Re: [Marxism] Iran: Whose Side are You On?
makes sense. You are confusing two things. Marxists back colonial resistance to imperialism, but he never would have backed such a government against its own people. _ Bing™ brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. Try it now. http://www.bing.com/search?q=restaurantsform=MLOGENpubl=WLHMTAGcrea=TXT_MLOGEN_Local_Local_Restaurants_1x1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Totalitarianism
Anybody who cares to examine the facts knows that Stalin's Great Patriotic War was not waged with internationalist principles and the official policy of the USSR unleashed a war against German civilians. The terror was imposed with the institutionally sanctioned mass rape of German females of all ages. With all due respect, I think your characterization of the unsavory quality of the Soviet struggle against Nazi aggression is greatly exaggerated. While it may indeed have resembled the approach of the Western allies as it quite openly was, I think your assertion that there was mass rape of German citizens as a matter of Soviet government policy is flawed. I'd like to see some evidence for that assertion. True there were atrocities committed in East Prussia by soviet troops committed in the spirit of retaliation and a pathetic flood of refugees that a French SS collaborator in The Sorrow and the Pity said made June 1940 look like a picnic. While idealized fairy tales of historical events should certainly be debunked, polemics that create, or appear to create, a moral equivalency between the Allies and the Axis or between the Soviets and the Nazis are misguided and simply wrong. Like the U.S. Civil War in the previous century, WW2 was a fundamental struggle between the forces of progress and reaction. Does that mean the better side that it was absolutely necessary prevail was perfect? Obviously not as the real world is never perfect. Does that mean there was no difference between them, as so many liberal and social democratic pharisees carp on was the case in Spain? No. Hey, 25 MILLION soviet people died in World War 2 which in fact was and is viewed-rightly-by a whole section of the masses there as a just Great Patriotic War of which they are rightly proud which by no means was Stalin's alone, in fact in the summer of 1941 he fully expected to ousted but the rest of the leadership felt they needed to retain him as a national symbol. Moreover, while I'm not an enthusiast of Trotsky and his epigones, the attitude reflected by these comments-at least as to the USSR-was not one that he shared. _ Express your personality in color! Preview and select themes for Hotmail®. http://www.windowslive-hotmail.com/LearnMore/personalize.aspx?ocid=PID23391::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HYGN_express:082009 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Totalitarianism
I'm not sure that's true and I've always been troubled by this Monday morning quarterback left sectarian outlook because it focuses so much on the Stalinists and the Left, thereby unwittingly shifting the onus away from the fascists. Look, say someone negligently leaves their door unlocked resulting in their whole family being murdered by thugs. Do we incessantly harp at one of the victim's negligence with only a glib passing reference to the deeds of the actual perpetrators? Thus this also sets up folks-and I'm definitely not talking about anyone involved in this discussion who I know are good people-for the accusation by Stalinists that their critics are neo-con cavalier philistines acting in bad faith in the manner of the original neo-cons like Burnam, Kristol the Elder and Sidney Hook who quickly went from ostensible trots to cold warriors with the same script of anti-Stalinist mongering. I remember this whole script playing out around Chile with the sectarian left focusing on bashing Allende, who certainly had his faults, but this attitude unwittingly aided Pinochet by strongly implying that he and his followers were pathetic chumps that got what chumps get on the street. . . . fascism would never have come to power in Germany without the policies of the Stalin dominated Comintern. _ Get free photo software from Windows Live http://www.windowslive.com/online/photos?ocid=PID23393::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:SI_PH_software:082009 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Post
Again, I think that's overstated. I think shifting global conditions were the cause of the revolutionary upsurge ebbing, particularly the end of the Great War which I don't think any correct-grandiose or not-program or personalities of generalship would have overcome. Obviously the Comintern wasn't perfect, however, and its pact with Hitler in '39 was despicable. . . . and the defeat of the international revolution, which defeat the 3rd Intl, in its majority rule and democracy, helped secure. _ Express your personality in color! Preview and select themes for Hotmail®. http://www.windowslive-hotmail.com/LearnMore/personalize.aspx?ocid=PID23391::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HYGN_express:082009 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Totalitarianism
Yeah, I wouldn't buy into the fairy tale your interlocutor put out about how charitable the Soviets were in their intentions for Germany. A little naive. The Tin Drum I think pretty much describes the tenor of those times. Nonetheless, as I've always thought since childhood, the cause of the Allies and the Soviets was a just one, notwithstanding whatever war crimes they committed. Now, people can be called deniers of anything but I think they are right in demanding to see evidence for certain claims, particularly when they are used a certain political purpose. While we're at it: how many women were raped by US soldiers in WW2? more than a few. does that mean it was an official policy of the US government that that take place or was it the indicispline of frustrated soldiers in the field, sadly a common corrollary of warfare. Quite frankly, civilians, particularly, in certain parts of Italy were more afraid of American soldiers than German ones as they tended to be less diciplined and less sober. One story is about how they or we broke into the wine cellars in a certain town that the German troops would never been permitted to do etc etc. with the women fleeing into the hills. So, that two million women were raped by Soviet troops AS A FUNCTION OF OFFICIAL SOVIET GOVERNMENT POLICY, that is an assertion that seems highly questionable and one, like WMDs in Iraq, should be viewed with skepticism. Dismissing the facts in this case for political comfort seems to me not very different than denying the holocaust or Obama's birth in the US ML _ Get your vacation photos on your phone! http://windowsliveformobile.com/en-us/photos/default.aspx?OCID=0809TL-HM YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Totalitarianism and Mass Rape
Thank you! A rough translation of the content: This is a description of what leadership of the Red Army did against rapes. It says that the leadership first tried to stop the rape of German women. But with little success. Then since early autumn 1945 the punishment could take an arrest of many days up to some years of punishment camp. If the rape lead to the death of the victim the person concerned was shot death. In 1949 presidium of the highest Soviets determined measures to be taken against people committing rape: 10 to 15 or 10 to 20 years of punishment camp depending on the case. This clearly shows that rapes were even not tolerated. Dogan Göcmen (http://dogangocmen.wordpress.com/) _ Get back to school stuff for them and cashback for you. http://www.bing.com/cashback?form=MSHYCBpubl=WLHMTAGcrea=TEXT_MSHYCB_BackToSchool_Cashback_BTSCashback_1x1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Rape instinct??
No dude, that's not a defense that is very helpful as it assumes that this happened and then makes excuses for it. Moreover, it is a slap in the face to the millions of soviet soldiers and partisans who didn't do things like that. I'm not sure what your experiences in war or military life are, but there are plenty of people who have fought in wars and been in extreme situations and not committed these crimes; ultimately it is an unavoidable individual moral decision that a person must make in that situation which the movie Casualties of War depicts very well. Finally, to glibly say that since war is about violence and rape is violence means that anything goes including rape is unacceptable. Well, let's see. If, as I do, you consider rape a form of violence, and the purpose of war to inflict more violence on your enemy than they inflict on you; and given that the war in question was one of the most brutal and cruel in human history, why would you think that rape would not be part and parcel of the violence involved? _ Get free photo software from Windows Live http://www.windowslive.com/online/photos?ocid=PID23393::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:SI_PH_software:082009 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Great Patriotic War
Surely and was not patriotic rhetoric used by the Communards in 1871 as it related to the Prussians and the Versailles regime? Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2009 15:37:32 +0300 From: dgn.g...@googlemail.com Subject: Re: [Marxism] Rape is not necessarily a consequence of war To: t...@hotmail.com The Great Patriotic War this expression has been referred to many times, probabily as a critique of the strategy of the Soviet Union. Below there is a passage from Engels' Speeches in Ebersfelde in which he ackonledges this. From various writings and letters of Marx and Engels I know that they reject to rely on the concept of patriotism as long as the proletariat fights for taking the power. But if it comes into power, Engels seems to imply, then it has to defend a real fatherland. This is however not valid for the relationship among communist nations. It may only be necessary if a communist society is attacked by anti-communist nations. The statement of Engels may give us some toughts about what happened in Soviet Union. _ Express your personality in color! Preview and select themes for Hotmail®. http://www.windowslive-hotmail.com/LearnMore/personalize.aspx?ocid=PID23391::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HYGN_express:082009 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] HItchens and Robert Service on Trotsky
these talking heads expound on Leon Trotsky at the Hoover Institution: http://fora.tv/2009/07/28/Uncommon_Knowledge_Christopher_Hitchens_Robert_Service _ Get your vacation photos on your phone! http://windowsliveformobile.com/en-us/photos/default.aspx?OCID=0809TL-HM YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fore!
Hey, I resemble that commentary-as Curly would say-having just taken up the sport last year. For what its worth my golfing buddy is a working class guy who lays carpets and we play on 9 hole courses that charge 14-20 bucks. It's about the only exercise I get anymore walking the course. What conditions are in Venezuela and the Third World are another matter. Obviously there are land use, zoning and water issues anywhere with the construction of these places, however. Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2009 09:22:12 -0400 From: markala...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Marxism] Fore! To: t...@hotmail.com Glad to hear Chávez is following up on the brilliant suggestion of George Carlin http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7C7c-nZIyfc ML _ Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=PID23384::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:NF_BR_sync:082009 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Woodstock 40 years ago: Country Joe McDonald's and Jimi Hendrix's antiwar classics | Links
Yeah, I remember that weekend. I was a 16 year old high school student and some of my acquaintances went up the road from the DC area to Woodstock which I remember being discussed before as this concert in upstate NY, with Woodstock being a label applied after the fact. It was going to cost $18 to get in which was a lot as I made the minimum wage of $1.60 an hour in my summer job. So where I actually was that weekend, as we were gearing up for the big anti-war protests of Oct-Nov 69, was at a meeting of the Young Socialist Alliance at Georgetown University where Peter Camejo was speaking and showing a slide show of his recent trip to Cuba until these Cuban exiles (gusanos) showed up and set off a tear gas cannister. Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 21:07:59 +1000 From: glparrama...@greenleft.org.au Subject: [Marxism] Woodstock 40 years ago: Country Joe McDonald's and Jimi Hendrix's antiwar classics | Links To: t...@hotmail.com 40 years ago -- from August 15 to August 18, 1969 -- hundreds of thousands of young people gathered for three days of ``peace, love and music''. In the midst of the mass movement against the Vietnam War and the youth radicalisation it unleashed, oppostion to the US slaughter in Vietnam was personified by the performances of Country Joe McDonald's ``I'm Fixin' to Die' Rag'' and Jimi Hendrix's searing anti-patriotic ``Star-Spangled banner''. Watch at http://links.org.au/node/1204 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/tcod%40hotmail.com _ Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=PID23384::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:NF_BR_sync:082009 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Woodstock 40 years ago: Country Joe McDonald's and Jimi Hendrix's antiwar classics | Links
Yeah and of course Marcuse-and I don't mean this as an attack on anyone here-talked about these polemics and how in the context of the 60s they represented an expression of the conservative outlook of the industrial proletariat and orthodox marxism against radical students, hippies and protesters. That sort of thing aroused the disapproval of Marx Engels. Engels wrote a an article debunking spiritualism, Natural Science and the Spirit World, which was later published in *The Dialectics of Nature*. http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1883/don/ch10.htm Jim F. ML Win the battle of the bulge with great liposuction solutions. Click now! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/BLSrjpTJeOLz058ZrzWRYW8cM766J24hZ5Fm9jvdfwqk1dpKwvPn5MMbwQ4/ YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/tcod%40hotmail.com _ Get free photo software from Windows Live http://www.windowslive.com/online/photos?ocid=PID23393::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:SI_PH_software:082009 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Woodstock, or how art lasts longer than politics (was: Exchange on Woodstock)
You're kidding, who could forget Dick Nixon? Coming back to Woodstock -- how many people dreaming of Woodstock and re-hearing its Music can tell who was POTUS then? Cheers, Lüko Willms Frankfurt, Germany YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/tcod%40hotmail.com _ Get back to school stuff for them and cashback for you. http://www.bing.com/cashback?form=MSHYCBpubl=WLHMTAGcrea=TEXT_MSHYCB_BackToSchool_Cashback_BTSCashback_1x1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Woodstock, or how art lasts longer than politics (was: Exchange on Woodstock)
No, but anyone who was old enough to have been at Woodstock will remember Nixon and the Vietnam War. _ With Windows Live, you can organize, edit, and share your photos. http://www.windowslive.com/Desktop/PhotoGallery YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Woodstock, or how art lasts longer than politics
well, some of us knew him as Tricky Dick BTW, asked for it, I would have answered that Lyndon B. Johnson had been POTUS during the time of the Woodstock festival. I would have to research papers to verify... But if it shall be Richard Nixon, so be it. It is not important. BTW, I could not recognize POTUS Nixon behind Dick Nixon. I knew him as Richard. Cheers, Lüko Willms Frankfurt, Germany YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/tcod%40hotmail.com _ Windows Live: Keep your friends up to date with what you do online. http://windowslive.com/Campaign/SocialNetworking?ocid=PID23285::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:SI_SB_online:082009 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Woodstock, or how art lasts longer than politics
and you've got to be a devotee of 'post-modern' dime novels to use CIA like lingolike POTUS. _ Windows Live: Make it easier for your friends to see what you’re up to on Facebook. http://windowslive.com/Campaign/SocialNetworking?ocid=PID23285::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:SI_SB_facebook:082009 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Alexander Cockburn RIP
Yeah, I mean, let's use words in their commonly understood meaning, particularly loaded terms like this one, and not waste time with obscurantist pedantry that isolates us from the real political struggles that the use of these terms reflects. _ Windows Live: Make it easier for your friends to see what you’re up to on Facebook. http://windowslive.com/Campaign/SocialNetworking?ocid=PID23285::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:SI_SB_facebook:082009 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] the truth about James Hansen of the SWP
Actually that's Joseph Hansen whose 1962 screed Cuba: The Acid Test in defense of the Cuban Revolution against sectarian critics is what got them going against him with these wild fabrications worthy of Stalin and the Moscow Trials. _ Windows Live: Keep your friends up to date with what you do online. http://windowslive.com/Campaign/SocialNetworking?ocid=PID23285::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:SI_SB_online:082009 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Silone biography
Today's New York Times has a review of a bio of this guy, whom I had never heard of, which compares the posthumous snitch controversy over him to the Dreyfus affair given the polarization over this issue that has arisen in Italian society. The reviewer's conclusion is that while he was an open cold-war liberal from the 50s on, he is unconvinced that the allegation that he was a fascist snitch during the 20s and 30s is true as he was in exile during that period. Rather, he suggests that the offending letters had to do with intervening with the authorities on behalf of his brother? _ Windows Live: Keep your friends up to date with what you do online. http://windowslive.com/Campaign/SocialNetworking?ocid=PID23285::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:SI_SB_online:082009 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Moderator's note
Thank you! we don't need to have this become another apst. Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2009 14:48:53 -0400 From: l...@panix.com Subject: [Marxism] Moderator's note To: t...@hotmail.com Greg Butler has been unsubbed. YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/tcod%40hotmail.com _ Windows Live: Make it easier for your friends to see what you’re up to on Facebook. http://windowslive.com/Campaign/SocialNetworking?ocid=PID23285::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:SI_SB_facebook:082009 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] the truth about James Hansen of the SWP
Look, you still don't get it, these Healyite provacateurs SUED the SWP in the US courts in the 1980s around these trumped up allegations causing that party to spend tens of thousands of dollars in court and attorneys fees fighting it. Maybe if you knew about this you'd realize that an attitude of solidarity is called for and not hand wringing about factionalism and overheated rhetoric. Maybe if it was Sam Marcy or Gloria LaRiva they had attacked you'd feel different and realize what this is about. Their latest antic was during the recent auto strike when they went around placing their main fire on the UNION which they claim is no longer a union and which workers should abandon, not pointing out the difference between the union and its reformist leaders. The whole raison d'etre of this outfit, rooted in the same political milieu as Lyndon LaRouche, is to harass and disrupt the Left. Comment Actually, I know much about the subject and most certainly the details of the murder of Malcolm X. Actually I know the specific tactic of how agents entered an organization and literally get pulled up through the ranks. In fact I gave reference sources for such activity years ago. _ With Windows Live, you can organize, edit, and share your photos. http://www.windowslive.com/Desktop/PhotoGallery YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] the truth about . . . combating the poltiical police
Look we do need to move on and I don't have time for along winded and condescending lecture from you about the bona fides of Workers World and PSL which I accept. No, this was not a trivial or petty squabble thing to those of us involved with it and was deadly serious and protracted fight. Anyone who knows who Joseph Hansen was and the circumstances of this fight knows that which was a real history that merits respect and an experience that needs to be learned from. Moreover, given that these characters claimed to be orthodox Trotskyists, calling out their lie that Trotsky's bodyguard was a fink is a Big Lie by reference to the Moscow Trials in the manner of talk about 'Stalinism' was apt in that context. If you don't care about it, why comment at such long winded length as you have no basis for belittling or questioning the tactics involved therein. You have the right to your opinion which is seriously uninformed but as you suggest let's not waste any more time on it. From: waistli...@aol.com Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2009 17:11:11 -0400 Subject: Re: [Marxism] the truth about . . . combating the poltiical police To: t...@hotmail.com Reply From a petty squabble about the role of agents in the murder of Trotsky, which I have zero interest in, my point of departure is to teach real history about combating the political police. Our job is to teach and transfer experience. Enough of this. WL (http://www.papercut.biz/emailStripper.htm) YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/tcod%40hotmail.com _ Get back to school stuff for them and cashback for you. http://www.bing.com/cashback?form=MSHYCBpubl=WLHMTAGcrea=TEXT_MSHYCB_BackToSchool_Cashback_BTSCashback_1x1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] to read?
seriously, I mean, for example, what are securitized mortgages? how does your mortgage get bundled and sold and traded en masse with others? For years we heard about derivatives without ever hearing-as with hedge funds any explanation of what they exactly were-aside from glib comments of business reporters, to say nothing of the pitchman ravings of Kramer-until finally a few months ago these began to be explained as side bets on bonds where people with no insurable interest in the bond would buy insurance covering the face amount of the bond against default; a situation where they have a heavy material interest-the only material interest, actually, in default resulting in payout. worthy of a casino, particularly where the amount of insurance coverage sold could exceed the value of the insured object exponentially when sold like the Brooklyn Bridge to numerous buyers. If not as Marxists then as political people we should talk about stuff like this, why it's criminal and should be outlawed and put forth some kind of program around it. More importantly are the circumstances of home lending. This foreclosure crisis is supposed to deepen in the next year as a whole class of loans, not as bad as sub-prime, but ones with variable interest are set to kick in to higher usorious rates. Estimated that tens of millions of new foreclosures will result causing downward mobility for many more formerly middle class people. _ Hotmail® is up to 70% faster. Now good news travels really fast. http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=PID23391::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HYGN_faster:082009 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] MyLai
Well, Lt. Calley apologized for the MyLai massacre, nothing yet from the US government about the war in general. As to MyLai where 500 unarmed men women and children were gunned down, at least one story has it that the order came from Abrams to liquidate Son My 4 as MyLai was also known. Abrams being the commander who had recently replaced Westmoreland at the time. _ Get back to school stuff for them and cashback for you. http://www.bing.com/cashback?form=MSHYCBpubl=WLHMTAGcrea=TEXT_MSHYCB_BackToSchool_Cashback_BTSCashback_1x1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] K2 study guide
Reminds me of the cover of Fortune a few years back showing a raging storm and wave poised to hit shore with the article's theme being how capitalism always fluctuates and is inherently unstable with the fortunes of any particular company never being secure or predictable. I don't know that insight is unique to Marxism in any sense. Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 19:45:58 -0700 From: bhand...@berkeley.edu Subject: [Marxism] K2 study guide To: t...@hotmail.com Grossman offered a profound disequilibrium interpretation of volume II, as Steve Palmer knows quite well (and please accept my profound thanks for your mighty contributions to the archive). By the way, J.R. Hicks came to a similar understanding of the special liabilities suffered by the capital goods industry due to fluctuating demand. _ Windows Live: Make it easier for your friends to see what you’re up to on Facebook. http://windowslive.com/Campaign/SocialNetworking?ocid=PID23285::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:SI_SB_facebook:082009 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] K2 study guide
meaning? how does this differ from financial and cost accounting? Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2009 14:51:28 -0400 From: theguavat...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Marxism] K2 study guide To: t...@hotmail.com On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 12:41 PM, S. Artesian sartes...@earthlink.netwrote: In fact capitalism doesn't reproduce ships or on the basis of ships at all. Capitalism reproduces on the basis of value, for which the ship is the carrier, the transport, the mule. a point that one would grasp all the more if one has read chapter 6 of volume 2 of Capital: The Costs of Circulation and part three of this The costs of transportation, which I think is debated in that Marx says that transportation of goods does not add to their value. I think Harvey takes issue with this is limits to capital as do others, looking at the MIA study questions for volume 2 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/tcod%40hotmail.com _ Windows Live: Keep your friends up to date with what you do online. http://windowslive.com/Campaign/SocialNetworking?ocid=PID23285::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:SI_SB_online:082009 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] K2 study guide
Ya know, this whole discussion to me is yet another reflection of the ossified in-group Talmudic view of certain Marxists who conceit themselves with the notion that nobody but them knows anything about economics and therefore the sine quo non is studying the works of a grand old man of the 19th Century, or that anyone who doesn't subscribe to and study the (schematic ironically) of dialectical materialism is mired in hidebound formalism. Actually a lot of people in society, whether through intuition or not, don't start from formal logic and have developed a fairly nuanced decision making process that starts from their own material interests: certainly the bosses have. _ With Windows Live, you can organize, edit, and share your photos. http://www.windowslive.com/Desktop/PhotoGallery YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] K2 study guide
Railroads in their inception and throughout their consolidation give us an early object lesson in the uses of fictitious capital.-sartesianAn entertaining take on this history, worthy of HBO's Deadwood are some recent biographies of Jay Gould and The Commodore Vanderbilt. Below is a review I wrote of a bio of Gould, Dark Genius of Wall Street, the Misunderstood [!] Life of Jay Gould, King of the Robber Barons: Helluva Guy [3 Stars]This entertaining volume reminds me of a book my mother bought decades ago by a descendant of Count Dracula that sought to rehabilitate his ancestor's reputation while cashing in on his notoriety. Thus in this work, Gould who was denounced in his day by even spokesmen of the conservative business community, to say nothing of labor activists, as an unscrupulous rogue, cutthroat, financial vampire and pirate is depicted as a misunderstood entreprenuer who did nothing that his rivals would not stoop to. While there may be more than a kernel of truth to that assertion, Gould's historical reputation as one of the most infamous incarnations of his day is backed by more than substantial evidence. Gould was a highly skilled financial operator who rose from humble roots in upstate New York, where after starting out as a surveyor's apprentice, he began his business career in the thuggish intrigues of the tanning industry. Thereafter, at the outset of the Civil War, he moved to the City where he quickly rose to take on some of the titans of business like Commodore Vanderbilt, who detested him. Unlike Vanderbilt, Carnegie, Rockefeller and even Morgan, however, Gould dealt almost exclusively in stock and financial manipulations to build his fortunes with little regard for building up industry and the means of production. Thus he would acquire properties, like the Erie Railroad, and run them into the ground and dump them after they had been milked dry as cash cows. Needless to say, the interests of the rank and file workers of these enterprises meant little to him, commenting once during a labor dispute he was embroiled in with them, that he could hire half the working class to kill off the other half. In his financial and stock dealings he was known as the most skilled and unscrupulous operator of his day, the top dog of Wall Street, that even those who considered themselves his closest colleagues needed to watch their backs around. In that regard he would have made the Transylvanian noble blush; and no, he was not, as widely believed, Jewish, although he made a point of not gainsaying his Hebraic roots as he felt this added to the aura of mystery and fear around him that he found useful to his purposes. Most notable of his escapades was his attempt to corner the gold market in 1869 which almost collapsed the entire U.S. economy. Jay Gould was a predatory speculative capitalist who rightly makes latter day embodiments of this type like Boesky, Millken and Skilling seem like bumbling amateurs. Like them, he did from time to time face legal troubles, but unlike these financial pirates of today, he was usually able to, sometimes quite brazenly, in a way that is fortunately no longer tolerated, bribe judges and politicians to escape any significant consequence, although on one occasion he was forced to temoporarily decamp to New Jersey with much of his wealth in carpet bags after Vanderbilt and his rivals had outmaneuvered him in this game of graft in the New York courts. _ Get back to school stuff for them and cashback for you. http://www.bing.com/cashback?form=MSHYCBpubl=WLHMTAGcrea=TEXT_MSHYCB_BackToSchool_Cashback_BTSCashback_1x1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Teddy
Yeah, his brother Bobby was counsel for Joe McCarthy in the 50s. Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2009 16:28:28 -0700 From: davidrai...@yahoo.com Subject: [Marxism] Teddy To: t...@hotmail.com Anyone know of any reliable exposes of Kennedy's history? I could use some ammunition with the Kennedy idolaters here in Boston. If you tremble with indignation at every injustice then you are a comrade of mine. Che YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/tcod%40hotmail.com _ Hotmail® is up to 70% faster. Now good news travels really fast. http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=PID23391::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HYGN_faster:082009 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Cockburn takes jeff mackler to task
Well, at least Socialist Action and Jeff Mackler are involved in the anti-war struggle to the extent that they would earn the public animosity of Cockburn, a nationally known columnist, a fact that by itself merits respect from those of us who might not have been in SF during this particular incident. _ Windows Live: Keep your friends up to date with what you do online. http://windowslive.com/Campaign/SocialNetworking?ocid=PID23285::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:SI_SB_online:082009 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] John Brown anniversary
I once saw a photo of August Blanqui that eerily reminded me of Brown. John Brown had been in Europe in the wake of the 1848-49 revolutions. And Hinton was always convinced that he had some direct ties to anticapitalist radicals there. ML YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/tcod%40hotmail.com _ Hotmail® is up to 70% faster. Now good news travels really fast. http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=PID23391::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HYGN_faster:082009 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Voting with feet, not commendable in Argentina Re: China'shigh speed rail plans
Why do you say that? Clearly one can have differences with their tactics and strategy, but to say they were not a leftist group or were not to the left of Peron seems dubious and sectarian. Moreover, why then did the Peron regime and its successors do so much to repress and kill them? Surely you don't mean to suggest we shouldn't have solidarity with them? By that logic the Weathermen were to the right of Nixon? (BTW, there was an excellent three hour interview on C-SPAN2 last night with Bill Ayers and Bernadine Dohrn) Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2009 00:07:44 -0300 From: nmg...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Marxism] Voting with feet, not commendable in Argentina Re:China'shigh speed rail plans To: t...@hotmail.com Look, Kosslof, if you think the Montoneros were in any way on Perón´s left, as most standard leftists in Arg believe, then you are so far away from Marxism that, as I guessed, it is pointless to discuss any of these issues with you. _ Get back to school stuff for them and cashback for you. http://www.bing.com/cashback?form=MSHYCBpubl=WLHMTAGcrea=TEXT_MSHYCB_BackToSchool_Cashback_BTSCashback_1x1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Voting with feet, not commendable in Argentina Re: China'shigh speed rail plans
What about the ERP? Wikipedia has an article on them that I think includes links to YouTube stuff on them in Spanish. they were at the heart of a heated faction fight within the trotskyist movement back in the 70s even though had summarily split from that at the time. While they were largely wiped out, Shining Path had more success with this strategy in Peru until they too were ultimately defeated. Then again, the demographics of Peru aren't the same as those of Argentina. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Revolutionary_Army_%28Argentina%29 _ Windows Live: Keep your friends up to date with what you do online. http://windowslive.com/Campaign/SocialNetworking?ocid=PID23285::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:SI_SB_online:082009 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Voting with feet, not commendable in Argentina Re: China'shigh speed rail plans
Yes, they openly and contemptuously repudiated trotskyism in favor of their version of Guevaraism The view you espouse I think was that of Nahuel Moreno and his faction of the PRT, a distinction the Wiki article on the PRT missed. Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 16:14:47 -0300 From: nmg...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Marxism] Voting with feet, not commendable in Argentina Re: China'shigh speed rail plans To: t...@hotmail.com I have also sent long commentaries on ERP to the list, long years ago. In a nutshell, ERP was never Trotskyist in any serious sense. _ With Windows Live, you can organize, edit, and share your photos. http://www.windowslive.com/Desktop/PhotoGallery YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Socialism in 2009?
The wisest minds the New York Times could assemble are parsing the above question with comments from the public invited. Go weigh in at: http://roomfordebate.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/09/14/what-is-socialism-in-2009/ _ Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222986/direct/01/ YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] WW2: interimperialist war to redivide the world
I appreciate where David is coming from but I think here he is giving the Devil more than his due. An uncle of mine was in the Marines in WW2 out there and was by no means a flaming radical, but told us that he was always troubled by the Australian planters he ran into out there and the way they ruthlessly exploited the natives and their overall racist redneck attitude, a set-up that reminded him of the American south or worse. As to Indonesia, keep in mind that this was a Dutch colony prior to the Japanese taking it and that some Indonesian including Sukarno viewed them as, if not as liberators, then as the lesser evil, something the Japanese pandered to and folks as far afield as Malcolm X picked up on and which is an attitude that it is entirely understandable for them to have had. I remember really getting into it with a right winger about 25 years ago around the 65 coup/massacre which this guy tried to dismiss on the basis that Sukarno had been a quisling for allegedly collaborating with the Japanese during the war. My response that at least he didn't collaborate with the Dutch! didn't seem to register with this jerk. While I never agreed with the Trotskyist line on World War 2, if there's one area where there so much to debunk this as the good war it's the Pacific sTheater which in a lot of ways was a pretty blatant inter-imperialist struggle for colonial domination. Thus the recriminations later about who lost China, the latter, meaning the Red Army, only getting limited grudging aid with everyone who had anything to do with that being run out of bourgois politics on a rail as a result during the witchhunt, beginning under Truman. From: suar...@alphalink.com.au Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 18:14:08 +1000 Subject: Re: [Marxism] WW2: interimperialist war to redivide the world To: t...@hotmail.com David worte some time ago, regarding World War II Or the Indonesians? WHY did they welcome British and US troops then? Was there something WORSE about the Japanese occupation vs the historic Dutch or US occupations? I don't know what Lou said in reply, because when I click on it I get an error message. So I hope this doesn't repeat anything. Who says the Indonesian masses welcomed British and US troops? US troops don't really figure in this. It would make more sense to refer to Australian troops. Some Indonesians were indeed pro-western, notablly the followers of the social democracy and the Communists. However the main section of the independence movement tactically collaborated with Japan. Which is not to say that they actually liked Japanese imperialism, it was all about positioning themselves for independence. When the allied troops arrived in Java, there were pitched battles. The biggest was at Surabaya where the British onslaught was extremely bloody but did not crush the independence movement. Further east the Australians helped install the Dutch butcher Paul Westerling against the will of the people. It's noteworthy that a lot of Australian rank and file soldiers sympathised with the Indonesians and helped where they could. Also that 2,000 or so Japanese soldiers deserted to join the Indonesian liberation struggle, most of them dying in battle. YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/tcod%40hotmail.com _ Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222985/direct/01/ YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] WW2: interimperialist war to redivide the world,
a good fictional scenario of the legacy of this outcome is the movie Fatherlandabout a super-power summit between Hitler, who is turning 75 and President Kennedy in Berlin in 1964. President Joseph Kennedy that is. (who not only approved the 1938 Munichdeal but who was actually one of its architects). Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 13:26:58 -0700 From: dwalters...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Marxism] WW2: interimperialist war to redivide the world, To: t...@hotmail.com Tom, thanks for your comments. It is not for me, historically, whether WWII was a good war. No imperialist war ever is Good. For that matter, no war is good. But...my question always revolves around what if (Louis P. hates 'what ifs', understandably) Britain was, say, knocked out of the war, forced to sue for peace from the Germans. Totally plausible. [Same with the US in the Pacific and the US was forced to not participate in the war in any meaningful measure.] This avoids the question of a successful peace or, America First question, per se, but with the same results. This is especially an important question for Europe and, more specifically, the USSR and a Nazi occupied Europe. I simply see Britain losing (a colloquial version of a Leninist defeatist position) as not particularly a good thing, and in fact disastrous for humanity. And this is where I depart from common Trotskyist positions on WWII, which, arguably, is most 'orthodox' of Leninist positions out there on this subject. David YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/tcod%40hotmail.com _ Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail®. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_QuickAdd_062009 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Sexual Assault
For what its worth, a felony criminal conviction by itself proves up a civil case based on the same conduct. From: ffeld...@bellatlantic.net Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2009 05:57:33 -0400 Subject: [Marxism] Sexual Assault To: t...@hotmail.com If the lawyer thinks you have a good case bring a civil suit against the asshole. In a civil suit there is a much higher chance the attacker will be exposed as a sexual predator and lose his bank account and all the rest of his stuff, instead of smirking as the criminal court judge says, case dismissed. YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/tcod%40hotmail.com _ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] crime
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 22:09:09 +0200 From: d.koech...@wanadoo.fr Subject: [Marxism] crime To: t...@hotmail.com Are you sure that was all that Mao was about? Didn't he and the CCP have some involvement in the epochal social revolution that occurred in China in the last century? Just seems like a right wing comic book version of history papered over with leftist rhetoric. Was Mao a tyrant? could be? but what kind of a tyrant was he, what social forces were behind him and what was his historical role in Chinese history? What was his relationship with the masses of workers and peasants who could care less about the petty personal intrigues among leadership cliques. Henry VIII was a tyrant and a pig who had two of his wives killed (evidence Mao did that?), but to just disparage him on that basis without alluding to or appreciating his broader role in English history in terms of say expulsion of the Catholic Church would reflect an impoverished view of history. Mao was an awful tyrant. In order to reach the top of the Chinese Communist Party, he , either, betrayed his friends to the Kuomintang, or had them confess and executed them on trumped-up charges . He had four wives, two of which he cynically caused to be killed in order to re-marry. Mao was truly a despicable example of a human being. Preoccupied only by himself and how he could out-wit the other members of the Politburo. _ Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222984/direct/01/ YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] The Victim's Words: Samantha Geimer
the idea is that there are broader issues involved with crime that go beyond an individual victim's wishes. Thus her view should be considered but is not necessarily dispositive. We see this in domestic violence cases a lot. Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 18:23:35 -0700 From: adambrichm...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Marxism] The Victim's Words: Samantha Geimer To: t...@hotmail.com I am stunned that someone on this list would defend the rape Have I defended a rape? I have given the right of the victim of the crime to speak. You apparently disagree with her conclusions to have her own say in the matter for the greater good of the bourgeois courts. The judge proved his inability to honor the plea agreement. And a million dollars, or what ever she negotiated, probably helped her more that his jailing. The question here is who decides. Does the court deserve a second chance, despite the victim's opinion. Adam YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/tcod%40hotmail.com _ Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222986/direct/01/ YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Post
right and this hyper-correct argument gets twisted even more by sectarians when it is directed at movements of the oppressed or movements objectively in support of them. Thus some, instead of showing solidarity, insolently ranted and raved at Quakers protesting the Christmas bombing of Vietnam since marxists don't do that or support milquetoast pacifism that opposes war in general. But were the Quakers in that instance opposing war in general and if they were, in what specific context were they doing it? Moreover, unlike their sectarian critics, at least they were doing something besides heaping derision and mockery on the peoples struggle in the manner of snide rich schoolboys and their little intellectual games which shows, to borrow a phrase from Bob Avakian, their utter rightism. Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 07:04:12 -0400 From: saboca...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Marxism] Post To: t...@hotmail.com Ambrose Andrews wrote: Ruling classes have never in all of recorded human history paid the slightest attention to pacifist or moral pleadings to peacefully give up their wealth and power. Pacifists consequently direct their appeals to the oppressed, which disarms and weakens successful resistance and contributes to the maintenance of the system which causes war. This is an ahistorical argument that does not take into account specific examples of nonviolent resistance as a tactical form of struggle, which, I would argue, is the closest marxists have ever come to pacifism as such. In other words, sometimes marxists have supported tactical non-violence, but not pacifism as an ethic. Just to give two examples off the top of my head, the refusal to fight among the troops during the Vietnam War had considerable consequences for the ruling class, as did the Civil-Rights movement., both of which were in the main non-violent movements. Of course, there was quite a bit of fragging by the troops as well, and many Civil Rights organizers kept weapons in their homes for protection. In any event, in addition to the citation provided by Andrews, Caudwell also has a Marxist critique of pacifism which can be read here: http://www.marxists.org/archive/caudwell/1935/pacifism-violence.htm YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/tcod%40hotmail.com _ Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more. http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen2:102009 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Gore Vidal in the Atlantic
because of what, his comments on Polanski? Otherwise the interview is the same old left-liberal he's always been. _ Windows 7: It helps you do more. Explore Windows 7. http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen3:102009 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Naxalites Gain in India
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/01/world/asia/01maoist.html?pagewanted=1ref=global-home _ Windows 7: It helps you do more. Explore Windows 7. http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen3:102009 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Gore Vidal in the Atlantic
Well, I didn't see any of that other stuff in the the article you linked us to. I haven't ever heard him speak about the Chinese, however I do recall his article about McVeigh in Vanity Fair written when the guy was a condemned man which I think focused on the civil liberties aspects of that case and the social causes of this phenomena, views that I recall had little that was objectionable. The idea that he promoted the racist views of these folks is incorrect or that adheres to right wing nativism is ridiculous. Moreover, Vidal, unlike much of the sectarian left which ran for cover at the time, spoke out against and stood up to the Daley and the Chicago cops and their defenders like Wm F. Buckley (who called him a fag and threatened him on the air) during the 1968 protests. Thus I think you misunderstand and therefore have misrepresented Vidal's views. From: bhaskar.sunk...@gmail.com Not just those disgusting, reprehensible comments, but have you ever heard him discuss the Chinese threat? His anti-imperialism is right-wing nativism, his defense of Timothy McVaugh, Pim Fortuyn and the militia movement aren't aberrations. I wouldn't attach the word left anywhere near him. _ Windows 7: Simplify your PC. Learn more. http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen1:102009 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fight far from over in Honduras: Will pact allow Zelaya to use the bully pulpit?
This is all well and good but I'm wondering why I no longer receive posts from these two worthies and others in my hotmail account? I look in the junk folder and they're not there either. I retrieved these two posts from the last 100 messages site. S.Artesian wrote: Yeah, Vidal spoke out against the cops in 1968-- big deal, so did Abraham Ribicoff and from the podium of the convention. Are we supposed to get all misty-eyed over that 41 year old stance? moderator: I will always have a soft spot for Vidal after reading this in Palimpsest, one of his memoirs: As I left Henry Kissinger in the Sistine Chapel, gazing thoughtfully at the hell section of 'The Last Judgment,' I said to the lady with me, 'Look, he's apartment hunting.' _ New Windows 7: Find the right PC for you. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/pc-scout/default.aspx?CBID=wlocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_pcscout:112009 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Hampton
Black Panther Party Program courtesy of Dave W. and the MIA: http://www.marxists.org/history/usa/workers/black-panthers/1966/10/15.htm so there was a lot more to it than off the pigs just as the Bolshevik Revolution included a lot of vulgar rhetoric not included in Trotsky's book. _ Windows 7: Unclutter your desktop. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9690331ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen:112009 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Panthers
many thanks to the brother from: www.route-one.org Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 15:02:21 -0500 From: rjacobs3...@charter.net Subject: Re: [Marxism] Panthers The Panthers were more than gun fetishists. They understood the doctrine of self-defense and carried guns during their copwatch drives mainly because was the only way the Oakland cops would acknowledge them and leave whatever citizen they were harassing alone. _ Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/ YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fred Hampton
Louis: You were in the 8th grade in 1968, weren't you, Ron? I marvel at your ability to educate me about the Panthers. Actually Ron was from the University of Maryland campus that I attended from1971-1976 but was several years older being from among those activists that had been in SDS. More on this at: http://www.route-one.org/ There's a lot of talk about Argentina etc. but no mention of Newark, Watts, the ghetto rebellions after MLK's assassination etc which was the context of the emergence of the Panthers. No, the issue is not one of nostalgia at all but of a spirit of solidarity (to say nothing of sensitivity to their situation) and how to approach frontline movements and activists. The approach of moderator and his cothinkers was to view them as opponents they had to arrogantly counterpose themselves to, a fundamentally sectarian and inept outlook. The broad mass of the movement including organizations led by veterans of the 30s and the 40s, like the Communist Party and Workers World, was different which is why they made gains in the black community and were able to have some influence with Panther activists and the trot milieu didn't. Same attitude to a slightly lesser extent emerged around Native Americans and Wounded Knee. How are you going to supposedly teach these front line militants lessons in organizing their own communities if you have no roots in it and how are you gonna get those roots if you diss em by arrogantly talking down to them while their under fire in the manner of German High Doctor? It's politically wrong and socially inept, if a politically safe approach. The attitude expressed by moderator is the type of self serving caricature of the movement, unwittingly recycling right wing stereotypes about the movement, that the trots used to justify their abstention from it. I regret he has not moved farther away from that attitude. Another example: when we were occupied by the National Guard at Maryland in 1972 and placed under martial law for a week, the Party branch in DC's lack of enthusiasm for this was palpable and they did virtually nothing to get involved in this, even though we were ten miles away and later when the campus YSA organizer gave a report on this to the Branch displaying a full page red fist logo poster from the campus daily newspaper, a leading comrade rushed up screaming that he was miseducating people with that ultraleft stuff. Of course she had never bothered to come out on campus to check things out. That a couple of those YSAers we lost to WWP in the wake of this who ended up going to Cuba in 1974 didn't faze them, they didn't care, they were too busy worried about stuff like the internal crisis in the Fourth International and other irrelevant *inside baseball* bullshit that made them feel important but, like them, had little to do with the progressive movement. _ Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/ YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] New Book on Fred Hampton Assasination
Gee, so what about Angela Davis and her trial in Marin County. C'mon. From: marvgand...@videotron.ca Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 17:16:51 -0500 Subject: Re: [Marxism] New Book on Fred Hampton Assasination To: t...@hotmail.com Tom Cod writes: I note the CP, for all its faults, had a different approach and was in the thick of solidarity with them and made political gains in that milieu... === The CP was uniformally opposed to the Panthers' program and tactics in much the same way the SWP was. _ Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/ YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] A few words In Defense of the Black Panther Party
And what struck me was how in the process how little time was devoted to exposing the crimes of Franco and fascism with the onus therefor being shifted to the Stalinists, many of whom were victims of fascist repression, arguments recycled and coopted constantly by neo-cons, ex-trot or not: quite frankly an anti-communist obsession that fit in well with the atmosphere in this country at that time, explaining how bad those commies really were. After having gotten to know some communists later I started to question that orthodoxy which kind of went against the grain of my upbringing in a liberal FDR loving family of WW2 veterans, not that Stalin wasn't a creep, the 1939 pact with Hitler being the all time low for him and the CPs who upheld that. From: bia...@embarqmail.com Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 14:14:28 -0500 Subject: Re: [Marxism] A few words In Defense of the Black Panther Party To: t...@hotmail.com Louis, I can understand why from this vantage-point one can consider the founding of the Fourth International a sectarian mistake. However, at the time that Trotsky proposed it, Stalinism was not only a mass movement in the working class throughout the world, it was capable of any kind of crime imaginable. The Spanish Civil War, for example, was in progress at the time that the F.I. was being organized and was at the center of political debate. It always struck me as a new recruit to the YSA in 1969 how much energy the older generation used to denounce Stalinism and educate us on its crimes. The Fourth International was launched to combat Stalinism and social democracy in the working class, with the belief that without doing so socialist revolution was not possible. _ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] WSWS review of Robert Service Trotsky bio
Here's a link to a youtube video where Service and self-proclaimed post-Trotskyist Christopher Hitchens discuss Trotsky and Service's book thereon: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4v3y-zFW9A _ Bing brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. http://www.bing.com/search?q=restaurantsform=MFESRPpubl=WLHMTAGcrea=TEXT_MFESRP_Local_MapsMenu_Resturants_1x1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Nov. 15, 1969
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == 40 years ago today was the monster protest, actually a culmination of a series of protests nationwide going back to the Moratorium of Oct. 15, 1969, called by New Mobe, the Moratorium Committee and SMC (Student Mobe) , that occurred in DC and SF. It was by far the biggest protest I ever attended with over half a million in attendance. Daniel Ellsberg later stated (in answer to cynical naysayers) that these events actually deterred Nixon from launching Operation Duck Hoop at that time to bomb the dikes in Vietnam. _ Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/ Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Students Score Win For Labor
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Labor Fight Ends in Win for Students By Steven Greenhouse New York Times, 11/18/09 The anti-sweatshop movement at dozens of American universities, from Georgetown to U.C.L.A., has had plenty of idealism and energy, but not many victories. Until now. The often raucous student movement announced on Tuesday that it had achieved its biggest victory by far. Its pressure tactics persuaded one of the nation’s leading sportswear companies, Russell Athletic, to agree to rehire 1,200 workers in Honduras who lost their jobs when Russell closed their factory soon after the workers had unionized. From the time Russell shut the factory last January, the anti-sweatshop coalition orchestrated a nationwide campaign against the company. Most important, the coalition, United Students Against Sweatshops, persuaded the administrations of Boston College, Columbia, Harvard, New York University, Stanford, Michigan, North Carolina and 89 other colleges and universities to sever or suspend their licensing agreements with Russell. The agreements — some yielding more than $1 million in sales — allowed Russell to put university logos on T-shirts, sweatshirts and fleeces. Going beyond their campuses, student activists picketed the N.B.A. finals in Orlando and Los Angeles this year to protest the league’s licensing agreement with Russell. They distributed fliers inside Sports Authority sporting goods stores and sent Twitter messages to customers of Dick’s Sporting Goods to urge them to boycott Russell products. The students even sent activists to knock on Warren Buffett’s door in Omaha because his company, Berkshire Hathaway, owns Fruit of the Loom, Russell’s parent company. “It’s a very important breakthrough,” said Mel Tenen, who oversees licensing agreements for the University of Miami, the first school to sever ties with Russell. “It’s not often that a major licensee will take such a necessary and drastic step to correct the injustices that affected its workers. This paves the way for us to seriously consider reopening our agreement with Russell.” Other colleges are expected to do the same. Analysts say the college market occupies a significant part of Russell’s business. Because Fruit of the Loom does not detail Russell’s sales, it is not known how large a part.In its agreement, not only did Russell agree to reinstate the dismissed workers and open a new plant in Honduras as a unionized factory, it also pledged not to fight unionization at its seven existing factories there. Mike Powers, a Cornell official who is on the board of the Worker Rights Consortium, said Cornell had canceled its licensing agreement because it viewed Russell’s closing of the Honduras factory as a flagrant violation of the university’s code of conduct, which calls for honoring workers’ freedom of association. He applauded Russell’s agreement, which was reached with the consortium and union leaders in Honduras over the weekend. “This is a landmark event in the history of workers’ rights and the codes of conduct that we expect our licensees to follow,” Mr. Powers said. “My hat is off to Russell.” John Shivel, a spokesman for Russell and Fruit of the Loom, said, “We are very pleased with the agreement between Russell Athletic and the Workers Rights Consortium, and look forward to its implementation.” He declined to discuss why Russell had adopted a friendlier attitude toward unionization after years of aggressively fighting unions. In a statement Russell released jointly with the apparel workers’ union in Honduras, the company said the agreement was “intended to foster workers’ rights in Honduras and establish a harmonious” relationship. “This agreement represents a significant achievement in the history of the apparel sector in Honduras and Central America,” the joint statement said. In the past, the Honduran workers condemned Russell’s behavior, saying that it had fired 145 workers in 2007 for supporting a union. The union’s vice president, Norma Mejia, said at a Berkshire Hathaway shareholders’ meeting last May that she had received death threats for helping lead the union. Russell denied the assertion. Union leaders in Honduras hailed the agreement, which would put hundreds of laid-off employees back to work in a country whose economy has been hit by a political crisis over who will lead it. “For us, it was very important to receive the support of the universities,” Moises Alvarado, president of the union at the closed plant in Choloma, said by telephone on Tuesday. “We are impressed by the social conscience of the students in the United States.” This was in no way an overnight victory — it came after 10 years of building a movement that persuaded scores of
Re: [Marxism] Best books on Allende
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Also try: Revolution and Counter-Revolution in Chile by Michel Raptis (aka Michel Pablo),St. Martin's Press, 1974. _ Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/ Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] NYT: OpEd on John Brown 150 years later
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Freedom’s MartyrBy DAVID S. REYNOLDSIT’S important for Americans to recognize our national heroes, even those who have been despised by history. Take John Brown.Today is the 150th anniversary of Brown’s hanging — the grim punishment for his raid weeks earlier on Harpers Ferry, Va. With a small band of abolitionists, Brown had seized the federal arsenal there and freed slaves in the area. His plan was to flee with them to nearby mountains and provoke rebellions in the South. But he stalled too long in the arsenal and was captured. He was brought to trial in a Virginia court, convicted of treason, murder and inciting an insurrection, and hanged on Dec. 2, 1859. It’s a date we should hold in reverence. Yes, I know the response: Why remember a misguided fanatic and his absurd plan for destroying slavery? There are compelling reasons. First, the plan was not absurd. Brown reasonably saw the Appalachians, which stretch deep into the South, as an ideal base for a guerrilla war. He had studied the Maroon rebels of the West Indies, black fugitives who had used mountain camps to battle colonial powers on their islands. His plan was to create panic by arousing fears of a slave rebellion, leading Southerners to view slavery as dangerous and impractical.Second, he was held in high esteem by many great men of his day. Ralph Waldo Emerson compared him to Jesus, declaring that Brown would “make the gallows as glorious as the cross.” Henry David Thoreau placed Brown above the freedom fighters of the American Revolution. Frederick Douglass said that while he had lived for black people, John Brown had died for them. A later black reformer, W. E. B. Du Bois, called Brown the white American who had “come nearest to touching the real souls of black folk.” Du Bois was right. Unlike nearly all other Americans of his era, John Brown did not have a shred of racism. He had long lived among African-Americans, trying to help them make a living, and he wanted blacks to be quickly integrated into American society. When Brown was told he could have a clergyman to accompany him to the gallows, he refused, saying he would be more honored to go with a slave woman and her children.By the time of his hanging, John Brown was so respected in the North that bells tolled in many cities and towns in his honor. Within two years, the Union troops marched southward singing, “John Brown’s body lies a-mouldering in the grave, but his soul keeps marching on.” Brown remained a hero to the North right up through Reconstruction.However, he fell from grace during the long, dark period of Jim Crow. The attitude was, who cares about his progressive racial views, except a few blacks? His reputation improved a bit with the civil rights movement, but he is still widely dismissed as a deranged cultist. This is an injustice to a forward-thinking man dedicated to the freedom and political participation of African-Americans. O.K., some might say, but how about the blotches on his record, especially the murders and bloody skirmishes in Kansas in the 1850s? Brown considered himself a soldier at war. His attacks on pro-slavery forces were part of an escalating cycle of pre-emptive and retaliatory violence that most historians now agree were in essence the first engagements of the Civil War.Besides, none of the heroes from that period is unblemished. Lincoln was the Great Emancipator, but he shared the era’s racial prejudices, and even after the war started thought that blacks should be shipped out of the country once they were freed. Andrew Jackson was the man of his age, but in addition to being a slaveholder, he has the extra infamy of his callous treatment of Native Americans, for which some hold him guilty of genocide. John Brown comes with “buts” — but in that he has plenty of company. He deserves to be honored today. For starters, he should be pardoned. Technically, Gov. Tim Kaine of Virginia would have to do this, since Brown was tried on state charges and executed there. Such a posthumous pardon by a state occurred just this October, when South Carolina pardoned two black men who were executed 94 years ago for murdering a Confederate veteran.A presidential pardon, however, would be more meaningful. Posthumous pardons are by definition symbolic. They’re intended to remove stigma or correct injustice. While the president cannot grant pardons for state crimes, a strong argument can be made for a symbolic exception in Brown’s case. By today’s standards, his crime was arguably of a federal nature, as his attack was on a federal arsenal in what is now West Virginia. His actions were prompted by federal slavery rulings he considered despicable, especially the Supreme Court’s Dred Scott decision.
Re: [Marxism] The CPUSA is still ga-ga
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == including for the world-historic victory of the revolution in 1949, one of the most epochal events in human history? give us a break! That is the realm of perdition reserved for anything in China after 1927 _ Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/ Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] The CPUSA is still ga-ga
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Yeah, and another thing in the actual CP program the last time I looked was a jaundiced commentabout all those trotskyite and maoist groups as kibitzers who at best do nothing constructive to build the movement, but make sterile critiques from the sidelines designed to demoralize and confuse people and at worst as a training ground for enemy intellectuals. _ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] The CPUSA is still ga-ga
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == sartesian:1. Somebody posts a piece asking if the moderator would, based on the content of the piece, bounce the author. 2. Apparently, the poster thinks the piece is of such quality, content, substance, that it belongs on a discussion list of explicitly Marxist adherents. It is logical then to examine the piece for anything that would qualify it as Marxist. And that issue is whether this list should constructed on a such a dogmatic, circumsribed, sectarian basis. There are plenty of such venues around, I thought the point of this one was to be different. If you think someone is liberal or whatever, then explain why and why that's bad before we just bounce or otherwise demonize people. Sure I know full well what marxist dogma is having had it rammed down my throat since an early age. It doesn't mean I have to agree with it, particularly when my experiences in the real world-where I have encountered view, if any, marxists in decades- and my canine intuition don't jibe with it. _ Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222984/direct/01/ Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Technical Problem or Interference?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == One last thing: The reason I have not paid closer attention is that for the last couple months, half of the posts never make it to my in-box, none of artesians or moderator's do, for example, so I have to look to the latest 100 page for updates and the entire list of another listerv (route-one.org) has disappeared including my own posts. I'm not sure whether there's anything untoward going on, maybe I ought to switch to gmail after all. _ Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222985/direct/01/ Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] test
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == test Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] The CPUSA is still ga-ga
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Well there was certainly more than three degrees of separation between Mao and Chaing Kai Shek and the Japanese imperialists. William Hinton and other observers, including the US' Dixie Mission to the 8th Route Army documented the great changes going on in Chinese society under the aegis of the Red Army at the time of the revolution and how starkly that contrasted with life under the KMT. On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 5:00 PM, sobuadha...@hushmail.com wrote: I would certainly agree with you on the epochal part but I have it on good authority here that there really was no Chinese revolution. In fact Mao Zedong represented merely 3 degrees of separation from Deng Xiaoping meaning the the Chinese embrace of capitalism from the 1990's on was an inevitable product of the revolution that never happened. There are details about the average size of land holdings by peasants in Northern China which I will be happy to send you off list. Please pay attention comrade and read the posts on China more carefully Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Slandering Patricia Highsmith
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Thanks for clarifying this so promptly. I just gone done reading that review in the hard copy of the NYT that we get delivered on Sunday and you'd think from reading it that she had been a part of the Cliveden Set or a partisan of Mosely, particularly given the additional context presented of how cold blooded she and her characters like Ripley are described in the article as expressions of her persona. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Manure
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == My understanding is that peasant is simply a euro word for farmer, without more (thus we had kulaks described as rich peasants). Moreover, I think it's potentially simplistic and misleading to categorize all farmers who sell part of their crops as capitalists. Leaving aside that unlike shopkeepers they are producers, the level and scale of their business in many cases is very limited with in many cases little or no labor involved being contributed outside the family. Moreover, these folks tend to be much less culturally bourgoisified or gentrified than certain urban working layers like certain office workers, at least that's what I remember Lenin talking about in explaining the hostility of certain people to Bolshevism in the 1917-18 period. Having also been an office worker, I'm not trying to demonize them either but I appreciate the point. A college teacher once told me that class is not merely a function of mechanical relations to property but also a matter of cultural experience which i think has some validity up to a point. For example a redneck truck driver who owns his own truck who lives in a hard scrabble mining town could be reasonably viewed as more of a working class person than the grad student in French literature from an affluent suburb who is working in a pizza parlor, who might be viewed-and view himself- as middle class although both are workers in a basic sense. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Manure
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Huh, I always thought the difference between peasant and farmer was a linguistic one. Clearly peasants and farmers can have social stratifications within them. So what about rich peasants and kulaks, weren't they simply rich farmers who in fact sold produce for money? and weren't the dirt farmers of the 19th and 20th centuries in this country peasants but for our cultural aversion to such terms. Surely James Agee would have gotten socked in the mouth if he had been overheard referring to his subjects as peasants, regardless of the academic merits of the term. As to the guy in the MG, I don't know whether he was a college student or not, I imagined he was a stock broker or some rich petty bourgois of the Philly main line. In any event it wasn't a straw man to the extent it is a true anecdote through which I was trying to explore a serious issue not as a tool of a vitriolic ideological or academic contest. For me social knowledge has come as much from personal experiences in society (or the field to academics) as it has from book reading and study groups although the two can inform each other. I remember the first days I worked in an actual industrial size factory that worked around the clock-a salmon cannery-in 1983; it was a sensory and mental overload, . . . means of production . . . .pretty enlightening, actually. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] [microsound] Manure
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == (first attempt to postfrom cellphone no excess text shown) The comment about not finding any data at USDA to show farmers as a class is a sociologically loaded one as class is an abstraction based on empirical evidence, although people can have varyig degress of awareness of this or class conciuosness. All the USDA, or the Census for that matter, purports to do is collect and disseminate certain raw data, not to make sweeping conclusory statements about social class and demogrraphy. That is for others to do in interpreting this information Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Freya von Moltke, Part of a Core of Nazi Resistance, Is Dead at 98
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == For those who don't know, that ancestor being the General Moltke who commanded the victorious Prussian forces in 1870-71 that defeat Napoleon III, marched through a subjugated Paris and had Prussian King Wilhelm I crowned Emperor (Kaiser) of the newly found German Empire (or Reich) at Versailles while the Parisians rose up in the Commune against this and the greedy machinations of Thiers and the haute bourgoisie who dined with Kaiser and Bismarck at Versailles. The circle and the Moltke family benefited from the immense prestige of Count Moltke’s military ancestor. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Freya von Moltke, Part of a Core of Nazi Resistance, Is Dead at 98
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I tend to agree with artesian's take on this. The unification of Germany by Prussian arms was probably a step forward for Germany, the narrative of which that we were presented by Nestor being the standard one held throughout most of German society, true but unremarkable, with the Nazis later put their own demonic-even from the standpoint of Greater German chauvinism-anti-semitic spin on this later. I'm reading a book about Louis Brandeis whose father was an ethnic German Jew from Bohemia or what is now the Czech Republic and whose first ethnic identity was always German. It was only in the wake of the Great War that his son began seriously embracing Zionism. Ironically, many of the German Americans who volunteered for Germany in WW1 during the US' period of neutrality were actually Jewish. Whether Germany's unification necessarily entailed an invasion of France or the subjugation of the Parisian people is another question entirely as that task would have been carried out one way or another before too long as it was in Italy in that period given the overwhelming consensus in support of it at all levels of society. 1870-71 was not 1848 and the Prussian army was not a revolutionary one, not even by the watered down standards of Napoleon I. It's ironic that Marx, conditioned by his German nationality comments positively on the defeat of the first Napoleon in 1815, as that was definitely a setback for the German people and progress generally, representing the triumph of Reaction in Europe (in fact I think that term originates from this period as do the political expressions left and right). For example, the reason Marx's father, a lawyer, converted to Christianity was because in the wake of the triumph of the Holy Alliance, laws inspired by the French Revolution and Bonaparte lifting restrictions against Jews in society were repealed and the Jews ordered back into their ghettos. It was actually in this context that the Monroe Doctrine was elucidated in 1821, a message, albeit a grandstanding one from a small power, to the Concert of Europe, to not carry out a reconquest of Spain's colonies in the Americas, as they had threatened to do as part of their crusade to restore monarchical and imperial legitimacy per the precepts of the Congress of Vienna. It's telling the Kissinger's intellectual outlook is rooted in a study of the this period with Metternich as his model. It's clear that the support for Germany was not an endorsement, was quite limited... and clearly was a mistake, as there is for capitalism, for the establishment of capitalism or capitalist unity, no such thing as a defensive war; that subjugation of the working class on either side of the conflict is the clear priority of the capitalism on any side of the conflict, and that, in fact unified German capitalism was no more progressive than the decadent, imperial, capitalism of Louis Bonaparte's France, and that the German working class has/had every need to establish its unity, its unification of Germany but had no need whatsoever for the establishment of a unified German capitalism. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/tomcod3%40gmail.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Freya von Moltke, Part of a Core of Nazi Resistance, Is Dead at 98
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == And how evolutionary was that? Actually, as artesian pointed out, that analysis is flawed on its own terms as these grabs did nothing to overthrow feudal relations or indirectly advance the cause of the proletariat. In fact as to Mexico, it was designed to do exactly the opposite, to reinforce and expand those conditions through a huge land grab on the part of slave owning forces who were the most enthusiastic boosters of this. We all know what Honest Abe's view of this was, which he denounced as blatant aggression on the floor of the House. I just got finished reading the first volume of Donald's bio of Charles Sumner which shows that Sumner viewed this war in the same light and viewed those Whigs who supported it, the way socialists viewed those who supported WW1, as betrayers of the worst sort, seeing it, similar to 1914, as a clarion call for a new free soil political party which later evolved into the Republicans, or the primary core thereof. On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 5:37 PM, Mark Lause markala...@gmail.com wrote: , , , Any such move as national unification is always going to reflect its bourgeois premises. Consider the long and sordid history of constructing the United States, mostly on the bones of native peoples and its Mexican neighbors. ML Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/tomcod3%40gmail.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Freya von Moltke, Part of a Core of Nazi Resistance, Is Dead at 98
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Actually, I don't have pretensions of speaking for anyone but myself. As artesian has eloquently demonstrated, the conditions in the US were dramatically different from those in industrialized Germany-in and outside of Prussia. Moreover, and this is where the moral reference, sanctimonious or not, comes in: no persons in Germany suffered the levels of oppression of African slaves in the US, certainly not as a function of not being part of a unified Germany under Prussia. In other words, the level of their national oppression and the compellingness of the national question on a human level was of an entirely different order. Again, the war was not against the other German states but against France which was used as a foil-the bogeyman or lightning rod-to motivate everyone to mobilize under one flag, something that surely would have happened anyway peacefully in short order as no one was in any position to credibly oppose it, particularly when coming from the most industrialized and militarily powerful country in Europe. I don't know what the proletarian and bourgois lines on what now is an obscure issue were. As my quote of Bakunin, in his day and the generation after his passing, as central a working class leader as Marx was, indicates, together with Marx's own views is that no clear consensus around support of Germany at all existed in what ended up being upstaged by the Paris Commune at which time much of former radical opinion in support of Prussia swung radically and swiflty the other way; Garibaldi being the most famous example. As to the bourgois line: if there is one it is a function of 20th Century historiography that emanated in the midst of the anti-German hysteria during World War I that glorified Britain and France, particularly the latter and demonized everything to do with The Hun; I don't know that the US capitalists had any particular view of it at the time in 1870 beyond who they could make money from. Finally it was exactly during this 1914-18 period that socialists, Wobblies and other anti-war activists were tagged by the bourgois media as being pro-German etc., a view that you still see in history books. Debs, in the 1918 speech that sent him to prison, went out of his way to debunk this, talking about how socialists opposed the militarism of all imperialist powers, how the German anti-war socialists opposed the Kaiser and how the socialist Mass legislator walked out when the Kaiser was brought in to address them in Boston circa 1902. German anti-war socialists really set the example in fact for their courageous stand against the militarism of their own country. We all know the story of Karl Leibknecht and Rosa Luxemburg. Obviously the idea that the Allies of Tsarist Russia, imperial Britain and the France of the Dreyfus case represented some fundamental bulwark of liberty against the tyrannical menace of the Central Powers of Germany (a constitutional monarchy like Britain), Austria and the Ottomans was a thoroughgoing fraud that merited, along with its apostles like Wilson, ridicule and contempt. As Walter Millis in his 1935 work Road to War, America 1914-17 lays out, this propaganda hack job was made easier by the British Navy's cutting of the transatlantic cables from Berlin and Vienna in 1914 creating a monopoly on war information on behalf of London and Paris. What I say is that your vision of German history is the vision of the USAmerican bourgeoisie, not that of the international proletariat. And I say that you dress it up as Leftist because you speak in the name of that proletariat. _ Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/tomcod3%40gmail.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Freya von Moltke, Part of a Core of Nazi Resistance, Is Dead at 98
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == That's why the Austrian Empire in this period was known as a prison house of nations? Berlin has given virtually nothing (Hegel is the sole exception) to our cultural and spiritual heritage. No city has given more than Vienna. Shane Mage This cosmos did none of gods or men make, but it always was and is and shall be: an everlasting fire, kindling in measures and going out in measures. Herakleitos of Ephesos Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/tomcod3%40gmail.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Freya von Moltke, Part of a Core of Nazi Resistance, Is Dead at 98
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Or as Dr. Johnson put it at the time, isn't it ironic that the loudest yelps for liberty come from the drivers of slaves There was nothing, NOTHING positive about the change of rule from British to American on the frontier. Of course, by this new standard of moral equivalencies, I suppose the American Revolution was a bad idea and Marx was just a cranky philosopher having a bad hair day ML Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/tomcod3%40gmail.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Freya von Moltke, Part of a Core of Nazi Resistance, Is Dead at 98
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == To sum up my view on this, all sorts of things can be compared by analogy, analogy by definition not being an equality or identity of items; that is analogy is always by definition an imperfect comparison. Thus to say that the Prussian war on France has the same character as the US Civil War or is similar to it in any fundamental sense is an incredible stretch. The point of departure for me is not what the needs of capital or great powers are, but the human aspect. Thus as with the Holocaust in World War II, the issue of human slavery actually was the fundamental human and moral issue of high order that caused this war to be justified and necessary to progressives and people of good will. The needs of capital and great power reasoning, while perhaps interesting and illuminating in an academic sense, are alien ruling class doctrines that should be rejected and certainly aren't my point of departure, although it is of the think tank elite who are always, with genteel equivocations about contradictory realities etc etc.(hey, aren't we nation building in Iraq and Afghanistan?) justifying imperialist adventures on that basis. Thus any equitable similarities between the cause of Prussia and its minions in the 1870 and the US Civil War, a social revolution on a great scale, are very slight. The argument to the contrary is, quite frankly, an insult to the millions of Americans, particularly African-Americans, who fought in this struggle. To listen to Marxists give apologies and justifications for this is very disturbing and foreshadows what socialists did in 1914 and also brings to mind Bakunin's warning that Marx and Marxism is something people need to really watch their backs around, a potential tyrannical menace of the intelligensia who can justify anything with their contempt for morality and their [fascistic] scientific reasoning. Personally, I could care less what the needs of German capitalists were in 1870 or now, beyond understanding the machinations of these creeps. that somehow this impinged slightly on the prospects of the labor aristocracy at the time. . . Hey, tell me a sob story! that's comparable to the plight of the African slaves in the South? Bullshit!! go ahead and have a war over it, but don't expect me to support it. Shouldn't it be telling that actual Hitler was a big advocate of this narrative of 1870, No? No, in 1870 Prussia had more railroad track than all of France according to Wikipedia. It's cause was thus not a compelling one. Thus, as in 1914, neither side-the gravediggers of the Paris Commune-merited support. Thus, sadly, it was actually Bakunin's position that foreshadowed the approach of Lenin and the socialist-and anarchists-in 1914. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] American Revolution and national unity in 1776 and China
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I would have to respestfully disagree with this to some extent as it relates to the overly adulatory narrative of the first American revolution. Clearly, the liberation movements of the 20th Century have every right to appropriate to themselves the progressive legacy of 1776 or the myth thereof. The actual objective truth is somewhat different as what occured then was not really a social revolution, but a political revolution against British rule, unlike what happened in 1861-1870s which was a social revolution on an epochal scale. Moreover, many blacks fought on the side of Britain and were freed as a result,particularly by Lord Dunmore in his 1776 Emancipation Proclamation, while the rebel governor, a certain Jefferson, responded savagely decreeing castration for any such slaves who were captured. Simon Schama's excellent book Crossings,I think itwas gives a good descrition of this side of the story. I also think there are some African-American historians out there who condider your take on this as overly generous and would pick a bone with you over the assertion that it wasn't possible to do away with slavery then. On 1/17/10, waistli...@aol.com waistli...@aol.com wrote: == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == The America Revolution of 1776 was revolutionary, ushering in a whole new epoch of national liberation. Liberation is from whom, if not imperialism as military garrisons, economic and political relations designed to benefit the imperial power and reduce the non-imperial citizens to a status of second class citizenship? The Boston Massacre as a bookmark of the First American Revolution exploded over working men seeking employment and fights over British soldiers receiving preferential hiring. National liberation arises on the basis of the bourgeois property relation. This however does not say enough. The entire historical-social process of national liberation, begun in America, went on for another two hundred years. The Vietnamese Revolution closes out this juncture of history - more than less, with the capture of Saigon in April 1975 and the reunification of their country a year later. The Revolution of 1776 was a new thing in history. Unlike Europe, America was capitalist from its inception. The total destruction of the Native American communal life left no feudal or communal hangovers. There was a large and widespread class of small producers. Most importantly, from time to time, as much as one-quarter of the toilers were slaves. America was a colony, meaning it was owned by England and its purpose was to ship goods and resources back to the mother country. For the first time, a revolution for national liberation - against imperialism, was also bound up with revolution against feudal political restrains. To say that the revolution of 1776 was a national liberation movement or as it is called a democratic revolution or bourgeois democratic revolution is not enough. The American Revolution was an agrarian bourgeois revolution, in which the Slave Oligarchy also had a material interest in liberation from England. It is interesting to note that the paramount leader of the revolution, George Washington was the biggest slave holder and the richest man in America. When the Civil War began - 1861, Jefferson Davis, President of the Confederate states of America was the biggest slave holder and one of the richest men in America. This is interesting to note because the formation of the Confederate States of America, was a reactionary movement for self determination (national liberation), to preserve the political authority of an old ruling class and slavery. Was the American Revolution revolutionary? Yes. Was it progressive? Yes. Was the formation of the CSA revolutionary or progressive? No. National movements need be assessed on their own basis, within the environment they are a part of. The clearest thinking people in 1776 understood that unless the national liberation revolution emancipated the slaves, society would have to fight the revolution out all over again. As the goals of the revolution advanced it became understood that national liberation and the construction of America as a truly impendent and truly free bourgeois democratic state required building the foundation for an industrial bourgeoisie and their assumption of power. This understanding is expressed in the fights at the Constitutional Convention over slavery. To realize revolutionary goals requires more than clear thinking and understanding of
Re: [Marxism] American Revolution and national unity in 1776 and China
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == sorry about the unclipped text. I haven't figured out this darn cellphone yet and its teeny tiny text Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] American Revolution and national unity in 1776 and China
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Yeah, OK, I think I know what you're saying, (although some of it I have a hard time following), that failure to prevail in certain struggles at certain times was due to objective circumstances and not the failures of the progressive camp. Your references to the 30s are well taken as I think we've listened too long to the screeds of liberals, sectarians and neo-cons about Spain, the Popular Front etc, with hardly a word about the crimes of Franco etc., something tied in with a certain moralism, the hypocritical liberal moralism that attacks the alleged atrocities of revolution and oppressed while downplaying or completely obscuring the crimes of the old order and reaction. Thus the cult of Marie Antoinette etc. Trotsky eloquently lambasted all this in Their Morals and Ours. I think you're comments about the First American Revolution are well intentioned, but misguided and innacurate, being rooted in our patriotic indoctrination in this country in this mythology since childhood. Yes, America was a colonial society, but not in the way Third World countries were, even then. Thus India was a true colony, which was exploited pro tanto, while America was a settler colony, like South Africa or Israel. big difference. Nonetheless, there surely was a progressive aspect to this, particularly in the Northern colonies and ideological gains in what was put out, but not as big of a deal as our school book mythology makes it out to be and which understandably some well intentioned people want to appropriate to the movement. Surely, Ho's reference to the Declaration of Independence in 1945 was entirely appropriate. But let's keep in mind he wasn't a French settler colonist either, a mileu that, particularly in Algeria, was entirely behind the motherland as a huge hunk of Americans were in the 1770s. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] American Revolution and national unity in 1776 and China
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Shane, I'm not an expert on ancient history, but its seems I recall the Temple having been destroyed and looted, creating a situation where the holdouts could reasonably believe they would face the worst if they surrendered. They weren't a bunch of crazed cultists living in a fantasy land of a potential fascist pig invasion like the Peoples Temple cult of the 1970s, so I wouldn't call these victims of imperial aggression a gang at all, but victims. Seems like you're buying into the liberal moralism that equates the violence and mistakes of the oppressed with that of the oppressor, the latter being obscured. Trotsky lambasted this Victorian parlor like moral outlook in Their Morals and Ours. Moreover, rightly or wrongly, accepting death rather than surrender was considered by many and has a long tradition, even up to the 20th Century to be the only honorable way out in a situation like that, including as part of the ancient Roman military ethos. One could disagree with Japanese soldiers, but one would never dis them personally as a gang, particularly when it occurred on their own soil, the people at Masada being in a much more desperate situation. No, they weren't proto-Zionist in any sense, Zionists being 19th and 20th Century European settler colonists. The ancient Hebrews were an indiginous nationality that had lived in Palestine for centuries previously. Moreover, keep in mind that history is written by the victors, so as with the Aztecs, the story of what really happened is somewhat lost. We do know, however, that Roman propaganda about the extent of human sacrifices by the Carthaginians, victims of Roman genocide, have not been born out by archeological investigation. Finally, don't you think all this stuff about Viennese music and Josephus' books is somewhat of a bourgois affectation? What does all that have to do with the real world of suffering humanity? After the Commune was suppressed the Versaillais-as their defenders continue to do to this day-whined a lot about the destruction of Adolph Theirs' priceless library and collection of antiquities owned by this fine gentleman of culture. The issues regarding citizen's rights, poverty, hunger etc being of an entirely different and lower order or as Thiers once stated, the Communards were uncultured underclass criminal riff raff who had no rights any civilized person was bound to respect, so killing 20,000 of them in a few days was no big deal, certainly a lesser deal than his priceless books and art work which was the crucible of civilization Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Democracy's Prisoner: new book on Debs Free Speech Case
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == below is a link to a review in the latest California Lawyer magazine article about Debs' free speech case that sent him to prison for making an anti-war speech in 1918. http://www.callawyer.com/story.cfm?pubdt=NaNeid=898030evid=1 Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Bible verses etched into US military rifles
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == A cousin of mine brought this to my attention on Facebook, a story that is now getting more circulation. http://rawstory.com/2010/01/fox-guest-bible-verses-military-weapons/ Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] 1st international
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Yes, but wasn't the IWW an expression of the tendency in the workers movement represented by Bakunin as much or more than it was an embodiment of marxism? In Spain this tendency had hegemony in the workers movement at a certain point with the CNT, an IWW like union, having two million members, representing 50% of the industrial working class. There's an excellent book about this in the form of a biography of Buenaventura Durruti (1896-1936), a Che like figure, who was killed in the Spanish Civil War. This civil war is a class war he stated at press conference in 1936. When he died half a million people attended his funeral in Barcelona. There is an excellent biography, translated from Spanish, Durruti: The People Armed by Abel Paz, which is written in a format and style reminiscent of Deutcher's bio of Trotsky (The Prophet Armed, hey about The People Armed?). http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/spain/durruti.html On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 10:09 AM, Mark Lause markala...@gmail.com wrote: == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == We are in complete agreement as to Proudhon and to Bakunin. IT always struck me that the latter seriously needed a friendly minder of some sort. : - ) Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/tomcod3%40gmail.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] 1st international
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Here's the anarchists response to that as part of a 15 round Ali-Frazier slugfest between moderator and anarcho on these issues. http://www.struggle.ws/anarchism/writers/anarcho/Proyect_reply.html On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 9:33 AM, Louis Proyect l...@panix.com wrote: == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == The bigger mystery for me is why Marx ever decided to develop ties with Bakunin, who is one of the biggest schmucks I have ever encountered in the 19th century radical movement. Here's some more on that: http://www.columbia.edu/~lnp3/mydocs/state_and_revolution/Bakunin.htm Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/tomcod3%40gmail.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] re : 1st International
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Yes, indeed, let's never forget Sacco Vanzetti. On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 12:51 PM, Dan d.koech...@wanadoo.fr wrote: Anarchism is not intellectually bankrupt. It is the ideal out of which grew most labour unions in the 1880s, 1890s and 1900s. The French CGT, the largest union in France, was founded by anarchists. So was the American IWW, and the Argentinian FORA, and the Spanish CNT, and the Italian ISA. Those were/are all mass organizations, numbering MILLIONS of members. As far as the history of the US is concerned, the Chicago martyrs (remember the 1st of May ?) were Anarchists. Sacco and Venzetti were Anarchists. The 8-hour day was an Anarchist proposal (1/3 of the day to sleep, 1/3 to work and 1/3 to enjoy life = 8 hours/24). Actually, as early as the 1900s, Anarchists went further and demanded the 4-hour day. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/tomcod3%40gmail.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] 1st international
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Fair enough, no one I know here is going to disparage worthies like Fred Halstead and Paul Boutelle. Nonetheless, let's recognize that SDS led historic mass struggles like the Columbia Strike of 68 and the Harvard Strike of 69. Personally, I think we or they should have taken a more flexible approach to SDS and intervened within it on some basis like most of the left did without liquidating themselves in the process. Seems I recall the trotskyists doing that in the socialist party in the 30s, not that the YSA should have gone that far which is essentially what PL did. It's refreshing to see that many veterans of this struggle are not reliving that sectarian mode in regards to recent formations like the Green Party etc. On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 2:01 PM, Thomas Bias bia...@embarqmail.com wrote: When I came to college as a 17-year-old boy who had only a year earlier come to the conclusion that the Vietnam war was wrong, I was naturally curious about SDS, especially as some of the students in the dorm with me were members. So I attended a meeting. I swore I would never attend another one. I participated in some of the pickets protesting Marine recruiters on campus and other such events, and I'm glad that I did. I'm not sure how much SDS contributed to organizing them. In spite of myself, I even attended more SDS meetings. Talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk. Finally, I gave up. But I had seen Halstead-Boutelle posters on campus and began reading The Militant, which I did not like at first. After the Fort Jackson acquittal I began to take the SWP more seriously. I started dealing with SDS again after I joined the YSA in the fall of 1969. It was never easy! And, yes, to my untrained, uneducated mind, a lot of what the SDS was advocating was completely ultraleft, though that word was not yet in my vocabulary. Tom Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] MRZine idiocy, installment #376
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Exactly so, knee jerk thinking for sure. Without re-opening a whole can of worms, I felt this attitude was present in analyzing the situation in the Balkans in the 90s: since the muslims accepted aid from the US or sought that meant they were bad and stooges of US imperialism, instead of realizing that from their perspective they can look to whomever is willing to materially aid them in their struggle against those who have historically oppressed them. The classic example of this was the Irish taking aid from Kaiser's Germany in 1916. Thus many of the same jihadis who fought in Bosnia were involved in fighting against US puppet regimes elsewhere in the same period. As an antidote to the formulaic approach of Furuhashi, who seems to have learned her Marxism--such as it is--from two parts Sam Marcy and ninety-eight parts Foucault, here's Leon Trotsky: Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Sartre's crabs
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Yeah, but didn't Sartre embrace Marxism in the 60s? Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Unions and WWI
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Wait a second, didn't French SP leader Jaures oppose the war and get assasinated for it? Ditto for US SP leaders, not only Debs, but central bureaucratic leaders like Morris Hillquit and Victor Berger who was deprived of his seat in the US House as a result? Let's give them their due in this regard. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Jaures http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morris_Hillquit On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 2:50 PM, Dan d.koech...@wanadoo.fr wrote: 1914 was a major defeat, in France, in Germany, in the US, for the concept of industrial (and internationalist) unionism. But at least, they did a better job at opposing the war, on class lines, than did the political parties linked to the 2nd International that all rallied to form a patriotic front and voted for the war. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] FWD: Free Lynn Stewart
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == It's also a case that represents a frontal assault on the attorney-client privilege and the duty of fidelity and zealous representation. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Interview with Rudi Dutschke's Widow
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == 2009 Deutsche Welle interview http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,5031510,00.html Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Interview with Rudi Dutschke's Widow
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Berlin to name street after him: http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,3283764,00.html Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Obama appoints Becker to NLRB
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Yeah, but hey, what do you want the guys from the National Right to Work Committee that Reagan appointed? Surely this guy as a union lawyer is different from the corporate hacks W sent there as well. On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 11:03 AM, brad bauerly bbaue...@gmail.com wrote: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/28/us/politics/28recess.html?ref=todayspaper Actual change? Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] What is the biggest flaw in the labor theory of value
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == My lay person take on it is that the inherent value of a product certainly lies in the labor it took to create it, its moral value so to speak, but to say that that and prices, which obviously reflect its exchange value since that's what someone is willing to pay for it and which can fluctuate wildly are close or nearly close seems idealist. The pet rock of the 70s may have had little in terms of labor invested in it, collecting the items and then packaging them, but the price that someone paid for it was a function of market conditions, subjective and otherwise. This essentially goes towards the main issue which is Sales, a word I think I hardly ever see mentioned by Marx's ostensible epigones. Without consummated sales no value is realized, oranges dumped in groves while people starve as during the depression. Thus, my impression of marxists on economic theory is that they are very weak, seeking to talmudically parse and justify an old prophet and his sacred texts without much interest in empirically rooting themselves in current conditions. Thus we have little from them concretely analyzing and demystifying the current burning economic issues related to mortgages, CDOs etc etc., although their heart is in the right place. Then again politics is not primarily an academic exercise either. On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 7:50 AM, Anthony Boynton anthony.boyn...@gmail.comwrote: == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I have not followed this thread fully, but here are my three cents worth in answer to this question. I don't think there are any 'flaws' in Marx's value theory. However, it has never been fully developed. Historically the biggest glitch has been the transformation problem which is still controversial. Other undeveloped areas of value theory exist however. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] US Manufacturing sector expansion
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == interesting. Word on TV last night (This Week in N. Cal) is that it looks like economic crisis may deepen, although talking heads pray it won't. commercial foreclosure are at an all time high according to this guy with 50% of commercial real estate under water. Moreover, residential mortgages are forecast to take another nose dive as a new crop of fluctuating rate loans move beyond their initial teaser period this year and in 2011. TV expert says don't expect bank failures to abate any time soon. Meanwhile unemployment in many semi-rural counties like mine in CA is approaching 20%. I was thinking the other day that it seems like the redneck lumpen proletariat is the largest social class around here anymore. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] What is the biggest flaw in the labor theory of value?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Yeah, but, bourgois contract law says those intangibles do have value within the meaning of the need for consideration or value for any contract to be valid. imaginary price? The uncultivated land comment is classic and strikes at the heart of something, because Marx or Shmarx, everyone knows land has big value (wasn't there some guy named Henry George?), present economic use value for grazing of livestock and imminent future value for construction and agriculture. With all due respect, like Creation Science, seems like another example of the ridiculous outcomes of idealist thinking that starts backwards from holy ideology to reorganize empirical facts to be congruent with it, instead of proceeding the other way around from concrete reality via scientific method in an open ended inquiry etc. I mean that's not imaginary money people are paying the imaginary price for land that has no value which might as well be free? C'mon. Good question, but it should be directed at the fellow who wrote: Things which in and by themselves are not commodities, such as conscience, honor, etc., can be put up for sale by their owners, and can thus, through their price, acquire the commodity form. Hence a thing can have a price without having value. In that case, the price expression is imaginary, like certain magnitudes used in mathematical calculations. On the other hand, the imaginary price form may sometimes conceal a direct or indirect value relation; for instance, uncultivated land may have a price, though it has no value, since no human labor has been incorporated in it. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/tomcod3%40gmail.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] What is the biggest flaw in the labor theory of value
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == sorry about the non-snip Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] My youtube maiden voyage
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == try getting the audio and video in sync. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] What is the biggest flaw in the labor theory of value
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I'm sorry I thought you were the person who had posted that, which was very enlightening. In any event, my comments weren't intended as a personal attack on you or anyone for that matter, but were general of an observation. Yes, while I don't claim to be an expert on economics, I think my observation that I don't see too many marxists addressing these contemporary issues, to say nothing of in a way that demystifies it for the average worker, was a fair one. On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 9:37 PM, S. Artesian sartes...@earthlink.net wrote: == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == What link are you referring to-- I don't recall posting such a link. I think you're a little confused. In your earlier post you seemed to be criticizing Marxists for being weak on economics and what was actually happening in capitalism today. In this later post you're saying, that you're theone who doesn't understand, and anyway, it's not as important as politics. Do I have that right? I never claimed globalism or globalization was something new-- and I don't think too many Marxists claim that it's new. - Original Message - From: Tom Cod tomc...@gmail.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/tomcod3%40gmail.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] What is the biggest flaw in the labor theory of value?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == brings to mind the old story related by Eskimos about how the fine English gentlemen of the doomed 1840s John Franklin expedition to the Canadian arctic tried to buy food from them with silver eating utensils. Sadly they had insufficient extra food to aid these aliens with precious metals as money being unfamiliar and odd to them. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] What is the biggest flaw in the labor theory of value?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == [I apologize for the long, redacted, quotation that follows] I would respectfully disagree; I'm not sure the mission of this list is as is stated below, rather I think it is broader forum for those who have been involved in radical politics and the Marxist tradition, particularly those of us who have been activists and paid their dues over decades in the trenches of the class struggle to reconnect and discuss pertinent issues (which surely abstruse concepts of theory can be a part). Thus, I would concede that the work of academics and experts, including economists, is important and should not be belittled by churlish anti-intellectualism. We should not, however, become intellectual snobs and elitists either seeking to maintain the purity of our little club. Surely Marx was a great economic theorist, but what differentiated him from Adam Smith or whomever, was not just the different quality of his ideas, but that he was primarily a political activist on behalf of the working class. Thus I see a danger of certain of his ideas being reified by a real or aspiring intellectual elite as their province as high priests. Thus the slogan from the Cultural Revolution Better Red than Expert and Mao's theme in Oppose Book Worship! of the danger of theory becoming the self serving shibboleth of a privileged elite. Yes, Marx was an economist, but he was also a leader of the First International as well. Thus his epitaph, Philosophers have interpreted the world in different ways, the point is to change it. Anarchist, No-Bullshit Marxist, or whatever, the lesson from this tradition, the main precept, is one of class struggle and workers standing up for their own interests and becoming the ruling class of society that will organize the socialist transformation of the world (that the natural tendency in society is towards the dictatorship of the proletariat, Marx once said). We want no condescending saviours! Thank you. On Sun, Apr 4, 2010 at 4:12 PM, Ralph Johansen mdriscol...@charter.netwrote: Marxmail's purpose as I understand it is to explicate and develop what Marx wrote and more importantly to relate this as well as possible to what we've experienced in the past and present, bringing in events as they either raise problems for and call into question, are illustrative of the utility of Marxist perspective, or call for further development of Marx's incomplete theorization of capital. That is not a task for dilettantes, which I call myself unless I am familiarizing myself with Marx's precepts and method; it is nevertheless a task for those who aspire to understand, and it might if more consistently implemented on this list result in a much-reduced quantity of exchange (though I suspect not for long) and a much higher quality. Without that effort, we don't get very far past the current headlines. . . . . . I'm learning that, If what I understand to be the purpose of the Marxmail list is correct, I don't see how people have the temerity to hold forth here unless they as a prerequisite have thoroughly understood or are with due humility in the process of trying to read and understand what Marx wrote, as well as finding the more trenchant objections to his critique of capitalism. Everything short of that largely results in a surfeit of blather, and it dilutes and can destroy a list like this. That's so basic to keeping our thinking caps on straight, or else losing the vitality of discussion. Case in point is what happened several years ago to the old unmoderated Socialist Register list, and what takes place on other lists similar to this, as they atrophy and disappear. I don't think shifting this range of tasks to Levy's invitation-only list, however well it works there or whatever the original intent, is appropriate any longer. As long as the discussion is moderated so as to avoid one-upping and pettifogging. A now-deceased CP friend taught Capital during the 30s Depression in workers' groups and observed that once it was presented clearly to experienced wage workers, whatever their formal education, they got it immediately. . . . . So getting to know and appreciate the dialectical method of Capital is essential to understanding Marx on his own terms. Quite a lot of people, including some Marxists, would disagree. The so-called analytic Marxists - thinkers like G.A. Cohen, John Roemer and Robert Brenner - dismiss dialectics. They actually like to call themselves no-bullshit Marxists. They prefer to convert Marx's argument into a series of analytical propositions. Others convert his argument into a causal model of the world. There is even a positivist way of representing Marx that allows his theory to be tested againsr
Re: [Marxism] Remembering [Political Murders in Dixie]
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Yeah but how did this uneducated simpleton ex-convict wind up in Britain with a forged Canadian passport unless he had aid from others? On Sun, Apr 4, 2010 at 12:00 PM, Joseph Catron jncat...@gmail.com wrote: == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Sun, Apr 4, 2010 at 10:47 AM, Hunter Gray hunterbadb...@hunterbear.orgwrote: Although I tend to be very skeptical of conspiracy stuff,, I have never been able to buy the idea that a lone redneck bigot from Missouri would have the single-minded passion to do that which he did; or, holding such passion, would be able to put together such a complex and intricate scheme by himself. This strikes me as very nearly identical to the implicit assumption in much 9/11 conspiracy theory: that such a plot could not possibly be hatched by a bunch of stupid Arab Muslims, some of whom even live in caves. Your very slight revision to this familiar refrain is problematic in similar ways, and probably wrong for the same reasons. -- Hige sceal þe heardra, heorte þe cenre, mod sceal þe mare, þe ure mægen lytlað. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/tomcod3%40gmail.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] The next Ngo Dinh Diem?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I don't recall Diem ever talking about going over to the VC, but I get your point. I doubt if the US would so stupid as to try to pull a Diem on Karzai. As I recall things took a further decline for the US and its compradors in the wake of that. Ironically I remember watching the Tomorrow Show with Tom Snyder the night after the liberation of Saigon with the guest being none other than Madame Nhu commenting on these events and bemoaning how if only things had gone differently in November 1963 there would not have been this outcome. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] WikiLeaks Video of US attack on Journalists in Iraq
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/06/world/middleeast/06baghdad.html?hp Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
