Re: [U2] Code Collaboration
So you admit this is dangerous and yet you still publish some one else's link ? Remind me not to give you any of my email or link addresses -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Wjhonson Sent: 19 November 2011 22:45 To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] Code Collaboration http://nebula-rnd.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=Special:AllPages I hope you have some kind of spam control on the install It doesn't come natively with one, as I've learned after 2 or 4 thousand vandalisms -Original Message- From: Tony Gravagno 3xk547...@sneakemail.com To: u2-users u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Sat, Nov 19, 2011 12:59 pm Subject: Re: [U2] Code Collaboration From: Wjhonson It exists So that's two people who mention something without giving any link TO it. Makes you wonder why no one visits it!! Will, I'm reminded why I don't get into forum discussions with you - you don't read information that's provided. In the name of brevity here (Never invite Tony to give a one minute speech !) I had taken my forum posting and moved it out to my blog. In that blog I have a link to the wiki prototype. With apologies, I didn't post the link here as I thought. But if you had visited the blog which I created specifically to respond to your points, you would have found the MediaWiki prototype replacement for PickWiki. removethisNebula-RnD.com/blog/tech/mv/2011/11/mvcollaboration.htm l But beating on the same drum, does github have email subscription notifications of pages you are watching (but to which you have not contributed) ? If not, then it's the same old problem. You have to go to it, to even remember that it's there. Response 1, I refer again to: http://ilikestuffblog.com/2011/07/14/github-notifications-suck/ Response 2, see comment in my last note: Nothing is perfect. Join millions of people who deal with that concept every day. Response 3: (again) you can get notifications by other means. I disagree that people will not use a wiki to contribute code changes. Disagree, but here's the change log showing activity over the last year: http://www.pickwiki.com/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?RecentChanges Last month you yourself added a link to a page that doesn't exist. (Thank you for that valuable resource.) Recent notes from people here, and the log, confirm that almost no one ever contributes updates to existing code at PickWiki. There are notes on the wiki about how to use the site, and people eager and easily available to help. The site is just not used for collaboration though it's available for anyone who wants it. No, it's not great, but Ian didn't originally intend it to be a collaboration site when he created it ... it just became a defacto repository. If we get significant demand for improving the resource for real collaboration, a few of us here will be eager to do it. T ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1411 / Virus Database: 2092/4026 - Release Date: 11/19/11 ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Code Collaboration
Steady now - the comment was about mediawiki attracting link spammers. Nothing 'dangerous' about it, except for the google juice of the person hosting the site. Perhaps we can move past the conversation about code collaboration being doomed to fail and have those who want to try give it a shot? The doubters can defer their schadenfreude until the *actual* failure :-) Ian Sent with Good (www.good.com) -Original Message- From: Symeon Breen [mailto:syme...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, November 21, 2011 12:17 AM Pacific Standard Time To: 'U2 Users List' Subject:Re: [U2] Code Collaboration So you admit this is dangerous and yet you still publish some one else's link ? Remind me not to give you any of my email or link addresses -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Wjhonson Sent: 19 November 2011 22:45 To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] Code Collaboration http://nebula-rnd.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=Special:AllPages I hope you have some kind of spam control on the install It doesn't come natively with one, as I've learned after 2 or 4 thousand vandalisms -Original Message- From: Tony Gravagno 3xk547...@sneakemail.com To: u2-users u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Sat, Nov 19, 2011 12:59 pm Subject: Re: [U2] Code Collaboration From: Wjhonson It exists So that's two people who mention something without giving any link TO it. Makes you wonder why no one visits it!! Will, I'm reminded why I don't get into forum discussions with you - you don't read information that's provided. In the name of brevity here (Never invite Tony to give a one minute speech !) I had taken my forum posting and moved it out to my blog. In that blog I have a link to the wiki prototype. With apologies, I didn't post the link here as I thought. But if you had visited the blog which I created specifically to respond to your points, you would have found the MediaWiki prototype replacement for PickWiki. removethisNebula-RnD.com/blog/tech/mv/2011/11/mvcollaboration.htm l But beating on the same drum, does github have email subscription notifications of pages you are watching (but to which you have not contributed) ? If not, then it's the same old problem. You have to go to it, to even remember that it's there. Response 1, I refer again to: http://ilikestuffblog.com/2011/07/14/github-notifications-suck/ Response 2, see comment in my last note: Nothing is perfect. Join millions of people who deal with that concept every day. Response 3: (again) you can get notifications by other means. I disagree that people will not use a wiki to contribute code changes. Disagree, but here's the change log showing activity over the last year: http://www.pickwiki.com/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?RecentChanges Last month you yourself added a link to a page that doesn't exist. (Thank you for that valuable resource.) Recent notes from people here, and the log, confirm that almost no one ever contributes updates to existing code at PickWiki. There are notes on the wiki about how to use the site, and people eager and easily available to help. The site is just not used for collaboration though it's available for anyone who wants it. No, it's not great, but Ian didn't originally intend it to be a collaboration site when he created it ... it just became a defacto repository. If we get significant demand for improving the resource for real collaboration, a few of us here will be eager to do it. T ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1411 / Virus Database: 2092/4026 - Release Date: 11/19/11 ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users - IMPORTANT NOTICE: This message is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, you may not use, copy or disclose any information contained in the message. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender by reply e-mail and delete the message. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Code Collaboration
Collaboration happens when two or more people have the same itch to scratch. Someone thinks to himself I've got to pass PICK data in JSON and starts looking for projects that do that. It does not happen the other way around, where you might stumble upon a project and say to yourself, hmm, a PICK to JSON project -- I think I'll collaborate on that. The PickWiki to MediaWiki project, my u2pipe stuff, and a bunch of others have been mentioned in this list plenty of times for people with an itch to take notice. Advertising a project does not drive thoughtful collaboration; having a genuine itch that demands scratching does. This goes back to my earlier point that if you want a bunch of people actively collaborating on a project, it has to be big -- big enough to scratch a bunch of itches. rex ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Code Collaboration
So advertising doesn't work. That's a new twist. I don't share your belief that people will by nature gravitate towards unadvertised web space -Original Message- From: Rex Gozar rgo...@gmail.com To: U2 Users List u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Mon, Nov 21, 2011 7:10 am Subject: Re: [U2] Code Collaboration Collaboration happens when two or more people have the same itch to cratch. Someone thinks to himself I've got to pass PICK data in SON and starts looking for projects that do that. It does not appen the other way around, where you might stumble upon a project nd say to yourself, hmm, a PICK to JSON project -- I think I'll ollaborate on that. The PickWiki to MediaWiki project, my u2pipe tuff, and a bunch of others have been mentioned in this list plenty f times for people with an itch to take notice. Advertising a roject does not drive thoughtful collaboration; having a genuine itch hat demands scratching does. This goes back to my earlier point that if you want a bunch of people ctively collaborating on a project, it has to be big -- big enough to cratch a bunch of itches. rex __ 2-Users mailing list 2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org ttp://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Code Collaboration
Sure advertising works, Will, but I'll bet you don't buy feminine products just because you see the ads on TV :) rex On Mon, Nov 21, 2011 at 12:23 PM, Wjhonson wjhon...@aol.com wrote: So advertising doesn't work. That's a new twist. I don't share your belief that people will by nature gravitate towards unadvertised web space ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Code Collaboration
That's right I don't. But in a Venn diagram of two circles intersecting, you have four regions, not two. -Original Message- From: Rex Gozar rgo...@gmail.com To: U2 Users List u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:14 am Subject: Re: [U2] Code Collaboration Sure advertising works, Will, but I'll bet you don't buy feminine roducts just because you see the ads on TV :) rex On Mon, Nov 21, 2011 at 12:23 PM, Wjhonson wjhon...@aol.com wrote: So advertising doesn't work. That's a new twist. I don't share your belief that people will by nature gravitate towards nadvertised web space __ 2-Users mailing list 2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org ttp://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Code Collaboration
So Will, if you are saying you have a burning need for a better PICK collaboration site then go for it. Build it. Advertise it. And those people in the community that share your need will undoubtedly join you in building a better site. Perhaps there are people in your local PICK users group that would want to help in the initial stages. rex ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Code Collaboration
No I'm saying we are currently holding, right here, a white board discussion for how to go about it. That involves not one person, but a community. On your other note, there are no local pick user groups anywhere within four hundred miles of me :) Don't you know? They are dying out one by one, like lights on a christmas light strand. -Original Message- From: Rex Gozar rgo...@gmail.com To: U2 Users List u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:39 am Subject: Re: [U2] Code Collaboration So Will, if you are saying you have a burning need for a better PICK ollaboration site then go for it. Build it. Advertise it. And hose people in the community that share your need will undoubtedly oin you in building a better site. Perhaps there are people in your ocal PICK users group that would want to help in the initial stages. rex __ 2-Users mailing list 2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org ttp://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Code Collaboration
To everybody in the community, Who else has a burning need for a new collaboration website? rex On Mon, Nov 21, 2011 at 1:52 PM, Wjhonson wjhon...@aol.com wrote: No I'm saying we are currently holding, right here, a white board discussion for how to go about it. That involves not one person, but a community. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Code Collaboration
Thankfully, they aren't the kind that when one goes out, they all go out! But, same here I think. I don't know of any pick users group in my area either (Philadephia) But would be interested if there are. -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Wjhonson Sent: Monday, November 21, 2011 1:53 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] Code Collaboration No I'm saying we are currently holding, right here, a white board discussion for how to go about it. That involves not one person, but a community. On your other note, there are no local pick user groups anywhere within four hundred miles of me :) Don't you know? They are dying out one by one, like lights on a christmas light strand. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Code Collaboration
I never realized we had an old one I would be interested. I'm currently working on an fpdf port on a here and there timeframe. George -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Rex Gozar Sent: Monday, November 21, 2011 2:05 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] Code Collaboration To everybody in the community, Who else has a burning need for a new collaboration website? rex On Mon, Nov 21, 2011 at 1:52 PM, Wjhonson wjhon...@aol.com wrote: No I'm saying we are currently holding, right here, a white board discussion for how to go about it. That involves not one person, but a community. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Code Collaboration
I originally wrote my notes for a prior post but noticed that both Ian and Rex weighed in here, so I will as well. Will, please reference my notes earlier. 1) I ported Pickwiki to MediaWiki, and provided a link to a prototype which I could complete if we saw some significant community interest. Absolutely no one but Ian, Rex, and I have expressed any interest in commenting on that MediaWiki implementation. This deafening message of silence is being heard here loud n clear. 2) A quick google for mediawiki notifications returns lots of hits, but I'll save you the pain and tell you that MediaWiki includes email notifications by default. So, while I'd love to say hey, we already have what you want, c'mon down! the problem remains that few other people would use the same resource. As we've seen in this thread, there are links to SourceForge, Github, (both of which DO have email notifications) and others, but everyone wants the community to use Their favorite or they'll walk away. Anyone who doesn't have a favorite seems completely disinterested (OK OK Will, You are not disinterested...). That's what I blogged about and a few people have responded in agreement. I'd really really like to help build another collaboration site, and it can be done quite quickly. But the questions of motivation and interest Must be addressed before we create yet another site that's doomed to die of loneliness. Personally I'd also like to see people just use PickWiki for a while. It's not perfect but it works. Ask the questions and Ian, Rex, and I can help to answer them. Email me if you don't know what else to do. (t...@removethispleasenebula-rnd.com) Let's grow out of that resource. When that happens I'm sure more people would be inclined to take requests and build something suitable. But we're never going to get something that's perfect for everyone. Any resource is going to be some percentage, 50, 70, 94.37% of what each person wants. For this community I'm afraid we have a if it doesn't do This then I won't use it at all mentality - and in many cases This is already possible but people walk anyway without asking the question or waiting for an answer. Go figure. As an example of that, Will, google for web page change notifications, select one of the free services, and provide your email address and a PickWiki webpage reference. THERE is your notification! And if we complete the PickWiki migration to MediaWiki it will be built-in. Next question please! As another example of how even a hugely popular CMS can still be inadequate: http://ilikestuffblog.com/2011/07/14/github-notifications-suck/ Point is - people in this community needs to accept that the code in the rest of the world is about as imperfect as the code they work on every day. FOSS gives us the opportunity to help fix it. If you don't want to fix a CMS, just accept what's available and ask others how best to deal with it as-is. But for now everyone is talking about the environment but for all the years that MV BASIC FOSS has been around, we can probably count on a few hands how many post-publication contributions have ever been made to all projects combined. THAT is a serious concern that should be discussed before finalizing Where these non-contributions are going to take place, and how notifications are going to be sent on pages that are never changed. (BTW, this has become a CDPish discussion, completely outside the realm of U2 tech) T ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Code Collaboration
Never invite Tony to give a one minute speech ! Tony you told us how you ported Pickwiki to Mediwiki, without giving a link. Give the link, right here, where five hundred people are listening. -Original Message- From: Tony Gravagno 3xk547...@sneakemail.com To: u2-users u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Sat, Nov 19, 2011 12:14 am Subject: Re: [U2] Code Collaboration I originally wrote my notes for a prior post but noticed that both Ian and Rex weighed in here, so I will as well. Will, please reference my notes earlier. 1) I ported Pickwiki to MediaWiki, and provided a link to a prototype which I could complete if we saw some significant community interest. Absolutely no one but Ian, Rex, and I have expressed any interest in commenting on that MediaWiki implementation. This deafening message of silence is being heard here loud n clear. 2) A quick google for mediawiki notifications returns lots of hits, but I'll save you the pain and tell you that MediaWiki includes email notifications by default. So, while I'd love to say hey, we already have what you want, c'mon down! the problem remains that few other people would use the same resource. As we've seen in this thread, there are links to SourceForge, Github, (both of which DO have email notifications) and others, but everyone wants the community to use Their favorite or they'll walk away. Anyone who doesn't have a favorite seems completely disinterested (OK OK Will, You are not disinterested...). That's what I blogged about and a few people have responded in agreement. I'd really really like to help build another collaboration site, and it can be done quite quickly. But the questions of motivation and interest Must be addressed before we create yet another site that's doomed to die of loneliness. Personally I'd also like to see people just use PickWiki for a while. It's not perfect but it works. Ask the questions and Ian, Rex, and I can help to answer them. Email me if you don't know what else to do. (t...@removethispleasenebula-rnd.com) Let's grow out of that resource. When that happens I'm sure more people would be inclined to take requests and build something suitable. But we're never going to get something that's perfect for everyone. Any resource is going to be some percentage, 50, 70, 94.37% of what each person wants. For this community I'm afraid we have a if it doesn't do This then I won't use it at all mentality - and in many cases This is already possible but people walk anyway without asking the question or waiting for an answer. Go figure. As an example of that, Will, google for web page change notifications, select one of the free services, and provide your email address and a PickWiki webpage reference. THERE is your notification! And if we complete the PickWiki migration to MediaWiki it will be built-in. Next question please! As another example of how even a hugely popular CMS can still be inadequate: http://ilikestuffblog.com/2011/07/14/github-notifications-suck/ Point is - people in this community needs to accept that the code in the rest of the world is about as imperfect as the code they work on every day. FOSS gives us the opportunity to help fix it. If you don't want to fix a CMS, just accept what's available and ask others how best to deal with it as-is. But for now everyone is talking about the environment but for all the years that MV BASIC FOSS has been around, we can probably count on a few hands how many post-publication contributions have ever been made to all projects combined. THAT is a serious concern that should be discussed before finalizing Where these non-contributions are going to take place, and how notifications are going to be sent on pages that are never changed. (BTW, this has become a CDPish discussion, completely outside the realm of U2 tech) T ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Code Collaboration
O ye of little faith! ;-) It exists, but for me is besides the point. A wiki is *not* a great method to collaborate on the actual code. It's obviously possible, but there are much better ways (cough, github). To move this from the abstract to concrete, what kind of code do people imagine collaborating on? Here's my list (most of which I have, but very hard coded for my environment): Developer tools: Pre-processor (so we can all build on our different versions) Code bundling and dependency tracking (ala ruby-gems) REPL or command stack with things like filename, attribute completion Screen design tools Standard headers/footers Nice input routine Reporting tools Report builders Data tools Extract to XLS, XML, Json Web Service interface Analyse/infer data dependencies Generic utilities Standard email routine -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Wjhonson Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 8:08 AM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] Code Collaboration Never invite Tony to give a one minute speech ! Tony you told us how you ported Pickwiki to Mediwiki, without giving a link. Give the link, right here, where five hundred people are listening. -Original Message- From: Tony Gravagno 3xk547...@sneakemail.com To: u2-users u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Sat, Nov 19, 2011 12:14 am Subject: Re: [U2] Code Collaboration I originally wrote my notes for a prior post but noticed that both Ian and Rex weighed in here, so I will as well. Will, please reference my notes earlier. 1) I ported Pickwiki to MediaWiki, and provided a link to a prototype which I could complete if we saw some significant community interest. Absolutely no one but Ian, Rex, and I have expressed any interest in commenting on that MediaWiki implementation. This deafening message of silence is being heard here loud n clear. 2) A quick google for mediawiki notifications returns lots of hits, but I'll save you the pain and tell you that MediaWiki includes email notifications by default. So, while I'd love to say hey, we already have what you want, c'mon down! the problem remains that few other people would use the same resource. As we've seen in this thread, there are links to SourceForge, Github, (both of which DO have email notifications) and others, but everyone wants the community to use Their favorite or they'll walk away. Anyone who doesn't have a favorite seems completely disinterested (OK OK Will, You are not disinterested...). That's what I blogged about and a few people have responded in agreement. I'd really really like to help build another collaboration site, and it can be done quite quickly. But the questions of motivation and interest Must be addressed before we create yet another site that's doomed to die of loneliness. Personally I'd also like to see people just use PickWiki for a while. It's not perfect but it works. Ask the questions and Ian, Rex, and I can help to answer them. Email me if you don't know what else to do. (t...@removethispleasenebula-rnd.com) Let's grow out of that resource. When that happens I'm sure more people would be inclined to take requests and build something suitable. But we're never going to get something that's perfect for everyone. Any resource is going to be some percentage, 50, 70, 94.37% of what each person wants. For this community I'm afraid we have a if it doesn't do This then I won't use it at all mentality - and in many cases This is already possible but people walk anyway without asking the question or waiting for an answer. Go figure. As an example of that, Will, google for web page change notifications, select one of the free services, and provide your email address and a PickWiki webpage reference. THERE is your notification! And if we complete the PickWiki migration to MediaWiki it will be built-in. Next question please! As another example of how even a hugely popular CMS can still be inadequate: http://ilikestuffblog.com/2011/07/14/github-notifications-suck/ Point is - people in this community needs to accept that the code in the rest of the world is about as imperfect as the code they work on every day. FOSS gives us the opportunity to help fix it. If you don't want to fix a CMS, just accept what's available and ask others how best to deal with it as-is. But for now everyone is talking about the environment but for all the years that MV BASIC FOSS has been around, we can probably count on a few hands how many post-publication contributions have ever been made to all projects combined. THAT is a serious concern that should be discussed before finalizing Where these non-contributions are going to take place, and how notifications are going to be sent on pages that are never changed. (BTW, this has become
Re: [U2] Code Collaboration
It exists So that's two people who mention something without giving any link TO it. Makes you wonder why no one visits it!! But beating on the same drum, does github have email subscription notifications of pages you are watching (but to which you have not contributed) ? If not, then it's the same old problem. You have to go to it, to even remember that it's there. I disagree that people will not use a wiki to contribute code changes. I'd like to at least give the patient a chance to recover before we start harvesting its organs. -Original Message- From: McGowan, Ian ian.mcgo...@bankofthewest.com To: U2 Users List u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:30 am Subject: Re: [U2] Code Collaboration O ye of little faith! ;-) It exists, but for me is besides the point. A wiki is *not* a great method to collaborate on the actual code. It's obviously possible, but there are much better ways (cough, github). To move this from the abstract to concrete, what kind of code do people imagine collaborating on? Here's my list (most of which I have, but very hard coded for my environment): Developer tools: Pre-processor (so we can all build on our different versions) Code bundling and dependency tracking (ala ruby-gems) REPL or command stack with things like filename, attribute completion Screen design tools Standard headers/footers Nice input routine Reporting tools Report builders Data tools Extract to XLS, XML, Json Web Service interface Analyse/infer data dependencies Generic utilities Standard email routine -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Wjhonson Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 8:08 AM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] Code Collaboration Never invite Tony to give a one minute speech ! Tony you told us how you ported Pickwiki to Mediwiki, without giving a link. Give the link, right here, where five hundred people are listening. -Original Message- From: Tony Gravagno 3xk547...@sneakemail.com To: u2-users u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Sat, Nov 19, 2011 12:14 am Subject: Re: [U2] Code Collaboration I originally wrote my notes for a prior post but noticed that both Ian and Rex weighed in here, so I will as well. Will, please reference my notes earlier. 1) I ported Pickwiki to MediaWiki, and provided a link to a prototype which I could complete if we saw some significant community interest. Absolutely no one but Ian, Rex, and I have expressed any interest in commenting on that MediaWiki implementation. This deafening message of silence is being heard here loud n clear. 2) A quick google for mediawiki notifications returns lots of hits, but I'll save you the pain and tell you that MediaWiki includes email notifications by default. So, while I'd love to say hey, we already have what you want, c'mon down! the problem remains that few other people would use the same resource. As we've seen in this thread, there are links to SourceForge, Github, (both of which DO have email notifications) and others, but everyone wants the community to use Their favorite or they'll walk away. Anyone who doesn't have a favorite seems completely disinterested (OK OK Will, You are not disinterested...). That's what I blogged about and a few people have responded in agreement. I'd really really like to help build another collaboration site, and it can be done quite quickly. But the questions of motivation and interest Must be addressed before we create yet another site that's doomed to die of loneliness. Personally I'd also like to see people just use PickWiki for a while. It's not perfect but it works. Ask the questions and Ian, Rex, and I can help to answer them. Email me if you don't know what else to do. (t...@removethispleasenebula-rnd.com) Let's grow out of that resource. When that happens I'm sure more people would be inclined to take requests and build something suitable. But we're never going to get something that's perfect for everyone. Any resource is going to be some percentage, 50, 70, 94.37% of what each person wants. For this community I'm afraid we have a if it doesn't do This then I won't use it at all mentality - and in many cases This is already possible but people walk anyway without asking the question or waiting for an answer. Go figure. As an example of that, Will, google for web page change notifications, select one of the free services, and provide your email address and a PickWiki webpage reference. THERE is your notification! And if we complete the PickWiki migration to MediaWiki it will be built-in. Next question please! As another example of how even a hugely popular CMS can still be inadequate: http://ilikestuffblog.com/2011/07/14/github-notifications-suck/ Point
Re: [U2] Code Collaboration
From: Wjhonson It exists So that's two people who mention something without giving any link TO it. Makes you wonder why no one visits it!! Will, I'm reminded why I don't get into forum discussions with you - you don't read information that's provided. In the name of brevity here (Never invite Tony to give a one minute speech !) I had taken my forum posting and moved it out to my blog. In that blog I have a link to the wiki prototype. With apologies, I didn't post the link here as I thought. But if you had visited the blog which I created specifically to respond to your points, you would have found the MediaWiki prototype replacement for PickWiki. removethisNebula-RnD.com/blog/tech/mv/2011/11/mvcollaboration.htm l But beating on the same drum, does github have email subscription notifications of pages you are watching (but to which you have not contributed) ? If not, then it's the same old problem. You have to go to it, to even remember that it's there. Response 1, I refer again to: http://ilikestuffblog.com/2011/07/14/github-notifications-suck/ Response 2, see comment in my last note: Nothing is perfect. Join millions of people who deal with that concept every day. Response 3: (again) you can get notifications by other means. I disagree that people will not use a wiki to contribute code changes. Disagree, but here's the change log showing activity over the last year: http://www.pickwiki.com/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?RecentChanges Last month you yourself added a link to a page that doesn't exist. (Thank you for that valuable resource.) Recent notes from people here, and the log, confirm that almost no one ever contributes updates to existing code at PickWiki. There are notes on the wiki about how to use the site, and people eager and easily available to help. The site is just not used for collaboration though it's available for anyone who wants it. No, it's not great, but Ian didn't originally intend it to be a collaboration site when he created it ... it just became a defacto repository. If we get significant demand for improving the resource for real collaboration, a few of us here will be eager to do it. T ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Code Collaboration
Let me ask you this. How many people read your blog, how many read this forum. Would it not be better, if you want people to come to the MediaWiki install to post a link right here Rather than make them go to your blog just to find out where it is. It seems rather tortuous. -Original Message- From: Tony Gravagno 3xk547...@sneakemail.com To: u2-users u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Sat, Nov 19, 2011 12:59 pm Subject: Re: [U2] Code Collaboration From: Wjhonson It exists So that's two people who mention something without giving any link TO it. Makes you wonder why no one visits it!! Will, I'm reminded why I don't get into forum discussions with you - you don't read information that's provided. In the name of brevity here (Never invite Tony to give a one minute speech !) I had taken my forum posting and moved it out to my blog. In that blog I have a link to the wiki prototype. With apologies, I didn't post the link here as I thought. But if you had visited the blog which I created specifically to respond to your points, you would have found the MediaWiki prototype replacement for PickWiki. removethisNebula-RnD.com/blog/tech/mv/2011/11/mvcollaboration.htm l But beating on the same drum, does github have email subscription notifications of pages you are watching (but to which you have not contributed) ? If not, then it's the same old problem. You have to go to it, to even remember that it's there. Response 1, I refer again to: http://ilikestuffblog.com/2011/07/14/github-notifications-suck/ Response 2, see comment in my last note: Nothing is perfect. Join millions of people who deal with that concept every day. Response 3: (again) you can get notifications by other means. I disagree that people will not use a wiki to contribute code changes. Disagree, but here's the change log showing activity over the last year: http://www.pickwiki.com/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?RecentChanges Last month you yourself added a link to a page that doesn't exist. (Thank you for that valuable resource.) Recent notes from people here, and the log, confirm that almost no one ever contributes updates to existing code at PickWiki. There are notes on the wiki about how to use the site, and people eager and easily available to help. The site is just not used for collaboration though it's available for anyone who wants it. No, it's not great, but Ian didn't originally intend it to be a collaboration site when he created it ... it just became a defacto repository. If we get significant demand for improving the resource for real collaboration, a few of us here will be eager to do it. T ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Code Collaboration
http://nebula-rnd.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=Special:AllPages I hope you have some kind of spam control on the install It doesn't come natively with one, as I've learned after 2 or 4 thousand vandalisms -Original Message- From: Tony Gravagno 3xk547...@sneakemail.com To: u2-users u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Sat, Nov 19, 2011 12:59 pm Subject: Re: [U2] Code Collaboration From: Wjhonson It exists So that's two people who mention something without giving any link TO it. Makes you wonder why no one visits it!! Will, I'm reminded why I don't get into forum discussions with you - you don't read information that's provided. In the name of brevity here (Never invite Tony to give a one minute speech !) I had taken my forum posting and moved it out to my blog. In that blog I have a link to the wiki prototype. With apologies, I didn't post the link here as I thought. But if you had visited the blog which I created specifically to respond to your points, you would have found the MediaWiki prototype replacement for PickWiki. removethisNebula-RnD.com/blog/tech/mv/2011/11/mvcollaboration.htm l But beating on the same drum, does github have email subscription notifications of pages you are watching (but to which you have not contributed) ? If not, then it's the same old problem. You have to go to it, to even remember that it's there. Response 1, I refer again to: http://ilikestuffblog.com/2011/07/14/github-notifications-suck/ Response 2, see comment in my last note: Nothing is perfect. Join millions of people who deal with that concept every day. Response 3: (again) you can get notifications by other means. I disagree that people will not use a wiki to contribute code changes. Disagree, but here's the change log showing activity over the last year: http://www.pickwiki.com/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?RecentChanges Last month you yourself added a link to a page that doesn't exist. (Thank you for that valuable resource.) Recent notes from people here, and the log, confirm that almost no one ever contributes updates to existing code at PickWiki. There are notes on the wiki about how to use the site, and people eager and easily available to help. The site is just not used for collaboration though it's available for anyone who wants it. No, it's not great, but Ian didn't originally intend it to be a collaboration site when he created it ... it just became a defacto repository. If we get significant demand for improving the resource for real collaboration, a few of us here will be eager to do it. T ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Code Collaboration
From: Wjhonson I hope you have some kind of spam control on the install It doesn't come natively with one, as I've learned after 2 or 4 thousand vandalisms Well dude, I haven't been concerned about spam from this vector for the last 2 years. But now that you've broadcast a direct link to a prototype site in a group that gets regularly harvested by spammers, yeah, now I'm concerned. You took it upon yourself to inflict what you know and believe will be vandalism on a resource that you know is unprotected? Seriously man, you need to up the level of professionalism. The demo has been withdrawn until we get some community consensus on the media topic. Thank you once again Mr Johnson for the finesse with which you approach these matters. And with that, I'll bow out of this thread. T ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Code Collaboration
Uh no. I did not say I know it's unprotected. I said that MediaWiki doesn't natively come with spam protection. I run my own copy as you may know, so I've had to figure out how to deal with the spam. Any solution we use is going to need to be publicly known. World wide public, not just a few in-people. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Code Collaboration [ad]
I am aware. I do like your product. On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 8:24 AM, Susan Joslyn sjos...@sjplus.com wrote: Hi Steve, Just in case you didn't know -- PRC does all of that. J Regards, Susan Joslyn PRC - IT Governance for U2 Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 17:13:31 -0500 From: Steve Romanow slestak...@gmail.com To: U2 Users List u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] Code Collaboration Message-ID: Something I have long desired is diff tool for mv records (that will use standard diff/patch output) so it can integrate with other tools. Maybe a packager for SB+ A diff tool for SB+ that understand what records make up an SB+ object. I started some thinking this direction on a sourceforge project, but got busy on many other things. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Code Collaboration
So, I thought what the original poster was getting at was: 1) Create a documentation/wiki/example site 2) Make it searchable 3) Have useful examples that make sense to everyone 4) Also post the vendor/var docs 5) Collaborate on ideas (like we do here) Maybe you guys are talking about something else... Github, svn, cvs, PRC and all those are great tools, but, they probably aren't going to create the Wikipedia of the MV world. The above can be done, but, it needs to become a living/breathing thing that gets updated a lot, otherwise, folks won't use it. Hence the challenge- making it a living/breathing thing. I know this kind of thing has been tried, and is being tried... but there probably isn't enough flag waving and marketing to keep it going. Or people create something, and try to make it subscription based, which in this day and time is never going to work with something like the above. Some of the things I know about are: http://www.nuwiki.com/cgi-bin/nuwiki.cgi?homeproject=nuwiki http://www.keyally.com/prdb/universe/basic_tree_all.html http://www.pickwiki.com/cgi-bin/wiki.pl Anyway, I'd like to help with something like that. I'm just not sure at my stage in life, that I have the time to spearhead it and become the chief Architect of something like that. On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 6:05 PM, Wjhonson wjhon...@aol.com wrote: Personally I respond more immediately when something comes at me. Would it not be possible to set up a mailing list for any changes to Incubator code? So all users on that list get emailed when a change is made? I think this would propel both use of the code, and smisuse/s enhancement. -Original Message- From: Brian Leach br...@brianleach.co.uk To: U2 Users List u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Thu, Nov 17, 2011 2:55 pm Subject: Re: [U2] Code Collaboration Mecki Thats why the board launched the Incubator project early this year. The intent s for this to become a repository of useful working examples of using the echnology. But I don't have the time to write those all myself and we have been rying to pursuade the community to get involved. Brian ent from my ASUS Eee Pad Mecki Foerthmann mec...@gmx.net wrote: I think a major problem is the lack of training/documentation. Great that there are all these new possibilities, but if you have to figure everything out yourself it becomes very difficult to keep up with the technology. A lot of VARs (especially ours) are no help if you get the feeling they know even less then you do. It is very frustrating if the business asks, 'can we do that?' and you can only answer, 'yes, I know it's possible but I don't know how to make it work.' And how am I to show the young guys all the flash things I have seen in demos or heard about here if I can't get them to work myself? On 17/11/2011 20:55, David Jordan wrote: The U2UG board has been discussing with Rocket how to encourage excitement hat U2 is not legacy but is a technology leader. I was at a presentation of a 2 VAR and they demonstrated product that would be indistinguishable from any ther player in open systems, Service architecture, interoperability, web ntefaces, etc. How do we get this across to the market. With collaboration, we need to first excite. How do we excite people in U2 echnology. Is it looking at a major enhancement of the BASIC programming anguage or a new one within U2. What other things do we look at. Currently young programmers are excited by web technology's, mobile apps, the exy stuff. They are not interested in the backend, whether Oracle RDBMS, SQL erver or U2. This is a problem across the industry. The board of the user group are interested in areas to look at and how to reate infrastructure to make this happen. If we can reignite excitement in he product and create a place for collaboration where that excitement can be ut to good use then I believe we can achieve success. However our success epends on a group of people not a few individuals. If this is to occur, it is ime for people to become involved in shaping a future. Regards David Jordan VP U2UG ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users __ 2-Users mailing list 2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org ttp://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users -- John Thompson ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Code Collaboration
As the OP, I like the idea of a wiki, provided it can either use straight HTML, use MediaWiki markup (which is slightly different), or use a WYSIWIG like sites.google.com or pbwiki uses. I find that only a few of these have gained sufficient traction that most gearheads know how to use them, the other competitors are just more headaches. Make it searchable. Sure. I assume that any web pages are searchable. You have to actively make something not searchable AFAIK. Useful examples - hopefully. Make sense to everyone - probably not as possible. But anything that doesn't make sense, you'd be able to markup I didn't address docs, but sure why not. Collaborate - that's the main point of my message really. To find a way to collaborate that is more immediate, and more used that PickWiki which seems very cob-webby to me. -Original Message- From: John Thompson jthompson...@gmail.com To: U2 Users List u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Fri, Nov 18, 2011 8:46 am Subject: Re: [U2] Code Collaboration So, I thought what the original poster was getting at was: 1) Create a documentation/wiki/example site ) Make it searchable ) Have useful examples that make sense to everyone ) Also post the vendor/var docs ) Collaborate on ideas (like we do here) Maybe you guys are talking about something else... Github, svn, cvs, PRC and all those are great tools, but, they probably ren't going to create the Wikipedia of the MV world. The above can be done, but, it needs to become a living/breathing thing hat gets updated a lot, otherwise, folks won't use it. Hence the hallenge- making it a living/breathing thing. I know this kind of thing has been tried, and is being tried... but there robably isn't enough flag waving and marketing to keep it going. Or people create something, and try to make it subscription based, which in his day and time is never going to work with something like the above. Some of the things I know about are: http://www.nuwiki.com/cgi-bin/nuwiki.cgi?homeproject=nuwiki ttp://www.keyally.com/prdb/universe/basic_tree_all.html ttp://www.pickwiki.com/cgi-bin/wiki.pl Anyway, I'd like to help with something like that. I'm just not sure at my tage in life, that I have the time to spearhead it and become the chief Architect of something like that. On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 6:05 PM, Wjhonson wjhon...@aol.com wrote: Personally I respond more immediately when something comes at me. Would it not be possible to set up a mailing list for any changes to Incubator code? So all users on that list get emailed when a change is made? I think this would propel both use of the code, and smisuse/s enhancement. -Original Message- From: Brian Leach br...@brianleach.co.uk To: U2 Users List u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Thu, Nov 17, 2011 2:55 pm Subject: Re: [U2] Code Collaboration Mecki Thats why the board launched the Incubator project early this year. The intent s for this to become a repository of useful working examples of using the echnology. But I don't have the time to write those all myself and we have been rying to pursuade the community to get involved. Brian ent from my ASUS Eee Pad Mecki Foerthmann mec...@gmx.net wrote: I think a major problem is the lack of training/documentation. Great that there are all these new possibilities, but if you have to figure everything out yourself it becomes very difficult to keep up with the technology. A lot of VARs (especially ours) are no help if you get the feeling they know even less then you do. It is very frustrating if the business asks, 'can we do that?' and you can only answer, 'yes, I know it's possible but I don't know how to make it work.' And how am I to show the young guys all the flash things I have seen in demos or heard about here if I can't get them to work myself? On 17/11/2011 20:55, David Jordan wrote: The U2UG board has been discussing with Rocket how to encourage excitement hat U2 is not legacy but is a technology leader. I was at a presentation of a 2 VAR and they demonstrated product that would be indistinguishable from any ther player in open systems, Service architecture, interoperability, web ntefaces, etc. How do we get this across to the market. With collaboration, we need to first excite. How do we excite people in U2 echnology. Is it looking at a major enhancement of the BASIC programming anguage or a new one within U2. What other things do we look at. Currently young programmers are excited by web technology's, mobile apps, the exy stuff. They are not interested in the backend, whether Oracle RDBMS, SQL erver or U2. This is a problem across the industry. The board of the user group are interested in areas to look at and how to reate infrastructure to make this happen. If we can reignite excitement in he product and create a place for collaboration where that excitement can be ut to good use then I believe we can achieve success
Re: [U2] Code Collaboration
In order to realize this vision, does every solution have to be implemented in PICK? If the goal is to make our development tasks more efficient it is making sure the labor that one of us puts in is not reproduced by another, i.e. Pick syntax files for various tools. The collaboration point whether it is pickwiki or another, does not have to host the code, but pointers to the places where the resource can be maintained properly. An example is the MAKEXML program on the wiki. I have used that many times and I seriously appreciate ECL and KRJ for making it available. Is it perfect, not really, every time I use it, I get the docstring twice. The wiki is not the way to communicate that it needs a patch. If I did (which I should) fix my copy, who do I communicate it to? We also need to let people know under what license we post the code under. Can I put MAKEXML up on my github and patch it, giving attribution to ECL and KRJ? On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 12:04 PM, Wjhonson wjhon...@aol.com wrote: As the OP, I like the idea of a wiki, provided it can either use straight HTML, use MediaWiki markup (which is slightly different), or use a WYSIWIG like sites.google.com or pbwiki uses. I find that only a few of these have gained sufficient traction that most gearheads know how to use them, the other competitors are just more headaches. Make it searchable. Sure. I assume that any web pages are searchable. You have to actively make something not searchable AFAIK. Useful examples - hopefully. Make sense to everyone - probably not as possible. But anything that doesn't make sense, you'd be able to markup I didn't address docs, but sure why not. Collaborate - that's the main point of my message really. To find a way to collaborate that is more immediate, and more used that PickWiki which seems very cob-webby to me. -Original Message- From: John Thompson jthompson...@gmail.com To: U2 Users List u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Fri, Nov 18, 2011 8:46 am Subject: Re: [U2] Code Collaboration So, I thought what the original poster was getting at was: 1) Create a documentation/wiki/example site ) Make it searchable ) Have useful examples that make sense to everyone ) Also post the vendor/var docs ) Collaborate on ideas (like we do here) Maybe you guys are talking about something else... Github, svn, cvs, PRC and all those are great tools, but, they probably ren't going to create the Wikipedia of the MV world. The above can be done, but, it needs to become a living/breathing thing hat gets updated a lot, otherwise, folks won't use it. Hence the hallenge- making it a living/breathing thing. I know this kind of thing has been tried, and is being tried... but there robably isn't enough flag waving and marketing to keep it going. Or people create something, and try to make it subscription based, which in his day and time is never going to work with something like the above. Some of the things I know about are: http://www.nuwiki.com/cgi-bin/nuwiki.cgi?homeproject=nuwiki ttp://www.keyally.com/prdb/universe/basic_tree_all.html ttp://www.pickwiki.com/cgi-bin/wiki.pl Anyway, I'd like to help with something like that. I'm just not sure at my tage in life, that I have the time to spearhead it and become the chief Architect of something like that. On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 6:05 PM, Wjhonson wjhon...@aol.com wrote: Personally I respond more immediately when something comes at me. Would it not be possible to set up a mailing list for any changes to Incubator code? So all users on that list get emailed when a change is made? I think this would propel both use of the code, and smisuse/s enhancement. -Original Message- From: Brian Leach br...@brianleach.co.uk To: U2 Users List u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Thu, Nov 17, 2011 2:55 pm Subject: Re: [U2] Code Collaboration Mecki Thats why the board launched the Incubator project early this year. The intent s for this to become a repository of useful working examples of using the echnology. But I don't have the time to write those all myself and we have been rying to pursuade the community to get involved. Brian ent from my ASUS Eee Pad Mecki Foerthmann mec...@gmx.net wrote: I think a major problem is the lack of training/documentation. Great that there are all these new possibilities, but if you have to figure everything out yourself it becomes very difficult to keep up with the technology. A lot of VARs (especially ours) are no help if you get the feeling they know even less then you do. It is very frustrating if the business asks, 'can we do that?' and you can only answer, 'yes, I know it's possible but I don't know how to make it work.' And how am I to show the young guys all the flash things I have seen in demos or heard about here if I can't get them to work myself? On 17/11/2011 20:55, David Jordan wrote: The U2UG board has
Re: [U2] Code Collaboration
I will personally pay for a business bronze github subscription to help set this up. We need a small handful of people who are willing to work with setting this up properly as well as people who already have tools worthy of being shared to email those people either permission to them in the repository. Steve Will, would you be willing to be involved? Anyone who is can email me @ danmcg...@gmail.com and I will set it up this weekend then email out the information to get this started. Once people are committed we can work out appropriate licensing info, etc. Regards, Dan -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Steve Romanow Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 10:16 AM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] Code Collaboration In order to realize this vision, does every solution have to be implemented in PICK? If the goal is to make our development tasks more efficient it is making sure the labor that one of us puts in is not reproduced by another, i.e. Pick syntax files for various tools. The collaboration point whether it is pickwiki or another, does not have to host the code, but pointers to the places where the resource can be maintained properly. An example is the MAKEXML program on the wiki. I have used that many times and I seriously appreciate ECL and KRJ for making it available. Is it perfect, not really, every time I use it, I get the docstring twice. The wiki is not the way to communicate that it needs a patch. If I did (which I should) fix my copy, who do I communicate it to? We also need to let people know under what license we post the code under. Can I put MAKEXML up on my github and patch it, giving attribution to ECL and KRJ? On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 12:04 PM, Wjhonson wjhon...@aol.com wrote: As the OP, I like the idea of a wiki, provided it can either use straight HTML, use MediaWiki markup (which is slightly different), or use a WYSIWIG like sites.google.com or pbwiki uses. I find that only a few of these have gained sufficient traction that most gearheads know how to use them, the other competitors are just more headaches. Make it searchable. Sure. I assume that any web pages are searchable. You have to actively make something not searchable AFAIK. Useful examples - hopefully. Make sense to everyone - probably not as possible. But anything that doesn't make sense, you'd be able to markup I didn't address docs, but sure why not. Collaborate - that's the main point of my message really. To find a way to collaborate that is more immediate, and more used that PickWiki which seems very cob-webby to me. -Original Message- From: John Thompson jthompson...@gmail.com To: U2 Users List u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Fri, Nov 18, 2011 8:46 am Subject: Re: [U2] Code Collaboration So, I thought what the original poster was getting at was: 1) Create a documentation/wiki/example site ) Make it searchable ) Have useful examples that make sense to everyone ) Also post the vendor/var docs ) Collaborate on ideas (like we do here) Maybe you guys are talking about something else... Github, svn, cvs, PRC and all those are great tools, but, they probably ren't going to create the Wikipedia of the MV world. The above can be done, but, it needs to become a living/breathing thing hat gets updated a lot, otherwise, folks won't use it. Hence the hallenge- making it a living/breathing thing. I know this kind of thing has been tried, and is being tried... but there robably isn't enough flag waving and marketing to keep it going. Or people create something, and try to make it subscription based, which in his day and time is never going to work with something like the above. Some of the things I know about are: http://www.nuwiki.com/cgi-bin/nuwiki.cgi?homeproject=nuwiki ttp://www.keyally.com/prdb/universe/basic_tree_all.html ttp://www.pickwiki.com/cgi-bin/wiki.pl Anyway, I'd like to help with something like that. I'm just not sure at my tage in life, that I have the time to spearhead it and become the chief Architect of something like that. On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 6:05 PM, Wjhonson wjhon...@aol.com wrote: Personally I respond more immediately when something comes at me. Would it not be possible to set up a mailing list for any changes to Incubator code? So all users on that list get emailed when a change is made? I think this would propel both use of the code, and smisuse/s enhancement. -Original Message- From: Brian Leach br...@brianleach.co.uk To: U2 Users List u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Thu, Nov 17, 2011 2:55 pm Subject: Re: [U2] Code Collaboration Mecki Thats why the board launched the Incubator project early this year. The intent s for this to become a repository of useful working examples of using the echnology. But I don't have the time to write
Re: [U2] Code Collaboration
Actually, I completely missed the free open-source package. If it isn't obvious, I'm a SF.net/SVN users :) -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Daniel McGrath Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 10:39 AM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] Code Collaboration I will personally pay for a business bronze github subscription to help set this up. We need a small handful of people who are willing to work with setting this up properly as well as people who already have tools worthy of being shared to email those people either permission to them in the repository. Steve Will, would you be willing to be involved? Anyone who is can email me @ danmcg...@gmail.com and I will set it up this weekend then email out the information to get this started. Once people are committed we can work out appropriate licensing info, etc. Regards, Dan -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Steve Romanow Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 10:16 AM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] Code Collaboration In order to realize this vision, does every solution have to be implemented in PICK? If the goal is to make our development tasks more efficient it is making sure the labor that one of us puts in is not reproduced by another, i.e. Pick syntax files for various tools. The collaboration point whether it is pickwiki or another, does not have to host the code, but pointers to the places where the resource can be maintained properly. An example is the MAKEXML program on the wiki. I have used that many times and I seriously appreciate ECL and KRJ for making it available. Is it perfect, not really, every time I use it, I get the docstring twice. The wiki is not the way to communicate that it needs a patch. If I did (which I should) fix my copy, who do I communicate it to? We also need to let people know under what license we post the code under. Can I put MAKEXML up on my github and patch it, giving attribution to ECL and KRJ? On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 12:04 PM, Wjhonson wjhon...@aol.com wrote: As the OP, I like the idea of a wiki, provided it can either use straight HTML, use MediaWiki markup (which is slightly different), or use a WYSIWIG like sites.google.com or pbwiki uses. I find that only a few of these have gained sufficient traction that most gearheads know how to use them, the other competitors are just more headaches. Make it searchable. Sure. I assume that any web pages are searchable. You have to actively make something not searchable AFAIK. Useful examples - hopefully. Make sense to everyone - probably not as possible. But anything that doesn't make sense, you'd be able to markup I didn't address docs, but sure why not. Collaborate - that's the main point of my message really. To find a way to collaborate that is more immediate, and more used that PickWiki which seems very cob-webby to me. -Original Message- From: John Thompson jthompson...@gmail.com To: U2 Users List u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Fri, Nov 18, 2011 8:46 am Subject: Re: [U2] Code Collaboration So, I thought what the original poster was getting at was: 1) Create a documentation/wiki/example site ) Make it searchable ) Have useful examples that make sense to everyone ) Also post the vendor/var docs ) Collaborate on ideas (like we do here) Maybe you guys are talking about something else... Github, svn, cvs, PRC and all those are great tools, but, they probably ren't going to create the Wikipedia of the MV world. The above can be done, but, it needs to become a living/breathing thing hat gets updated a lot, otherwise, folks won't use it. Hence the hallenge- making it a living/breathing thing. I know this kind of thing has been tried, and is being tried... but there robably isn't enough flag waving and marketing to keep it going. Or people create something, and try to make it subscription based, which in his day and time is never going to work with something like the above. Some of the things I know about are: http://www.nuwiki.com/cgi-bin/nuwiki.cgi?homeproject=nuwiki ttp://www.keyally.com/prdb/universe/basic_tree_all.html ttp://www.pickwiki.com/cgi-bin/wiki.pl Anyway, I'd like to help with something like that. I'm just not sure at my tage in life, that I have the time to spearhead it and become the chief Architect of something like that. On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 6:05 PM, Wjhonson wjhon...@aol.com wrote: Personally I respond more immediately when something comes at me. Would it not be possible to set up a mailing list for any changes to Incubator code? So all users on that list get emailed when a change is made? I think this would propel both use of the code, and smisuse/s enhancement. -Original Message- From: Brian Leach br
Re: [U2] Code Collaboration
I will only be involved if there is a way to subscribe to changes, so they come at me, instead of me needing to go to them. -Original Message- From: Daniel McGrath dmcgr...@rocketsoftware.com To: U2 Users List u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Fri, Nov 18, 2011 9:39 am Subject: Re: [U2] Code Collaboration I will personally pay for a business bronze github subscription to help set this p. We need a small handful of people who are willing to work with setting this up roperly as well as people who already have tools worthy of being shared to mail those people either permission to them in the repository. Steve Will, would you be willing to be involved? Anyone who is can email me @ anmcg...@gmail.com and I will set it up this weekend then email out the nformation to get this started. Once people are committed we can work out appropriate licensing info, etc. Regards, an -Original Message- rom: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] n Behalf Of Steve Romanow ent: Friday, November 18, 2011 10:16 AM o: U2 Users List ubject: Re: [U2] Code Collaboration In order to realize this vision, does every solution have to be implemented in ICK? If the goal is to make our development tasks more efficient it is making sure he labor that one of us puts in is not reproduced by another, i.e. Pick syntax iles for various tools. The collaboration point whether it is pickwiki or another, does not have to ost the code, but pointers to the places where the resource can be maintained roperly. An example is the MAKEXML program on the wiki. I have used that many times and seriously appreciate ECL and KRJ for making it available. s it perfect, not really, every time I use it, I get the docstring twice. The iki is not the way to communicate that it needs a patch. f I did (which I should) fix my copy, who do I communicate it to? We also need o let people know under what license we post the code under. Can I put MAKEXML p on my github and patch it, giving attribution to ECL and KRJ? On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 12:04 PM, Wjhonson wjhon...@aol.com wrote: As the OP, I like the idea of a wiki, provided it can either use straight TML, use MediaWiki markup (which is slightly different), or use a WYSIWIG like ites.google.com or pbwiki uses. I find that only a few of these have gained ufficient traction that most gearheads know how to use them, the other ompetitors are just more headaches. Make it searchable. Sure. I assume that any web pages are searchable. You ave to actively make something not searchable AFAIK. Useful examples - hopefully. Make sense to everyone - probably not as possible. But anything that doesn't make sense, you'd be able to markup I didn't address docs, but sure why not. Collaborate - that's the main point of my message really. To find a way to ollaborate that is more immediate, and more used that PickWiki which seems very ob-webby to me. -Original Message- From: John Thompson jthompson...@gmail.com To: U2 Users List u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Fri, Nov 18, 2011 8:46 am Subject: Re: [U2] Code Collaboration So, I thought what the original poster was getting at was: 1) Create a documentation/wiki/example site ) Make it searchable ) Have useful examples that make sense to everyone ) Also post the vendor/var docs ) Collaborate on ideas (like we do here) Maybe you guys are talking about something else... Github, svn, cvs, PRC and all those are great tools, but, they probably ren't going to create the Wikipedia of the MV world. The above can be done, but, it needs to become a living/breathing thing hat gets updated a lot, otherwise, folks won't use it. Hence the hallenge- making it a living/breathing thing. I know this kind of thing has been tried, and is being tried... but there robably isn't enough flag waving and marketing to keep it going. Or people create something, and try to make it subscription based, which in his day and time is never going to work with something like the bove. Some of the things I know about are: http://www.nuwiki.com/cgi-bin/nuwiki.cgi?homeproject=nuwiki ttp://www.keyally.com/prdb/universe/basic_tree_all.html ttp://www.pickwiki.com/cgi-bin/wiki.pl Anyway, I'd like to help with something like that. I'm just not sure at my tage in life, that I have the time to spearhead it and become the chief Architect of something like that. On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 6:05 PM, Wjhonson wjhon...@aol.com wrote: Personally I respond more immediately when something comes at me. Would it not be possible to set up a mailing list for any changes to Incubator code? So all users on that list get emailed when a change is made? I think this would propel both use of the code, and smisuse/s enhancement. -Original Message- From: Brian Leach br...@brianleach.co.uk To: U2 Users List u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Thu, Nov 17
Re: [U2] Code Collaboration
'GitHub can notify you when people interact with your code' You have account settings to turn on/off exactly what you get notified about. Does that meet your requirements? -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Wjhonson Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 10:42 AM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] Code Collaboration I will only be involved if there is a way to subscribe to changes, so they come at me, instead of me needing to go to them. -Original Message- From: Daniel McGrath dmcgr...@rocketsoftware.com To: U2 Users List u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Fri, Nov 18, 2011 9:39 am Subject: Re: [U2] Code Collaboration I will personally pay for a business bronze github subscription to help set this p. We need a small handful of people who are willing to work with setting this up roperly as well as people who already have tools worthy of being shared to mail those people either permission to them in the repository. Steve Will, would you be willing to be involved? Anyone who is can email me @ anmcg...@gmail.com and I will set it up this weekend then email out the nformation to get this started. Once people are committed we can work out appropriate licensing info, etc. Regards, an -Original Message- rom: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] n Behalf Of Steve Romanow ent: Friday, November 18, 2011 10:16 AM o: U2 Users List ubject: Re: [U2] Code Collaboration In order to realize this vision, does every solution have to be implemented in ICK? If the goal is to make our development tasks more efficient it is making sure he labor that one of us puts in is not reproduced by another, i.e. Pick syntax iles for various tools. The collaboration point whether it is pickwiki or another, does not have to ost the code, but pointers to the places where the resource can be maintained roperly. An example is the MAKEXML program on the wiki. I have used that many times and seriously appreciate ECL and KRJ for making it available. s it perfect, not really, every time I use it, I get the docstring twice. The iki is not the way to communicate that it needs a patch. f I did (which I should) fix my copy, who do I communicate it to? We also need o let people know under what license we post the code under. Can I put MAKEXML p on my github and patch it, giving attribution to ECL and KRJ? On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 12:04 PM, Wjhonson wjhon...@aol.com wrote: As the OP, I like the idea of a wiki, provided it can either use straight TML, use MediaWiki markup (which is slightly different), or use a WYSIWIG like ites.google.com or pbwiki uses. I find that only a few of these have gained ufficient traction that most gearheads know how to use them, the other ompetitors are just more headaches. Make it searchable. Sure. I assume that any web pages are searchable. You ave to actively make something not searchable AFAIK. Useful examples - hopefully. Make sense to everyone - probably not as possible. But anything that doesn't make sense, you'd be able to markup I didn't address docs, but sure why not. Collaborate - that's the main point of my message really. To find a way to ollaborate that is more immediate, and more used that PickWiki which seems very ob-webby to me. -Original Message- From: John Thompson jthompson...@gmail.com To: U2 Users List u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Fri, Nov 18, 2011 8:46 am Subject: Re: [U2] Code Collaboration So, I thought what the original poster was getting at was: 1) Create a documentation/wiki/example site ) Make it searchable ) Have useful examples that make sense to everyone ) Also post the vendor/var docs ) Collaborate on ideas (like we do here) Maybe you guys are talking about something else... Github, svn, cvs, PRC and all those are great tools, but, they probably ren't going to create the Wikipedia of the MV world. The above can be done, but, it needs to become a living/breathing thing hat gets updated a lot, otherwise, folks won't use it. Hence the hallenge- making it a living/breathing thing. I know this kind of thing has been tried, and is being tried... but there robably isn't enough flag waving and marketing to keep it going. Or people create something, and try to make it subscription based, which in his day and time is never going to work with something like the bove. Some of the things I know about are: http://www.nuwiki.com/cgi-bin/nuwiki.cgi?homeproject=nuwiki ttp://www.keyally.com/prdb/universe/basic_tree_all.html ttp://www.pickwiki.com/cgi-bin/wiki.pl Anyway, I'd like to help with something like that. I'm just not sure at my tage in life, that I have the time to spearhead it and become the chief Architect of something like that. On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 6:05 PM, Wjhonson wjhon...@aol.com wrote: Personally I respond more
Re: [U2] Code Collaboration
Let's say you load a piece of code that does a great XML parsing, but I want to watch that code to get the next update from say... some other guy changing that code and republishing it right in the same spot. That's a subscription to a page change. But it's not *my* code, I didn't change it or load it. -Original Message- From: Daniel McGrath dmcgr...@rocketsoftware.com To: U2 Users List u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Fri, Nov 18, 2011 9:53 am Subject: Re: [U2] Code Collaboration 'GitHub can notify you when people interact with your code' You have account settings to turn on/off exactly what you get notified about. Does that meet your requirements? -Original Message- rom: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] n Behalf Of Wjhonson ent: Friday, November 18, 2011 10:42 AM o: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org ubject: Re: [U2] Code Collaboration I will only be involved if there is a way to subscribe to changes, so they come t me, instead of me needing to go to them. -Original Message- rom: Daniel McGrath dmcgr...@rocketsoftware.com o: U2 Users List u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org ent: Fri, Nov 18, 2011 9:39 am ubject: Re: [U2] Code Collaboration will personally pay for a business bronze github subscription to help set this . e need a small handful of people who are willing to work with setting this up operly as well as people who already have tools worthy of being shared to mail hose people either permission to them in the repository. teve Will, would you be willing to be involved? Anyone who is can email me @ nmcg...@gmail.com and I will set it up this weekend then email out the formation to get this started. nce people are committed we can work out appropriate licensing info, etc. egards, n Original Message- om: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] Behalf Of Steve Romanow nt: Friday, November 18, 2011 10:16 AM : U2 Users List bject: Re: [U2] Code Collaboration n order to realize this vision, does every solution have to be implemented in CK? f the goal is to make our development tasks more efficient it is making sure e labor that one of us puts in is not reproduced by another, i.e. Pick syntax les for various tools. he collaboration point whether it is pickwiki or another, does not have to st the code, but pointers to the places where the resource can be maintained operly. n example is the MAKEXML program on the wiki. I have used that many times and eriously appreciate ECL and KRJ for making it available. it perfect, not really, every time I use it, I get the docstring twice. The ki is not the way to communicate that it needs a patch. I did (which I should) fix my copy, who do I communicate it to? We also need let people know under what license we post the code under. Can I put MAKEXML on my github and patch it, giving attribution to ECL and KRJ? On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 12:04 PM, Wjhonson wjhon...@aol.com wrote: As the OP, I like the idea of a wiki, provided it can either use straight TML, se MediaWiki markup (which is slightly different), or use a WYSIWIG like tes.google.com or pbwiki uses. I find that only a few of these have gained fficient traction that most gearheads know how to use them, the other mpetitors are just more headaches. Make it searchable. Sure. I assume that any web pages are searchable. You ve to actively make something not searchable AFAIK. Useful examples - hopefully. Make sense to everyone - probably not as ossible. But anything that doesn't make sense, you'd be able to markup I didn't address docs, but sure why not. Collaborate - that's the main point of my message really. To find a way to llaborate that is more immediate, and more used that PickWiki which seems very b-webby to me. -Original Message- From: John Thompson jthompson...@gmail.com To: U2 Users List u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Fri, Nov 18, 2011 8:46 am Subject: Re: [U2] Code Collaboration So, I thought what the original poster was getting at was: 1) Create a documentation/wiki/example site ) Make it searchable ) Have useful examples that make sense to everyone ) Also post the vendor/var docs ) Collaborate on ideas (like we do here) Maybe you guys are talking about omething else... Github, svn, cvs, PRC and all those are great tools, but, they probably ren't oing to create the Wikipedia of the MV world. The above can be done, but, it needs to become a living/breathing thing hat ets updated a lot, otherwise, folks won't use it. Hence the hallenge- making it a living/breathing thing. I know this kind of thing has been tried, and is being tried... but there obably isn't enough flag waving and marketing to keep it going. Or people create something, and try to make it subscription based, which in is day and time is never going to work with something like the bove. Some of the things I know about are: http://www.nuwiki.com
Re: [U2] Code Collaboration
I wonder if everyone should host where they feel comfortable. The common place we congregate should just have pointers out. The main point I was making is _any_ wiki is not the right place to share _the_ code. On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 1:05 PM, Wjhonson wjhon...@aol.com wrote: Let's say you load a piece of code that does a great XML parsing, but I want to watch that code to get the next update from say... some other guy changing that code and republishing it right in the same spot. That's a subscription to a page change. But it's not *my* code, I didn't change it or load it. -Original Message- From: Daniel McGrath dmcgr...@rocketsoftware.com To: U2 Users List u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Fri, Nov 18, 2011 9:53 am Subject: Re: [U2] Code Collaboration 'GitHub can notify you when people interact with your code' You have account settings to turn on/off exactly what you get notified about. Does that meet your requirements? -Original Message- rom: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] n Behalf Of Wjhonson ent: Friday, November 18, 2011 10:42 AM o: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org ubject: Re: [U2] Code Collaboration I will only be involved if there is a way to subscribe to changes, so they come t me, instead of me needing to go to them. -Original Message- rom: Daniel McGrath dmcgr...@rocketsoftware.com o: U2 Users List u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org ent: Fri, Nov 18, 2011 9:39 am ubject: Re: [U2] Code Collaboration will personally pay for a business bronze github subscription to help set this . e need a small handful of people who are willing to work with setting this up operly as well as people who already have tools worthy of being shared to mail hose people either permission to them in the repository. teve Will, would you be willing to be involved? Anyone who is can email me @ nmcg...@gmail.com and I will set it up this weekend then email out the formation to get this started. nce people are committed we can work out appropriate licensing info, etc. egards, n Original Message- om: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] Behalf Of Steve Romanow nt: Friday, November 18, 2011 10:16 AM : U2 Users List bject: Re: [U2] Code Collaboration n order to realize this vision, does every solution have to be implemented in CK? f the goal is to make our development tasks more efficient it is making sure e labor that one of us puts in is not reproduced by another, i.e. Pick syntax les for various tools. he collaboration point whether it is pickwiki or another, does not have to st the code, but pointers to the places where the resource can be maintained operly. n example is the MAKEXML program on the wiki. I have used that many times and eriously appreciate ECL and KRJ for making it available. it perfect, not really, every time I use it, I get the docstring twice. The ki is not the way to communicate that it needs a patch. I did (which I should) fix my copy, who do I communicate it to? We also need let people know under what license we post the code under. Can I put MAKEXML on my github and patch it, giving attribution to ECL and KRJ? On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 12:04 PM, Wjhonson wjhon...@aol.com wrote: As the OP, I like the idea of a wiki, provided it can either use straight TML, se MediaWiki markup (which is slightly different), or use a WYSIWIG like tes.google.com or pbwiki uses. I find that only a few of these have gained fficient traction that most gearheads know how to use them, the other mpetitors are just more headaches. Make it searchable. Sure. I assume that any web pages are searchable. You ve to actively make something not searchable AFAIK. Useful examples - hopefully. Make sense to everyone - probably not as ossible. But anything that doesn't make sense, you'd be able to markup I didn't address docs, but sure why not. Collaborate - that's the main point of my message really. To find a way to llaborate that is more immediate, and more used that PickWiki which seems very b-webby to me. -Original Message- From: John Thompson jthompson...@gmail.com To: U2 Users List u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Fri, Nov 18, 2011 8:46 am Subject: Re: [U2] Code Collaboration So, I thought what the original poster was getting at was: 1) Create a documentation/wiki/example site ) Make it searchable ) Have useful examples that make sense to everyone ) Also post the vendor/var docs ) Collaborate on ideas (like we do here) Maybe you guys are talking about omething else... Github, svn, cvs, PRC and all those are great tools, but, they probably ren't oing to create the Wikipedia of the MV world. The above can be done, but, it needs to become a living/breathing thing hat ets updated a lot, otherwise, folks won't use it. Hence the hallenge- making it a living/breathing thing
Re: [U2] Code Collaboration
If it's just another PickWiki that's not a step forward in my opinion. We could just post code there. -Original Message- From: Steve Romanow slestak...@gmail.com To: U2 Users List u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Fri, Nov 18, 2011 10:34 am Subject: Re: [U2] Code Collaboration I wonder if everyone should host where they feel comfortable. The ommon place we congregate should just have pointers out. The main point I was making is _any_ wiki is not the right place to hare _the_ code. On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 1:05 PM, Wjhonson wjhon...@aol.com wrote: Let's say you load a piece of code that does a great XML parsing, but I want o watch that code to get the next update from say... some other guy changing hat code and republishing it right in the same spot. That's a subscription to a page change. But it's not *my* code, I didn't hange it or load it. -Original Message- From: Daniel McGrath dmcgr...@rocketsoftware.com To: U2 Users List u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Fri, Nov 18, 2011 9:53 am Subject: Re: [U2] Code Collaboration 'GitHub can notify you when people interact with your code' You have account settings to turn on/off exactly what you get notified about. Does that meet your requirements? -Original Message- rom: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] n Behalf Of Wjhonson ent: Friday, November 18, 2011 10:42 AM o: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org ubject: Re: [U2] Code Collaboration I will only be involved if there is a way to subscribe to changes, so they ome t me, instead of me needing to go to them. -Original Message- rom: Daniel McGrath dmcgr...@rocketsoftware.com o: U2 Users List u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org ent: Fri, Nov 18, 2011 9:39 am ubject: Re: [U2] Code Collaboration will personally pay for a business bronze github subscription to help set his . e need a small handful of people who are willing to work with setting this up operly as well as people who already have tools worthy of being shared to mail hose people either permission to them in the repository. teve Will, would you be willing to be involved? Anyone who is can email me @ nmcg...@gmail.com and I will set it up this weekend then email out the formation to get this started. nce people are committed we can work out appropriate licensing info, etc. egards, n Original Message- om: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] Behalf Of Steve Romanow nt: Friday, November 18, 2011 10:16 AM : U2 Users List bject: Re: [U2] Code Collaboration n order to realize this vision, does every solution have to be implemented in CK? f the goal is to make our development tasks more efficient it is making sure e labor that one of us puts in is not reproduced by another, i.e. Pick syntax les for various tools. he collaboration point whether it is pickwiki or another, does not have to st the code, but pointers to the places where the resource can be maintained operly. n example is the MAKEXML program on the wiki. I have used that many times and eriously appreciate ECL and KRJ for making it available. it perfect, not really, every time I use it, I get the docstring twice. The ki is not the way to communicate that it needs a patch. I did (which I should) fix my copy, who do I communicate it to? We also need let people know under what license we post the code under. Can I put MAKEXML on my github and patch it, giving attribution to ECL and KRJ? On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 12:04 PM, Wjhonson wjhon...@aol.com wrote: As the OP, I like the idea of a wiki, provided it can either use straight ML, se MediaWiki markup (which is slightly different), or use a WYSIWIG like tes.google.com or pbwiki uses. I find that only a few of these have gained fficient traction that most gearheads know how to use them, the other mpetitors are just more headaches. Make it searchable. Sure. I assume that any web pages are searchable. You ve to actively make something not searchable AFAIK. Useful examples - hopefully. Make sense to everyone - probably not as ossible. But anything that doesn't make sense, you'd be able to markup I didn't address docs, but sure why not. Collaborate - that's the main point of my message really. To find a way to llaborate that is more immediate, and more used that PickWiki which seems very b-webby to me. -Original Message- From: John Thompson jthompson...@gmail.com To: U2 Users List u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Fri, Nov 18, 2011 8:46 am Subject: Re: [U2] Code Collaboration So, I thought what the original poster was getting at was: 1) Create a documentation/wiki/example site ) Make it searchable ) Have useful examples that make sense to everyone ) Also post the vendor/var docs ) Collaborate on ideas (like we do here) Maybe you guys are talking about omething else... Github, svn, cvs, PRC and all those
Re: [U2] Code Collaboration
Github is pretty good for that, as well as bitbucket. Forks are cheap, and you can also set yourself as watching a repo. In my bitbucket u2-tools repo is a copy of ADD_XML_ELEMENT() which was from Gregor's UV space blog. I talked to him and he was ok with me putting it up there, but that is my modded copy to work with Unidata, not universe. Nearly all of the tools we have discussed offer an rss feed. On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 1:05 PM, Wjhonson wjhon...@aol.com wrote: Let's say you load a piece of code that does a great XML parsing, but I want to watch that code to get the next update from say... some other guy changing that code and republishing it right in the same spot. That's a subscription to a page change. But it's not *my* code, I didn't change it or load it. I am not sure how realistic it is for source code to be edited in wiki fashion. What about testing? Where do you file bugs or feature requests? ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Code Collaboration
There's a miscommunication here. I don't want a site where I have to go TO the site. I want the changes to come to me. Watching a github site, means you have to go to github. Rather, we should have a site where you can subscribe through email, to changes, so they come to your email box. -Original Message- From: Steve Romanow slestak...@gmail.com To: U2 Users List u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Fri, Nov 18, 2011 10:39 am Subject: Re: [U2] Code Collaboration Github is pretty good for that, as well as bitbucket. Forks are heap, and you can also set yourself as watching a repo. In my bitbucket u2-tools repo is a copy of ADD_XML_ELEMENT() which was rom Gregor's UV space blog. I talked to him and he was ok with me utting it up there, but that is my modded copy to work with Unidata, ot universe. Nearly all of the tools we have discussed offer an rss feed. On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 1:05 PM, Wjhonson wjhon...@aol.com wrote: Let's say you load a piece of code that does a great XML parsing, but I want o watch that code to get the next update from say... some other guy changing hat code and republishing it right in the same spot. That's a subscription to a page change. But it's not *my* code, I didn't hange it or load it. am not sure how realistic it is for source code to be edited in wiki ashion. What about testing? Where do you file bugs or feature equests? __ 2-Users mailing list 2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org ttp://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Code Collaboration
Does pickwiki bring changes to you? I get emails from GH and BB as well. I think we are going to have to agree to disagree. What I would love to see is the MV community join the rest of the worlds developers, and sharpen our skills. We are currently way too ingrown to attract new blood. Heck, even g+ group could be fun. On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 1:43 PM, Wjhonson wjhon...@aol.com wrote: There's a miscommunication here. I don't want a site where I have to go TO the site. I want the changes to come to me. Watching a github site, means you have to go to github. Rather, we should have a site where you can subscribe through email, to changes, so they come to your email box. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Code Collaboration
I'm sorry. I am going to continue doing what I do. Using any modern tool that I feel is helpful and/or potentially useful in my job. If anyone would like to collaborate, I'll be online, easy enough to find. Good luck everyone. On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 1:57 PM, Steve Romanow slestak...@gmail.com wrote: Does pickwiki bring changes to you? I get emails from GH and BB as well. I think we are going to have to agree to disagree. What I would love to see is the MV community join the rest of the worlds developers, and sharpen our skills. We are currently way too ingrown to attract new blood. Heck, even g+ group could be fun. On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 1:43 PM, Wjhonson wjhon...@aol.com wrote: There's a miscommunication here. I don't want a site where I have to go TO the site. I want the changes to come to me. Watching a github site, means you have to go to github. Rather, we should have a site where you can subscribe through email, to changes, so they come to your email box. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Code Collaboration
No it doesn't. That's the problem I see. -Original Message- From: Steve Romanow slestak...@gmail.com To: U2 Users List u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Fri, Nov 18, 2011 10:58 am Subject: Re: [U2] Code Collaboration Does pickwiki bring changes to you? I get emails from GH and BB as ell. I think we are going to have to agree to disagree. What I would love to see is the MV community join the rest of the orlds developers, and sharpen our skills. We are currently way too ngrown to attract new blood. Heck, even g+ group could be fun. n Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 1:43 PM, Wjhonson wjhon...@aol.com wrote: There's a miscommunication here. I don't want a site where I have to go TO the site. I want the changes to come to me. Watching a github site, means you have to go to github. Rather, we should have a site where you can subscribe through email, to hanges, so they come to your email box. __ 2-Users mailing list 2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org ttp://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Code Collaboration
What about Zoho? I have only used it once with a contractor and it seemed to work ok. -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Steve Romanow Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 1:58 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] Code Collaboration Does pickwiki bring changes to you? I get emails from GH and BB as well. I think we are going to have to agree to disagree. What I would love to see is the MV community join the rest of the worlds developers, and sharpen our skills. We are currently way too ingrown to attract new blood. Heck, even g+ group could be fun. On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 1:43 PM, Wjhonson wjhon...@aol.com wrote: There's a miscommunication here. I don't want a site where I have to go TO the site. I want the changes to come to me. Watching a github site, means you have to go to github. Rather, we should have a site where you can subscribe through email, to changes, so they come to your email box. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Code Collaboration
FYI - PickWiki does have an RSS feed. Also, have any of you considered Brian's U2 User wiki/website? The wiki has a WYSIWYG editor, and the website has forums. And the site may already have an RSS feed or email notifications. But let's face it, nobody's going to change or tweak your program code just because they can. If your code is useful to them, then they might download and use it. And in the slim chance they make an improvement that they think might make a difference to someone else's life, they might make the time to post their mod. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of software projects publicly available that no one takes any interest in -- why should a PICK project be any different? Sure, code snippets get discussed and rewritten here, but that's because it is a snippet, not a complete program. This is not a tool or convenience problem. Most people are simply not inspired to share what they know; those that are inspired are already sharing. On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 2:03 PM, Wjhonson wjhon...@aol.com wrote: No it (PickWiki) doesn't (bring changes to me). That's the problem I see. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Code Collaboration
Rex I have to disagree that no one's interested. I'm interested, and I think there are others who are as well. Whether or not we've all going to be interested in a new text editor, or a faster sort routine, or a BASIC tool to parse XML that remains to be seen. But the way we're going about it right now, to me, doesn't work. It's broken. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Code Collaboration
Rex Gozar wrote: But let's face it, nobody's going to change or tweak your program code just because they can. If your code is useful to them, then they might download and use it. snip ...This is not a tool or convenience problem. Most people are simply not inspired to share what they know; those that are inspired are already sharing. That's a realistic, if somewhat cynical view. It doesn't seem unreasonable for those who are inspired to give it a shot and see what happens. Personally, I think the question how best to collaborate on code is a solved problem: http://github.com. A wiki is not the complete answer to the question, though it can play a part. There have been many, many, attempts over the years (from BIX to usenet to U2users) to do a pick version of gnu. Maybe the time is finally right for it to work? Ian - IMPORTANT NOTICE: This message is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, you may not use, copy or disclose any information contained in the message. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender by reply e-mail and delete the message. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Code Collaboration
I wasn't saying that no one's interested, but rather those that are interested are already doing something to collaborate and contribute. You got your knol thing going, Tony has got his blog, Steve's got his GH and BB, and so on. A lack of tools isn't going to stop someone that's inspired to share. But I was saying that we need to set our expectations realistically. I don't expect the average PICK guy with his head down getting the job done is going to look up long enough to tweak my u2pipe program. rex On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 2:50 PM, Wjhonson wjhon...@aol.com wrote: Rex I have to disagree that no one's interested. I'm interested, and I think there are others who are as well. Whether or not we've all going to be interested in a new text editor, or a faster sort routine, or a BASIC tool to parse XML that remains to be seen. But the way we're going about it right now, to me, doesn't work. It's broken. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Code Collaboration
That's not collaboration though. It's contribution sure, but writing and blogging and so on, don't really invite tweaking. Something more along the line of a Google Groups, with embedded documents as well. Yes I might tweak your u2pipe program if I had any idea where it was AND if it sent me an email like Rex has just updated this program -Original Message- From: Rex Gozar rgo...@gmail.com To: U2 Users List u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Fri, Nov 18, 2011 12:38 pm Subject: Re: [U2] Code Collaboration I wasn't saying that no one's interested, but rather those that are nterested are already doing something to collaborate and contribute. ou got your knol thing going, Tony has got his blog, Steve's got is GH and BB, and so on. A lack of tools isn't going to stop someone hat's inspired to share. But I was saying that we need to set our expectations realistically. don't expect the average PICK guy with his head down getting the job one is going to look up long enough to tweak my u2pipe program. rex On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 2:50 PM, Wjhonson wjhon...@aol.com wrote: Rex I have to disagree that no one's interested. I'm interested, and I think here are others who are as well. Whether or not we've all going to be interested in a new text editor, or a aster sort routine, or a BASIC tool to parse XML that remains to be seen. But the way we're going about it right now, to me, doesn't work. It's broken. __ 2-Users mailing list 2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org ttp://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Code Collaboration
Collaborating just for the sake of collaborating is a dead end. So is setting up an infrastructure with the goal of simply encouraging collaboration. People need to be excited about the *end results* and potential of a project, and out of that group a tiny percentage will want to actively contribute. I don't think past collaboration projects died because of a lack of proper infrastructure; they died because they lacked a grandiose, targeted result. rex ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Code Collaboration
Rex, I completely agree. You can't just build a site and expect people to show up and enjoy it. However MV FOSS repositories have been created predicated on the idea that the internet has been around for a while and most developers should already understand the value of community collaboration, FOSS, etc. The grandiose, targeted result is high quality, free software for all of us to simplify our lives and help our bottom line (whatever that might mean). It's assumed people already get that. The one or two people trying to admin a FOSS repository shouldn't also be charged with educating people on the value of FOSS. Most people pretend to support FOSS but they don't get the free as in freedom part, nor the open source part, they are enamored with free as in beer. The message of the bazaar vs the cathedral has been around for a long time but Pick people just don't see it as applying to BASIC. Once again, it's a mindset of a community, not the fault or responsibility of people who do get it and who try to create resources to support others who also get it. To keep this all in context with this U2UG technical forum, I often wonder how many questions here could be eliminated or processed more quickly if only we could point to open source projects and documentation for examples, rather than answering every question like it was the first time it's been asked. Best, T From: Rex Gozar Collaborating just for the sake of collaborating is a dead end. So is setting up an infrastructure with the goal of simply encouraging collaboration. People need to be excited about the *end results* and potential of a project, and out of that group a tiny percentage will want to actively contribute. I don't think past collaboration projects died because of a lack of proper infrastructure; they died because they lacked a grandiose, targeted result. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Code Collaboration
Another need/want I have is a pygments [1] file for Unibasic. That was syntax hilighting works on all the webapps that use pygments (such as github, trac, wordpress). [1] http://pygments.org/ On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 2:11 PM, Steve Romanow slestak...@gmail.com wrote: I have some U2 related code on these two sites. https://bitbucket.org/slestak/u2-tools https://github.com/slestak/RocketUnidata On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 2:10 PM, Steve Romanow slestak...@gmail.com wrote: Github, SF.net, Bitbucket, etc are setup to allow team collaboration. For each project there are issue trackers, wiki, code browsing, etc. On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 2:02 PM, John Thompson jthompson...@gmail.com wrote: Ya know what I think the real problem is... Most of us have about 100 irons in the fire, and, we would all love to maintain/contribute, but, every time we start something, we realize, Oh crap, someone has to administer that Then once the poor soul administering it, gets busy, misses a few requests, etc... then the people contributing say, Oh well, that must not be maintained anymore, or that guy/gal must be busy. I think we can create something, the real problem is, finding folks with enough time/motivation/drive, etc. to monitor/maintain/administer it. Contributing is the easy part. Organizing, documenting, and making it presentable is the hard part. On top of that most programmers/technicians, are sucky documenters, or would rather not document at all, OR, they assume that you are as smart as they are, or were when they wrote something. So I'm for it, and I could devote some time to it here and there... But, we have to overcome the challenges I mentioned. Thats my two cents. On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 1:32 PM, Wjhonson wjhon...@aol.com wrote: The PickWiki is a place where code can be published, but I haven't seen even one case where code has been taken, enhanced, and put back. So it doesn't appear to be a good place for collaboration. If people however post code snippets here, or at comp.databases.pick there will be remarks and modifications within hours. Attempts at making Pick code collaboration projects have been mostly unsuccessful. Why? How can we create a true collaborative project and Would Anyone Come ? ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users -- John Thompson ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Code Collaboration
The U2UG board has been discussing with Rocket how to encourage excitement that U2 is not legacy but is a technology leader. I was at a presentation of a U2 VAR and they demonstrated product that would be indistinguishable from any other player in open systems, Service architecture, interoperability, web intefaces, etc. How do we get this across to the market. With collaboration, we need to first excite. How do we excite people in U2 technology. Is it looking at a major enhancement of the BASIC programming language or a new one within U2. What other things do we look at. Currently young programmers are excited by web technology's, mobile apps, the sexy stuff. They are not interested in the backend, whether Oracle RDBMS, SQL Server or U2. This is a problem across the industry. The board of the user group are interested in areas to look at and how to create infrastructure to make this happen. If we can reignite excitement in the product and create a place for collaboration where that excitement can be put to good use then I believe we can achieve success. However our success depends on a group of people not a few individuals. If this is to occur, it is time for people to become involved in shaping a future. Regards David Jordan VP U2UG ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Code Collaboration
I think a major problem is the lack of training/documentation. Great that there are all these new possibilities, but if you have to figure everything out yourself it becomes very difficult to keep up with the technology. A lot of VARs (especially ours) are no help if you get the feeling they know even less then you do. It is very frustrating if the business asks, 'can we do that?' and you can only answer, 'yes, I know it's possible but I don't know how to make it work.' And how am I to show the young guys all the flash things I have seen in demos or heard about here if I can't get them to work myself? On 17/11/2011 20:55, David Jordan wrote: The U2UG board has been discussing with Rocket how to encourage excitement that U2 is not legacy but is a technology leader. I was at a presentation of a U2 VAR and they demonstrated product that would be indistinguishable from any other player in open systems, Service architecture, interoperability, web intefaces, etc. How do we get this across to the market. With collaboration, we need to first excite. How do we excite people in U2 technology. Is it looking at a major enhancement of the BASIC programming language or a new one within U2. What other things do we look at. Currently young programmers are excited by web technology's, mobile apps, the sexy stuff. They are not interested in the backend, whether Oracle RDBMS, SQL Server or U2. This is a problem across the industry. The board of the user group are interested in areas to look at and how to create infrastructure to make this happen. If we can reignite excitement in the product and create a place for collaboration where that excitement can be put to good use then I believe we can achieve success. However our success depends on a group of people not a few individuals. If this is to occur, it is time for people to become involved in shaping a future. Regards David Jordan VP U2UG ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Code Collaboration
Mecki Thats why the board launched the Incubator project early this year. The intent is for this to become a repository of useful working examples of using the technology. But I don't have the time to write those all myself and we have been trying to pursuade the community to get involved. Brian Sent from my ASUS Eee Pad Mecki Foerthmann mec...@gmx.net wrote: I think a major problem is the lack of training/documentation. Great that there are all these new possibilities, but if you have to figure everything out yourself it becomes very difficult to keep up with the technology. A lot of VARs (especially ours) are no help if you get the feeling they know even less then you do. It is very frustrating if the business asks, 'can we do that?' and you can only answer, 'yes, I know it's possible but I don't know how to make it work.' And how am I to show the young guys all the flash things I have seen in demos or heard about here if I can't get them to work myself? On 17/11/2011 20:55, David Jordan wrote: The U2UG board has been discussing with Rocket how to encourage excitement that U2 is not legacy but is a technology leader. I was at a presentation of a U2 VAR and they demonstrated product that would be indistinguishable from any other player in open systems, Service architecture, interoperability, web intefaces, etc. How do we get this across to the market. With collaboration, we need to first excite. How do we excite people in U2 technology. Is it looking at a major enhancement of the BASIC programming language or a new one within U2. What other things do we look at. Currently young programmers are excited by web technology's, mobile apps, the sexy stuff. They are not interested in the backend, whether Oracle RDBMS, SQL Server or U2. This is a problem across the industry. The board of the user group are interested in areas to look at and how to create infrastructure to make this happen. If we can reignite excitement in the product and create a place for collaboration where that excitement can be put to good use then I believe we can achieve success. However our success depends on a group of people not a few individuals. If this is to occur, it is time for people to become involved in shaping a future. Regards David Jordan VP U2UG ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Code Collaboration
Personally I respond more immediately when something comes at me. Would it not be possible to set up a mailing list for any changes to Incubator code? So all users on that list get emailed when a change is made? I think this would propel both use of the code, and smisuse/s enhancement. -Original Message- From: Brian Leach br...@brianleach.co.uk To: U2 Users List u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Thu, Nov 17, 2011 2:55 pm Subject: Re: [U2] Code Collaboration Mecki Thats why the board launched the Incubator project early this year. The intent s for this to become a repository of useful working examples of using the echnology. But I don't have the time to write those all myself and we have been rying to pursuade the community to get involved. Brian ent from my ASUS Eee Pad Mecki Foerthmann mec...@gmx.net wrote: I think a major problem is the lack of training/documentation. Great that there are all these new possibilities, but if you have to figure everything out yourself it becomes very difficult to keep up with the technology. A lot of VARs (especially ours) are no help if you get the feeling they know even less then you do. It is very frustrating if the business asks, 'can we do that?' and you can only answer, 'yes, I know it's possible but I don't know how to make it work.' And how am I to show the young guys all the flash things I have seen in demos or heard about here if I can't get them to work myself? On 17/11/2011 20:55, David Jordan wrote: The U2UG board has been discussing with Rocket how to encourage excitement hat U2 is not legacy but is a technology leader. I was at a presentation of a 2 VAR and they demonstrated product that would be indistinguishable from any ther player in open systems, Service architecture, interoperability, web ntefaces, etc. How do we get this across to the market. With collaboration, we need to first excite. How do we excite people in U2 echnology. Is it looking at a major enhancement of the BASIC programming anguage or a new one within U2. What other things do we look at. Currently young programmers are excited by web technology's, mobile apps, the exy stuff. They are not interested in the backend, whether Oracle RDBMS, SQL erver or U2. This is a problem across the industry. The board of the user group are interested in areas to look at and how to reate infrastructure to make this happen. If we can reignite excitement in he product and create a place for collaboration where that excitement can be ut to good use then I believe we can achieve success. However our success epends on a group of people not a few individuals. If this is to occur, it is ime for people to become involved in shaping a future. Regards David Jordan VP U2UG ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users __ 2-Users mailing list 2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org ttp://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Code Collaboration
Ya know what I think the real problem is... Most of us have about 100 irons in the fire, and, we would all love to maintain/contribute, but, every time we start something, we realize, Oh crap, someone has to administer that Then once the poor soul administering it, gets busy, misses a few requests, etc... then the people contributing say, Oh well, that must not be maintained anymore, or that guy/gal must be busy. I think we can create something, the real problem is, finding folks with enough time/motivation/drive, etc. to monitor/maintain/administer it. Contributing is the easy part. Organizing, documenting, and making it presentable is the hard part. On top of that most programmers/technicians, are sucky documenters, or would rather not document at all, OR, they assume that you are as smart as they are, or were when they wrote something. So I'm for it, and I could devote some time to it here and there... But, we have to overcome the challenges I mentioned. Thats my two cents. On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 1:32 PM, Wjhonson wjhon...@aol.com wrote: The PickWiki is a place where code can be published, but I haven't seen even one case where code has been taken, enhanced, and put back. So it doesn't appear to be a good place for collaboration. If people however post code snippets here, or at comp.databases.pick there will be remarks and modifications within hours. Attempts at making Pick code collaboration projects have been mostly unsuccessful. Why? How can we create a true collaborative project and Would Anyone Come ? ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users -- John Thompson ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Code Collaboration
I personally find most projects uninteresting; I assume others do too. I think people would gladly collaborate on a project that gave them significant benefit, not just some incremental gain. rex Attempts at making Pick code collaboration projects have been mostly unsuccessful. Why? How can we create a true collaborative project and Would Anyone Come ? ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Code Collaboration
Github, SF.net, Bitbucket, etc are setup to allow team collaboration. For each project there are issue trackers, wiki, code browsing, etc. On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 2:02 PM, John Thompson jthompson...@gmail.com wrote: Ya know what I think the real problem is... Most of us have about 100 irons in the fire, and, we would all love to maintain/contribute, but, every time we start something, we realize, Oh crap, someone has to administer that Then once the poor soul administering it, gets busy, misses a few requests, etc... then the people contributing say, Oh well, that must not be maintained anymore, or that guy/gal must be busy. I think we can create something, the real problem is, finding folks with enough time/motivation/drive, etc. to monitor/maintain/administer it. Contributing is the easy part. Organizing, documenting, and making it presentable is the hard part. On top of that most programmers/technicians, are sucky documenters, or would rather not document at all, OR, they assume that you are as smart as they are, or were when they wrote something. So I'm for it, and I could devote some time to it here and there... But, we have to overcome the challenges I mentioned. Thats my two cents. On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 1:32 PM, Wjhonson wjhon...@aol.com wrote: The PickWiki is a place where code can be published, but I haven't seen even one case where code has been taken, enhanced, and put back. So it doesn't appear to be a good place for collaboration. If people however post code snippets here, or at comp.databases.pick there will be remarks and modifications within hours. Attempts at making Pick code collaboration projects have been mostly unsuccessful. Why? How can we create a true collaborative project and Would Anyone Come ? ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users -- John Thompson ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Code Collaboration
I have some U2 related code on these two sites. https://bitbucket.org/slestak/u2-tools https://github.com/slestak/RocketUnidata On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 2:10 PM, Steve Romanow slestak...@gmail.com wrote: Github, SF.net, Bitbucket, etc are setup to allow team collaboration. For each project there are issue trackers, wiki, code browsing, etc. On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 2:02 PM, John Thompson jthompson...@gmail.com wrote: Ya know what I think the real problem is... Most of us have about 100 irons in the fire, and, we would all love to maintain/contribute, but, every time we start something, we realize, Oh crap, someone has to administer that Then once the poor soul administering it, gets busy, misses a few requests, etc... then the people contributing say, Oh well, that must not be maintained anymore, or that guy/gal must be busy. I think we can create something, the real problem is, finding folks with enough time/motivation/drive, etc. to monitor/maintain/administer it. Contributing is the easy part. Organizing, documenting, and making it presentable is the hard part. On top of that most programmers/technicians, are sucky documenters, or would rather not document at all, OR, they assume that you are as smart as they are, or were when they wrote something. So I'm for it, and I could devote some time to it here and there... But, we have to overcome the challenges I mentioned. Thats my two cents. On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 1:32 PM, Wjhonson wjhon...@aol.com wrote: The PickWiki is a place where code can be published, but I haven't seen even one case where code has been taken, enhanced, and put back. So it doesn't appear to be a good place for collaboration. If people however post code snippets here, or at comp.databases.pick there will be remarks and modifications within hours. Attempts at making Pick code collaboration projects have been mostly unsuccessful. Why? How can we create a true collaborative project and Would Anyone Come ? ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users -- John Thompson ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Code Collaboration
PICK is a highly proprietary database development environment which is SOLD to VAR's. Therefore, it is not much of a hobbyists tool for development. Therefore, assuming that most programmers are employed by a company, who owns the code anyway? Nor is it an open source development environment, as an application is really meant to have the database embedded. Rather difficult to achieve to when you can't even get a RRP on a license. And would a VAR really want some odd-ball software installed into THEIR products embedded database? What actually is missing and would be of significant interest (to me) and help is a list of design and analysis patterns. These already exist for other environments via books and websites. And there has been periodically discussions here on the best way to generally do things e.g. processing lists via removing items from the front of the list. But, this really should be a Rocket Software initiated process as it is THEIR product and it adds value for all. ...2 cents worth... WJhonson wrote: Attempts at making Pick code collaboration projects have been mostly unsuccessful. Why? How can we create a true collaborative project and Would Anyone Come ? - Learn and Do Excel and Share http://mvdbs.com http://mvdbs.com -- View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Code-Collaboration-tp32856673p32857145.html Sent from the U2 - Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Code Collaboration
Yes but would people come. That's the other side of the ticket. PickWiki gets an incredibly low rate of change, much less than a change per week. There are hundreds of programmers on this list, who read responses every day. -Original Message- From: Steve Romanow slestak...@gmail.com To: U2 Users List u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Wed, Nov 16, 2011 11:10 am Subject: Re: [U2] Code Collaboration Github, SF.net, Bitbucket, etc are setup to allow team collaboration. or each project there are issue trackers, wiki, code browsing, etc. On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 2:02 PM, John Thompson jthompson...@gmail.com wrote: Ya know what I think the real problem is... Most of us have about 100 irons in the fire, and, we would all love to maintain/contribute, but, every time we start something, we realize, Oh crap, someone has to administer that Then once the poor soul administering it, gets busy, misses a few requests, etc... then the people contributing say, Oh well, that must not be maintained anymore, or that guy/gal must be busy. I think we can create something, the real problem is, finding folks with enough time/motivation/drive, etc. to monitor/maintain/administer it. Contributing is the easy part. Organizing, documenting, and making it presentable is the hard part. On top of that most programmers/technicians, are sucky documenters, or would rather not document at all, OR, they assume that you are as smart as they are, or were when they wrote something. So I'm for it, and I could devote some time to it here and there... But, we have to overcome the challenges I mentioned. Thats my two cents. On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 1:32 PM, Wjhonson wjhon...@aol.com wrote: The PickWiki is a place where code can be published, but I haven't seen even one case where code has been taken, enhanced, and put back. So it doesn't appear to be a good place for collaboration. If people however post code snippets here, or at comp.databases.pick there will be remarks and modifications within hours. Attempts at making Pick code collaboration projects have been mostly unsuccessful. Why? How can we create a true collaborative project and Would Anyone Come ? ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users -- John Thompson ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users __ 2-Users mailing list 2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org ttp://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Code Collaboration
You don't believe in group collaboration? I always install code onto systems of which I work. I never get permission from the vendor. I'd never even thought of asking any vendor for permission. My tools are for me to do my work, not for them to permit me to do it. My client is the end user, not the vendor. -Original Message- From: DavidJMurray (mvdbs.com) nab...@mvdbs.com To: u2-users u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Wed, Nov 16, 2011 11:44 am Subject: Re: [U2] Code Collaboration PICK is a highly proprietary database development environment which is SOLD o VAR's. Therefore, it is not much of a hobbyists tool for development. Therefore, ssuming that most programmers are employed by a company, who owns the code nyway? Nor is it an open source development environment, as an application is eally meant to have the database embedded. Rather difficult to achieve to hen you can't even get a RRP on a license. And would a VAR really want some dd-ball software installed into THEIR products embedded database? What actually is missing and would be of significant interest (to me) and elp is a list of design and analysis patterns. These already exist for ther environments via books and websites. And there has been periodically iscussions here on the best way to generally do things e.g. processing ists via removing items from the front of the list. But, this really should be a Rocket Software initiated process as it is HEIR product and it adds value for all. ...2 cents worth... WJhonson wrote: Attempts at making Pick code collaboration projects have been mostly unsuccessful. Why? How can we create a true collaborative project and Would Anyone Come ? Learn and Do xcel and Share ttp://mvdbs.com http://mvdbs.com - iew this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Code-Collaboration-tp32856673p32857145.html ent from the U2 - Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ 2-Users mailing list 2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org ttp://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Code Collaboration
The contractual obligations between a employee, contractor and software vendor differ. I always abide by the contractual obligations. I have no issues with group collaborations. But I would not use U2 or a PICK derivative for such a project as I can not legally obtain a licensed copy of U2 (not that I have contacted Rocket to purchase a license). The Personal Editions have a strict license which does not include production; which I would have thought that a group collaboration project would full under. WJhonson wrote: You don't believe in group collaboration? My client is the end user, not the vendor. - Learn and Do Excel and Share http://mvdbs.com http://mvdbs.com -- View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Code-Collaboration-tp32856673p32857388.html Sent from the U2 - Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Code Collaboration
That license does not mean production of code Rather it means a production environment meaning in use by an end user who isn't a developer Of course developers can use the PE to develop code, that's the very point of making it free to developers. -Original Message- From: DavidJMurray (mvdbs.com) nab...@mvdbs.com To: u2-users u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Wed, Nov 16, 2011 12:24 pm Subject: Re: [U2] Code Collaboration The contractual obligations between a employee, contractor and software endor differ. I always abide by the contractual obligations. I have no issues with group collaborations. But I would not use U2 or a PICK erivative for such a project as I can not legally obtain a licensed copy of 2 (not that I have contacted Rocket to purchase a license). The Personal ditions have a strict license which does not include production; which I ould have thought that a group collaboration project would full under. WJhonson wrote: You don't believe in group collaboration? My client is the end user, not the vendor. Learn and Do xcel and Share ttp://mvdbs.com http://mvdbs.com - iew this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Code-Collaboration-tp32856673p32857388.html ent from the U2 - Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ 2-Users mailing list 2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org ttp://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Code Collaboration
Why would this fall under production use? For group collaboration (via a VCS or DVCS) I would imagine that everyone would have their own copy installed on their personal PC for personal use. The key here being personal. If the group collorabation was for commercial purposes, that is a different question. Prior to joining Rocket, that is exactly what I did to open-source a cut-down version of a code coverage tool I had written: http://sourceforge.net/projects/ucov/. There is no reason why developers could not work on this code using the PE editions of the databases. Regards, Dan McGrath U2 Product Manager Rocket Software 4600 S. Ulster Street **Suite 1100 **Denver, CO 80237 * USA Tel: +1.720.475.8098 * Fax: +1.617.630.7392 Email: dmcgr...@rs.com Web: www.rocketsoftware.com/u2 -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of DavidJMurray (mvdbs.com) Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2011 1:24 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] Code Collaboration The contractual obligations between a employee, contractor and software vendor differ. I always abide by the contractual obligations. I have no issues with group collaborations. But I would not use U2 or a PICK derivative for such a project as I can not legally obtain a licensed copy of U2 (not that I have contacted Rocket to purchase a license). The Personal Editions have a strict license which does not include production; which I would have thought that a group collaboration project would full under. WJhonson wrote: You don't believe in group collaboration? My client is the end user, not the vendor. - Learn and Do Excel and Share http://mvdbs.com http://mvdbs.com -- View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Code-Collaboration-tp32856673p32857388.html Sent from the U2 - Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Code Collaboration
I am not sure what you are talking about David You can buy a copy of U2 and PE allows development. Rocket has to earn income or there will be no U2, so they do realistically expect commercial operations to pay for licenses. For developers developing code there is a range of options, talk to Rocket. Any code that is written does not belong to Rocket, Rocket licenses the software that it runs on not the code that is developed on it. Source code licensing and copyright is related to the person who writes the code or the employment contract around that developer. I see no difference in using Pick to using Oracle, DB2, Microsoft software. The same restrictions, licensing and copyright apply across the board and are not unique to Pick/U2. David Jordan ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Code Collaboration
Well, it's not really worth a fight as I am not a lawyer, but from the wed site: This edition is designed for single-user personal development and training as well as sales demos. It is not for remarketing or use in production environments. The use of 'personal development and training' is quite explicit to me. I would have thought that producing an application is production and if it was supplied for code/application development, then it would not be limited to 2 users and small files as part of any development is the testing of a normal working environment - large files and multiple users - all which can not be done on a PE edition. But, it's neither here nor there really as how can you develop an application on an environment when you are locked out of important bug fixes and work arounds and such stuff when you are not a VAR. Which begs the point; any VAR here can inform if they get their in-house development and testing U2/SB+/Web Dev software for free? WJhonson wrote: That license does not mean production of code Rather it means a production environment meaning in use by an end user who isn't a developer Of course developers can use the PE to develop code, that's the very point of making it free to developers. -Original Message- From: DavidJMurray (mvdbs.com) nab...@mvdbs.com To: u2-users u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Wed, Nov 16, 2011 12:24 pm Subject: Re: [U2] Code Collaboration The contractual obligations between a employee, contractor and software endor differ. I always abide by the contractual obligations. I have no issues with group collaborations. But I would not use U2 or a PICK erivative for such a project as I can not legally obtain a licensed copy of 2 (not that I have contacted Rocket to purchase a license). The Personal ditions have a strict license which does not include production; which I ould have thought that a group collaboration project would full under. WJhonson wrote: You don't believe in group collaboration? My client is the end user, not the vendor. Learn and Do xcel and Share ttp://mvdbs.com http://mvdbs.com - iew this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Code-Collaboration-tp32856673p32857388.html ent from the U2 - Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ 2-Users mailing list 2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org ttp://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users - Learn and Do Excel and Share http://mvdbs.com http://mvdbs.com -- View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Code-Collaboration-tp32856673p32857475.html Sent from the U2 - Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Code Collaboration
Then Rocket should change the licensing info on their web site: This edition is designed for single-user personal development and training as well as sales demos. It is not for remarketing or use in production environments. I take 'personal development' as self-training. What you say contradicts the above. Daniel McGrath wrote: Prior to joining Rocket, that is exactly what I did to open-source a cut-down version of a code coverage tool I had written: http://sourceforge.net/projects/ucov/. There is no reason why developers could not work on this code using the PE editions of the databases. Regards, Dan McGrath U2 Product Manager Rocket Software 4600 S. Ulster Street **Suite 1100 **Denver, CO 80237 * USA Tel: +1.720.475.8098 * Fax: +1.617.630.7392 Email: dmcgr...@rs.com Web: www.rocketsoftware.com/u2 -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of DavidJMurray (mvdbs.com) Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2011 1:24 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] Code Collaboration The contractual obligations between a employee, contractor and software vendor differ. I always abide by the contractual obligations. I have no issues with group collaborations. But I would not use U2 or a PICK derivative for such a project as I can not legally obtain a licensed copy of U2 (not that I have contacted Rocket to purchase a license). The Personal Editions have a strict license which does not include production; which I would have thought that a group collaboration project would full under. WJhonson wrote: You don't believe in group collaboration? My client is the end user, not the vendor. - Learn and Do Excel and Share http://mvdbs.com http://mvdbs.com -- View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Code-Collaboration-tp32856673p32857388.html Sent from the U2 - Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users - Learn and Do Excel and Share http://mvdbs.com http://mvdbs.com -- View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Code-Collaboration-tp32856673p32857488.html Sent from the U2 - Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Code Collaboration
Personal Development means developing code yourself. It doesn't mean achieving a higher state of conciousness. Although some may argue they are the same thing. -Original Message- From: DavidJMurray (mvdbs.com) nab...@mvdbs.com To: u2-users u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Wed, Nov 16, 2011 12:42 pm Subject: Re: [U2] Code Collaboration Then Rocket should change the licensing info on their web site: This edition is designed for single-user personal development and training s well as sales demos. It is not for remarketing or use in production nvironments. I take 'personal development' as self-training. What you say contradicts the above. aniel McGrath wrote: Prior to joining Rocket, that is exactly what I did to open-source a cut-down version of a code coverage tool I had written: http://sourceforge.net/projects/ucov/. There is no reason why developers could not work on this code using the PE editions of the databases. Regards, Dan McGrath U2 Product Manager Rocket Software 4600 S. Ulster Street **Suite 1100 **Denver, CO 80237 * USA Tel: +1.720.475.8098 * Fax: +1.617.630.7392 Email: dmcgr...@rs.com Web: www.rocketsoftware.com/u2 -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of DavidJMurray (mvdbs.com) Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2011 1:24 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] Code Collaboration The contractual obligations between a employee, contractor and software vendor differ. I always abide by the contractual obligations. I have no issues with group collaborations. But I would not use U2 or a PICK derivative for such a project as I can not legally obtain a licensed copy of U2 (not that I have contacted Rocket to purchase a license). The Personal Editions have a strict license which does not include production; which I would have thought that a group collaboration project would full under. WJhonson wrote: You don't believe in group collaboration? My client is the end user, not the vendor. - Learn and Do Excel and Share http://mvdbs.com http://mvdbs.com -- View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Code-Collaboration-tp32856673p32857388.html Sent from the U2 - Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users Learn and Do xcel and Share ttp://mvdbs.com http://mvdbs.com - iew this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Code-Collaboration-tp32856673p32857488.html ent from the U2 - Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ 2-Users mailing list 2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org ttp://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Code Collaboration
Hi David, I think this is fairly common language with software development products and as such I don't believe Rocket has a need to change the wording. It is 'personal development' as opposed to 'commercial development'. That is also development as in software development, not as in self-improvement development. Taking this into account, I don't believe what I wrote contradicts the license. Regards, Dan -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of DavidJMurray (mvdbs.com) Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2011 1:43 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] Code Collaboration Then Rocket should change the licensing info on their web site: This edition is designed for single-user personal development and training as well as sales demos. It is not for remarketing or use in production environments. I take 'personal development' as self-training. What you say contradicts the above. Daniel McGrath wrote: Prior to joining Rocket, that is exactly what I did to open-source a cut-down version of a code coverage tool I had written: http://sourceforge.net/projects/ucov/. There is no reason why developers could not work on this code using the PE editions of the databases. Regards, Dan McGrath U2 Product Manager Rocket Software 4600 S. Ulster Street **Suite 1100 **Denver, CO 80237 * USA Tel: +1.720.475.8098 * Fax: +1.617.630.7392 Email: dmcgr...@rs.com Web: www.rocketsoftware.com/u2 -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of DavidJMurray (mvdbs.com) Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2011 1:24 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] Code Collaboration The contractual obligations between a employee, contractor and software vendor differ. I always abide by the contractual obligations. I have no issues with group collaborations. But I would not use U2 or a PICK derivative for such a project as I can not legally obtain a licensed copy of U2 (not that I have contacted Rocket to purchase a license). The Personal Editions have a strict license which does not include production; which I would have thought that a group collaboration project would full under. WJhonson wrote: You don't believe in group collaboration? My client is the end user, not the vendor. - Learn and Do Excel and Share http://mvdbs.com http://mvdbs.com -- View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Code-Collaboration-tp32856673p32857388.html Sent from the U2 - Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users - Learn and Do Excel and Share http://mvdbs.com http://mvdbs.com -- View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Code-Collaboration-tp32856673p32857488.html Sent from the U2 - Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Code Collaboration
Good to get that sorted. Back to code collaboration. Daniel McGrath wrote: It is 'personal development' as opposed to 'commercial development'. That is also development as in software development, not as in self-improvement development. - Learn and Do Excel and Share http://mvdbs.com http://mvdbs.com -- View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Code-Collaboration-tp32856673p32857553.html Sent from the U2 - Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Code Collaboration
On 16/11/11 18:32, Wjhonson wrote: The PickWiki is a place where code can be published, but I haven't seen even one case where code has been taken, enhanced, and put back. So it doesn't appear to be a good place for collaboration. Well, I've both improved other peoples' code, and had others improve mine... BUT. Pickwiki tends to be a place where people dump proven code that other people can use. Much of my code I've posted doesn't NEED improvement, because it had been in production for a while before being posted. The bugs and stuff had been ironed out. If people however post code snippets here, or at comp.databases.pick there will be remarks and modifications within hours. Well, if people post code asking for help, then other people are eager to dive in :-) Attempts at making Pick code collaboration projects have been mostly unsuccessful. Why? How can we create a true collaborative project and Would Anyone Come ? First thing to do - don't try to force a round peg into a square hole. Pickwiki is a dumping ground for mature code. The u2 list and cdp are used as a help forum. Neither is suited for or the right place for a collaborative code project. Cheers, Wol ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Code Collaboration
Okay so that's everything that doesn't work. Is there another step forward? -Original Message- From: Wols Lists antli...@youngman.org.uk To: u2-users u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Wed, Nov 16, 2011 1:39 pm Subject: Re: [U2] Code Collaboration On 16/11/11 18:32, Wjhonson wrote: The PickWiki is a place where code can be published, but I haven't seen even ne case where code has been taken, enhanced, and put back. So it doesn't appear to be a good place for collaboration. ell, I've both improved other peoples' code, and had others improve mine... BUT. Pickwiki tends to be a place where people dump proven code that other eople can use. Much of my code I've posted doesn't NEED improvement, ecause it had been in production for a while before being posted. The ugs and stuff had been ironed out. If people however post code snippets here, or at comp.databases.pick there ill be remarks and modifications within hours. ell, if people post code asking for help, then other people are eager o dive in :-) Attempts at making Pick code collaboration projects have been mostly nsuccessful. Why? How can we create a true collaborative project and Would Anyone Come ? First thing to do - don't try to force a round peg into a square hole. ickwiki is a dumping ground for mature code. The u2 list and cdp are sed as a help forum. Neither is suited for or the right place for a ollaborative code project. Cheers, ol __ 2-Users mailing list 2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org ttp://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Code Collaboration
So what collaborative project do you want to start? What do you want to build? ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Code Collaboration
Something I have long desired is diff tool for mv records (that will use standard diff/patch output) so it can integrate with other tools. Maybe a packager for SB+ A diff tool for SB+ that understand what records make up an SB+ object. I started some thinking this direction on a sourceforge project, but got busy on many other things. On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 5:06 PM, Rex Gozar rgo...@gmail.com wrote: So what collaborative project do you want to start? What do you want to build? ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Code Collaboration
On 16/11/11 20:40, DavidJMurray (mvdbs.com) wrote: Well, it's not really worth a fight as I am not a lawyer, but from the wed site: This edition is designed for single-user personal development and training as well as sales demos. It is not for remarketing or use in production environments. The use of 'personal development and training' is quite explicit to me. I would have thought that producing an application is production and if it was supplied for code/application development, then it would not be limited to 2 users and small files as part of any development is the testing of a normal working environment - large files and multiple users - all which can not be done on a PE edition. Well, if Rocket took your attitude, I would say they're cutting off their nose to spite their face. To me, production means you are using it to support your business. If I'm developing something on my own, that's personal development, even if I want to sell it. Thing is, would any SANE software vendor tell a developer no we won't give you a free copy just in case you build a product and need to buy licences from us for your customers. I would have no qualms whatsoever about using the PE version to write stuff - either for my own personal use, OR for a product I was hoping to sell. Coz if I sold, I would have to get a paid-for licence for my customer and Rocket would make money they wouldn't otherwise have got. Cheers, Wol ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Code Collaboration
I take it you find the SB+ /COMPARE tool a little wanting -Original Message- From: Steve Romanow Something I have long desired is diff tool for mv records (that will use standard diff/patch output) so it can integrate with other tools. Maybe a packager for SB+ A diff tool for SB+ that understand what records make up an SB+ object. I started some thinking this direction on a sourceforge project, but got busy on many other things. On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 5:06 PM, Rex Gozar wrote: So what collaborative project do you want to start? What do you want to build? ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Code Collaboration
Yeah, the data is good, but the output is not what I want. and I couldn't use it on a select list of items. It is better than nothing, but not really what I am looking for. I use vimdiff a lot (with my U2 work) and one thing I love is when there is a difference on a line, it hilights where on the line the change is. If you use SB.COMPARE on say a report writer .TXT object, you know that a field has been added, but where the diff is not easily seen. On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 5:35 PM, Colin Alfke alfke...@hotmail.com wrote: I take it you find the SB+ /COMPARE tool a little wanting -Original Message- From: Steve Romanow Something I have long desired is diff tool for mv records (that will use standard diff/patch output) so it can integrate with other tools. Maybe a packager for SB+ A diff tool for SB+ that understand what records make up an SB+ object. I started some thinking this direction on a sourceforge project, but got busy on many other things. On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 5:06 PM, Rex Gozar wrote: So what collaborative project do you want to start? What do you want to build? ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Code Collaboration
From: Wjhonson Okay so that's everything that doesn't work. Is there another step forward? The PickWiki is a place where code can be published, but I haven't seen even ne case where code has been taken, enhanced, and put back. So it doesn't appear to be a good place for collaboration. Will, you and I usually disagree on our approach to various topics, but on this one we're in complete agreement. Thanks for bringing up this topic. Rather than posting a lengthy response here, I created a blog entry: nospamNebula-RnD.com/blog/tech/mv/2011/11/mvcollaboration.html Comments always welcome. Tony Gravagno Nebula Research and Development TG@ remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com Nebula RD sells mv.NET and other Pick/MultiValue products worldwide, and provides related development services remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com/blog Visit PickWiki.com! Contribute! http://Twitter.com/TonyGravagno ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Code Collaboration
As a proponent of using tools and creating tools for the Universe and Unidata databases, I find myself agreeing with Tony. I have spent the last 7 years using and building Eclipse based tools that use a built in compare tool, version control, continuous compiler, and hundreds of other features. These tools save the programmer time and your employer money every day you use them. I know this is a rare case, but the man has a point from his blog: Second, many people believe that all tools should come from the DBMS vendors and not from the community. As someone who has made a career of providing solutions that don’t exist elsewhere I’ve been mesmerized at how people will wait forever for solutions that never come from the DBMS providers, while not being willing to pay anything to get solutions right now. Regardless of how well I’ve done my job, I’m just saying this market largely doesn’t use tools that don’t come in the box, and people would prefer to wait for something that may never come than to spend a few bucks to get something now. Regards, Doug www.u2logic.com U2 Tools that are affordable On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 5:49 PM, Tony Gravagno 3xk547...@sneakemail.comwrote: From: Wjhonson Okay so that's everything that doesn't work. Is there another step forward? The PickWiki is a place where code can be published, but I haven't seen even ne case where code has been taken, enhanced, and put back. So it doesn't appear to be a good place for collaboration. Will, you and I usually disagree on our approach to various topics, but on this one we're in complete agreement. Thanks for bringing up this topic. Rather than posting a lengthy response here, I created a blog entry: nospamNebula-RnD.com/blog/tech/mv/2011/11/mvcollaboration.html Comments always welcome. Tony Gravagno Nebula Research and Development TG@ remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com Nebula RD sells mv.NET and other Pick/MultiValue products worldwide, and provides related development services remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com/blog Visit PickWiki.com! Contribute! http://Twitter.com/TonyGravagno ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Code Collaboration
Did anyone buy a lotto ticket or check for planetary alignment? This might not ever happen again: Doug, Will, and Tony all in amicable agreement on the same day... ;) ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
