Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps
* Maciej Mrozowski reave...@gmail.com schrieb: Hi, Apart from PDEPEND, one change needed as well in cups ebuilds: --with-pdftops pdftops needs to be replaced with --with-pdftops=/usr/bin/pdftops as otherwise it will fail during configure phase (giving absolute path disables autodetection) Hardcodig a pathname is not a good idea, IMHO. If ./configure really insists on autodetection when given name is not absolute, we should fix the source ;-p cups can use either poppler or ghostscript as pdf-to-ps filter, so given the fact that ghostscript is already a dep of cups, maybe --with-pdftops=gs could be used instead to avoid poppler dependency completely, but that's up to cups maintainers to determine whether it's safe/desired. hmm, does it _really_ need gs, even when pdftops is used ? maybe we could move out this whole issue to an wrapper script (configurable via eselect) ? cu -- - Enrico Weigelt== metux IT service - http://www.metux.de/ - Please visit the OpenSource QM Taskforce: http://wiki.metux.de/public/OpenSource_QM_Taskforce Patches / Fixes for a lot dozens of packages in dozens of versions: http://patches.metux.de/ -
Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps
* Nirbheek Chauhan nirbh...@gentoo.org schrieb: On Sat, Mar 6, 2010 at 5:02 PM, Ben de Groot yng...@gentoo.org wrote: Would it be possible to make cups a PDEPEND in gtk+ or is it really needed at compile time? cups is definitely needed at compile-time Does anyone know what exactly for ? Didnt have the time for an deeper investigation, but if an widget toolkit requires an printing service, something really strange is happening, IMHO ... ;-o cu -- - Enrico Weigelt== metux IT service - http://www.metux.de/ - Please visit the OpenSource QM Taskforce: http://wiki.metux.de/public/OpenSource_QM_Taskforce Patches / Fixes for a lot dozens of packages in dozens of versions: http://patches.metux.de/ -
Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps
On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 4:13 AM, Enrico Weigelt weig...@metux.de wrote: * Nirbheek Chauhan nirbh...@gentoo.org schrieb: On Sat, Mar 6, 2010 at 5:02 PM, Ben de Groot yng...@gentoo.org wrote: Would it be possible to make cups a PDEPEND in gtk+ or is it really needed at compile time? cups is definitely needed at compile-time Does anyone know what exactly for ? Didnt have the time for an deeper investigation, but if an widget toolkit requires an printing service, something really strange is happening, IMHO ... ;-o Download the gtk+ tarball and take a peek inside ./modules/printbackends/cups You'll find your answer there. -- ~Nirbheek Chauhan Gentoo GNOME+Mozilla Team
Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps
* Nirbheek Chauhan nirbh...@gentoo.org schrieb: If it turns out there is no easier way of properly fixing this, we may have to split poppler-utils out from poppler. ACK. Having separate packages for public libraries and utils which just happen to use these libs should be the default case. Not just because of circular deps - which, in 99.99% have absolutely _no_ technical reason, beside certain people's mental lazyness (at least that's what my about 20yrs swe experience shows up ;-o) - but also a matter of clean sw design. This should start at the source, so if upstream doesnt want to fix this, let's fork. (i'm hereby volunteering as maintainer). cu PS: please no we're not debian-flamewars ;-o -- - Enrico Weigelt== metux IT service - http://www.metux.de/ - Please visit the OpenSource QM Taskforce: http://wiki.metux.de/public/OpenSource_QM_Taskforce Patches / Fixes for a lot dozens of packages in dozens of versions: http://patches.metux.de/ -
Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps
* Ben de Groot yng...@gentoo.org schrieb: Or maybe the gtk+ maintainers want to split up their package... Actually, that would be a big step forward ... cu -- - Enrico Weigelt== metux IT service - http://www.metux.de/ - Please visit the OpenSource QM Taskforce: http://wiki.metux.de/public/OpenSource_QM_Taskforce Patches / Fixes for a lot dozens of packages in dozens of versions: http://patches.metux.de/ -
Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps
Why are you replying to a thread that has already been resolved? Please stop. On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 4:43 AM, Enrico Weigelt weig...@metux.de wrote: * Nirbheek Chauhan nirbh...@gentoo.org schrieb: If it turns out there is no easier way of properly fixing this, we may have to split poppler-utils out from poppler. ACK. Having separate packages for public libraries and utils which just happen to use these libs should be the default case. Not just because of circular deps - which, in 99.99% have absolutely _no_ technical reason, beside certain people's mental lazyness (at least that's what my about 20yrs swe experience shows up ;-o) - but also a matter of clean sw design. This should start at the source, so if upstream doesnt want to fix this, let's fork. (i'm hereby volunteering as maintainer). cu PS: please no we're not debian-flamewars ;-o -- - Enrico Weigelt == metux IT service - http://www.metux.de/ - Please visit the OpenSource QM Taskforce: http://wiki.metux.de/public/OpenSource_QM_Taskforce Patches / Fixes for a lot dozens of packages in dozens of versions: http://patches.metux.de/ - -- ~Nirbheek Chauhan Gentoo GNOME+Mozilla Team
Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps
* Nirbheek Chauhan nirbh...@gentoo.org schrieb: Does anyone know what exactly for ? Didnt have the time for an deeper investigation, but if an widget toolkit requires an printing service, something really strange is happening, IMHO ... ;-o Download the gtk+ tarball and take a peek inside ./modules/printbackends/cups You'll find your answer there. Yes, sometimes answers you'd even wouldn't like to know ;-o Folks, these gtk guys are on bad drugs (well, that's not sucha new enlightenment ;-o) ... a) gtk-printer backends are separate *shared* libraries, which are loaded somewhere at runtime. absolutely no need to ship and build them within the gtk+ tree b) the whole gtk-printer api might be a nice thing (even i just have a dozen of better solutions at the tip of my head ;-o), but I can't see any technical reasons for having that all within a widget toolkit, instead of a separate library. hmm, time for a fork ? ;-) cu -- - Enrico Weigelt== metux IT service - http://www.metux.de/ - Please visit the OpenSource QM Taskforce: http://wiki.metux.de/public/OpenSource_QM_Taskforce Patches / Fixes for a lot dozens of packages in dozens of versions: http://patches.metux.de/ -
Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps
On Sat, Mar 6, 2010 at 2:36 AM, Ben de Groot yng...@gentoo.org wrote: If no, I can split off utils from poppler - with CMake it's effortless. We just rejoined the split poppler into one package again. So if you are going to split it up again, you will have some explaining to do to our users. I would like to prevent splitting, and see if we can fix maybe the cups ebuild instead. Or maybe the gtk+ maintainers want to split up their package... I understand they like that sort of thing. These kind of pot-shots at Mart and the GNOME team are not welcome. Please desist from making such unproductive statements. This is precisely how flames begin, and this thread already has too much heated argument going on. -- ~Nirbheek Chauhan Gentoo GNOME+Mozilla Team
Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps
On Sat, Mar 6, 2010 at 2:36 AM, Ben de Groot yng...@gentoo.org wrote: On 5 March 2010 21:51, Maciej Mrozowski reave...@gmail.com wrote: If no, I can split off utils from poppler - with CMake it's effortless. We just rejoined the split poppler into one package again. So if you are going to split it up again, you will have some explaining to do to our users. I would like to prevent splitting, and see if we can fix maybe the cups ebuild instead. There's nothing wrong with back-tracking on decisions if they seem to cause problems. For instance, the mozilla herd has done a lot of flip-flop on the system/internal sqlite issue, and we explained the reasons to our users[1] and they agreed that it was useful, and a good decision. If it turns out there is no easier way of properly fixing this, we may have to split poppler-utils out from poppler. In this regard, I like how people like Maciej are spending efforts to solve the problem in new ways (PDEPEND, etc) 1. http://is.gd/9O3k2 -- ~Nirbheek Chauhan Gentoo GNOME+Mozilla Team
Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps
El vie, 05-03-2010 a las 22:06 +0100, Ben de Groot escribió: If no, I can split off utils from poppler - with CMake it's effortless. We just rejoined the split poppler into one package again. So if you are going to split it up again, you will have some explaining to do to our users. I would like to prevent splitting, and see if we can fix maybe the cups ebuild instead. Or maybe the gtk+ maintainers want to split up their package... I understand they like that sort of thing. Cheers, I think that it will be easy to explain users that we *need* to split poppler and poppler-utils to prevent circular dependencies. About splitting others... well, sometime ago I saw that cups is being split in Arch (having cups and libcups) when trying to investigate how to deal with avahi - gtk+ - cups - avahi circular dep problems (bug 222601), but I don't know if it could help with this case and how much work would it require :-/ Best regards signature.asc Description: Esta parte del mensaje está firmada digitalmente
Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps
On 6 March 2010 10:11, Nirbheek Chauhan nirbh...@gentoo.org wrote: On Sat, Mar 6, 2010 at 2:36 AM, Ben de Groot yng...@gentoo.org wrote: If no, I can split off utils from poppler - with CMake it's effortless. We just rejoined the split poppler into one package again. So if you are going to split it up again, you will have some explaining to do to our users. I would like to prevent splitting, and see if we can fix maybe the cups ebuild instead. Or maybe the gtk+ maintainers want to split up their package... I understand they like that sort of thing. These kind of pot-shots at Mart and the GNOME team are not welcome. Please desist from making such unproductive statements. This is precisely how flames begin, and this thread already has too much heated argument going on. I'm sorry, it's just rubbing me the wrong way that many people here assume that the best solution is to split poppler again, while not even looking at other possible solutions. But let's try to be more constructive instead. Would it be possible to make cups a PDEPEND in gtk+ or is it really needed at compile time? The same for cups: can we make poppler a PDEPEND? Maciej, did you get any further with looking into that? And how about splitting cups, as Pacho mentioned, so that gtk+ would only need the lib? Cheers, -- Ben de Groot Gentoo Linux developer (qt, media, lxde, desktop-misc) __
Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps
On 03/05/2010 08:06 AM, Ben de Groot wrote: On 5 March 2010 04:18, Graham Murraygra...@gmurray.org.uk wrote: 3. Include one or both of the packages in the stage tarball. None of the packages involved (gtk+, cups and poppler) is in any shape or form essential, so you will have a very hard time convincing people that this is the best solution. I tend to agree, but do consider this: 1. We wouldn't need to put all the packages in the dep list up to these packages in the tarball - you could just put one package in the tarball so that when emerge gets to this point it won't die. 2. You don't need to put that package in @system, so the first time the user cleans out their install it will be removed. For server users it will start out there but will eventually go away. It does increase the size of the tarball, which is of course undesirable. We might also need to modify the build scripts since I'm guessing those scripts look at @system to figure out what belongs in the tarball and these packages don't need to be there. I do agree that it isn't really an ideal solution, and probably not the first thing we should try... Rich
Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps
On 03/06/2010 04:24 AM, Richard Freeman wrote: On 03/05/2010 08:06 AM, Ben de Groot wrote: On 5 March 2010 04:18, Graham Murraygra...@gmurray.org.uk wrote: 3. Include one or both of the packages in the stage tarball. None of the packages involved (gtk+, cups and poppler) is in any shape or form essential, so you will have a very hard time convincing people that this is the best solution. I tend to agree, but do consider this: 1. We wouldn't need to put all the packages in the dep list up to these packages in the tarball - you could just put one package in the tarball so that when emerge gets to this point it won't die. 2. You don't need to put that package in @system, so the first time the user cleans out their install it will be removed. For server users it will start out there but will eventually go away. It does increase the size of the tarball, which is of course undesirable. We might also need to modify the build scripts since I'm guessing those scripts look at @system to figure out what belongs in the tarball and these packages don't need to be there. I do agree that it isn't really an ideal solution, and probably not the first thing we should try... Another possible solution would be distribute binary packages to users via PORTAGE_BINHOST. The user can simply set something like PORTAGE_BINHOST=http://tinderbox.dev.gentoo.org/default-linux/x86; in /etc/make.conf. Since DEPEND is ignored for binary packages, and circular RDEPEND doesn't block installation, the circular dependencies won't necessarily be an problem. The emerge --pretend output shows that emerge will go ahead and install those packages despite the circular RDEPEND: These are the packages that would be merged, in order: Calculating dependencies... done! [binary N] net-print/cups-1.3.11-r2 USE=X acl avahi dbus gnutls java jpeg ldap pam perl php png ppds python samba slp ssl tiff -kerberos -static -xinetd -zeroconf LINGUAS=en -de -es -et -fr -he -id -it -ja -pl -sv -zh_TW [0] [binary N] x11-libs/gtk+-2.18.6 USE=cups jpeg test tiff xinerama (-aqua) -debug -doc -jpeg2k -vim-syntax [0] [binary N] dev-python/pygtk-2.16.0-r1 USE=doc examples test [0] [binary N] gnome-extra/libgsf-1.14.17 USE=bzip2 gtk python -doc -gnome -thumbnail [0] [binary N] app-text/poppler-0.12.4 USE=abiword cairo jpeg lcms png qt4 utils xpdf-headers -cjk -debug -doc -exceptions -jpeg2k [0] -- Thanks, Zac
Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps
On Sat, Mar 6, 2010 at 5:02 PM, Ben de Groot yng...@gentoo.org wrote: Would it be possible to make cups a PDEPEND in gtk+ or is it really needed at compile time? cups is definitely needed at compile-time The same for cups: can we make poppler a PDEPEND? Maciej, did you get any further with looking into that? From what I can see in cups-1.3.11, pdftops is purely a runtime dependency. The configure flags enable code that doesn't need pdftops at compile-time. Infact, poppler[utils] is in pure RDEPEND to reflect that. So in total, I think it can be moved to PDEPEND. This change should be made to all ebuilds; not just the latest ~arch since people do install stable ;p -- ~Nirbheek Chauhan Gentoo GNOME+Mozilla Team
Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps
On Saturday 06 of March 2010 18:05:20 Nirbheek Chauhan wrote: On Sat, Mar 6, 2010 at 5:02 PM, Ben de Groot yng...@gentoo.org wrote: Would it be possible to make cups a PDEPEND in gtk+ or is it really needed at compile time? cups is definitely needed at compile-time The same for cups: can we make poppler a PDEPEND? Maciej, did you get any further with looking into that? From what I can see in cups-1.3.11, pdftops is purely a runtime dependency. The configure flags enable code that doesn't need pdftops at compile-time. Infact, poppler[utils] is in pure RDEPEND to reflect that. So in total, I think it can be moved to PDEPEND. Apart from PDEPEND, one change needed as well in cups ebuilds: --with-pdftops pdftops needs to be replaced with --with-pdftops=/usr/bin/pdftops as otherwise it will fail during configure phase (giving absolute path disables autodetection) cups can use either poppler or ghostscript as pdf-to-ps filter, so given the fact that ghostscript is already a dep of cups, maybe --with-pdftops=gs could be used instead to avoid poppler dependency completely, but that's up to cups maintainers to determine whether it's safe/desired. So it's all simple, all this fuzz was unnecessary. Btw, do we still have active printing herd? -- regards MM
Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps
On Sex, 2010-03-05 at 19:03 +0100, Dawid Węgliński wrote: On Friday 05 March 2010 17:12:23 Roy Bamford wrote: That's not a new install as per the handbook. Neither are you a new user as you have a premade make.conf and world file and some experience with Gentoo. Put yourself in the place of a brand new Gentoo user doing his/her first install. It needs to just work out of the box, one way or another, without forums posts or calls for help in #gentoo about circular dependences. That's not just cups - thats all circular dependencies. Brand new gentoo user goes throu handbook - reads set up USE variables in make.conf and does it according to his/her needs following use.*.desc. If gentoo was new to me i *would* enter cups as i use printers often at work. +1 Most people trying Gentoo already had some history with other Linux distros. So, I'm sure they will recognize the cups USE flag when they see it. Most everyone I know also have a printer (some with a pile of dust on it) so I think most of people will enable that USE flag anyway. -- Angelo Arrifano AKA MiKNiX Gentoo Embedded/OMAP850 Developer Linwizard Developer http://www.gentoo.org/~miknix http://miknix.homelinux.com
Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps
On 5 March 2010 04:18, Graham Murray gra...@gmurray.org.uk wrote: Is there not a third, maybe obvious, solution to circular dependencies on initial install? 3. Include one or both of the packages in the stage tarball. None of the packages involved (gtk+, cups and poppler) is in any shape or form essential, so you will have a very hard time convincing people that this is the best solution. Cheers, -- Ben de Groot Gentoo Linux developer (qt, media, lxde, desktop-misc) __
Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps
On 2010.03.04 02:17, Dale wrote: [snip] Let just think of it this way. I have to reinstall say from a dead hard drive. I have copies of my make.conf and world file. I install my new drive, download the tarball and unpack it. I copy over make.conf and world. Naturally cups will be enabled. Then I sync and start to update. Isn't that circular dependency still going to be there? After all, this is how I install Gentoo even if from scratch. I set my USE line before I start to emerge or update. It seems to me, in my situation, this would not solve much. Maybe I am incorrect in that. Dale :-) :-) Dale, That's not a new install as per the handbook. Neither are you a new user as you have a premade make.conf and world file and some experience with Gentoo. Put yourself in the place of a brand new Gentoo user doing his/her first install. It needs to just work out of the box, one way or another, without forums posts or calls for help in #gentoo about circular dependences. That's not just cups - thats all circular dependencies. -- Regards, Roy Bamford (Neddyseagoon) an member of gentoo-ops forum-mods trustees pgpZf1YNq8AHp.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps
On Friday 05 March 2010 17:12:23 Roy Bamford wrote: That's not a new install as per the handbook. Neither are you a new user as you have a premade make.conf and world file and some experience with Gentoo. Put yourself in the place of a brand new Gentoo user doing his/her first install. It needs to just work out of the box, one way or another, without forums posts or calls for help in #gentoo about circular dependences. That's not just cups - thats all circular dependencies. Brand new gentoo user goes throu handbook - reads set up USE variables in make.conf and does it according to his/her needs following use.*.desc. If gentoo was new to me i *would* enter cups as i use printers often at work. -- Cheers Dawid Węgliński
Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps
El vie, 05-03-2010 a las 19:03 +0100, Dawid Węgliński escribió: On Friday 05 March 2010 17:12:23 Roy Bamford wrote: That's not a new install as per the handbook. Neither are you a new user as you have a premade make.conf and world file and some experience with Gentoo. Put yourself in the place of a brand new Gentoo user doing his/her first install. It needs to just work out of the box, one way or another, without forums posts or calls for help in #gentoo about circular dependences. That's not just cups - thats all circular dependencies. Brand new gentoo user goes throu handbook - reads set up USE variables in make.conf and does it according to his/her needs following use.*.desc. If gentoo was new to me i *would* enter cups as i use printers often at work. +1 I did it (I mean, add some commonly used USE flags) in all my Gentoo installations, and I would add cups for sure (since printing is used every day in most machines I use and administrate). Leio pointed some messages ago about the possibility of splitting some poppler parts to fix this circular dep issue, what is the problem with that option? The suggestion is not about splitting every poppler part in tons of ebuilds, but simply split poppler in the minimum needed to fix this problem (sorry if I missed the reply, I haven't followed discussion too deeply :-( ) Thanks and best regards signature.asc Description: Esta parte del mensaje está firmada digitalmente
Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps
chrome://messenger/locale/messengercompose/composeMsgs.properties: El vie, 05-03-2010 a las 19:03 +0100, Dawid Węgliński escribió: On Friday 05 March 2010 17:12:23 Roy Bamford wrote: That's not a new install as per the handbook. Neither are you a new user as you have a premade make.conf and world file and some experience with Gentoo. Put yourself in the place of a brand new Gentoo user doing his/her first install. It needs to just work out of the box, one way or another, without forums posts or calls for help in #gentoo about circular dependences. That's not just cups - thats all circular dependencies. Brand new gentoo user goes throu handbook - reads set up USE variables in make.conf and does it according to his/her needs following use.*.desc. If gentoo was new to me i *would* enter cups as i use printers often at work. +1 I did it (I mean, add some commonly used USE flags) in all my Gentoo installations, and I would add cups for sure (since printing is used every day in most machines I use and administrate). Leio pointed some messages ago about the possibility of splitting some poppler parts to fix this circular dep issue, what is the problem with that option? The suggestion is not about splitting every poppler part in tons of ebuilds, but simply split poppler in the minimum needed to fix this problem (sorry if I missed the reply, I haven't followed discussion too deeply :-( ) Thanks and best regards This is what I am saying. *IF* cups were some little known or obscure USE flag, one could make the argument that it would not be set until later on. I started with Gentoo over 6 years ago. I had only used anything Linux for a few months. I knew what cups was. Even tho I was new to Linux when I first installed Mandrake, I knew I had a printer. It was a old used one at the time but I still had a printer. I wanted that printer to work. Mandrake picked that up for me, Gentoo is not that way. I have to pick that up, not the OS. I am also saying that this needs a long term fix. I'm thinking a long term fix like happened with the blocks issue. If in the short term this USE flag ha to be removed, then fine. It's doesn't really fix anything is my opinion. If a user turns that flag on as is in the docs, the problem is still there. This is why we need a long term fix. This may take a good while, months, year, who knows. This just should not be called fixed when the problem is still there. Please don't just remove the USE flag and forget the reason it happened. This is Gentoo. I'm proud to tell people I use it. I want it to stay on top of the pile not fall to the bottom. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps
On Monday 01 of March 2010 22:24:56 Ben de Groot wrote: For some reason beyond my understanding, we have the cups useflag enabled by default in profiles. This has started to generate circular dependencies, at least for desktop profile users (gtk - cups - poppler - gtk). I propose we no longer enable the cups useflag. poppler[utils] are just pdfto*sth converters, and they're most likely pure runtime depedencies for net-print/cups. Could someone from printing herd verify? If so, then it's sufficient to fix cups dependencies (move poppler[utils] from COMMON_DEPEND to PDEPEND) and problem solved. If no, I can split off utils from poppler - with CMake it's effortless. -- regards MM
Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps
On 5 March 2010 21:51, Maciej Mrozowski reave...@gmail.com wrote: poppler[utils] are just pdfto*sth converters, and they're most likely pure runtime depedencies for net-print/cups. Could someone from printing herd verify? If so, then it's sufficient to fix cups dependencies (move poppler[utils] from COMMON_DEPEND to PDEPEND) and problem solved. From looking at the cups ebuild there is a configure option, so I don't think it's that straightforward, but there might be a solution here. If no, I can split off utils from poppler - with CMake it's effortless. We just rejoined the split poppler into one package again. So if you are going to split it up again, you will have some explaining to do to our users. I would like to prevent splitting, and see if we can fix maybe the cups ebuild instead. Or maybe the gtk+ maintainers want to split up their package... I understand they like that sort of thing. Cheers, -- Ben de Groot Gentoo Linux developer (qt, media, lxde, desktop-misc) __
Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps
2010/3/4 Dawid Węgliński c...@gentoo.org: On Wednesday 03 March 2010 22:51:10 Ben de Groot wrote: I'm not talking about selectively disabling cups. My proposal is to no longer enable the cups useflag in the base profile. How is that going to fix circular dependency problem? What will you do if every user add cups to USE in make.conf? Say we don't support cups turned on by default? I hope no. Removing this flag from profile will not fix any problem but hide it. It will fix the out of the box circular dependency for people who switch to a default desktop profile. This is the main problem we need to solve now. Certain useflag and package combinations will trigger a circular dep, that is a know occurrence in Gentoo. But at least with a default configuration things should work out of the box. For other configurations there are workarounds (in this case: install gtk+ without cups, or poppler without cairo enabled first). Cheers, -- Ben de Groot Gentoo Linux developer (qt, media, lxde, desktop-misc) __
Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps
On 4 March 2010 08:27, Zeerak Mustafa Waseem zeera...@gmail.com wrote: Isn't the split of the desktop profile, into KDE and gnome profiles, whilst leaving a base Desktop profile, exactly meant for the purpose that if you're not building KDE/Gnome, then you don't need to set the qt flags, unless some application needs it, or you find that you'd prefer to have them set system-wide? The toolkits should still be enabled in the default desktop profile, they are not DE specific. Cheers, -- Ben de Groot Gentoo Linux developer (qt, media, lxde, desktop-misc) __
Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps
On 4 March 2010 08:08, Joshua Saddler nightmo...@gentoo.org wrote: Your logic is very thin here. By that same line of reasoning, neither are the gtk or qt flags, since you don't need 'em if you're building, say, a *box desktop. Toolkits are more directly useful to a desktop than printing. Printing is something I'd argue is part of a desktop environment. And I'd argue it isn't necessarily so. Cheers, -- Ben de Groot Gentoo Linux developer (qt, media, lxde, desktop-misc) __
Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps
At Wed, 03 Mar 2010 21:19:42 -0600, Dale wrote: Now watch some geek find a really simple solution next week. ;-) I'm not very expirienced at gentoo development, but I just thought of (I hope) a possible solution to this. A circular dependency should always be caused by some USE flags (otherwise it could never be satisfied). So if portage detects a circular dependency, it could try first merging the circle without _any_ USE flags and in a second sweep do the merges with the correct USE flags (so some packages get merged twice in a run with circular dependencies). Since this seems to be what would be done manually otherwise I think this should work, but I'm just a noob, so no guarantees ;) Markus -- Aoccdrnig to a threoy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer are in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it in msot csaes. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. And I awlyas thought slpeling was ipmorantt.
Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps
On 03/03/2010 07:45 PM, Mart Raudsepp wrote: I don't think there was any such problem until poppler maintainers decided to unsplit poppler into one big packages with USE flags again instead of the nice split poppler, poppler-glib (that should have been named poppler-cairo probably instead), poppler-qt3, poppler-qt4 and poppler-utils. If we could manage to convince poppler upstream that would be nice to actually provide bindings packages aside a core one... lu -- Luca Barbato Gentoo/linux http://dev.gentoo.org/~lu_zero
Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps
On N, 2010-03-04 at 12:50 +0100, Ben de Groot wrote: 2010/3/4 Dawid Węgliński c...@gentoo.org: On Wednesday 03 March 2010 22:51:10 Ben de Groot wrote: I'm not talking about selectively disabling cups. My proposal is to no longer enable the cups useflag in the base profile. How is that going to fix circular dependency problem? What will you do if every user add cups to USE in make.conf? Say we don't support cups turned on by default? I hope no. Removing this flag from profile will not fix any problem but hide it. It will fix the out of the box circular dependency for people who switch to a default desktop profile. This is the main problem we need to solve now. The main problem to solve here is the circular dependency that you yourself introduced as a co-maintainer of poppler, by converting poppler to be monolithic. This from the outside looks like it was done to reduce your maintenance workload in the (possibly accidental) expense of users who are now getting circular dependencies in a fairly common setup. If cups should be enabled in the desktop profile or not is a completely different question. The correct solution here is to fix the core problem that is now happening - not to start removing common desktop needed USE flags from the desktop profiles to delay the correct fix for this circular dependency you guys have introduced for us. Certain useflag and package combinations will trigger a circular dep, that is a know occurrence in Gentoo. But at least with a default configuration things should work out of the box. For other configurations there are workarounds (in this case: install gtk+ without cups, or poppler without cairo enabled first). Circular dependencies shouldn't happen in any situation. I claim there is always a solution to avoid it. A different question is if the cost of the solution is acceptable compared to the problems it causes. I believe an inconvenience for the poppler maintainers is completely justified here for the benefit of users in the form of properly split packages, considering how this affects a majority of desktop users (problem hidden by default or not). I'll later make sure there is a bug for fixing this circular dependency mess properly. I believe the only possible fix is to split poppler back to at least core, bindings and utils, as it seems to be a problem due to poppler-utils requirement by cups. It doesn't need poppler-glib, so utils and bindings being a separate package, as it always was before, would nicely solve it. -- Mart Raudsepp Gentoo Developer Mail: l...@gentoo.org Weblog: http://blogs.gentoo.org/leio signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps
chrome://messenger/locale/messengercompose/composeMsgs.properties: On 4 March 2010 08:08, Joshua Saddlernightmo...@gentoo.org wrote: Your logic is very thin here. By that same line of reasoning, neither are the gtk or qt flags, since you don't need 'em if you're building, say, a *box desktop. Toolkits are more directly useful to a desktop than printing. Printing is something I'd argue is part of a desktop environment. And I'd argue it isn't necessarily so. Cheers, Sounds like your argument is more like a opinion. I built my desktop about 6 years ago and the next thing bought after the build was a printer. I use it daily. I'm 42 so I don't have access to a free printer at a school or some public printer. Everyone here charges by the page so it is much cheaper for me to own my own printer. Removing the cups USE flag still doesn't fix the problem I pointed out in another reply. If you unpack the tarball and set the USE line as you should, the circular dependency is still there. Correct? So nothing is fixed by doing this. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps
On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 21:01, Dale rdalek1...@gmail.com wrote: Sounds like your argument is more like a opinion. I built my desktop about Since people keep talking about not wanting cups disabled for the desktop profiles, can we at least agree that it should be disabled by default for the non-desktop profiles? Cheers, Dirkjan
Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps
chrome://messenger/locale/messengercompose/composeMsgs.properties: On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 21:01, Dalerdalek1...@gmail.com wrote: Sounds like your argument is more like a opinion. I built my desktop about Since people keep talking about not wanting cups disabled for the desktop profiles, can we at least agree that it should be disabled by default for the non-desktop profiles? Cheers, Dirkjan To me, that makes sense. It certainly seems more logical to do that. I'm of the opinion that a server profile should be very limited. Let the user decide what kind of server they are going to have. A desktop profile can be limited but should include the more common options. There may be things that would depend on what type of GUI you are running but that could be left up to the user and documented in the docs. Let the user pick which path they want to go down. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps
chrome://messenger/locale/messengercompose/composeMsgs.properties: On 4 March 2010 21:01, Dalerdalek1...@gmail.com wrote: Removing the cups USE flag still doesn't fix the problem I pointed out in another reply. If you unpack the tarball and set the USE line as you should, the circular dependency is still there. Correct? So nothing is fixed by doing this. What it fixes is (1) the circular dependency that people run into on a fresh install and the default desktop profile, and (2) the default dependency on cups that many users do not need. What it does not fix is the case of users who enable both cairo and cups useflags on a system where neither gtk+ nor cups is present yet. But this issue can be discussed separately from whether cups should be enabled in profiles. Cheers, In the other post, I explained how this will not fix this at all. As mentioned, untar the tarball, copy the make.conf and world file over then start the install. Guess what, the circular dependency is right there. If I had to reinstall Gentoo from scratch, because of say a hard drive failure, that is what I would do. If a person follows the documentation and enables the USE flags they need, same thing. It's not like cups is a hidden feature. Anyone even familiar with Linux a little bit knows what cups is. As I have learned a long time ago, you enable the USE flags as soon as possible. If you don't, you end up recompiling a lot of packages just to enable them later. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps
chrome://messenger/locale/messengercompose/composeMsgs.properties: On 5 March 2010 00:27, Dalerdalek1...@gmail.com wrote: But this issue can be discussed separately from whether cups should be enabled in profiles. Actually, it is the problem. You want to remove cups to solve the problem of circular dependencies. What I wrote was: What it fixes is (1) the circular dependency that people run into on a fresh install and the default desktop profile, and (2) the default dependency on cups that many users do not need. But if you choose to ignore what I actually write, then I'd better stop responding. Good night, You notice what I wrote? If I had to install Gentoo again, I would copy or set my USE flags first then install. If I do that right after unpacking the tarball, which is how it should be done, then you have fixed nothing. The problem you claim to have fixed is not fixed at all. Maybe it is not me that should stop responding? Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps
Hi, On 2010-03-05 00:00 UTC Dale wrote: chrome://messenger/locale/messengercompose/composeMsgs.properties: On 5 March 2010 00:27, Dalerdalek1...@gmail.com wrote: But this issue can be discussed separately from whether cups should be enabled in profiles. Actually, it is the problem. You want to remove cups to solve the problem of circular dependencies. What I wrote was: What it fixes is (1) the circular dependency that people run into on a fresh install and the default desktop profile, and (2) the default dependency on cups that many users do not need. But if you choose to ignore what I actually write, then I'd better stop responding. Good night, You notice what I wrote? If I had to install Gentoo again, I would copy or set my USE flags first then install. If I do that right after unpacking the tarball, which is how it should be done, then you have fixed nothing. The problem you claim to have fixed is not fixed at all. Maybe it is not me that should stop responding? Obviously, users who re-install Gentoo the way you do will have less difficulties resolving a circular dependency than those who are just following the guide and getting their first Gentoo experience. Patrick. -- Key ID: 0x86E346D4http://patrick-nagel.net/key.asc Fingerprint: 7745 E1BE FA8B FBAD 76AB 2BFC C981 E686 86E3 46D4 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps
On 03/04/2010 08:57 PM, Patrick Nagel wrote: Obviously, users who re-install Gentoo the way you do will have less difficulties resolving a circular dependency than those who are just following the guide and getting their first Gentoo experience. I think that the cups issue is probably worth mentioning in the Handbook. Whether it is there by default or not lots of people get burned by it. A little advanced warning would help. I think that at the very least following the handbooks to the letter should never lead to an error. I think that a good argument can be made for or against having cups in the desktop profile - this might actually be the sort of thing a survey would be useful to address. I think that is separate from the circular dependency issue. As long as we have an unresolved circular dependency I think cups should be off the list. However, I'd be the first to agree that this is a short-term solution. The problem is that we only have two long-term solutions so far: 1. A smarter package manager that can work through these dependencies automatically. 2. Splitting packages like poppler that have these issues. Both of these need effort to address. #1 requires PM work, and #2 requires an ongoing commitment to do more work to keep poppler working. Unless somebody can come up with a #3 at this point the most constructive thing anybody can do is help out. A good place to start would be to write up some patches to the handbook that clearly explain how to deal with this problem. I'm not sure I agree with the poppler maintainers but they may have reasons that aren't apparent to me and the fact is that it is a whole lot easier to tell somebody how to maintain a package when I'm not the one actually doing the work. Nothing gets results in FOSS like dirty hands... Rich
Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps
chrome://messenger/locale/messengercompose/composeMsgs.properties: Hi, On 2010-03-05 00:00 UTC Dale wrote: chrome://messenger/locale/messengercompose/composeMsgs.properties: On 5 March 2010 00:27, Dalerdalek1...@gmail.com wrote: But this issue can be discussed separately from whether cups should be enabled in profiles. Actually, it is the problem. You want to remove cups to solve the problem of circular dependencies. What I wrote was: What it fixes is (1) the circular dependency that people run into on a fresh install and the default desktop profile, and (2) the default dependency on cups that many users do not need. But if you choose to ignore what I actually write, then I'd better stop responding. Good night, You notice what I wrote? If I had to install Gentoo again, I would copy or set my USE flags first then install. If I do that right after unpacking the tarball, which is how it should be done, then you have fixed nothing. The problem you claim to have fixed is not fixed at all. Maybe it is not me that should stop responding? Obviously, users who re-install Gentoo the way you do will have less difficulties resolving a circular dependency than those who are just following the guide and getting their first Gentoo experience. Patrick. Not quite. If a person reads the docs and other howto's, they will know to set up the USE flags and other things in make.conf. Isn't the USE flags one of Gentoo's strong points? It is one reason I chose Gentoo after all. I have read where others say it as a strong point as well. So, the same thing will most likely happen to anyone installing Gentoo. Case in point, I also went here: http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-x86.xml?part=1chap=6 If you scroll down to section 2.3, that is where it tells you to select your profile. Want to guess what is next? Yep, setting the USE flags. So, chroot in, sync the tree, select the profile then add your USE flags. So far, we are where we was several replies ago. Same problem and that is following the official install guide. I wasn't looking at the expert guide, that is the general user guide for newbies. If this was some rarely used flag then maybe this would make a little sense. This is cups. It's not something that is rarely used or that someone even a little familiar with Linux wouldn't know to turn it on. They may not know what cups stands for but they know it makes their printer work. I guess like with some other things, the devs can do it their way and let that be the end of it. I just feel the best way is to find a long term fix for this and other similar issues. If it is not done now, it will just pile up until it is fixed. Just like the problem with blocks. It got bad enough that someone had to find a way to fix it. Someone did just that. I don't know who that person is but that was a job well done. We need the same type of person to deal with this. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps
chrome://messenger/locale/messengercompose/composeMsgs.properties: On 03/04/2010 08:57 PM, Patrick Nagel wrote: Obviously, users who re-install Gentoo the way you do will have less difficulties resolving a circular dependency than those who are just following the guide and getting their first Gentoo experience. I think that the cups issue is probably worth mentioning in the Handbook. Whether it is there by default or not lots of people get burned by it. A little advanced warning would help. I think that at the very least following the handbooks to the letter should never lead to an error. I think that a good argument can be made for or against having cups in the desktop profile - this might actually be the sort of thing a survey would be useful to address. I think that is separate from the circular dependency issue. As long as we have an unresolved circular dependency I think cups should be off the list. However, I'd be the first to agree that this is a short-term solution. The problem is that we only have two long-term solutions so far: 1. A smarter package manager that can work through these dependencies automatically. 2. Splitting packages like poppler that have these issues. Both of these need effort to address. #1 requires PM work, and #2 requires an ongoing commitment to do more work to keep poppler working. Unless somebody can come up with a #3 at this point the most constructive thing anybody can do is help out. A good place to start would be to write up some patches to the handbook that clearly explain how to deal with this problem. I'm not sure I agree with the poppler maintainers but they may have reasons that aren't apparent to me and the fact is that it is a whole lot easier to tell somebody how to maintain a package when I'm not the one actually doing the work. Nothing gets results in FOSS like dirty hands... Rich Well said. I agree with this. The devs may not be able to fix this specific issue but circular deps come up. We need a long term fix and now is as good a time as any to start thinking of one. Heck, I don't expect this to be done this week. It may take months to fix this or just figure out a way to do it. I just know this is becoming a problem and it isn't getting any better even tho people are trying. I would like to see a solution like happened with the blocks issue. Just some way that is easy for the devs to keep the tree clean but also have a package manager that can work around this. Even if it means portage spitting out a message that some packages shouldn't be used during the update because some packages have to be uninstalled first, that would be good. Let portage wait for a yes/no reply before doing the updates and doing them as close to first thing as possible. Read that as, don't compile openoffice then come back to the deps part. Progress. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps
Richard Freeman ri...@gentoo.org writes: I think that is separate from the circular dependency issue. As long as we have an unresolved circular dependency I think cups should be off the list. However, I'd be the first to agree that this is a short-term solution. The problem is that we only have two long-term solutions so far: 1. A smarter package manager that can work through these dependencies automatically. 2. Splitting packages like poppler that have these issues. Is there not a third, maybe obvious, solution to circular dependencies on initial install? 3. Include one or both of the packages in the stage tarball.
Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps
chrome://messenger/locale/messengercompose/composeMsgs.properties: Richard Freemanri...@gentoo.org writes: I think that is separate from the circular dependency issue. As long as we have an unresolved circular dependency I think cups should be off the list. However, I'd be the first to agree that this is a short-term solution. The problem is that we only have two long-term solutions so far: 1. A smarter package manager that can work through these dependencies automatically. 2. Splitting packages like poppler that have these issues. Is there not a third, maybe obvious, solution to circular dependencies on initial install? 3. Include one or both of the packages in the stage tarball. I'm not a dev but what else uses poppler or other packages that would be added? Also, this would affect server profiles. Last I checked, server, desktop or any other profile starts from the same tarball. It's a idea but would it be a good one? I don't know the answer to that question. Is this a Gentoo thing or is this caused by upstream? I only use Gentoo so maybe it affects other distros as well. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps
On Thu, Mar 04, 2010 at 10:19:05PM -0600, Dale wrote: chrome://messenger/locale/messengercompose/composeMsgs.properties: Richard Freemanri...@gentoo.org writes: I think that is separate from the circular dependency issue. As long as we have an unresolved circular dependency I think cups should be off the list. However, I'd be the first to agree that this is a short-term solution. The problem is that we only have two long-term solutions so far: 1. A smarter package manager that can work through these dependencies automatically. 2. Splitting packages like poppler that have these issues. Is there not a third, maybe obvious, solution to circular dependencies on initial install? 3. Include one or both of the packages in the stage tarball. I'm not a dev but what else uses poppler or other packages that would be added? Also, this would affect server profiles. Last I checked, server, desktop or any other profile starts from the same tarball. It's a idea but would it be a good one? I don't know the answer to that question. Is this a Gentoo thing or is this caused by upstream? I only use Gentoo so maybe it affects other distros as well. Dale :-) :-) Well the merge of the poppler packages seems to have been made in upstream. So it should affect other distros as well. Perhaps not binary distros, though. For now I don't see any other way to solve it other than removing the use flag, and perhaps adding a warning in the handbook about this circular dep. the idea about using a tarball is good enough, the problem with that (as I see it) is what Dale also points out. Desktop and server profiles start from the same tarball, so in order to do this effectively (I seem to remember people coming to an agreement that a server profile wouldn't need cups), there'd have to be a tarball for desktops and one for servers. I quite like the idea of a unified tarball, and going from there, choosing the right profile etc. As opposed to choosing the right tarball, then choosing the right profile that fits with that tarball. To me it seems to complicate matters where there's no need. And also, we would like for portage to continue to grow, and being able to resolve circular dependencies automatically, doesn't seem like a bad goal. :-) -- Zeerak Waseem pgpe6E98z7YDh.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps
On E, 2010-03-01 at 13:40 -0800, Zac Medico wrote: On 03/01/2010 01:24 PM, Ben de Groot wrote: For some reason beyond my understanding, we have the cups useflag enabled by default in profiles. This has started to generate circular dependencies, at least for desktop profile users (gtk - cups - poppler - gtk). I propose we no longer enable the cups useflag. If you don't want to disable the cups flag globally, you might choose to disable for gtk+ by default in profiles/base/package.use like this: x11-libs/gtk+ -cups That can be overridden by user's USE=cups setting in make.conf, so the only effect would be to break the circular dependency by default. I don't think there was any such problem until poppler maintainers decided to unsplit poppler into one big packages with USE flags again instead of the nice split poppler, poppler-glib (that should have been named poppler-cairo probably instead), poppler-qt3, poppler-qt4 and poppler-utils. I don't believe we should selectively cripple one GUI toolkit with not having proper printing support out of the box on a desktop profile, while others do, just because maintainers are lazy. -- Mart Raudsepp Gentoo Developer Mail: l...@gentoo.org Weblog: http://blogs.gentoo.org/leio signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps
On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 12:15 AM, Mart Raudsepp l...@gentoo.org wrote: I don't think there was any such problem until poppler maintainers decided to unsplit poppler into one big packages with USE flags again instead of the nice split poppler, poppler-glib (that should have been named poppler-cairo probably instead), poppler-qt3, poppler-qt4 and poppler-utils. Also of note is that we've made efforts to split packages to avoid circular dependencies[1]. So it's really silly to add circular deps by un-splitting packages. 1. http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=269747#c11 -- ~Nirbheek Chauhan Gentoo GNOME+Mozilla Team
Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps
On 3 March 2010 19:45, Mart Raudsepp l...@gentoo.org wrote: I don't believe we should selectively cripple one GUI toolkit with not having proper printing support out of the box on a desktop profile, while others do, just because maintainers are lazy. I'm not talking about selectively disabling cups. My proposal is to no longer enable the cups useflag in the base profile. I don't think cups should be part of the base profile, and as a result cascading to the desktop profile. And a lot of people seem to agree. Users can always enable that functionality when they need it. It is not something that is necessary for running a desktop system. Cheers, -- Ben de Groot Gentoo Linux developer (qt, media, lxde, desktop-misc) __
Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps
On 3 March 2010 19:54, Nirbheek Chauhan nirbh...@gentoo.org wrote: Also of note is that we've made efforts to split packages to avoid circular dependencies[1]. So it's really silly to add circular deps by un-splitting packages. I think it's silly to split packages for no good reason. And doing it to avoid circular deps is only a good reason in extreme cases where they can't be worked around in any other way. Standard Gentoo practice is one ebuild per upstream package and useflags to toggle optional functionality. I don't see any reason to deviate from that practice in the case of poppler. Cheers, -- Ben de Groot Gentoo Linux developer (qt, media, lxde, desktop-misc) __
Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps
On 03/03/10 15:51, Ben de Groot wrote: On 3 March 2010 19:45, Mart Raudsepp l...@gentoo.org wrote: I don't believe we should selectively cripple one GUI toolkit with not having proper printing support out of the box on a desktop profile, while others do, just because maintainers are lazy. I'm not talking about selectively disabling cups. My proposal is to no longer enable the cups useflag in the base profile. I don't think cups should be part of the base profile, and as a result cascading to the desktop profile. And a lot of people seem to agree. Users can always enable that functionality when they need it. It is not something that is necessary for running a desktop system. Cheers, I agree that CUPS is not really necessary in the desktop profile, and especially in the base profile. Many systems run desktop environments without needing printing support. As we advance further toward a paperless computing experience, the need for printing support becomes even less. And, as it is incredibly simple to add print capabilities by placing the cups USE flag in /etc/make.conf, that choice should be left to the user. Regards, Nathan Zachary
Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps
chrome://messenger/locale/messengercompose/composeMsgs.properties: On 03/03/10 15:51, Ben de Groot wrote: On 3 March 2010 19:45, Mart Raudseppl...@gentoo.org wrote: I don't believe we should selectively cripple one GUI toolkit with not having proper printing support out of the box on a desktop profile, while others do, just because maintainers are lazy. I'm not talking about selectively disabling cups. My proposal is to no longer enable the cups useflag in the base profile. I don't think cups should be part of the base profile, and as a result cascading to the desktop profile. And a lot of people seem to agree. Users can always enable that functionality when they need it. It is not something that is necessary for running a desktop system. Cheers, I agree that CUPS is not really necessary in the desktop profile, and especially in the base profile. Many systems run desktop environments without needing printing support. As we advance further toward a paperless computing experience, the need for printing support becomes even less. And, as it is incredibly simple to add print capabilities by placing the cups USE flag in /etc/make.conf, that choice should be left to the user. Regards, Nathan Zachary One could argue the opposite as well. Adding -cups to make.conf is just as easy. I'm one of those lowly users. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps
I'm not talking about selectively disabling cups. My proposal is to no longer enable the cups useflag in the base profile. I don't think cups should be part of the base profile, and as a result cascading to the desktop profile. And a lot of people seem to agree. Users can always enable that functionality when they need it. It is not something that is necessary for running a desktop system. Cheers, I agree that CUPS is not really necessary in the desktop profile, and especially in the base profile. Many systems run desktop environments without needing printing support. As we advance further toward a paperless computing experience, the need for printing support becomes even less. And, as it is incredibly simple to add print capabilities by placing the cups USE flag in /etc/make.conf, that choice should be left to the user. Regards, Nathan Zachary One could argue the opposite as well. Adding -cups to make.conf is just as easy. I'm one of those lowly users. Dale :-) :-) I think that the point is that it is better to have it disabled by default so that new users do not run into these circular dependencies upon their first installation. They can then add cups to their make.conf and emerge -avuDN world to get full printing support. Just as a sidebar, there is not a lowly user. Your input is greatly important in all matters regarding Gentoo as you are a member of the userbase. It's your operating system too! :) Regards, Nathan Zachary
Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps
chrome://messenger/locale/messengercompose/composeMsgs.properties: I'm not talking about selectively disabling cups. My proposal is to no longer enable the cups useflag in the base profile. I don't think cups should be part of the base profile, and as a result cascading to the desktop profile. And a lot of people seem to agree. Users can always enable that functionality when they need it. It is not something that is necessary for running a desktop system. Cheers, I agree that CUPS is not really necessary in the desktop profile, and especially in the base profile. Many systems run desktop environments without needing printing support. As we advance further toward a paperless computing experience, the need for printing support becomes even less. And, as it is incredibly simple to add print capabilities by placing the cups USE flag in /etc/make.conf, that choice should be left to the user. Regards, Nathan Zachary One could argue the opposite as well. Adding -cups to make.conf is just as easy. I'm one of those lowly users. Dale :-) :-) I think that the point is that it is better to have it disabled by default so that new users do not run into these circular dependencies upon their first installation. They can then add cups to their make.conf and emerge -avuDN world to get full printing support. Just as a sidebar, there is not a lowly user. Your input is greatly important in all matters regarding Gentoo as you are a member of the userbase. It's your operating system too! :) Regards, Nathan Zachary Let just think of it this way. I have to reinstall say from a dead hard drive. I have copies of my make.conf and world file. I install my new drive, download the tarball and unpack it. I copy over make.conf and world. Naturally cups will be enabled. Then I sync and start to update. Isn't that circular dependency still going to be there? After all, this is how I install Gentoo even if from scratch. I set my USE line before I start to emerge or update. It seems to me, in my situation, this would not solve much. Maybe I am incorrect in that. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps
chrome://messenger/locale/messengercompose/composeMsgs.properties: On 03/03/10 20:17, Dale wrote: chrome://messenger/locale/messengercompose/composeMsgs.properties: I'm not talking about selectively disabling cups. My proposal is to no longer enable the cups useflag in the base profile. I don't think cups should be part of the base profile, and as a result cascading to the desktop profile. And a lot of people seem to agree. Users can always enable that functionality when they need it. It is not something that is necessary for running a desktop system. Cheers, I agree that CUPS is not really necessary in the desktop profile, and especially in the base profile. Many systems run desktop environments without needing printing support. As we advance further toward a paperless computing experience, the need for printing support becomes even less. And, as it is incredibly simple to add print capabilities by placing the cups USE flag in /etc/make.conf, that choice should be left to the user. Regards, Nathan Zachary One could argue the opposite as well. Adding -cups to make.conf is just as easy. I'm one of those lowly users. Dale :-) :-) I think that the point is that it is better to have it disabled by default so that new users do not run into these circular dependencies upon their first installation. They can then add cups to their make.conf and emerge -avuDN world to get full printing support. Just as a sidebar, there is not a lowly user. Your input is greatly important in all matters regarding Gentoo as you are a member of the userbase. It's your operating system too! :) Regards, Nathan Zachary Let just think of it this way. I have to reinstall say from a dead hard drive. I have copies of my make.conf and world file. I install my new drive, download the tarball and unpack it. I copy over make.conf and world. Naturally cups will be enabled. Then I sync and start to update. Isn't that circular dependency still going to be there? After all, this is how I install Gentoo even if from scratch. I set my USE line before I start to emerge or update. It seems to me, in my situation, this would not solve much. Maybe I am incorrect in that. Dale :-) :-) I believe the circular dependency is solved if one emerges gtk+ (and possibly poppler?) without CUPS support, and then goes back and emerges everything with CUPS. Regards, Nathan Zachary So in the situation above, removing cups doesn't help any? The user would still have to work around the dependency problem. Is there not a better way to handle this? Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps
On 03/03/2010 09:41 PM, Dale wrote: So in the situation above, removing cups doesn't help any? The user would still have to work around the dependency problem. Is there not a better way to handle this? Agreed that there should be better ways of handling things. However, at the very least if somebody follows the instructions in the Gentoo Handbook to the letter, they shouldn't end up staring at an error message. A completely scripted install using any non-experimental profile should just work. So, removing the use flag should probably be done at least in the interim. That said, I do agree that we need to try to avoid this circular dependency in the first place. It is kind of silly that you can't even do an emerge -u world right out of a stage3 using a fairly common set of use flags and get a working system.
Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps
chrome://messenger/locale/messengercompose/composeMsgs.properties: On 03/03/2010 09:41 PM, Dale wrote: So in the situation above, removing cups doesn't help any? The user would still have to work around the dependency problem. Is there not a better way to handle this? Agreed that there should be better ways of handling things. However, at the very least if somebody follows the instructions in the Gentoo Handbook to the letter, they shouldn't end up staring at an error message. A completely scripted install using any non-experimental profile should just work. So, removing the use flag should probably be done at least in the interim. That said, I do agree that we need to try to avoid this circular dependency in the first place. It is kind of silly that you can't even do an emerge -u world right out of a stage3 using a fairly common set of use flags and get a working system. I only raised the point in case someone could come up with a better long term solution. It may be that this is the only way right now. However, it may be that someone will consider this that actually sits and writes the code for portage or decides how dependencies are calculated. Maybe a better way will present itself in the future. A good solution for most of the blocks was found so this will be dealt with at some point with a long term plan. Now watch some geek find a really simple solution next week. ;-) Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps
On Wednesday 03 March 2010 22:51:10 Ben de Groot wrote: On 3 March 2010 19:45, Mart Raudsepp l...@gentoo.org wrote: I don't believe we should selectively cripple one GUI toolkit with not having proper printing support out of the box on a desktop profile, while others do, just because maintainers are lazy. I'm not talking about selectively disabling cups. My proposal is to no longer enable the cups useflag in the base profile. I don't think cups should be part of the base profile, and as a result cascading to the desktop profile. And a lot of people seem to agree. Users can always enable that functionality when they need it. It is not something that is necessary for running a desktop system. Cheers, How is that going to fix circular dependency problem? What will you do if every user add cups to USE in make.conf? Say we don't support cups turned on by default? I hope no. Removing this flag from profile will not fix any problem but hide it. -- Cheers Dawid Węgliński
Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps
On 3 March 2010 19:45, Mart Raudsepp l...@gentoo.org wrote: I don't believe we should selectively cripple one GUI toolkit with not having proper printing support out of the box on a desktop profile, while others do, just because maintainers are lazy. It is not something that is necessary for running a desktop system. Your logic is very thin here. By that same line of reasoning, neither are the gtk or qt flags, since you don't need 'em if you're building, say, a *box desktop. Printing is something I'd argue is part of a desktop environment. It's very much a graphical activity, and that's what a desktop is. We've had the Printing Guide in our Desktop Documentation Resources section for years for that very reason. http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/?catid=desktop signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps
On Wed, Mar 03, 2010 at 11:08:07PM -0800, Joshua Saddler wrote: On 3 March 2010 19:45, Mart Raudsepp l...@gentoo.org wrote: I don't believe we should selectively cripple one GUI toolkit with not having proper printing support out of the box on a desktop profile, while others do, just because maintainers are lazy. It is not something that is necessary for running a desktop system. Your logic is very thin here. By that same line of reasoning, neither are the gtk or qt flags, since you don't need 'em if you're building, say, a *box desktop. Printing is something I'd argue is part of a desktop environment. It's very much a graphical activity, and that's what a desktop is. We've had the Printing Guide in our Desktop Documentation Resources section for years for that very reason. http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/?catid=desktop Isn't the split of the desktop profile, into KDE and gnome profiles, whilst leaving a base Desktop profile, exactly meant for the purpose that if you're not building KDE/Gnome, then you don't need to set the qt flags, unless some application needs it, or you find that you'd prefer to have them set system-wide? -- Zeerak Waseem pgpEJ2836hG1f.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps
On 03/01/2010 01:24 PM, Ben de Groot wrote: For some reason beyond my understanding, we have the cups useflag enabled by default in profiles. This has started to generate circular dependencies, at least for desktop profile users (gtk - cups - poppler - gtk). I propose we no longer enable the cups useflag. If you don't want to disable the cups flag globally, you might choose to disable for gtk+ by default in profiles/base/package.use like this: x11-libs/gtk+ -cups That can be overridden by user's USE=cups setting in make.conf, so the only effect would be to break the circular dependency by default. -- Thanks, Zac
Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps
On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 22:24, Ben de Groot yng...@gentoo.org wrote: For some reason beyond my understanding, we have the cups useflag enabled by default in profiles. I'm +1 on disabling it by default. Cheers, Dirkjan
RE: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps
+1 for disabling it by default, long as it's done with care, because it pretty hard for a newbie to understand what the hell is going on on his first installation and a lot of people use the desktop profile since it's one of the best way to install Gentoo for the first time. Sylvain Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 00:06:10 +0200 From: ssuomi...@gentoo.org To: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps On 03/01/2010 11:24 PM, Ben de Groot wrote: For some reason beyond my understanding, we have the cups useflag enabled by default in profiles. This has started to generate circular dependencies, at least for desktop profile users (gtk - cups - poppler - gtk). I propose we no longer enable the cups useflag. Cheers, +1 for disabling it by default, long as it's done with care for example, see how it will change the pkgs using USE cups, some might need a + default flag or they might get defaulted to lpr (and that is really only a example) _
