Re: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...

2006-12-30 Thread D. Ryan Spott

Jeff Broadwick wrote:

Hi Ryan,

I realize this is somewhat tangential to your main point, but I wanted to
point out that EIGRP/IGRP aren't standard protocols, nor will they work with
any other router, necessarily.  If you are shying away from proprietary
equipment, Cisco's proprietary routing protocols are the last things you
should be using. 


Regards,

Jeff

  

Ha!

Jeff also has excellent reading comprehension skills!

:)

ryan

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Re: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...

2006-12-30 Thread Mike Ireton


Off the subject, but if you are a major operator then you are most 
certainly using cisco in your core, and eigrp is standard in cisco 
enviroments and makes sense if it's available to you. Like 802.1q and 
ISL - you could do 802.1q and interoperate, or just ISL and have the 
benefits of better across the board management and configuration 
flexibillity, at the cost of interoperabillity with non cisco gear. 
Personally I would go with cisco for everything if I could, but last 
time I checked, they don't have anything I can comfortablly install and 
run off solar power in low temprature enviroments


Mike-


Jeff Broadwick wrote:

Hi Ryan,

I realize this is somewhat tangential to your main point, but I wanted to
point out that EIGRP/IGRP aren't standard protocols, nor will they work with
any other router, necessarily.  If you are shying away from proprietary
equipment, Cisco's proprietary routing protocols are the last things you
should be using. 


Regards,

Jeff



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Re: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...

2006-12-30 Thread Carl A jeptha

NO, MY TOY. You can't have it. :o

I am thinking of a summer Hotspot at our Marina and beach this year.


You have a good day now,en mag jou more's ook so wees.

Carl A Jeptha
http://www.jeptha.com
905-349-2027
skype cajeptha



Butch Evans wrote:

On Fri, 29 Dec 2006, Carl A jeptha wrote:

Backhaul CPE for some of our lighter microcells. My main Gateway is 
an MT, my Router board (with a valid License) is packed away waiting 
for me to decide something great to do with it. Come on Butch tell me 
something :-)


Ummmyou can send it to me.  :-)



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RE: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...

2006-12-30 Thread Jeff Broadwick
Hi Mike,

 Off the subject, but if you are a major operator then you are most
certainly using cisco in your core, 

You might be surprised.  That might have been true at one point, but
probably is not now.  :-)

 and eigrp is standard in cisco enviroments and makes sense if it's
available to you. 

Then it's not a standard, but a proprietary protocol.  Actually, Cisco
generally recommends BGP at this point and not EIGRP.

 Like 802.1q and ISL - you could do 802.1q and interoperate, or just ISL
and have the benefits of better across the board management and
configuration flexibillity, at the cost of interoperabillity with non cisco
gear. 

 Personally I would go with cisco for everything if I could, but last time
I checked, they don't have anything I can comfortablly install and run off
solar power in low temprature enviroments

If you are seeking solutions for this sort of application, ImageStream can
help:

http://www.imagestream.com/Envoy.html  -10C to =65C certification available

http://www.imagestream.com/R1.html  -20C to +70C  12/24 and 48 volt DC
available.

Regards,

Jeff




Mike-


Jeff Broadwick wrote:
 Hi Ryan,
 
 I realize this is somewhat tangential to your main point, but I wanted 
 to point out that EIGRP/IGRP aren't standard protocols, nor will they 
 work with any other router, necessarily.  If you are shying away from 
 proprietary equipment, Cisco's proprietary routing protocols are the 
 last things you should be using.
 
 Regards,
 
 Jeff
 

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Re: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...

2006-12-30 Thread Mike Ireton

Hi Jeff,

	Please don't get me started on imagestream... but anyways, the real 
stuff that really works - cisco - doesn't come in small form factor / 
extended temprature range and low power, is all I was saying. We use 
linux on Soekris with our own special blend (and  6mb) of linux for 
these jobs, so it's quagga and ospf and 802.1q (for actual routing) and 
no eigrp or isl for us. We don't try to do anything really fancy on any 
of the solar sites since power is at a premium and usually alls that's 
needed is little more than simple bridging at those locations while the 
heavy lifting is usually done from an AC powered site.




Jeff Broadwick wrote:



If you are seeking solutions for this sort of application, ImageStream can
help:

http://www.imagestream.com/Envoy.html  -10C to =65C certification available

http://www.imagestream.com/R1.html  -20C to +70C  12/24 and 48 volt DC
available.

Regards,

Jeff




Mike-


Jeff Broadwick wrote:

Hi Ryan,

I realize this is somewhat tangential to your main point, but I wanted 
to point out that EIGRP/IGRP aren't standard protocols, nor will they 
work with any other router, necessarily.  If you are shying away from 
proprietary equipment, Cisco's proprietary routing protocols are the 
last things you should be using.


Regards,

Jeff



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Re: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...

2006-12-30 Thread Dylan Oliver

Jeff, do you have a source for the statement that Cisco now recommends BGP
(iBGP?) vs EIGRP?

On 12/30/06, Jeff Broadwick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



Then it's not a standard, but a proprietary protocol.  Actually, Cisco
generally recommends BGP at this point and not EIGRP.



Best,
--
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Primaverity, LLC
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RE: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...

2006-12-30 Thread Jeff Broadwick
Hi Dylan,

I should have said OSPF instead of BGP...sorry about that.  That said, I
don't know that I can find a document on Cisco's Web site saying Don't use
EIGRP if that's what you want, since the comments came from Cisco engineers
and not some Web document.  Cisco, from a marketing standpoint, would love
to have you use a proprietary protocol that locks you into their hardware,
so you won't find Cisco publications suggesting the EIGRP is pointless.

You could search for OSPF vs. EIGRP and look at some of the discussion as
to why OSPF is preferable.  Experts Exchange has a good discussion.  From an
interoperability standpoint, unless you plan to run a Cisco-only network,
EIGRP doesn't make sense.  OSPF also gives you options with OSPF areas that
EIGRP doesn't have analogs for.  One of our customers in N/W Indiana is a
good example of why you'd use OSPF.  He has a mix of D-Link switches,
ImageStreams, and Mikrotik APs that need to share dynamic routing
information.  EIGRP isn't an option (even if he had Cisco equipment, which
he doesn't).

The bottom line is this: OSPF is standards based and widely supported.
EIGRP is a proprietary protocol.  Enough said.
 
Regards,

Jeff



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dylan Oliver
Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2006 10:05 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...

Jeff, do you have a source for the statement that Cisco now recommends BGP
(iBGP?) vs EIGRP?

On 12/30/06, Jeff Broadwick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


 Then it's not a standard, but a proprietary protocol.  Actually, Cisco 
 generally recommends BGP at this point and not EIGRP.


Best,
--
Dylan Oliver
Primaverity, LLC
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Re: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...

2006-12-29 Thread Mark Koskenmaki
That router, sitting about 12 inches from my monitor, is one of the most
failure prone, troublesome, annoying and horribly underperforming piles of
JUNK I have ever laid eyes upon.

Yeah, my HOUSE is not on my own wireless network...  And at the end of a day
with that router locking up more than a half dozen times, simply going
offline 1-5 times, and other inexplicable oddness (yes,  I acct ually own
2 of these actiontec piles of junk and this is the BETTER one of the two), I
can barely spit out the word Qwest without wanting to punch or strangle
someone.  To think that my CPE will often have uptimes in the months, with
uptimes being interrupted purely by power outages, I can't exactly profess
much faith in consumer routers, in comparison to the stuff I put on
someone's roof.

I recently ran across one of my cpe I logged into by mistake (typo on the
ip) and found the uptime matched almost to the day I recall replacing it due
to a lightning strike - just about 6 months.   My gateway and backhaul often
goes 4-6 months (and once got nearly 300 days) of uptime before a radio
crash required a reboot.

Build me a solution that works as reliably and solidly as these things I put
together myself and you got something...really got something.



+++
neofast.net - fast internet for North East Oregon and South East Washington
email me at mark at neofast dot net
541-969-8200
Direct commercial inquiries to purchasing at neofast dot net

- Original Message - 
From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 11:24 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...




 Butch Evans wrote:
   It is my contention (and yours, it seems) that a router
  at the CPE is necessary.
 

 BINGO.

 Qwest DSL has a router at every customer. Ever taken a look at what
 those Actiontec wireless dsl routers do...

 As we stated in an earlier thread, those pesky routers matter more than
 our cpes, to the customer.


 -- 
 George Rogato

 Welcome to WISPA

 www.wispa.org

 http://signup.wispa.org/
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Re: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...

2006-12-29 Thread George Rogato

Well I wish some Qwest customers would be as angry as you are and call me..

Ah, maybe not, I don't want angry customers!
:)



Mark Koskenmaki wrote:

That router, sitting about 12 inches from my monitor, is one of the most
failure prone, troublesome, annoying and horribly underperforming piles of
JUNK I have ever laid eyes upon.

Yeah, my HOUSE is not on my own wireless network...  And at the end of a day
with that router locking up more than a half dozen times, simply going
offline 1-5 times, and other inexplicable oddness (yes,  I acct ually own
2 of these actiontec piles of junk and this is the BETTER one of the two), I
can barely spit out the word Qwest without wanting to punch or strangle
someone.  To think that my CPE will often have uptimes in the months, with
uptimes being interrupted purely by power outages, I can't exactly profess
much faith in consumer routers, in comparison to the stuff I put on
someone's roof.

I recently ran across one of my cpe I logged into by mistake (typo on the
ip) and found the uptime matched almost to the day I recall replacing it due
to a lightning strike - just about 6 months.   My gateway and backhaul often
goes 4-6 months (and once got nearly 300 days) of uptime before a radio
crash required a reboot.

Build me a solution that works as reliably and solidly as these things I put
together myself and you got something...really got something.



+++
neofast.net - fast internet for North East Oregon and South East Washington
email me at mark at neofast dot net
541-969-8200
Direct commercial inquiries to purchasing at neofast dot net

- Original Message - 
From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 11:24 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...




Butch Evans wrote:
  It is my contention (and yours, it seems) that a router

at the CPE is necessary.


BINGO.

Qwest DSL has a router at every customer. Ever taken a look at what
those Actiontec wireless dsl routers do...

As we stated in an earlier thread, those pesky routers matter more than
our cpes, to the customer.


--
George Rogato

Welcome to WISPA

www.wispa.org

http://signup.wispa.org/
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Re: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...

2006-12-29 Thread Mark Koskenmaki

- Original Message - 
From: Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 11:51 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...


 Right guys, I accept all that may be true but even in the DSL world,
 customers provide their own routers and that is certainly true of
 commercial customers.

What planet do you live on?   Every DSL service I have seen in a LONG time
provides the dsl modem and router together as one device.


 In any event, VL does many of things for which you think make a router
 so critical. Even better, it does a lot of them at the RF level which
 makes the link and total network more efficient. Frankly though, I need
 one of my engineers in this type conversation; I'm just not technically
 competent enough on the networking side (and barely so in the nitty
 gritty of the RF side).

You  can't do routing, dhcp, firewalling, etc, at the RF level.


 At the same token, many here that are truly skilled remain under exposed
 on the RF side since most have not used truly sophisticated gear that
 allows for depths of tweaking beyond that which you have experienced.

What I use may not be sophisticated by your standards.   But if we look at
the overall picture,  attaching that high priced RF equipment to a linksys
router is like transplanting a pinto engine and gas tank into a humvee...

Frankly, I can't find that elusive somewhere between linksys and belkin
and the other end where imagestream and cisco live - well, except for what
I use... Which costs less and is dead reliable and excellent performing.


I
 have never encountered an old hand who, once thoroughly exposed to our
 firmware in a scaled system, did not say something along the lines of,
 Wow, I did not know that sort of thing could be even be done! or You
 mean that's all we have to do to do that? That always took me hours
 before! Basically, I think many of you have trained and become good
 street racers, but you've not yet become real race car drivers because
 you are still driving souped up street cars not realizing a real race
 car actually IS different.

Certainly most of us who deal with wifi-based gear are very much aware of
the limitations of the rf side of this setup.   It's no mystery, Patrick and
I think you grossly underestimate what we understand in that regard.
Perhaps alvarion c ould get into the business of providing a REAL mini-pci
radio, certified with various antennas, and then we'd have the better of
both worlds...




 Patrick Leary
 AVP WISP Markets
 Alvarion, Inc.
 o: 650.314.2628
 c: 760.580.0080
 Vonage: 650.641.1243
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of George Rogato
 Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 11:25 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...



 Butch Evans wrote:
   It is my contention (and yours, it seems) that a router
  at the CPE is necessary.
 

 BINGO.

 Qwest DSL has a router at every customer. Ever taken a look at what
 those Actiontec wireless dsl routers do...

 As we stated in an earlier thread, those pesky routers matter more than
 our cpes, to the customer.


 -- 
 George Rogato

 Welcome to WISPA

 www.wispa.org

 http://signup.wispa.org/
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 WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

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RE: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...

2006-12-29 Thread Patrick Leary
When a market knows it must contend with fraudulent product AND that a
good percentage of that market will support the fraud, what's the
decision you think vendors will make when it comes to prioritizing
investments in this business? Licensed or unlicensed? WISPs or a market
segment that buys only legal product? For Pete's sake people, you think
your actions don't have actual consequences just because you are staying
within the legal power limits? Some of you make guys make the jobs of
guys like me who seriously give a rip real, real hard.

So then while I congratulate Lonnie's innovation, he needs to come clean
and go legal. Sorry Lonnie, but yes if you are doing this it does gall
me. It galls me when folks outside our borders go around the legal paths
to our market. It's cheesy. It's dishonest. It's anti-competitive. And
it's simply illegal. You've done all the work, why not go legal? If not,
do you have any right to complain if someone copies your soft work and
sells it as his own? Or do you think, Hey, that's different, he's
damaging me! 

You guys may not like the rules, but they are there and the rest of us
have to abide by them and incur all the expense required to play by the
rules. 

And if you are an operator reading this, do you really think staying
under the legal power limit makes you righteous? It makes you no more
righteous that a guy beside you on the tower that does a beautiful NEC
poster child of an install but does not have legal right to use the
tower. 

I know many find this attitude insulting and I know as a vendor I'm
supposed to just hold my tongue so as not to piss people off, because
there will be those who might say, Because of that attitude I've never
buy one Alvarion radio! Maybe so, but I can accept that because this
stuff weakens all WISPs claims, all attempts to be regarded as
legitimate players, and it sucker punches all of us who fight on your
behalf.

For sure, in doing so you can't ever complain about the person that
sneaks into the ball game for free, right behind home plate, while you
and your family paid. Don't you ever complain that your neighbor's kid
gets a student grant because his parents hide income when yours can't
qualify because your family makes too much. Don't you ever complain
about a rancher or farmer getting over on you on water rights because no
one's looking. And don't complain about the Yahoo next door using an
illegal amp.

Illegal WISPs equivocate by saying, Hey, I'm within the power limits.
I'm not hurting anyone. Well, it's not true. You are hurting every
legitimate WISP and every legitimate vendor, and in turn you hurt the
entire industry. And some WISPs have the gall to say, why won't someone
build X? Well, maybe because so many WISPs to save themselves a buck
will buy illegal product that it discourages investment from legit
players. When a market knows it must contend with fraudulent product AND
that a good percentage of that market will support the fraud, what's the
decision you think vendors will make when it comes to prioritizing
investments?

And if I was a legal operator in the same market as an illegal
competitor, I'd for sure use that against them with respect to winning
roof and tower rights, fighting their interference in court, and
informing their customers of the risks. And that'd all be an entirely
fair and ethical approach.

Rant off. Sigh. G'night. Be safe this New Years. ...and BE LEGAL!


Patrick 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of George Rogato
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 11:36 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...

Then you must not be aware that Lonnie is now also selling the complete 
package.
The newest product is Star V3, Atheros cm9 and a gateworks customized 
board to Lonnies specs.

It's called the WAR board, or Wireless Advanced Router. They come in 2 
flavors, a 4 port 533MHz proc or a 2 port 266MHz proc, both with 2 
ethernets. Can do 5, 10, 20,,40MHz channel widths.

I have  better than 200 maybe 250 by now WAR boards in place with Pac 
Wireless Rootennas both 5 gig and 2 gig.

Recently I built a new pop using a water tank. My transfer rate from the

tank to my house gave me just under 30megs ftp across that link using a 
pair of 266's.

Most of the links I put in are 5 gig and I use the 2nd port for a 2 gig 
wifi ap for the immediate area.

I can honestly say that I can not remember having to reboot any of my 
war boards and 20 megs is not uncommon across my wireless man.








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RE: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...

2006-12-29 Thread Mac Dearman
Ryan,

  YES  YES!

I personally run about 30 MikroTik APs (Proxim, Trango and a few Tranzeo's)
and have been using Tranzeo CPE's exclusively for the last few years. It
works great. 

 I also know that Matt Larsen uses Tranzeo CPE exclusively (for years) and
he is a 100% dyed in the wool StarOS man with StarOS AP's and Tranzeo CPE
in at least 3 different States out west.

Pick your flavor and deploy with confidence!! :-)


Mac Dearman
Maximum Access, LLC.
Rayville, La.
www.inetsouth.com
www.radioresponse.org (Katrina relief)
www.mac-tel.us  (VoIP sales)
318.728.8600
318.728.9600
318.303.4182 


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of D. Ryan Spott
Sent: Friday, December 29, 2006 12:05 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...

Can anyone just answer the questions I had without fighting amongst  
yourselves? (I thought Xmas with the inlaws was bad!)

Lonnie... If I were to buy a StarOS type product, would it be  
compatable with the CPQ series radios from Tranzeo?

What sort of client load should I be able to support on a Star-OS  
based AP?



ryan


On Dec 28, 2006, at 10:01 PM, Lonnie Nunweiler wrote:

 Patrick,

 This is simply the LOWEST blow I have EVER seen you throw.  You have
 always been an Evangelist and I have seen you come and go from several
 lists, while me and my people have survived legal blind sides and we
 have outlived several LARGER companies.

 Yep, pretty low.  Plus it did not answer the question.  I feel I
 cannot jump in since I am too close to the product and thus might be
 seen as self serving.  What is your excuse?


 Lonnie


 On 12/28/06, Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  I mean, besides simply being illegal, such a vendor has
 no quality controls, they can also just up and walk away from you and
 quit anytime, they have no accountability, and it throws away your
 investment from an equity standpoint.


 Patrick Leary
 AVP WISP Markets
 Alvarion, Inc.
 o: 650.314.2628
 c: 760.580.0080
 Vonage: 650.641.1243
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:wireless- 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Butch Evans
 Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 9:00 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: RE: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...

 On Thu, 28 Dec 2006, Patrick Leary wrote:

 Why not stick with Tranzeo or one of the other legal
 (FCC-certified) brands?

 Good idea, Patrick, but it doesn't answer the question that was
 asked.

 --
 Butch Evans
 Network Engineering and Security Consulting
 573-276-2879
 http://www.butchevans.com/
 Mikrotik Certified Consultant
 (http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html)
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RE: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...

2006-12-29 Thread Rick Smith
Patrick, 

what exactly is this illegal hardware you're referring to ?

Can't be tranzeo


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Friday, December 29, 2006 1:19 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...

Lonnie,

Not sure why you are fired up. Your product is software that gets loaded
into hardware so I'm not talking about you. I'm talking about illegal
hardware and what is untrue about what I said about illegal hardware
suppliers?

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lonnie Nunweiler
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 10:02 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...

Patrick,

This is simply the LOWEST blow I have EVER seen you throw.  You have always
been an Evangelist and I have seen you come and go from several lists, while
me and my people have survived legal blind sides and we have outlived
several LARGER companies.

Yep, pretty low.  Plus it did not answer the question.  I feel I cannot jump
in since I am too close to the product and thus might be seen as self
serving.  What is your excuse?


Lonnie


On 12/28/06, Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  I mean, besides simply being illegal, such a vendor has no quality 
 controls, they can also just up and walk away from you and quit 
 anytime, they have no accountability, and it throws away your 
 investment from an equity standpoint.


 Patrick Leary
 AVP WISP Markets
 Alvarion, Inc.
 o: 650.314.2628
 c: 760.580.0080
 Vonage: 650.641.1243
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On
 Behalf Of Butch Evans
 Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 9:00 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: RE: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...

 On Thu, 28 Dec 2006, Patrick Leary wrote:

 Why not stick with Tranzeo or one of the other legal
 (FCC-certified) brands?

 Good idea, Patrick, but it doesn't answer the question that was asked.

 --
 Butch Evans
 Network Engineering and Security Consulting
 573-276-2879
 http://www.butchevans.com/
 Mikrotik Certified Consultant
 (http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html)
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Re: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...

2006-12-29 Thread Tom DeReggi

Lonnie,

Patrick has a valid point. Truthfully, its getting close to that time that 
there isn't a reason not to get certified.
The 533 Gateworks boards, atheros chipset cards, are getting to be pretty 
standard products, with consistent availabilty, that meet just about any 
need.
Thats much different than 2 years ago, when who knew what hardware would be 
used daily.
Why not get them certified with the Rootenna product, and then use the new 
FCC relaxed equivellent antenna rules, to list additional equivellent 
antenna?
I bet you could even get the cost covered by your buyers, if you took up a 
collection.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Lonnie Nunweiler [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 29, 2006 1:01 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...



Patrick,

This is simply the LOWEST blow I have EVER seen you throw.  You have
always been an Evangelist and I have seen you come and go from several
lists, while me and my people have survived legal blind sides and we
have outlived several LARGER companies.

Yep, pretty low.  Plus it did not answer the question.  I feel I
cannot jump in since I am too close to the product and thus might be
seen as self serving.  What is your excuse?


Lonnie


On 12/28/06, Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I mean, besides simply being illegal, such a vendor has
no quality controls, they can also just up and walk away from you and
quit anytime, they have no accountability, and it throws away your
investment from an equity standpoint.


Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Butch Evans
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 9:00 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...

On Thu, 28 Dec 2006, Patrick Leary wrote:

Why not stick with Tranzeo or one of the other legal
(FCC-certified) brands?

Good idea, Patrick, but it doesn't answer the question that was
asked.

--
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
573-276-2879
http://www.butchevans.com/
Mikrotik Certified Consultant
(http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html)
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Re: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...

2006-12-29 Thread John Scrivner
I think Patrick needs to build Lonnie a box. Star OS software / Alvarion 
radio. Look out!

:-)
Scriv


Patrick Leary wrote:


Lonnie, you are just doing what I wish I were smart enough to do --
write code people are willing to pay for. Software is always better than
hardware: you avoid FCC hassles, you have no hard shipping or packaging
costs, you need no production facilities, you don't have to negotiate
purchase of and stock components, you can live anywhere, it can be
instantly deployed, etc., etc.

I've nothing but respect for what you've done. 


For all the same reasons, I'd think you were insane if you went into
hardware in this business.

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lonnie Nunweiler
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 10:32 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...

Seemed kind close to my home is all.

All the Best in 2007.

Lonnie






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Re: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...

2006-12-29 Thread Lonnie Nunweiler
 their customers of the risks. And that'd all be an entirely
fair and ethical approach.

Rant off. Sigh. G'night. Be safe this New Years. ...and BE LEGAL!


Patrick

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of George Rogato
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 11:36 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...

Then you must not be aware that Lonnie is now also selling the complete
package.
The newest product is Star V3, Atheros cm9 and a gateworks customized
board to Lonnies specs.

It's called the WAR board, or Wireless Advanced Router. They come in 2
flavors, a 4 port 533MHz proc or a 2 port 266MHz proc, both with 2
ethernets. Can do 5, 10, 20,,40MHz channel widths.

I have  better than 200 maybe 250 by now WAR boards in place with Pac
Wireless Rootennas both 5 gig and 2 gig.

Recently I built a new pop using a water tank. My transfer rate from the

tank to my house gave me just under 30megs ftp across that link using a
pair of 266's.

Most of the links I put in are 5 gig and I use the 2nd port for a 2 gig
wifi ap for the immediate area.

I can honestly say that I can not remember having to reboot any of my
war boards and 20 megs is not uncommon across my wireless man.








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Re: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...

2006-12-29 Thread Rich Comroe
I worked for a manufacturer that certified product with the FCC.  The legality 
issue for FCC type acceptance can be argued in certain circumstances.  Truth 
is, we didn't re-apply for FCC type acceptance every time we changed a resistor 
value or made some board change or modified the software.  It's arguable that 
the need for FCC type acceptance is only required when a change in the product 
alters the rf modulation.  When it was clear to us that it did, we'd re-apply 
for FCC type acceptance.

If someone puts an FCC type accepted radio card into box with a single board 
computer combined with some OS on the SBC, I'm not sure there's any legality 
issue as far as the FCC is concerned.  I think the question is whether there's 
anything in the SBC  external software that's changed the rf characteristics 
of the radio card that's already been FCC type accepted.  If not ... why is it 
illegal?

Rich
  - Original Message - 
  From: Tom DeReggi 
  To: WISPA General List 
  Sent: Friday, December 29, 2006 9:44 AM
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...


  Lonnie,

  Patrick has a valid point. Truthfully, its getting close to that time that 
  there isn't a reason not to get certified.
  The 533 Gateworks boards, atheros chipset cards, are getting to be pretty 
  standard products, with consistent availabilty, that meet just about any 
  need.
  Thats much different than 2 years ago, when who knew what hardware would be 
  used daily.
  Why not get them certified with the Rootenna product, and then use the new 
  FCC relaxed equivellent antenna rules, to list additional equivellent 
  antenna?
  I bet you could even get the cost covered by your buyers, if you took up a 
  collection.

  Tom DeReggi
  RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
  IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


  - Original Message - 
  From: Lonnie Nunweiler [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
  Sent: Friday, December 29, 2006 1:01 AM
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...


   Patrick,
  
   This is simply the LOWEST blow I have EVER seen you throw.  You have
   always been an Evangelist and I have seen you come and go from several
   lists, while me and my people have survived legal blind sides and we
   have outlived several LARGER companies.
  
   Yep, pretty low.  Plus it did not answer the question.  I feel I
   cannot jump in since I am too close to the product and thus might be
   seen as self serving.  What is your excuse?
  
  
   Lonnie
  
  
   On 12/28/06, Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I mean, besides simply being illegal, such a vendor has
   no quality controls, they can also just up and walk away from you and
   quit anytime, they have no accountability, and it throws away your
   investment from an equity standpoint.
  
  
   Patrick Leary
   AVP WISP Markets
   Alvarion, Inc.
   o: 650.314.2628
   c: 760.580.0080
   Vonage: 650.641.1243
   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  
   -Original Message-
   From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
   Behalf Of Butch Evans
   Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 9:00 PM
   To: WISPA General List
   Subject: RE: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...
  
   On Thu, 28 Dec 2006, Patrick Leary wrote:
  
   Why not stick with Tranzeo or one of the other legal
   (FCC-certified) brands?
  
   Good idea, Patrick, but it doesn't answer the question that was
   asked.
  
   --
   Butch Evans
   Network Engineering and Security Consulting
   573-276-2879
   http://www.butchevans.com/
   Mikrotik Certified Consultant
   (http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html)
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Re: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...

2006-12-29 Thread Ryan Spott

N White wrote, On 12/28/2006 11:30 PM:

Nick. Is. A. God. (and has EXCELLENT reading comprehension!)
Correction. It's late, I'm tired, and have had too much wine. I meant 
that the TRCPQ is Atheros based, not TRCPE. This is from a Tranzeo list:



The CPE90 is Marvell.
The 900, the CPQ, the 6000, the 49, and the 5a are all Atheros based.
The CPE200, the 1000, 2000, 3000 and 4000 were Prism based.
The CPE80 was Atmel.
-Damian Wallace


I was looking for that Damian Wallace post!
Also, if you decide to go the StarOS/Mikrotik way, make sure you 
upgrade all of your Tranzeo gear to the latest firmwares.
All of my TRCPQ are up to date.. I have a script that does it for me. :) 
(pointing and clicking on each CPE/Q gets REALLY tiresome after a while!)


Thanks!

ryan
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Re: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...

2006-12-29 Thread John Scrivner
What about using external antennas? Doesn't that require FCC 
certification? I agree with everything you have said below with the 
exception of use of external antennas and amplifiers of course. I 
thought you needed a FCC system certification for systems made up of a 
radio and external pigtails, cables, antennas, etc. I like this 
discussion. We need to get to the heart of the legality issues of the 
equipment and systems we use. I would like to be 100% legal in all I do.

Scriv


Rich Comroe wrote:


I worked for a manufacturer that certified product with the FCC.  The legality 
issue for FCC type acceptance can be argued in certain circumstances.  Truth 
is, we didn't re-apply for FCC type acceptance every time we changed a resistor 
value or made some board change or modified the software.  It's arguable that 
the need for FCC type acceptance is only required when a change in the product 
alters the rf modulation.  When it was clear to us that it did, we'd re-apply 
for FCC type acceptance.

If someone puts an FCC type accepted radio card into box with a single board 
computer combined with some OS on the SBC, I'm not sure there's any legality issue 
as far as the FCC is concerned.  I think the question is whether there's anything 
in the SBC  external software that's changed the rf characteristics of the 
radio card that's already been FCC type accepted.  If not ... why is it illegal?

Rich
 - Original Message - 
 From: Tom DeReggi 
 To: WISPA General List 
 Sent: Friday, December 29, 2006 9:44 AM

 Subject: Re: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...


 Lonnie,

 Patrick has a valid point. Truthfully, its getting close to that time that 
 there isn't a reason not to get certified.
 The 533 Gateworks boards, atheros chipset cards, are getting to be pretty 
 standard products, with consistent availabilty, that meet just about any 
 need.
 Thats much different than 2 years ago, when who knew what hardware would be 
 used daily.
 Why not get them certified with the Rootenna product, and then use the new 
 FCC relaxed equivellent antenna rules, to list additional equivellent 
 antenna?
 I bet you could even get the cost covered by your buyers, if you took up a 
 collection.


 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


 - Original Message - 
 From: Lonnie Nunweiler [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Friday, December 29, 2006 1:01 AM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...


  Patrick,
 
  This is simply the LOWEST blow I have EVER seen you throw.  You have
  always been an Evangelist and I have seen you come and go from several
  lists, while me and my people have survived legal blind sides and we
  have outlived several LARGER companies.
 
  Yep, pretty low.  Plus it did not answer the question.  I feel I
  cannot jump in since I am too close to the product and thus might be
  seen as self serving.  What is your excuse?
 
 
  Lonnie
 
 
  On 12/28/06, Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   I mean, besides simply being illegal, such a vendor has
  no quality controls, they can also just up and walk away from you and
  quit anytime, they have no accountability, and it throws away your
  investment from an equity standpoint.
 
 
  Patrick Leary
  AVP WISP Markets
  Alvarion, Inc.
  o: 650.314.2628
  c: 760.580.0080
  Vonage: 650.641.1243
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
  -Original Message-
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
  Behalf Of Butch Evans
  Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 9:00 PM
  To: WISPA General List
  Subject: RE: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...
 
  On Thu, 28 Dec 2006, Patrick Leary wrote:
 
  Why not stick with Tranzeo or one of the other legal
  (FCC-certified) brands?
 
  Good idea, Patrick, but it doesn't answer the question that was
  asked.
 
  --
  Butch Evans
  Network Engineering and Security Consulting
  573-276-2879
  http://www.butchevans.com/
  Mikrotik Certified Consultant
  (http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html)
  --
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  Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
  http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
 
  Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
 
 
 
  
  
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Re: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...

2006-12-29 Thread Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181
OK, lets be clear on what the rules are today guys.  (Why did I know that 
THIS thread was gonna turn out to be a ton of fun (said the pot to the 
kettle))


Here's how it works.  If you have a AP out there it can have a MAX output of 
4 watts.  36dB.  That holds true for 900, 2.4 and 5.8 bands.  I forget what 
the strange 5.7 unii band rules are but I think they are 4 watt also, at the 
ap.


The 5.2 (some call it the 5.3) gig band has a 1 watt limit.

As for antenna choices, you can use any antenna of the SAME type as long as 
it's of equal or lower gain AND the same type.  If you are using an ap radio 
(doesn't matter if it's in a tranzeo box, war board or mt or whatever 
anymore) certified with a 15 dB vpol omni then you can use any vpol omni of 
similar in and out of band specs that's 15 dB or less.  Want to run a 15 dB 
hpol omni?  Nope, gotta go get it certified with that (I could be wrong on 
this one but I don't think so).  Certainly if you want to put a sector on, 
so sorry, no can do.  Unless that is, it's certified with *A* sector.


Here's the really fun part.  Under the NEW rules (from a year or two ago) if 
you want to run an amp it has to be a part of a COMPLETE system.  AND the 
devices have to be keyed to each other.  Meaning that the ap and the amp 
have to have unique connectors or be electronically keyed to each other. 
Thanks Michael Young formerly of YDI.


On the cpe side things get even more fun. I'm only gonna talk about ISM 
rules as I keep forgetting exactly what the UNII rules are and few mix and 
match in the UNII band anyway.


900 mhz
4 watts max.  You can use any antenna you want as long as it's of the same 
type (grid, yagi, panel) and similar specs as the LARGEST one certified with 
the radio.  If they certified a 20 dB yagi, you can use almost any yagi 
that's 20dB or less.  If they certified no yagis you can't use one.


2.4 ghz
Starts at 4 watts.  30 dB of radio output and 6dB of antenna gain.  For ever 
dB you reduce the radio output you can raise the antenna gain by 3dB.  At 24 
dB of radio output (250mw) you can put on a 24dB grid.  This gives you a 
total of 60 watts of output.  Same rules apply though.  If the radio isn't 
certified with a grid antenna or with one that's less than 24 dB you can't 
do this.  Make sure that your radio manufacturers are certifying everything 
with the LARGEST antenna of all common types!  If they aren't certified 
with anything but a consumer grade rubber ducky, we can't legally use the 
radios.


5.8 ghz
Starts with 4 watts.  30dB of radio output and 6 dB of antenna gain.  Go as 
big as you want with the antennas, no need to drop the radio power.  Same 
other rules about certification apply.


Is my network perfect?  Nope.  Is it all within eirp limits?  You bet. 
Well, I've got one sector that used to be an omni and I need to pull our the 
amp but I'll save that project for better weather.  And it's only hurting me 
(does create a LOT of interference on one of my other systems in town).  Do 
I go around bragging about, or complaining about compliance issues?  Nope.


That said, I'm working very hard to correct any compliance issues we have. 
It'll take another year or two, but I'll have everything certified.  Things 
are growing too fast and getting too good to think that we can stay under 
the radar.  Eventually there will have to be a crack down.  Or another 
change in the rules.  I'm not sure which will happen, I prefer at least an 
eirp crackdown.  It's hard enough competing in this industry without a bunch 
of people that don't understand that more is not better most of the time 
screwing up the airways.  (BTW, that's the bad thing about rec. thresholds. 
They tend to raise the overall noise floor which, in the end, is the same as 
running more amps out there.)


If you hire a consultant that doesn't at least explain all of this to you, 
go hire a new consultant.  The one you have either doesn't know the rules or 
he's only in it to take your money.  And if he'll take your money without 
worrying about your long term legality, what else will he do to you?


Let the Marlon bashing begin!
Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 11:36 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...


Then you must not be aware that Lonnie is now also selling the complete 
package.
The newest product is Star V3, Atheros cm9 and a gateworks customized 
board to Lonnies specs.


It's called the WAR board, or Wireless Advanced Router. They come in 2 
flavors, a 4 port 533MHz proc or a 2 port 266MHz proc, both with 2 
ethernets. Can do 5, 10

RE: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...

2006-12-29 Thread chris cooper
Hire Jack Unger. He was patient enough to beat all the rules into my
head eventually.

C

If you hire a consultant that doesn't at least explain all of this to
you, 
go hire a new consultant.  The one you have either doesn't know the
rules or 
he's only in it to take your money.  And if he'll take your money
without 
worrying about your long term legality, what else will he do to you?



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Re: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...

2006-12-29 Thread Rich Comroe
Well said.  You've covered issues in deploying your FCC certified radio product 
with various pre-approved antennas.

Now, when it comes to selling a box with a computer and radio in it, the 
questions are a bit different.  If it's a radio integrated onto a computer 
board, my belief it that it's got to be FCC accepted, certified, and bear the 
FCC ID, FCC certified label, and of course the This device complies with Part 
15 of FCC Rules ... blah, blah, blah.  If you're having a board manufactured 
with the 802.11a chips on it, I think you've got to get tested  certified.

On the other hand, if you're integrating an SBC with a radio card manufactured 
by another vendor who has already certified the card (it has the FCC ID, FCC 
certified logo, the Part 15 compliance) then I'm at a loss as to why this is 
not completely legal.  You're not a manufacturer ... you're an integrator.  I 
can't see why you'd need to re-test and certified a box with a radio that 
already bears the FCC certification.  If you need to re-certify, then BestBuy'd 
need to certify to sell you a PC with the LAN card installed, CompUSA'd need to 
certify, etc.

But if you integrate a certified radio, and reflash its code in a way that 
modifies its modulation behavior, then you've become a radio manufacturer ... 
and you need to actually go through a complete FCC type acceptance testing.  
However, in my opinion it's got to be modified at layer 1 (physical layer) to 
require this.  Changing the Media Access Control (layer 2) or above is just not 
grounds to require re-certification IMHO.

Disclaimer:  I am not a lawyer, nor have ever played a lawyer on TV.  I am 
actually not qualified to comment on the topics I have just commented on!  :-)  
They are just my ignorant opinions, and I'd greatly appreciate anyone who could 
kick some sense into me should I be all wet.

Peace,
Rich
  - Original Message - 
  From: Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 
  To: WISPA General List 
  Sent: Friday, December 29, 2006 12:03 PM
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...


  OK, lets be clear on what the rules are today guys.  (Why did I know that 
  THIS thread was gonna turn out to be a ton of fun (said the pot to the 
  kettle))

  Here's how it works.  If you have a AP out there it can have a MAX output of 
  4 watts.  36dB.  That holds true for 900, 2.4 and 5.8 bands.  I forget what 
  the strange 5.7 unii band rules are but I think they are 4 watt also, at the 
  ap.

  The 5.2 (some call it the 5.3) gig band has a 1 watt limit.

  As for antenna choices, you can use any antenna of the SAME type as long as 
  it's of equal or lower gain AND the same type.  If you are using an ap radio 
  (doesn't matter if it's in a tranzeo box, war board or mt or whatever 
  anymore) certified with a 15 dB vpol omni then you can use any vpol omni of 
  similar in and out of band specs that's 15 dB or less.  Want to run a 15 dB 
  hpol omni?  Nope, gotta go get it certified with that (I could be wrong on 
  this one but I don't think so).  Certainly if you want to put a sector on, 
  so sorry, no can do.  Unless that is, it's certified with *A* sector.

  Here's the really fun part.  Under the NEW rules (from a year or two ago) if 
  you want to run an amp it has to be a part of a COMPLETE system.  AND the 
  devices have to be keyed to each other.  Meaning that the ap and the amp 
  have to have unique connectors or be electronically keyed to each other. 
  Thanks Michael Young formerly of YDI.

  On the cpe side things get even more fun. I'm only gonna talk about ISM 
  rules as I keep forgetting exactly what the UNII rules are and few mix and 
  match in the UNII band anyway.

  900 mhz
  4 watts max.  You can use any antenna you want as long as it's of the same 
  type (grid, yagi, panel) and similar specs as the LARGEST one certified with 
  the radio.  If they certified a 20 dB yagi, you can use almost any yagi 
  that's 20dB or less.  If they certified no yagis you can't use one.

  2.4 ghz
  Starts at 4 watts.  30 dB of radio output and 6dB of antenna gain.  For ever 
  dB you reduce the radio output you can raise the antenna gain by 3dB.  At 24 
  dB of radio output (250mw) you can put on a 24dB grid.  This gives you a 
  total of 60 watts of output.  Same rules apply though.  If the radio isn't 
  certified with a grid antenna or with one that's less than 24 dB you can't 
  do this.  Make sure that your radio manufacturers are certifying everything 
  with the LARGEST antenna of all common types!  If they aren't certified 
  with anything but a consumer grade rubber ducky, we can't legally use the 
  radios.

  5.8 ghz
  Starts with 4 watts.  30dB of radio output and 6 dB of antenna gain.  Go as 
  big as you want with the antennas, no need to drop the radio power.  Same 
  other rules about certification apply.

  Is my network perfect?  Nope.  Is it all within eirp limits?  You bet. 
  Well, I've got one sector that used

Re: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...

2006-12-29 Thread Matt Larsen - Lists

Hi Ryan,

My favorite AP setup for 2.4 is StarOS/Orinoco card/YDI amplifier/YDI 
180deg sector antenna - however some of these parts are getting harder 
to find and/or don't work for a lot of situations.  So here is the most 
common one that I am deploying as of late:


StarOS/prism2511/tranzeo h-pol sector

A WRAP with a 2511 will serve about 50 or 60 customers in 2.4.

A loaded up PC with four Orinoco cards and four sectors will serve about 
250-260 customers.  Some have said that you can do more, but that is the 
most I've been able to do at one site. 

If you don't need radius authentication, or want to use hotspot-style 
authentication, I'm sure that a WRAP board with one of the new atheros 
chipset b/g cards would probably be the most compatible with a CPQ.


FWIW, I have 1000+ subs on my staros access points, and the breakdown is 
probably 50% 200-15, 30% 80-15 and 20% CPQ radios.   The CPQs are the 
best of them all for performance, reliability and ease of installation.


Hope that helps.  I'll take a shot at the other issues surfacing in this 
thread later.  :^)


Matt Larsen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



Ryan Spott wrote:

N White wrote, On 12/28/2006 11:30 PM:

Nick. Is. A. God. (and has EXCELLENT reading comprehension!)
Correction. It's late, I'm tired, and have had too much wine. I meant 
that the TRCPQ is Atheros based, not TRCPE. This is from a Tranzeo list:



The CPE90 is Marvell.
The 900, the CPQ, the 6000, the 49, and the 5a are all Atheros based.
The CPE200, the 1000, 2000, 3000 and 4000 were Prism based.
The CPE80 was Atmel.
-Damian Wallace


I was looking for that Damian Wallace post!
Also, if you decide to go the StarOS/Mikrotik way, make sure you 
upgrade all of your Tranzeo gear to the latest firmwares.
All of my TRCPQ are up to date.. I have a script that does it for me. 
:) (pointing and clicking on each CPE/Q gets REALLY tiresome after a 
while!)


Thanks!

ryan


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RE: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...

2006-12-29 Thread Mark McElvy
In general what is considered a better combination, lower powered radio
w/ higher gain antenna or higher powered radio w/ lower gain antenna?

Mark

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181
Sent: Friday, December 29, 2006 12:04 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...

OK, lets be clear on what the rules are today guys.  (Why did I know
that 
THIS thread was gonna turn out to be a ton of fun (said the pot to the 
kettle))

Here's how it works.  If you have a AP out there it can have a MAX
output of 
4 watts.  36dB.  That holds true for 900, 2.4 and 5.8 bands.  I forget
what 
the strange 5.7 unii band rules are but I think they are 4 watt also, at
the 
ap.

The 5.2 (some call it the 5.3) gig band has a 1 watt limit.

As for antenna choices, you can use any antenna of the SAME type as long
as 
it's of equal or lower gain AND the same type.  If you are using an ap
radio 
(doesn't matter if it's in a tranzeo box, war board or mt or whatever 
anymore) certified with a 15 dB vpol omni then you can use any vpol omni
of 
similar in and out of band specs that's 15 dB or less.  Want to run a 15
dB 
hpol omni?  Nope, gotta go get it certified with that (I could be wrong
on 
this one but I don't think so).  Certainly if you want to put a sector
on, 
so sorry, no can do.  Unless that is, it's certified with *A* sector.

Here's the really fun part.  Under the NEW rules (from a year or two
ago) if 
you want to run an amp it has to be a part of a COMPLETE system.  AND
the 
devices have to be keyed to each other.  Meaning that the ap and the amp

have to have unique connectors or be electronically keyed to each other.

Thanks Michael Young formerly of YDI.

On the cpe side things get even more fun. I'm only gonna talk about ISM 
rules as I keep forgetting exactly what the UNII rules are and few mix
and 
match in the UNII band anyway.

900 mhz
4 watts max.  You can use any antenna you want as long as it's of the
same 
type (grid, yagi, panel) and similar specs as the LARGEST one certified
with 
the radio.  If they certified a 20 dB yagi, you can use almost any yagi 
that's 20dB or less.  If they certified no yagis you can't use one.

2.4 ghz
Starts at 4 watts.  30 dB of radio output and 6dB of antenna gain.  For
ever 
dB you reduce the radio output you can raise the antenna gain by 3dB.
At 24 
dB of radio output (250mw) you can put on a 24dB grid.  This gives you a

total of 60 watts of output.  Same rules apply though.  If the radio
isn't 
certified with a grid antenna or with one that's less than 24 dB you
can't 
do this.  Make sure that your radio manufacturers are certifying
everything 
with the LARGEST antenna of all common types!  If they aren't
certified 
with anything but a consumer grade rubber ducky, we can't legally use
the 
radios.

5.8 ghz
Starts with 4 watts.  30dB of radio output and 6 dB of antenna gain.  Go
as 
big as you want with the antennas, no need to drop the radio power.
Same 
other rules about certification apply.

Is my network perfect?  Nope.  Is it all within eirp limits?  You bet. 
Well, I've got one sector that used to be an omni and I need to pull our
the 
amp but I'll save that project for better weather.  And it's only
hurting me 
(does create a LOT of interference on one of my other systems in town).
Do 
I go around bragging about, or complaining about compliance issues?
Nope.

That said, I'm working very hard to correct any compliance issues we
have. 
It'll take another year or two, but I'll have everything certified.
Things 
are growing too fast and getting too good to think that we can stay
under 
the radar.  Eventually there will have to be a crack down.  Or another 
change in the rules.  I'm not sure which will happen, I prefer at least
an 
eirp crackdown.  It's hard enough competing in this industry without a
bunch 
of people that don't understand that more is not better most of the time

screwing up the airways.  (BTW, that's the bad thing about rec.
thresholds. 
They tend to raise the overall noise floor which, in the end, is the
same as 
running more amps out there.)

If you hire a consultant that doesn't at least explain all of this to
you, 
go hire a new consultant.  The one you have either doesn't know the
rules or 
he's only in it to take your money.  And if he'll take your money
without 
worrying about your long term legality, what else will he do to you?

Let the Marlon bashing begin!
Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 11:36 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA

Re: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...

2006-12-29 Thread George Rogato

Mark McElvy wrote:

In general what is considered a better combination, lower powered radio
w/ higher gain antenna or higher powered radio w/ lower gain antenna?

Mark


Rule of thumbs, keep the beamwidth to a minimum and use the lowest power 
needed to get the job done. These two rules will let  lots of people 
play in the same sandbox and give you the best performance.


George

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Re: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...

2006-12-29 Thread Carl A jeptha
I have used a tr5a against an MT AP and no problems. I also use Tranzeo 
6000 for AP's and really don't see them slowing down. They also act as 
Backhaul AP's (at the same time) in PTMP mode for other microcell 
backhauls. Granted we don't have amount of clients that you have. We 
actually use the CPQ as a Backhaul CPE for some of our lighter 
microcells. My main Gateway is an MT, my Router board (with a valid 
License) is packed away waiting for me to decide something great to do 
with it. Come on Butch tell me something :-)


This why I like to follow a standard, Tranzeo knows (in no uncertain 
terms) that I will replace them, just like I did the Smartbridges, CB3's 
and Demarc's, but I still have Hawking HWBA11's out their (Damn 
customers can't see anything wring with them). This is my company and I 
run it my way not their way.



You have a good day now,en mag jou more's ook so wees.

Carl A Jeptha
http://www.jeptha.com
905-349-2027
skype cajeptha



Ryan Spott wrote:

N White wrote, On 12/28/2006 11:30 PM:

Nick. Is. A. God. (and has EXCELLENT reading comprehension!)
Correction. It's late, I'm tired, and have had too much wine. I meant 
that the TRCPQ is Atheros based, not TRCPE. This is from a Tranzeo list:



The CPE90 is Marvell.
The 900, the CPQ, the 6000, the 49, and the 5a are all Atheros based.
The CPE200, the 1000, 2000, 3000 and 4000 were Prism based.
The CPE80 was Atmel.
-Damian Wallace


I was looking for that Damian Wallace post!
Also, if you decide to go the StarOS/Mikrotik way, make sure you 
upgrade all of your Tranzeo gear to the latest firmwares.
All of my TRCPQ are up to date.. I have a script that does it for me. 
:) (pointing and clicking on each CPE/Q gets REALLY tiresome after a 
while!)


Thanks!

ryan

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RE: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...

2006-12-29 Thread Jeff Broadwick
Hi Ryan,

I realize this is somewhat tangential to your main point, but I wanted to
point out that EIGRP/IGRP aren't standard protocols, nor will they work with
any other router, necessarily.  If you are shying away from proprietary
equipment, Cisco's proprietary routing protocols are the last things you
should be using. 

Regards,

Jeff

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of D. Ryan Spott
Sent: Friday, December 29, 2006 12:15 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...

On Dec 28, 2006, at 8:44 PM, Patrick Leary wrote:

 Ryan,

 Why not stick with Tranzeo or one of the other legal (FCC-
 certified) brands?

Are you trying to troll? :) I am using all Tranzeo gear now. I am also
looking for other options. I have 2 6500 series radios up at this site. They
are currently sucking wind with 30 clients each.

I ask about the Mikrotik/Star-OS stuff as it appears that there is nothing
illegal about them.

I find this analogous to my father in law building a kit Cobra in his barn.
As long as all the parts fit together in a compatible and non- dangerous way
then they are considered safe and licensable by the local DMV.

 There's no need to go the illegal route and that includes even price 
 these days. Plus, with a legal product you'll get the benefit of 
 support and a warranty.

Even with support and a warranty I find myself hesitant to add additional
clients to this setup. I see others on this list using these other products
with decent support from the community and it seems, reasonable results.

I like the Alvarion stuff, I really do. But I have seen entire
countys/states get messed over by buying a proprietary system and then the
system creator suddenly goes under or pulls a Motorola and forces a
multi-million dollar upgrade. I tend to shy away from proprietary equipment
unless it is able to use standardized protocols (like Cisco's EIGRP vs IGRP
routing. You use the Enhanced if you use all Cisco, but plain non-enhanced
compatible with any other router if you don't want the wiz-bang stuff.)

Now. I ask again the last question: What works with the Tranzeo CPQ clients?
Do you know? ! :)

ryan


 Patrick Leary
 AVP WISP Markets
 Alvarion, Inc.
 o: 650.314.2628
 c: 760.580.0080
 Vonage: 650.641.1243
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:wireless- [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 On Behalf Of D. Ryan Spott
 Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 8:22 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...

 Sorry for the cross post.

 I am looking at replacing my array of TR6500s with something that can 
 handle more than 30 concurrent users in a graceful manner.

 I have been looking at the Microtik line of products with an SR2 400mW 
 Atheros radio in it.

 I know Matt Larsen uses StarOS with Lucent Cards

 Does anyone have any input as to what direction to go?

 What works with the Tranzeo CPQ clients?

 Thanks!

 ryan


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Re: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...

2006-12-29 Thread Butch Evans

On Fri, 29 Dec 2006, Carl A jeptha wrote:

Backhaul CPE for some of our lighter microcells. My main Gateway is 
an MT, my Router board (with a valid License) is packed away 
waiting for me to decide something great to do with it. Come on 
Butch tell me something :-)


Ummmyou can send it to me.  :-)


--
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
573-276-2879
http://www.butchevans.com/
Mikrotik Certified Consultant
(http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html)
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RE: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...

2006-12-28 Thread Patrick Leary
Ryan,

Why not stick with Tranzeo or one of the other legal (FCC-certified)
brands? There's no need to go the illegal route and that includes even
price these days. Plus, with a legal product you'll get the benefit of
support and a warranty.

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of D. Ryan Spott
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 8:22 PM
To: WISPA General List
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...

Sorry for the cross post.

I am looking at replacing my array of TR6500s with something that can  
handle more than 30 concurrent users in a graceful manner.

I have been looking at the Microtik line of products with an SR2  
400mW Atheros radio in it.

I know Matt Larsen uses StarOS with Lucent Cards

Does anyone have any input as to what direction to go?

What works with the Tranzeo CPQ clients?

Thanks!

ryan


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Re: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...

2006-12-28 Thread Butch Evans

On Thu, 28 Dec 2006, D. Ryan Spott wrote:

I have been looking at the Microtik line of products with an SR2 
400mW Atheros radio in it.



Does anyone have any input as to what direction to go?


Really, this depends on what you want the AP to actually do (other 
than be a simple AP).  I like the Mikrotik platform because it 
offers a LOT of flexibility beyond just a simple AP.



What works with the Tranzeo CPQ clients?


Many things work with this product, including Mikrotik and StarOS.

--
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
573-276-2879
http://www.butchevans.com/
Mikrotik Certified Consultant
(http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html)
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Re: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...

2006-12-28 Thread D. Ryan Spott


On Dec 28, 2006, at 8:52 PM, Butch Evans wrote:


On Thu, 28 Dec 2006, D. Ryan Spott wrote:

I have been looking at the Microtik line of products with an SR2  
400mW Atheros radio in it.



Does anyone have any input as to what direction to go?


Really, this depends on what you want the AP to actually do (other  
than be a simple AP).  I like the Mikrotik platform because it  
offers a LOT of flexibility beyond just a simple AP.


I agree. Other than some *cough*open source*cough*licensing  
issues*cough* I can see that there is lots that can be done with the  
Microtik.



What works with the Tranzeo CPQ clients?


Many things work with this product, including Mikrotik and StarOS.


Specifically? What do you use? or what do you see your clients using?  
What works? Before I go and spend my money on a product, any product,  
I ask around to see what works and what does not.


ryan


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RE: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...

2006-12-28 Thread Butch Evans

On Thu, 28 Dec 2006, Patrick Leary wrote:

Why not stick with Tranzeo or one of the other legal 
(FCC-certified) brands?


Good idea, Patrick, but it doesn't answer the question that was 
asked.


--
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
573-276-2879
http://www.butchevans.com/
Mikrotik Certified Consultant
(http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html)
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Re: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...

2006-12-28 Thread D. Ryan Spott

On Dec 28, 2006, at 8:44 PM, Patrick Leary wrote:


Ryan,

Why not stick with Tranzeo or one of the other legal (FCC- 
certified) brands?


Are you trying to troll? :) I am using all Tranzeo gear now. I am  
also looking for other options. I have 2 6500 series radios up at  
this site. They are currently sucking wind with 30 clients each.


I ask about the Mikrotik/Star-OS stuff as it appears that there is  
nothing illegal about them.


I find this analogous to my father in law building a kit Cobra in his  
barn. As long as all the parts fit together in a compatible and non- 
dangerous way then they are considered safe and licensable by the  
local DMV.


There's no need to go the illegal route and that includes even  
price these days. Plus, with a legal product you'll get the benefit  
of support and a warranty.


Even with support and a warranty I find myself hesitant to add  
additional clients to this setup. I see others on this list using  
these other products with decent support from the community and it  
seems, reasonable results.


I like the Alvarion stuff, I really do. But I have seen entire  
countys/states get messed over by buying a proprietary system and  
then the system creator suddenly goes under or pulls a Motorola and  
forces a multi-million dollar upgrade. I tend to shy away from  
proprietary equipment unless it is able to use standardized protocols  
(like Cisco's EIGRP vs IGRP routing. You use the Enhanced if you use  
all Cisco, but plain non-enhanced compatible with any other router if  
you don't want the wiz-bang stuff.)


Now. I ask again the last question: What works with the Tranzeo CPQ  
clients? Do you know? ! :)


ryan



Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:wireless- 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] On

Behalf Of D. Ryan Spott
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 8:22 PM
To: WISPA General List
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...

Sorry for the cross post.

I am looking at replacing my array of TR6500s with something that can
handle more than 30 concurrent users in a graceful manner.

I have been looking at the Microtik line of products with an SR2
400mW Atheros radio in it.

I know Matt Larsen uses StarOS with Lucent Cards

Does anyone have any input as to what direction to go?

What works with the Tranzeo CPQ clients?

Thanks!

ryan


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RE: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...

2006-12-28 Thread Patrick Leary
Butch, I wasn't trying to answer the question. I was asking one. I
honestly do not understand the motivation these days for going the
illegal route. I mean, besides simply being illegal, such a vendor has
no quality controls, they can also just up and walk away from you and
quit anytime, they have no accountability, and it throws away your
investment from an equity standpoint.

Legal options, ours or others, are far more attractive today for almost
every reason -- legal, technical and economic.

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Butch Evans
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 9:00 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...

On Thu, 28 Dec 2006, Patrick Leary wrote:

Why not stick with Tranzeo or one of the other legal 
(FCC-certified) brands?

Good idea, Patrick, but it doesn't answer the question that was 
asked.

-- 
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
573-276-2879
http://www.butchevans.com/
Mikrotik Certified Consultant
(http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html)
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RE: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...

2006-12-28 Thread Patrick Leary
I've been around here for 8 years (well, WISP lists in general) so I
can't be a troll in my own house! :) And this is not about Alvarion,
it's about legal vs. illegal systems.

As much as I like kit cars Ryan (I always thought it'd be cool to build
one), your analogy is incorrect. The FCC certifies assembled systems.
This is not a matter of opinion. 

Now will the FCC hunt you down for it? No, but they don't half to. It
leaves you vulnerable to local competitors who could use your illegality
to push their agenda in a civil court with a halfway smart telecom
attorney (another Part 15 has no protections against other Part 15
users, but you'd not be a Part 15 user, you'd be an illegal user).

For this reason alone it might make your investment worthless in the
eyes of most who might otherwise want to buy you out.

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of D. Ryan Spott
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 9:15 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...

On Dec 28, 2006, at 8:44 PM, Patrick Leary wrote:

 Ryan,

 Why not stick with Tranzeo or one of the other legal (FCC- 
 certified) brands?

Are you trying to troll? :) I am using all Tranzeo gear now. I am  
also looking for other options. I have 2 6500 series radios up at  
this site. They are currently sucking wind with 30 clients each.

I ask about the Mikrotik/Star-OS stuff as it appears that there is  
nothing illegal about them.

I find this analogous to my father in law building a kit Cobra in his  
barn. As long as all the parts fit together in a compatible and non- 
dangerous way then they are considered safe and licensable by the  
local DMV.

 There's no need to go the illegal route and that includes even  
 price these days. Plus, with a legal product you'll get the benefit  
 of support and a warranty.

Even with support and a warranty I find myself hesitant to add  
additional clients to this setup. I see others on this list using  
these other products with decent support from the community and it  
seems, reasonable results.

I like the Alvarion stuff, I really do. But I have seen entire  
countys/states get messed over by buying a proprietary system and  
then the system creator suddenly goes under or pulls a Motorola and  
forces a multi-million dollar upgrade. I tend to shy away from  
proprietary equipment unless it is able to use standardized protocols  
(like Cisco's EIGRP vs IGRP routing. You use the Enhanced if you use  
all Cisco, but plain non-enhanced compatible with any other router if  
you don't want the wiz-bang stuff.)

Now. I ask again the last question: What works with the Tranzeo CPQ  
clients? Do you know? ! :)

ryan


 Patrick Leary
 AVP WISP Markets
 Alvarion, Inc.
 o: 650.314.2628
 c: 760.580.0080
 Vonage: 650.641.1243
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:wireless- 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of D. Ryan Spott
 Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 8:22 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...

 Sorry for the cross post.

 I am looking at replacing my array of TR6500s with something that can
 handle more than 30 concurrent users in a graceful manner.

 I have been looking at the Microtik line of products with an SR2
 400mW Atheros radio in it.

 I know Matt Larsen uses StarOS with Lucent Cards

 Does anyone have any input as to what direction to go?

 What works with the Tranzeo CPQ clients?

 Thanks!

 ryan


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Re: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...

2006-12-28 Thread Lonnie Nunweiler

Patrick,

This is simply the LOWEST blow I have EVER seen you throw.  You have
always been an Evangelist and I have seen you come and go from several
lists, while me and my people have survived legal blind sides and we
have outlived several LARGER companies.

Yep, pretty low.  Plus it did not answer the question.  I feel I
cannot jump in since I am too close to the product and thus might be
seen as self serving.  What is your excuse?


Lonnie


On 12/28/06, Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I mean, besides simply being illegal, such a vendor has
no quality controls, they can also just up and walk away from you and
quit anytime, they have no accountability, and it throws away your
investment from an equity standpoint.


Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Butch Evans
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 9:00 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...

On Thu, 28 Dec 2006, Patrick Leary wrote:

Why not stick with Tranzeo or one of the other legal
(FCC-certified) brands?

Good idea, Patrick, but it doesn't answer the question that was
asked.

--
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
573-276-2879
http://www.butchevans.com/
Mikrotik Certified Consultant
(http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html)
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Valemount Networks Corporation
http://www.star-os.com/
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Re: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...

2006-12-28 Thread D. Ryan Spott
Can anyone just answer the questions I had without fighting amongst  
yourselves? (I thought Xmas with the inlaws was bad!)


Lonnie... If I were to buy a StarOS type product, would it be  
compatable with the CPQ series radios from Tranzeo?


What sort of client load should I be able to support on a Star-OS  
based AP?




ryan


On Dec 28, 2006, at 10:01 PM, Lonnie Nunweiler wrote:


Patrick,

This is simply the LOWEST blow I have EVER seen you throw.  You have
always been an Evangelist and I have seen you come and go from several
lists, while me and my people have survived legal blind sides and we
have outlived several LARGER companies.

Yep, pretty low.  Plus it did not answer the question.  I feel I
cannot jump in since I am too close to the product and thus might be
seen as self serving.  What is your excuse?


Lonnie


On 12/28/06, Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I mean, besides simply being illegal, such a vendor has
no quality controls, they can also just up and walk away from you and
quit anytime, they have no accountability, and it throws away your
investment from an equity standpoint.


Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:wireless- 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] On

Behalf Of Butch Evans
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 9:00 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...

On Thu, 28 Dec 2006, Patrick Leary wrote:

Why not stick with Tranzeo or one of the other legal
(FCC-certified) brands?

Good idea, Patrick, but it doesn't answer the question that was
asked.

--
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
573-276-2879
http://www.butchevans.com/
Mikrotik Certified Consultant
(http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html)
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Valemount Networks Corporation
http://www.star-os.com/
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Re: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...

2006-12-28 Thread Butch Evans

On Thu, 28 Dec 2006, D. Ryan Spott wrote:

I agree. Other than some *cough*open source*cough*licensing 
issues*cough* I can see that there is lots that can be done with 
the Microtik.


Open source has nothing to do with it.  Mikrotik does adhere to the 
open source licensing requirement.  As for FCC certification, that 
is another story.  I am not aware of anyone who has certified any 
system that includes a routerboard with a radio/antenna.  BUT, the 
truth of the matter is that the FCC does not go after people who are 
not operating outside the legal EIRP limits.  I am not going to 
argue the legality of using MT (or starOS) vs other certified 
systems.  I am merely pointing out that Patrick's point regarding 
certified systems is valid.



What works with the Tranzeo CPQ clients?


Many things work with this product, including Mikrotik and 
StarOS.


Specifically? What do you use? or what do you see your clients 
using? What works? Before I go and spend my money on a product, any 
product, I ask around to see what works and what does not.


I am no longer an ISP.  When I was, I used Mikrotik as an AP 
(several deployed), but I never used Tranzeo.  I have several 
customers (some on this list) that use Mikrotik APs with Tranzeo 
CPE.  I'd expect that you may hear from some of them in this thread 
as well.  Either way, Mikrotik as an AP is a stable platform that 
offers a variety of options well beyond most of the competition, 
and it does work with Tranzeo products.


--
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
573-276-2879
http://www.butchevans.com/
Mikrotik Certified Consultant
(http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html)
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RE: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...

2006-12-28 Thread Patrick Leary
Lonnie,

Not sure why you are fired up. Your product is software that gets loaded
into hardware so I'm not talking about you. I'm talking about illegal
hardware and what is untrue about what I said about illegal hardware
suppliers?

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lonnie Nunweiler
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 10:02 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...

Patrick,

This is simply the LOWEST blow I have EVER seen you throw.  You have
always been an Evangelist and I have seen you come and go from several
lists, while me and my people have survived legal blind sides and we
have outlived several LARGER companies.

Yep, pretty low.  Plus it did not answer the question.  I feel I
cannot jump in since I am too close to the product and thus might be
seen as self serving.  What is your excuse?


Lonnie


On 12/28/06, Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  I mean, besides simply being illegal, such a vendor has
 no quality controls, they can also just up and walk away from you and
 quit anytime, they have no accountability, and it throws away your
 investment from an equity standpoint.


 Patrick Leary
 AVP WISP Markets
 Alvarion, Inc.
 o: 650.314.2628
 c: 760.580.0080
 Vonage: 650.641.1243
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On
 Behalf Of Butch Evans
 Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 9:00 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: RE: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...

 On Thu, 28 Dec 2006, Patrick Leary wrote:

 Why not stick with Tranzeo or one of the other legal
 (FCC-certified) brands?

 Good idea, Patrick, but it doesn't answer the question that was
 asked.

 --
 Butch Evans
 Network Engineering and Security Consulting
 573-276-2879
 http://www.butchevans.com/
 Mikrotik Certified Consultant
 (http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html)
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Valemount Networks Corporation
http://www.star-os.com/
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Re: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...

2006-12-28 Thread Lonnie Nunweiler

Ryan,

I have no personal experience with the Tranzeo line so I cannot answer
directly.  Through helping people on our Support Forums I know some
people have nothing but trouble while others have a really good
experience with the CPQ series on our Access Points.  I think it all
depends on the firmware and hardware version.

Sorry to not be able to be more positive for you.

Lonnie



On 12/28/06, D. Ryan Spott [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Can anyone just answer the questions I had without fighting amongst
yourselves? (I thought Xmas with the inlaws was bad!)

Lonnie... If I were to buy a StarOS type product, would it be
compatable with the CPQ series radios from Tranzeo?

What sort of client load should I be able to support on a Star-OS
based AP?



ryan


On Dec 28, 2006, at 10:01 PM, Lonnie Nunweiler wrote:

 Patrick,

 This is simply the LOWEST blow I have EVER seen you throw.  You have
 always been an Evangelist and I have seen you come and go from several
 lists, while me and my people have survived legal blind sides and we
 have outlived several LARGER companies.

 Yep, pretty low.  Plus it did not answer the question.  I feel I
 cannot jump in since I am too close to the product and thus might be
 seen as self serving.  What is your excuse?


 Lonnie


 On 12/28/06, Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  I mean, besides simply being illegal, such a vendor has
 no quality controls, they can also just up and walk away from you and
 quit anytime, they have no accountability, and it throws away your
 investment from an equity standpoint.


 Patrick Leary
 AVP WISP Markets
 Alvarion, Inc.
 o: 650.314.2628
 c: 760.580.0080
 Vonage: 650.641.1243
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:wireless-
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Butch Evans
 Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 9:00 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: RE: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...

 On Thu, 28 Dec 2006, Patrick Leary wrote:

 Why not stick with Tranzeo or one of the other legal
 (FCC-certified) brands?

 Good idea, Patrick, but it doesn't answer the question that was
 asked.

 --
 Butch Evans
 Network Engineering and Security Consulting
 573-276-2879
 http://www.butchevans.com/
 Mikrotik Certified Consultant
 (http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html)
 --
 WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

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Re: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...

2006-12-28 Thread Mark Koskenmaki
I happen to use his software, and assemble hardware from various vendors,
including him.

I am scrupulously careful to be within the 2.4 and 5.8 eirp rules ( well
under all limits) and don't deploy wild and crazy configs.   I suppose I am
illegal, but then recently I visited a consultant who had a cisco AP and
1 watt amp and 12 db omni on his roof.   That was to overcome the WISP's
linksys (I think) router and 1 watt amp and 15 db omni a couple blocks over
on their roof...To be lumped into that kind of wild and idiotic (and
very illegal) bunch is rather insulting, Patrick...

IF someone built a product that would perform anywhere near as well and had
anywhere NEAR the features, I might consider buying it.As much as I am
intrigued by your VL product, every time I look at it, I remind myself that
in order to be even workable,  I have to buy and configure a router at the
customer's end, because as best I can tell,  the CPE is just a bridge as is
the AP, which makes a REAL headache at the remote sites where space and
power at an extreme premium and are powered by solar or wind or a
combination.Another box that has to be maintained, another point of
failure, yet another box to configure and install at the customer's end.
And then there has to be a router at the AP end, complete with DHCP server,
or we do like others, and start screwing around with vlans, etc, in order to
overcome the essential features deficit built into things like VL and
Trango.

When you offer that $230 - $280 client that is certified and has at minimum
the following features:

Full routing.  (both client and AP)
Bandwidth control.
QOS.
Firewalling.
DNS server for client's use.
DHCP server (both client and AP)
Multiple network interfaces (just plug in the rf module for 1 to 4 radios
and already contains 1- 4 ethernet ports)
bandwidth or data transfer tracking
ping and other utilities
bandwidth testing from any point to any other point on the network
RIP, OSPF, OLSR, BGP capabilities

Then you may make things like Mikrotik or Star-OS obsolete.. Until then,
you're peddling a half solution to WISP's - or that's how it feels to
those of us who have built our networks on them.

BTW, you never did answer my questions about how all the neat RF features of
VL overcome, help, or prevent various issues.

You mentioned a lot of adjustments, but did not explain what the effect of
these things are on the things we see that affect our similar networks - if
you can muck with them, but they don't do what we think we need, or if we
don't understand what they can accomplish... then reciting the list amounts
to ball joints as an advanced feature of a Ferarri...



+++
neofast.net - fast internet for North East Oregon and South East Washington
email me at mark at neofast dot net
541-969-8200
Direct commercial inquiries to purchasing at neofast dot net

- Original Message - 
From: Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 10:18 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...


 Lonnie,

 Not sure why you are fired up. Your product is software that gets loaded
 into hardware so I'm not talking about you. I'm talking about illegal
 hardware and what is untrue about what I said about illegal hardware
 suppliers?

 Patrick Leary
 AVP WISP Markets
 Alvarion, Inc.
 o: 650.314.2628
 c: 760.580.0080
 Vonage: 650.641.1243
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Lonnie Nunweiler
 Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 10:02 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...

 Patrick,

 This is simply the LOWEST blow I have EVER seen you throw.  You have
 always been an Evangelist and I have seen you come and go from several
 lists, while me and my people have survived legal blind sides and we
 have outlived several LARGER companies.

 Yep, pretty low.  Plus it did not answer the question.  I feel I
 cannot jump in since I am too close to the product and thus might be
 seen as self serving.  What is your excuse?


 Lonnie


 On 12/28/06, Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   I mean, besides simply being illegal, such a vendor has
  no quality controls, they can also just up and walk away from you and
  quit anytime, they have no accountability, and it throws away your
  investment from an equity standpoint.
 
 
  Patrick Leary
  AVP WISP Markets
  Alvarion, Inc.
  o: 650.314.2628
  c: 760.580.0080
  Vonage: 650.641.1243
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
  -Original Message-
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 On
  Behalf Of Butch Evans
  Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 9:00 PM
  To: WISPA General List
  Subject: RE: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...
 
  On Thu, 28 Dec 2006, Patrick Leary wrote:
 
  Why not stick with Tranzeo or one of the other legal
  (FCC-certified) brands?
 
  Good idea, Patrick

Re: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...

2006-12-28 Thread Butch Evans

On Thu, 28 Dec 2006, Mark Koskenmaki wrote:

IF someone built a product that would perform anywhere near as well 
and had anywhere NEAR the features, I might consider buying it. 
As much as I am intrigued by your VL product, every time I look at 
it, I remind myself that in order to be even workable, I have to 
buy and configure a router at the customer's end, because as best I 
can tell, the CPE is just a bridge as is


Mark,
You and I have been at odds on several topics, but this is, in my 
opinion, one of the most overlooked requirements of a good CPE 
installation.  It is my contention (and yours, it seems) that a 
router at the CPE is necessary.  I only wanted to say that, because 
I so rarely have a chance to agree with you.  ;-)


--
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
573-276-2879
http://www.butchevans.com/
Mikrotik Certified Consultant
(http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html)
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Re: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...

2006-12-28 Thread N White
We never used the TRCPQ, but we do have several hundred TRCPEs and 
TRCPE200s. We have 3 Access points with ~50 clients each- a combination 
of TRCPE, CPE200, and DemarcTech units. This handles well. If I remember 
correctly, the TRCPE is Atheros based(?) and I would think that it 
should work ever better than the TRCPE200 (Prism-based; which have 
sometimes been troublesome when one gets flaky) in combination with an 
Atheros based StarOS AP. All of our StarOS APs are Atheros based - 
either CM9, SR2, or WLM54G. Really no problems, and any that we've had 
we have overcome by tracking down some bad CPEs. We have a total of 
about 300 2.4Ghz clients, and about a dozen 5.8 clients.


-Nick


D. Ryan Spott wrote:
Can anyone just answer the questions I had without fighting amongst 
yourselves? (I thought Xmas with the inlaws was bad!)


Lonnie... If I were to buy a StarOS type product, would it be 
compatable with the CPQ series radios from Tranzeo?


What sort of client load should I be able to support on a Star-OS 
based AP?




ryan


On Dec 28, 2006, at 10:01 PM, Lonnie Nunweiler wrote:


Patrick,

This is simply the LOWEST blow I have EVER seen you throw.  You have
always been an Evangelist and I have seen you come and go from several
lists, while me and my people have survived legal blind sides and we
have outlived several LARGER companies.

Yep, pretty low.  Plus it did not answer the question.  I feel I
cannot jump in since I am too close to the product and thus might be
seen as self serving.  What is your excuse?


Lonnie


On 12/28/06, Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I mean, besides simply being illegal, such a vendor has
no quality controls, they can also just up and walk away from you and
quit anytime, they have no accountability, and it throws away your
investment from an equity standpoint.


Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Butch Evans
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 9:00 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...

On Thu, 28 Dec 2006, Patrick Leary wrote:

Why not stick with Tranzeo or one of the other legal
(FCC-certified) brands?

Good idea, Patrick, but it doesn't answer the question that was
asked.

--
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
573-276-2879
http://www.butchevans.com/
Mikrotik Certified Consultant
(http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html)
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Valemount Networks Corporation
http://www.star-os.com/
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| http://www.tele-net.net |
| [EMAIL PROTECTED] |
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RE: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...

2006-12-28 Thread Patrick Leary
Lonnie, you are just doing what I wish I were smart enough to do --
write code people are willing to pay for. Software is always better than
hardware: you avoid FCC hassles, you have no hard shipping or packaging
costs, you need no production facilities, you don't have to negotiate
purchase of and stock components, you can live anywhere, it can be
instantly deployed, etc., etc.

I've nothing but respect for what you've done. 

For all the same reasons, I'd think you were insane if you went into
hardware in this business.

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lonnie Nunweiler
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 10:32 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...

Seemed kind close to my home is all.

All the Best in 2007.

Lonnie






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Re: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...

2006-12-28 Thread George Rogato



Butch Evans wrote:
 It is my contention (and yours, it seems) that a router
at the CPE is necessary. 



BINGO.

Qwest DSL has a router at every customer. Ever taken a look at what 
those Actiontec wireless dsl routers do...


As we stated in an earlier thread, those pesky routers matter more than 
our cpes, to the customer.



--
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Re: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...

2006-12-28 Thread N White
Correction. It's late, I'm tired, and have had too much wine. I meant 
that the TRCPQ is Atheros based, not TRCPE. This is from a Tranzeo list:



The CPE90 is Marvell.
The 900, the CPQ, the 6000, the 49, and the 5a are all Atheros based.
The CPE200, the 1000, 2000, 3000 and 4000 were Prism based.
The CPE80 was Atmel.
-Damian Wallace


Also, if you decide to go the StarOS/Mikrotik way, make sure you upgrade 
all of your Tranzeo gear to the latest firmwares.


-Nick


N White wrote:

We never used the TRCPQ, but we do have several hundred TRCPEs and 
TRCPE200s. We have 3 Access points with ~50 clients each- a 
combination of TRCPE, CPE200, and DemarcTech units. This handles well. 
If I remember correctly, the TRCPE is Atheros based(?) and I would 
think that it should work ever better than the TRCPE200 (Prism-based; 
which have sometimes been troublesome when one gets flaky) in 
combination with an Atheros based StarOS AP. All of our StarOS APs are 
Atheros based - either CM9, SR2, or WLM54G. Really no problems, and 
any that we've had we have overcome by tracking down some bad CPEs. We 
have a total of about 300 2.4Ghz clients, and about a dozen 5.8 clients.


-Nick


D. Ryan Spott wrote:
Can anyone just answer the questions I had without fighting amongst 
yourselves? (I thought Xmas with the inlaws was bad!)


Lonnie... If I were to buy a StarOS type product, would it be 
compatable with the CPQ series radios from Tranzeo?


What sort of client load should I be able to support on a Star-OS 
based AP?




ryan


On Dec 28, 2006, at 10:01 PM, Lonnie Nunweiler wrote:


Patrick,

This is simply the LOWEST blow I have EVER seen you throw.  You have
always been an Evangelist and I have seen you come and go from several
lists, while me and my people have survived legal blind sides and we
have outlived several LARGER companies.

Yep, pretty low.  Plus it did not answer the question.  I feel I
cannot jump in since I am too close to the product and thus might be
seen as self serving.  What is your excuse?


Lonnie


On 12/28/06, Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I mean, besides simply being illegal, such a vendor has
no quality controls, they can also just up and walk away from you and
quit anytime, they have no accountability, and it throws away your
investment from an equity standpoint.


Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On

Behalf Of Butch Evans
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 9:00 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...

On Thu, 28 Dec 2006, Patrick Leary wrote:

Why not stick with Tranzeo or one of the other legal
(FCC-certified) brands?

Good idea, Patrick, but it doesn't answer the question that was
asked.

--
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
573-276-2879
http://www.butchevans.com/
Mikrotik Certified Consultant
(http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html)
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http://www.star-os.com/
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| Tele-NET Internet

Re: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...

2006-12-28 Thread George Rogato
Then you must not be aware that Lonnie is now also selling the complete 
package.
The newest product is Star V3, Atheros cm9 and a gateworks customized 
board to Lonnies specs.


It's called the WAR board, or Wireless Advanced Router. They come in 2 
flavors, a 4 port 533MHz proc or a 2 port 266MHz proc, both with 2 
ethernets. Can do 5, 10, 20,,40MHz channel widths.


I have  better than 200 maybe 250 by now WAR boards in place with Pac 
Wireless Rootennas both 5 gig and 2 gig.


Recently I built a new pop using a water tank. My transfer rate from the 
tank to my house gave me just under 30megs ftp across that link using a 
pair of 266's.


Most of the links I put in are 5 gig and I use the 2nd port for a 2 gig 
wifi ap for the immediate area.


I can honestly say that I can not remember having to reboot any of my 
war boards and 20 megs is not uncommon across my wireless man.





George

Patrick Leary wrote:

Lonnie, you are just doing what I wish I were smart enough to do --
write code people are willing to pay for. Software is always better than
hardware: you avoid FCC hassles, you have no hard shipping or packaging
costs, you need no production facilities, you don't have to negotiate
purchase of and stock components, you can live anywhere, it can be
instantly deployed, etc., etc.

I've nothing but respect for what you've done. 


For all the same reasons, I'd think you were insane if you went into
hardware in this business.

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lonnie Nunweiler
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 10:32 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...

Seemed kind close to my home is all.

All the Best in 2007.

Lonnie



 
 


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RE: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...

2006-12-28 Thread Patrick Leary
Right guys, I accept all that may be true but even in the DSL world,
customers provide their own routers and that is certainly true of
commercial customers.

In any event, VL does many of things for which you think make a router
so critical. Even better, it does a lot of them at the RF level which
makes the link and total network more efficient. Frankly though, I need
one of my engineers in this type conversation; I'm just not technically
competent enough on the networking side (and barely so in the nitty
gritty of the RF side). 

At the same token, many here that are truly skilled remain under exposed
on the RF side since most have not used truly sophisticated gear that
allows for depths of tweaking beyond that which you have experienced. I
have never encountered an old hand who, once thoroughly exposed to our
firmware in a scaled system, did not say something along the lines of,
Wow, I did not know that sort of thing could be even be done! or You
mean that's all we have to do to do that? That always took me hours
before! Basically, I think many of you have trained and become good
street racers, but you've not yet become real race car drivers because
you are still driving souped up street cars not realizing a real race
car actually IS different.

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of George Rogato
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 11:25 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...



Butch Evans wrote:
  It is my contention (and yours, it seems) that a router
 at the CPE is necessary. 
 

BINGO.

Qwest DSL has a router at every customer. Ever taken a look at what 
those Actiontec wireless dsl routers do...

As we stated in an earlier thread, those pesky routers matter more than 
our cpes, to the customer.


-- 
George Rogato

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Re: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...

2006-12-28 Thread George Rogato



Patrick Leary wrote:

Right guys, I accept all that may be true but even in the DSL world,
customers provide their own routers and that is certainly true of
commercial customers.


Not in the Qwest DSL world. at least the resi stuff they sell.
Comes with an actiontec or 2wire wireless router with 4 ports and a 
built in dsl modem. Complete deal the Qwest technician can log into if 
they need to. All the customer has to do is plug in or wireless connect.


Understood that commercial connections wouldn't want that type of a router.

Point is, the trend is and rightly so, to get as close to the customer 
as possible to idiot proof their connectivity. Thus, the quality router.


I bet even wisps who use your gear for resi have had issues and lost 
customers because of the confusion of where responsibility lies 
concerning the router.







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