Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp - gimpshop - newbie
On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 22:27:49 -0500, Eric P [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm all into usability as I use a high ratio of keyboard shortcuts vs. mouse in GIMP. Can you elaborate on some of the new usability enhancements? I'm all ears. Well, it's difficult to single out a specific feature. I suggest that you read the recent changes summarized in: http://developer.gimp.org/NEWS And maybe more importantly, that you look at the work done by Kamila and Peter for improving the user interface: http://gui.gimp.org/ Some of these improvements have already integrated in the current version in SVN but others are still pending. For example, have a look at: http://gui.gimp.org/index.php/Selection_%2B_crop_tool_specification You will also find many little things that have been improved to guide the user along the way, such as tooltips for all menu items (quick description of what each filter does) or status bar messages that help you to remember how to use each tool and what to do with Ctrl/Alt/Shift. -Raphaël ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp - gimpshop - newbie
Perhaps I'm in danger of starting an argument here but some of your points surprise me a little. Manish Singh wrote: Maybe the creator of GimpShop should have respected the GIMP community instead of rejecting it. He did not consult anyone on any of the GIMP lists at all as to proper approaches, or even showed any interest in actually making useful contributions. Sorry, but surely the whole point of the free software movement is that it quite deliberately empowers users to do all of the things you've just objected to. If you're uncomfortable with people taking these liberties then maybe you should consider releasing your code under a proprietary licence. And who says GimpShop is not a useful contribution? The contribution to the Gimp project may be null but to the free software community it clearly fills a niche. Since GimpShop rejects the GIMP community, we respect that decision and do not support it here. If you have issues with this, take it up with the people who do GimpShop. They can't reject the community yet expect simultaneously expect it to provide support. Well actually, maybe they can because at least one member of this list provided an answer that the OP found helpful. And, to be honest, if it had been left at that we'd have 3 replies in this thread instead of 30. --- Scanned by M+ Guardian Messaging Firewall --- ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp - gimpshop - newbie
On Wed, Jul 11, 2007 at 08:24:36PM +0100, David Marrs wrote: Perhaps I'm in danger of starting an argument here but some of your points surprise me a little. Manish Singh wrote: Maybe the creator of GimpShop should have respected the GIMP community instead of rejecting it. He did not consult anyone on any of the GIMP lists at all as to proper approaches, or even showed any interest in actually making useful contributions. Sorry, but surely the whole point of the free software movement is that it quite deliberately empowers users to do all of the things you've just objected to. If you're uncomfortable with people taking these liberties then maybe you should consider releasing your code under a proprietary licence. And who says GimpShop is not a useful contribution? The contribution to the Gimp project may be null but to the free software community it clearly fills a niche. Oh, they can totally take the code and do whatever the GPL allows, that's fine. The GPL allows forks, but doesn't require the organization that was forked from to provide support to the fork. Red Hat has no obligation to provide support for CentOS people either. Consequently, the CentOS people actually maintain their own mailing lists and bug tracker, etc., so CentOS actually provides their users proper service. Since GimpShop rejects the GIMP community, we respect that decision and do not support it here. If you have issues with this, take it up with the people who do GimpShop. They can't reject the community yet expect simultaneously expect it to provide support. Well actually, maybe they can because at least one member of this list provided an answer that the OP found helpful. And, to be honest, if it had been left at that we'd have 3 replies in this thread instead of 30. Numerous people have complained that GimpShop posts are just clutter here, and it *does* cause confusion. It also clutters the bug tracker, since the GimpShop guy doesn't actually upgrade the code in timely manner. -Yosh ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp - gimpshop - newbie
a clumsy gui that is not at all easy to use (especially for those trained in photoshop) and which does not compare favourably with standards set by photoshop. I personally don't mind the UI... It is simply a matter of learning how to use it. I have never used PS, myself, but I suspect I would find that making a transition from Gimp to PS to be just as annoying from a UI standpoint. Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. http://sims.yahoo.com/ ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp - gimpshop - newbie
As I wrote in my previous message, the GIMP developers are not opposed to some of the ideas included in Gimpshop, if only they were implemented in a correct way. The developers are open to suggestions and are looking at alternative solutions whenever possible. Just check the recent usability enhancements in SVN if you are not convinced about that. Raphaël, I'm all into usability as I use a high ratio of keyboard shortcuts vs. mouse in GIMP. Can you elaborate on some of the new usability enhancements? I'm all ears. For reference, I'm currently running 2.3.14 (which I compiled with default compile settings). Thanks! Eric P. ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp - gimpshop - newbie
Hi list, answering this kind of questions and explainig why exactly we can not support GimpShop is a waste of time and done again and again and again... ... This clearly is a F.A.Q, which should we be able to answer by politely providing a link to an FAQ entry on gimp.org. This could save us lots of time which could be much better spend in further GIMP developement. So how about we put together the top ten arguments to the ten questions that is the most time wasted on the list(s)? This way we could shorten the discussions about Why the GimpShop is not GIMP, What we think about the Single Window Interface, Why GIMP is proud of its name and so on... Greetings, lexA ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp - gimpshop - newbie
On Monday 09 July 2007 00:11:09 Axel Wernicke wrote: Hi list, answering this kind of questions and explainig why exactly we can not support GimpShop is a waste of time and done again and again and again... ... This clearly is a F.A.Q, which should we be able to answer by politely providing a link to an FAQ entry on gimp.org. This could save us lots of time which could be much better spend in further GIMP developement. So how about we put together the top ten arguments to the ten questions that is the most time wasted on the list(s)? This way we could shorten the discussions about Why the GimpShop is not GIMP, What we think about the Single Window Interface, Why GIMP is proud of its name and so on... It seems to me there are two issues which seem to be confused and rolled into one seeminly illogical construct. 1. Whether some contributors to this list should take it upon themselves to try and stop other contributors, who either wish to discuss gimpshop issues from doing so. 2. Whether gimpshop should be declared as being officially supported by the list owners. On the first point my reaction to those adopting an authoritarian position is come on guys loosen up. It gives the impression that a few people with an axe to grind want to freeze out gimpshop rather than encouraging any extensions of gimp, of which gimpshop is one, to mature. A failure to encourage imaginative inititiatives and development discourages expanision of a vigourous development community. IMHO what gimp needs, for its future growth, is much more energetic development community capable of bringing gimp to the point where it supports current technological requirements and standards. When one considers hao far behind the curve gimp is in supporting current needs and standards, (no 16 bit per channel support, flaky printing, no built in support for camera raw files, a clumsy gui that is not at all easy to use (especially for those trained in photoshop) and which does not compare favourably with standards set by photoshop. In such circumstances discouraging gimpshop developers and users seems to be irrational, dictatorial and counterproductive. 2. Whether to declare gimpshop as being officially supported is quite another matter. IMHO no user of this list is entitled to expect support even for the basic gimp. So my conclusion is to encourage negative thinklers to just back off. If anyone does want to discuss gimpshop issues and others care to join in (and I have evidence that they do) then those who do not want to do so would make a vaulable contribution to gimp by remaining silent. Lets work together to make the community larger and therefore stronger. Gimp needs to mature. It suffers from feature starvation in many crucial areas (one of which gimpshop has begun to solve) and anyone willing to work on or test such extensions should not IMHO be discouraged. my two pennorth David Southwell ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp - gimpshop - newbie
On Sunday 08 July 2007 14:37:01 Manish Singh wrote: On Sun, Jul 08, 2007 at 02:42:22PM -0700, David Southwell wrote: I rather gather there are those who disparage gimpshop and wish it to fail and those who wish it to succeed but are afraid of offending some members of the former group. Maybe gimp could benefit from a more catholic and generous approach being espoused by everyone. Maybe the creator of GimpShop should have respected the GIMP community instead of rejecting it. He did not consult anyone on any of the GIMP lists at all as to proper approaches, or even showed any interest in actually making useful contributions. Since GimpShop rejects the GIMP community, we respect that decision and do not support it here. If you have issues with this, take it up with the people who do GimpShop. They can't reject the community yet expect simultaneously expect it to provide support. Expectation is one thing. IMHO this response sounds like short term thinking maintained by by malevolent thinking. In the long term gimp needs an interface that will attract inductry standard users. It does noit have one. An appropriate response by this list is to encourage gimpshop back into the fold BECAUSE it has something valuable to contribute. Anything less is biting off ones nose to spite one's face. While your attitude may be understandable in the circumstances surely you must see that it does not make other feel this is a friendly, welcoming and thoughful community driven by a determination to act in the long term interests of users. IMHO it would be better to think of long term benefit rather rely on emotianally driven anger. That does not mean provide official or expected support. Just stop spitting or discouraging legitimate dialogue. David Southwell ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp - gimpshop - newbie
David Southwell ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: On the first point my reaction to those adopting an authoritarian position is come on guys loosen up. It gives the impression that a few people with an axe to grind want to freeze out gimpshop rather than encouraging any extensions of gimp, of which gimpshop is one, to mature. To be frank, we - as the main Gimp developers - have been insulted by the gimpshop developer(s?) by them just taking our code, messing with it and just *no* communication. Additionally - as outlined earlier - the technical solutions used by Gimpshop are bad and hackish. E.g. Changing the strings to be more Photoshop-like immediately kills any of the dozends of translations we have available. Every Gimpshop Mail on this list annoys me, because of this abuse of gimp. This is the reason why we are touchy and not willing to loosen up. Please go ahead and create a mailinglist for gimpshop. This is not the place for it. Bye, Simon -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://simon.budig.de/ ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp - gimpshop - newbie
On Mon, 9 Jul 2007 02:11:09 -0700 David Southwell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It seems to me there are two issues which seem to be confused and rolled into one seeminly illogical construct. 1. Whether some contributors to this list should take it upon themselves to try and stop other contributors, who either wish to discuss gimpshop issues from doing so. 2. Whether gimpshop should be declared as being officially supported by the list owners. On the first point my reaction to those adopting an authoritarian position is come on guys loosen up. It gives the impression that a few people with an axe to grind want to freeze out gimpshop rather than encouraging any extensions of gimp, of which gimpshop is one, to mature. This list is hosted by the GIMP project. If you want to discuss another project that openly rejected GIMP and refused to listen to the team's advices on how to properly implement Gimpshop to benefit from bugfixes and new releases, you can do so by finding another list or creating one yourself. You can't ask the GIMP project to not moderate the mailing list they host. Noone forces you to use this list if you dislike the way it is moderated. Karine ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp - gimpshop - newbie
On Monday 09 July 2007 02:05:43 Karine Delvare wrote: On Mon, 9 Jul 2007 02:11:09 -0700 David Southwell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It seems to me there are two issues which seem to be confused and rolled into one seeminly illogical construct. 1. Whether some contributors to this list should take it upon themselves to try and stop other contributors, who either wish to discuss gimpshop issues from doing so. 2. Whether gimpshop should be declared as being officially supported by the list owners. On the first point my reaction to those adopting an authoritarian position is come on guys loosen up. It gives the impression that a few people with an axe to grind want to freeze out gimpshop rather than encouraging any extensions of gimp, of which gimpshop is one, to mature. This list is hosted by the GIMP project. If you want to discuss another project that openly rejected GIMP and refused to listen to the team's advices on how to properly implement Gimpshop to benefit from bugfixes and new releases, you can do so by finding another list or creating one yourself. You can't ask the GIMP project to not moderate the mailing list they host. Noone forces you to use this list if you dislike the way it is moderated. Who has asked anyone NOT to moderate?? Who benefits from such negativity? Noone -- it has certainly given me an impression of mean spritedness by a few and the practical experience of private generosity many. In fact I have received more private helpful emails from list users than there have been postings to the list. This seems to indicate that the authoritarian approach of a few is not really supported by the many. Who benefits from just sitting back if you do not want to contribute? Everyone. People who are not really happy about gimpshop do waste time trying to wag authoritarian fingers at those that do. A releaxed attitude makes everyone, except those who need to control others, happier. The community seems more welcoming and, who knows, either the attitude of gimpshop people may change or someone else might be encouraged to develop something like gimpshop in a more compatible way. Gimp desperately needs something like gimpshop. IMHO it is time to let go of anger and act in a mature and constructive way. David Southwell Does the list benefit from people wagging their finger and saying Who loses by j ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp - gimpshop - newbie
On Monday 09 July 2007 02:06:53 Simon Budig wrote: David Southwell ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: On the first point my reaction to those adopting an authoritarian position is come on guys loosen up. It gives the impression that a few people with an axe to grind want to freeze out gimpshop rather than encouraging any extensions of gimp, of which gimpshop is one, to mature. To be frank, we - as the main Gimp developers - have been insulted by the gimpshop developer(s?) by them just taking our code, messing with it and just *no* communication. Additionally - as outlined earlier - the technical solutions used by Gimpshop are bad and hackish. E.g. Changing the strings to be more Photoshop-like immediately kills any of the dozends of translations we have available. Every Gimpshop Mail on this list annoys me, because of this abuse of gimp. This is the reason why we are touchy and not willing to loosen up. Please go ahead and create a mailinglist for gimpshop. This is not the place for it. Hold on to your anger if you must. But please do not inflict it on others or lose sight of longer term benefits and strategies ito the long term benefit of gimp. I hear your frustration and understand it. Can you noit see that the way you are responding to that friustration is counter-productive? Can you not see the anger and emotion is driving decision making rather than thoughtful long term strategies. am not saying this to create dissension but becasue I am genuinely concerned that the touchyness you acknowledge is leading to decisions that will harm rather than benefit gimp. Can you not see that anger and touchiness provides the energy that leads to schism and forks. Can you not see that the touchyness, anger and authoritarianism makes the whole project less attractive to potential developers. After all do you want to attract the type of developers who would want to to be involved in a community driven by such emotions? I suggest you treat gimpshop as an intermediate hack. Get the best out of it you can until someone is encouraged to dvevelop something more sophisticated. Leave those who discuss it on the list alone. Let a community build up who want something better and are willing to do it in the giimp way. Take a long term view and please let go of that touchyness and anger - it will harm everyone who has it and the project will be infected by it. David Southwell ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp - gimpshop - newbie
On Sunday 08 July 2007 14:37:01 Manish Singh wrote: On Sun, Jul 08, 2007 at 02:42:22PM -0700, David Southwell wrote: I rather gather there are those who disparage gimpshop and wish it to fail and those who wish it to succeed but are afraid of offending some members of the former group. Maybe gimp could benefit from a more catholic and generous approach being espoused by everyone. Maybe the creator of GimpShop should have respected the GIMP community instead of rejecting it. He did not consult anyone on any of the GIMP lists at all as to proper approaches, or even showed any interest in actually making useful contributions. You are reacting on a person centred rather than a project centred basis. It may be personally satisfying to you to believe you are punishing the gimpshop creator because you do not approve of what he did or how he did it. In fact you are only punishing those who might be drawn to use or contribute to gimp because gimpshop exists.IMHO it would be bnetter to let go of the negativity and explore long term positivity. Build up a community that wants something better but uses gimpshop as a temporary hack. Learn from gimpshop what is needed and then draw development energy from the community to develop something better. My plea is for you guys to stop using your guts to think and let your brains provide sound and constructive strategies for the long term benefit of gimp. David Southwell ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp - gimpshop - newbie
David Southwell ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: I suggest you treat gimpshop as an intermediate hack. Get the best out of it you can until someone is encouraged to dvevelop something more sophisticated. That simply is impossible, since the solutions of Gimpshop are no solutions. I tried to explain that already, but you apparently do not understand the impact of changing strings in the sourcecode. The hacks of Gimpshop simply cannot be applied to the gimp, they are technically too bad. Sorry for the harsh words, but this is reality. And in case you missed it, we are in a very intense process of looking at the gimp user interface and improving it. People comparing the current 2.3 development version with 2.2 tend to like the changes a lot. I prefer this way over just emulating parts of the Photoshop interface. Do you accept this as a not-blinded-by-emotion answer? Bye, Simon -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://simon.budig.de/ ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp - gimpshop - newbie
David Southwell ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: IMHO it is time to let go of anger and act in a mature and constructive way. Ok, lets just open up this list and make it a gimpshop list as well. And a Photoshop list. And a Paintshop Pro list. And a Krita list. They all offer something that gimp urgently needs, hence it can be discussed here. The usefulness of this list would go towards zero, but whatever. This obviously benefits the greater goal of giving gimp what it apparently needs. /irony To make my point clear: Gimpshop has changed the user interface of the gimp in a more-or-less drastical manner. Advice given for Gimpshop cannot be applied to Gimp and vice versa. It is a different project, and the developers of Gimpshop obviously have no interest in playing nice with us Gimp developers. Please discuss that stuff elsewhere. This is not the place since advice given on Gimpshop will confuse Gimp users and vice versa. Go, create a gimpshop mailinglist - it is not as if ressources for mailinglists are hard to get on the net. Bye, Simon -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://simon.budig.de/ ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp - gimpshop - newbie
On Mon, 9 Jul 2007 12:06:22 +0200, Simon Budig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: David Southwell ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: I suggest you treat gimpshop as an intermediate hack. Get the best out of it you can until someone is encouraged to dvevelop something more sophisticated. That simply is impossible, since the solutions of Gimpshop are no solutions. I tried to explain that already, but you apparently do not understand the impact of changing strings in the sourcecode. The hacks of Gimpshop simply cannot be applied to the gimp, they are technically too bad. Sorry for the harsh words, but this is reality. Just to clarify a bit... The GIMP developers are not opposed to some of the ideas included in Gimpshop, but are opposed to the way they are implemented. Some users would like an interface that is similar to Photoshop in the terms that it uses and the menus that it offers. That's fine. Some users prefer an interface in which all windows (images, tools, etc.) are attached to a main window. That's also fine. If these options are implemented correctly, they will be included in a future version of GIMP and will be supported. But as several developers have already pointed out, Gimpshop did it wrong both from a technical perspective and from a social perspective. Instead of using the existing infrastructure for replacing/translating strings and for customizing menus, Gimpshop modifies the source code directly and makes it very difficult to share code with the standard GIMP (every upgrade requires a code re-write). And instead of discussing the best solutions and the best way to proceed together with the GIMP developers, the author of Gimpshop refused to consider the technical advice and decided to maintain a fork instead of an add-on. Gimpshop is different from GIMP because it is a fork of an older version, it has some bugs that GIMP doesn't have, its menus are different, etc. It makes sense to have a separate mailing list for discussing issues specific to that fork, in order to avoid confusing GIMP users with advice that relates to a different program. -Raphaël ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp - gimpshop - newbie
lots of snip Build up a community that wants something better but uses gimpshop as a temporary hack. Learn from gimpshop what is needed and then draw development energy from the community to develop something better. My plea is for you guys to stop using your guts to think and let your brains provide sound and constructive strategies for the long term benefit of gimp. I have been following this discussion and I think I can understand both points of view, to some extent. I have never heard of gimpshop and I read this list to learn about and to try to understand Gimp. Anything else is, in my opinion. irrelevant and should not appear here. Norman ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp - gimpshop - newbie
On Monday 09 July 2007 04:30:06 norman wrote: lots of snip Build up a community that wants something better but uses gimpshop as a temporary hack. Learn from gimpshop what is needed and then draw development energy from the community to develop something better. My plea is for you guys to stop using your guts to think and let your brains provide sound and constructive strategies for the long term benefit of gimp. I have been following this discussion and I think I can understand both points of view, to some extent. I have never heard of gimpshop and I read this list to learn about and to try to understand Gimp. Anything else is, in my opinion. irrelevant and should not appear here. Well gimpshop is an attempt (somewhat flawed, to provide a GUI for gimp that replicates the GUI for photoshop. basically it builds gimp as a dependency and hacks the gui so someone with photoshop experience can use gimp. To that extent it is very relevant because the majority of people who manipulate photographic images use photoshop. Currently gimpshop is a hack which if it were either more efficient or an alternative photoshop gui was available gimp would draw tens of thousands of users who would then see gimp as a viable alternative to photoshop. That would mean more developers, features and a bigger and better community of users. IMHO gimpshop is a great idea. According to some its developers have not behaved well -- my guess is there are two sides to the story. The important thing is to look to what can be provided not what can be stopped!! Currently all I am suggesting is that people with a history of scores to settle need to keep quiet and if others want to talk about gimpshop then let them do so. Noone is saying any single individual should feel obliged to contribute to those discussion. Let us be mature, open and flexible rather than driven by hostility. IMHO Developers have their struggles.. users are only interested in functionality rather than the politics of past struggles. David Southwell Davd ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp - gimpshop - newbie
On Monday 09 July 2007, Sven Neumann wrote: I just tried to help you by pointing out that gimpshop is a different application and that you should try to get support for it from the people who did the fork. If you did that you might have found out that there is no such support. You might then reconsider your decision, but that is of course completely up to you. Hi, Sven! I appreciate the help you've given me at various times over the years, and I suspect that an ideal route to follow at this point might be to add a Wiki entry which carefully, politely explains this in great detail. Then future queries can be answered like this: GimpShop is a different product to GIMP. Read about the differences and support issues here: http://wiki.gimp.org/gimp/GimpShop I'd happily write up such a page but I know practically nothing about the background of GimpShop, so I've just put a brief stop-gap into the Wiki. I've linked to GimpShop and PhotoShop (both on Wikipedia), so if that's not the right thing to do, please erase the links. Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/Member, Linux Professionals WA http://osia.net.au/ Member, Open Source Industry Australia http://linux.org.au/Committee Member, Linux Australia ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp - gimpshop - newbie
David Southwell wrote: Currently all I am suggesting is that people with a history of scores to settle need to keep quiet and if others want to talk about gimpshop then let them do so. Noone is saying any single individual should feel obliged to contribute to those discussion. Let us be mature, open and flexible rather than driven by hostility. IMHO Developers have their struggles.. users are only interested in functionality rather than the politics of past struggles. 1. GIMP and GIMPShop are two different projects. 2. This mailing list is for users of the GIMP. 3. This mailing list is not for users of GIMPShop. What part of this do you not understand? It is of no relevance whether you think that you should be able to discuss GIMPShop on this list or not. This list is not for discussion of GIMPShop. People have tried to explain this to you, but you appear unable to understand. Please just stop, this noise is distracting and irrelevant. ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp - gimpshop - newbie
On Mon, 9 Jul 2007 05:02:19 -0700, David Southwell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That would mean more developers, features and a bigger and better community of users. IMHO gimpshop is a great idea. According to some its developers have not behaved well -- my guess is there are two sides to the story. The important thing is to look to what can be provided not what can be stopped!! Unfortunately, more users does not automatically mean more developers and more features. In some cases, this is even the opposite: some projects have seen their number of developers decrease as the number of users increased, because the community became worse (large number of conflicting user requests, unrealistic expectations, developer burn-out, etc.). You claim that there are two sides to the story regarding the development of Gimpshop. This may be the case, but I encourage you to take a look at the archive of the gimp-developer mailing list and find the early discussions about Gimpshop. Then see the suggestions about how to do it right and what happened since then (hint: Gimpshop is still a fork using modifications to the source code instead of being an add-on). As I wrote in my previous message, the GIMP developers are not opposed to some of the ideas included in Gimpshop, if only they were implemented in a correct way. The developers are open to suggestions and are looking at alternative solutions whenever possible. Just check the recent usability enhancements in SVN if you are not convinced about that. Currently all I am suggesting is that people with a history of scores to settle need to keep quiet and if others want to talk about gimpshop then let them do so. Noone is saying any single individual should feel obliged to contribute to those discussion. I don't think that I have a history of scores to settle with Gimpshop. If fact, I do not even remember contributing to previous discussions (I haven't checked, though). But please be a bit more open yourself and consider what others have written in the last days. Discussions about Gimpshop tend to create confusion on this list. Even if we ignore the technical and political aspects of how Gimpshop was implemented, the simple fact that any discussion about Gimpshop on this list tends to generate noise should be a sufficient reason to avoid such discussions in the future. This doesn't mean that Gimpshop is a taboo that should not be mentioned here. But instead of discussing it here, it would be much better to point users to a more specific mailing list. -Raphaël ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp - gimpshop - newbie
On Sunday 08 July 2007 14:37:01 Manish Singh wrote: On Sun, Jul 08, 2007 at 02:42:22PM -0700, David Southwell wrote: I rather gather there are those who disparage gimpshop and wish it to fail and those who wish it to succeed but are afraid of offending some members of the former group. Maybe gimp could benefit from a more catholic and generous approach being espoused by everyone. Maybe the creator of GimpShop should have respected the GIMP community instead of rejecting it. He did not consult anyone on any of the GIMP lists at all as to proper approaches, or even showed any interest in actually making useful contributions. Since GimpShop rejects the GIMP community, we respect that decision and do not support it here. If you have issues with this, take it up with the people who do GimpShop. They can't reject the community yet expect simultaneously expect it to provide support. This is a developer grudge centric response. There are millions of trained photoshop users out there. Most modern software seperates the view or (GUI) from the Model and the controller. This means that developing alternative skins (gui's) becomes s straightforward process. Maybe this discussion could be turned into examining the question -- How easy would it be to focus on facilitating the development of alternative skins (gui's) for gimp? A gui that emulates photoshop is really needed . Really gimpshop is part of gimp.. the version of gimpshop running on my system depends upon the latest version of gimp. David Southwell ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp - gimpshop - newbie
On Sunday 08 July 2007, David Southwell wrote: On Sunday 08 July 2007 12:07:55 Sven Neumann wrote: Hi, On Sun, 2007-07-08 at 07:48 -0700, David Southwell wrote: I just want to make clear that people who are accustomed to be positively helpful deserve encouragement and others, not of that disposition, IMHO contribute more to this worlld when they remain silent. I just tried to help you by pointing out that gimpshop is a different application and that you should try to get support for it from the people who did the fork. If you did that you might have found out that there is no such support. You might then reconsider your decision, but that is of course completely up to you. Am I not correct in saying that gimpshop a tool using gimp? Judging by the helpful replies I have received gimpshop is also of considerable interest to many users of gimp who use this list. It might be considerably improved by a being better supported by those who are advocates of gimp. I rather gather there are those who disparage gimpshop and wish it to fail and those who wish it to succeed but are afraid of offending some members of the former group. Maybe gimp could benefit from a more catholic and generous approach being espoused by everyone. IMHO the gimp community could benefit from the offer of an interface that more closely resembles photoshop. How that might be achieved maybe another David, it's just not worth it. The powers on this list are frighteningly short-sighted when it comes to discussions like you are proposing. Even though a large chunk of the list feels differently, they will moderate you eventually into the ground. ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp - gimpshop - newbie
On Mon, 9 Jul 2007 20:08:26 +0800, Leon Brooks [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Then future queries can be answered like this: GimpShop is a different product to GIMP. Read about the differences and support issues here: http://wiki.gimp.org/gimp/GimpShop I'd happily write up such a page but I know practically nothing about the background of GimpShop, so I've just put a brief stop-gap into the Wiki. Thanks a lot for this good idea! I have updated this wiki page and provided a link to a GIMPshop forum that may be helpful for GIMPshop users. If anybody finds more mailing lists or forums dedicated to GIMPshop, feel free to add the relevant links to that page. I have also added a short description of some technical problems related to the fork (code conflicts, breaking translations) and again, this section can be expanded if anybody feels like writing more about it. Now I hope that we can get back to discussing GIMP on this list... -Raphaël ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp - gimpshop - newbie
Hi Brendan, David, it's just not worth it. The powers on this list are frighteningly short-sighted when it comes to discussions like you are proposing. Even though a large chunk of the list feels differently, they will moderate you eventually into the ground. Well, a large chunk is suitably vague, but I just want it clear that many of us also appreciate the moderation. I don't appreciate people like David Southwell coming in and trying to turn the list into something that it is not, which is a list about Gimp. It is not about Gimpshop, or ImageMagick, or CinePaint, or whatever. The fact that he can find some help is not the point - you could probably find people on this list interested in political candidates or global warming, but this is not the place for those discussions. In my opinion. -- --alex http://alexfeldman.org begin:vcard fn:Alex Feldman n:Feldman;Alex email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED] title:Retired tel;work:208-426-3374 tel;home:208-386-9164 x-mozilla-html:TRUE version:2.1 end:vcard ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp - gimpshop - newbie
Em 2007/07/09, às 11:06, Simon Budig escreveu: And in case you missed it, we are in a very intense process of looking at the gimp user interface and improving it. People comparing the current 2.3 development version with 2.2 tend to like the changes a lot. I prefer this way over just emulating parts of the Photoshop interface. In fact some of its improvements are getting better than what's avalable in Photoshop :) Yeah! Victor Domingos___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp - gimpshop - newbie
On Monday 09 July 2007, Alex Feldman wrote: Hi Brendan, David, it's just not worth it. The powers on this list are frighteningly short-sighted when it comes to discussions like you are proposing. Even though a large chunk of the list feels differently, they will moderate you eventually into the ground. Well, a large chunk is suitably vague, but I just want it clear that many of us also appreciate the moderation. I don't appreciate people like David Southwell coming in and trying to turn the list into something that it is not, which is a list about Gimp. It is not about Gimpshop, or ImageMagick, or CinePaint, or whatever. The fact that he can find some help is not the point - you could probably find people on this list interested in political candidates or global warming, but this is not the place for those discussions. In my opinion. David had Gimpshop in one thread, big deal. People get so sensitive about one guy discussing one topic which is confusing. If the topic doesn't get replies, then it dies. Now a wiki exists to explain to people like David why the people who run Gimp feel the way they do. All done. Now you can get back to discussing whatever you were discussing. If one topic on a mailing list ruins your day, perhaps you should look into lightening up. ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp - gimpshop - newbie
On Monday 09 July 2007, David Southwell wrote: A gui that emulates photoshop is really needed. If it were done as a wrapper idea over standard GIMP, and integrated, I could easily agree with that. Much better again if it were modular, so you could enable and disable PS-ish chunks. The current gung-ho we-know-better approach is hardly conducive to co-operation, and I suspect that the result will be a poor man's clone of PS, one which continually lags behind both PS and GIMP. Abandoning core GIMP work to support it will hurt GS first up because it will stop providing better platforms from which to build the clones, second up by making PS more of a false standard to which GS must constantly be in pursuit. With this in mind, the ideal thing to do is to start (without, of course, asking the GS developers) a GimpShop Clone which is a more modular menuing system for GIMP, expressed as a PS-like overlay. Call it PhotoGIMP and listen to the whinging! (-: Things like a PS plugin-plugin would be a worthy but I think separate project. Amongst other things, you could probably convince such a beastie to run essentially headless. Call it PhotoFactory and see what other whinges arise? It would be in the spirit of the thing to do overlays for TuxPaint, GPhoto, MS-Paint or whatever as well. Anyway, that's my 2c worth. End of conversation, I suspect. Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/Member, Linux Professionals WA http://osia.net.au/ Member, Open Source Industry Australia http://linux.org.au/Committee Member, Linux Australia ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp - gimpshop - newbie
On Mon, 9 Jul 2007 09:20:12 -0400 Brendan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And I am only going on the large chunk of emails I got when I was talking about Gimpshop. All of them from list members. Why doesn't this large chunk of users create a gimpshop mailing list (or forum or whatever), instead of sending private e-mails in fear of being moderated? It would be much more convenient. Karine ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp - gimpshop - newbie
[slightly reordering the quotes] David Southwell ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Really gimpshop is part of gimp.. the version of gimpshop running on my system depends upon the latest version of gimp. This is backwards logic. We - as the GIMP developers - have no influence on Gimpshop. Hence it cannot be a part of the Gimp. If at all it is the other way around: Gimpshop needs Gimp to work, hence (a specific version of) Gimp is part of Gimpshop. A gui that emulates photoshop is really needed . I don't think so. If people want to have a GUI that behaves like Photoshop, then they should simply use photoshop. It might surprise you, but we don't actually have a problem with people making that descision. There are millions of trained photoshop users out there. Most modern software seperates the view or (GUI) from the Model and the controller. This means that developing alternative skins (gui's) becomes s straightforward process. Maybe this discussion could be turned into examining the question -- How easy would it be to focus on facilitating the development of alternative skins (gui's) for gimp? We already have two guis - the classical Gimp user interface and a commandline tool, which does not even link against GTK+ (the library for displaying the buttons/windows/menus on the screen). Granted, the latter is not exactly an exiting interface, but it shows, that the image manipulation core and the GUI are pretty well separated at the moment. So, the separation you want is there. However, the largest chunk of code in the GIMP deals with the User interface. If one wants to exchange this against another user interface he would have to write an awful lot of code. Not exactly easy. And for a separation inbetween through the GUI I don't see an obvious cutting point. Bye, Simon -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://simon.budig.de/ ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp - gimpshop - newbie
On Monday 09 July 2007 05:18:23 Raphaël Quinet wrote: On Mon, 9 Jul 2007 05:02:19 -0700, David Southwell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That would mean more developers, features and a bigger and better community of users. IMHO gimpshop is a great idea. According to some its developers have not behaved well -- my guess is there are two sides to the story. The important thing is to look to what can be provided not what can be stopped!! Unfortunately, more users does not automatically mean more developers and more features. In some cases, this is even the opposite: some projects have seen their number of developers decrease as the number of users increased, because the community became worse (large number of conflicting user requests, unrealistic expectations, developer burn-out, etc.). You claim that there are two sides to the story regarding the development of Gimpshop. This may be the case, but I encourage you to take a look at the archive of the gimp-developer mailing list and find the early discussions about Gimpshop. Then see the suggestions about how to do it right and what happened since then (hint: Gimpshop is still a fork using modifications to the source code instead of being an add-on). As I wrote in my previous message, the GIMP developers are not opposed to some of the ideas included in Gimpshop, if only they were implemented in a correct way. The developers are open to suggestions and are looking at alternative solutions whenever possible. Just check the recent usability enhancements in SVN if you are not convinced about that. Currently all I am suggesting is that people with a history of scores to settle need to keep quiet and if others want to talk about gimpshop then let them do so. Noone is saying any single individual should feel obliged to contribute to those discussion. I don't think that I have a history of scores to settle with Gimpshop. If fact, I do not even remember contributing to previous discussions (I haven't checked, though). But please be a bit more open yourself and consider what others have written in the last days. Discussions about Gimpshop tend to create confusion on this list. Even if we ignore the technical and political aspects of how Gimpshop was implemented, the simple fact that any discussion about Gimpshop on this list tends to generate noise should be a sufficient reason to avoid such discussions in the future. This doesn't mean that Gimpshop is a taboo that should not be mentioned here. But instead of discussing it here, it would be much better to point users to a more specific mailing list. I hear you but do not agree with you entirely. Destructive discussion about whether gimpshop discussion between consenting adults should be allowed or not is like proposing the baby should be put out with the bathwater. There seem to be plenty of emotional reasons for doing so but no compelling logic for trying to ban it and it is the attempt to stamp it out that creates confusion.. not discussion between consenting adults. If discussion about gimpshop is left to those that want to discuss it then no harm is done but goodwill is earned by the gimp project. Such a simple step would show maturity -- anything else can be interpreted as an attack of juvenile pique. It seems to me that confusion on the list is created not by discussing gimpshop but by trying to rationalise an authoritarian approach to discussion. When all is said and done all that gimpshop does is create an alternative GUI for gimp. It does not do it well -- it could be done better but it is the best photoshop like gui that gimp has got. Until it gets better then the gimp community take full advantage of it and the fact that the gimpshop development team is not exactly bursting with energy. I do not know the history of how gimpshop developers and gimp developers fell out with one another. Frankly I amd most users do not care about how that happened but I am more concerned about how the future. I would like to see a viable photoshop emulating gui for gimp and 16+bit per channel, decent raw file handling and a far more easily customisable working environment that builds on industry wide knowledge. My guess is that if the code for gimp had been developed in accordance with MVC guidelines then the arguments between developers might not have arisen. That poses the question -- how can gimp code be developed so that the creation of alternative GUI's are facilitated? Thanks again David Southwell ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp - gimpshop - newbie
On Mon, Jul 09, 2007 at 05:36:44AM -0700, David Southwell wrote: On Sunday 08 July 2007 14:37:01 Manish Singh wrote: On Sun, Jul 08, 2007 at 02:42:22PM -0700, David Southwell wrote: I rather gather there are those who disparage gimpshop and wish it to fail and those who wish it to succeed but are afraid of offending some members of the former group. Maybe gimp could benefit from a more catholic and generous approach being espoused by everyone. Maybe the creator of GimpShop should have respected the GIMP community instead of rejecting it. He did not consult anyone on any of the GIMP lists at all as to proper approaches, or even showed any interest in actually making useful contributions. Since GimpShop rejects the GIMP community, we respect that decision and do not support it here. If you have issues with this, take it up with the people who do GimpShop. They can't reject the community yet expect simultaneously expect it to provide support. This is a developer grudge centric response. There are millions of trained photoshop users out there. Most modern software seperates the view or (GUI) from the Model and the controller. This means that developing alternative skins (gui's) becomes s straightforward process. Maybe this discussion could be turned into examining the question -- How easy would it be to focus on facilitating the development of alternative skins (gui's) for gimp? A gui that emulates photoshop is really needed . Really gimpshop is part of gimp.. the version of gimpshop running on my system depends upon the latest version of gimp. Wow, everything you've said in this post is pretty much wrong. Same thing goes for most of your other posts. You write a lot but actually say very little. You clearly don't do any research before you make your assertions. I question that you have even used Photoshop, since you seem to think the half-assed things GimpShop does to emulate Photoshop really makes PS users comfortable. Please stop posting to the list, as all you can seem to do is post misinformation and assertions that you cannot back up. -Yosh ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp - gimpshop - newbie
On Mon, 2007-09-07 at 07:55 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Destructive discussion about whether gimpshop discussion between consenting adults should be allowed or not is like proposing the baby should be put out with the bathwater. Look David, I'm a GIMP user and I don't appreciate questions and answers on this this that do not directly relate to GIMP. Imagine a new user hearing a solution to their question answered in a Photoshop way and then going to the GIMP and finding out it doesn't work. Please do not confuse these two DIFFERENT projects. As others have said if you want Gimpshop support, start your own list. This list is about GIMP, it's what the list owners meant when they created it, leave it at that. ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp - gimpshop - newbie
Manish Singh wrote: Please stop posting to the list, as all you can seem to do is post misinformation and assertions that you cannot back up. I would take it one more step and request that no one respond to any more posts on this discussion. David, you're a troll, please drop this issue. -- Until later, Geoffrey Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. - Benjamin Franklin ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp - gimpshop - newbie
Hi, On Sat, 2007-07-07 at 02:34 -0700, David Southwell wrote: I have installed ports/gimpshop on my fFreebsd 6.1 system. I want to compare its functionality with photoshop with which I am extremely familar and use extensively on my Win XP system. Please ask on the gimpshop user list then. You might find that there is no such list. But we can't help you with gimpshop questions here. It is a different application and this is the gimp user list. Sven ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp - gimpshop - newbie
On Sunday 08 July 2007 02:41:26 you wrote: Hi, On Sat, 2007-07-07 at 02:34 -0700, David Southwell wrote: I have installed ports/gimpshop on my fFreebsd 6.1 system. I want to compare its functionality with photoshop with which I am extremely familar and use extensively on my Win XP system. Please ask on the gimpshop user list then. You might find that there is no such list. But we can't help you with gimpshop questions here. It is a different application and this is the gimp user list. Who is we.. I appreciate the helpful responses I have had from some people on this list. I just want to make clear that people who are accustomed to be positively helpful deserve encouragement and others, not of that disposition, IMHO contribute more to this worlld when they remain silent. Thanks David ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp - gimpshop - newbie
* David Southwell [EMAIL PROTECTED] [07-08-07 10:36]: On Sunday 08 July 2007 02:41:26 you wrote: Please ask on the gimpshop user list then. You might find that there is no such list. But we can't help you with gimpshop questions here. It is a different application and this is the gimp user list. Who is we.. I appreciate the helpful responses I have had from some people on this list. I just want to make clear that people who are accustomed to be positively helpful deserve encouragement and others, not of that disposition, IMHO contribute more to this worlld when they remain silent. You are off base and *need* to curb your tongue. This is *not* a list for support of gimpshop which is a fork of gimp and totally unsupported here. AND you are remanding one of the *staunchest* gimp supporters. Get *your* facts straight before running your mouth (via your fingers). -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USAHOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535@ http://counter.li.org ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp - gimpshop - newbie
On Sunday 08 July 2007 07:42:04 Patrick Shanahan wrote: * David Southwell [EMAIL PROTECTED] [07-08-07 10:36]: On Sunday 08 July 2007 02:41:26 you wrote: Please ask on the gimpshop user list then. You might find that there is no such list. But we can't help you with gimpshop questions here. It is a different application and this is the gimp user list. Who is we.. I appreciate the helpful responses I have had from some people on this list. I just want to make clear that people who are accustomed to be positively helpful deserve encouragement and others, not of that disposition, IMHO contribute more to this worlld when they remain silent. You are off base and *need* to curb your tongue. This is *not* a list for support of gimpshop which is a fork of gimp and totally unsupported here. AND you are remanding one of the *staunchest* gimp supporters. Get *your* facts straight before running your mouth (via your fingers). What facts have I not got correct? IMHO you are entitled to your point of view and I would not want to discourage you from expressing it .. after all I am sure you would agree that neither I nor anyone else is above criticism. Thank you David Southwell ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp - gimpshop - newbie
Hi, On Sun, 2007-07-08 at 07:48 -0700, David Southwell wrote: I just want to make clear that people who are accustomed to be positively helpful deserve encouragement and others, not of that disposition, IMHO contribute more to this worlld when they remain silent. I just tried to help you by pointing out that gimpshop is a different application and that you should try to get support for it from the people who did the fork. If you did that you might have found out that there is no such support. You might then reconsider your decision, but that is of course completely up to you. Sven ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp - gimpshop - newbie
On Sunday 08 July 2007 12:07:55 Sven Neumann wrote: Hi, On Sun, 2007-07-08 at 07:48 -0700, David Southwell wrote: I just want to make clear that people who are accustomed to be positively helpful deserve encouragement and others, not of that disposition, IMHO contribute more to this worlld when they remain silent. I just tried to help you by pointing out that gimpshop is a different application and that you should try to get support for it from the people who did the fork. If you did that you might have found out that there is no such support. You might then reconsider your decision, but that is of course completely up to you. Am I not correct in saying that gimpshop a tool using gimp? Judging by the helpful replies I have received gimpshop is also of considerable interest to many users of gimp who use this list. It might be considerably improved by a being better supported by those who are advocates of gimp. I rather gather there are those who disparage gimpshop and wish it to fail and those who wish it to succeed but are afraid of offending some members of the former group. Maybe gimp could benefit from a more catholic and generous approach being espoused by everyone. IMHO the gimp community could benefit from the offer of an interface that more closely resembles photoshop. How that might be achieved maybe another matter. Your encouragement of all alternatives might lead to a wider adoption and respect for gimp. While I am sure you were not ill intentioned IMHO the tone of response did not make me feel welcomed or helped and I have reason for believing I am not the only one to have reached such a conclusion. Thanks David Southwell ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp - gimpshop - newbie
On Sun, Jul 08, 2007 at 02:42:22PM -0700, David Southwell wrote: I rather gather there are those who disparage gimpshop and wish it to fail and those who wish it to succeed but are afraid of offending some members of the former group. Maybe gimp could benefit from a more catholic and generous approach being espoused by everyone. Maybe the creator of GimpShop should have respected the GIMP community instead of rejecting it. He did not consult anyone on any of the GIMP lists at all as to proper approaches, or even showed any interest in actually making useful contributions. Since GimpShop rejects the GIMP community, we respect that decision and do not support it here. If you have issues with this, take it up with the people who do GimpShop. They can't reject the community yet expect simultaneously expect it to provide support. -Yosh ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp - gimpshop - newbie
Hi, On Sun, 2007-07-08 at 14:42 -0700, David Southwell wrote: Am I not correct in saying that gimpshop a tool using gimp? No, you are not correct in saying that. It's a forked version and the person who did that fork refuses to work with the GIMP developers. We don't get any support from gimpshop, thus we don't support it. A wider adoption of gimpshop doesn't help the GIMP project. It just causes us more work because the gimpshop developer(s) let us provide the user support. They let us do the bug-fixing and they let us do the development. The way gimpshop is done makes it impossible to return anything to the GIMP project. And please mote that I did not send you away. I just asked you politely to ask your gimpshop questions elsewhere. Please accept that and stop this argument here. Sven ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp - gimpshop - newbie
Not sure how well GimpShop will run on FreeBSD. I don't know anything about FreeBSD, myself (I am running Ubuntu Dapper), but I wonder if GimpShop and and the Gimp 2.2.15 it looks like you installed will have a conflict. On windows, GimpShop has been pretty much a bugfest, at Gimptalk, we always tried to steer people away from it, because many complained about its instability, not to mention the fact that asking for help in it's use was rather confusing, since it uses a different menu setup than the regular Gimp. I know I tried it at one point, because it would install without admin privelages on the computers where I work. It ran for about a day, then would just open and crash immediately afterwards. I got rid of it. Also, not sure what version of Gimp this latest GimpShop is based on, it most likely isn't the latest stable version. For the longest time, it was based on Gimp 2.2.8. As for Canon RAW files, that's a tricky question. For starters, Gimp, and most likely, by extension, GimpShop, only supports 8 bit color, so even if you can open a RAW file in Gimp/GimpShop, you aren't going to get all the information. However there is a standalone program, UFRAW, that also can be used as a Gimp plug-in which will load the files and allow some manipulation. I am not sure how the plugin will work with GimpShop. There is also DigiKam, which, with appropriate plugins, can handle Canon RAW files. I have a Rebel XT and this is what I use when I want to mess with RAW files. --- David Southwell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi I have installed ports/gimpshop on my fFreebsd 6.1 system. I want to compare its functionality with photoshop with which I am extremely familar and use extensively on my Win XP system. I have started gimp and have two newbie questions. 1. How do I get to start gimpshop? The docs seem to have detailed documentation but although I have searched much head scratching -- I seem unable to find a page that tells me how to get gimpshop running :-( 2. I found that gimp will itself will open *.jpg but does not open raw files - In my case in need to be able to open canon raw files *.cr2 and would also like to be able to open photoshop *.psd files. Here is a list of the relevant gimp packages installed and OS version info: # pkg_info |grep gimp gimp-2.2.15,2 The meta-port for The Gimp gimp-help-0.12 GIMP user's manual gimp-print-4.2.7_3 GIMP Print Printer Driver gimpshop-2.2.11_5 GIMP fork resembling Adobe Photoshop # uname -a FreeBSD --- 6.1-RELEASE FreeBSD 6.1-RELEASE #0: Sun May 7 04:15:57 UTC 2006 [EMAIL PROTECTED]:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/SMP amd64 Thanks in advance david ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center. http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/ ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
