard and $5,999 for the enterprise, its a
steep barrier to entry compared to PHP and ASP
Message-
From: Calvin Ward [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 1:04 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: CF developer numbers
Beta was a superior format to VHS
Amiga was a superior multimedia PC compared to PC-Clones or even Macs
Apple's OS is more user friendly than Windows
-Original Message-
From: Calvin Ward [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 1:04 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: CF developer numbers
Beta was a superior format to VHS
Amiga was a superior multimedia PC compared to PC-Clones or even Macs
Apple's OS is more user
I think there are two worlds here. The price of CF server is a bit steep for many
smaller companies, but to larger one's it is actually looked at as too cheap! I have
had to sell that is was a fully functional product, not some IT toy.
Working at a company that pays both for Enterprise Oracle
of project.
Boy you wanna talk about holy wars, when the groups got together to discuss
technologies, all heck broke loose ;)
-Original Message-
From: Douglas Knudsen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 2:04 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: CF developer numbers
interestingly
.
-Original Message-
From: Dick Applebaum [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, 20 October 2004 10:36
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: CF developer numbers
On Oct 19, 2004, at 6:47 PM, James Holmes wrote:
[snip]
If CF is relegated to a niche product, then the IT web development
professionals
Knudsen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 2:04 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: CF developer numbers
interestingly enough, CF is spreading inside my company. other app dev
teams are being modeled after the one I am on due to our great success. Of
course we are a phone company
On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 20:10:54 +0100, Simon Horwith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
more scalable as well. One of the primary reasons that there's so much
hype surrounding the Event Gateway in Blackstone is the fact that it
frees CF Developers from the bonds of simple HTTP request/response
driven
Sean,
I definitely agree with you that Blackstone's features (even CFMX's feature
set as well ) make it a very sophisticated server. No question about that.
Having been a past member of Team Allaire (before the MM acquisition) and a
CF instructor, I've been fortunate to have been involved in the
wait till all these cheapo companies need to switch to rias then watch them cry cause
they chose something else.
Now, i do think MM hasnt done a very good job of letting the ppl know that it no
longer is just a tag runner, seems like ppl outside of coldfusion still look at it in
that reguard
Great reply Dave and yes you're right about the cost savings derived via the
quick development cycle that's typical with CF. I hear ya. Been there done
that.
All I'm saying is that CF's perception as, what you so aptly called, a
tagrunner still exists today and if a manager or developer thinks
Rey,
What are you doing to better the situation near you?
~Simon
Simon Horwith
Member of Team Macromedia
Macromedia Certified Master Instructor
Editor-in-Chief, ColdFusion Developers Journal
Blog - http://www.horwith.com
Rey Bango wrote:
Sean,
I definitely agree with you that Blackstone's
Well I work for the largest burea in the Dept of State. About 3 years
ago they made a major shift to make Java/Oracle/CF the standard.
Currently we have one java application (been in production for about 3
years) and 10+ CF applications. I'm not sure what you consider an
Enterprise application
What kind of response is that?
Rey,
What are you doing to better the situation near you?
~Simon
Simon Horwith
Member of Team Macromedia
Macromedia Certified Master Instructor
Editor-in-Chief, ColdFusion Developers Journal
Blog - http://www.horwith.com
CC
well one of the things that u should applaud MM for is that they do try and
incorporate as many technologies as possible, unlike M$ whos stance basically is, use
our stuff or else (monopoly maybe?) But maybe if MM did show more of what cfm can do
it would get those ppl over from the other
a good one
its like when i am trying to get the flashblog moved over too cfm too try and help our
community and nobody helps out. It aint just gunna happen, get behind it and inform ppl
-- Original Message --
From: Casey C Cook [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[quote]I think the director of our division put it best when he said 'cf
wasn't a realy app server until cfmx'. The people who think its not an
app server today either haven't looked since CFMX, or are MCSEs.[/quote]
exactly!
come on MM TELL THEM haha
and while ur at it MM, can u make the
All I'm saying is that CF's perception as, what you so aptly called, a
tagrunner still exists today and if a manager or developer thinks that
they're paying $1299 for a tagrunner they'll just use an alternative;
especially if its free.
In that case is that you shouldn't even be talking about
A lobbyists'
-Original Message-
From: Casey C Cook [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 7:03 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: CF developer numbers
What kind of response is that?
Rey,
What are you doing to better the situation near you?
~Simon
Simon Horwith
Member
a good one
its like when i am trying to get the flashblog moved over too cfm too try
and help our community and nobody helps out. It aint just gunna happen,
get behind it and inform ppl
mm hmm
CC
~|
Purchase from House
Speaking as someone that has just inherited a very short (5 day) contract to
fix up some old php, and I have to say, I am such a happy puppy that I chose
not to develop in PHP full time.
At this point it's probably best to note that we also run PHP on our server
so that when we take custom off of
amen brotha!
one guy on the flash coders list said he could code better faster in php then in cfm
u must get a free crack pipe with your php dl! haha
-- Original Message --
From: Paul Vernon [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu, 21 Oct
this thread's getting a bit off topic, but I'll give a brief response.
I don't personally like hearing about how bad the market is in an
area... I want to hear about what someone is doing about it. If anyone
would like suggestions about what they can do, I'll gladly give them a
ton of them.
: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 6:41 PM
Subject: Re: CF developer numbers
Rey,
What are you doing to better the situation near you?
~Simon
Simon Horwith
Member of Team Macromedia
Macromedia Certified Master Instructor
Editor-in-Chief, ColdFusion Developers Journal
Blog - http://www.horwith.com
You're right Adam, they haven't looked and MM hasn't done a good enough job
to let people know.
Rey...
~|
Get the mailserver that powers this list at
http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=17
Message:
It was a great response. I respect Simon tremendously and I understand what
he's asking.
Rey...
- Original Message -
From: Casey C Cook [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 7:03 PM
Subject: Re: CF developer numbers
What kind of response
Man Dave, this one sentence sums up my gripes with MM:
But maybe if MM did show more of what cfm can do it would get those ppl
over from the other launguages.
You can throw in the kitchen sink but if you don't get the word out, it
doesn't mean squat.
Great post bud.
Rey...
In short, if you expect people to see CFMX as an enterprise solution, then
position it as an enterprise solution.
This is where MM falls short because they're marketing dollars seem
primarily focused on the front end tools (Flash, Flex, et al). *They* need
to increase their exposure to help
Ok then, lets hear some of the things that a single-person developer
working his heart out already to pay the bills can do to increase the
market for CF developers, without giving all those opportunities to
the other 136 people who responded to the same job.
One that springs to mind is that we
-
From: Simon Horwith [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 7:58 PM
Subject: Re: CF developer numbers
this thread's getting a bit off topic, but I'll give a brief response.
I don't personally like hearing about how bad the market is in an
area... I want
Maybe I'm missing the point here but is what you are talking about = really
for MM to show/do? I don't think so.
I seriously think that if we as developers can't show off the = capabilities
of our tools of choice and can't substantiate the claims that are made =
about CF when the management as
and i agree but a lot of ppl out there dont know what cfm can do and that is were MM
should step in and show it.
like show how effecient cfcs and/or remoting kick ass over everything else or how u
can run flex code in yer cfm pages but not php or net, U know? all these great new
things are
yup, they just have no idea
-- Original Message --
From: Rey Bango [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 20:03:09 -0400
Man Dave, this one sentence sums up my gripes with MM:
But maybe if MM did show more of what cfm can do
: Re: CF developer numbers
Ok then, lets hear some of the things that a single-person developer
working his heart out already to pay the bills can do to increase the
market for CF developers, without giving all those opportunities to
the other 136 people who responded to the same job.
One
im a one man band as well and in a very heavily saturated market (denver) and i have
no troubles, part of it is being creative, work smarter not harder. Another is get
into a niche market and take it over.
but dont wait for the jobs to be advertised, let them know u before hand.
and the golden
Maybe I'm missing the point here but is what you are talking about = really
for MM to show/do? I don't think so.
No, my point is that MM doesn't do enough to give ColdFusion the exposure it
deserves and positioning it requires to effectively sell it. That is MM's
responsibility as the software
?
--- Ben
-Original Message-
From: Rey Bango [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 8:03 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: CF developer numbers
Man Dave, this one sentence sums up my gripes with MM:
But maybe if MM did show more of what cfm can do it would get those ppl
Bango [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 8:03 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: CF developer numbers
Man Dave, this one sentence sums up my gripes with MM:
But maybe if MM did show more of what cfm can do it would get those ppl
over from the other launguages.
You can
PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 10:51 PM
Subject: RE: CF developer numbers
Interesting thread, on a whole bunch of levels.
A few comments, and then an open question ...
1) Lots of messages imply that MM is not working on getting the word out
there. And I know for a fact
: Re: CF developer numbers
Man Dave, this one sentence sums up my gripes with MM:
But maybe if MM did show more of what cfm can do it would get those ppl
over from the other launguages.
You can throw in the kitchen sink but if you don't get the word out, it
doesn't mean squat.
Great post bud.
Rey
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: CF developer numbers
[snip]
With the changes in CFMX, the maturation of the market in general, the
tightening of the purse strings and the subsequent trend towards
consolidation and bringing projects back in house, we are finding ourselves
selling CF differently
, October 20, 2004 8:03 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: CF developer numbers
Man Dave, this one sentence sums up my gripes with MM:
But maybe if MM did show more of what cfm can do it would get those ppl
over from the other launguages.
You can throw in the kitchen sink but if you don't get
What do you think would make a difference? Or put even more bluntly, if you
were my boss and could dictate how I spent my time, what would you want me
doing to spread the gospel according to Saint CF?
What ever's going to keep MM going strong and CF becoming a better
product is what you ought
http://www.macromedia.com/v1/handlers/index.cfm?Id=19865method=full
Ryan Duckworth
Macromedia ColdFusion Certified Professional
Uhlig Communications
10983 Granada Lane
Overland Park, KS 66211
(913) 754-4272
-Original Message-
From: Barney Boisvert [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent:
in the certification poetion of mm.com there is a list of certified developers.
-Calvin
-Original Message-
From: Barney Boisvert
Date: 10/19/04 2:57 pm
To: CF-Talk
Subj: CF developer numbers
Anyone have any idea how many CF developers there are? Or perhaps
certified CF
In Sydney there are far more developers than there is work for them.
I know that to be true. Recently a contract was added to one of the
online job boards, and within 6 hours the employer had 137 resumes in
his inbox.
I could not survive on contracting 8 hours a day alone any more.
Cheers
Yes, Times, they are a'changing.
When I first discovered CF (circa 1998) I could earn $10,000 for a
typical 1-month project (the same project for the same $ took 3 months
in Perl)/
There was lots of business around and I was able to get all the jobs I
wanted.
But, one of the problems with
Subject: Re: CF developer numbers
Yes, Times, they are a'changing.
When I first discovered CF (circa 1998) I could earn $10,000 for a typical
1-month project (the same project for the same $ took 3 months in Perl)/
There was lots of business around and I was able to get all the jobs I
wanted
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