bill...so you are still telling me pain is a delusion?... tell me next time
when you are in deep pain..try a very bad toothache..see it as a delusion and
don't visit the dentist...how long will you last before you realise it is real
and needs attention?...merle
Merle,
As you should
bill...i see...so if one is in pain..this is an illusion..try telling that to
someone bowled over and in agony...merle
Merle,
I also want to add that experiencing Buddha Nature, such as through zazen, does
not involve a disconnection with the body. It involves a disconnection with
the
Merle,
I don't know how you got from what I said earlier to your post below.
The experience of feeling/touch is real. That experience is Buddha Nature.
The classification of it as 'pain' is the judgmental delusion. Just as the
experience of sight is real. The classification of it as 'a red
'Real' and 'delusion', are also 'classification'.
The Taoist symbol of Yin/Yang may appear to spin, but only if you're
putting some spin on it.
KG
On 8/21/2013 9:43 PM, Bill! wrote:
The experience of feeling/touch is real. That experience is Buddha
Nature. The classification of it as
have you been in pain bill..and thought it was judgemental delusion?...merle
Merle,
I don't know how you got from what I said earlier to your post below.
The experience of feeling/touch is real. That experience is Buddha Nature.
The classification of it as 'pain' is the judgmental
spinning top springs to mind...and it can topple when it stops...merle
'Real' and 'delusion', are also 'classification'.
The Taoist symbol of Yin/Yang may appear to spin, but only if
you're putting some spin on it.
KG
On 8/21/2013 9:43 PM, Bill! wrote:
The experience of
Merle,
I have been in pain before. When I am in pain I don't think of pain as a
judgmental delusion, I think of it as pain and judge it to be bad; and maybe
even think Poor, poor me! Why do I have to suffer all this pain? What did I
do to deserve this? I just want it to go away!.
...Bill!
Bill,
This is one of the reasons I like Zen Forum :)
Siska
-Original Message-
From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2013 05:03:32
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Zen] Re: the human body
Merle
CONGRATULATIONS
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote:
Dear All,
After several years of work my book on the deep nature of reality is now
published and available on Amazon.com
Merle,
No, the body is not a restraint. It is a gateway - at least as far as zen is
concerned. The body, or at least its ability to afford awareness of reality,
is the necessary component of Buddha Nature for not only humans but all beings
as we know them.
...Bill!
--- In
Merle,
I also want to add that experiencing Buddha Nature, such as through zazen, does
not involve a disconnection with the body. It involves a disconnection with
the illusion of self and all dualism.
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@... wrote:
Merle,
No, the
Thanks Bill...
Edgar
On Aug 20, 2013, at 9:02 PM, Bill! wrote:
CONGRATULATIONS
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote:
Dear All,
After several years of work my book on the deep nature of reality is now
published and available on Amazon.com
Merle,
No. I got about 2/3 of the way and then lost interest. I do intend to pick it
up and finish it one of these days...
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:
 bill..finished the book yet bill?
 attention attention
 cheers merle
Â
Edgar,
THAT'S GREAT!
Let us know when it's available on Amazon.com...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote:
Merle,
Don't know about Bill but I've just finished my book It will be published
shortly and available on Amazon
The Title will be
Will do. Thanks Bill...
Edgar
On Aug 16, 2013, at 4:31 AM, Bill! wrote:
Edgar,
THAT'S GREAT!
Let us know when it's available on Amazon.com...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote:
Merle,
Don't know about Bill but I've just finished my
edgar..congratulations...a published book..your first?...merle
Merle,
Don't know about Bill but I've just finished my book It will be published
shortly and available on Amazon
The Title will be 'Reality, a Sweeping New Vision of the Unity of Existence,
Physical Reality,
From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net;
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com;
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: i am here
Sent: Thu, Aug 15, 2013 12:22:35 AM
Merle,
Don't know about Bill but I've just finished my book It will be published
shortly and available on Amazon
The Title
Thanks Merle, yes first...
Edgar
On Aug 15, 2013, at 2:19 AM, Merle Lester wrote:
edgar..congratulations...a published book..your first?...merle
Merle,
Don't know about Bill but I've just finished my book It will be published
shortly and available on Amazon
The
Suresh,
I'm still hear but have been distracted with other things.
I do check the forum everyday but like you have seen no new posts...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, SURESH JAGADEESAN varamtha@... wrote:
Dear all,
I was surprised on this sudden silence in this forum. I thought
me too...all is quiet...cheers merle
Suresh,
I'm still hear but have been distracted with other things.
I do check the forum everyday but like you have seen no new posts...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, SURESH JAGADEESAN varamtha@... wrote:
Dear all,
I was surprised on
Yes, but are you here now? ...Bill!
Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/
* Your
where else would i be?...merle
Yes, but are you here now? ...Bill!
Merle,
To 'be here now' is the same thing as the ISLAND's reminders of Attention!
Attention!...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:
where else would i be?...merle
Yes, but are you here now? ...Bill!
bill..finished the book yet bill?
attention attention
cheers merle
Merle,
To 'be here now' is the same thing as the ISLAND's reminders of Attention!
Attention!...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:
where else would i be?...merle
Merle,
Don't know about Bill but I've just finished my book It will be published
shortly and available on Amazon
The Title will be 'Reality, a Sweeping New Vision of the Unity of Existence,
Physical Reality, Information, Consciousness, Mind and Time'
Edgar
On Aug 14, 2013, at
Edgar,br/br/Congratulations! You must be relieved to have finally finished
it.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Merle,
Writing Java and Android programs (learning, i.e.).
Can't explain.
Who knows what drives us, sumptimes. ;-)
I'll equilibrate, someday.
Friendly, Cousinly, Greetings!, All,
--J.
Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:
hi joe..where you been hiding?...merle
joe..have fun too...hear from you soon... cheers merle
Merle,
Writing Java and Android programs (learning, i.e.).
Can't explain.
Who knows what drives us, sumptimes. ;-)
I'll equilibrate, someday.
Friendly, Cousinly, Greetings!, All,
--J.
Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:
hi
hi joe..where you been hiding?...merle
Kris,
It's fine to see you around and about.
I myself have become scarce, but for a period, and who knows for how long.
As I would wish to tell Merle, 'things are relative, Cousin'.
Anyway, the call was put out to let others' wisdom shine.
is that you KG from a blast in the past?...merle
The point of all pointers is to raise such doubt. Otherwise, there is clarity
and no need of such pointers.
This is not science class. Ramana is not teaching you things to know. You must
go into this and see this directly. It has nothing
Dear KG,
Let me put my understanding on my own questions?
Realized gurus answers are based on receivers as you so mentioned
about different type of Metallurgy, and hence their answers will
contradict if we look at it as if it is addressed to all as common.
But it would have given great meaning
Greetings Suresh!
Insights are not gifts given by others, but innate realizations. Inward
sights. Realizations, rather than learned facts.
If they appear otherwise, or seem triggered by others, then they are
either just adopted concepts or[the insight is that] there is more to
realize about
On 8/2/2013 2:11 AM, Merle Lester wrote:
is that you KG from a blast in the past?...merle
Has it been so long?
KG
yes indeed..where you the one who was into kayaking?... merle
On 8/2/2013 2:11 AM, Merle Lester wrote:
is that you KG from a blast in the past?...merle
Has it been so long?
KG
The point of all pointers is to raise such doubt. Otherwise, there is clarity
and no need of such pointers.
This is not science class. Ramana is not teaching you things to know. You must
go into this and see this directly. It has nothing to do with what you think,
or don't think about it.
Mike,
I did read this newsletter and thought it was excellent!
The only exception I would have with it is its claim that When the method of
silent illumination was taken to Japan it was changed somewhat. The name given
to it, just sitting, means just paying attention to sitting or just keeping
I too went to the ChanCenter and also enjoyed many readings today.
I don't know where I found the following link,
http://amidatrust.ning.com/
but they were offering a link to a free kindle book from amazon called
'Not Everything is Impermanent' by Dharmavidya David Brazier.
I was too late to
I also found an article on Tricycle
http://www.tricycle.com/feature/joy-effort
by Thanissaro Bhikkhu, titled The Joy of Effort.
From the website article:
Now, the Buddha wasn’t telling Rahula to become a passive clod of dirt. He
was teaching Rahula to be grounded, to develop his powers of
goodness me suresh...
sounds like you have no fun at all
joe is it necessary to be so Pure minded?
surely zen is freedom
attachments are only attachments if they over take over ride and destroy our
balance?...
merle
Dear Joe,
Thanks for your offer.
You are right. But for me
Joe,
Yes, most of the upward pumping force of sap in trees is due to capillary
action. The calculated maximum is a little over 400 feet, which is in fact the
height of the highest historically recorded trees.
Edgar
On Jul 24, 2013, at 10:22 PM, Joe wrote:
Suresh,
The water travels
Dear Joe,
Thanks for comment. I do know about capillary action, but you yourself
said that 10 meters high, would be the maximum height that one could
pump water upwards in height, but here it is double and some trees are
much more in height.
To admire creation one need to be innocent, and that
Hi, Edgar,
It's amazing.
I wonder what the limiting element is. Is it the same in all species of trees?
Well, it would only have to be at its max in the trees which grow the
highest, anyway. So, a strong selection-effect, there.
Although, who knows which came first, the Chicken, or
Suresh,
The only real humility is (actual) Selflessness.
Other humility is a discipline, or a charade (a feature of attachment to a
Self).
Other humility is thus not quite real, and definitely not Natural (not a
feature of actual Nature).
Selflessness is attained when all else drops away.
Bill!,
I may be a 16th type: one not patient to read all the others' presumed
characteristics, given by the unknown author, Lovett.
The best Western Buddhists are those who have true teachers and sanghas to
practice with. Little can be said against them, then, if they stick with the
program,
Dear Joe,
Thanks for your offer.
You are right. But for me joining a sangha and practice zen is impossible for
me due to my lifestyle. I am bonded to this family and I don't want to break it
since they are very much innocent and if I do still, then that Karma will not
leave me for free, and
I fall asleep nearly as often as I catch myself having been asleep.
Depending on the moment, it may be a matter of N and N+1 or N-1
--Chris
Thanks,
--Chris
ch...@austin-lane.net
+1-301-270-6524
On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 11:15 AM, Simon buddha...@yahoo.com.au wrote:
Yes, it is true that we
Suresh,
The water travels against gravity up into the heights of the tree, but is
assisted of course by the upward-drawing force of capillary action of the
phloem and xylem tissue(s) of the tree cell structure, the conducting and
supporting tissues of the wood, respectively.
Otherwise, 32
Howdy, Brendan,
Zen is not enough.
Twenty, 30, 40. Now, you're talking!
Years practicing formally, I mean.
--Joe
brendan juggler.sly@... wrote:
I realized that I am nothing. I don't exist as anything. Even reading these
words has nothing to do with what I am. Words can't have anything
Yes, it is true that we are all Enlightened we just may not realise it and we
all have Buddha-Nature.
Not everyone realises these things, that is why we have Zen.
I feel that if anyone can become Enlightened (or realise they are enlightened)
it is through zen.
Unfortunately most people even
What is your CONTINUING experience, Brendan
There are only two mistakes in life, not starting and not going all the way.
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, brendan juggler.sly@... wrote:
I realized that I am nothing. I don't exist as anything. Even reading these
words has nothing to do with
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@... wrote:
On one side we are all fools, but when we realize this we are enlightened,
and when we make efforts in the face of it, we are bodhisattvas.
-- Shunryu Suzuki
...Bill!
Bill,
you need to forget about being a bodhisattva,
Simon,
Welcome! I haven't seen you post before. I'm glad you decided to chime in.
The story goes that we are all enlightened but most of us just don't realize it
yet. That's what the term 'awakening' refers to: waking up to the fact that
we are all Buddha - all enlightened.
Anyway if you
Joe,
Well actually then that was not my point.
I didn't mean to imply that differing schools bring about differing effects on
awakening. Awakening is always sudden. One second you're not awake and the
next second you are.
I was just commenting on the different sects use different techniques
Merle,
You asked: if we did not have dreams... where would we be?.
We would be right here, right now - exactly the same place we'd be if we did
have dreams.
And yes, I have dreams - desires that the future will unfold in a certain way
that is beneficial to my self - but I don't (at least try
thank you..i understand..merle
Merle,
The following snippets are from your response to Bill!, but I'm going to employ
license to reply to them myself :)
You: why are you so adverse to the intellect...?... it is a tool us humans
need to survive
Me: To survive means to live to any point
Suresh,
I believe YOU are responsible for the actions taking place in the world right
now...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, SURESH JAGADEESAN varamtha@... wrote:
Five Samaväya- (Five Causes)Introduction: Who is responsible for the
actions taking place in this world? Hegel said it is
Bill!,
No, I don't think so.
Awakening is awakening.
Upon arrival, it matters not how one arrived. One is simply not attached, not
able to attach, and simply simplified, and one with all our original Human
inheritance (full compliment of faculties).
There is no residue of how one practiced
Bill!, Edgar,
I can explain about the number of degrees measured in a triangle in your space
being a determinant of the geometry of the space you are in, but I can also
agree with Bill! that experience is our only life.
Inference and reasoning can project in advance some other experiences
Bill!,
Well, I was going to say that you are a good man, and true to your word.
Consistent, even. And kindly. But, ...there's no Bill!(!).
Oh, well.
Still, and all... .
(now THERE'S a phrase I've not used in 40 years...).
Still, and all, ...your consistency shows an excellent clarity,
Bill!,
This reads as an encouragement to apply oneself to the first koan, and only the
first koan.
Interesting that the Korean is so close to the Chinese, in the Korean hwadu,
and the Chinese hua-tou.
This, too, is a giveaway: usually the first koan is worked as a hua- tou: e.g.,
Mu (J.), or
Joe,
First of all welcome back!
My experience is not the same as you describe below. Although the initial
awakening (satori) was immediate and complete, delusions and attachments slowly
crept back in and I still have them to some degree to this day. Zen practice
(mainly zazen) helps me to
Bill!,
No, no, don't elevate me, or my awakening. Mine was average, as all of ours
must be. ;-)
I've gone over the same ground several times, too: Multiple awakenings are also
possible, standard, the norm, and common, and documented. ;-)
First go-'round lasted 8 weeks, before the mind ever
Mike,
I disagree that Reality can only be found/known in human nature.
First of all that would mean that only humans can find/know reality which I
believe is false.
Also I believe it is Human Nature that is the source of delusion, and I don't
consider delusion is reality.
I believe it is
Edgar,
I probably am much more proficient in math than you think, but I don't
understand the relevance of your example below.
For example I understand you can determine the shape of a space from inside
that space, but I fail to see how that could prove there is something outside
of that
Bill!,br/br/I'm probably using human nature in a different way than you.
My meaning is more specifically 'body-mind': that reality can only be known
sensorially.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Edgar,br/br/Won't be my job. In high school I never got passed 'sums'.
Still have a maths phobia.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail
for iPad
Merle,
Yet again Edgar misinterprets and misrepresents what I have consistently said.
His count is only 1 off this time, but it's an important 1...
I do NOT believe only I exist, and you and Edgar and everyone else are
delusions.
I believe I and you and Edgar and everyone else are delusions.
Chris,
I do agree with you but take no offense. I don't think Edgar is purposely
misquoting what I say. I think he really believes that's what I say.
To borrow some lyrics from THE BOXER, an old Simon and Garfunkle song, I think
sometimes Edgar hears what he wants to hear and disregards the
Mike,
Yes! That's what I just call 'sentient beings'. Sentient beings have
'body-mind', but I'd have to qualify the word 'mind' in that phrase to mean
'Big Mind' or Buddha Nature. The 'little mind' is the human intellect.
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@... wrote:
bill...you have a problem with human nature?... merle
Mike,
I disagree that Reality can only be found/known in human nature.
First of all that would mean that only humans can find/know reality which I
believe is false.
Also I believe it is Human Nature that is the source of delusion,
i thought we were all buddhas...merle
Mike,
Yes! That's what I just call 'sentient beings'. Sentient beings have
'body-mind', but I'd have to qualify the word 'mind' in that phrase to mean
'Big Mind' or Buddha Nature. The 'little mind' is the human intellect.
...Bill!
--- In
Merle,
No, I don't have a problem with Human Nature. I don't have a problem with
delusions because I see them as delusive - most of the time. My zen practice
is to fully integrate Buddha Nature and Human Nature (delusions)so Human Nature
does not obscure or block-out awareness of Buddha
Bill,
Yes, you are correct that my example does NOT establish anything external to
the space.
However it is 100% self-evident that your view that I am a figment of your
imagination is 100% wrong.
Why? Because here I am sitting here on the other side of the world whether you
or anyone else is
So you know enough of his history to know he is not just writing stuff he
has read? You may find his language inaccurate or unreflective of what his
intent is, but I, again a sensitive soul, find your use of the comic book
zen trope to be a sign of attributing ill will.
Whatever, the question
Attentive witnessing does not require thought - it is an attempt to capture
mere presence, bare awareness, that sort of thing.
I'm still a bit sceptical that all these words aren't just trying to draw
lines in the dust :)
Thanks,
--Chris
ch...@austin-lane.net
+1-301-270-6524
On Fri, Jul 12,
Edgar,
Thanks for the confirmation about my reasoning considering the space.
You are absolutely correct in your first sentence saying it is 100%
self-evident that my statement that your existence as something separate and
completely apart from Merle or Mike or Chris or me. But the key word in
Merle,
Yes, dreams and predictions are delusions especially when they are perceived to
have come true.
And for the 437th time...only experience (sensual) is real IMO.
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:
 bill..so what about dreams and
Merle,
Do you think your perception of 'self' as something distinct and different from
everything else is real?
If you do, then you are justified in thinking my statement is crazy.
If you don't, then I am just agreeing with you.
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester
Merle,
The following snippets are from your response to Bill!, but I'm going to employ
license to reply to them myself :)
You: why are you so adverse to the intellect...?... it is a tool us humans
need to survive
Me: To survive means to live to any point in the future. What is there right
Merle,
I'll respond to your question but you should also get Edgar to respond to get
his side.
IMO Edgar is attached to his intellect. That leads him to want to 'understand'
reality rather than just experience it as it is. Building on that he believes
the logical concepts we perceive
@yahoogroups.com
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2013 02:18:46
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Zen] Re: Worried Sick..illusions
Edgar,
I forgot to address your 'wasting time' comment which IMO is much more
important that the other part.
IMO you feel
Merle,
Buddha Nature and Human Nature working hand-in-hand is the purpose of zen
practice.
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:
bill
 would not human nature and buddha nature work hand in hand... buddha after
all was human..merle
Â
Merle,
Merle,
IMO only experience is real, and by that 'experience' I mean sensory experience
(sight, sound, touch, smell, taste).
That's it. That's all.
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:
 bill..thank you for your clarification...so what is NOT
Merle,
If you are color-blind or totally blind it makes no difference. You experience
what you experience. That which you experience is real. That which you
perceive (think about, intellectualize) is not.
We do interpret our experiences with our mind. That's called perceiving. And
just as
Edgar,
I experience what I experience. You experience what you experience. That is
the only reality that either of us have available to us.
All the rest that you claim to exist is speculation, intellectualizations; in
other words delusions.
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar
Edgar,
I forgot to address your 'wasting time' comment which IMO is much more
important that the other part.
IMO you feel you're 'wasting time' because you have an attachment to
accomplishment. When you don't accomplish what your self has defined as
important then you feel like you've
Edgar,br/br/Every Zen teacher and Buddha agree with you is a bit
revealing... Anyway, no, not exactly. Buddha taught us to go within to discover
reality. Speculating what 'out there' is made of is the role of philosophers
and meta-physicians. If nothing else, the Buddha was practical. That's
Merle,br/br/br/ blind freddie knows there are 2...br/br/I wise and
knowledgable person such as yourself might understand this, but evidently it is
not that obvious given the constant arguing between Edgar and
Bill!.br/br/hey i thought truth was a forbidden word / notion in zen?
Bingo!br/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Merle,br/br/Now you're stuck in the relative. How can you apply your
understanding of the absolute in this
matter?br/br/Mikebr/br/br/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Merle,
I don't really disagree with much of what you say, but many times I don't see
the connection with zen.
For example the idea that we need a consensus so we can function as a society
has nothing to do with zen practice. It certainly might be a goal in a
religion like Buddhism, but not
interesting.
And of course, this writer is very gifted in story-telling...
Siska
-Original Message-
From: Bill! BillSmart@...
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2013 02:18:46
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Zen] Re
Merle,
We don't have to make sense of our experiences. We could just sit in deep
samadhi until we died.
We choose to intellectualize our experiences and use these perceptions as the
basis for making decisions about what actions to take and what not to take.
Although I admit that for most of
bill..thank you for your clarification...so what is NOT an illusion
bill?...and what is real in your world?...merle
Merle,
Sure...as long as you tie it back to zen it's fair game as far as I'm
concerned. What this article is talking about is what Buddhism calls
'suffering'.
Western
Edgar,
I'd like to jump in here...
There are no 'laws of nature', or maybe better said the 'laws of nature' are
human projections (delusions). So is math.
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote:
Joe,
How does nature operate according to the laws of
Merle and Joe,
Awakening can be like a a soft Spring rain or like a flash of lightening.
Here is how the difference between awakening using Soto teaching techniques
(focuses on shikantaza) and Rinzai teaching techniques (focuses on koans):
Awakening using Soto's shikantaza is like strolling
Suresh,
I think you're on to something here because I can recognize a post from you
immediately!
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, SURESH JAGADEESAN varamtha@... wrote:
Dear all,
I have some thought came into my mind that each and every individual
are so unique just like what
bill..this is lovely..thank you..so poetical ..merle
Merle and Joe,
Awakening can be like a a soft Spring rain or like a flash of lightening.
Here is how the difference between awakening using Soto teaching techniques
(focuses on shikantaza) and Rinzai teaching techniques (focuses on
Arg, this just shows to me the futility of words. I was all fine but then
your clarification of precedes etc. leaves me all wanting to argue.
Oh well. How about this for another question:
Is perception something that is related to doing? If no doing is
present, can perception be present?
Chris,
I think perceptions certainly could be seen as 'doing', if you as I do consider
'thinking' as doing something. So to follow it there is no doing there would
be no perceptions.
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by 'attentive witnessing' but if it involves
thinking it would not be
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