Re: [EVDL] Combating ICED EV parking spaces

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Not too many convenience chargers accept 240V, almost all are set up for
110V only (in USA).
When you only provide an outlet, the EV driver needs to use their EVSE
instead of just plugging in the cord.
NOTE that the situation is radically different in Europe, where you only
find a pole sitting at the edge of a parking slot
with a Mennekes plug (if I am not mistaken).
The EV driver brings the cord to plug into the charging pole and into
the car. It is just a wire though, not a complete EVSE.
I have considered installing an EVSE at work without the cord (as we
have frequent events of copper thieves passing by)
by installing a standard plug on the EVSE such as a L14-50 socket and
make the cord available at the front lobby for anyone who
needs to plug in - just the cord with the L14-50 plug on one end and the
J1772 at the other end.
Without exposed wire, the copper thieves will not bother the charger.
Cor.

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Haudy Kazemi
via EV
Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2017 10:30 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List; Bill Dube via EV;
ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: Haudy Kazemi
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Combating ICED EV parking spaces

A mix of options would be preferable IMO. L1 outlets in most places, and
some L2 stations marked with signs saying 4 hour limits. A notification
system that charging is done or that a space is available would be a
nice enhancement.

One thing is I'm not convinced that providing L1 120v outlets is
actually much less expensive than providing L2 240v outlets (note I said
outlet here, not EVSE/station). Why? Because the wire and conduit will
need to be sized according to the continuous current demand. This in
turn means using at least 10 or 12 gauge wire to keep voltage drop at 12
amps over some distances. Big parking areas could need even larger wire
just to handle voltage drop. At 240v, voltage drop will have less of an
effect (percentage wise) for the same distance. In short, 240v outlets
like NEMA 6-20 allow for smaller wire or longer distances. 
The other aspect the number of outlets per circuit. 240v is commonly
done as 1 outlet per circuit wheres 120v often has several outlets per
circuit. This works for 120v because most loads are intermittent high
loads (microwave, vacuum) or low continuous (lights, TV). EVSE loads are
generally high continous. L1 EVSEs usually limit themselves to 12 amps;
in a parking lot, that would need one circuit per parking space assuming
EVSEs all were active at once together. In short, 240v needs the same
number of circuits. (One difference, though, is 240v will use 2x the
electric panel circuit breaker slots.)

It is also possible to do this with power rationing. Several OpenEVSE
based solutions have been developed to allow multiple vehicles to share
a single 240v circuit. Tesla has also done this with their high power
wall chargers that allows up to 4 be linked together.

My recommendation: run wire/conduit that allows for an easy conversion
from 120v to 240v circuits. If providing dedicated outlets, plan on 12
amps per actively used parking space. If using linked EVSEs then check
the EVSE specs to see its sharing capabilities.

Last consideration: I am getting the impression that newer EV owners
tend not to be as interested in pulling out an EVSE each day to connect
their cars. Doing so is a hassle (esp rolling cord up afterwards) and it
leaves their personal EVSE vulnerable to incidents.


On December 14, 2017 11:32:32 AM CST, Bill Dube via EV
 wrote:
>I tend to agree with Paul.
>The installation of 120vac outlets are a tiny fraction of the price of 
>the installation of L2 charging pedestals.
>If you spread them around over many parking places, (like they do in 
>the great white north for block heater outlets) there will be less 
>competition and contention over them.
>Keep in mind that a single 120vac 20 amp outlet can easily supply an EV
>
>with 50 or 60 or perhaps 70 miles of charge over a 8 hour workday. This
>
>covers 99% of commutes.
>
>Level 2 or 3 may be what is sexy and flashy, but Level 1 is probably 
>optimal for charging at work, given all the constraints. The ~$7k you 
>would spend on installation a Level 2 charger pedestal would easily pay
>
>for 20 Level 1 outlets spread over 20 parking places.
>
>Bill D.
>
>On 12/14/2017 6:13 AM, paul dove via EV wrote:
>> I say put 120v outlets in every spot and let people park where they
>want.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On Dec 13, 2017, at 3:55 PM, Cor van de Water via EV
> wrote:
>>>
>>> Correct,
>>> Green means "available" so you would instinctively expect an empty
>spot
>>> at a green light.
>>> I would suggest a slight change to the meaning of the colors:
>>> Red = charging (no matter how fast/slow) Yellow = charging ended, 
>>> spot should 

Re: [EVDL] Combating ICED EV parking spaces

[Haudy Kazemi via EV]

ards the end of the max charge time the light turns yellow and
>when
>>> the charge time
>>> has expired, it stops charging but may allow an additional grace
>time
>>> before the light
>>> turns green again and you should be on your way (or moved out of the
>>> spot at least).
>>> At companies with high contention for too few spaces, it makes sense
>to
>>> force everyone
>>> to switch during lunch time (for example max 4 hours charging).
>>>
>>> Many EVs already announce how long charging is going to take, so it
>>> should be
>>> no surprise how long one can leave the car before it needs to be
>moved.
>>> Obviously it is user friendly if the charging station sends you a
>txt
>>> when charging ends
>>> and the grace time starts.
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of EVDL
>>> Administrator via EV
>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 1:40 PM
>>> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>>> Cc: EVDL Administrator
>>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Combating ICED EV parking spaces
>>>
>>>> On 13 Dec 2017 at 13:08, Lawrence Harris via EV wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I would love to see a big light on the top of the charge head that
>>>> goes green while charging, amber when the charger ramps down to the
>>>> end of charge and red when done.
>>> Outstanding idea, but I'd recomment the exact opposite of the colors
>--
>>> red for bulk charging, amber for absorption (last 20%), and green
>for
>>> charged.
>>>
>>> That's  because almost every other charger used on personal gadgets
>>> (phones, cordless drills, and so on) uses those colors or something
>>> similar. It's read for charging, green for done, and sometimes you
>get
>>> yellow or flashing green during the absorption phase.  I don't think
>>> I've ever seen any other charger that was lit up red when it was
>>> finished, except for a couple that never changed color.
>>>
>>> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
>>> EVDL Administrator
>>>
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>>> Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>= =
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>me.
>>> To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the
>>> webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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>>>
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>>
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Re: [EVDL] Combating ICED EV parking spaces

[Cal Frye via EV]

The color code on the charger in the CWRU garage is visible and clear, 
although a bit different.

Green - disconnected/available for charge
Blue - charging
Yellow - connected, but done charging.

And I agree, several 120V outlets would help greatly, but there don't 
seem to be any installed!

Cal


Lawrence Harris via EV 
December 13, 2017 at 4:08 PM
I would love to see a big light on the top of the charge head that 
goes green while charging, amber when the charger ramps down to the 
end of charge and red when done. A (not so) subtle hint of the state 
of the charging spot - in use through to hogging. It would make 
parking attendants able to credit say a 1 hour limit after charge end 
before getting a ticket. I know charge point and sometime my car both 
let me know when it’s finished charging. I am sure others do to.


Regards,
Lawrence Harris
lhar...@haritech.com


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Re: [EVDL] Combating ICED EV parking spaces

[Bill Dube via EV]

I tend to agree with Paul.
The installation of 120vac outlets are a tiny fraction of the price of 
the installation of L2 charging pedestals.
If you spread them around over many parking places, (like they do in the 
great white north for block heater outlets) there will be less 
competition and contention over them.
Keep in mind that a single 120vac 20 amp outlet can easily supply an EV 
with 50 or 60 or perhaps 70 miles of charge over a 8 hour workday. This 
covers 99% of commutes.


Level 2 or 3 may be what is sexy and flashy, but Level 1 is probably 
optimal for charging at work, given all the constraints. The ~$7k you 
would spend on installation a Level 2 charger pedestal would easily pay 
for 20 Level 1 outlets spread over 20 parking places.


Bill D.

On 12/14/2017 6:13 AM, paul dove via EV wrote:

I say put 120v outlets in every spot and let people park where they want.

Sent from my iPhone


On Dec 13, 2017, at 3:55 PM, Cor van de Water via EV  wrote:

Correct,
Green means "available" so you would instinctively expect an empty spot
at a green light.
I would suggest a slight change to the meaning of the colors:
Red = charging (no matter how fast/slow)
Yellow = charging ended, spot should be vacated as soon as possible
(grace timer)
Green = charging and grace timer ended, spot is available (even if full
EV still plugged in).

Anybody parked in a "green light" spot is suceptible to ticketing and
towing.
Grace time can be tuned to match need/demand, with appropriate signage.

When a "yellow" charging space is vacated, an EV can immediately plug in
and turn the
spot to "Red" again.
If a spot next to the EV charging spot is available and an EV arrives
that urgently needs a charge,
it should be perfectly fine to unplug a "Yellow" or "Green" charger.
Preferably he leaves a note at the car, how to contact him and how long
he needs to charge
before it is OK to unplug when the official EV charging spot is in use
again.

Note that it is possible to implement a max charging time with this as
well:
Towards the end of the max charge time the light turns yellow and when
the charge time
has expired, it stops charging but may allow an additional grace time
before the light
turns green again and you should be on your way (or moved out of the
spot at least).
At companies with high contention for too few spaces, it makes sense to
force everyone
to switch during lunch time (for example max 4 hours charging).

Many EVs already announce how long charging is going to take, so it
should be
no surprise how long one can leave the car before it needs to be moved.
Obviously it is user friendly if the charging station sends you a txt
when charging ends
and the grace time starts.

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of EVDL
Administrator via EV
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 1:40 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: EVDL Administrator
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Combating ICED EV parking spaces


On 13 Dec 2017 at 13:08, Lawrence Harris via EV wrote:

I would love to see a big light on the top of the charge head that
goes green while charging, amber when the charger ramps down to the
end of charge and red when done.

Outstanding idea, but I'd recomment the exact opposite of the colors --
red for bulk charging, amber for absorption (last 20%), and green for
charged.

That's  because almost every other charger used on personal gadgets
(phones, cordless drills, and so on) uses those colors or something
similar. It's read for charging, green for done, and sometimes you get
yellow or flashing green during the absorption phase.  I don't think
I've ever seen any other charger that was lit up red when it was
finished, except for a couple that never changed color.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL
Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
= = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
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webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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_

Re: [EVDL] Combating ICED EV parking spaces

[paul dove via EV]

I say put 120v outlets in every spot and let people park where they want.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 13, 2017, at 3:55 PM, Cor van de Water via EV  
> wrote:
> 
> Correct,
> Green means "available" so you would instinctively expect an empty spot
> at a green light.
> I would suggest a slight change to the meaning of the colors:
> Red = charging (no matter how fast/slow)
> Yellow = charging ended, spot should be vacated as soon as possible
> (grace timer)
> Green = charging and grace timer ended, spot is available (even if full
> EV still plugged in).
> 
> Anybody parked in a "green light" spot is suceptible to ticketing and
> towing.
> Grace time can be tuned to match need/demand, with appropriate signage.
> 
> When a "yellow" charging space is vacated, an EV can immediately plug in
> and turn the
> spot to "Red" again.
> If a spot next to the EV charging spot is available and an EV arrives
> that urgently needs a charge,
> it should be perfectly fine to unplug a "Yellow" or "Green" charger.
> Preferably he leaves a note at the car, how to contact him and how long
> he needs to charge
> before it is OK to unplug when the official EV charging spot is in use
> again.
> 
> Note that it is possible to implement a max charging time with this as
> well:
> Towards the end of the max charge time the light turns yellow and when
> the charge time
> has expired, it stops charging but may allow an additional grace time
> before the light
> turns green again and you should be on your way (or moved out of the
> spot at least).
> At companies with high contention for too few spaces, it makes sense to
> force everyone
> to switch during lunch time (for example max 4 hours charging).
> 
> Many EVs already announce how long charging is going to take, so it
> should be
> no surprise how long one can leave the car before it needs to be moved.
> Obviously it is user friendly if the charging station sends you a txt
> when charging ends
> and the grace time starts.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of EVDL
> Administrator via EV
> Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 1:40 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Cc: EVDL Administrator
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Combating ICED EV parking spaces
> 
>> On 13 Dec 2017 at 13:08, Lawrence Harris via EV wrote:
>> 
>> I would love to see a big light on the top of the charge head that 
>> goes green while charging, amber when the charger ramps down to the 
>> end of charge and red when done.
> 
> Outstanding idea, but I'd recomment the exact opposite of the colors --
> red for bulk charging, amber for absorption (last 20%), and green for
> charged. 
> 
> That's  because almost every other charger used on personal gadgets
> (phones, cordless drills, and so on) uses those colors or something
> similar. It's read for charging, green for done, and sometimes you get
> yellow or flashing green during the absorption phase.  I don't think
> I've ever seen any other charger that was lit up red when it was
> finished, except for a couple that never changed color.
> 
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
> 
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL
> Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
> To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the
> webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> 
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Combating ICED EV parking spaces

[Lawrence Harris via EV]

I am thinking we are talking about malls and other public charging stations and 
that there would be a grace period after charging completes.  Businesses that 
supply EV charging (I had such for a few years) can set their own rules.

Regards,
Lawrence Harris
lhar...@haritech.com




> On Dec 13, 2017, at 17:24, EVDL Administrator via EV  
> wrote:
> 
> On 13 Dec 2017 at 13:55, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:
> 
>> Anybody parked in a "green light" spot is suceptible to ticketing and
>> towing.
> 
> I don't think that insisting people take time out from work to move their 
> cars when charged, subject to their cars being ticketed or towed, is the way 
> to get more of them into EVs.  
> 
> From an employer's perspective, such interruptions don't help productivity.
> 
> What if you're in a critical meeting when the "time's up" message arrives?
> 
> I'd rather see employers install enough EVSEs to support all their EV 
> drivers, but that's probably unrealistic.
> 
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
> 
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
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> reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my 
> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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> 
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Re: [EVDL] Combating ICED EV parking spaces

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 13 Dec 2017 at 13:55, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:

> Anybody parked in a "green light" spot is suceptible to ticketing and
> towing.

I don't think that insisting people take time out from work to move their 
cars when charged, subject to their cars being ticketed or towed, is the way 
to get more of them into EVs.  

>From an employer's perspective, such interruptions don't help productivity.

What if you're in a critical meeting when the "time's up" message arrives?

I'd rather see employers install enough EVSEs to support all their EV 
drivers, but that's probably unrealistic.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not 
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email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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Re: [EVDL] Combating ICED EV parking spaces

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Correct,
Green means "available" so you would instinctively expect an empty spot
at a green light.
I would suggest a slight change to the meaning of the colors:
Red = charging (no matter how fast/slow)
Yellow = charging ended, spot should be vacated as soon as possible
(grace timer)
Green = charging and grace timer ended, spot is available (even if full
EV still plugged in).

Anybody parked in a "green light" spot is suceptible to ticketing and
towing.
Grace time can be tuned to match need/demand, with appropriate signage.

When a "yellow" charging space is vacated, an EV can immediately plug in
and turn the
spot to "Red" again.
If a spot next to the EV charging spot is available and an EV arrives
that urgently needs a charge,
it should be perfectly fine to unplug a "Yellow" or "Green" charger.
Preferably he leaves a note at the car, how to contact him and how long
he needs to charge
before it is OK to unplug when the official EV charging spot is in use
again.

Note that it is possible to implement a max charging time with this as
well:
Towards the end of the max charge time the light turns yellow and when
the charge time
has expired, it stops charging but may allow an additional grace time
before the light
turns green again and you should be on your way (or moved out of the
spot at least).
At companies with high contention for too few spaces, it makes sense to
force everyone
to switch during lunch time (for example max 4 hours charging).

Many EVs already announce how long charging is going to take, so it
should be
no surprise how long one can leave the car before it needs to be moved.
Obviously it is user friendly if the charging station sends you a txt
when charging ends
and the grace time starts.

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of EVDL
Administrator via EV
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 1:40 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: EVDL Administrator
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Combating ICED EV parking spaces

On 13 Dec 2017 at 13:08, Lawrence Harris via EV wrote:

> I would love to see a big light on the top of the charge head that 
> goes green while charging, amber when the charger ramps down to the 
> end of charge and red when done.

Outstanding idea, but I'd recomment the exact opposite of the colors --
red for bulk charging, amber for absorption (last 20%), and green for
charged. 

That's  because almost every other charger used on personal gadgets
(phones, cordless drills, and so on) uses those colors or something
similar. It's read for charging, green for done, and sometimes you get
yellow or flashing green during the absorption phase.  I don't think
I've ever seen any other charger that was lit up red when it was
finished, except for a couple that never changed color.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL
Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
= = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the
webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


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Re: [EVDL] Combating ICED EV parking spaces

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 13 Dec 2017 at 13:08, Lawrence Harris via EV wrote:

> I would love to see a big light on the top of the charge head that goes green
> while charging, amber when the charger ramps down to the end of charge and red
> when done. 

Outstanding idea, but I'd recomment the exact opposite of the colors -- red 
for bulk charging, amber for absorption (last 20%), and green for charged. 

That's  because almost every other charger used on personal gadgets (phones, 
cordless drills, and so on) uses those colors or something similar. It's 
read for charging, green for done, and sometimes you get yellow or flashing 
green during the absorption phase.  I don't think I've ever seen any other 
charger that was lit up red when it was finished, except for a couple that 
never changed color.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Combating ICED EV parking spaces

[Lawrence Harris via EV]

I would love to see a big light on the top of the charge head that goes green 
while charging, amber when the charger ramps down to the end of charge and red 
when done.  A (not so) subtle hint of the state of the charging spot - in use 
through to hogging.  It would make parking attendants able to credit say a 1 
hour limit after charge end before getting a ticket.  I know charge point and 
sometime my car both let me know when it’s finished charging.  I am sure others 
do to.

Regards,
Lawrence Harris
lhar...@haritech.com




> On Dec 13, 2017, at 12:55, Cor van de Water  wrote:
> 
> That is why it is so infuriating to see the same Tesla S always parked in the 
> first EV charging stall at a local hospital,
> clearly a member of the staff, never plugged in. And plenty other EVs 
> scrambling to get the charging cords stretched
> out to the adjacent parking spots when available,  there are 4 L2 charging 
> spots and a few other L1 spaces for
> opportunity charging, but I see adjacent non-EV charging spaces with EVs in 
> them and cords stretched to the max
> to reach those spaces, while the S sits there the whole day every day not 
> charging.
> Apparently, that person does not want to get the message, so unless the 
> policies are changed and he is towed,
> he is going to block the charging spot for everyone
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Lawrence Harris via 
> EV
> Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 12:43 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Cc: Lawrence Harris
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Combating ICED EV parking spaces
> 
> It works both ways too.  I often see EV’s or plug in hybrids parked in the EV 
> spot with either the charger not plugged or the charger at end of cycle.
> 
> As was noted it’s an EV charging spot, not an EV parking spot.  I often don’t 
> bother with the EV spot because I don’t need the charge.
> 
> Regards,
> Lawrence Harris
> lhar...@haritech.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Dec 13, 2017, at 12:26, brucedp5 via EV  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> http://thenewswheel.com/does-putting-a-potato-in-a-cars-tailpipe-actua
>> lly-cause-damage/ ... stuffing party horns in a car’s tailpipe is a 
>> lot funnier ...
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4VLl-qghAY
>> 
>> No one should cause harm to the ice offender or their property.
>> 
>> Getting everyone to understand, an EV spot is NOT a parking spot.
>> *It is a charging spot.
>> 
>> There should be EV charging spot signage stating tow-away & fines if 
>> non-EVs block the EV charging spot. And there must be a city or campus 
>> ordinance to back the signage up. City or campus police then need to 
>> be educated by making that ordinance part of their SOP (standard operating 
>> procedure).
>> Then you can call the police to enforce the ordinance by towing the 
>> ice away (the ice offender won't do that again).
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> a bumper sticker that reads "I hate polar bears so much I park in EV
>> spaces<
>> 
>> --
>> Sent from: 
>> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/
>> ___
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>> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>> 
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Re: [EVDL] Combating ICED EV parking spaces

[Cor van de Water via EV]

That is why it is so infuriating to see the same Tesla S always parked in the 
first EV charging stall at a local hospital,
clearly a member of the staff, never plugged in. And plenty other EVs 
scrambling to get the charging cords stretched
out to the adjacent parking spots when available,  there are 4 L2 charging 
spots and a few other L1 spaces for
opportunity charging, but I see adjacent non-EV charging spaces with EVs in 
them and cords stretched to the max
to reach those spaces, while the S sits there the whole day every day not 
charging.
Apparently, that person does not want to get the message, so unless the 
policies are changed and he is towed,
he is going to block the charging spot for everyone

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Lawrence Harris via EV
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 12:43 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Lawrence Harris
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Combating ICED EV parking spaces

It works both ways too.  I often see EV’s or plug in hybrids parked in the EV 
spot with either the charger not plugged or the charger at end of cycle.

As was noted it’s an EV charging spot, not an EV parking spot.  I often don’t 
bother with the EV spot because I don’t need the charge.

Regards,
Lawrence Harris
lhar...@haritech.com




> On Dec 13, 2017, at 12:26, brucedp5 via EV  wrote:
> 
> 
> http://thenewswheel.com/does-putting-a-potato-in-a-cars-tailpipe-actua
> lly-cause-damage/ ... stuffing party horns in a car’s tailpipe is a 
> lot funnier ...
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4VLl-qghAY
> 
> No one should cause harm to the ice offender or their property.
> 
> Getting everyone to understand, an EV spot is NOT a parking spot.
> *It is a charging spot.
> 
> There should be EV charging spot signage stating tow-away & fines if 
> non-EVs block the EV charging spot. And there must be a city or campus 
> ordinance to back the signage up. City or campus police then need to 
> be educated by making that ordinance part of their SOP (standard operating 
> procedure).
> Then you can call the police to enforce the ordinance by towing the 
> ice away (the ice offender won't do that again).
> 
> 
> 
>> a bumper sticker that reads "I hate polar bears so much I park in EV
> spaces<
> 
> --
> Sent from: 
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/
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> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> 

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Re: [EVDL] Combating ICED EV parking spaces

[Lawrence Harris via EV]

It works both ways too.  I often see EV’s or plug in hybrids parked in the EV 
spot with either the charger not plugged or the charger at end of cycle.

As was noted it’s an EV charging spot, not an EV parking spot.  I often don’t 
bother with the EV spot because I don’t need the charge.

Regards,
Lawrence Harris
lhar...@haritech.com




> On Dec 13, 2017, at 12:26, brucedp5 via EV  wrote:
> 
> 
> http://thenewswheel.com/does-putting-a-potato-in-a-cars-tailpipe-actually-cause-damage/
> ... stuffing party horns in a car’s tailpipe is a lot funnier ...
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4VLl-qghAY
> 
> No one should cause harm to the ice offender or their property.
> 
> Getting everyone to understand, an EV spot is NOT a parking spot.
> *It is a charging spot.
> 
> There should be EV charging spot signage stating tow-away & fines if non-EVs
> block the EV charging spot. And there must be a city or campus ordinance to
> back the signage up. City or campus police then need to be educated by
> making that ordinance part of their SOP (standard operating procedure). 
> Then you can call the police to enforce the ordinance by towing the ice away
> (the ice offender won't do that again).
> 
> 
> 
>> a bumper sticker that reads "I hate polar bears so much I park in EV
> spaces<
> 
> --
> Sent from: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/
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Re: [EVDL] Combating ICED EV parking spaces

[brucedp5 via EV]

http://thenewswheel.com/does-putting-a-potato-in-a-cars-tailpipe-actually-cause-damage/
 ... stuffing party horns in a car’s tailpipe is a lot funnier ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4VLl-qghAY

No one should cause harm to the ice offender or their property.

Getting everyone to understand, an EV spot is NOT a parking spot.
*It is a charging spot.

There should be EV charging spot signage stating tow-away & fines if non-EVs
block the EV charging spot. And there must be a city or campus ordinance to
back the signage up. City or campus police then need to be educated by
making that ordinance part of their SOP (standard operating procedure). 
Then you can call the police to enforce the ordinance by towing the ice away
(the ice offender won't do that again).



>a bumper sticker that reads "I hate polar bears so much I park in EV
spaces<

--
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Re: [EVDL] Combating ICED EV parking spaces

[Dan Baker via EV]

I was maliciously thinking the same, but a bumper sticker that reads "I
hate polar bears so much I park in EV spaces" lol.

On Dec 13, 2017 2:50 PM, "Peri Hartman via EV"  wrote:

> How about a sticker for the gas cap?
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Bill Dube via EV" 
> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> Cc: "Bill Dube" 
> Sent: 13-Dec-17 11:47:51 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Combating ICED EV parking spaces
>
> Maybe someone will come up with a realistic, elaborately folded, paper
>> origami "Denver boot" as a humorous reminder not to park where you are not
>> supposed to.
>>
>> An origami Denver boot might get their attention, or might not, but it
>> certainly wouldn't make someone too angry, at least someone with an iota of
>> humor.
>>
>> Bill D.
>>
>>
>> On 12/13/2017 11:41 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:
>>
>>> I just let the police deal with it.  If possible nose in somewhere and
>>> plug in.  So far hasn't been a problem.  I guess I've been lucky or
>>> growing  conscience awareness of drivers is catching on.  Marking's and
>>> signs help.  Lawrence Rhodes
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>>>
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Re: [EVDL] Combating ICED EV parking spaces

[Peri Hartman via EV]

How about a sticker for the gas cap?

-- Original Message --
From: "Bill Dube via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "Bill Dube" 
Sent: 13-Dec-17 11:47:51 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Combating ICED EV parking spaces

Maybe someone will come up with a realistic, elaborately folded, paper 
origami "Denver boot" as a humorous reminder not to park where you are 
not supposed to.


An origami Denver boot might get their attention, or might not, but it 
certainly wouldn't make someone too angry, at least someone with an 
iota of humor.


Bill D.


On 12/13/2017 11:41 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:
I just let the police deal with it.  If possible nose in somewhere and 
plug in.  So far hasn't been a problem.  I guess I've been lucky or 
growing  conscience awareness of drivers is catching on.  Marking's 
and signs help.  Lawrence Rhodes

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Re: [EVDL] Combating ICED EV parking spaces

[Bill Dube via EV]

Maybe someone will come up with a realistic, elaborately folded, paper 
origami "Denver boot" as a humorous reminder not to park where you are 
not supposed to.


An origami Denver boot might get their attention, or might not, but it 
certainly wouldn't make someone too angry, at least someone with an iota 
of humor.


Bill D.


On 12/13/2017 11:41 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

I just let the police deal with it.  If possible nose in somewhere and plug in. 
 So far hasn't been a problem.  I guess I've been lucky or growing  conscience 
awareness of drivers is catching on.  Marking's and signs help.  Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] Combating ICED EV parking spaces

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

I just let the police deal with it.  If possible nose in somewhere and plug in. 
 So far hasn't been a problem.  I guess I've been lucky or growing  conscience 
awareness of drivers is catching on.  Marking's and signs help.  Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] Combating ICED EV parking spaces

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

They were put at the most convenient spots because we wanted those who might 
become early adopters and those that create emissions to have an incentive for 
doing so.

Those that put them in got (and still get) incentives, too.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 12, 2017, at 12:53 PM, Jorg Brown via EV  wrote:
> 
> On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 6:57 AM, Peri Hartman via EV 
> wrote:
> 
>> Yep, the first impulse is to be reactive. Unless you have the force to
>> win, that usually results in an escalation or divisiveness. I read a
>> political advice comment by someone who essentially recommended:
>> 
>> - first agree with the person,
>> - listen, build trust,
>> - then present your needs without pushing an agenda.
>> 
>> Meaning: understand that he sees no harm in parking in a space that is
>> always vacant. You never know what the solution may turn out to be until
>> you hear more. In your case, it might be hard to have that conversation,
>> but a note with a phone number or email address could be a start.
> 
> 
> I agree: you have to start out trying to understand their position, and
> then see how you can bring them to your side.
> 
> Something to the effect of "I understand you probably don't see any harm in
> parking here, since this space is usually vacant.  And certainly, if this
> were the only vacant spot, and you were only going to be here a few
> minutes, you'd probably park here.  However please understand that for an
> electric vehicle owner like me, this spot is like my gas station - I have
> to park at spots like this fo "fill up".   Just as you wouldn't park next
> to a pump at a gas station if you weren't filling up with gas, please don't
> park here unless you're filling up with electricity."
> 
> As a side note, this is why I tell anyone who'll listen that the best spots
> for EV charging are those spots that are inconvenient.  Unfortunately the
> reality of existing electricity outlets/connections makes that infeasible
> much of the time.
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Re: [EVDL] Combating ICED EV parking spaces

[Jorg Brown via EV]

On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 5:16 PM, Mark Abramowitz 
wrote:

> They were put at the most convenient spots because we wanted those who
> might become early adopters and those that create emissions to have an
> incentive for doing so.
>

Yeah, I know; I remember those days and it seemed like a good idea at the
time.  I still know of places that have a "hybrid or electric car parking
only" sign, even though there is no charger there.

It works fine unless there is a shortage of parking spaces.  Once there's a
shortage, the situation changes: now you're not just saying that the
non-hybrid folks have to walk further; you're telling them that they may
have to walk much, much further, or even not come at all.  Not such a big
deal if there are often EVs or Hybrids in those spots, but if those spots
are usually empty, you just create resentment.  And resentment plays into
the hands of the "long tailpipe" crowd.

It's not just EV spots where this happens: here at work there is a shortage
of parking, but the handicapped spots and pregnant-mother spots are often
empty.
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Re: [EVDL] Combating ICED EV parking spaces

[Lee Hart via EV]

Cal Frye via EV wrote:
I've thought of getting a J1773 extension cable, bright orange and 
marked "High Voltage" to drape across the intervening cars between me 
and the charger. See who's brave enough to move that puppy!


I did not get keys when I bought my ComutaVan (rescued it from a 
junkyard, actually). I had a key made for the ignition; but didn't have 
one for the doors, so I could not lock it.


I bought one of those "Danger - High Voltage" warning signs, and put it 
in the window. No one bothered it; in fact, they wouldn't even come near it.


One day, I happened to park in a puddle in the parking lot. As I was 
walking to it, there was a mother and her little boy walking past it. 
The little boy was interested, and headed right for my ComutaVan. The 
mom grabbed him in a panic, and pulled him away. She wouldn't even let 
him touch the puddle!


--
If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we
belong to each other. -- Mother Teresa
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

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Re: [EVDL] Combating ICED EV parking spaces

[Jorg Brown via EV]

On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 6:57 AM, Peri Hartman via EV 
wrote:

> Yep, the first impulse is to be reactive. Unless you have the force to
> win, that usually results in an escalation or divisiveness. I read a
> political advice comment by someone who essentially recommended:
>
> - first agree with the person,
> - listen, build trust,
> - then present your needs without pushing an agenda.
>
> Meaning: understand that he sees no harm in parking in a space that is
> always vacant. You never know what the solution may turn out to be until
> you hear more. In your case, it might be hard to have that conversation,
> but a note with a phone number or email address could be a start.


I agree: you have to start out trying to understand their position, and
then see how you can bring them to your side.

Something to the effect of "I understand you probably don't see any harm in
parking here, since this space is usually vacant.  And certainly, if this
were the only vacant spot, and you were only going to be here a few
minutes, you'd probably park here.  However please understand that for an
electric vehicle owner like me, this spot is like my gas station - I have
to park at spots like this fo "fill up".   Just as you wouldn't park next
to a pump at a gas station if you weren't filling up with gas, please don't
park here unless you're filling up with electricity."

As a side note, this is why I tell anyone who'll listen that the best spots
for EV charging are those spots that are inconvenient.  Unfortunately the
reality of existing electricity outlets/connections makes that infeasible
much of the time.
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Re: [EVDL] Combating ICED EV parking spaces

[Cal Frye via EV]

I've thought of getting a J1773 extension cable, bright orange and 
marked "High Voltage" to drape across the intervening cars between me 
and the charger. See who's brave enough to move that puppy!

Cal


Dan Baker via EV 
December 12, 2017 at 10:06 AM
... I have noticed there is one ICE car
that is there before me in the am and parks in the same EV spot every day,
even though the lot is mostly empty at that point. So this one looks to be
a true non-believer or even hater.


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Re: [EVDL] Combating ICED EV parking spaces

[Cal Frye via EV]

Don't wanna brag, but my employer does not charge for charging... at 
least not yet. I do appreciate those chargers in Kent, one way from my 
home in Oberlin to Kent just about drains the Leaf entirely.

Cal


Rod Hower via EV 
December 11, 2017 at 6:31 PM
There are 4 parking spots for EV's in the deck at downtown Kent.  Work 
pays for me to park in the deck but the Chargepoint chargers cost 35 
cents/kWhr (and that's the discounted rate for people that have deck 
parking, otherwise it's 54 cents/kWhr).  It's cheaper just to use gas 
in the Volt, so I don't charge there.  It's 42 miles round trip to 
work and in the summer I do EV only, but in the winter I have to use 
about 10 miles gas on cold days.  It would be nice if they charged a 
reasonable rate for charging!



On Monday, December 11, 2017 5:46 PM, Cal Frye via EV 
 wrote:



There is a bit of contention for spaces where I work. In my assigned
garage, there is one L2 charging station, with one space designated for
EVs. A week or so ago, the designated spot was occupied by a Volt that
seemed to have been abandoned - it was parked in the space for four days
straight, as far as I could tell.


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Re: [EVDL] Combating ICED EV parking spaces

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

Here's the link:

https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://evnut.com/docs/flyers/ev_parking_only.doc

I'm told several versions were made. The maintainer of the site where this is 
housed (EVnut.com), and the author of this one suggested a little editing - 
“This vehicle” would become “your vehicle” and some of the “Electric Vehicle 
Recharging Station” redundancy could be eliminated.



Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 8, 2017, at 4:27 AM, Dan Baker via EV  wrote:
> 
> Hey everyone thanks for the response so far.  I agree now, better to try a
> more friendly method then resort to push & threaten.  So frustrating
> though, easy to get caught up.  Would love to see some of those printed
> cards/flyers Mark!
> 
> Cheers
> Dan
> 
>> On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 5:38 PM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:
>> 
>> EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:
>> 
>>> So maybe I'd try a bit of gentle humor.
>>> 
>>> I'd park my EV behind an ICEd spot.  I'd have someone take a picture of me
>>> holding the charging cable that I'd pulled out past the ICEV toward my EV
>>> -
>>> but darn it, it just won't quite reach.
>>> 
>>> I'd make a windshield for the offending vehicles flyer with that pic, and
>>> a
>>> little text, something like "Sorry for the inconvenience, but could you
>>> please try to leave at least one of the EV chargers available?"  I'd sign
>>> it
>>> something silly like "A member of the rare and endangered Nova Scotia
>>> species, EV Driver."
>>> 
>>> That's just off the top of my head, and I'm sure you can come up with
>>> something much more creative and entertaining.
>>> 
>>> But I think the key is to (at least at first) avoid being confrontational.
>>> Assume they're polite people, which is probably easier to believe in
>>> Canada
>>> than in the US, and just need to be gently reminded of their manners.
>>> 
>>> I love it! It's worth a try. :-)
>> 
>> I remember a study on how hard it is to make signs that people will
>> actually respond to. You have to somehow make it memorable, connect with
>> the reader, and make him want to join "your" side. Humor is a good way to
>> do this.
>> 
>> For example, a sign that says simply "No littering" is completely useless.
>> In contrast, one of the most effective was an old Pogo cartoon for Earth
>> Day. It shows Pogo Possum attempting to clean up the litter in his beloved
>> swamp. The caption reads, "We have met the enemy, and he is us."
>> 
>> --
>> If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to
>> each other.
>>(Mother Teresa)
>> --
>> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
>> 
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Re: [EVDL] Combating ICED EV parking spaces

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

Yes, a bit on the strong side, though not as strong as I've seen. And there's 
always "May the fleas of a thousand camels".  Personally, I like the 
gentler and funny notices.

I suspect there's even a regional element to what will be more effective.

But now you've got several to work with.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 12, 2017, at 7:06 AM, Dan Baker via EV  wrote:
> 
> Thanks Mark!  A bit more aggressive than thought, more like I was
> originally suggesting?  Won't be able to cite any laws, don't think we have
> any yet, big plus for California to be that far ahead.
> 
> I found a site dated back to 2012 that has a link to more gentle notices.
> 
> https://www.csmonitor.com/Business/In-Gear/2012/1026/Have-you-been-ICE-d-Drivers-promote-electric-car-parking-etiquette
> 
> Not which sure which method to deploy.  I have noticed there is one ICE car
> that is there before me in the am and parks in the same EV spot every day,
> even though the lot is mostly empty at that point. So this one looks to be
> a true non-believer or even hater.
> 
> I have taken to facebook and created a local Nova Scotia Electric Vehicles
> group to promote awareness. I have posted a pic of the lot issues and have
> asked to have it shared.  I have blotted out the license plates, for now.
> 
> Cheers
> Dan
> 
> 
> 
> On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 10:30 AM, Mark Abramowitz 
> wrote:
> 
>> Here's the link:
>> 
>> https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://evnut.com/
>> docs/flyers/ev_parking_only.doc
>> 
>> I'm told several versions were made. The maintainer of the site where this
>> is housed (EVnut.com), and the author of this one suggested a little
>> editing - “This vehicle” would become “your vehicle” and some of the
>> “Electric Vehicle Recharging Station” redundancy could be eliminated.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Dec 8, 2017, at 4:27 AM, Dan Baker via EV  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hey everyone thanks for the response so far.  I agree now, better to try
>> a
>>> more friendly method then resort to push & threaten.  So frustrating
>>> though, easy to get caught up.  Would love to see some of those printed
>>> cards/flyers Mark!
>>> 
>>> Cheers
>>> Dan
>>> 
 On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 5:38 PM, Lee Hart via EV 
>> wrote:
 
 EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:
 
> So maybe I'd try a bit of gentle humor.
> 
> I'd park my EV behind an ICEd spot.  I'd have someone take a picture
>> of me
> holding the charging cable that I'd pulled out past the ICEV toward my
>> EV
> -
> but darn it, it just won't quite reach.
> 
> I'd make a windshield for the offending vehicles flyer with that pic,
>> and
> a
> little text, something like "Sorry for the inconvenience, but could you
> please try to leave at least one of the EV chargers available?"  I'd
>> sign
> it
> something silly like "A member of the rare and endangered Nova Scotia
> species, EV Driver."
> 
> That's just off the top of my head, and I'm sure you can come up with
> something much more creative and entertaining.
> 
> But I think the key is to (at least at first) avoid being
>> confrontational.
> Assume they're polite people, which is probably easier to believe in
> Canada
> than in the US, and just need to be gently reminded of their manners.
> 
> I love it! It's worth a try. :-)
 
 I remember a study on how hard it is to make signs that people will
 actually respond to. You have to somehow make it memorable, connect with
 the reader, and make him want to join "your" side. Humor is a good way
>> to
 do this.
 
 For example, a sign that says simply "No littering" is completely
>> useless.
 In contrast, one of the most effective was an old Pogo cartoon for Earth
 Day. It shows Pogo Possum attempting to clean up the litter in his
>> beloved
 swamp. The caption reads, "We have met the enemy, and he is us."
 
 --
 If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to
 each other.
   (Mother Teresa)
 --
 Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
 
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Re: [EVDL] Combating ICED EV parking spaces

[robert winfield via EV]

 we would, with great happiness and alacrity, inform the parking police of 
illegally parked ICE vehicles in extremely clearly marked spaces, and they 
would get a parking ticket (we had 8 charging spots for around 80-100 EV's). 
the ticket could not be ignored as it was a -->federal<-- ticket and they track 
down scofflaws who fail to pay tickets ($40!)
On Tuesday, December 12, 2017, 10:06:27 AM EST, Dan Baker via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 Thanks Mark!  A bit more aggressive than thought, more like I was
originally suggesting?  Won't be able to cite any laws, don't think we have
any yet, big plus for California to be that far ahead.

I found a site dated back to 2012 that has a link to more gentle notices.

https://www.csmonitor.com/Business/In-Gear/2012/1026/Have-you-been-ICE-d-Drivers-promote-electric-car-parking-etiquette

Not which sure which method to deploy.  I have noticed there is one ICE car
that is there before me in the am and parks in the same EV spot every day,
even though the lot is mostly empty at that point. So this one looks to be
a true non-believer or even hater.

I have taken to facebook and created a local Nova Scotia Electric Vehicles
group to promote awareness. I have posted a pic of the lot issues and have
asked to have it shared.  I have blotted out the license plates, for now.

Cheers
Dan



On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 10:30 AM, Mark Abramowitz 
wrote:

> Here's the link:
>
> https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://evnut.com/
> docs/flyers/ev_parking_only.doc
>
> I'm told several versions were made. The maintainer of the site where this
> is housed (EVnut.com), and the author of this one suggested a little
> editing - “This vehicle” would become “your vehicle” and some of the
> “Electric Vehicle Recharging Station” redundancy could be eliminated.
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Dec 8, 2017, at 4:27 AM, Dan Baker via EV  wrote:
> >
> > Hey everyone thanks for the response so far.  I agree now, better to try
> a
> > more friendly method then resort to push & threaten.  So frustrating
> > though, easy to get caught up.  Would love to see some of those printed
> > cards/flyers Mark!
> >
> > Cheers
> > Dan
> >
> >> On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 5:38 PM, Lee Hart via EV 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:
> >>
> >>> So maybe I'd try a bit of gentle humor.
> >>>
> >>> I'd park my EV behind an ICEd spot.  I'd have someone take a picture
> of me
> >>> holding the charging cable that I'd pulled out past the ICEV toward my
> EV
> >>> -
> >>> but darn it, it just won't quite reach.
> >>>
> >>> I'd make a windshield for the offending vehicles flyer with that pic,
> and
> >>> a
> >>> little text, something like "Sorry for the inconvenience, but could you
> >>> please try to leave at least one of the EV chargers available?"  I'd
> sign
> >>> it
> >>> something silly like "A member of the rare and endangered Nova Scotia
> >>> species, EV Driver."
> >>>
> >>> That's just off the top of my head, and I'm sure you can come up with
> >>> something much more creative and entertaining.
> >>>
> >>> But I think the key is to (at least at first) avoid being
> confrontational.
> >>> Assume they're polite people, which is probably easier to believe in
> >>> Canada
> >>> than in the US, and just need to be gently reminded of their manners.
> >>>
> >>> I love it! It's worth a try. :-)
> >>
> >> I remember a study on how hard it is to make signs that people will
> >> actually respond to. You have to somehow make it memorable, connect with
> >> the reader, and make him want to join "your" side. Humor is a good way
> to
> >> do this.
> >>
> >> For example, a sign that says simply "No littering" is completely
> useless.
> >> In contrast, one of the most effective was an old Pogo cartoon for Earth
> >> Day. It shows Pogo Possum attempting to clean up the litter in his
> beloved
> >> swamp. The caption reads, "We have met the enemy, and he is us."
> >>
> >> --
> >> If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to
> >> each other.
> >>    (Mother Teresa)
> >> --
> >> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
> >>
> >> ___
> >> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> >> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> >> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group
> >> /NEDRA)
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> >
>
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Re: [EVDL] Combating ICED EV parking spaces

[Dan Baker via EV]

Thanks Mark!  A bit more aggressive than thought, more like I was
originally suggesting?  Won't be able to cite any laws, don't think we have
any yet, big plus for California to be that far ahead.

I found a site dated back to 2012 that has a link to more gentle notices.

https://www.csmonitor.com/Business/In-Gear/2012/1026/Have-you-been-ICE-d-Drivers-promote-electric-car-parking-etiquette

Not which sure which method to deploy.  I have noticed there is one ICE car
that is there before me in the am and parks in the same EV spot every day,
even though the lot is mostly empty at that point. So this one looks to be
a true non-believer or even hater.

I have taken to facebook and created a local Nova Scotia Electric Vehicles
group to promote awareness. I have posted a pic of the lot issues and have
asked to have it shared.  I have blotted out the license plates, for now.

Cheers
Dan



On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 10:30 AM, Mark Abramowitz 
wrote:

> Here's the link:
>
> https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://evnut.com/
> docs/flyers/ev_parking_only.doc
>
> I'm told several versions were made. The maintainer of the site where this
> is housed (EVnut.com), and the author of this one suggested a little
> editing - “This vehicle” would become “your vehicle” and some of the
> “Electric Vehicle Recharging Station” redundancy could be eliminated.
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Dec 8, 2017, at 4:27 AM, Dan Baker via EV  wrote:
> >
> > Hey everyone thanks for the response so far.  I agree now, better to try
> a
> > more friendly method then resort to push & threaten.  So frustrating
> > though, easy to get caught up.  Would love to see some of those printed
> > cards/flyers Mark!
> >
> > Cheers
> > Dan
> >
> >> On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 5:38 PM, Lee Hart via EV 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:
> >>
> >>> So maybe I'd try a bit of gentle humor.
> >>>
> >>> I'd park my EV behind an ICEd spot.  I'd have someone take a picture
> of me
> >>> holding the charging cable that I'd pulled out past the ICEV toward my
> EV
> >>> -
> >>> but darn it, it just won't quite reach.
> >>>
> >>> I'd make a windshield for the offending vehicles flyer with that pic,
> and
> >>> a
> >>> little text, something like "Sorry for the inconvenience, but could you
> >>> please try to leave at least one of the EV chargers available?"  I'd
> sign
> >>> it
> >>> something silly like "A member of the rare and endangered Nova Scotia
> >>> species, EV Driver."
> >>>
> >>> That's just off the top of my head, and I'm sure you can come up with
> >>> something much more creative and entertaining.
> >>>
> >>> But I think the key is to (at least at first) avoid being
> confrontational.
> >>> Assume they're polite people, which is probably easier to believe in
> >>> Canada
> >>> than in the US, and just need to be gently reminded of their manners.
> >>>
> >>> I love it! It's worth a try. :-)
> >>
> >> I remember a study on how hard it is to make signs that people will
> >> actually respond to. You have to somehow make it memorable, connect with
> >> the reader, and make him want to join "your" side. Humor is a good way
> to
> >> do this.
> >>
> >> For example, a sign that says simply "No littering" is completely
> useless.
> >> In contrast, one of the most effective was an old Pogo cartoon for Earth
> >> Day. It shows Pogo Possum attempting to clean up the litter in his
> beloved
> >> swamp. The caption reads, "We have met the enemy, and he is us."
> >>
> >> --
> >> If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to
> >> each other.
> >>(Mother Teresa)
> >> --
> >> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
> >>
> >> ___
> >> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> >> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> >> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group
> >> /NEDRA)
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> group/NEDRA)
> >
>
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Re: [EVDL] Combating ICED EV parking spaces

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

Is fuel cost the reason you bought a Volt?

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 11, 2017, at 3:31 PM, Rod Hower via EV  wrote:
> 
> There are 4 parking spots for EV's in the deck at downtown Kent.  Work pays 
> for me to park in the deck but the Chargepoint chargers cost 35 cents/kWhr 
> (and that's the discounted rate for people that have deck parking, otherwise 
> it's 54 cents/kWhr).  It's cheaper just to use gas in the Volt, so I don't 
> charge there.  It's 42 miles round trip to work and in the summer I do EV 
> only, but in the winter I have to use about 10 miles gas on cold days.  It 
> would be nice if they charged a reasonable rate for charging!
> 
> 
>On Monday, December 11, 2017 5:46 PM, Cal Frye via EV  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> There is a bit of contention for spaces where I work. In my assigned 
> garage, there is one L2 charging station, with one space designated for 
> EVs. A week or so ago, the designated spot was occupied by a Volt that 
> seemed to have been abandoned - it was parked in the space for four days 
> straight, as far as I could tell.
> 
> Nearby, an obstruction was marked off with several orange cones. One day 
> when I was leaving, I moved one of the cones to block the space adjacent 
> to the Volt, and sure enough, the next day that space was available for 
> me. We'll see how long I can get away with this subterfuge.
> 
> I have been contacting the parking authorities from time to time trying 
> to make a case for marking two spaces for a single charger, probably 
> time to do so again.
> 
> Cal Frye
> 
> PS - I've seen a Ford CMax, two Volts, four Leafs (including mine), an 
> i3, and a Bolt all circling the space, fortunately not all at the same 
> time. It's certainly time to request more chargers!
> 
>> Dan Baker via EV 
>> December 8, 2017 at 7:27 AM
>> Hey everyone thanks for the response so far. I agree now, better to try a
>> more friendly method then resort to push & threaten. So frustrating
>> though, easy to get caught up. Would love to see some of those printed
>> cards/flyers Mark!
>> 
>> Cheers
>> Dan
> 
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> 
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Re: [EVDL] Combating ICED EV parking spaces

[Willie via EV]

On 12/11/2017 05:31 PM, Rod Hower via EV wrote:
It's cheaper just to use gas in the Volt, so I don't charge there.  It's 
42 miles round trip to work and in the summer I do EV only, but in the 
winter I have to use about 10 miles gas on cold days.  It would be nice 
if they charged a reasonable rate for charging!


Supply and demand.  By refusing to buy, you are indicating that the 
price is too high.


The Austin electric utility has a deal with ChargePoint:  All you can 
eat for six months for $25.  For my very infrequent charging needs, even 
that is too high.

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Re: [EVDL] Combating ICED EV parking spaces

[Rod Hower via EV]

There are 4 parking spots for EV's in the deck at downtown Kent.  Work pays for 
me to park in the deck but the Chargepoint chargers cost 35 cents/kWhr (and 
that's the discounted rate for people that have deck parking, otherwise it's 54 
cents/kWhr).  It's cheaper just to use gas in the Volt, so I don't charge 
there.  It's 42 miles round trip to work and in the summer I do EV only, but in 
the winter I have to use about 10 miles gas on cold days.  It would be nice if 
they charged a reasonable rate for charging!
 

On Monday, December 11, 2017 5:46 PM, Cal Frye via EV  
wrote:
 

 There is a bit of contention for spaces where I work. In my assigned 
garage, there is one L2 charging station, with one space designated for 
EVs. A week or so ago, the designated spot was occupied by a Volt that 
seemed to have been abandoned - it was parked in the space for four days 
straight, as far as I could tell.

Nearby, an obstruction was marked off with several orange cones. One day 
when I was leaving, I moved one of the cones to block the space adjacent 
to the Volt, and sure enough, the next day that space was available for 
me. We'll see how long I can get away with this subterfuge.

I have been contacting the parking authorities from time to time trying 
to make a case for marking two spaces for a single charger, probably 
time to do so again.

Cal Frye

PS - I've seen a Ford CMax, two Volts, four Leafs (including mine), an 
i3, and a Bolt all circling the space, fortunately not all at the same 
time. It's certainly time to request more chargers!

> Dan Baker via EV 
> December 8, 2017 at 7:27 AM
> Hey everyone thanks for the response so far. I agree now, better to try a
> more friendly method then resort to push & threaten. So frustrating
> though, easy to get caught up. Would love to see some of those printed
> cards/flyers Mark!
>
> Cheers
> Dan

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Re: [EVDL] Combating ICED EV parking spaces

[Cal Frye via EV]

There is a bit of contention for spaces where I work. In my assigned 
garage, there is one L2 charging station, with one space designated for 
EVs. A week or so ago, the designated spot was occupied by a Volt that 
seemed to have been abandoned - it was parked in the space for four days 
straight, as far as I could tell.


Nearby, an obstruction was marked off with several orange cones. One day 
when I was leaving, I moved one of the cones to block the space adjacent 
to the Volt, and sure enough, the next day that space was available for 
me. We'll see how long I can get away with this subterfuge.


I have been contacting the parking authorities from time to time trying 
to make a case for marking two spaces for a single charger, probably 
time to do so again.


Cal Frye

PS - I've seen a Ford CMax, two Volts, four Leafs (including mine), an 
i3, and a Bolt all circling the space, fortunately not all at the same 
time. It's certainly time to request more chargers!



Dan Baker via EV 
December 8, 2017 at 7:27 AM
Hey everyone thanks for the response so far. I agree now, better to try a
more friendly method then resort to push & threaten. So frustrating
though, easy to get caught up. Would love to see some of those printed
cards/flyers Mark!

Cheers
Dan


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Re: [EVDL] Combating ICED EV parking spaces

[Peri Hartman via EV]

Yep, the first impulse is to be reactive. Unless you have the force to 
win, that usually results in an escalation or divisiveness. I read a 
political advice comment by someone who essentially recommended:


- first agree with the person,
- listen, build trust,
- then present your needs without pushing an agenda.

Meaning: understand that he sees no harm in parking in a space that is 
always vacant. You never know what the solution may turn out to be until 
you hear more. In your case, it might be hard to have that conversation, 
but a note with a phone number or email address could be a start.


P.S. I do like the humor approach, too. It gets the message across 
without offense.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Dan Baker via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "Dan Baker" 
Sent: 08-Dec-17 4:27:00 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Combating ICED EV parking spaces

Hey everyone thanks for the response so far.  I agree now, better to 
try a

more friendly method then resort to push & threaten.  So frustrating
though, easy to get caught up.  Would love to see some of those printed
cards/flyers Mark!

Cheers
Dan

On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 5:38 PM, Lee Hart via EV  
wrote:



EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:


So maybe I'd try a bit of gentle humor.

I'd park my EV behind an ICEd spot.  I'd have someone take a picture 
of me
holding the charging cable that I'd pulled out past the ICEV toward 
my EV

-
but darn it, it just won't quite reach.

I'd make a windshield for the offending vehicles flyer with that pic, 
and

a
little text, something like "Sorry for the inconvenience, but could 
you
please try to leave at least one of the EV chargers available?"  I'd 
sign

it
something silly like "A member of the rare and endangered Nova Scotia
species, EV Driver."

That's just off the top of my head, and I'm sure you can come up with
something much more creative and entertaining.

But I think the key is to (at least at first) avoid being 
confrontational.

Assume they're polite people, which is probably easier to believe in
Canada
than in the US, and just need to be gently reminded of their manners.

I love it! It's worth a try. :-)


I remember a study on how hard it is to make signs that people will
actually respond to. You have to somehow make it memorable, connect 
with
the reader, and make him want to join "your" side. Humor is a good way 
to

do this.

For example, a sign that says simply "No littering" is completely 
useless.
In contrast, one of the most effective was an old Pogo cartoon for 
Earth
Day. It shows Pogo Possum attempting to clean up the litter in his 
beloved

swamp. The caption reads, "We have met the enemy, and he is us."

--
If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to
each other.
 (Mother Teresa)
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

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Re: [EVDL] Combating ICED EV parking spaces

[Dan Baker via EV]

Hey everyone thanks for the response so far.  I agree now, better to try a
more friendly method then resort to push & threaten.  So frustrating
though, easy to get caught up.  Would love to see some of those printed
cards/flyers Mark!

Cheers
Dan

On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 5:38 PM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:

> EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:
>
>> So maybe I'd try a bit of gentle humor.
>>
>> I'd park my EV behind an ICEd spot.  I'd have someone take a picture of me
>> holding the charging cable that I'd pulled out past the ICEV toward my EV
>> -
>> but darn it, it just won't quite reach.
>>
>> I'd make a windshield for the offending vehicles flyer with that pic, and
>> a
>> little text, something like "Sorry for the inconvenience, but could you
>> please try to leave at least one of the EV chargers available?"  I'd sign
>> it
>> something silly like "A member of the rare and endangered Nova Scotia
>> species, EV Driver."
>>
>> That's just off the top of my head, and I'm sure you can come up with
>> something much more creative and entertaining.
>>
>> But I think the key is to (at least at first) avoid being confrontational.
>> Assume they're polite people, which is probably easier to believe in
>> Canada
>> than in the US, and just need to be gently reminded of their manners.
>>
>> I love it! It's worth a try. :-)
>
> I remember a study on how hard it is to make signs that people will
> actually respond to. You have to somehow make it memorable, connect with
> the reader, and make him want to join "your" side. Humor is a good way to
> do this.
>
> For example, a sign that says simply "No littering" is completely useless.
> In contrast, one of the most effective was an old Pogo cartoon for Earth
> Day. It shows Pogo Possum attempting to clean up the litter in his beloved
> swamp. The caption reads, "We have met the enemy, and he is us."
>
> --
> If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to
> each other.
>  (Mother Teresa)
> --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
>
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>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Combating ICED EV parking spaces

[Lee Hart via EV]

EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

So maybe I'd try a bit of gentle humor.

I'd park my EV behind an ICEd spot.  I'd have someone take a picture of me
holding the charging cable that I'd pulled out past the ICEV toward my EV -
but darn it, it just won't quite reach.

I'd make a windshield for the offending vehicles flyer with that pic, and a
little text, something like "Sorry for the inconvenience, but could you
please try to leave at least one of the EV chargers available?"  I'd sign it
something silly like "A member of the rare and endangered Nova Scotia
species, EV Driver."

That's just off the top of my head, and I'm sure you can come up with
something much more creative and entertaining.

But I think the key is to (at least at first) avoid being confrontational.
Assume they're polite people, which is probably easier to believe in Canada
than in the US, and just need to be gently reminded of their manners.


I love it! It's worth a try. :-)

I remember a study on how hard it is to make signs that people will 
actually respond to. You have to somehow make it memorable, connect with 
the reader, and make him want to join "your" side. Humor is a good way 
to do this.


For example, a sign that says simply "No littering" is completely 
useless. In contrast, one of the most effective was an old Pogo cartoon 
for Earth Day. It shows Pogo Possum attempting to clean up the litter in 
his beloved swamp. The caption reads, "We have met the enemy, and he is us."


--
If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to 
each other.

 (Mother Teresa)
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Combating ICED EV parking spaces

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

Hilarious!

More seriously, several years ago some folks on the RAV4-EV list developed a 
card or flyer to place on offending vehicles. If I get some time, I'll try to 
dig it up.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 7, 2017, at 11:42 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV  
> wrote:
> 
>> On 7 Dec 2017 at 14:51, Dan Baker via EV wrote:
>> 
>> Probably a little too drastic?
> 
> Yeah, I'd say so.
> 
> Cynic that I am, I doubt that anything is going to work.  However I see no 
> harm in starting by assuming that most of the ICEV drivers, like the one you 
> met, don't realize that anyone around there actually drives an EV.
> 
> So maybe I'd try a bit of gentle humor.  
> 
> I'd park my EV behind an ICEd spot.  I'd have someone take a picture of me 
> holding the charging cable that I'd pulled out past the ICEV toward my EV - 
> but darn it, it just won't quite reach.
> 
> I'd make a windshield for the offending vehicles flyer with that pic, and a 
> little text, something like "Sorry for the inconvenience, but could you 
> please try to leave at least one of the EV chargers available?"  I'd sign it 
> something silly like "A member of the rare and endangered Nova Scotia 
> species, EV Driver."
> 
> That's just off the top of my head, and I'm sure you can come up with 
> something much more creative and entertaining.  
> 
> But I think the key is to (at least at first) avoid being confrontational.  
> Assume they're polite people, which is probably easier to believe in Canada 
> than in the US, and just need to be gently reminded of their manners.
> 
> Good luck!
> 
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
> 
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
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> Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not 
> reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my 
> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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> 
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Combating ICED EV parking spaces

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 7 Dec 2017 at 14:51, Dan Baker via EV wrote:

> Probably a little too drastic?

Yeah, I'd say so.

Cynic that I am, I doubt that anything is going to work.  However I see no 
harm in starting by assuming that most of the ICEV drivers, like the one you 
met, don't realize that anyone around there actually drives an EV.

So maybe I'd try a bit of gentle humor.  

I'd park my EV behind an ICEd spot.  I'd have someone take a picture of me 
holding the charging cable that I'd pulled out past the ICEV toward my EV - 
but darn it, it just won't quite reach.

I'd make a windshield for the offending vehicles flyer with that pic, and a 
little text, something like "Sorry for the inconvenience, but could you 
please try to leave at least one of the EV chargers available?"  I'd sign it 
something silly like "A member of the rare and endangered Nova Scotia 
species, EV Driver."

That's just off the top of my head, and I'm sure you can come up with 
something much more creative and entertaining.  

But I think the key is to (at least at first) avoid being confrontational.  
Assume they're polite people, which is probably easier to believe in Canada 
than in the US, and just need to be gently reminded of their manners.

Good luck!

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not 
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my 
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


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