Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml

2008-03-31 Thread Jixor - Stephen I
I strongly recommend you disable this feature of windows on any systems you set up for the less computer literate because I can tell you form experience with novice users that its a very bad feature. David Dorward wrote: On 28 Mar 2008, at 05:48, Jixor - Stephen I wrote: Yes but you choose

Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of x html

2008-03-30 Thread Kane Tapping
Management Services Griffith University. 4111. Australia. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Phone: +61 (0)7 3735 7630 Andrew Maben [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 29/03/2008 12:58 AM Please respond to wsg@webstandardsgroup.org To wsg@webstandardsgroup.org cc Subject Re: [WSG] a target=” blank

Re: [WSG] a target= ” blank” not part of xhtml

2008-03-28 Thread Kane Tapping
by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 28/03/2008 02:00 AM Please respond to wsg@webstandardsgroup.org To wsg@webstandardsgroup.org cc Subject Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml On Mar 27, 2008, at 11:44 AM, Michael Horowitz wrote: I can't imagine its better practice to replace it with javascript

Re: [WSG] a target= blank not part of xhtml

2008-03-28 Thread Diego La Monica
Another solution is http://wili.diegolamonica.info that allow you to open discretional popup windows. That page is in Italian only but in few days it will be translated in more other languages. It doesn't require that you are skilled in javascript, but requires to follow only the instruction that

Re: [WSG] a target= ” blank” not part of xhtml

2008-03-28 Thread Patrick H. Lauke
Nancy Gill wrote: Actually, this link from the W3C suggests the use of both target and title .. target to open the window and title to tell the user that a new window will open. Example 2: A link that opens in a new window In HTML 4.01 the |target=_blank| attribute can be used on an

Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml

2008-03-28 Thread David Dorward
On 28 Mar 2008, at 05:48, Jixor - Stephen I wrote: Yes but you choose to do so rather than being forced to do so. Usability tests still show that opening a new window confuses people. They can't work out whey they can't go back and don't seem to be aware of the task bar. I'm not sure how

Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml

2008-03-28 Thread Hassan Schroeder
Joe Ortenzi wrote: ... The help application opens a new window because it is designed to help you interact with the application you requested help with. It would be pretty dumb to delete the thing that you requested help with to be replaced with the help modal.!! Exactly my point. And

Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml

2008-03-28 Thread Andrew Maben
On Mar 28, 2008, at 10:09 AM, Hassan Schroeder wrote: Perhaps if you've never seen or used one, it's hard to conceptualize, but they exist. Ouch... However if the subject is still opening new windows vis a vis the target attribute, it seems to me hard to conceptualize a web app that

Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml

2008-03-27 Thread Andrew Maben
On Mar 27, 2008, at 11:44 AM, Michael Horowitz wrote: I can't imagine its better practice to replace it with javascript. No, better practice is to avoid foisting new windows on users altogether. (IMHO - but I don't think I'm alone...) Andrew

Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml

2008-03-27 Thread Diego La Monica
Because it's against accessibility of a webpage. On 27/03/2008, Michael Horowitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I just read how a target=_blank is not part of xhtml Why not. I can't imagine its better practice to replace it with javascript.

Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml

2008-03-27 Thread Nancy Gill
I totally agree .. in fact just having this conversation elsewhere. How can javascript be more accessible when those most concerned with accessibility will probably turn it off anyway? Makes no sense to have this removed .. I open new windows all the time .. for PDFs .. for links that go

Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of x html

2008-03-27 Thread Rob Kirton
Michael I would recommend that you use target=_new and then use XHTML transitional DTD -- Regards - Rob Raising web standards : http://ele.vation.co.uk Linking in with others: http://linkedin.com/in/robkirton On 27/03/2008, Michael Horowitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I just read how a

Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml

2008-03-27 Thread Rochester oliveira
For acessibility and usabilitty issues i think we shouldn't use this. http://diveintoaccessibility.org/day_16_not_opening_new_windows.html http://www.useit.com/alertbox/990530.html http://www.w3.org/WAI/wcag-curric/sam77-0.htm http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-validator/2002Apr/0100.html

Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of x html

2008-03-27 Thread Rob Kirton
Andrew of course you are right there, however if the brief says so -- Regards - Rob Raising web standards : http://ele.vation.co.uk Linking in with others: http://linkedin.com/in/robkirton On 27/03/2008, Andrew Maben [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mar 27, 2008, at 11:44 AM, Michael

Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of x html

2008-03-27 Thread Michael Horowitz
Has the same problem. Target is not xhtml. Are people arguing web standards prohibit opening a new page in a new browser or tab? Michael Horowitz Your Computer Consultant http://yourcomputerconsultant.com 561-394-9079 Rob Kirton wrote: Michael I would recommend that you use target=_new

Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml

2008-03-27 Thread Hassan Schroeder
Michael Horowitz wrote: I just read how a target=”_blank” is not part of xhtml It's not part of XHTML 1.0 Strict or Transitional -- it's part of XHTML 1.0 Frameset. Choose the doctype you want to validate to. Or use the JavaScript approach. Ya pays yer money and ya makes yer choices :-)

Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml

2008-03-27 Thread Thomas Thomassen
@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 5:03 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml I totally agree .. in fact just having this conversation elsewhere. How can javascript be more accessible when those most concerned with accessibility will probably turn it off

RE: [WSG] a target= blank not part of xhtml

2008-03-27 Thread Ant Tears
2008 16:36 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] a target= blank not part of xhtml Has the same problem. Target is not xhtml. Are people arguing web standards prohibit opening a new page in a new browser or tab? Michael Horowitz Your Computer Consultant http://yourcomputerconsultant.com

Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml

2008-03-27 Thread Nancy Gill
that. Not everyone who uses the internet is all that websavvy. Nancy - Original Message - From: Thomas Thomassen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 10:01 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml Poping up windows makes assumtion

Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml

2008-03-27 Thread Hassan Schroeder
Thomas Thomassen wrote: Poping up windows makes assumtion of the user's behaviour. Making assumptions about users' needs and behavior is your job as a designer/developer. Which is not to say everyone makes the best possible decisions. :-) Not everything built with (X)HTML is a brochureware

Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml

2008-03-27 Thread David Dorward
On 27 Mar 2008, at 15:44, Michael Horowitz wrote: I just read how a target=”_blank” is not part of xhtml You read wrong. It is not part of Strict (HTML or XHTML), it is part of Transitional. Why not. Opening new windows is behaviour and thus out of scope for a markup language that

Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml

2008-03-27 Thread David Dorward
On 27 Mar 2008, at 16:31, Hassan Schroeder wrote: Michael Horowitz wrote: I just read how a target=”_blank” is not part of xhtml It's not part of XHTML 1.0 Strict or Transitional It is part of Transitional. -- it's part of XHTML 1.0 Frameset. Frameset is for frameSET documents, i.e.

Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml

2008-03-27 Thread David Dorward
On 27 Mar 2008, at 16:09, Rob Kirton wrote: I would recommend that you use target=_new and then use XHTML transitional DTD Don't do that. _new is not (X)HTML. http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/types.html#h-6.16 Paraphrasing: Except for the reserved names (_blank, _self, _parent, _top), frame

Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml

2008-03-27 Thread Thomas Thomassen
myself. But as I said, it's a different fish from websites. -Thom - Original Message - From: Hassan Schroeder [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 6:59 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml Thomas Thomassen wrote: Poping up

Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml

2008-03-27 Thread Hassan Schroeder
Thomas Thomassen wrote: Frames and popup windows is fine features to use in web based applications. I'll agree to that. Which is exactly my point -- why remove (or even deprecate) a useful capability because it's been abused by some? -- Hassan Schroeder - [EMAIL

Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml

2008-03-27 Thread Andrew Maben
On Mar 27, 2008, at 12:11 PM, Rob Kirton wrote: of course you are right there, however if the brief says so I know, I know... sigh / I'm in the middle of half a dozen conversations in which which I'm being commanded to make hideous assaults on usability - but I do feel duty-bound in

Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml

2008-03-27 Thread Thomas Thomassen
:32 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml I see your point, Thom. The exception, IMO, is when you link to a PDF .. the Acrobat Reader takes over the window and the only way to go back in the same window is to use the back button in the browser .. not very good practice, IMO

Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml

2008-03-27 Thread Nancy Gill
Thomassen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 11:08 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml As for PDFs I find it ok that they open in a new window. As a personal preferance. But for regular links I feel that it's best leaving them alone

RE: [WSG] a target= blank not part of xhtml

2008-03-27 Thread Darren Lovelock
PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andrew Maben Sent: 27 March 2008 16:01 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] a target= blank not part of xhtml On Mar 27, 2008, at 11:44 AM, Michael Horowitz wrote: I can't imagine its better practice to replace it with javascript

RE: [WSG] a target= blank not part of xhtml

2008-03-27 Thread Thierry Koblentz
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael Horowitz Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 8:45 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] a target= blank not part of xhtml I just read how a target=_blank is not part of xhtml Why not.

RE: [WSG] a target= blank not part of xhtml

2008-03-27 Thread Jens-Uwe Korff
Poping up windows makes assumtion of the user's behaviour. I second that. Originally I had the target solution, then (to make it XHTML-compliant) an inline JS solution. With the next redesign I will throw it out altogether and just indicate external links through CSS, but leave it to the user to

Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml

2008-03-27 Thread Jixor - Stephen I
Yes but you choose to do so rather than being forced to do so. Usability tests still show that opening a new window confuses people. They can't work out whey they can't go back and don't seem to be aware of the task bar. I'm not sure how users react to tabbed browsers but in my own limited

RE: please avoid forcing people to open pdf in browser! was Re: [WSG] To target or not

2007-07-31 Thread Christina Porter
: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael MD Sent: Friday, 20 July 2007 12:58 p.m. To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: please avoid forcing people to open pdf in browser! was Re: [WSG] To target or not I'm all about web conventions. I didn't realize having a blank

Re: [WSG] Using target=_blank

2007-07-25 Thread Steve Olive
On Tuesday 24 July 2007 23:49, Ryan Lin wrote: Hi all, With the XHTML Strict DTD, forcing a new window to open for a link via target=_blank is not a valid semantic method anymore. I myself believe that whether to open in a new or current window should be user decision, not wed

Re: [WSG] Using target=_blank

2007-07-25 Thread Ryan Lin
Steve, The other aspect of XHTML Strict DTD, the client won't even know unless I take my time to explain everything but this target stuff is something they will notice if they ask me to open certain links in new window. That's why I need arguments against this. :) XHTML Strict and 1.1 has

RE: [WSG] Using target=_blank

2007-07-25 Thread michael.brockington
, 2007 10:45 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Using target=_blank From: David Hucklesby [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hmm. What's easy to use when you wind up with a bunch of spawned windows that must be closed one by one? I'm not advocating popup windows, but with a simple script is very

Re: [WSG] Using target=_blank

2007-07-25 Thread Designer
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That has to be just about the nastiest version of all - I click a link and get a new window. Fine, not what I wanted, but there was that other link that looked interesting, I'll just go back to the first window and open a few more links before I read that page. Hey!

Re: [WSG] Using target=_blank

2007-07-25 Thread Gaspar
frames for simplicity, ease of navigation ?! for u i think!! u cant just think that's right just because u do it's easy for u... On 25/07/07, Designer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That has to be just about the nastiest version of all - I click a link and get a new

RE: [Spam] Re: [WSG] Using target=_blank

2007-07-25 Thread Christie Mason
I'm not sure who wrote the below, but I'm hoping it was a sarcastic comment and not someone's real impression of real users. I've never met a user who even liked frames, and that includes me. Also, perhaps I missed a thread, but I've wondering if the increasing use of tabs has overcome any new

Re: [WSG] Using target=_blank

2007-07-25 Thread ron zisman
hey steve, without going into pros and cons on the target attribute, roger johansson has an interesting article on the subject with a javascript solution the degrades to opening in the same window if java is turned off or pop ups blocked. some clients want what they want and won't be

Re: [WSG] Using target=_blank

2007-07-24 Thread Tim Offenstein
So what argument should I give to my clients not to use target=_blank ? If I say that won't validate your page, they won't care. So any non-technical argument that I can give to them? Ryan The best non-technical argument I can think of is that this approach breaks the back button. Jakob

Re: [WSG] Using target=_blank

2007-07-24 Thread Hassan Schroeder
Ryan Lin wrote: With the XHTML Strict DTD, forcing a new window to open for a link via target=_blank is not a valid semantic method anymore. I myself believe that whether to open in a new or current window should be user decision, not wed designer/developer. Why? If you have logical

Re: [WSG] Using target=_blank

2007-07-24 Thread Ryan Lin
Well, I am just gathering more argument points so that the clients have nothing to say but to agree and accept the concept. :) Hassan Schroeder wrote: Ryan Lin wrote: With the XHTML Strict DTD, forcing a new window to open for a link via target=_blank is not a valid semantic method

Re: [WSG] Using target=_blank

2007-07-24 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com
of. Or to provide some preference control widget. My two cents. Cheers. Mike Cherim - Original Message - From: Ryan Lin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 11:21 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Using target=_blank Well, I am just gathering more argument points so

RE: [WSG] Using target=_blank

2007-07-24 Thread michael.brockington
Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ryan Lin Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 4:21 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Using target=_blank Well, I am just gathering more argument points so that the clients have nothing to say but to agree

Re: [WSG] Using target=_blank

2007-07-24 Thread insure
Personally I prefer links to open in the same Window. But that's me. And I don't want to force my preference on anyone. That's why it's nicer to leave it to the user to decide. The only way to let users decide is to open links in the same window by default and teach said users a function of

Re: [WSG] Using target=_blank

2007-07-24 Thread Brian Cummiskey
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry but I don't agree...to a point. As a web designer and user myself, I prefer opening another window IF it is to a different website that I am referring them to. That way the customer doesn't go wondering thru the other website and forget to come back to mine.

RE: [WSG] Using target=_blank

2007-07-24 Thread Joyce Evans
I agree with you completely, but we are definitely in the minority here. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 12:19 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Using target=_blank

Re: [WSG] Using target=_blank

2007-07-24 Thread Chris Price
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I prefer opening another window IF it is to a different website that I am referring them to. That way the customer doesn't go wondering thru the other website and forget to come back to mine. Mine will always be open in the background to remind them (kind of like I'm

Re: [WSG] Using target=_blank

2007-07-24 Thread Andrew Maben
On Jul 24, 2007, at 1:19 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That way the customer doesn't go wondering thru the other website and forget to come back to mine. If you go to the mall, would you be happier if every store you entered assigned a staff member to accompany you so you don't forget to

Re: [WSG] Using target=_blank

2007-07-24 Thread David Hucklesby
On Tue, 24 Jul 2007 13:19:21 -0400 (EDT), [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Personally I prefer links to open in the same Window. But that's me. And I don't want to force my preference on anyone. That's why it's nicer to leave it to the user to decide. The only way to let users decide is to open

Re: [WSG] Using target=_blank

2007-07-24 Thread insure
That way the customer doesn't go wondering thru the other website and forget to come back to mine. Further, it's a misunderstanding of the dynamics of the relationship to speak of users visiting your site. On the contrary, the user is extending an invitation to your site to visit HER browser, on

Re: [WSG] Using target=_blank

2007-07-24 Thread Andrew Freedman
Firstly I have no argument for you to give your customer. Having a new window is not like having windows pop up automatically. If there is a requirement for the content to be displayed in a new window then why use a different doc type for that one page? Now when I mention requirement' I

RE: [WSG] Using target=_blank

2007-07-24 Thread Joyce Evans
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Cc: Andrew Maben Subject: Re: [WSG] Using target=_blank On Jul 24, 2007, at 1:19 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That way the customer doesn't go wondering thru the other website and forget to come back to mine. If you go to the mall, would you be happier if every

Re: [WSG] Using target=_blank

2007-07-24 Thread Nick Fitzsimons
On Tue, July 24, 2007 6:19 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry but I don't agree...to a point. As a web designer and user myself, I prefer opening another window IF it is to a different website that I am referring them to. That way the customer doesn't go wondering thru the other website and

Re: [WSG] Using target=_blank

2007-07-24 Thread Rimantas Liubertas
I used to work for a web development company who designed a website for a large homebuilder. At the bottom of the home page, we had a link to our website, i.e. Site designed by ourCompany. We did not use target=_blank. When our homebuilder customer clicked on our link and found themselves in

Re: [WSG] Using target=_blank

2007-07-24 Thread Dave Lane
Wow, that's very well said, especially your clarification of the relationship dynamics between the website and the visitor. Thanks, Dave Andrew Maben wrote: If you go to the mall, would you be happier if every store you entered assigned a staff member to accompany you so you don't forget to

Re: [WSG] Using target=_blank

2007-07-24 Thread Al Sparber
From: David Hucklesby [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hmm. What's easy to use when you wind up with a bunch of spawned windows that must be closed one by one? I'm not advocating popup windows, but with a simple script is very easy to open popup windows while reusing the same window. That is, maximum number

Re: [WSG] Using target=_blank

2007-07-24 Thread Jermayn Parker
Unless im mistaken the original question was asking about some ideas to sell strict DTD to the client (which means no target=blank code) and not whether users/ designers prefer to have windows open in seperate windows. That discussion was last week, so discuss in that. about the original

Re: [WSG] Using target=_blank

2007-07-24 Thread Lachlan Hunt
Ryan Lin wrote: With the XHTML Strict DTD, forcing a new window to open for a link via target=_blank is not a valid semantic method anymore. I myself believe that whether to open in a new or current window should be user decision, not wed designer/developer. If I am using Strict DTD, the only

Re: please avoid forcing people to open pdf in browser! was Re: [WSG] To target or not

2007-07-21 Thread Alastair Campbell
On Fri, Jul 20, 2007 at 11:23:44AM +1000, Webb, KerryA wrote: If that's an efficient and effective way to publish a document, let them do it - providing the PDF is properly marked up. Is there an organisation that systematically produces well marked up accessible PDFs? I train people in how

Re: [WSG] To target or not

2007-07-20 Thread Designer
Can we just step back a moment, and consider what we are doing. As I write this reply, I am typing the content of this mail IN A NEW WINDOW. When I send the mail, the window disappears and I'm left with a large window, with folders in a FRAME down the left. As I read the new mails, I move

Re: [WSG] To target or not

2007-07-20 Thread Steve Olive
On Friday 20 July 2007 07:44, Dave Lane wrote: If I click on a link on their site I expect it to open in my current window - if it insists on opening a new window, it pisses me off, because that's not how I work. I see that approach as indicating a designer still in a very IE5.5-6 mindset:

RE: [WSG] To target or not

2007-07-20 Thread michael.brockington
If your banking site relies on a new window for its security, then it is time to get a new bank! In this day and age when every major browser has tabbed browsing, there is little that is more infuriating than have a new browser window spawned for no reason - worst of all is when I 'middle-click'

Re: [WSG] To target or not

2007-07-20 Thread Felix Miata
On 2007/07/20 20:14 (GMT+1000) Steve Olive apparently typed: There are valid cases for opening content from the same site in a new window. The most obvious is when logging into secure sections of web sites, like online banking. By forcing a new window that then generates the secure session

RE: [WSG] To target or not

2007-07-20 Thread Philip Kiff
Designer wrote: Can we just step back a moment, and consider what we are doing. As I write this reply, I am typing the content of this mail IN A NEW WINDOW.[] Do those who proclaim annoyance at having 'new windows forced on them' apply the same thinking to mail, Dreamweaver (and all the

Re: [WSG] To target or not

2007-07-19 Thread Gaspar
But all this examples doesnt still force the users to open a new window!?! So i not use target=blank, it's the somethink, or i have turn off javascript to be forced to open in a new Window!? I many times think in this, and think in a way of using a class= or rel= to a , this activate a

Re: [WSG] To target or not

2007-07-19 Thread Diego La Monica
Hi, Gaspar: But all this examples doesnt still force the users to open a new window!?! Not all, WindowedLinks doesn't force user, but let the user to choose by a common function on the page. So i not use target=blank, it's the somethink, or i have turn off javascript to be forced to open

RE: [WSG] To target or not

2007-07-19 Thread Joyce Evans
I always thought it was a good idea to open links to other websites in a separate window, so you don't lose the visitor. If the visitor clicks on a link on your website and it does not open into a separate window, the visitor may stay in the other website for awhile, going to, say, 20 different

Re: [WSG] To target or not

2007-07-19 Thread Diego La Monica
Hi Joyce Evans: I always thought it was a good idea to open links to other websites in a separate window, so you don't lose the visitor. If the visitor clicks on a link on your website and it does not open into a separate window, the visitor may stay in the other website for awhile, going to,

Re: [WSG] To target or not

2007-07-19 Thread Dave Lane
My suggestion is simple: let it be the content and presentation that keeps people on your site, not gimmickry. Most smart web surfers use Firefox or Opera or a lesser browser that is nonetheless tabbed. If I want to stay on a page, I open links from that page in new background tabs while I

Re: [WSG] To target or not

2007-07-19 Thread paul tutty
I think adding a css class that displays an icon that quite obviously denotes that the link will open a new window has been banded around for awhile now. I know that I have used it in the past, but must admit on this particular subject to, depending on the project's needs, use transitional

Re: [WSG] To target or not

2007-07-19 Thread Hassan Schroeder
Dave Lane wrote: I find it oh-so-frustrating to have a site designer decide how my browsing should work, breaking web conventions Opening new windows *is* a web convention, of long standing, your lack of approval notwithstanding. :-) ... if it insists on opening a new window, it pisses me

RE: [WSG] To target or not

2007-07-19 Thread Philip Kiff
Joyce Evans wrote: I always thought it was a good idea to open links to other websites in a separate window, so you don't lose the visitor. [...] I think that the weight of public opinion has been steadily turning against this view over the past 10 years or so. I would be interested in knowing

RE: [WSG] To target or not

2007-07-19 Thread Philip Kiff
Hassan Schroeder wrote: I've done usability tests where users *preferred* off-site links to open in another window. I find that surprising. I am sure you are right, however, that it is all about context. Certainly if you sat down in a room full of 20- to 25-year-olds today you would not find

RE: [WSG] To target or not

2007-07-19 Thread Joyce Evans
@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] To target or not My suggestion is simple: let it be the content and presentation that keeps people on your site, not gimmickry. Most smart web surfers use Firefox or Opera or a lesser browser that is nonetheless tabbed. If I want to stay on a page, I open

RE: [WSG] To target or not

2007-07-19 Thread Michael Yeaney
-Original Message- Since W3C doesn't allow the target attribute in XHTML Strict, which do you think is better? Having the window opening up with JavaScript or just keeping the page in the same window like W3C wants. I assume the reason for not allowing the target attribute is

RE: [WSG] To target or not

2007-07-19 Thread Stuart Foulstone
Leaving aside that the user wouldn't need to click the back button 20 times to return to your site, as you suggest. Presuming you do not link to your competitors, I would think you provide external links to things which are not present on your site. If users are looking for something not on your

RE: [WSG] To target or not

2007-07-19 Thread Joyce Evans
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] To target or not My suggestion is simple: let it be the content and presentation that keeps people on your site, not gimmickry. Most smart web surfers use Firefox or Opera or a lesser browser that is nonetheless tabbed. If I want to stay on a page, I

Re: [WSG] To target or not

2007-07-19 Thread Gaspar
IN wcag 2, a draft of 17th May of 2007 you can see: » http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-WCAG20-20070517/#consistent-behavior Guideline 3.2 Make Web pages appear and operate in predictable ways 3.2.1 On Focus: When any component receives focus, it does not initiate a change of context. (Level A)

RE: [WSG] To target or not

2007-07-19 Thread Jermayn Parker
We as web designers provide a service to our customers and clients of the website etc so in doing that we need to provide a service that allows the user to browse the website the way *he/ she* prefers and we cannot force the user to browse the way 'we' like it. This means that you do not open a

please avoid forcing people to open pdf in browser! was Re: [WSG] To target or not

2007-07-19 Thread Michael MD
I'm all about web conventions. I didn't realize having a blank target didn't follow web standards. Is that documented somewhere? This one still bothers me ... The alternatives I've seen invariably require javascript and some of those javascript methods give the user less choice and are

Re: please avoid forcing people to open pdf in browser! was Re: [WSG] To target or not

2007-07-19 Thread Bruce
PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2007 8:57 PM Subject: please avoid forcing people to open pdf in browser! was Re: [WSG] To target or not I'm all about web conventions. I didn't realize having a blank target didn't follow web standards. Is that documented somewhere

please avoid forcing people to open pdf in browser! was Re: [WSG] To target or not

2007-07-19 Thread Jermayn Parker
I work at one of the those government places that has those horrible pdfs scattered through out all their horrible pages. I couldnt agree more. I used to believe that you only open in new window for pdfs but now only just realise that maybe its not best practise and could be thought about more.

RE: please avoid forcing people to open pdf in browser! was Re: [WSG] To target or not

2007-07-19 Thread Webb, KerryA
Jermayn wrote: I work at one of the those government places that has those horrible pdfs scattered through out all their horrible pages. I couldnt agree more. And I work with people who build such sites, and I don't have a problem with PDFs per se. If that's an efficient and effective way

Re: please avoid forcing people to open pdf in browser! was Re: [WSG] To target or not

2007-07-19 Thread dwain
Michael MD wrote: I'm all about web conventions. I didn't realize having a blank target didn't follow web standards. Is that documented somewhere? - at least give them the option to right-click and download it for offline viewing! the option is already there if you know about it. how do

Re: please avoid forcing people to open pdf in browser! was Re: [WSG] To target or not

2007-07-19 Thread dwain
Bruce wrote: Personally and from a usability I feel pdf's belong in the office, not on the web. As a definite download link and have a choice between viewing it as html or a pdf download. I hate seeing pdf becoming more popular. i think that offering a substantial amount of information, like

RE: please avoid forcing people to open pdf in browser! was Re: [WSG] To target or not

2007-07-19 Thread Jermayn Parker
I think the problem is that the links are not easily reconised that it is a pdf document you are opening [EMAIL PROTECTED] 20/07/2007 9:23:44 am Jermayn wrote: I work at one of the those government places that has those horrible pdfs scattered through out all their horrible pages. I

Re: please avoid forcing people to open pdf in browser! was Re: [WSG] To target or not

2007-07-19 Thread [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Maybe you should try Foxit Reader 2.0 http://www.foxitsoftware.com/pdf/rd_intro.php PDF's won't be going away anytime soon, particularly from Government websites. There is also zero chance of having all PDF's done as HTML due to staffing and time constraints. The best you'll get is a link to an

Re: [WSG] To target or not

2007-07-15 Thread Diego La Monica
On 15/07/07, Thierry Koblentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Behalf Of Diego La Monica What i've said is: to use windowed Links in it's base configuration you need only to insert into the head block of your page the script element and any element in your html structure identified (id) as

RE: [WSG] To target or not

2007-07-15 Thread Thierry Koblentz
On Behalf Of Diego La Monica Yes is the only extramarkup, but you don't need really to add it: in the head of the script there is a configuration block that allow you to choose in which element (identified by its id) you would put the control for the user to open in same/new window the

Re: [WSG] To target or not

2007-07-14 Thread Ashley Kyd
That's a good point. In an age where we have windows, tabs, screen readers, kiosks, and who knows how many different client configurations, it's probably easier to let the user decide what they want to do with the link. Of course, it depends who your audience is. I'd imagine there would be a few

RE: [WSG] To target or not

2007-07-14 Thread CT: NG
On Behalf Of tales.ebner i think there is a good way to do this, and is still accessible. ian lloyd teaches how to do it. if js is enable. it opens in a new window, if it's disabled it opens in same window. http://www.accessify.com/features/tutorials/the-perfect-popup/ I wrote an article

Re: [WSG] To target or not

2007-07-14 Thread Diego La Monica
http://www.accessify.com/features/tutorials/the-perfect-popup/ I wrote an article about this, this solution does not require extra markup. http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/popup_window_with_no_extra_markup.asp As a side note, I believe it is better to apply a simple class name to the links

RE: [WSG] To target or not

2007-07-14 Thread Thierry Koblentz
On Behalf Of Diego La Monica I wrote an article about this, this solution does not require extra markup. http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/popup_window_with_no_extra_markup.asp Exactly, i wrote the mentioned script in this thread that identify by itself the external links and leave to the

Re: [WSG] To target or not

2007-07-14 Thread Diego La Monica
Thierry, i'm sorry because i haven't jet translated the tutorial and the presentation page, but sure! It is on my ToDo list. :-) What i've said is: to use windowed Links in it's base configuration you need only to insert into the head block of your page the script element and any element in

RE: [WSG] To target or not

2007-07-14 Thread Thierry Koblentz
On Behalf Of Diego La Monica What i've said is: to use windowed Links in it's base configuration you need only to insert into the head block of your page the script element and any element in your html structure identified (id) as windowedLinks. That's all. But applying this ID to some

Re: [WSG] To target or not

2007-07-13 Thread Maria Solange Siebra Borges
tomorrow see you!! bye solange 2007/7/12, Matthew Ohlman [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hello List, I was curious what others opinions were on this issue... Since W3C doesn't allow the target attribute in XHTML Strict, which do you think is better? Having the window opening up with JavaScript or just

Re: [WSG] To target or not

2007-07-13 Thread James Jeffery
Id say dont use pop-ups, nobody likes them w! :P On 7/13/07, Maria Solange Siebra Borges [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: tomorrow see you!! bye solange 2007/7/12, Matthew Ohlman [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hello List, I was curious what others opinions were on this issue... Since W3C doesn't

Re: [WSG] To target or not

2007-07-13 Thread Rob Kirton
*To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org *Subject:* Re: [WSG] To target or not Id say dont use pop-ups, nobody likes them w! :P I agree - in this day and age it makes far more sense to show and hide a div (or whatever) on your page than to throw a whole new page unless you have reams of info to display

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