Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-17 Thread Scott McGee
On Wed, 16 Oct 2002 15:10:10 -0600, Marc A. Schindler [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Hooking his fingers under his armpits and swelling out. Well, I'm only 48 and have 1 grand-daughter and another grandchild on the way. I am only 44 and will have a grandchild early next year. Sadly, the mother, my

Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-17 Thread Scott McGee
I wrote: I am only 44 and will have a grandchild early next year. Sadly, the mother, my oldest daughter, is just 18 and is not married. More sadly, she has become angry at me for reasons I do not understand and actually told me that she doesn't want anything to do with me, nor does she want

[ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-16 Thread Gary Smith
I grant you your right to oppose foreign powers from interfering in another nation. But then, perhaps Canada should withdraw from the United Nations, as they seem to be in a bunch of nations right now, with Canadian forces If you may recall, we didn't come originally into this position out

Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-16 Thread Scott McGee
On Tue, 15 Oct 2002 18:49:04 -0500, Paul Osborne [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Paul I think when Clinton became President of the US that made everything he did my business. I also feel that being president he had the responsibility to be a good example to me my children and especially my

Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-16 Thread John W. Redelfs
After careful consideration, Wayne and Sandra Riner wrote: Well I have 16 and they are the light of my life, I know us southern girls do get married young but look at the blessings{: I`m only 2 years older then you John. You're making me jealous. grin BTW Elder Riner was transferred about a

Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-16 Thread Scott McGee
On Wed, 16 Oct 2002 13:28:47 -0500, Paul Osborne [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Why would it be illegal for Clinton to have an affair in his office? For all we know his wife was there too! First off, it is against the laws of God and the laws (sadly unenforced) of many states to commit adultery. If

Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-16 Thread Marc A. Schindler
I don't believe it was LBJ who got the US into Vietnam -- but rather JFK. John W. Redelfs wrote: After careful consideration, Gary Smith wrote: I'm no Nixon fan, but actually his goal was to get us OUT of Vietnam (which LBJ got us heavily into) with Honor. I don't believe this. Do you

Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-16 Thread Marc A. Schindler
Hooking his fingers under his armpits and swelling out. Well, I'm only 48 and have 1 grand-daughter and another grandchild on the way. For a while, in fact, until my own grandmother passed away this last April, my grand-daughter had a great-great-grandmother (they met on several occasions and we

Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-16 Thread Dan R Allen
John: We seem to forget that only a generation ago we would not have elected a divorced man, much less a man who is unfaithful to his wife. Ronald Reagan was the first President that was divorced. Dan: Didn't that divorce take place _many_ years before he was elected though? John: In my

Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-16 Thread Marc A. Schindler
John W. Redelfs wrote: After careful consideration, Marc A. Schindler wrote: UN peacekeeping forces are never in a country unless they've been invited in. Invited in by whom? These nations aren't democracies. By the two sides. The way it was originally designed, both sides of a conflict

Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-16 Thread Dan R Allen
Marc: I don't believe it was LBJ who got the US into Vietnam -- but rather JFK. Dan: Right. There were approximately 17,000 US troops in Vietnam by the end of '63, mostly in either advisory or combat support roles. But LBJ definitely escalated that war, first with the Gulf of Tonkin issue,

Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-16 Thread Paul Osborne
But that's not the real issue; the issue is that he stood before the camera and lied to us, then stood before a grand jury and lied to them about that affair. That's why he was impeached. It was an evil investigation brought on by the Gadianton Media. And sorry to say the people of this country

Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-16 Thread Paul Osborne
Most of businesses in this country have policies against employees... The White HOUSE is also for the President to manage his own personal affairs. That is where he lives. It seems that some people on this list don't believe in the right of privacy but think they OWN the lives of government

Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-16 Thread Marc A. Schindler
Dan R Allen wrote: Marc: I don't believe it was LBJ who got the US into Vietnam -- but rather JFK. Dan: Right. There were approximately 17,000 US troops in Vietnam by the end of '63, mostly in either advisory or combat support roles. But LBJ definitely escalated that war, first with the

Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-15 Thread Paul Osborne
I just wish I could know whether or not any of our beloved national leaders intentionally looked the other way while all this was coming down. I have to believe that any one of our national leaders would have given their own lives to prevent 911. (Clinton included). I don't believe the

Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-15 Thread Paul Osborne
We had PROOF that Clinton committed the felonies of perjury and obstruction of justice, but our Senate acquitted him anyway, making them just as guilty as he was. FWIW-- I too would have lied under oath if I had been hounded over my personal sex life. It's nobody's business. Good for Clinton

Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-15 Thread Paul Osborne
After careful consideration, Gary Smith wrote: As for your claim that Bush is a Gadianton, just where is your proof? Is proof needed? It is just common sense. The man in the street does not start wars. Men with wealth and power do. Who has the wealth and power today? It is Bush and

Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-15 Thread John W. Redelfs
After careful consideration, Paul Osborne wrote: FWIW-- I too would have lied under oath if I had been hounded over my personal sex life. It's nobody's business. Good for Clinton for lying and good for Abraham too. --- Comparing Clinton with Abraham is quite a stretch. --JWR

Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-15 Thread Paul Osborne
After careful consideration, Paul Osborne wrote: FWIW-- I too would have lied under oath if I had been hounded over my personal sex life. It's nobody's business. Good for Clinton for lying and good for Abraham too. --- Comparing Clinton with Abraham is quite a stretch. --JWR I wasn't

Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-15 Thread Wayne and Sandra Riner
Paul I think when Clinton became President of the US that made everything he did my business. I also feel that being president he had the responsibility to be a good example to me my children and especially my grandchildren Sandra After careful consideration, Paul Osborne wrote: FWIW-- I too

Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-15 Thread Paul Osborne
Paul I think when Clinton became President of the US that made everything he did my business. I also feel that being president he had the responsibility to be a good example to me my children and especially my grandchildren Sandra I can't agree. What he did in the privacy of his bedroom or

Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-14 Thread Jon Spencer
- Original Message - From: Marc A. Schindler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2002 2:23 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted First of all, I do not oppose the removal of Saddam Hussein from power -- he's every bit the tyrant that people say he

Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-14 Thread John W. Redelfs
After careful consideration, Marc A. Schindler wrote: Funny, but that's what I believe, too. (Well, that he's of our race, anyway, and I think he's *trying* to be decent, he's just in over his head and is a figurehead for more sinister forces [goshdarnit, I'm beginning to sound more and more

Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-14 Thread Marc A. Schindler
A. Schindler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2002 2:23 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted First of all, I do not oppose the removal of Saddam Hussein from power -- he's every bit the tyrant that people say he is. What I oppose is a foreign country

Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-14 Thread Marc A. Schindler
I for one would appreciate the research. I may come off sounding like an egghead, but I'm not the scriptorian half of you are. But I do have a suspicion I know why all the stories end the way they do, but I'll wait for the results of someone's research before I venture forth with my idea. Jon

[ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-14 Thread Gary Smith
Or are you just reading that into such events? Were the Nephites wicked for trying to destroy the Gadiantons? Or were they just not strong enough to accomplish it? Perhaps the Nephites were more righteous when they allowed the Gadiantons to grow in power among the Nephites? Let's not misquote the

Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-14 Thread Paul Osborne
We have no right to say evil things about a person, without strong evidence. GWBush is not perfect by any stretch of the imagination. However, he has not ever shown himself to be an evil man, which is what a Gadianton is. I agree. And, when was the last time our beloved prophet went to the

Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-14 Thread Paul Osborne
As for your claim that Bush is a Gadianton, just where is your proof? There is no proof. The President is a descent man. I'm absolutely sure of it. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or

Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-14 Thread John W. Redelfs
After careful consideration, Gary Smith wrote: Or are you just reading that into such events? Were the Nephites wicked for trying to destroy the Gadiantons? Or were they just not strong enough to accomplish it? Perhaps the Nephites were more righteous when they allowed the Gadiantons to grow in

Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-14 Thread John W. Redelfs
After careful consideration, Gary Smith wrote: As for your claim that Bush is a Gadianton, just where is your proof? Is proof needed? It is just common sense. The man in the street does not start wars. Men with wealth and power do. Who has the wealth and power today? It is Bush and

Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-13 Thread John W. Redelfs
After careful consideration, Jon Spencer wrote: You have often railed against the Gadiantons in our midst. Well, can't you see that Saddam is one of them? The Nephites constantly pursued the Gadiantons - they actively searched for them and tried to destroy them. Were they wrong to do this?

Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-13 Thread John W. Redelfs
After careful consideration, Jon Spencer wrote: Do you understand my position? OK, so you feel that Saddam is not a Gadianton, but that Bush and his controlling CFR are. It doesn't make sense to me, but you have the right to your own thoughts. But if, as you say, the Gospel can only prosper

Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-13 Thread Marc A. Schindler
First of all, I do not oppose the removal of Saddam Hussein from power -- he's every bit the tyrant that people say he is. What I oppose is a foreign country, a superpower who think they have a mandate to police the world, deciding whom to take out and who to leave in charge (if Hussein, why not

Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-13 Thread Paul Osborne
I agree that Saddam is a Gadianton. He is a small one, and Bush is a big one. Gadianton? I cannot agree with this. I see no reason to suspect Bush as a mass murderer. And if this is so; why must I suppose that hundreds of thousands of conservative Latter-day Saints voted for him after

Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-13 Thread Marc A. Schindler
Paul Osborne wrote: I agree that Saddam is a Gadianton. He is a small one, and Bush is a big one. Gadianton? I cannot agree with this. I see no reason to suspect Bush as a mass murderer. And if this is so; why must I suppose that hundreds of thousands of conservative Latter-day

Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-13 Thread Paul Osborne
I cannot agree with this. I see no reason to suspect Bush as a mass murderer. And if this is so; why must I suppose that hundreds of thousands of conservative Latter-day Saints voted for him after careful prayer and consideration as directed by the First Presidency. I'm sorry John, but it

Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-13 Thread Paul Osborne
I think Bush is a descent guy but I didn't vote for him. I didn't even vote. That's even worse, imo. It's throwing your freedom back in the faces of your founding fathers. I don't care. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] GET

Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-13 Thread Steven Montgomery
At 05:45 PM 10/13/2002, you wrote: I cannot agree with this. I see no reason to suspect Bush as a mass murderer. And if this is so; why must I suppose that hundreds of thousands of conservative Latter-day Saints voted for him after careful prayer and consideration as directed by the First

Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-13 Thread Steven Montgomery
At 05:59 PM 10/13/2002, you wrote: At 05:45 PM 10/13/2002, you wrote: I cannot agree with this. I see no reason to suspect Bush as a mass murderer. And if this is so; why must I suppose that hundreds of thousands of conservative Latter-day Saints voted for him after careful prayer and

Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-13 Thread Marc A. Schindler
I understood what you wrote. I was merely pointing out the logical implication of what you wrote. Paul Osborne wrote: I cannot agree with this. I see no reason to suspect Bush as a mass murderer. And if this is so; why must I suppose that hundreds of thousands of conservative Latter-day

Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-13 Thread Marc A. Schindler
Funny, but that's what I believe, too. (Well, that he's of our race, anyway, and I think he's *trying* to be decent, he's just in over his head and is a figurehead for more sinister forces [goshdarnit, I'm beginning to sound more and more like John]). Steven Montgomery wrote: At 05:45 PM

Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-11 Thread vicgh25
Hindsight being what it is; if the circumstances of September 11th were known on September 9th and actions were taken against Afganistan and the terrorists on September 10th; I suspect alot of you would be yelling that this was a war of aggression and not self-defense. Further, I suspect as

Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-11 Thread Marc A. Schindler
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hindsight being what it is; if the circumstances of September 11th were known on September 9th and actions were taken against Afganistan and the terrorists on September 10th; I suspect alot of you would be yelling that this was a war of aggression and not

[ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-10 Thread Gary Smith
From today's WSJ Best of the Web comes the Church's official statement saying that peaceniks are misinterpreting Elder Nelson's General Conference talk: quote Meanwhile, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints http://www.lds.org/media2/letters/0,10599,1592-1,00.html complains that

Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-10 Thread Marc A. Schindler
You have put the /unquote in the wrong place. Neither of the sources you refer to used the word peacenik. The Church statement *also* clarifies that Elder Nelson condemned wars of aggression, and I think that's where the issue here is: would an attack on Iraq constitute a war of aggression, or a

Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-10 Thread Paul Osborne
Regarding the current political environment: At present, the apostles of Mormonism have no business making public announcements about whether a specific war should be fought or not. Apart from revelation and authorization from God, it simply is not the business of the church to assume a

Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-10 Thread Marc A. Schindler
Well put. BTW, is there anyone here on the list who DID think Elder Nelson was making an official statement about Iraq? Or was there someone who felt that given that there's not even an imminent danger from Iraq, no one can justify a war of aggression against Iraq on religious grounds? Paul