subject:"Re\: the \"nothing but\" fallacy."

Hi meekerdb  

1) That statement about Hell is hyperbole, an overstatement to get a point 
across.
Jesus also said "Nobody who does not hate his mother and father can follow me."

2) I would reply to Epicurus that if he thinks life
ios bad as it is, he has no idea how much worse it would
be without God's grace.


Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 
9/20/2012  
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen 


- Receiving the following content -  
From: meekerdb  
Receiver: everything-list  
Time: 2012-09-20, 02:01:14 
Subject: Re: the "nothing but" fallacy. 


On 9/19/2012 10:50 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: 
> On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 11:09 AM, meekerdb wrote: 
>> On 9/19/2012 5:41 PM, Jason Resch wrote: 
>> 
>> Also, the concept of a super intelligent entity torturing someone may be 
>> almost contradictory, for they may realize the identity of all minds, and 
>> therefore they would be torturing themselves. 
>> 
>> 
>> That would be an inconsistency of values, but not a logical contradiction. 
> The thing about religion is that we shouldn't believe it because it's 
> FALSE, not because it's BAD. Something could be BAD but TRUE. I find 
> it odd that both religious and anti-religious people often miss this 
> point and talk about the good or bad effects (respectively) of 
> religious belief. 

Well of course that is because almost all religions claim that their revelation 
defines  
what is good and bad, independent of mere human opinion. So if one shows that 
the  
revelation's definition of good or bad is preposterous (like an all loving God 
who  
tortures people for not worshipping Him) then at least that much of the 
theology is false. 

Brent 
"Either God wants to abolish evil and cannot; or he can, but 
does not want to; or he cannot, and does not want to. If he 
wants to, but cannot, he is impotent. If he can, but does not 
want to, he is wicked. If he neither can, nor wants to, he is 
both powerless and wicked. But if God can abolish evil, and wants 
to, then how comes evil in the world?'" 
   --- Epicurus 

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Re: Re: the "nothing but" fallacy.

Hi meekerdb  

You can only find the truth of the Bible by reading it as a little child. 


Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 
9/20/2012  
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen 
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From: meekerdb  
Receiver: everything-list  
Time: 2012-09-19, 18:54:18 
Subject: Re: the "nothing but" fallacy. 


On 9/19/2012 3:12 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:  


On Wednesday, September 19, 2012 5:20:00 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote:  
On 9/19/2012 2:11 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:  


On Tuesday, September 18, 2012 5:27:13 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote:  
Hi Richard Ruquist

Obeying the commandments will not get you into heaven,  
only believing in Christ's sacrifice for us will do that.


What kind of a sacrifice is that? "I'm going to do you the biggest favor you 
can imagine, but if you don't believe in it, then my favor is worthless and 
makes anything good that you have ever done in your life a complete waste of 
time". 

If I were Satan, I would write the Bible exactly as it is, full of horrific 
promises and threats that can be interpreted in many ways. It's pretty much 
like dropping candy colored hand grenades onto a school playground. The 
grenades would say "if anyone tries to take this away from you, then they 
deserve whatever happens to them". 


But I'm curious; as a member of the EVERYTHING-list, don't you believe that 
there's a world where the Bible is essentially accurate (modulo direct 
contradictions)? 


I don't know about accurate, but there are certainly phenomenological states 
where the Bible can seem powerfully important, i.e. super-significant - for 
good or evil. 


But those are phenomenological states in this world, and apparently you think 
the qualifier "seem" means "false" in this world.  I'm asking about all those 
infinitely many other worlds? 

Brent

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: the "nothing but" fallacy.

Hi Craig Weinberg  

The devil could not write the Bible for it asks us to love God
and our neighbor.

My own take on Jesus' death is that the devil attacks everything
he hates: beauty, goodness, youth, ... . These will either go to
heaven or hell. God's justice, being all-pervasive,
has to be to make up in the next world the sorrows of this one.

Now the Bible says that whoever is least on earth will be the
highest in Heaven. So Jesus had to die the most horrible 
ignominious death, that even being the death of God's only 
son, in order to be highest in heaven. This happened with
his resurrection.





Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 
9/20/2012  
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen 


- Receiving the following content -  
From: Craig Weinberg  
Receiver: everything-list  
Time: 2012-09-19, 17:11:45 
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: the "nothing but" fallacy. 




On Tuesday, September 18, 2012 5:27:13 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote: 
Hi Richard Ruquist

Obeying the commandments will not get you into heaven,  
only believing in Christ's sacrifice for us will do that.


What kind of a sacrifice is that? "I'm going to do you the biggest favor you 
can imagine, but if you don't believe in it, then my favor is worthless and 
makes anything good that you have ever done in your life a complete waste of 
time". 

If I were Satan, I would write the Bible exactly as it is, full of horrific 
promises and threats that can be interpreted in many ways. It's pretty much 
like dropping candy colored hand grenades onto a school playground. The 
grenades would say "if anyone tries to take this away from you, then they 
deserve whatever happens to them". 

Craig 

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Re: Re: the "nothing but" fallacy.

Hi Bruno Marchal  

The nazis did everything by the scientific method-
using Darwin as a guide.

Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 
9/20/2012  
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen 


- Receiving the following content -  
From: Bruno Marchal  
Receiver: everything-list  
Time: 2012-09-20, 05:45:13 
Subject: Re: the "nothing but" fallacy. 




On 20 Sep 2012, at 08:01, meekerdb wrote: 


On 9/19/2012 10:50 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: 

On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 11:09 AM, meekerdb  wrote: 

On 9/19/2012 5:41 PM, Jason Resch wrote: 



Also, the concept of a super intelligent entity torturing someone may be 

almost contradictory, for they may realize the identity of all minds, and 

therefore they would be torturing themselves. 





That would be an inconsistency of values, but not a logical contradiction. 

The thing about religion is that we shouldn't believe it because it's 

FALSE, not because it's BAD. Something could be BAD but TRUE. I find 

it odd that both religious and anti-religious people often miss this 

point and talk about the good or bad effects (respectively) of 

religious belief. 


Well of course that is because almost all religions claim that their revelation 
defines what is good and bad, independent of mere human opinion.  So if one 
shows that the revelation's definition of good or bad is preposterous (like an 
all loving God who tortures people for not worshipping Him) then at least that 
much of the theology is false. 



Yes, the hope for God is most of the time a hope for Good, and for ultimate 
justice. Of course once we do theology with the scientific method, we have to 
keep in mind not to fall in wishful thinking, even if it appears that wishful 
thinking might play a role in the building of realities (as this can't be 
excluded too). 


Of course I mean "ideal science", as the human science is also influenced by 
wishes.  







"Either God wants to abolish evil and cannot; or he can, but 
does not want to; or he cannot, and does not want to.  If he 
wants to, but cannot, he is impotent. If he can, but does not 
want to, he is wicked.  If he neither can, nor wants to, he is 
both powerless and wicked. But if God can abolish evil, and wants 
to, then how comes evil in the world?'" 
 --- Epicurus 



Good summary of a key theological problem. The platonist answer is that God is 
impotent, on this. Matter is the evil locus where God lose control, a bit like 
God cannot predict where you will feel after a self-duplication. In comp and 
Platonism (in the greek old sense, not in math), and perhaps in QM,  evil and 
matter have a similar origin: indeterminacy. 


Bruno 


http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/

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Re: Re: the "nothing but" fallacy.

Hi Bruno Marchal  

God is just but he has to apply his justice to a
contingent, imperfect world-- although Leibniz
suggests that it is the best posible world.

The scientific method cannot tell the just from the unjust.
Would you trust your fate to the scientific method ?
I sure wouldn't. 

Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 
9/20/2012  
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen 


- Receiving the following content -  
From: Bruno Marchal  
Receiver: everything-list  
Time: 2012-09-20, 05:45:13 
Subject: Re: the "nothing but" fallacy. 




On 20 Sep 2012, at 08:01, meekerdb wrote: 


On 9/19/2012 10:50 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: 

On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 11:09 AM, meekerdb  wrote: 

On 9/19/2012 5:41 PM, Jason Resch wrote: 



Also, the concept of a super intelligent entity torturing someone may be 

almost contradictory, for they may realize the identity of all minds, and 

therefore they would be torturing themselves. 





That would be an inconsistency of values, but not a logical contradiction. 

The thing about religion is that we shouldn't believe it because it's 

FALSE, not because it's BAD. Something could be BAD but TRUE. I find 

it odd that both religious and anti-religious people often miss this 

point and talk about the good or bad effects (respectively) of 

religious belief. 


Well of course that is because almost all religions claim that their revelation 
defines what is good and bad, independent of mere human opinion.  So if one 
shows that the revelation's definition of good or bad is preposterous (like an 
all loving God who tortures people for not worshipping Him) then at least that 
much of the theology is false. 



Yes, the hope for God is most of the time a hope for Good, and for ultimate 
justice. Of course once we do theology with the scientific method, we have to 
keep in mind not to fall in wishful thinking, even if it appears that wishful 
thinking might play a role in the building of realities (as this can't be 
excluded too). 


Of course I mean "ideal science", as the human science is also influenced by 
wishes.  







"Either God wants to abolish evil and cannot; or he can, but 
does not want to; or he cannot, and does not want to.  If he 
wants to, but cannot, he is impotent. If he can, but does not 
want to, he is wicked.  If he neither can, nor wants to, he is 
both powerless and wicked. But if God can abolish evil, and wants 
to, then how comes evil in the world?'" 
 --- Epicurus 



Good summary of a key theological problem. The platonist answer is that God is 
impotent, on this. Matter is the evil locus where God lose control, a bit like 
God cannot predict where you will feel after a self-duplication. In comp and 
Platonism (in the greek old sense, not in math), and perhaps in QM,  evil and 
matter have a similar origin: indeterminacy. 


Bruno 


http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/

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Re: Re: the "nothing but" fallacy.

Hi Bruno Marchal  

Everything that God does by definition is just.
God is righteous and he is justice itself.

Perhaps it is not the best, but the best possible
action in this contingent world.


Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 
9/20/2012  
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen 


- Receiving the following content -  
From: Bruno Marchal  
Receiver: everything-list  
Time: 2012-09-20, 05:28:08 
Subject: Re: the "nothing but" fallacy. 




On 20 Sep 2012, at 03:09, meekerdb wrote: 


On 9/19/2012 5:41 PM, Jason Resch wrote:  
Also, the concept of a super intelligent entity torturing someone may be almost 
contradictory, for they may realize the identity of all minds, and therefore 
they would be torturing themselves. 

That would be an inconsistency of values, but not a logical contradiction. 



Yes. And self-torture exists. It is called masochism. Is God a masochist? That 
would explain some things, but I am not sure "It" can qualify for that, as God, 
according to many religious theories, has no nameable attribute.  


Bruno 




http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/

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Re: the "nothing but" fallacy.

2012-09-20 Thread Bruno Marchal



On 20 Sep 2012, at 08:01, meekerdb wrote:


On 9/19/2012 10:50 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 11:09 AM, meekerdb   
wrote:

On 9/19/2012 5:41 PM, Jason Resch wrote:

Also, the concept of a super intelligent entity torturing someone  
may be
almost contradictory, for they may realize the identity of all  
minds, and

therefore they would be torturing themselves.


That would be an inconsistency of values, but not a logical  
contradiction.

The thing about religion is that we shouldn't believe it because it's
FALSE, not because it's BAD. Something could be BAD but TRUE. I find
it odd that both religious and anti-religious people often miss this
point and talk about the good or bad effects (respectively) of
religious belief.


Well of course that is because almost all religions claim that their  
revelation defines what is good and bad, independent of mere human  
opinion.  So if one shows that the revelation's definition of good  
or bad is preposterous (like an all loving God who tortures people  
for not worshipping Him) then at least that much of the theology is  
false.


Yes, the hope for God is most of the time a hope for Good, and for  
ultimate justice. Of course once we do theology with the scientific  
method, we have to keep in mind not to fall in wishful thinking, even  
if it appears that wishful thinking might play a role in the building  
of realities (as this can't be excluded too).


Of course I mean "ideal science", as the human science is also  
influenced by wishes.






"Either God wants to abolish evil and cannot; or he can, but
does not want to; or he cannot, and does not want to.  If he
wants to, but cannot, he is impotent. If he can, but does not
want to, he is wicked.  If he neither can, nor wants to, he is
both powerless and wicked. But if God can abolish evil, and wants
to, then how comes evil in the world?'"
 --- Epicurus


Good summary of a key theological problem. The platonist answer is  
that God is impotent, on this. Matter is the evil locus where God lose  
control, a bit like God cannot predict where you will feel after a  
self-duplication. In comp and Platonism (in the greek old sense, not  
in math), and perhaps in QM,  evil and matter have a similar origin:  
indeterminacy.


Bruno

http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



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Re: the "nothing but" fallacy.

2012-09-20 Thread Bruno Marchal



On 20 Sep 2012, at 03:09, meekerdb wrote:


On 9/19/2012 5:41 PM, Jason Resch wrote:


Also, the concept of a super intelligent entity torturing someone  
may be almost contradictory, for they may realize the identity of  
all minds, and therefore they would be torturing themselves.


That would be an inconsistency of values, but not a logical  
contradiction.


Yes. And self-torture exists. It is called masochism. Is God a  
masochist? That would explain some things, but I am not sure "It" can  
qualify for that, as God, according to many religious theories, has no  
nameable attribute.


Bruno


http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



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Re: the "nothing but" fallacy.

On 9/19/2012 10:50 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:

On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 11:09 AM, meekerdb wrote:

On 9/19/2012 5:41 PM, Jason Resch wrote:

Also, the concept of a super intelligent entity torturing someone may be
almost contradictory, for they may realize the identity of all minds, and
therefore they would be torturing themselves.

That would be an inconsistency of values, but not a logical contradiction.

The thing about religion is that we shouldn't believe it because it's
FALSE, not because it's BAD. Something could be BAD but TRUE. I find
it odd that both religious and anti-religious people often miss this
point and talk about the good or bad effects (respectively) of
religious belief.

Well of course that is because almost all religions claim that their revelation defines
what is good and bad, independent of mere human opinion. So if one shows that the
revelation's definition of good or bad is preposterous (like an all loving God who
tortures people for not worshipping Him) then at least that much of the theology is false.

Brent
"Either God wants to abolish evil and cannot; or he can, but
does not want to; or he cannot, and does not want to. If he
wants to, but cannot, he is impotent. If he can, but does not
want to, he is wicked. If he neither can, nor wants to, he is
both powerless and wicked. But if God can abolish evil, and wants
to, then how comes evil in the world?'"
--- Epicurus

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Re: the "nothing but" fallacy.

2012-09-19 Thread Stathis Papaioannou

On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 11:09 AM, meekerdb  wrote:
> On 9/19/2012 5:41 PM, Jason Resch wrote:
>
> Also, the concept of a super intelligent entity torturing someone may be
> almost contradictory, for they may realize the identity of all minds, and
> therefore they would be torturing themselves.
>
>
> That would be an inconsistency of values, but not a logical contradiction.

The thing about religion is that we shouldn't believe it because it's
FALSE, not because it's BAD. Something could be BAD but TRUE. I find
it odd that both religious and anti-religious people often miss this
point and talk about the good or bad effects (respectively) of
religious belief.


-- 
Stathis Papaioannou

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Re: the "nothing but" fallacy.

2012-09-19 Thread Jason Resch

On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 8:09 PM, meekerdb  wrote:

>  On 9/19/2012 5:41 PM, Jason Resch wrote:
>
> Also, the concept of a super intelligent entity torturing someone may be
> almost contradictory, for they may realize the identity of all minds, and
> therefore they would be torturing themselves.
>
>
> That would be an inconsistency of values, but not a logical contradiction.
>
>
True, it is not a logical contradiction.  There may be a sociopathic super
intelligence, but I tend to believe that as intelligence goes to infinity
that values tend to converge on a more or less common ground.  So such
"sadistic Gods" are hopefully rare.

Jason

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Re: the "nothing but" fallacy.



On Wednesday, September 19, 2012 7:48:33 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote:
>
>  On 9/19/2012 4:34 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: 
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, September 19, 2012 6:54:25 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: 
>>
>>  On 9/19/2012 3:12 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: 
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wednesday, September 19, 2012 5:20:00 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: 
>>>
>>>  On 9/19/2012 2:11 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: 
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, September 18, 2012 5:27:13 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote: 

 Hi Richard Ruquist   

 Obeying the commandments will not get you into heaven, 
 only believing in Christ's sacrifice for us will do that.   

>>>
>>> What kind of a sacrifice is that? "I'm going to do you the biggest favor 
>>> you can imagine, but if you don't believe in it, then my favor is worthless 
>>> and makes anything good that you have ever done in your life a complete 
>>> waste of time".
>>>
>>> If I were Satan, I would write the Bible exactly as it is, full of 
>>> horrific promises and threats that can be interpreted in many ways. It's 
>>> pretty much like dropping candy colored hand grenades onto a school 
>>> playground. The grenades would say "if anyone tries to take this away from 
>>> you, then they deserve whatever happens to them".
>>>  
>>>
>>> But I'm curious; as a member of the EVERYTHING-list, don't you believe 
>>> that there's a world where the Bible is essentially accurate (modulo direct 
>>> contradictions)?
>>>  
>>
>> I don't know about accurate, but there are certainly phenomenological 
>> states where the Bible can seem powerfully important, i.e. 
>> super-significant - for good or evil.
>>  
>>
>> But those are phenomenological states in this world, and apparently you 
>> think the qualifier "seem" means "false" in this world.  I'm asking about 
>> all those infinitely many other worlds?
>>  
>
> The phenomenological states and the sense that they make of each other are 
> the only worlds that there are. Seeming is not false, rather truth is 
> nothing but mutually overlapping seeming among more and more worlds. 
>
>
> Seeming to whom?...more and more Craigs?
>
>  In this case, there seems to me to be much more overlapping seeming 
> outside of the Bible than inside of it.
>  
>
> So is this a purely personal seeming to you?  Polls show it's a minority 
> seeming in the U.S.
>

Yes. It seems to me personally that the Bible refers primarily to 
figurative phenomenological experiences rather than literal public realism.

Craig
 

>
> Brent
>  

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Re: the "nothing but" fallacy.


On 9/19/2012 5:41 PM, Jason Resch wrote:
Also, the concept of a super intelligent entity torturing someone may be almost 
contradictory, for they may realize the identity of all minds, and therefore they would 
be torturing themselves.


That would be an inconsistency of values, but not a logical contradiction.

Brent

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Re: the "nothing but" fallacy.

2012-09-19 Thread Jason Resch

On Sep 19, 2012, at 4:19 PM, meekerdb wrote:

On 9/19/2012 2:11 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:

On Tuesday, September 18, 2012 5:27:13 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote:
Hi Richard Ruquist

Obeying the commandments will not get you into heaven,
only believing in Christ's sacrifice for us will do that.

What kind of a sacrifice is that? "I'm going to do you the biggest
favor you can imagine, but if you don't believe in it, then my
favor is worthless and makes anything good that you have ever done
in your life a complete waste of time".

If I were Satan, I would write the Bible exactly as it is, full of
horrific promises and threats that can be interpreted in many ways.
It's pretty much like dropping candy colored hand grenades onto a
school playground. The grenades would say "if anyone tries to take
this away from you, then they deserve whatever happens to them".

But I'm curious; as a member of the EVERYTHING-list, don't you
believe that there's a world where the Bible is essentially accurate
(modulo direct contradictions)?

Well no one can hold on to a soul forever, at all times there is a
chance you will escape their grip and find yourself elsewhere.

Also, the concept of a super intelligent entity torturing someone may
be almost contradictory, for they may realize the identity of all
minds, and therefore they would be torturing themselves.

Self contradictions aside, all religions are true with some relative
probability. That is to say, in this world, some fractions of the
explanations for it's existence is because a Christian god created it,
in another fraction it is because brahma (a Hindu god) is dreaming it,
and so on.

Jason

Brent
"Our Bible reveals to us the character of our god with minute
and remorseless exactness... It is perhaps the most damnatory
biography that exists in print anywhere. It makes Nero an angel of
light and leading by contrast"

--- Mark Twain
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Re: the "nothing but" fallacy.


On 9/19/2012 4:34 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:



On Wednesday, September 19, 2012 6:54:25 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote:

On 9/19/2012 3:12 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:



On Wednesday, September 19, 2012 5:20:00 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote:

On 9/19/2012 2:11 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:



On Tuesday, September 18, 2012 5:27:13 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote:

Hi Richard Ruquist

Obeying the commandments will not get you into heaven,
only believing in Christ's sacrifice for us will do that.


What kind of a sacrifice is that? "I'm going to do you the biggest 
favor you
can imagine, but if you don't believe in it, then my favor is worthless 
and
makes anything good that you have ever done in your life a complete 
waste of
time".

If I were Satan, I would write the Bible exactly as it is, full of 
horrific
promises and threats that can be interpreted in many ways. It's pretty 
much
like dropping candy colored hand grenades onto a school playground. The
grenades would say "if anyone tries to take this away from you, then 
they
deserve whatever happens to them".


But I'm curious; as a member of the EVERYTHING-list, don't you believe 
that
there's a world where the Bible is essentially accurate (modulo direct
contradictions)?


I don't know about accurate, but there are certainly phenomenological 
states where
the Bible can seem powerfully important, i.e. super-significant - for good 
or evil.


But those are phenomenological states in this world, and apparently you 
think the
qualifier "seem" means "false" in this world.  I'm asking about all those 
infinitely
many other worlds?


The phenomenological states and the sense that they make of each other are the only 
worlds that there are. Seeming is not false, rather truth is nothing but mutually 
overlapping seeming among more and more worlds.


Seeming to whom?...more and more Craigs?

In this case, there seems to me to be much more overlapping seeming outside of the Bible 
than inside of it.


So is this a purely personal seeming to you?  Polls show it's a minority 
seeming in the U.S.

Brent

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Re: the "nothing but" fallacy.



On Wednesday, September 19, 2012 6:54:25 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote:
>
>  On 9/19/2012 3:12 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: 
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, September 19, 2012 5:20:00 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: 
>>
>>  On 9/19/2012 2:11 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: 
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tuesday, September 18, 2012 5:27:13 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote: 
>>>
>>> Hi Richard Ruquist   
>>>
>>> Obeying the commandments will not get you into heaven, 
>>> only believing in Christ's sacrifice for us will do that.   
>>>
>>
>> What kind of a sacrifice is that? "I'm going to do you the biggest favor 
>> you can imagine, but if you don't believe in it, then my favor is worthless 
>> and makes anything good that you have ever done in your life a complete 
>> waste of time".
>>
>> If I were Satan, I would write the Bible exactly as it is, full of 
>> horrific promises and threats that can be interpreted in many ways. It's 
>> pretty much like dropping candy colored hand grenades onto a school 
>> playground. The grenades would say "if anyone tries to take this away from 
>> you, then they deserve whatever happens to them".
>>  
>>
>> But I'm curious; as a member of the EVERYTHING-list, don't you believe 
>> that there's a world where the Bible is essentially accurate (modulo direct 
>> contradictions)?
>>  
>
> I don't know about accurate, but there are certainly phenomenological 
> states where the Bible can seem powerfully important, i.e. 
> super-significant - for good or evil.
>  
>
> But those are phenomenological states in this world, and apparently you 
> think the qualifier "seem" means "false" in this world.  I'm asking about 
> all those infinitely many other worlds?
>

The phenomenological states and the sense that they make of each other are 
the only worlds that there are. Seeming is not false, rather truth is 
nothing but mutually overlapping seeming among more and more worlds. In 
this case, there seems to me to be much more overlapping seeming outside of 
the Bible than inside of it.

Craig

>
> Brent
>  

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Re: the "nothing but" fallacy.


On 9/19/2012 3:12 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:



On Wednesday, September 19, 2012 5:20:00 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote:

On 9/19/2012 2:11 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:



On Tuesday, September 18, 2012 5:27:13 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote:

Hi Richard Ruquist

Obeying the commandments will not get you into heaven,
only believing in Christ's sacrifice for us will do that.


What kind of a sacrifice is that? "I'm going to do you the biggest favor 
you can
imagine, but if you don't believe in it, then my favor is worthless and 
makes
anything good that you have ever done in your life a complete waste of 
time".

If I were Satan, I would write the Bible exactly as it is, full of horrific
promises and threats that can be interpreted in many ways. It's pretty much 
like
dropping candy colored hand grenades onto a school playground. The grenades 
would
say "if anyone tries to take this away from you, then they deserve whatever 
happens
to them".


But I'm curious; as a member of the EVERYTHING-list, don't you believe that 
there's
a world where the Bible is essentially accurate (modulo direct 
contradictions)?


I don't know about accurate, but there are certainly phenomenological states where the 
Bible can seem powerfully important, i.e. super-significant - for good or evil.


But those are phenomenological states in this world, and apparently you think the 
qualifier "seem" means "false" in this world.  I'm asking about all those infinitely many 
other worlds?


Brent

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Re: the "nothing but" fallacy.



On Wednesday, September 19, 2012 5:20:00 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote:
>
>  On 9/19/2012 2:11 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: 
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, September 18, 2012 5:27:13 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote: 
>>
>> Hi Richard Ruquist   
>>
>> Obeying the commandments will not get you into heaven, 
>> only believing in Christ's sacrifice for us will do that.   
>> 
>>
>
> What kind of a sacrifice is that? "I'm going to do you the biggest favor 
> you can imagine, but if you don't believe in it, then my favor is worthless 
> and makes anything good that you have ever done in your life a complete 
> waste of time".
>
> If I were Satan, I would write the Bible exactly as it is, full of 
> horrific promises and threats that can be interpreted in many ways. It's 
> pretty much like dropping candy colored hand grenades onto a school 
> playground. The grenades would say "if anyone tries to take this away from 
> you, then they deserve whatever happens to them".
>  
>
> But I'm curious; as a member of the EVERYTHING-list, don't you believe 
> that there's a world where the Bible is essentially accurate (modulo direct 
> contradictions)?
>

I don't know about accurate, but there are certainly phenomenological 
states where the Bible can seem powerfully important, i.e. 
super-significant - for good or evil.

Craig 


> Brent
> "Our Bible reveals to us the character of our god with minute and 
> remorseless exactness... It is perhaps the most damnatory biography that 
> exists in print anywhere. It makes Nero an angel of light and leading by 
> contrast"
>  --- Mark Twain
>  

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Re: the "nothing but" fallacy.

On 9/19/2012 2:11 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:

On Tuesday, September 18, 2012 5:27:13 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote:

Hi Richard Ruquist

Obeying the commandments will not get you into heaven,
only believing in Christ's sacrifice for us will do that.

What kind of a sacrifice is that? "I'm going to do you the biggest favor you can
imagine, but if you don't believe in it, then my favor is worthless and makes anything
good that you have ever done in your life a complete waste of time".

If I were Satan, I would write the Bible exactly as it is, full of horrific promises and
threats that can be interpreted in many ways. It's pretty much like dropping candy
colored hand grenades onto a school playground. The grenades would say "if anyone tries
to take this away from you, then they deserve whatever happens to them".

But I'm curious; as a member of the EVERYTHING-list, don't you believe that there's a
world where the Bible is essentially accurate (modulo direct contradictions)?

Brent
"Our Bible reveals to us the character of our god with minute and remorseless exactness...
It is perhaps the most damnatory biography that exists in print anywhere. It makes Nero an
angel of light and leading by contrast"

--- Mark Twain

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: the "nothing but" fallacy.

On Tuesday, September 18, 2012 5:27:13 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote:
>
> Hi Richard Ruquist   
>
> Obeying the commandments will not get you into heaven, 
> only believing in Christ's sacrifice for us will do that.   
> 
>

What kind of a sacrifice is that? "I'm going to do you the biggest favor 
you can imagine, but if you don't believe in it, then my favor is worthless 
and makes anything good that you have ever done in your life a complete 
waste of time".

If I were Satan, I would write the Bible exactly as it is, full of horrific 
promises and threats that can be interpreted in many ways. It's pretty much 
like dropping candy colored hand grenades onto a school playground. The 
grenades would say "if anyone tries to take this away from you, then they 
deserve whatever happens to them".

Craig

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Re: Re: the "nothing but" fallacy.

2012-09-19 Thread Roger Clough

Hi Bruno March

I was brought up in a loving Lutheran home, nothing like
the monster land Brent invents. Such homes must be rare. 

Most children brought up in a fundmentalist home get back at their
parents by becoming atheists.

Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
9/19/2012 
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen

- Receiving the following content - 
From: Bruno Marchal 
Receiver: everything-list 
Time: 2012-09-19, 09:19:54
Subject: Re: the "nothing but" fallacy.

On 18 Sep 2012, at 18:55, John Clark wrote:

On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 5:26 AM, Roger Clough  wrote:

> Obeying the commandments will not get you into heaven, only believing in 
> Christ's sacrifice for us will do that.

And you know that because you were told it over and over again from the very 
moment you learned language, and everything that adults tell young children is 
always 100% true. 

Roger, I agree with Clark on this. Also, for someone who did not get a 
christian education, to believe that those who does not believe in, or are just 
not aware of, Jesus, go to hell, seems beyond ridiculous, and socially 
dangerous, as it encourages people to practice the argument per authority 
(which is the wrongest argument ever, especially in religious matter).

Bruno

http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: the "nothing but" fallacy.

2012-09-19 Thread John Clark

On Wed, Sep 19,  Roger Clough  wrote:

> OK, genius. So, following impeccable logic, you believe you are John
> Clark because from infancy people kept ramming down your thoat that you are
> John Clark.
>

Yes. People told me that my name was "John Clark" and like all young
children I believed them, and over the years I have found no evidence that
was untrue; adults don't always lie to children, just often. I was also
told that God exists but in this case I have found evidence that was false.

  John K Clark

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Re: the "nothing but" fallacy.

2012-09-19 Thread Bruno Marchal



On 18 Sep 2012, at 18:55, John Clark wrote:

On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 5:26 AM, Roger Clough   
wrote:


> Obeying the commandments will not get you into heaven, only  
believing in Christ's sacrifice for us will do that.


And you know that because you were told it over and over again from  
the very moment you learned language, and everything that adults  
tell young children is always 100% true.



Roger, I agree with Clark on this. Also, for someone who did not get a  
christian education, to believe that those who does not believe in, or  
are just not aware of, Jesus, go to hell, seems beyond ridiculous, and  
socially dangerous, as it encourages people to practice the argument  
per authority (which is the wrongest argument ever, especially in  
religious matter).


Bruno


http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: the "nothing but" fallacy.

2012-09-19 Thread Roger Clough

Hi John Clark  

OK, genius. So, following impeccable logic, you believe you are 
John Clark because from infancy people kept ramming down your thoat 
that you are John Clark.   


Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 
9/19/2012  
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen 


- Receiving the following content -  
From: John Clark  
Receiver: everything-list  
Time: 2012-09-18, 12:55:58 
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: the "nothing but" fallacy. 


On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 5:26 AM, Roger Clough  wrote: 


> Obeying the commandments will not get you into heaven, only believing in 
> Christ's sacrifice for us will do that. 


And you know that because you were told it over and over again from the very 
moment you learned language, and everything that adults tell young children is 
always 100% true.  

? John K Clark 

?  


? 

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: the "nothing but" fallacy.

2012-09-18 Thread John Clark

On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 Roger Clough  wrote:

> there is no indisputable reason to believe in God.
>

Yes.


> > Faith or trust is required


In other words stupidity is required.

> and that's exactly what God wants
>

God wants? GOD WANTS??!! The guy's omnipotent, God doesn't want, God has.

  John K Clark

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: the "nothing but" fallacy.

2012-09-18 Thread John Clark

On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 5:26 AM, Roger Clough  wrote:

> Obeying the commandments will not get you into heaven, only believing in
> Christ's sacrifice for us will do that.
>

And you know that because you were told it over and over again from the
very moment you learned language, and everything that adults tell young
children is always 100% true.

  John K Clark

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: the "nothing but" fallacy.

Hi John Clark  

Agreed, there is no indisputable reason to believe in God.
Faith or trust is required, and that's exactly what God
wants you to do. 

Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 
9/18/2012  
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen 

- Receiving the following content -  
From: John Clark  
Receiver: everything-list  
Time: 2012-09-17, 13:40:03 
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: the "nothing but" fallacy. 

On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 7:34 AM, Roger Clough  wrote: 

>God loved the believers and hated the nonbelievers, at least that's what the 
>Bible tells us. 

Yes that's what the Bible says, it says that a omnipotent omniscient being is 
pretending that 
He does not exist and He hates anyone that He has been successful at fooling 
and will torture 
that person as much as He can for a infinite number of years. But he loves you. 

It's easy to see why a human would push that load of crap because it gives 
influence over others,
and its easy to see why they want it taught to the very young, at that age 
anything said by a 
authority figure bypasses the critical thinking areas of the brain and directly 
becomes a axiom, 
which he will eventually pass on to his children someday; trying to peddle that 
horseshit to a 
adult for the first time would never fly. The brain just works differently when 
we're very young, its much easier to learn a language and we believe everything 
we're told. Most adults don't believe in Santa Claus even though they once did 
because they were told by their parents when they were still quite young that 
he didn't exist, if they waited until they were 17 to be informed it would be 
too late and they wouldn't have believed them because " Santa Claus exists" 
would have already have become fixed as a axiom that cannot be questioned. And 
we'd be living in a world were most adults believed in Santa Claus and were 
dreaming up all sorts of ingenious excuses why we can never manage to detect 
him or his workshop at the north pole. 

What I don't understand, because it seems so out of character, is if God does 
exist why 
He would place belief, in particular the belief in something when there is 
absolutely 
no reason for doing so, as the ultimate virtue.?  

? John K Clark  

? 

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Re: Re: the "nothing but" fallacy.

The ages of life 

When a child, you believe in Santa Claus 
When you grow up, you don't believe in Santa Claus. 
When you're old, you are Santa Claus.l 


Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 
9/18/2012  
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen 


- Receiving the following content -  
From: meekerdb  
Receiver: everything-list  
Time: 2012-09-17, 15:19:38 
Subject: Re: the "nothing but" fallacy. 


On 9/17/2012 10:40 AM, John Clark wrote:  
Most adults don't believe in Santa Claus even though they once did because they 
were told by their parents when they were still quite young that he didn't 
exist, if they waited until they were 17 to be informed it would be too late 
and they wouldn't have believed them because " Santa Claus exists" would have 
already have become fixed as a axiom that cannot be questioned. 

Curiously, most members of this mailing list are committed to the view that 
Santa Claus does exist, along with the superhuman creator being with a long 
white beard.   Although, Bruno mocks atheists for even recognizing the Big Guy 
in the Sky enough to disbelieve in Him, His existence is implicit in Everything 
exists. 

Brent

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: the "nothing but" fallacy.

Hi Richard Ruquist 

An excellent point us, because Jesus never condemned homosexuality.
He never said anything about it.

And as you say, it's not mentioned in the 10.  And the 10 as far as I know
were all that Jesus preserved. 

So Christianity doesn't have a case against homosexuality
that I can think of.


Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
9/18/2012 
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end."
Woody Allan

- Receiving the following content - 
From: Richard Ruquist 
Receiver: everything-list 
Time: 2012-09-17, 11:02:01
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: the "nothing but" fallacy.


Roger, So you must think that the jewish law condemning homosexual behavior
was eliminated by Jesus. It's not in the 10 and certainly Christians
are making a big fuss over it.
Richard

On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 8:21 AM, Roger Clough  wrote:
> Hi Richard Ruquist
>
> I was irritated because I have already answered this question.
> Jesus did away with the laws of the jews, which to my mind were
> the laws of man, not God. The Laws of God are the 10 commandments.
> They held and still do, just as God declared them.
>
> To give you a for instgance, jesus said that
> it is not what goes into a man's mouth that
> makes him unclean, it is whjat comes out of it.
>
> What does fulfillment of the law mean ?
> It means that Jesus died for breakers of those laws
> including you and me. So in that sense if you
> break the laws, his Gospel will save you.
> The Gospel is the fulfillment of the laws.
>
> You only need to accept that fact for it to be
> saved.
>
>
>
> o invent him
> so that everything could function."
> - Receiving the following content -----
> From: Richard Ruquist
> Receiver: everything-list
> Time: 2012-09-17, 07:01:49
> Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: the "nothing but" fallacy.
>
>
> I was waiting for your reply.
> Alas, Jesus was a Jew
> and Jews have 613 commandments,
> not just 10.
> Insults do not help your argument.
>
> On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 6:56 AM, Roger Clough wrote:
>> Hi Richard Ruquist
>>
>> Another drive-by shooting. Just an unsupported denial
>> and you speed off. How can you be taken seriously ?
>>
>>
>> Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
>> 9/17/2012
>> Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him
>> so that everything could function."
>>
>> - Receiving the following content -
>> From: Richard Ruquist
>> Receiver: everything-list
>> Time: 2012-09-15, 12:03:08
>> Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: the "nothing but" fallacy.
>>
>> Nonesense
>>
>> On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 8:41 AM, Roger Clough wrote:
>>> Hi Richard Ruquist
>>>
>>> He was talking about the 10 commandments.
>>> He fulfilled them with his death and res.
>>>
>>>
>>> Jesus did away for example with the dietary laws when
>>> he said that it is not what a man puts into his mouth
>>> that can make him unclean, it is what comes out of it.
>>>
>>>
>>> Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
>>> 9/15/2012
>>> Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him
>>> so that everything could function."
>>>
>>> - Receiving the following content -
>>> From: Richard Ruquist
>>> Receiver: everything-list
>>> Time: 2012-09-15, 08:08:22
>>> Subject: Re: Re: Re: the "nothing but" fallacy.
>>>
>>> Jesus did not do away with any OT laws.
>>> He said so explicitly in the Sermon on the Mount.
>>>
>>> Matthew 5:
>>> [17] "Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets;
>>> I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them.
>>> [18] For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an
>>> iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished.
>>> [19] Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and
>>> teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he
>>> who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of
>>> heaven."
>>>
>>> Roger, are you one of the least?
>>> Richard
>>>
>>> On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 7:22 AM, Roger Clough wrote:
>>>> Hi John Clark
>>>>
>>>> 1)Intelligence ? I don't think the word was available back then (Bible
>>>> days).
>>>> Russell also hadn't a clue (he admitted) as to the meaning of pragmatism.
>>>> On the other hand, Prove

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: the "nothing but" fallacy.