[FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, cardemaister no_reply@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@ wrote: Could you try translating that to English, please? Thanks. L. Just noticed that Vyaasa's comment(ary?) of that suutra is quite a lot simpler (less mystifying than Bhoja's). I'll try to translate that next week. Just tried to do that, but had to give up because that's quite a lot trickier than I first thought. :/ http://www.yogaawayoflife.net/serv04.htm
[FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
Thanks Jim, I loved the description of the East in reference to Bhakti. You were one of the few lone heart centered lotuses I encountered in the muddy intellectual ponds of FFL Batgap, and I can clearly see the impact of your childhood in the East. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, whynotnow7 whynotnow7@... wrote: I like reading your stuff Ravi - Bhakti Yoga. In SE Asia I grew up on it. It was always in the air. Literally. What I remember was the air always smelled like life, kind of fruity, with rot and diesel and tobacco and dust mixed in. It HAD a smell. Life seems closer, less abstract there. Fruit bats filling the evening sky between the corrugated roofs, near the Presidential Palace in Bogor, Indonesia, on Java. The beating sun searing above the horizon at seven, then during the monsoon season, watching walls of rain sweeping down the street. In the tropics, Nature envelops you. Seed of Bhakti Yoga. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@ wrote: Bill - Thank you. If I understand you correctly, it seems as if you had too much energy. And later you crashed. I would characterize it as a rise and coast. It's only an apparent crash, not crash landing or crashing down to earth. Using the analogy of an airplane the crash from rise to coast is only apparent or temporary, we have already gained elevation. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@ wrote: Thank you so much Ravi!! You have a very interesting story. And I can now see your inability to sleep for those periods is something quite different than what might happen in TM. If I understand you correctly, it seems as if you had too much energy. And later you crashed. It has some associative points of contact with manic-depressive states. I am just knowledgeable enough to know that kundalini-style yoga seems to emphasize moving energy around the various chakras. The problem in TM seems to be that the recognition within oneself of this silent innerlayer never leaves even during sleep. Your state was high energy, the TM state during sleep might be compared to a dimly lit candle-- but one nevertheless never goes out even during sleep. I am go thankful that you nshard this with me. I have a great awareness now of what happened to you and maybe it is also a cautionary tale against using this type of yoga in some cases. Cheers Bill Â
[FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
Thanks Ravi. I was very fortunate to have had that experience. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@... wrote: Thanks Jim, I loved the description of the East in reference to Bhakti. You were one of the few lone heart centered lotuses I encountered in the muddy intellectual ponds of FFL Batgap, and I can clearly see the impact of your childhood in the East. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, whynotnow7 whynotnow7@ wrote: I like reading your stuff Ravi - Bhakti Yoga. In SE Asia I grew up on it. It was always in the air. Literally. What I remember was the air always smelled like life, kind of fruity, with rot and diesel and tobacco and dust mixed in. It HAD a smell. Life seems closer, less abstract there. Fruit bats filling the evening sky between the corrugated roofs, near the Presidential Palace in Bogor, Indonesia, on Java. The beating sun searing above the horizon at seven, then during the monsoon season, watching walls of rain sweeping down the street. In the tropics, Nature envelops you. Seed of Bhakti Yoga. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@ wrote: Bill - Thank you. If I understand you correctly, it seems as if you had too much energy. And later you crashed. I would characterize it as a rise and coast. It's only an apparent crash, not crash landing or crashing down to earth. Using the analogy of an airplane the crash from rise to coast is only apparent or temporary, we have already gained elevation. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@ wrote: Thank you so much Ravi!! You have a very interesting story. And I can now see your inability to sleep for those periods is something quite different than what might happen in TM. If I understand you correctly, it seems as if you had too much energy. And later you crashed. It has some associative points of contact with manic-depressive states. I am just knowledgeable enough to know that kundalini-style yoga seems to emphasize moving energy around the various chakras. The problem in TM seems to be that the recognition within oneself of this silent innerlayer never leaves even during sleep. Your state was high energy, the TM state during sleep might be compared to a dimly lit candle-- but one nevertheless never goes out even during sleep. I am go thankful that you nshard this with me. I have a great awareness now of what happened to you and maybe it is also a cautionary tale against using this type of yoga in some cases. Cheers Bill Â
[FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
The TM mantras appear repeatedly in numerous different tantras... cardemaister: Gotta admit that might be true, actually! Think 'twas prolly Mahaa-nirvaaNa-tantra or somesuch that has my mantra... White 'Tara' in Vajrayana Buddhism is 'Sarasvati' in Hindu Sri Vidya. According to Blofield, White Tara counteracts illness and thereby helps to bring about a long life. The Tara sadhana was revealed to the Nath Siddha Tilopa in 995 C.E., who is the human father of the Karma Kagyu sect of Tibet. Read more: 'The Tantric Mysticism of Tibet' A Practical Guide to the Theory, Purpose, and Techniques of Tantric Meditation by John Blofeld Penguin, 1992 'The Cult of Tara' Magic and Ritual in Tibet by Stephen Beyer University of California Press 1992
[FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
Yes. I have no power, no shakti, whatsoever, but my particle-Is or devatas believe in me utterly, and in that faith they manifest whatever I tell or give them. Having no siddhis, I bestow all siddhis on them, and enjoy all things through them. They are my Shakti, and I am their Shiva :-) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, whynotnow7 whynotnow7@... wrote: I have no way of knowing, though perhaps Maharishi set this particular, and practically impossible definition of UC to ensure that all of us understood enlightenment or realization to be an ever expanding process, once we experience our initial Awakening. Seems to me that particular sidhis go with particular nervous systems, much as each of us becomes an engineer or doctor or circus clown. I haven't looked for success with them, though my ability for subtle sight continues to grow, as does my ability for healing through visualization of body energy. Nothing I cultivate. Like I said it just happens. I wouldn't be at all surprised if others found that a particular sidhi jumped out at them so to speak. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@ wrote: Yo Lawson I wouldn't take MMY's words seriously. You may have some beliefs regarding what UC and full liberation is and I don't agree with it. TM is clearly a path of yoga with milestones, description and categories of enlightenment. The fact that I haven't heard one TM'er experience match all these shows that perhaps there's another reason why MMY would have gone to so much trouble to state all these. IMO he might have prescribed these understanding the Rajasic, goal oriented nature of the human mind. Other than a Jim here or a Rory there the literal interpretation of this has resulted in widespread prevalence of what I call pimps(intellectuals) among TM'ers totally fascinated with the whore (intellect). I don't think self-knowledge has anything to do with Siddhis, sure there seem to be varying degrees of self-knowledge based upon the external manifestation of it. According to their predominant samkaras - some become Gurus, some debate with others, a lot just continue in their respective professions, some just fall out of the society and wander enjoying their bliss. In either case I think I agree that full liberation would not be possible until you drop the physical body. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@ wrote: Yo, William, don't take them too seriously. According to MMY, if you can't perform any and all of the sidhis (e.g. Yogic Flying) then you're not truly in Unity Consciousness. Now, for those who like to play semantic games with the above, I'll take it back a step: if, immediately prior to Full Liberation, you don't find yourself able to perform all the Sidhis to perfection during sutra practice during your participation in the TM/TM-SIdhis program, then you are probably not fully enlightened, no matter what your perceptions suggest. MMY himself once hinted that that was one of the reasons why he realized the world wasn't quite how it should be when he was off on his own, meditating after his guru dev died: he wasn't doing/experiencing some of the stuff that was predicted for someone in his apparent state of consciousness and finally concluded that the current state of the world's consciousness wouldn't support full enlightenment, and eventually set out to remedy the situation. L.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
Lawson, thank you for the excellent collection of links on TM research. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@ wrote: L., forgive me, but I went though my old posts, which had several from you and none had any links for further research. Did I miss one of them? Cheers Bill Re: The Soul is extracted and judged by weight An email I fired off recently might be of interest to you: Dear Professor Brown, I just finished reading your article, Doubt as Methodology and Object in the Phenomenology of Religion, found in M/C Journal http://www.journal.media-culture.org.au/index.php/mcjournal/article/viewArticle/\ 334 ... I'd like to present the TM theoretical take of the Vedic philosophy and ask that you reconsider calling TM a religion, per se: Rather than theories or beliefs about God, the Universe and Everything that are strictly the product of the specific culture that they are found in, TM theory asserts that these are cultural interpretations of states of consciousness that are natural to humans, regardless of culture. TM theory further asserts that TM is a technique (in the same sense that the Way that cannot be spoken is a technique) that increases the probability that practitioners will enter into the state of consciousness called turya -pure consciousness- in the Upanishads. The theory further asserts that long-term practice of TM, alternated with normal activity, leads to the situation called turyatita (quality of turya) where turya is omni-present, in some sense, in the individual. This theory is nothing new. You can find it, with minor variations, in various places. E.G. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turiya What IS unique to TM theory, however, are the assertions that: 1) turya is a physiological state of the brain in the Western scientific sense, that can be measured using the tools of Western science; 2) that turyatita is likewise a measurable state; 3) that turya is the state of least stress in a resting nervous system; 4) the process of TM is merely a resting state of the nervous system that repairs stress (note that obvious episodes of turya are NOT required for this resting state to be effective --one can become fully enlightened according to TM theory, without ever having a clear experience of turya during meditation, at least prior to full enlightenment); 4) turyatita is merely a state in mature adults whose nervous systems are sufficiently strong and mature due to lack of physiological stress that turya is evident, even during waking, dreaming and sleeping. this leads to the logical conclusion that turyatita is NOT some esoteric state, and that the physiological signature of turya during meditation should more likely appear, not only in long-term practitioners of TM contrasted with non-meditating or short-term meditating controls, but also in non-meditators whose success in life suggests that their nervous systems are very efficient, e.g.: world champion athletes (as compared to non-champion professionals in the same sport), professional classical musicians (as compared to amateur classical musicians) and high-functioning business managers as compared to their less successful counterparts. Research on the physiological correlates of turya found during TM practice: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7045911 Breath suspension during the transcendental meditation technique. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10512549 Pure consciousness: distinct phenomenological and physiological correlates of consciousness itself. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9009807 Autonomic patterns during respiratory suspensions: possible markers of Transcendental Consciousness. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10487785 Autonomic and EEG patterns during eyes-closed rest and transcendental meditation (TM) practice: the basis for a neural model of TM practice. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19862565 A self-referential default brain state: patterns of coherence, power, and eLORETA sources during eyes-closed rest and Transcendental Meditation practice. Research on the physiological correlates of turyatita in long-term TM meditators: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12406612 Patterns of EEG coherence, power, and contingent negative variation characterize the integration of transcendental and waking states. http://www.tm.org/american-psychological-association Abstract for the 2007 Conference of the American Psychological Association Brain Integration Scale: Corroborating Language-based â¨Instruments of Post-conventional Development Research on the physiological correlates of turyatita in non-meditators: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10./j.1600-0838.2009.01007.x/full Higher psycho-physiological refinement in world-class Norwegian athletes: brain measures
[FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@... wrote: Did you and Ravi (are you there?) engage in this more dedicated practice of TM? No like I said I didn't engage in any advanced practices. IME the result does not seem to be proportional to the effort Which effort is that? L.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@... wrote: Could you try translating that to English, please? Thanks. L. Just noticed that Vyaasa's comment(ary?) of that suutra is quite a lot simpler (less mystifying than Bhoja's). I'll try to translate that next week. But I guess many people here have a translation of at least Vyaasa's commentary... --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, cardemaister no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: On Jul 15, 2011, at 4:54 PM, sparaig wrote: Certainly that is the case, that the TM researchers thought (and still do) that these episodes are significant. I'm curious as to why you think they are not? Because there's been nothing demonstrated as outside the normal realm of waking-dreaming-sleeping for one. But the primary source is yogic literature itself, which defines the different types of breath suspensions in considerable detail. The Hindu science of breath is quite detailed. Hmm...at least Bhojadeva in his commentary on YS, seems to define the fourth praaNaayaama simply as 'stambha-ruupo gati- vicchedaH': tau dvau viShayAvAkShipya paryAlochya yaH stambharUpI (?typo; I think it should be 'stambharUpo') gativichChedaH sa chaturthaH prANAyAmaH
[FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: On Jul 15, 2011, at 4:54 PM, sparaig wrote: Certainly that is the case, that the TM researchers thought (and still do) that these episodes are significant. I'm curious as to why you think they are not? Because there's been nothing demonstrated as outside the normal realm of waking-dreaming-sleeping for one. But the primary source is yogic literature itself, which defines the different types of breath suspensions in considerable detail. The Hindu science of breath is quite detailed. Hmm...at least Bhojadeva in his commentary on YS, seems to define the fourth praaNaayaama simply as 'stambha-ruupo gati- vicchedaH': tau dvau viShayAvAkShipya paryAlochya yaH stambharUpI (?typo; I think it should be 'stambharUpo') gativichChedaH sa chaturthaH prANAyAmaH
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
On Jul 16, 2011, at 4:30 AM, cardemaister wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: On Jul 15, 2011, at 4:54 PM, sparaig wrote: Certainly that is the case, that the TM researchers thought (and still do) that these episodes are significant. I'm curious as to why you think they are not? Because there's been nothing demonstrated as outside the normal realm of waking-dreaming-sleeping for one. But the primary source is yogic literature itself, which defines the different types of breath suspensions in considerable detail. The Hindu science of breath is quite detailed. Hmm...at least Bhojadeva in his commentary on YS, seems to define the fourth praaNaayaama simply as 'stambha-ruupo gati- vicchedaH': tau dvau viShayAvAkShipya paryAlochya yaH stambharUpI (?typo; I think it should be 'stambharUpo') gativichChedaH sa chaturthaH prANAyAmaH The fourth pranayama, as explained numerous times before, is in no way related to TM-based apneas. It's defined and experienced quite differently. The fourth pranayama is alluded to in the tales of a number of sages and deities whereby they suffocate the world through their practice, the beings thereby being forced to seek refuge in god. Once perfected, days, months or years, the yogin decides. It's completely under the will.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
On Jul 15, 2011, at 11:27 PM, sparaig wrote: These days, scientists call it the default mode of the brain. Which scientists are these? Lemme guess, from MUM?
[FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: On Jul 15, 2011, at 11:27 PM, sparaig wrote: These days, scientists call it the default mode of the brain. Which scientists are these? Lemme guess, from MUM? Doesn't seem to be. I couldn't find anything in a search for default mode of the brain and transcendental meditation. Couldn't find anything for default mode of the brain and pure consciousness either, however. Default mode of the brain is a common enough concept in neuroscience: The default network is a network of brain regions that are active when the individual is not focused on the outside world and the brain is at wakeful rest. Also called the default mode network (DMN), default state network, or task- negative network (TNN), it is characterized by coherent neuronal oscillations at a rate lower than 0.1 Hz (one every ten seconds). During goal-oriented activity, the DMN is deactivated and another network, the task-positive network (TPN) is activated. It is thought that the default network corresponds to task-independent introspection, or self-referential thought, while the TPN corresponds to action, and that perhaps the TNN and TPN may be considered elements of a single default network with anti-correlated components.[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Default_network Good basic article: http://www.latimes.com/health/la-he-brain-20100830,0,479095.story Given the neuroscience definition of the brain's default mode, it would certainly seem that TM's pure consciousness is the least-active state thereof.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: On Jul 16, 2011, at 4:30 AM, cardemaister wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: On Jul 15, 2011, at 4:54 PM, sparaig wrote: Certainly that is the case, that the TM researchers thought (and still do) that these episodes are significant. I'm curious as to why you think they are not? Because there's been nothing demonstrated as outside the normal realm of waking-dreaming-sleeping for one. But the primary source is yogic literature itself, which defines the different types of breath suspensions in considerable detail. The Hindu science of breath is quite detailed. Hmm...at least Bhojadeva in his commentary on YS, seems to define the fourth praaNaayaama simply as 'stambha-ruupo gati- vicchedaH': tau dvau viShayAvAkShipya paryAlochya yaH stambharUpI (?typo; I think it should be 'stambharUpo') gativichChedaH sa chaturthaH prANAyAmaH The fourth pranayama, as explained numerous times before, is in no way related to TM-based apneas. It's defined and experienced quite differently. The fourth pranayama is alluded to in the tales of a number of sages and deities whereby they suffocate the world through their practice, the beings thereby being forced to seek refuge in god. Once perfected, days, months or years, the yogin decides. It's completely under the will.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: On Jul 16, 2011, at 4:30 AM, cardemaister wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: On Jul 15, 2011, at 4:54 PM, sparaig wrote: Certainly that is the case, that the TM researchers thought (and still do) that these episodes are significant. I'm curious as to why you think they are not? Because there's been nothing demonstrated as outside the normal realm of waking-dreaming-sleeping for one. But the primary source is yogic literature itself, which defines the different types of breath suspensions in considerable detail. The Hindu science of breath is quite detailed. Hmm...at least Bhojadeva in his commentary on YS, seems to define the fourth praaNaayaama simply as 'stambha-ruupo gati- vicchedaH': tau dvau viShayAvAkShipya paryAlochya yaH stambharUpI (?typo; I think it should be 'stambharUpo') gativichChedaH sa chaturthaH prANAyAmaH The fourth pranayama, as explained numerous times before, is in no way related to TM-based apneas. Only wanted to point out that by Bhojadeva's definition caturthaH praaNaayaamaH *seems* to be quite a simple thing... It's defined and experienced quite differently. The fourth pranayama is alluded to in the tales of a number of sages and deities whereby they suffocate the world through their practice, the beings thereby being forced to seek refuge in god. Perhaps they just wanted to mystify it! :D Once perfected, days, months or years, the yogin decides. It's completely under the will.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
Could you try translating that to English, please? Thanks. L. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, cardemaister no_reply@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: On Jul 15, 2011, at 4:54 PM, sparaig wrote: Certainly that is the case, that the TM researchers thought (and still do) that these episodes are significant. I'm curious as to why you think they are not? Because there's been nothing demonstrated as outside the normal realm of waking-dreaming-sleeping for one. But the primary source is yogic literature itself, which defines the different types of breath suspensions in considerable detail. The Hindu science of breath is quite detailed. Hmm...at least Bhojadeva in his commentary on YS, seems to define the fourth praaNaayaama simply as 'stambha-ruupo gati- vicchedaH': tau dvau viShayAvAkShipya paryAlochya yaH stambharUpI (?typo; I think it should be 'stambharUpo') gativichChedaH sa chaturthaH prANAyAmaH
[FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: On Jul 15, 2011, at 11:27 PM, sparaig wrote: These days, scientists call it the default mode of the brain. Which scientists are these? Lemme guess, from MUM? Let me guess: you don't know how to use google? L.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: On Jul 16, 2011, at 4:30 AM, cardemaister wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: On Jul 15, 2011, at 4:54 PM, sparaig wrote: Certainly that is the case, that the TM researchers thought (and still do) that these episodes are significant. I'm curious as to why you think they are not? Because there's been nothing demonstrated as outside the normal realm of waking-dreaming-sleeping for one. But the primary source is yogic literature itself, which defines the different types of breath suspensions in considerable detail. The Hindu science of breath is quite detailed. Hmm...at least Bhojadeva in his commentary on YS, seems to define the fourth praaNaayaama simply as 'stambha-ruupo gati- vicchedaH': tau dvau viShayAvAkShipya paryAlochya yaH stambharUpI (?typo; I think it should be 'stambharUpo') gativichChedaH sa chaturthaH prANAyAmaH The fourth pranayama, as explained numerous times before, is in no way related to TM-based apneas. It's defined and experienced quite differently. The fourth pranayama is alluded to in the tales of a number of sages and deities whereby they suffocate the world through their practice, the beings thereby being forced to seek refuge in god. Once perfected, days, months or years, the yogin decides. It's completely under the will. That's why its called spontaneous in the Yoga Sutras... L.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
On Jul 14, 2011, at 9:46 PM, sparaig wrote: However, what I meant by there's alpha and then there's alpha is a reference to the specific pattern(s) that show up during TM, especially during the pure consciousness state. Alleged pure consciousness state. I don't believe anyone accepts that metaphysical speculation except TM folks - esp. since we now have a much clearer idea of what the EEG of samadhi looks like and what it's physiological results are at the cellular level. Sadly, it has not been seen in TM so far.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
On Jul 14, 2011, at 9:48 PM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: On Jul 14, 2011, at 4:06 PM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@ wrote: [...] Thank you also Turq (Lawson) for your warm welcome too. There is much I still have to learn about TM, but also about the members here.� Still it has been heuristically useful for me to say the least!� � Um I note that you not only confused me with someone else but you never bothered to respond to my links to research on stuff... Gotta wonder. I believe he is deeply familiar with meditation research in general. Those aren't meditation research in general studies. Those are studies on a specific state found within TM and apparently not elsewhere. At least, I can't find any reference to breath suspension [or synonyms] and meditation except the TM research. It turned out to be insignificant, except of course to TM researchers who want to believe the apnea episodes are significant.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
L., no wonder I never saw it. I did not read any posts in this thread. Normally I don't read other threads here unless they pertain directly to meditation. I don't read the political ones, nor a variety of other threads. The e-mail you sent, and its relevancy, I think falls upon how you want to define TM. In your e-mail you are pressing the points based only on the meditative technique and the state of consciousness that it produces. Nevertheless, when viewed through the prism of religious scholarship, I think any scholar would see the TM organization is being profoundly steeped in Hinduism. There are so many points of contact between the TM organization and normative Hindu beliefs that I don't think anyone can really question that. Personally, I have always viewed Maharishi as being a perfectly orthodox Hindu, at least within his own Advaita tradition. By the way, my old TM teacher has told me that he thought that one day there would be a bifurcation of the organization. There would be a Western branch and an Indian branch. The Western branch would emphasize exactly the points that you have brought up here and no doubt divest itself of some of the more overt mystical and Hindu elements. The Indian branch, would of course, cloak itself in the garb of Hinduism, which is entirely appropriate. Anyway, I am sorry I missed this, but I didn't read any posts in this particular thread. Was this the particular link you were pointing out in your other post to me? Cheers Bill From: sparaig lengli...@cox.net To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 6:59 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote: L., forgive me, but I went though my old posts, which had several from you and none had any links for further research. Did I miss one of them? Cheers Bill Re: The Soul is extracted and judged by weight An email I fired off recently might be of interest to you: Dear Professor Brown, I just finished reading your article, Doubt as Methodology and Object in the Phenomenology of Religion, found in M/C Journal http://www.journal.media-culture.org.au/index.php/mcjournal/article/viewArticle/\ 334 ... I'd like to present the TM theoretical take of the Vedic philosophy and ask that you reconsider calling TM a religion, per se: Rather than theories or beliefs about God, the Universe and Everything that are strictly the product of the specific culture that they are found in, TM theory asserts that these are cultural interpretations of states of consciousness that are natural to humans, regardless of culture. TM theory further asserts that TM is a technique (in the same sense that the Way that cannot be spoken is a technique) that increases the probability that practitioners will enter into the state of consciousness called turya -pure consciousness- in the Upanishads. The theory further asserts that long-term practice of TM, alternated with normal activity, leads to the situation called turyatita (quality of turya) where turya is omni-present, in some sense, in the individual. This theory is nothing new. You can find it, with minor variations, in various places. E.G. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turiya What IS unique to TM theory, however, are the assertions that: 1) turya is a physiological state of the brain in the Western scientific sense, that can be measured using the tools of Western science; 2) that turyatita is likewise a measurable state; 3) that turya is the state of least stress in a resting nervous system; 4) the process of TM is merely a resting state of the nervous system that repairs stress (note that obvious episodes of turya are NOT required for this resting state to be effective --one can become fully enlightened according to TM theory, without ever having a clear experience of turya during meditation, at least prior to full enlightenment); 4) turyatita is merely a state in mature adults whose nervous systems are sufficiently strong and mature due to lack of physiological stress that turya is evident, even during waking, dreaming and sleeping. this leads to the logical conclusion that turyatita is NOT some esoteric state, and that the physiological signature of turya during meditation should more likely appear, not only in long-term practitioners of TM contrasted with non-meditating or short-term meditating controls, but also in non-meditators whose success in life suggests that their nervous systems are very efficient, e.g.: world champion athletes (as compared to non-champion professionals in the same sport), professional classical musicians (as compared to amateur classical musicians) and high-functioning business managers as compared to their less successful counterparts. Research on the physiological correlates of turya found during TM practice: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7045911 Breath suspension during the transcendental meditation
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
Thank you so much Ravi!! You have a very interesting story. And I can now see your inability to sleep for those periods is something quite different than what might happen in TM. If I understand you correctly, it seems as if you had too much energy. And later you crashed. It has some associative points of contact with manic-depressive states. I am just knowledgeable enough to know that kundalini-style yoga seems to emphasize moving energy around the various chakras. The problem in TM seems to be that the recognition within oneself of this silent innerlayer never leaves even during sleep. Your state was high energy, the TM state during sleep might be compared to a dimly lit candle-- but one nevertheless never goes out even during sleep. I am go thankful that you nshard this with me. I have a great awareness now of what happened to you and maybe it is also a cautionary tale against using this type of yoga in some cases. Cheers Bill From: Ravi Yogi raviy...@att.net To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 10:27 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote: Unlike Ravi, Jim, and perhaps Robin, I really find the whole notion of not sleeping very troubling. Bill, I have to clarify that I mostly sleep like a log now, I did mention that I didn't sleep much for a few months during my Kundalini descension and explained that I believe now that it was an unnatural state since my body had decided it was under threat and probably never triggered the right chemicals that would let me fall asleep. In any event I want to make this my last post on the subject, given that it has developed into some side issues that I never meant to dig up. No worries - welcome to FFL, threads veer off in all different directions and several are hijacked for personal battles. Pretty soon you will be familiar with the opposing players and if need be either indulge or learn techniques to steer clear. Thx so much Barry. I took your admonishment seriously and I felt, and do still feel, it was heartfelt. And yes you are right. I have taken them at their word, even though I know this is such a subjective thing. Nevertheless, even if they only got close to so-called 'Enlightenment' it is very interesting to talk to them and see what state of mind they were in and what effect it had on their personal lives. I have to clarify that I have never used the E word, I only share my experiencesin the hope it might help or inspire someone.In fact I frequently sometimes I think there's something wrong with me, my personal situation is messed up, there's lot of strife,struggle in the world, the problems require someone mature and responsible but yet here I am I feel blissed out for no reason and act in a silly playful manner like a child. Ravi, I would still be very interested in hearing what you have to say concerning how, and in what way, these types of intense periods of illumination has helped you. I would have to first briefly describe these intense periods of illumination. Over a period of 7 years I went through a several stages which I would refer to as Kundalini ascension, each experience lasted a week or 2 where as the energy ascended to my head I noticed heightened sensitivity, intense emotions and toward the end, intense derealization depersonalization ending in a powerful surge of energy that would leave me in an absolute dread and then boom it would be gone and I would sleep exhausted. The end phase almost happened in the night time with heightened senses as if on guard against an attack. I would return to normal consciousness the next day. I have to add a quick disclaimer here that I have never tried any psychedelic drugs or never been on any prescription medication ever. However the period above was followed by intense personal problems with my marriage, wanting to feel love and be loved, being in a emotionally abusive relationship. I had a final intense one in 2009, however unlike the previous ones when I got up the next morning I was in intense bliss, as if intense blissful energy had entered in to me. This episode lasted 3 weeks and was one of the 2 episodes of Kundalini descension, the other one in April-May last year which everyone here is aware of because of my erratic behavior.The first in 2009 for 3 weeks and second for 6 weeks. Unlike the previous experiences which were very uncomfortable, this was pure bliss which increased in intensity, I felt as if energy was descending in droves, as each day progressed and at the end I went through a stage of psychosis which helped my body, mind, ego to make the transition. The state of psychosis was only a few hours during the first whereas in the second it was much intense and over a period of 5 days. After I hit the peak, the psychosis enabled me to survive, and it took me up to
[FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: On Jul 14, 2011, at 9:46 PM, sparaig wrote: However, what I meant by there's alpha and then there's alpha is a reference to the specific pattern(s) that show up during TM, especially during the pure consciousness state. Alleged pure consciousness state. I don't believe anyone accepts that metaphysical speculation except TM folks - esp. since we now have a much clearer idea of what the EEG of samadhi looks like and what it's physiological results are at the cellular level. Sadly, it has not been seen in TM so far. That assumes that what you are referring to is the real deal while what I am referring to is not. What is fun about *my* real deal pure consciousness state is that it is found in self-actualizing non-meditators. Is yours? L.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: On Jul 14, 2011, at 9:48 PM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: On Jul 14, 2011, at 4:06 PM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@ wrote: [...] Thank you also Turq (Lawson) for your warm welcome too. There is much I still have to learn about TM, but also about the members here.� Still it has been heuristically useful for me to say the least!� � Um I note that you not only confused me with someone else but you never bothered to respond to my links to research on stuff... Gotta wonder. I believe he is deeply familiar with meditation research in general. Those aren't meditation research in general studies. Those are studies on a specific state found within TM and apparently not elsewhere. At least, I can't find any reference to breath suspension [or synonyms] and meditation except the TM research. It turned out to be insignificant, except of course to TM researchers who want to believe the apnea episodes are significant. Certainly that is the case, that the TM researchers thought (and still do) that these episodes are significant. I'm curious as to why you think they are not? L.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
Sorry, I thought I responded directly to you in that original posting. Shrug. As for the rest, it is certainly possible though, I think that even MMY's nephew wants to maintain an aura of scientific respectability so the schism won't be near as obvious as you suggest. L --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote: L., no wonder I never saw it. I did not read any posts in this thread. Normally I don't read other threads here unless they pertain directly to meditation. I don't read the political ones, nor a variety of other threads. The e-mail you sent, and its relevancy, I think falls upon how you want to define TM. In your e-mail you are pressing the points based only on the meditative technique and the state of consciousness that it produces. Nevertheless, when viewed through the prism of religious scholarship, I think any scholar would see the TM organization is being profoundly steeped in Hinduism. There are so many points of contact between the TM organization and normative Hindu beliefs that I don't think anyone can really question that. Personally, I have always viewed Maharishi as being a perfectly orthodox Hindu, at least within his own Advaita tradition. By the way, my old TM teacher has told me that he thought that one day there would be a bifurcation of the organization. There would be a Western branch and an Indian branch. The Western branch would emphasize exactly the points that you have brought up here and no doubt divest itself of some of the more overt mystical and Hindu elements. The Indian branch, would of course, cloak itself in the garb of Hinduism, which is entirely appropriate. Anyway, I am sorry I missed this, but I didn't read any posts in this particular thread. Was this the particular link you were pointing out in your other post to me? Cheers Bill
[FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
Bill - Thank you. If I understand you correctly, it seems as if you had too much energy. And later you crashed. I would characterize it as a rise and coast. It's only an apparent crash, not crash landing or crashing down to earth. Using the analogy of an airplane the crash from rise to coast is only apparent or temporary, we have already gained elevation. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote: Thank you so much Ravi!! You have a very interesting story. And I can now see your inability to sleep for those periods is something quite different than what might happen in TM. If I understand you correctly, it seems as if you had too much energy. And later you crashed. It has some associative points of contact with manic-depressive states. I am just knowledgeable enough to know that kundalini-style yoga seems to emphasize moving energy around the various chakras. The problem in TM seems to be that the recognition within oneself of this silent innerlayer never leaves even during sleep. Your state was high energy, the TM state during sleep might be compared to a dimly lit candle-- but one nevertheless never goes out even during sleep. I am go thankful that you nshard this with me. I have a great awareness now of what happened to you and maybe it is also a cautionary tale against using this type of yoga in some cases. Cheers Bill Â
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
On Jul 15, 2011, at 4:53 PM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: On Jul 14, 2011, at 9:46 PM, sparaig wrote: However, what I meant by there's alpha and then there's alpha is a reference to the specific pattern(s) that show up during TM, especially during the pure consciousness state. Alleged pure consciousness state. I don't believe anyone accepts that metaphysical speculation except TM folks - esp. since we now have a much clearer idea of what the EEG of samadhi looks like and what it's physiological results are at the cellular level. Sadly, it has not been seen in TM so far. That assumes that what you are referring to is the real deal while what I am referring to is not. Well these were lineal realizers from the Patanjali tradition. I guess you'd have to decide what you'd consider a fourth state. They considered it samadhi. I'm simply stating that EEG signatures well known to be associated with waking, sleeping and dreaming would not traditionally, experientially, be considered the fourth. What is fun about *my* real deal pure consciousness state is that it is found in self-actualizing non-meditators. Is yours? Generally NOT. And in the Vedantic trip that's why it was called the fourth (turIya). It's something beyond the ordinary states, other than briefly in various peak experiences.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
On Jul 15, 2011, at 4:54 PM, sparaig wrote: Certainly that is the case, that the TM researchers thought (and still do) that these episodes are significant. I'm curious as to why you think they are not? Because there's been nothing demonstrated as outside the normal realm of waking-dreaming-sleeping for one. But the primary source is yogic literature itself, which defines the different types of breath suspensions in considerable detail. The Hindu science of breath is quite detailed.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
Hi Bill, Your user name reminds me of the word amerindian. I am curious if you saw my comment earlier pertaining to coddling your bliss and what your thoughts are about that please? --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote: L., no wonder I never saw it. I did not read any posts in this thread. Normally I don't read other threads here unless they pertain directly to meditation. snip
[FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
I like reading your stuff Ravi - Bhakti Yoga. In SE Asia I grew up on it. It was always in the air. Literally. What I remember was the air always smelled like life, kind of fruity, with rot and diesel and tobacco and dust mixed in. It HAD a smell. Life seems closer, less abstract there. Fruit bats filling the evening sky between the corrugated roofs, near the Presidential Palace in Bogor, Indonesia, on Java. The beating sun searing above the horizon at seven, then during the monsoon season, watching walls of rain sweeping down the street. In the tropics, Nature envelops you. Seed of Bhakti Yoga. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@... wrote: Bill - Thank you. If I understand you correctly, it seems as if you had too much energy. And later you crashed. I would characterize it as a rise and coast. It's only an apparent crash, not crash landing or crashing down to earth. Using the analogy of an airplane the crash from rise to coast is only apparent or temporary, we have already gained elevation. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@ wrote: Thank you so much Ravi!! You have a very interesting story. And I can now see your inability to sleep for those periods is something quite different than what might happen in TM. If I understand you correctly, it seems as if you had too much energy. And later you crashed. It has some associative points of contact with manic-depressive states. I am just knowledgeable enough to know that kundalini-style yoga seems to emphasize moving energy around the various chakras. The problem in TM seems to be that the recognition within oneself of this silent innerlayer never leaves even during sleep. Your state was high energy, the TM state during sleep might be compared to a dimly lit candle-- but one nevertheless never goes out even during sleep. I am go thankful that you nshard this with me. I have a great awareness now of what happened to you and maybe it is also a cautionary tale against using this type of yoga in some cases. Cheers Bill Â
[FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: snip Well these were lineal realizers from the Patanjali tradition. I guess you'd have to decide what you'd consider a fourth state. They considered it samadhi. I'm simply stating that EEG signatures well known to be associated with waking, sleeping and dreaming would not traditionally, experientially, be considered the fourth. Let's see, that would be traditionally since about, what, 1924 or so?
[FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: snip It turned out to be insignificant, except of course to TM researchers who want to believe the apnea episodes are significant. Certainly that is the case, that the TM researchers thought (and still do) that these episodes are significant. I'm curious as to why you think they are not? Because the TM researchers think they are, of course. Silly wabbit! Note, BTW, how often Vaj uses circumlocutions like turned out to be and found to be when he makes pronouncements denigrating research on TM, vague phrases that allow him to avoid giving any specifics.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
That's about the time when Alice Bailey got going heavy. 1927 is the year when she wrote a paraphrase of Patanjali's Yoga Sutras. Now we know why Vag won't list his teachers. One of them must be D. J. Wahl Ghoul. . --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: snip Well these were lineal realizers from the Patanjali tradition. I guess you'd have to decide what you'd consider a fourth state. They considered it samadhi. I'm simply stating that EEG signatures well known to be associated with waking, sleeping and dreaming would not traditionally, experientially, be considered the fourth. Let's see, that would be traditionally since about, what, 1924 or so?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
I do remember it, but not the full gist now. You will have to forgive me. Can you 'enlighten' me about it (pun intended). Cheers Bill From: whynotnow7 whynotn...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, July 15, 2011 5:51 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?) Hi Bill, Your user name reminds me of the word amerindian. I am curious if you saw my comment earlier pertaining to coddling your bliss and what your thoughts are about that please? --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote: L., no wonder I never saw it. I did not read any posts in this thread. Normally I don't read other threads here unless they pertain directly to meditation. snip
[FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
Well, 1924 was the date of the first EEG recording. Pretty primitive. I don't imagine they got around to doing detailed EEGs to detect samadhi in lineal Patanjali realizers for at least a few years after that, so it would be a pretty short tradition. On the other hand, Mr. Ghoul may have told Ms. Bailey about EEG recordings from one of the planet's earlier advanced technological civilizations. Supposedly he was the communications director for the Ascended Masters, after all, so if anybody would have had access to that information, it would have been him. Don't think Ms. Bailey ever wrote about it, but I'm sure Vaj has his own sources. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, emptybill emptybill@... wrote: That's about the time when Alice Bailey got going heavy. 1927 is the year when she wrote a paraphrase of Patanjali's Yoga Sutras. Now we know why Vag won't list his teachers. One of them must be D. J. Wahl Ghoul. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: snip Well these were lineal realizers from the Patanjali tradition. I guess you'd have to decide what you'd consider a fourth state. They considered it samadhi. I'm simply stating that EEG signatures well known to be associated with waking, sleeping and dreaming would not traditionally, experientially, be considered the fourth. Let's see, that would be traditionally since about, what, 1924 or so?
[FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: On Jul 15, 2011, at 4:53 PM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: On Jul 14, 2011, at 9:46 PM, sparaig wrote: However, what I meant by there's alpha and then there's alpha is a reference to the specific pattern(s) that show up during TM, especially during the pure consciousness state. Alleged pure consciousness state. I don't believe anyone accepts that metaphysical speculation except TM folks - esp. since we now have a much clearer idea of what the EEG of samadhi looks like and what it's physiological results are at the cellular level. Sadly, it has not been seen in TM so far. That assumes that what you are referring to is the real deal while what I am referring to is not. Well these were lineal realizers from the Patanjali tradition. I guess you'd have to decide what you'd consider a fourth state. They considered it samadhi. I'm simply stating that EEG signatures well known to be associated with waking, sleeping and dreaming would not traditionally, experientially, be considered the fourth. What is fun about *my* real deal pure consciousness state is that it is found in self-actualizing non-meditators. Is yours? Generally NOT. And in the Vedantic trip that's why it was called the fourth (turIya). It's something beyond the ordinary states, other than briefly in various peak experiences. actually, turiya isn't beyond any of them. It is the background on which they are projected. These days, scientists call it the default mode of the brain. L.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
No problem, I would have been shocked if you had agreed. Shows you are true to your dharma. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@ wrote: Yo Lawson I wouldn't take MMY's words seriously. But I would. L.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
Reformed bully turned elder(?) cautioning the gullible professor? Doesn't look good Barry. Barry this just goes against all your strengths. What happened to your feisty old self where you would take down both the newcomers and the enlightened with the sheer force of your word play and plain old school yard bullying. Not to mention your sidekicks egging you on. You must really miss Sal and Joe? Or are you just getting old - anything you want to share old man? Or are you still licking your wounds that a mad yogi inflicted on you and your sidekicks and beat you at your own game last year? You are trying the same strategy as the one you tried when maskedzebra aka RC came on. Didn't work then, will not work now. So stick to your strengths. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@... wrote: What Bob said, Bill. Welcome, but watch your back. One thing I should suggest to you -- both on Fairfield Life and in real life -- is to not believe that someone is enlightened just because they claim to be. Going that route is likely to cost you money and heartbreak. For example, on this forum we currently have three people who you seem to have bought into as being enlightened -- Jim Flanegin (whynotnow), Ravi, and Robin (maskedzebra). My bet is that other than each other (they tend to support each others' delusions IMO), you can't find more than a handful of people on this forum who actually BELIEVE that any of them are enlightened. It's not that we think they're lying (except for Ravi, who has admitted several times that he was lying to Rick in the interview he did with him for BATGAP); we think they are a tad delusional. Those of us who think this base it on their real-life behavior on this forum, juxtaposed to their claims of supposed higher states of consciousness. It's the walk the walk vs. the talk the talk thang. Look into it for yourself, and make your own decisions. I would suggest, for all three, using the Yahoo website's Advanced Search engine and looking up some of their earliest posts on this forum. That's where all three of them tended to freak out and display the anger and reactive behavior that convinces us disbelievers that they are delusional rather than enlightened. For the poster who now calls himself whynotnow, you should also look up his posts under several other names, for example, jim_flanegin and enlightened_dawn11 (during the period that Jim was pretending to be female). Just sayin'. I am NOT saying that there might not be truly enlightened people out there. I am NOT saying that there might be one or two of them who got there as the result of TM. But I am saying that I personally don't believe that either whynotnow, Ravi, or MZ fall into that category. And I don't think I'm alone here in believing this. I suspect, in fact, that more people on this forum consider them delusional than consider them enlightened. Just thought you should hear this, since you seemed to be buying everything they say as if it were gospel. It's not. It's opinion. So is what I say in this post. Do your own research and come to your own opinion.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, RoryGoff rorygoff@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@ wrote: What Bob said, Bill. Welcome, but watch your back. One thing I should suggest to you -- both on Fairfield Life and in real life -- is to not believe that someone is enlightened just because they claim to be. Going that route is likely to cost you money and heartbreak. For example, on this forum we currently have three people who you seem to have bought into as being enlightened -- Jim Flanegin (whynotnow), Ravi, and Robin (maskedzebra). My bet is that other than each other (they tend to support each others' delusions IMO), you can't find more than a handful of people on this forum who actually BELIEVE that any of them are enlightened. It's not that we think they're lying (except for Ravi, who has admitted several times that he was lying to Rick in the interview he did with him for BATGAP); we think they are a tad delusional. Those of us who think this base it on their real-life behavior on this forum, juxtaposed to their claims of supposed higher states of consciousness. It's the walk the walk vs. the talk the talk thang. Look into it for yourself, and make your own decisions. I would suggest, for all three, using the Yahoo website's Advanced Search engine and looking up some of their earliest posts on this forum. That's where all three of them tended to freak out and display the anger and reactive behavior that convinces us disbelievers that they are delusional rather than enlightened. For the poster who now calls himself whynotnow, you should also look up his posts under several other names, for example, jim_flanegin and enlightened_dawn11 (during the period that Jim was pretending to be female). Just sayin'. * * Leaving aside your other assertions, Turq -- they are subjective and everyone can and will make up their own minds on those -- Thanks for saying this...that is my opinion as well. I am just making the case for not believing that what ANYONE says about their supposed state of conscious- ness is true until you have weighed it terms of the Buddha's words on the FFL Home Page: Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense. In particular, I am cautioning against believing what people with a seemingly *huge* investment in being perceived by others as enlightened say about being enlightened. Ravi, for instance, probably never got any attention in his entire life until Rick heard about him and chose to interview him for the BATGAP series. Ravi has said since that his interview was a put-on, taking advantage of Rick's naivete. Yet here he still is, drinking in the attention on a TM forum, when he never learned TM. Go figure, eh? Jim has now posted under several different IDs, doing IMO the same thing -- trolling for attention. In a few of those ID-incarnations, he claimed to *not* be Jim, until he made a stupid mistake like posting a song from the not-Jim ID that was clearly copyrighted to Jim Flanegin. Again, go figure. ...I can tell you with full certainty that Jim never pretended to be enlightened_dawn. I personally know the woman who posted as enlightened_dawn, and she is in fact quite female :-) Whatever. Despite what you say, I still have my suspicions that enlightened_dawn11 was Jim, putting on yet another of his false personas. As I said at the time, however, I may be wrong about this. Here is the post in which I made my arguments for them being the same person. I stand by those arguments. If you have proof that they are incorrect, I will retract them. But your word -- on this subject or about your own enlightenment -- doth not constitute proof. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/message/211686 You may have noticed, Rory, that I didn't explicitly name you in my earlier post as one of the pretend enlightened. That does not mean that I actually believe that you are (I don't), only that in your latest posts to this forum you are keeping your ego-dick in your pants and not acting like the opposite of what we have been told an enlightened being would be like. Good on you for doing this.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote: Thx so much XA. What you describe is the one thing I fear the most. I have had insomnia for my entire adult life and when I went to a sleep lab way back in 1982 (at U.C.Irvine in California) I was told I had alpha intrusion.' Obviously I was having trouble getting out of the restful state of alpha and into the drowsy theta state and then into the sleeping delta. So, when the article in Sleep showed that these TM meditators where producing alpha waves, while concomitantly showing delta waves, that turned me off. I quit doing TM long ago because of it. That was 11 years ago. But around 5 months ago now I started TM again and it was not too long, perhaps 10 weeks later, I could tell that CC was starting to develop. That silent inner layer, which was there all the time when I was not too mentally active (so, watching TV I could 'feel' it), was growing and I worry about the effects on sleep. Â Your story is, for me, a real cautionary tale to be sure. I am deeply grateful to you for sharing it with me. Â Â I guess the only good thing to take way for all of this was that the CC experience did go away in time. If I may ask one question XA: How much were you meditating? Were you going far beyond the typical twice-per-day, Â 20 minute program? Were you using advanced techniques? Were you going to all those residence courses to undergo 'rounding'? Clint Eastwood has been meditating for 40 years and I assume he is doing TM 'lite,' as I am. Â He seems none the worse for wear, so to speak. Cheers Bill From: Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@... To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 1:45 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?) Â With regards to William Parkinson, Ravi Yogi, and Lawson --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@ wrote: Thank you so much for sharing with me what happened to you Ravi. I did not know that you are using something other than TM. The only reason why I practice TM is because having tried other meditations, TM, for better or worse, seems to allow me to transcend in the quickest manner I have ever experienced. It happened in the first day or two, and that was something I can't say for any other form of meditation I tried, including classical concentration (which I started when I was perhaps 12 years old following the guidelines in a book by Richard Hittleman on Yoga), or vipanassana, or meditating on my breath while using a simple form of pranayama. For me TM is simply an expedient tool-- I have no desire to reach GC or UG and right now I'm just trying to figure out if I should even allowed to go so far as CC 24/7. Frankly this entire notion of having so-called Cosmic Consciousness, this awareness of a silent inner level, during sleep is something that concerns me. I wonder if it will make sleep far more difficult. And I also worry about what I just read concerning what seems to be long-lasting, if not permanent changes to either neurophysiology or even neuroanatomy. Btw, what form of meditation were you practicing? And also, I love the comment by your Guru. That was a very perceptive comment!! Cheers Bill From: Ravi Yogi raviyogi@ To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 10:55 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?) Dear Bill, Not being familiar with TM, I can just share my experiences. In my experience not being aware during deep sleep state doesn't seem to hinder bliss and perfect awareness during the wakeful state. Most of the times I sleep like a log, if I'm too high I might feel like I'm aware of my sleep state but this happens rarely. However during a period of 3 months in 09 10, during this period that I refer to as the descension of divine I hardly slept and had full awareness even while asleep. But I believe this to be a side effect of the body trying to cope with energy than any natural state. My body treated this energy as an invasion and felt the need to be awake 24 hours a day to deal with this. So based on my experience it was just an interim state, after having integrated the energy and rising up higher in consciousness, so to speak I just sleep. TM is a path like many others, like my Guru would say once you reach the shore you leave the boat behind, you wouldn't carry it on your head. For me the further shore occasionally seems closer than at other times, but invariably a cleansing flood washes the boat back down stream, and the further shore seems at least as far away as ever, if not more. IOW, I haven't found an opportunity to carry the boat around on my head for any appreciable length of time, at least. To paraphrase MMY:
[FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
I don't think anyone here is as gullible as you are Barry (even moderator Gullible Fool). We use critical thinking skills, discrimination and intuitive feelings from the heart to find our own truth. On the other hand, you are always trying to con people on here with your misrepresentations and now it looks like that has come around to bite you, thinking that everyone lies as much as you do, and is sucked in by your stupid egocentric boasts. Free clue: You ain't no genius, darlin'. How's that long Summer vacation goin'? Perhaps you can distract yourself with another movie or two, sitting safely hidden in the darkness, trying to avoid the awful place you currently inhabit. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@... wrote: What Bob said, Bill. Welcome, but watch your back. One thing I should suggest to you -- both on Fairfield Life and in real life -- is to not believe that someone is enlightened just because they claim to be. snip
[FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
Oh Poor old Barry tormented by jealousy, why don't you go back to your strengths - your carefree, fun, creative play of words to manipulate your audience. This groveling and cajoling Rory and newcomers does little justice to your recalcitrant online persona. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@... Yet here he still is, drinking in the attention on a TM forum, when he never learned TM. Go figure, eh?
[FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
I think Barry also has self-loathing going on, low vibe as he refers to his posts as. So he can't fathom how anyone can claim higher state of consciousness and indulge in his game without the self-loathing, low vibe deception. A classic case of projection. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, whynotnow7 whynotnow7@... wrote: I don't think anyone here is as gullible as you are Barry (even moderator Gullible Fool). We use critical thinking skills, discrimination and intuitive feelings from the heart to find our own truth. On the other hand, you are always trying to con people on here with your misrepresentations and now it looks like that has come around to bite you, thinking that everyone lies as much as you do, and is sucked in by your stupid egocentric boasts. Free clue: You ain't no genius, darlin'. How's that long Summer vacation goin'? Perhaps you can distract yourself with another movie or two, sitting safely hidden in the darkness, trying to avoid the awful place you currently inhabit. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@ wrote: What Bob said, Bill. Welcome, but watch your back. One thing I should suggest to you -- both on Fairfield Life and in real life -- is to not believe that someone is enlightened just because they claim to be. snip
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
On Jul 14, 2011, at 12:20 AM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: [...] The much-touted witnessing of advanced TMers is seen in normal humans all the time, but esp. in the elderly and people in pain. Big whoop. Derealization during pain isn't the same as witnessing during the waking state, and the finding that world champion athletes compared to non-world champion athletes show more of the same kind of EEG signature as long-term TMers do compared to short-term TM meditators, certainly suggests that there's something more going on... I was referring to witnessing during sleep. The signature TMers tout, is actually rather common. Listening to William, I have to wonder if it's actually a variety of alpha intrusion?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
On Jul 13, 2011, at 9:20 PM, William Parkinson wrote: Thank you so much for the information Bhairitu . I tried to trace back my own mantra within the Advaita-shakti tradition and found that it was recorded in Shankara's 'Saundaryalahari.' Perhaps I am just slow witted, but I don't believe in Ishta-devatas or any of these deities. For me it is sort of like if an Italian person came to me and gave me an ancient religious tradition that was based on a belief in Hermes or Zeus or Neptune. These are just personifications of natural forces and experiences. Still, TM does work! I have my own secular explanation as to what I think makes it work, but of course maybe Kali, Lakshmi and the other goddesses of the Divine mother tradition are real! Nevertheless, I find it fascinating to trace the roots of this religious tradition. I hope you will add any further information you can on the tradition. There is so much I really do not understand about it or even about the growth of the tradition after Shankara. Perhaps others can shed further light upon the tradition that underlies TM. At this point, having heard too many testimonials concerning disrupted sleep patterns (even when they are seen as being helpful) I think I'm going to cut back my TM to 10 minutes each session and add 10 minutes of pranayama prior to doing the TM. Maybe in that fashion I can still get some of the benefits from the practice, but not develop full-blown CC, which would surface during my sleeping hours. Anyway thank you so much!! Bill you do realize that saundaryalahari is attributed to Shankara, but is very likely not by him? It's more in the style of an agama or a tantra rather than any of the classical works of Adi Shankara. The key point is, the TM bijas are part and parcel of the tantric mantra tradition. The TM mantras appear repeatedly in numerous different tantras. Tantric mantra dictionaries contain all of the TM mantras (and many, many more), along with their detailed meanings.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
I guess you have to ask yourself Barry, was your purpose to actually warn Bill, or to slam the other three. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@... wrote: What Bob said, Bill. Welcome, but watch your back. One thing I should suggest to you -- both on Fairfield Life and in real life -- is to not believe that someone is enlightened just because they claim to be. Going that route is likely to cost you money and heartbreak. For example, on this forum we currently have three people who you seem to have bought into as being enlightened -- Jim Flanegin (whynotnow), Ravi, and Robin (maskedzebra). My bet is that other than each other (they tend to support each others' delusions IMO), you can't find more than a handful of people on this forum who actually BELIEVE that any of them are enlightened. It's not that we think they're lying (except for Ravi, who has admitted several times that he was lying to Rick in the interview he did with him for BATGAP); we think they are a tad delusional. Those of us who think this base it on their real-life behavior on this forum, juxtaposed to their claims of supposed higher states of consciousness. It's the walk the walk vs. the talk the talk thang. Look into it for yourself, and make your own decisions. I would suggest, for all three, using the Yahoo website's Advanced Search engine and looking up some of their earliest posts on this forum. That's where all three of them tended to freak out and display the anger and reactive behavior that convinces us disbelievers that they are delusional rather than enlightened. For the poster who now calls himself whynotnow, you should also look up his posts under several other names, for example, jim_flanegin and enlightened_dawn11 (during the period that Jim was pretending to be female). Just sayin'. I am NOT saying that there might not be truly enlightened people out there. I am NOT saying that there might be one or two of them who got there as the result of TM. But I am saying that I personally don't believe that either whynotnow, Ravi, or MZ fall into that category. And I don't think I'm alone here in believing this. I suspect, in fact, that more people on this forum consider them delusional than consider them enlightened. Just thought you should hear this, since you seemed to be buying everything they say as if it were gospel. It's not. It's opinion. So is what I say in this post. Do your own research and come to your own opinion.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@... wrote: Whatever. Despite what you say, I still have my suspicions that enlightened_dawn11 was Jim, putting on yet another of his false personas. As I said at the time, however, I may be wrong about this. Here is the post in which I made my arguments for them being the same person. I stand by those arguments. If you have proof that they are incorrect, I will retract them. But your word -- on this subject or about your own enlightenment -- doth not constitute proof. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/message/211686 * * Yes, who knows? You may be right; I recall now I was offline (though not drunk :-) ) at the time, and my memory told me that enlightened_dawn was the blonde bombshell tantric priestess who posted here (whom I do know well) -- but on reviewing some of the posts I think now that may well be incorrect; offhand I don't even see where enlightened_dawn even claimed to be a woman... :-) You may have noticed, Rory, that I didn't explicitly name you in my earlier post as one of the pretend enlightened. That does not mean that I actually believe that you are (I don't), only that in your latest posts to this forum you are keeping your ego-dick in your pants and not acting like the opposite of what we have been told an enlightened being would be like. Good on you for doing this. * * Thanks, Turq. Yes; if you had said I was either enlightened, or ignorant, or pretend-enlightened, or deluded, or anything else, I would have to both agree and disagree -- agree in that I of necessity contain seeds of everything, every quality, and disagree in that none of those seeds is the whole truth, which simply IS, with no specific qualities, and/or all of them. Really, it appears to me as if we're all simply pure screens or mirrors that everyone is projecting their various movies onto. What people see in me or in anyone else usually tells me far more about the seers themselves than about the person they believe they are seeing :-)
[FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: On Jul 14, 2011, at 12:20 AM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: [...] The much-touted witnessing of advanced TMers is seen in normal humans all the time, but esp. in the elderly and people in pain. Big whoop. Derealization during pain isn't the same as witnessing during the waking state, and the finding that world champion athletes compared to non-world champion athletes show more of the same kind of EEG signature as long-term TMers do compared to short-term TM meditators, certainly suggests that there's something more going on... I was referring to witnessing during sleep. The signature TMers tout, is actually rather common. One would expect it to be common, at least to some extent. MMY's claim is that Cosmic Consciousness is what a stress-free human SHOULD be experiencing: it is the default state of a healthy adult human nervous system. Listening to William, I have to wonder if it's actually a variety of alpha intrusion? Or if it's the other way round? Alpha intrusion might be a glimpse of normal healthy sleep that is seen as unhealthy because it isn't what most people experience all the time? L.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
William Parkinson: I tried to trace back my own mantra within the Advaita-shakti tradition and found that it was recorded in Shankara's 'Saundaryalahari.' According to the Shankaracharya of Sringeri, the Adi Shankara placed the Sri Chakra, symbol of Tripurasundari, with the TM mantras inscribed thereon, at each of the seats of learning - Dwarka, Puri, Sringeri, and at Jyotirmath. The mantras of TM are DIRECTLY related to Sri Vidya. It is also a fact that the cult of Sri Vidya was derived from the nath siddhas, tantric alchemists of medieval India, 99% of whom were Vajrayana Buddhists in the line of Nagarjuna! Read more: Sri Vidya: http://www.rwilliams.us/archives/srividya.htm
[FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: The TM mantras appear repeatedly in numerous different tantras. Tantric mantra dictionaries contain all of the TM mantras (and many, many more), along with their detailed meanings. Gotta admit that might be true, actually! Think 'twas prolly Mahaa-nirvaaNa-tantra or somesuch that has my mantra, or rather, the one-syllabic (is that a word?) version of it.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
I want to thank everyone for being so gracious with their time and helping me come to a greater understanding about the issue of sleep and its relationship to TM. Regrettably, it has engendered some posts in directions that I never intended. For that I'm truly sorry. Nevertheless, I have received enough very helpful feedback to come to what I think is a proper understanding. It seems to me that prolonged use of TM will, in fact, change in some way my sleep patterns. Some here seem to feel that is not necessarily a bad thing, but others have clearly suffered from it. Given that I already have insomnia I think I'm going to steer clear of allowing myself to go into that level of cosmic consciousness. Accordingly, I'm going to restrict my TM practice to just 10 minutes, twice a day, preceded by 10 minutes of simple pranayama. Hopefully, I will still get some of the benefits that I feel from TM, but also not develop full-blown cosmic consciousness into my sleeping hours. Unlike Ravi, Jim, and perhaps Robin, I really find the whole notion of not sleeping very troubling. In any event I want to make this my last post on the subject, given that it has developed into some side issues that I never meant to dig up. At least we can put an end to this chapter on FLL and other discussions can ensue. I will respond to each person who has written lately in this one post. I hope I have the names right with each e-mail I saw posted. If I have made an error please forgive me. Thx so much Barry. I took your admonishment seriously and I felt, and do still feel, it was heartfelt. And yes you are right. I have taken them at their word, even though I know this is such a subjective thing. Nevertheless, even if they only got close to so-called 'Enlightenment' it is very interesting to talk to them and see what state of mind they were in and what effect it had on their personal lives. I regret that Robin left when he did. It would be so interesting if Travis and other researchers would try to document what people in UC look like encephalographically, as well as on PET scans. Thx Vaj for pointing that out. Yes I was aware that Saundaryalahari is alleged to be from Shankara, but I found out only very recently. It was here on FLL, not more then maybe a month ago, that someone mentioned this work and that there were mantras in it. That was my first exposure to it. So I looked up the work and saw my mantra there and the Ishta-devata that was associated with it. I had never been interested in the religious tradition which undergirds TM until now. I have been collecting files for roughly 15 years on the effects of meditation. Until this last month I had not really been interested in anything but the scientific aspects of meditation. So I thank that you have been willing to point these things out to me. I still have so much to learn when it comes to the background of these things. I do wish to mention one other thing. I don't think that what I had in the past, and still do to a certain point today, that is alpha intrusion, is the same as cosmic consciousness. The difference is one of thinking versus a deep inner silence that I am aware of now. Alpha intrusion is genuine insomnia (and it is still there, although not as bad as it used to be) where your mind turns over and over and it's hard to shut off your mind. As I understand it, and I admit I have never experienced it in sleep, it is the same phenomenon that I experience now in my wakeful state in quiet moments; viz., there is a second layer of complete silence that is very perceptible. I guess the best way to explain it is to use MMY's fondness for using the ocean as a way to comprehend meditation. Like everyone else I have the active, busy, mental aspect. That is the only thing I've ever been able to truly perceive outside of meditation. With others forms of meditation what I felt was a calming of this active, thinking layer. What I mean is that in my normal awakened state that is all I can normally perceive; toned down or otherwise. But after four months of TM there is a quite discernible second-level that has developed. It is more than just a quieting of my active mind; it is a perceptible second layer that is there now that does not leave and it is growing. But this level is completely silent. So, following MMY's analogy, the only thing I use to sense was the waves on top of the ocean, but now I also feel the depth of the ocean; a still, silent, depth that is the second layer in my personality. Actually I rather like it. It is definitely a calming influence. Be that as it may, you're still producing alpha waves and alpha activity; that is to say, you're still consciously aware, continually, of this silent layer. Granted that layer is not running thoughts over and over again in my mind; nevertheless that part of the mind is not going to shut off during sleep. And that is what I was really worried about.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, cardemaister no_reply@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: The TM mantras appear repeatedly in numerous different tantras. Tantric mantra dictionaries contain all of the TM mantras (and many, many more), along with their detailed meanings. Gotta admit that might be true, actually! Think 'twas prolly Mahaa-nirvaaNa-tantra or somesuch that has my mantra, or rather, the one-syllabic (is that a word?) version of it. http://www.sacred-texts.com/tantra/maha/maha07.htm
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
Richard I love what you just wrote. This is all new to me. I am now rushing to Goggle!! I will say something soon. Thx!! Cheers Bill From: richardjwilliamstexas willy...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 11:51 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?) William Parkinson: I tried to trace back my own mantra within the Advaita-shakti tradition and found that it was recorded in Shankara's 'Saundaryalahari.' According to the Shankaracharya of Sringeri, the Adi Shankara placed the Sri Chakra, symbol of Tripurasundari, with the TM mantras inscribed thereon, at each of the seats of learning - Dwarka, Puri, Sringeri, and at Jyotirmath. The mantras of TM are DIRECTLY related to Sri Vidya. It is also a fact that the cult of Sri Vidya was derived from the nath siddhas, tantric alchemists of medieval India, 99% of whom were Vajrayana Buddhists in the line of Nagarjuna! Read more: Sri Vidya: http://www.rwilliams.us/archives/srividya.htm
[FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
Derealization during pain isn't the same as witnessing during the waking state... Vaj: I was referring to witnessing during sleep. In TM, 'witnessing' in waking state refers to the ability of yogis to 'witness' the Being - the Transcendental Absolute. yoga citta vritti nirodha. Yoga Sutra I.1.2 Yoga is the cessation of the mental turnings of the mind. When thought ceases, the Transcendental Absolute stands by itself, refers to Itself, as a witness to the world. - Swami Venkatesananda http://www.swamivenkatesananda.com/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
William Parkinson: This is all new to me... The Sri Vidya, because it consists of 'indestructible seed' syllables (bijas) rather than words, transcends such mundane considerations as semantic meaning. Accordingly, a bija-only mantra is not merely esoteric but inherently superior. Because it is purely seed-syllables [bijasaras] is the purest form of mantra. It does not make a request or praise god, it is God's purest expression. Gayatri is great but it cannot match srividya because it is still in language; it is Veda and mantra but when transformed into the srividya its greatness increases (95). Work cited: Auspicious Wisdon The texts and traditions of Srividya Sakta Tantrism in South India. by Douglas Renfrew Brooks SUNY 1992
[FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote: [...] Thank you also Turq (Lawson) for your warm welcome too. There is much I still have to learn about TM, but also about the members here. Still it has been heuristically useful for me to say the least!  Um I note that you not only confused me with someone else but you never bothered to respond to my links to research on stuff... Gotta wonder. L.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
On 07/13/2011 09:14 PM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitunoozguru@... wrote: On 07/13/2011 12:17 PM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitunoozguru@ wrote: [...] You probably know that most brain wave research would say that deep sleep would be the delta state which is possible to produce through meditation too. Back in the 1970s I was part of a university study on meditation and had an EEG test. The researcher was looking for alpha waves but I produced theta. We now know that theta states (as well as delta) are signs of deeper states of mediation. I don't know why the movement keeps pushing alpha states. The most consistent EEG changes during TM they have found are in the Alpha band in certain parts of the brain, especially during episodes of pure consciousness. There's no justifiable reason to push anything else. L. Sure, because TM is only yoga lite. :-D Just simple breathing exercises can produce alpha states. WEll, yes. Simply closing the eyes can produce alpha states. There's alpha states and then there's alpha states. L. Really? How so? You mean there is wiggle room? :-D Why not just be honest and say that TM like other methods can produce alpha states? Hang the marketing on other factors such as price. Obviously if you're paying such a high price you MUST be getting a superior technique. :-D
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
On Jul 14, 2011, at 4:06 PM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote: [...] Thank you also Turq (Lawson) for your warm welcome too. There is much I still have to learn about TM, but also about the members here. Still it has been heuristically useful for me to say the least!  Um I note that you not only confused me with someone else but you never bothered to respond to my links to research on stuff... Gotta wonder. I believe he is deeply familiar with meditation research in general.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
I am so sorry L. As I mentioned at the beginning, I might get people confused. I think I still have what you wrote to me and I will look at those links today, when I get back home. Thanks again!! Cheers Bill From: sparaig lengli...@cox.net To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 1:06 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote: [...] Thank you also Turq (Lawson) for your warm welcome too. There is much I still have to learn about TM, but also about the members here. Still it has been heuristically useful for me to say the least!  Um I note that you not only confused me with someone else but you never bothered to respond to my links to research on stuff... Gotta wonder. L.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
L., forgive me, but I went though my old posts, which had several from you and none had any links for further research. Did I miss one of them? Cheers Bill From: sparaig lengli...@cox.net To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 1:06 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote: [...] Thank you also Turq (Lawson) for your warm welcome too. There is much I still have to learn about TM, but also about the members here. Still it has been heuristically useful for me to say the least!  Um I note that you not only confused me with someone else but you never bothered to respond to my links to research on stuff... Gotta wonder. L.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
It totally was Jim. It was obvious. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, RoryGoff rorygoff@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@ wrote: What Bob said, Bill. Welcome, but watch your back. One thing I should suggest to you -- both on Fairfield Life and in real life -- is to not believe that someone is enlightened just because they claim to be. Going that route is likely to cost you money and heartbreak. For example, on this forum we currently have three people who you seem to have bought into as being enlightened -- Jim Flanegin (whynotnow), Ravi, and Robin (maskedzebra). My bet is that other than each other (they tend to support each others' delusions IMO), you can't find more than a handful of people on this forum who actually BELIEVE that any of them are enlightened. It's not that we think they're lying (except for Ravi, who has admitted several times that he was lying to Rick in the interview he did with him for BATGAP); we think they are a tad delusional. Those of us who think this base it on their real-life behavior on this forum, juxtaposed to their claims of supposed higher states of consciousness. It's the walk the walk vs. the talk the talk thang. Look into it for yourself, and make your own decisions. I would suggest, for all three, using the Yahoo website's Advanced Search engine and looking up some of their earliest posts on this forum. That's where all three of them tended to freak out and display the anger and reactive behavior that convinces us disbelievers that they are delusional rather than enlightened. For the poster who now calls himself whynotnow, you should also look up his posts under several other names, for example, jim_flanegin and enlightened_dawn11 (during the period that Jim was pretending to be female). Just sayin'. * * Leaving aside your other assertions, Turq -- they are subjective and everyone can and will make up their own minds on those -- Thanks for saying this...that is my opinion as well. I am just making the case for not believing that what ANYONE says about their supposed state of conscious- ness is true until you have weighed it terms of the Buddha's words on the FFL Home Page: Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense. In particular, I am cautioning against believing what people with a seemingly *huge* investment in being perceived by others as enlightened say about being enlightened. Ravi, for instance, probably never got any attention in his entire life until Rick heard about him and chose to interview him for the BATGAP series. Ravi has said since that his interview was a put-on, taking advantage of Rick's naivete. Yet here he still is, drinking in the attention on a TM forum, when he never learned TM. Go figure, eh? Jim has now posted under several different IDs, doing IMO the same thing -- trolling for attention. In a few of those ID-incarnations, he claimed to *not* be Jim, until he made a stupid mistake like posting a song from the not-Jim ID that was clearly copyrighted to Jim Flanegin. Again, go figure. ...I can tell you with full certainty that Jim never pretended to be enlightened_dawn. I personally know the woman who posted as enlightened_dawn, and she is in fact quite female :-) Whatever. Despite what you say, I still have my suspicions that enlightened_dawn11 was Jim, putting on yet another of his false personas. As I said at the time, however, I may be wrong about this. Here is the post in which I made my arguments for them being the same person. I stand by those arguments. If you have proof that they are incorrect, I will retract them. But your word -- on this subject or about your own enlightenment -- doth not constitute proof. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/message/211686 You may have noticed, Rory, that I didn't explicitly name you in my earlier post as one of the pretend enlightened. That does not mean that I actually believe that you are (I don't), only that in your latest posts to this forum you are keeping your ego-dick in your pants and not acting like the opposite of what we have been told an enlightened being would be like. Good on you for doing this.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozguru@... wrote: On 07/13/2011 09:14 PM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitunoozguru@ wrote: On 07/13/2011 12:17 PM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitunoozguru@ wrote: [...] You probably know that most brain wave research would say that deep sleep would be the delta state which is possible to produce through meditation too. Back in the 1970s I was part of a university study on meditation and had an EEG test. The researcher was looking for alpha waves but I produced theta. We now know that theta states (as well as delta) are signs of deeper states of mediation. I don't know why the movement keeps pushing alpha states. The most consistent EEG changes during TM they have found are in the Alpha band in certain parts of the brain, especially during episodes of pure consciousness. There's no justifiable reason to push anything else. L. Sure, because TM is only yoga lite. :-D Just simple breathing exercises can produce alpha states. WEll, yes. Simply closing the eyes can produce alpha states. There's alpha states and then there's alpha states. L. Really? How so? You mean there is wiggle room? :-D Why not just be honest and say that TM like other methods can produce alpha states? Hang the marketing on other factors such as price. Obviously if you're paying such a high price you MUST be getting a superior technique. :-D There's always that point: we tend to hold on to something we value and if TM costs so much, it must be valuable. Of course, that doesn't explain why *I* still practice since even back then, $45 wasn't an overwhelming expense for me. Steep, but not outrageous. However, what I meant by there's alpha and then there's alpha is a reference to the specific pattern(s) that show up during TM, especially during the pure consciousness state. Those aren't so common in most people, including people that practice other forms of meditation (shamatha may or may not be an other form depending on who you learn it from). L.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: On Jul 14, 2011, at 4:06 PM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@ wrote: [...] Thank you also Turq (Lawson) for your warm welcome too. There is much I still have to learn about TM, but also about the members here.� Still it has been heuristically useful for me to say the least!� � Um I note that you not only confused me with someone else but you never bothered to respond to my links to research on stuff... Gotta wonder. I believe he is deeply familiar with meditation research in general. Those aren't meditation research in general studies. Those are studies on a specific state found within TM and apparently not elsewhere. At least, I can't find any reference to breath suspension [or synonyms] and meditation except the TM research.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote: L., forgive me, but I went though my old posts, which had several from you and none had any links for further research. Did I miss one of them? Cheers Bill Re: The Soul is extracted and judged by weight An email I fired off recently might be of interest to you: Dear Professor Brown, I just finished reading your article, Doubt as Methodology and Object in the Phenomenology of Religion, found in M/C Journal http://www.journal.media-culture.org.au/index.php/mcjournal/article/viewArticle/\ 334 ... I'd like to present the TM theoretical take of the Vedic philosophy and ask that you reconsider calling TM a religion, per se: Rather than theories or beliefs about God, the Universe and Everything that are strictly the product of the specific culture that they are found in, TM theory asserts that these are cultural interpretations of states of consciousness that are natural to humans, regardless of culture. TM theory further asserts that TM is a technique (in the same sense that the Way that cannot be spoken is a technique) that increases the probability that practitioners will enter into the state of consciousness called turya -pure consciousness- in the Upanishads. The theory further asserts that long-term practice of TM, alternated with normal activity, leads to the situation called turyatita (quality of turya) where turya is omni-present, in some sense, in the individual. This theory is nothing new. You can find it, with minor variations, in various places. E.G. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turiya What IS unique to TM theory, however, are the assertions that: 1) turya is a physiological state of the brain in the Western scientific sense, that can be measured using the tools of Western science; 2) that turyatita is likewise a measurable state; 3) that turya is the state of least stress in a resting nervous system; 4) the process of TM is merely a resting state of the nervous system that repairs stress (note that obvious episodes of turya are NOT required for this resting state to be effective --one can become fully enlightened according to TM theory, without ever having a clear experience of turya during meditation, at least prior to full enlightenment); 4) turyatita is merely a state in mature adults whose nervous systems are sufficiently strong and mature due to lack of physiological stress that turya is evident, even during waking, dreaming and sleeping. this leads to the logical conclusion that turyatita is NOT some esoteric state, and that the physiological signature of turya during meditation should more likely appear, not only in long-term practitioners of TM contrasted with non-meditating or short-term meditating controls, but also in non-meditators whose success in life suggests that their nervous systems are very efficient, e.g.: world champion athletes (as compared to non-champion professionals in the same sport), professional classical musicians (as compared to amateur classical musicians) and high-functioning business managers as compared to their less successful counterparts. Research on the physiological correlates of turya found during TM practice: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7045911 Breath suspension during the transcendental meditation technique. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10512549 Pure consciousness: distinct phenomenological and physiological correlates of consciousness itself. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9009807 Autonomic patterns during respiratory suspensions: possible markers of Transcendental Consciousness. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10487785 Autonomic and EEG patterns during eyes-closed rest and transcendental meditation (TM) practice: the basis for a neural model of TM practice. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19862565 A self-referential default brain state: patterns of coherence, power, and eLORETA sources during eyes-closed rest and Transcendental Meditation practice. Research on the physiological correlates of turyatita in long-term TM meditators: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12406612 Patterns of EEG coherence, power, and contingent negative variation characterize the integration of transcendental and waking states. http://www.tm.org/american-psychological-association Abstract for the 2007 Conference of the American Psychological Association Brain Integration Scale: Corroborating Language-based â¨Instruments of Post-conventional Development Research on the physiological correlates of turyatita in non-meditators: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10./j.1600-0838.2009.01007.x/full Higher psycho-physiological refinement in world-class Norwegian athletes: brain measures of performance capacity While all these findings are preliminary, you might consider what they imply for interpreting TM as a religion. In my view, it is not. It is merely a technique that allegedly leads to a more healthy functioning of the nervous system. TM
[FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote: Unlike Ravi, Jim, and perhaps Robin, I really find the whole notion of not sleeping very troubling. Bill, I have to clarify that I mostly sleep like a log now, I did mention that I didn't sleep much for a few months during my Kundalini descension and explained that I believe now that it was an unnatural state since my body had decided it was under threat and probably never triggered the right chemicals that would let me fall asleep. In any event I want to make this my last post on the subject, given that it has developed into some side issues that I never meant to dig up. No worries - welcome to FFL, threads veer off in all different directions and several are hijacked for personal battles. Pretty soon you will be familiar with the opposing players and if need be either indulge or learn techniques to steer clear. Thx so much Barry. I took your admonishment seriously and I felt, and do still feel, it was heartfelt. And yes you are right. I have taken them at their word, even though I know this is such a subjective thing. Nevertheless, even if they only got close to so-called 'Enlightenment' it is very interesting to talk to them and see what state of mind they were in and what effect it had on their personal lives. I have to clarify that I have never used the E word, I only share my experiences in the hope it might help or inspire someone. In fact I frequently sometimes I think there's something wrong with me, my personal situation is messed up, there's lot of strife,struggle in the world, the problems require someone mature and responsible but yet here I am I feel blissed out for no reason and act in a silly playful manner like a child. Ravi, I would still be very interested in hearing what you have to say concerning how, and in what way, these types of intense periods of illumination has helped you. I would have to first briefly describe these intense periods of illumination. Over a period of 7 years I went through a several stages which I would refer to as Kundalini ascension, each experience lasted a week or 2 where as the energy ascended to my head I noticed heightened sensitivity, intense emotions and toward the end, intense derealization depersonalization ending in a powerful surge of energy that would leave me in an absolute dread and then boom it would be gone and I would sleep exhausted. The end phase almost happened in the night time with heightened senses as if on guard against an attack. I would return to normal consciousness the next day. I have to add a quick disclaimer here that I have never tried any psychedelic drugs or never been on any prescription medication ever. However the period above was followed by intense personal problems with my marriage, wanting to feel love and be loved, being in a emotionally abusive relationship. I had a final intense one in 2009, however unlike the previous ones when I got up the next morning I was in intense bliss, as if intense blissful energy had entered in to me. This episode lasted 3 weeks and was one of the 2 episodes of Kundalini descension, the other one in April-May last year which everyone here is aware of because of my erratic behavior. The first in 2009 for 3 weeks and second for 6 weeks. Unlike the previous experiences which were very uncomfortable, this was pure bliss which increased in intensity, I felt as if energy was descending in droves, as each day progressed and at the end I went through a stage of psychosis which helped my body, mind, ego to make the transition. The state of psychosis was only a few hours during the first whereas in the second it was much intense and over a period of 5 days. After I hit the peak, the psychosis enabled me to survive, and it took me up to 2 weeks to recuperate, I am awed and amazed at this experience and I can't believe I made it out alive. After the first Kundalini ascension experience passed I found in a better, newer way of functioning, however total integration and understanding on my part wasn't complete until last year and may be still continues. Unlike many here with TM who seem to have a lot of details on higher states of consciousness I had none, all I had was my Guru's grace, blessings and my stubborn insistence on following my own path. Post my experiences I note a blissful center within myself, I continue with the same habits, likes and dislikes however the lack or presence of anything doesn't bother me in the least. My thoughts are not chaotic, I'm very relaxed, very unhurried, there's no rush to be anywhere or do anything, no anxiety, no fears, lack of personal boundaries, easily can relate to anyone in a loving, friendly way, the others and the world feels like an extension of myself and I cannot create any suffering anymore. Since the mind is very still, doesn't make any stories I feel happy and blissful for no reason, on the other hand sometimes I feel deep incredible sadness as well. My
[FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote: Hello to everyone on Fairfield life. My name is Dr. William Parkinson and I have been lurking here for over a month. I have only recently started meditating ( 5months) and I am trying to learn as much about TM as I can; both the good and the bad. Recently, MZ\RobinC and Ravi Yogi have made some brief, but tantalizing allusions, to sleep (actually the lack thereof) and various states of consciousness. Years ago I read the paper in the journal Sleep documenting that people in established CC still maintain alpha wave paterns even during delta sleep. I was wondering if anyone could shed further light on this phenomenon. I understand that this is not the same as insomnia, but I'm wondering exactly what happens and whether or not it interferes with sleep. I am also wondering whether or not so-called cosmic consciousness would recede back into the background if someone were to discontinue TM. I ask this because in the eventuality that I, or someone else, may be disconcerted by having this state of consciousness during sleep it would be quite helpful to know that the discontinuation of TM would reverse this phenomenon. I would be deeply appreciative of any information that anyone might be willing to give me. Thank you in advance! Cheers Bill * * Dear Bill, welcome to Fairfield Life! Great questions; I'll take a shot at them. In my recollection, anyhow, witnessing sleep before Awakening was somewhat transitory. Since then however, it has generally felt as if a part of me is always asleep (if I had to locate this part, it would be in the back of my brain) and a part of me is always awake (this would be more in the brow area), so there really appears to be only one state of consciousness, or more accurately, one consciousness always and ever Here and Now which predominates through all its various states, so that the brain as a whole sings, regardless of where I happen to be localized in the brain's choir. Conscious mantra-meditation ceased immediately upon Awakening, as it was self-evident that I was not, and That Alone IS, and there was no longer anywhere to go, and that was 29 years ago. I have no regrets and no desire to change, but then this is certainly not Cosmic Consciousness as classically described, or not C.C. alone; it is indescribable, more like everything and nothing, more like utter ignorance with utter contentment :-)
[FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
thx, most interesting! (forwarded to J. Jarvis). http://skeletonart.com/Detailed/696.html --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, RoryGoff rorygoff@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@ wrote: Hello to everyone on Fairfield life. My name is Dr. William Parkinson and I have been lurking here for over a month. I have only recently started meditating ( 5months) and I am trying to learn as much about TM as I can; both the good and the bad. Recently, MZ\RobinC and Ravi Yogi have made some brief, but tantalizing allusions, to sleep (actually the lack thereof) and various states of consciousness. Years ago I read the paper in the journal Sleep documenting that people in established CC still maintain alpha wave paterns even during delta sleep. I was wondering if anyone could shed further light on this phenomenon. I understand that this is not the same as insomnia, but I'm wondering exactly what happens and whether or not it interferes with sleep. I am also wondering whether or not so-called cosmic consciousness would recede back into the background if someone were to discontinue TM. I ask this because in the eventuality that I, or someone else, may be disconcerted by having this state of consciousness during sleep it would be quite helpful to know that the discontinuation of TM would reverse this phenomenon. I would be deeply appreciative of any information that anyone might be willing to give me. Thank you in advance! Cheers Bill * * Dear Bill, welcome to Fairfield Life! Great questions; I'll take a shot at them. In my recollection, anyhow, witnessing sleep before Awakening was somewhat transitory. Since then however, it has generally felt as if a part of me is always asleep (if I had to locate this part, it would be in the back of my brain) and a part of me is always awake (this would be more in the brow area), so there really appears to be only one state of consciousness, or more accurately, one consciousness always and ever Here and Now which predominates through all its various states, so that the brain as a whole sings, regardless of where I happen to be localized in the brain's choir. Conscious mantra-meditation ceased immediately upon Awakening, as it was self-evident that I was not, and That Alone IS, and there was no longer anywhere to go, and that was 29 years ago. I have no regrets and no desire to change, but then this is certainly not Cosmic Consciousness as classically described, or not C.C. alone; it is indescribable, more like everything and nothing, more like utter ignorance with utter contentment :-)
[FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
You're very welcome, Yifu, but don't take it too seriously -- it's still just another story I am superimposing on the indescribable Us, the best I can do with thoughts and words at the moment :-) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Yifu yifuxero@... wrote: thx, most interesting! (forwarded to J. Jarvis). http://skeletonart.com/Detailed/696.html --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, RoryGoff rorygoff@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@ wrote: Hello to everyone on Fairfield life. My name is Dr. William Parkinson and I have been lurking here for over a month. I have only recently started meditating ( 5months) and I am trying to learn as much about TM as I can; both the good and the bad. Recently, MZ\RobinC and Ravi Yogi have made some brief, but tantalizing allusions, to sleep (actually the lack thereof) and various states of consciousness. Years ago I read the paper in the journal Sleep documenting that people in established CC still maintain alpha wave paterns even during delta sleep. I was wondering if anyone could shed further light on this phenomenon. I understand that this is not the same as insomnia, but I'm wondering exactly what happens and whether or not it interferes with sleep. I am also wondering whether or not so-called cosmic consciousness would recede back into the background if someone were to discontinue TM. I ask this because in the eventuality that I, or someone else, may be disconcerted by having this state of consciousness during sleep it would be quite helpful to know that the discontinuation of TM would reverse this phenomenon. I would be deeply appreciative of any information that anyone might be willing to give me. Thank you in advance! Cheers Bill * * Dear Bill, welcome to Fairfield Life! Great questions; I'll take a shot at them. In my recollection, anyhow, witnessing sleep before Awakening was somewhat transitory. Since then however, it has generally felt as if a part of me is always asleep (if I had to locate this part, it would be in the back of my brain) and a part of me is always awake (this would be more in the brow area), so there really appears to be only one state of consciousness, or more accurately, one consciousness always and ever Here and Now which predominates through all its various states, so that the brain as a whole sings, regardless of where I happen to be localized in the brain's choir. Conscious mantra-meditation ceased immediately upon Awakening, as it was self-evident that I was not, and That Alone IS, and there was no longer anywhere to go, and that was 29 years ago. I have no regrets and no desire to change, but then this is certainly not Cosmic Consciousness as classically described, or not C.C. alone; it is indescribable, more like everything and nothing, more like utter ignorance with utter contentment :-)
[FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
Dear Bill, Not being familiar with TM, I can just share my experiences. In my experience not being aware during deep sleep state doesn't seem to hinder bliss and perfect awareness during the wakeful state. Most of the times I sleep like a log, if I'm too high I might feel like I'm aware of my sleep state but this happens rarely. However during a period of 3 months in 09 10, during this period that I refer to as the descension of divine I hardly slept and had full awareness even while asleep. But I believe this to be a side effect of the body trying to cope with energy than any natural state. My body treated this energy as an invasion and felt the need to be awake 24 hours a day to deal with this. So based on my experience it was just an interim state, after having integrated the energy and rising up higher in consciousness, so to speak I just sleep. TM is a path like many others, like my Guru would say once you reach the shore you leave the boat behind, you wouldn't carry it on your head. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote: Hello to everyone on Fairfield life. My name is Dr. William Parkinson and I have been lurking here for over a month. I have only recently started meditating ( 5months) and I am trying to learn as much about TM as I can; both the good and the bad. Recently, MZ\RobinC and Ravi Yogi have made some brief, but tantalizing allusions, to sleep (actually the lack thereof) and various states of consciousness. Years ago I read the paper in the journal Sleep documenting that people in established CC still maintain alpha wave paterns even during delta sleep. I was wondering if anyone could shed further light on this phenomenon. I understand that this is not the same as insomnia, but I'm wondering exactly what happens and whether or not it interferes with sleep. I am also wondering whether or not so-called cosmic consciousness would recede back into the background if someone were to discontinue TM. I ask this because in the eventuality that I, or someone else, may be disconcerted by having this state of consciousness during sleep it would be quite helpful to know that the discontinuation of TM would reverse this phenomenon. I would be deeply appreciative of any information that anyone might be willing to give me. Thank you in advance! Cheers Bill
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
Thank you so much for getting back to me so quickly! I deeply appreciate the warm welcome. Honestly, however, you have truly baffled me, because your own experience goes far beyond so-called cosmic consciousness. Up until now I thought the only two people that had reached what TM jargon calls UC was Robin C. and Ravi. And now it seems you reached at too! An interesting question as a follow-up might be this: if a person simply follows the 20 minutes-twice a day formulation, will they ever go beyond simple cosmic consciousness? I wonder if those of you who have reached GC and UC did so because of advanced meditation techniques, many hours of so-called 'rounding;' not to mention many more hours of meditation throughout the week. I think of Clint Eastwood who has been doing TM for four years. Seemingly he has done it in the simple 20 minute-twice a day fashion. Did you and Ravi (are you there?) engage in this more dedicated practice of TM? I must also say that your post has caused me some degree of disquiet. Meditation, at least for the purposes of my goal, is something that is done because it is helpful; not because it develops long-term brain changes of questionable utility Cheers Bill From: RoryGoff roryg...@hotmail.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 10:10 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote: Hello to everyone on Fairfield life. My name is Dr. William Parkinson and I have been lurking here for over a month. I have only recently started meditating ( 5months) and I am trying to learn as much about TM as I can; both the good and the bad. Recently, MZ\RobinC and Ravi Yogi have made some brief, but tantalizing allusions, to sleep (actually the lack thereof) and various states of consciousness. Years ago I read the paper in the journal Sleep documenting that people in established CC still maintain alpha wave paterns even during delta sleep. I was wondering if anyone could shed further light on this phenomenon. I understand that this is not the same as insomnia, but I'm wondering exactly what happens and whether or not it interferes with sleep. I am also wondering whether or not so-called cosmic consciousness would recede back into the background if someone were to discontinue TM. I ask this because in the eventuality that I, or someone else, may be disconcerted by having this state of consciousness during sleep it would be quite helpful to know that the discontinuation of TM would reverse this phenomenon. I would be deeply appreciative of any information that anyone might be willing to give me. Thank you in advance! Cheers Bill * * Dear Bill, welcome to Fairfield Life! Great questions; I'll take a shot at them. In my recollection, anyhow, witnessing sleep before Awakening was somewhat transitory. Since then however, it has generally felt as if a part of me is always asleep (if I had to locate this part, it would be in the back of my brain) and a part of me is always awake (this would be more in the brow area), so there really appears to be only one state of consciousness, or more accurately, one consciousness always and ever Here and Now which predominates through all its various states, so that the brain as a whole sings, regardless of where I happen to be localized in the brain's choir. Conscious mantra-meditation ceased immediately upon Awakening, as it was self-evident that I was not, and That Alone IS, and there was no longer anywhere to go, and that was 29 years ago. I have no regrets and no desire to change, but then this is certainly not Cosmic Consciousness as classically described, or not C.C. alone; it is indescribable, more like everything and nothing, more like utter ignorance with utter contentment :-)
[FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
Yo, William, don't take them too seriously. According to MMY, if you can't perform any and all of the sidhis (e.g. Yogic Flying) then you're not truly in Unity Consciousness. Now, for those who like to play semantic games with the above, I'll take it back a step: if, immediately prior to Full Liberation, you don't find yourself able to perform all the Sidhis to perfection during sutra practice during your participation in the TM/TM-SIdhis program, then you are probably not fully enlightened, no matter what your perceptions suggest. MMY himself once hinted that that was one of the reasons why he realized the world wasn't quite how it should be when he was off on his own, meditating after his guru dev died: he wasn't doing/experiencing some of the stuff that was predicted for someone in his apparent state of consciousness and finally concluded that the current state of the world's consciousness wouldn't support full enlightenment, and eventually set out to remedy the situation. L. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote: Thank you so much for getting back to me so quickly! I deeply appreciate the  warm welcome.  Honestly, however, you have truly baffled me, because your own experience goes far beyond so-called cosmic consciousness. Up until now I thought the only two people that had reached what TM jargon calls UC was Robin C. and Ravi. And now it seems you reached at too! An interesting question as a follow-up might be this: if a person simply follows the 20 minutes-twice a day formulation, will they ever go beyond simple cosmic consciousness?  I wonder if those of you who have reached GC and UC did so because of advanced meditation techniques, many hours of so-called 'rounding;' not to mention many more hours of meditation throughout the week. I think of Clint Eastwood who has been doing TM for four years. Seemingly he has done it in the simple 20 minute-twice a day fashion. Did you and Ravi (are you there?)  engage in this more dedicated practice of TM? I must also say that your post has caused me some degree of disquiet. Meditation, at least for the purposes of my goal, is something that is done because it is helpful; not because it develops long-term brain changes of questionable utility Cheers Bill From: RoryGoff rorygoff@... To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 10:10 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@ wrote: Hello to everyone on Fairfield life. My name is Dr. William Parkinson and I have been lurking here for over a month. I have only recently started meditating ( 5months) and I am trying to learn as much about TM as I can; both the good and the bad. Recently, MZ\RobinC and Ravi Yogi have made some brief, but tantalizing allusions, to sleep (actually the lack thereof) and various states of consciousness. Years ago I read the paper in the journal Sleep documenting that people in established CC still maintain alpha wave paterns even during delta sleep. I was wondering if anyone could shed further light on this phenomenon. I understand that this is not the same as insomnia, but I'm wondering exactly what happens and whether or not it interferes with sleep. I am also wondering whether or not so-called cosmic consciousness would recede back into the background if someone were to discontinue TM. I ask this because in the eventuality that I, or someone else, may be disconcerted by having this state of consciousness during sleep it would be quite helpful to know that the discontinuation of TM would reverse this phenomenon. I would be deeply appreciative of any information that anyone might be willing to give me. Thank you in advance! Cheers Bill * * Dear Bill, welcome to Fairfield Life! Great questions; I'll take a shot at them. In my recollection, anyhow, witnessing sleep before Awakening was somewhat transitory. Since then however, it has generally felt as if a part of me is always asleep (if I had to locate this part, it would be in the back of my brain) and a part of me is always awake (this would be more in the brow area), so there really appears to be only one state of consciousness, or more accurately, one consciousness always and ever Here and Now which predominates through all its various states, so that the brain as a whole sings, regardless of where I happen to be localized in the brain's choir. Conscious mantra-meditation ceased immediately upon Awakening, as it was self-evident that I was not, and That Alone IS, and there was no longer anywhere to go, and that was 29 years ago. I have no regrets and no desire to change, but then this is certainly not Cosmic Consciousness as classically described, or not C.C. alone; it is indescribable, more like
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
Thank you so much for sharing with me what happened to you Ravi. I did not know that you are using something other than TM. The only reason why I practice TM is because having tried other meditations, TM, for better or worse, seems to allow me to transcend in the quickest manner I have ever experienced. It happened in the first day or two, and that was something I can't say for any other form of meditation I tried, including classical concentration (which I started when I was perhaps 12 years old following the guidelines in a book by Richard Hittleman on Yoga), or vipanassana, or meditating on my breath while using a simple form of pranayama. For me TM is simply an expedient tool-- I have no desire to reach GC or UG and right now I'm just trying to figure out if I should even allowed to go so far as CC 24/7. Frankly this entire notion of having so-called Cosmic Consciousness, this awareness of a silent inner level, during sleep is something that concerns me. I wonder if it will make sleep far more difficult. And I also worry about what I just read concerning what seems to be long-lasting, if not permanent changes to either neurophysiology or even neuroanatomy. Btw, what form of meditation were you practicing? And also, I love the comment by your Guru. That was a very perceptive comment!! Cheers Bill From: Ravi Yogi raviy...@att.net To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 10:55 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?) Dear Bill, Not being familiar with TM, I can just share my experiences. In my experience not being aware during deep sleep state doesn't seem to hinder bliss and perfect awareness during the wakeful state. Most of the times I sleep like a log, if I'm too high I might feel like I'm aware of my sleep state but this happens rarely. However during a period of 3 months in 09 10, during this period that I refer to as the descension of divine I hardly slept and had full awareness even while asleep. But I believe this to be a side effect of the body trying to cope with energy than any natural state. My body treated this energy as an invasion and felt the need to be awake 24 hours a day to deal with this. So based on my experience it was just an interim state, after having integrated the energy and rising up higher in consciousness, so to speak I just sleep. TM is a path like many others, like my Guru would say once you reach the shore you leave the boat behind, you wouldn't carry it on your head. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote: Hello to everyone on Fairfield life. My name is Dr. William Parkinson and I have been lurking here for over a month. I have only recently started meditating ( 5months) and I am trying to learn as much about TM as I can; both the good and the bad. Recently, MZ\RobinC and Ravi Yogi have made some brief, but tantalizing allusions, to sleep (actually the lack thereof) and various states of consciousness. Years ago I read the paper in the journal Sleep documenting that people in established CC still maintain alpha wave paterns even during delta sleep. I was wondering if anyone could shed further light on this phenomenon. I understand that this is not the same as insomnia, but I'm wondering exactly what happens and whether or not it interferes with sleep. I am also wondering whether or not so-called cosmic consciousness would recede back into the background if someone were to discontinue TM. I ask this because in the eventuality that I, or someone else, may be disconcerted by having this state of consciousness during sleep it would be quite helpful to know that the discontinuation of TM would reverse this phenomenon. I would be deeply appreciative of any information that anyone might be willing to give me. Thank you in advance! Cheers Bill
[FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote: Thank you so much for getting back to me so quickly! I deeply appreciate the  warm welcome.  Honestly, however, you have truly baffled me, because your own experience goes far beyond so-called cosmic consciousness. Up until now I thought the only two people that had reached what TM jargon calls UC was Robin C. and Ravi. And now it seems you reached at too! * * I wouldn't characterize this IS-ness as classic UC either, as when UC dawned for me, anyhow, there was still an essentially-separate I who was enjoying Unity or a tunnel-self with various objects of perception, but who still essentially regarded itself as separate and subject to spacetime and growth and experience coming from somewhere outside itself. Now, however, we contain a great many Is, all of whom are in different states of consciousness, depending on the quality of our relationship with them. An interesting question as a follow-up might be this: if a person simply follows the 20 minutes-twice a day formulation, will they ever go beyond simple cosmic consciousness? * * Every one is different, but I don't see why not :-)  I wonder if those of you who have reached GC and UC did so because of advanced meditation techniques, many hours of so-called 'rounding;' not to mention many more hours of meditation throughout the week. * * That certainly was the case for me, but the great joke is, the path is actually pathless, from Here to Here, as MMY puts it, which I would gloss as being from a relative non-appreciation of Here and Now to a total whole-hearted appreciation of Here and Now. So whatever it takes to erase the intellect's superimpositions of not-Here and not-Now we are placing upon THAT-Us Here and Now, well, that is what happens :-) I think of Clint Eastwood who has been doing TM for four years. Seemingly he has done it in the simple 20 minute-twice a day fashion. Did you and Ravi (are you there?)  engage in this more dedicated practice of TM? * * Yes. I must also say that your post has caused me some degree of disquiet. Meditation, at least for the purposes of my goal, is something that is done because it is helpful; not because it develops long-term brain changes of questionable utility Cheers Bill * * For me, anyhow, this is IT, Home, my Beloved, what I had been searching for forever, and so I am supremely satisfied with its questionable utility :-)
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
Thank you so much for telling me about this. Is this what MMY claimed about his own sense of mission? I have read the 'Beacon Light of the Himalayas' (from Paul Mason's site) and I thought that his sole purpose was simply because he had a meditation suitable for so-called 'householders.' So his real purpose was to raise the entire world consciousness, which in turn would allow others to become fully enlightened? Did I understand you correctly? If that is true that is a remarkable insight into his mission (or at least what he may have claimed for his mission). This is what I love about FFL. I get to learn so many interesting details and tidbits from all of you who have been in the movement years ago, and know far more than I do. Thank you for telling me about this!!! Cheers Bill From: sparaig lengli...@cox.net To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 11:11 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?) Yo, William, don't take them too seriously. According to MMY, if you can't perform any and all of the sidhis (e.g. Yogic Flying) then you're not truly in Unity Consciousness. Now, for those who like to play semantic games with the above, I'll take it back a step: if, immediately prior to Full Liberation, you don't find yourself able to perform all the Sidhis to perfection during sutra practice during your participation in the TM/TM-SIdhis program, then you are probably not fully enlightened, no matter what your perceptions suggest. MMY himself once hinted that that was one of the reasons why he realized the world wasn't quite how it should be when he was off on his own, meditating after his guru dev died: he wasn't doing/experiencing some of the stuff that was predicted for someone in his apparent state of consciousness and finally concluded that the current state of the world's consciousness wouldn't support full enlightenment, and eventually set out to remedy the situation. L. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote: Thank you so much for getting back to me so quickly! I deeply appreciate the  warm welcome.  Honestly, however, you have truly baffled me, because your own experience goes far beyond so-called cosmic consciousness. Up until now I thought the only two people that had reached what TM jargon calls UC was Robin C. and Ravi. And now it seems you reached at too! An interesting question as a follow-up might be this: if a person simply follows the 20 minutes-twice a day formulation, will they ever go beyond simple cosmic consciousness?  I wonder if those of you who have reached GC and UC did so because of advanced meditation techniques, many hours of so-called 'rounding;' not to mention many more hours of meditation throughout the week. I think of Clint Eastwood who has been doing TM for four years. Seemingly he has done it in the simple 20 minute-twice a day fashion. Did you and Ravi (are you there?)  engage in this more dedicated practice of TM? I must also say that your post has caused me some degree of disquiet. Meditation, at least for the purposes of my goal, is something that is done because it is helpful; not because it develops long-term brain changes of questionable utility Cheers Bill From: RoryGoff rorygoff@... To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 10:10 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@ wrote: Hello to everyone on Fairfield life. My name is Dr. William Parkinson and I have been lurking here for over a month. I have only recently started meditating ( 5months) and I am trying to learn as much about TM as I can; both the good and the bad. Recently, MZ\RobinC and Ravi Yogi have made some brief, but tantalizing allusions, to sleep (actually the lack thereof) and various states of consciousness. Years ago I read the paper in the journal Sleep documenting that people in established CC still maintain alpha wave paterns even during delta sleep. I was wondering if anyone could shed further light on this phenomenon. I understand that this is not the same as insomnia, but I'm wondering exactly what happens and whether or not it interferes with sleep. I am also wondering whether or not so-called cosmic consciousness would recede back into the background if someone were to discontinue TM. I ask this because in the eventuality that I, or someone else, may be disconcerted by having this state of consciousness during sleep it would be quite helpful to know that the discontinuation of TM would reverse this phenomenon. I would be deeply appreciative of any information that anyone might be willing to give me. Thank you in advance! Cheers Bill * * Dear Bill, welcome to Fairfield Life! Great questions; I'll take a shot at them. In my
[FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
I would agree with this whole-heartedly; we are only as Awake as everyone of us is. The Dome is (among others) an immense particle-accelerator for the many particle-Is of our own body. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@... wrote: Yo, William, don't take them too seriously. According to MMY, if you can't perform any and all of the sidhis (e.g. Yogic Flying) then you're not truly in Unity Consciousness. Now, for those who like to play semantic games with the above, I'll take it back a step: if, immediately prior to Full Liberation, you don't find yourself able to perform all the Sidhis to perfection during sutra practice during your participation in the TM/TM-SIdhis program, then you are probably not fully enlightened, no matter what your perceptions suggest. MMY himself once hinted that that was one of the reasons why he realized the world wasn't quite how it should be when he was off on his own, meditating after his guru dev died: he wasn't doing/experiencing some of the stuff that was predicted for someone in his apparent state of consciousness and finally concluded that the current state of the world's consciousness wouldn't support full enlightenment, and eventually set out to remedy the situation. L. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@ wrote: Thank you so much for getting back to me so quickly! I deeply appreciate the  warm welcome.  Honestly, however, you have truly baffled me, because your own experience goes far beyond so-called cosmic consciousness. Up until now I thought the only two people that had reached what TM jargon calls UC was Robin C. and Ravi. And now it seems you reached at too! An interesting question as a follow-up might be this: if a person simply follows the 20 minutes-twice a day formulation, will they ever go beyond simple cosmic consciousness?  I wonder if those of you who have reached GC and UC did so because of advanced meditation techniques, many hours of so-called 'rounding;' not to mention many more hours of meditation throughout the week. I think of Clint Eastwood who has been doing TM for four years. Seemingly he has done it in the simple 20 minute-twice a day fashion. Did you and Ravi (are you there?)  engage in this more dedicated practice of TM? I must also say that your post has caused me some degree of disquiet. Meditation, at least for the purposes of my goal, is something that is done because it is helpful; not because it develops long-term brain changes of questionable utility Cheers Bill From: RoryGoff rorygoff@ To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 10:10 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@ wrote: Hello to everyone on Fairfield life. My name is Dr. William Parkinson and I have been lurking here for over a month. I have only recently started meditating ( 5months) and I am trying to learn as much about TM as I can; both the good and the bad. Recently, MZ\RobinC and Ravi Yogi have made some brief, but tantalizing allusions, to sleep (actually the lack thereof) and various states of consciousness. Years ago I read the paper in the journal Sleep documenting that people in established CC still maintain alpha wave paterns even during delta sleep. I was wondering if anyone could shed further light on this phenomenon. I understand that this is not the same as insomnia, but I'm wondering exactly what happens and whether or not it interferes with sleep. I am also wondering whether or not so-called cosmic consciousness would recede back into the background if someone were to discontinue TM. I ask this because in the eventuality that I, or someone else, may be disconcerted by having this state of consciousness during sleep it would be quite helpful to know that the discontinuation of TM would reverse this phenomenon. I would be deeply appreciative of any information that anyone might be willing to give me. Thank you in advance! Cheers Bill * * Dear Bill, welcome to Fairfield Life! Great questions; I'll take a shot at them. In my recollection, anyhow, witnessing sleep before Awakening was somewhat transitory. Since then however, it has generally felt as if a part of me is always asleep (if I had to locate this part, it would be in the back of my brain) and a part of me is always awake (this would be more in the brow area), so there really appears to be only one state of consciousness, or more accurately, one consciousness always and ever Here and Now which predominates through all its various states, so that the brain as a whole sings, regardless of where I happen to be localized in the brain's choir. Conscious mantra-meditation ceased
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
I must admit to being very pleased Rory-- you're the first person on this forum that I have encountered who seems to be happy that they've reached a certain level of 'higher consciousness.' To hear RC tell of his own experience, it did not seem like a very pleasant or helpful state of mind at all! I read about the helicopter incident in the book 'The Maharishi Effect and it seemed to me that this behavior might have been indicative of a highly unstable state of mind (no offense RC if you are still reading these posts; please do not take it as any indication of a judgment on you as you are now). You're the first one so far who seems to be contented with having reached a higher state of consciousness. Thank you so much for taking the time and trouble to inform me of your own experiences. It has proven to be invaluable to me and very rewarding-- even if I'm not sure I fully grasp in its entirety what happened to you during these periods of intense illumination (perhaps that is a better wording than Enlightenment). Cheers Bill From: RoryGoff roryg...@hotmail.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 11:18 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote: Thank you so much for getting back to me so quickly! I deeply appreciate the  warm welcome.  Honestly, however, you have truly baffled me, because your own experience goes far beyond so-called cosmic consciousness. Up until now I thought the only two people that had reached what TM jargon calls UC was Robin C. and Ravi. And now it seems you reached at too! * * I wouldn't characterize this IS-ness as classic UC either, as when UC dawned for me, anyhow, there was still an essentially-separate I who was enjoying Unity or a tunnel-self with various objects of perception, but who still essentially regarded itself as separate and subject to spacetime and growth and experience coming from somewhere outside itself. Now, however, we contain a great many Is, all of whom are in different states of consciousness, depending on the quality of our relationship with them. An interesting question as a follow-up might be this: if a person simply follows the 20 minutes-twice a day formulation, will they ever go beyond simple cosmic consciousness? * * Every one is different, but I don't see why not :-)  I wonder if those of you who have reached GC and UC did so because of advanced meditation techniques, many hours of so-called 'rounding;' not to mention many more hours of meditation throughout the week. * * That certainly was the case for me, but the great joke is, the path is actually pathless, from Here to Here, as MMY puts it, which I would gloss as being from a relative non-appreciation of Here and Now to a total whole-hearted appreciation of Here and Now. So whatever it takes to erase the intellect's superimpositions of not-Here and not-Now we are placing upon THAT-Us Here and Now, well, that is what happens :-) I think of Clint Eastwood who has been doing TM for four years. Seemingly he has done it in the simple 20 minute-twice a day fashion. Did you and Ravi (are you there?)  engage in this more dedicated practice of TM? * * Yes. I must also say that your post has caused me some degree of disquiet. Meditation, at least for the purposes of my goal, is something that is done because it is helpful; not because it develops long-term brain changes of questionable utility Cheers Bill * * For me, anyhow, this is IT, Home, my Beloved, what I had been searching for forever, and so I am supremely satisfied with its questionable utility :-)
[FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote: Thank you so much for telling me about this. Is this what MMY claimed about his own sense of mission? I have read the 'Beacon Light of the Himalayas' (from Paul Mason's site) and I thought that his sole purpose was simply because he had a meditation suitable for so-called 'householders.' So his real purpose was to raise the entire world consciousness, which in turn would allow others to become fully enlightened? Did I understand you correctly? If that is true that is a remarkable insight into his mission (or at least what he may have claimed for his mission). This is what I love about FFL. I get to learn so many interesting details and tidbits from all of you who have been in the movement years ago, and know far more than I do. Thank you for telling me about this!!! Cheers I think you could say that his own mission involved finding his own full enlightenment, or at least attempting to, by raising the world's consciousness to the point where he could be fully enlightened. L.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote: I must admit to being very pleased Rory-- you're the first person on this forum that I have encountered who seems to be happy that they've reached a certain level of 'higher consciousness.' To hear RC tell of his own experience, it did not seem like a very pleasant or helpful state of mind at all!  I read about the helicopter incident in the book 'The Maharishi Effect and it seemed to me that this behavior might have been indicative of a highly unstable state of mind (no offense RC if you are still reading these posts; please do not take it as any indication of a judgment on you as you are now). You're the first one so far who seems to be contented with having reached a higher state of consciousness. Thank you so much for taking the time and trouble to inform me of your own experiences. It has proven to be invaluable to me and very rewarding-- even if I'm not sure I fully grasp in its entirety what happened to you during these periods of intense illumination (perhaps that is a better wording than Enlightenment). Cheers Bill  * * Yes, in my experience as long as we are primarily identified with a separate I -- and I see no real evidence thus far of anyone claiming classical UC who has surrendered that -- then we know there is still something more than this :-)
[FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@ wrote: Thank you so much for telling me about this. Is this what MMY claimed about his own sense of mission? I have read the 'Beacon Light of the Himalayas' (from Paul Mason's site) and I thought that his sole purpose was simply because he had a meditation suitable for so-called 'householders.' So his real purpose was to raise the entire world consciousness, which in turn would allow others to become fully enlightened? Did I understand you correctly? If that is true that is a remarkable insight into his mission (or at least what he may have claimed for his mission). This is what I love about FFL. I get to learn so many interesting details and tidbits from all of you who have been in the movement years ago, and know far more than I do. Thank you for telling me about this!!! Cheers --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@... wrote: I think you could say that his own mission involved finding his own full enlightenment, or at least attempting to, by raising the world's consciousness to the point where he could be fully enlightened. L. * * * *Y*E*S*! * * * It appears to be an entirely selfish affair for all of us, even for every Bodhisattva or Saint :-)
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
On 07/13/2011 11:12 AM, William Parkinson wrote: Thank you so much for sharing with me what happened to you Ravi. I did not know that you are using something other than TM. The only reason why I practice TM is because having tried other meditations, TM, for better or worse, seems to allow me to transcend in the quickest manner I have ever experienced. That's because it's a beej mantra which are generally used to enrich longer mantras. They're short and create a quick dip. Longer mantras create a more sustained effect. Maharishi wanted people to get the advanced technique as early as a year and a half after the first. It resembles a guru mantra for the tradition. It happened in the first day or two, and that was something I can't say for any other form of meditation I tried, including classical concentration (which I started when I was perhaps 12 years old following the guidelines in a book by Richard Hittleman on Yoga), or vipanassana, or meditating on my breath while using a simple form of pranayama. For me TM is simply an expedient tool-- I have no desire to reach GC or UG and right now I'm just trying to figure out if I should even allowed to go so far as CC 24/7. Frankly this entire notion of having so-called Cosmic Consciousness, this awareness of a silent inner level, during sleep is something that concerns me. I wonder if it will make sleep far more difficult. You probably know that most brain wave research would say that deep sleep would be the delta state which is possible to produce through meditation too. Back in the 1970s I was part of a university study on meditation and had an EEG test. The researcher was looking for alpha waves but I produced theta. We now know that theta states (as well as delta) are signs of deeper states of mediation. I don't know why the movement keeps pushing alpha states. Witnessing in sleep is not uncommon when one practices advanced meditations. But you'll also find plenty of yogis who will tell you they are dead to the world during sleep and happy for it. I taught TM briefly in the late 70s. About 11 years ago I learned tantra from an authentic Indian tantric yogi who resides in the US. TM for me was a dead end because we were never taught things like mantra shastra or how to use different mantras. We were nothing more than parrots for the technique. With the tantric I learned things like mantra shastra. And I also worry about what I just read concerning what seems to be long-lasting, if not permanent changes to either neurophysiology or even neuroanatomy. Btw, what form of meditation were you practicing? And also, I love the comment by your Guru. That was a very perceptive comment!! Cheers Bill
[FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote: Thank you so much for sharing with me what happened to you Ravi. I did not know that you are using something other than TM. The only reason why I practice TM is because having tried other meditations, TM, for better or worse, seems to allow me to transcend in the quickest manner I have ever experienced. It happened in the first day or two, and that was something I can't say for any other form of meditation I tried, including classical concentration (which I started when I was perhaps 12 years old following the guidelines in a book by Richard Hittleman on Yoga), or vipanassana, or meditating on my breath while using a simple form of pranayama. For me TM is simply an expedient tool-- I have no desire to reach GC or UG and right now I'm just trying to figure out if I should even allowed to go so far as CC 24/7.  Frankly this entire notion of having so-called Cosmic Consciousness, this awareness of a silent inner level, during sleep is something that concerns me. I wonder if it will make sleep far more difficult. And I also worry about what I just read concerning what seems to be long-lasting, if not permanent changes to either neurophysiology or even neuroanatomy. Btw, what form of meditation were you practicing? And also, I love the comment by your Guru. That was a very perceptive comment!!  Cheers Bill From: Ravi Yogi raviyogi@... To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 10:55 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)  Dear Bill, Not being familiar with TM, I can just share my experiences. In my experience not being aware during deep sleep state doesn't seem to hinder bliss and perfect awareness during the wakeful state. Most of the times I sleep like a log, if I'm too high I might feel like I'm aware of my sleep state but this happens rarely. However during a period of 3 months in 09 10, during this period that I refer to as the descension of divine I hardly slept and had full awareness even while asleep. But I believe this to be a side effect of the body trying to cope with energy than any natural state. My body treated this energy as an invasion and felt the need to be awake 24 hours a day to deal with this. So based on my experience it was just an interim state, after having integrated the energy and rising up higher in consciousness, so to speak I just sleep. TM is a path like many others, like my Guru would say once you reach the shore you leave the boat behind, you wouldn't carry it on your head. For me the further shore occasionally seems closer than at other times, but invariably a cleansing flood washes the boat back down stream, and the further shore seems at least as far away as ever, if not more. IOW, I haven't found an opportunity to carry the boat around on my head for any appreciable length of time, at least. To paraphrase MMY: as long as you have thoughts during meditation, you can still benefit from meditation... L.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozguru@... wrote: [...] You probably know that most brain wave research would say that deep sleep would be the delta state which is possible to produce through meditation too. Back in the 1970s I was part of a university study on meditation and had an EEG test. The researcher was looking for alpha waves but I produced theta. We now know that theta states (as well as delta) are signs of deeper states of mediation. I don't know why the movement keeps pushing alpha states. The most consistent EEG changes during TM they have found are in the Alpha band in certain parts of the brain, especially during episodes of pure consciousness. There's no justifiable reason to push anything else. L.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
On 07/13/2011 12:17 PM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitunoozguru@... wrote: [...] You probably know that most brain wave research would say that deep sleep would be the delta state which is possible to produce through meditation too. Back in the 1970s I was part of a university study on meditation and had an EEG test. The researcher was looking for alpha waves but I produced theta. We now know that theta states (as well as delta) are signs of deeper states of mediation. I don't know why the movement keeps pushing alpha states. The most consistent EEG changes during TM they have found are in the Alpha band in certain parts of the brain, especially during episodes of pure consciousness. There's no justifiable reason to push anything else. L. Sure, because TM is only yoga lite. :-D Just simple breathing exercises can produce alpha states.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
With regards to William Parkinson, Ravi Yogi, and Lawson --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@ wrote: Thank you so much for sharing with me what happened to you Ravi. I did not know that you are using something other than TM. The only reason why I practice TM is because having tried other meditations, TM, for better or worse, seems to allow me to transcend in the quickest manner I have ever experienced. It happened in the first day or two, and that was something I can't say for any other form of meditation I tried, including classical concentration (which I started when I was perhaps 12 years old following the guidelines in a book by Richard Hittleman on Yoga), or vipanassana, or meditating on my breath while using a simple form of pranayama. For me TM is simply an expedient tool-- I have no desire to reach GC or UG and right now I'm just trying to figure out if I should even allowed to go so far as CC 24/7. Frankly this entire notion of having so-called Cosmic Consciousness, this awareness of a silent inner level, during sleep is something that concerns me. I wonder if it will make sleep far more difficult. And I also worry about what I just read concerning what seems to be long-lasting, if not permanent changes to either neurophysiology or even neuroanatomy. Btw, what form of meditation were you practicing? And also, I love the comment by your Guru. That was a very perceptive comment!! Cheers Bill From: Ravi Yogi raviyogi@ To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 10:55 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?) Dear Bill, Not being familiar with TM, I can just share my experiences. In my experience not being aware during deep sleep state doesn't seem to hinder bliss and perfect awareness during the wakeful state. Most of the times I sleep like a log, if I'm too high I might feel like I'm aware of my sleep state but this happens rarely. However during a period of 3 months in 09 10, during this period that I refer to as the descension of divine I hardly slept and had full awareness even while asleep. But I believe this to be a side effect of the body trying to cope with energy than any natural state. My body treated this energy as an invasion and felt the need to be awake 24 hours a day to deal with this. So based on my experience it was just an interim state, after having integrated the energy and rising up higher in consciousness, so to speak I just sleep. TM is a path like many others, like my Guru would say once you reach the shore you leave the boat behind, you wouldn't carry it on your head. For me the further shore occasionally seems closer than at other times, but invariably a cleansing flood washes the boat back down stream, and the further shore seems at least as far away as ever, if not more. IOW, I haven't found an opportunity to carry the boat around on my head for any appreciable length of time, at least. To paraphrase MMY: as long as you have thoughts during meditation, you can still benefit from meditation... L. I do not think it has ever been determined that the sign posts or benchmarks that meditative traditions have are clearly experienced by everyone, or that there might be partial crossovers that are out of the sequence. Some people clearly never seem to experience them, others do. I experienced terrible insomnia for years during and after a CC-like experience. The CC-like experience disappeared but the insomnia did not. It felt like I went back to square one on the game board. Eventually the insomnia went away and a different kind of 'witnessing' experience developed which was different than the CC-like phenomenon, in that it seemed very diffuse; the earlier one was a definite sense of being awareness separate from sensory experience, and being awake all the time. Regarding that I think Ravi Yogi's comment about there being more energy manifesting as a sense of sleeplessness is correct. This other, later witnessing was not like that at all, it never felt defined, it was not like a concrete experience where I could say this or that about it. It was a bummer. I lost interest in spiritual descriptions and stopped reading about them. I switched to reading novels. I had very negative thoughts about 'my path' of progress for a long time - decades. Eventually everything seemed to get more relaxed and I just started to live life without thinking about spiritual progress. One day I went outside for some air and suddenly without warning, the farther shore and the nearer shore, as Lawson put it, were one and the same, and it had always been that way, no boat required as there was no river to traverse. There is no way to describe what this it like. Then things became completely ordinary. I read spiritual literature again to gain some kind of intellectual grasp of this. The whole
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
On Jul 13, 2011, at 3:56 PM, Bhairitu wrote: On 07/13/2011 12:17 PM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitunoozguru@... wrote: [...] You probably know that most brain wave research would say that deep sleep would be the delta state which is possible to produce through meditation too. Back in the 1970s I was part of a university study on meditation and had an EEG test. The researcher was looking for alpha waves but I produced theta. We now know that theta states (as well as delta) are signs of deeper states of mediation. I don't know why the movement keeps pushing alpha states. The most consistent EEG changes during TM they have found are in the Alpha band in certain parts of the brain, especially during episodes of pure consciousness. There's no justifiable reason to push anything else. L. Sure, because TM is only yoga lite. :-D Just simple breathing exercises can produce alpha states. The much-touted witnessing of advanced TMers is seen in normal humans all the time, but esp. in the elderly and people in pain. Big whoop. As the Cambridge Handbook of Consciousness put it Other relaxation techniques have led to the same EEG profile, and studies that employed counter-balanced control relaxation conditions consistently found a lack of alpha power increases or even decreases when comparing relaxation or hypnosis to TM meditation. I hope those folks who are so wowed about TM remember to take an Ativan before they ever venture into Disneyworld or a Benihana steak house.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
Thx so much XA. What you describe is the one thing I fear the most. I have had insomnia for my entire adult life and when I went to a sleep lab way back in 1982 (at U.C.Irvine in California) I was told I had alpha intrusion.' Obviously I was having trouble getting out of the restful state of alpha and into the drowsy theta state and then into the sleeping delta. So, when the article in Sleep showed that these TM meditators where producing alpha waves, while concomitantly showing delta waves, that turned me off. I quit doing TM long ago because of it. That was 11 years ago. But around 5 months ago now I started TM again and it was not too long, perhaps 10 weeks later, I could tell that CC was starting to develop. That silent inner layer, which was there all the time when I was not too mentally active (so, watching TV I could 'feel' it), was growing and I worry about the effects on sleep. Your story is, for me, a real cautionary tale to be sure. I am deeply grateful to you for sharing it with me. I guess the only good thing to take way for all of this was that the CC experience did go away in time. If I may ask one question XA: How much were you meditating? Were you going far beyond the typical twice-per-day, 20 minute program? Were you using advanced techniques? Were you going to all those residence courses to undergo 'rounding'? Clint Eastwood has been meditating for 40 years and I assume he is doing TM 'lite,' as I am. He seems none the worse for wear, so to speak. Cheers Bill From: Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartax...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 1:45 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?) With regards to William Parkinson, Ravi Yogi, and Lawson --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@ wrote: Thank you so much for sharing with me what happened to you Ravi. I did not know that you are using something other than TM. The only reason why I practice TM is because having tried other meditations, TM, for better or worse, seems to allow me to transcend in the quickest manner I have ever experienced. It happened in the first day or two, and that was something I can't say for any other form of meditation I tried, including classical concentration (which I started when I was perhaps 12 years old following the guidelines in a book by Richard Hittleman on Yoga), or vipanassana, or meditating on my breath while using a simple form of pranayama. For me TM is simply an expedient tool-- I have no desire to reach GC or UG and right now I'm just trying to figure out if I should even allowed to go so far as CC 24/7. Frankly this entire notion of having so-called Cosmic Consciousness, this awareness of a silent inner level, during sleep is something that concerns me. I wonder if it will make sleep far more difficult. And I also worry about what I just read concerning what seems to be long-lasting, if not permanent changes to either neurophysiology or even neuroanatomy. Btw, what form of meditation were you practicing? And also, I love the comment by your Guru. That was a very perceptive comment!! Cheers Bill From: Ravi Yogi raviyogi@ To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 10:55 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?) Dear Bill, Not being familiar with TM, I can just share my experiences. In my experience not being aware during deep sleep state doesn't seem to hinder bliss and perfect awareness during the wakeful state. Most of the times I sleep like a log, if I'm too high I might feel like I'm aware of my sleep state but this happens rarely. However during a period of 3 months in 09 10, during this period that I refer to as the descension of divine I hardly slept and had full awareness even while asleep. But I believe this to be a side effect of the body trying to cope with energy than any natural state. My body treated this energy as an invasion and felt the need to be awake 24 hours a day to deal with this. So based on my experience it was just an interim state, after having integrated the energy and rising up higher in consciousness, so to speak I just sleep. TM is a path like many others, like my Guru would say once you reach the shore you leave the boat behind, you wouldn't carry it on your head. For me the further shore occasionally seems closer than at other times, but invariably a cleansing flood washes the boat back down stream, and the further shore seems at least as far away as ever, if not more. IOW, I haven't found an opportunity to carry the boat around on my head for any appreciable length of time, at least. To paraphrase MMY: as long as you have thoughts during meditation, you can still benefit from meditation... L. I do not think it has ever been determined that the sign posts or benchmarks that
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
Vaj, as I understand it, the TM people don't make hay from the mere presence of alpha waves, but rather from alpha coherence, which is wide spread over the various lobes. Is that not correct? Am I missing something here? Someone correct me if I am wrong. Cheers Bill From: Vaj vajradh...@earthlink.net To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 1:53 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?) On Jul 13, 2011, at 3:56 PM, Bhairitu wrote: On 07/13/2011 12:17 PM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitunoozguru@... wrote: [...] You probably know that most brain wave research would say that deep sleep would be the delta state which is possible to produce through meditation too. Back in the 1970s I was part of a university study on meditation and had an EEG test. The researcher was looking for alpha waves but I produced theta. We now know that theta states (as well as delta) are signs of deeper states of mediation. I don't know why the movement keeps pushing alpha states. The most consistent EEG changes during TM they have found are in the Alpha band in certain parts of the brain, especially during episodes of pure consciousness. There's no justifiable reason to push anything else. L. Sure, because TM is only yoga lite. :-D Just simple breathing exercises can produce alpha states. The much-touted witnessing of advanced TMers is seen in normal humans all the time, but esp. in the elderly and people in pain. Big whoop. As the Cambridge Handbook of Consciousness put it Other relaxation techniques have led to the same EEG profile, and studies thatemployed counter-balanced control relaxation conditions consistently found a lack of alpha power increases or even decreases when comparing relaxation or hypnosis to TM meditation. I hope those folks who are so wowed about TM remember to take an Ativan before they ever venture into Disneyworld or a Benihana steak house.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
On Jul 13, 2011, at 5:16 PM, William Parkinson wrote: Vaj, as I understand it, the TM people don't make hay from the mere presence of alpha waves, but rather from alpha coherence, which is wide spread over the various lobes. Is that not correct? Am I missing something here? Someone correct me if I am wrong. Yes, you're right. I remember being wowed by that alpha coherence. Gawd, it sounded great to me. My brain was becoming more laser-like with each meditation. I'd be mind-melding in no time. Of course, it was years later till I found out that the level of alpha coherence found in TMers wasn't any different from Joe or Jane Doe tamasic non-meditator. In fact, I was surprised to find there wasn't any unique fourth state EEG signature at all. It was all regular waking-dreaming-sleeping EEG patterns. WTF? Then we began to see a unique fourth state of EEG in advanced, long-term meditators. Strangely both Patanjali yogins and Buddhist yogins had the same EEG signature! WTF?
[FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
Exactly the way I experience it too - once the ego is cosmic it still wants to achieve things for itself, and what it wants to achieve is to wake up everything and everyone so all are aware of their cosmic nature - very SELFish and very enlightened. I have grown incredibly SELF centered and SELF-ish and once I realized that is the nature of the cosmic beast have enjoyed pretty much every minute of it. Welcome Bill - Thank you for the sweetness of your Being. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, RoryGoff rorygoff@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@ wrote: Thank you so much for telling me about this. Is this what MMY claimed about his own sense of mission? I have read the 'Beacon Light of the Himalayas' (from Paul Mason's site) and I thought that his sole purpose was simply because he had a meditation suitable for so-called 'householders.' So his real purpose was to raise the entire world consciousness, which in turn would allow others to become fully enlightened? Did I understand you correctly? If that is true that is a remarkable insight into his mission (or at least what he may have claimed for his mission). This is what I love about FFL. I get to learn so many interesting details and tidbits from all of you who have been in the movement years ago, and know far more than I do. Thank you for telling me about this!!! Cheers --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@ wrote: I think you could say that his own mission involved finding his own full enlightenment, or at least attempting to, by raising the world's consciousness to the point where he could be fully enlightened. L. * * * *Y*E*S*! * * * It appears to be an entirely selfish affair for all of us, even for every Bodhisattva or Saint :-)
[FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
Btw, what form of meditation were you practicing? And also, I love the comment by your Guru. Bill thanks for sharing your experiences and for your comments. There were really no meditation techniques my Guru prescribed other than love and service, not to mention that I didn't even bother to ask for any spiritual advice. Due to my innate nature and the upbringing by my mother I was very independent and always reacted negatively to anyone's advice. I did try lot of different techniques such as chanting, singing and I could easily get into a strong buzz regardless of the technique. I was able to get to my current state merely through my Guru's grace, my samskaras of of only accepting if it made sense to me; the pain and suffering I went through required and resulted in an existential leap. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote: Thank you so much for sharing with me what happened to you Ravi. I did not know that you are using something other than TM. The only reason why I practice TM is because having tried other meditations, TM, for better or worse, seems to allow me to transcend in the quickest manner I have ever experienced. It happened in the first day or two, and that was something I can't say for any other form of meditation I tried, including classical concentration (which I started when I was perhaps 12 years old following the guidelines in a book by Richard Hittleman on Yoga), or vipanassana, or meditating on my breath while using a simple form of pranayama. For me TM is simply an expedient tool-- I have no desire to reach GC or UG and right now I'm just trying to figure out if I should even allowed to go so far as CC 24/7.  Frankly this entire notion of having so-called Cosmic Consciousness, this awareness of a silent inner level, during sleep is something that concerns me. I wonder if it will make sleep far more difficult. And I also worry about what I just read concerning what seems to be long-lasting, if not permanent changes to either neurophysiology or even neuroanatomy. Btw, what form of meditation were you practicing? And also, I love the comment by your Guru. That was a very perceptive comment!!  Cheers Bill
[FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
Yo Lawson I wouldn't take MMY's words seriously. You may have some beliefs regarding what UC and full liberation is and I don't agree with it. TM is clearly a path of yoga with milestones, description and categories of enlightenment. The fact that I haven't heard one TM'er experience match all these shows that perhaps there's another reason why MMY would have gone to so much trouble to state all these. IMO he might have prescribed these understanding the Rajasic, goal oriented nature of the human mind. Other than a Jim here or a Rory there the literal interpretation of this has resulted in widespread prevalence of what I call pimps(intellectuals) among TM'ers totally fascinated with the whore (intellect). I don't think self-knowledge has anything to do with Siddhis, sure there seem to be varying degrees of self-knowledge based upon the external manifestation of it. According to their predominant samkaras - some become Gurus, some debate with others, a lot just continue in their respective professions, some just fall out of the society and wander enjoying their bliss. In either case I think I agree that full liberation would not be possible until you drop the physical body. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@... wrote: Yo, William, don't take them too seriously. According to MMY, if you can't perform any and all of the sidhis (e.g. Yogic Flying) then you're not truly in Unity Consciousness. Now, for those who like to play semantic games with the above, I'll take it back a step: if, immediately prior to Full Liberation, you don't find yourself able to perform all the Sidhis to perfection during sutra practice during your participation in the TM/TM-SIdhis program, then you are probably not fully enlightened, no matter what your perceptions suggest. MMY himself once hinted that that was one of the reasons why he realized the world wasn't quite how it should be when he was off on his own, meditating after his guru dev died: he wasn't doing/experiencing some of the stuff that was predicted for someone in his apparent state of consciousness and finally concluded that the current state of the world's consciousness wouldn't support full enlightenment, and eventually set out to remedy the situation. L.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
Did you and Ravi (are you there?) engage in this more dedicated practice of TM? No like I said I didn't engage in any advanced practices. IME the result does not seem to be proportional to the effort and like ancient scriptures point out the other factors seems to be grace, the existing attachments and one's innate tendencies. Meditation, at least for the purposes of my goal, is something that is done because it is helpful; not because it develops long-term brain changes of questionable utility I can vouch for long term brain changes, I would definitely disagree with the questionable utility part. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote: Thank you so much for getting back to me so quickly! I deeply appreciate the  warm welcome.  Honestly, however, you have truly baffled me, because your own experience goes far beyond so-called cosmic consciousness. Up until now I thought the only two people that had reached what TM jargon calls UC was Robin C. and Ravi. And now it seems you reached at too! An interesting question as a follow-up might be this: if a person simply follows the 20 minutes-twice a day formulation, will they ever go beyond simple cosmic consciousness?  I wonder if those of you who have reached GC and UC did so because of advanced meditation techniques, many hours of so-called 'rounding;' not to mention many more hours of meditation throughout the week. I think of Clint Eastwood who has been doing TM for four years. Seemingly he has done it in the simple 20 minute-twice a day fashion. Did you and Ravi (are you there?)  engage in this more dedicated practice of TM? I must also say that your post has caused me some degree of disquiet. Meditation, at least for the purposes of my goal, is something that is done because it is helpful; not because it develops long-term brain changes of questionable utility Cheers Bill
[FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
I did not round much. I had a few advanced techniques but stopped getting any more. I was never much into the esoterica of this sort of thing. When one gets into these things, one is messing with the very thing that controls our perception, and there are dangers. Early on, even before I learned TM, I had some fantastic experiences. In some ways they were very much like the most recent one, but less clear, foggy by comparison though at the time they seemed really grand. I feel my persistence paid off. You can always stop anytime and see if there is a positive or negative change. I think one of the mistakes people get into is thinking, based on what is described as continual bliss, that you are supposed to feel really good all the time, and that if you are not, something is wrong. Some seem to get 'addicted' to TM for this reason. They do feel good during meditation and after, and are desperate to always feel good. Some meditators have a really rough time, stress release is a pandora's box, you never know what might be buried in your psyche, or how or when it might show its ugly head. You need a certain amount of courage to get into this stuff. I know of others who also had bad insomnia, but I don't know how theirs turned out. However if lying down and resting, you do not oppose it, the body still gets rest. I do not meditate on a schedule anymore, but it is usually two times a day, sometimes three, sometimes one, and I do not time meditations anymore. I start and stop based on the way it feels. A TM teacher will probably tell you this is not the way to do it. Early on in my 'practice' I asked a TM teacher why I couldn't meditate longer, say 25 minutes. I got what I considered a run-around answer, not to the point. So I did the experiment. After a week I did not feel so good, so I went back to 20 minutes. Years and years later, I found I could meditate for hours and it had no deleterious effect, but usually I did not do this, simply because I had not the time, I had to do other things, like work etc. However if something seems amiss, doing what you do less rather than more is usually the best test, except for sleep. I sleep a normal time now; there is awareness but it no longer feels like I am not getting enough sleep, unless I stay up really late, which I am prone to do, and then have to get up early, just like regular people. I am a regular people. There is nothing special about this in spite of what some think. I have been told Maharishi only slept a few hours a night 2 to 4 something like that, or even less. He got an incredible amount of work done. I don't think anyone has attempted to create a baseline data set about the effects of TM and other meditations on sleep as to duration, amount of restfulness etc. People are different, and the detailed physiological response to meditation might be less uniform than advertised. Your problem might be that you just worry about it because it seems non normal, and that worry keeps you more alert than necessary. Just like random thoughts in meditation, you can let it be that you are lying down and are awake, letting go of thoughts that seem to say this should not be this way. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote: Thx so much XA. What you describe is the one thing I fear the most. I have had insomnia for my entire adult life and when I went to a sleep lab way back in 1982 (at U.C.Irvine in California) I was told I had alpha intrusion.' Obviously I was having trouble getting out of the restful state of alpha and into the drowsy theta state and then into the sleeping delta. So, when the article in Sleep showed that these TM meditators where producing alpha waves, while concomitantly showing delta waves, that turned me off. I quit doing TM long ago because of it. That was 11 years ago. But around 5 months ago now I started TM again and it was not too long, perhaps 10 weeks later, I could tell that CC was starting to develop. That silent inner layer, which was there all the time when I was not too mentally active (so, watching TV I could 'feel' it), was growing and I worry about the effects on sleep. Â Your story is, for me, a real cautionary tale to be sure. I am deeply grateful to you for sharing it with me. Â Â I guess the only good thing to take way for all of this was that the CC experience did go away in time. If I may ask one question XA: How much were you meditating? Were you going far beyond the typical twice-per-day, Â 20 minute program? Were you using advanced techniques? Were you going to all those residence courses to undergo 'rounding'? Clint Eastwood has been meditating for 40 years and I assume he is doing TM 'lite,' as I am. Â He seems none the worse for wear, so to speak. Cheers Bill From: Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@... To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 1:45 PM Subject:
[FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
Hi Xeno - thanks for your comments. I definitely agree on milestones being just general indicators and not to be taken literally. Thanks for sharing your experiences regarding the stage where one realizes the futility of the various techniques, I had similar experiences as well. I like this quote as well - Finding out that the nearer and farther shores were an illusion is a new beginning. Still gotta live and do stuff. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@... wrote: With regards to William Parkinson, Ravi Yogi, and Lawson I do not think it has ever been determined that the sign posts or benchmarks that meditative traditions have are clearly experienced by everyone, or that there might be partial crossovers that are out of the sequence. Some people clearly never seem to experience them, others do. snip This other, later witnessing was not like that at all, it never felt defined, it was not like a concrete experience where I could say this or that about it. It was a bummer. I lost interest in spiritual descriptions and stopped reading about them. I switched to reading novels. I had very negative thoughts about 'my path' of progress for a long time - decades. Eventually everything seemed to get more relaxed and I just started to live life without thinking about spiritual progress. snip One day I went outside for some air and suddenly without warning, the farther shore and the nearer shore, as Lawson put it, were one and the same, and it had always been that way, no boat required as there was no river to traverse. There is no way to describe what this it like. Then things became completely ordinary. snip Finding out that the nearer and farther shores were an illusion is a new beginning. Still gotta live and do stuff.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
Thank you so much Ravi for allowing me a peek into your experiences. When I say 'questionable utility' what I mean is this. In the Eastern tradition, as I understand it, the goal of Enlightenment is to free one from karmic bondage; that is to say, to end the endless cycle of birth, death, and rebirth (the 'transmigration of the soul'). Enlightenment is always viewed as something that dispels ignorance. And what is this ignorance? Far more often than not it is the idea that dualism is illusory. But what if there is no such thing as reincarnation (as I believe)? What good does the Enlightenment do then? And what if the phenomenological approach to religion is the worst possible way to proceed to truth? I should really take the time to write of a compelling example of this error in religion using the example if the Mormon faith. In the light of evidence from mitochondrial DNA we can now say that Joseph Smith, and everything he taught, was completely false (there were other lines of compelling evidence that converge on the same conclusion). And yet Mormons, because of a phenomenon called the 'burning bosom,' nevertheless, believe wholeheartedly that it is still true. When I get the time I think I will write a post on this. Hopefully it will be edifying to everyone on the forum. In any event, I'm not sure I see how it is useful to become enlightened, unless it makes a person a better human being; viz. becoming a more loving person. Of course, this is only my personal belief. I would be fascinated to hear anything you can tell me about what value this period in your life has had for you. I am always endlessly fascinated by the religious convictions and scruples of people no matter what the religious tradition. You are one of the few people I have ever encountered who can say that they entered into a state of consciousness that was at least close to, if not entirely synonymous with, the classical definition of enlightenment. It would be a welcome exercise to me personally if you could tell me just a little bit about why you feel it was salutary for you. In any event, I thank you deeply Ravi for sharing your experiences with me. I hope to hear more from you soon! Cheers Bill From: Ravi Yogi raviy...@att.net To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 4:00 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?) Did you and Ravi (are you there?) engage in this more dedicated practice of TM? No like I said I didn't engage in any advanced practices. IME the result does not seem to be proportional to the effort and like ancient scriptures point out the other factors seems to be grace, the existing attachments and one's innate tendencies. Meditation, at least for the purposes of my goal, is something that is done because it is helpful; not because it develops long-term brain changes of questionable utility I can vouch for long term brain changes, I would definitely disagree with the questionable utility part. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote: Thank you so much for getting back to me so quickly! I deeply appreciate the  warm welcome.  Honestly, however, you have truly baffled me, because your own experience goes far beyond so-called cosmic consciousness. Up until now I thought the only two people that had reached what TM jargon calls UC was Robin C. and Ravi. And now it seems you reached at too! An interesting question as a follow-up might be this: if a person simply follows the 20 minutes-twice a day formulation, will they ever go beyond simple cosmic consciousness?  I wonder if those of you who have reached GC and UC did so because of advanced meditation techniques, many hours of so-called 'rounding;' not to mention many more hours of meditation throughout the week. I think of Clint Eastwood who has been doing TM for four years. Seemingly he has done it in the simple 20 minute-twice a day fashion. Did you and Ravi (are you there?)  engage in this more dedicated practice of TM? I must also say that your post has caused me some degree of disquiet. Meditation, at least for the purposes of my goal, is something that is done because it is helpful; not because it develops long-term brain changes of questionable utility Cheers Bill
[FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
Agreed -- for me, anyhow, Awakening occurred as soon as I *dropped* all the milestones and criteria, as at a certain point they just got in the way of fully appreciating Here and Now. All of the enlightenment-criteria are just one, or another, or a mixture of the three gunas (usually sattva is the favorite), and Awakening is really Being without the gunas (emptiness), and so supporting all of them (fullness) :-) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@... wrote: Hi Xeno - thanks for your comments. I definitely agree on milestones being just general indicators and not to be taken literally. Thanks for sharing your experiences regarding the stage where one realizes the futility of the various techniques, I had similar experiences as well. I like this quote as well - Finding out that the nearer and farther shores were an illusion is a new beginning. Still gotta live and do stuff. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@ wrote: With regards to William Parkinson, Ravi Yogi, and Lawson I do not think it has ever been determined that the sign posts or benchmarks that meditative traditions have are clearly experienced by everyone, or that there might be partial crossovers that are out of the sequence. Some people clearly never seem to experience them, others do. snip This other, later witnessing was not like that at all, it never felt defined, it was not like a concrete experience where I could say this or that about it. It was a bummer. I lost interest in spiritual descriptions and stopped reading about them. I switched to reading novels. I had very negative thoughts about 'my path' of progress for a long time - decades. Eventually everything seemed to get more relaxed and I just started to live life without thinking about spiritual progress. snip One day I went outside for some air and suddenly without warning, the farther shore and the nearer shore, as Lawson put it, were one and the same, and it had always been that way, no boat required as there was no river to traverse. There is no way to describe what this it like. Then things became completely ordinary. snip Finding out that the nearer and farther shores were an illusion is a new beginning. Still gotta live and do stuff.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
I have no way of knowing, though perhaps Maharishi set this particular, and practically impossible definition of UC to ensure that all of us understood enlightenment or realization to be an ever expanding process, once we experience our initial Awakening. Seems to me that particular sidhis go with particular nervous systems, much as each of us becomes an engineer or doctor or circus clown. I haven't looked for success with them, though my ability for subtle sight continues to grow, as does my ability for healing through visualization of body energy. Nothing I cultivate. Like I said it just happens. I wouldn't be at all surprised if others found that a particular sidhi jumped out at them so to speak. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@... wrote: Yo Lawson I wouldn't take MMY's words seriously. You may have some beliefs regarding what UC and full liberation is and I don't agree with it. TM is clearly a path of yoga with milestones, description and categories of enlightenment. The fact that I haven't heard one TM'er experience match all these shows that perhaps there's another reason why MMY would have gone to so much trouble to state all these. IMO he might have prescribed these understanding the Rajasic, goal oriented nature of the human mind. Other than a Jim here or a Rory there the literal interpretation of this has resulted in widespread prevalence of what I call pimps(intellectuals) among TM'ers totally fascinated with the whore (intellect). I don't think self-knowledge has anything to do with Siddhis, sure there seem to be varying degrees of self-knowledge based upon the external manifestation of it. According to their predominant samkaras - some become Gurus, some debate with others, a lot just continue in their respective professions, some just fall out of the society and wander enjoying their bliss. In either case I think I agree that full liberation would not be possible until you drop the physical body. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@ wrote: Yo, William, don't take them too seriously. According to MMY, if you can't perform any and all of the sidhis (e.g. Yogic Flying) then you're not truly in Unity Consciousness. Now, for those who like to play semantic games with the above, I'll take it back a step: if, immediately prior to Full Liberation, you don't find yourself able to perform all the Sidhis to perfection during sutra practice during your participation in the TM/TM-SIdhis program, then you are probably not fully enlightened, no matter what your perceptions suggest. MMY himself once hinted that that was one of the reasons why he realized the world wasn't quite how it should be when he was off on his own, meditating after his guru dev died: he wasn't doing/experiencing some of the stuff that was predicted for someone in his apparent state of consciousness and finally concluded that the current state of the world's consciousness wouldn't support full enlightenment, and eventually set out to remedy the situation. L.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
Dr. Parkinson, Welcome to FFL. I've been enjoying your exchanges with our fellow posters immensely. Lately, I've been trying to communicate in moving images but I'm afraid I'll never match the lyrical magic or sattva of our talented Yifu. While reading one of your posts I found myself reaching for my Webster's and remembered the last time I reached out like that. I was wondering if you've recently been to Canada or Africa? From: William Parkinson ameradi...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 4:22:34 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?) Thank you so much Ravi for allowing me a peek into your experiences. When I say 'questionable utility' what I mean is this. In the Eastern tradition, as I understand it, the goal of Enlightenment is to free one from karmic bondage; that is to say, to end the endless cycle of birth, death, and rebirth (the 'transmigration of the soul'). Enlightenment is always viewed as something that dispels ignorance. And what is this ignorance? Far more often than not it is the idea that dualism is illusory. But what if there is no such thing as reincarnation (as I believe)? What good does the Enlightenment do then? And what if the phenomenological approach to religion is the worst possible way to proceed to truth? I should really take the time to write of a compelling example of this error in religion using the example if the Mormon faith. In the light of evidence from mitochondrial DNA we can now say that Joseph Smith, and everything he taught, was completely false (there were other lines of compelling evidence that converge on the same conclusion). And yet Mormons, because of a phenomenon called the 'burning bosom,' nevertheless, believe wholeheartedly that it is still true. When I get the time I think I will write a post on this. Hopefully it will be edifying to everyone on the forum. In any event, I'm not sure I see how it is useful to become enlightened, unless it makes a person a better human being; viz. becoming a more loving person. Of course, this is only my personal belief. I would be fascinated to hear anything you can tell me about what value this period in your life has had for you. I am always endlessly fascinated by the religious convictions and scruples of people no matter what the religious tradition. You are one of the few people I have ever encountered who can say that they entered into a state of consciousness that was at least close to, if not entirely synonymous with, the classical definition of enlightenment. It would be a welcome exercise to me personally if you could tell me just a little bit about why you feel it was salutary for you. In any event, I thank you deeply Ravi for sharing your experiences with me. I hope to hear more from you soon! Cheers Bill From: Ravi Yogi raviy...@att.net To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 4:00 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?) Did you and Ravi (are you there?) engage in this more dedicated practice of TM? No like I said I didn't engage in any advanced practices. IME the result does not seem to be proportional to the effort and like ancient scriptures point out the other factors seems to be grace, the existing attachments and one's innate tendencies. Meditation, at least for the purposes of my goal, is something that is done because it is helpful; not because it develops long-term brain changes of questionable utility I can vouch for long term brain changes, I would definitely disagree with the questionable utility part. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote: Thank you so much for getting back to me so quickly! I deeply appreciate the  warm welcome.  Honestly, however, you have truly baffled me, because your own experience goes far beyond so-called cosmic consciousness. Up until now I thought the only two people that had reached what TM jargon calls UC was Robin C. and Ravi. And now it seems you reached at too! An interesting question as a follow-up might be this: if a person simply follows the 20 minutes-twice a day formulation, will they ever go beyond simple cosmic consciousness?  I wonder if those of you who have reached GC and UC did so because of advanced meditation techniques, many hours of so-called 'rounding;' not to mention many more hours of meditation throughout the week. I think of Clint Eastwood who has been doing TM for four years. Seemingly he has done it in the simple 20 minute-twice a day fashion. Did you and Ravi (are you there?)  engage in this more dedicated practice of TM? I must also say that your post has caused me some degree of disquiet. Meditation, at least for the purposes of my goal, is something that is done because it is helpful; not because it
[FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
Dear Bill - thanks for your clarifications. In any event, I'm not sure I see how it is useful to become enlightened, unless it makes a person a better human being; viz. becoming a more loving person. It would be a welcome exercise to me personally if you could tell me just a little bit about why you feel it was salutary for you. I think these are very good questions and I will get back to you once I have more time. In the meantime I would definitely be interested in Jim, Rory, Xeno and other's views as well. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote: Thank you so much Ravi for allowing me a peek into your experiences. When I say 'questionable utility' what I mean is this. In the Eastern tradition, as I understand it, the goal of Enlightenment is to  free one from karmic bondage; that is to say, to end the endless cycle of birth, death, and rebirth (the 'transmigration of the soul'). Enlightenment is always viewed as something that dispels ignorance. And what is this ignorance? Far more often than not it is the idea that dualism is illusory. But what if there is no such thing as reincarnation (as I believe)? What good does the Enlightenment do then? And what if the phenomenological approach to religion is the worst possible way to proceed to truth? I should really take the time to write of a compelling example of this error in religion using the example if the Mormon faith. In the light of evidence from mitochondrial DNA we can now say that Joseph Smith, and everything he taught, was completely false (there were other lines of compelling evidence that converge on the same conclusion). And yet Mormons, because of a phenomenon called the 'burning bosom,' nevertheless, believe wholeheartedly that it is still true. When I get the time I think I will write a post on this. Hopefully it will be edifying to everyone on the forum.  In any event, I'm not sure I see how it is useful to become enlightened, unless it makes a person a better human being; viz. becoming a more loving person. Of course, this is only my personal belief.  I would be fascinated to hear anything you can tell me about what value this period in your life has had for you. I am always endlessly fascinated by the religious convictions and scruples of people no matter what the religious tradition. You are one of the few people I have ever encountered who can say that they entered into a state of consciousness that was at least close to, if not entirely synonymous with, the classical definition of enlightenment.  It would be a welcome exercise to me personally if you could tell me just a little bit about why you feel it was salutary for you. In any event, I thank you deeply Ravi for sharing your experiences with me. I hope to hear more from you soon! Cheers Bill
[FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
Bill, Rather than coddling your silence, you may want to try destroying it instead. :-) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote: Thx so much XA. What you describe is the one thing I fear the most. I have had insomnia for my entire adult life and when I went to a sleep lab way back in 1982 (at U.C.Irvine in California) I was told I had alpha intrusion.' Obviously I was having trouble getting out of the restful state of alpha and into the drowsy theta state and then into the sleeping delta. So, when the article in Sleep showed that these TM meditators where producing alpha waves, while concomitantly showing delta waves, that turned me off. I quit doing TM long ago because of it. That was 11 years ago. But around 5 months ago now I started TM again and it was not too long, perhaps 10 weeks later, I could tell that CC was starting to develop. That silent inner layer, which was there all the time when I was not too mentally active (so, watching TV I could 'feel' it), was growing and I worry about the effects on sleep. Â Your story is, for me, a real cautionary tale to be sure. I am deeply grateful to you for sharing it with me. Â Â I guess the only good thing to take way for all of this was that the CC experience did go away in time. If I may ask one question XA: How much were you meditating? Were you going far beyond the typical twice-per-day, Â 20 minute program? Were you using advanced techniques? Were you going to all those residence courses to undergo 'rounding'? Clint Eastwood has been meditating for 40 years and I assume he is doing TM 'lite,' as I am. Â He seems none the worse for wear, so to speak. Cheers Bill From: Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@... To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 1:45 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?) Â With regards to William Parkinson, Ravi Yogi, and Lawson --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@ wrote: Thank you so much for sharing with me what happened to you Ravi. I did not know that you are using something other than TM. The only reason why I practice TM is because having tried other meditations, TM, for better or worse, seems to allow me to transcend in the quickest manner I have ever experienced. It happened in the first day or two, and that was something I can't say for any other form of meditation I tried, including classical concentration (which I started when I was perhaps 12 years old following the guidelines in a book by Richard Hittleman on Yoga), or vipanassana, or meditating on my breath while using a simple form of pranayama. For me TM is simply an expedient tool-- I have no desire to reach GC or UG and right now I'm just trying to figure out if I should even allowed to go so far as CC 24/7. Frankly this entire notion of having so-called Cosmic Consciousness, this awareness of a silent inner level, during sleep is something that concerns me. I wonder if it will make sleep far more difficult. And I also worry about what I just read concerning what seems to be long-lasting, if not permanent changes to either neurophysiology or even neuroanatomy. Btw, what form of meditation were you practicing? And also, I love the comment by your Guru. That was a very perceptive comment!! Cheers Bill From: Ravi Yogi raviyogi@ To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 10:55 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?) Dear Bill, Not being familiar with TM, I can just share my experiences. In my experience not being aware during deep sleep state doesn't seem to hinder bliss and perfect awareness during the wakeful state. Most of the times I sleep like a log, if I'm too high I might feel like I'm aware of my sleep state but this happens rarely. However during a period of 3 months in 09 10, during this period that I refer to as the descension of divine I hardly slept and had full awareness even while asleep. But I believe this to be a side effect of the body trying to cope with energy than any natural state. My body treated this energy as an invasion and felt the need to be awake 24 hours a day to deal with this. So based on my experience it was just an interim state, after having integrated the energy and rising up higher in consciousness, so to speak I just sleep. TM is a path like many others, like my Guru would say once you reach the shore you leave the boat behind, you wouldn't carry it on your head. For me the further shore occasionally seems closer than at other times, but invariably a cleansing flood washes the boat back down stream, and the further shore seems at least as far away as ever, if not more. IOW, I haven't found an opportunity to carry the boat
[FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
Initially it gave me complete freedom, which has continued to grow and grow, resulting in a huge reduction in anxiety and fear. Once I got those two devils out of the way through love, insight and acceptance, many life improvements become apparent - greater creativity, clearer thinking, a sense of oneness with everything, both the divinely good and hellishly bad and everything in between, a greater sense of trust and confidence, the deep innocent sleep of a baby, the structuring of a life of enjoyment and continuous learning, the ability to open my heart completely and forcefully, the ability to find just about anything delightfully absurd and humorous, great relationships nearly everywhere, a sense of peace and freedom from persistent neediness, absence of a fear of death, insight into subtle cosmic forces like sidhis. Everything is just a fuck of a lot better in every way. Like any human being I have had a deep desire for lasting fulfillment for my life. This is not to be confused by some meditation induced drug like high, but rather even under the most challenging circumstances I can see what is going on and deal with it directly, learn from it and continue on. Life is engaging and real and tactile and immediate and successful vs. the isolated arm's length experience of it I often had in the past. I love being awake 24 hours a day. I still sleep but am aware of it naturally. The only difference is that during sleep, time speeds by very quickly due to the absence of sensory differentiation. All of this adds up to an improvement in living and dying which is way, way more than the sum of its parts. Thanks for the invitation to share Ravi. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@... wrote: Dear Bill - thanks for your clarifications. In any event, I'm not sure I see how it is useful to become enlightened, unless it makes a person a better human being; viz. becoming a more loving person. It would be a welcome exercise to me personally if you could tell me just a little bit about why you feel it was salutary for you. I think these are very good questions and I will get back to you once I have more time. In the meantime I would definitely be interested in Jim, Rory, Xeno and other's views as well. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@ wrote: Thank you so much Ravi for allowing me a peek into your experiences. When I say 'questionable utility' what I mean is this. In the Eastern tradition, as I understand it, the goal of Enlightenment is to  free one from karmic bondage; that is to say, to end the endless cycle of birth, death, and rebirth (the 'transmigration of the soul'). Enlightenment is always viewed as something that dispels ignorance. And what is this ignorance? Far more often than not it is the idea that dualism is illusory. But what if there is no such thing as reincarnation (as I believe)? What good does the Enlightenment do then? And what if the phenomenological approach to religion is the worst possible way to proceed to truth? I should really take the time to write of a compelling example of this error in religion using the example if the Mormon faith. In the light of evidence from mitochondrial DNA we can now say that Joseph Smith, and everything he taught, was completely false (there were other lines of compelling evidence that converge on the same conclusion). And yet Mormons, because of a phenomenon called the 'burning bosom,' nevertheless, believe wholeheartedly that it is still true. When I get the time I think I will write a post on this. Hopefully it will be edifying to everyone on the forum.  In any event, I'm not sure I see how it is useful to become enlightened, unless it makes a person a better human being; viz. becoming a more loving person. Of course, this is only my personal belief.  I would be fascinated to hear anything you can tell me about what value this period in your life has had for you. I am always endlessly fascinated by the religious convictions and scruples of people no matter what the religious tradition. You are one of the few people I have ever encountered who can say that they entered into a state of consciousness that was at least close to, if not entirely synonymous with, the classical definition of enlightenment.  It would be a welcome exercise to me personally if you could tell me just a little bit about why you feel it was salutary for you. In any event, I thank you deeply Ravi for sharing your experiences with me. I hope to hear more from you soon! Cheers Bill
