Re: the love torture
On 7/14/2013 2:13 PM, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: Yah! But first let us get beyond dust and bones, and then we can sweat over who gets a spanking and who gets a cookie? We ain't gonna feel the spank or the cookles if we are mindless nothingness. But my point is that religions invented an after-life not only to assuage the fear of death, but also to provide ultimate justice, to redress the wrongs of this world and assure the pious and obedient of an ultimate reward. Otherwise they might revolt. Brent "It's an incredible con job when you think of it, to believe something now in exchange for life after death. Even corporations with all their reward systems don't try to make it posthumous." Gloria Steinem, women's rights activist -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: the love torture
On 7/14/2013 10:36 AM, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: Yeah, good meme's never grow stale, do they? The virgin birth thing has always been beyond my comprehension, or sympathy. Virgin births are de rigueur for god-men. They obviously have mothers who are human, so their divinity must come from their father. But if their mother isn't a virgin why suppose a divine spirit is the father. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: the love torture
Yah! But first let us get beyond dust and bones, and then we can sweat over who gets a spanking and who gets a cookie? We ain't gonna feel the spank or the cookles if we are mindless nothingness. -Original Message- From: John Mikes To: everything-list Sent: Sun, Jul 14, 2013 5:05 pm Subject: Re: the love torture Brent wrote: But it's not the only life-after-death card. In fact Christianity borrowed heavily from Zoroastrianism: final battle, good over evil, judgement day, punishment of the wicked. BUT the punishment wasn't eternal and everybody gets to heaven eventually and nobody has to get crucified. * Life? what kind of? (terrestrial bio is a very restricted variant). Good/Bad? for whom and HOW? Who decides? Eternal? that's no time-span, not long, not even a short one. Gets to heaven? is it beyond the Orion? Zoroaster was smart. Those early religious inventors felt free to accept ideas from fellow others, no copyright then. And did not patent their own tenets (cf: JudeoChrislamism with thousands of variants today). Punishment is also smart: it keeps te 'faithful' in the flock. JM On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 10:39 AM, wrote: For sure, it seems much nicer and less power hungry. But its all familiar, and only the Iranians have animosity against the Zoroastrians. They are persucted by the Shia leadership in Tehran. Not treated well at all. Much of Christianity and other religions including Judaism, the Bahai's, etc, are like this also. All religions big and small may have been influenced by the Zoroastrians, I would guess. But there is only one faith that I am aware of, that nowadays is expanded by fire and sword, it its not the Jesus guys either. My sense of things is to place blame where it is deserved, and place credit where it is deserved. But for the non-beliver, I would say it is important not to fix the blame, but fix the problem. Mitch -Original Message- From: meekerdb To: everything-list Sent: Sat, Jul 13, 2013 6:02 pm Subject: Re: the love torture On 7/13/2013 10:04 AM, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: John, please understand from the Christian pov, that this (Christianity) is an attempt to sustain life beyond death, and so far this has been the only option for them . Jesus, for them, is the ticket out of the tragedies, and suffering, in life. Its an attempt to try to make things better, for the people they care for, and themselves. I don't see this as a philosophical arm wrresting match between Darwin and Jesus. This is the only ticket to get out of suffering-free card, and unless you have something, better, to offer, why would they give all that up? You can apply this statement, and double-down on it with Islam-which explains, the reason for jihad. I respect your point of view intellectually, and I suspect it is how our limbic systems are wired, rather then indoctrination before potty training. Some are just naturally less troubled by tragedy, or deal with it more, successfully, than the religious?? But it's not the only life-after-death card. In fact Christianity borrowed heavily from Zoroastrianism: final battle, good over evil, judgement day, punishment of the wicked. BUT the punishment wasn't eternal and everybody gets to heaven eventually and nobody has to get crucified. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To po
Re: the love torture
Brent wrote: *But it's not the only life-after-death card. In fact Christianity borrowed heavily from Zoroastrianism: final battle, good over evil, judgement day, punishment of the wicked. BUT the punishment wasn't eternal and everybody gets to heaven eventually and nobody has to get crucified.* * Life? what kind of? (terrestrial bio is a very restricted variant). Good/Bad? for whom and HOW? Who decides? Eternal? that's no time-span, not long, not even a short one. Gets to heaven? is it beyond the Orion? Zoroaster was smart. Those early religious inventors felt free to accept ideas from fellow others, no copyright then. And did not patent their own tenets (cf: JudeoChrislamism with thousands of variants today). Punishment is also smart: it keeps te 'faithful' in the flock. JM On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 10:39 AM, wrote: > For sure, it seems much nicer and less power hungry. But its all familiar, > and only the Iranians have animosity against the Zoroastrians. They are > persucted by the Shia leadership in Tehran. Not treated well at all. Much > of Christianity and other religions including Judaism, the Bahai's, etc, > are like this also. All religions big and small may have been influenced by > the Zoroastrians, I would guess. But there is only one faith that I am > aware of, that nowadays is expanded by fire and sword, it its not the Jesus > guys either. My sense of things is to place blame where it is deserved, and > place credit where it is deserved. But for the non-beliver, I would say it > is important not to fix the blame, but fix the problem. > > Mitch > > > -Original Message- > From: meekerdb > To: everything-list > Sent: Sat, Jul 13, 2013 6:02 pm > Subject: Re: the love torture > > On 7/13/2013 10:04 AM, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: > > John, please understand from the Christian pov, that this (Christianity) > is an attempt to sustain life beyond death, and so far this has been the > only option for them . Jesus, for them, is the ticket out of the tragedies, > and suffering, in life. Its an attempt to try to make things better, for > the people they care for, and themselves. I don't see this as a > philosophical arm wrresting match between Darwin and Jesus. This is the > only ticket to get out of suffering-free card, and unless you have > something, better, to offer, why would they give all that up? You can apply > this statement, and double-down on it with Islam-which explains, the reason > for jihad. I respect your point of view intellectually, and I suspect it is > how our limbic systems are wired, rather then indoctrination before potty > training. Some are just naturally less troubled by tragedy, or deal with it > more, successfully, than the religious?? > > > But it's not the only life-after-death card. In fact Christianity > borrowed heavily from Zoroastrianism: final battle, good over evil, > judgement day, punishment of the wicked. BUT the punishment wasn't eternal > and everybody gets to heaven eventually and nobody has to get crucified. > > Brent > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: the love torture
Yeah, good meme's never grow stale, do they? The virgin birth thing has always been beyond my comprehension, or sympathy. My point is while Brother Odd, gets howled at by screaming crowds of Dawkin-ites ;-) Khaleel of the bloodied beard gets a pass, because, "they're crazy!" So the Dawkinites chase after someone who probably won't actually hit them or cut them. That's my view. anyway. Mitch -Original Message- From: John Clark To: everything-list Sent: Sun, Jul 14, 2013 11:09 am Subject: Re: the love torture On Sat, Jul 13, 2013 at 6:02 PM, meekerdb wrote: > Christianity borrowed heavily from Zoroastrianism: final battle, good over > evil, judgement day, punishment of the wicked. BUT the punishment wasn't > eternal and everybody gets to heaven eventually and nobody has to get > crucified. Christianity didn't just borrow from Zoroastrianism, the Bible is a rehash of lots of other Bronze age myths that it plagiarized from older religions. The Persian God Mithra, popular in 600 BC, was the son of the Sun God and was born on December 25. Mithra performed miracles, died, and was resurrected on the third day. Mithra was also called "the good shepherd" and had twelve companions that went with him when he traveled and taught. In 1000BC people thought the God Krishna was a carpenter born of a virgin and was baptized in a river. In 1200BC according to the Egyptian Book of the Dead the God Horus was the son of the God Osiris and was born to a virgin mother (even back then contradictions never bothered religion). Horus was baptized and the baptizer was later beheaded. Horus was tempted in the desert. Horus healed the sick and the blind. Horus cast out daemons. Horus raised a fellow named "Asar" from the dead. Horus walked on water. Horus had 12 disciples. Horus was affixed to a cross and killed but after 3 days 2 women announced that "Horus our savior has been resurrected". John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: the love torture
On Sat, Jul 13, 2013 at 6:02 PM, meekerdb wrote: > Christianity borrowed heavily from Zoroastrianism: final battle, good > over evil, judgement day, punishment of the wicked. BUT the punishment > wasn't eternal and everybody gets to heaven eventually and nobody has to > get crucified. > *Christianity didn't just borrow from Zoroastrianism, the Bible is a rehash of lots of other Bronze age myths that it plagiarized from older religions. The Persian God Mithra, popular in 600 BC, was the son of the Sun God and was born on December 25. Mithra performed miracles, died, and was resurrected on the third day. Mithra was also called "the good shepherd" and had twelve companions that went with him when he traveled and taught. In 1000BC people thought the God Krishna was a carpenter born of a virgin and was baptized in a river. In 1200BC according to the Egyptian Book of the Dead the God Horus was the son of the God Osiris and was born to a virgin mother (even back then contradictions never bothered religion). Horus was baptized and the baptizer was later beheaded. Horus was tempted in the desert. Horus healed the sick and the blind. Horus cast out daemons. Horus raised a fellow named "Asar" from the dead. Horus walked on water. Horus had 12 disciples. Horus was affixed to a cross and killed but after 3 days 2 women announced that "Horus our savior has been resurrected". * *John K Clark* -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: the love torture
For sure, it seems much nicer and less power hungry. But its all familiar, and only the Iranians have animosity against the Zoroastrians. They are persucted by the Shia leadership in Tehran. Not treated well at all. Much of Christianity and other religions including Judaism, the Bahai's, etc, are like this also. All religions big and small may have been influenced by the Zoroastrians, I would guess. But there is only one faith that I am aware of, that nowadays is expanded by fire and sword, it its not the Jesus guys either. My sense of things is to place blame where it is deserved, and place credit where it is deserved. But for the non-beliver, I would say it is important not to fix the blame, but fix the problem. Mitch -Original Message- From: meekerdb To: everything-list Sent: Sat, Jul 13, 2013 6:02 pm Subject: Re: the love torture On 7/13/2013 10:04 AM, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: John, please understand from the Christian pov, that this (Christianity) is an attempt to sustain life beyond death, and so far this has been the only option for them . Jesus, for them, is the ticket out of the tragedies, and suffering, in life. Its an attempt to try to make things better, for the people they care for, and themselves. I don't see this as a philosophical arm wrresting match between Darwin and Jesus. This is the only ticket to get out of suffering-free card, and unless you have something, better, to offer, why would they give all that up? You can apply this statement, and double-down on it with Islam-which explains, the reason for jihad. I respect your point of view intellectually, and I suspect it is how our limbic systems are wired, rather then indoctrination before potty training. Some are just naturally less troubled by tragedy, or deal with it more, successfully, than the religious?? But it's not the only life-after-death card. In fact Christianity borrowed heavily from Zoroastrianism: final battle, good over evil, judgement day, punishment of the wicked. BUT the punishment wasn't eternal and everybody gets to heaven eventually and nobody has to get crucified. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: the love torture
On 7/13/2013 10:04 AM, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: John, please understand from the Christian pov, that this (Christianity) is an attempt to sustain life beyond death, and so far this has been the only option for them . Jesus, for them, is the ticket out of the tragedies, and suffering, in life. Its an attempt to try to make things better, for the people they care for, and themselves. I don't see this as a philosophical arm wrresting match between Darwin and Jesus. This is the only ticket to get out of suffering-free card, and unless you have something, better, to offer, why would they give all that up? You can apply this statement, and double-down on it with Islam-which explains, the reason for jihad. I respect your point of view intellectually, and I suspect it is how our limbic systems are wired, rather then indoctrination before potty training. Some are just naturally less troubled by tragedy, or deal with it more, successfully, than the religious?? But it's not the only life-after-death card. In fact Christianity borrowed heavily from Zoroastrianism: final battle, good over evil, judgement day, punishment of the wicked. BUT the punishment wasn't eternal and everybody gets to heaven eventually and nobody has to get crucified. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: the love torture
But they all you end up doing is that you, yourself , are not a religious fool, like the rest. Which, for me, reminds me of the dismissive humor of commedian Don Rickles, who would've jibbed: "Ah good! So now go sit in the corner and eat a cookie." In other words what is accomplished aside from pleasing one's amgdala? So are the Jesus people-in a way that you know to be..stupid. I understand that, but understanding how a stupid point of view came about does not make that point of view any less stupid. -And Jesus is also the ticket for being terrified of the afterlife. The God of the Old testament may be the most unpleasant character in all of fiction and He may have enjoyed forced cannibalism and torture, but at least once you were dead you were dead and He was finished playing with you; but not so in the New Testament of Jesus the Prince of Peace. Jesus is going to use all His infinite skill to torture you as horribly as He can for all of eternity if you take just one step out of line. But he loves you!- Yes, I get that, and it does sound like an abusive situation that a spouse has with a bad boy mate. The flaws in the abusive hubby get somehow overlooked. I am guessing that these are tales told, and strung together like so much popcorn on a thread, round a Christmas fir-or so it seems now. -How about Cryonics? It probably won't work but at least there is a chance and the concept isn't based on idiocy.- For the same reason, that you believe religion is stupid, because you know, for you, it cannot work. Purely, practical. -Then why is geography such a enormous factor in religious belief?- John, there is only one faith in the world that can now be identified as controling thought and behavior, and its georgraphy with exceptions, does not yet control, all of South America, North America, India, and East Asia-yet. This is the application of force and power that facilitates this faith, not persuasion alone, this I can tell you. Remove the force and you'd get a more varigated result. -I am no fan of tragedy and I fear death just as much as the religious do, but I know that being stupid doesn't help- Then, if one is not stupid, the answer is much easier to attain, but for some people, the world is a world of pain. Science doesn't seem to help, if, as lots of bench, scientists do, accept obliteration, for family, and friends, and merrilly, go on in life and careers, till, it becomes their problem. This is likely what we all do, but denial is not a perfect tool set. It works well, sometimes, but not always. When the scientist refuses to 'think outside the box' is what we have today. The social meme of scholars, especially academics, who don't see the problem, and feel nothing is broken, and focus on publishing papers and getting grants-but it doesn't analyze or attack the human condition. But, they've got theirs, Jack ;-) -Original Message- From: John Clark To: everything-list Sent: Sat, Jul 13, 2013 3:13 pm Subject: Re: the love torture On Sat, Jul 13, 2013 wrote: > John, please understand from the Christian pov, that this (Christianity) is > an attempt to sustain life beyond death, I understand that, but understanding how a stupid point of view came about does not make that point of view any less stupid. > Jesus, for them, is the ticket out of the tragedies, and suffering, in life. And Jesus is also the ticket for being terrified of the afterlife. The God of the Old testament may be the most unpleasant character in all of fiction and He may have enjoyed forced cannibalism and torture, but at least once you were dead you were dead and He was finished playing with you; but not so in the New Testament of Jesus the Prince of Peace. Jesus is going to use all His infinite skill to torture you as horribly as He can for all of eternity if you take just one step out of line. But he loves you! > This is the only ticket to get out of suffering-free card, and unless you > have something, better, to offer, How about Cryonics? It probably won't work but at least there is a chance and the concept isn't based on idiocy. > why would they give all that up? They won't give it up and they won't do so because mommy and daddy told them not to. Very young human children are hard wired to believe what adults tell them, and this belief usually persists into adulthood even if its brain dead dumb. > I suspect it is how our limbic systems are wired, rather then indoctrination > before potty training. Then why is geography such a enormous factor in religious belief? If you tell me the part of the world you're from I can make excellent predictions of what religious beliefs you hold with far far greater accuracy than what you'd expect from random guessing, and if I know what religious franchise your mommy an
Re: the love torture
On 13 Jul 2013, at 19:11, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote: This is a false problem perhaps and I wonder why people don't get bored with it. Science cannot rid itself of faith (whatever scientist's goal or question, however temporary), just as religion cannot rid itself of critical questions (accounting for inconsistencies, weaknesses, falsehoods in scripture, problem of evil etc.); strip away all this cultural + historical luggage, with all its different flavors and categories... and peoples' needs, idiocies and hopes are relatively similar. The militant idiots on both sides tend more to be the problem. The ones that keep insisting in absolute truth, monopoly on the facts without interpretation, total consistency, or whatever other fetish measure makes their day. PGC Well said. The problem is not in the ideas, it is when ideas are destroyed or imposed by violent means, be it with bullets or words. Ideas communicated through coercion or violence pollutes the natural mutual exchange between living ideas. In all affairs, not just religion, the interest of the individual, that is the large majority, can interfere with interest of "large minorities", making lie profitable for them in some short term. It is catastrophical ... for the next generation. It is stealing the next generation. Bruno On Sat, Jul 13, 2013 at 7:04 PM, wrote: John, please understand from the Christian pov, that this (Christianity) is an attempt to sustain life beyond death, and so far this has been the only option for them . Jesus, for them, is the ticket out of the tragedies, and suffering, in life. Its an attempt to try to make things better, for the people they care for, and themselves. I don't see this as a philosophical arm wrresting match between Darwin and Jesus. This is the only ticket to get out of suffering-free card, and unless you have something, better, to offer, why would they give all that up? You can apply this statement, and double-down on it with Islam-which explains, the reason for jihad. I respect your point of view intellectually, and I suspect it is how our limbic systems are wired, rather then indoctrination before potty training. Some are just naturally less troubled by tragedy, or deal with it more, successfully, than the religious?? Mitch -Original Message- From: John Clark To: everything-list Sent: Sat, Jul 13, 2013 12:51 pm Subject: Re: Re: the love torture On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 Alberto G. Corona wrote: > Religion is about sacrifices. I know, religion is big on sacrifices, especially Christianity, and that's the problem. It seems to me that a good rule of thumb is be suspicious of any religion who's most sacred symbol is a torture device. I suppose if Jesus had been executed in more recent times people would be wearing little gold electric chairs on chains around their neck. > the sacrifice of Christ free us from our own sacrifices. So God was so mad at the entire human race (because one of its members ate an apple when told not to) that he was prepared to torture every single one of them for an infinite number of years (but he loves you). And the only way to prevent this is for God to forgive humanity, but even though God can do anything the only way He could make Himself forgive humanity is for humanity to torture His son (who is really Himself) to death. The one and only reason that millions of adult and otherwise sane human beings believe the above load of crap is because mommy and daddy told them that from before they were properly potty trained. And that is why the devote are so keen on early religious training for children, it is the only way to get over the giggle factor. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To po
Re: the love torture
On Sat, Jul 13, 2013 wrote: > John, please understand from the Christian pov, that this (Christianity) > is an attempt to sustain life beyond death, > I understand that, but understanding how a stupid point of view came about does not make that point of view any less stupid. > Jesus, for them, is the ticket out of the tragedies, and suffering, in > life. > And Jesus is also the ticket for being terrified of the afterlife. The God of the Old testament may be the most unpleasant character in all of fiction and He may have enjoyed forced cannibalism and torture, but at least once you were dead you were dead and He was finished playing with you; but not so in the New Testament of Jesus the Prince of Peace. Jesus is going to use all His infinite skill to torture you as horribly as He can for all of eternity if you take just one step out of line. But he loves you! > > This is the only ticket to get out of suffering-free card, and unless > you have something, better, to offer, > How about Cryonics? It probably won't work but at least there is a chance and the concept isn't based on idiocy. > why would they give all that up? > They won't give it up and they won't do so because mommy and daddy told them not to. Very young human children are hard wired to believe what adults tell them, and this belief usually persists into adulthood even if its brain dead dumb. > I suspect it is how our limbic systems are wired, rather then > indoctrination before potty training. > Then why is geography such a enormous factor in religious belief? If you tell me the part of the world you're from I can make excellent predictions of what religious beliefs you hold with far far greater accuracy than what you'd expect from random guessing, and if I know what religious franchise your mommy and daddy belonged to my predictions are even better. > Some are just naturally less troubled by tragedy, or deal with it more, > successfully, than the religious?? > I am no fan of tragedy and I fear death just as much as the religious do, but I know that being stupid doesn't help. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: the love torture
This is a false problem perhaps and I wonder why people don't get bored with it. Science cannot rid itself of faith (whatever scientist's goal or question, however temporary), just as religion cannot rid itself of critical questions (accounting for inconsistencies, weaknesses, falsehoods in scripture, problem of evil etc.); strip away all this cultural + historical luggage, with all its different flavors and categories... and peoples' needs, idiocies and hopes are relatively similar. The militant idiots on both sides tend more to be the problem. The ones that keep insisting in absolute truth, monopoly on the facts without interpretation, total consistency, or whatever other fetish measure makes their day. PGC On Sat, Jul 13, 2013 at 7:04 PM, wrote: > John, please understand from the Christian pov, that this (Christianity) > is an attempt to sustain life beyond death, and so far this has been the > only option for them . Jesus, for them, is the ticket out of the tragedies, > and suffering, in life. Its an attempt to try to make things better, for > the people they care for, and themselves. I don't see this as a > philosophical arm wrresting match between Darwin and Jesus. This is the > only ticket to get out of suffering-free card, and unless you have > something, better, to offer, why would they give all that up? You can apply > this statement, and double-down on it with Islam-which explains, the reason > for jihad. I respect your point of view intellectually, and I suspect it is > how our limbic systems are wired, rather then indoctrination before potty > training. Some are just naturally less troubled by tragedy, or deal with it > more, successfully, than the religious?? > > Mitch > > > -Original Message- > From: John Clark > To: everything-list > Sent: Sat, Jul 13, 2013 12:51 pm > Subject: Re: Re: the love torture > > On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 Alberto G. Corona wrote: > > > Religion is about sacrifices. >> > > I know, religion is big on sacrifices, especially Christianity, and that's > the problem. It seems to me that a good rule of thumb is be suspicious of > any religion who's most sacred symbol is a torture device. I suppose if > Jesus had been executed in more recent times people would be wearing little > gold electric chairs on chains around their neck. > > > the sacrifice of Christ free us from our own sacrifices. >> > > So God was so mad at the entire human race (because one of its members ate > an apple when told not to) that he was prepared to torture every single one > of them for an infinite number of years (but he loves you). And the only > way to prevent this is for God to forgive humanity, but even though God can > do anything the only way He could make Himself forgive humanity is for > humanity to torture His son (who is really Himself) to death. > > The one and only reason that millions of adult and otherwise sane human > beings believe the above load of crap is because mommy and daddy told them > that from before they were properly potty trained. And that is why the > devote are so keen on early religious training for children, it is the only > way to get over the giggle factor. > > John K Clark > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: the love torture
John, please understand from the Christian pov, that this (Christianity) is an attempt to sustain life beyond death, and so far this has been the only option for them . Jesus, for them, is the ticket out of the tragedies, and suffering, in life. Its an attempt to try to make things better, for the people they care for, and themselves. I don't see this as a philosophical arm wrresting match between Darwin and Jesus. This is the only ticket to get out of suffering-free card, and unless you have something, better, to offer, why would they give all that up? You can apply this statement, and double-down on it with Islam-which explains, the reason for jihad. I respect your point of view intellectually, and I suspect it is how our limbic systems are wired, rather then indoctrination before potty training. Some are just naturally less troubled by tragedy, or deal with it more, successfully, than the religious?? Mitch -Original Message- From: John Clark To: everything-list Sent: Sat, Jul 13, 2013 12:51 pm Subject: Re: Re: the love torture On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 Alberto G. Corona wrote: > Religion is about sacrifices. I know, religion is big on sacrifices, especially Christianity, and that's the problem. It seems to me that a good rule of thumb is be suspicious of any religion who's most sacred symbol is a torture device. I suppose if Jesus had been executed in more recent times people would be wearing little gold electric chairs on chains around their neck. > the sacrifice of Christ free us from our own sacrifices. So God was so mad at the entire human race (because one of its members ate an apple when told not to) that he was prepared to torture every single one of them for an infinite number of years (but he loves you). And the only way to prevent this is for God to forgive humanity, but even though God can do anything the only way He could make Himself forgive humanity is for humanity to torture His son (who is really Himself) to death. The one and only reason that millions of adult and otherwise sane human beings believe the above load of crap is because mommy and daddy told them that from before they were properly potty trained. And that is why the devote are so keen on early religious training for children, it is the only way to get over the giggle factor. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Re: the love torture
On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 Alberto G. Corona wrote: > Religion is about sacrifices. > I know, religion is big on sacrifices, especially Christianity, and that's the problem. It seems to me that a good rule of thumb is be suspicious of any religion who's most sacred symbol is a torture device. I suppose if Jesus had been executed in more recent times people would be wearing little gold electric chairs on chains around their neck. > the sacrifice of Christ free us from our own sacrifices. > So God was so mad at the entire human race (because one of its members ate an apple when told not to) that he was prepared to torture every single one of them for an infinite number of years (but he loves you). And the only way to prevent this is for God to forgive humanity, but even though God can do anything the only way He could make Himself forgive humanity is for humanity to torture His son (who is really Himself) to death. The one and only reason that millions of adult and otherwise sane human beings believe the above load of crap is because mommy and daddy told them that from before they were properly potty trained. And that is why the devote are so keen on early religious training for children, it is the only way to get over the giggle factor. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: the love torture
Sorry,, it is not deeds, but sins. And expiation of sin against the comunity or against oneself (which also endanger the comunity) must be paid with sacrifices. In any society, for any human being. Because that is the human nature and that is the nature of game theory. If not the alternative is suicide, the ultimate sacrifice The sacrifice of Christ calm the desire for sacrifice and substitute it by less onerous sacrifices: prayer for example. That is the central point with effective pshychologial healing for every human being. You can laugh at or dismiss it. But it is evident again, in the light of game theory and evolution. See for example https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/everything-list/OxWk4otaaec/6v6Ou0XOq1QJ Brent: I´m not interested in the mithopoesis that you present, that is evidently, gnostic and therefore it is deeply antichristian. Since you are a gnostic (despite that you don´t know it), you think, in the deep, that humans can escape from the limitations of reality. evolution and game theory among them, once they are free from he oppression of shadow evil entities like capitalism, God, the Curch, The Pentagon, The Global Warming deniers, and other conspirations . Since we start from very different points of view I´m sorry I can not stablish a conversation with you. I don´t want to waste my time. (not to mention to waste my time reading the products of your sterile and biased hate against the christianity, western history, and, upto to a point, everything) 2013/7/12 meekerdb > On 7/12/2013 7:03 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: > > The sacrifice of Christ paid our deeds -once and for all- for being worth > and appreciated by other human beings. The belief on that calm our innate > desire to demand the sacrifice of the others for us and the desire to > sacrifice ourseves. > > > I was with you, Alberto, up that point. The sacrifice of Christ, which > was demanded by his Father, was for expiation of sins. Not to show he was > willing to sacrifice for the tribe. Not to show he was a team player. It > was displaced revenge. It showed God was justified in visiting great > punishment on disbelievers; punishment so great that killing His own son > exemplified His wrath. This was part and parcel of the threat of eternal > torture and slaying His enemies. "See how ruthless I can be. See how > seriously I take your impiety. I kill my own son in expiation." > > And his followers learned this lesson and applied it to the Cathars, the > Protestants, the Muslims, and Hitler visited it on the Jews. Not that it's > unique to Christianity or even to religion - as you note, any tribe can > adopt a dogma and defend it with bloodshed. > > Brent > “There is another form of temptation, even more fraught with danger. > This is the disease of curiosity…. It is this which draws us to try and > discover the secrets of nature, those secrets which are beyond our > understanding, which can avail us nothing, and which man should not wish > to learn.” > -- St. Augustine > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > -- Alberto. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: the love torture
On 12 Jul 2013, at 19:47, meekerdb wrote: On 7/12/2013 7:03 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: The sacrifice of Christ paid our deeds -once and for all- for being worth and appreciated by other human beings. The belief on that calm our innate desire to demand the sacrifice of the others for us and the desire to sacrifice ourseves. I was with you, Alberto, up that point. The sacrifice of Christ, which was demanded by his Father, was for expiation of sins. Not to show he was willing to sacrifice for the tribe. Not to show he was a team player. It was displaced revenge. It showed God was justified in visiting great punishment on disbelievers; punishment so great that killing His own son exemplified His wrath. This was part and parcel of the threat of eternal torture and slaying His enemies. "See how ruthless I can be. See how seriously I take your impiety. I kill my own son in expiation." And his followers learned this lesson and applied it to the Cathars, the Protestants, the Muslims, and Hitler visited it on the Jews. Not that it's unique to Christianity or even to religion - as you note, any tribe can adopt a dogma and defend it with bloodshed. Brent “There is another form of temptation, even more fraught with danger. This is the disease of curiosity…. It is this which draws us to try and discover the secrets of nature, those secrets which are beyond our understanding, which can avail us nothing, and which man should not wish to learn.” -- St. Augustine Yeah, ... Augustine said terrible things, and that quote is a good illustration of "bad faith", which is really the "don't ask" philosophy used by those appealing to the authoritative arguments. Now Augustine saves a large part of Plato making the Christians still less wrong than vindicative atheism when compared to comp, and Augustine statement must be relativized because of the use of violence in his neighborhood. I give you an heuristic: if a religion use even an atom of argument per authority, then you can know that it is incompatible with computationalism. In a sense, comp trust God enough to do the advertising all by Itself, and there is no intermediate between your Conscience and the Unnameable. Theurgy might still be possible, but only, to quote Alan watts, if the priest can blink. Bruno -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: the love torture
On 7/12/2013 7:03 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: The sacrifice of Christ paid our deeds -once and for all- for being worth and appreciated by other human beings. The belief on that calm our innate desire to demand the sacrifice of the others for us and the desire to sacrifice ourseves. I was with you, Alberto, up that point. The sacrifice of Christ, which was demanded by his Father, was for expiation of sins. Not to show he was willing to sacrifice for the tribe. Not to show he was a team player. It was displaced revenge. It showed God was justified in visiting great punishment on disbelievers; punishment so great that killing His own son exemplified His wrath. This was part and parcel of the threat of eternal torture and slaying His enemies. "See how ruthless I can be. See how seriously I take your impiety. I kill my own son in expiation." And his followers learned this lesson and applied it to the Cathars, the Protestants, the Muslims, and Hitler visited it on the Jews. Not that it's unique to Christianity or even to religion - as you note, any tribe can adopt a dogma and defend it with bloodshed. Brent "There is another form of temptation, even more fraught with danger. This is the disease of curiosity It is this which draws us to try and discover the secrets of nature, those secrets which are beyond our understanding, which can avail us nothing, and which man should not wish to learn." -- St. Augustine -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: the love torture
2013/7/11 Bruno Marchal > > On 11 Jul 2013, at 14:12, Alberto G. Corona wrote: > > I quote myself: > "But the religious instinct in the primitive sense is not about love and > compassion, but the contrary it is about fanaticism and exclusion of these > that are not in agreement. " > > > I might believe the contrary. What you say could make sense for very local > religion and we might argue on what a religion is, but I am "universalist" > on this matter, and religion is what can unite people and help to recognize > oneself in the others. It cannot exclude the others and it go in the > direction of love and compassion, but also circumspection toward dividing > ideas. > That is exactly your civilizational bias, which is obviously Christian. I´m talking about the -primitive- function of the religious instinct . And primitive means obviously local, tribal. Sincé almost all , except a few milennia of civilizational and two milenia of universalism, the humans have evolved in small tribal groups where no other capital existed except the social capital of respect and valuation inside small groups. That is the reason why whenever an orgaized religión the collapses or the society become more heterogeneous and the ties weaken, the natural outcome is the re-creation of these small groups. Call it mafia, urban tribus, sectarian politics etc. All of them work the same way: you sacrifice something for us, yo show that you deserve to enter, we help you, you from time to time demosntrate again your wothtiness, we keep helping you. If you try to leave, bad things will happen to you. Obviosly this need a set of rites. Most of them are unnoticed for the one that does not know, but they run unconsciously , that is, emotionally. The more and more the life depends of these groups, the payment is bigger. > > > > > > This is incomplete: the fanaticism and the exclusion is there for well > stablished game theoretical reasons: to create a strong boundary between > collaborators and non collaborators, and thus to reinforce collaboration. > Reasoning in terms of game theory sacrifice is the unavoidable requirement > for stablishing that boundary. > > > I understand this at the level of biology, where such boundaries are > needed. But the divine, if used for identity and boundaries purpose seems > to be closer to blasphemy and pseudo-religion. > It is the religión in the most primitive sense. primitive religion has nothing to do with God. It has to do with a Leader, dead or alive. The cult to the dead ancestors, The cult to the personality in socialist countries, the cult to the Padrino in the Mafia, the cult to the leader of a rock band That is the true, most basic, primitive religion. God and Teology is the product of the civilization and rationalization of the religious instinct. > > > > > Unavoidably, when there social capital is reduced to this group and there > is no other form of spiritual union beyond the sect, the sacrifices become > stronger and stronger, since even the life depend on the group , to be safe > from the attack of other groups. The first and the last sacrifice is, of > course, human sacrifices. to kill non sectarians. and to demonstrate that > one has the will and the disposition to kill. > > > Hmm... That looks again more like the terrestrial game of life. > You never could call it a game if you read this 80 years ago in Europe. during the world wars. Just look at the history and don´t be biased by this exceptional peaceful period that is coming to the end. > > > > That is what the sacrifice of Christ free us from, and it is the > unavoidable destiny of a society that leave their Christian beliefs. > > > I am not sure I understand. > Read above: to maintain our social capital implies periodic sacrifices. The sacrifice of Christ paid our deeds -once and for all- for being worth and appreciated by other human beings. The belief on that calm our innate desire to demand the sacrifice of the others for us and the desire to sacrifice ourseves. We are worth ad dignified because the Son of God loved us, their sons upto the point of dying for us. What sacrifice a son has to do for their brothers and their beloving Father? None. > > > > This happened in a few years in Germany and communist countries for only a > matter of example. > > > You might elaborate because I feel like I am missing something. > > ordinary Germans killing jews in the streets and comunists denouncing their fathers for counterrevolutionary activities knowing that they will be executted. What worst horrendous sacrifice can you imagine? > Bruno > > > > > > > > 2013/7/11 Bruno Marchal > >> >> On 10 Jul 2013, at 23:05, Alberto G. Corona wrote: >> >> I do not exactly agree. since religion is a natural inclination, and >> atheists have no organized religion >> >> >> It depends on which atheist sect you talk about. It is an hard subject >> because those sect are secret. I know them as I leave them, and like all >> sect, it is a diffic
Re: the love torture
On 11 Jul 2013, at 14:12, Alberto G. Corona wrote: I quote myself: "But the religious instinct in the primitive sense is not about love and compassion, but the contrary it is about fanaticism and exclusion of these that are not in agreement. " I might believe the contrary. What you say could make sense for very local religion and we might argue on what a religion is, but I am "universalist" on this matter, and religion is what can unite people and help to recognize oneself in the others. It cannot exclude the others and it go in the direction of love and compassion, but also circumspection toward dividing ideas. This is incomplete: the fanaticism and the exclusion is there for well stablished game theoretical reasons: to create a strong boundary between collaborators and non collaborators, and thus to reinforce collaboration. Reasoning in terms of game theory sacrifice is the unavoidable requirement for stablishing that boundary. I understand this at the level of biology, where such boundaries are needed. But the divine, if used for identity and boundaries purpose seems to be closer to blasphemy and pseudo-religion. Unavoidably, when there social capital is reduced to this group and there is no other form of spiritual union beyond the sect, the sacrifices become stronger and stronger, since even the life depend on the group , to be safe from the attack of other groups. The first and the last sacrifice is, of course, human sacrifices. to kill non sectarians. and to demonstrate that one has the will and the disposition to kill. Hmm... That looks again more like the terrestrial game of life. That is what the sacrifice of Christ free us from, and it is the unavoidable destiny of a society that leave their Christian beliefs. I am not sure I understand. This happened in a few years in Germany and communist countries for only a matter of example. You might elaborate because I feel like I am missing something. Bruno 2013/7/11 Bruno Marchal On 10 Jul 2013, at 23:05, Alberto G. Corona wrote: I do not exactly agree. since religion is a natural inclination, and atheists have no organized religion It depends on which atheist sect you talk about. It is an hard subject because those sect are secret. I know them as I leave them, and like all sect, it is a difficult task to say the least. then the religious way of thinking permeate all their lives. I´m not trying to be pejorative. But the religious instinct in the primitive sense is not about love and compassion, but the contrary it is about fanaticism and exclusion of these that are not in agreement. Yes. And it is about sacrifices to demonstrate the worthiness of each one for the sectarian group. Chiristianity in this sense gives freedom from this primitive, sectarian, sacrifice demanding instinct and canalizes it in positive ways. There too it will depend on which sect or branch of christianity you talk about. Bruno 2013/7/10 Roger Clough I am amazed these days at the antagonism atheists hold against religion. I suppose it has to be that way, for there is a natural draw of men toward religion. And if their rejection weren't so oversized, they might fall victim to religion-- that is, to learn humility, and be filled, without any worth or work on their own, with faith, hope, and love. How torturous. Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000] See my Leibniz site at http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000] See my Leibniz site at http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything- l...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- Alberto. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything- l...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more opt
Re: the love torture
I quote myself: "But the religious instinct in the primitive sense is not about love and compassion, but the contrary it is about fanaticism and exclusion of these that are not in agreement. " This is incomplete: the fanaticism and the exclusion is there for well stablished game theoretical reasons: to create a strong boundary between collaborators and non collaborators, and thus to reinforce collaboration. Reasoning in terms of game theory sacrifice is the unavoidable requirement for stablishing that boundary. Unavoidably, when there social capital is reduced to this group and there is no other form of spiritual union beyond the sect, the sacrifices become stronger and stronger, since even the life depend on the group , to be safe from the attack of other groups. The first and the last sacrifice is, of course, human sacrifices. to kill non sectarians. and to demonstrate that one has the will and the disposition to kill. That is what the sacrifice of Christ free us from, and it is the unavoidable destiny of a society that leave their Christian beliefs. This happened in a few years in Germany and communist countries for only a matter of example. 2013/7/11 Bruno Marchal > > On 10 Jul 2013, at 23:05, Alberto G. Corona wrote: > > I do not exactly agree. since religion is a natural inclination, and > atheists have no organized religion > > > It depends on which atheist sect you talk about. It is an hard subject > because those sect are secret. I know them as I leave them, and like all > sect, it is a difficult task to say the least. > > > > > then the religious way of thinking permeate all their lives. I´m not > trying to be pejorative. But the religious instinct in the primitive sense > is not about love and compassion, but the contrary it is about fanaticism > and exclusion of these that are not in agreement. > > > Yes. > > > > > And it is about sacrifices to demonstrate the worthiness of each one for > the sectarian group. > > Chiristianity in this sense gives freedom from this primitive, sectarian, > sacrifice demanding instinct and canalizes it in positive ways. > > > There too it will depend on which sect or branch of christianity you talk > about. > > Bruno > > > > > > > 2013/7/10 Roger Clough > >> I am amazed these days at the antagonism atheists hold against religion. >> I suppose it has to be that way, for there is a natural draw of men >> toward religion. >> And if their rejection weren't so oversized, they might fall victim to >> religion-- >> that is, to learn humility, and be filled, without any worth or work on >> their own, >> with faith, hope, and love. >> >> How torturous. >> >> >> Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000] >> See my Leibniz site at >> http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough >> >> >> Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000] >> See my Leibniz site at >> http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> >> > > > > -- > Alberto. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > -- Alberto. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: the love torture
On 10 Jul 2013, at 23:05, Alberto G. Corona wrote: I do not exactly agree. since religion is a natural inclination, and atheists have no organized religion It depends on which atheist sect you talk about. It is an hard subject because those sect are secret. I know them as I leave them, and like all sect, it is a difficult task to say the least. then the religious way of thinking permeate all their lives. I´m not trying to be pejorative. But the religious instinct in the primitive sense is not about love and compassion, but the contrary it is about fanaticism and exclusion of these that are not in agreement. Yes. And it is about sacrifices to demonstrate the worthiness of each one for the sectarian group. Chiristianity in this sense gives freedom from this primitive, sectarian, sacrifice demanding instinct and canalizes it in positive ways. There too it will depend on which sect or branch of christianity you talk about. Bruno 2013/7/10 Roger Clough I am amazed these days at the antagonism atheists hold against religion. I suppose it has to be that way, for there is a natural draw of men toward religion. And if their rejection weren't so oversized, they might fall victim to religion-- that is, to learn humility, and be filled, without any worth or work on their own, with faith, hope, and love. How torturous. Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000] See my Leibniz site at http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000] See my Leibniz site at http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- Alberto. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: the love torture
On 7/10/2013 3:48 PM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: More recently I heard tell of a woman preacher who suddenly announced to her starteled congfregation that at last she was free, she had becomnwe an atheist. That feeling of freedom is normal. after a while she will fee a vacuum since the religious instinct impulse people to meet people with similar worldviews and for logical reasons. Men can not live alone. The problem is that if this process is not organized it manifest itself in the most brutal ways. And the primitive unorganized way to do this is trough sacrifices, where freedom is the first sacrifice. People need companionship. So she will meet like minded people through sacrifices? and in a brutal way? Non-sequiturs worthy of a theologian. I like the worlds of a Christian converted from Islam Moseb Hassan Yousef, son of the leader of the muslim brotherhood, and former terrorist itself, thus said: "Christ free us from religion. Any kind or religion Islam, Satanism, communism or christianism. And this is the true meaning of the sacrifice of Christ. humans are religious because they are social and Religion is about sacrifices. the sacrifice of Christ free us from our own sacrifices. Whoever does not believe in Christ must realize sacrifices for the other nonbelievers of his community. Who's gonna make me? Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Re: the love torture
More recently I heard tell of a woman preacher who suddenly announced to her starteled congfregation that at last she was free, she had becomnwe an atheist. That feeling of freedom is normal. after a while she will fee a vacuum since the religious instinct impulse people to meet people with similar worldviews and for logical reasons. Men can not live alone. The problem is that if this process is not organized it manifest itself in the most brutal ways. And the primitive unorganized way to do this is trough sacrifices, where freedom is the first sacrifice. I like the worlds of a Christian converted from Islam Moseb Hassan Yousef, son of the leader of the muslim brotherhood, and former terrorist itself, thus said: "Christ free us from religion. Any kind or religion Islam, Satanism, communism or christianism. And this is the true meaning of the sacrifice of Christ. humans are religious because they are social and Religion is about sacrifices. the sacrifice of Christ free us from our own sacrifices. Whoever does not believe in Christ must realize sacrifices for the other nonbelievers of his community. 2013/7/10 Roger Clough > Hi Alberto G. Corona > > Fanaticism is sometimes part of organized reilgion, > at least that's how our liberal atheists in Hollywood portray it. > And damaging if you're a child or dumb enough to stay. > > Bart Ehrman was brought up in such a strict fundamentalist family > and as soon as he came into the academic liberal atmosphere, > he violently went to attacking religion of any kind - you can > see him on Youtube doing that.. Actually it had more to do wigth getting > even > with your parents. > > I myself drifted away from my Lutheran roots when I went to college > where every body qwas a liberal and few were very religious. > Since then gthe Bible brought me back. > > More recently I heard tell of a woman preacher who suddenly announced to > her > starteled congfregation that at last she was free, she > had becomnwe an atheist. She too was brought up in a strict Baptist > family. > > Many are called, but few are chosen. > > Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000] > See my Leibniz site at > http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough > > > - Receiving the following content ----- > From: Alberto G. Corona > Receiver: everything-list > Time: 2013-07-10, 17:05:13 > Subject: Re: the love torture > > > > > >I do not exactly agree. since religion is a natural inclination, and > >atheists have no organized religion then the religious way of thinking > >permeate all their lives. I? not trying to be pejorative. But the > >religious instinct in the primitive sense is not about love and > compassion, > >but the contrary it is about fanaticism and exclusion of these that are > not > >in agreement. And it is about sacrifices to demonstrate the worthiness of > >each one for the sectarian group. > > > > Chiristianity in this sense gives freedom from this primitive, sectarian, > >sacrifice demanding instinct and canalizes it in positive ways. > > > > > >2013/7/10 Roger Clough > > > >> I am amazed these days at the antagonism atheists hold against > religion. > >> I suppose it has to be that way, for there is a natural draw of men > toward > >> religion. > >> And if their rejection weren't so oversized, they might fall victim to > >> religion-- > >> that is, to learn humility, and be filled, without any worth or work on > >> their own, > >> with faith, hope, and love. > >> > >> How torturous. > >> > >> > >> Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000] > >> See my Leibniz site at > >> http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough > >> > >> > >> Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000] > >> See my Leibniz site at > >> http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough > >> > >> -- > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > >> "Everything List" group. > >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > an > >> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > >> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > >-- > >Alberto. > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To
Re: the love torture
On 7/10/2013 2:05 PM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: I do not exactly agree. since religion is a natural inclination, and atheists have no organized religion then the religious way of thinking permeate all their lives. I´m not trying to be pejorative. But the religious instinct in the primitive sense is not about love and compassion, but the contrary it is about fanaticism and exclusion of these that are not in agreement. And it is about sacrifices to demonstrate the worthiness of each one for the sectarian group. Chiristianity in this sense gives freedom from this primitive, sectarian, sacrifice demanding instinct and canalizes it in positive ways. Somehow I can't see burning Bruno at the stake as positive. Or convincing Africans not to distribute condoms. Or amassing wealth for clergy. Or denying marriage to homosexuals. I suppose that finally accepting Darwinian evolution (but only of the body) and the spheroidal earth and the germ theory of disease are great steps forward. Brent Without the cover of religion Catholicism would be prosecuted as a criminal enterprise. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Re: the love torture
Hi Alberto G. Corona Fanaticism is sometimes part of organized reilgion, at least that's how our liberal atheists in Hollywood portray it. And damaging if you're a child or dumb enough to stay. Bart Ehrman was brought up in such a strict fundamentalist family and as soon as he came into the academic liberal atmosphere, he violently went to attacking religion of any kind - you can see him on Youtube doing that.. Actually it had more to do wigth getting even with your parents. I myself drifted away from my Lutheran roots when I went to college where every body qwas a liberal and few were very religious. Since then gthe Bible brought me back. More recently I heard tell of a woman preacher who suddenly announced to her starteled congfregation that at last she was free, she had becomnwe an atheist. She too was brought up in a strict Baptist family. Many are called, but few are chosen. Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000] See my Leibniz site at http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough - Receiving the following content - From: Alberto G. Corona Receiver: everything-list Time: 2013-07-10, 17:05:13 Subject: Re: the love torture >I do not exactly agree. since religion is a natural inclination, and >atheists have no organized religion then the religious way of thinking >permeate all their lives. I? not trying to be pejorative. But the >religious instinct in the primitive sense is not about love and compassion, >but the contrary it is about fanaticism and exclusion of these that are not >in agreement. And it is about sacrifices to demonstrate the worthiness of >each one for the sectarian group. > > Chiristianity in this sense gives freedom from this primitive, sectarian, >sacrifice demanding instinct and canalizes it in positive ways. > > >2013/7/10 Roger Clough > >> I am amazed these days at the antagonism atheists hold against religion. >> I suppose it has to be that way, for there is a natural draw of men toward >> religion. >> And if their rejection weren't so oversized, they might fall victim to >> religion-- >> that is, to learn humility, and be filled, without any worth or work on >> their own, >> with faith, hope, and love. >> >> How torturous. >> >> >> Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000] >> See my Leibniz site at >> http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough >> >> >> Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000] >> See my Leibniz site at >> http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> >> > > > >-- >Alberto. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: the love torture
I do not exactly agree. since religion is a natural inclination, and atheists have no organized religion then the religious way of thinking permeate all their lives. I´m not trying to be pejorative. But the religious instinct in the primitive sense is not about love and compassion, but the contrary it is about fanaticism and exclusion of these that are not in agreement. And it is about sacrifices to demonstrate the worthiness of each one for the sectarian group. Chiristianity in this sense gives freedom from this primitive, sectarian, sacrifice demanding instinct and canalizes it in positive ways. 2013/7/10 Roger Clough > I am amazed these days at the antagonism atheists hold against religion. > I suppose it has to be that way, for there is a natural draw of men toward > religion. > And if their rejection weren't so oversized, they might fall victim to > religion-- > that is, to learn humility, and be filled, without any worth or work on > their own, > with faith, hope, and love. > > How torturous. > > > Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000] > See my Leibniz site at > http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough > > > Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000] > See my Leibniz site at > http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > -- Alberto. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: the love torture
On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 1:44 PM, Roger Clough wrote: > I am amazed these days at the antagonism atheists hold against religion. > And I am amazed that you are amazed that there should be antagonism toward the thing that, with the exception of death itself, has caused more misery than anything else. The fact that what religion teaches is not only untrue but downright imbecilic does not add to its appeal. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: the love torture
Keep your rosaries away from our ovaries. Keep your jihad bombs away our human bodies. Keep your politics away from our nations politics. None of the above are the result of faith, hope, love or humility. Richard On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 1:44 PM, Roger Clough wrote: > I am amazed these days at the antagonism atheists hold against religion. > I suppose it has to be that way, for there is a natural draw of men toward > religion. > And if their rejection weren't so oversized, they might fall victim to > religion-- > that is, to learn humility, and be filled, without any worth or work on > their own, > with faith, hope, and love. > > How torturous. > > > Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000] > See my Leibniz site at > http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough > > > Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000] > See my Leibniz site at > http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
the love torture
I am amazed these days at the antagonism atheists hold against religion. I suppose it has to be that way, for there is a natural draw of men toward religion. And if their rejection weren't so oversized, they might fall victim to religion-- that is, to learn humility, and be filled, without any worth or work on their own, with faith, hope, and love. How torturous. Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000] See my Leibniz site at http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000] See my Leibniz site at http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
