by machinery can perform.
Is this just being pedantic in trying to stick to what the great man
actually said? What is an example of a possible operation a machine
could perform that a human, digital computer or Turing machine would
be unable to perform?
--
Stathis Papaioannou
in a world; which over many (as
close to fair as possible) games would give me a net expected game.
But alas, it turns out when you do the calculations that my expected
gain is about proportional to the probability that I would actually
leave a corpse behind, which is what I wanted to avoid.
--
Stathis
or if you take into
account Boltzmann Brains that would not be a problem.
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fundamentally real time, not block
pseudo-time. I don't see any justification for such claims beyond a
desire to preserve the magic in the world.
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is
there for adding this requirement?
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2009/1/8 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com:
Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
2009/1/7 Abram Demski abramdem...@gmail.com wrote:
I would not deny causality in such a universe so long as the logical
structure enforces the Life rules (meaning, the next level in the
stack is *always* the next
watching a falling stone, running
on a digital computer. Does the observer have any way of knowing
whether the simulation is being run serially, in parallel, on how many
and what kinds of physical machines, at what speed, or in what order?
--
Stathis Papaioannou
or
block universe real is a matter of taste.
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in
the
simulated observer?
Are you suggesting that the observer would be conscious of the passage
of time through two consecutive machine states, s1 and s2, running on
the one machine m1, but not if s1 is run on m1 (which is then stopped)
and s2 run on a separate machine m2?
--
Stathis Papaioannou
the sequence s1
to s20 on a single machine m1 will give a different conscious
experience to running s1 to s10 on m1 and separately s11 to s20 on m2?
--
Stathis Papaioannou
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transfer
between the two machines was unreliable, so that the right state was
transferred only half the time?
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as a reductio against computationalism. The alternative way,
saving computationalism, is, I think, Bruno's: it isn't the physical
states giving rise to consciousness, but the computation as Platonic
object.
--
Stathis Papaioannou
--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
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of Marchalian Idealism (to coin a phrase). It's
either that or drop computationalism.
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results is a few moments of
consciousness (which is to say, assuming that computationalism is
true), what would happen if the sequence is broken in the way just
described?
--
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neuroscience is
now beyond the philosopher's thought experiment stage.
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10ms could alter
consciousness.
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everytime you were teleported.
How can you be sure that your consciousness was not suspended for the
past minute, assuming that care was taken to leave the environment
unchanged during this period?
--
Stathis Papaioannou
--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
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2009/1/17 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be:
On 16 Jan 2009, at 14:10, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
2009/1/16 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com:
But both the electronic and the mechanical computer are
implementing a process
that is distributed in spacetime and has causal connections
to proceed the same way as it would have without
the interruption?
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question should be: why does entropy increase in the same direction in
every observed part of the universe? For only if the glass shattering
occurred in a direction different to that of the mind of the observer
would something unusual be noticed.
--
Stathis Papaioannou
you feel your
consciousness more thinly spread or something?
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you will be
B, with 100% certainty. Would you say something else?
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2009/2/11 Jack Mallah jackmal...@yahoo.com:
--- On Tue, 2/10/09, Stathis Papaioannou stath...@gmail.com wrote:
It seems that the disagreement may be one about personal identity. It is not
clear to me from your paper whether you accept what Derek Parfit calls the
reductionist theory
, and continuity of consciousness is an illusion. The
question of survival is then the question of how to ensure that this
illusion continues. QI allows the illusion to continue indefinitely.
--
Stathis Papaioannou
--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
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will wake up in my bed tomorrow.
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of me simulated in that dream
should have been be infinite.
If you remember that you had a nice dream then the version of you in
the dream is continuing. And if you had forgotten it, there would be
other versions of you that didn't, as Brent suggested.
--
Stathis Papaioannou
2009/2/12 Jack Mallah jackmal...@yahoo.com:
--- On Wed, 2/11/09, Stathis Papaioannou stath...@gmail.com wrote:
I don't think it makes a difference if life is continuous or discrete: it is
still possible to assert that future versions of myself are different people
who merely experience
conclusions. Suppose you discover that
you have a disease which breaks the required continuity every time you
go to sleep, and that this has been happening your whole life. Will
you worry about falling asleep tonight? Should your property be
disposed of tomorrow according to your will?
--
Stathis
2009/2/12 Jack Mallah jackmal...@yahoo.com:
--- On Wed, 2/11/09, Stathis Papaioannou stath...@gmail.com wrote:
You agree that if one version of me goes to bed tonight and one version of
me wakes up tomorrow, then I should expect to wake up tomorrow. But if extra
versions of me
the important part of me -
mind, consciousness, soul - is preserved if the pattern making up my
brain is preserved.
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? The
following article suggests not:
http://scienceblogs.com/pontiff/2008/11/everything_and_nothing.php
I guess it is still possible that the no cul-de-sac conjecture is
correct even though some ways of avoiding death are impossible.
--
Stathis Papaioannou
or consciousness. This leaves open the possibility that my copy might
both behave *and* think the same way I do but still not be the same
person. But if that is so, then as Shoemaker says, that would make the
soul irrelevant.
--
Stathis Papaioannou
to be duplicated but
nevertheless there is no continuity of identity because the soul
cannot be duplicated.
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moment to moment due to chemical reactions
and thermal motion and we still remain the same person. If tolerances
were so tight that the no-cloning theorem is relevant then the brain
couldn't possibly function.
--
Stathis Papaioannou
--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
You
?
By that argument you could also say you are a copied fake of the John
of a year ago, since most of the matter in your body has been
replaced.
--
Stathis Papaioannou
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specially blessed, even though
nothing will actually change either subjectively or objectively.
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at a blank wall thinking of nothing for a moment, then
during that moment you might be a generic human having such a similar
experience.
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it might not really be me? If you can come
up with an answer, then it could equally well be applied to walking
across the room, which none of us do worrying that we won't survive
the experience.
--
Stathis Papaioannou
--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
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, since subjectively I cannot look forward to having any of his
experiences.
to your #2 reply:
artifact free choice of whatever seems 'best'. You might be yearning for
being a much 'better' person in many respects. Makes no sense.
I don't understand this comment.
--
Stathis Papaioannou
of of consciousness, since B1, B3, S1 and S3 are all
distinct.
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the curve is to the left of a finite age, then if he forgets how
old he is he should bet that he is younger than this age. But if the
tail is infinite, that still means he can expect to live forever.
--
Stathis Papaioannou
--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
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because they generate observer moments with the
right sort of information content.
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is that fear of death is only
partly, if at all, attenuated by rational considerations. I could
probably make my hour old backup do anything I want by holding a gun
to his head.
--
Stathis Papaioannou
--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
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, since I might end up being the copy. But after the copying this
would no longer be a consideration, and I would not hesitate to hurt
the copy or the original (depending on which one I was) no matter how
short the time since differentiation.
--
Stathis Papaioannou
; and
without my consent. OK?
Living in the first country is equivalent to allowing a contract where
you agree to a gain today at the cost of suffering tomorrow, like
selling your soul to the devil.
--
Stathis Papaioannou
--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
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in order to copy
the memories, personality etc. You may not need quantum resolution,
since in that case it is hard to see how you could avoid drastic
mental state changes while just sitting still. Also, in which TNG
episode does it mention quantum resolution for the transporter?
--
Stathis Papaioannou
creating copies 100 at a time.
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creating copies 100 at a time.
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not repeatedly.
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, or diminish my quantity or quality of consciousness once I end up
as B.
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to zero.
--
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is preserved that interests me when I think about survival.
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2009/3/9 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com wrote:
Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
2009/3/8 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com:
And if it went to zero you certainly wouldn't know and wouldn't care.
If I died I wouldn't be around to know or care, but I would care in
anticipation of dying
, where Q is the absolute utility
experienced by an individual copy, is then:
U = (M1R1Q1 + M2R2Q2) / (M1R1 + M2R2)
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with complete destruction
of the ego, such as induced by Salvia Divinorum, as equivalent to a
period of unconsciousness or an unrelated person's consciousness,
provided there were no memory of the event as the experience was
resolving.
--
Stathis Papaioannou
are lost and never return, then we
may as well say the original person has died.
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to explain the atoms from a notion of
continuity of persons, and I think the continuity is not in the
memories, but in the self-referential loop itself.
--
Stathis Papaioannou
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you are calculating subjective
probabilities as the (in general far less common) worlds where there
is no such gap.
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Stathis Papaioannou
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would be more generic than the
feeling + superimposed complex cognition, since the latter would have
higher information content.
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. When I use the term
memory in discussions on personal identity I assume that it covers
this sort of memory as well as the memory of who I am and what the
last word I typed was.
--
Stathis Papaioannou
--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
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to be less significant.
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physical system (which could be mapped onto
any information or any computation) would be conscious. This is only a
drawback if you believe, I guess as a matter of faith, that it is
false.
--
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is ignorant but systematic? If so, how could the
computation know about the psychological state of the operator?
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2009/4/24 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com:
Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
2009/4/23 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com:
Say a machine is in two separate parts M1 and M2, and the information
on M1 in state A is written to a punchcard, walked over to M2, loaded,
and M2 goes into state B
consists in the information.
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.) :-)
Do you think a computation would feel different from the inside
depending on whether it was done with pencil and paper, transistors or
vacuum tubes?
--
Stathis Papaioannou
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possibly be discontinuous if this was done, for
where would the information that tells you you've been chopped up
reside?
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be with
respect to another part. So we return to the position whereby a rock
could implement any finite state machine, if you only look at it the
right way.
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have maintained a series of non-random OM's
orderly enough and long enough to compose this post. All you can be
certain about is your present OM, and it may be the only OM in all the
universes, anywhere or ever. In ot
--
Stathis Papaioannou
2009/4/28 Stathis Papaioannou stath...@gmail.com:
2009/4/27 Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com:
I am not sure that the measure problem can be so easily
abandoned/ignored. Assuming every Observer Moment had has an equal
measure, then the random/white-noise filled OMs should vastly
outnumber
2009/4/28 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be:
Sure. I will ask a bank to lend me huge amount of money, I promise
them to reimburse when I will win ten times the big lottery in a row.
Not so far fetched, really.
--
Stathis Papaioannou
--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
You
parties.
The funds required for this purpose are obtained by a tax levied against the
non-drinkers.
Finally an explanation I understand ...
JohnM
Excellent story, worth the brief deviation from the thread topic!
--
Stathis Papaioannou
,
that you can't slice consciousness arbitrarily finely in time.
Could the question be settled by actual experiment, i.e. asking the
subject if they noticed anything unusual?
--
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nothing to bind it together other than the content of the individual
OM's.
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arbitrarily finely in time.
Could the question be settled by actual experiment, i.e. asking the
subject if they noticed anything unusual?
--
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For this you would need an actual AI and also that everybody agreed on
the fact that this AI is conscious and not a zombie
with Brent that this association won't
happen (or at least, there will be a gap at the seams) unless the
computers are causally connected.
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activity, since at one extreme the Rock
argument allows that any computation is implemented by the null
state). Chalmers tries to rescue computationalism in the paper cited
by arguing that the Rock argument is not valid.
--
Stathis Papaioannou
--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
You
carry out with a human
subject in the foreseeable future there would be noticeable gaps in
consciousness, due to technical factors. What about the virtual
reality experiment above?
--
Stathis Papaioannou
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of
consciousness ramped down and ramped up again rather than
instantaneously turning off and on, but if these technical factors
could be controlled for how could you possibly notice a gap?
--
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that computationalism is false or else that computationalism is
true and dependent on physical activity and therefore that the
argument is invalid.
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observers), or that the computation does not supervene on physical
activity at all.
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system you choose, by non completely trivial application of computer
science. And to use a primitive quantum computer for a primitive
physics is treachery with respect to the comp mind body problem.
OK?
OK, I think. Thanks for taking the time to reply!
--
Stathis Papaioannou
, then that would
result in expanding our consciousness?
Perhaps. But saying that something would be nice doesn't have any any
bearing whatsoever on whether it is so.
--
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2009/5/7 daddycay...@msn.com:
On May 4, 6:13 am, Stathis Papaioannou stath...@gmail.com wrote:
2009/5/4 daddycay...@msn.com:
I agree that religion, and a lot of other stuff, produces a lot of
fake certainty. Not good. So that implies that atheism is the way to
go?
But doesn't
do, because the evidence demands it.
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immortality experiments don't create any more worlds than there
otherwise would be. In the multiverse as a whole, only a very small
number of worlds contain versions of you who survived a direct nuclear
blast. In almost all the worlds, you have died.
--
Stathis Papaioannou
(in a non-living-dead sort of way), no?
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an expert than from a random person. But of course,
experts cannot always be right, and historically many things that
scientists have believed even unanimously have turned out to be wrong.
--
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of either type.
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is in the subjective past.
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, quantum immortality and so on we are
talking about how this illusion unfolds.
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2009/6/16 David Nyman david.ny...@gmail.com:
On Jun 16, 1:04 am, Stathis Papaioannou stath...@gmail.com wrote:
The only OM's you can experience are those in which your
present OM is in the subjective past.
So you are saying that - given my 'current' OM - sampling is
restricted to the set
.
As Bruno said, a branching algorithm can produce true randomness from
the perspective of the embedded observer.
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behave the same way as the
original brain (if weak AI is true) and have the same experiences as
the original brain (if strong AI is true).
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.
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the brain activity means, let alone what it feels
like from the brain's point of view. But would it be possible for the
brain's activity to be deliberately obscured such that not even the
syntax can be guessed at, the equivalent of encryption using a
one-time pad?
--
Stathis Papaioannou
that there are constraints on the proposed remapping, so that it isn't
actually possible to map any sufficiently complex physical system onto
a given finite state machine?
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2009/8/26 David Nyman david.ny...@gmail.com:
On 25 Aug, 14:32, Stathis Papaioannou stath...@gmail.com wrote:
Let's say the alien brain in its initial environment produced a
certain output when it was presented with a certain input, such as a
red light. The reconstructed brain
of functionalism. Maybe
that level corresponds to the level at which the organism acts; the
functions evolved to support and direct actions. Rocks don't act so
they don't have any functional level.
--
Stathis Papaioannou
--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
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into thinking everything is the same.
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