Re: [Flightgear-devel] May I help with scenery?
Chris Metzler wrote: OK, I'm very ignorant about this. Is that a major limitation in that it'd be very hard/time consuming for someone competent to adapt PostGIS to include elevation data? Quoting Norman Vine from the thread When can we have roads like this: Martin Spott writes: If you'd agree to call PostGIS as sort of an implementation of shapefile in a database, the analogue geotiff in a database would be nice, too. To other spatially enabled database servers cover raster data as well ? This is a popular topic of discussion that is often answerd by (1) BLOB storage is inherently different then Table Storage (2) Reprojection of Raster Data is usually *much* more expensive then Vector data and isn't handled by any GIS enabled DB that I am currently aware of. Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] May I help with scenery?
Paul Surgeon wrote: Probably to first step is to write the code/scripts to load the vector data into a PostgreSQL/PostGIS DB and write an exporter for terragear so that Curt can carry on generating scenery without having to modify terragear. The tools to not only import VMAP0 data but GSHHS shorelines as well into a PostGIS database are already present. I think you also can use these tools to export back into VMAP0 or any other format. A 'native' OpenGIS/PostGIS interface in TerraGear would be 'smarter', though ;-) I played with some of the terrgear tools yesterday but unfortunately they just spit out raw shape data without the associated names, descriptions, etc. which are required in maps. I assume the raw data that is available for most of the world simply doesn't contain the details you are looking for. In order to get stret names and other gimmicks you want to have a look at the TIGER data that's available for the US, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] May I help with scenery?
Martin Spott wrote: The tools to not only import VMAP0 data but GSHHS shorelines as well into a PostGIS database are already present. I think you also can use these tools to export back into VMAP0 or any other format. BTW, does anyone know which sort of agreement you have to sign when you intend to purchase the VMAP1 CD's ? http://www.mapability.com/info/vmap1_intro.html Myaybe you are free to use them as long as you dont' redistribute the data itself but only a derivated work instead (like FlightGear scnenery), Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
RE: [Flightgear-devel] May I help with scenery?
Martin Spott writes: Martin Spott wrote: The tools to not only import VMAP0 data but GSHHS shorelines as well into a PostGIS database are already present. I think you also can use these tools to export back into VMAP0 or any other format. BTW, does anyone know which sort of agreement you have to sign when you intend to purchase the VMAP1 CD's ? http://www.mapability.com/info/vmap1_intro.html Myaybe you are free to use them as long as you dont' redistribute the data itself but only a derivated work instead (like FlightGear scnenery), AFAIK all VMAP data is in the public domain unless classified The purchase price is to cover distribution cost and the data is freely redistributable. Norman ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] May I help with scenery?
Norman Vine wrote: Martin Spott writes: BTW, does anyone know which sort of agreement you have to sign when you intend to purchase the VMAP1 CD's ? http://www.mapability.com/info/vmap1_intro.html AFAIK all VMAP data is in the public domain unless classified Yes, it's written on the mentioned page that de data is already declassified. The only reason that they don't allow for FTP download is not to get in trouble with other providers of map data that sell their data for real money. So I though someone could purchase the CD's and create a bunch of shapefiles Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] May I help with scenery?
Does GMax have any object exporters? That is, what formats can it save models in? GMax save as .gmax and export as .p3d None of them is directly usable :-( Personally, I use Realsoft3D for making my models and export them in .obj format. I then import the .obj format models into AC3D (V3.6) to apply the textures and convert it into .ac format for FG. Well, it seems that Realsoft3D costs 600,00 Eur which I don't plan paying for something I will give out for free :-) Thx for the hint anyway. Roberto p.s. may you know there's some old version which is free to purchase? ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] May I help with scenery?
On Thursday 13 January 2005 18:52, Robicd wrote: Does GMax have any object exporters? That is, what formats can it save models in? GMax save as .gmax and export as .p3d None of them is directly usable :-( Personally, I use Realsoft3D for making my models and export them in .obj format. I then import the .obj format models into AC3D (V3.6) to apply the textures and convert it into .ac format for FG. Well, it seems that Realsoft3D costs 600,00 Eur which I don't plan paying for something I will give out for free :-) Thx for the hint anyway. Roberto p.s. may you know there's some old version which is free to purchase? I'm currently using V4.5 (Linux - V5 isn't available for Linux yet) and the demo version for V4.5 were only limited in the size of textures that could be used and the size of the renders produced. As you wouldn't be using these features for modelling they wouldn't be an issue. However, there isn't a demo version of V5 yet and I don't know how it will be limited. Be warned that many people think that it has a very steep learning curve but personally, find it very logical and it has the best modelling tools I've ever used (not that I've tried many other 3d packages - I haven't ever really felt the need since I started using V4) LeeE ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] May I help with scenery?
On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 00:06:17 + Jon Stockill wrote: 3. From this we'll generate an archive of scenery models (this may or may not be broken down into scenery areas - it depends on the size), and the objects tree, which is likely to be broken down into the standard 10 degree square scenery chunks - to use it you'd download the chunks that match your scenery, and the model archive. Oh! I get it now (I think) -- so your plan is not to necessarily distribute objects (e.g. a dload of the Eiffel Tower) or unified groups of objects (e.g. a dload of the buildings at Orly), but instead portions of the Scenery/Objects tree that have been fleshed out with the uploaded objects (e.g. a dload of Scenery/Objects/e000n40). If someone uploads the Sears Tower, another person would dload it not by dloading the Sears Tower, but by dloading the 10x10 or 1x1 scenery chunk that contains it, which might also contain other objects (shared or static) that people have uploaded. Right? That's a neat idea -- I hadn't been thinking in terms of that paradigm at all. I'd been thinking just in terms of the way the other FS dload sites do it, which make sense for e.g. MSFS but is probably not the best way to proceed for FG. One other possibility you might wanna consider is allowing uploads/ dloads of terrain (e.g. tiles modified through fgsd). I don't know what the best way to handle this is, especially given the possibility of conflicts with later official terrain builds. I have objects I've placed where if I put them at their GPS-measured coordinates, they'd be in water, because the river's a quarter-mile off its correct location. It'd be nice to be able to pass along fixed-up tiles. Anyway, just a thought. -c -- Chris Metzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] (remove snip-me. to email) As a child I understood how to give; I have forgotten this grace since I have become civilized. - Chief Luther Standing Bear pgpqGZWAfbIiE.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] May I help with scenery?
On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 07:13:46 + (UTC) Martin Spott wrote: Chris Metzler wrote: So to make sure I'm getting it, your plan is to have an FTP site for uploads and the website for dloads (what's the procedure for stuff making it over from one to the other)? Well, what would you expect us to do ? I have no idea; that's why I asked. I believe we won't ask for everyone's approval before placing an object on the website Of course. I was simply curious whether stuff would get automatically moved over, or whether you had plans to test out the robustness of contributions beforehand (which seems liked it could evolve into a huge task), and how you might resolve conflicting contributions (someone uploads and object that someone else has already done), and things like that. -c -- Chris Metzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] (remove snip-me. to email) As a child I understood how to give; I have forgotten this grace since I have become civilized. - Chief Luther Standing Bear pgpRZkkOMRkHl.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] May I help with scenery?
On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 00:09:43 + Jon Stockill wrote: Chris Metzler wrote: Oh, one other thing. If the plan is to combine Jon's UK info with info submitted by others to develop a model location database, you might find my post from that Scenery thread interesting -- it's something I'm willing to contribute annually or whatever . . . I would imaging it should be fairly easy to import that information automatically, assigning appropriate models based on the description. If these are put into their own group then it also becomes easy to remove them from the database before importing an updated version - I'd definitely be interested. I already have a python script for pushing the magic carpet around from lat/lon to lat/lon in FG for extracting ground elevations. If it seems to you like a reasonable thing for me to do, I'll start generating ground elevations for chunks of this dataset? There are over 100,000 objects in the FAA's Digital Obstruction File, so it's bound to take a while. If there's an ASCII format you'd prefer to get the data in, I'd like to see a line or two of it so that I can send stuff to you in a way that's simplest for you. Also, if there's a particular subset of the data (e.g. cooling towers) you'd like to see first, that's easy enough to do as well. -c -- Chris Metzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] (remove snip-me. to email) As a child I understood how to give; I have forgotten this grace since I have become civilized. - Chief Luther Standing Bear pgpY6MbYQM0SC.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] May I help with scenery?
Hi Chris, SGI bitmap format that FlightGear uses. For making models, the apps that are popular on Linux (Blender, AC3D) are cross-platform, and other apps that are available to Windows users but not to Linux users (e.g. 3DSMax) will work as well. I'm trying out AC3D, would you suggest that? I'd love to know that it's not a complete waste of time insisting in using this OS, so ... Who is still maintaing world sceneries? Should I contact someone in order to coordinate the efforts? It depends on what you're really asking here. Curtis Olson builds and maintains the official terrain, and keeps the official ground scenery that's distributed with that terrain. At present, that ground ... other. Hopefully Curt or Erik or David or someone else more knowledgeable than I am will comment on this. I'd like to include buildings of the city I leave in. I'm not in the mood of filling the terrain area with trees or randomly generated buildings. I'd like to (virtually) fly over my city and recognize villas, the City Hall, the Cathedral, maybe the Football Stadium and so on. If OTOH you're not asking about official inclusion into FlightGear, Please slow down. I'm just starting at collecting informations here, in order to decide if and how is it possible to contribute to the scenery. If that will be including my work into the official F.G. release is not even taken into account right now. It's too early. I will be happy if I succeed in adding a single realistic 3D object into an official scenery and if I get to correct (and I mean here: correct not modify) any costline or wrong height of the terrain of the city I leave into. but rather about efforts by users and developers to create ground scenery and share it amongst each other That's more my point of view (at least now). I consider it a good starting point. Well, there are two issues. The first is that the .bgl format used for MSFS is pretty hard to break down into models. That's a pity. I was confident I could use such files, that closes a promising scenario :-( Anyway I'll investigate further. The second, more important issue is that of licensing. While one could certainly use such scenery oneself, or (in the case of the freeware stuff) distribute it to other interestedFlightGear users independent of FlightGear, it almost always couldn't be distributed *with* FlightGear, even if free. The problem is that nearly all freeware comes with a license that is incompatible with the one that FlightGear uses (the GPL). The GPL doesn't place restrictions on what people do with the software once they've obtained it. In particular, if they wanna sell or re-sell it, they can. Nearly all freeware comes with a restriction preventing any commercial use. That's incompatible with the GPL. That could be not an issue if the original creator of the .bgl releases the F.G. converted file under GPL too. Just an idea :-) Roberto ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] May I help with scenery?
Chris Metzler wrote: Oh! I get it now (I think) -- so your plan is not to necessarily distribute objects (e.g. a dload of the Eiffel Tower) or unified groups of objects (e.g. a dload of the buildings at Orly), but instead portions of the Scenery/Objects tree that have been fleshed out with the uploaded objects (e.g. a dload of Scenery/Objects/e000n40). If someone uploads the Sears Tower, another person would dload it not by dloading the Sears Tower, but by dloading the 10x10 or 1x1 scenery chunk that contains it, Not the whole scenery chunk - you still get this from the well-known places. We are going to distribute everything that is necessary to _add_ the models to the existing scenery. This includes everything that belongs to the model itself (geometry, XMS description, texture, whatever this might be) plus a copy of the updated .stg file. As we store _everything_ in the database we are very flexible when it comes to create a 'collection' of objects for a specific scenery chunk and we are able to create the respective .stg file on the fly - depending on what's in there. One other possibility you might wanna consider is allowing uploads/ dloads of terrain (e.g. tiles modified through fgsd). This is not as easy as it sounds because you'd have to redo the tiles on every scenery update. The right way to incorporate manual scenery changes would be to parametrize these changes and provide a method to add them to the automatic scenery build. Typically this sort of undertaking is called GIS - Geographic Information System (like GRASS). Currently there is one drawback as the available OpenSource database add-ons (PostGIS, this is one reason why I love PostgreSQL so much) can handle 2D objects of almost any type really fine (it's fun so see a map being drawn out of a database) but they don't handle elevation data. We might start this by putting roads, railways, rivers and lakes into such a database to allow for manual tweaking if someone is willing to add a PostGIS interface to the TerraGear toolbox - and Curt agrees on to proceed on this path Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] May I help with scenery?
Chris Metzler wrote: Of course. I was simply curious whether stuff would get automatically moved over, or whether you had plans to test out the robustness of contributions beforehand We're going to implement a 'filter'. Every object that survives a test-run and appears to make sense will be applied to the database. We probably will increase the amount of automation as time proceeds, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] May I help with scenery?
Chris Metzler wrote: I already have a python script for pushing the magic carpet around from lat/lon to lat/lon in FG for extracting ground elevations. If it seems to you like a reasonable thing for me to do, I'll start generating ground elevations for chunks of this dataset? In the long run starting FG just for getting elevation numbers is a bit too much of overhead. I already 'triggered' Fred Bouvier if he'd agree to extract a portion out of his FGSD - and with a bit of luck he gives us a hand ;-) Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] May I help with scenery?
Chris Metzler wrote: I already have a python script for pushing the magic carpet around from lat/lon to lat/lon in FG for extracting ground elevations. If it seems to you like a reasonable thing for me to do, I'll start generating ground elevations for chunks of this dataset? There are over 100,000 objects in the FAA's Digital Obstruction File, so it's bound to take a while. If there's an ASCII format you'd prefer to get the data in, I'd like to see a line or two of it so that I can send stuff to you in a way that's simplest for you. Also, if there's a particular subset of the data (e.g. cooling towers) you'd like to see first, that's easy enough to do as well. Actually, I have a script which measures ground elevation in just the way you mention, and all objects are inserted into the database with an elevation of -, these are then batch updated by the script - this isn't to say that you couldn't submit it complete with heights though (although it'd make sense to ensure we're using the same scenery version). Before I moved to using the database I held all this info in plain text files, 1 record per line, with colon seperated fields. Lat/Lon was combined into a single position field (space seperated) so that the same field can also be used for grid references. So you'd have: lat lon:elevation:heading:model or gridref:elevation:heading:model Importing data formatted like that is incredibly simple. -- Jon Stockill [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] May I help with scenery?
Hi Ampere, AC3D is a basic 3D modeller wich works with .ac files. It seems easy though not very stable. There's a free trial version. I will find out if registering is worth. Any other suggestions? Since you have experience with 3D Studio, you may want to use GMax: http://www4.discreet.com/gmax/ It has all the functionality you will ever need. Best of all, it doesn't need any money. That's good, seems pretty much more powerfull then AC3D. But no, I was used to 3D Studio (old Dos version) not to 3DS-Max whose interface style is very similar to the GMax one. Anyway, GMax has plenty of docs and I will mainly use only basic tools (it's good to see that boolean operations are fully implemented, AC3D doesn't). ... 1st problem: GMax does import 3ds files but does not export, should I get some additional sort of plugin? How do you do that? thx, Roberto ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] May I help with scenery?
On Tuesday 11 January 2005 22:24, Robicd wrote: That's a pity. I was confident I could use such files, that closes a promising scenario :-( Anyway I'll investigate further. I tried converting .BGL files and extracting models from it about a year ago, without much luck. I had some success with simple buildings like flats and hangars, but as soon as it got a little complicated, it failed. Don't remember exactly which tools I used, but you might have a look at SCASM, SCDIS and ppe IIRC. That could be not an issue if the original creator of the .bgl releases the F.G. converted file under GPL too. Just an idea :-) I mailed one of the authors of a 3rd-party MSFS scenery if he could just mail me the 3D models and textures. He refused because he didn't want the plain models to be spread around (?!?). But anyway, you could try the same. Maybe somebody else doesn't mind as long as he gets proper credit and it's put under the GPL. --Ivo ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] May I help with scenery?
Robicd wrote: If OTOH you're not asking about official inclusion into FlightGear, Please slow down. I'm just starting at collecting informations here, in order to decide if and how is it possible to contribute to the scenery. I see no point why it should not be possible to contribute. Go ahead, everything that adds characteristica to the FlightGear scenery and makes some sense is welcome, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] May I help with scenery?
Norman Vine wrote: PostGIS can be used to serve a WFS or WCS that is built on top of the UMN Mapserver which will handle 'z' values just fine. Right, but this doesn't picture all the required features in this case. If we would erect a repository for manual scenery changes we would need to edit elevations inside the current data. To my knowledge, Mapserver is only one-way. This still doesn't prevent us from using a database to refine roads and other data of this sort. I'll think about that after we've got the scenery objects repository running Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] May I help with scenery?
Martin: If I can assist you by providing space on my ftp site I'll be happy to do so. (I currently mirror the flightgear code. It's updated automatically from them by some sort of magic that I don't fully understand, but Curtis does. grin!) There is also a private upload area in that server for special folks to upload into. It's not accessable without a password, and only a very few folks have it. I then can xfer what's in that directory into a public accessable area manually if needbe. ftp://kingmont.com jj ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] May I help with scenery?
Christian Mayer wrote: If you look at the bottom of the map (the blue bar) that you'll see there the data source: Tele Atlas NV in your case. Hey, their map coordinates are not that bad. This is the location I got via trial and error from 'www.terraserver.com': http://www.multimap.com/map/browse.cgi?lat=49.024576lon=5.877158scale=25000icon=x Still subject to refinements I should get back to the TaxiDraw workbench ;-) Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] May I help with scenery?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Martin: If I can assist you by providing space on my ftp site I'll be happy to do so. Thanks for your offer - currently I have about 300 GByte left, this should last for a while ;-) Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
RE: [Flightgear-devel] May I help with scenery?
Martin Spott writes: Norman Vine wrote: PostGIS can be used to serve a WFS or WCS that is built on top of the UMN Mapserver which will handle 'z' values just fine. Right, but this doesn't picture all the required features in this case. If we would erect a repository for manual scenery changes we would need to edit elevations inside the current data. To my knowledge, Mapserver is only one-way. Right don't know if this would help or not with grids http://www.vividsolutions.com/jump/main.htm Norman ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] May I help with scenery?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Jon Stockill schrieb: Ah, www.multimap.com helped me to figure out my first coordinate: There's a windmill at: Location:Germany X:1294800m Y:6110700m Lat:48:12:51N (48.2142) Lon:11:37:52E (11.631) But how do I add it online to the database? (http://www.stockill.org/fgfsdb/objects.php) www.terraserver.com helped even more. The detail is much worse (only down to 8 meters are for free), but as they've got air pictures it's easier to figure out the real position. You don't yet. Give me another week or so, and the scenery database should be at a stage where you can add your own objects to it. OK. I've got some more coordinates now. Of course nobody has made a windmill model yet, although I need to do a model of a wind turbine (I assume you're talking about an old stye windmill, not a modern electricity producing wind turbine? It's actually the modern variant (so it's called wind turbine then...) We don't have a soccer stadium yet, do we? CU, Christian -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFB5Vv1lhWtxOxWNFcRAr1eAKC2TVvS3njRLerq+40ipF0qwO1wigCfSlNC s8OaVG8ky19qLbLSZVzYcJE= =26/s -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] May I help with scenery?
Christian Mayer wrote: We don't have a soccer stadium yet, do we? I think there is one part of the SFO scenery, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] May I help with scenery?
On Wednesday 12 January 2005 15:19, Roberto Inzerillo wrote: If OTOH you're not asking about official inclusion into FlightGear, Please slow down. I'm just starting at collecting informations here, in order to decide if and how is it possible to contribute to the scenery. I see no point why it should not be possible to contribute. Go ahead, everything that adds characteristica to the FlightGear scenery and makes some sense is welcome, No worry, I will go on :-) At the time I'm getting familiar with GMax for 3D modelling which is far superior to AC3D although it doesn't export to any directly usable file format. I guess I have to buy some more software in order to GMax export in 3DS format :-( Still I'm happy with GMax, it lets me build simple 3D buildings without much pain. Maybe there's someone out there who could import my GMax models and convert them to .3ds (having the right export module) and then send it back to me so that I import it in a proper position into an F.G. scenery. Anyone fitting those requirements is reading this post? Hello :-) Roberto Does GMax have any object exporters? That is, what formats can it save models in? Personally, I use Realsoft3D for making my models and export them in .obj format. I then import the .obj format models into AC3D (V3.6) to apply the textures and convert it into .ac format for FG. LeeE ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] May I help with scenery?
On Wednesday, 12 January 2005 10:29, Martin Spott wrote: One other possibility you might wanna consider is allowing uploads/ dloads of terrain (e.g. tiles modified through fgsd). This is not as easy as it sounds because you'd have to redo the tiles on every scenery update. The right way to incorporate manual scenery changes would be to parametrize these changes and provide a method to add them to the automatic scenery build. Ideally all changes made to the terrain should be done at the source. i.e. VMAP0 and friends fgsd should be able to display, edit and save the vector data then use the terrgear generation tools to build the new tile and display the results. One could have a live online central repository (db) that handles the storage. fgsd can connect, request a tile of vector data for editing (The db can do some sort of locking on that tile to avoid simultaneous edits) Once the user is finished they upload the changes for everyone to use. Then when Curt builds the new scenery he just requests all the data from the updated DB. Simple stuff. Now who's going to write it? :P Seriously though a system like this would be cutting edge in comparison to the MSFS route of having every author releasing their little updates which have to be downloaded and installed piece-by-piece with no garauntees that there will be no conflicts between various authors. And boy-oh-boy do the MSFS community have problems with scenery conflicts! BTW : Does anyone know of a free VMAP0 editor for Linux? Paul ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] May I help with scenery?
Paul Surgeon wrote: Ideally all changes made to the terrain should be done at the source. i.e. VMAP0 and friends fgsd should be able to display, edit and save the vector data then use the terrgear generation tools to build the new tile and display the results. One could have a live online central repository (db) that handles the storage. fgsd can connect, request a tile of vector data for editing (The db can do some sort of locking on that tile to avoid simultaneous edits) Once the user is finished they upload the changes for everyone to use. Then when Curt builds the new scenery he just requests all the data from the updated DB. Simple stuff. Now who's going to write it? :P [...] BTW : Does anyone know of a free VMAP0 editor for Linux? As I already wrote we are heading for some sort of GIS application here. Storage for VMAP0 data - at least parts of it, I don't know all types of data that are covered by VMAP0 - could be the accomplished by the mentioned PostgreSQL/PostGIS database. Visualization of such data is easily done with QGIS, although for editing according to elevation data we'd need another tool. A PostGIS interface in FGSD might be a solution, but I don't think FGSD is currently capable of handlint this sort of vector data at all (I might be proven to be wrong here). We don't want a VMAP0-editor here, let's stick to standard interfaces and formats wherever possible, otherwise we are going to manouvre into a corner very soon, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
RE: [Flightgear-devel] May I help with scenery?
Paul Surgeon writes: On Wednesday, 12 January 2005 10:29, Martin Spott wrote: One other possibility you might wanna consider is allowing uploads/ dloads of terrain (e.g. tiles modified through fgsd). This is not as easy as it sounds because you'd have to redo the tiles on every scenery update. The right way to incorporate manual scenery changes would be to parametrize these changes and provide a method to add them to the automatic scenery build. Ideally all changes made to the terrain should be done at the source. i.e. VMAP0 and friends No, you do not change the source as it is a 'known' entity You make changes in a copy of the source perhaps stored in a different format fgsd should be able to display, edit and save the vector data then use the terrgear generation tools to build the new tile and display the results. One could have a live online central repository (db) that handles the storage. fgsd can connect, request a tile of vector data for editing (The db can do some sort of locking on that tile to avoid simultaneous edits) Once the user is finished they upload the changes for everyone to use. This is exactly why we are discussing PostGIS BTW : Does anyone know of a free VMAP0 editor for Linux? No, but Jump does many things including talking to PostGIS as doew/will uDIG JUMPS successor http://udig.refractions.net/ and there are several VMAP0 to shapefile translators and PostGIS understands shapefiles HTH Norman ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] May I help with scenery?
On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 08:29:43 + (UTC) Martin Spott wrote: Chris Metzler wrote: One other possibility you might wanna consider is allowing uploads/ dloads of terrain (e.g. tiles modified through fgsd). This is not as easy as it sounds because you'd have to redo the tiles on every scenery update. Right -- I'd commented elsewhere in this thread about how I'd spent a lot of time fixing up a tile in fgsd (moving riverbanks, changing ground poly materials, etc.), only to have to start over when a new scenery update came out (and I needed the new scenery for that tile because one of the TerraGear improvements fixed a glitch in an runway in that tile). It's still something people will do from time to time; I note that Frederic seems to touch up some of the default area tiles prior to releases, with the touched-up tiles going into the release/CVS. One probably would only need to re-edit the tiles if the scenery update results in either a major change to the tile (so that you're missing something important if you use an old tile), or to the boundaries of the neighboring tiles (thus creating a boundary mismatch if you use an edited old tile). Anyway, I think it'd be a good thing to offer. But you're absolutely right that editing the tiles this way isn't the best way to do it. The right way to incorporate manual scenery changes would be to parametrize these changes and provide a method to add them to the automatic scenery build. I agree completely. Typically this sort of undertaking is called GIS - Geographic Information System (like GRASS). Currently there is one drawback as the available OpenSource database add-ons (PostGIS, this is one reason why I love PostgreSQL so much) can handle 2D objects of almost any type really fine (it's fun so see a map being drawn out of a database) but they don't handle elevation data. OK, I'm very ignorant about this. Is that a major limitation in that it'd be very hard/time consuming for someone competent to adapt PostGIS to include elevation data? If you're currently up to speed on this stuff, can you describe how hard it is *to* come up to speed on it if you're not? (IOW, how comparatively hard is it to figure out this stuff) We might start this by putting roads, railways, rivers and lakes into such a database to allow for manual tweaking if someone is willing to add a PostGIS interface to the TerraGear toolbox - and Curt agrees on to proceed on this path I don't know anything about this stuff; but if I'm not working on the Zope site (I don't see the point in redundant effort, and I do think your approach of organizing the contributions in the same way as the FG scenery makes more sense), I'd be willing to look into this. -c -- Chris Metzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] (remove snip-me. to email) As a child I understood how to give; I have forgotten this grace since I have become civilized. - Chief Luther Standing Bear pgpIsg6U2krpK.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] May I help with scenery?
On Wednesday, 12 January 2005 22:26, Martin Spott wrote: As I already wrote we are heading for some sort of GIS application here. Storage for VMAP0 data - at least parts of it, I don't know all types of data that are covered by VMAP0 - could be the accomplished by the mentioned PostgreSQL/PostGIS database. Visualization of such data is easily done with QGIS, although for editing according to elevation data we'd need another tool. A PostGIS interface in FGSD might be a solution, but I don't think FGSD is currently capable of handlint this sort of vector data at all (I might be proven to be wrong here). We don't want a VMAP0-editor here, let's stick to standard interfaces and formats wherever possible, otherwise we are going to manouvre into a corner very soon, Ok, I see your point about not wanting to handle VMAP type directly in fgsd. Probably to first step is to write the code/scripts to load the vector data into a PostgreSQL/PostGIS DB and write an exporter for terragear so that Curt can carry on generating scenery without having to modify terragear. It would also be really handy to have a scaled down vector database (shapefiles?) in FG for moving map/GPS units as well as a basemap for flightplanners. I played with some of the terrgear tools yesterday but unfortunately they just spit out raw shape data without the associated names, descriptions, etc. which are required in maps. Paul ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] May I help with scenery?
Hello Roberto, Robicd wrote: 1st of all: F.G. is great :-) Great, you passed the entrance exam ;-) I would like to help, maybe with some simple objects around the scenery (buildings, aerial pictures of the terrain, some more details for the two airports around my city, Palermo, that's just an example). Probably just some pictures won't help _that_ much (although I'm convinced there is still interest in the raw images) the results you might produce from these images are very much appreciated. The infrasctucture for creating a central repository for scenery objects (database and different front-ends) is currently in the works. And now it comes to the developer team: some hints would be very appreciated. I'd like to use a Windows OS because I'm sooo used to it (please forgive me :-) but I read that most of the tools are Unix based. I'd love to know that it's not a complete waste of time insisting in using this OS, so ... FlightGear runs fine at least on certain Windows releases (I only tried Win2k), TaxiDraw is available for Windows as well (don't know about AC3D) so I don't see any obstacles regarding contribution of scenery decoration and/or airport layouts using a Windows platform. p.s. there are a bunch of very interesting and detailed MS-FS scenery sets around (many of them are free); could it be a good starting point for adding details to the local (around the city of Palermo) F.G. scenery? Maybe it's not that difficult to convert to the F.G. format. As I understood there are legal issues because lots of MSFS objects are not allowed to be redistributed within a GPL-licensed package. Cheers, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] May I help with scenery?
On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:09:42 +0100 Robicd wrote: And now it comes to the developer team: some hints would be very appreciated. I'd like to use a Windows OS because I'm sooo used to it (please forgive me :-) but I read that most of the tools are Unix based. Not really. For making textures, the GIMP is cross-platform, and I think many Windows apps (e.g. Photoshop) can output textures in the SGI bitmap format that FlightGear uses. For making models, the apps that are popular on Linux (Blender, AC3D) are cross-platform, and other apps that are available to Windows users but not to Linux users (e.g. 3DSMax) will work as well. I'd love to know that it's not a complete waste of time insisting in using this OS, so ... Who is still maintaing world sceneries? Should I contact someone in order to coordinate the efforts? It depends on what you're really asking here. Curtis Olson builds and maintains the official terrain, and keeps the official ground scenery that's distributed with that terrain. At present, that ground scenery consists of randomly-used structures on certain terrain types (e.g. the trees in forests, the generic buildings used in urban areas, etc.), as well as the unique structures mostly developed by Frederic Bouvier in the default scenery area (the San Francisco Bay area). I don't know what the policy is for accepting additional ground structures for some specific area and adding them to the downloadable scenery for that area, or indeed whether such a policy exists one way or the other. Hopefully Curt or Erik or David or someone else more knowledgeable than I am will comment on this. If OTOH you're not asking about official inclusion into FlightGear, but rather about efforts by users and developers to create ground scenery and share it amongst each other (like MSFS folks do on sites like avsim.com and flightsim.com), there is no central forum for doing that at this point. The creation of such a site gets discussed here fairly often. I've actually spent a couple of days working on adapting a web application platform for this purpose. But it boils down to either having a machine with storage space and bandwidth for it, or hosting. That hasn't come yet. So at this point, probably the appropriate thing to do is to post in flightgear-users or here, saying stuff like I'm working on scenery for _; here are links to some preliminary screenshots . . .what do you think? Is there some more documentation for building objects around the scenery (I mean something more about file formats, software tool kits, geographical references etc...)? Here's a staring link that may be useful: http://www.seedwiki.com/page.cfm?doc=Modeler%20And%20Scenery%20Builder%20Documentationwikiid=2418wpid=123390 (describes the sequence of events used in making ground scenery) It's a bit out of date in some ways -- the status of the documentation for scenery developers is not great at this point. But that's the whole point of it being a wiki: all of us together can improve it. Ask more questions if you have them. Well, I hope someone will give me a chance. No need for anyone to give you a chance. Just jump right in and start making stuff. Then show it to others; they'll offer suggestions, and who knows? p.s. there are a bunch of very interesting and detailed MS-FS scenery sets around (many of them are free); could it be a good starting point for adding details to the local (around the city of Palermo) F.G. scenery? Maybe it's not that difficult to convert to the F.G. format. Well, there are two issues. The first is that the .bgl format used for MSFS is pretty hard to break down into models. People have done it with earlier versions, and I have no doubt it could be done again (especially since I've seen documents on the web providing reasonably good reverse-engineering of the .bgl file structure), but I don't know of an app that does it with the current .bgl file format at this pont. The second, more important issue is that of licensing. While one could certainly use such scenery oneself, or (in the case of the freeware stuff) distribute it to other interestedFlightGear users independent of FlightGear, it almost always couldn't be distributed *with* FlightGear, even if free. The problem is that nearly all freeware comes with a license that is incompatible with the one that FlightGear uses (the GPL). The GPL doesn't place restrictions on what people do with the software once they've obtained it. In particular, if they wanna sell or re-sell it, they can. Nearly all freeware comes with a restriction preventing any commercial use. That's incompatible with the GPL. So that prevents MSFS ground scenery, even the freeware stuff, from being distributed with FlightGear after conversion to FlightGear's formats. But it doesn't prevent someone from converting it to FlightGear's formats and redistributing it to other FlightGear users, under the same license as the original and
Re: [Flightgear-devel] May I help with scenery?
Hi Martin, 1st of all: F.G. is great :-) Great, you passed the entrance exam ;-) Great, that always works ;-) Let's follow the white rabbit. I would like to help, maybe with some simple objects around the scenery (buildings, aerial pictures of the terrain, some more details for the two airports around my city, Palermo, that's just an example). Probably just some pictures won't help _that_ much (although I'm convinced there is still interest in the raw images) the results you might produce from these images are very much appreciated. The infrasctucture for creating a central repository for scenery objects (database and different front-ends) is currently in the works. Please let me know about the repository. Anyway, is there an easy way to identify a building position in order to put the 3D model in the correct place (lat/long/alt) into the F.G. world scenery? Should I consider buying a portable GPS, going in place and check what the machine says? Is there a way I could use aerial/staellite pictures (there are tons on the net and many are free for viewing) and extract position spots out of them in order to correctly orientate and position the 3D obejct (here I'm mainly talking about buildings). Any suggestion? And now it comes to the developer team: some hints would be very appreciated. I'd like to use a Windows OS because I'm sooo used to it (please forgive me :-) but I read that most of the tools are Unix based. I'd love to know that it's not a complete waste of time insisting in using this OS, so ... FlightGear runs fine at least on certain Windows releases (I only tried Win2k), TaxiDraw is available for Windows as well (don't know about AC3D) so I don't see any obstacles regarding contribution of scenery decoration and/or airport layouts using a Windows platform. I'm currently running F.G. v.0.9.6 W32 binary on Windows98 2nd ed. with average hardware with preconfigured options. It works well. I didn't try any exotic configuration yet, I will do that in the next days. AC3D is a basic 3D modeller wich works with .ac files. It seems easy though not very stable. There's a free trial version. I will find out if registering is worth. Any other suggestions? p.s. there are a bunch of very interesting and detailed MS-FS scenery sets around (many of them are free); could it be a good starting point for adding details to the local (around the city of Palermo) F.G. scenery? Maybe it's not that difficult to convert to the F.G. format. As I understood there are legal issues because lots of MSFS objects are not allowed to be redistributed within a GPL-licensed package. Well, I hope I will personally come in touch with those people maintaining the MSFS local scenery of the town I leave in. I could also get those people releasing the modified version with a GPL license, they already distribute those addons sceneries for free; or at least we could agree in a partial conversion of their job (it's still hypothetical because I really don't know if it's possible and/or easy to convert a MSFS scenery or part of it into a form suitable to F.G.). I don't think those MSFS scenery have some kind of license binding to MS in anyway, not even the converted versions will. Anyway, I will ask :-) If I'm lucky I will get some job done without much pain. Roberto -- +++ GMX - die erste Adresse für Mail, Message, More +++ 1 GB Mailbox bereits in GMX FreeMail http://www.gmx.net/de/go/mail ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] May I help with scenery?
Chris Metzler wrote: Robicd wrote: I'd love to know that it's not a complete waste of time insisting in using this OS, so ... Who is still maintaing world sceneries? Should I contact someone in order to coordinate the efforts? It depends on what you're really asking here. Curtis Olson builds and maintains the official terrain, and keeps the official ground scenery that's distributed with that terrain. At present, that ground scenery consists of randomly-used structures on certain terrain types (e.g. the trees in forests, the generic buildings used in urban areas, etc.), as well as the unique structures mostly developed by Frederic Bouvier in the default scenery area (the San Francisco Bay area). I Ah, so Curtis is solely responsible for the scenery. Would it be helpful to report on anomolies, or errors? Or is the scenery generator pretty much automated in combining topographic, tower, and roadway features? Stewart -- Powered by Linux. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] May I help with scenery?
Roberto Inzerillo wrote: I would like to help, maybe with some simple objects around the scenery (buildings, aerial pictures of the terrain, some more details for the two airports around my city, Palermo, that's just an example). Probably just some pictures won't help _that_ much (although I'm convinced there is still interest in the raw images) the results you might produce from these images are very much appreciated. The infrasctucture for creating a central repository for scenery objects (database and different front-ends) is currently in the works. Please let me know about the repository. Anyway, is there an easy way to identify a building position in order to put the 3D model in the correct place (lat/long/alt) into the F.G. world scenery? Should I consider buying a portable GPS, going in place and check what the machine says? Is there a way I could use aerial/staellite pictures (there are tons on the net and many are free for viewing) and extract position spots out of them in order to correctly orientate and position the 3D obejct (here I'm mainly talking about buildings). Any suggestion? FGSD ( http://fgsd.sf.net ) can help you to place buildings using a scanned map or an aerial photography. -Fred ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] May I help with scenery?
Roberto Inzerillo wrote: The infrasctucture for creating a central repository for scenery objects (database and different front-ends) is currently in the works. Please let me know about the repository. We'll announce it here as soon as we have something that works and looks neat enough not to disgrace ourselves :-) Should I consider buying a portable GPS, going in place and check what the machine says? Is there a way I could use aerial/staellite pictures [...] I believe others can give a more reliable comment on this. For my own use I tend to rely on satellite images and I so far didn't get disappointed. Although for some regions of our earth there are no pictures available for free or they probably don't contain detailed coordinates (see the end of the Scenery thread). Does anyone have experiences with portable GPS recievers ? Do they tend to increase the precision of their coordinate output if you remain at a location for several minutes ? Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] May I help with scenery?
Each of the new portables has an option to average the position for up to an hour, making return to the point accurate to within 3-meters. I have found that with 3-birds recognized, the position is usually accurate within 15-minutes. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] May I help with scenery?
On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 16:41:54 + (UTC) Martin Spott wrote: Roberto Inzerillo wrote: Please let me know about the repository. We'll announce it here as soon as we have something that works and looks neat enough not to disgrace ourselves :-) Can you elaborate, though? Because this has been discussed here several times over the last year and as a result, other people (e.g. me, Mat Churchill, etc.) have been working on this as well. I've been working on making a site in Zope that one can upload to/download from, with the intent of having pictures, a description, download links, and a comment log for each item. Mat Churchill and I had been discussing buying hosting for it. I'm curious what you've got in mind so I know if my efforts are better spent elsewhere. Should I consider buying a portable GPS, going in place and check what the machine says? Is there a way I could use aerial/staellite pictures [...] I believe others can give a more reliable comment on this. For my own use I tend to rely on satellite images and I so far didn't get disappointed. Although for some regions of our earth there are no pictures available for free or they probably don't contain detailed coordinates (see the end of the Scenery thread). Does anyone have experiences with portable GPS recievers ? Do they tend to increase the precision of their coordinate output if you remain at a location for several minutes ? I've been using a portable GPS around town here for a while now. Unfortunately, I have to be careful because I live in a metro area where walking up to landmarks or airport facilities with a portable GPS receiver and making notes is liable to get you stopped by the cops or worse. Anyway, in answer to your last question, I'm not sure whether you mean to be asking about precision or accuracy. Precision is a fixed property of the receiver; but as far as accuracy is concerned, yes, standing still at a location for a while tends to improve the accuracy of the coordinates given. Because of the risk of hassle here if I run around with a GPS at sites I'd wanna model, the main thing I've done with it is run around and take measurements at clearly defined locations (e.g. intersections), and then feed those coordinates into http://www.mapquest.com/maps/latlong.adp and see how Mapquest does . . .basically checking Mapquest's lat/lon accuracy. Surprisingly (for me anyway), I've found that in this metro area, Mapquest is consistently spot-on with its lat/lon coordinates -- its error appears to be within the fluctuations I get from the GPS receiver directly. This has in turn allowed me to use Mapquest for placement of some objects where measuring GPS coordinates directly could get me hassled. -c -- Chris Metzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] (remove snip-me. to email) As a child I understood how to give; I have forgotten this grace since I have become civilized. - Chief Luther Standing Bear pgp6nMgbHX3aj.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
RE: [Flightgear-devel] May I help with scenery?
Martin Spott writes: Does anyone have experiences with portable GPS recievers ? Do they tend to increase the precision of their coordinate output if you remain at a location for several minutes ? It depends but usually to some degree yes It is a worthwhile experiment to plot the position of any GPS signal you are going to rely on over a 'longish' period of time at a fixed location occasionally, best if this is done at a 'known' spot :-) Norman ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
RE: [Flightgear-devel] May I help with scenery?
Chris Metzler writes: I've been working on making a site in Zope that one can upload to/download from, with the intent of having pictures, a description, download links, and a comment log for each item. Cool ! Are you familiar with ZMapServer ? http://zmapserver.sourceforge.net/ If you want to play with it, a good place to ask questions is irc://irc.freenode.net/mapserver Norman ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] May I help with scenery?
Martin Spott wrote: We'll announce it here as soon as we have something that works and looks neat enough not to disgrace ourselves :-) As long as nobody sees my code we'll be ok :-) I believe others can give a more reliable comment on this. For my own use I tend to rely on satellite images and I so far didn't get disappointed. Although for some regions of our earth there are no pictures available for free or they probably don't contain detailed coordinates (see the end of the Scenery thread). The objects I've been positioning fall mainly into 2 categories: 1) Those for which a list of locations is available (this includes navaids, aerials etc). Obviously, with these you just go with the published position. 2) Objects on airfields. These obviously require a bit more precision and I've found that positioning an easily identified taxiway with the same footprint as the building into the airport diagram, then extracting this info from the taxiway file works really well. The positioning of landmarks which don't fall into either of those categories is best done with as accurate a map as you have available, either using FGSD with a scanned or digital map, or a service like www.multimap.com (for the UK I find www.streetmap.co.uk slightly more useful, because although it has a smaller selection of maps you can get the exact grid reference of the pointer on the map). The scenery database we're developing will hopefully be able to handle different national grid systems so that info can be submitted in whatever format is convenient, with convertion to lat/lon handled automatically (so far just OSGB is supported, but this can easily be extended as long as conversion functions are available). Does anyone have experiences with portable GPS recievers ? Do they tend to increase the precision of their coordinate output if you remain at a location for several minutes ? Lots of unobstructed sky is actually more important, which makes getting coordinates for large buildings somewhat difficult, as they can obscure half of the sky, and if others are nearby you'll get even less coverage. On my garmin, when saving a waypoint you can get it to resample to improve the accuracy, although with obscured sky you'll often see the estimated error increase as sats move behind buildings. You'll have an error of around 5-10m from a standard GPS unit with a good view of the sky - this will be good enough for positioning most objects outside of airfields, but you'll find inconsistencies in your data if you start placing objects close together, particularly if the GPS coordinates were measured at different times. Of course, if you want to spend thousands on a GPS, or know a friendly surveyor who already has one you can get amazing accuracy. -- Jon Stockill [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] May I help with scenery?
Martin Spott wrote: Jon Stockill already had a working, well, let's call it a 'skeleton' (hello Jon, please shoot me off-list if I said something too wrong ;-) Good description - the basics are there, but it looks ugly, and has no flesh :-) and in continuation of the recent Scenery thread we are currently in the process of developing this into a solution that meets our expectations concerning interface standardization. We'll combine this with an FTP upload site (already present) and different sorts of frontends that enable us to import, export, replicate the object/model database and browse the contents. An early shot can be seen here - the thumbnails are already read from the database (many thanks to Jon !!): Where already = about 15 mins before Martin posted that :-) [...] I've been working on making a site in Zope that one can upload to/download from, with the intent of having pictures, a description, download links, and a comment log for each item. Mat Churchill and I had been discussing buying hosting for it. We already _have_ the hosting ;-) To me your intention looks quite similar to what we are currently building. We designed our repository in a way that you can easily replicate if the load gets too high - but the models are small and I currently don't think this will happen too soon It's currently sitting on the end of my DSL line, which is fine for testing, but it'll be moved to somewhere with a bit more bandwidth before it's live. -- Jon Stockill [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] May I help with scenery?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Jon Stockill schrieb: The positioning of landmarks which don't fall into either of those categories is best done with as accurate a map as you have available, either using FGSD with a scanned or digital map, or a service like www.multimap.com (for the UK I find www.streetmap.co.uk slightly more useful, because although it has a smaller selection of maps you can get the exact grid reference of the pointer on the map). The scenery database we're developing will hopefully be able to handle different national grid systems so that info can be submitted in whatever format is convenient, with convertion to lat/lon handled automatically (so far just OSGB is supported, but this can easily be extended as long as conversion functions are available). Ah, www.multimap.com helped me to figure out my first coordinate: There's a windmill at: Location:Germany X:1294800m Y:6110700m Lat:48:12:51N (48.2142) Lon:11:37:52E (11.631) But how do I add it online to the database? (http://www.stockill.org/fgfsdb/objects.php) CU, Christian -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFB5EvVlhWtxOxWNFcRAgrtAKCg749PoLXA0U4Oa6fmUHXOh/tzaACbBKJi CbU4y0d79X05K35ZkAb2yls= =QNnt -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] May I help with scenery?
On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 08:14:41 -0800 Stewart Andreason wrote: Would it be helpful to report on anomolies, or errors? If by anomalies/errors, you mean things that clearly look like bugs, like seams/rips/etc., it makes sense to report them. However, it probably makes more sense to report them on terragear-devel than here. And it also makes sense to put a small amount of effort into googling the list archives (for terragear-devel and flightgear-devel) to make sure nobody's reported it before. But if you mean anomalies/errors such as road is a little off position and thus cuts through airport area or riverbank off in detail or city boundaries aren't like that in this area or stuff like that, see below. Or is the scenery generator pretty much automated in combining topographic, tower, and roadway features? I'm not the best person to be answering this; but nobody else has, so I'll stick my neck out. The generation of that stuff is automated, from publicly available datasets. There are errors associated with inaccuracies in the datasets as well as errors associated with matching the datasets up. To the best of my knowledge, no system exists for passing along corrections or refinements to the copies of those datasets used to generate the terrain (if I'm wrong about this, I hope like hell someone will jump in). This would be a very cool thing to have. Recently I used Frederic's fgsd to redo the banks of the Potomac and Anacostia rivers in the Washington, D.C. area -- they were way off. And I drew out the Mall, and changed its materials (terrain types), so that it'd look right. Then a new set of scenery came out. I needed to go with it, since it fixed a big airport bug that afflicted some airports, including National Airport. But that meant throwing away all the work I'd done fixing the terrain. If there were a system for feeding this info back into the datasets used by TerraGear to generate the terrain, so that corrections would show up in future scenery releases, that would be uber-cool. But it's not like everyone doesn't have a ton of ideas to pursue or problems to solve; someone with the skills to make it possible finding the *time* to make it possible is the hardest part of all. (so if you're interested in contributing and looking for a problem to work on . . .hehehehe) (TerraGear cognoscenti encouraged to jump in and correct anything I said above that's bogus) -c -- Chris Metzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] (remove snip-me. to email) As a child I understood how to give; I have forgotten this grace since I have become civilized. - Chief Luther Standing Bear pgpvIVLO36fAC.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] May I help with scenery?
On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 16:41:54 + (UTC), Martin wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Does anyone have experiences with portable GPS recievers ? Do they tend to increase the precision of their coordinate output if you remain at a location for several minutes ? ..yeah, depends on how it's done, and how its done. ;-) ..hints include googling for dgps, weighted mean, long time, cities typically leave their dgps survey gear out all day per point, post-processing diff data etc, and if all you have is some cheapo gear that won't log or somesuch, cheat: OCR pix off a web camera or somesuch. -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;-) ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] May I help with scenery?
Christian Mayer wrote: But how do I add it online to the database? (http://www.stockill.org/fgfsdb/objects.php) We're going to use the FTP upload site I've mentioned recently. If you have a 3D model plus a location or a location for an already existing model, please upload it here: ftp://ftp.uni-duisburg.de/FlightGear/incoming/ We will post some sort of submission guidelines soon - with 'soon' meaning as soon as automated database import works reliable. Just not to miss the chance for a short note, what we consider to make sense for being added to the collection. We need 1.) A 3D model - if not already present, 2.) one or more locations (lat/lon/orirntation) that apply to the model, 3.) a short description of the model and/or its author, 4.) a screenshot or at least a thumbnail - if available. Please give us a few more days, to get into 'production', Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] May I help with scenery?
Oh, one other thing. If the plan is to combine Jon's UK info with info submitted by others to develop a model location database, you might find my post from that Scenery thread interesting -- it's something I'm willing to contribute annually or whatever . . . http://baron.flightgear.org/pipermail/flightgear-devel/2005-January/033478.html -c -- Chris Metzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] (remove snip-me. to email) As a child I understood how to give; I have forgotten this grace since I have become civilized. - Chief Luther Standing Bear pgpuyex7JEuCt.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] May I help with scenery?
Christian Mayer wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Jon Stockill schrieb: The positioning of landmarks which don't fall into either of those categories is best done with as accurate a map as you have available, either using FGSD with a scanned or digital map, or a service like www.multimap.com (for the UK I find www.streetmap.co.uk slightly more useful, because although it has a smaller selection of maps you can get the exact grid reference of the pointer on the map). The scenery database we're developing will hopefully be able to handle different national grid systems so that info can be submitted in whatever format is convenient, with convertion to lat/lon handled automatically (so far just OSGB is supported, but this can easily be extended as long as conversion functions are available). Ah, www.multimap.com helped me to figure out my first coordinate: There's a windmill at: Location:Germany X:1294800m Y:6110700m Lat:48:12:51N (48.2142) Lon:11:37:52E (11.631) But how do I add it online to the database? (http://www.stockill.org/fgfsdb/objects.php) You don't yet. Give me another week or so, and the scenery database should be at a stage where you can add your own objects to it. Of course nobody has made a windmill model yet, although I need to do a model of a wind turbine (I assume you're talking about an old stye windmill, not a modern electricity producing wind turbine? -- Jon Stockill [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] May I help with scenery?
Chris Metzler wrote: I have lots of questions, hehe. An awful lot of your questions may be answered by this page: http://www.stockill.org/fgfsdb/objects.php That's the summary of where particular objects exist. The procedure will be: 1. Upload your model, including description and thumbnail (either to the ftp site, or directly to the database - perfecting that may take a while though :-) 2. Place your model at one or more locations in the scenery. Models are available for re-use, so people who just need to put an object at a particular point can just submit position data and use an existing model. 3. From this we'll generate an archive of scenery models (this may or may not be broken down into scenery areas - it depends on the size), and the objects tree, which is likely to be broken down into the standard 10 degree square scenery chunks - to use it you'd download the chunks that match your scenery, and the model archive. -- Jon Stockill [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] May I help with scenery?
Chris Metzler wrote: Oh, one other thing. If the plan is to combine Jon's UK info with info submitted by others to develop a model location database, you might find my post from that Scenery thread interesting -- it's something I'm willing to contribute annually or whatever . . . I would imaging it should be fairly easy to import that information automatically, assigning appropriate models based on the description. If these are put into their own group then it also becomes easy to remove them from the database before importing an updated version - I'd definitely be interested. -- Jon Stockill [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] May I help with scenery?
On Wednesday 12 January 2005 00:12, Martin Spott wrote: ftp://ftp.uni-duisburg.de/FlightGear/incoming/ We will post some sort of submission guidelines soon - with 'soon' meaning as soon as automated database import works reliable. Just not to miss the chance for a short note, what we consider to make sense for being added to the collection. We need 1.) A 3D model - if not already present, 2.) one or more locations (lat/lon/orirntation) that apply to the model, 3.) a short description of the model and/or its author, 4.) a screenshot or at least a thumbnail - if available. This would be also very wise: 5.) an attestation that the contribution is put under the GPL license by the author and that he is entitled to do this. In other words to make sure that he is not using parts for his contribution like textures, photos, 3d objects etc. that is not his own work and incompatible to the GPL. Like things that are closed source, only freeware or under another incompatible license. This point is IMO important because for example in the MS Flight Simulator freeware-scenery community it can happen sometimes that some freeware projects are legally not okay. To prevent that the same happens in the flightgear world such an attestation would be usefull. People should know what they can do and what not, before they contribute their work. This is especially necessary in an area where work is often based on other data like maps (gis data), photos, textures etc.. Best Regards, Oliver C. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] May I help with scenery?
Martin Spott wrote: Does anyone have experiences with portable GPS recievers ? Do they tend to increase the precision of their coordinate output if you remain at a location for several minutes ? My wife have gotten into geocachine (www.geocaching.com) over the last two years, so we've played with these things quite a bit. Yes, almost all consumer devices will do averaging, although none of them tell you the algorithm they use. Given enough time, they will converge down to a value that is accurate to within the accuracy of the system (a few meters). I doubt a few minutes would be enough, I would give it several hours to ensure that a large number of satellites triplets get used in the solution. Averaging over a few minutes is only going to reduce sampling error, it probably won't be switching between its satellite signals, so systematic error of one satellites signal (due to ionosphere refraction, etc...) won't be caught. Honestly, there's a lot of voodoo in consumer GPS hardware. Sometimes the sky looks great, you see really strong signal from 8 satellites, and still get a fix that is off by 40m or more and need to reboot the unit to get it to see straight. Andy ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] May I help with scenery?
On January 11, 2005 11:10 am, Roberto Inzerillo wrote: AC3D is a basic 3D modeller wich works with .ac files. It seems easy though not very stable. There's a free trial version. I will find out if registering is worth. Any other suggestions? Since you have experience with 3D Studio, you may want to use GMax: http://www4.discreet.com/gmax/ It has all the functionality you will ever need. Best of all, it doesn't need any money. You will need to export whatever you have done into *.3ds format in order for plib to be able to use it. Make sure the extension is 3ds, NOT 3DS. Ampere ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] May I help with scenery?
Christian Mayer wrote: Ah, www.multimap.com helped me to figure out my first coordinate: Wow, I wonder where they take their map data from - they are able to display details that not even show up on the respective ordonance map: http://www.multimap.com/map/browse.cgi?client=publicX=654000Y=6246500width=500height=300gride=gridn=srec=0coordsys=mercatordb=addr1=addr2=addr3=pc=advanced=local=localinfosel=kw=inmap=table=ovtype=zm=1scale=25000 Or with wrapped lines: http://www.multimap.com/map/browse.cgi?client=publicX=654000Y=6246500 width=500height=300gride=gridn=srec=0coordsys=mercator db=addr1=addr2=addr3=pc=advanced=local=localinfosel=kw=inmap= table=ovtype=zm=1scale=25000 Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] May I help with scenery?
Chris Metzler wrote: So to make sure I'm getting it, your plan is to have an FTP site for uploads and the website for dloads (what's the procedure for stuff making it over from one to the other)? Well, what would you expect us to do ? I believe we won't ask for everyone's approval before placing an object on the website Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
