[t13] Hybrid disk - what a bad idea

reliable and much more functional. Putting NV cache in a drive is really stupid - it costs more and makes drive less reliable. Its just like the stupid AV commands - it makes a drive more complex and less reliable just to avoid putting some extra memory in the DVR. -- Hale Landis -- [EMAIL

Re: [t13] What's the difference of eSATA Hard drive and normal SATA-II hard drive?

and connectors so that there are no external ports that can be used by modern external storage devices. :) Hale -- ++ Hale Landis ++ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ++

Re: [t13] What's the difference of eSATA Hard drive and normal SATA-II hard drive?

external/portable storage device into any system and have access to my software and my data. And please don't tell me that I should expect to use these stupid internet application sites to store/access my data. But none of this has anything to do with T13 or SATA-IO, does it? Hale -- ++ Hale

RE: [t13] What's the difference of eSATA Hard drive and normal SATA-II hard drive?

, a network MAC address, etc. If it was licensed to a person then it should not matter what platform the person runs the s/w on - desktop, notebook, PDA, cell phone, etc, and it should not matter if the s/w is moved from one platform to another during the life time of the license. -- Hale Landis -- [EMAIL

RE: [t13] What's the difference of eSATA Hard drive and normal SATA-II hard drive?

useful. Why is an external SATA (aka eSATA?) any different than an external USB or 1394 hard disk drive? -- Hale Landis -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: [t13] READ VERIFY SECTOR(S) (EXT) and NV cache command set

that are in the NV cache? Will those sectors also be updated on the media? 3) Will drives have a jumper that will enable/disable this extreme threat to data integrity? Hale -- Hale Landis -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]

[t13] ACS 3C - section 8 and annex C

This message is from the T13 list server. Please note that the term key sector is used in annex C but it is not defined in section 8. And as someone else here noted: Isn't 'Section 8' military lingo for a discharge due to insanity??? Hale -- Hale Landis -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]

[t13] Status register 8 bits or 16 bites

This message is from the T13 list server. I see that in some normal output and error output tables in ATA-8, the Status register seems to have bits 15:8. Has the Status register been expaned to have an additional 8 bits (bits 15:8) that are currently reserved? Hale -- Hale Landis -- [EMAIL

RE: [t13] Status register 8 bits or 16 bites

are they? How are the accessed? Do they exist for PATA? Do they exist for SATA? Are they part of a 'feature'? Hale -- Hale Landis -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]

[t13] ACS section 8

?) of the ATA registers). * Thoughout 8.x it seems that the term segment access was not changed to write same? -- Hale Landis -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [t13] For ATA/ATAPI-6, shall the initial PIO mode be 0, 1, or 2 as powered-up?

present can support anything higher than PIO mode 2). Hale -- ++ Hale Landis ++ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ++

Re: [t13] Shall the ATA device interrupt for each DRQ block transferredeven though nIEN bit of the Device Control register is 1?

not being useful any more for SATA. Hale -- Hale Landis -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [t13] Word 125 ATAPI byte count=0 behavior

in the PACKET PIO command protocol with sigificant backward compatibility problems for hosts that use PIO data transfers. Of course we all understand that the BCL and BC are not used when PACKET commands use DMA for data transfer... right? Hale -- ++ Hale Landis ++ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ++

Re: [t13] Is DMA READ command aborted or DD[15:0] bus used for data transferwhen the ATA device receives the DMA READ command with CFA 8-bit transfermode enabled?

was in 8-bit PIO data transfer mode. It is unlikely that you will find any ATA devices (other than CF devices) that implement 8-bit PIO data transfers. Hale -- Hale Landis -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [t13] Which commands support 8-bit data transfer for ATA/ATAPI-6

of n*256 reads or writes when not in 8-bit mode). b) ALL DMA transfers (MultiWord DMA or UltraDMA) are done in 16-bit mode using DD15:0 (even when PIO transfers are done in 8-bit mode). See the CF specification available at www.compactflash.org. Hale -- ++ Hale Landis ++ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ++

Re: [t13] Shall really I/O bit be set to one for the normal outputs of bus release condition for READ DMA QUEUED EXT comman in clause 8.28.5.2 on page 175 of ATA/ATAPI-6?

correction or confirmation? Thank you! See the READ/WRITE DMA QUEUED commands - except for the difference of LBA28 or LBA48 the commands are the same as READ/WRITE DMA QUEUED EXT. Hale -- ++ Hale Landis ++ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ++

Re: [t13] The DRQ in normal outputs of data transmission condition for READ/WRITE DMA QUEUED EXT command shall be one or zero?

, again the READ (and WRITE) DMA QUEUED EXT command descriptions have a number of incorrect statements. Again use the R/W DMA QUEUED command descriptions (in both ATA/ATAPI-6 and ATA/ATAPI-7). Hale -- ++ Hale Landis ++ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ++

RE: [t13] ATA8-ACS NOP proposals

commands. Also see the NOP command description. === end History of NOP There IS mention of support for CFA where the DATA register is only 8-bits That is a different issue and unrelated and/or not related to the NOP command. -- Hale Landis -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [t13] SATA PIO data-out with Data FIS error

. Hale -- ++ Hale Landis ++ www.ata-atapi.com ++

[t13] question about a data recovery product

simple and easy procedures to replace the drive's firmware or simple and easy access to the drive's internal data (like the zone and spare tables)? -- ++ Hale Landis ++ www.ata-atapi.com ++

Re: [t13] ATA-8 APT Teleconference

thing that needs to be added. Hale -- ++ Hale Landis ++ www.ata-atapi.com ++

Re: [t13] ATA-8 APT Teleconference

SATA is not an thing that is defined by an open standards process. Hale -- ++ Hale Landis ++ www.ata-atapi.com ++

Re: [t13] ATA-8 APT Teleconference

order at any time by host or device? If that is so then why is there an Annex J in ATA/ATAPI-7? Hale -- ++ Hale Landis ++ www.ata-atapi.com ++

Re: [t13] ATA-8 APT Teleconference

devices. Hosts and devics using SATA to transport random and 'non-standard' packets should also not use the ATA name). -- ++ Hale Landis ++ www.ata-atapi.com ++

Re: [t13] ATA-8 APT Teleconference

attempt to 'force' the ATAPI people out of T13 (and SATAIO?) and make them move to other interfaces (like USB) by restricting what they can implement? Hale -- ++ Hale Landis ++ www.ata-atapi.com ++

Re: [t13] ATA-8 APT Teleconference

. This doesn't sound like a big deal to me. Unless there is something hidden in the SATA command protocols that prohibits ATAPI NCQ (and if so, how did that happen?). Hale -- ++ Hale Landis ++ www.ata-atapi.com ++

Re: [t13] ATA-8 APT Teleconference

of this sort of uncoordinated information). Hale -- ++ Hale Landis ++ www.ata-atapi.com ++

[t13] a comment on some old command codes

Unload feature should I expect the drive will also support the Unload feature when the 95H IDLE IMMEDIATE command code is used? Private or public responses welcome. Hale -- ++ Hale Landis ++ www.ata-atapi.com ++

Re: [t13] ATA8-ACS IDENTIFY DEVICE question

take appropriate action). Hale -- ++ Hale Landis ++ www.ata-atapi.com ++

Re: [t13] pio data out protocol and INTRQ

blocks (For PACKET PIO the number of interrupts is also the number of DRQ data blocks [note: the command packet is not a data block]). Hale -- ++ Hale Landis ++ www.ata-atapi.com ++

[t13] erasing a disk

to erase all the data on a disk - most don't use the SECURITY ERASE command. Here is a link to one of these programs- DBAN - http://dban.sourceforge.net/ At the bottom of this page there is a good set of links to similar products. Parts of the DBAN FAQ is interesting too. Hale -- ++ Hale

Re: [t13] Read Look Ahead

since write cache is used for the corresponding write cache feature. Hale -- ++ Hale Landis ++ www.ata-atapi.com ++

Re: [t13] Read Look Ahead

possible to disable the read look ahead part of some more complex read caching algorithm? Hale -- ++ Hale Landis ++ www.ata-atapi.com ++

Re: [t13] Read Look Ahead

designed data caching algorithm. I think if you really intend that a disk drive separate read ahead from a more robust read caching algorithm then you need to have a serious conversation with some of the people that design and implement these algorithms in disk drives. Hale -- ++ Hale Landis

Re: [t13] Read Look Ahead

supports read cache there is no way to disable that feature. So even if you disabled read look ahead that would not force unit access. Hale -- ++ Hale Landis ++ www.ata-atapi.com ++

Re: [t13] Read Look Ahead

probably be very ineffective is used in this manner. Users are far more likely to want to disable read-ahead, than to disable read caching. Users? Explain please... Application program? File system? I/O driver? Hale -- ++ Hale Landis ++ www.ata-atapi.com ++

Re: [t13] Read Look Ahead

depends on how clever the io scheduler is. Absolutely true (note that he said I/O SCHEDULER). Hale -- ++ Hale Landis ++ www.ata-atapi.com ++

RE: [t13] Read Look Ahead

no matter what the actual cache implementation is. Hale *** Hale Landis *** www.ata-atapi.com ***

Re: [t13] PATA Corrections, Clarifications, or Errors

happened with SATA? Resolve this problem by admitting that SATA is not ATA. Leave PATA alone. Let SATA move forward on its own. Stop corrupting the description of PATA with things from SATA. Hale -- ++ Hale Landis ++ www.ata-atapi.com ++

Re: [t13] Read Look Ahead

if the more correct name should be Enable/Disable Read Cache? Hale *** Hale Landis *** www.ata-atapi.com ***

Re: [t13] Automatic ATA device / host mode sync

-- ++ Hale Landis ++ www.ata-atapi.com ++

Re: [t13] Posted new proposal

and protect data. The goal is to extend the lifetime of a disk drive and protect data before a drive becomes inaccessible. What happened to SMART? Hale -- ++ Hale Landis ++ www.ata-atapi.com ++

Re: [t13] PACKET command protocol issue.

to publish the parallel ATA standards (why?) or disband T13. Or maybe T13 should take a new direction and publish only standards for how interface emulations and conversions operate? Hale -- ++ Hale Landis ++ www.ata-atapi.com ++

Re: [t13] PACKET command protocol issue.

/ATAPI-7 because the only valid description of serial ATA comes from the SATA secret society under NDA. ATA/ATAPI-7 should not be considered a valid description of serial ATA. -- ++ Hale Landis ++ www.ata-atapi.com ++

Re: [t13] WRITE LONG, SCT Write Long, and WRITE WRONG EXT

the host can store metadata associated with each sector on the disk - expand the basic sector size by 32 or 64 bytes for the metadata and define new commands to access the metadata. (This would probebly be of more value to more people than that stupid NV cache thing.) Hale -- ++ Hale Landis

[t13] NV cache

- inside a disk drive must be the most cost ineffective way to do this. I'm curious... Did Intel reject the idea of adding this to a motherboard? Is that why this proposal is now at T13? Hale -- ++ Hale Landis ++ www.ata-atapi.com ++

Re: [t13] PACKET command protocol issue.

probably need one to figure out what is really going on. Hale -- ++ Hale Landis ++ www.ata-atapi.com ++

Re: [t13] PACKET command protocol issue.

talk about it in public. Hale -- ++ Hale Landis ++ www.ata-atapi.com ++

[t13] HPA ID word 85 bit 10

-- ++ Hale Landis ++ www.ata-atapi.com ++

Re: [t13] Results of T13/SATA-IO Doc Plan Proposal Ad Hoc Call

societies. Why continue this misrepresentation of how the ATA standards are developed? Hale -- ++ Hale Landis ++ www.ata-atapi.com ++

Re: [t13] e05120r1 Logical Sector Alignment

integrity problem. Hale -- ++ Hale Landis ++ www.ata-atapi.com ++

Re: [t13] e05120r1 Logical Sector Alignment

is not changeable in the field So, a DCO to change it would be prohibited. There would be no data integrity issue due to changing the alignment. We all know this will become a DCO changeable value. Hale -- ++ Hale Landis ++ www.ata-atapi.com ++

[t13] id words 82 and 85 bit 10

. ??? At the minimum the text description for this bit does not match the table description of this bit. Hale -- ++ Hale Landis ++ www.ata-atapi.com ++

Re: [t13] id words 82 and 85 bit 10

it to the same value as ID word 82 bit 10 (as implied by the text description)? Note that ID word 85 bit 10 is not described in the general description of the HPA feature in section 6.x of the document. Hale -- ++ Hale Landis ++ www.ata-atapi.com ++

Re: [t13] Back to the main problem. Please read

of ATA without addressing these problems is unacceptable.] Hale -- ++ Hale Landis ++ www.ata-atapi.com ++

Re: [t13] Back to the main problem. Please read

This message is from the T13 list server. Thomas Jansen wrote: This message is from the T13 list server. Not as far as I understand the standard. The drive will only accept the Security Erase command when either the master or user password is supplied. Thomas is correct. -- ++ Hale Landis

Re: [t13] new posting

does that serve? -- ++ Hale Landis ++ www.ata-atapi.com ++

Re: [t13] new posting

that there is a market for it. Hale -- ++ Hale Landis ++ www.ata-atapi.com ++

Re: [t13] ERR/DRQ Technical Report

command protocol and rules, but that is no reason to add such a confusing SET FEATURES subcommand to the standard. Hale *** Hale Landis *** www.ata-atapi.com ***

Re: [t13] ERR/DRQ Technical Report

... so... BSY=0 DRQ=1 ERR=1 is not a legal status for a device, even in ATA/ATAPI-4. Hale *** Hale Landis *** www.ata-atapi.com ***

Re: [t13] ERR/DRQ Technical Report

(especially random and undetected errors that frequently result in data corruption). Maybe it is time for T13 to give up and go away and let some other organization take over?] Hale *** Hale Landis *** www.ata-atapi.com ***

Re: [t13] SRST and ATAPI

perform the SRST protocol - just think of the mess that would happen if the other device on the PATA interface was an ATA device that did the SRST while the ATAPI device did not do the SRST. Hale *** Hale Landis *** www.ata-atapi.com ***

[t13] E05104R0 - more accurate and more complete text

data? c) If these new words are defined then why not define bits for each of the features that exist (such as 8-bit data transfer, read cache, etc)? Hale *** Hale Landis *** www.ata-atapi.com ***

[t13] SATA AHCI ATAPI TCQ (NCQ?)

another bit in the PACKET Features register) to say use new style TCQ (NCQ?)? Does this first require action/approval of the SATA secret society before T13 can discuss it? Hale -- ++ Hale Landis ++ www.ata-atapi.com ++

Re: [t13] ATAPI Overlap and Queuing

(technically, all this old O/Q stuff should be made obsolete). BTW... Where are the new queuing commands currently documented? Still in a secret society doc or some doc that is public? Hale -- ++ Hale Landis ++ www.ata-atapi.com ++

RE: [t13] ATAPI Overlap and Queuing

for this (new version of the PACKET command, or new options of the PACKET command)? Is there a definition of new style queuing (NCQ?) for SATA ATAPI? If not, why not? Hale *** Hale Landis *** www.ata-atapi.com ***

[t13] SATA expert need to explain this problem

this that make people say SATA is unreliable. This is bad... this is really bad. BTW the system and the two drives have been running with no errors for 3 days since this problem happened and then magically disappeared. Hale -- ++ Hale Landis ++ www.ata-atapi.com ++

Re: [t13] ATA-7 Conflict: Download Microcode for ATAPI drives

*** Hale Landis *** www.ata-atapi.com ***

Re: [t13] Clarification on Reset Signature (more)

This message is from the T13 list server. In clause 5.15 Signature and persistence and the sub-clauses, the value in the Device register should be changed... In 5.15.1 00h should be changed to y0y0b (where y is obsolete) In 5.15.2 000xb should be changed to y0yxb (where y

[t13] Proposal to update description of BSY/INTRQ

of the clase: A device shall not enter the interupt pending state when the device status has the BSY bit set to one. Hale -- ++ Hale Landis ++ www.ata-atapi.com ++

Re: [t13] PATA BSY DRQ ERR descriptions from ATA/ATAPI-7

and will remain set to 1 until the next command or a reset is issued. So after all the text you put down you appear to be concerned about the validity of BSY=0 DRQ=1 and ERR=1? Please help us focus here. Does this help? Hale -- ++ Hale Landis ++ www.ata-atapi.com ++

Re: [t13] BSY and INTRQ at end of command

interrupt processing overhead - by the time the x86 reads the Status register it has BSY=0. Hale -- ++ Hale Landis ++ www.ata-atapi.com ++

RE: [t13] PATA BSY DRQ ERR descriptions from ATA/ATAPI-7

): NOTE - The BSY bit may be set to one and then cleared to zero so quickly, that host detection of the BSY bit being set to one is not certain. What more needs to be said? Hale *** Hale Landis *** www.ata-atapi.com ***

[t13] Followup: BSY=0 DRQ=1 ERR=1

to see the change in the ERR bit value. Hale -- ++ Hale Landis ++ www.ata-atapi.com ++

Re: [t13] e04155r0 - DRQ=0 When ERR=1 Feature

are only talking about PATA. SATA is a different interface that does not conform to some of the most basic PATA rules and traditions - SATA is mis-named - it really isn't ATA and it should not be documented in the same standard with PATA - ATA/ATAPI-7 is a major %*$% by T13. Hale *** Hale Landis

Re: [t13] e04155r0 - DRQ=0 When ERR=1 Feature

don't care what you do with SATA)? Hale -- ++ Hale Landis ++ www.ata-atapi.com ++

Re: [t13] e04155r0 - DRQ=0 When ERR=1 Feature

. ATAPI devices are the biggest offenders here. This would be a complete violation of the PATA PACKET command protocol. Hale -- ++ Hale Landis ++ www.ata-atapi.com ++

Re: [t13] e04155r0 - DRQ=0 When ERR=1 Feature

-- ++ Hale Landis ++ www.ata-atapi.com ++

Re: [t13] e04155r0 - DRQ=0 When ERR=1 Feature

to CAM ATA, ATA-1, even SFF-8020). I do not understand why ATAPI device designers and manufacturers are allow to get away with this crap - especially after 8+ years. Hale -- ++ Hale Landis ++ www.ata-atapi.com ++

Re: [t13] e04155r0 - DRQ=0 When ERR=1 Feature

This message is from the T13 list server. Gary Laatsch wrote: This message is from the T13 list server. I guess you have seen what I have seen and you will probably get an explanation from Hale on how ATA really works (from the spec side), but some of us have seen the real world where devices

Re: [t13] e04155r0 - DRQ=0 When ERR=1 Feature

This message is from the T13 list server. Gary Laatsch wrote: HUH, SAY WHAT? youself. If you are tired of explaining to us how ATA works, then stop. Of course, you would probably never post anything again. I love poeple who rather than send a private email asking for clarification try to

Re: [t13] e04155r0 - DRQ=0 When ERR=1 Feature

this helps. Hale -- ++ Hale Landis ++ www.ata-atapi.com ++

Re: [t13] Doubts regarding DMA Transfer Protocol

this time the host shall not change the state of the CSx- and DAx signals. It is true that the host shall not assert DMACK- until after it sees DMARQ asserted and that when it asserts DMACK- it shall also deassert the CSx- signals. Hale *** Hale Landis *** www.ata-atapi.com ***

RE: [t13] Could Model Number field start with manufacturer ID?

how this wouldn't already be unique... To date I have never seen an ATAPI CD/DVD device that has a serial number. Hale *** Hale Landis *** www.ata-atapi.com ***

Re: [t13] Could Model Number field start with manufacturer ID?

noticed a serial number returned in the SCSI INQUIRY data either. Hale *** Hale Landis *** www.ata-atapi.com ***

Re: [t13] RE: R/W SECTORS/MULTIPLE description

be surprised how many people don't understand this relationship between READ/WRITE SECTORS and READ/WRITE MULTIPLE.) Hale *** Hale Landis *** www.ata-atapi.com ***

Re: [t13] ATA spec issue with Execute Device Diagnostics command

host side state diagrams. Hale *** Hale Landis *** www.ata-atapi.com ***

RE: [t13] ATAPI Command Overlap and Queuing

messing it up in ATA/ATAPI-7, why continue messing it up in whatever comes next? T13 should let parallel ATA end with ATA/ATAPI-6, withdraw the ATA/ATAPI-7 parallel ATA mess, and move on to whatever is the new, non-parallel thing. Hale *** Hale Landis *** www.ata-atapi.com ***

Re: [t13] Who Should Drive DD[15:8] during register reads ?

- some hosts pull it high, some hosts pull it low - some hosts are level triggered and some are edge triggered - none of this effects how the ATA interface operates - these are just internal host design issues. Hale *** Hale Landis *** www.ata-atapi.com ***

Re: [t13] Who Should Drive DD[15:8] during register reads ?

tranfer command, the device must have status of BSY=0 DRQ=1 and the device must NOT be in 8-bit PIO data transfer mode (see the SET FEATURES FR=01H and FR=81H commands). Hale *** Hale Landis *** www.ata-atapi.com ***

[t13] Shorty's

of the Mississippi river (Thursdays and Friday are babyback ribs), Doug and Glenda Neblett are retiring and have sold the property to the adjacent Subaru dealership. Hale *** Hale Landis *** www.ata-atapi.com ***

Re: [t13] Web site

lookup - not a failure of the browser to understand and display the data. Hale *** Hale Landis *** www.ata-atapi.com ***

Re: [t13] Feature Negotiation policy question

). Hale *** Hale Landis *** www.ata-atapi.com ***

[t13] i wonder what Jim is trying to say?

This message is from the T13 list server. I wonder what Jim Hatfield is trying to say that is so bad it gets blocked a spam or a virus? :) Hale *** Hale Landis *** www.ata-atapi.com ***

Re: [t13] Data block size in Ultra DMA burst ?

.5.3.2 - there is a recommendation that a burst should not be more than 131072 bytes. Hale *** Hale Landis *** www.ata-atapi.com ***

RE: [t13] How to detect whether a host adapter complies with 1510 D

is ((BAR40xfffeH)+8) 4) If you must use interrupts, and you must if you want to use DMA commands, then have fun figuring that out (PIC/APIC?, what is IRQ to INT mapping? etc?). Enjoy. Hale *** Hale Landis *** www.ata-atapi.com ***

Re: [t13] apic mode fun why

there is to know about APIC and I hope to talk to him this week. But if anyone can point us (Pat, me, everyone) to any good doc on APIC and the BIOS support for APIC that would be really great! Hale *** Hale Landis *** www.ata-atapi.com ***

Re: [t13] o x3F6 DeviceControl default should be what

? In particular, devices which lack INTRQ can be read and written via DMA, except that errors then appear as timeouts, recovered by reset? See the T13 Host Controller standard, especially the descriptions of the controller's Start/Stop bit, the Active bit and the Interrupt bit. Hale *** Hale Landis

RE: [t13] apic mode fun why

ask the BIOS what is going on. Clearly an OS must determinet this stuff at startup. I just haven't had time but I figure if I find the Linux kernel startup stuff I might find out how they do it. Hale *** Hale Landis *** www.ata-atapi.com ***

Re: [t13] o x3F6 DeviceControl default should be what

tradition conflict with Win ME/ 9X here? Why do you ask? Do you see differences in these OS? Hale *** Hale Landis *** www.ata-atapi.com ***

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