Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted
I wrote: > I am only 44 and will have a grandchild early next year. Sadly, the > mother, my oldest daughter, is just 18 and is not married. More sadly, > she has become angry at me for reasons I do not understand and actually > told me that she doesn't want anything to do with me, nor does she want > me to have anything to do with my grandchild when it is born. (All this > while calling me to ask me to do something for her!) I should have noted that the "more sadly" part was personal. It is actually a much greater saddness that she will have a child out of wedlock, something with much greater implications in both this life and the next than her feelings about me. Saddest of all, perhaps is the fact that she has totally rejected the church and Christianity in general and adopted some sort of secular psudo-wiccan philosophy. I have, in the past, spoken with her at length and testified strongly of my knowledge of the truthfulness of the Church so I know that she know my feelings on the matter. I expect that after her child is born in March she will grow up rapidly. Her cousin (my sister's daugther mentioned in the previous post) did so much to her mother's surprise (though she did marry before the birth of the child, thankfully) and my sister has a good relationship with her daughter even though it was similar to my relationship with my daughter before the child was born. I can only hope for the same thing in my case. Scott -- Buttered bread always lands butter side * Would YOU mistake these as down (Unless it sticks to the ceiling!) * anyone`s opinions but my own? Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Scott McGee) Web: http://scott.themcgees.org/ -- http://fastmail.fm - A no graphics, no pop-ups email service / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted
On Wed, 16 Oct 2002 15:10:10 -0600, "Marc A. Schindler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: > Hooking his fingers under his armpits and swelling out. "Well, I'm only > 48 and > have 1 grand-daughter and another grandchild on the way." I am only 44 and will have a grandchild early next year. Sadly, the mother, my oldest daughter, is just 18 and is not married. More sadly, she has become angry at me for reasons I do not understand and actually told me that she doesn't want anything to do with me, nor does she want me to have anything to do with my grandchild when it is born. (All this while calling me to ask me to do something for her!) > For a while, in fact, > until my own grandmother passed away this last April, my grand-daughter > had a > great-great-grandmother (they met on several occasions and we have > pictures of > them together, of course). My sister's oldest daughter had a daughter while my grandfather was still alive. He took great pride in telling people "this child's grandmother is my granddaugter!" All of my children got to know their great-grandfather well. I am very pleased by that because I met my great-grandfather, but never got to know him. I wish I had. Scott -- Buttered bread always lands butter side * Would YOU mistake these as down (Unless it sticks to the ceiling!) * anyone`s opinions but my own? Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Scott McGee) Web: http://scott.themcgees.org/ -- http://fastmail.fm - The professional email service / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted
Dan R Allen wrote: > Marc: > I don't believe it was LBJ who got the US into Vietnam -- but rather JFK. > > Dan: > Right. There were approximately 17,000 US troops in Vietnam by the end of > '63, mostly in either advisory or combat support roles. > But LBJ definitely escalated that war, first with the Gulf of Tonkin issue, That was to get Congress behind him. It was his "9-11" if you will, with one difference: at least 9-11 really happened. > > and then the introduction of using US troops in offensive actions. The US > had pretty much taken over the war from the ARVN by 1965. The number of US > troops in Vietnam was approximately 510,000 by the end of 1968. > Nixon started the withdrawal from Vietnam - 115,000 in April of 1970, and > an additional 150,000 by 1971. > > "John W. Redelfs" wrote: > > > After careful consideration, Gary Smith wrote: > > >I'm no Nixon fan, but actually his goal was to get us OUT of Vietnam > > >(which LBJ got us heavily into) "with Honor." > > > > I don't believe this. Do you have evidence? The man was the biggest > liar > > that ever sat in the White House until Clinton. So how are we even > > supposed to know that his goals were? I think his goal was to "go down > in > > history." In his impossibly vast ego he worried more about his legacy > than > > any other president. Or so it seems to me. > > > > John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > === > > "It may be, for instance, that nothing except the power of > > faith and the authority of the priesthood can save > > individuals and congregations from the atomic holocausts > > that surely shall be." --Bruce R. McConkie > > === > > All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR > > > > > / > > > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > > > / > > > > > -- > Marc A. Schindler > Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland > > "The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and > falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark." > --Michelangelo Buonarroti > > Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the > author > solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author's > employer, > nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. > > / > > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > > / > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland "The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark." --Michelangelo Buonarroti Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted
>Most of businesses in this country have policies against employees... The White HOUSE is also for the President to manage his own personal affairs. That is where he lives. It seems that some people on this list don't believe in the right of privacy but think they OWN the lives of government leaders lock, stock, and barrel. Well you don't. The Senate has spoken! Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted
>But that's not the real issue; the issue is that he stood before the camera >and lied to us, then stood before a grand jury and lied to them about that >affair. That's why he was impeached. It was an evil investigation brought on by the Gadianton Media. And sorry to say the people of this country wanted all the dirt because that is what they enjoy. Sad and sorry. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted
Marc: I don't believe it was LBJ who got the US into Vietnam -- but rather JFK. Dan: Right. There were approximately 17,000 US troops in Vietnam by the end of '63, mostly in either advisory or combat support roles. But LBJ definitely escalated that war, first with the Gulf of Tonkin issue, and then the introduction of using US troops in offensive actions. The US had pretty much taken over the war from the ARVN by 1965. The number of US troops in Vietnam was approximately 510,000 by the end of 1968. Nixon started the withdrawal from Vietnam - 115,000 in April of 1970, and an additional 150,000 by 1971. "John W. Redelfs" wrote: > After careful consideration, Gary Smith wrote: > >I'm no Nixon fan, but actually his goal was to get us OUT of Vietnam > >(which LBJ got us heavily into) "with Honor." > > I don't believe this. Do you have evidence? The man was the biggest liar > that ever sat in the White House until Clinton. So how are we even > supposed to know that his goals were? I think his goal was to "go down in > history." In his impossibly vast ego he worried more about his legacy than > any other president. Or so it seems to me. > > John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] > === > "It may be, for instance, that nothing except the power of > faith and the authority of the priesthood can save > individuals and congregations from the atomic holocausts > that surely shall be." --Bruce R. McConkie > === > All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR > > / > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland "The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark." --Michelangelo Buonarroti Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author's employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted
"John W. Redelfs" wrote: > After careful consideration, Marc A. Schindler wrote: > >UN peacekeeping forces are never in a country unless they've been invited in. > > Invited in by whom? These nations aren't democracies. By the two sides. The way it was originally designed, both sides of a conflict had to invite peacekeeping forces in to help enforce ceasefires. Unfortunately it's changed since then and usually these days the Security Council decided when and where to send peacekeepers, and that just isn't what it was intended to do. You have to have a genuine desire for peace on both sides or it just won't work. I know that's only a partial answer to your question, but there you have it. > So the people > surely did not invite them. And in many if not most cases the > dictatorships involved are one that we ourselves have set up in power. > Therefore, all we have to do is tell the friendly dictator, "Invite us in, > or we will call in your loans." This invitation you speak of is a charade, > a sham. > > John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland "The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark." --Michelangelo Buonarroti Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted
John: We seem to forget that only a generation ago we would not have elected a divorced man, much less a man who is unfaithful to his wife. Ronald Reagan was the first President that was divorced. Dan: Didn't that divorce take place _many_ years before he was elected though? John: In my opinion the argument that a President's private life is nobody's business is a wrong headed argument. It is impossible to keep that private life from spilling over into his public life. After President Clinton's escapades with Monica Lewinsky, just how seriously do you think other world leaders took him? I'll bet they were laughing up their sleeves. And since representing our country is one of the President's most important responsibilities, Clinton's private life was very much our business. Dan: I agree with you here John, except that the other leaders were laughing up their sleeves at us; mistresses are considered a perk of the position in most other countries. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted
Hooking his fingers under his armpits and swelling out. "Well, I'm only 48 and have 1 grand-daughter and another grandchild on the way." For a while, in fact, until my own grandmother passed away this last April, my grand-daughter had a great-great-grandmother (they met on several occasions and we have pictures of them together, of course). "John W. Redelfs" wrote: > After careful consideration, Jon Spencer wrote: > Ditto. Except that I surely hope I have no grandchildren yet. I'm old > enough (54), but my oldest is 16, and he is most definitely NOT old enough! > --- > > Well, I am 57 and have two married daughters. Still no grandchildren. :( > > / > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland "The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark." --Michelangelo Buonarroti Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted
I don't believe it was LBJ who got the US into Vietnam -- but rather JFK. "John W. Redelfs" wrote: > After careful consideration, Gary Smith wrote: > >I'm no Nixon fan, but actually his goal was to get us OUT of Vietnam > >(which LBJ got us heavily into) "with Honor." > > I don't believe this. Do you have evidence? The man was the biggest liar > that ever sat in the White House until Clinton. So how are we even > supposed to know that his goals were? I think his goal was to "go down in > history." In his impossibly vast ego he worried more about his legacy than > any other president. Or so it seems to me. > > John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] > === > "It may be, for instance, that nothing except the power of > faith and the authority of the priesthood can save > individuals and congregations from the atomic holocausts > that surely shall be." --Bruce R. McConkie > === > All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR > > / > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland "The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark." --Michelangelo Buonarroti Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted
>I most streniously disagree with that. What he does in his bedroom (or >any other private place) is not our business SO LONG AS IT IS NOT >ILLEGAL. What he does in his office chair, office, or any other >government location most definately IS our business. If he engaged in >illegal sexual acts then it is our business. If he lied to congress >concerning a valid investigation, then it was not only our business, but >it became our responsibility to impeach him for it. Paul: Why would it be illegal for Clinton to have an affair in his office? For all we know his wife was there too! Lots of people do these things in odd places. Since when is having an affair illegal or since when is doing something sexual in the privacy of your office--behind closed doors, illegal? So what! It's his business. Lots of people do that kind of stuff. I don't understand why people are so interested in Clinton's sexual personal appetites and then go and read about it on the web. That is so sick. We should all stay out of his business. It's not for us to know. And, if you have a problem with it then I suggest you take it up with the Senate which has already made the ultimate legal ruling on the matter. Sorry, but your wrong. :-) Dan: Most of businesses in this country have policies against employees engaging in sexual activity on company property, including the government, Paul. Those policies are in place not because the companies want to control your life, but because those activities can have a very negative affect on the productivity and image of the company. But that's not the real issue; the issue is that he stood before the camera and lied to us, then stood before a grand jury and lied to them about that affair. That's why he was impeached. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted
On Wed, 16 Oct 2002 13:28:47 -0500, "Paul Osborne" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: > Why would it be illegal for Clinton to have an affair in his office? For > all we know his wife was there too! First off, it is against the laws of God and the laws (sadly unenforced) of many states to commit adultery. If the president commits and illegal act, it is the business of the people of this nation. Second, just as I would be promptly fired from my job for having adulterous sex in my office, so the Office of the President of the United States is our's, not his, and should be treated with appropriate respect. He should have been fired for that, which, in his job, would have been impeachment. Simple. Now, as to his wife. If I have sex with my wife in my office, I am still pretty sure I would get fired. That alone should tell you that sexual conduct is grossly inaporporiate in the workplace, and that ANY workplace should be kept free of such things. As a representative of the people, the President is responsible to demonstrate the BEST of the nation, not the worst. If he had had sex with his wife in his office, he would still have disgraced the nation and should have left office as a result. Is this clear enough of a description of my feelings. I fear it is far too graphic for the comfort of many on the list. Scott Lots of people do these things in odd > places. Since when is having an affair illegal or since when is doing > something sexual in the privacy of your office--behind closed doors, > illegal? So what! It's his business. Lots of people do that kind of > stuff. I don't understand why people are so interested in Clinton's > sexual personal appetites and then go and read about it on the web. That > is so sick. We should all stay out of his business. It's not for us to > know. And, if you have a problem with it then I suggest you take it up > with the Senate which has already made the ultimate legal ruling on the > matter. Sorry, but your wrong. :-) > > Paul O > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. > > / > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > > > -- Buttered bread always lands butter side * Would YOU mistake these as down (Unless it sticks to the ceiling!) * anyone`s opinions but my own? Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Scott McGee) Web: http://scott.themcgees.org/ -- http://fastmail.fm/ - Access your email from home and the web / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted
After careful consideration, Marc A. Schindler wrote: >UN peacekeeping forces are never in a country unless they've been invited in. Invited in by whom? These nations aren't democracies. So the people surely did not invite them. And in many if not most cases the dictatorships involved are one that we ourselves have set up in power. Therefore, all we have to do is tell the friendly dictator, "Invite us in, or we will call in your loans." This invitation you speak of is a charade, a sham. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** "In regard to the recording of history, the thing that is most important is accuracy. If history is not accurate, it is harmful. It has been said that history is what historians declare it shall be, and many historians write with that thought in mind." (Joseph Fielding Smith Jr., Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.2, p.198) *** All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted
>I most streniously disagree with that. What he does in his bedroom (or >any other private place) is not our business SO LONG AS IT IS NOT >ILLEGAL. What he does in his office chair, office, or any other >government location most definately IS our business. If he engaged in >illegal sexual acts then it is our business. If he lied to congress >concerning a valid investigation, then it was not only our business, but >it became our responsibility to impeach him for it. Why would it be illegal for Clinton to have an affair in his office? For all we know his wife was there too! Lots of people do these things in odd places. Since when is having an affair illegal or since when is doing something sexual in the privacy of your office--behind closed doors, illegal? So what! It's his business. Lots of people do that kind of stuff. I don't understand why people are so interested in Clinton's sexual personal appetites and then go and read about it on the web. That is so sick. We should all stay out of his business. It's not for us to know. And, if you have a problem with it then I suggest you take it up with the Senate which has already made the ultimate legal ruling on the matter. Sorry, but your wrong. :-) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted
After careful consideration, Scott McGee wrote: >I most streniously disagree with that. What he does in his bedroom (or >any other private place) is not our business SO LONG AS IT IS NOT >ILLEGAL. What he does in his office chair, office, or any other >government location most definately IS our business. If he engaged in >illegal sexual acts then it is our business. If he lied to congress >concerning a valid investigation, then it was not only our business, but >it became our responsibility to impeach him for it. Because we are a democracy (actually a republic, but you know what I mean), we are responsible for our government. If it behaves badly, then it is our fault. We didn't have to elect someone who brings shame upon himself, his office, our nation and ourselves. Common sense should tell any voter that a man who lies, cheats, and steals in his private life is going to do the same thing in his public life. If he breaks his covenants made to his wife by committing adultery, it is unreasonable to suppose he will not break his covenants made with his constituents or his nation. An adulterer is a traitor to his wife and family. And if he is the President, he is a traitor to his nation. We seem to forget that only a generation ago we would not have elected a divorced man, much less a man who is unfaithful to his wife. Ronald Reagan was the first President that was divorced. In my opinion the argument that a President's private life is nobody's business is a wrong headed argument. It is impossible to keep that private life from spilling over into his public life. After President Clinton's escapades with Monica Lewinsky, just how seriously do you think other world leaders took him? I'll bet they were laughing up their sleeves. And since representing our country is one of the President's most important responsibilities, Clinton's private life was very much our business. In other words, Paul. You and I are miles apart on this one. But I'm glad you have an opinion. Too many people just don't care one way or the other. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === "When attacked by error, truth is better served by silence than by a bad argument." --Dallin Oaks === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted
After careful consideration, Wayne and Sandra Riner wrote:
>Well I have 16 and they are the light of my life, I know us southern girls
>do get married young but look at the blessings{:> I`m only 2 years older
>then you John.
You're making me jealous. BTW Elder Riner was transferred about a
week ago. My family surely did enjoy him while he was here. If the rest
of your grandchildren are like him, you are one lucky grandmother.
John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED]
===
"When attacked by error, truth is better served by silence
than by a bad argument." --Dallin Oaks
===
All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR
/
/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at ///
/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html ///
/
==^
This email was sent to: archive@jab.org
EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n
Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail!
http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register
==^
Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted
UN peacekeeping forces are never in a country unless they've been invited in. Gary Smith wrote: > I grant you your right to oppose foreign powers from interfering in > another nation. But then, perhaps Canada should withdraw from the United > Nations, as they seem to be in a bunch of nations right now, with > Canadian forces > > If you may recall, we didn't come originally into this position out of > our own volition. We preferred to be isolationists for most of our > history. It wasn't until Europe dragged us into their exploits, in an > attempt to keep their wars and fights from pouring over into other areas > of the world (Boxer Rebellion, anyone?). Not until after the Second war > to end all wars did we realize we had to be active in the world to keep > the bad guys at bay and to ensure democracy survived. Were we perfect in > our attempts? No. But I can just imagine how much worse the world would > be in right now, had we not stepped in on occasion. Thanks to our "cowboy > diplomacy" millions are living in democracies today, rather than under > the grip of communism, fascism and other totalitarian regimes. > > If you are so intent on Al-Assad and Musharaf, why don't you suggest > Canada work on them? > > I would be very happy to allow Canada to step in and be the new world > police force. Heck, I'm sure we could get a few billion dollars a year > sent your way from our tax base, if you would take it over for us. > The point isn't who fulfills the job, it's whether the job should exist in the first place. In any case, what I personally am in favour of is a regional superpower system, whereby the US, for instance, would be the superpower responsible for North America and the Caribbean. But that's all. > > We have, in the past, tried to put more power with the United Nations. > Remember how we let them go into several nations in the past decade to > handle the problems? What ended up happening in virtually every instance? > The French refuse to give their soldiers bullets, and the problem > children end up laughing in the UN's face. The UN would blow it and turn > to us to bail them out. Why are we the world's police force? Because no > one else is serious enough to do the job, and so they keep coming back to > us to handle it. > This is a misreading of history. In a number of cases, such as Rwanda, where a Canadian Maj. Gen. was in charge of the UN peacekeeping forces, the UN vastly undermanned the force, they were encouraged to go in by the US, who promised materiel support which wasn't forthcoming. It was Belgium which withdrew its forces in disgust, not France, and Canadians were left with nothing to do but stand by and watch Tutsis and Hutus slaughter each other. This was at a time when the US was several billions dollars in arrears in UN payments. > > We have chosen to concentrate on Saddam Hussein first. Why? Because we > see him as OUR major threat in the area at this time. \ Why? And why him and not Mussharaf? > If Canada sees > someone else as a major threat, they are welcome to step in and > straighten out the problem. Arm chair warriors need not apply. Back seat > drivers not needed, either. > I'm not a back seat driver. I'm a citizen with the right to vote and express my opinion. I've voted in every municipal, provincial and federal election for which I've been present. > > K'aya K'ama, > Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland "The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark." --Michelangelo Buonarroti Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted
"with honour" is the occidental version of the oriental "saving face." Gary Smith wrote: > I'm no Nixon fan, but actually his goal was to get us OUT of Vietnam > (which LBJ got us heavily into) "with Honor." Withdrawals take time, > especially when you are trying to prepare the South Vietnamese to > continue the war on their own. > > How many innocent civilians died in the first Gulf War? Depends on your > definition of "civilian." If you mean the Iraqi soldiers that we bombed, > who were sitting in the middle of Kuwait when we bombed them, yes I guess > there were a few hundred thousand casualties. > > However, if you mean the average person living in a city, then there were > very few. Our bombing targeted military targets. Some bombs missed their > targets, yes. But the numbers killed were at most in the hundreds of > civilians, not thousands. Oh, BTW, how many Kuwaiti civilians were > killed, raped or harmed by the Iraqi soldiers? Thousands. > > So, I guess it is a fair trade off. > > Yes, our nation tends to concentrate on wars that affect us. Yes, oil is > a consideration because people like you and me enjoy our cars and > electricity. However, blaming us for Africa's problems is wrong. Even > with our vast resources, we don't have limitless resources. We have gone > into a few African nations before to help. Remember Sudan? Just how were > we to stop a genocide war in Rwanda? And to repeat a mantra of Marc's, > why does it always have to be the USA that stops the problems in the > world? Why are we slammed for not helping in Africa, when we have a > perfectly useless United Nations sitting in prime American real estate > that should be slammed for not doing their job. After all, isn't that > what their charter is about? Last I looked, the USA's charter was to > defend ourselves and our interests. It would have been nice if we could > stop all the genocides in the world, as well as walk every little old > lady across the street. However, we don't have the ability to be all > things. So we must pick and choose, and hopefully our efforts don't cause > harm, and hopefully we pick the right things for the right purpose. > > We currently are worked up over Hussein due to his eagerness to obtain > weapons of mass destruction and his compunction to use such items. If it > were only over oil, it would be easier for us just to go to the UN and > ask that the sanctions on Iraq be dropped. I'm sure that would make a lot > of oil companies very happy. However, we have a greater issue, based not > upon oil, but upon preserving the lives of hundreds of thousands of > people in our metropolitan areas. > > Don't worry, John. I think Ketchikan is a good hide out. I highly doubt > the huge radical Muslim population in Juneau will find their way to your > island. OTOH, I happen to live in the town where the Air Force has its > major schools, including Air War College, where we train Colonels to be > our future Generals. Definitely a place to loose a nuke. Personally, I > am glad we are trying to slow the development of high grade weapons by > Saddam. > > Nixon wasn't impeached because he resigned prior to it happening. He > wasn't prosecuted because Ford pardoned him. These are both > Constitutional events, even if we don't like the outcome. In fact, my > parents worked on a campaign to have Ford impeached for his pardoning > Nixon. Yes, there is corruption. I have no doubt of that. Yes, there are > those who want to destroy the Constitution and this nation from inside. > But I can't fight a shadow, neither could the Nephites. Only when the > Gadiantons came to light were they able to fight them. > > BTW, Gadiantons were BOTH internal and external to the nation. The > internal ones kept hidden until they gained power enough to obtain the > government. The external ones actually had their own government and > places of resort/nation. They became so powerful that the Nephites and > Lamanites had to gather together in Lachoneus' day to save themselves > from them. So it isn't that we can only fall from within, there are just > as many dangers from without. However, our faith and repentance will > determine whether we survive the onslaughts that occur. > > K'aya K'ama, > Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www > .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html > "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." - > Johann Wolfgang von Goethe > > JWR: > Was Nixon actively killing civilians when he sent 60,000 American > fighting > men to Vietnam with no intentions of accomplishing anything? How many > innocent civilians died during the Persian Gulf War of George Bush, Sr? > A > hundred thousand? Two hundred thousand? > > > > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. > >
Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted
On Tue, 15 Oct 2002 18:49:04 -0500, "Paul Osborne" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: > >Paul I think when Clinton became President of the US that made > everything he > >did my business. I also feel that being president he had the > responsibility > >to be a good example to me my children and especially my grandchildren > >Sandra > > > I can't agree. What he did in the privacy of his bedroom or office chair > is NOT our business. It's not our business to know about the sexual > practices of the leaders of our country. I most streniously disagree with that. What he does in his bedroom (or any other private place) is not our business SO LONG AS IT IS NOT ILLEGAL. What he does in his office chair, office, or any other government location most definately IS our business. If he engaged in illegal sexual acts then it is our business. If he lied to congress concerning a valid investigation, then it was not only our business, but it became our responsibility to impeach him for it. Scott -- Buttered bread always lands butter side * Would YOU mistake these as down (Unless it sticks to the ceiling!) * anyone`s opinions but my own? Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Scott McGee) Web: http://scott.themcgees.org/ -- http://fastmail.fm/ - A no graphics, no pop-ups email service / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted
Well I have 16 and they are the light of my life, I know us southern girls
do get married young but look at the blessings{:> I`m only 2 years older
then you John.
Sandra
> After careful consideration, Jon Spencer wrote:
> Ditto. Except that I surely hope I have no grandchildren yet. I'm old
> enough (54), but my oldest is 16, and he is most definitely NOT old
enough!
> ---
>
> Well, I am 57 and have two married daughters. Still no grandchildren. :(
/
/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at ///
/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html ///
/
==^
This email was sent to: archive@jab.org
EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n
Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail!
http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register
==^
Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted
After careful consideration, Gary Smith wrote: >Yes, our nation tends to concentrate on wars that affect us. Yes, oil is >a consideration because people like you and me enjoy our cars and >electricity. However, blaming us for Africa's problems is wrong. Even >with our vast resources, we don't have limitless resources. We have gone >into a few African nations before to help. Remember Sudan? Just how were >we to stop a genocide war in Rwanda? In my view, you are just explaining why our foreign and military policies are immoral. You aren't explaining how they are moral. Or if you are, it is escaping me. This country is the largest free trade block on earth. If there is any nation that could be self-sufficient, it is this one. We don't need to go about the earth killing whomever we please in order to protect our "interests." John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === "It may be, for instance, that nothing except the power of faith and the authority of the priesthood can save individuals and congregations from the atomic holocausts that surely shall be." --Bruce R. McConkie === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted
After careful consideration, Gary Smith wrote: >I'm no Nixon fan, but actually his goal was to get us OUT of Vietnam >(which LBJ got us heavily into) "with Honor." I don't believe this. Do you have evidence? The man was the biggest liar that ever sat in the White House until Clinton. So how are we even supposed to know that his goals were? I think his goal was to "go down in history." In his impossibly vast ego he worried more about his legacy than any other president. Or so it seems to me. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === "It may be, for instance, that nothing except the power of faith and the authority of the priesthood can save individuals and congregations from the atomic holocausts that surely shall be." --Bruce R. McConkie === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted
After careful consideration, Jon Spencer wrote: Ditto. Except that I surely hope I have no grandchildren yet. I'm old enough (54), but my oldest is 16, and he is most definitely NOT old enough! --- Well, I am 57 and have two married daughters. Still no grandchildren. :( / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted
I'm no Nixon fan, but actually his goal was to get us OUT of Vietnam (which LBJ got us heavily into) "with Honor." Withdrawals take time, especially when you are trying to prepare the South Vietnamese to continue the war on their own. How many innocent civilians died in the first Gulf War? Depends on your definition of "civilian." If you mean the Iraqi soldiers that we bombed, who were sitting in the middle of Kuwait when we bombed them, yes I guess there were a few hundred thousand casualties. However, if you mean the average person living in a city, then there were very few. Our bombing targeted military targets. Some bombs missed their targets, yes. But the numbers killed were at most in the hundreds of civilians, not thousands. Oh, BTW, how many Kuwaiti civilians were killed, raped or harmed by the Iraqi soldiers? Thousands. So, I guess it is a fair trade off. Yes, our nation tends to concentrate on wars that affect us. Yes, oil is a consideration because people like you and me enjoy our cars and electricity. However, blaming us for Africa's problems is wrong. Even with our vast resources, we don't have limitless resources. We have gone into a few African nations before to help. Remember Sudan? Just how were we to stop a genocide war in Rwanda? And to repeat a mantra of Marc's, why does it always have to be the USA that stops the problems in the world? Why are we slammed for not helping in Africa, when we have a perfectly useless United Nations sitting in prime American real estate that should be slammed for not doing their job. After all, isn't that what their charter is about? Last I looked, the USA's charter was to defend ourselves and our interests. It would have been nice if we could stop all the genocides in the world, as well as walk every little old lady across the street. However, we don't have the ability to be all things. So we must pick and choose, and hopefully our efforts don't cause harm, and hopefully we pick the right things for the right purpose. We currently are worked up over Hussein due to his eagerness to obtain weapons of mass destruction and his compunction to use such items. If it were only over oil, it would be easier for us just to go to the UN and ask that the sanctions on Iraq be dropped. I'm sure that would make a lot of oil companies very happy. However, we have a greater issue, based not upon oil, but upon preserving the lives of hundreds of thousands of people in our metropolitan areas. Don't worry, John. I think Ketchikan is a good hide out. I highly doubt the huge radical Muslim population in Juneau will find their way to your island. OTOH, I happen to live in the town where the Air Force has its major schools, including Air War College, where we train Colonels to be our future Generals. Definitely a place to loose a nuke. Personally, I am glad we are trying to slow the development of high grade weapons by Saddam. Nixon wasn't impeached because he resigned prior to it happening. He wasn't prosecuted because Ford pardoned him. These are both Constitutional events, even if we don't like the outcome. In fact, my parents worked on a campaign to have Ford impeached for his pardoning Nixon. Yes, there is corruption. I have no doubt of that. Yes, there are those who want to destroy the Constitution and this nation from inside. But I can't fight a shadow, neither could the Nephites. Only when the Gadiantons came to light were they able to fight them. BTW, Gadiantons were BOTH internal and external to the nation. The internal ones kept hidden until they gained power enough to obtain the government. The external ones actually had their own government and places of resort/nation. They became so powerful that the Nephites and Lamanites had to gather together in Lachoneus' day to save themselves from them. So it isn't that we can only fall from within, there are just as many dangers from without. However, our faith and repentance will determine whether we survive the onslaughts that occur. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe JWR: Was Nixon actively killing civilians when he sent 60,000 American fighting men to Vietnam with no intentions of accomplishing anything? How many innocent civilians died during the Persian Gulf War of George Bush, Sr? A hundred thousand? Two hundred thousand? GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^
[ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted
I grant you your right to oppose foreign powers from interfering in another nation. But then, perhaps Canada should withdraw from the United Nations, as they seem to be in a bunch of nations right now, with Canadian forces If you may recall, we didn't come originally into this position out of our own volition. We preferred to be isolationists for most of our history. It wasn't until Europe dragged us into their exploits, in an attempt to keep their wars and fights from pouring over into other areas of the world (Boxer Rebellion, anyone?). Not until after the Second war to end all wars did we realize we had to be active in the world to keep the bad guys at bay and to ensure democracy survived. Were we perfect in our attempts? No. But I can just imagine how much worse the world would be in right now, had we not stepped in on occasion. Thanks to our "cowboy diplomacy" millions are living in democracies today, rather than under the grip of communism, fascism and other totalitarian regimes. If you are so intent on Al-Assad and Musharaf, why don't you suggest Canada work on them? I would be very happy to allow Canada to step in and be the new world police force. Heck, I'm sure we could get a few billion dollars a year sent your way from our tax base, if you would take it over for us. We have, in the past, tried to put more power with the United Nations. Remember how we let them go into several nations in the past decade to handle the problems? What ended up happening in virtually every instance? The French refuse to give their soldiers bullets, and the problem children end up laughing in the UN's face. The UN would blow it and turn to us to bail them out. Why are we the world's police force? Because no one else is serious enough to do the job, and so they keep coming back to us to handle it. We have chosen to concentrate on Saddam Hussein first. Why? Because we see him as OUR major threat in the area at this time. If Canada sees someone else as a major threat, they are welcome to step in and straighten out the problem. Arm chair warriors need not apply. Back seat drivers not needed, either. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Marc: First of all, I do not oppose the removal of Saddam Hussein from power -- he's every bit the tyrant that people say he is. What I oppose is a foreign country, a superpower who think they have a mandate to police the world, deciding whom to take out and who to leave in charge (if Hussein, why not al-Assad and Mussharaf, as I keep asking). GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted
>Paul I think when Clinton became President of the US that made everything he >did my business. I also feel that being president he had the responsibility >to be a good example to me my children and especially my grandchildren >Sandra And one more thing. If the media was responsible you probably never would have heard of the scandal. The problem is people love a scandal. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted
>Paul I think when Clinton became President of the US that made everything he >did my business. I also feel that being president he had the responsibility >to be a good example to me my children and especially my grandchildren >Sandra I can't agree. What he did in the privacy of his bedroom or office chair is NOT our business. It's not our business to know about the sexual practices of the leaders of our country. We do not OWN them. They have a job to do and they get paid to do it. Likewise, your company and boss have no right to question you about your sexual acts and if they were to publish stuff you would probably sew them. Its none of their business. And, just because a man is elected President does not mean he has to put his naked body on the table for everyone to gawk at. That is so sick! No man has to choose the moral highroad just because they are President and open their bedroom doors for the world to see. Neither can we impose our values on them. President Clinton had a job to do and he was paid to get it done. Unfortunately people insisted that they know all about his sex habits. We elect our officials based on what we know about them before hand. That doesn't mean after they are elected we can strip them of their clothes and shame them in front of the whole world. President Clinton made mistakes--that's true. But so does everyone. And that includes young men who are preparing to go on missions until the new bar is enforced. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted
Ditto. Except that I surely hope I have no grandchildren yet. I'm old enough (54), but my oldest is 16, and he is most definitely NOT old enough! Jon - Original Message - From: "Wayne and Sandra Riner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 2:23 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted > Paul I think when Clinton became President of the US that made everything he > did my business. I also feel that being president he had the responsibility > to be a good example to me my children and especially my grandchildren > Sandra / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted
Paul I think when Clinton became President of the US that made everything he did my business. I also feel that being president he had the responsibility to be a good example to me my children and especially my grandchildren Sandra > >After careful consideration, Paul Osborne wrote: > >FWIW-- I too would have lied under oath if I had been hounded over my > >personal sex life. It's nobody's business. Good for Clinton for lying > and > >good for Abraham too. > >--- > > > >Comparing Clinton with Abraham is quite a stretch. --JWR > > > I wasn't comparing the men. I was comparing the principles involved. It > wasn't the business of the sex hungry murderous Egyptians to know that > Sarah was Abraham's wife so Abraham lied as he was told to do. Good for > him. > > Likewise, it wasn't the business of the whole world to tear into > Clinton's personal sex habits, so he lied. Good for him. I would have > done the same. I personally wasn't interested in the pornographic garbage > the media published and I did not read about it on the web when the > report was published. > > That makes me pretty clean; huh? > > Paul O > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted
>After careful consideration, Paul Osborne wrote: >FWIW-- I too would have lied under oath if I had been hounded over my >personal sex life. It's nobody's business. Good for Clinton for lying and >good for Abraham too. >--- > >Comparing Clinton with Abraham is quite a stretch. --JWR I wasn't comparing the men. I was comparing the principles involved. It wasn't the business of the sex hungry murderous Egyptians to know that Sarah was Abraham's wife so Abraham lied as he was told to do. Good for him. Likewise, it wasn't the business of the whole world to tear into Clinton's personal sex habits, so he lied. Good for him. I would have done the same. I personally wasn't interested in the pornographic garbage the media published and I did not read about it on the web when the report was published. That makes me pretty clean; huh? Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted
After careful consideration, Paul Osborne wrote: FWIW-- I too would have lied under oath if I had been hounded over my personal sex life. It's nobody's business. Good for Clinton for lying and good for Abraham too. --- Comparing Clinton with Abraham is quite a stretch. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted
>After careful consideration, Gary Smith wrote: >As for your claim that Bush is a Gadianton, just where is your proof? >>Is proof needed? It is just common sense. The man in the street does not >>start wars. Men with wealth and power do. Who has the wealth and power >>today? It is Bush and company. Yes proof is needed, John. You have more or less called someone a murderer and that is a heavy thing to say; we are all held accountable for what we say. I was going to vote for Bush but I didn't get off my lazy butt and get registered in time. Please prove to me that Bush is a Gadianton. I KNOW you cant do that. I think it is your opinion and you are entitled to that. But--bear in mind that many people in the church including on this list prayerfully studied the issues and prayed to Heavenly Father about who they should vote for as President of the United States. Is The Spirit a robber for inspiring thousands of LDS people to vote for a robber? I see a contradiction in this matter, John. The prophet does NOT support your theory. The prophet will glady shake hands with the President and promote his genealogy and posterity to the third and fourth generation. Bush is a descent man. I know it. And I know God lives too. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted
>We had PROOF that Clinton >committed the felonies of perjury and obstruction of justice, but our >Senate acquitted him anyway, making them just as guilty as he was. FWIW-- I too would have lied under oath if I had been hounded over my personal sex life. It's nobody's business. Good for Clinton for lying and good for Abraham too. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted
>I just wish I could know whether or not any of our beloved national leaders >intentionally looked the other way while all this was coming down. I have to believe that any one of our national leaders would have given their own lives to prevent 911. (Clinton included). I don't believe the conspiracy theories. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted
After careful consideration, Gary Smith wrote: >As for your claim that Bush is a Gadianton, just where is your proof? Is proof needed? It is just common sense. The man in the street does not start wars. Men with wealth and power do. Who has the wealth and power today? It is Bush and company. >Saddam is heavily engaged in terrorist activities, even paying off the >families of suicide bombers. Where do you see Bush actively killing civilians? Was Nixon actively killing civilians when he sent 60,000 American fighting men to Vietnam with no intentions of accomplishing anything? How many innocent civilians died during the Persian Gulf War of George Bush, Sr? A hundred thousand? Two hundred thousand? The "rulers of the darkness of this world" use war so that they can kill to get gain. If we don't learn anything else in the Book of Mormon we should learn that. Gadianton Robbers kill for money and power. And that is what war is all about, making money shedding the blood of others. Do you think the USA would be all worked up about the evil Hussein if it weren't for oil? Why are we not equally worked up about the genocide that has been going on in Africa for a generation? Could it be that we don't care if black people kill black people as long as they don't have any oil that we want to control? >Gadiantons have secret organizations of murder to get gain. Where is Bush' >club? Yes, I know you are suspicious of the CFR and other groups, but I've >yet to see conclusive evidence that they are for less liberty and more >civilian annihilation. Why must we have conclusive evidence to believe the scriptures? And how could we get this evidence even if it exists? Is our House and Senate willing to convene an investigation into criminal dealings at the highest levels in our nation? And if we don't investigate, how are we going to get evidence? Even when we have evidence we don't do a dang thing about it. We had the evidence with Nixon, yet we did not impeach him. We didn't prosecute him for the multiple felonies that he committed. We actually mourned his passing and flew our flag at half mast when he died, a flag he had desecrated far more than those hippies that sewed it onto the seat of their pants and burned it in the street. We had PROOF that Clinton committed the felonies of perjury and obstruction of justice, but our Senate acquitted him anyway, making them just as guilty as he was. You bemoan the lack of evidence. We could get that evidence if we were willing to do it. But we aren't. These Gadianton Robbers, who worship money more than God, know that we will do nothing as long as they let us in on the take. As long as we are fat and happy we aren't going to do anything about it. And they know it. They can do anything they want as long as we are not inconvenienced in the enjoyment of our pleasures. Well, that is pretty short sighted. Misbehavior has a way of coming back and biting. >If you make such a claim, please back it up. Otherwise, you are spouting >off things that are not right. I have spent the last nine years on these email lists backing it up with the scriptures and the writing of the seers. Only a seer can determine these things because they are hidden in darkness. President Benson was a seer for fifty years during which he was on the President's Cabinet for two full terms. And this is what he taught. Not because he was some kind of right-wing crackpot, but because he KNEW. Those saints who ignored him will pay a price just as those saints have paid a price for not following prophetic counsel in Missouri. A prophet cannot lead where the people will not follow. They weren't willing to live the Law of Consecration in Missouri as Joseph had asked them to do. And the saints in our more recent history refused to be mobilized by the alarms raised by President Benson. Same thing. Watch, and you will learn. Tell me, doesn't it seem a little curious that Al-Qaeda was able to pull off their attack on 9-11 even though there were many in our nation who were forewarned? We were caught with our pants down. But the purpose of government is to see that we are not caught with our pants down. Our government failed us. But guess what, there is no great outcry against those who were guilty of this negligence. I'll bet not one single FAA, FBI, CIA, or other government operative will lose his job or even be demoted for his negligence. Is that just a coincidence? No it is not. Those who pulled off this attack planned it that way. 19 men died. 15 of them were Saudis. There must have been others involved, but who? If we ever find out, which is doubtful, I'll bet that they have all died in one way or another. Whoever planned 9-11 planned a way to get away with it. They planned a way to do away with all witnesses that could incriminate them. 9-11 is going to remain as big a mystery as the assassination of JFK. Anyw
Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted
After careful consideration, Gary Smith wrote: >Or are you just reading that into such events? Were the Nephites wicked >for trying to destroy the Gadiantons? Or were they just not strong enough >to accomplish it? Perhaps the Nephites were more righteous when they >allowed the Gadiantons to grow in power among the Nephites? Let's not >misquote the BoM on these things. I haven't been quoting the Book of Mormon. Rather I have been trying to teach the principles that I have learned from searching it. The Gadianton Robbers were a domestic problem, not an invasion or attack by a foreign power. Al-Qaeda is a domestic problem, not the innocent people of Iraq. >The Gadiantons were a clear and present danger. The Nephites did all >within their power to stop them. Just because they were unable, does not >mean their efforts were wrong. Your are writing as if the Nephites were virtuous in their war against Gadianton Robbers. Nothing could be further from the truth. It was Nephite pride stemming from great abundance that created the atmosphere in which the Gadiantons could flourish. If they had not been wicked, the Gadiantons could never have gotten hold of the government in the first place. It is the same with us. The Book of Mormon teaches that there are Gadianton Robbers in every nation, but they only become powerful when the people become proud and worship their own wealth more than God. It is only when a nation becomes willing to kill for money. And that is exactly what we will be doing in Iraq if we fight them. We will be killing for money, in this case, Middle Eastern oil. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === "It may be, for instance, that nothing except the power of faith and the authority of the priesthood can save individuals and congregations from the atomic holocausts that surely shall be." --Bruce R. McConkie === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted
>As for your claim that Bush is a Gadianton, just where is your proof? There is no proof. The President is a descent man. I'm absolutely sure of it. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted
>We have no right to say evil things about a person, without strong >evidence. GWBush is not perfect by any stretch of the imagination. >However, he has not ever shown himself to be an evil man, which is what a >Gadianton is. I agree. And, when was the last time our beloved prophet went to the white house to shake hands with a Gadianton murderer? That would really shake my testimony if... Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted
Or are you just reading that into such events? Were the Nephites wicked for trying to destroy the Gadiantons? Or were they just not strong enough to accomplish it? Perhaps the Nephites were more righteous when they allowed the Gadiantons to grow in power among the Nephites? Let's not misquote the BoM on these things. The Gadiantons were a clear and present danger. The Nephites did all within their power to stop them. Just because they were unable, does not mean their efforts were wrong. As for your claim that Bush is a Gadianton, just where is your proof? Saddam is heavily engaged in terrorist activities, even paying off the families of suicide bombers. Where do you see Bush actively killing civilians? Gadiantons have secret organizations of murder to get gain. Where is Bush' club? Yes, I know you are suspicious of the CFR and other groups, but I've yet to see conclusive evidence that they are for less liberty and more civilian annihilation. If you make such a claim, please back it up. Otherwise, you are spouting off things that are not right. It's on the same level as those who claim that Pres Hinckley has denied the First Vision and other Restoration events/doctrines, because he has brushed them off in some of his interviews. Does anyone wonder why he gave such a testimony of the First Vision and of Joseph Smith during General Conference? It was to assure the members that he knows these things occurred. We have no right to say evil things about a person, without strong evidence. GWBush is not perfect by any stretch of the imagination. However, he has not ever shown himself to be an evil man, which is what a Gadianton is. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe JWR: The only time the Nephites pursued the Gadiantons beyond their own borders they were militarily defeated. National defense is justified. National offense is not. --JWR GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted
I for one would appreciate the research. I may come off sounding like an egghead, but I'm not the scriptorian half of you are. But I do have a suspicion I know why all the stories end the way they do, but I'll wait for the results of someone's research before I venture forth with my idea. Jon Spencer wrote: > John W. Redelfs wrote: > > The only time the Nephites pursued the Gadiantons beyond their own borders > > they were militarily defeated. National defense is justified. National > > offense is not. --JWR > > I think that this is an assumption on your part, the assumption being that > the mountains in which the Gadiantons were being pursued (rather > ineffectually, as I recall) belonged to the Nephites, and that they never > pursued them beyond their own borders (which I think is incorrect). > > One of us might actually search for this info some time. > > Jon -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland "The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark." --Michelangelo Buonarroti Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted
"ad hominem" is not out of place. You don't plan your foreign policy based on what a stinker some foreign head of government/state is. You'd have to invade Canada and Britain if that were the case Jon Spencer wrote: > "Ad hominem" is an odd thing to put in here, and it is put in incorrectly, I > might add. > > But it appears to me that you chose to let things go until they get out of > hand, assuring us that they will not. I chose to support the view that they > are already out of hand and will get much worse. > > Saddam's character has been clearly shown in both his personal (child > molestation), his internal (killing MILLIONS of innocent people, 150,000+ by > WOMM) and his external (Iran, Kuwait, US, others) activities. > > It's a judgment call. We have made different judgments. It is our > responsibility to handle things in the temporal world, to protect the > innocent, wherever they may be. > > You appear to focus on Saddam. I chose to focus on his millions of victims. > > We just have different points of view. Neither of us can predict which > course of action will have the most negative consequences, or the most > positive. However, from my perspective, the opportunities for a good > outcome are far greater if we chose to protect both ourselves and others. > The possibilities from this vantage point are (1) a freer Iraq, far fewer > people killed in the next 5 years, and (3) elimination of the very viable > threat to not only the US, but the entire world. > > Al Quaeda will do whatever it wants to do, regardless of what we do, unless > what we do is to (1) remove their state sponsors and (2) track them down. > (1) says that we must remove the Taliban from Afghanistan first [done], take > out Saddam next [in process], and then see what else must be done. > > You cannot expect to enjoy your freedoms, when there are others, quite well > motivated by Satan as well as by the natural man, who see YOU as both (1) a > threat to their plans to control people, and (2) a target. > > I think that there are many individual statements in this post that you > would concur with, as well as statements by me that you may think are > mischaracterizations of your position. I understand that you simply chose > to interpret the world in a different manner. > > The purpose of this post is to try to state from a high level what my > perspective is. > > Jon > > ----- Original Message - > From: "Marc A. Schindler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2002 2:23 PM > Subject: Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted > > First of all, I do not oppose the removal of Saddam Hussein from power -- > he's > every bit the tyrant that people say he is. What I oppose is a foreign > country, a > superpower who think they have a mandate to police the world, deciding whom > to > take out and who to leave in charge (if Hussein, why not al-Assad and > Mussharaf, > as I keep asking). > > Secondly, the comments about Bush were *in response* to your ad hominem > attack on > Saddam. Again, the point is, I'm sure what you say about Saddam is right. > But > that's not the point. It's what should be done about it that's the point. > > / > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland "The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark." --Michelangelo Buonarroti Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted
>It doesn't matter that President Bush is decent if he is beholden to >wealthy and powerful special interests. If others are dictating to him, he >could be a decent man and still cause great evil to come upon our nation. That's a much softer approach, John. I think you will get more mileage promoting your gospel hobby by taking this avenue than referring to our President as a murderous robber. ;-) BTW--I can't stop laughing over this thread. )(&)*^$&*^( :-) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted
I take it, then, that (1) you strongly believe that Bush is controlled by the rich folks, and (2) those of us who approve of his approach in many things are also controlled by the rich folks, or are at least stupid enough to be fooled. (2) is certainly the implication of your statement below. It would sound to me that you have been brainwashed by the Democrats, and that since they are saying what you believe to be true, then you should go right on down and register as one today! But I think I know your history better than that. Jon John W. Redelfs wrote: > It doesn't matter that President Bush is decent if he is beholden to > wealthy and powerful special interests. If others are dictating to him, he > could be a decent man and still cause great evil to come upon our nation. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted
After careful consideration, Marc A. Schindler wrote: >Funny, but that's what I believe, too. (Well, that he's of our race, >anyway, and >I think he's *trying* to be decent, he's just in over his head and is a >figurehead for more sinister forces [goshdarnit, I'm beginning to sound >more and >more like John]). The more blatant the "evidence" becomes, the harder it is to deny. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted
After careful consideration, Paul Osborne wrote: >I didn't say anything about the Democrats or anything about those who >voted for them. I simply implied that I smell something rotten in Denmark >if hundreds of thousands of LDS people pray for the Spirit's help in >electing a mass murderer for President. I don't buy it. I am convinced >that President Bush is a decent man. And with that, I wonder how many >times the Holy Ghost has born solid witness to faithful LDS voters that >George Bush is a descent man... It doesn't matter that President Bush is decent if he is beholden to wealthy and powerful special interests. If others are dictating to him, he could be a decent man and still cause great evil to come upon our nation. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === "The gospel, the kingdom of God, can prosper only in an atmosphere of freedom." --Ezra Taft Benson === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted
"Ad hominem" is an odd thing to put in here, and it is put in incorrectly, I might add. But it appears to me that you chose to let things go until they get out of hand, assuring us that they will not. I chose to support the view that they are already out of hand and will get much worse. Saddam's character has been clearly shown in both his personal (child molestation), his internal (killing MILLIONS of innocent people, 150,000+ by WOMM) and his external (Iran, Kuwait, US, others) activities. It's a judgment call. We have made different judgments. It is our responsibility to handle things in the temporal world, to protect the innocent, wherever they may be. You appear to focus on Saddam. I chose to focus on his millions of victims. We just have different points of view. Neither of us can predict which course of action will have the most negative consequences, or the most positive. However, from my perspective, the opportunities for a good outcome are far greater if we chose to protect both ourselves and others. The possibilities from this vantage point are (1) a freer Iraq, far fewer people killed in the next 5 years, and (3) elimination of the very viable threat to not only the US, but the entire world. Al Quaeda will do whatever it wants to do, regardless of what we do, unless what we do is to (1) remove their state sponsors and (2) track them down. (1) says that we must remove the Taliban from Afghanistan first [done], take out Saddam next [in process], and then see what else must be done. You cannot expect to enjoy your freedoms, when there are others, quite well motivated by Satan as well as by the natural man, who see YOU as both (1) a threat to their plans to control people, and (2) a target. I think that there are many individual statements in this post that you would concur with, as well as statements by me that you may think are mischaracterizations of your position. I understand that you simply chose to interpret the world in a different manner. The purpose of this post is to try to state from a high level what my perspective is. Jon - Original Message - From: "Marc A. Schindler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2002 2:23 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted First of all, I do not oppose the removal of Saddam Hussein from power -- he's every bit the tyrant that people say he is. What I oppose is a foreign country, a superpower who think they have a mandate to police the world, deciding whom to take out and who to leave in charge (if Hussein, why not al-Assad and Mussharaf, as I keep asking). Secondly, the comments about Bush were *in response* to your ad hominem attack on Saddam. Again, the point is, I'm sure what you say about Saddam is right. But that's not the point. It's what should be done about it that's the point. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted
John W. Redelfs wrote: > The only time the Nephites pursued the Gadiantons beyond their own borders > they were militarily defeated. National defense is justified. National > offense is not. --JWR I think that this is an assumption on your part, the assumption being that the mountains in which the Gadiantons were being pursued (rather ineffectually, as I recall) belonged to the Nephites, and that they never pursued them beyond their own borders (which I think is incorrect). One of us might actually search for this info some time. Jon / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted
Funny, but that's what I believe, too. (Well, that he's of our race, anyway, and I think he's *trying* to be decent, he's just in over his head and is a figurehead for more sinister forces [goshdarnit, I'm beginning to sound more and more like John]). Steven Montgomery wrote: > At 05:45 PM 10/13/2002, you wrote: > > > I cannot agree with this. I see no reason to suspect Bush as a mass > > > murderer. And if this is so; why must I suppose that hundreds of > > > thousands of conservative Latter-day Saints voted for him after careful > > > prayer and consideration as directed by the First Presidency. I'm sorry > > > John, but it doesn't add up in my book. If so, the Holy Ghost must be > > > giving bad advice to the people of our church. All is lost... > > > > > > > >>This is "spiritual extortion." To assume that *your* political decision > >has the > > >>backing of the HG implies that Democrats like President Faust, > >President Larsen > > >>et al, don't have the backing of the HG. I'm sure that's not what you > >meant to > > >>write. > > > > > > > >I didn't say anything about the Democrats or anything about those who > >voted for them. I simply implied that I smell something rotten in Denmark > >if hundreds of thousands of LDS people pray for the Spirit's help in > >electing a mass murderer for President. I don't buy it. I am convinced > >that President Bush is a descent man. And with that, I wonder how many > >times the Holy Ghost has born solid witness to faithful LDS voters that > >George Bush is a descent man... > > > >Paul O > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > I believe that GWB is a descent man--descended, like we all are, from Adam > . > > -- > Steven Montgomery > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > / > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland "The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark." --Michelangelo Buonarroti Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted
I understood what you wrote. I was merely pointing out the logical implication of what you wrote. Paul Osborne wrote: > > I cannot agree with this. I see no reason to suspect Bush as a mass > > murderer. And if this is so; why must I suppose that hundreds of > > thousands of conservative Latter-day Saints voted for him after careful > > prayer and consideration as directed by the First Presidency. I'm sorry > > John, but it doesn't add up in my book. If so, the Holy Ghost must be > > giving bad advice to the people of our church. All is lost... > > > > >>This is "spiritual extortion." To assume that *your* political decision > has the > >>backing of the HG implies that Democrats like President Faust, > President Larsen > >>et al, don't have the backing of the HG. I'm sure that's not what you > meant to > >>write. > > I didn't say anything about the Democrats or anything about those who > voted for them. I simply implied that I smell something rotten in Denmark > if hundreds of thousands of LDS people pray for the Spirit's help in > electing a mass murderer for President. I don't buy it. I am convinced > that President Bush is a descent man. And with that, I wonder how many > times the Holy Ghost has born solid witness to faithful LDS voters that > George Bush is a descent man... > > Paul O > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. > > / > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland "The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark." --Michelangelo Buonarroti Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted
At 05:59 PM 10/13/2002, you wrote: >At 05:45 PM 10/13/2002, you wrote: >> > I cannot agree with this. I see no reason to suspect Bush as a mass >> > murderer. And if this is so; why must I suppose that hundreds of >> > thousands of conservative Latter-day Saints voted for him after careful >> > prayer and consideration as directed by the First Presidency. I'm sorry >> > John, but it doesn't add up in my book. If so, the Holy Ghost must be >> > giving bad advice to the people of our church. All is lost... >> > >> >> >>This is "spiritual extortion." To assume that *your* political decision >>has the >> >>backing of the HG implies that Democrats like President Faust, >>President Larsen >> >>et al, don't have the backing of the HG. I'm sure that's not what you >>meant to >> >>write. >> >> >> >>I didn't say anything about the Democrats or anything about those who >>voted for them. I simply implied that I smell something rotten in Denmark >>if hundreds of thousands of LDS people pray for the Spirit's help in >>electing a mass murderer for President. I don't buy it. I am convinced >>that President Bush is a descent man. And with that, I wonder how many >>times the Holy Ghost has born solid witness to faithful LDS voters that >>George Bush is a descent man... >> >>Paul O >>[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >I believe that GWB is a descent man--descended, like we all are, from Adam >. But then again, I used to have a neighbor that had a de-scented skunk--maybe GWB has been de-scented. I doubt that however, as something about GWB stinks to high heaven. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted
At 05:45 PM 10/13/2002, you wrote: > > I cannot agree with this. I see no reason to suspect Bush as a mass > > murderer. And if this is so; why must I suppose that hundreds of > > thousands of conservative Latter-day Saints voted for him after careful > > prayer and consideration as directed by the First Presidency. I'm sorry > > John, but it doesn't add up in my book. If so, the Holy Ghost must be > > giving bad advice to the people of our church. All is lost... > > > > >>This is "spiritual extortion." To assume that *your* political decision >has the > >>backing of the HG implies that Democrats like President Faust, >President Larsen > >>et al, don't have the backing of the HG. I'm sure that's not what you >meant to > >>write. > > > >I didn't say anything about the Democrats or anything about those who >voted for them. I simply implied that I smell something rotten in Denmark >if hundreds of thousands of LDS people pray for the Spirit's help in >electing a mass murderer for President. I don't buy it. I am convinced >that President Bush is a descent man. And with that, I wonder how many >times the Holy Ghost has born solid witness to faithful LDS voters that >George Bush is a descent man... > >Paul O >[EMAIL PROTECTED] I believe that GWB is a descent man--descended, like we all are, from Adam . -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted
> I think Bush is a descent guy but I didn't vote for him. I didn't even > vote. > >>That's even worse, imo. It's throwing your freedom back in the faces of your >>founding fathers. I don't care. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted
> I cannot agree with this. I see no reason to suspect Bush as a mass > murderer. And if this is so; why must I suppose that hundreds of > thousands of conservative Latter-day Saints voted for him after careful > prayer and consideration as directed by the First Presidency. I'm sorry > John, but it doesn't add up in my book. If so, the Holy Ghost must be > giving bad advice to the people of our church. All is lost... > >>This is "spiritual extortion." To assume that *your* political decision has the >>backing of the HG implies that Democrats like President Faust, President Larsen >>et al, don't have the backing of the HG. I'm sure that's not what you meant to >>write. I didn't say anything about the Democrats or anything about those who voted for them. I simply implied that I smell something rotten in Denmark if hundreds of thousands of LDS people pray for the Spirit's help in electing a mass murderer for President. I don't buy it. I am convinced that President Bush is a descent man. And with that, I wonder how many times the Holy Ghost has born solid witness to faithful LDS voters that George Bush is a descent man... Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted
Paul Osborne wrote: > >I agree that Saddam is a Gadianton. He is a small one, and Bush is a > big > >one. > > Gadianton? > > I cannot agree with this. I see no reason to suspect Bush as a mass > murderer. And if this is so; why must I suppose that hundreds of > thousands of conservative Latter-day Saints voted for him after careful > prayer and consideration as directed by the First Presidency. I'm sorry > John, but it doesn't add up in my book. If so, the Holy Ghost must be > giving bad advice to the people of our church. All is lost... > This is "spiritual extortion." To assume that *your* political decision has the backing of the HG implies that Democrats like President Faust, President Larsen et al, don't have the backing of the HG. I'm sure that's not what you meant to write. > > I think Bush is a descent guy but I didn't vote for him. I didn't even > vote. > That's even worse, imo. It's throwing your freedom back in the faces of your founding fathers. > > Paul O > [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland "The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark." --Michelangelo Buonarroti Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted
>I agree that Saddam is a Gadianton. He is a small one, and Bush is a big >one. Gadianton? I cannot agree with this. I see no reason to suspect Bush as a mass murderer. And if this is so; why must I suppose that hundreds of thousands of conservative Latter-day Saints voted for him after careful prayer and consideration as directed by the First Presidency. I'm sorry John, but it doesn't add up in my book. If so, the Holy Ghost must be giving bad advice to the people of our church. All is lost... I think Bush is a descent guy but I didn't vote for him. I didn't even vote. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted
First of all, I do not oppose the removal of Saddam Hussein from power -- he's every bit the tyrant that people say he is. What I oppose is a foreign country, a superpower who think they have a mandate to police the world, deciding whom to take out and who to leave in charge (if Hussein, why not al-Assad and Mussharaf, as I keep asking). Secondly, the comments about Bush were *in response* to your ad hominem attack on Saddam. Again, the point is, I'm sure what you say about Saddam is right. But that's not the point. It's what should be done about it that's the point. Jon Spencer wrote: > I find it interesting that those who oppose taking out Saddam also feel > offended when the truth is spoken about him, but feel no restraint when > impugning with unbridled passion those with whom they disagree (e.g.,. > President Bush). > > Please feel free to express these same sentiments to the parents of the > children Saddam has abused. And note that I did give these thoughts careful > consideration. > > I can understand the stand you are taking with regard to dealing with Iraq. > What I do not understand is why you think that Saddam's ruthless treatment > of the people of Iraq, our brothers and sisters, should be tolerated, and > why his threat to us and the rest of the world should be ignored. You have I have explained more than half a dozen times that there are greater threats to western security in the region. NOT ONCE have I read a response to my question about Pakistan. The onus is on you to defend your government's actions, not up to me to defend the renunciation of war in general, and specifically a militaristic approach to the problem. That defends itself -- "MYOB". > > often railed against the Gadiantons in our midst. Well, can't you see that > Saddam is one of them? He's not "in our midst." Let's worry about the GR's in our midst. Let's start with those who make and promote the use of armaments, for starters. > The Nephites constantly pursued the Gadiantons - > they actively searched for them and tried to destroy them. Were they wrong > to do this? Should they have just said "They didn't get MY daughter, so > it's none of my business!"? > They were only in the righty AFTER they were directly attacked, and attacked in defence of their liberties, property and lives. You are not in that position. We (America as a whole) are in the position of Assyria, having broken the covenant of Zion as recorded in Ether. Again, I haven't read a SINGLE response to that, although both John and I have pointed this out on numerous occasions. Are we speaking past each other, I wonder? > > Do you understand my position? OK, so you feel that Saddam is not a > Gadianton, but that Bush and his controlling CFR are. John and I differ in the details of who the GR's are. I think worrying about the CFR is like worrying about the colour of the paint on the Titanic, so I do not take quite his approach on this. But I find it very interesting that some of the most conservative amongst us and some of the most so-called liberal amongst us can agree that we *do* have Gadianton Robbers amongst us, and that the proposed war against Iraq is a feint, a magician's trick, to divert our attention away from what is happening to our liberties from Argentina and Colombia to the USA and Canada. > It doesn't make sense > to me, but you have the right to your own thoughts. But if, as you say, the > Gospel can only prosper under freedom, it seems that we must constantly try > to defeat the Gadiantons. (Here - your response: "Saying Saddam is a > Gadianton doesn't make him one" to which I respond "No, that fact that he IS > one makes him one." There, one round of emails taken care of.) > We will not establish freedom by overthrowing Saddam Hussein. Did I post the response from Dan Peterson here, a response to someone on another list who had said that the Arabs are not interested in the Gospel? The very day he responded to me he and his wife were having dinner with the Jordanian ambassador, a member of the Q12, a 70, and their wives. The work is going forward, but God works through Zion, not through Assyria. We need to get our nations back to Zion and away from Assyria/Babylon. > > Jon > > John W. Redelfs wrote: > > > After careful consideration, Jon Spencer wrote: > > >Being that Saddam regularly has sex with young girls, I think that we can > > >safely assume that he does not take his religion to heart. > > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland "The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark." --Michelangelo Buonarroti Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. /
Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted
After careful consideration, Jon Spencer wrote: >Do you understand my position? OK, so you feel that Saddam is not a >Gadianton, but that Bush and his controlling CFR are. It doesn't make >sense to me, but you have the right to your own thoughts. But if, as you >say, the Gospel can only prosper under freedom, it seems that we must >constantly try to defeat the Gadiantons. (Here - your response: "Saying >Saddam is a Gadianton doesn't make him one" to which I respond "No, that >fact that he IS >one makes him one." There, one round of emails taken care of.) I agree that Saddam is a Gadianton. He is a small one, and Bush is a big one. Why should I sacrifice my only son to help one Gadianton stomp on another one? If we eradicate Saddam, will we be better off? Will anybody? There are a hundred Saddams standing in line to replace every one that falls. And we can't kill them all. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] "It is an eternal principle that has existed with God from all Eternity that that man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly that that man is in the high road to apostacy" (Ehat & Cook, WORDS OF JOSEPH SMITH, p. 413) All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted
After careful consideration, Jon Spencer wrote: >You have often railed against the Gadiantons in our midst. Well, can't >you see that >Saddam is one of them? The Nephites constantly pursued the Gadiantons - >they actively searched for them and tried to destroy them. Were they >wrong to do this? Should they have just said "They didn't get MY >daughter, so it's none of my business!"? The only time the Nephites pursued the Gadiantons beyond their own borders they were militarily defeated. National defense is justified. National offense is not. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Hindsight being what it is; if the circumstances of September 11th were known on >September 9th and actions were taken against Afganistan and the terrorists on >September 10th; I suspect alot of you would be yelling that this was a war of >aggression and not self-defense. > That doesn't make much sense, given that the offenders were *U.S.* residents of *Saudi* background. What good would attacking Afghanistan have done at the time? > > Further, I suspect as President Bush said a few days ago, it will take a mushroom >cloud over some U.S. city to take action against Sadam. > > I guess an actual attack on the U.S. changes doves into hawks; or does it. Once a >dove always a dove. > Is that a question or a statement? -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland "The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark." --Michelangelo Buonarroti Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted
Hindsight being what it is; if the circumstances of September 11th were known on September 9th and actions were taken against Afganistan and the terrorists on September 10th; I suspect alot of you would be yelling that this was a war of aggression and not self-defense. Further, I suspect as President Bush said a few days ago, it will take a mushroom cloud over some U.S. city to take action against Sadam. I guess an actual attack on the U.S. changes doves into hawks; or does it. Once a dove always a dove. --- "Marc A. Schindler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >You have put the in the wrong place. Neither of the sources you = >refer >to used the word "peacenik". The Church statement *also* clarifies that Eld= >er >Nelson condemned wars of aggression, and I think that's where the issue her= >e is: >would an attack on Iraq constitute a war of aggression, or a defensive war?= > Elder >Nelson didn't say. It's my personal opinion that it would be a war of aggre= >ssion. > >Gary Smith wrote: > >> >From today's WSJ Best of the Web comes the Church's official statement >> saying that peaceniks are misinterpreting Elder Nelson's General >> Conference talk: >> >> >> Meanwhile, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints >> http://www.lds.org/media2/letters/0,10599,1592-1,00.html complains that >> "some news outlets have misinterpreted a recent general conference >> address by Elder Russell M. Nelson." Nelson "pointed to the example and >> teachings of the Savior as 'the pathway to peace on earth and good will >> among men,' " the church statement says. According to Salt Lake City's >> Deseret News http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,410017992,00.html , >> "several news organizations took statements from the talk and cast them >> in the context of the current national debate on the issue" of war in >> Iraq--presumably by peacenik scribes who wish the Mormons were on their >> side. >> >> >> K'aya K'ama, >> Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www >> .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html >> "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." - >> Johann Wolfgang von Goethe >> >> >> >> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! >> >> Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! >> >> Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: >> >> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. >> >> /= > >> /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// >> /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// >> /= > >> > >-- >Marc A. Schindler >Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland > >"The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and >falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark." >--Michelangelo Buonarroti > >Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the auth= >or >solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author=92s emp= >loyer, >nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. > >///= >// >/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// >/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// >///= >// > >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D _ Washington DC's Largest FREE Email service. ---> http://www.DCemail.com ---> A Washington Online Community Member ---> http://www.DCpages.com _ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get [EMAIL PROTECTED] w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted
Well put. BTW, is there anyone here on the list who DID think Elder Nelson was making an official statement about Iraq? Or was there someone who felt that given that there's not even an imminent danger from Iraq, no one can justify a war of aggression against Iraq on religious grounds? Paul Osborne wrote: > Regarding the current political environment: > > At present, the apostles of Mormonism have no business making public > announcements about whether a specific war should be fought or not. Apart > from revelation and authorization from God, it simply is not the business > of the church to assume a responsibility they are not qualified to > undertake. The apostles are not privy to Top Secret intelligence and > can't necessarily determine whether a war is just or not. > > Now--if the Lord sees fit to have a revelation declared, seeing that God > knows everything, and it is the Lord's will to officially renounce a war > fought by the US government; that is another story. But, in such a case > there won't be any arguing from the church body whether the prophet said > yes or no. > > There is a general separation between church and state and that means the > state does not tell the church what to do and the church does not tell > the state what to do. The church doesn't get involved in politics. Church > buildings (including the Conference Center) are not to be used for making > public statements about the government's war making decisions. Elder > Nelson was not breaking that policy. He was simply proclaiming peace at > the pulpit. That is what prophets are suppose to do, but he was not > condemning a war with Iraq and it must NOT be construed as such! Only the > President of the Church can alter church policy on the spot and President > Hinkley remains dead silent on the Iraq issue. > > Paul O > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. > > / > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland "The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark." --Michelangelo Buonarroti Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted
Regarding the current political environment: At present, the apostles of Mormonism have no business making public announcements about whether a specific war should be fought or not. Apart from revelation and authorization from God, it simply is not the business of the church to assume a responsibility they are not qualified to undertake. The apostles are not privy to Top Secret intelligence and can't necessarily determine whether a war is just or not. Now--if the Lord sees fit to have a revelation declared, seeing that God knows everything, and it is the Lord's will to officially renounce a war fought by the US government; that is another story. But, in such a case there won't be any arguing from the church body whether the prophet said yes or no. There is a general separation between church and state and that means the state does not tell the church what to do and the church does not tell the state what to do. The church doesn't get involved in politics. Church buildings (including the Conference Center) are not to be used for making public statements about the government's war making decisions. Elder Nelson was not breaking that policy. He was simply proclaiming peace at the pulpit. That is what prophets are suppose to do, but he was not condemning a war with Iraq and it must NOT be construed as such! Only the President of the Church can alter church policy on the spot and President Hinkley remains dead silent on the Iraq issue. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted
You have put the in the wrong place. Neither of the sources you refer to used the word "peacenik". The Church statement *also* clarifies that Elder Nelson condemned wars of aggression, and I think that's where the issue here is: would an attack on Iraq constitute a war of aggression, or a defensive war? Elder Nelson didn't say. It's my personal opinion that it would be a war of aggression. Gary Smith wrote: > >From today's WSJ Best of the Web comes the Church's official statement > saying that peaceniks are misinterpreting Elder Nelson's General > Conference talk: > > > Meanwhile, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints > http://www.lds.org/media2/letters/0,10599,1592-1,00.html complains that > "some news outlets have misinterpreted a recent general conference > address by Elder Russell M. Nelson." Nelson "pointed to the example and > teachings of the Savior as 'the pathway to peace on earth and good will > among men,' " the church statement says. According to Salt Lake City's > Deseret News http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,410017992,00.html , > "several news organizations took statements from the talk and cast them > in the context of the current national debate on the issue" of war in > Iraq--presumably by peacenik scribes who wish the Mormons were on their > side. > > > K'aya K'ama, > Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www > .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html > "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." - > Johann Wolfgang von Goethe > > > > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. > > / > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland "The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark." --Michelangelo Buonarroti Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
[ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted
>From today's WSJ Best of the Web comes the Church's official statement saying that peaceniks are misinterpreting Elder Nelson's General Conference talk: Meanwhile, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints http://www.lds.org/media2/letters/0,10599,1592-1,00.html complains that "some news outlets have misinterpreted a recent general conference address by Elder Russell M. Nelson." Nelson "pointed to the example and teachings of the Savior as 'the pathway to peace on earth and good will among men,' " the church statement says. According to Salt Lake City's Deseret News http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,410017992,00.html , "several news organizations took statements from the talk and cast them in the context of the current national debate on the issue" of war in Iraq--presumably by peacenik scribes who wish the Mormons were on their side. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
