successful public schools in Finland
and Japan to balance the claims he makes. For example, one of his complaints
revolve around the rote mannerisms of education rather than the creative,
constructivist, and collaborative models that foster critical thinking (as
in
these other locations).
[David
Horse said to All:
As 2014 starts I've made a decision that will please some and annoy or
infuriate others - you can't please everyone!
I've observed Marsha over the last few months and, despite the warnings given
to her in the past I do not believe that there has been any substantial change
As you might recall, his endorsement of Zen and the Art (he compared it to Moby
Dick) was probably crucial to Pirsig's success.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bEeAiVnGbMfeature=youtube_gdata_player
It's about one hour in length. Enjoy.
Moq_Discuss
Ian said to Dan:
...And why I say as carefully (caringly) as I can to DMB (the champion /
paragon of aiming to get MoQ on a serious academic footing)- Careful Dave,
you're killing the MoQ in the process.
dmb says:
I'm killing the MOQ? How so?
I'd be totally amazed if you had an intelligible
Dan Glover wrote:
What intrigued me was how Dr. Steiner talks about his father pointing him in
the direction of a career in academics rather than a profession in the creative
arts. I think Robert Pirsig goes on about this in ZMM as well. Are academics
and creativity mutually exclusive of each
Ron said:
If we reference the 1961 paper to Edith Buchanan, RMP suggests creativity can
be taught and should be taught. I personally believe that the Academic bogeyman
producing Cookie cutter clones is an impossible Fiction. It harkens on the
rhetoric produced by conservative right wing
David Morey said to dmb:
Thanks Dave that is great, George's Grammars of Creation is ...an interesting
work that could, given an open mind, help develop the MOQ beyond some of its
self-imposed limitations as I see it. Of course, George has also written about
Heidegger as an alternative
John M said:
...I can think of two self-imposed limitations of the MOQ: 1. Its deliberate
avoidance of theistic language constrains it. How can you talk about absolute
reality without using the language of Absolute Reality? 2.It remains
open-ended. ...if open-ended is taken to mean
Just some relevant quotes on the topic Obedient mules or free and creative
persons.
Now, at last, the standard rhetoric texts came into their own. The principles
expounded in them were no longer rules to rebel against, not Ultimates in
themselves, but just techniques, gimmicks, for
John said to Arlo Dan:
The ideal instructor is the one who is part of the class - learning with them.
...It's not some talking head always speaking down to you like you're an idiot.
dmb says:
Yes, it's very important to push back against all those MOQers who keep
insisting that the ideal
The ideal student is the one who is not motivated by the mule mentality or
slave mentality. That's what eliminating the grades was all about. The grades
were the sticks and carrots that produced this mule mentality in the first
place. Just as it is with motorcycle maintenance, care is the other
This is a tangential issue and nobody asked BUT please notice what Pirsig (via
David Granger) is saying about relationship between academia and
civilization
From Granger's paper, called Dewey and Pirsig in Education:
-
The student[s
Arlo said to dmb:
This is a good point, but I think it reflects two purposes, which Paulo Freire
describes in Pedagogy of the Oppressed as Education either functions as an
instrument which is used to facilitate integration of the younger generation
into the logic of the present system and bring
John said to dmb:
...demonization polarizes and makes change into a power struggle and
conservatives insist upon having all the guns so it's a losing strategy. ...And
I believe we've all fallen prey to that same bug-a-boo of demonizing
opposition. 3rd level and 4th do often conflict, but they
Arlo said to dmb:
In his article A Pedagogy for Teachers and Other Educational Decision
Makers (Journal of Educational Administration, October, 1980), Graham
Patterson writes The link between peasant villagers in Latin America [as
described by Freire in Cultural Action for Freedom] and
John said:
SOM is a social pattern.
Arlo replied:
I've been avoiding this, and I think Dan gave a great reply already, but since
you're saying this again let me say, no. SOM is an intellectual pattern of
values that holds subjects and/or objects and primary metaphysical entities.
dmb says:
In a different thread...
John said to Arlo:
SOM is a social pattern.
...successful intellectual patterns are those that are chosen by a majority of
a group. An intellectual pattern that resides in the head of one person, dies
quickly and is forgotton, so there has to be a society for
of the finite experience, every
conjunction required to make the relation intelligible, is given in full. --
William James
On Sat, Jan 25, 2014 at 10:55 AM, david dmbucha...@hotmail.com wrote:
In a different thread...
John said to Arlo:
SOM is a social pattern.
...successful
Arlo said:
...Another article that came to my attention today is just from last Friday,
but I think it touches on everything we've been talking about (although this
article lacks Pirsig's vocabulary to frame the problem).
http://thefederalist.com/2014/01/17/the-death-of-expertise/
dmb says:
John said to Arlo:
SOM is a social pattern.
dmb asked John:
Why do you think SOM is a social pattern?
John replied:
I don't. I think our society operates according to a philosophy that has SOM
as it's metaphysical basis. Is there any argument about that?
dmb asked John:
Why do you think
Dan said to John:
...The driving forces of the social level are celebrity values of fame and
wealth. ...Praise is a form of celebrity value, like the applause the actor
hears after nailing a particularly difficult line. A raise in pay or a bonus is
wonderful but if it doesn't come with a pat on
hit pay dirt. ..The second clue is David Buchanan and
his attempts at setting right your misconceptions. ..I don't mean to be
critical, but from what I've seen and despite your protestations, you do not
understand the MOQ.
John replied:
Well, you might be right. But it seems to me that if you
John said to dmb:
...thanks for hammering it into my thick skull that you both assert that the
Giant does NOT operate according to a SOMish framework. I've been of the
opinion that it does. So that must be the bone of contention then. In my view
every society has, as it's unspoken or spoken
John said to dmb:
...I deleted a lot of your aspersions below.
dmb says:
By deleting them and by calling them aspersions, you have doubly dismissed
and evaded criticisms that I take to be quite sincere and valid. I think that
is dishonest and seriously undermines any chance of having a real
More helpful help for John to ignore
Historian James Livingston says the classical pragmatists like Dewey and James
were already postmodern way before it was cool. And what is it that makes them
postmodern? If you look at what they do not believe, hopefully, you can see
that REJECTING SOM
dmb said to John:
You're mixing up the levels, as I already tried to explain a day or two ago...
Pirsig makes a case that intellectual values should be in charge of society
BUT, he says, there is a flaw (genetic defect) in the form of rationality that
has inherited this task. That is where the
dmb says:
As I understand it, the distinction between organic and inorganic is something
everyone already understands. It's not something Pirsig invented. It's just the
difference between Adam and the clay from which he was formed. It's the
difference between rocks and trees, between ants and
as mere insult or name-calling. The
disputes over the meaning of concepts is one thing, but this complaint about
your conversational behavior is another.
On Wed, Jan 29, 2014 at 2:21 PM, david dmbucha...@hotmail.com wrote:
More helpful help for John to ignore
Historian James
Ian said:
The distinction between levels 1 and 2 is life - not necessarily organic
life, or DNA-based organic life, that just happens to be the most-obvious form
in the circumstances of human history.
Andre replied:
Can you enlighten us with your knowledge of life that is not 'necessarily
Horse said to dmb:
At the risk of misinterpreting what Ian's saying, I think what he means is
that, as a generalisation, 'life' is the next step up from 'matter'! What we
know as life is based around the double helix and involves DNA, genes,
proteins etc. but this is only one possible way
John said to Andre:
The essence of the Giant is SOM and if you can't see that then I don't even
know what you're doing here. ...I don't expect to get bombarded by charges of
you just don't get the MOQ all the time simply because my questions and
searchings go beyond the normal orthodoxy of
John said to Ian:
To be perfectly honest, I snagged the definition from Wiki on Philosophical
Realism and substituted SOM for the term everywhere it appeared in the wiki
article. My aim, as you can imagine, was to get some feedback on the idea that
SOM and Philosophical Realism are one and the
Ham said to John:
...I received a personal note yesterday from someone named Tim who couldn't
thank me enough for introducing him to Donald Hoffman. He also mentioned LS,
but seemed to know me from the past. I've always had a great deal of respect
for you, he wrote. I dimly recall
John said to Horse:
...I'm also claiming that the Giant runs SOM as it's life's blood. That is,
there's a direct connection with viewing subjects and objects as independently
real, and the pragmatic evolution of all Giants. I'm speaking metaphorically
here but I welcome closer analysis of
Horse said to dmb:
I agree with much of what you say but it's still very important to remember
that DNA-based life is no more than one possible way for life to exist and that
it involves an environment and a context. Not having experienced something (or
maybe mis-interpreting something that we
Dan said:
I don't know, Dave. I think there are observations being made that non-DNA
based lifeforms are possible: Synthetic biologists have discovered that six
other molecules can could store genetic information and pass it on. A host of
alternative nucleic acids have been made in labs over
dmb said:
These [social and intellectual] are discrete and sometimes conflicting levels
of values. This distinction is on full display in the history of the 20th
century, as Pirsig explains in some detail. Fascism and fundamentalism are
essentially reactionary, anti-intellectual movements.
John to Andre:
According to the MoQ, intellect should rule society - but this is plainly
impossible. The only way intellect can rule over social patterns is within the
mind of an individual... The minute that individual tries to rule over any
other person or society we are at the level of
John said to Andre:
Intellectual patterns do not compete with social patterns and never have.
Andre replied:
This just about summarizes your entire paragraph John and it's an indication of
a very confused understanding of the MoQ. How you can reach such a conclusion
is beyond me. And you
All MOQers:
It would be a strange thing if Pirsig's main ideas were tucked away in some
obscure corner of his writings. Maybe that's why he put the central metaphor of
his first book right there on the cover. By the time you finish reading the
title of Zen and the Art of
Ian said to dmb:
Can't understand your reason for an MoQ101 statement of the bleedin' obvious?
You even confirm that was your point. ...The biggest straw man conceivable, to
even suggest any MD reader could think otherwise. Let's have something
constructive.
dmb says:
I can understand why
Arlo said:
...Goya wrote a caption for the print that complicates its message,
'Imagination abandoned by reason produces impossible monsters; united with her,
she is the mother of the arts and source of their wonders.' In other words,
Goya believed that imagination should never be completely
John said to Andre:
...I do not agree there is competition between the levels. I certainly don't
see, for instance, how inorganic and organic patterns can in any way compete.
But rather than trying to support Pirsig by quoting Pirsig, why can't you
support Pirsig with real, experiential
John said to Andre:
I agree there is competition at all levels. I do not agree there is competition
between the levels.
Andre replied:
I agree John and am unsure whether I have stated otherwise. I have always
maintained that between the levels there is a struggle for domination, a
Is society going to dominate intellect or is intellect going to dominate
society? And if society wins, what's going to be left of intellect? And if
intellect wins what's going to be left of society?
Intellect is not an extension of society any more than society is an extension
of biology.
John said to Dan:
...you can't have a culture, without individuals. Any more than you can have
any social pattern without biological being and support. An ongoing matter of
discussion, the way the levels interact. Platt has hung his hat on the idea
that the 4th level is the Individual level
Arlo said to dmb:
Yes, I think Goya's thoughts align more with ZMM's synthesis of classic and
romantic understanding than with LILA's DQ/SQ. It was with his statement that
Imagination abandoned by reason produces impossible monsters that I was
squinting a bit and seeing the necessary harmony
Andre said to John:
And here Anthony tells us the trials and tribulations he has with his three
wives...which inspired me to suggest the following: I have finally taken up the
courage to present the MoQ in a public forum. People of note have been invited
to attend and lo and behold: they are
There is an interesting article about human rights and the limits of
materialism linked below. I think some of Dworkin's ideas are similar to
Pirsig's and he had very impressive credentials as a legal philosopher. As
you'll see in the article, he did well at Harvard, was a Rhodes Scholar at
John said to dmb:
... putting any level in control is wrong. The purpose of life is a balancing
act, each level balances off its neighbors. Society needs intellectual
criticism in order to thrive - that's freedom to think of better ways. It does
not need intellectual control, in fact it's
Ant said to dmb:
Many thanks for forwarding the link to Michael Rosen's article Beyond
Naturalism: On Ronald Dworkin ...However, Pirsig's big trick as it were, was
to introduce a moral system based on the East Asian Tetralemma (even if
implicitly - again thank his time as a soldier in Korea
John McConnell said to Ant McWatt, March 4th 2014 (off-line):
There’s no point igniting a God-bomb in that bunch of theophobes on MD. Here
at least you and I understand each other. You know I’m not out to evangelize
you, and you are at least tolerant of my faith.
dmb says:
Bunch of
dmb says:
I don't recall any mention of feudalism but the 20th century ideologies are
discussed in great detail over the course of several chapters in Lila. Chapters
22 and 24 are most directly related to capitalism and socialism but chapters 20
and 21also have much to say on the topic.
dmb said:
...The MOQ says that intellectual values are as real as rocks and trees. And
these values are placed at the top of the moral hierarchy precisely because
they are more dynamic, more open to change, than are the other categories of
static values.
Timo replied:
...What do you mean by
John to Andre:
Intellectual ideas struggle to gain social success but intellectual values do
not compete with social values.
Andre:
The Law is into a popularity contest? It appears to me that the more you try to
explain your position the messier it gets John.
dmb says:
I know, it's weird
Ian shared his latest poem:
Dave said anti-intellectualism
Ian says straw-man
Dave also said sort of
Dennett says sorta
Ian says kinda
Ian concludes progress.
dmb says;
I honestly have no idea what you're saying here with the sort of, sorta, kinda.
And I'm curious to know how Dennett got
The great educational philosopher John Dewey was one of the first to emphasize
the important linkages among interest, curiosity, and effort. Dewey made the
persuasive case that interest-based learning is more beneficial than
effort-based learning. He noted that “willing attention” is more
Arlo said to John
...by what rationale do you advocate freedom to do whatever you want for
the intellectual and social levels but not the biological level? Does freedom
only pertain to social and intellectual activity? Why not biological?
...Anti-intellectualism is never good.
John
I don't know who said:
In an explicit riposte to social Darwinists, Kropotkin argued that the entire
theoretical basis for Social Darwinism was wrong: those species that cooperate
most effectively tend to be the most competitive in the long run.
dmb says:
I've heard that Darwin used the
John said to Arlo:
I was trying to rectify the low regard that attaches to social patterns when
they are equated with Religion, by a bunch of atheists.
Arlo replied:
Religion is at the locus of a lot of this because religion has been a (the)
main social pattern that has (is) attempted to
ridge coyote said to dmb:
...I understand that there is an antagonism of some religions toward intellect
but to my mind, it does not follow logically that intellect should be
antagonistic toward religion as a whole.
dmb replies:
Okay, I don't disagree when you say it does not follow
-like. He and John are
grinding the same axe, apparently, but Pirsig is not grinding that axe.
'The arrogance of humanism' by David Ehrenfeld isn't a stringent
philosophical book (which I assumed), but rather a personal statement by the
author himself - and perhaps his wife Joan. The book
dmb says:
Yes, as in the hot stove example, Quality comes first and the static
descriptions always follow. BUT one can respond to DQ in various ways:
biologically, socially, or intellectually and that will be determined by one's
level of development. That's why it's important to make
John said to Arlo:
I think our dialogue would go better, Arlo, if I wasn't lumped in with the
bone-headed reactionary right. But perhaps that's partly my own fault for not
making myself more clear. I'll try and explain myself better.
dmb says:
I can certainly understand why you wouldn't
John said to dmb:
I'll point out once more the theme of below. that anti-theism in itself, is
not a sound basis to build a constructive philosophy. ... But I suppose it's
too much to ask you to consider what I actually say. All you seem capable of is
blind reactionism. That's very sad.
of an
actual engagement with the ideas at play then you're just abusing these fine
sentiments as a diversion or evasion tactic. I think that's dishonest,
manipulative, irresponsible, and irrelevant. It's not respectable and it's
certainly not friendly.
On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 6:42 AM, david dmbucha
Dan said to John:
Without reading the book I see that there seems to be an apparent opposition
between religion and science that I thought Robert Pirsig answered well in his
writings. Rather than trying to bring back some vaguely veiled religious
fundamentalism to combat the rise of science,
Ian said:
All I would question is why a negative reaction to veiled religious
fundamentlism - dogmatic fundamentalism bad sure, but what about faith in
quality as the basis of a living metaphysics.
Andre replied:
Because 'faith in quality' suggests a belief, a trust in whatever one means by
John said to Andre:
From Time, Will and Purpose:
The development of external boldness, decisiveness, cleverness, and
all the virtues praised by mock eloquent cant of the euphoric masses is
meaningless without the firm association of these virtues with excellent
reflection upon our
Hear an audio biography of Sidis in less than a half hour:
http://www.rationalargumentator.com/index/blog/tag/william-james-sidis/
Enjoy!
Moq_Discuss mailing list
Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
TRICKSTER IN TWEED: THE QUEST FOR QUALITY IN A FACULTY LIFE
Trickster in Tweed is a tour de force on academic culture written with a
compelling and artful narrative style all its own. But it is also the story of
a latter day Robert Pirsig-inspired Phaedrus searching not only for Quality but
John said to dmb,
never heard of the guy before...[...] from the essay: Why Writing Qualitative
Inquiry Writing Matters @
I agree completely. H.G. , And thanks dave, for introducing me.
dmb says:
It looks like Dan is the one the thank for that. I was introducing Thomas
Frentz's book,
find that connection in the book but fabricated the connection
himself?
And why would you comment on the reviewer of the book rather than the author of
the book - or the book itself?
Deliberate or not, I think it's a very weird mix-up.
John said:
I was just discussing with Ian, David, how
Arlo said:
For the record, I checked this out of the library the other day (its a good
read), but the author (Frentz) explicitly makes the Pirsig connection himself.
Echoing Robert M. Pirsig's charge in Zen and the Art of Motorcycle
Maintenance, this narrative is my own quest for living a high
Tricksters are the creators of culture and they are rhetors in the classical
sense? That's certainly close enough for my tastes. Very charming.
Thanks again, Arlo.
[DMB]
I was wondering about the Trickster part and wondered if (even hoped)
Campbell was an influence. Thanks for that too.
Ian said:
Reddit is just a social tagging application... It's not rigorous research
obviously, it's as good as the community that interacts,...
dmb says:
Yea, that's what I thought. Apparently, John was being sarcastic - or he thinks
that things like facebook and twitter count as rigorous
The following was excerpted from Spiritual Snake Oil: Fads Fallacies in Pop
Culture by Chris Edwards.
See any mistakes here? What would you say in response?
Robert Pirsig, author of Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, deserves a
lot of credit for getting a wide readership interested
About Spiritual Snake Oil: Fads Fallacies in Pop Culture by Chris Edwards,
Ron said:
...I have read the entire essay at this point and it is my impression that the
author is not very well read on the topic of philosophy in general. Also, he
seems to be addressing those interpreters of Pirsig
“I have decided to preach intellectual modesty for the rest of my days. There
is a tradition, an enormously strong tradition of intellectual immodesty and
irresponsibility. Around the year 1930 I told a joke. I said that many students
don't go to university assuming that it is a great empire of
combating theism, both
sides arguing their own conception of truth as absolute and irrefutable.
This has been just a small sample of what seems to be the popular general
Standing situation in American society and it's a bit worrisome.
-Ron
On May 2, 2014, at 8:18 PM, david dmbucha
Arlo said to John:
Just to clarify, what I was linking wasn't about post-modernism but
POST-post-modernism. And, not making any claims, just pointing out the fun
with this way of labeling.
dmb says:
A book on the topic and worth mentioning is Larry Hickman's Pragmatism as
Post-Postmodernism.
Arlo said:
...I should note that this short article (Alfredi Ruiz, Theoretical Bases of
the Post-Rationalist Approach) also calls for an ontological and an
epistomological approach to experience, in much the same way that Paul Turner
approached describing two approaches to Pirsig's MOQ.
John asked:
...I associate the romantic with art. Is that wrong?
Arlo answered:
Again, depends on if you're in the problem space or the solution space. In ZMM,
the romantic was associated with art because art was artificially
divorced from reason. So, yes, within the problem space of ZMM, the
Ian said:
Not non-intellectual or anti-intellectual, but the idea of intellectual but
more so, more evolved, more progressive kind of intellectual. (Forget any
previous coining of post-intelletual-ism, I'd like to avoid the errors of
history, not re-inforce them.)
How about it. An intellect
Ant said to John:
.., your attitude here stinks. It's disrespectful and (as I've noticed over
then last few months) you've made very little if any substantive comments about
the MOQ; which, of course, is the reason that we are meant to be here.
John replied:
When you say about, do you mean
John L. McConnell said:
...But David, although I have respected your scholarship, your intelligence,
your insights, and most of all your friendship and high regard for Dr. Pirisg,
I have failed to find tolerance, empathy, compassion, or any other basis for
dialogue with you. Right thinking
Ron said:
...Like any problem, one must school themselves in the history and context of
the difficulty in order to successfully come to an adequate solution. For
example if a tech forum for motorcycles, let's say Harley Davidson cycles (they
are particular beasts in the engine world) was
dmb said:
...In other words, John can maintain his anti-intellectualism only by ignoring
Pirsig's solution, namely the root expansion of rationality, the art of
rationality.
Arlo replied:
That's how I see it too. By saying I associate the romantic with art, he is
also saying I do not associate
John said to Arlo:
...But what MD says is don't be TOO creative now - ya gotta stick to our
format ptui. But go ahead, Arlo, argue some more with me. I always like your
arguments. They're pretty good, tho not deeply thought out.
dmb says:
Yea John, that's your greatest flaw. You're too
Eunoia Definition: beautiful thinking; a good mind. Pronunciation: u-NO-ya
What kind of education produces free people with creative minds? John Dewey's
kind. And what kind is Dewey's? Well, if David Granger is right, it's very much
like Pirsig's.
Noam Chomsky on John Dewey in less than three
The study of philosophy cultivates a healthy scepticism about the moral
opinions, political arguments and economic reasonings with which we are daily
bombarded by ideologues, churchmen, politicians and economists. It teaches one
to detect ‘higher forms of nonsense’, to identify humbug, to weed
Arlo said to John:
...You're making a very specific claim, in order to reduce Pirsig's problematic
classical/romantic schism to one that is determined by neurophysiology. I'm
saying, the current research does not support that at all.What's critical
here is that you're not making the claim
Ron (xacto) said to all:
When I do an internet search on anti intellectualism a whole host of topics
comes to the fore front. Topics like : anti intellectualism is taking over the
U.S. and anti intellectualism in Christianity are the top subjects of my
search. Anti intellectualism in education
Ron said to John:
The problem space is where American culture lives, but I would not say that is
where the contributors here at the MD live meaning the mental space deemed the
problem. So attacking them as part of the problem does not support your
contention.
John replied:
My contention is
dmb quoted from Peter Hacker's article, Why Study Philosophy?:
The study of philosophy cultivates a healthy scepticism about the moral
opinions, political arguments and economic reasonings with which we are daily
bombarded by ideologues, churchmen, politicians and economists. It teaches one
dmb quoted from Hacker's article, Why Study Philosophy?:
The only way to scrutinise concepts is to examine the use of the words that
express them. Conceptual investigations are investigations into what makes
sense and what does not. And, of course, questions of sense precede questions
of
dmb said to John:
...The problem space is SOM, the problem addressed by the MOQ, not
anti-intellectualism. Even further, the criticism is that your
anti-intellectualism is connected to your failure to get out of the problem
space. That is to say, you keep attacking intellect here in the MOQ
That's right, Ron.
Let me spell it out for you, John.
Some dictionaries use the term objective and some don't. Wikipedia's page
doesn't use the term either. But it doesn't matter anyway because the issue is
about the philosophical and metaphysical use of the the term. If you plug
intellect
and environment.” -- David Hall and
Roger Ames in Thinking Through Confucius
http://www.academia.edu/1928535/The_Social_Self_in_Zen_and_American_Pragmatism._By_Steve_Odin._Albany_State_University_of_New_York_Press
Moq_Discuss mailing list
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What's the difference between an obedient mule and free thinker?
Jane Addams and William James thought autonomy should be tempered with mutual
support and responsibility. She sought an education that would cultivate
empathy and cooperation. He stressed the study of literature in developing
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