Re: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
Hello, On 08/04/2002 03:35 PM, Maxim Maletsky wrote: > I feel like you want Zend to develop things for free like they develop > Zend Engine. I think it is right for them selling Zend Encoder and IDE. > Companies still trust these products more than the free packages you > mentioned. Do not forget, PHP is running on Zend. I do not want Zend to develop things for free. I never said that. As a matter of fact I do not want to use Zend commercial products at all, precisely because their pricing is greedy. That is my opinion and so is the opinion of many other PHP users. The problem is not being commercial, the problem is being expensive. I have an brain and use it to make decisions that defend my interests. So it seems that Yahoo people that decided to use Nick Lindrige PHP Accelerator instead of Zend Cache. > There is really a lot of money involved in developments. If, by some > means, I would need to hide a source, I would look at my business model, > and, if I got extra $3.000 budgeted to spend on development I will spend > them for Zend Encoder instead of resorting to Open Source protecting > solutions. Because, the product to protect my intellectual property > would be chosen by the responsibility of its manufacture. Maxim, be serious, you do not have to pay that sort of money to compile programs in other languages, why do you keep forcing the excuse to pay that fortune to Zend? I am sure that many of us are not idiots to pay that fortune to Zend, especially now when have free alternatives. > I think you will agree with me, Open Source is a high quality code, but > its support is not. Open Source is never supported with the > business-level responsibility as Zend would do. Honestly I don't want support from greedy companies like Zend. If you go and examine their pricing you see that they charge for every little thing. The only thing that that don't charge is the Zend Optimizer. But the truth is, if you have complex scripts, if you do not use a cache engine as well, using Zend optimizer makes your scripts run slower because the optimizer itself takes a lot of time to analyse complex scripts and in the end often it does not pay using the optimizer if the results are not cached. Make your benchmarks with complex scripts and you will see what I am talking about. So, the only thing that is "free" from Zend is something that makes you wish even more the cache product that is bloody expensive. It took me some time to realize that. Some day I realized that some users were using mirror scripts that made many requests to a site of mine and I noticed that PHP was consuming an huge ammount of CPU time. I was suggested by a open source cache extension developer that using the optiomizer without a cache makes your PHP scripts hog the CPU. I turned Zend Optimizer off and it turned out to be true. I never used Zend Optimizer again. I use APC cache and the speedup is tremendous although it is said that Nick Lindrige PHP Accelerator is much faster matching Zend Cache performance. > About Zend CEO. I personally have attended a business meeting with Doron > (CEO) and Zeev in Tokyo last year in June. And, I must tell you, we all > had very good impression of them. Of course, when you pay they will treat you nicely. It seems that when you refuse to pay they become unreasonable. > If, Manuel, what they do does not make you happy - that is only your > opinion. Sure, mine and of many others. I also think it is stupid to exclude Acer because he has different opinions than yours. Anyway, do you agree that Zeev is right by boycotting APC people to contribute with they cache extension? If you do, you are just defending their monopoly, and so I do not have nothing else to say to you. > Just remember, that, the future e-business will not consist of software > development, but of its support. And Zend primarely supports PHP. Do you work for Zend? I'm sorry but it surely looks like you do because you are trying are to make them look good. -- Regards, Manuel Lemos -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
Manuel, I feel like you want Zend to develop things for free like they develop Zend Engine. I think it is right for them selling Zend Encoder and IDE. Companies still trust these products more than the free packages you mentioned. Do not forget, PHP is running on Zend. There is really a lot of money involved in developments. If, by some means, I would need to hide a source, I would look at my business model, and, if I got extra $3.000 budgeted to spend on development I will spend them for Zend Encoder instead of resorting to Open Source protecting solutions. Because, the product to protect my intellectual property would be chosen by the responsibility of its manufacture. I think you will agree with me, Open Source is a high quality code, but its support is not. Open Source is never supported with the business-level responsibility as Zend would do. About Zend CEO. I personally have attended a business meeting with Doron (CEO) and Zeev in Tokyo last year in June. And, I must tell you, we all had very good impression of them. If, Manuel, what they do does not make you happy - that is only your opinion. Just remember, that, the future e-business will not consist of software development, but of its support. And Zend primarely supports PHP. Regards, Maxim Maletsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
Hello, On 08/04/2002 11:55 AM, Zeev Suraski wrote: > Just a couple of facts: > > 1. If Zend did not exist, PHP 4 wouldn't have existed, at least not in > any way similar to what PHP 4 looks like today. FYI, with PHP 3, it was > impossible to write accelerators, encoders, debuggers and whatnot. You're assumption is completely wrong because if you guys would never existed or contributed to PHP, somebody else would have done it. You are definetly not the only ones in the universe that could have developed a better PHP engine. PHP already was popular before PHP 4. Chances are that somebody else could have done the same or better then your Zend engine. > There are 3 million PHP based web sites in the world. Only a fragment > of them use accelerators or encoders, and you know something? They're > doing pretty darn well. There are plenty of other uses for PHP than the Web, despite you do not want to promote PHP for that. -- Regards, Manuel Lemos -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
On 08/04/2002 04:08 AM, Justin French wrote: > on 04/08/02 3:55 PM, Acer ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > > >>so fine zend is ripping people off, what's the point? well it has been >>damaging to php is my point. no one knows what php is and no one will pay >>you to do php. why blame zend on this? no matter what rasmus says that 600 >>people have access to the cvs, php is zend and zend is php. > > > I don't believe Zend's charging for commerical extensions to the product has > harmed it in any way. I also don't believe that Zend is ripping people off. Except that Zeev blocked APC people from contributing with their open source cache extension to PHP. Therefore, Zend business practices are harmful PHP development. > You have no way of telling if any competitive product does as good a job, > and furthermore, since the *one product you found* is in beta, then the > argument is totally shallow. It depends. Yahoo was certainly able to decide that Nick's PHP Accelerator was a better solution than Zend Cache. Why can't Nick's PHP Encoder be better than Zend Encoder? > PHP has made a massive indentation into the server-side scripting world in > just a few years, and I get emailed about jobs and contracts ALL THE TIME > that want me to use it. You are missing the point. One thing is living from the applications you develop in PHP, another thing is living from developing in PHP for other people. Some people have better vocation to do the first and would prefer to do it for all their lives, but to market your applications you need to be able to protect your code from pirates and competitors or else you would have no business. > Furthermore, perhaps the reason why you can't get anyone to pay you is (no > insult intended): > > - your poor communication skills > - your lack of any real programming experience > - your lack of experience in the right projects / skills > - you're not looking in the right places > - you're only looking at advertised work, not creating a job You are missing his point and you are being rude to point deficiencies to him that may well be attributed to you. > None of this is Zend's fault, and switching to ASP, or having Zend give away > the encoder will not fix any of this. You make me laugh. I don't think the point is having Zend Encoder for free. The point is being able to protect PHP code for free like you can with other languages. It does not have to be with Zend products. -- Regards, Manuel Lemos -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
Hello, On 08/03/2002 10:49 PM, Justin French wrote: >>Don't get me wrong rasmus, I don't have any problems with you. It's just >>fishy when some guy in the UK was able to put together a php accelerator for >>free and a php encoder for $0.50 a pop while zend is charging several >>thousands. You have to wonder how much work zend is actually putting into >>their products to justify the price. Plus, these guys are the ones building >>php so something is not right. > > > Zend is a commercial company, and has a right to charge for a product. My > guess is that the developers of the Zend engine (PHP) would also make the > best developers of any other product (like an accelerator or encoder) that > is associated with PHP. You're guess is biased. Do you know that Yahho have choosen Nick Lindrige PHP Accelerator cache extension instead of Zend's? > If someone is charging so little for the product (it is Beta, so I wouldn't > use it anyway), then there is a good *chance* that it's a far less superior > product. Excuse me but that is an ignorant criteria. Basically you are saying that quality is proportional to the price. In that case you deserved to be exploited by Zend or whoever charges more from you. > Let me ask you Acer, how much money do you make a week from developing PHP > web applications with the free PHP scripting language? The $2000 doesn't > seem like much in comparison, does it. I think you need to open your horizon and understand that not everybody lives in the same country as you and does not necessarily have the same kind of opportunities to make money. Anyway, I think it is stupid to pay for a PHP compiler when you do not have to pay for compilers in other languages. That is one more reason for some people to drop PHP. That is not my case, I prefer to stick to PHP and contribute for free PHP compilers be made available and everybody knows about them. -- Regards, Manuel Lemos -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
Hello, On 08/03/2002 10:44 PM, Justin French wrote: >>>The people for Zend have to eat to live. >> >>And don't we all? That is the main problem. If we need to pay USD $3,000 >>to be able to compile our PHP programs, doesn't that make not viable for >>most of us to sell our PHP programs as closed source? > > > How much money do you make a week writing PHP scripts? Just remember, Zend > gave you PHP, for free, to use in almost any commercial way you wish. I don't live from writing PHP scripts, that is the problem. I give away many PHP scripts often in the form of ready to use PHP Classes, but besides from that I have plenty of sophisticated code that I am not interested to give away in Open Source because I would be disclosing the know-how that is embedded in it. That is regardless whether I wanted to give or sell the code. I also know many people that would like to protect their PHP code so their ISPs could not peek on it. > My clients cant afford Zend, but when the right client comes along, it'll be > my recommendation without hesitation. That is your problem. Most people I know are like your clients, they can't afford the greedy prices of Zend. I often recommend using APC in MMAP mode that automatically stores compiled files in disk, so you can protect their source code for free. -- Regards, Manuel Lemos -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
Acer, In case you didn't know: Zeev Suraski and Andi Gutmans made PHP4 out of PHP3 (correct the details if you wish). Then, they founded Zend (ZEev aNDi) and run it successfully. Two guys always religiously contribute to PHP. Their role in PHP project is of an IMMENSE (no, words are not enough to describe it) value, and they do it for free. So, as you can see, with or without Zend, PHP would exist. But, I am pretty sure that, without Zend, PHP4 would never make it to the level it is on right now. Zend is, indeed, a company that keeps the commercial balance to the PHP Open Source project. Lots of times, companies ask for customer support and additional libraries/extensions to the PHP programming language. Who was supposed to do that? The 600 developers for free? No, we left Zend doing it, and in exchange, Zend is powering every world's PHP installation up. See, Acer, it works! If, Acer, you really need a PHP job, tell your headhunter that Zend exists, so that ignorant headhunter will trust PHP better. Do you have any idea of the billions of dollars that were made with PHP around the world? I myself run a national-level project for the Italian Government. Weve got dozens of PHP people involved for 2 years which is the duration of the project. You cannot even feel the immensity of PHP. And, ironically, PHP Dev Group still asks for free FTP mirrors. Now, please, poor soul Acer, make us all happy - stop offending this mailing list. Unfortunately, your messages pop-up on our eyes while reading this mailing list hopping to help someone in trouble. Your senseless typing only makes us hate you. Ciao, Maxim Maletsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] > -Original Message- > From: Acer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 5:13 PM > To: Zeev Suraski > Cc: Justin French; php > Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding > > Okay like I said before, Zeev is agreeing with me that php is zend and > zend > is php. However, if zend dropped off the face of the planet, there would > be > programmers to fill that void. > > Again call me a cynic but zend develops php but if you pay them several > thousand then it will run 4 times faster. Wow that's great. So let's not > put that much effort into php and make it run faster if you pay. No > conflict of interest there. > > Wow 3 million sites, that's a lot. How many of those actually get more > then > 1000 visitors? > > > > -Original Message- > From: Zeev Suraski [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: August 4, 2002 10:55 AM > To: Acer > Cc: Justin French; php > Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding > > > Just a couple of facts: > > 1. If Zend did not exist, PHP 4 wouldn't have existed, at least not in > any > way similar to what PHP 4 looks like today. FYI, with PHP 3, it was > impossible to write accelerators, encoders, debuggers and whatnot. > > 2. Zend published its value-add software *2 years* ago, when it was > really > innovative. The fact some of its key products were since copied by the > freeware community doesn't mean that they would have existed in the first > place. > > An opinion: > > Like others pointed out, your assertion that in order to use PHP in a > production environment you HAVE to have an encoder or an accelerator is > ridiculous. If I gave you a set of patches that doubles the speed of PHP, > but offer a commercial product that quadruples it, you'd still be pissed > and say that you HAVE to pay in order to use PHP in a production > environment, wouldn't you? > > And finally, another fact: > > There are 3 million PHP based web sites in the world. Only a fragment of > them use accelerators or encoders, and you know something? They're doing > pretty darn well. > > Zeev > > At 16:45 04/08/2002, Acer wrote: > >Okay let me clarify, I think that if Zend did not exist then php would be > in > >a better position. Why? Because something like php-encoder would of > filled > >the void sooner and everyone would of benefited from encoders and > >accelerators. > > > > > -- > PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
Hello, On 08/03/2002 03:05 PM, Rasmus Lerdorf wrote: > Because it is a silly thread and I shouldn't be replying at all. Others > in the group either have more sense or have given up on answering > php-general questions. I believe the point is that you always be passive when it comes to initiatives that interfere with Zend business. Where were you when Zeev publically boycotted the offer of APC author to integrate his cache extension in PHP? If you can't speak on this, we will know that you are still passively favouring Zend business. > My view on encoders is that they are unnecessary and rather evil. I would > never ever purchase a php-based application that did not come with the php That is your oppinion of course. > source code. If you want to restrict your code somehow, do it through a > license. People who choose to violate that license are the same people This is a joke right? Are you familiar with Richard Stallman? You certainly sound like him? The fact is that when you give the source of a product of your work, not only you are giving the code, but also the know-how that was envolved in the development of that code. Licensing code providing the source means that you are giving the know-how too. Anybody with that source can rebuild a new product with the know how that was learned and you hardly can demonstrate that the licensee only got the know-how because they got the source. So, licensing and giving the source is a ridiculously innefficient solution to protect the product of your work. That is why Zend closed the source of the commercial products that thay sell and you do not seem to have a problem with them today. So why do you object to people intention to protect their PHP scripts source and don't object to have Zend selling closed source products based on PHP? It seems your objections are inconsistent because you are passively admiting that Zend can make money from closed source products but other people can't. > who will hack your encoded scripts anyway. And this way the honest > customers will have the benefit of the code to customize, learn from, In the real world, many customers are not that honest and obviously can cause a great harm to software business that is based on selling products with Open Source. > build on top of. Closed source stuff stifles innovation and I personally > refuse to work on a PHP encoder for this reason. Imagine if I had never > released the source for PHP? We would not be having this discussion > today. That was your decision. It is not fair to impose it to others. The most popular language in the world is Visual Basic. The reason for that is that it made possible for many individuals to develop applications and sell them so they could make a living from that activity. Despite of that, Visual Basic is itself a closed source product. The important point of this is products are successful when they help people to survive from them. Being open or closed source has little to do with the success of software. Opening the source of a programming is a compromise. It may lead to the success of a program or not. See how many Open Source projects are rotten in Sourceforge to realize that it is not making products Open Source that will lead to their automatic success. > I know plenty of people disagree with this view, but there you have it. OTOH there are plenty of people that completely agree. You would have much more to gain to understand both sides instead of pushing for one side only. -- Regards, Manuel Lemos -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
Hello, On 08/03/2002 01:58 PM, Acer wrote: > There is a free php accelerator so I don't know why you would pay for one. > www.php-accelerator.co.uk > > The same guy (Nick) has also just made an encoder. It is in beta testing > right now and there's no windows version yet but that should be coming soon. > I think it's like $0.50 to encode your program which is much more > affordable. > http://www.php-encoder.com You can also use APC cache extension in MMAP mode and when you run each script for the first time it stores the compiled files on disk. From then on you can delete the original sources as they are no longer needed. There is no need to pay for that. I alaways recommend APC to protect the source code to anybody because you do not even have to change any part of source code to use it. APC is available here: http://apc.communityconnect.com/ BCompiler is a new PECL extension that is based on APC and you can download it for free here: http://pear.php.net/package-info.php?pacid=95 So, there is really no need to pay at all. > I think the problem with zend is that they have put up the guise that php is > an opensource project but to actually use it in production you had to pay > several thousands every year for the accelerator and the encoder. It kinda You probably have no idea how right you are! :) Did you know that APC cache extension was developed because Zend wanted to charge a fortune to license Zend Cache to be used in a large cluster, but the company that has the cluster was not willing to pay that much? The funny part is that Zend CEO was so greedy that he refused to make a significant discount. Of course the company with the cluster refused to pay the absurd ammount of money that Zend charged. So, it seems that Zend CEO was so brilliant that challenged them to develop a Cache extension for free, and guess what, they did? hehehehehehehheheh Not only Zend people is greed as they seem so arrogant that they really think nobody can have developed the things they did. They probably think they are gods! Some customers probably believe that so they pay the fabulous fortunes that they charge! Anyway, if it was my company, I would have certainly fired that CEO for challenging somebody to develop a competing product, even more for free. > feels like a bait and switch to me which is why I personally think zend is > bad for php. Just do a search for jobs for asp, cf or jsp. There are a ton > of jobs for these languages and you would be lucky to find one for a php > developer. So zend rakes in the money and does no real marketing with that > money for php is the way I see it. Yes, I completely agree with you. Zend was good for having developed Zend engine but at the same time they cripple further development by not allowing Open Source cache/encoding extensions to be included in PHP. Once APC author publicly offered to integrate APC extension in PHP and the only response that he got was a stupid excuse from Zeev to not do it. > You'll never hear anything from the core php group since they are a tight > click so it's business as usual. Now that Nick has released the free > accelerator and an inexpensive ($0.50 per shot) encoder it might change but > I don't know if it's too late. You are also very right when you claim that other core developers have admited that by passively allowing Zend people to boycott the addition of an Open Source cache extension that can also be used for encoding scripts. Only them can explain the real reasons, but active or passively they are favouring Zend business, thus crippling further PHP development. As for Nick encoder I also agree that is probably too late for him to make money because there are free encoding extensions and like his they are not built-in PHP. Anyway, once Nick told me that he would not mind integrating his cache/encoding extension into PHP if the PHP developers (read Zend people) were not blocking it. He also told me about the interest to develop a PHP to C compiler which is way better than Zend Encoder because that would be really hard, if viable at all to reverse engineer. That would make PHP match other languages offer of real compilers either in protection terms and speed. -- Regards, Manuel Lemos -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
> No we shouldn't criticise a commerical company because I never hear bad > things about Microsoft on here. Read archives :-) Maxim Maletsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
At 18:12 04/08/2002, Acer wrote: >Okay like I said before, Zeev is agreeing with me that php is zend and zend >is php. However, if zend dropped off the face of the planet, there would be >programmers to fill that void. No, I am not. Zend was a key figure in the development of PHP, without which PHP wouldn't have been what it is today. Arguably, PHP would have not existed at all. Today, Zend continues to take a key role in the development of PHP's infrastructure, which is then used by a dozen or so developers who actually develop PHP itself, which in turn is used by those 600 people with CVS accounts that Rasmus mentioned, that help out in the manual, PEAR, and other projects. Will there be someone to replace Andi's work on the engine if he fell off the planet? I hope we don't live to see it for ourselves, because I don't think you would have liked the result. Also, don't put words in my mouth. I'm the first person to say that PHP != Zend, PHP is PHP and Zend is Zend. >Again call me a cynic but zend develops php but if you pay them several >thousand then it will run 4 times faster. Wow that's great. So let's not >put that much effort into php and make it run faster if you pay. No >conflict of interest there. I guess that's why Zend people constantly improved the performance of PHP. >Wow 3 million sites, that's a lot. How many of those actually get more then >1000 visitors? Just one, yours. Poor chap. Zeev -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
Okay like I said before, Zeev is agreeing with me that php is zend and zend is php. However, if zend dropped off the face of the planet, there would be programmers to fill that void. Again call me a cynic but zend develops php but if you pay them several thousand then it will run 4 times faster. Wow that's great. So let's not put that much effort into php and make it run faster if you pay. No conflict of interest there. Wow 3 million sites, that's a lot. How many of those actually get more then 1000 visitors? -Original Message- From: Zeev Suraski [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: August 4, 2002 10:55 AM To: Acer Cc: Justin French; php Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding Just a couple of facts: 1. If Zend did not exist, PHP 4 wouldn't have existed, at least not in any way similar to what PHP 4 looks like today. FYI, with PHP 3, it was impossible to write accelerators, encoders, debuggers and whatnot. 2. Zend published its value-add software *2 years* ago, when it was really innovative. The fact some of its key products were since copied by the freeware community doesn't mean that they would have existed in the first place. An opinion: Like others pointed out, your assertion that in order to use PHP in a production environment you HAVE to have an encoder or an accelerator is ridiculous. If I gave you a set of patches that doubles the speed of PHP, but offer a commercial product that quadruples it, you'd still be pissed and say that you HAVE to pay in order to use PHP in a production environment, wouldn't you? And finally, another fact: There are 3 million PHP based web sites in the world. Only a fragment of them use accelerators or encoders, and you know something? They're doing pretty darn well. Zeev At 16:45 04/08/2002, Acer wrote: >Okay let me clarify, I think that if Zend did not exist then php would be in >a better position. Why? Because something like php-encoder would of filled >the void sooner and everyone would of benefited from encoders and >accelerators. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
Just a couple of facts: 1. If Zend did not exist, PHP 4 wouldn't have existed, at least not in any way similar to what PHP 4 looks like today. FYI, with PHP 3, it was impossible to write accelerators, encoders, debuggers and whatnot. 2. Zend published its value-add software *2 years* ago, when it was really innovative. The fact some of its key products were since copied by the freeware community doesn't mean that they would have existed in the first place. An opinion: Like others pointed out, your assertion that in order to use PHP in a production environment you HAVE to have an encoder or an accelerator is ridiculous. If I gave you a set of patches that doubles the speed of PHP, but offer a commercial product that quadruples it, you'd still be pissed and say that you HAVE to pay in order to use PHP in a production environment, wouldn't you? And finally, another fact: There are 3 million PHP based web sites in the world. Only a fragment of them use accelerators or encoders, and you know something? They're doing pretty darn well. Zeev At 16:45 04/08/2002, Acer wrote: >Okay let me clarify, I think that if Zend did not exist then php would be in >a better position. Why? Because something like php-encoder would of filled >the void sooner and everyone would of benefited from encoders and >accelerators. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
on 04/08/02 11:45 PM, Acer ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > Okay let me clarify, I think that if Zend did not exist then php would be in > a better position. Why? Because something like php-encoder would of filled > the void sooner and everyone would of benefited from encoders and > accelerators. Well, there ya go -- php-encoder is here now, so quit complaining about the price of Zend already. Sheeesh. > So far it really does feel like a bait and switch act since people develop > in php thinking it's opensource and then when it's not performing up to par > someone waves a flag to say "Hey you could give me several thousand dollars > and I'll make it work" PHP works, right out of the box. You don't NEED to have things encoded to make them work, and you don't NEED to have things accelerated -- at least not in 90% of the websites out there. Zend is a commercial company (with some ties to the PHP development team) offering a few commercial extensions to PHP. You have the choice of accepting the offered price, chosing a competitors product, or writing your own. PHP does not force or imply the use of Zend products, or restrict the availability of competing products (like php-encoder). If YOU don't want to use Zend, fine... I don't either. If YOU don't think Zend have a good business model or will sell enough encoders at the "high price", fine. If YOU want to use something else, or even write a competing product, fine... no one is stopping you. What are you actually complaining about? You're on your high-horse about opensource and all that, then you turn around and want to be able to encode your own product (written in PHP) to sell it for profit? Why are YOU allowed to make a profit out of PHP code and related products, but Zend are not? You are a commercial entity, and so are they. They chose to write and sell an encoder, accelerator, and other stuff, just as this other guy has, and you could. For f**k's sake just quit bitching about it to us. > Wow Justin gets a lot of job offers so that means there are a ton of jobs > for php developers. I feel better now. And thanks for reading my mind, > there's like 3 of you on this list. Do you do partys? Yup. I have no idea WTF you're saying here, but it sounds pretty immature, so I'll just say "grow up"... Justin French -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
No we shouldn't criticise a commerical company because I never hear bad things about Microsoft on here. -Original Message- From: David Freeman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: August 4, 2002 3:54 AM To: 'Acer'; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding I know I shouldn't do more to keep this going but I'll make this one, and only, post. > this all started when rasmus had a problem with the "click" > in my original post >From what I read, Rasmus made a correction to your opinion. You are entitled to your opinion, but perhaps you should learn that just because it _is_ your opinion it is neither automatically right nor going to be accepted by anyone else. > and i think i proved that if you are a member of the > php development you better not stray from what the php gods think or else > you will get hanged in public or even banned or ignored. I'm guessing that this is in reference to how you think you've been treated. As far as I can see, you've not been hanged in public, you've not been banned and, unfortunately, you've not been ignored either. I'd also suggest that there's a difference between having a differing opinion and trying to shove it down everyone elses throat. > then i suggested that zend isn't really doing much to > "develop" an encoder or accelerator since one guy has been able to do the same > thing Ummm, I really don't see your point here. Zend is doing what Zend chooses to do. Last I checked it's, largely, a free world and Zend is a commercial entity. They have written their particular tools and, by virtue of the fact that they wrote them they can decide how they want to market them. That they've decided to give part of it away for free (Zend engine in PHP) is their choice. I, for one, am glad they did. That they decided to retain control over another part of it (IDE, Optimiser etc) and sell that is also their choice. The price they set for it is also their choice since they created it in the first place. It is not my place, nor yours for that matter, to criticise Zend for what they may or may not do in the commercial market place. Why _should_ Zend do anything in particular to "develop" a php market? So you can get a job programming in PHP? Why is that their problem? > and rasmus is like of course not silly if microsoft sold their products > for what they cost it would be $0.02. I'm not even sure what your point is here... > so fine zend is ripping people off, what's the point? Are they? Were you forced to buy something from Zend? Was I? It's your free choice to spend money with Zend. If you don't then they haven't ripped you off. If you do, one presumes that you have because you see value in doing so. If _NOBODY_ purchases product from Zend then they are free to go broke or review their pricing - that's a commercial reality. > it has been damaging to php is my point. Really? Why is Zend to blame for this 'damage' to PHP? Because they aren't spending money advertising it? How do you know they aren't? I'd expect that Zend, like every other commercial entity, has an advertising budget. I'd expect that they spend money advertising themselves and their products. Are they also expected to spend money promoting php itself? Why? > no one knows what php is and no one will pay you to do php. Really? I've been paid to do php for clients. You point, I believe, was about number of job listings. I've honestly not looked - and I'm not in your part of the world anyway. Consider that a lack of job listings does not necessarily equate to a lack of paid work. Consider that a good many people earn money programming in PHP. Or are you bitter because you feel that you've wasted time learning to program in PHP and now can't get a job? If so, I can only suggest that you get more skills - the more multi-skilled you are the better your chances of employment. Either that or you could apply for jobs that want, for example, ASP and then sell them on the idea of doing the stuff in php instead. Isn't it your 'duty' to do this? If you don't aren't you just 'damaging' php? > no matter what rasmus says that 600 people have access to the > cvs, php is zend and zend is php. I neither claim to be an expert on php nor zend but it was my understanding that zend has contributed a reasonably significant key component of PHP. Even so, they are not the only source of php development. Many people contribute. Each of those people have some say in what happens. > after that is when all the little minions started acting > tough so that the cool kids would like them better. Ummm, ok, whatever... > here's the original post that i made, maybe pe
RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
Okay let me clarify, I think that if Zend did not exist then php would be in a better position. Why? Because something like php-encoder would of filled the void sooner and everyone would of benefited from encoders and accelerators. So far it really does feel like a bait and switch act since people develop in php thinking it's opensource and then when it's not performing up to par someone waves a flag to say "Hey you could give me several thousand dollars and I'll make it work" Wow Justin gets a lot of job offers so that means there are a ton of jobs for php developers. I feel better now. And thanks for reading my mind, there's like 3 of you on this list. Do you do partys? -Original Message- From: Justin French [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: August 4, 2002 3:09 AM To: Acer; php Subject: Re: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding on 04/08/02 3:55 PM, Acer ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > so fine zend is ripping people off, what's the point? well it has been > damaging to php is my point. no one knows what php is and no one will pay > you to do php. why blame zend on this? no matter what rasmus says that 600 > people have access to the cvs, php is zend and zend is php. I don't believe Zend's charging for commerical extensions to the product has harmed it in any way. I also don't believe that Zend is ripping people off. You have no way of telling if any competitive product does as good a job, and furthermore, since the *one product you found* is in beta, then the argument is totally shallow. Zend is a commercial company, and has the right to charge what *they* perceive as market value for a product. You have the choice not to buy it, and you have the choice not to use PHP at all. There is no way you can blame Zend products for the fact you can't get a PHP job. I really laughed at this. The primary scripting languages asked for by job ads in my area are primarily ASP and Java. So what? Java is a well-established language, which has been around for ages. ASP (and other microsoft technologies) are backed by the biggest software company in the world. PHP has made a massive indentation into the server-side scripting world in just a few years, and I get emailed about jobs and contracts ALL THE TIME that want me to use it. Furthermore, perhaps the reason why you can't get anyone to pay you is (no insult intended): - your poor communication skills - your lack of any real programming experience - your lack of experience in the right projects / skills - you're not looking in the right places - you're only looking at advertised work, not creating a job None of this is Zend's fault, and switching to ASP, or having Zend give away the encoder will not fix any of this. You make me laugh. I'm getting plenty of work. Justin French -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
First I don't know who Nick is, never meet him and just stumbled onto his
project. He created phpa (http://www.php-accelerator.co.uk) and is used by
yahoo. He has built the encoder (http://www.php-encoder.com) from his
experience in phpa so it being in beta or not is up to you to evaluate.
Now a correction. The minimum is $0.50 to encode. Obviously it wouldn't
make sense to encode per file since you could just put all your scripts in
one file so the encoding is based on the complete source size. As an
example (this is on his site), all of squirrelmail would of cost $25 to
encode and then you could sell as many times you want.
Now why would you encode? Rasmus thinks it's evil but I'm sure some of us
have been stiffed on projects. So it's a good protection since it allows
you to put into your program a check that the domain name is registered for
use by you. Something like:
if (domain_name is in my database_registration)
{
let them use the admin page
}
else
{
they get locked out
}
You can obviously add that into your programs now but by encoding your
program then no one can hunt it down in your source and erase it since it's
encoded. This is why I don't think encoders are evil (be it zend or
php-encoder) and just because you encode your project doesn't mean people
won't share their knowledge.
-Original Message-
From: Jason Wong [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: August 4, 2002 5:19 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
On Sunday 04 August 2002 15:53, David Freeman wrote:
> > Now that Nick has released the free
> > accelerator and an inexpensive ($0.50 per shot) encoder it
> > might change but I don't know if it's too late.
>
> Great for Nick (whoever he is). $0.50 isn't necessarily cheap though.
> I have one of my own web sites with about 50 php pages on it. That
> would be $250 to encode just one website. Ten similar web sites and
> you're talking $2500. That's getting up towards what Zend charges isn't
> it?
$0.50 x 50 = $25.00
--
Jason Wong -> Gremlins Associates -> www.gremlins.com.hk
Open Source Software Systems Integrators
* Web Design & Hosting * Internet & Intranet Applications Development *
/*
To err is human; to forgive is simply not our policy.
-- MIT Assasination Club
*/
--
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
--
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RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
On Sun, 4 Aug 2002, Acer wrote: > Acknowledging the problem is the first step in recovery. *plonk* -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
'Just wanted to make a few comments... I got my job because of PHP. All of my company's projects were coded in PHP. (Old ones that were not are soon to be converted.) Zend? I convinced my boss to buy the encoder--I didn't have to pay for it... Thanks! Thanks to Zend! Thanks to the PHP community! Thanks to those who made the manual! Thanks to the (over) 600 as well! Thanks to the mailing lists, etc! - E - $B85$N%a%C%;!<%8(B ----- $BAw?.(B : RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding I know I shouldn't do more to keep this going but I'll make this one, and only, post. > this all started when rasmus had a problem with the "click" > in my original post >From what I read, Rasmus made a correction to your opinion. You are entitled to your opinion, but perhaps you should learn that just because it _is_ your opinion it is neither automatically right nor going to be accepted by anyone else. > and i think i proved that if you are a member of the > php development you better not stray from what the php gods think or else > you will get hanged in public or even banned or ignored. I'm guessing that this is in reference to how you think you've been treated. As far as I can see, you've not been hanged in public, you've not been banned and, unfortunately, you've not been ignored either. I'd also suggest that there's a difference between having a differing opinion and trying to shove it down everyone elses throat. > then i suggested that zend isn't really doing much to > "develop" an encoder or accelerator since one guy has been able to do the same > thing Ummm, I really don't see your point here. Zend is doing what Zend chooses to do. Last I checked it's, largely, a free world and Zend is a commercial entity. They have written their particular tools and, by virtue of the fact that they wrote them they can decide how they want to market them. That they've decided to give part of it away for free (Zend engine in PHP) is their choice. I, for one, am glad they did. That they decided to retain control over another part of it (IDE, Optimiser etc) and sell that is also their choice. The price they set for it is also their choice since they created it in the first place. It is not my place, nor yours for that matter, to criticise Zend for what they may or may not do in the commercial market place. Why _should_ Zend do anything in particular to "develop" a php market? So you can get a job programming in PHP? Why is that their problem? > and rasmus is like of course not silly if microsoft sold their products > for what they cost it would be $0.02. I'm not even sure what your point is here... > so fine zend is ripping people off, what's the point? Are they? Were you forced to buy something from Zend? Was I? It's your free choice to spend money with Zend. If you don't then they haven't ripped you off. If you do, one presumes that you have because you see value in doing so. If _NOBODY_ purchases product from Zend then they are free to go broke or review their pricing - that's a commercial reality. > it has been damaging to php is my point. Really? Why is Zend to blame for this 'damage' to PHP? Because they aren't spending money advertising it? How do you know they aren't? I'd expect that Zend, like every other commercial entity, has an advertising budget. I'd expect that they spend money advertising themselves and their products. Are they also expected to spend money promoting php itself? Why? > no one knows what php is and no one will pay you to do php. Really? I've been paid to do php for clients. You point, I believe, was about number of job listings. I've honestly not looked - and I'm not in your part of the world anyway. Consider that a lack of job listings does not necessarily equate to a lack of paid work. Consider that a good many people earn money programming in PHP. Or are you bitter because you feel that you've wasted time learning to program in PHP and now can't get a job? If so, I can only suggest that you get more skills - the more multi-skilled you are the better your chances of employment. Either that or you could apply for jobs that want, for example, ASP and then sell them on the idea of doing the stuff in php instead. Isn't it your 'duty' to do this? If you don't aren't you just 'damaging' php? > no matter what rasmus says that 600 people have access to the > cvs, php is zend and zend is php. I neither claim to be an expert on php nor zend but it was my understanding that zend has contributed a reasonably significant key component of PHP. Even so, they are not the only source of php development. Many people contribute. Each of those people have some say in what hap
Re: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
On Sunday 04 August 2002 15:53, David Freeman wrote: > > Now that Nick has released the free > > accelerator and an inexpensive ($0.50 per shot) encoder it > > might change but I don't know if it's too late. > > Great for Nick (whoever he is). $0.50 isn't necessarily cheap though. > I have one of my own web sites with about 50 php pages on it. That > would be $250 to encode just one website. Ten similar web sites and > you're talking $2500. That's getting up towards what Zend charges isn't > it? $0.50 x 50 = $25.00 -- Jason Wong -> Gremlins Associates -> www.gremlins.com.hk Open Source Software Systems Integrators * Web Design & Hosting * Internet & Intranet Applications Development * /* To err is human; to forgive is simply not our policy. -- MIT Assasination Club */ -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
I know I shouldn't do more to keep this going but I'll make this one, and only, post. > this all started when rasmus had a problem with the "click" > in my original post >From what I read, Rasmus made a correction to your opinion. You are entitled to your opinion, but perhaps you should learn that just because it _is_ your opinion it is neither automatically right nor going to be accepted by anyone else. > and i think i proved that if you are a member of the > php development you better not stray from what the php gods think or else > you will get hanged in public or even banned or ignored. I'm guessing that this is in reference to how you think you've been treated. As far as I can see, you've not been hanged in public, you've not been banned and, unfortunately, you've not been ignored either. I'd also suggest that there's a difference between having a differing opinion and trying to shove it down everyone elses throat. > then i suggested that zend isn't really doing much to > "develop" an encoder or accelerator since one guy has been able to do the same > thing Ummm, I really don't see your point here. Zend is doing what Zend chooses to do. Last I checked it's, largely, a free world and Zend is a commercial entity. They have written their particular tools and, by virtue of the fact that they wrote them they can decide how they want to market them. That they've decided to give part of it away for free (Zend engine in PHP) is their choice. I, for one, am glad they did. That they decided to retain control over another part of it (IDE, Optimiser etc) and sell that is also their choice. The price they set for it is also their choice since they created it in the first place. It is not my place, nor yours for that matter, to criticise Zend for what they may or may not do in the commercial market place. Why _should_ Zend do anything in particular to "develop" a php market? So you can get a job programming in PHP? Why is that their problem? > and rasmus is like of course not silly if microsoft sold their products > for what they cost it would be $0.02. I'm not even sure what your point is here... > so fine zend is ripping people off, what's the point? Are they? Were you forced to buy something from Zend? Was I? It's your free choice to spend money with Zend. If you don't then they haven't ripped you off. If you do, one presumes that you have because you see value in doing so. If _NOBODY_ purchases product from Zend then they are free to go broke or review their pricing - that's a commercial reality. > it has been damaging to php is my point. Really? Why is Zend to blame for this 'damage' to PHP? Because they aren't spending money advertising it? How do you know they aren't? I'd expect that Zend, like every other commercial entity, has an advertising budget. I'd expect that they spend money advertising themselves and their products. Are they also expected to spend money promoting php itself? Why? > no one knows what php is and no one will pay you to do php. Really? I've been paid to do php for clients. You point, I believe, was about number of job listings. I've honestly not looked - and I'm not in your part of the world anyway. Consider that a lack of job listings does not necessarily equate to a lack of paid work. Consider that a good many people earn money programming in PHP. Or are you bitter because you feel that you've wasted time learning to program in PHP and now can't get a job? If so, I can only suggest that you get more skills - the more multi-skilled you are the better your chances of employment. Either that or you could apply for jobs that want, for example, ASP and then sell them on the idea of doing the stuff in php instead. Isn't it your 'duty' to do this? If you don't aren't you just 'damaging' php? > no matter what rasmus says that 600 people have access to the > cvs, php is zend and zend is php. I neither claim to be an expert on php nor zend but it was my understanding that zend has contributed a reasonably significant key component of PHP. Even so, they are not the only source of php development. Many people contribute. Each of those people have some say in what happens. > after that is when all the little minions started acting > tough so that the cool kids would like them better. Ummm, ok, whatever... > here's the original post that i made, maybe people should reread it: > --- > There is a free php accelerator so I don't know why you > would pay for one. > www.php-accelerator.co.uk OK, so don't pay for one. I don't see anyone forcing you to pay for one. It's your choice. > The same guy (Nick) has also just made an encoder. It is in > beta testing > right now and there's no windows version yet but that should > be coming soon. > I think it's like $0.50 to encode your program which is much more > affordable. > http://www.php-encoder.com OK, that's cool. Good for Nick. > I think the p
Re: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
on 04/08/02 3:55 PM, Acer ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > so fine zend is ripping people off, what's the point? well it has been > damaging to php is my point. no one knows what php is and no one will pay > you to do php. why blame zend on this? no matter what rasmus says that 600 > people have access to the cvs, php is zend and zend is php. I don't believe Zend's charging for commerical extensions to the product has harmed it in any way. I also don't believe that Zend is ripping people off. You have no way of telling if any competitive product does as good a job, and furthermore, since the *one product you found* is in beta, then the argument is totally shallow. Zend is a commercial company, and has the right to charge what *they* perceive as market value for a product. You have the choice not to buy it, and you have the choice not to use PHP at all. There is no way you can blame Zend products for the fact you can't get a PHP job. I really laughed at this. The primary scripting languages asked for by job ads in my area are primarily ASP and Java. So what? Java is a well-established language, which has been around for ages. ASP (and other microsoft technologies) are backed by the biggest software company in the world. PHP has made a massive indentation into the server-side scripting world in just a few years, and I get emailed about jobs and contracts ALL THE TIME that want me to use it. Furthermore, perhaps the reason why you can't get anyone to pay you is (no insult intended): - your poor communication skills - your lack of any real programming experience - your lack of experience in the right projects / skills - you're not looking in the right places - you're only looking at advertised work, not creating a job None of this is Zend's fault, and switching to ASP, or having Zend give away the encoder will not fix any of this. You make me laugh. I'm getting plenty of work. Justin French -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
Acknowledging the problem is the first step in recovery. -Original Message- From: Michael Geier [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: August 4, 2002 2:22 AM To: Acer Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding Acer, Did you ever consider the fact that ASP, JSP and CF jobs are advertised more because their developers actually advertise? When was the last time you saw a commerical on TV for PHP? And yet, due to PHP's extensive development and interoperability, it is one of the highest installed packages on web servers? PHB's see the word 'FREE' and think 'bd' (obvious sheep reference) because that is what the Gates' and Ellison's have taught them to believe. Companies like MS and Oracle advertise during the Super Bowl and purchase news sites to tell you what they think you should know. Do they make a superior product because they advertise? Or just one that has a prettier ribbon on it? Blaming the PHP developers (commercial and otherwise) because you cannot get a job as a PHP developer is like blaming Schwinn because you can't get a job as a bike messenger. .m Quoting Acer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > Okay fine whatever. Let's just continue sticking our heads in the > sand and > pretend php developers isn't last on the list of jobs available > compared to > asp, jsp and cf developers. > > That topic isn't important so back to normal and I'll ask a php > question. > What's the difference between = and ==? I'm too lazy to read the > manual. > > > -Original Message- > From: Maxim Maletsky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: August 3, 2002 7:42 PM > To: 'Acer'; 'Rasmus Lerdorf' > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding > > > Acer, what the fk are you mumbling about? > > (sorry for mine to you introduction) > > 600 people at PHP Dev Group (and I am one of them too) create and > document PHP Programming Language for free, because they like it > this > way. > > You, get your boss's money, buy a Zend's encoder, make a script > that, > perhaps, has an equivalent freely available on sourseforge.net, > encode > it and stick a it price to then sell the "cat in a lot" to those > paranoids who do not trust open source projects like your own boss > does. > > The "paranoids" then make services we all here pay, and on our > spare > time - we keep developing the free code for you (always, because we > like > it this way). > > What are you trying to prove by being devil's lawyer here? > > We all know how e-business works, most of us are actually on > managing > positions if not job consultants. > > So, Acer, from now on - ask a php-general question or answer one. > Deal? > > > Sincerely, > > Maxim Maletsky > > PHP Beginner > www.phpbeginner.com > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Acer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 12:01 AM > > To: Rasmus Lerdorf > > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding > > > > Okay so you support zend but hate encoders. Doesn't zend make > an > encoder? > > To me an encoder is used to sell your product. It doesn't mean > people > > still > > won't release their code to add to the public knowledge. > > > > If you didn't release your code rasmus then those 600 people > won't > have > > made > > php what it is now so you can't have it both ways. > > > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Rasmus Lerdorf [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Sent: August 3, 2002 2:06 PM > > To: Acer > > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding > > > > > > Because it is a silly thread and I shouldn't be replying at > all. > Others > > in the group either have more sense or have given up on > answering > > php-general questions. > > > > My view on encoders is that they are unnecessary and rather evil. > I > would > > never ever purchase a php-based application that did not come > with the > php > > source code. If you want to restrict your code somehow, do it > through > a > > license. People who choose to violate that license are the > same > people > > who will hack your encoded scripts anyway. And this way the > honest > > customers will have the benefit of the code to customize, learn > from, > > build on top of. Closed source stuff stifles innovation and I > personally > > refuse to work on a PHP encoder for this reason. Imagine
RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
Acer, Did you ever consider the fact that ASP, JSP and CF jobs are advertised more because their developers actually advertise? When was the last time you saw a commerical on TV for PHP? And yet, due to PHP's extensive development and interoperability, it is one of the highest installed packages on web servers? PHB's see the word 'FREE' and think 'bd' (obvious sheep reference) because that is what the Gates' and Ellison's have taught them to believe. Companies like MS and Oracle advertise during the Super Bowl and purchase news sites to tell you what they think you should know. Do they make a superior product because they advertise? Or just one that has a prettier ribbon on it? Blaming the PHP developers (commercial and otherwise) because you cannot get a job as a PHP developer is like blaming Schwinn because you can't get a job as a bike messenger. .m Quoting Acer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > Okay fine whatever. Let's just continue sticking our heads in the > sand and > pretend php developers isn't last on the list of jobs available > compared to > asp, jsp and cf developers. > > That topic isn't important so back to normal and I'll ask a php > question. > What's the difference between = and ==? I'm too lazy to read the > manual. > > > -Original Message- > From: Maxim Maletsky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: August 3, 2002 7:42 PM > To: 'Acer'; 'Rasmus Lerdorf' > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding > > > Acer, what the fk are you mumbling about? > > (sorry for mine to you introduction) > > 600 people at PHP Dev Group (and I am one of them too) create and > document PHP Programming Language for free, because they like it > this > way. > > You, get your boss's money, buy a Zend's encoder, make a script > that, > perhaps, has an equivalent freely available on sourseforge.net, > encode > it and stick a it price to then sell the "cat in a lot" to those > paranoids who do not trust open source projects like your own boss > does. > > The "paranoids" then make services we all here pay, and on our > spare > time - we keep developing the free code for you (always, because we > like > it this way). > > What are you trying to prove by being devil's lawyer here? > > We all know how e-business works, most of us are actually on > managing > positions if not job consultants. > > So, Acer, from now on - ask a php-general question or answer one. > Deal? > > > Sincerely, > > Maxim Maletsky > > PHP Beginner > www.phpbeginner.com > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Acer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 12:01 AM > > To: Rasmus Lerdorf > > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding > > > > Okay so you support zend but hate encoders. Doesn't zend make > an > encoder? > > To me an encoder is used to sell your product. It doesn't mean > people > > still > > won't release their code to add to the public knowledge. > > > > If you didn't release your code rasmus then those 600 people > won't > have > > made > > php what it is now so you can't have it both ways. > > > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Rasmus Lerdorf [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Sent: August 3, 2002 2:06 PM > > To: Acer > > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding > > > > > > Because it is a silly thread and I shouldn't be replying at > all. > Others > > in the group either have more sense or have given up on > answering > > php-general questions. > > > > My view on encoders is that they are unnecessary and rather evil. > I > would > > never ever purchase a php-based application that did not come > with the > php > > source code. If you want to restrict your code somehow, do it > through > a > > license. People who choose to violate that license are the > same > people > > who will hack your encoded scripts anyway. And this way the > honest > > customers will have the benefit of the code to customize, learn > from, > > build on top of. Closed source stuff stifles innovation and I > personally > > refuse to work on a PHP encoder for this reason. Imagine if I > had > never > > released the source for PHP? We would not be having this > discussion > > today. > > > > I know plenty of people disagree with this v
RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
this all started when rasmus had a problem with the "click" in my original post and i think i proved that if you are a member of the php development you better not stray from what the php gods think or else you will get hanged in public or even banned or ignored. then i suggested that zend isn't really doing much to "develop" an encoder or accelerator since one guy has been able to do the same thing and rasmus is like of course not silly if microsoft sold their products for what they cost it would be $0.02. so fine zend is ripping people off, what's the point? well it has been damaging to php is my point. no one knows what php is and no one will pay you to do php. why blame zend on this? no matter what rasmus says that 600 people have access to the cvs, php is zend and zend is php. after that is when all the little minions started acting tough so that the cool kids would like them better. here's the original post that i made, maybe people should reread it: --- There is a free php accelerator so I don't know why you would pay for one. www.php-accelerator.co.uk The same guy (Nick) has also just made an encoder. It is in beta testing right now and there's no windows version yet but that should be coming soon. I think it's like $0.50 to encode your program which is much more affordable. http://www.php-encoder.com I think the problem with zend is that they have put up the guise that php is an opensource project but to actually use it in production you had to pay several thousands every year for the accelerator and the encoder. It kinda feels like a bait and switch to me which is why I personally think zend is bad for php. Just do a search for jobs for asp, cf or jsp. There are a ton of jobs for these languages and you would be lucky to find one for a php developer. So zend rakes in the money and does no real marketing with that money for php is the way I see it. You'll never hear anything from the core php group since they are a tight click so it's business as usual. Now that Nick has released the free accelerator and an inexpensive ($0.50 per shot) encoder it might change but I don't know if it's too late. -Original Message- From: Maxim Maletsky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: August 4, 2002 1:26 AM To: 'Acer'; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding It hurts no one. Believe me. Do what. Download PHP package and put it on sale. We'll let you do that by our license. Actually, yeah, here I go - YOU CAN DO IT RIGHT NOW. 600 people worked hard on PHP for over several years and thousands of servers do us the real-life test. Just sell it. Will we get hurt? Ufff whata pain Maxim Maletsky > -Original Message- > From: Acer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 7:06 AM > To: César Aracena; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding > > the truth hurts sometimes. > > this was dropped a long time ago but you people keep bringing it up and > giving your 2 cents. thanks cesar, you can read my mind. > > > > -Original Message----- > From: César Aracena [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: August 4, 2002 12:59 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding > > > I am pretty new to PHP, but not to computing since I've been working > with them for about 15 years and I would like to say something about > this idiotic spamming subject. > > It's your problem if you get short on cash for buying something you > could have done by yourself which, by the way, is the beauty of open > source. > > Now, to cut the crap here, which OS do you use at work or even worse, at > home? Have you ever bought a computer that comes with any version of MS > Windows preinstalled? If you think that buying any kind commercial > product while having the chance to get the same benefits from an open > source piece is the right way to go, then do it. If not, just > unsubscribe yourself from Zend's newsletter and don't ever visit their > home site. By the way, how much did you pay for the last MS Windows you > bought? Or do you use copies? Uhmmm... that's not nice. > > I have more than 10.000 e-mails stored in my PHP-General folder which > are all (or most of them) dedicated to help solving PHP issues for us > newcomers (by the way, thanks to all). Ok, so maybe some of them are > about other things such MySQL or HTML, but hey... it's not easy for > everybody to find the right place to ask for help. > > So, to keep it short, please stop messing with other people's ideas > about how the silicon world should work and start making your own ones. > You sound like a very smart person. It's really a shame that not a > single person from this list will ever give
RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
It hurts no one. Believe me. Do what. Download PHP package and put it on sale. We'll let you do that by our license. Actually, yeah, here I go - YOU CAN DO IT RIGHT NOW. 600 people worked hard on PHP for over several years and thousands of servers do us the real-life test. Just sell it. Will we get hurt? Ufff whata pain Maxim Maletsky > -Original Message- > From: Acer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 7:06 AM > To: César Aracena; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding > > the truth hurts sometimes. > > this was dropped a long time ago but you people keep bringing it up and > giving your 2 cents. thanks cesar, you can read my mind. > > > > -Original Message- > From: César Aracena [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: August 4, 2002 12:59 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding > > > I am pretty new to PHP, but not to computing since I've been working > with them for about 15 years and I would like to say something about > this idiotic spamming subject. > > It's your problem if you get short on cash for buying something you > could have done by yourself which, by the way, is the beauty of open > source. > > Now, to cut the crap here, which OS do you use at work or even worse, at > home? Have you ever bought a computer that comes with any version of MS > Windows preinstalled? If you think that buying any kind commercial > product while having the chance to get the same benefits from an open > source piece is the right way to go, then do it. If not, just > unsubscribe yourself from Zend's newsletter and don't ever visit their > home site. By the way, how much did you pay for the last MS Windows you > bought? Or do you use copies? Uhmmm... that's not nice. > > I have more than 10.000 e-mails stored in my PHP-General folder which > are all (or most of them) dedicated to help solving PHP issues for us > newcomers (by the way, thanks to all). Ok, so maybe some of them are > about other things such MySQL or HTML, but hey... it's not easy for > everybody to find the right place to ask for help. > > So, to keep it short, please stop messing with other people's ideas > about how the silicon world should work and start making your own ones. > You sound like a very smart person. It's really a shame that not a > single person from this list will ever give you a job but hey... that > was your own decision. > > Good luck in your life you poor, poor soul. > > > -Original Message----- > > From: Acer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 1:20 AM > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Justin French'; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; php- > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding > > > > i did drop it and then a whole bunch of you late comers piled in again > so > > why don't you give it up. > > > > BTW did i mention the core php group are a click? i'm sure all of > them > > are > > busily emailing each other saying "oh what a jerk, we are doing a > great > > job, > > don't listen to that guy, you guys are the best! keep up the good > work!" > > > > > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Maxim Maletsky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Sent: August 4, 2002 12:22 AM > > To: 'Acer'; 'Justin French'; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding > > > > > > Acer, I can, we all can, but this is OFF-TOPIC. > > > > You are insisting on your ideas on this mailing list. We DO disagree > > with you, yet, we PREFER to drop this thread off THIS list. > > > > Please start looking for a right place and right people and tell them > > what you think about Zend, PHP, ASP and JSP. > > > > This mailing list discusses general php problems. Zend's pricing is > not > > our problem. > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > Maxim Maletsky > > > > PHP Beginner > > www.phpbeginner.com > > > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: Acer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 5:57 AM > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Justin French'; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; php- > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding > > > > > > if you can't debate the issues then get out. > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message- > > > From: Maxim Maletsky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > >
RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
the truth hurts sometimes. this was dropped a long time ago but you people keep bringing it up and giving your 2 cents. thanks cesar, you can read my mind. -Original Message- From: César Aracena [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: August 4, 2002 12:59 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding I am pretty new to PHP, but not to computing since I've been working with them for about 15 years and I would like to say something about this idiotic spamming subject. It's your problem if you get short on cash for buying something you could have done by yourself which, by the way, is the beauty of open source. Now, to cut the crap here, which OS do you use at work or even worse, at home? Have you ever bought a computer that comes with any version of MS Windows preinstalled? If you think that buying any kind commercial product while having the chance to get the same benefits from an open source piece is the right way to go, then do it. If not, just unsubscribe yourself from Zend's newsletter and don't ever visit their home site. By the way, how much did you pay for the last MS Windows you bought? Or do you use copies? Uhmmm... that's not nice. I have more than 10.000 e-mails stored in my PHP-General folder which are all (or most of them) dedicated to help solving PHP issues for us newcomers (by the way, thanks to all). Ok, so maybe some of them are about other things such MySQL or HTML, but hey... it's not easy for everybody to find the right place to ask for help. So, to keep it short, please stop messing with other people's ideas about how the silicon world should work and start making your own ones. You sound like a very smart person. It's really a shame that not a single person from this list will ever give you a job but hey... that was your own decision. Good luck in your life you poor, poor soul. > -Original Message- > From: Acer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 1:20 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Justin French'; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; php- > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding > > i did drop it and then a whole bunch of you late comers piled in again so > why don't you give it up. > > BTW did i mention the core php group are a click? i'm sure all of them > are > busily emailing each other saying "oh what a jerk, we are doing a great > job, > don't listen to that guy, you guys are the best! keep up the good work!" > > > > -Original Message- > From: Maxim Maletsky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: August 4, 2002 12:22 AM > To: 'Acer'; 'Justin French'; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding > > > Acer, I can, we all can, but this is OFF-TOPIC. > > You are insisting on your ideas on this mailing list. We DO disagree > with you, yet, we PREFER to drop this thread off THIS list. > > Please start looking for a right place and right people and tell them > what you think about Zend, PHP, ASP and JSP. > > This mailing list discusses general php problems. Zend's pricing is not > our problem. > > > Sincerely, > > Maxim Maletsky > > PHP Beginner > www.phpbeginner.com > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Acer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 5:57 AM > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Justin French'; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; php- > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding > > > > if you can't debate the issues then get out. > > > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Maxim Maletsky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Sent: August 4, 2002 12:00 AM > > To: 'Acer'; 'Justin French'; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding > > > > > > Acer, > > > > Give it up. We are tired of you. > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > Maxim Maletsky > > > > PHP Beginner > > www.phpbeginner.com > > > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: Acer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 5:40 AM > > > To: Justin French; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding > > > > > > okay you say zend gave me php and rasmus says 600 people gave me > php. > > you > > > guys need to get your story right. > > > > > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: Justin French [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > Sent: August 3, 2002 9:44 PM > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > &
RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
I am pretty new to PHP, but not to computing since I've been working with them for about 15 years and I would like to say something about this idiotic spamming subject. It's your problem if you get short on cash for buying something you could have done by yourself which, by the way, is the beauty of open source. Now, to cut the crap here, which OS do you use at work or even worse, at home? Have you ever bought a computer that comes with any version of MS Windows preinstalled? If you think that buying any kind commercial product while having the chance to get the same benefits from an open source piece is the right way to go, then do it. If not, just unsubscribe yourself from Zend's newsletter and don't ever visit their home site. By the way, how much did you pay for the last MS Windows you bought? Or do you use copies? Uhmmm... that's not nice. I have more than 10.000 e-mails stored in my PHP-General folder which are all (or most of them) dedicated to help solving PHP issues for us newcomers (by the way, thanks to all). Ok, so maybe some of them are about other things such MySQL or HTML, but hey... it's not easy for everybody to find the right place to ask for help. So, to keep it short, please stop messing with other people's ideas about how the silicon world should work and start making your own ones. You sound like a very smart person. It's really a shame that not a single person from this list will ever give you a job but hey... that was your own decision. Good luck in your life you poor, poor soul. > -Original Message- > From: Acer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 1:20 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Justin French'; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; php- > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding > > i did drop it and then a whole bunch of you late comers piled in again so > why don't you give it up. > > BTW did i mention the core php group are a click? i'm sure all of them > are > busily emailing each other saying "oh what a jerk, we are doing a great > job, > don't listen to that guy, you guys are the best! keep up the good work!" > > > > -Original Message- > From: Maxim Maletsky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: August 4, 2002 12:22 AM > To: 'Acer'; 'Justin French'; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding > > > Acer, I can, we all can, but this is OFF-TOPIC. > > You are insisting on your ideas on this mailing list. We DO disagree > with you, yet, we PREFER to drop this thread off THIS list. > > Please start looking for a right place and right people and tell them > what you think about Zend, PHP, ASP and JSP. > > This mailing list discusses general php problems. Zend's pricing is not > our problem. > > > Sincerely, > > Maxim Maletsky > > PHP Beginner > www.phpbeginner.com > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Acer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 5:57 AM > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Justin French'; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; php- > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding > > > > if you can't debate the issues then get out. > > > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Maxim Maletsky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Sent: August 4, 2002 12:00 AM > > To: 'Acer'; 'Justin French'; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding > > > > > > Acer, > > > > Give it up. We are tired of you. > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > Maxim Maletsky > > > > PHP Beginner > > www.phpbeginner.com > > > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: Acer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 5:40 AM > > > To: Justin French; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding > > > > > > okay you say zend gave me php and rasmus says 600 people gave me > php. > > you > > > guys need to get your story right. > > > > > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: Justin French [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > Sent: August 3, 2002 9:44 PM > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Subject: Re: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding > > > > > > > > > on 03/08/02 11:57 PM, Manuel Lemos ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > > > > > > >> The people for Zend have to eat to live. > > > > > > > > And don't we all? That is th
RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
i did drop it and then a whole bunch of you late comers piled in again so why don't you give it up. BTW did i mention the core php group are a click? i'm sure all of them are busily emailing each other saying "oh what a jerk, we are doing a great job, don't listen to that guy, you guys are the best! keep up the good work!" -Original Message- From: Maxim Maletsky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: August 4, 2002 12:22 AM To: 'Acer'; 'Justin French'; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding Acer, I can, we all can, but this is OFF-TOPIC. You are insisting on your ideas on this mailing list. We DO disagree with you, yet, we PREFER to drop this thread off THIS list. Please start looking for a right place and right people and tell them what you think about Zend, PHP, ASP and JSP. This mailing list discusses general php problems. Zend's pricing is not our problem. Sincerely, Maxim Maletsky PHP Beginner www.phpbeginner.com > -Original Message- > From: Acer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 5:57 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Justin French'; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; php- > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding > > if you can't debate the issues then get out. > > > -Original Message- > From: Maxim Maletsky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: August 4, 2002 12:00 AM > To: 'Acer'; 'Justin French'; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding > > > Acer, > > Give it up. We are tired of you. > > > Sincerely, > > Maxim Maletsky > > PHP Beginner > www.phpbeginner.com > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Acer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 5:40 AM > > To: Justin French; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding > > > > okay you say zend gave me php and rasmus says 600 people gave me php. > you > > guys need to get your story right. > > > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Justin French [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Sent: August 3, 2002 9:44 PM > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: Re: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding > > > > > > on 03/08/02 11:57 PM, Manuel Lemos ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > > > > >> The people for Zend have to eat to live. > > > > > > And don't we all? That is the main problem. If we need to pay USD > $3,000 > > > to be able to compile our PHP programs, doesn't that make not viable > for > > > most of us to sell our PHP programs as closed source? > > > > How much money do you make a week writing PHP scripts? Just remember, > > Zend > > gave you PHP, for free, to use in almost any commercial way you wish. > > > > My clients cant afford Zend, but when the right client comes along, > it'll > > be > > my recommendation without hesitation. > > > > > > Justin French > > > > > > > > -- > > PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) > > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php > > > > > > > > > > -- > > PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) > > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php > > > > -- > PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php > > > > > -- > PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
Acer, I can, we all can, but this is OFF-TOPIC. You are insisting on your ideas on this mailing list. We DO disagree with you, yet, we PREFER to drop this thread off THIS list. Please start looking for a right place and right people and tell them what you think about Zend, PHP, ASP and JSP. This mailing list discusses general php problems. Zend's pricing is not our problem. Sincerely, Maxim Maletsky PHP Beginner www.phpbeginner.com > -Original Message- > From: Acer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 5:57 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Justin French'; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; php- > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding > > if you can't debate the issues then get out. > > > -Original Message- > From: Maxim Maletsky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: August 4, 2002 12:00 AM > To: 'Acer'; 'Justin French'; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding > > > Acer, > > Give it up. We are tired of you. > > > Sincerely, > > Maxim Maletsky > > PHP Beginner > www.phpbeginner.com > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Acer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 5:40 AM > > To: Justin French; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding > > > > okay you say zend gave me php and rasmus says 600 people gave me php. > you > > guys need to get your story right. > > > > > > -----Original Message- > > From: Justin French [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Sent: August 3, 2002 9:44 PM > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: Re: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding > > > > > > on 03/08/02 11:57 PM, Manuel Lemos ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > > > > >> The people for Zend have to eat to live. > > > > > > And don't we all? That is the main problem. If we need to pay USD > $3,000 > > > to be able to compile our PHP programs, doesn't that make not viable > for > > > most of us to sell our PHP programs as closed source? > > > > How much money do you make a week writing PHP scripts? Just remember, > > Zend > > gave you PHP, for free, to use in almost any commercial way you wish. > > > > My clients cant afford Zend, but when the right client comes along, > it'll > > be > > my recommendation without hesitation. > > > > > > Justin French > > > > > > > > -- > > PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) > > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php > > > > > > > > > > -- > > PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) > > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php > > > > -- > PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php > > > > > -- > PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
if you can't debate the issues then get out. -Original Message- From: Maxim Maletsky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: August 4, 2002 12:00 AM To: 'Acer'; 'Justin French'; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding Acer, Give it up. We are tired of you. Sincerely, Maxim Maletsky PHP Beginner www.phpbeginner.com > -Original Message- > From: Acer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 5:40 AM > To: Justin French; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding > > okay you say zend gave me php and rasmus says 600 people gave me php. you > guys need to get your story right. > > > -Original Message- > From: Justin French [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: August 3, 2002 9:44 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding > > > on 03/08/02 11:57 PM, Manuel Lemos ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > > >> The people for Zend have to eat to live. > > > > And don't we all? That is the main problem. If we need to pay USD $3,000 > > to be able to compile our PHP programs, doesn't that make not viable for > > most of us to sell our PHP programs as closed source? > > How much money do you make a week writing PHP scripts? Just remember, > Zend > gave you PHP, for free, to use in almost any commercial way you wish. > > My clients cant afford Zend, but when the right client comes along, it'll > be > my recommendation without hesitation. > > > Justin French > > > > -- > PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php > > > > > -- > PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
i actually pointed this out awhile ago that there will be a competing product for the encoder and accelerator so i didn't see a point in zend continuing to destroy php's chances. i am trying to discuss this normally but i guess you forgot that someone told me to bug off or the other guy that told me to f***k off. i guess you could define popular in different ways but how many people actually know what php is and what are the odds are getting someone to pay you to do php. those are my measures. -Original Message- From: Chris Shiflett [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: August 3, 2002 11:18 PM To: Acer Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding 1. You complain about Zend charging for a product when someone else has created an equivalent open source product. 2. You support ColdFusion and ASP when someone else has created an equivalent open source product. The point is that you need better logic in your arguments before you will receive thoughtful answers. Your "questions" seem more like adolescent attacks, and your arguments have no merit. Thus, the responses you have received are similar to responses you will receive anywhere when your purpose appears to only be to pick a fight. If you ask intelligent questions or make intelligent arguments, people will assume you are an intelligent person and deserving of a thoughtful answer. As for PHP in the marketplace, I would argue that it is the most popular Web scripting language in the world with ColdFusion and JSP being close contenders and ASP being successful only because of the Microsoft believers (who are switching to PHP and others more because of the poor quality of IIS than the poor quality and non-portability of ASP). I make a very nice living programming in PHP, and most of the job offers I receive are for PHP, even though I have extensive experience in ColdFusion and other Web scripting languages (even ASP). But, you know what? No one cares. The people who contribute to PHP do so because they enjoy it. People like Rasmus enjoy it so much that they put up with adolescent crap on this list from time to time and even provide undeserving responses to useless drivel. You're not going to alter anyone's idea of PHP with baseless attacks. It's the same approach as politicians who try to attack their opponents; you just end up looking like a fool, and no one believes you anyway. People who like it will use it. People who don't won't. Now can we end the spam? Chris Acer wrote: >Okay fine whatever. Let's just continue sticking our heads in the sand and >pretend php developers isn't last on the list of jobs available compared to >asp, jsp and cf developers. > >That topic isn't important so back to normal and I'll ask a php question. >What's the difference between = and ==? I'm too lazy to read the manual. > -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
Acer, Give it up. We are tired of you. Sincerely, Maxim Maletsky PHP Beginner www.phpbeginner.com > -Original Message- > From: Acer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 5:40 AM > To: Justin French; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding > > okay you say zend gave me php and rasmus says 600 people gave me php. you > guys need to get your story right. > > > -Original Message- > From: Justin French [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: August 3, 2002 9:44 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding > > > on 03/08/02 11:57 PM, Manuel Lemos ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > > >> The people for Zend have to eat to live. > > > > And don't we all? That is the main problem. If we need to pay USD $3,000 > > to be able to compile our PHP programs, doesn't that make not viable for > > most of us to sell our PHP programs as closed source? > > How much money do you make a week writing PHP scripts? Just remember, > Zend > gave you PHP, for free, to use in almost any commercial way you wish. > > My clients cant afford Zend, but when the right client comes along, it'll > be > my recommendation without hesitation. > > > Justin French > > > > -- > PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php > > > > > -- > PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
you guys are the ones in denial and can't stand that someone is disagreeing with you. -Original Message- From: Justin French [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: August 3, 2002 10:03 PM To: Acer; Danny Shepherd Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding on 04/08/02 8:01 AM, Acer ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > Sorry for bothering you, I didn't think I would hit a nerve. Didn't think you'd hit a nerve? You're complaining profusely about the price charged for a commercial product, and bagging the crap out of the developers, contributors and people who made PHP what it is. Commercial products are a case of supply and demand. Zend are offering a certain suite of products for a certain price. If you wish to obtain that product, you pay that price. If you don't feel the product is worth the asking price, search for an alternative. If you can find an alternative product which suits your needs (like a free/cheaper encoder, a different language like JSP or ASP, or whatever), then by all means go and buy that one instead, and leave this list in peace. I found a suit the other day which was a perfect fit, and looked great. problem was it was $1000. So rather than complaining to the sales assistant, I looked around and found a similar suit for about half the price, and settled on that, even though there are some quality differences. Justin French -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
obviously if it's in beta then it's not as mature as zend's encoder. but if you think over time, it will get better and match zend so where does that leave php? zend would have a competing product that costs less so who would pay the several thousands of dollars for zend? zend will fold up shop and bye bye zend. -Original Message- From: Justin French [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: August 3, 2002 9:50 PM To: Acer; Rasmus Lerdorf Cc: Dennis Moore; Andrey Hristov; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding on 04/08/02 3:30 AM, Acer ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > Don't get me wrong rasmus, I don't have any problems with you. It's just > fishy when some guy in the UK was able to put together a php accelerator for > free and a php encoder for $0.50 a pop while zend is charging several > thousands. You have to wonder how much work zend is actually putting into > their products to justify the price. Plus, these guys are the ones building > php so something is not right. Zend is a commercial company, and has a right to charge for a product. My guess is that the developers of the Zend engine (PHP) would also make the best developers of any other product (like an accelerator or encoder) that is associated with PHP. If someone is charging so little for the product (it is Beta, so I wouldn't use it anyway), then there is a good *chance* that it's a far less superior product. Let me ask you Acer, how much money do you make a week from developing PHP web applications with the free PHP scripting language? The $2000 doesn't seem like much in comparison, does it. Justin French -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
okay you say zend gave me php and rasmus says 600 people gave me php. you guys need to get your story right. -Original Message- From: Justin French [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: August 3, 2002 9:44 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding on 03/08/02 11:57 PM, Manuel Lemos ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: >> The people for Zend have to eat to live. > > And don't we all? That is the main problem. If we need to pay USD $3,000 > to be able to compile our PHP programs, doesn't that make not viable for > most of us to sell our PHP programs as closed source? How much money do you make a week writing PHP scripts? Just remember, Zend gave you PHP, for free, to use in almost any commercial way you wish. My clients cant afford Zend, but when the right client comes along, it'll be my recommendation without hesitation. Justin French -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
1. You complain about Zend charging for a product when someone else has created an equivalent open source product. 2. You support ColdFusion and ASP when someone else has created an equivalent open source product. The point is that you need better logic in your arguments before you will receive thoughtful answers. Your "questions" seem more like adolescent attacks, and your arguments have no merit. Thus, the responses you have received are similar to responses you will receive anywhere when your purpose appears to only be to pick a fight. If you ask intelligent questions or make intelligent arguments, people will assume you are an intelligent person and deserving of a thoughtful answer. As for PHP in the marketplace, I would argue that it is the most popular Web scripting language in the world with ColdFusion and JSP being close contenders and ASP being successful only because of the Microsoft believers (who are switching to PHP and others more because of the poor quality of IIS than the poor quality and non-portability of ASP). I make a very nice living programming in PHP, and most of the job offers I receive are for PHP, even though I have extensive experience in ColdFusion and other Web scripting languages (even ASP). But, you know what? No one cares. The people who contribute to PHP do so because they enjoy it. People like Rasmus enjoy it so much that they put up with adolescent crap on this list from time to time and even provide undeserving responses to useless drivel. You're not going to alter anyone's idea of PHP with baseless attacks. It's the same approach as politicians who try to attack their opponents; you just end up looking like a fool, and no one believes you anyway. People who like it will use it. People who don't won't. Now can we end the spam? Chris Acer wrote: >Okay fine whatever. Let's just continue sticking our heads in the sand and >pretend php developers isn't last on the list of jobs available compared to >asp, jsp and cf developers. > >That topic isn't important so back to normal and I'll ask a php question. >What's the difference between = and ==? I'm too lazy to read the manual. > -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
on 04/08/02 8:01 AM, Acer ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > Sorry for bothering you, I didn't think I would hit a nerve. Didn't think you'd hit a nerve? You're complaining profusely about the price charged for a commercial product, and bagging the crap out of the developers, contributors and people who made PHP what it is. Commercial products are a case of supply and demand. Zend are offering a certain suite of products for a certain price. If you wish to obtain that product, you pay that price. If you don't feel the product is worth the asking price, search for an alternative. If you can find an alternative product which suits your needs (like a free/cheaper encoder, a different language like JSP or ASP, or whatever), then by all means go and buy that one instead, and leave this list in peace. I found a suit the other day which was a perfect fit, and looked great. problem was it was $1000. So rather than complaining to the sales assistant, I looked around and found a similar suit for about half the price, and settled on that, even though there are some quality differences. Justin French -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
'==' is not an associative operator. Read on: http://www.php.net/manual/en/language.operators.php Sincerely, Maxim Maletsky PHP Beginner www.phpbeginner.com > -Original Message- > From: Acer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 3:38 AM > To: Maxim Maletsky; 'Rasmus Lerdorf' > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding > > Okay fine whatever. Let's just continue sticking our heads in the sand > and > pretend php developers isn't last on the list of jobs available compared > to > asp, jsp and cf developers. > > That topic isn't important so back to normal and I'll ask a php question. > What's the difference between = and ==? I'm too lazy to read the manual. > > > -Original Message- > From: Maxim Maletsky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: August 3, 2002 7:42 PM > To: 'Acer'; 'Rasmus Lerdorf' > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding > > > Acer, what the fk are you mumbling about? > > (sorry for mine to you introduction) > > 600 people at PHP Dev Group (and I am one of them too) create and > document PHP Programming Language for free, because they like it this > way. > > You, get your boss's money, buy a Zend's encoder, make a script that, > perhaps, has an equivalent freely available on sourseforge.net, encode > it and stick a it price to then sell the "cat in a lot" to those > paranoids who do not trust open source projects like your own boss does. > > The "paranoids" then make services we all here pay, and on our spare > time - we keep developing the free code for you (always, because we like > it this way). > > What are you trying to prove by being devil's lawyer here? > > We all know how e-business works, most of us are actually on managing > positions if not job consultants. > > So, Acer, from now on - ask a php-general question or answer one. Deal? > > > Sincerely, > > Maxim Maletsky > > PHP Beginner > www.phpbeginner.com > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Acer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 12:01 AM > > To: Rasmus Lerdorf > > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding > > > > Okay so you support zend but hate encoders. Doesn't zend make an > encoder? > > To me an encoder is used to sell your product. It doesn't mean people > > still > > won't release their code to add to the public knowledge. > > > > If you didn't release your code rasmus then those 600 people won't > have > > made > > php what it is now so you can't have it both ways. > > > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Rasmus Lerdorf [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Sent: August 3, 2002 2:06 PM > > To: Acer > > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding > > > > > > Because it is a silly thread and I shouldn't be replying at all. > Others > > in the group either have more sense or have given up on answering > > php-general questions. > > > > My view on encoders is that they are unnecessary and rather evil. I > would > > never ever purchase a php-based application that did not come with the > php > > source code. If you want to restrict your code somehow, do it through > a > > license. People who choose to violate that license are the same > people > > who will hack your encoded scripts anyway. And this way the honest > > customers will have the benefit of the code to customize, learn from, > > build on top of. Closed source stuff stifles innovation and I > personally > > refuse to work on a PHP encoder for this reason. Imagine if I had > never > > released the source for PHP? We would not be having this discussion > > today. > > > > I know plenty of people disagree with this view, but there you have > it. > > > > -Rasmus > > > > On Sat, 3 Aug 2002, Acer wrote: > > > > > I made that statement because this subject has been brought up > several > > times > > > and nothing has been said from the php gods. I mean out of this > whole > > > thread, your only comment is "That's probably the most uninformed > > statement > > > I have seen posted to this list in a very long time." > > > > > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: Rasmus Lerdorf [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > Sent: August 3, 2002 1
Re: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
on 04/08/02 3:30 AM, Acer ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > Don't get me wrong rasmus, I don't have any problems with you. It's just > fishy when some guy in the UK was able to put together a php accelerator for > free and a php encoder for $0.50 a pop while zend is charging several > thousands. You have to wonder how much work zend is actually putting into > their products to justify the price. Plus, these guys are the ones building > php so something is not right. Zend is a commercial company, and has a right to charge for a product. My guess is that the developers of the Zend engine (PHP) would also make the best developers of any other product (like an accelerator or encoder) that is associated with PHP. If someone is charging so little for the product (it is Beta, so I wouldn't use it anyway), then there is a good *chance* that it's a far less superior product. Let me ask you Acer, how much money do you make a week from developing PHP web applications with the free PHP scripting language? The $2000 doesn't seem like much in comparison, does it. Justin French -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
Okay fine whatever. Let's just continue sticking our heads in the sand and pretend php developers isn't last on the list of jobs available compared to asp, jsp and cf developers. That topic isn't important so back to normal and I'll ask a php question. What's the difference between = and ==? I'm too lazy to read the manual. -Original Message- From: Maxim Maletsky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: August 3, 2002 7:42 PM To: 'Acer'; 'Rasmus Lerdorf' Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding Acer, what the fk are you mumbling about? (sorry for mine to you introduction) 600 people at PHP Dev Group (and I am one of them too) create and document PHP Programming Language for free, because they like it this way. You, get your boss's money, buy a Zend's encoder, make a script that, perhaps, has an equivalent freely available on sourseforge.net, encode it and stick a it price to then sell the "cat in a lot" to those paranoids who do not trust open source projects like your own boss does. The "paranoids" then make services we all here pay, and on our spare time - we keep developing the free code for you (always, because we like it this way). What are you trying to prove by being devil's lawyer here? We all know how e-business works, most of us are actually on managing positions if not job consultants. So, Acer, from now on - ask a php-general question or answer one. Deal? Sincerely, Maxim Maletsky PHP Beginner www.phpbeginner.com > -Original Message- > From: Acer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 12:01 AM > To: Rasmus Lerdorf > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding > > Okay so you support zend but hate encoders. Doesn't zend make an encoder? > To me an encoder is used to sell your product. It doesn't mean people > still > won't release their code to add to the public knowledge. > > If you didn't release your code rasmus then those 600 people won't have > made > php what it is now so you can't have it both ways. > > > -Original Message- > From: Rasmus Lerdorf [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: August 3, 2002 2:06 PM > To: Acer > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding > > > Because it is a silly thread and I shouldn't be replying at all. Others > in the group either have more sense or have given up on answering > php-general questions. > > My view on encoders is that they are unnecessary and rather evil. I would > never ever purchase a php-based application that did not come with the php > source code. If you want to restrict your code somehow, do it through a > license. People who choose to violate that license are the same people > who will hack your encoded scripts anyway. And this way the honest > customers will have the benefit of the code to customize, learn from, > build on top of. Closed source stuff stifles innovation and I personally > refuse to work on a PHP encoder for this reason. Imagine if I had never > released the source for PHP? We would not be having this discussion > today. > > I know plenty of people disagree with this view, but there you have it. > > -Rasmus > > On Sat, 3 Aug 2002, Acer wrote: > > > I made that statement because this subject has been brought up several > times > > and nothing has been said from the php gods. I mean out of this whole > > thread, your only comment is "That's probably the most uninformed > statement > > I have seen posted to this list in a very long time." > > > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Rasmus Lerdorf [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Sent: August 3, 2002 1:04 PM > > To: Acer > > Cc: Dennis Moore; Andrey Hristov; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding > > > > > > > You'll never hear anything from the core php group since they are a > tight > > > click so it's business as usual. > > > > That's probably the most uninformed statement I have seen posted to this > > list in a very long time. > > > > -Rasmus > > > > > > -- > > PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) > > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php > > > > > > > > > > > -- > PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
on 03/08/02 11:57 PM, Manuel Lemos ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: >> The people for Zend have to eat to live. > > And don't we all? That is the main problem. If we need to pay USD $3,000 > to be able to compile our PHP programs, doesn't that make not viable for > most of us to sell our PHP programs as closed source? How much money do you make a week writing PHP scripts? Just remember, Zend gave you PHP, for free, to use in almost any commercial way you wish. My clients cant afford Zend, but when the right client comes along, it'll be my recommendation without hesitation. Justin French -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
Acer, what the fk are you mumbling about? (sorry for mine to you introduction) 600 people at PHP Dev Group (and I am one of them too) create and document PHP Programming Language for free, because they like it this way. You, get your boss's money, buy a Zend's encoder, make a script that, perhaps, has an equivalent freely available on sourseforge.net, encode it and stick a it price to then sell the "cat in a lot" to those paranoids who do not trust open source projects like your own boss does. The "paranoids" then make services we all here pay, and on our spare time - we keep developing the free code for you (always, because we like it this way). What are you trying to prove by being devil's lawyer here? We all know how e-business works, most of us are actually on managing positions if not job consultants. So, Acer, from now on - ask a php-general question or answer one. Deal? Sincerely, Maxim Maletsky PHP Beginner www.phpbeginner.com > -Original Message- > From: Acer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 12:01 AM > To: Rasmus Lerdorf > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding > > Okay so you support zend but hate encoders. Doesn't zend make an encoder? > To me an encoder is used to sell your product. It doesn't mean people > still > won't release their code to add to the public knowledge. > > If you didn't release your code rasmus then those 600 people won't have > made > php what it is now so you can't have it both ways. > > > -Original Message- > From: Rasmus Lerdorf [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: August 3, 2002 2:06 PM > To: Acer > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding > > > Because it is a silly thread and I shouldn't be replying at all. Others > in the group either have more sense or have given up on answering > php-general questions. > > My view on encoders is that they are unnecessary and rather evil. I would > never ever purchase a php-based application that did not come with the php > source code. If you want to restrict your code somehow, do it through a > license. People who choose to violate that license are the same people > who will hack your encoded scripts anyway. And this way the honest > customers will have the benefit of the code to customize, learn from, > build on top of. Closed source stuff stifles innovation and I personally > refuse to work on a PHP encoder for this reason. Imagine if I had never > released the source for PHP? We would not be having this discussion > today. > > I know plenty of people disagree with this view, but there you have it. > > -Rasmus > > On Sat, 3 Aug 2002, Acer wrote: > > > I made that statement because this subject has been brought up several > times > > and nothing has been said from the php gods. I mean out of this whole > > thread, your only comment is "That's probably the most uninformed > statement > > I have seen posted to this list in a very long time." > > > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Rasmus Lerdorf [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Sent: August 3, 2002 1:04 PM > > To: Acer > > Cc: Dennis Moore; Andrey Hristov; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding > > > > > > > You'll never hear anything from the core php group since they are a > tight > > > click so it's business as usual. > > > > That's probably the most uninformed statement I have seen posted to this > > list in a very long time. > > > > -Rasmus > > > > > > -- > > PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) > > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php > > > > > > > > > > > -- > PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
> Call me a cynic but to maintain your status as php god you have to > contribute to the list so you can sign a book deal. Cynic? Rather paranoid > Scott wrote: > > For what it's worth, I just left a 50,000 employee company that would > not > > let me use PHP in production until I showed them the Zend suite of > > products. When I asked for the money to buy their IDE and it arrived I > > was allowed to move my PHP code to production. > > So zend charges a huge amount of money so that your boss can feel good > about > making the right decision. It happens everywhere, and not only for PHP but for all Open Source. Very often this behavior is seem when desiding the Linux platforms over MS. And, that is what pulls decision makers choosing ASP and JSP - they are products, not projects. > That's great but how's that working? Is php > becoming a contender? Like I said before do a search for php developers, > you won't find any demand for it. Jsp is newer then php and they have a > lot > more jobs available so something isn't working. > Things ARE working, there is just a lot of conservatism within e-business. Sincerely, Maxim Maletsky PHP Beginner www.phpbeginner.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
Sorry for bothering you, I didn't think I would hit a nerve. -Original Message- From: Danny Shepherd [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: August 3, 2002 5:59 PM Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding So, go write JSP for someone then and stop bugging us. - Original Message - From: "Acer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Scott" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 10:48 PM Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding > Scott wrote: > > You're kidding, right? When was the last time you saw one the creator of > > ASP on a mailing list personally answering code questions? > > Call me a cynic but to maintain your status as php god you have to > contribute to the list so you can sign a book deal. > > Scott wrote: > > For what it's worth, I just left a 50,000 employee company that would not > > let me use PHP in production until I showed them the Zend suite of > > products. When I asked for the money to buy their IDE and it arrived I > > was allowed to move my PHP code to production. > > So zend charges a huge amount of money so that your boss can feel good about > making the right decision. That's great but how's that working? Is php > becoming a contender? Like I said before do a search for php developers, > you won't find any demand for it. Jsp is newer then php and they have a lot > more jobs available so something isn't working. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
Okay so you support zend but hate encoders. Doesn't zend make an encoder? To me an encoder is used to sell your product. It doesn't mean people still won't release their code to add to the public knowledge. If you didn't release your code rasmus then those 600 people won't have made php what it is now so you can't have it both ways. -Original Message- From: Rasmus Lerdorf [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: August 3, 2002 2:06 PM To: Acer Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding Because it is a silly thread and I shouldn't be replying at all. Others in the group either have more sense or have given up on answering php-general questions. My view on encoders is that they are unnecessary and rather evil. I would never ever purchase a php-based application that did not come with the php source code. If you want to restrict your code somehow, do it through a license. People who choose to violate that license are the same people who will hack your encoded scripts anyway. And this way the honest customers will have the benefit of the code to customize, learn from, build on top of. Closed source stuff stifles innovation and I personally refuse to work on a PHP encoder for this reason. Imagine if I had never released the source for PHP? We would not be having this discussion today. I know plenty of people disagree with this view, but there you have it. -Rasmus On Sat, 3 Aug 2002, Acer wrote: > I made that statement because this subject has been brought up several times > and nothing has been said from the php gods. I mean out of this whole > thread, your only comment is "That's probably the most uninformed statement > I have seen posted to this list in a very long time." > > > -Original Message- > From: Rasmus Lerdorf [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: August 3, 2002 1:04 PM > To: Acer > Cc: Dennis Moore; Andrey Hristov; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding > > > > You'll never hear anything from the core php group since they are a tight > > click so it's business as usual. > > That's probably the most uninformed statement I have seen posted to this > list in a very long time. > > -Rasmus > > > -- > PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php > > > -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
Okay great let me change my opinion to php is being built by 600 people who do a lot of infighting. I feel much better. -Original Message- From: Rasmus Lerdorf [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: August 3, 2002 1:50 PM To: Acer Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding There are nearly 600 people with cvs commit access to cvs.php.net. Saying that Zend are the ones building PHP is a gross injustice to the majority of the people working on PHP. I have absolutely no relationship with Zend and I have built big chunks of PHP as have countless others with nothing to gain from Zend commercializing anything. Commercial interest in the PHP market is simple fact that comes from PHP's overwhelming success. It is a sign of the project's maturity and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. And if I had to choose between commercial interests also contributing to PHP itself vs. not contributing, I would much prefer them to contribute things. There are plenty of companies selling into the PHP space without contributing anything back to PHP. So, faulting Zend for having both commercial products and also contributing to PHP itself makes very little sense to me. Finally, you are arguing about commercial software pricing not matching the effort that goes into making it? C'mon, if all commercial software was priced simply to recoup development costs, then Windows should cost about 2 cents and Oracle about a dime. The bottom line is that there is no conspiracy here. The PHP Group is far from a tightknit group that agrees on everything. In fact we disagree on just about everything you can imagine and we are certainly not a group of people who sit around with nothing to do except help Zend make money. You will find if you poke around a little bit, several members, including myself, have helped projects that make free alternatives to various commercial products from Zend and other companies. -Rasmus On Sat, 3 Aug 2002, Acer wrote: > Don't get me wrong rasmus, I don't have any problems with you. It's just > fishy when some guy in the UK was able to put together a php accelerator for > free and a php encoder for $0.50 a pop while zend is charging several > thousands. You have to wonder how much work zend is actually putting into > their products to justify the price. Plus, these guys are the ones building > php so something is not right. > > > > -Original Message- > From: Rasmus Lerdorf [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: August 3, 2002 1:04 PM > To: Acer > Cc: Dennis Moore; Andrey Hristov; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding > > > > You'll never hear anything from the core php group since they are a tight > > click so it's business as usual. > > That's probably the most uninformed statement I have seen posted to this > list in a very long time. > > -Rasmus > > > -- > PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php > > > -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
So, go write JSP for someone then and stop bugging us. - Original Message - From: "Acer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Scott" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 10:48 PM Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding > Scott wrote: > > You're kidding, right? When was the last time you saw one the creator of > > ASP on a mailing list personally answering code questions? > > Call me a cynic but to maintain your status as php god you have to > contribute to the list so you can sign a book deal. > > Scott wrote: > > For what it's worth, I just left a 50,000 employee company that would not > > let me use PHP in production until I showed them the Zend suite of > > products. When I asked for the money to buy their IDE and it arrived I > > was allowed to move my PHP code to production. > > So zend charges a huge amount of money so that your boss can feel good about > making the right decision. That's great but how's that working? Is php > becoming a contender? Like I said before do a search for php developers, > you won't find any demand for it. Jsp is newer then php and they have a lot > more jobs available so something isn't working. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
Scott wrote: > You're kidding, right? When was the last time you saw one the creator of > ASP on a mailing list personally answering code questions? Call me a cynic but to maintain your status as php god you have to contribute to the list so you can sign a book deal. Scott wrote: > For what it's worth, I just left a 50,000 employee company that would not > let me use PHP in production until I showed them the Zend suite of > products. When I asked for the money to buy their IDE and it arrived I > was allowed to move my PHP code to production. So zend charges a huge amount of money so that your boss can feel good about making the right decision. That's great but how's that working? Is php becoming a contender? Like I said before do a search for php developers, you won't find any demand for it. Jsp is newer then php and they have a lot more jobs available so something isn't working. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
On Sunday 04 August 2002 04:38, Bob Lockie wrote: > >My view on encoders is that they are unnecessary and rather evil. I would > >never ever purchase a php-based application that did not come with the php > >source code. If you want to restrict your code somehow, do it through a > >license. People who choose to violate that license are the same people > >who will hack your encoded scripts anyway. And this way the honest > >customers will have the benefit of the code to customize, learn from, > >build on top of. Closed source stuff stifles innovation and I personally > >refuse to work on a PHP encoder for this reason. Imagine if I had never > >released the source for PHP? We would not be having this discussion > >today. > > Very well said. > I applaud all the devlopers who work on open source software. Isn't it a touch ironic (or hypocritical) when people want a open source product to produce a closed source product? It's almost as bad as MS 'embracing' an open source product into their closed source rubbish. -- Jason Wong -> Gremlins Associates -> www.gremlins.com.hk /* God requireth not a uniformity of religion. - Roger Williams */ -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
>My view on encoders is that they are unnecessary and rather evil. I would >never ever purchase a php-based application that did not come with the php >source code. If you want to restrict your code somehow, do it through a >license. People who choose to violate that license are the same people >who will hack your encoded scripts anyway. And this way the honest >customers will have the benefit of the code to customize, learn from, >build on top of. Closed source stuff stifles innovation and I personally >refuse to work on a PHP encoder for this reason. Imagine if I had never >released the source for PHP? We would not be having this discussion >today. Very well said. I applaud all the devlopers who work on open source software. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
Well said, Rasmus. - Maxim Maletsky -Original Message- From: Rasmus Lerdorf [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 8:06 PM To: Acer Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding Because it is a silly thread and I shouldn't be replying at all. Others in the group either have more sense or have given up on answering php-general questions. My view on encoders is that they are unnecessary and rather evil. I would never ever purchase a php-based application that did not come with the php source code. If you want to restrict your code somehow, do it through a license. People who choose to violate that license are the same people who will hack your encoded scripts anyway. And this way the honest customers will have the benefit of the code to customize, learn from, build on top of. Closed source stuff stifles innovation and I personally refuse to work on a PHP encoder for this reason. Imagine if I had never released the source for PHP? We would not be having this discussion today. I know plenty of people disagree with this view, but there you have it. -Rasmus On Sat, 3 Aug 2002, Acer wrote: > I made that statement because this subject has been brought up several times > and nothing has been said from the php gods. I mean out of this whole > thread, your only comment is "That's probably the most uninformed statement > I have seen posted to this list in a very long time." > > > -Original Message- > From: Rasmus Lerdorf [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: August 3, 2002 1:04 PM > To: Acer > Cc: Dennis Moore; Andrey Hristov; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding > > > > You'll never hear anything from the core php group since they are a tight > > click so it's business as usual. > > That's probably the most uninformed statement I have seen posted to this > list in a very long time. > > -Rasmus > > > -- > PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php > > > -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
Because it is a silly thread and I shouldn't be replying at all. Others in the group either have more sense or have given up on answering php-general questions. My view on encoders is that they are unnecessary and rather evil. I would never ever purchase a php-based application that did not come with the php source code. If you want to restrict your code somehow, do it through a license. People who choose to violate that license are the same people who will hack your encoded scripts anyway. And this way the honest customers will have the benefit of the code to customize, learn from, build on top of. Closed source stuff stifles innovation and I personally refuse to work on a PHP encoder for this reason. Imagine if I had never released the source for PHP? We would not be having this discussion today. I know plenty of people disagree with this view, but there you have it. -Rasmus On Sat, 3 Aug 2002, Acer wrote: > I made that statement because this subject has been brought up several times > and nothing has been said from the php gods. I mean out of this whole > thread, your only comment is "That's probably the most uninformed statement > I have seen posted to this list in a very long time." > > > -Original Message- > From: Rasmus Lerdorf [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: August 3, 2002 1:04 PM > To: Acer > Cc: Dennis Moore; Andrey Hristov; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding > > > > You'll never hear anything from the core php group since they are a tight > > click so it's business as usual. > > That's probably the most uninformed statement I have seen posted to this > list in a very long time. > > -Rasmus > > > -- > PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php > > > -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
There are nearly 600 people with cvs commit access to cvs.php.net. Saying that Zend are the ones building PHP is a gross injustice to the majority of the people working on PHP. I have absolutely no relationship with Zend and I have built big chunks of PHP as have countless others with nothing to gain from Zend commercializing anything. Commercial interest in the PHP market is simple fact that comes from PHP's overwhelming success. It is a sign of the project's maturity and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. And if I had to choose between commercial interests also contributing to PHP itself vs. not contributing, I would much prefer them to contribute things. There are plenty of companies selling into the PHP space without contributing anything back to PHP. So, faulting Zend for having both commercial products and also contributing to PHP itself makes very little sense to me. Finally, you are arguing about commercial software pricing not matching the effort that goes into making it? C'mon, if all commercial software was priced simply to recoup development costs, then Windows should cost about 2 cents and Oracle about a dime. The bottom line is that there is no conspiracy here. The PHP Group is far from a tightknit group that agrees on everything. In fact we disagree on just about everything you can imagine and we are certainly not a group of people who sit around with nothing to do except help Zend make money. You will find if you poke around a little bit, several members, including myself, have helped projects that make free alternatives to various commercial products from Zend and other companies. -Rasmus On Sat, 3 Aug 2002, Acer wrote: > Don't get me wrong rasmus, I don't have any problems with you. It's just > fishy when some guy in the UK was able to put together a php accelerator for > free and a php encoder for $0.50 a pop while zend is charging several > thousands. You have to wonder how much work zend is actually putting into > their products to justify the price. Plus, these guys are the ones building > php so something is not right. > > > > -Original Message- > From: Rasmus Lerdorf [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: August 3, 2002 1:04 PM > To: Acer > Cc: Dennis Moore; Andrey Hristov; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding > > > > You'll never hear anything from the core php group since they are a tight > > click so it's business as usual. > > That's probably the most uninformed statement I have seen posted to this > list in a very long time. > > -Rasmus > > > -- > PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php > > > -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
Don't get me wrong rasmus, I don't have any problems with you. It's just fishy when some guy in the UK was able to put together a php accelerator for free and a php encoder for $0.50 a pop while zend is charging several thousands. You have to wonder how much work zend is actually putting into their products to justify the price. Plus, these guys are the ones building php so something is not right. -Original Message- From: Rasmus Lerdorf [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: August 3, 2002 1:04 PM To: Acer Cc: Dennis Moore; Andrey Hristov; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding > You'll never hear anything from the core php group since they are a tight > click so it's business as usual. That's probably the most uninformed statement I have seen posted to this list in a very long time. -Rasmus -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
On Sat, 3 Aug 2002, Acer wrote: > You'll never hear anything from the core php group since they are a tight > click so it's business as usual. You're kidding, right? When was the last time you saw one the creator of ASP on a mailing list personally answering code questions? For what it's worth, I just left a 50,000 employee company that would not let me use PHP in production until I showed them the Zend suite of products. When I asked for the money to buy their IDE and it arrived I was allowed to move my PHP code to production. Same deal as Sun now charging for Star Office, in corporate eyes they now see a company making money from a product which will give the company the ability to enhance the product and most important provide support. So, while we all may not be able to afford some of the tools that Zend is creating they continue to have a dedication to the open source community. I view it as the better Zend does, the more developers they can hire and the better all of the products will be including their contributions to PHP. -Scott -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
I made that statement because this subject has been brought up several times and nothing has been said from the php gods. I mean out of this whole thread, your only comment is "That's probably the most uninformed statement I have seen posted to this list in a very long time." -Original Message- From: Rasmus Lerdorf [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: August 3, 2002 1:04 PM To: Acer Cc: Dennis Moore; Andrey Hristov; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding > You'll never hear anything from the core php group since they are a tight > click so it's business as usual. That's probably the most uninformed statement I have seen posted to this list in a very long time. -Rasmus -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
> You'll never hear anything from the core php group since they are a tight > click so it's business as usual. That's probably the most uninformed statement I have seen posted to this list in a very long time. -Rasmus -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
There is a free php accelerator so I don't know why you would pay for one. www.php-accelerator.co.uk The same guy (Nick) has also just made an encoder. It is in beta testing right now and there's no windows version yet but that should be coming soon. I think it's like $0.50 to encode your program which is much more affordable. http://www.php-encoder.com I think the problem with zend is that they have put up the guise that php is an opensource project but to actually use it in production you had to pay several thousands every year for the accelerator and the encoder. It kinda feels like a bait and switch to me which is why I personally think zend is bad for php. Just do a search for jobs for asp, cf or jsp. There are a ton of jobs for these languages and you would be lucky to find one for a php developer. So zend rakes in the money and does no real marketing with that money for php is the way I see it. You'll never hear anything from the core php group since they are a tight click so it's business as usual. Now that Nick has released the free accelerator and an inexpensive ($0.50 per shot) encoder it might change but I don't know if it's too late. -Original Message- From: Dennis Moore [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: August 3, 2002 10:58 AM To: Andrey Hristov; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding Everyone understands that Zend has to eat, but so do most of us small developers. I have no problem with them charging for their products. IMO they would make more money if the pricing for the encoder would be less. This is a fundamental feature that most of us need. I would offer a Pro version of the Zend Studio and bundle the encoder with it for abou $500. This would enable Zend to capture a significant market share among PHP developers withoug breaking the bank. Just a thought... - Original Message - From: "Andrey Hristov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 8:16 AM Subject: Re: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding > > >>>So... > > >>>Is this equivalent to Zend Encoder? > > >> > > >>Not exactly, but in some aspects it is/will be better like the ability > > >>to generate executable standalone PHP programs that you can distribute > > >>independently. There is also the question of the price that for Zend > > >>Encoder is ridiculously expensive. > > >> > The people for Zend have to eat to live. > People, if there is no Zend there is no core for PHP. This is the same as > with MySQL. MySQL is free under GPL > but has no subselects because the companies that has commercial licenses > didn't wanted that - Monty has > to eat and he codes other features. > IMO Zend must exist and this is only possible by selling its products. > If the company we work for has the money to buy Zend Accelerator licenses > why not do that instead of using > other Open Source accelerators. I just want the people from Zend to continue > their tremendous work and > we will have PHP5 and PHP6 and so on otherwise start learning ASP or JSP. > > > My 2 cents. > > Regards, > Andrey > > > -- > PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php > -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
Everyone understands that Zend has to eat, but so do most of us small developers. I have no problem with them charging for their products. IMO they would make more money if the pricing for the encoder would be less. This is a fundamental feature that most of us need. I would offer a Pro version of the Zend Studio and bundle the encoder with it for abou $500. This would enable Zend to capture a significant market share among PHP developers withoug breaking the bank. Just a thought... - Original Message - From: "Andrey Hristov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 8:16 AM Subject: Re: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding > > >>>So... > > >>>Is this equivalent to Zend Encoder? > > >> > > >>Not exactly, but in some aspects it is/will be better like the ability > > >>to generate executable standalone PHP programs that you can distribute > > >>independently. There is also the question of the price that for Zend > > >>Encoder is ridiculously expensive. > > >> > The people for Zend have to eat to live. > People, if there is no Zend there is no core for PHP. This is the same as > with MySQL. MySQL is free under GPL > but has no subselects because the companies that has commercial licenses > didn't wanted that - Monty has > to eat and he codes other features. > IMO Zend must exist and this is only possible by selling its products. > If the company we work for has the money to buy Zend Accelerator licenses > why not do that instead of using > other Open Source accelerators. I just want the people from Zend to continue > their tremendous work and > we will have PHP5 and PHP6 and so on otherwise start learning ASP or JSP. > > > My 2 cents. > > Regards, > Andrey > > > -- > PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php > -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
Hello, On 08/03/2002 09:16 AM, Andrey Hristov wrote: >So... >Is this equivalent to Zend Encoder? Not exactly, but in some aspects it is/will be better like the ability to generate executable standalone PHP programs that you can distribute independently. There is also the question of the price that for Zend Encoder is ridiculously expensive. >>> > The people for Zend have to eat to live. And don't we all? That is the main problem. If we need to pay USD $3,000 to be able to compile our PHP programs, doesn't that make not viable for most of us to sell our PHP programs as closed source? > People, if there is no Zend there is no core for PHP. This is the same as > with MySQL. MySQL is free under GPL > but has no subselects because the companies that has commercial licenses > didn't wanted that - Monty has > to eat and he codes other features. If there is something that Zend people do not have a problem that is to be able to eat from their work. Just recently they announced a USD $300,000 deal, which where I live lets many eat for many years. > IMO Zend must exist and this is only possible by selling its products. I only agree with the first part. It is not true that selling products is the only viable way for them to survive. Your MySQL example is good because they have been leaving from consulting, training and certification. > If the company we work for has the money to buy Zend Accelerator licenses > why not do that instead of using That is your decision. Zend people have publically declared that they are targetting high-end customers. Their pricing obviously rules out the majority of us for which their prices are simply unaffordable, especially if you have to pay them over and over again if you want to use them every year. Since we are not idiots, if we have Open Source solutions that solve our problem, why do you think that paying those fortunes to Zend would be a better idea? I think their business model makes sense to make their company viable, but that should be at the expense of those that can't afford their prices. Let those that believe that expensive software is a better solution from them then Open Source, to make Zend company viable. Also, Zend uses a subscription based licensing which is what Microsoft is shifting their licenses too. I am not saying that is wrong, I just say that it is not acceptable for most of us to stay in the dependence of Zend to keep our software running every year. If you agree with the licensing, it is your problem. > other Open Source accelerators. I just want the people from Zend to continue > their tremendous work and > we will have PHP5 and PHP6 and so on otherwise start learning ASP or JSP. If you ask me, I see very little point in what you say. You just made it sound as if Zend people are the only ones working on the development of PHP. The way I see it PHP lacks mostly of extensions that address real world problems of many people like: interfacing with Web services via SOAP, compiling PHP scripts to protect so we can generate closed source standalone executables, multi-threading support, generating GUI applications, interfacing with the user management and authentication system, etc.. Zend people are not working on anything like this as they don't agree it is important for PHP or for their business that is all that matters to them. As a matter of fact the only thing that Zend people have been working on PHP itself is Zend engine 2. Last time that I looked, Zend engine 2 is mostly a thing that was developed to make PHP more like Java. If I wanted that, I would probably be using Java instead. I am afraid that is only helping to remember more and more users to switch to Java. > My 2 cents. Actually that should be worth many times USD $3,000... for Zend of course. :-) -- Regards, Manuel Lemos -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
> >>>So... > >>>Is this equivalent to Zend Encoder? > >> > >>Not exactly, but in some aspects it is/will be better like the ability > >>to generate executable standalone PHP programs that you can distribute > >>independently. There is also the question of the price that for Zend > >>Encoder is ridiculously expensive. > >> The people for Zend have to eat to live. People, if there is no Zend there is no core for PHP. This is the same as with MySQL. MySQL is free under GPL but has no subselects because the companies that has commercial licenses didn't wanted that - Monty has to eat and he codes other features. IMO Zend must exist and this is only possible by selling its products. If the company we work for has the money to buy Zend Accelerator licenses why not do that instead of using other Open Source accelerators. I just want the people from Zend to continue their tremendous work and we will have PHP5 and PHP6 and so on otherwise start learning ASP or JSP. My 2 cents. Regards, Andrey -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
Hello, On 08/02/2002 02:39 PM, Randy Johnson wrote: > Does the bcompiler below improve performance? > > make scripts run faster? Definetly YES, because you do not need compile the scripts before each execution as they are already executed. Think about the speedup more or less like you were using Zend Cache, except that you do not need to pay a fortune to use it! :-) Regards, Manuel Lemos > > anybody have a testimonials on it's use?? > > > Thanks, > > Randy > - Original Message - > From: "Manuel Lemos" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 9:14 PM > Subject: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding > > > >>Hello, >> >>On 08/01/2002 01:58 PM, Yc Nyon wrote: >> >>>Is there any method to encrypt PHP files. >> >>Use bcompiler which is free and is part of PEAR/PECL official PHP >>extensions repository: >> >>http://pear.php.net/package-info.php?pacid=95 >> >>-- >> >>Regards, >>Manuel Lemos >> >> >>-- >>PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) >>To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php >> > > > -- Regards, Manuel Lemos -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding
Does the bcompiler below improve performance? make scripts run faster? anybody have a testimonials on it's use?? Thanks, Randy - Original Message - From: "Manuel Lemos" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 9:14 PM Subject: [PHP] Re: Protect PHP coding > Hello, > > On 08/01/2002 01:58 PM, Yc Nyon wrote: > > Is there any method to encrypt PHP files. > > Use bcompiler which is free and is part of PEAR/PECL official PHP > extensions repository: > > http://pear.php.net/package-info.php?pacid=95 > > -- > > Regards, > Manuel Lemos > > > -- > PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php > -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
